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Stand Up Paddle => SUP General => Topic started by: Zooport on July 10, 2018, 11:35:45 AM

Title: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Zooport on July 10, 2018, 11:35:45 AM
I'm seeing "cheapo boards flooding the market", not as many SUP events, not many SUPs showing around my home breaks, Dogpatch the only break that is still loaded with SUPs, SUP shops selling off, others disappearing.  WUWT?  I'm not worried about it because SUP is here to stay in one form or another.  But I was interested in opinions on the health of the industry.  Is the SUP boom over?  Will the general public be moving on to other fads leaving only a remnant of us dedicated SUPers to carry on the sport?
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Dusk Patrol on July 10, 2018, 11:47:58 AM
On trips to SoCal in the last three years I see relatively little evidence of SUS. Nothing but some Corky Carrolls in the Hobie stores, only some race boards at Infinity. Even lightly represented at the surf spots. I know there are Zoners with more complete knowledge, but this is my observation from the outside.  SUPs absence from the landscape relative to the population was striking.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: TallDude on July 10, 2018, 01:16:34 PM
I wouldn't use the word 'tanking', more like 'settling' or 'adjusting'. The West Coast race scene has shrank almost back to wear it started. Hobie is out of the race board business. Riviera is out of the SUP business. Infinity is hanging in there with a loyal local racing and surfing crowd. I would imagine everyone on the west coast's numbers are down. As far as the recreational scene goes, SUP's have found their place among the kayaks and canoes. Great fun, easy to rent, and the harbor is full of them everyday. For those who want to race still, the outrigger clubs have their ocean series races throughout the year, with hundreds of SUP entries. There are groups of paddlers every morning who meet in our local harbor and paddle 3 or 4 miles daily. Costco is still selling a lot of SUP's.
SUP is not going away like windsurfing did in SoCal in the 80's. It's here to stay.

In places like Hawaii where they have a unique micro economy, it seems to be still going strong. They have downwind races and island to island waterman paddles that are part of their culture, not so much a trend. Here in SoCal I still see interest in racing with newcomers. They will maintain the interest in racing locally, and keep it alive. Now that there are less people making race boards, it will just strengthen the few companies that are still making them. 
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Subber on July 10, 2018, 01:36:19 PM
Everyone is moving over to Foiling!
 8)
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Zooport on July 10, 2018, 01:43:41 PM
Everyone is moving over to Foiling!
 8)

Yes, it seems.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: connector14 on July 10, 2018, 02:24:43 PM
" Now that there are less people making race boards, it will just strengthen the few companies that are still making them. "

I hope that is the case. Once one has experienced paddling a variety of board designs one soon gets a desire to use what works best. I think using the term "race board" really puts off many potential buyers. I have many friends that have zero interest in racing but still like the idea of standup paddling. Their lack of experience and exposure leads them to believe that anything called a "race board" is going to be too difficult or inappropriate for general use. This is where a great rental and lesson facility like for example: Big Winds in Hood River does an excellent job of presenting the options and detailing the differences and matching folks to the right product for their use.
As for growth of SUP,  I can only speak from what I see here on Hood Canal, WA. It is very seasonal and I haven't seen any increase in the number of paddlers out. Kayaking is more prevalent and I think that speaks to the fact that it is much easier for most folks. You so many "cheap" plastic kayaks....but also a good number of sleek, expensive boats out...especially with groups that show up in the summer for events. The local resort Alderbrook Inn sponsors an annual Saint Paddles Day event....but the weather is often still pretty iffy for most and it doesn't draw a large crowd...just the usual diehards from the Puget Sound area. I paddle year round...so I guess I am a diehard....and I now have 4 boards and 4 kayaks....so I am doing my part to keep the shops in business :).......
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: JEG on July 10, 2018, 02:39:30 PM
Yup, definitely foiling is taking over the world and maybe oneday I'll have a go.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: TallDude on July 10, 2018, 03:41:41 PM
Everyone is moving over to Foiling!
 8)
Not quite. I bet foiling goes the way of windsurfing and kite boarding. Big learning curve, cost lots of money, and you need lots of time on your hands to practice. The first part doesn't bother me, but the money and time does. There are a handful of kiter's in our neck of the woods. No windsurfers at all. I'm actually torn between spending money on an OC-1 or a Foil set up. About the same cost, but a bigger learning curve with the foil. Honestly, I'd probably use the OC-1 way more.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: PonoBill on July 10, 2018, 04:10:15 PM
It took much longer than normal since SUP as a general sport was born in a recession, but nearly every sport goes through an unsustainable growth cycle that dies back to something real when people discover it's more difficult than sitting on the couch playing video games.

