Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Sessions => Topic started by: TallDude on September 23, 2018, 09:47:35 AM
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I went out for a quick afternoon paddle yesterday and the wind was up. Probably 15 mph sustained and capping with good size ground swell mixed in. I got caught up in the rare (for us around here) downwind bliss on my 18 x 25 Hobie unlimited. Everything was in the south direction and lined up. About a mile out of the harbor, I remembered I was supposed to meet some people for dinner. I decided to turn around and head back. Nothing doing..... My board was so weather-vaned I could get to turn at all. I tried stopping and reverse paddling. I actually paddled straight backwards. The board said nothing doing again. I tried the big gradual circle turn. Hard right paddle and head towards the shore. That wasn't working either. The capping side chop once I got perpendicular to the wind and swell was brutal on my 25" wide board.
Now I'm a few miles from the harbor and time was not on my side. I dropped to my knees and tried all the same stuff. Not working. So I laid down and scooted up on to the nose of my board. I Dropped my arms into the water and tried putting on the brakes. The tail started coming around because I was so far forward. Success! I was finally headed into the wind and towards the harbor. I stood up and just ground it out at about 2-3 mph all the way back. It ended up being just under 5 miles and my little afternoon cruise ended up taking me 2 hours.
Too bad I didn't have my phone, I could continued the DW and had some pick me up.
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As you discovered, it’s just a matter of being able to get forward enough. I have had my custom UL board made with this in mind - to make sure I can stand and comfortably paddle a loooong way in front of the handle if I need to. The wind here might not drop beneath 15 knots for weeks on end, so it really focusses your mind on this issue. Rudders don’t help when it gets to that stage. The only thing is to get forward, lift the tail a bit and move the pivot point of the board (which is you) so that it has changed sufficiently that the board will turn into the wind. Whenever I see a board now that has a cockpit that hardly extends beyond the handle, I keep on walking...
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I can turn around and paddle the other way waiting for friends in 35+ wind. Rudder. I'm sure I could eventually do what you were doing, but I like rudders on unlimiteds. I have two that don't have them. I consider them flatwater or downbreeze boards.
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I deal with high winds (25+) coming from unexpected directions quite often. The one thing
I always carry with me is the Abuelo ventral (Aercore ventral), I can paddle into the wind or
keep same trajectory in cross-wind just by pushing on the rail, thus maintaining optimal trim
for the board and maximize on my paddling effort.
When conditions turn on us like that, the Bullets with the rudders can't keep up.
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THE DAGGER BOARD OPTION IS THE SOLUTION :)
If you want to turn easier upwind, then a daggerboard positioned ahead your feet helps a lot, espetially if a rudder is fitted ( you move pivot point ahead)
my 18' is equipped with a rudder and 2 daggerboard cases: one abt 1' head feet, 1 abt 1,5 ' ahead rudder. generally on DW conditions I do not use daggerboard, excepted in very choppy conditions i put it just ahead of rudder.
if using a daggerboard with a fixed fin, board will mike to drive straight, if it's use with a rudder, it turns unreal. simple hydrodynamics.
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efect when turning with a rudder and a fore daggerboard...
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I deal with high winds (25+) coming from unexpected directions quite often. The one thing
I always carry with me is the Abuelo ventral (Aercore ventral), I can paddle into the wind or
keep same trajectory in cross-wind just by pushing on the rail, thus maintaining optimal trim
for the board and maximize on my paddling effort.
When conditions turn on us like that, the Bullets with the rudders can't keep up.
and your ventral becomes a problem when downwinding... I DO not understand why we don't see more removable daggerboard/centreboards... that was fitted on american boats in mid 19th century... and on allwindsurfboards/ that's the only good solution sorry I do not want be agressive but ventral fin idea is a long way back...
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I did a front rudder once years ago for just that reason--put it just behind the beginning of the rocker line. I made it so I could steer it manually (paddle-ually?) with the vane pushed down, or let the wind set it with a wind vane. It went upwind like magic, holding any course. It felt like it had a motor. Downwind, however, it was like a truck with half a turn of worn out steering. Wandered all over the place with the vane popping loose at random times and turning the board sharply in some random direction. Rod Parmenter, who has the agility and balance of a monkey tried it downwinding and fell in about 50 times. I loved watching that. We finally stopped and pulled it out or he'd probably still be trying to finish the run.
