Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: ukgm on August 03, 2018, 01:12:02 AM
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I've been asked to put together a video of my experiences testing/paddling a 21.5 width race board. Knowing how much is relative when it comes to paddling any board, what sort of things would you like discussed when reviewing such a board ?
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What would you want to know ?
How much fun you're having in chop.
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What would you want to know ?
How much fun you're having in chop.
Quite. In light of the fact I can only just about apply 100% on water that's like a window pane with the 21.5 with S'board Sprint, I have pretty low expectations of that one ! ;D
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How it is compared to the narrowest (22.5/23.5") all-water boards, in particular with small chops in flat water.
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When are you selling it?
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I would want to know how the board comes with trying to pass someone closely in a race. So please can you show you pulling out from behind a paddler who is going at a decent pace, and passing them? I find that some boards are much better than others at coping with this particular situation.
Also, please compare 200m sprint times on the 21.5” with times on a 23 or 25. I have a theory about planing surface...
Thanks very much.
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When are you selling it?
I've just got back from day 2's paddle with it. I have to put a few braces in and my stroke would need complete retooling with it. I put in one of impromptu paddles over one of my flatwater time trial courses. Placebo's aside, I would say I was only able to apply about 95% of full power (and I'd already done a 2 hour hard bike session that only finished an hour before it) but I obliterated my course record by nearly 5%......
My worst fears have been born out - This board is probably beyond most of us (I don't believe I could race it in a large mass start) but the free speed on offer is basically frightening compared to my 24.5 Allstar and has reduced most boards that are wider to being dinosaurs. It would be a one way purchase though - you'd never be able to sell this on. It's where you realise that you've seen the future and you're not part of it. :(
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How it is compared to the narrowest (22.5/23.5") all-water boards, in particular with small chops in flat water.
In the last 2 days I have only encountered cross wake from slow moving pleasure boats but the board seems to cope ok. The primary stability isn't great but I actually think this means the chop bothers it less than you expect. Mind you, I do believe that I've spent so much time in my surf ski recently (whereby loose hips are essential to maintain balance) that this has cross pollinated back when I'm on a SUP.
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I would want to know how the board comes with trying to pass someone closely in a race. So please can you show you pulling out from behind a paddler who is going at a decent pace, and passing them? I find that some boards are much better than others at coping with this particular situation.
Also, please compare 200m sprint times on the 21.5” with times on a 23 or 25. I have a theory about planing surface...
Thanks very much.
Good point. I might see if I can find someone in the morning and try that.
I take it your theory is that the larger planing surface might actually be better ?
(by the way, I should add that I'm well beyond the weight spec of this board but no, I still can't turn this thing without risking a dip).
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When are you selling it?
I've just got back from day 2's paddle with it. I have to put a few braces in and my stroke would need complete retooling with it. I put in one of impromptu paddles over one of my flatwater time trial courses. Placebo's aside, I would say I was only able to apply about 95% of full power (and I'd already done a 2 hour hard bike session that only finished an hour before it) but I obliterated my course record by nearly 5%......
My worst fears have been born out - This board is probably beyond most of us (I don't believe I could race it in a large mass start) but the free speed on offer is basically frightening compared to my 24.5 Allstar and has reduced most boards that are wider to being dinosaurs. It would be a one way purchase though - you'd never be able to sell this on. It's where you realise that you've seen the future and you're not part of it. :(
LoL
Hang in there, mate. I'm guessing if you use only that board in all conditions in about a year you'll get pretty good at it. And in another even better.
It'll also do wonders to your motivation to stick to a strict diet.
Meanwhile, I'll have another beer. I'm safely in the DW class and sticking to it until I get my eFoil.
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...
(by the way, I should add that I'm well beyond the weight spec of this board but no, I still can't turn this thing without risking a dip).
Take advantage of the summer months to practice.
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"... I would say I was only able to apply about 95% of full power (and I'd already done a 2 hour hard bike session that only finished an hour before it) but I obliterated my course record by nearly 5%......
My worst fears have been born out - This board is probably beyond most of us (I don't believe I could race it in a large mass start) but the free speed on offer is basically frightening compared to my 24.5 Allstar and has reduced most boards that are wider to being dinosaurs..."
Yep. For sure the Sprint 21.5 is a spear with insane glide and efficiency. Which is no comparison at all to the 24.5 All Star on flat. Even my AS23 is a complete slug comparably. But go ahead and try it in some chop and slop -> and my 23 or even your 24.5 becomes the right board.
For guys like Boothy who have raced a lot on this in all conditions. The Sprint 21.5 is the right choice. He can even drop down. But also think heavier Larry Cain has been on this board for a couple of years now. Really sweet board on flat. I really like it as you know.
Edit: The 21.5 Sprint that I was thinking about getting a little while back -> looks to be now sold. ;)
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Interestingly was out on the weekend with some friends trying out my various boards. Buddy was on the 30 Touring pin for a couple of miles and did surprisingly well overall. Only fell in once getting hit behind from some big boat wakes spinning and broaching him.
Then he tried the 27.5 Dom -> and found that more stable. So goes to show everyone is different. He also found the Bullet V2 and M14 less stable. Another noob young guy in his 20s also found the M14 quite unstable. He being an ok surfer. Weights were around 200 and 180.
Think that after time on a narrower board you just adapt to the tip -> plus refine and clean up your technique. Kinda similar to surfskis. Is very surprising especially since you did not think you could drop from your M26 and improve your speed by much a year ago. The 21.5 Sprint at 95% power giving you a 5% gain over your 24.5AS -> is simply massive after only 2 tries. You should be quite a happy camper. Maybe a 23 Sprint is in the cards for next year. ;)
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Don't forget to polish every day. It's faster.
https://youtu.be/978uQUK231M
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Best to stick to your slow single quiver DW board yugi. ukgm actually is a very good racer looking for more speed. Try one and see what you are missing before spewing your BS. ;D ;D ;D
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How it is compared to the narrowest (22.5/23.5") all-water boards, in particular with small chops in flat water.
In the last 2 days I have only encountered cross wake from slow moving pleasure boats but the board seems to cope ok. The primary stability isn't great but I actually think this means the chop bothers it less than you expect. Mind you, I do believe that I've spent so much time in my surf ski recently (whereby loose hips are essential to maintain balance) that this has cross pollinated back when I'm on a SUP.
^ Yep 100%. ;)
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In some ways -> the surfski balance vs power has maybe allowed Boothy to progress so fast to become one of the top elite in SUP. Diff is he has very good upper body strength vs many of his surf SUP peers. Surfski will give you that advantage big time. Now that he has the SUP technique and balancing upright on point -> he can kill on flat. Question is how well he does in waves. There Connor and Mo and Kai etc seem to have the advantage with their surf etc backgrounds.
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We can all paddle 21.5” wide boards on our own and on flatware. Hell, even I managed a couple of miles on one without falling, and my balance is hopeless.
Completely different matter dealing with 21.5” in the midst of a race, especially an ocean one. How the top guys like Travis manage to get almost every stroke perfect and the same under those conditions is the thing that is really amazing to me.
But this is just the start. We’ll be at 18” wide in no time. Watch a 10 year old get on a narrow board for the first time. They find it as hard as anyone else. But the difference is that 30 mins later they can be doing cartwheels on it. You can almost see their brain and vestibular systems adapting to the new demands by the minute. Once the kids can get their hands on these new narrower boards that are cast-offs from their parents, we are really going to see things change.
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Yep. I put a 12 yo on my AS23 a couple of years ago. He balanced fine on it. Then put his brother who was 11. Both had no probs at all.
Even put my son at 200 on it -> and he balanced ok last year. So going to 21 and less for the top guns who do this as a living should be expected.
Before 21.5 was over the top narrow -> but now not so much. ukgm has seen the light. Question is -> will something a bit more stable like the 23 Sprint give him the speed he needs to move up the ranks and keep him interested in racing? Hmm?
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When are you selling it?
I've just got back from day 2's paddle with it. I have to put a few braces in and my stroke would need complete retooling with it. I put in one of impromptu paddles over one of my flatwater time trial courses. Placebo's aside, I would say I was only able to apply about 95% of full power (and I'd already done a 2 hour hard bike session that only finished an hour before it) but I obliterated my course record by nearly 5%......
My worst fears have been born out - This board is probably beyond most of us (I don't believe I could race it in a large mass start) but the free speed on offer is basically frightening compared to my 24.5 Allstar and has reduced most boards that are wider to being dinosaurs. It would be a one way purchase though - you'd never be able to sell this on. It's where you realise that you've seen the future and you're not part of it. :(
LoL
Hang in there, mate. I'm guessing if you use only that board in all conditions in about a year you'll get pretty good at it. And in another even better.
It'll also do wonders to your motivation to stick to a strict diet.
That's my current dilemma. I was only testing this for a laugh but even my buffoon balance leads me to wonder whether i could train myself into competency with this board.
I think I've abandoned the idea of getting an Allstar 23.5, its just not competitive enough and enough of a change from where I am. The 23 sprint might be enough and has the volume for my weight. I'm actually 4Kg too heavy for thre 21.5 spec so I don't know what the impact of that means. Any ideas ?
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Question is -> will something a bit more stable like the 23 Sprint give him the speed he needs to move up the ranks and keep him interested in racing? Hmm?
A 23 would be perfect with todays form (plus I might be able to lay my hands on one) but do i go all in and just go for the 21.5. Its a great board to paddle when you're going fast but it's terrible when you're not. It requires 100% attention at all times.
The tracking and paddling biomechanics of a narrow board are just fabulous.
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1) Completely different matter dealing with 21.5” in the midst of a race, especially an ocean one. How the top guys like Travis manage to get almost every stroke perfect and the same under those conditions is the thing that is really amazing to me.
2) But this is just the start. We’ll be at 18” wide in no time. Watch a 10 year old get on a narrow board for the first time. They find it as hard as anyone else. But the difference is that 30 mins later they can be doing cartwheels on it. You can almost see their brain and vestibular systems adapting to the new demands by the minute. Once the kids can get their hands on these new narrower boards that are cast-offs from their parents, we are really going to see things change.
