Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: Evan Lloyd on September 10, 2018, 10:37:01 AM
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Is it me or do the prone guys seem to move a lot faster that the guys on SUP? Logically it doesn’t make sense because both are flying the same foils, but when I watch the videos or see the guys out on the water, the prone foil surfers seem to be going way faster. Am I crazy?
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Evan, just in eyeballing the specs for different foils, it seems that the larger foils give up a couple of knots at the top end in exchange for earlier, low speed lift.
At the bottom of this article is a speed chart that may be of interest.
http://www.mackiteboarding.com/Foilboarding-Styles-Foil-Fridays-Ep-01/
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Not really, but it's not the boards, it's the foils. Most of the prone guys are on smaller, higher aspect foils. They take off on more critical waves, just as they do shortboarding, so the foil doesn't need to be big to hold their weight. My gofoil 280 feels like it hit the wall somewhere around 11mph. I've gone over 15mph on the IWA. Can't get my fat ass off the water with a Kai, but the folks that use them really fly. The Kai is still a low aspect wing, high aspect wings can create the same lift with less drag because they have less wingtip area to induce tip vortex. But high aspect wings are less maneuverable.
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I have started to process the 5 million data points I have from roughly 400 sessions on my TRACE.
Here is how the foil data is playing out. This represents the Speed data from 22 sessions measured 5 times a second JUST FOR THE WAVES e.g. no dead time.
The graphics are starting to tell the story on the speed profile of each foil. Here is how the KAI, IWA and Maliko 200 are playing out.
The MACKite data is within my bands of +/- 1 Standard Deviation of the Average buy my ranges are MUCH broader, as in the Foils can go faster than the MACKite guys are suggesting. But I suspect they are measuring speeds behind a boat. All my data is 100% measured from the Surf.
I am pretty sure NO ONE ELSE ON PLANET EARTH HAS THE DATA I AM SHOWING HERE.
This represents just 22 of the 150 sessions I have recorded on the TRACE.
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I am still processing this data but here is an interesting overlay.
All 3 Foils flown at 1 Surf Spot. Combined 17 sessions, 175 Waves, 24,700 data records measured in 1/5 per second increments.
Grouping by Speed Band this shows the percentage of time the foil is flying in that speed band. Granted each foil was flown in DIFFERENT sized conditions. But the speed banding shows how 'comfortably' the foils are flying in certain ranges.
The second graphic shows an isolation of a single foil set of waves. In this case JUST selecting the KAI foiled waves which would in this case were the bigger outside sets.
The KAI can fly fast (I weigh 185 lbs) but I have found that the IWA can fly nearly JUST AS FAST. And it will fly further in smaller waves.
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Is it me or do the prone guys seem to move a lot faster that the guys on SUP? Logically it doesn’t make sense because both are flying the same foils, but when I watch the videos or see the guys out on the water, the prone foil surfers seem to be going way faster. Am I crazy?
No you're not crazy, "prone" guys go faster, and farther.
I have first hand experience passing SUP foilers on the same wave. Their big boards slow them down, and their straps also slow them down. Holding the paddle slows them down too. :-\
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So, my SUP goes slower than your prone boards. Thank God! The speeds I am experiencing on larger waves are both scaring the shit and knocking the wind, out of me. It feels like I'm jumping out of a speed boat going 25mph. I trust I will become accustomed to this speed but am still preferring those waist to chest days on my big wing (IWA size).
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I have first hand experience passing SUP foilers on the same wave. Their big boards slow them down, and their straps also slow them down. Holding the paddle slows them down too. :-\
This makes NO sense. However I have several experiences lately that made no sense but were too close to true to argue.
It has to come down to weight and foil because the water doesn't otherwise care what is in the air.
I wish someone else was collecting data to compare.
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Actually, I thought about this some after Daily Bread's reply, and I suspect he's right about the board. And yes, Beasho, it's weight, but it's where the weight is that matters. Weight up at the nose of a SUP has to be compensated for with a little extra AOA and that means drag. I looked at a few pictures of foilers flying lunch trays, like Kai in a recent video where he's on a sub-3 foot board and some good sup foilers. In all cases, the SUPs are trimmed more nose-up than the lunch trays. If it were one or two examples I'd admit it could be shimming or mounting variation, but both the mental picture of weight on the end of a long stick and the actual pictures lead me to believe that a tiny board is a speed advantage because the foil can be trimmed for minimum drag.
