Standup Zone Forum
General => Random => Topic started by: linter on September 22, 2018, 06:24:54 AM
-
as the subject line says ... meanwhile, if you don't know what it is:
https://www.webmd.com/depression/features/what-does-ketamine-do-your-brain?ecd=soc_fb_160205_feature_ketamine#1
https://psychedelictimes.com/ketamine/a-dosing-guide-for-using-ketamine-for-psychedelic-therapy/
three days ago, i had the last of six treatments -- 3 during one week, skipped a week, three the next week, mtw.
i suffer from treatment resistant depression and c/ptsd (or just ptsd, if you prefer). i've done all kinds of therapy over the years and none has made major dents in my wayward psyche (and c.ptsd is widely thought to be untreatable and unfixable). enter ketamine, the most widely used anesthetic in the world and, when used in low doses, one of the most promising drugs for depression ever.
and i've got to say i've never experienced anything like it. i'm not a believer in universal oneness but i became a believer during a few of my trips to the outer reaches, where i just floated in what i've come to call the crimson universal bubble and cathedral. i wasn't in the room anymore. i was somewhere else entirely. i wouldn't call it blissful. more like a version of peaceful. i wasn't aware of anything other than that i no longer had boundaries. etc etc. i recorded my sessions and in your life you've never heard so many wows and oh gees. i was hoping for something profound to come out of my mouth but twasn't happening.
the experience lasts 40 minutes. during my first ones, time seemed to collapse in on itself, such that the trip seemed woefully short. the latest several, however, headed in the opposite direction. the last one especially expanded, by years and decades, it seemed.
the trip, wonderful tho it is, isn't the point of k therapy. it's like a delivery method for what's supposed to happen in the days and weeks following. in my case, it's been: a massive reduction in binary black and while thinking, fewer cataclysmic thoughts, much less anxiety, a much improved ability to sit with things that would normally freak me out and send me into hyper flight mode. during the week off period, i had days where i was happy all day, which i've never experienced before. and i didn't even know i was happy until somebody pointed out how different i was, and then i thought, oh yeah, happy, huh, go figure.
anyway, anyone else had any experience with the stuff?
the effect can last for a few weeks up to a few months, after which you need a single-session booster to get you back on track. we'll see. lastly, it's not a magic bullet. the bad stuff i've got is still there but the life-wrecking symptoms surrounding it have been altered, i think, to a surprising degree. and i hope it stays that way. as i said, we'll see.
oh. the usual dose for most people is .50mg/kg. in my case, i couldn't let go until it was upped to 1.7mg/kg. that's considered a high dose, which supposedly leads to "ego dissolution experiences," which is what I guess i experienced and which sounds about right. damn it was interesting.
-
Glad you're finding something that works for you
-
Man, that’s great to hear. I’ve, thankfully, never suffered from depression but have several close friends who do.
One tried PEMF and got some relief but it was sadly short lived. That works for many but she was in the minority unaffected long term.
Ketamine sounds promising. Like the MDMA experiments on PTSD. Hope this helps brother. Are you coming west this year?
Unrelated I’ve been wanting to do a float tank as I’ve had some friends recently have great experiences with that too.
-
Linter, great to see you post here again....and glad to read of this treatment promise! I think of our nose riding discussions and desire often and continue to think of my B&B as my #1. Can't thank you enough for turning me on to such as amazing SUP!
Good luck moving forward and hope all continues to improve!
Best,
-
Great topic.
I haven't tried Ketamine and only recently started researching it. I have deep seated depression and PTSD leftover from my childhood that has persisted for most of my life. I'm fairly happy as an adult but the depression still lingers in my subconscious which in some ways limits my drive and motivation.
Another substance, Psilocybin has had a tremendous positive affect on my well being. It helped me learn to let go of the past and live more in the moment. It also opened a doorway that enabled me to stop taking alcohol which was a lifelong struggle for me. I owe a debt of gratitude to this molecule.
I'm a full believer that psychedelics when used properly and therapeutically can help society overcome a myriad of problems or help those who just want to promote a positive change in their lives. For many, one experience is all it takes to see life from a totally new perspective and dramatically improve their state of mind.
Thanks to an organization called MAPS, MDMA will soon be a USDA approved therapeutic medicine for PTSD. Their website has tons of useful info on psychedelics and the research that is being done including Ketamine.
https://maps.org/
https://maps.org/news/bulletin/articles/410-bulletin-winter-2016/6470-ketamine-a-transformational-catalyst
-
First of all sorry to hear of depression in anyone, incl you guys. It runs in my family a bit, and I have deep respect for the seriousness and challenge of this ailment.
Likely I have been self medicating much of my life with “greenery”. Not sure if I am treating depression anger ptsd or whatever, but it seems to improve my state of mind and/or relax me, curd the asshole in me, with no obvious ill effects. I won’t consume before or during work, but beyond then, often.