1) This is now my dilemma. Yeah, I can move this thing at 9.5kph+ no problem but there is no way I could race this thing in a bunch. However, just how trainable is that at age 43 and only paddling SUP twice a week ? Having spoken to a friend of mine on Starboard's roster, he told me that it took him until a board this narrow for him to break the 10kph average speed barrier in a race.
2)..... which is why I wonder if I should go down the 21.5 route now just to try and keep up and see which way the wind is blowing. 20 must surely be imminent but I'm not sure how narrow we could go before biomechanically it doesn't make any sense to go further.
I wonder if a stopgap might be to drop a ventral fin in one to slow the primary stability roll down a bit (which is horrendous).
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How it is compared to the narrowest (22.5/23.5") all-water boards, in particular with small chops in flat water.
In the last 2 days I have only encountered cross wake from slow moving pleasure boats but the board seems to cope ok. The primary stability isn't great but I actually think this means the chop bothers it less than you expect. Mind you, I do believe that I've spent so much time in my surf ski recently (whereby loose hips are essential to maintain balance) that this has cross pollinated back when I'm on a SUP.
Nice. It's good to know that one can train his balance to be able to paddle a 21.5" wide board, even for a big guy like you. :)
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How many more hours do you plan to spend on this board? Would be interesting to observe the learning (balance) curve.
Although you might eventually switch to a slightly wider board, this could still be beneficial as a sort of training, I reckon.
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Question is -> will something a bit more stable like the 23 Sprint give him the speed he needs to move up the ranks and keep him interested in racing? Hmm?
A 23 would be perfect with todays form (plus I might be able to lay my hands on one) but do i go all in and just go for the 21.5. Its a great board to paddle when you're going fast but it's terrible when you're not. It requires 100% attention at all time.
The tracking and paddling biomechanics of a narrow board are just fabulous.
100%. If in your shoes would go for the 23 Sprint and get familiar with that board in slop and chop over the next race year. Then drop to the 21.5 once proficient. It took me about a year to get used to the quick roll on my AS23 if that helps. But still after 2 years -> getting hit with reflected chop and slop from the side really slows me down. So get used to that first plus mass start chopped up waters.
A ventral should def help tho. ;)
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Question is -> will something a bit more stable like the 23 Sprint give him the speed he needs to move up the ranks and keep him interested in racing? Hmm?
A 23 would be perfect with todays form (plus I might be able to lay my hands on one) but do i go all in and just go for the 21.5. Its a great board to paddle when you're going fast but it's terrible when you're not. It requires 100% attention at all time.
The tracking and paddling biomechanics of a narrow board are just fabulous.
100%. If in your shoes would go for the 23 Sprint and get familiar with that board in slop and chop over the next race year. Then drop to the 21.5 once proficient. It took me about a year to get used to the quick roll on my AS23 if that helps. But still after 2 years -> getting hit with reflected chop and slop from the side really slows me down. So get used to that first plus mass start chopped up waters.
A ventral should def help tho. ;)
I suspect you're right. Plus I'm pretty sure I could sell on a 23 inch wide board (or have more of a chance than I would with the 21.5 which would be extremely difficult).
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How many more hours do you plan to spend on this board? Would be interesting to observe the learning (balance) curve.
Although you might eventually switch to a slightly wider board, this could still be beneficial as a sort of training, I reckon.
No more than I do now (which is 2-3 sessions and no more than 4 hours per week total).
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The narrowest Allstar is 22.5 but is only 258L and only rated to paddlers of upto 70Kg. The 23.5 is only rated to 80Kg (and I'm 88Kg). The only viable option I could see anyway is a 23 sprint or to chance the 21.5 (85Kg limit). My brass ones say 21.5 but my head says the 23 is probably smarter. I could sell the 23 on and give that 100% full power now.
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"My brass ones say 21.5 but my head says the 23 is probably smarter. I could sell the 23 on and give that 100% full power now."
Haha! Maybe get polishing them like in the vid. Nah. JK. Pure torture I can assure you in slop and chop. The 23 Sprint should give you what you are needing at the moment. ;)
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How many times do you paddle a week ukgm? I think if you got all the time in world like boothy you can do it on that 21.5 board.
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The narrowest Allstar is 22.5 but is only 258L and only rated to paddlers of upto 70Kg. The 23.5 is only rated to 80Kg (and I'm 88Kg). The only viable option I could see anyway is a 23 sprint or to chance the 21.5 (85Kg limit). My brass ones say 21.5 but my head says the 23 is probably smarter. I could sell the 23 on and give that 100% full power now.
...or a 2019 All Star 23.5" if it is an option :)
- 2018 All Star 22.5": 258 L, rider weight up to 75 kg
- 2018 All Star 23.5": 318 L, rider weight up to 80 kg
- 2019 All Star 22.5": 272 L, rider weight up to 75 kg
- 2019 All Star 23.5": 327 L, rider weight up to 85 kg
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How many times do you paddle a week ukgm? I think if you got all the time in world like boothy you can do it on that 21.5 board.
No more than I do now (which is 2-3 sessions and no more than 4 hours per week total).
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At 43, ukgm, and paddling as infrequently as you do, your balance abilities are not going to improve radically. Sorry. You’ll improve a bit. But not so much that a 21.5” board will feel to you like a 24” wide one does now. At your age, most of the improvement is going to come from technique, experience, good preparation, self-knowledge and planning. Those are formidable weapons in your arsenal. But radical changes in balance ability of eg. 10-20% are unlikely. If you were a teenager or younger they’d be extremely likely. Damn kids :)
But don’t give up yet. You’ve got another dozen years or so before you need to do that. Just don’t ask me how I know this ;)
If you are really fit you could always try racing Dave Kalama on a foil. He’s about 10 years older than you. So you should be able to kick his ass, right? Especially in a sport (foiling) that puts so much emphasis upon balance, which decreases so fast with age. So, there’s always that to aim for, to make you feel good about your physical prowess as the kids go motoring past :)
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At 43, ukgm, and paddling as infrequently as you do, your balance abilities are not going to improve radically. Sorry. You’ll improve a bit. But not so much that a 21.5” board will feel to you like a 24” wide one does now.
I agree with you to a point. I've done a fair bit of reading recently and you realise just how bad footwear is for us but also how the foot can be strengthened. In our case, its a question of restoration, not enhancement. I think at our age, as you say, its going to be diminishing returns. However, my N=1 recent experience is that heavy use of Vibrams (all day use and supplemented with strength/conditioning work) has been a revelation (coupled with surf ski work).
Interestingly, I know of two paddlers of a similar age who only paddle 2-3 times a week who have made the transition to a narrower board but they really forced the issue by doing their paddling on rough waters than they'd race on (as others have suggested earlier in this thread0.
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Vibrams? You mean five fingers?
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Vibrams? You mean five fingers?
Yep.
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Vibrams? You mean five fingers?
Yep.
Since you already use the Vibrams, try and use them for the purpose it was created for.
Bare-foot running style did wonders to my ability to handle narrow boards in rough water
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You didn't do much barefoot before?
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You didn't do much barefoot before?
Mixed but certainly not in winter. However, it’s not using five fingers with my board that’s helped - it’s wearing the shoes doing everyday tasks and weights work that has really helped. Sustained use seems to the key in my view, not just an hour here or there.
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I think if you really want the icing on the cake on that 21.5 board get a personal trainer like paddle monster, larry cain or training with boothy.
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You didn't do much barefoot before?
Mixed but certainly not in winter. However, it’s not using five fingers with my board that’s helped - it’s wearing the shoes doing everyday tasks and weights work that has really helped. Sustained use seems to the key in my view, not just an hour here or there.
Surely the principle here is just to go bare-footed as much as possible? I don’t believe that the Vibrams will help you more than going bare-footed, and if they help, it is because they allow you to approximate bare-footedness more often (in a cool climate like the UK). Virtually every serious Watersports person I know wears shoes as little as possible around the house and doing daily tasks.
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You didn't do much barefoot before?
Mixed but certainly not in winter. However, it’s not using five fingers with my board that’s helped - it’s wearing the shoes doing everyday tasks and weights work that has really helped. Sustained use seems to the key in my view, not just an hour here or there.
Surely the principle here is just to go bare-footed as much as possible? I don’t believe that the Vibrams will help you more than going bare-footed, and if they help, it is because they allow you to approximate bare-footedness more often (in a cool climate like the UK). Virtually every serious Watersports person I know wears shoes as little as possible around the house and doing daily tasks.
Absolutely. Yes. However, in my own case I can wear them for my job too so I can rack up huge hours either bearfoot or pseudo bearfoot. The key is to be in that situation when performing functional and multi-directional loaded tasks, not just sitting around the house.
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I think if you really want the icing on the cake on that 21.5 board get a personal trainer like paddle monster, larry cain or training with boothy.
This is probably a different thread but as an aside, I don’t consider most current online based training as decent coaching. To be honest, I’d definitely value their technical insight on a 1:1 technical skill basis (particularly Larry) but in terms of the coaching skill itself or understanding the science or training prescription, I’ve found very few ex or current athletes have the abilities, knowledge or skills required. Coaching is a skilled profession in itself and in many sports I cross paths with, there are too many good athletes now setting themselves up as ‘coaches’.
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"The key is to be in that situation when performing functional and multi-directional loaded tasks, not just sitting around the house."
Yep going completely barefoot has been very beneficial overall. But Vibrams do help for running and weight training and quick transition traction etc. Other zero drop minimalistic brands like Inov-8 and Vivo are good for mtn trail running and wet weather running. Would suggest running completely barefoot to get the proper technique down. As Vibrams actually deaden ground feel a huge amount comparatively.
"Running without shoes on changes up your activation patterns, making you stronger from the ground up. You'll have improved hip function, more gluteus maximus activation, a better range of motion at the ankle and greater involvement from all of the supporting muscles/joints in your lower
body," says Nike Performance Council Member Lance Walker, MS, PT, global performance director at Michael Johnson Performance. "Going barefoot can also shrink your stride length by about 3 percent, which increases running economy and efficiency."