And yes, I agree with SUPeter. The relatively ponderous pace of a 280 is comforting. An Iwa feels much more on the edge of control and falling off it is usually accompanied by several bounces and a thorough thrashing. Of course, falling off a 280 requires that you avoid the wing, which is as wide or wider than the board.
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I have first hand experience passing SUP foilers on the same wave. Their big boards slow them down, and their straps also slow them down. Holding the paddle slows them down too. :-\
This makes NO sense. However I have several experiences lately that made no sense but were too close to true to argue.
It has to come down to weight and foil because the water doesn't otherwise care what is in the air.
I wish someone else was collecting data to compare.
The reason this makes no sense to you is that in all your "scientific" analysis you fail to recognize the biggest factor of all, and that is the skill of the person surfing the craft. You assume the surfer is a dead weight just sitting on top of the board, which is definitely not true.
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Funny nobody addresses the foot straps and paddle issue. ???
So take 2 sprinters, both equally fast. Give one a cake to run with, holding with both hands and also tie his shoe laces together so he can only step forward a limited amount. The other guy isn't holding anything nor are his shoes tied together...
Guess who was faster?
Both holding the paddle and foot straps restrict movement.
And back to the board size topic.... I've ridden both prone and SUP foil boards in sizes ranging from 8'4" down to 4'10" and can speak from experience, whatever is forward of the mast impacts speed, lift, pitch, roll....end of story. If you are foiling on a SUP, you WILL ALWAYS have more volume than a prone board. This is why you will always be slower.
But this isn't drag racing, there's no trophy for being faster. It's all about having fun in the ocean. So lets keep that in perspective.
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Funny nobody addresses the foot straps and paddle issue. ???
So take 2 sprinters, both equally fast. Give one a cake to run with, holding with both hands and also tie his shoe laces together so he can only step forward a limited amount. The other guy isn't holding anything nor are his shoes tied together...
Guess who was faster?
What kind of cake is he carrying? Pound cake😉
But seriously, it should be all about having fun. Some think the longest ride is the shiz, some think the most consecutive waves in a row.
I’ve seen Nate here in this video many times and noticed that his technique is soooo smooth. He gets what he needs from each wave and then seamlessly heads back and repeats. If you watch him in videos his pumping is so subtle, Changing the AOA in small increments. I’ve seen him going back out to catch another ride much faster than he rides in.
Both holding the paddle and foot straps restrict movement.
YES!
And back to the board size topic.... I've ridden both prone and SUP foil boards in sizes ranging from 8'4" down to 4'10" and can speak from experience, whatever is forward of the mast impacts speed, lift, pitch, roll....end of story. If you are foiling on a SUP, you WILL ALWAYS have more volume than a prone board. This is why you will always be slower.
But this isn't drag racing, there's no trophy for being faster. It's all about having fun in the ocean. So lets keep that in perspective.
This video is kinda rough but shows the advantages of being smooth...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u127d-Ji25Q
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Funny nobody addresses the foot straps and paddle issue. ???
So take 2 sprinters, both equally fast. Give one a cake to run with, holding with both hands and also tie his shoe laces together so he can only step forward a limited amount. The other guy isn't holding anything nor are his shoes tied together...
Guess who was faster?
What kind of cake is he carrying? Pound cake😉
But seriously, it should be all about having fun. Some think the longest ride is the shiz, some think the most consecutive waves in a row.
I’ve seen Nate here in this video many times and noticed that his technique is soooo smooth. He gets what he needs from each wave and then seamlessly heads back and repeats. If you watch him in videos his pumping is so subtle, Changing the AOA in small increments. I’ve seen him going back out to catch another ride much faster than he rides in.
Both holding the paddle and foot straps restrict movement.
YES!