Racing was always weird. How does a sport that is hardly visible in a google trend, with all the spectator excitement of race walking or ultimate Frisbee,  support international racing with big purses. Answer: Not for long. Toss in goofy rules that eliminated half the potential participants and a focus on pros that alienated the bulk of the racers (After the splashy elite podium celebration comes the announcement: "Your medal is in that pile over there, you know where you finished so be sure to take the right one").

There will still be some survivors. Those that know how to market, those that know how to give a little love back, those that present an interesting challenge. But yeah. As expected. The easy stuff is over, now it gets tougher. And smaller.

The selloff is the chinese crap board dudes finding no market for the last four containers they bought and now they need to unload and exit. Bye, bye. Won't miss you.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Weasels wake on July 10, 2018, 04:52:07 PM
Everyone is moving over to Foiling!
 8)
Not quite. I bet foiling goes the way of windsurfing and kite boarding. Big learning curve, cost lots of money, and you need lots of time on your hands to practice. The first part doesn't bother me, but the money and time does. There are a handful of kiter's in our neck of the woods. No windsurfers at all. I'm actually torn between spending money on an OC-1 or a Foil set up. About the same cost, but a bigger learning curve with the foil. Honestly, I'd probably use the OC-1 way more.
Agree 100%, you used great examples, windsurfing peaked in the early to mid nineties, kite boarding, from what I can tell in my neck of the coast, peaked about 3 years ago, but both of those sports are still alive.  Foiling in windsurfing is not new, that started back in the late 80's but has gained a resurgence lately because of kite foiling and better foils.  So foiling is kind of like a new way to look at older sports, but it too will also peak, any maybe sooner than later, can't really tell yet.  Everything peaks, I've got a couple of friends who went to kite foiling but quit after getting it wired, they got board with not moving their feet around, just standing there.  I'm sure that applies to kite foiling more than other types of foiling though.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: digger71 on July 10, 2018, 05:10:25 PM
...with all the spectator excitement of race walking or ultimate Frisbee

My first thought was that ultimate frisbee had to be a lot more exciting to watch, and then Google told me there was actually a professional league for it!  Certainly no purses or much of an audience, but their highlights are much better than SUP :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7h5nNYyH8M
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Luc Benac on July 10, 2018, 05:22:24 PM
I think that it is time to hold on to your favourite boards and really consider your next purchase. There are some many quality boards that can change hands between aficionados of the sport.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Dusk Patrol on July 10, 2018, 07:28:42 PM
^ Related, I just sold two nice All Stars, which I liked, but also feel relieved to not be trapped owning too many boards if the used market goes south. As is kind of being described in this and the "Cheapo boards flooding the market" threads. The days of 'renting' boards through buying and reselling at will may be gone.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: surfcowboy on July 10, 2018, 07:51:44 PM
Tanked.

3 years ago. We're just pilots of the ghost ship.

I'm glad. You can still buy customs and there's enough Chinese boards to handle the inland crowd. We're fine. Small, but fine. I didn't start because it was popular. Did you guys?
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: ukgm on July 10, 2018, 11:55:50 PM
^ Related, I just sold two nice All Stars, which I liked, but also feel relieved to not be trapped owning too many boards if the used market goes south. As is kind of being described in this and the "Cheapo boards flooding the market" threads. The days of 'renting' boards through buying and reselling at will may be gone.

In a market where you'll be lucky to recoup 50% of the retail price after 12 months is pretty high rental anyway.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: ukgm on July 11, 2018, 12:10:51 AM
1) It took much longer than normal since SUP as a general sport was born in a recession, but nearly every sport goes through an unsustainable growth cycle that dies back to something real when people discover it's more difficult than sitting on the couch playing video games.

2) Racing was always weird. How does a sport that is hardly visible in a google trend, with all the spectator excitement of race walking.

