Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: Steve R. on August 09, 2018, 12:15:42 AM
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The new mast is 29" tall featuring a kai, Iwa, and M200 foil package.
The taller mast has become a real game changer here on Maui.
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I'm starting to see/believe that the taller masts are the ticket (haven't tried one yet), and in the current board I've having being made currently, I'm going with mast tracks instead of the Tuttle box just to get the added 3" of the adaptor to lengthen the mast as much as I able to at this point.
So are these new masts (and I'm assuming fuselage) available by themselves in a retro kit, or is this just a new mast option available when you buy the whole package deal including wing(s)? If they're available separately, I may just go, and throw a Tuttle in between the two tracks, and order one from you...if the price with shipping is right of course. ;) :)
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Gofoil offers also a 28,5 mast with plate.
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The tall tuttle masts are only available as complete kits.
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Saw Rod Parmenter at the Event Center this afternoon, he has one of the new masts. Substantially more chord as well as 5" longer. He also has the new sleeker M200.
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Yes, thank you. In the mean time, I figured it'd be just easier if just spoke with Karla, and she filled me in on the same. We also talked about the plate adaptors adding about 3-3.25" to the height of foil to board, and the custom mast adaptor Alex is doing in his shop that's available, and will add approx. another 3" if I wanted to get that much higher.
Had already decided to go with mast tracks, and plate adaptor in the new board I'm having made, and will play with that added distance before seeing if I will go to the mast extension adaptor...or just buy a whole new complete set of foil, and wings.
But thanks for getting back to me...much appreciated.
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why a game changer?
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why a game changer?
Taller masts let you crank turns over much harder without breaching wing tips. More radical surfing for sure.
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While this is exciting the lack of interchangeability from GoFoil is unacceptable. And I am one of GoFoil / foilings biggest advocates.
Each iteration of the foil alone is costing $1,500 to $2,000.
Meanwhile the boards are changing EVEN Faster than the foils.
That said if any of your are thinking about it for SUP:
#1 Choice is the GoFoil IWA. It will work for you in anything from 4 to 10 feet.
#2 Maliko 200 - Great for 2 to 5 ft waves for people from 150 to 240 lbs.
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Saw Rod Parmenter at the Event Center this afternoon, he has one of the new masts. Substantially more chord as well as 5" longer. He also has the new sleeker M200.
Forgive my ignorance but what's a Chord, and does that mean less flex?
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chord is the the measurement from the leading edge to the trailing edge. a longer chord should in theory mean a stiffer mast
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While this is exciting the lack of interchangeability from GoFoil is unacceptable. And I am one of GoFoil / foilings biggest advocates.
Each iteration of the foil alone is costing $1,500 to $2,000.
Meanwhile the boards are changing EVEN Faster than the foils.
That said if any of your are thinking about it for SUP:
#1 Choice is the GoFoil IWA. It will work for you in anything from 4 to 10 feet.
#2 Maliko 200 - Great for 2 to 5 ft waves for people from 150 to 240 lbs.
How about around 200 pounds surfing 2 to 3 foot waves?
Is there a limit as to how small (and junky) the waves can be?
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Is there a limit as to how small (and junky) the waves can be?
Hahaha I think there is. I tried with the Maliko 200 for a total of 2 miles according to the GPS and couldn't get going. The wave in the rear that's breaking is because of a shallow 2' deep sandbar. Though I really suck at this, there just wasn't enough push to get me up.
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chord is the the measurement from the leading edge to the trailing edge. a longer chord should in theory mean a stiffer mast
Thanks, I'm just about ready to purchase my first foil, I'm leaning Gofoil also, it would be nice to get this newest mast with the combo, I hope it comes out soon.
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chord is the the measurement from the leading edge to the trailing edge. a longer chord should in theory mean a stiffer mast
Your definition is correct but longer chord doesn't necessarily do anything for stiffness. As an example, a longer piece of paper isn't stiffer than a shorter one but if you take the same piece of paper & roll it into a tube is a lot stiffer...perhaps not the best example but the camber along the cord has more to do with stiffness. Generally, more camber is stiffer than flat camber. If their mast has the same camber as before it won't be stiffer due to longer chord alone.
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what would you advise for a newbie 155 lb person looking for small waves 9once it gets over head high I will be on my regular sup for sure)
While this is exciting the lack of interchangeability from GoFoil is unacceptable. And I am one of GoFoil / foilings biggest advocates.
Each iteration of the foil alone is costing $1,500 to $2,000.
