Standup Zone Forum

Stand Up Paddle => Technique => Topic started by: deepmud on September 13, 2018, 03:40:22 PM

Title: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: deepmud on September 13, 2018, 03:40:22 PM
I think I found a thread on that already on here, but my search comes up with a bunch of non-helpful threads -

Anyway - I'm  pretty slow :D I am an overweight clydesdale - maybe the small end of "big men" - you know, I'm stronger/bigger than most people but there are plenty who are bigger. Like an average Samoan maybe. Not a skinny paddler :D .  At 278 this morning I'm happily down from the 295 I was hitting this spring - and it's due to flatwater sup. I'm working on eating better but the sup is my reward and my stick both - this preamble is about pointing that for ME at 51, 5mph is hauling ass - pretty much top speed. I have some sprints close to 6mph but I haven't been able to maintain much more than a 4.3 average - even when I was trying for speed. Lots of "trips" 2 to 6 miles with an average of 4.2 or maybe 4.4 mph when I am done.

I was trying to be more efficient on Tuesday - working on a stroke, not speed. I sort of imagine a gondolier in my head singing and paddling..."oh solo..." reach, plant, pull..."mio...."....pull to my feet, rotate my torso, work my core...go just past my feet maybe...."oh, solo mio" again and I'm whipping the blade up and forward, thinking "NO splash" and planting for the next stroke..... but I ended up with a 1/2 mile at 6:02 (Garmin Vivoactive buzzes me every 1/2 mile) - and when I went back to my GPS on my phone, it was really a mile at around 5mph . What gets me is I wasn't trying for speed  - and my heart rate stayed pretty low (mid 90's)up until I got into some speed boat chop :D which also killed my speed.

I wish my season wasn't about to end, I feel like I'm starting to "get it" - but I go in for a new inner half of my left knee on Sept. 18 - but it's getting colder here already, and the lakes are full of  dead Red salmon, I needed to pull the trigger or I'd be trying to rehab on icy streets.




 
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Luc Benac on September 13, 2018, 04:07:23 PM
Search Youtube for stroke video by John Puakea

i.e.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arAJhcoQ_BY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arAJhcoQ_BY)
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Area 10 on September 13, 2018, 04:46:27 PM
I recently went swimming in a pool in central London, UK. The lanes were marked “fast”, “medium” and “slow”. I used to swim competitively decades ago, but hadn’t had a proper swim session in about a year, so I plonked myself in the slow lane. Did a couple of lengths and the people in the medium lane next to me seemed to be swimming with more intent and less stopping, so I switched to that. Well, it turns out that although they seemed to be trying hard and looked pretty fit, they weren’t going very fast and I could only take about 3 strokes before I was poking my nose into someone’s feet. So, somewhat reluctantly since I was just at the pool for a relaxing swim in boardshorts and t-shirt not a full-on workout, and the guys in the fast lane all had swim hats on, speedos and GPS watches, heart rate monitors etc and were thrashing the water with great gusto.

Anyway, I slipped into the maelstrom and started swimming. Three strokes and my hand touched the feet of the guy in front. So I passed him. A few seconds later I ran into the back of the next triathlete apparently going full tilt, churning up the water like an outboard motor. Well, I ended up passing him using legs only. In the end, I just ended up using my legs only for the whole session. They were just too damn slow, it was pointless. “Fast lane” my arse. “Max effort” lane, maybe. “Fast lane”, not so much.

Paddling a SUP is no different. Like swimming, it’s SO much about technique, and being smooth and economical. Splashing and crashing and bouncing the board like a tugboat on a trampoline will only make you slower. Get the paddle blade right under the rail of the board with the shaft pointing straight up to the sky, perfectly vertical. Get a smooth catch and don’t pull harder than you need to: you aren’t lifting weights. You are asking the water to help you, and no-one feels co-operative when pushed around roughly, so keep it smooth and gently and regular. Bend your knees and get that blade deep in the water.

The speed will come. But it takes a while. Good distance swimmers will train for hours and hours each week. Up and down, up and down, for mile after mile. To become a good paddler you have to do that too. But thrashing is pointless. It’s just wasted energy and speed. Be polite to the water instead :)

Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: PonoBill on September 13, 2018, 05:52:47 PM
Both Johnny Puakea and Dave Kalama teach essentially the same stroke. Watching their videos will help a lot. Paddling an OC6 teaches your that paddle speed faster than boat speed is generally wasted energy unless everyone in the boat has the power to go faster. If you think about it a little, what's happening when you pull the paddle faster than the board is going? Mostly the blade will slip through the water--lost energy just making the water churn. Some slip is inevitable, and if you're trying to make the board accelerate, you have to pull the blade faster than the board is going. But a lot of effort that "hard" paddlers make is just turned into a tiny bit of added heat in the water.

For heavy guys this is even more important. A 300 pound OC6 can easily weigh 1200 pounds with six paddlers in it. Nothing great happens when one person is pulling harder and faster. I'm 230,and I've been paddling for more than ten years. Over time my blades have gotten smaller, my stroke much more deliberate, and even though I'm older and weaker I make about the same peak and sustained speeds as when I was pulling harder and faster.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Billekrub on September 13, 2018, 06:53:36 PM
There are times when the board moves so much faster with less effort.  So all of this hits home.  Spending "time" to get the paddle fully inserted before loading helps quite a bit, for starters.