Pierre, Mark Raaphorst did a beautiful switchblade ventral fin that he mounted far enough back that it was more like a daggerboard. Most of the Maui crew tried it, and the consensus was "very cool, and useful if you want to go upwind. But I pretty much never want to go upwind."
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and your ventral becomes a problem when downwinding... I DO not understand why we don't see more removable daggerboard/centreboards...
The first reason I would prefer a ventral over a daggerboard is drag! The second one,
I could easily replicate the daggerboard effect just by sticking my blade in the water
upfront by the rail like Jeremy Riggs does.
My ventral, unlike the usual ventral, has its core cutout. That makes all the difference
and separates it from other attempts done by the likes of Mark. The difference is that
this fin is not a passive and I do have control over its behavior to a certain degree so
it won't randomly go in certain direction. The placement here is key and most failed
attempts i've seen was due to placing it too upfront which makes it too reactive.
Mark actually wanted to install his ventral steering on my custom board. I sent the specs
to Larry Allison, he told me it won't work: "The placement is all wrong and the template
will also creates issues". Just like me though, he really liked the mechanism which was brilliant.
While my cutout ventral is not great for most downwind conditions, it is really good in
lined-up conditions when turning on a whim is not essential. Just like Bill describes it,
It feels like you have motor, but once you chose direction, the fin will take you till the end
of the glide. It took someone very skillful like Jeremy Riggs, who tested it, to change direction
mid-glide. it will also save your ass if the wind has a lot of direction from the side.
I can remove it or add it mid ride anyway since it's a click-it fin, which I did many
times and it saved my ass couple of times as well.
I wish I had this fin for the Carolina Cup race, would have made huge difference, specifically in
the windy sections and sections with considerable amount of wake. And don't even think
about using daggerboard as you will collect pebbles in all the shallow sections ;)
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https://vimeo.com/181938609
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https://vimeo.com/89657512
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and your ventral becomes a problem when downwinding... I DO not understand why we don't see more removable daggerboard/centreboards..
Biggest enigma of the 21th century :)
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The first reason I would prefer a ventral over a daggerboard is drag!
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Up to you but I don't see anydrag issue with drag as it's easy to stick lips which close it... it's less drag than empty fink, and ca be remover by pulling it out from deck.( or someot them with paddle blade)
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I can remove it or add it mid ride anyway since it's a click-it fin, which I did many
times and it saved my ass couple of times as well.
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Can you remove it without put your board upside down? a daggerboard takes couple seconds!
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And don't even think
about using daggerboard as you will collect pebbles in all the shallow sections ;)
And unless you don't put your board in the sand, pebbles, gravel, etc,, there is no such issue... hte only issue is a bit more complicated construction and additional weight, but not so much more as afin box. Honestly, for having used it for 8 years, I do not find any negative issue.../ easy balance when you need, added stability, reduced fatigue, easy to put on and remove... on a choppy side-wind race leg it can make all the difference . It board is equipped with rudder, turning ability is greatly improved, etc, etc...
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Honestly, for having used it for 8 years, I do not find any negative issue.../ easy balance when you need, added stability, reduced fatigue, easy to put on and remove... on a choppy side-wind race leg it can make all the difference . It board is equipped with rudder, turning ability is greatly improved, etc, etc...
Couldn't agree more! These are the exact reasons I almost always use the ventral.
The benefits I see over the daggerboard solution is:
1. Active steering (subtle but effective)
2. Less drag
3. Lighter
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I am still not convinced... but I should try.
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https://vimeo.com/181938609
I’ve rarely seen a less convincing video. That arrangement is not needed for those conditions, and any problem being encountered is likely due to a combination of poor standing position, the wrong board for the conditions and application, and poor paddle technique.
Keep it simple IMO: get a board designed to handle the conditions you paddle in, and learn how to paddle it when the going gets rough.