And back to the board size topic.... I've ridden both prone and SUP foil boards in sizes ranging from 8'4" down to 4'10" and can speak from experience, whatever is forward of the mast impacts speed, lift, pitch, roll....end of story. If you are foiling on a SUP, you WILL ALWAYS have more volume than a prone board. This is why you will always be slower.
But this isn't drag racing, there's no trophy for being faster. It's all about having fun in the ocean. So lets keep that in perspective.
This video is kinda rough but shows the advantages of being smooth...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u127d-Ji25Q
The kid is kinda boring but the dude in the red shirt has really good style.
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I suspect GP is talking about my leaping chicken style when he says some people's arm movements are clumsy. I have to hold my paddle in one hand to pump at all. And yeah, the guy in the red shirt has style all over that skinny damned kid--the little bugger looks like he's going to fall asleep. Let's see some effort there, Nathan.
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The trim has got to be it. As I look at pics of both it’s right. Also the movement makes sense. Easier to perfectly trim whereas yeah, the paddle is just sitting there. (Unlike regular SUS, weirdly, where it’s a critical tool.)
Forget his riding, how good looking is the guy in red? Is he some kind of model?
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The reason this makes no sense to you is that in all your "scientific" analysis you fail to recognize the biggest factor of all, and that is the skill of the person surfing the craft. You assume the surfer is a dead weight just sitting on top of the board, which is definitely not true.
Data Deniers the modern version of Luddites waving their hands and raising their voice when they see something that threatens them.
Ignorant AND Opinionated must be a beautiful way to go through life. 8)
On the topic of SPEED there is one factor that override everything and that is the size of the wave. I have an advantage both geographically and with data because Mavericks is my home break and I am the only person (other than Haley Fiske) that has attempted to paddle in under my own power at Mavericks on a foil. To do this transcends the skill and enters the realm of big wave surfing something few people are willing to consider.
There was a speed competition in March sponsored by Ocean Addicts in Australia. I was originally at the top of the list but the Australians would have none of that and started posting results. It was springtime here and the waves were not regularly pumping. Here were the results. Fastest wave Prone. :o I sat in 4th place.
If you look at the data I already posted (small sample) there was a wave that maxed out at 28.5 mph. This equates to 46 km/hr or 5% faster than anyone on the list. (This was prior to the competition so I did NOT submit it).
Fastest FOIL on Record - 8' 2" L41 SUP converted to Foil Board flying a Kai Foil (paddle in) - aka HEAVY clunky board & small foil. Note that my fastest wave on the IWA (Posted above) was 25 mph or 40 km/hr putting me in 3rd place with a big wing. And I haven't even mined all my data yet. But if you have better data, as I said, please share.
Link here:
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/Hydrofoil-Surfing-Speed-Competition
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When you say Mavericks are you talking about taking off at the peak or at Mushroom rock? I’ve been wondering if it is possible to foil the peak with a SUP. I’ve caught a few waves there many years ago and the speeds on an 11’ sup were tremendous. I imagine a foil would be crazy fast making the drop. You Mavs guys have my full respect.
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When you say Mavericks are you talking about taking off at the peak or at Mushroom rock?
Periphery of Mavericks. No one is close to foiling the peak. Much less during a crowded session. My foil rides have been taking off 200 to 250 yards outside of Mushroom Rock. Wave faces 10 to 14 ft. The key is to catch it on the edge staying FAR away from the drop.
The Bowl Proper would be ~ 450 yards outside of Mushroom.
Speeds on a SUP, without a foil, at Mavericks are typically 28 to 36 mph.
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Beasho, this Trace product does GPS ‘speed over land’ rather than speed through water right ?
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Yes, surffoils, it’s gps. Not a speedometer.
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So it’s quite likely that it’s not recording the correct highest speed due to the vertical component of riding larger waves.
Bottom line, On larger waves you’re more likely to be going faster than the GPS asesses.
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Ineresting observation SF. But since Beasho's real-world analysis is more anecdotal than scientific, this is probably a difference without a distinction.
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The reason this makes no sense to you is that in all your "scientific" analysis you fail to recognize the biggest factor of all, and that is the skill of the person surfing the craft. You assume the surfer is a dead weight just sitting on top of the board, which is definitely not true.