It would seem, while accelerating, that a bigger paddle would need to slip less, give more purchase, allow slower turnover, a longer stroke interval under load, and a smaller amount of time overall out of the water.  Lower turnover might also make finding the optimal form easier, compared to a smaller paddle at higher SPM. 

Most surf paddlers, including some of the very best local performers use a small paddle and windmill violently with arms and shoulders, and do not appear to load the paddle very much with their body.  Perhaps, why so many of them have had shoulder reconstruction after years of impingement, sometimes both shoulders, or, at least have to stop and recover for some months.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: ukgm on September 14, 2018, 01:49:04 AM
I recently went swimming in a pool in central London, UK. The lanes were marked “fast”, “medium” and “slow”. I used to swim competitively decades ago, but hadn’t had a proper swim session in about a year,

The speed will come. But it takes a while. Good distance swimmers will train for hours and hours each week. Up and down, up and down, for mile after mile. To become a good paddler you have to do that too. But thrashing is pointless. It’s just wasted energy and speed. Be polite to the water instead :)

I agree with you. You're just one of those annoying people I refer to as a 'classically trained' swimmer. I've got a couple of overweight unfit friends who were high level club swimmers in their teens and they can crank out a 5 minute 400m on no training at all as their technique was ingrained and polished so early, it never left. I on the other hand in my teens had the choice between swimming club or lifeguarding and I opted for the latter. As a result, I'm a strong swimmer and can turn out a 6 minute dead 400m having not swum for a year or two but I can't physically go under that without a major amount of work. I just don't have the refinement.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: yugi on September 14, 2018, 06:38:52 AM
Sounds like you're getting it, mud. Cool. And SUP will be great rehab for your knee when spring comes.

Like the Navy Seals say: Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Swimming is a very good analogy. In swimming it is clear that the better the swimmer the longer the glide per stroke.

Which is why, in swimming, the measure of efficiency is stroke index. Basically the measure of a better stroke.  Used to improve swimming technique.

In SUP we aren't as attached to this as hard and fast rule. I remember watching a race this year, I think it was Carolina Cup, where Connor Baxter and someone else are sprinting to finish. Both going the same speed and Baxter using a much higher cadence.

OK, Baxter is a a different kind of paddler who has many strokes in his toolbox. We may see the "diesel stroke" become more the norm for flat water paddling as a new generation of racers emerge that weren't first surfers.

Just to say that in SUP depending on the situation there are more tools than one. For example upwind you want to plant your blade on the top of a wave so you end up with a very irregular cadence.

UKGM, we can argue in another thread why Stroke Index is a measure of the paddler "diesel stroke" efficiency and not a measure of board drag.   ;)
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on September 14, 2018, 07:02:35 AM
I've been working on this lately too. I'm probably never going to be a really fast paddler, and I don't care enough about racing to make the effort. I do care about having an efficient stroke, so lately I've been working on getting that torso twist in on each stroke. It hurst like hell after a while, but those are my core muscles complaining, so it's probably what I need anyway.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: 1tuberider on September 14, 2018, 07:06:08 AM
Hi Deepmud and welcome
Could wind be a factor? For us on the pond (ocean) we also deal with current and tidal changes.
GPS would reflect speed over ground where impeller on board would reflect speed over water.

Sounds like your doing great and having a good time with healthy benefits.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: ukgm on September 14, 2018, 08:09:40 AM
1) In SUP we aren't as attached to this as hard and fast rule. I remember watching a race this year, I think it was Carolina Cup, where Connor Baxter and someone else are sprinting to finish. Both going the same speed and Baxter using a much higher cadence.

2) We may see the "diesel stroke" become more the norm for flat water paddling as a new generation of racers emerge that weren't first surfers.

3) UKGM, we can argue in another thread why Stroke Index is a measure of the paddler "diesel stroke" efficiency and not a measure of board drag.   ;)

1) I wouldn't know but I suspect if you put Connor in a lab and did the tests, he'd be shown to have a good Vo2 max. As a result, such athletes are better suited (or likely more able) to tolerate higher stroke rates (in the same way that some cyclists can handle 100rpm+ whereas others are actually more efficient at producing power down at around 75rpm). This means it may not make sense to copy them (note: such fads happened in other sports like cycling when everyone tried copying Lance Armstrong with his high revving style circa 2003 which then turned out to be a huge mistake for obvious reasons).

2) My feeling is that I would suggest its merely a case of ensuring that training is undertaken to match the needs (i.e. the speed or power) of the event and that stroke rate and equipment is matched to the physiology and the mechanics of the paddler.