3) There will still be some survivors. Those that know how to market, those that know how to give a little love back, those that present an interesting challenge.


1) The key thing moving forwards is the relationship between recreational paddling, racing and elite racing. If the narrative of those is stitched together well, it'll survive and (if MTB enduro is anything to go by) can thrive. However, SUP is going the other way ably assisted by the fact that nobody is holding the wheel and the reindeer doing the towing are frisky to go anywhere they like.

2) So is sailing, triathlon and modern pentathlon. You can survive it but it all looks very niche at that point.

3) I expect SUP racing to go the route of surfing whereby lots do it recreationally but only a few brand ambassadors compete and are really corporate billboards rather than apex athleticisism. The possible way out for this is to create desirable race formats or iconic events that have widespread accessibility and appeal (as ironman was originally, or marathon d'sable, etc).
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Califoilia on July 11, 2018, 12:41:56 AM
Oh it's dying. The sand is as crowded as ever, but the surf is wide open most of the time. At 2 o'clock today on admittedly not the greatest of days, but one that we'd see plenty of SUPers of all sorts out on in years past....there wasn't a single one out from "Old Mans" south as far as the eye could see. When I paddled out a 11:00, there were six foilers (SUPs and surf), and less than a dozen SUSers in that same local. Not that I'm complaining, but it's definitely hit a lull, if not a complete exodus of the "it was fun while it lasted crowd", and all were seeing are mostly just the same "regulars" who've been doing since it wasn't "cool", but the butt of all the "sweeper" jokes who persisted on regardless.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: TallDude on July 11, 2018, 08:08:10 AM
"but the butt of all the "sweeper" jokes have persisted on regardless."
And always will......
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: stoneaxe on July 11, 2018, 09:34:32 AM
The race scene is all but dead...I've lost interest anyway. I'm considering turning the 18' Speedboard on the ceiling of my garage into a rowing scull..... :P
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: JimK on July 11, 2018, 11:22:41 AM
Things are going well here in New Jersey & PA
Chinese Junk is a reality and something I pretty much ignore because I don't have to Fight'm I'm getting a few who bought junk (Chinese, Costco or Internet) and they are (of the few) who actually join the sport and realize junk is just junk no matter the price. I market to them (the few) and get them set up right for a "GOOD" price and they are very appreciative ...I even got tips delivering boards with some pointers on how/where to have more fun on their SUP's

Its all fun

JimK
Extreme Windsurfing

Oh yeah Windsurfing has been growing the past 2 yrs
Kites are holding their own with slight growth
Foils are Booming
Just thought I'd let you know
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Zooport on July 11, 2018, 11:52:42 AM
Things are going well here in New Jersey & PA
Chinese Junk is a reality and something I pretty much ignore because I don't have to Fight'm I'm getting a few who bought junk (Chinese, Costco or Internet) and they are (of the few) who actually join the sport and realize junk is just junk no matter the price. I market to them (the few) and get them set up right for a "GOOD" price and they are very appreciative ...I even got tips delivering boards with some pointers on how/where to have more fun on their SUP's

Its all fun

JimK
Extreme Windsurfing

Oh yeah Windsurfing has been growing the past 2 yrs
Kites are holding their own with slight growth
Foils are Booming
Just thought I'd let you know

U da bomb.  I'm very happy with the Creek you sold me and the price was good. 
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: supsurf-tw on July 11, 2018, 05:54:41 PM
You just have so many used boards in good condition for cheap that it's difficult to rationalize buying a new board. It was bound to happen.....
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Zooport on July 11, 2018, 06:02:35 PM
You should talk...except you made all yours. 
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: supsurf-tw on July 11, 2018, 06:23:09 PM
You should talk...except you made all yours.
   I actually give my boards away when I'm done with em. Getting a few hundred bucks for a board to me is a waste of energy and petty. If a friend or a friend of a friend expresses interest in one of my boards in my quiver and I'm done with it I gift it. Gotta spread the aloha always.