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@area10
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That arrangement is not needed for those conditions, and any problem being encountered is likely due to a combination of poor standing position, the wrong board for the conditions and application, and poor paddle technique. unquote
I fully believe and agree that you might be a super-expert paddler ( I know some of them like that ex C-ist as well)
now I may humbly pretend: why not make things easy ? i do not pretend to be a super paddler but I succeeded to make a podium (kahuna cat) at france championsihips... and I still promote the way to make things easy. i agree that why to turn a 14' or UL side or against wind when you may go only downwind? it may happen that you need! why to be stable sidewinds? it helps! why to step more ahead and have a lateral Canoe-style paddle stance when, if you can arrange wind lateral force apply same as hull+appendage, and paddle easier with optimal balance? , when you need?
why to be unsafe when such piece of wood and/or fibreglass gives you additional safety it you need to turn upwind?
why to have a board designed for sidewind when you can hust have an appendage designed to improve accessibility in such conditions?
Olivier's"Paddllespot" board on the video is a 17'6'' (about) elliptical section shape which works great in flat water and light downbreezers it's unreal, narly PERFECT shape it just misses stability side winds/chop. the daggerboard transfprm it in anaccessible tool. why to say it's useless?
I confess he should fit a rudder on the machine, then it becomes a awesome tool...
quote Keep it simple IMO: get a board designed to handle the conditions you paddle in, and learn how to paddle it when the going gets rough.unquote
In such case why to put daggerboard on sailng boats, huh??!! suggest only fixed keels and rudders! daggerboards have been invented in many different places, for performance but also safety.. americans had been very advanced in boat design since early 1800's, I guess not all turn idiot now... okayI agree toda's challengeis foiling but not only :P :D
it reminds me a rough D'winder couple years ago departure was sidewinds about 1 mile before the run, me and my tippy board semi-rounded section shape but with a removable daggerboard,my friend' same level as me but on a more accessible board) needed to kneel while I was standing with that wind, chop and backwash abeam, and paddling times the left, times on the right!... once lined on the run, i just removed daggerboard, and there starts the fun, without fatigue before... WHO got the best board? ME because I got faster either sidewinds or downwind, thanks to that 28" piece of wood!
Elitism is NOT the solution for anyone, after that ... Up 2U :)
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I don't see a perfect setup for every condition. Years ago I was given an Infinity 16' with a front steering fin to test out. I worked on it with Steve Boehne building the reverse tiller arm. It was placed about 4' forward of center. The fin was about 5" tall and 5" deep with a center pivot. When it was locked in the straight position, it did track just like you'd expect with a dagger board, which was nice in side wind conditions. It would turn the board 180 deg quick even in strong wind. Almost too quick. It actually threw me a few times, before I learned to just barely steer it. Just a little was all it needed. The problem was when going into the wind a bigger chop / swell. The nose would go air born off the top of a swell and sometimes the next face was coming from a different angle. When the board landed, the fin would catch on an off angle and just throw you. After battling with it for 30 minutes or so the steering mechanism couldn't take the beating and started to come apart. Maybe the fin was too big? I never DW'd it, but it did work well for our average windy conditions. Steve tried surfing it and he ended up hitting a surfer he knew :-[ Not good. He sold it and never made another one.
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Reminds me of the good ol' days windsurfing when we'd have [miraculously - holding the sail with one hand] yank the daggerboard and you'd be flying downwind; a water sprout squirting out the daggerboard-well, daggerboard hooked over your elbow, hitting alternatively the waves and your head.
Only the coolest survived.
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I’ve rarely seen a less convincing video. That arrangement is not needed for those conditions, and any problem being encountered is likely due to a combination of poor standing position, the wrong board for the conditions and application, and poor paddle technique.
Aha :) Thanks for the laugh Area 10
The videos just show how the system is made and works, it's obviously not needed for those conditions, I'll ask the photograph to come back with 50 knots of wind :)
And thanks for the poor paddle technique. I'd love to see you paddling with 30 knots crosswind on a 18'. I've never met a guy doing it on ANY board and not complaining :) But everyone here in France has a poor paddle technique I guess :-)
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"Mark Raaphorst did a beautiful switchblade ventral fin that he mounted far enough back that it was more like a daggerboard. Most of the Maui crew tried it, and the consensus was "very cool, and useful if you want to go upwind."