3) I don't believe I ever said SI was a measure of board drag. (I use coast down tests instead to measure board drag). SI is a measure of paddling efficiency of the entire paddle & board system. SI is used by kayakers and C1 too but I am currently have a pet project running to create metrics that are more applicable to SUP directly. Ask me in about 6 months...  ;D
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Area 10 on September 14, 2018, 08:18:53 AM
My Garmin Fenix (and Vivoactive) gives distance per stroke. So presumably if you can convolve this with speed (perhaps also HR) then you get to learn what you want to know - enough anyhow for amateur training purposes.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: ukgm on September 14, 2018, 10:04:06 AM
My Garmin Fenix (and Vivoactive) gives distance per stroke. So presumably if you can convolve this with speed (perhaps also HR) then you get to learn what you want to know - enough anyhow for amateur training purposes.

Just as a sidebar: be aware that you don't use the recorded speed as a basis for analysis. These watches seems to work reasonably well for distance per stroke analysis purposes but wrist mounting will overestimate average speeds of your training paddles.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Area 10 on September 14, 2018, 10:14:13 AM
Doesn’t it just calculate speed *at the end* (rather than live speed) as overall distance/time?

I get pretty similar readings for the average speed over a section from my deck-mounted Velocitek Makai and my wrist-mounted Garmin, although certainly they do not agree entirely on distances covered.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Luc Benac on September 14, 2018, 10:16:00 AM
Doesn’t it just calculate speed *at the end* (rather than live speed) as overall distance/time?

I get pretty similar readings for the average speed over a section from my deck-mounted Velocitek Makai and my wrist-mounted Garmin, although certainly they do not agree entirely on distances covered.

Same here.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: ukgm on September 14, 2018, 02:58:51 PM
1) Doesn’t it just calculate speed *at the end* (rather than live speed) as overall distance/time?

2) I get pretty similar readings for the average speed over a section from my deck-mounted Velocitek Makai and my wrist-mounted Garmin, although certainly they do not agree entirely on distances covered.

1) I'm not sure. I do know that I can even see differences between Garmins own software and others I use though.

2) If they don't agree on distances covered (but you suspected that they calculate average speed as distance/time), surely that would lead to inaccuracies. This contradiction would suggest that maybe they don't use that method to calculate average speed ?
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Luc Benac on September 14, 2018, 03:04:22 PM
Distances as recorded on my Garmin Vivoactive , the file been downloaded as a GPX and used in another software , always come quite a bit shorter than as shown on my Velocitek Makai. i.e. 12 km become 11.5
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: deepmud on September 14, 2018, 03:15:34 PM
Sounds like you're getting it, mud. Cool. And SUP will be great rehab for your knee when spring comes.

Like the Navy Seals say: Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Swimming is a very good analogy. In swimming it is clear that the better the swimmer the longer the glide per stroke.

Which is why, in swimming, the measure of efficiency is stroke index. Basically the measure of a better stroke.  Used to improve swimming technique.

In SUP we aren't as attached to this as hard and fast rule. I remember watching a race this year, I think it was Carolina Cup, where Connor Baxter and someone else are sprinting to finish. Both going the same speed and Baxter using a much higher cadence.

OK, Baxter is a a different kind of paddler who has many strokes in his toolbox. We may see the "diesel stroke" become more the norm for flat water paddling as a new generation of racers emerge that weren't first surfers.

Just to say that in SUP depending on the situation there are more tools than one. For example upwind you want to plant your blade on the top of a wave so you end up with a very irregular cadence.

UKGM, we can argue in another thread why Stroke Index is a measure of the paddler "diesel stroke" efficiency and not a measure of board drag.   ;)

Diesel stroke :D - weird but I was out last night, trying to duplicate results - not quite getting what I wanted, I was a fairly tired 6:20 1/2mile , so I switched to a   r e a l l y s l o w stroke - sort of. Going  deliberately…plant the blade,breathoutandpullhard… glide and stand. .. for two.. breaths… now reach out, plant the blade,breathoutandpullhard, glide and stand... well as much glide as my iSup has - it's not terrible - 2015 Red Elite 14'x26" . So being REALLY deliberate on a hard stroke with lots of rest between....I wasn't much slower. 4.75 mph average (on both my Samsung and my Vivoactive  ) - so within .25 mph. This loads up my lower back "twist muscles" - very similar to my kayak stroke, but one sided until I switch. BTW _ this stroke hoses the Vivoactive stroke counter - it's like it counts more strokes and very short ones when actually it's mostly a long glide/slow-down between power strokes. Instead of 20 foot strokes it's like 5 or 6 foot strokes.

I think if I work on the "diesel stroke" and try to minimize the time between strokes - that's my efficient pace that I can do for long periods of time.

Speed calcs - well - there is "at the end" and "at the moment" both available. I run ViewRanger on my Samsung, and compare it with the Garmin - I can't start them at the same time but if I select the same sections of track that Garmin has marked as "Lap" - it's a 1/2 mile on both the devices - at least on the maps when I view them online. They are very close if not the same.

Wind - teeny amount behind me 2 days ago - I still could feel wind in my face. Not flat calm. In fact - heading up wind I was about 4.5mph vs 5.0 so maybe a bit of wind?  - but there were other factors, like paddling a mile in choppy water before getting away from that speed boat in the upper lake, then heading back. That kicked my butt - the Red Elite is NOT stable. Last night paddling - dead flat calm.

