Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: surfercook on July 15, 2018, 02:25:13 PM
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But I'm gonna keep at it. At least I didn't cut myself this time. My buddy who is WAY better than me at just about everything managed to cut himself. Wasn't as bad as it looked, thankfully. He's like 15 yrs younger and an amazing athlete.
We shared the Naish foil on the 7'0" Raptor that I'm demo-ing. Gonna ditch the Naish foil for a Gofoil Maloko. the Naish is a much smaller wing.
First semi-controlled flight. Actually managed to drop in and surf the board a bit then launch the foil. didn't even come close to controlling the landing though.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/845/41623643070_dec4b230d3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26q93Ws)vlcsnap-2018-07-15-15h34m47s695 (https://flic.kr/p/26q93Ws) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
YIKES!
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/840/41623641620_5278684e8e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26q93vs)vlcsnap-2018-07-15-15h34m56s208 (https://flic.kr/p/26q93vs) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
Dodo birdin'!
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1790/41623640270_166779af29_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26q937b)vlcsnap-2018-07-15-15h35m14s018 (https://flic.kr/p/26q937b) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
Quite a bit of this goin' on tday.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/914/41623644300_52a60e0b7b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26q94iE)vlcsnap-2018-07-15-15h31m00s158 (https://flic.kr/p/26q94iE) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
Thought for sure my buddy was med center bound on this one.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1809/43383786122_6bde96ee21_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/296Ff9s)vlcsnap-2018-07-15-15h36m19s869 (https://flic.kr/p/296Ff9s) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
But he displayed excellent control flying once he shook off the wipe
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/917/41623635120_265ea519d0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26q91zo)vlcsnap-2018-07-15-15h40m32s925 (https://flic.kr/p/26q91zo) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
...unlike me!
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/922/41623633080_a8ddb12d78_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26q8ZYd)vlcsnap-2018-07-15-16h49m11s299 (https://flic.kr/p/26q8ZYd) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
Baby steps...slow and steady. But I will be relentless. Guessing a coupla months of this.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/839/43383780202_49eed5c7f3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/296Fdoo)vlcsnap-2018-07-15-16h50m38s202 (https://flic.kr/p/296Fdoo) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
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Pic 5 looked like his face was headed straight for the point of the foil wing.
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And yet it didn't happen. So once again, the worst case envisioned did not come true. Also, neither was struck with a heat attack and they drove safely to and from the beach.
You look pretty good in most of those, cook. Looks like you're going to get this with a bit more time on the water.
So much could go wrong, and yet, most times it doesn't.
Looking good!
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Its always fun! Great for your second session. Try keeping both your feet on or near the stringer and your chest facing forward. In the pics, It seems like your feet are positioned to each side of the stringer. I could be wrong and the pics only make it seem like that. Good luck!
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Way to go Cookieman.... here's your new theme song! :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfQnc08dNng
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Just checked my notes from My Second Session. (Maybe the 3rd session if you count the first ever 4 attempts I had on Haley's board)
Session Number 2:
Conditions similar to 1st day. 5 - 7 feet and choppy. Not ideal but the foil has given me new inspiration and vision into what is possible.
Notable accomplishments:
- I managed several times to crash off the foil and then re-fly the foil without falling off. 2X I skipped off the surface twice without falling
- I took off and did a gentle turn down the line. Going down the line is very scary, hard to do and speed increases dramatically turning the foil into a bucking bronco that needs to be tamed
- I made a drop and was riding then a secondary wave/bump rose up in front of me and I was able to pump the board, while on the foil, climb over the bump and drop into the next trough OMG :D
The last point was a huge milestone. I have never on a SUP been able to approach a wave from behind, climb up the back (no matter how small) and then slide down the front again. I had images of Kai connecting swells on a downwinder.
And this was My Second Session On the Foil: Longest ride 147 yards & 25 seconds. 13 waves > 10 seconds.
Here were the stats:
http://surf.traceup.com/stats/u?uId=530606&vId=85246
PS: Consider this a Public Service Announcement. While I don't want to surf with a bunch of Foilers I believe this opens up a whole new landscape of otherwise imperfect spots from the outer periphery of point breaks to outer sand bars, up and down the entire East & West Coast . . . . More to come.
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But I'm gonna keep at it. At least I didn't cut myself this time. . . .
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/845/41623643070_dec4b230d3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26q93Ws)
Try keeping both your feet on or near the stringer and your chest facing forward. In the pics, It seems like your feet are positioned to each side of the stringer.