Data Deniers the modern version of Luddites waving their hands and raising their voice when they see something that threatens them.
Ignorant AND Opinionated must be a beautiful way to go through life. 8)
On the topic of SPEED there is one factor that override everything and that is the size of the wave. I have an advantage both geographically and with data because Mavericks is my home break and I am the only person (other than Haley Fiske) that has attempted to paddle in under my own power at Mavericks on a foil. To do this transcends the skill and enters the realm of big wave surfing something few people are willing to consider.
There was a speed competition in March sponsored by Ocean Addicts in Australia. I was originally at the top of the list but the Australians would have none of that and started posting results. It was springtime here and the waves were not regularly pumping. Here were the results. Fastest wave Prone. :o I sat in 4th place.
If you look at the data I already posted (small sample) there was a wave that maxed out at 28.5 mph. This equates to 46 km/hr or 5% faster than anyone on the list. (This was prior to the competition so I did NOT submit it).
Fastest FOIL on Record - 8' 2" L41 SUP converted to Foil Board flying a Kai Foil (paddle in) - aka HEAVY clunky board & small foil. Note that my fastest wave on the IWA (Posted above) was 25 mph or 40 km/hr putting me in 3rd place with a big wing. And I haven't even mined all my data yet. But if you have better data, as I said, please share.
Link here:
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/Hydrofoil-Surfing-Speed-Competition
Beash is right here. The data are telling a real story based on actual data. Beasho when I get up and going on my foil I will help you collect data.
Please keep collecting and posting.. Its amazing info.. and unique.
-red
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Well, you're right SF, sort of, but it doesn't matter because speed measurements are not absolute. Speed through the water can be measured relative to the water, and that means either a dragged prop or some other sensor that can measure that relative motion. Of course, that isn't any more precise or useful than a GPS in a current, or even with the varied and complex water velocities on the face of a wave.
A GPS is actually the most useful way to measure velocity (speed in a specific direction) though the flavor of speed measurement used in most current GPS systems is not as precise as it can be. Doppler speed measurement used to be available in handheld GPS units, but it's only used in speed-specific units today. Doppler measurement can be as accurate as +/- .01kts.
It seems like you're writing mostly of vertical displacement being added to speed. That doesn't happen with a GPS measurement. Height can be measured with a GPS, but vertical displacement isn't added to speed. For that matter, vertical displacement wouldn't be added to speed with a speedometer except as related to the current on the face of a wave, and that current isn't simply up the face, as it would appear to be from videos or experience.
Beasho's data is as good as anyone is likely to get.
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The easiest way to explain is that when you drop on takeoff, there’s a massive vertical acceleration,and the bigger the wave the greater the speed as you drop.
The greater the vertical drop the less likely a GPS will register it, so the 2D speed will say that you’re standing still which is not true.
I think we’ve all experienced waves that barrel furiously but are almost a standing wave because of the movement of water. But a GPS would say that your speed is almost nil.
I get that the GPS is a general positioning system and probably the most familiar system to use but because there’s such a 3 dimensional aspect to surfing you can’t accurately measure speed without measuring the speed through the water.
I think Beashos results would definately be higher with a flow gauge and GPS.
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Nope. There isn't. The acceleration of a surfer comes from wave energy being imparted to the surfer. Sounds like you think it comes from sliding down the hill. If that were true then surfing would be a very short, very slow ride--like skiing down a ten foot hill. A surfer in an overhead wave drops five feet or less vertically before he turns. Gravity alone gives him a speed of about 5 mph, but he's on the face of a wave moving at ten mph. As long as he is on the face of the wave there is energy being transferred to his board to accelerate him and make up for the drag. I would think foils would put this notion of sliding down a hill to rest even with folks that don't care much for physics since you can watch foilers downwinding for miles, traveling at speeds around fifteen miles an hour, without ever "sliding down the hill".
A barrelling wave, or any ocean wave for that matter, is traveling at a speed related to its period and the depth of the water. A surfer on it is carving a vector across the face, moving faster than the wave. It's not a standing wave. Yes, if you don't keep up your speed the water that appears to be moving up the face will carry you over the falls--but that's because the water is mostly standing still (actually it's moving in epicycles in the direction opposite to the way it looks to the surfer) while the wave energy is moving forward, and surfer is moving both forward and to the side.