I'm slowly building my reply here - not keeping up with the other replies sorry - but next week I'll have days and days to read up and watch videos and dream of next season - or maybe even some winter paddling, I should finally fit my 3x Oneal drysuit now that I'm below  280.

EDIT (while I still can) -- some screen caps of ViewRanger (lets me select of track and it recalcs speed for that section) and the long view from Vivoactive, showing pace at any given point - and heart rate. I must be really using the anaerobic energy for the first 20-25 minutes - my heart rate is like I'm mowing the lawn or something, but you can see the speed is up there......
EDIT again - Hmm - pics should be "diesel fast" first - that was first - then "diesel slow" - and near the end of that at almost 1.5 miles of paddles ( I did an easy half mile between) my heart rate finally climbs up and burns steam till the end of the night.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: deepmud on September 14, 2018, 03:30:58 PM
Search Youtube for stroke video by John Puakea

i.e.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arAJhcoQ_BY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arAJhcoQ_BY)

I've watched this a few times - I will again - maybe I can make a thread on stroke technique if there isn't one already - put them all in a row with Zoner commentary. I really find BOTH of those things helpful- the video is better for with the commentary for sure.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: deepmud on September 14, 2018, 03:39:27 PM
There are times when the board moves so much faster with less effort.  So all of this hits home.  Spending "time" to get the paddle fully inserted before loading helps quite a bit, for starters.

It would seem, while accelerating, that a bigger paddle would need to slip less, give more purchase, allow slower turnover, a longer stroke interval under load, and a smaller amount of time overall out of the water.  Lower turnover might also make finding the optimal form easier, compared to a smaller paddle at higher SPM. 

Most surf paddlers, including some of the very best local performers use a small paddle and windmill violently with arms and shoulders, and do not appear to load the paddle very much with their body.  Perhaps, why so many of them have had shoulder reconstruction after years of impingement, sometimes both shoulders, or, at least have to stop and recover for some months.

yeah - me too  .... I'm doing very little arm/shoulder movement, though I am experimenting with a "shove/straighten" of my upper arm just after the blade is "planted" - I'm getting the shaft vertical quickly, then really pulling/loading up the blade as I push DOWN and BACK - and when the blade is just by/behind my feet- I am imagining the blade is about to go PAST vertical - out it comes and whip forward and reach for the next stroke......I'm getting a strong sensation of pulling myself TO the blade in this that I didn't before. I feel like if I could just lose another 50 :D I'd be almost respectably fast - at least on a mile or more run. Less work lifting my heavy body up for the next stroke, less work with the SUP not sunk so low in the water too. It really sprays out the water in front at 5mph.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: deepmud on September 14, 2018, 03:45:25 PM
I've been working on this lately too. I'm probably never going to be a really fast paddler, and I don't care enough about racing to make the effort. I do care about having an efficient stroke, so lately I've been working on getting that torso twist in on each stroke. It hurst like hell after a while, but those are my core muscles complaining, so it's probably what I need anyway.

here ? I really have been feeling it here on this slower/twistier stroke.


Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: deepmud on September 14, 2018, 03:50:16 PM
Both Johnny Puakea and Dave Kalama teach essentially the same stroke. Watching their videos will help a lot. Paddling an OC6 teaches your that paddle speed faster than boat speed is generally wasted energy unless everyone in the boat has the power to go faster. If you think about it a little, what's happening when you pull the paddle faster than the board is going? Mostly the blade will slip through the water--lost energy just making the water churn. Some slip is inevitable, and if you're trying to make the board accelerate, you have to pull the blade faster than the board is going. But a lot of effort that "hard" paddlers make is just turned into a tiny bit of added heat in the water.

For heavy guys this is even more important. A 300 pound OC6 can easily weigh 1200 pounds with six paddlers in it. Nothing great happens when one person is pulling harder and faster. I'm 230,and I've been paddling for more than ten years. Over time my blades have gotten smaller, my stroke much more deliberate, and even though I'm older and weaker I make about the same peak and sustained speeds as when I was pulling harder and faster.

I wish I'd started this 15 -20 years ago - when I was 35 I finally got my bench press over 350 and could work out with 300 easy. When I was 18 I was 185,  benching 300 but I could run a 5:10 mile too.  I doubt I could bench 300 now, but 275 likely and if I got back into it over 300 in a month or so. Still pretty strong at 50. I can't run for crap tho'. Maybe with new knees.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: PonoBill on September 14, 2018, 07:46:07 PM
Get some hips into your stroke and the mid-back stuff will turn into a deep massage. You fire your hips forward at the middle to end of your stroke. If I forget to do that, not only am I slower but that night my back will be creaky. When I fire the hips my back feels like warm butter.

Also, when you plant the blade, lean forward like Johnny says, but push the blade into the water with the forward motion, like sticking a letter into an envelope slot. Keep pushing down, but slow for a microsecond to let the water stabilize and the air leave the blade, then push down more than you pull. The difference between doing this well or not is whether you need a 95 blade or an 82. If you get a full clean catch an 82 will pull you off the board. If you don't, a 95 is barely enough.