Hmm? Too bad the design did not gain much traction. That might be useful for our quick 2 mile upwind DW runs we often do around here. Even on a 14V2.
The problem we have is the constant side push of the nose as you pound upwind. Wind and wave action even at 10 kts forces you to compensate for heading changes. That slows down progress upwind a lot. So would be very interesting to see how much that switchblade ventral actually would help out. Sounds like it worked quite well upwind. Turning DW -> moving it to the closed position makes complete sense for quick turning and minimal drag.
So can appreciate the daggerboard approach noted. Obviously can get by without - as have been doing that for years - but why not use it if it works and is available? Keeping a straighter line upwind with less effort seems to make a lot of sense. That solution seemed pretty reasonable -> especially for a 17 or 18 UL.
As noted the best UL paddled AW so far was that 17'11 One. Something like the switchblade solution would no doubt help progress upwind. But even then the steering was way more responsive than the 17'4 Bullet. Could barely make any progress upwind crosswind in the Bullet in just a paltry 15 kts. Just got pushed sideways. Whereas others on 14s pounded away no problem. Is a real problem.
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it reminds me a rough D'winder couple years ago departure was sidewinds about 1 mile before the run, me and my tippy board semi-rounded section shape but with a removable daggerboard,my friend' same level as me but on a more accessible board) needed to kneel while I was standing with that wind, chop and backwash abeam, and paddling times the left, times on the right!... once lined on the run, i just removed daggerboard, and there starts the fun, without fatigue before... WHO got the best board? ME because I got faster either sidewinds or downwind, thanks to that 28" piece of wood!
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Yes. Can't disagree with that.
But if you can do it simple...
This...
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Keep it simple IMO: get a board designed to handle the conditions you paddle in, and learn how to paddle it when the going gets rough.
Trumps that.
I do love the ability to do more with less in a sport.
... especially if it is lighter.
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It was placed about 4' forward of center. The fin was about 5" tall and 5" deep with a center pivot.
Sounds like a classic case of wrong placement, wrong template. When I was bouncing that idea,
I was using the small ventral (2" deep with 9" base ) as a starting point.
The first 3" of the rudder are fixed right in the fin box, and the pivot point sit right behind it
breaking the fin right at the thickest part. also serving as a weed deflector. Suggested placement
at 18" in front of the standing area.
Tiller arm connected directly to the fin with no more than 1/4 of and inch movement side to side,
due to torque. Never got around to produce it as the board works very well as is with a more
simplistic approach of the cutout ventral, but I might do it at some point
See attached rough sketch
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Hmm? Too bad the design did not gain much traction. That might be useful for our quick 2 mile upwind DW runs we often do around here. Even on a 14V2.
Just try this... a US box, a few drops of Sikaflex (easily removable), a small fin...
And enjoy the difference... I did that in 2013. The gain was so obvious, even on a 12'6, that two days later I was drilling my board...
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... I did that in 2013. The gain was so obvious, even on a 12'6, that two days later I was drilling my board...
Hmm very interesting. Good to see a big benefit on shorter length boards as well. But would like to see what Mark actually designed and fabricated as his ventral "switchblade" solution. Would suspect that he could implement that into any SIC board with an optimized placement if requested.
But doubt that we will cut up any boards we have. As they do pretty much exactly what we expect from them as designed. All are still in pretty much like new condition. But if we had a cheap extra board -> would def "experiment".
Sounds like your daggerboard is working out well for your use. So no need to argue with that. Personally if we could have only one board -> would go with that pintail 17'11 One at 24 or 25 wide. The 25 was very stable so maybe the 24 would be better suited with lower drag. Steering worked fantastic and board scooted along very efficiently. With a SIC "switchblade" and its easy to turn rudder -> that board could handle most AW conditions thrown this way. ;)
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Reminds me of the good ol' days windsurfing when we'd have [miraculously - holding the sail with one hand] yank the daggerboard and you'd be flying downwind; a water sprout squirting out the daggerboard-well, daggerboard hooked over your elbow, hitting alternatively the waves and your head.
Only the coolest survived.
I put tape as lips below the well.before result was same while down winding, except my well was much smaller.
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Very cool. Sounds like an 18' board is a tough paddler. against all that wind and swell. I always want to bring my phone too.