The energy to propel him comes from transferring the wave energy, and his speed is the wave speed times the cosine of the angle he attains to the direction of travel of the wave. A GPS will show the speed the surfer is traveling correctly.
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On an OH wave I would drop about about 3 metres vertically but even at 2 metres or 6 feet thats a speed of 22kph or 14 mph. i know thats a freefall number but thats not an unusual feeling talking off on a prone/shortboard.
At somewhere like Mavericks i would guess theyre dropping 6 metres + but that vertical component is invisible to a GPS.
Its like saying a pilot in a vertical dive has no speed because theres no lat or long difference,the drop is where the greatest acceleration happens.
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Sometimes adding more data points simply clouds the analysis. The question you have to ask yourself is, will the additional data, in any significant way, improve the usefulness of the message? And if so, is the additional effort worthwhile?
On a personal note, I think Besho’s approach is very useful as is.
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Adding more data points improves analysis, that’s what analysis thrives on.....Data. Doesn’t it ?
Oh hang on... I get it...you guys are trolling me to avoid basic science.
Well done, I get the joke. Sorry I didn’t get it sooner !!!
Sure, surfing is done on a flat 2-D plane and vertical dimension is not measureable in the real world. Ha ha .
You had me believing you were seriously denying the third dimension.
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Apparently I don't understand what you're trying to communicate. The total speed of a surfer (considering every energy source) is the paddling speed, plus speed attained from gravity in the drop, plus speed imparted by wave energy transfer as long as the surfer is on the slope of the wave, minus drag. Other than movements up and down the face of the wave all that speed is measured by the GPS. I don't get your point.
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Let's call it horizontal movement vs vertical movement and ignore tangential thinking for the moment. The distance any prone or standup or foiled thing moves forward on a wave, towards the shore will be much greater that the distance that thing drops vertically. It may feel like a free-fall at some point (I know the feeling), but even that distance traveled vertically is only a small fraction of the distance traveled horizontally.
Here shown at Maverick's, this guy has almost no vertical drop (late!) at first. He's already traveling at the speed of the wave because his nose is down and it's grabbed him. In the second picture he has only dropped maybe 3' down the wave, but he's already traveled 40' towards the beach. By the last picture he's just about made it half way down the face of the wave, but he's still falling forward horizontally towards the beach, faster than he is vertically towards a total bummer wipeout.
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Adding more data points improves analysis, that’s what analysis thrives on.....Data. Doesn’t it ?
Oh hang on... I get it...you guys are trolling me to avoid basic science.
Well done, I get the joke. Sorry I didn’t get it sooner !!!
Sure, surfing is done on a flat 2-D plane and vertical dimension is not measureable in the real world. Ha ha .
You had me believing you were seriously denying the third dimension.
SF, just so I understand what you're getting at....
Are you trying to say that either "prone foil surfers" or "their SUP brothers" are traveling down the face of a wave on take off faster than the other?
Or is it just that because the drops always feel so much faster than the rest of the ride...that you think the very top speeds of both (during a "freefall" drop) are being miscalculated and understated?
I'm more surprised you're not questioning the validity of the numbers themselves, being that I surf with a guy who's registered speeds on his Rip Curl Search watch that he's shown me of 27, 38, and 46 mph on a Cloud Nine foil on a SUP!! :o
Now on the 27 mph run, I was on the same wave, and catching him until I turned away so as not to have a collision with him...and I'm pretty dang sure that I wasn't flying in excess of the 27 mph that would have been needed to make that happen. Just saying....
Now the fastest I've ever recorded on my Rip Curl Search watch has been 18.7 mph on an Iwa and 7'3" SUP, and that was just before the Iwa flew out of the water because I had no more lean forward to give it, and couldn't hold it down in the water any longer.
My other curiosity to go along with the board AOA thoughts already shared...is not only board size, but also where the mast is mounted on the board. I ask this because as I've said before, being I have one of the earlier foil specific boards, and my mast is 22" from the tail, which is about 2-3" too far forward according to the Go Foil site for that length of board.