Last but not least, check the position of your upper arm and wrist. If your wrist is straight and your elbow is high, you can't put much pressure on the blade. When I catch myself doing that I break my upper wrist downward, which brings my elbow down. You can put twice as much downward pressure on the blade then, which maintains the catch and shoves the board forward.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: deepmud on September 14, 2018, 10:04:27 PM
Thanks Bill.. I'm already visualizing the blade sticking... Maybe this Christmas I can get smaller blade.
I managed to hit the 6:01 1/2 mile while doing a very deliberate slow high torque stroke, totally glass flat water .... Check out the weirdly low heartbeat. Screen shot is my 4 miles on Garmin. The fast 1/2 mile is from 12 minutes to 21 you can see the slow down between segments.
Edit ;anb yes lower back like walrm butter :) hot but not painful
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: PonoBill on September 15, 2018, 09:54:51 PM
That would be a high heart rate for me. I have a genetically low heart rate--I can't get much past 130.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Quickbeam on September 16, 2018, 10:39:47 AM
Last but not least, check the position of your upper arm and wrist. If your wrist is straight and your elbow is high, you can't put much pressure on the blade. When I catch myself doing that I break my upper wrist downward, which brings my elbow down. You can put twice as much downward pressure on the blade then, which maintains the catch and shoves the board forward.

A lot of good ideas in this thread. Just a word of caution though about “breaking your wrist down”. I had a pretty serious case of golfer’s elbow and it took me a long time to figure out that it was a downward break in my wrist (otherwise known as “extension”) that was causing it. It’s a long story, some of which was detailed in the “Training, Diet and  Fitness” category (https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,25795.45.html), but the golfers’ elbow I had was no joke. It was not only painful, but it also really derailed my ability to paddle.

Just something to be aware of.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: PonoBill on September 16, 2018, 03:24:11 PM
Thanks for adding that, it's not a technique to use consistently--I do it to force my elbow low, then relax and get my wrist straight while keeping my elbow down. A high elbow is not only weak, but it also can fire up your shoulders and back, even if you don't notice it while your paddling. My tendency is to lift my elbow to shoulder height or above, and that's a weak position.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Luc Benac on September 16, 2018, 04:01:24 PM
Now that down-winding season is winding down, I am working again on my stroke. I use a Black Project Hydro 78 (76.9 sqi).
I can attest that when a paddle is planted properly, you get a work-out even of a small paddle. After that the Mana 82 feels like a power monster.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on September 16, 2018, 05:07:44 PM
I've been forcing myself to do a torso twist every time I stroke. This brings effort off my shoulders to my core, which is good. It's a damn workout though. Even a couple of miles doing that feels like a lot more.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: deepmud on September 16, 2018, 10:47:36 PM
That would be a high heart rate for me. I have a genetically low heart rate--I can't get much past 130.
I'm doing my fasted pace (5mph)  at a rate of 102 to 84 - I'm going to assume the 64 is "the watch slipped" . Later, at 25 minutes, the rate climbs up suddenly and steeply - it does this every time. I must be running on stored energies up to then? Side note - my resting heart rate keeps dropping the more I do sup. Used to be in the 60's, now in the 50's. Sleeping it is at 50-52.

Worked on hip thrust :D yesterday - got in a mile at  5mph. I'll put up a couple more screenshots. "Diesel Stroke" seems to be my thing, at least for now, I got in a mile at 5.0/4.9 even with a headwind. I know it's not that much - but it picked up .7mph average, even tho' I was hitting well in excess of 5mph for short bursts before, the average was never very high. None today - which means I'm done for 2018. Surgery is Tuesday, I don't see a workout Monday. Maybe.

"breaking the wrist"  - pointing hand up? I'm not seeing. Lots and lots of power in my arm so down pressure not a problem. I do have some issues with the left shoulder, but after 2 years of working to get full extension, my right-side stroke (which was limited by left shoulder) is about the same are the left side. Feels strong, and the Ke Nalu shaft seems to flex enough to keep my joints happy.

Question - if setting the blade gets the traction of the larger blade - what does the smaller blade do that that larger does not? Just the grams of weight saved?

Ichabod - YES - torso twist can be tiring - but I feel like using those larger muscles has to be smart money. "Firing my hips" like Bill was saying seems to spread the stress out - less low down heat, more spread up into my lats.  Feels like I'm trying to do 15 things in perfect order and being lucky to get 8 of them right at any given time.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Area 10 on September 17, 2018, 12:34:23 AM
Re: smaller blade advantages - smaller blades reduce swing weight and windage, and also make it easier to get the shaft vertical. However a principal advantage is that while lots of slippage of the blade is highly undesirable, none at all is very tough on the body. Most people find a happy compromise that reduces “catch shock” when you first sink the blade and start pulling, but not so much that the blade slips greatly an cavitation. Any loss of initial momentary acceleration is more than made up for by a slightly faster stroke rate and a lot less fatigue. It’s like the gears on a bike - running in top gear the whole time might be fast for a short while but the strain on your body would be immense, especially when conditions get difficult.

