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General Category => Foil SUP => Topic started by: Piros on September 17, 2018, 09:59:49 PM

Title: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Piros on September 17, 2018, 09:59:49 PM
Shooting the pier on the new Fanatic . I've been testing this last few weeks , pretty wild foil to ride not really a beginner set up they do have a new wings on the way , with more more low speed pump and stability.  8) 

https://vimeo.com/289825523
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Piros on September 18, 2018, 01:03:43 AM
Sorry should have posted this in videos , could you move please admin.Thanks
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Bean on September 18, 2018, 11:31:24 AM
Piros - great vid. 

Is there a recomended rider weight/range for the Aero 1500?

https://youtu.be/yxOhHyeRyF8
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Bean on September 18, 2018, 11:34:52 AM
Should include this one on this thread too.  It's realy cool to see all the new foil stuff coming down the pike.

https://youtu.be/AAHlF-JfCgM
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Piros on September 18, 2018, 04:52:15 PM
The 1500 is a pretty decent sized foil so it would support guys in the low 200lb club. The new wing is a 2000 so pretty well anyone could ride that.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on September 18, 2018, 07:22:00 PM
I feel vindicated that my foil ideas of using thin and low aspect foils are now being manufactured and that they are faster and easier to ride.
  ĎMore manouverable and higher top speed.í
 Just as I said a few years ago.
 The other manufacturers will have to follow this design if they havenít got something similar in the lab already.
 
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Bean on September 18, 2018, 08:38:02 PM
The 1500 is a pretty decent sized foil so it would support guys in the low 200lb club. The new wing is a 2000 so pretty well anyone could ride that.

So the 1500 and 2000 refer to the area in square cm?  Pretty close (in area) to the GF Iwa and Maliko 200?
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Piros on September 19, 2018, 03:56:10 AM
Surfoils the Aero is very different Yes and itís a pretty wild foil to ride. Turns super hard but very twitchy definitely not easier to ride. Speed wise itís up there but not the same glide as the IWA .

Bean yes thatís a good comparison, the Aero although a Boomerang shape the area looks similar to the IWA so guessing the 2000 would be around the GF200 area .
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on September 19, 2018, 05:47:05 AM
Piros, youíre  never going to get the same Ďglideí from a flatter foil but the physical dimensions of the swept foil would show it to be not twitchy, if anything itís going to be slower to react and therefore more stable. Have you contacted the manufacturers to say that that their advertising is wrong  about it being more stable ? I canít believe anyone would make a foil thats very twitchy and harder to ride....?
The greater thickness of an old style foil creates lift out of nothing but also makes it very jumpy when sharp lift and power is tapped, as shown is many videos.
 Th advantage of a swept/ low aspect foil is that it doesnít have the same wide range of lift but itís more reliable in more stable energy positions on a wave. I think the Fanatic has found the balance but makers will progress the design to find even more stable designs to bring in a wider market for their products.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Piros on September 19, 2018, 12:05:19 PM
Surffoils I rode over 100 waves on that foil and yes I gave a full detailed review to Fanatic for Sky & his R&D team. Thatís what I do test foils. The Aero is an advanced foil and yes itís super twitchy and a handful to control but it is heaps of fun to ride. The wing flex in turns is something else making it carve hard but at the same time making it hard to transfer from heel side to toe side you get caught in the turn. Jump on it and give a go and youíll see what I mean.

Fanatic are definitely onto something thatís for sure and yes agree smaller higher aspect wings will be more common place.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on September 19, 2018, 01:11:16 PM
Thanks for that Piros. What a great job testing foils !
Looking forward to new designs like everyone.
I can see from the design that with the swept tips are going to make it slower turning from side to side becuase the further you sweep them back the more stable they are but you can alter that by bringing the overall width in.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Bean on September 19, 2018, 01:16:39 PM
Piros, as a virtual beginner at 210 lbs and focused more toward slower SUP/surf, I'm looking forward to hearing more about the Aero 2000 as it rolls out.  Do you know if FAnatic will be ofering different mast lenghts?
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Piros on September 19, 2018, 07:09:08 PM
Surffoils I forgot to add the Aero is amazing on late take off's you feel very safe and you can ride it full height comfortably without breaching , it handles speed very well where other designs will blow out near the top end.