When I look at all of the shorter prone foil boards, their masts are darn nearly on the tail, and I can't help but think these big differences has something to do with the AOA, and thus the flying speed differences of the boards.
I'd also be remise not to state that IMO rider experience has a lot to do with it also...as I've caught, and passed some less experienced prone foilers with no other equipment factors than normal to take into consideration than that. So there is that as another possible thing to take into consideration given Beasho's extensive experience compared to mine (at least in bigger surf if nothing else), and why he's able to find speeds I'm unable to at the moment. :)
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SSS, I do agree that the skill of the rider has a great factor in speed so I don’t think prone Vs SUP is possible to choose who’s faster.
The highest speeds are going to be found going down the wave and not up the wave and I think that if you’re only able to measure in horizontal movement then you’re not including the constant of gravity that would be a large component. So the speeds recorded are being miscalculated.
A larger wave travels faster in horizontal movement so the same surfer on a larger wave will go faster according to a GPS.
I’ve been through this on another forum and the speeds themselves are certainly questionable, is the speed momentary or sustained ? And for how long ? Momentary speeds could be attributed to swinging your arm forward so it registers a very high but brief speed, like throwing a ball out of a moving car. Or the refresh rate of the GPS itself. There’s a lot of variables that could create extraordinary momentary GPS speeds that aren’t correct like the 46 mph you mentioned.
On another forum a guy said he was travelling on a beach wave at a Sustained speed of 60 mph for 30 seconds but ignored that at such a high speed he would have travelled a distance that placed him up the beach and into the car park !
Theres so many variables that a top surf speed is going to be momentary.
But the winner on that forum was a guys GPS that registered on a weeks surfing in Hawaii a top speed of 980 kph while on the 747 getting there. 😀
Searching for a sustained top surf speed is something completely different.
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What I love about this topic is that we have at least introduced the concept of A Feedback Loop.
When people say "I was going fast." There is NO standard metric to compare.
- Therefore worthless unless you know the person really well, have surfed next to them . . . .
Having used my TRACE now for 3 years I know what it feels like to go 20 mph on the FOIL - AKA fast. I ride the waves. Note what felt REALLY, REALLY fast, go home and sure enough it was either slightly greater than 20 mph or it wasn't. Now I have my iWatch to calibrate against the Trace. The devices are usually close and NOT off by less <10%. The challenge with the iWatch (Dawn Patrol, Strava) and RipCurl is that they DON'T record more than 1X per second. Trace is running at 5 Hz.
NO ONE ELSE HAS THIS FEEDBACK LOOP ON THEIR SURFBOARD.
I would bet there are people that can look out the window of a car and know within a few MPH how fast they are going. Because they have swiveled their heads from the speedometer out the window 10,000's of times over 1,000's of hours incorporating the standard metric of MPH into their visual interpretation of speed.
SURFERS DON'T DO THIS.
PS: When I hit 30 mph I now know because my hair starts to sizzle. I go home, download the Trace and boom - There it is 30 mph. To do this is very hard and often requires a wave that is 18 feet or more and you have to go down the line to take advantage of PONO's Cosine factor.
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Adding more data points improves analysis, that’s what analysis thrives on.....Data. Doesn’t it ?
No, more data is not always better. The right data is the key.
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Let's call it horizontal movement vs vertical movement and ignore tangential thinking for the moment. The distance any prone or standup or foiled thing moves forward on a wave, towards the shore will be much greater that the distance that thing drops vertically. It may feel like a free-fall at some point (I know the feeling), but even that distance traveled vertically is only a small fraction of the distance traveled horizontally.
Here shown at Maverick's, this guy has almost no vertical drop (late!) at first. He's already traveling at the speed of the wave because his nose is down and it's grabbed him. In the second picture he has only dropped maybe 3' down the wave, but he's already traveled 40' towards the beach. By the last picture he's just about made it half way down the face of the wave, but he's still falling forward horizontally towards the beach, faster than he is vertically towards a total bummer wipeout.