If a person’s technique is poor, they can be faster and more comfortable with a big blade, because it doesn’t slip as much for them. But as your technique improves you find that ever smaller blades don’t slip.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: ukgm on September 17, 2018, 01:16:13 AM
Re: smaller blade advantages - smaller blades reduce swing weight and windage, and also make it easier to get the shaft vertical. However a principal advantage is that while lots of slippage of the blade is highly undesirable, none at all is very tough on the body. Most people find a happy compromise that reduces “catch shock” when you first sink the blade and start pulling, but not so much that the blade slips greatly an cavitation. Any loss of initial momentary acceleration is more than made up for by a slightly faster stroke rate and a lot less fatigue. It’s like the gears on a bike - running in top gear the whole time might be fast for a short while but the strain on your body would be immense, especially when conditions get difficult.


To add to this - a smaller blade will likely lead to a higher cadence for the same speed (which in turn places higher demands on your V02 max demands). It's about matching the blade to the paddler but a lot of this is actually trainable - I've had some seasons whereby I've spent my winters training on high or low gears on the bike for specific reasons (typically for racing short distance events) or on the SUP (whereby I've done strength/development work on the board).
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on September 17, 2018, 06:40:10 AM
I've been working on this lately too. I'm probably never going to be a really fast paddler, and I don't care enough about racing to make the effort. I do care about having an efficient stroke, so lately I've been working on getting that torso twist in on each stroke. It hurst like hell after a while, but those are my core muscles complaining, so it's probably what I need anyway.

here ? I really have been feeling it here on this slower/twistier stroke.

Yes, definitely there. Of course as a middle-aged guy, that's exactly where I need the exercise.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Quickbeam on September 17, 2018, 09:59:48 AM
Thanks for adding that, it's not a technique to use consistently--I do it to force my elbow low, then relax and get my wrist straight while keeping my elbow down. A high elbow is not only weak, but it also can fire up your shoulders and back, even if you don't notice it while your paddling. My tendency is to lift my elbow to shoulder height or above, and that's a weak position.

You’re welcome. I’d hate to see someone go through the same thing I did if it was preventable.

Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: yugi on September 17, 2018, 10:04:41 AM
Re: smaller blade advantages - smaller blades reduce swing weight and windage, and also make it easier to get the shaft vertical. However a principal advantage is that while lots of slippage of the blade is highly undesirable, none at all is very tough on the body. Most people find a happy compromise that reduces “catch shock” when you first sink the blade and start pulling, but not so much that the blade slips greatly an cavitation. Any loss of initial momentary acceleration is more than made up for by a slightly faster stroke rate and a lot less fatigue. It’s like the gears on a bike - running in top gear the whole time might be fast for a short while but the strain on your body would be immense, especially when conditions get difficult.


To add to this - a smaller blade will likely lead to a higher cadence for the same speed (which in turn places higher demands on your V02 max demands). It's about matching the blade to the paddler but a lot of this is actually trainable - I've had some seasons whereby I've spent my winters training on high or low gears on the bike for specific reasons (typically for racing short distance events) or on the SUP (whereby I've done strength/development work on the board).

I don't find a smaller blade is like a lower gear. I probably even pant and hold water better with the smaller blade.

Cadence (using the same stroke) is directly related to board speed.

A smaller blade is a bit quicker flicking it in and out, yes, there is a slight gain there.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: yugi on September 17, 2018, 10:21:54 AM
… so I switched to a   r e a l l y s l o w stroke - sort of. Going  deliberately…plant the blade,breathoutandpullhard… glide and stand. .. for two.. breaths… now reach out, plant the blade,breathoutandpullhard, glide and stand... well as much glide as my iSup has - it's not terrible - 2015 Red Elite 14'x26" . So being REALLY deliberate on a hard stroke with lots of rest between....I wasn't much slower.
 …

 If a complete stroke is CATCH / PULL / EXIT / RECOVERY
 
 As a general rule you want to minimize RECOVERY time, and move fast from EXIT to CATCH. And make that a habit.
 
 If you want to use a slow powerful stroke plant your catch well forward, drive it down deep, and get your rest by leaning on the blade.
 
 Being able to lean on your blade requires a good “positive” angle as it is planted.
 
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Luc Benac on September 17, 2018, 10:31:10 AM
I have tried to keep track of the stroke rate vs. Distance Per Stroke and the theoretical speed depending on paddle size and board.
It is not Gospel as this is not measurement on a flat reservoir protected from the wind a la UGKM but subject to all kind of conditions with the exception of down-winding.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: ukgm on September 17, 2018, 12:38:04 PM

1) I don't find a smaller blade is like a lower gear. I probably even pant and hold water better with the smaller blade.

2) Cadence (using the same stroke) is directly related to board speed.

3) A smaller blade is a bit quicker flicking it in and out, yes, there is a slight gain there.

1) I wonder if your technique and efficiency may well be better with your smaller blade. Athlete paddling power generally is a product of stroke rate and applied force (minus any efficiency losses) so if you mess with one, you can see what needs to happen to keep the power output the same to maintain the same speed.

I do wonder though if uptil this point, we've all been using paddle blades that were too large and therefore the reductions we've made in recent times doesn't reduce the catch quality and a smaller size is adequate for now. What do you think ? I wonder how small we should be going. Black Project are currently really bucking the trends and going very small. I like it but this suits my sporting background probably.