"Transition into natural running gradually, decreasing support and increasing mileage slowly. Your body has to adapt to this type of training and will become stronger one step at a time."
https://www.nike.com/us/en_us/c/running/nike-run-club/myths/barefoot-running
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^Exactly.
The emphasis is on running. Sure all the walking around is good
but the running part had the biggest impact for me.
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"The key is to be in that situation when performing functional and multi-directional loaded tasks, not just sitting around the house."
Yep going completely barefoot has been very beneficial overall. But Vibrams do help for running and weight training and quick transition traction etc. Other zero drop minimalistic brands like Inov-8 and Vivo are good for mtn trail running and wet weather running. Would suggest running completely barefoot to get the proper technique down. As Vibrams actually deaden ground feel a huge amount comparatively.
"Running without shoes on changes up your activation patterns, making you stronger from the ground up. You'll have improved hip function, more gluteus maximus activation, a better range of motion at the ankle and greater involvement from all of the supporting muscles/joints in your lower
body," says Nike Performance Council Member Lance Walker, MS, PT, global performance director at Michael Johnson Performance. "Going barefoot can also shrink your stride length by about 3 percent, which increases running economy and efficiency."
"Transition into natural running gradually, decreasing support and increasing mileage slowly. Your body has to adapt to this type of training and will become stronger one step at a time."
There has been some research that has countered Nike's opinion but I struggle to believe it. Common sense for me is that natural selection and a few millions years of evolution will have demonstrated that we do not need 2 inches of PU foam and gait management to be more efficient at motion. We have what we need. The only question mark with all of is that the human being was never designed to run marathons. We were designed to catch or elude other beings over relatively short durations.
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The only question mark with all of is that the human being was never designed to run marathons. We were designed to catch or elude other beings over relatively short durations.
I disagree.
I’m more inclined to believe the “Endurance Running Hypothesis” of human evolution.
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I think running barefoot is a fairly integral part of being a waterman. We’re used to being barefoot and have all had that long barefoot run back to home base after an epic fail. I’ve run barefoot long ways back plenty of times after a windsurfer equipment fail or getting caught out in a storm SUP’ing. Even silly things like waterskiing and running out of gas.
Very young (less than 10) my mom took me to a foot specialist Dr. His advice was to let me be barefoot and run barefoot as much as possible. I was thrilled, of course. This was in the 60’s BTW, so it’s nothing new (duh!).
The sons of a swiss mountain town yoga teacher here go barefoot year round. Never wear shoes nor flip flops. It’s a town where there is snow on the ground 4 months a year and for a month or 2 in winter regularly falls below -10 C (14F) occasionally below -20 C (-4F). They take the train and have about a mile to the station. I see them regularly. Impressive. They shrug it off and say they always did it and are just used to it.
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The only question mark with all of is that the human being was never designed to run marathons. We were designed to catch or elude other beings over relatively short durations.
I disagree.
I’m more inclined to believe the “Endurance Running Hypothesis” of human evolution.
Thanks for that mention - it's a contentious concept but I'm adding that to my reading list to find out more. Very interesting.
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The only question mark with all of is that the human being was never designed to run marathons. We were designed to catch or elude other beings over relatively short durations.
There is lots of good research to the contrary. In the grand scheme of the natural world, we are lousy sprinters. Virtually all large mammalian predators and prey can outsprint humans. Gradually wearing down hooved animals has been well described and documented.
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"Transition into natural running gradually, decreasing support and increasing mileage slowly. Your body has to adapt to this type of training and will become stronger one step at a time."
There has been some research that has countered Nike's opinion but I struggle to believe it. Common sense for me is that natural selection and a few millions years of evolution will have demonstrated that we do not need 2 inches of PU foam and gait management to be more efficient at motion. We have what we need. The only question mark with all of is that the human being was never designed to run marathons. We were designed to catch or elude other beings over relatively short durations.
Actually know a buddy who runs in races about 100 kms. Training only in the past couple of years pretty much as a non-runner before. So the body can adapt to run distances exceeding a single marathon. It seems we can catch animals over relatively long durations if we really have to. ;)
https://youtu.be/826HMLoiE_o
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The only question mark with all of is that the human being was never designed to run marathons. We were designed to catch or elude other beings over relatively short durations.
There is lots of good research to the contrary. In the grand scheme of the natural world, we are lousy sprinters. Virtually all large mammalian predators and prey can outsprint humans. Gradually wearing down hooved animals has been well described and documented.
Off thread I know but it certainly made interesting reading. Whilst the theory makes sense to me, the counter arguments in the research are that:
1) the effect has been failed to be seen in tribes or isolated pockets of humans since then (thereby its not clear if it really would have existed in the past).
2) that it is equally possible that humans instead scavenged carcasses.
3) that early humans were actually ambush predators, not long distance hunters (which was always my preferred option).
There are papers on google scholar (with PDF's) that anyone can open to read. https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Endurance+Running+Hypothesis&btnG= It's great stuff.
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"Transition into natural running gradually, decreasing support and increasing mileage slowly. Your body has to adapt to this type of training and will become stronger one step at a time."
There has been some research that has countered Nike's opinion but I struggle to believe it. Common sense for me is that natural selection and a few millions years of evolution will have demonstrated that we do not need 2 inches of PU foam and gait management to be more efficient at motion. We have what we need. The only question mark with all of is that the human being was never designed to run marathons. We were designed to catch or elude other beings over relatively short durations.
Actually know a buddy who runs in races about 100 kms. Training only in the past couple of years pretty much as a non-runner before. So the body can adapt to run distances exceeding a single marathon. It seems we can catch animals over relatively long durations if we really have to. ;)
Ultramarathons. You really do get natural selection there as racing of distances upwards of 50km+ really does select those who can do it and breaks the bodies of the rest. I think I'd have to hide in a bush somewhere and wait for a passing gazelle.....
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Speaking of distance running how crazy is this event?
https://utmbmontblanc.com/en/page/23/23.html
Just to help put that into perspective:
If you finish in only just within the time limit that means you've averaged climbing more than from Everest base camp to summit every day for 6 1/2 days in a row. Hellooooo!
Oh, and it's find-your-own-way. Unmarked and often no trail.
The start is in 3 weeks.
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Last weekend, I had the opportunity to try the Fanatic 14x21.5. Incredible stable for the width unlike the Starboard Sprint 14x21.5. It was just a quick test to see if I can stand on it without falling into the water. And it worked pretty well, although it was quite wavy. But under racing conditions certainly no chance with my size and weight. Actually, not much more tippy than the lightcorp/nelo. The Starboard Sprint 14x21.5, on the other hand, was a disaster for me.
I did not fall in the water, but it was very very tippy.
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Last weekend, I had the opportunity to try the Fanatic 14x21.5. Incredible stable for the width unlike the Starboard Sprint 14x21.5. It was just a quick test to see if I can stand on it without falling into the water. And it worked pretty well, although it was quite wavy. But under racing conditions certainly no chance with my size and weight. Actually, not much more tippy than the lightcorp/nelo. The Starboard Sprint 14x21.5, on the other hand, was a disaster for me.
I did not fall in the water, but it was very very tippy.
This is really interesting - you're saying the Fanatic 21.5 is more stable than the Starboard ? Wow. I wasn't expecting that. It's a shame the volume is so damn low on Fanatics for me.
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Nice. Good to hear another brand has an even more stable 21.5 vs the Sprint. Looks like Fanatic went to the 2016 SB triple concave at the back with hard edges for less roll. But kept the chamfered edge forward for less drag. Sounds like a very good compromise design that should be very fast. At 21.5 hard edges for stability are key. Without you get that discontinued 25 Race that simply was too round and unstable. As well the 24 Strike iteration that was too tippy round and unstable back in 2016. Year to year trial and error -> but it seems to be finally working for these brands sporting narrow board options. You have to actually try these boards out like proper and ukgm to know firsthand how these designs have progressed. As ukgm noted it makes boards 24.5 wide pretty much obsolete for the top elite.
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As ukgm noted it makes boards 24.5 wide pretty much obsolete for the top elite.
I asked Larry Cain on his facebook page what he was using these days. He said he was using his current 23 inch width sprint for all of his races now and will be moving to the 21.5 for next year. Another top racer who is also on Starboards team has told me he hadn't used his issued Allstar at all and even his Ace had only seen a couple of outings. I think we're going to be hitting a natural convergence of design for most typical races soon and a max width of 22 inches for those.
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Two paddlers rode the downwind, technical race, long distance and sprint last weekend with 21.5 boards and were very far ahead.
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As ukgm noted it makes boards 24.5 wide pretty much obsolete for the top elite.
I asked Larry Cain on his facebook page what he was using these days. He said he was using his current 23 inch width sprint for all of his races now and will be moving to the 21.5 for next year. Another top racer who is also on Starboards team has told me he hadn't used his issued Allstar at all and even his Ace had only seen a couple of outings. I think we're going to be hitting a natural convergence of design for most typical races soon and a max width of 22 inches for those.
Wow - a 50+ year-old guy being internationally competitive on a 21.5” wide board? Incredible.
I find these feats by the older SUPers (eg. Dave Kalama also) more remarkable than even the extraordinary things that the likes of Kai are doing. To avoid injury and still have the desire to compete and train hard enough to do that, when into your 50s is almost unbelievable. These guys must have wills of iron and a huge amount of self-discipline. I’m actually not sure I shouldn’t be feeling sorry for them - that degree of single-mindedness and drive must come at a price. But as long as they are still enjoying themselves then hat’s off to them - and I guess it beats working in some boring office somewhere.
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Two paddlers rode the downwind, technical race, long distance and sprint last weekend with 21.5 boards and were very far ahead.
Yep, their acceleration is quite staggering, let alone the balancing skills of top paddlers now using them in all kind of events.
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As ukgm noted it makes boards 24.5 wide pretty much obsolete for the top elite.
I asked Larry Cain on his facebook page what he was using these days. He said he was using his current 23 inch width sprint for all of his races now and will be moving to the 21.5 for next year. Another top racer who is also on Starboards team has told me he hadn't used his issued Allstar at all and even his Ace had only seen a couple of outings. I think we're going to be hitting a natural convergence of design for most typical races soon and a max width of 22 inches for those.
