Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: Surfside on August 18, 2018, 03:27:52 PM
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This looks awesome:
https://www.facebook.com/HydrofoilReview/videos/306221933268753/
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It does. And if it works better and catches on we can all install another set of plate mounts in front of the mount we have, or just sell all our gen 1 foil equipment. ;).
This sport is crazy to watch.
I like the way it seems he’s moving things but man the angles look even higher stepress than a straight foil.
Beasho, what say you?
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I like it, it makes sense too. I'm going to model it in Fusion 360 and rotate the stuff to see what the dynamics are. If nothing else the wing and stabilizer are moving in ellipses when the board is pitched and turned. That oughta do sumpin'
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We foil regularly with Ron Stack the inventor of these "angledfoils", and he has lots of experience with foils from his air chair, and wake board foil fame...and did this angled foil concept on his wake boards back almost 20 years ago...
Ron’s next board was the best one I have ever ridden. He thought that having the foil mounted under his rear foot was making him work too hard. His back leg got tired quickly, and it was not the right positioning to control the board equally with both feet. He thought it would be much better to mount the foil between the feet. But because the wings still needed to be under the rear foot, he slanted the t-bar at a 45-degree angle. He used a fiberglass front wing, and lighter weight aluminum for the foil assembly. The foil worked great and it was the lightest air board either of us had ever ridden. I rode for many hours on that board, training to use it for the 1999 World’s Greatest Skier Competition at Cypress Gardens.
(https://i.imgur.com/MxEFWfW.jpg?1)
Several months he started talking about trying it for a surf foil, and has now making his own angled mast/fuselage combo that he fits to Go Foils wings of various sizes.
Moving the mast mounting point further up on the board changes the pivot point from under the rear foot to between both feet, which make it turn much more responsive, and quicker than the mast/pivot point further back on the the board...but the front wing in the exact same spot relative to the board and surfer on both....
https://www.instagram.com/p/BmoDtyZlXyM/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
...centers everything under the rider, and not the wing under rider but mast under rear foot which makes it feel more "shortboard" surf like, and not the more cruiser, longer carver longboard turns the straight mast foils feel like.
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Hmmm, Dave Daum design?
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Wow. Any links to buy one?
Cheers!
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Interesting.
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Wow. Any links to buy one?
Cheers!
Not that I'm aware of. Might give Dave a call..... https://www.kingspaddlesports.com/collections/foils
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Hmmm, Dave Daum design?
In the clip from top down...
Dave Daum board (6'6"x28")
Ron Stack "angledfoil" mast/fuselage
Alex Aguera Go Foil Iwa front wing, and stabilizer.
Hope that helps.
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Wow. Any links to buy one?
Cheers!
You can DM "angledfoils" at instagram (https://www.instagram.com/angledfoils)...
angledfoils
Interested in a angled mast for your current wings? Or a complete set up using gofoil or kingspaddlesports wings ? Let me know check @airboomron too!
....or PM me, and I'll have Ron get in contact with you...or Dave Daum can put you in touch with him as well.
He has several left in stock as sets or individual mast/fuselage...
(https://i.imgur.com/llg43cJ.jpg?1)
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Boy that just looks smart.
I don't know the math but wouldn't this angle require some extra reinforcement at the attachment point on the board?
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Fishman, I thought that too. I’m betting it varies with what’s going on but generally I’d think that it’d be pulling on those front bolts pretty hard. Pono will tell us.
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Horue foils are made like that.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QjUbbtSNR3Q
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Boy that just looks smart.
I don't know the math but wouldn't this angle require some extra reinforcement at the attachment point on the board?
Not so far. :)
Been several months on the board in the clip above, with I'm not gonna (can't even) guess how many hours of use on it, and the attachments look like the first day he threw it on. But still relatively new all things considered so time will tell.
But my question to both you, and surfcowboy....
Fishman, I thought that too. I’m betting it varies with what’s going on but generally I’d think that it’d be pulling on those front bolts pretty hard. Pono will tell us.
...is why do you believe there'd be anymore pressure(s) against the attachments, when the "angle of incidence" (thanks Robert), and the "angle of attack" of the wing is unchanged...and the thought that there is less drag on/from the angled mast than the vertically upright one?
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Horue foils are made like that.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QjUbbtSNR3Q
Interesting, but not really "like that"....