TW
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Zooport on July 11, 2018, 06:29:42 PM
Can I be your friend? :)
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Jacko on July 11, 2018, 09:27:43 PM
The market is definitely  harder now than say 3 or 4 years ago but i don't think this is such a bad thing. What it does do is make companies work harder and not get lazy and the ones that survive will be the ones who take on the challenge. It's not all about making a cheaper product but more making a better product and this has been our policy from the start. Every month we look at what we can do better and how we can improve as a company and i can tell you for us trying to cut corners to make a cheaper product has never been on the table and in fact for us we now pay far more to make our boards better.
I do feel that maybe the second grade top riders might find it harder and harder unless they really have something behind them to help companies sell boards, the few top riders will be safe if they keep growing with their brands but they will have to become more versatile kind of like a Micheal booth for example they have to realize winning is only a very small part of what makes them important.

The cheap stuff will stay but those players will change all the time as once they lose all their money they will move on to the next get rich quick concept!! 

Our whole goal is to only grow once we can afford to do so, and never think you are bigger than you are as we are all still small fish in a small bubble.

Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: ukgm on July 12, 2018, 04:56:57 AM
1) The market is definitely  harder now than say 3 or 4 years ago but i don't think this is such a bad thing.

2) What it does do is make companies work harder and not get lazy and the ones that survive will be the ones who take on the challenge.

3) but they will have to become more versatile kind of like a Micheal booth for example they have to realize winning is only a very small part of what makes them important.

4) Our whole goal is to only grow once we can afford to do so, and never think you are bigger than you are as we are all still small fish in a small bubble.

1) I know that most brands now have been progressively slimming their own race teams down. As per 3), value doesn't equate to race results. The sport is too small for that to be relevant.

2) The problem is that 'being lazy' is being dealt by brands with the need to bring out new board designs every 12 months and that is part of the problem. Anyone who knows anything about product R&D knows that's marketing driven idiocy.

3) I agree. Look at this way, a friend of mine won one or two relatively important domestic level races and has never been offered a team ride. I put out a video that gets 1500 hits within a fortnight on youtube as a favour to some friends and have been asked a few times as a result. That tells you where any aspiring paddlers who take sponsorship seriously need to spend their time...... and its not in the gym or on the podium.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: PonoBill on July 12, 2018, 06:58:39 AM
#3 is certainly true, though the gym and the podium can be part of the package. Living your life online is certainly not for everyone, and everyone won't be successful at it (though some of the disgusting weenies that are would make one think so). Living the life of a pro racer with constant attention to the social media aspect is marketable. Kai Lenny does it in a less intense fashion. Slater Trout does it very well, with multiple sports. The simple reality is there isn't much return on investment in sponsoring a racer who just wins races not many people care about, but the ROI can be huge for a racer living and sharing a lifestyle that millions of people aspire to.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: SaMoSUP on July 12, 2018, 08:35:09 AM
Here's a board company that seems to have a good product and marketing it in a different way from the more established SUP brands.

First I love that board. Looks well crafted, looks kinda fast, has convenient features: snap on fins, retractable paddle holder, tie-downs, ram mounts, and built in CUPHOLDER/storage. Kinda like a SUV commercial.

The messaging caters to its demographic: lifestyle oriented, practical, upscale, recreational. The current SUP companies mostly have action sports messaging to a non-action sport demo. Somewhat like showing a sports car commercial to a mom. Perhaps the marketing groups of most of the SUP companies are rooted in the surf/action sport industry so they're not thinking out of that box. They're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole by forcing SUP to the younger action sports demo rather than the more mature recreational upscale folks.

And these are made in the US.

I have a new definition for SUP...Sport Utility Paddleboard  8)



https://youtu.be/NDTgdwd7DJA
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: TallDude on July 12, 2018, 08:47:29 AM
I think a spot for a dog food and water bowl would be a bigger seller in my area. And a deck pad all the way to the nose.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Area 10 on July 12, 2018, 08:51:22 AM
A cup holder? Now I’ve seen everything. Doesn’t the coffee or whatever in your cup skosh all over the deck when you are paddling? It certainly plays to the stereotype of the American as someone who can’t go 5 mins without stuffing something into their cakehole:)
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: SaMoSUP on July 12, 2018, 09:07:00 AM
Are you afraid of getting the deck wet on a SUP? There are many spill proof cups out there just like for cars. If you noticed that cupholder is also a sealed storage space where you can put your keys or wallet.