SUPeter is 100% correct here. I am not sure that anyone could fly the foil with offset feet like the picture above. It looks like you corrected it later.
I call it a 1970's skateboard stance. Your feet need to be 100% centered on the board.
AND I would put a SHARPY MARK at 25" in front of the front Bolt of the foil. I have taught 3 people to foil and applied this mark to 5 different foil boards and it has been SPOT ON. Your front foot needs to be within +/- 1" of this forward placement. Back foot directly on TOP of the Mast. All the brands are converging so this will be a good place to start. Again it will be within an INCH of where your front foot needs to be.
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PS: As a continued public service announcement I am going to push back and say:
FOILING IS EASY
Give it a few more sessions . . . . say 10.
If you are an experienced SUP'er it may be the easiest sport you ever tried to learn!!!!!!!!
I have now watched 2 people behind my 5 horsepower boat get up and fly on their 1st attempt. One was my 20 year old nephew Chase who has NO experience on a SUP but is a very talented wake-boarder, waterskier and skier. He was flying, dropping without falling and re-flying and cutting across the wake within 5 attempts (will post video).
The other was my windsurf amigo Marc from 20 years ago. Very talented windsurfer and water-skier. Just learning to SUP. He too was up and flying comfortably behind the boat IMMEDIATELY. I was surprised. The only other person I have seen document this quick learning experience was Evan Lloyd.
However if I put these two in the surf they would NOT be as successful because they are NOT strong SUP'ers.
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More support, suggestions, guidance, and foil stoke is helping me to keep on keeping on. Thanx all! I sometimes feel like giving up and returning to "Ground level". The waves were really nice yesterday and I pretty much gave up a regular sup sesh to try and progress, which I feel I have done.
I am going to mark the 25" point and try to center my stance next go. Also I will be on my V-Box because....drum roll.....the install is done!
I wanted to video the install but was busy skoolin' the foil while it was being done. Thankfully my installer took some good pictures.
I noticed the Naish Malolo which I was on has the specs right on the foil. I knew it was a slightly smaller wing than the KeNalu 'IWA775. Have a feeling the IWA will fly easier w/better and more smooth lift and sustained flight. What exactly is the "Aspect Ratio"?
'IWA775- 250mm x 775mm- 1496cm2 aspect ratio 4.14
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Here is some more motivation.
A couple shots of my daughter Ruby age 15. She IS a strong paddler and had practiced behind the boat for ~ 1 hour over 3 sessions.
It took me 10 sessions on the Easy Foiler to take off with my front foot in the front strap. I screamed so loud my 1st session I saw stars and almost blacked out.
Ruby's 1st Session in the waves:
In the top photo you can see her feet perfectly positioned. Front foot in the strap, back foot against the rear strap. Then she flies. I only saw this from the still shots after the fact.
She made 4 attempts. Had one flight of 60 yards touched down and paddled away without falling. Then she fell a few times and suggested I ruined her surfing life forever . . . . . hit the foil and (all truth be told got a big bruise on her calf) . . . . . So that was the end of her foiling for the week.
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Beasho, I appreciate the extra effort and detailed descriptions you are putting into my post here. Very stoking and strong...like you and your daughter! Ruby rules!
https://youtu.be/jymS_7zyy7c
Still wanting some schooling on the specs for foils though.
What exactly is the "Aspect Ratio"?
'IWA775-
250mm x 775mm - Wing span and width?
1496cm2 - overall surface area of forward wing?
aspect ratio 4.14 - ????
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I sometimes feel like giving up and returning to "Ground level". The waves were really nice yesterday and I pretty much gave up a regular sup sesh to try and progress . . .
I was speaking with my new Foil Amigo, Paul age 66, in Rhode Island. He said he just purchased a brand new Sunova Creek and doesn't know what to do because he feels like selling all of his traditional SUP boards.
FOILING IS THAT GOOD!
The foil effectively Doubles the wave size. This comes from the speed, elevation, ability to fly down the line and ultimate carvability
- 2 ft wave feels like a 4 ft wave
- 3 ft wave feels like a 6 ft wave
- 4 ft wave --> 8 ft wave
- 5 ft wave --> 10 ft wave
- 10 ft wave --> 20 ft wave
In anything less than 10 feet I will grab for my foil. When it gets to be 10ft+ it gets to be a hard decision. Either learn to foil in big stuff, which involves a steep learning curve, or go back to my roots on a SUP.