Wow - a 50+ year-old guy being internationally competitive on a 21.5” wide board? Incredible.
I find these feats by the older SUPers (eg. Dave Kalama also) more remarkable than even the extraordinary things that the likes of Kai are doing. To avoid injury and still have the desire to compete and train hard enough to do that, when into your 50s is almost unbelievable. These guys must have wills of iron and a huge amount of self-discipline. I’m actually not sure I shouldn’t be feeling sorry for them - that degree of single-mindedness and drive must come at a price. But as long as they are still enjoying themselves then hat’s off to them - and I guess it beats working in some boring office somewhere.
To be fair on us mortals, Larry is ex C1 so he will have a higher starting position of balancing sensitivity. However, the bar is being set - if you don't paddle a board that narrow, you're just not going to feature in the results. Its everyone's (i.e. anyone over 35) worst nightmare.
I'm making enquires to see if I can demo the Fanatic out of curiosity.
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When do you plan to release your video?
I'm trying to demo some boards this week so it would be nice to know more about your experiences. :)
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Two paddlers rode the downwind, technical race, long distance and sprint last weekend with 21.5 boards and were very far ahead.
Yep, their acceleration is quite staggering, let alone the balancing skills of top paddlers now using them in all kind of events.
What made the biggest impression for me was the low splash glide and efficiency. Plus ease keeping the paddle shaft vertical vs wider boards. Made 24.5+ boards feel very draggy and sluggish comparably. What is surprising to me is the race use of 21.5 wide boards for DW and bigger waves. Could be SB has finally lost their competitive advantage if the Strike is indeed more stable.
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Two paddlers rode the downwind, technical race, long distance and sprint last weekend with 21.5 boards and were very far ahead.
Just to be sure: they were both on the new 21.5" wide Strike?
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When do you plan to release your video?
I'm trying to demo some boards this week so it would be nice to know more about your experiences. :)
It's gone to the magazine for their editing but I kept it reasonably generic in the end (rather than being an explicit review of that board). However, if you throw a list of questions here, I'll try and answer them.
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I tested these board from 24.5 to 24 wide and that was a tippy experience, was a little faster with an even narrow stance. I just can't imagine how a 23 & 21.5 wide feels like though I'm looking forward to testing these toothpick boards.
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Two paddlers rode the downwind, technical race, long distance and sprint last weekend with 21.5 boards and were very far ahead.
Just to be sure: they were both on the new 21.5" wide Strike?
No. One on the new Strike and one on the Sprint.
Both are very experienced, not heavyweight paddlers.
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21.5” wide is an innovation? I don’t think so: Six years ago, Jim Terrell was winning on a board that was 11 inches wide.
“My average speed was 8.5 miles [per hour] (13.6km/h) and the only way I was able to achieve this improvement was through experimenting with new SUP race equipment”.
http://www.supracer.com/jim-terrells-sprint-sup-racing-secrets/
So, the evolution he talks about has only just begun.
And with the ICF’s interest in running Olympic SUP races, you have JT’s observation:
“Right now there’s nothing stopping a canoe racer from turning up at a SUP race in their C1 canoe, lifting their back knee ever so slightly and smoking the field”.
http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/
And here is the result of using a board that is only 11 inches wide:
http://www.supracer.com/results-2012-silver-blade-regatta/
(ukgm- you need to find someone to build you one of Jim’s “bat boards” :) And while you are at it, develop a “plunge stroke”, use a fin that helps you paddle on one side for longer, and a big-bladed, shorter paddle. Your friends in British Canoeing will love you for it ;) )
So, 21 inches a “toothpick”? Pah! 21” is gonna look like a touring barge within the next 6 years, and our kids will be looking back at this thread and laughing at what the old geezers thought was fast. If a middle-aged man could average 8.5mph just for fun in 2012, just think what a teenager who has grown up with SUP racing will be able to do in 2024 on a board that is 11” wide or less.
Sorry guys, but the only reason you can look even halfway respectable in a SUP race right now is that there are so few kids doing it, and the ones that are are being hobbled by having to use barge-like boards that are built with sales to middle-aged men with large disposable incomes (and middle-aged fanatasies of late-blossoming athletic glory) in mind.
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1) 21.5” wide is an innovation? I don’t think so: Six years ago, Jim Terrell was winning on a board that was 11 inches wide.
2) So, the evolution he talks about has only just begun.
3) “Right now there’s nothing stopping a canoe racer from turning up at a SUP race in their C1 canoe, lifting their back knee ever so slightly and smoking the field”.
4) And while you are at it, develop a “plunge stroke”, use a fin that helps you paddle on one side for longer, and a big-bladed, shorter paddle. Your friends in British Canoeing will love you for it ;) )
1) A 21 inch wide board that can be paddled by the racing masses is an innovation. Jim's board was intentionally a high concept and would still be unusuable by most. The innovation isn't the adoption, it's the ability for it to be actually raceable without a change of paddler generation.
2) I agree. I think we'll be sub 20 within 2 years.
3) Until there is an inclination for C1's (not retirees) to come across, I don't think it will happen for a while. C1 is heavily steeped in tradition so I don't think they'll be the catalyst for innovation Jim was saying.
4) Ahead of you there. I had a chat with Jim about this 2 years ago and have already played with it. The only reason I hadn't pursued it seriously was due to the UK not having the race formats to support it at the time. However, that is changing and next year I was already toying with specialising on sprint stuff next year (as it fits in well with my training for dragonboat national team selection again).
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21.5” wide is an innovation? I don’t think so: Six years ago, Jim Terrell was winning on a board that was 11 inches wide.
…
“Right now there’s nothing stopping a canoe racer from turning up at a SUP race in their C1 canoe, lifting their back knee ever so slightly and smoking the field”.
…
(ukgm- you need to find someone to build you one of Jim’s “bat boards” :) And while you are at it, develop a “plunge stroke”, use a fin that helps you paddle on one side for longer, and a big-bladed, shorter paddle. Your friends in British Canoeing will love you for it ;) )
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Well… there is one thing that can avoid that. Allwater races.
Real life. I love it. I love going out in the choppy changing stuff.
So if a board is developed that can handle that stuff I’m all for it. Meanwhile the toothpicks that can only handle glass I’m not interested. I’d rather be waterskiing.
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21.5” wide is an innovation? I don’t think so: Six years ago, Jim Terrell was winning on a board that was 11 inches wide.
…
“Right now there’s nothing stopping a canoe racer from turning up at a SUP race in their C1 canoe, lifting their back knee ever so slightly and smoking the field”.
…
(ukgm- you need to find someone to build you one of Jim’s “bat boards” :) And while you are at it, develop a “plunge stroke”, use a fin that helps you paddle on one side for longer, and a big-bladed, shorter paddle. Your friends in British Canoeing will love you for it ;) )
…
Well… there is one thing that can avoid that. Allwater races.
Real life. I love it. I love going out in the choppy changing stuff.
So if a board is developed that can handle that stuff I’m all for it. Meanwhile the toothpicks that can only handle glass I’m not interested. I’d rather be waterskiing.
I doubt that rough water will make any real difference. The boards might be a couple of inches wider but they will still be out of the question for 99% of riders.
Active racers (like ukgm) should not create the formats and regulations for races. They will always just create a race they think they can do well at. Competitive people just can’t help themselves - it’s a kind of sickness :)
Fortunately IMO, up to now the ocean crew (which includes most of the main brands) have dominated the race formats and regulations. But I can’t see it staying like that, although a global recession because of Trump’s trade wars might just put the canoeists’ planned takeover of SUP on hold for a while. If there’s no money in it, they won’t be keen.
So it might be a couple of years before we see lane racing in flat water on 14” wide boards. But it is coming, and this will be no country for old men. So let’s go downwind and surf instead - it was always more fun anyway :) Maybe even foil...
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how about they regulate the width of the race board, say 24 wide?
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“Right now there’s nothing stopping a canoe racer from turning up at a SUP race in their C1 canoe, lifting their back knee ever so slightly and smoking the field”.
Has that been happening in the 5 years since he said it?
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“Right now there’s nothing stopping a canoe racer from turning up at a SUP race in their C1 canoe, lifting their back knee ever so slightly and smoking the field”.
Has that been happening in the 5 years since he said it?
Well, it happened when he did it! :)
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"I think we'll be sub 20 within 2 years."
Thought SB might bring out a 20 Sprint for 2019 to stay ahead of the curve. But guess there was not enough speed gain vs loss in stability to make it worthwhile for racing. Do expect at some point there is a breakeven for that. For flat distance maybe 20 wide. But already 21.5 is pretty tippy for surf or rough conditions.
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Here is the Edge 2.0 underside sporting a quick triple concave. It has pretty hard edges giving it quite a reassuringly stable ride. The 22 version should be somewhat close in speed to the 21.5 Sprint. But still expect the Sprint to have a bit more speed with its more rounded nose underside and chamfered edges.
On the other hand -> the Edge Pro at 21 might be a hair faster than the 21.5 Sprint. Unfortunately that board was not available to demo.
http://www.onestanduppaddle.com/boards%20page/Edge
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No. One on the new Strike and one on the Sprint.
Both are very experienced, not heavyweight paddlers.
I see. Thanks a lot for the clarification!
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When do you plan to release your video?
I'm trying to demo some boards this week so it would be nice to know more about your experiences. :)
It's gone to the magazine for their editing but I kept it reasonably generic in the end (rather than being an explicit review of that board). However, if you throw a list of questions here, I'll try and answer them.
Thanks! I'll wait for the video to come out then.
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How deep would a concave have to be before a board could be thought of as catamaran?
If a board had a catamaran-style arrangement for a majority of its length but then the two sides converged to a single hull type nose at the front, would it still be classed as a single hull board?
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Ok, so a 16 year old wins the men’s double downwind event at this year’s Columbia Gorge Challenge (Noic Garioud), besting many of the world’s best downwind specialists (including Titou, Travis, Connor etc).