Bean yes the 2000 will have a thicker leading edge so and more user friendly , this is from Fanatic in response to my review on the 1500.

" Iím not too stressed that this foil is quite advanced as we have a 2000 cm2 coming with a much thicker foil to run at low speed  / pump / more stable"

So yes 2000 will suit you better .The foil comes with a 750mm mast which I personally think is a bit too long , they already produce a 600mm mast with their existing foils (which fit the Aero BTW) so I suggested to Fanatic to use the 600 as a stock mast and keep the 750 as an option. For me personally I think overall versatile mast length is best at 630 to 650 IMHO for surfing but for DWer's go long..... 750 to 850.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on September 19, 2018, 11:14:56 PM
Piros, Iím stoked to see the Fanatic foil, Iím familiar with how design affects speed and lift, a flatter foil wonít have the exponential lift at higher speeds like the standard foils and with more lift coming from the foils AOA itís a more stable ride. The swept tips will give more lift during turns than a straight foil, the sweep will also reduce ventilation.
If surfers can give up the Pump, a much shorter mast gives a more responsive and surfboard feel. Iím riding about 8Ē so the hull is just 4 or 5 off the water.
 
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: surfcowboy on September 20, 2018, 07:36:29 PM
That thinner profile would be way easier to model out of a sheet of ply.

That may have to be my next diy test.

Love to see the progression. Have to mention that if you take the tail off of this itís damn close to what surffoils has done in the past. Yíall remember all the arguments about flat foils not lifting? Apparently you donít need an inch and a half of profile to get lift. Surface area can contribute as well.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on September 21, 2018, 02:19:45 AM
Hi SCB, itís a great testament to the foil industry that they are willing to search for innovation that progresses the riders experience.
 Hereís my version of the swept single from 2009.
 Lift comes from both the Ďfoil of the foilí and the surface area , itís a sliding scale depending on speed, AOA and wave shape.
 Iím on FB with constant innovation and new ideas for foils.
 No products to sell but I am happy to give away my knowledge.
 
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Beasho on September 21, 2018, 06:32:46 AM
I feel vindicated that my foil ideas of using thin and low aspect foils are now being manufactured and that they are faster and easier to ride.
  ĎMore manouverable and higher top speed.í
 Just as I said a few years ago.
 The other manufacturers will have to follow this design if they havenít got something similar in the lab already.

OMG!

SURFOILS - I am getting that tingly Spidey Sense that I get when I see something totally new but my gut just knows that it is RIGHT ON THE MONEY!

This could be the solution to 'our' big wave foiling dilemma.  The current foils get overwhelmed too quickly at speed.  This 'Thing' could be adapted to take the tail off as well. 

Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Beasho on September 21, 2018, 06:51:22 AM
My kids were even calling me a Kook when I did this test with No-Tailwing. 

Something still feels 'off' when it comes to the tailwing.  I know it works and helps with low-speed flight.  But by my calculations it is adding 15% to drag because of the DOWN FORCE it imparts on the fuselage.  When going over 17 mph the big tails with Cessna style wings become unmanageable.

The SWEPT WING ADDRESSES THIS


This setup also felt very twitchy, probably difficult to ride in the waves BUT . . . oh yeah I only spent 10 minutes trying.  As with Piros it may take time to learn to fly these things.  Just like little kids don't get to hop on a short-board their first day of surfing and start ripping like Kelly Slater.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpTwOYx0Lho
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Beasho on September 21, 2018, 06:59:30 AM
The GoFoil design has changed VERY LITTLE since Kai first flew on an ELONGATED DOWNWIND board.

There was in incredible cantilevered weight in the form of 10 Feet of Nose. Without the huge downforce on the tail he may never have flown.