Stasis is Death
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Aspect ratio is width over length. So wide and skinny front to back is high aspect ratio.
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In other words, a wing that averages 10cm accross (the chord) and 40cm long would have an aspect ratio of 4.0:1. Accordingly, longer/narrower wings (think glider) would have a high aspect ratio.
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Yup, you're doin' it wrong--at least from the pictures. There's two things you need to make sure you have in your head before you foil again. Number one--bail early and often. From the pictures it looks like you and your friend are trying to "save it" meaning you're leaning on the rail to try to recover when the foil is tipping sideways. THAT DOESN'T WORK. All it does is cause the wing to lift more strongly in the bad direction and lets you jackknife on the foil.
I was fortunate to have lots of people around me who know how to foil and who were willing to teach me. That's what they yelled at me whenever I did that. Bail off the back if the foil starts to go out of control. You are NOT going to fix it. Start over.
Number two--both feet need to be across the stringer and your body rotated to face forward. Weight on your front foot. If you are in the right position the foil will come up flat and you can control how quickly it rises. If you aren't, you can't control the wing. It's not the board you are surfing, it's the wing. With your feet in more of a surf stance you can't control pitch and you will induce uncontrolled roll. Foot position and body direction are the two most important things. It's almost impossible to learn to foil without getting that right. Time on the water won't help if you don't get correct position. There are a few people who foil out of position, but they are freaks.
Don't take the pictures of Ruby as a guide, she's standing sideways. She'd have much more roll control if she rotated her trunk to face forward. With your heavy head, and equally heavy butt hanging over the rail sideways, it's very difficult to keep the board from rolling when you don't want it to. People with great balance or experience can do that, but trunk rotated forward, butt and head over the middle of the board is critical for beginners like you and me.
Dig out the videos Sam Pa'e did. I found them very helpful.
Incidentally Beasho, I note the place name on your photos. Three words: Matunuck Oyster Co. Awesome place. Bob, Sue and I went to Matunuk after my nephew's wedding. Flat junk, so we didn't get wet, but as we were leaving I remembered the Oyster joint. I wasn't really hungry but turned around as we were leaving (separate cars) to do a drive by. Wound up eating some oysters and having a beer. Should have called Bob, but it was a pretty weird time of the day to eat
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The early days were really frustrating for me. It gets much easier and once it starts to click rapid improvements, like every session leaps and bounds of more control and longer smoother flights.
This helped me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP7Q9-2p-gI
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Pono, Clay, and Beash...thanx so much for all the advice and attention. I read the Pono/Beasho tips twice and watched the Clay vid twice. hopefully all that info will translate to a more successful go out next foil sesh. I was psyched to foil today but the beach fill operations have pretty much totally effed up my break. I went to the edge of the project about 1/2 mile to the north and it was breaking nice but the offshores were pretty stiff and eventually went sideshore. I am pretty scared to try to school the foil in stiff offshores. So I will have to wait for another glassy/variable wind day to start up again.
Waves were petty fast w/the offshores
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1826/43447877262_13a390a409_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29ckJd7)vlcsnap-2018-07-18-11h17m24s373 (https://flic.kr/p/29ckJd7) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
Water swapped w/a dude from Cardiff who is here in NJ visiting. Pretty sure the board is an Otis
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/840/43495437121_dc305bd14b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29gxu6F)vlcsnap-2018-07-18-11h22m48s448 (https://flic.kr/p/29gxu6F) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
Fill ops north end. Hopefully a few good storms will wash away a bunch of this fill and return our breaks to some form of natural normalcy.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/927/28609161527_ea3b7c1944_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/KA6qZD)vlcsnap-2018-07-18-11h55m33s693 (https://flic.kr/p/KA6qZD) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/835/28609267337_40e0d15e40_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/KA6YrX)vlcsnap-2018-07-18-11h53m55s121 (https://flic.kr/p/KA6YrX) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
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Here is some more motivation.
A couple shots of my daughter Ruby age 15. She IS a strong paddler and had practiced behind the boat for ~ 1 hour over 3 sessions.
Now with 2 hours behind the boat she can comfortably take off, fly and has started to PUMP. Here was her 6th flight attempt in the waves on her second session. She is only giving 'me' 20 minutes of trying and then switches back to regular SUP.
https://youtu.be/dh5PSh0-NRs
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Now with 2 hours behind the boat she can comfortably take off, fly and has started to PUMP. Here was her 6th flight attempt in the waves on her second session.