And a 16 year old girl is the fastest female at the M2O (albeit on a foil).
The kids are coming. Within 5 years most top pros will be foiling. But the rest will be teenagers on boards sub-18” wide.
Gymnastics in the ocean, basically. The old men (ie. anyone over 30) are going to have to find a new sport to compete at, or they’ll just look silly.
On the upside, kids might actually want to do SUP racing then (if that’s a good thing?) It’s too terminally uncool and slow and boring for most at the moment. Which is presumably why the kids are currently doing best at the more exciting forms such as surfing, foiling and downwinding.
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The future is good for these kids and as an old fart i'm happy to just tag along. Fiona's dw footwork on that allstar is something else but being a local makes a lot of difference.
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How deep would a concave have to be before a board could be thought of as catamaran?
If a board had a catamaran-style arrangement for a majority of its length but then the two sides converged to a single hull type nose at the front, would it still be classed as a single hull board?
Well, this is one of those problems we may as well not deal with until it looms.
I began to answer regarding hulls and waterlines but it get's tricky. Then I realized I was thinking about an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.
Speaking of catamarans. Are you still using your standamaran, Burkas?
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How deep would a concave have to be before a board could be thought of as catamaran?
If a board had a catamaran-style arrangement for a majority of its length but then the two sides converged to a single hull type nose at the front, would it still be classed as a single hull board?
Well, this is one of those problems we may as well not deal with until it looms.
I began to answer regarding hulls and waterlines but it get's tricky. Then I realized I was thinking about an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.
Well it might loom soon. I was wondering about a custom like this as a way of reducing form drag, especially upwind, while increasing stability. Of course, there’s the usual problem of flow disturbances between the hulls.
But since I posted this, I see that the ICF have already provided an answer to my question. According to the ICF, a catamaran is anything that has more than a 5 cm deep channel between the rails:
https://www.canoeicf.com/sites/default/files/2017_icf_sup_rules.pdf
Ok, well that is I guess just one of the ways in which race regulations might inhibit sport development. One solution to the current trend for turning SUP racing into gymnastics on water might have been to allow catamarans, perhaps? I’m assuming that a wider catamaran (with the same hulls either side) will have less relative disadvantage in terms of form drag compared to a catamaran with a narrower deck, compared to the difference in form drag between wider and narrower monohull boards.
In this way, I was wondering if multihulls might be one way for old geezers to stay in the game. But apparently not. 5cms doesn’t leave much scope for experimentation. How boring!
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I think foils will provide for more fun and experimenting.
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I think foils will provide for more fun and experimenting.
Yep. It’s a shame however that you seem to need such specific conditions to get the most out of foiling - and to learn it. The thing I liked about SUP when I started was that I could go out and enjoy myself in pretty much any conditions. But what I’m already seeing in foilers is what I constantly hear from my windsurfing buddies, i.e. constant bellyaching that the conditions aren’t right (wind too strong, not strong enough, wrong direction etc) or their equipment isn’t right for them.
I was at my local break a few weeks ago in typical summer conditions (1ft dribble, 15 knots onshore) and the local foilers were telling me how fun foiling was. So I asked “could I go out now and have fun on a foil”? And they said no, you need a bit bigger bump. And you’d need deeper water. But the swell shouldn’t be over about waist height. And you don’t want other people around you. And it’s best if there are clean windless small bumps that don’t break for miles in order to learn. And maybe you should hire a boat for ££££ and learn how to do it before going out in the ocean.... and the equipment breaks so watch the costs.. and the equipment is changing fast so be careful buying used gear... and your feet have to be exactly right so... .etc etc.. jeez! I just want to turn up at the beach any day I like, jump on a board, hit the water with the minimum fuss, and have guaranteed fun!
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Yep.
That's why I paddle. Any conditions, rain or shine, glass or chop. Just grab the paddle and board and get out there and deal with it.
Which is why I gun for allwater boards. Keep it simple.
[yes, eagle, I have ridden narrow boards]
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Yep.
That's why I paddle. Any conditions, rain or shine, glass or chop. Just grab the paddle and board and get out there and deal with it.
Which is why I gun for allwater boards. Keep it simple.
[yes, eagle, I have ridden narrow boards]
That’s exactly where I am with this sport too.
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Yeah most allwater boards are optimized for all conditions use. So my choice for that is the Bullet 14V2. Stable but not too wide and inefficient. Does everything adequately -> even flat water. But is probs the most popular board for DW runs up HS way.
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Yeah most allwater boards are optimized for all conditions use. So my choice for that is the Bullet 14V2. Stable but not too wide and inefficient. Does everything adequately -> even flat water. But is probs the most popular board for DW runs up HS way.
Tried a Bark Vapor yet? Put that alongside a bullet V2 on a small-medium downwind and tell me what you think.
Or a JL Rail.
Or if it’s really small (just inches), a RS.
Or a Maliko.
Or a 2019 JL Sidewinder.
Or a SIC Bayonet.
Lots of good options out there right now for small downwind. The Bullet is no longer the only game in town. All these others are faster in flatwater too.
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Obviously there are many AW options since the Bullet V2 came out. That was years ago and very expected. But each has its own set of pros and cons. Most high quality boards out there are pretty good for their intended use. I found the NSP and Sunova and One boards quite interesting when out testing them.
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Obviously there are many AW options since the Bullet V2 came out. That was years ago and very expected. But each has its own set of pros and cons. Most high quality boards out there are pretty good for their intended use. I found the NSP and Sunova and One boards quite interesting when out testing them.
The Bullet V2 was never an AW board, if that’s what you were implying. It is a specialised downwind board for light to moderate winds, that also happens to make a pleasant general ocean paddler. You wouldn’t race it seriously in anything but a pure downwind race.
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Since the Bullet V2 came out there have been a plethora of AW specific boards. The V2 has always been known as a DW board to complement the V1 -> but it does perform well in all conditions board making it very versatile. Even in flat water it performs ok for its design shape and width. Many here use their V2s as their single quiver AW board. That is the simple fact. For me as well -> if limited to only one board would keep the V2.
For racing AW there are obviously a ton of faster options. ;)
"Few SUPs are this capable - and fun - on both flatwater and ocean."
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Jeez, there ya go again,
How is the Bullet V2 relevant to the topic here? It’s not narrow and it’s not a race board.
The Bullet V2 is surprisingly slow in flat water. That was the main reason I sold mine. It’s really not significantly faster than the Bullet V1 was in flatwater, but the V1 was better in big conditions.
As long as you keep saying “the Bullet V2 is all things to all men” I’ll keep saying it isn’t. Let’s see how many pages of this forum we can fill doing that, eh?
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It is what it is. No one has ever said "the Bullet V2 is all things to all men” but you. No one has ever said "the Bullet V2 is narrow or it's a race board."
You seem to be arguing with yourself. :o
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Thanks a lot Bryce for the informal yet informative chat. :)
https://www.supboardermag.com/2018/09/04/are-narrow-race-boards-nuts-race-dr-bryce-dyer/
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Thanks a lot Bryce for the informal yet informative chat. :)
https://www.supboardermag.com/2018/09/04/are-narrow-race-boards-nuts-race-dr-bryce-dyer/
Thanks for that. I recorded that straight after some banter on here that gave me a few ideas. I'm also hoping to get some data out too soon once I can get hold of one again.
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I paddled a 2019 SB Sprint 14'x21.5" at the weekend for ca. 1 km and found that I could not apply a powerful stroke. Did you experience something similar during you first couple of minutes? How much did it improve after 6 hours of paddling? Could you paddle the Sprint as hard as your All Star at the end?
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I paddled a 2019 SB Sprint 14'x21.5" at the weekend for ca. 1 km and found that I could not apply a powerful stroke. Did you experience something similar during you first couple of minutes? How much did it improve after 6 hours of paddling? Could you paddle the Sprint as hard as your All Star at the end?
I found that I could on completely flatwater (with the occasional wobble if I applied a poor stroke) but as soon as i got onto choppier stuff, no. However, i found playing with fin choice helps massively and the faster you can go, the more stable the board becomes. I think a board of this width for me can't just be hopped on after a long layoff or infrequent use like most boards but if i stuck with it, I think with a winters work I'd be ok. However, I'd be more inclined to play safe and opt for the 23 width.
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Thanks a lot Bryce for the informal yet informative chat. :)
https://www.supboardermag.com/2018/09/04/are-narrow-race-boards-nuts-race-dr-bryce-dyer/
Thanks for that. I recorded that straight after some banter on here that gave me a few ideas. I'm also hoping to get some data out too soon once I can get hold of one again.
Nice summary. ;)
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Thanks a lot Bryce for the informal yet informative chat. :)
https://www.supboardermag.com/2018/09/04/are-narrow-race-boards-nuts-race-dr-bryce-dyer/
Thanks for that. I recorded that straight after some banter on here that gave me a few ideas. I'm also hoping to get some data out too soon once I can get hold of one again.
Nice summary. ;)
Thanks. I'd have liked to put some data in it but I'd already got to the point when even its 8 minutes was too long and whilst most people on here would know much of the information and be well informed already, I wanted to keep the content accessible to a range of paddlers.
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Thanks a lot Bryce for the informal yet informative chat. :)
https://www.supboardermag.com/2018/09/04/are-narrow-race-boards-nuts-race-dr-bryce-dyer/
Thanks for that. I recorded that straight after some banter on here that gave me a few ideas. I'm also hoping to get some data out too soon once I can get hold of one again.
Nice summary. ;)
Yes, it is a nice summary. But please don’t use the word “paddleboard” to describe a SUP. A “paddleboard” is a traditional paddleboard (ie. a prone board) and IMO we should have respect for that discipline that existed long before SUPs.
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Thanks a lot Bryce for the informal yet informative chat. :)
https://www.supboardermag.com/2018/09/04/are-narrow-race-boards-nuts-race-dr-bryce-dyer/ (https://www.supboardermag.com/2018/09/04/are-narrow-race-boards-nuts-race-dr-bryce-dyer/)
Thanks for that. I recorded that straight after some banter on here that gave me a few ideas. I'm also hoping to get some data out too soon once I can get hold of one again.