Since then the 'designers' just made bigger wings. There was little attention paid to the physics of what was going on underwater for the tailwing. Empirically they worked in small to medium sized waves. Anyone who has ever tried to take off on a steep 8 to 10 foot +++ face knows that the current configuration is compromised. The overwhelming front foot pressure is barely controllable I call it "Over-Foiling."

The dream is to pump up onto a non-breaking 15+ foot face and then race down the line, away from the death zone, flying free.

The Swept Wing MAY Solve Deliver the DREAM!!!!!!

Here is the video of Kai's progression.

Have we been Putting Race Car bodies on Cadillac chassis?

https://youtu.be/h7XupqFOFSg
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Bean on September 21, 2018, 08:02:21 AM
Surfoils, that's uncanny for sure. 
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: PonoBill on September 21, 2018, 08:11:08 AM
Fundamental to the design of anything is to build on what currently works. Fundamental to marketing is things that look radically different from currently successful products won't compete well. Both factors work to limit innovation. It's the major reason why big monopolies or semi-monopolies are rarely innovative. Anything as expensive as a team needs to have a high likelihood of success. Someone working alone, like SurfFoils, has the luxury of doing whatever he damned well pleases.

Case in point, I'm still sorely tempted to build the foil system I designed. But it's been a ridiculously busy summer, building my ridiculous motorhome project--and it ain't done. I doubt I can do much in Maui except play, it's just too cumbersome. Maybe next summer will work.

There is a guy on Maui that built a reasonably useful swept wing foil with no tail. I'll keep an eye out for him this year and perhaps work some with him. The drag of the stabilizer is dynamic. If you have to push the foil around to control it I suspect it's a lot more than 15%. That's perhaps a good figure for dragging the foil in a stable attitude, but it's like measuring rudder drag with the rudder aiming straight ahead. In many cases the drag more than triples when the rudder is actuated to cause a turn. Do a buoy turn in an OC1 and you get an instant understanding of rudder drag. It's huge.

The stabilizer is doing the same thing, only in the vertical plane. All of this stuff is why aeronautical engineers spent all that time trying to build flying wings with no or fixed rudders--much more efficient, and much less stable. It gets a lot more important in water, with 1000 times the density of air.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Bean on September 21, 2018, 08:57:32 AM
Fundamental to marketing is things that look radically different from currently successful products won't compete well.

I guess that's, at least in part, why electric cars like Tesla are currently designed to look like their preedecessors. 
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on September 22, 2018, 03:30:34 AM
Beasho,  the Fanantic foil is just a first step, Iím sure all foil Ďdesignersí would be reading this and other forums and looking for inspiration.
 All it takes is a 20 second video showing new performance on a new foil design and all the makers will have to catch up.
 Youíve already proved in your video that the rear foil isnít needed.
 Ive also had people call me a kook in the surf and itís just laughable how little they know of life, surf and design but theyíve got cool Tatts so Iím impressed by their  knowledgeable opinion.
Longer single foils are more stable over a wide range of speeds and a true top speed is going to be phenomenal if you get a big long wall thatís moving fast and closing fast. Itís a pity I donít live near you or Iím sure we could make some amazing progress with foil design.
But for the average surfer a swept single foil is going to make foiling easier and quicker to learn.
 ďOver Foiling ď is a great description, twin foils are amazing in the huge arena of low energy waves, itís been like opening another world to surf in but they donít like steep hollow waves. A single foil will be easier to make and with the right area distribution can be adapted for all sorts of waves. I definately think I could put together a foil for Mavericks. I wouldnít worry in the slightest about lift, my only concern would be for very high speed stability. You could potentially cover 100 yards in a few seconds.

Bean, Yes itís uncanny that I did the same foil design 9 years ago but it shows thereís a familiar design progression given the same parameters. Iím sure other designers have looked at the same idea too. The next step would be to ĎClose the Circleí of the tips and form a central planing area. Like a bicycle, a foil doesnít need to be 2 feet wide, 13 inches is stable enough at speed. And once that step is taken and seen to be functional, itíll open another world of new designs.