2) Cadence in general ? yes, I agree with you. There are a few studies that support that in both swimming, kayaking a some other paddle sports. It's not foolproof but its the best thing left in lieu of a lack of a power meter. You may well also have seen that Vaaka also use that as their main training philosophy for their cadence sensors too.

3) Yep, - the corresponding aerodynamic drag is reduced for sure. That's been recorded in K1 kayaking with computational fluid dynamic simulations in some papers.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: ukgm on September 17, 2018, 12:45:14 PM
I have tried to keep track of the stroke rate vs. Distance Per Stroke and the theoretical speed depending on paddle size and board.
It is not Gospel as this is not measurement on a flat reservoir protected from the wind a la UGKM but subject to all kind of conditions with the exception of down-winding.

Interesting. Lots to think about here. Thanks for sharing this.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Luc Benac on September 17, 2018, 01:39:01 PM
I have tried to keep track of the stroke rate vs. Distance Per Stroke and the theoretical speed depending on paddle size and board.
It is not Gospel as this is not measurement on a flat reservoir protected from the wind a la UGKM but subject to all kind of conditions with the exception of down-winding.

Interesting. Lots to think about here. Thanks for sharing this.

I would gladly send you the Excel file with the data if of any help of interest.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: PonoBill on September 17, 2018, 02:20:56 PM
I used to believe that cadence was hardwired, that some people like high cadence and some do better with low. People who had high cadence "needed" a small paddle, those with low needed big. I don't know why I thought that it seems like nonsense now.

Cadence is something the paddler controls, and if you are paddling efficiently, it's related to board speed and technique. The greater your ability to get and hold a solid catch, the less blade you need. If you aren't slipping with a 60, then that's what you need. Not many people can pull that off, but I've seen a lot of really great, very powerful paddlers with very small blades lately. I credit Kalama, Puakea and Cain with that.

Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Luc Benac on September 17, 2018, 05:55:44 PM
I have teh same for DW but of course this is a lot less relevant as conditions will also dictate what stroke you need.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Eagle on September 17, 2018, 09:53:24 PM
As noted the past couple of years have used mostly the 430 sq cm Enduro AW which is around 67 sq in.  Going to my "normal" HA 500 sq in or 78 sq in blade feels foreign and puts more strain for the same speed.  Still use it -> but seem to go more for the smaller blade now.  Def am not a really great very powerful paddler -> but seems to work just fine with minimal slip.  For DW still use the huge 116 Vantage as the wind pushes so hard from behind -> a small blade just has insufficient grip for the higher board speed.

"I have more recently been using smaller blades to help with my lower back issues, and also to help adapt with my high cadence paddle style. I’ve been using the Starboard Enduro XS 430 for SUP Surfing and the High Aspect M for most races in sprints and flat water. If I am downwind paddling, I might opt for a tad larger blade and more lengthy shaft because of the higher speeds we are reaching and need for reach when at the crest of swells."

https://www.sup-internationalmag.com/knowledge-shafts-n-blades/

"Connor Baxter used the Bolt M and would like to have a larger paddle, so we developed the Lima L, the size moves from 510 cm2 to 531 cm2.

Fiona Wylde used the Bolt S at 480 cm2, now she will mostly use the LIMA M at 485 cm2."

https://www.trioceansurf.co.uk/surf-shop/stand-up-paddle-boards-sups/sup-paddles/starboard-lima-paddle-2018-carbonbalsa/
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: deepmud on September 17, 2018, 10:58:51 PM
… so I switched to a   r e a l l y s l o w stroke - sort of. Going  deliberately…plant the blade,breathoutandpullhard… glide and stand. .. for two.. breaths… now reach out, plant the blade,breathoutandpullhard, glide and stand... well as much glide as my iSup has - it's not terrible - 2015 Red Elite 14'x26" . So being REALLY deliberate on a hard stroke with lots of rest between....I wasn't much slower.
 …

 If a complete stroke is CATCH / PULL / EXIT / RECOVERY
 
 As a general rule you want to minimize RECOVERY time, and move fast from EXIT to CATCH. And make that a habit.
 
 If you want to use a slow powerful stroke plant your catch well forward, drive it down deep, and get your rest by leaning on the blade.
 
 Being able to lean on your blade requires a good “positive” angle as it is planted.

I do know I do better wasting less time between strokes - this was a deliberate exaggeration of the "diesel stroke" - it seems like it told me that the slow cadence  - very slow cadence - wasn't costing as much as I would expect. Really - I thought I would be REALLY SLOW - like not even  4mph average but it seemed to only cost a few tenths to maybe a 1/2 mph.  Maybe I was applying a lot more torque to each stroke ? Regardless - it was sort of the opposite of what I expected as a result.

What is a positive angle? Vertical? So the 15 degrees built into the paddle is there to lean on? Or a little less than vertical -  Early on (3 years ago :D) I was really driving it down and back - holding my arms stiff and trying to make my abs do the initial drive, and I was not getting it vertical so I could "lean on it" -  Ttying to make my last 6-7 years where I finally learned to NOT use my arms kayaking apply to SUP, I sort of turned my kayak torque twist sideways. Now - it's more like the kayak torque again - but not exactly.