Psychedelics frighten me based on seeing bad experiences among friends back in my youth. A few who had existing psych issues had seriously bad trips on LSD and other drugs—one, an admittedly odd but high-functioning HS student, has been in and out of mental hospitals since then, and his issues were clearly connected to frequent hallucinogen use. So I am very cautious re any use of these substances in ill people, or any people for that matter. I would be frightened if a young family member engaged this type of treatment. And I have a few young ones with depression. They take SSRI’s and manage pretty well.
OTOH, if carefully administered to best scientific standard in very safe medically supported environment, after serious research and study, I could sign on. Not sure that level of care with these substances is available. And I totally get that these substances have been subject to serious propagandizing and have had little chance to be researched thoroughly, given politicization. And linter/badger, I trust the value of your judgements and experience, so I will keep an open mind.
And thanks for the open up, guys. So important that we be comfortable speaking about something that is really quite common, dealt with by many, and shd not prompt shame. I still hear people say “wait, she’s ‘depressed’? Don’t you mean ‘lazy’?”. Idiots.
Take care. Be well.
Oh and I am on the porch while my relative is inside in state of hospice after fighting stage 4 melanoma for 17 months. Supposedly hallucinogens have been found to be very helpful for the terminally ill, as they negotiate the emotional effects of impending death. Again researched and admin’ed properly, might be something there. My relative hasn’t gone there, and she graciously declined my herbal offerings. She has advanced LMD and requires constant horse loads of fentanyl and various other opioids. Thk God they are available for her. Lovely human. Sad.
-
Eastbound I totally agree. Some people should never touch psychedelics, at least not without a doctors approval. They affect everyone differently. These aren't party drugs. They should not be used for getting high. Those who take them with the wrong intention sometimes pay the price.
.
-
This is a great subject that is seeing the light of day after years of experimenting kind of in the dark, by the medical industry, and a bit more in the light by healthy tech workers using micro dosing LSD on the job, to enhance productivity, it works.
The people who had bad trips back in the day, one, were probably predisposed to not being able to handle it in the first place, mentally speaking, and two, were taking party sized doses, a far cry from micro dosing that's used today by professionals for treatment.
I can easily see ketamine, psilocybin, and small doses of LSD becoming a standard for treatment of mental issues in the very near future, as well as for hospice care.
As a former frequent user of those psychedelics (never had a bad trip), and still in communication with several of my "travel" partners, from back in the late 60's early 70's, we've been following this story line for quite awhile, and we all agree. We also share the answer to the question of what took them so long?
Sergeant Joe Friday and Art Linkletter.
-
Weasel, thanks for addressing the fear. I don’t really drink and have never tried anything harder than pot. I don’t use that more than once a decade either lol but everyone should do some googling about the real clinical work that’s being done, especially for combat vets, with MDMA and other similar drugs. As you said, Sgt. Friday and the culture of fear (and yes, people taking huge doses and having issues) have left a stigma on these drugs. Meanwhile Oxy is given out and taken without a care and a recent study found that alcohol is responsible for 1 in 20 deaths worldwide.
I hope we can start to treat these issues. Men in America are hurting. We used young men to fight our wars, broke them, and then turned them loose to figure it out. We have to do better.
Can’t thank you enough Linter for bringing this up. I’m going to speak to some friends in the field to see if I can find you anyone to talk to.
-
I have bouts of depression and ancxiety, and recently tried microdosing LSD based on a recommendation from a friend who works in tech. Surprisingly, I found the results to be pretty similar to the anti-depressant I'd recently stopped taking. Ketamine sounds even more promising. Thanks for sharing.
-
I've micro dosed psilocybin with very good results.
I wish I had a source for LSD. I haven't seen that since the early eighties. You have to be careful with chemicals these days. I've read that there is fake impostor acid being distributed now that can be really bad for you in higher doses and would just not have any positive affects in micro doses. Evil no good bums out for a buck.
Amazon sells LSD test kits. https://www.amazon.com/NIK-Drug-Test-Kit-LSD/dp/B002ATUECS
-
Synchronicity...….I never thought I'd be talking about anxiety and depression with anyone. I'd never experienced it first hand, not even second hand....not that I know of.
Enter a couple years of my vertigo getting worse. I started waking up in the middle of the night from nightmares of falling...only the nightmare stayed. I'd had those dreams/nightmares off and on for years but this was the 1st time that the fear wouldn't go away when I woke up. I had no idea WTF was going on....cold stinking sweat, my mind racing, felt like death or worse was imminent. They got more frequent and worse....I ignored it. Until I couldn't....The vertigo also kills sleep. It was the combination of feeling like I was going nuts, insane exhaustion, difficulty driving, yada, yada...that made me finally talk to my doc and employer about filing for disability. Then the feeling of worthlessness came on....it's taking a bit to get rid of it.