Angled yes, but in the other direction, and the rider's rear foot is still completely on top of the mast (pivot point).
But looks cool, and curious if anyone knows Horue's thoughts or theories behind angling it forward like that?
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Damn! Now I have to build more masts. This shits driving me nuts.
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I owned the Horue a few years ago. Their Tuttle head does have a tab on it to help with lever load
I sold it because it could not handle the high direct loads from kiting well powered. The angled mast would twist off, making the nose of the board twitch sideways.
It did not do this windsurfing. Probably because it was designed for windsurfing and windsurfing doesn’t load the mast in the same way as kite racing does.
Anyway, the point being, angled masts are something I’d sit back and wait on.
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im not jumping in to foilworld just yet, and now i feel like you all have an issue to sort out before i take the multi-1000 dollar plunge..........
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But my question to both you, and surfcowboy....
...is why do you believe there'd be anymore pressure(s) against the attachments, when the "angle of incidence" (thanks Robert), and the "angle of attack" of the wing is unchanged...and the thought that there is less drag on/from the angled mast than the vertically upright one?
In general "IF" your load doesn't change (The wing and the person positions), then moving the attachment points would change the torque at those points. Just like adding a 1 foot extension on a 1 foot long wrench will double your torgue at the connection point.
Looking at that Horue mast being the opposite direction looks like it would add more tension to the back bolts.
Like Surfcowboy says, "there's a lot going on", so really it's hard to tell. Moving the attachment point forward could actually be less stress overall. no problems so far so i wouldn't worry about it. Ether way this design really looks like it's a great performer.
More videos please :)
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im not jumping in to foilworld just yet, and now i feel like you all have an issue to sort out before i take the multi-1000 dollar plunge..........
Haaaaa!
1) From an engineering standpoint the design is TERRIBLE! Cantilevered structures, things with long arms that bend, are stress creating nightmares. The Go Foil design is only marginally better but it seems to work.
2) This guy is GOOD! But he apparently has 100's or 1,000's of hours on a foil. And he is still NOT flying like the Hawaiians in the video below. I am using Austin Kalama as the barometer on where I want to be.
3) He is using foot-straps. People will debate the use of foots-straps but then jump on the bandwagon for a whole new foil design.
4) If you are on the fence I can un-reservedly recommend the combo pack of Go Foil Iwa and Maliko 200. It will satisfy 90% of the conditions you will experience on the East or West Coast of the US for people weighing 170 to 220 lbs. Put a box in an old 8 to 9 ft SUP, learn for 6 months, and then step up and buy a good board later.
https://youtu.be/wjm403E8qV8
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Sano, the angled mast applies leverage to the baseplate that a straight mast, with a weight pressing down, simply doesn't. Both still have all the force of drag, but the angled mast places the rear attachments under compression and the front under tension from the weight of the rider alone. It can certainly be engineered to deal with the added forces. I might double up on the front bolts. I wouldn't stick it in a tuttle.
I think it looks like a great idea, but it can only be applied to a custom board given that stock boards are designed for a vertical mast with the wing placed just in front of the mast on a short fuselage. I suspect it's worth that added complexity but the market is unlikely to adopt it. For a standard mast, your back foot has to be planted on the mast base in order to get body center of mass over the center of lift. Windsurf foils move the foil forward with a long fuselage, but this sucks a bit since the long fuselage separates the wing and stabilizer with such a long moment arm--watch windfoilers do their turns--long and sweepy. I'm reasonably certain that Horue angled the mast that way so they didn't need a long fuselage to get the wing in the right place. Works for windfoils but not for kites since kite foil setups already have the mast located in a reasonable position. Remember that Windfoils started off using the existing fin Tuttle, and of course, the board designers are now designing for foils that were designed for boards with the Tuttle in a shitty place, so they keep putting it way back in the fin location. Market momentum.
What I like about this design is the potential for moving both feet a bit. Centering my considerable mass over the wing without stretching my legs 30 inches apart seems like it would be good for pumping. I'm having so much trouble getting my fat ass of the water in Hood River that anything that appears hopeful looks good to me. I'm always ready to believe I can buy a little competence.
I'm completely ignoring what Austin does. I saw him doing some shit on a skateboard this weekend that would send me straight to the ER. Darned kids.