I've been hung up on "smaller paddle is lower gears" before - I think I understand it's for higher cadence, that it isn't literally lower gears - that would just be a shorter paddle? like choking down on the paddle in wind?  But it's lower gears, in that it forces a higher cadence - sure. I can accept that.

If it's primarily to avoid stress - I guess I should look ahead and plan for smaller blades to avoid future injury - but is it possible that the scale of the person is part of this? I have big shoulders - big bones, big wrists, fingers like sausages and if I ever get down to 225 again I'll be damn skinny/low body fat if my muscle mass is even 85% what it is now. Is my scale of joints absorbing some of the largish blade shock? That and my flexy Ke Nalu shaft? If my board is carrying a lot more - might I just be stuck with a bigger paddle to avoid excessive slip? Tugboat not speedboat?  I'm not sure I'll get as much benefit from a 1 or 2 oz lighter paddle when I can focus on losing another 10 pounds and save the $250 for something else. I will say my old 3 piece feels like I'm swinging a shovel compared to the Ke Nalu. No doubt I liked and felt the lighter weight. Maybe the reality is that I need to spend a LOT more to get another level of light/fast paddle.

It's all academic as now - but I'll be reading/mentally prepping for next year. Wish me luck on my new 1/2 left knee  tomorrow :D
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: ukgm on September 18, 2018, 12:16:28 AM
1) I used to believe that cadence was hardwired, that some people like high cadence and some do better with low. People who had high cadence "needed" a small paddle, those with low needed big. I don't know why I thought that it seems like nonsense now.

2) Not many people can pull that off, but I've seen a lot of really great, very powerful paddlers with very small blades lately. I credit Kalama, Puakea and Cain with that.

1) There is certainly a preference. However, there is a degree of trainability and adaptation possible. However, there is probably an optimum efficiency but because it is likely a dynamic combination of blade size, shaft length and intended speed, I wouldn't even know where to begin to start. It's very complicated I would say.

2) ..... and having spoken to some manufacturers who sponsor pro's recently, they tell me that in the main, the elites are still progressively going smaller for the blade and/or shorter on the shaft. I'm still not sure what board I'm on next year but the second I find out, another couple of inches is coming off my shaft length I think.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: ukgm on September 18, 2018, 12:32:19 AM
The greater your ability to get and hold a solid catch, the less blade you need. If you aren't slipping with a 60, then that's what you need.

Just to pick up on this point, as a little experiment for anyone to try, go out on your board with the smallest paddle blade you can lay your hands on (a kids sized paddle would be ideal), place it in the water and then do a single stroke. You'll be amazed at how little surface area you actually need to still get a solid catch. Its only the fact we're in a hurry that the inefficiencies creep in. I'm becoming increasingly of the opinion that the 'normal' range of 90-95 inch surface area should in fact be considered 'large' and that as a sport, racers in particular are using blades too big still.

(this all said, can I just say how much I still love training with my Quickblade 'Big Mama Kalama' 130sq inch behemoth. It's a shoulder wrecker if used incorrectly but you really feel like you've had a workout when you get off the water).
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: ukgm on September 18, 2018, 05:52:25 AM
I have tried to keep track of the stroke rate vs. Distance Per Stroke and the theoretical speed depending on paddle size and board.
It is not Gospel as this is not measurement on a flat reservoir protected from the wind a la UGKM but subject to all kind of conditions with the exception of down-winding.

Interesting. Lots to think about here. Thanks for sharing this.

I would gladly send you the Excel file with the data if of any help of interest.

The near inverse relationship between stroke rate and stroke length is interesting. The key thing is to do a few multiple runs so the level of any error of your testing process can be determined (otherwise the error may be too great to be able to take the results as they are or that you'll find that it shows that one is statistically significant from the others).

This all said, the more we can see of this sort of testing, the better.
Title: Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
Post by: Luc Benac on September 18, 2018, 07:50:57 AM
The near inverse relationship between stroke rate and stroke length is interesting. The key thing is to do a few multiple runs so the level of any error of your testing process can be determined (otherwise the error may be too great to be able to take the results as they are or that you'll find that it shows that one is statistically significant from the others).

This is not really any form of testing but just data for my week-end paddles from May 2017 to now but limited to the three boards I am still using.
As I said, this is all kind of conditions, wind, tides, chop and so on just to give me an overall pictures in the conditions I paddle in.
In that sense, it is somewhat the opposite of your scientific testing in a controlled environment.

So for example, the stroke/dps data seems to mesh with the results I get paddling in open water:
* the Ace-GT with the Black Project Hydro 83 (84.5 sqi) - balance between stroke rate and dps and 
* the Vapor with the Black Project Hydro 78 (76.5 sqi) - easier to flick the paddle back to the catch and maintain some momentum.
I am sure that there are plenty of outliers with days and conditions where using the Mana 90 might be as effective and I most certainly like to use the Mana 82 for down-winding the Vapor but it kind of give me the overall picture compared over time.
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal