Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: burchas on August 11, 2018, 06:15:39 PM
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Working on improving my current unlimited all water design. After hundreds of miles in almost
every possible condition I thought I could improve flat water speed, downwind and upwind capabilities,
while keeping the dimensions and features of the current shape which I really love.
My gut told me that most of the improvements I was aiming for were hidden in the rocker so I went with
that and I think I got it, What do you think?
The new design is 16'x25"x7.1" @ 267L VS 16'x25"x6.9" @ 251L on the 1st model.
New rocker (tail/nose) is 2.8"/8" VS 3.2"/7" on the 1st model.
With the new rocker I managed to get:
1) Half a foot of extra waterline with a longer flat section for added speed.
2) Improved entry rocker to work better in in upwind/downwind situations
3) Keeping the nose section lower than the older model to maintain cross-wind behavior
4) Adding some extra needed volume in the tail and nose sections.
See screenshot below for the diagrams of new vs old (image name describes content).
I'll appreciate any feedback/insight you might have :)
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Dude, new custom board again? ;D ;D this one we’ll have to test on a good winter Maliko day 8)
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I cannot comment from a technical point of view but the v2 rocker/nose looks nicer and we all know than nicer is faster.
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Downwind unlimiteds are not my forte, but I understand unlimiteds. If I were to brake it down into components it might help make a clearer picture of what you are trying to achieve. The 'Waterline' you refer to is really only applicable in flat water. You're right in thinking the longer the contact, the faster it will be. But downwinding is more surfing than it is flat water paddling. If you look at the area that is in contact with the water all the time, I would call that part A. Then look at the rockered nose section and call that part B. For the A section I would prefer a lower, but continuos rocker. They are on the fastest flat water unlimiteds. The part B is what comes in contact when you smack the bottom of a trough. Too little and the nose will tend to pearl. Too much and it will smack the trough flat and slow you down. So for the part B you want more rocker but not too much. You want it to skip like a thrown stone. This gets more complicated as you factor in the nose width and shape. A pointed sharp nose is the fastest in flat water, but will pearl and dive one way or the other when you hit the bottom of a trough. The wider rounded nose plane and slide either way without grabbing. In flat water that wide nose will plow water and throw off an obvious bow wake which just kills the speed.
So a flat water unlimited will have a continuous rocker nose to tail, whereas a downwind will have a continuous rocker throughout part A and an increased rocker in part B. As I see it, to make it faster in flat water you need to lengthen part A and shorten part B. There will be a point were it's too much low rocker for downwinding. Of course the size of the bump in your area dictates how much you need.
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For the A section I would prefer a lower, but continuos rocker. They are on the fastest flat water unlimiteds.
That makes sense. Your comment would have me believe that with longer waterline,
my new rocker which is more continuous and lower in the tail, along with a more parallel
outline and a boxier pintail would land me a faster board compared to my current one.
I'm actually fairly satisfied with my current board speed wise in flat water, it makes a great
touring board for the most part so any improvements will just make it even more pleasant.
So for the part B you want more rocker but not too much. You want it to skip like a thrown stone.
This gets more complicated as you factor in the nose width and shape
I believe the same applies for upwind and that's why I chose this wide nose and entry rocker,
also added some volume there to support the behavior.
downwinding is more surfing than it is flat water paddling
That's the part that makes it a challenge, downwinding is a lot about maneuvering as well.
My current board is really maneuverable, better than many 14's I've paddled. I believe that
this "break" in the middle has a large contribution to that along with a more pulled in tail
outline and higher tail rocker and fin placement at 38 inches off the tail.
With the new and more continuous rocker, fin placement is at about 30-32 inches off the tail.
along with a more pulled out tail outline and lower tail rocker I'm not sure how much
maneuverability I'm sacrificing? That's key since it is a rudderless board.
I wonder how much I can compensate with rail shape without interfering with other aspects?
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downwinding is more surfing than it is flat water paddling
That's the part that makes it a challenge, downwinding is a lot about maneuvering as well.
My current board is really maneuverable, better than many 14's I've paddled. I believe that
this "break" in the middle has a large contribution to that along with a more pulled in tail
outline and higher tail rocker and fin placement at 38 inches off the tail.
With the new and more continuous rocker, fin placement is at about 30-32 inches off the tail.
along with a more pulled out tail outline and lower tail rocker I'm not sure how much
maneuverability I'm sacrificing? That's key since it is a rudderless board.
I wonder how much I can compensate with rail shape without interfering with other aspects?
I've thought about this a lot. Maybe the simplest way to break it down again is to look at how you plan on steering this big board. I've finished race in the surf with a lot of different unlimited boards. Never a ruddered one. The boards with flatter to even double concave mid to tail bottoms, surfed straight in. I have one now that I can slightly turn on a wave. These flat bottom boards also tend to have the fin 12 to 16 inches from the tail. Definitely a surf setup. They track well in flat water with this back placement. The problem is in the bigger open ocean swells, the fin comes completely out of the water and you can feel the classic twisting board under feet sensation.