My doc also had me go see a therapist and prescribed Xanax. It's hard to believe this is me that is going through this. I was shocked to find the therapist helped....I've done everything I can to avoid the Xanax though I've had a few episodes since that required it. I also had to go see a new neurologist...who also had me go for a psyche evaluation to see if I have any cognitive/memory issues or what else might be going on. Final report not done but she told me she didn't see cognitive/memory problems (not sure I agree) but she did say I have anxiety and depression.....the anxiety I understood given the nightmares but I've never felt like I was what would be called depressed. This is all very new to me so I have no idea what to think of any of it. I do know that I am far more sympathetic to those suffering from anxiety....what an absolutely horrible feeling.....maybe the worst thing I've ever experienced. I'm still not sure I understand hat depression is but if it is at all similar I don't want to.
My thoughts are with all of you that have gone through this and continue to deal with....I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.
Weed has been my friend since I found it helped the headaches and nausea I get.....wish it helped the vertigo but no such luck. Very happy it is now legal here in MA. I've seen a big change in docs response when I tell them I'm using weed for the headaches, used to be they didn't want to hear it. Now it's not just acceptance but acknowledgement of it's effectiveness.
-
You're not alone Stoney. It used to be that not much could be done about depression and anxiety but things are starting to change.
My therapist prescribed me Xanax but it had no affect aside from making me almost fall asleep at the wheel a few times. I stopped taking it for that reason.
I used to love smoking weed in my teens and early 20's but as I got older I didn't enjoy it as much. Now on the rare occasions it's offered to me, it just puts me in a state of high anxiety and paranoia. My 40 year old nephew on the other hand was actually prescribed marijuana for his anxiety and he enjoys it very much.
.
-
Linter, This popped up this morning in one of my feeds...
https://www.statnews.com/2018/09/24/ketamine-clinics-severe-depression-treatment/?utm_source=STAT+Newsletters&utm_campaign=eb9cb17a16-MR_COPY_08&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8cab1d7961-eb9cb17a16-149647217
Sorry to hear you, Badger and Stoney have to endure this.
Jim
-
from what you write here, stones, you dont seem depressed--not that ive got any business diagnosing....
you are motivated to be quite active, you aren't socially isolated, and you dont seem overwhelmed by responsibilities and obligations--in fact, quite the opposite
do you get anxious on occasion? maybe, but that's different than depression--bad depression leaves a person unable to get out of bed in the morning---regardless of what's planned for the day.......whatever's going on, you seem to be "up and at 'em" with your days
interesting piece, wet---reinforces that we all need to be our own best advocates---might well be ketamine is an excellent anti-depressant, but with profiteers pushing it hard, makes me more suspicious---
gotta read---a lot---and judge for oneself
-
Linter, whenever I surf in Rhody, I ask about you.
For what it's worth, I always enjoy the time I get to spend with you!
Keep posting... you have a great way with words and make thoughtful contributions.
also... I hope those treatments never become street available (which they will)
they sound like a pleasant release, that many would chose on an all too regular basis.
They do sound perfect for end stage Alzheimer's.
When I used to regularly practice Transcendental Meditation, I would enter into similar timeless relaxation.
-
I tend to doubt the depression diagnosis myself.....I have been depressed but I don't think I have depression. I'm depressed because I'm being forced to retire and because it gets old feeling the way I do. But the only reason I might not want to get out of bed sometimes is because my head is exploding and the world is spinning. That does depress me but it's not caused by depression..if you know what I mean. I don't want a drug to change how I feel unless that feeling has no underlying cause and has gotten out of control....like the anxiety. I can't imagine what depression and anxiety combined running amok must feel like....no wonder it causes suicide in so many.
I really don't like taking any drugs. I'm being very careful with the Xanax....I have to have exhausted other means of getting away from the anxiety 1st before taking it but that ain't easy. It's SO overwhelming. I'd even like to stop using weed medicinally. I'm not much of a drinker, never have been. I smoked recreationally when I was younger and enjoyed it. I wish I could simply enjoy it occasionally now but any fun that comes from using greatly reduced when you have to use it.
rick...these drugs are already available on the streets...have been all along.