Nice summary. ;)
Yes, it is a nice summary. But please don’t use the word “paddleboard” to describe a SUP. A “paddleboard” is a traditional paddleboard (ie. a prone board) and IMO we should have respect for that discipline that existed long before SUPs.
Good point about the respect--it is a bit pushy to take over an existing sport's term. Also avoid "standup paddle canoe" or would it be "standup paddle canoe racing canoe"?
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Well, it looks like the ICF have now dropped the term “stand up paddle canoe racing” from their webpages and have (finally) accepted that what SUPers race is a “board”.
https://www.canoeicf.com/discipline/stand-up-paddle
A small but very significant (and probably welcome by most) change.
Perhaps they are finally showing our (admittedly brief) history some respect. The page now looks like it might have actually beeen written by someone who has stepped on a SUP :)
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Thanks a lot Bryce for the informal yet informative chat. :)
https://www.supboardermag.com/2018/09/04/are-narrow-race-boards-nuts-race-dr-bryce-dyer/
Thanks for that. I recorded that straight after some banter on here that gave me a few ideas. I'm also hoping to get some data out too soon once I can get hold of one again.
Nice summary. ;)
Yes, it is a nice summary. But please don’t use the word “paddleboard” to describe a SUP. A “paddleboard” is a traditional paddleboard (ie. a prone board) and IMO we should have respect for that discipline that existed long before SUPs.
I take your point and I'll bear it in mind for future reference. I probably have as many SUP friends who refer to it as 'paddleboard' racing as they do 'SUP' racing. Its just semantics and not something I think we should get too precious about. I'm from a surf lifesaving background originally (where I raced prone - not that any of us called it that) and we had a similar situation back then when arguing about the Ironman (surf LG version) that existed before the (now) more popular Ironman (triathlon). Better to focus on the positives.
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Well, it looks like the ICF have now dropped the term “stand up paddle canoe racing” from their webpages and have (finally) accepted that what SUPers race is a “board”.
https://www.canoeicf.com/discipline/stand-up-paddle
A small but very significant (and probably welcome by most) change.
Perhaps they are finally showing our (admittedly brief) history some respect. The page now looks like it might have actually beeen written by someone who has stepped on a SUP :)
Due to the recent hassles, the battle is now clearly out in the open so the subterfuge of calling it a canoe would only be seen as negative and not a way to curry favour with the paddlers you actually want to support you I guess. That was a sensible move. However, the cynic in me suggests they only did that to make sure it was a clearly defined fight at the CAS next year. Using an odd term that isn't replicated anywhere elsewhere would only harm their case, not help it.
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I paddled a 2019 SB Sprint 14'x21.5" at the weekend for ca. 1 km and found that I could not apply a powerful stroke. Did you experience something similar during you first couple of minutes? How much did it improve after 6 hours of paddling? Could you paddle the Sprint as hard as your All Star at the end?
I found that I could on completely flatwater (with the occasional wobble if I applied a poor stroke) but as soon as i got onto choppier stuff, no. However, i found playing with fin choice helps massively and the faster you can go, the more stable the board becomes. I think a board of this width for me can't just be hopped on after a long layoff or infrequent use like most boards but if i stuck with it, I think with a winters work I'd be ok. However, I'd be more inclined to play safe and opt for the 23 width.
That is good to know! BTW, a fellow paddler (~190cm, 90kg) of mine recently switched from a 2018 14'x24.5" All Star to a 2019 14'x23" Sprint and is happy about it. He is a frequent contestant at the 11 City Tour.
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Well, it looks like the ICF have now dropped the term “stand up paddle canoe racing” from their webpages and have (finally) accepted that what SUPers race is a “board”.
By the way, has anyone heard any rumours if the ICF worlds will be held this again this year after Portugal got canned ?
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... Could you paddle the Sprint as hard as your All Star at the end?
I found that I could on completely flatwater (with the occasional wobble if I applied a poor stroke) but as soon as i got onto choppier stuff, no ...
Unless you have the 23 Sprint under complete control in slop and chop it is often better to stick with that if coming from the 24.5 AS. Moving to the 21.5 Sprint is that one step tippier and often you will not see a gain in speed once conditions get rough. On flat though -> the speed advantage over the 24.5 AS is undeniable and massive as noted.
So basically if you are skilled enough get the 21.5 Sprint. Otherwise get the 23 and push it to the limit. Best to do timed runs in similar conditions. Ex. 24.5 AS was same upwind as my AS23 -> faster cross wind -> and slower downwind. Overall the AS23 was 3% faster over my 5 mile loop. My suspicion is that the 23 Sprint would be about the same -> while the 21.5 Sprint slower over that same route unless dead flat. Note we virtually never get dead flat conditions in the ocean where we are.
Most around here refer to a SUP as a "paddleboard" as most have no clue what a prone board is. But the ICF notion that present day SUP originated in Africa was somewhat interesting. ;D
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Yeah, we’ve been over this “origins of SUP” thing before. For the ICF it’s “whatever you do don’t blame (or even mention) Laird”.
Africa my arse :)
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... Could you paddle the Sprint as hard as your All Star at the end?
I found that I could on completely flatwater (with the occasional wobble if I applied a poor stroke) but as soon as i got onto choppier stuff, no ...
Unless you have the 23 Sprint under complete control in slop and chop it is often better to stick with that if coming from the 24.5 AS. Moving to the 21.5 Sprint is that one step tippier and often you will not see a gain in speed once conditions get rough. On flat though -> the speed advantage over the 24.5 AS is undeniable and massive as noted.
So basically if you are skilled enough get the 21.5 Sprint. Otherwise get the 23 and push it to the limit. Best to do timed runs in similar conditions. Ex. 24.5 AS was same upwind as my AS23 -> faster cross wind -> and slower downwind. Overall the AS23 was 3% faster over my 5 mile loop. My suspicion is that the 23 Sprint would be about the same -> while the 21.5 Sprint slower over that same route unless dead flat. Note we virtually never get dead flat conditions in the ocean where we are.
Most around here refer to a SUP as a "paddleboard" as most have no clue what a prone board is. But the ICF notion that present day SUP originated in Africa was somewhat interesting. ;D
I agree with you wholesale.
Interestingly, in the photo's of the recent Danish SUP champs, Casper looks like he is not on a custom but instead racing on a stock 24 width.
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Traditional paddleboarders call what we paddle a “SUP”. I suggest we do the same.
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Traditional paddleboarders call what we paddle a “SUP”. I suggest we do the same.
I guess. I think its something not to get too worried or worked up about. Soccer - football. As long as it sees feet on boards, they can call it whatever they like in my view.
Not aimed at you Area 10 at all but the debate over names and causing offence just reminded me of that old 3 minute comedy gag by aussie Steve Hughes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo
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Traditional paddleboarders call what we paddle a “SUP”. I suggest we do the same.
I guess. I think its something not to get too worried or worked up about. Soccer - football. As long as it sees feet on boards, they can call it whatever they like in my view ...
Yeah around here most view "paddleboard" as SUP. That term is used quite interchangeably. So not much to argue about. But in the vid "boy bands" can be deemed somewhat offensive. ;D
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It's only 25" at one point. Tippy... yes. Fast... yes. Flat water only... yes.
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looks fast, tippy & fun.
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looks fast, tippy & fun.
Tippy or fun? .. You can’t have both IMO.. :)
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looks fast, tippy & fun.
Tippy or fun? .. You can’t have both IMO.. :)
;D
Stable and downwind = fun . The rest who cares.....
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looks fast, tippy & fun.
Tippy or fun? .. You can’t have both IMO.. :)
;D
Stable and downwind = fun . The rest who cares.....
:) Quite right.
But if I did want to punish myself with the boredom of flat water paddling, I’d want to do it on a board like TallDude’s.
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But if I did want to punish myself with the boredom of flat water paddling, I’d want to do it on a board like TallDude’s.
Agreed. That would be nicer than a toothpick.
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looks fast, tippy & fun.
Tippy or fun? .. You can’t have both IMO.. :)
;D
Stable and downwind = fun . The rest who cares.....
:) Quite right.
But if I did want to punish myself with the boredom of flat water paddling, I’d want to do it on a board like TallDude’s.
You're right, but it beats running on a treadmill in some gym, smelling all the sweat, and starring at myself in a mirror. I'll paddle that board at night in the harbor in pure glass. I can hear music coming from the restaurants and boats, and there's enough ambient light to see. It's a good peaceful workout with no one around. It's a grind and can be somewhat boring.
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Yes touring in flat water is very nice and I also do that during the winter, but down-winding is fun.
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interesting result for the top women at the 11 city tour as seychelle won on the 23" wide board and others was on the 21" wide board came second.
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What is even more impressive for me: she won an inland race with a board which is advertised to suit all conditions. Rise of all-water boards?
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interesting result for the top women at the 11 city tour as seychelle won on the 23" wide board and others was on the 21" wide board came second.
Are you sure that it was a SIC RS 14x23? Many of SIC Maui team riders have been racing with 21.5" wide prototypes this year.
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interesting result for the top women at the 11 city tour as seychelle won on the 23" wide board and others was on the 21" wide board came second.
Are you sure that it was a SIC RS 14x23? Many of SIC Maui team riders have been racing with 21.5" wide prototypes this year.
https://www.facebook.com/SeychelleSUP/photos/a.399395120210495/1136597126490287/?type=3
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interesting result for the top women at the 11 city tour as seychelle won on the 23" wide board and others was on the 21" wide board came second.
Are you sure that it was a SIC RS 14x23? Many of SIC Maui team riders have been racing with 21.5" wide prototypes this year.
Seychelle has to borrow a board because hers didn’t turn up. This is what she said on FB:
“Big Mahalo to my hero of the week @sup.mission. After a last minute cluster fuck, no board arrived for me here in Holland. Hassan gave up his personal board so that I could race on an RS 23. After attempting to do the non-stop, he is still racing the 5 day on his FX 25. So impressive. And so greatly appreciated. That’s what @sicmaui Ohana is all about. Thank you Hassan for your generosity and sacrifice!!!