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Pono and Beasho, you’re hired. ;)
The cantilever is the thing. If you push down on a straight mast, you’re stressing all four bolts the same. You add stress when you press on your front foot.
On this design there’s no place to stand that relieves the forces. Not saying it won’t work, but it does add complexity as was said.
I still like it and suspect it’s more rideable for the reason Pono says.
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Sano, the angled mast applies leverage to the baseplate that a straight mast, with a weight pressing down, simply doesn't. Both still have all the force of drag, but the angled mast places the rear attachments under compression and the front under tension from the weight of the rider alone. It can certainly be engineered to deal with the added forces. I might double up on the front bolts. I wouldn't stick it in a tuttle.
I think it looks like a great idea, but it can only be applied to a custom board given that stock boards are designed for a vertical mast with the wing placed just in front of the mast on a short fuselage. I suspect it's worth that added complexity but the market is unlikely to adopt it. For a standard mast, your back foot has to be planted on the mast base in order to get body center of mass over the center of lift. Windsurf foils move the foil forward with a long fuselage, but this sucks a bit since the long fuselage separates the wing and stabilizer with such a long moment arm--watch windfoilers do their turns--long and sweepy. I'm reasonably certain that Horue angled the mast that way so they didn't need a long fuselage to get the wing in the right place. Works for windfoils but not for kites since kite foil setups already have the mast located in a reasonable position. Remember that Windfoils started off using the existing fin Tuttle, and of course, the board designers are now designing for foils that were designed for boards with the Tuttle in a shitty place, so they keep putting it way back in the fin location. Market momentum.
What I like about this design is the potential for moving both feet a bit. Centering my considerable mass over the wing without stretching my legs 30 inches apart seems like it would be good for pumping. I'm having so much trouble getting my fat ass of the water in Hood River that anything that appears hopeful looks good to me. I'm always ready to believe I can buy a little competence.
Thanks PB, that's great information, and advise....I'll definitely pass it along to the inventor/creator of it.
I'm completely ignoring what Austin does. I saw him doing some shit on a skateboard this weekend that would send me straight to the ER. Darned kids.
Yes, agreed. Hard to compare a "50 something+, over the peak" foiler to a "20 something just coming into his prime" foiler to determine if a new "whatever" into the sport makes it slightly better, the same, or heaven forbid worse.
It would be interesting to get an Austin, Kai, or like talent on one to see what kind of difference it may or may not make for them as a real test if it's a game changer or not I suppose. Those who've already been on it say it's definitely a lot different...
And a "50 something+" guy's able to get a little air....
(https://i.imgur.com/lXXzG6U.jpg?1)
...w/o breaking board...and/or body parts in the process. ;) :)
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Anyone have the lowdown on the Angledfoil?
Is modifing our own foil a option, or are they only doing certain brands?...
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Right now they make the top adapter plate that bolts to the their aluminum mast, that bolts to the lower adapter that mounts their fuselage to the mast. They a different fuselage to fit the Go Foil or Kings wings...most are using their current wings, but I think he can get either to make a full foil set if need be...I think. :-\
That said, I've heard/seen that others have made their own attempts at angled mast foils...but to date, haven't seen an vids from any of those folks actually flying them. So yes, you could possibly modify your own foil as an option also.
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THX Sanyo, good to read that it relived some stress on your knee also. My knee has just started giving me some problems.
Are you (or anyone) using your anglefoil without foot straps?
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Horue is simply aiming to get the wing into the proper position with a short fuselage. Oops, I guess I already said that. I hate it when that happens.
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THX Sanyo, good to read that it relived some stress on your knee also. My knee has just started giving me some problems.
Can't say for sure that it's a sure fire cure for rear knee foiling pain woes, just that it was for me which was a big, unexpected benefit. So I wouldn't be looking to go with it for just that reason alone, as it just might be a coincidence with the way I ride the two differently that benefits myself, but not a universal benefit to everyone or anyone else. :-\
Are you (or anyone) using your anglefoil without foot straps?
I'm not aware of any right now. I only run a front strap though, after trying a front and rear briefly, and not really getting what I needed the rear strap for....since I like to move my rear foot around a lot (relatively speaking), and the rear strap kinda made me feel trapped.
There was/is one guy who ran it strapless (but he's gone back to his straight mast, he says "just temporarily", but we'll see), and he seemed to fly it just fine w/o them.