IMPRESSIVE!! :o Why are you guys this side of the Mississippi?
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3rd session in the books. Ditched the Naish Malolo for the GoFoil Iwa. Seemed easier to fly at my weight (175 lbs). Still quite frightened, mainly because I have very little cntrl on lift off. Did a solid 90 mins w/out touching the foil once so figured I'd quit while I was ahead. Did manage my first successful liftoff/landing after dropping in. So far it's been fly and crash. Not the most graceful landing but it was the first time I didn't fall off after touch down. Trying to concentrate on centering my stance but having some difficulty. So used to having my stance tweaked a few degrees and not at all comfortable w/both feet directly over stringer. More go outs needed. Noticed a hum on my last wave.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/852/29663374228_3c94cb2219_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/McfxGG)vlcsnap-2018-07-20-16h03m32s409 (https://flic.kr/p/McfxGG) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
First Successful Liftoff and Landing
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1784/42817606144_ab61bae8c0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/28eDqyG)vlcsnap-2018-07-20-16h13m57s177 (https://flic.kr/p/28eDqyG) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/854/42817605334_183fefdd19_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/28eDqjJ)vlcsnap-2018-07-20-16h14m08s378 (https://flic.kr/p/28eDqjJ) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
Flying is Addictive!
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1801/42817610564_066e3f22bf_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/28eDrSU)vlcsnap-2018-07-20-16h09m12s856 (https://flic.kr/p/28eDrSU) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
Not even trying to save a faltering trim
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/923/42630168755_e0c0e9b199_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27X5KXz)vlcsnap-2018-07-20-16h06m50s273 (https://flic.kr/p/27X5KXz) by surfercook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/42058618@N05/), on Flickr
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That last shot is great! When someone asks what it's like to learn to foil, they should be shown that photo! ;D
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Well just to show you that you're not alone in the crash department, here's a "Turned/lifted too soon, and breach half the wing".....
https://youtu.be/s_QT5seiM5Q
....to crash back down into the water immediately after.
That is one nice thing I'm finding with the video stuff though, I'm now realizing what's happening when things twitch, glitch, or just can't be explained by what I felt in/on the board. On that one, I thought everything was off, and running just fine, but then saw in the video (when I went frame-by-frame) that as I was turning, I was also still trying to lift at the same time....
This combo of turning (that picks up speed), and elevating the nose caused the left side of the wing to exit the water, lose all lift, and thus immediately head back down to it...ie. the crash that couldn't be saved. Btw, that "tap" with the paddle was more exploratory to find/feel the wing if it was coming up to avoid it, rather than trying to save anything, and why I went off the back of the wave as quickly as I did...with enough time to grab my hat before going in.
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I’m just learning myself, but one thing I’ve found helpful is dropping in straight, get the foil flying, then initiate the turn. Lately I’ve been able to take off on an angle, but it’s tricky. San O is the best spot in CA to learn. Have fun out there.
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Stokin' you guys are helpin'. This foiling is way tougher than expected. But hopefully w/time in I'll get it. I've yet to complete a wave successfully. The whole idea of both feet over the stringer is baffling me. I keep standing like that in my living room w/my shoulders squared off. Warrior stance for sure! :P
Was motivated to edit my foiling clips and I'm lucky to have added footage of two really good surfers foiling.
https://youtu.be/-GSYLsKxbzU
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Watching the video - This is not going to fly.
Feet need to be dead center on the board. When I was learning and my foot was 1/2" off the centerline I would get the wobbles and crash.
COLAS commented that the reason I am able to teach people so quickly is because I have footstraps on the board. It is forced foot placement.
You can not practice this centered stance on a normal SUP because it is UN-natural. Your feet would be so centered you couldn't turn the board.
1) Feet must be Centered on the board
2) Take a Sharpie Marker and put an X Mark 25" forward of the FRONT Tuttle bolt. This is where your front foot MUST Go
3) Back foot should be Centered over the Tuttle Box between the 2 bolts.
Anything else will NOT Fly. If either foot is 1" too far forward you can't leave the water, 1" too far back and you will get bucked off the board, offcenter and you get the wobbles and crash.
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Listen to Zane and Robert here. Getting behind a boat will help but is NOT 100% necessary:
https://youtu.be/iMWsz-waTvA?t=2102
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Surfercook, keep charging but stay safe. How about a front foot strap and a raised area over the foil mount for your rear foot? It really helped me. I am still learning and will be for quite some time. We have not had any surf for a long time so, the boat comes into play. I'll be decreasing the rope length next and hopefully ride the wake soon.