Secretly I’m not so sure I want to do this race ever again. (Okay, not a secret if you post it on Instagram 😜) but if I do, I will be sure to bring a 21” wide board. The RS 23 is my absolute favorite board, but it performs the best in open water conditions. Here on the canals of Friesland, there are no bumps. I’m doing my best to keep up with the other two top women on 21” wide boards, but I can feel the difference. Especially after 3 days. Oh well, just have to paddle even harder”.
I don’t think that the 23 would be an open water board for me :) But it does show how good a design the RS is, since it is definitely an all-waters board, as perfectly at home in the ocean as it is on flat water. Would Seychelle have won on a 23” wide All Star? Hmm...
A prediction: Next year’s 11 cities the winner will be on a sub-20 board.
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WOW. Thanks Mr. Proper and Area 10. It's like the Annabel Anderson ISA drama all over again...
I could feel the sub-20 arms race going on now...
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A prediction: Next year’s 11 cities the winner will be on a sub-20 board.
I know that's going to be quite likely. Mind you, this race is a bit unique in terms of the water states it gets so quite how transferable such boards would be to other races, I'm not sure.
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What is even more impressive for me: she won an inland race with a board which is advertised to suit all conditions. Rise of all-water boards?
'In spite of' or 'because of' ?
Hard to say. Until the implementation of the time trials last year, you could probably get away with an allwater board due to the heavy reliance on draft trains. Now though, I'm not so sure.
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What is even more impressive for me: she won an inland race with a board which is advertised to suit all conditions. Rise of all-water boards?
'In spite of' or 'because of' ?
Hard to say. Until the implementation of the time trials last year, you could probably get away with an allwater board due to the heavy reliance on draft trains. Now though, I'm not so sure.
I think that what we’ve learnt over the last 10 years is that a board that is stable and predictable in its handling can be ridden much narrower than one that isn’t, and that the mechanical advantages of going narrower outweigh the theoretical advantages of the things that make boards fast but tippy (convex hulls, round rails, piercing bows etc).
If I were going to be racing over 5 days I’d want to be on something like the RS that is steady-feeling and stable, rather than sapping my energy for hours each day standing on something that micro-wobbles every second.
Quite apart from the drafting issue.
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Once you are in a train and moving fast, a narrow board with a recessed deck should be quite stable, I would imagine?
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Its not in spite of or because of. She had one other top female paddler there and she has a past history of being an endurance beast. In a tighter battle the last percentage points are going to come into play but that race was won by the padddler on the board, not the board under the paddler. The 23 was overkill in those conditions, it’s an ocean board for her.
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If I were going to be racing over 5 days I’d want to be on something like the RS that is steady-feeling and stable, rather than sapping my energy for hours each day standing on something that micro-wobbles every second.
Quite apart from the drafting issue.
I would agree for us mortals. The reality is that the true elites don't find a 21.5 board energy sapping. For what it's worth, I'm splitting my time between SUp and surfski next year so will unlikely see enough time on a board that narrow to justify it so I'm likely to be going for something like the 23.5 Allstar (for the exact reason you gave in your post) and whatever I'm given to test.
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If I were going to be racing over 5 days I’d want to be on something like the RS that is steady-feeling and stable, rather than sapping my energy for hours each day standing on something that micro-wobbles every second.
Quite apart from the drafting issue.
I would agree for us mortals. The reality is that the true elites don't find a 21.5 board energy sapping. For what it's worth, I'm splitting my time between SUp and surfski next year so will unlikely see enough time on a board that narrow to justify it so I'm likely to be going for something like the 23.5 Allstar (for the exact reason you gave in your post) and whatever I'm given to test.
A 21.5” wide cutting-bow, convex-hulled, pintail board (ie the fastest flatwater design in a straight line over a long distance, not drafting) would be a handful even for an elite paddler, at this point. Next year when the teenagers take over, they’ll be able to use them though.
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I would agree for us mortals. The reality is that the true elites don't find a 21.5 board energy sapping. For what it's worth, I'm splitting my time between SUp and surfski next year so will unlikely see enough time on a board that narrow to justify it so I'm likely to be going for something like the 23.5 Allstar (for the exact reason you gave in your post) and whatever I'm given to test.
Mind you, a fellow paddler of mine, who is around 190 cm and 90 kg, tried a 23.5 All Star (2019) and found it more tippy than his 23 Sprint (2019). The tail of the former is 1.4" narrower.
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the narrower board manufactures think its a good market to bring out 21.5 wide or under are making a big mistake. I do like the hype race wins and I wonder how long the honey moon period will last until we realize were not all pro paddlers.
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I would agree for us mortals. The reality is that the true elites don't find a 21.5 board energy sapping. For what it's worth, I'm splitting my time between SUp and surfski next year so will unlikely see enough time on a board that narrow to justify it so I'm likely to be going for something like the 23.5 Allstar (for the exact reason you gave in your post) and whatever I'm given to test.
Mind you, a fellow paddler of mine, who is around 190 cm and 90 kg, tried a 23.5 All Star (2019) and found it more tippy than his 23 Sprint (2019). The tail of the former is 1.4" narrower.
Yep, that's why I've been shopping for the 2018 version. The 2019 version is a step backwards in my view by narrowing the tail again.
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Ukgm - Have you tried the 14x21.5” 2019 Fanatic Strike? It’s 274L so might float you despite the narrow width.
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Ukgm - Have you tried the 14x21.5” 2019 Fanatic Strike? It’s 274L so might float you despite the narrow width.
I haven't (it's on the list to test at some stage). It looks very good.
The volume is ok (I'd like a shade more to be honest) but even with a discount I might be able to get, it's not an affordable option for me when I can still access some 2018 boards at less than 50% retail. I'm already seeing that the Sprint 21.5's have become hard to shift so I would be very cautious about getting one as its not an everyday board for most.
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Speed costs money mate, in any sport.
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Speed costs money mate, in any sport.
Indeed.
(or just wait for a 21.5 bargain 6 months from now when team paddlers are getting frustrated they still can't shift their old gear to allow them to have the new stuff -standard team ambassador deal clause).
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Speed costs money mate, in any sport.
Indeed.
(or just wait for a 21.5 bargain 6 months from now when team paddlers are getting frustrated they still can't shift their old gear to allow them to have the new stuff -standard team ambassador deal clause).
Are team paddlers/ambassadors normally bound to upgrade their gear every year? Can't they stick with their gear for one more year if, say, they don't like the changes?
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Fiona Wylde kept an older version of her Allstar for several years. I'm assuming because she preferred that board as she was doing well enough to have the choice.
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Fiona Wylde kept an older version of her Allstar for several years. I'm assuming because she preferred that board as she was doing well enough to have the choice.
The early versions of the All Star were quite sleek and low volume compared to today’s models. Somewhere along the line the target rider for the board seemed to move from being Fiona Wylde to ukgm and it consequently ballooned :)
And if ukgm had his way, the 14x23 All Star would be 400L for 2019 :)
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Fiona Wylde kept an older version of her Allstar for several years. I'm assuming because she preferred that board as she was doing well enough to have the choice.
And if ukgm had his way, the 14x23 All Star would be 400L for 2019 :)
Damn straight. It's a bugger the 2018 22.5 was still quite low in volume to the rest of the range though as I would have definitely gone for one of those.
As you know, board sizing is just the product of a sports natural selection though. I read an interesting anecdote in a book today regarding the history of the bicycle. Back when we rode penny farthings, it wasn't jockey like flyweights that did well in the races - it was the tall. Why ? Because there were no gears so the large front wheel governed top end speed but due to the direct mount cranks, the tall riders could therefore have a bigger wheel and therefore were more likely to win the races. Somewhere along the line, the chain drivetrain was invented and suddenly the shape of cyclists began to change (this is known as 'reskilling' a sport). When I first saw SUP, this seemed to be the case too of big, burly powerhouses seriously moving a K15 or equivalent to my eyes but then we got regulated and the best riders became lighter and more lithe with an emphasise on power to weight and a high V02 max rather than outright horsepower.
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Yes quite. But it’s people like you who are responsible for making yourselves obsolete. So don’t expect any sympathy from me - you made (and are making) your own bed.
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Yes quite. But it’s people like you who are responsible for making yourselves obsolete. So don’t expect any sympathy from me - you made (and are making) your own bed.
Well I wasn’t after sympathy. It’s merely an observation. Besides, in my experience, regulation (at the right point, granted), is essential. Without that, the initial freedom left unchecked will destroy a sport due to the increasing imbalances it creates.
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For what it's worth, I'm splitting my time between SUp and surfski next year so will unlikely see enough time on a board that narrow to justify it so I'm likely to be going for something like the 23.5 Allstar (for the exact reason you gave in your post) and whatever I'm given to test.
As noted the original triple concave All Star 23 is somewhat sleek for a cutting boof design. It easily pearls if you are not constantly trimming it in steep wave action. But interestingly the current 22.5 may be pretty close in size and handling. Whereas the current 23.5 and 24.5 are considerably larger bulkier and have a lot more float comparably.
Personally my preference is always a wider tail option since my balance is pretty crappy on narrow boards. So losing an inch stability at the tail width would be quite a bit for me on the 22.5 model. The tail width on the current dropped deck Sprint 23 is a nice fat 15.8". So even better. Notice the Sprint 21.5 tail width is now the same as my old AS23 -> at 14.8" wide. ukgm my suggestion would still be the Sprint 23 -> unless you mostly expect to race in ocean slop and chop. Then would go for the AS 23.5 just to handle waves better. The Sprint 21.5 nose spears too mch for me in steep waves. So is very hard to keep speed up and consistent unless a top elite. My suspicion is the Sprint 23 would be optimal for your type of racing. ;)
2016
23" - 8.7" Thick - 14.8" Tail - 264L - 50-80kgs
2019
22.5" - 8.7" Thick - 13.8" Tail - 272L - 40-75kgs
2019
23.5" - 10.2" Thick - 14.4" Tail - 327L - 50-85kgs
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Yes quite. But it’s people like you who are responsible for making yourselves obsolete. So don’t expect any sympathy from me - you made (and are making) your own bed.