Meanwhile the boards are changing EVEN Faster than the foils.
That said if any of your are thinking about it for SUP:
#1 Choice is the GoFoil IWA. It will work for you in anything from 4 to 10 feet.
#2 Maliko 200 - Great for 2 to 5 ft waves for people from 150 to 240 lbs.
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longer chord doesn't necessarily do anything for stiffness.
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If their mast has the same camber as before it won't be stiffer due to longer chord alone.
I will politely disagree. The stiffness of the mast should go up roughly linearly with the chord length. So if it is 20% longer chord, than it will be approximately 20% stiffer assuming the same camber sectional shape. Now, if the camber gets thicker, the stiffness can go up profoundly - something like the cube of the increase (20% more camber could equal 1.2^3 = 1.73 = 73% stiffer).
However, since the mast is longer, the overall stiffness goes down dramatically - roughly inversely proportional to the cube of the length. So 29" is 11.5% longer than 26" and the stiffness will go down by about 28% because of that.
Did I lose you all yet? sorry about the geekfest.
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oh - forgot to mention that all those numbers are for bending stiffness. Torsional stiffness matters too, and that'll go up by the cube of EITHER the chord or the camber increase. And it only goes down linearly with length. So it is possible that for torsion about the axis of the mast, the new masts are significantly stiffer.
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oh - forgot to mention that all those numbers are for bending stiffness. Torsional stiffness matters too, and that'll go up by the cube of EITHER the chord or the camber increase. And it only goes down linearly with length. So it is possible that for torsion about the axis of the mast, the new masts are significantly stiffer.
Good point about the torsional stiffness, that's actually what I was referring to. My education is in aviation but I'm not an aeronautical engineer BUT I actually did have this exact conversation with an aeronautical engineer a couple of weeks ago & he explained that it's a common misconception that chord length affects stiffness. He showed me (with equations) why. I don't remember the exact details but I believed him, he's done design work for military drones, etc. & he's also owned a composites company for over 30 years so I figured he knew better than I. So I can't provide details & it's a topic difficult to find through Google searches but that's what I was told. We're currently trying to achieve more torsional stiffness with our masts & that's what lead to the conversation.
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what would you advise for a newbie 155 lb person looking for small waves 9once it gets over head high I will be on my regular sup for sure)
IWA - One stop shop
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longer chord doesn't necessarily do anything for stiffness.
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If their mast has the same camber as before it won't be stiffer due to longer chord alone.
I will politely disagree. The stiffness of the mast should go up roughly linearly with the chord length. So if it is 20% longer chord, than it will be approximately 20% stiffer assuming the same camber sectional shape. Now, if the camber gets thicker, the stiffness can go up profoundly - something like the cube of the increase (20% more camber could equal 1.2^3 = 1.73 = 73% stiffer).
However, since the mast is longer, the overall stiffness goes down dramatically - roughly inversely proportional to the cube of the length. So 29" is 11.5% longer than 26" and the stiffness will go down by about 28% because of that.
Did I lose you all yet? sorry about the geekfest.
I didn't think that sounded correct for anything much thicker than paper either. If nothing else, it's just more material, and viewing it as a set of polygons--more polygons--each of which resists bending. If you consider the center of force to be the middle of the mast then there is also more leverage to the longer chord, both for the force and for the resistance, so those cancel each other somewhat. So I could see the numbers going either way. I happen to have some mast shapes drawn in Fusion 360, so I blew up the chord length and let the software do the engineering analysis. Holding the thickness to the same value, the torsional and lateral stiffness increases a little less than linearly. Keeping the camber shape the same (which makes the mast thicker) increases both torsional and lateral stiffness quite a bit more. I don't know the mathematical relationship since I only did a couple of tries and didn't try to fit a formula, but I'd expect it to be some exponential value.
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what would you advise for a newbie 155 lb person looking for small waves 9once it gets over head high I will be on my regular sup for sure)
Combo IWA/M200.
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Deriving the torsional stiffness of a beam is a somewhat complicated undertaking. Here is a good write-up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_constant
The hard part is to derive the torsion constant for the foil shape of the mast cross section. Below is an image which shows how to do this (note that K in the image below is the same as J in the wikipedia article = the torsion constant).
(https://i.imgur.com/2DFWLWM.png)
Does anyone know the exact dimensions of the old and new cross section? I'm happy to do the math - this is fun for me. (chord length and thickness would be all I need)
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I'll find out. Rod has one.