Exactly. The movement from gravity in a typical wave is five feet. Most surfers turn across the face pretty quickly unless they are in a wave that is too big to permit that. The drop down the face yields acceleration both from gravity and from the momentum of the wave. Once you turn across the face it's all wave energy. If you don't turn across the wave and just go straight you outrun the wave a little, because by the time you reach the bottom you've added some velocity from the acceleration of gravity to the wave velocity and the velocity you paddled in with. And then you slow down quickly because there is nothing to overcome the drag, and the wave runs you over.
As far as I can tell from reread everything SF has posted, he believes that few feet of travel is somehow very significant in the overall speed gained. And that just isn't so.
If nothing else, look at the wave machine videos. 2000 foot long rides at 18mph in a pitching wave that's five feet high. The vertical motion of the riders might be two feet.
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Two years ago I posted about board speed. The thread is here:
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=29071.0
I was convinced that SUP's were faster than surfboards. I would go out surfing with 4 laydown guys, 1 of which had a RipCurl watch, and I would record speeds 20% faster than they would 100% of the time. They NEVER came close. Boom! SUP is Faster.
Then one of my surf kid mentee's mom asked me what to get her son Morgan for Christmas - A Trace! He was a good kid and would paddle out into bigger conditions than most of my adult friends. We once looked back at the cliff at Rockies and there were 15 guys checking out the conditions wringing their hands. Wave faces were 11 to 16 feet. Just Morgan and I in the lineup. I said "Morgan what do you think of all those people on the cliff?" The 15 year old responded without hesitation "I think they need bigger balls."
A set wave comes I take off wide of Morgan. We both catch the same 15 ft wave and he has a TRACE. It was a fast one. I was on a 10 ft SUP he was on an 8' laydown gun taking off 20 yards deeper than I was "On the Shoulder."
Later that day I download my data and see 28.3 mph. I call Morgan and say "What did your Trace read, what was your fastest wave?"
His answer "28.3 MPH" We check the times - Same wave. No-Way! Lightbulb moment.
The wave is moving forward like a train. It will move at 20 mph and whether you ride a Big Wave Gun or the Hood of a Volkswagon you will go exactly 20 mph if you go straight.
You can wiggle, waggle, put in 'Laser' fins on pintails and without the Wave-Train you are dead in the water. Once you have the wave train you need to add distance over time and this means - Turn Down the Line.
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Morgan and I probably got lucky with the exact same speed but we at least we were using the same device to measure speed.
PonoBill and I went back and forth many moons ago on this topic. In the end we were in violent agreement. PonoBill is usually right and is somewhat like a big brother if I get dusted up in an argument with a neanderthal or a troll. He was once wrong about Tail Handles but that's another story :o
I do owe him for 1) My Kenalu Paddle 2) The Paddle mount that I use for most of my video 3) The inspiration for my Fat-Tire electric bike 4) He sent me his TRACE when mine died . . . . - Thank you PonoBill.
At the end of that 'Speed on a Wave' thread I drafted this visual. Short of Jamie Mitchell dropping on a 60 ft face at Belharra (e.g. adding big vertical component) the speed you travel on a wave is a function of 1) Horizontal Wave Speed 2) The angle you can maintain down the line.
With regards to the topic at hand: Turning down the line is something that Foils are REALLY good at in SMALL waves, the lower drag means higher angle down the line, better riders less Angle of Attack on the foil . . . . Chances are that FOILS are good at it in BIG Waves too aka Laird Hamilton's tow in Foil. The rest of the world is just starting to figure all of this out.
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Oooh, infographics, what fun! But yeah, that's about it. I'm wrong twenty times a day. My sole advantage is that I'm never married to a viewpoint. Someday, someone might demonstrate conclusively that Pat Robertson talks directly to God, and I'll have a huge problem swallowing it. Other than that I'm always happy to change my mind. As Sam Pa'e will verify. I call that "learning". Seems to be an outdated concept in 2018 USA.
Oh, and you forgot drag. Well, you didn't forget it, but it's what determines what angle you can hold. 50 degrees is about the maximum for any surfboard except while it's being pumped. I did the math on that once and it's almost like the speed of light. If drag reduces your speed while you are trying to hold too tight an angle you will go over the top of the wave.