Well I wasn’t after sympathy. It’s merely an observation. Besides, in my experience, regulation (at the right point, granted), is essential. Without that, the initial freedom left unchecked will destroy a sport due to the increasing imbalances it creates.
This is a straw man argument. Regulation is of course required in sport. But regulation of the wrong kind will kill a sport faster than having none. And that is what is going to happen. The sport is re-skilling people like you right out of it. But greater diversity of equipment could avoid this. For some reason you are happy with this. Maybe you are happy having an excuse as to why you aren’t winning (when you aren’t) :)
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Yes quite. But it’s people like you who are responsible for making yourselves obsolete. So don’t expect any sympathy from me - you made (and are making) your own bed.
Well I wasn’t after sympathy. It’s merely an observation. Besides, in my experience, regulation (at the right point, granted), is essential. Without that, the initial freedom left unchecked will destroy a sport due to the increasing imbalances it creates.
1) The sport is re-skilling people like you right out of it.
2) But greater diversity of equipment could avoid this.
3) For some reason you are happy with this.
4) Maybe you are happy having an excuse as to why you aren’t winning (when you aren’t) :)
1) Someone will always get reskilled out of a newly developing sport. Big guys like me aren’t the only demographic getting hammered by the current board limits.
2) I don’t disagree.
3) I’m happier being able to race against my friends and I’ve explained before several times why I’m not personally banner waving for an unlimited class. That’s been asked and answered and you know this. Ultimately, I’m a cyclist first and a paddler second hence my more relaxed view of things as far as SUP goes. I have to really as I only paddle 2-3 times a week (it’s all I can fit in around my cycling so to be honest, I should be paddling more as a priority long before worrying about weighing 10kg more than my adversaries). As you’ll see on my Facebook page, I spread myself too thin with compromises all round but I love a variety of sports.
4) You’re reaching. I’m not sure why I need to be finding an excuse for anything. Either way, I have several fronts I need to improve on as a paddler and there are plenty of others for me other than mere mass. On a related theme, I have different problems to overcome with my surf skiing not related to my size to be competitive there next year and I can use equipment there that isn’t hamstrung by my size.
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Speed costs money mate, in any sport.
Indeed.
(or just wait for a 21.5 bargain 6 months from now when team paddlers are getting frustrated they still can't shift their old gear to allow them to have the new stuff -standard team ambassador deal clause).
Are team paddlers/ambassadors normally bound to upgrade their gear every year? Can't they stick with their gear for one more year if, say, they don't like the changes?
I can’t speak for everyone but at a domestic level, it seems to a requirement to try to do so but not everyone does so. Some teams seem to be more relaxed than others. Mind you, if you’re not going to use the latest equipment from a brand, I’m not sure I can the point of being on the team (either from theirs or the athletes point of view).
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For what it's worth, I'm splitting my time between SUp and surfski next year so will unlikely see enough time on a board that narrow to justify it so I'm likely to be going for something like the 23.5 Allstar (for the exact reason you gave in your post) and whatever I'm given to test.
As noted the original triple concave All Star 23 is somewhat sleek for a cutting boof design. It easily pearls if you are not constantly trimming it in steep wave action. But interestingly the current 22.5 may be pretty close in size and handling. Whereas the current 23.5 and 24.5 are considerably larger bulkier and have a lot more float comparably.
Personally my preference is always a wider tail option since my balance is pretty crappy on narrow boards. So losing an inch stability at the tail width would be quite a bit for me on the 22.5 model. The tail width on the current dropped deck Sprint 23 is a nice fat 15.8". So even better. Notice the Sprint 21.5 tail width is now the same as my old AS23 -> at 14.8" wide. ukgm my suggestion would still be the Sprint 23 -> unless you mostly expect to race in ocean slop and chop. Then would go for the AS 23.5 just to handle waves better. The Sprint 21.5 nose spears too mch for me in steep waves. So is very hard to keep speed up and consistent unless a top elite. My suspicion is the Sprint 23 would be optimal for your type of racing. ;)
2016
23" - 8.7" Thick - 14.8" Tail - 264L - 50-80kgs
2019
22.5" - 8.7" Thick - 13.8" Tail - 272L - 40-75kgs
2019
23.5" - 10.2" Thick - 14.4" Tail - 327L - 50-85kgs
I agree Eagle. If one comes up, that would be my first choice.
As a brief tangent, looking at the footage of Steinfath at the recent euro champs, he looks like he’s still on a stock 24 width board.
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Fiona Wylde kept an older version of her Allstar for several years. I'm assuming because she preferred that board as she was doing well enough to have the choice.
In the UK, ex domestic team Starboard stalwart (and longstanding 11 cities competitor) Crispin Jones was using his cut down K15 when he was formally on their team (and still continues to do so now).
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I agree Eagle. If one comes up, that would be my first choice.
As a brief tangent, looking at the footage of Steinfath at the recent euro champs, he looks like he’s still on a stock 24 width board.
At 24 wide it would be very hard for Steinfath to even keep close to the Hasulyo Bros in 11 Cities if he ever tried. That spear 21.5 Sprint is so efficient comparably as you know. A tubby 24 Maliko like that simply would be too sluggish and draggy to keep close. Even in a draft train.
But did like the addition of the Time Trials. Allowed the stronger paddler behind a chance to catch up and pass like in the Women's Div. The draft trains have always helped equalize the weaker paddlers. All Yuka had to do was keep pace with Seychelle. But Seychelle simply is a powerhouse for endurance. Personally do not like draft trains of any sort. Always have preferred hard core give it all you got Time Trials. ;)
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2016
23" - 8.7" Thick - 14.8" Tail - 264L - 50-80kgs
2019
22.5" - 8.7" Thick - 13.8" Tail - 272L - 40-75kgs
2019
23.5" - 10.2" Thick - 14.4" Tail - 327L - 50-85kgs
I think the volume of the narrow boards is deceptive.
How should this volume help heavy paddlers when this is mostly above the water surface?
In troubled conditions ok, but in flat water?
If that would work, then I could stick some air balloons on the front and back of the board and would also have a lot of volume.
Or have I thought incorrectly about that?
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The draft trains have always helped equalize the weaker paddlers. All Yuka had to do was keep pace with Seychelle. But Seychelle simply is a powerhouse for endurance. Personally do not like draft trains of any sort. Always have preferred hard core give it all you got Time Trials. ;)
I agree. It's exactly for this reason why in cycling too I don't do bunch racing anymore and stick to time trials and i prefer the quieter SUP races too for the same reason. There is an argument to be made that tactical nous is (or should be considered) part of the SUP game but personally, the inclusion of TT's in the 11 cities was intended to replicate the tour de France approach and it should be applauded. When you look at the results of those particular stages, it gives a bit of insight into who the really strong paddlers are.
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Personally proper am not much concerned by volume as a lightweight rider about the size of Kai. Paddled a huge volume Bullet 17.4 and loved it. Also loved that huge 17'11 One. Basically just determine at the time when hopping on a board if I like it or not. Never thought about how it should help a heavier rider. Maybe some designer like Robert can tell you.
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The draft trains have always helped equalize the weaker paddlers. All Yuka had to do was keep pace with Seychelle. But Seychelle simply is a powerhouse for endurance. Personally do not like draft trains of any sort. Always have preferred hard core give it all you got Time Trials. ;)
I agree. It's exactly for this reason why in cycling too I don't do bunch racing anymore and stick to time trials and i prefer the quieter SUP races too for the same reason. There is an argument to be made that tactical nous is (or should be considered) part of the SUP game but personally, the inclusion of TT's in the 11 cities was intended to replicate the tour de France approach and it should be applauded. When you look at the results of those particular stages, it gives a bit of insight into who the really strong paddlers are.
Yeah KOM as well deserves much respect. ;)
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2016
23" - 8.7" Thick - 14.8" Tail - 264L - 50-80kgs
2019
22.5" - 8.7" Thick - 13.8" Tail - 272L - 40-75kgs
2019
23.5" - 10.2" Thick - 14.4" Tail - 327L - 50-85kgs
I think the volume of the narrow boards is deceptive.
How should this volume help heavy paddlers when this is mostly above the water surface?
In troubled conditions ok, but in flat water?
If that would work, then I could stick some air balloons on the front and back of the board and would also have a lot of volume.
Or have I thought incorrectly about that?
Yes, anything that doesn’t touch water is basically holding you back. I think people tend to confuse volume with other design features that do make a difference and *tend to be* associated with volume, like high-sided rails. A canoe with thin sidewalls doesn’t have much volume, if you ignore the empty area inside it, but it will support a very large paddler. This was how e.g. the K15 worked. What heavier, stronger, paddlers do is introduce a lot of pitch, roll and yaw when the paddle a given size board, and this means that more of the board ends up at some point in touch with the water, quite apart from the extra volume that they displace. So heavier paddlers tend to prefer boards that have bigger surface areas, wider tails and noses and higher sidewalls (rails). With most designs this means more “volume”, although as I say, actually volume of foam isn’t really, in the main, what they should be thinking about. The change in waterline between a heavy and a light person won’t be that great in lost cases. But the change in dynamic movement of the board with the two different weight paddlers might be substantial.
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...... and this means that more of the board ends up at some point in touch with the water, quite apart from the extra volume that they displace.
The change in waterline between a heavy and a light person won’t be that great in lost cases. But the change in dynamic movement of the board with the two different weight paddlers might be substantial.
I agree completely with what you're saying. I would add to this by saying that the distribution of the volume (and its resulting centre of buoyancy) coupled with the dynamics of the different weight paddlers (in terms of position and stroke signature) may make a board useable or not. However, bear in mind that board profiles are designed with a given waterline in mind and even a 5-10mm shift in waterline (not an unreasonable change if you are 10-15Kg heavier than the team paddler that tested it) can turn a board into a dog.
A key issue surrounding this is that I know of a few female paddlers who feel that the current production boards are often designed with men in mind and due to their lighter mass feel too corky or too much to handle due to the proportionally higher windage.