-
It's being a bit widely used considering the relatively recent use as anything but a club drug and euthanasia for pets. There are some concerns that it works the way it does is because it's acting as an opioid. That's probably not a concern for someone getting relief from the drug, but it might be a longer term issue. Worth examining the literature available anyway. I like this online magazine--they tend to cover interesting and timely issues with a scientific focus that's still reasonably light. Sort of like Quanta without the math. They recently had a couple of articles about Ketamines and depression. I can't find the second one. https://www.inverse.com/article/48484-is-ketamine-safe-and-effective
-
Looks interesting
https://www.gaia.com/lp/psychedelica/?utm_source=facebook+paid&utm_medium=cpm&utm_campaign=tr-psychedelica&utm_content=music&utm_term=dynamic-video&ch=tr
-
Oh man, worlds collide. Gaia is a client of mine and that title shows up in my demos all the time. Hilarious to see that after a long day of work.
All I can offer here is to not go it alone and don’t minimize any condition. Too many people out there suffering. That’s not to say over react or over medicate, but take care of yourselves and don’t use Dr. Internet.
Often people suffering from depression don’t show signs that we’d interpret as such and certainly not over text on the internet. Stay connected to those around you everyone.
-
for my close family members with depression, talk therapy has been immensely helpful--expensive! so the "industry" talks it down in favor of meds
and i am not anti-meds, i am med-resistant, in favor of talk therapy---sometimes both are indicated, but first, most important step, imho, is talk therapy
expensive! but money well spent, if youre talking about loved ones
-
I was truly blown away by how helpful just talking to someone is. I think we all tend to live inside ourselves thinking "I got this" a bit too long. I certainly did. My GP had me see someone. 3 sessions with her, 1 with my wife there. I was shocked at how it changed how I felt. It's not like I don't have people in my life to talk to. My wife is my best friend, my daughters are both kind and caring, my family is as supportive as you can get. But talking to her was different...not sure I can even explain how.
I also had an evaluation done on the order of my neurologist (I'm so @#$%ing sick of seeing doctor's.. >:( ) She was an absolute flake....my wife came with me to discuss memory and let her know what she had seen. My wife was rolling her eyes the whole time and after asked me WTF she was on. Really bizarre lady and I could tell that 1/2 the time she wasn't paying attention. But at least the test was just a standardized thing she couldn't mess up....at least I don't think she could. I know I didn't and still don't agree with her immediate reaction that there's no cognition/memory issue. I know there are memory issues....I don't feel any less intelligent, but I know I can't coordinate my mind anymore.
-
More ketamine info...
https://www.statnews.com/2018/10/11/ketamine-clinics-training-courses-pop-up/?utm_source=STAT+Newsletters&utm_campaign=7d5d23b9ac-MR_COPY_08&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8cab1d7961-7d5d23b9ac-149647217
Jim
-
Look up research having to do the use of psilocybin(mushrooms) for the treatment of depression, anxiety, PTSD and depression associated with terminal illness. I believe it originates from centers such as Imperial College, London, Tufts University and others I can not recall at this time. Success is off the charts when compared to present pharmaceutical regimens. Long term benefits from a single dose. I have personally seen it work wonders with many.
-
The Johns Hopkins Hospital in Maryland is doing a lot of psilocybin research.
There have also been a lot of new books out on the subject. A fairly recent one is the #1 best seller "How to change your mind" by Michael Pollan.
Everyone should read this book.
https://www.amazon.com/Change-Your-Mind-Consciousness-Transcendence/dp/1594204225
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whmnx_Cb5ts
-
Since it was mentioned (PTSD) ... I learned after digging, most people do not dream having taken a dose of THC/CBD before bed. I was always under the impression that prodigious dreaming was beneficial. Not my situation, but I gather people who have frequent night terrors or PTSD, however that's defined, really enjoy that bit of relief. I am skeptical of many of the claims for MM, but I can attest it's a dream killer.
Jim
-
CBD actually promotes dreaming. THC decreases REM but prolomgs deep sleep. The dreaming is reduced due to this. It does help with nightmares that come along with PTSD.
Thc and cbd are essentially antagonistic, this is why the ratio between the two are important when considering strains and oils.
Deep.sleep is better for recovery and when you are sick. Interrupting the sleep cycles is probably not a good thing long term.
Wim hof breath cycle and cold helped my ptsd more than anything. DMT and mushrooms in small.doses seems to have the widest range of positive effects.
We have receptors for cannabinoids in all.of our mammalian cells, id say its a crucial part of homeostasis. We produce our own dmt each night we sleep. Fungus is a major part of our biology as well. I personally see far more remedies coming from these natural pathways than anything Big Pharm has to offer
-
Well, GFN... If one is supposed to potentiate the other ...my experience (a study of one) is they may nullify. I am not interested in the 'high', so I have not been awake when it kicked in, so I don't know about that part, but I neither dreamed nor sensed analgesic relief. I also tried 14:1 tablets during the day, with a similar lack of effect.
If it helps folks with depression or PTSD the least bit, I am 100% for it. I just hope for their sake it is not mostly placebo.
Jim
-
Posted on Bookface, but I know nothing about it.