Now if you had a rudder system, you don't need hard rails with a flat bottom to steer. The rudder does the bulk of the steering but you still want a little lean and steer. Open water boards tend to have their fin boxes and or rudders more forward. Definitely in the 30" range. Even further forward if the board is 19' or 20' long.
So if you are not installing a rudder, you'll need a bottom and rail that will turn the board while you are "semi-planing" on a bump.
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Here are some snapshots I took from Robert's (Blue Planet Surf) 2018 M2M video. Robert's unlimited BP board has a long (Part A) water line with a pretty large (Part B) nose rocker. Then look at the NSP (I think Travis Grant ) with a disk looking boof or more snub nosed board. Almost the entire length of the board is Part A. Part B is just a round skipping stone. Very innovative.
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Here's the actual video. Mahalo Robert.
https://youtu.be/G7j12q0YkPg
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Robert's unlimited BP board has a long (Part A) water line with a pretty large (Part B) nose rocker. Then look at the NSP (I think Travis Grant ) with a disk looking boof or more snub nosed board. Almost the entire length of the board is Part A. Part B is just a round skipping stone. Very innovative.
Tested this 17'11 One dugout recently and it was an excellent gliding vs stable DW board. Entry forward cut the water nicely without much splash. It could be a one quiver board for any conditions -> including flatwater paddling. In 25 it was very stable and could go to 24 without much issue depending on what type of use was envisaged. Side profile rocker has some similarity -> but the other design aspects make this board really special. Much more versatile than the very stable surf nosed splashy Bullet 17.4 standard. Paddles like a dream comparably and is very maneuverable with its rudder. So much that it felt like a much shorter board. Bit pricey tho. $6000 Cdn.
https://www.deepcoveoutdoors.com/product/onesup-unlimited-dugout-17-paddle-board/
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The boards with flatter to even double concave mid to tail bottoms, surfed straight in. I have one
now that I can slightly turn on a wave... So if you are not installing a rudder, you'll need a bottom
and rail that will turn the board while you are "semi-planing" on a bump.
Thanks for that! That was very reassuring and supporting the direction I was going with this
board. (see pic for the slice located just ahead of the fin as 35" inches before turning into "V")
I have slight double concave mid to tail with rail steering support for maneuvering the board.
Never worried about tracking as I can configure the board with one of my LA 4 fin setups to
go in straight line forever if needed ( really good for long touring in shifty conditions).
I saw the videos with those dugouts and your explanation of part A and B resonates better,
That's pretty much what I do with my Standamaran, minor adjustments to stance but never
fully surf stance (couldn't even if I wanted too ;) ), if that what you meant by "semi-planing".
This will not be applicable for this board as it is an All Water board. Being a low volume 16'
(267L) I assuming it will surf just like a 14'? With that in mind, I added flat sections both
mid board and tail to make it easier to go on a plane rather than make real continuous rocker
as it tend to have harder time planing, especially on low energy stuff if I understand correctly?
All Water for the conditions this board is designed for means that I have to expect a good 30kn
downwinder to shift into a "cross-winder" so I wouldn't entertain one of those dugouts unless I
plan on one of those shifty downwinders to turn into a vacation in Europe ;D
These shifty conditions really requires me to get creative on how and where to add the volume
I need for downwind/upwind without sacrificing a really efficient cross-wind behavior.
This is really what triggered my new design as the current board really excels in shifty conditions
but starting to struggle when conditions really becomes big downwind/upwind.
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Isn’t the “fairly flat and long part A” added to a sizeable nose rocker (part B) pretty much what Harold Iggy did with the Naish Glide Mk1s (14ft and 17ft), about 10 years ago - I’m not sure how innovative this approach is? If that is the case then the shortcoming of departing from continuous rocker may be that occasionally the board can be unpredictable because basically you have two different board concepts stuck together.
How does an UL board with a heavily rockered boof nose go upwind? That’s a lot of volume and surface area to be pushing into wind and chop.
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https://www.deepcoveoutdoors.com/product/onesup-unlimited-dugout-17-paddle-board/
Good find Eagle! as one would expect from a raptor ;)
On the surface and in profile there is a lot of similarity but if you look at the details,
this dugout has more than a 100L volume than my design. In reality it will render this
board useless for my purposes if you read my comment above.
As one would expect, there is no mention for cross-wind anywhere on the page.
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The 25 One has a pretty narrow and clean entry which is not the typical splashy boof. You do not feel the nose rocker slowing you down much at all. Was very surprised how much glide that board had for so much bulk. Was around 30 lbs -> and neg can see would be hoisting it overhead to load on a rack.
Did not try it in a cross wind situation so cannot comment on that. But can say it felt more like a canoe vs a board. Overall it had a really nice ride -> and could see using that board for most all conditions we get here if limited to only a single quiver option.
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Isn’t the “fairly flat and long part A” added to a sizeable nose rocker (part B) pretty much what Harold Iggy did with the Naish Glide Mk1s (14ft and 17ft), about 10 years ago - I’m not sure how innovative this approach is?
Harold Iggy is one of my idol shapers. He found the magic. I study what works and what doesn't. Always keep an open mind. The innovation I was referring to was Travis's board. I didn't see anyone else paddling a board with that nose. It's a little different from the other boof nose boards. The rounded nose looks more like a fat longboard shape. It almost looked like an inflatable at first. I'd like to see it up close.