 PonoBill, Id be keen to see what foil designs you have hidden but Im sure this Fanatic foil will spur other makers to compete and innovate.
Iíd be getting the team together and over a few beers get everyone to embrace a new paradigm and just let the thoughts flow and then the next day, set to making them happen.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: surfcowboy on September 22, 2018, 07:28:43 AM
Surffoils in that last shot is literally dusting off old designs. LOL thatís awesome.

Beasho my new mast is easy to mount to. I could probably mock up a plywood model of one of these and mount it. Anyone got dims?

The Axis fuselage would work too with minimal work. SUPUK (chased away by something or someone, no doubt) is riding one. Super stiff and strong solid aluminum. The tail will likely need a small attachment for support but that can be minimal Iíll bet if the nose mount is stiff enough.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on September 22, 2018, 12:07:39 PM
Beasho, 

Itís a pity I donít live near you or Iím sure we could make some amazing progress with foil design.

I definately think I could put together a foil for Mavericks. I wouldnít worry in the slightest about lift, my only concern would be for very high speed stability. You could potentially cover 100 yards in a few seconds.
SF, in today's small world, distance really shouldn't be the impeding factor of innovation IMO. I'm sure that since you have...

Quote from: SURFFOILS
Iím on FB with constant innovation and new ideas for foils.
No products to sell but I am happy to give away my knowledge.
...and that I believe Beash does all of his own testing for his own curiosity, and not for profit...that I'm sure that if you were to send him that wing, or whatever wing(s) you believe best suited for his test locale, that you could both figure out the monetary sharing of the shipping fees, and whatever it would take to design, build, and get them back and forth to make it equitable to the two of you.

I guess all I'm saying is that I'd hate for future innovations that would push our sport ahead leaps and bounds (if that indeed is what the testing bears out) to be thwarted before they ever get off the ground just because of some shipping costs or distance between shaper, tester, and/or test site would be an absolute shame.

Heck maybe a "Zoner Kickstarter" type of thing might be another option if need be; because I know you, and others here have piqued my interest in these "new/old" wing shapes, and would love to get my hands on them if/when the testing proves their improvements over what we only have available now, and would being able to buy, use, test, and/or advertise them at my local break as well.

Just my thoughts, and I suppose dismay if distance is the only thing throwing a monkey wrench in the works.  :(
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on September 22, 2018, 01:52:31 PM
SCB, Iíve got a hundred or more foils stashed under the house, Iíve got a Foiling journal of notes for every session on every foil so I can always refer back. Makes it easier to avoid repeating mistakes.
 When you stretch area around you need to add area because it loses effectiveness. In the reverse way when you use a single central foil, you can use less area because a centred planing area is more effective.

Looking deeper into the physics of hydrodynamic design, theres a world of areas and angles that Dont affect lift, theyíre virtually useless for lift or control. They donít work but can be useful.  Look at the  foil and see the thinner chord area at the front. Itís not big enough to give lift but it provides physical stability to the larger side foil pods without messing up the feel I want. We see a rectangle with a hole in the middle, the water sees a U. The effect is a very stable, wide and long lifting area with 2 long lateral foils for steep waves. A rear block that creates projection under your back foot and front side tips for stability in turns like on a standard foil today. It keeps the drive under your back foot and the directional control at the front.
 
SSS,  about the 100 yards, I meant it not as a goal but as an indication that I believe big wave foiling will be incredibly fast like downhill skiing.
Youíll reach that point on the precipice, and then a massive acceleration.
 Theres a lot of form drag, tailfoil drag and getting rid of those drags will open up higher speeds. That experience should make your hair sizzle Beasho.