Sup the creek, I licked and licked...maybe the saliva trick works better in saltwater. :D
https://youtu.be/hOMwHfjfsT8
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Keep at it cookieman..... you'll get your wings!
looking good there WWR.... yup, lens's are diabolical.... nothing really works, but licking does as well as anything.
ps.... don't eat glazed donuts on the way to a session ;D
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Appreciating all the tips, advice, and encouragement once again. Gonna keep at it for sure.
WWR, you're looking really comfortable and steady on your foil! Nice job.
That Zane interview was super cool. The main point I got from his advice when first learning was stay centered over the foil, go straight, and try to control lift and descent in small increments.....looked like the M2M gave him a wind perm though! :P
In this Hydro-Foiling Maui vid of his he's sans footstraps and shifts foot placement just slightly every so often for small tweaks in trim. Very cool!
https://youtu.be/6ePHF36adPM
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Thanks guys, sup the creek, lol, no chumming allowed :)
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Feet need to be dead center on the board
1) Feet must be Centered on the board
2) Take a Sharpie Marker and put an X Mark 25" forward of the FRONT Tuttle bolt. This is where your front foot MUST Go
3) Back foot should be Centered over the Tuttle Box between the 2 bolts.
Anything else will NOT Fly. If either foot is 1" too far forward you can't leave the water, 1" too far back and you will get bucked off the board, off center and you get the wobbles and crash.
Just quoting to emphasis the importance of the three points made here.
Also while getting towed behind a boat definitely seems to accelerate the learning curve, it's not as stated mandatory, as many of the guys I'm foiling with have not had the opportunity to do so. Although if you ever get the opportunity...drop everything you're doing to make sure you don't let it slip by. :)
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In this Hydro-Foiling Maui vid of his he's sans footstraps and shifts foot placement just slightly every so often for small tweaks in trim. Very cool!
https://youtu.be/6ePHF36adPM
Let me add this vid that has been my all time favorite foil video to date...love the vibe, the music, and the fun little swell....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahODlWP9fp0
But don't get fooled into thinking that we mere mortals can do what the pros are able to do with the setups they're using. Watched Thomas 'Maximus' Shahinian (https://www.rivierapaddlesurf.com/pages/pro-men-thomas-maximus-shahinian) take an old Riviera 8'x28" softtop, stick a foil on it, and fly it right out of the gate like he'd been doing it for months on end.
At least get a kick pad on your board right behind (or even on) the rear Tuttle bolt....
(https://i.imgur.com/ww7becc.jpg?2)
....and get the "X", a small pad, or strap (that I personally found invaluable when learning) for your front foot placement...
(https://i.imgur.com/bVSMogl.jpg?2)
From there, get for rear foot placed over the mast, and your front foot on the mark or in the strap...before you start turning to catch the wave.
Once you're "locked" in, you will then, and only then have the correct balance to fly the board safely. Outside of that, you're simply setting yourself up for failure, added frustration, and thoughts of giving it up (not to mention an added possibility of injury if you're starting off balance on your takeoffs)....I know, as I was there myself until others got me straightened out, and flying right. :)
JMO...OMMV.
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Sano and Beasho, you guys are the best, man! Totally beating the fundamentals into me. Nice foiling deck setup on that green flyer, Sano.
That video of Zane w/the drone in that mellow bay is sweeet. Island style, brahdah! I liked when he ollied over the inside reef.
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I tried foiling some crappy 8second waist to shoulder beachbreak at Indian Beach on the Oregon coast this weekend. Fiasco! It was so bumpy and crossed up that every time I got up I'd crash and burn. Very frustrating but it has me committed to getting my downwinding foil chops rolling in the Columbia.
Damn the water is cold on the Oregon Coast. Instant Ice Cream headache.
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I tried foiling some crappy 8second waist to shoulder beachbreak at Indian Beach on the Oregon coast this weekend. Fiasco! It was so bumpy and crossed up that every time I got up I'd crash and burn
So what are you saying, the conditions I was in my first coupla go outs were less than optimal? :P I have to agree! I hope we get some smooth water soon so I can try and muster up the courage to actually stand correctly on the foil and fly the darn thing. Curious if you've ever visited NJ, ponon...guessin yes. You think Oregon has cold water? You should jump in here around mid January!