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I was wrong about that NSP board being Travis Grant. It looks like it was another team rider on maybe a 14' sonic, not an unlimited.
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Tested this 17'11 One dugout recently and it was an excellent gliding vs stable DW board. Entry forward cut the water nicely without much splash. It could be a one quiver board for any conditions -> including flatwater paddling. In 25 it was very stable and could go to 24 without much issue depending on what type of use was envisaged. Side profile rocker has some similarity -> but the other design aspects make this board really special. Much more versatile than the very stable surf nosed splashy Bullet 17.4 standard. Paddles like a dream comparably and is very maneuverable with its rudder. So much that it felt like a much shorter board. Bit pricey tho. $6000 Cdn.
https://www.deepcoveoutdoors.com/product/onesup-unlimited-dugout-17-paddle-board/ (https://www.deepcoveoutdoors.com/product/onesup-unlimited-dugout-17-paddle-board/)
There already seem to be several 14' boards that seem to be at least quite good for at least most conditions. Seeing boards like this one--versatile design in UL length--is pretty exciting. If they could move one of those zeroes on the price to in front of the six I'd get one for sure.
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If you have the chance look at the constant rocker of a Bark Vapor. It does look a lot like the side view of your V2.
Most of the new dug-gout UL when you see them live are pretty damn big, deep and heavy. The opposite of your design in a way.
That is one of the reason I really value my Ace-GT. UL but light, lower volume.
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If you're only using it for flat water, you want to have as little board above water as possible. Just cut wind from any angle out of the equation. In a little chop the water floods over the top of my flat water UL and it doesn't slow it down a bit. The total bottom makes contact tip to tail. I went a ton of volume years ago, then shaved every little bit off that I could. The closest board I've seen to my flat water UL is the SIC FX16 pro. Stretch the FX16 four feet longer, narrow it an inch, and it'll look exactly like my flat water UL. I'm starting to understand the benefits of added volume in the open ocean.
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Stretch the FX16 four feet longer, narrow it an inch, and it'll look exactly like my flat water UL. I'm starting to understand the benefits of added volume in the open ocean.
Funny you should say that. My FX 12.6 was my starting point about 2 years ago when I started
thinking about an all-water design until I realized some volume was missing in some key places.
Thanks a bunch! Appreciate the insights.
Will see how this one turns out once I finish contemplating...
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For crosswind I find a low volume, low windage board is key.
If you can try out something like Creeks 14’ Sunova Search as see. Obviously extreme but they work better than you may think.
I like your ski jump nose. I like them even sleeker (less boof). Especially for upwinds in waves I find a nose like a JL Rail pierces and carries through with less braking than noses with higher volume. Same goes for if you happen to poke a nose riding DW. The angle of the ski jump nose lifts the board right back out rather than volume. Which allows you also less boof so therefore less windage when going cross wind.
My favorite boards for upwind are the Rogue DW and JL Rail. I find a board with a lot of rocker up front like a Bullet V1 get slapped by waves and get the brakes slammed on.
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For crosswind I find a low volume, low windage board is key...
I like your ski jump nose. I like them even sleeker (less boof)...
I'm with you on that. It's hard to see it from the diagram but this is really low
volume board.
My current one is 251L for a 16 footer. Think about it for a sec, It is so thin you could
actually do the thing you like the most, carving ;)
The new one is going to be 267L, so not much more, but volume is distributed
slightly better and the nose rocker as I imagine it, will behave the way you described
which is exactly how I would like it to behave and hopefully it will.
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Also, what I've learned recently from riding lower rocker boards like the Bayonet and the
downtown as well is that the sharp entry and extra volume helps a lot to manage he nose
and maintain speed when poking into waves.
Unlike those boards though, which maintain thick rails throughout the nose section,
I took a lot volume out and lowered the apex line in order to give it better angle rounding
up towards the top stringer.
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This is as low of volume as I could go for my weight. Notice how tight I got it to water line. No windage and slippery fast. It's a flat water UL for sure. Zero wake.
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This is as low of volume as I could go for my weight. Notice how tight I got it to water line. No windage and slippery fast. It's a flat water UL for sure. Zero wake.
Sleek
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Stretch the FX16 four feet longer, narrow it an inch, and it'll look exactly like my flat water UL. I'm starting to understand the benefits of added volume in the open ocean.
Funny you should say that. My FX 12.6 was my starting point about 2 years ago when I started
thinking about an all-water design until I realized some volume was missing in some key places.
Thanks a bunch! Appreciate the insights.
Will see how this one turns out once I finish contemplating...
All I can say, is that I want one :-) if I could afford it. A 16' Vapor-like board would just thick all the boxes as my main board for the Spring/Summer.
Winter touring would still stay with the Ace-GT.
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This is as low of volume as I could go for my weight. Notice how tight I got it to water line. No windage and slippery fast. It's a flat water UL for sure. Zero wake.
Sleek
Sleek indeed. Just the way I like it
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I like it!