 This sweep wing idea is already confirmed as PonoBill says he knows someone else who rides swept wings so letís go forward from there.  Thereís a lot more to come.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on September 23, 2018, 07:05:52 PM
If thatís too far ahead, maybe we can meet here again next year and see where foilings at.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on October 26, 2018, 04:36:26 AM
Now this is the review that reveals the strengths of this foils design.

https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/Foiling/Fanatic-Aero-Surf-Foil-1500
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: exiled on October 26, 2018, 02:45:21 PM
Yeah, but that's on a kite. If a thin foil can't get a rider up on gutless barely breaking slop than I think you are missing what is making foil gain its popularity.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on October 27, 2018, 12:57:47 PM
Foiling is popular because itís fun. As foil design evolves it opens up wider opportunities to foil. This design review shows that by curving the foil it holds power better.
 These benefits will open up other parts of the wave like the tube and then foiling will be even more fun and popular.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: surfcowboy on October 27, 2018, 08:49:46 PM
Saw a guy almost getting barreled on Instagram this week. Wave was overhead and he almost got it. So the current wing foils are capable of riding hollow waves. The only question is, is that best or easiest. But we are way beyond what any of us thought would happen now 2 years in.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on October 28, 2018, 01:26:58 AM
SCB, Iíll have to do a video of pulling into tubes on my Foils. Itís the only way to show it. I donít think Iíve ever not come out of one.
 Give me a week to get the camera and mount it somewhere, maybe on my Gath instead of the nose of the board.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on October 29, 2018, 02:54:19 AM
Another curved foil. Canít tell who by.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Bean on October 29, 2018, 03:14:46 AM
Another curved foil. Canít tell who by.
Come on, you could tell us😁
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on October 29, 2018, 06:29:24 AM
Delta foils I think, from the YouTube video I saw ?
 I did these curved foils myself back in 2008 so itís new technology to you guys but not to me.
 Iím building a Gath-Cam and Iíll do a video this week, if the waves are willing, of  steep take-offs, real drops, bottom turns, tube riding and stalls on average beach break waves. 
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on October 29, 2018, 10:37:08 PM
Got a $20 camera on my Gath. I not keen on using a selfie stick in the surf so hopefully the Gath-Cam will work out fine. Iíll give it a go tomorrow.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Bean on October 30, 2018, 02:43:38 AM
Guessing you ride goofy-foot
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on October 30, 2018, 02:58:12 AM
Guessing you ride goofy-foot
Bean,thatís astute. Only people who regularly use helmets would pick that up.
 Hopefully I can score a decent wave tomorrow and show a complete routine of manouvers on a single wave and show how easy it is to foil right in the pocket.
 My only worry is turning the camera on before the wave and not after !
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on October 31, 2018, 01:53:03 AM
First time with a camera and got crap footage. I didnít know that the casing fogs up in hot weather.

https://youtu.be/wXMtkLqMwk4

 So Iíll try another POV next week with a GoPro and wrist strap.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on November 04, 2018, 09:17:33 PM
I forgot I had some videos on Vimeo from 6 years ago.
 This ones just take offs and pull ins on beach barrels.
Not a great POV but you can see Im foiling in the steepest part of the wave.

https://vimeo.com/59827580
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: Fishman on December 05, 2018, 12:27:46 AM
I forgot I had some videos on Vimeo from 6 years ago.
 This ones just take offs and pull ins on beach barrels.
Not a great POV but you can see Im foiling in the steepest part of the wave.

https://vimeo.com/59827580
I literally can't make heads from tails on that video, which way is the camera facing?

I'm looking forward to seeing a foil tube ride. Do you have any still photos from the beach of someone in the tube on a foil?
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on December 06, 2018, 12:30:31 PM
Hi Fishman,the cameras on the nose facing backwards.i only did several videos to see how the foils rides in the water and how much mast flex there was.
 That video was of a dozen beach tubes and I had to stay high in the tube to prevent the foil hitting the sand. I really donít foil with anyone else but if I had a Red Bull film crew Iíd be able to get better video and stills.

Interesting that these computer geeks designed a foil even more raked back than the Fanatic Aero.
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: surfcowboy on December 06, 2018, 09:00:36 PM
Whereís that shot from man? You got a site or social media account for that?
Title: Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on December 06, 2018, 09:56:14 PM
Here it is...
 They redesigned a Slingshot foil.

https://www.javelin-tech.com/blog/2017/08/3d-printed-hydrofoil-project-intro/

Looks about 45 deg sweep.