Better a cakehole than an asshole :)
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Weasels wake on July 12, 2018, 09:19:13 AM
A cup holder? Now I’ve seen everything. Doesn’t the coffee or whatever in your cup skosh all over the deck when you are paddling? It certainly plays to the stereotype of the American as someone who can’t go 5 mins without stuffing something into their cakehole:)
You never seem to miss an opportunity to slam.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Area 10 on July 12, 2018, 09:20:19 AM
Are you afraid of getting the deck wet on a SUP? There are many spill proof cups out there just like for cars. If you noticed that cupholder is also a sealed storage space where you can put your keys or wallet.

Better a cakehole than an asshole :)
Storage space might be useful although would you trust your keys and wallet in it? Better to have a dry bag and deck lashings?

At least we know now where you put your keys and wallet when you are out paddling ;)

I’ll wait for the model that has an icebox, sofa and tv fitted on it. It should sell well in Mississippi:

https://brandongaille.com/list-average-human-weight-by-country-and-american-states/
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Board Stiff on July 12, 2018, 01:30:37 PM
The SUP scene never took off in northern New England like it had out west, but it's definitely declined from its peak a couple years ago. We used to get get 10-20 racers out every week for a SUP series sponsored by the local SUP shop. Now the shop is closed, we're lucky to get 5-6 people out for any kind of group paddling, and many of the former racers have tired of racing. The used market was never great here, and without the local SUP shop feeding race and downwind boards into the market (often through end of season closeout deals), I expect there will be a lot fewer of these boards still hitting the secondary market.

There's still a core of folks that are passionate about SUP around here, and even some new folks trying it out for the first time. But I think the flood of new paddlers has subsided, and many racers have either moved on to other sports or at least tired of racing.  :(
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Jradtke on July 12, 2018, 02:55:16 PM
What did you expect?  Outrageous prices, dog accessories, yoga, silly hats/glove/shirt/footwear combos, hyper specific boards, poor conditions, inland sup, over use of the word aloha, overrated self proclaimed experts.  All factors that turned me off to the whole thing.  I still have a board and I still quietly shred waves but I will never buy another board. 
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: addapost on July 12, 2018, 06:43:56 PM
What did you expect?  Outrageous prices, dog accessories, yoga, silly hats/glove/shirt/footwear combos, hyper specific boards, poor conditions, inland sup, over use of the word aloha, overrated self proclaimed experts.  All factors that turned me off to the whole thing.  I still have a board and I still quietly shred waves but I will never buy another board.
This x 10
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: ukgm on July 13, 2018, 12:44:17 AM
What did you expect?  Outrageous prices, dog accessories, yoga, silly hats/glove/shirt/footwear combos, hyper specific boards, poor conditions, inland sup, over use of the word aloha, overrated self proclaimed experts.  All factors that turned me off to the whole thing.  I still have a board and I still quietly shred waves but I will never buy another board.

Its pretty simple really - all that really matters is do you enjoy to SUP, yes or no. Anything else is really social networking adulation or currency and of little actual value really.

I had a weird experience yesterday whereby I got back on my board (having spent the last 6 weeks surfskiing instead). My first thought was how frustrating SUP was by being so damn slow and then afterwards when I remembered how physically demanding trying to go even remotely fast is. I find myself now questioning my own motives. Most of my local fellow local racers are still fast but not racing much and many are transitioning to Outrigger.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Area 10 on July 13, 2018, 02:42:20 AM
It’s all wall-to-wall beginners on super-cheap inflatables now, where I live. The kind of people who have never done any exercise in their lives, can barely swim, and have no idea about the ocean or weather conditions. So I think this will be self-limiting: anyone who has not tried SUP who is watching these people will not want to try it. They make it look like an activity for dorks only.

SUP is good for many surf spots which are tough on a prone surfboard. Which is where it started. And I think it will go back to that. Downwinding a SUP is also pretty good fun so that will probably survive as an ultra-niche activity carried out by a few, in a few specialist locations. But many of the current breed who will spend large amounts of dough on equipment now seem to be moving to other paddlesports or foiling, or taking up emtb etc. The early adopters and ocean athletes have left the building, as thousands of “late adopters” buy cheap plastic inflatables that will be used three times and then pollute the environment for the next millennia.

The level of lack of knowledge in some of the new “inflatable SUPers” is scary. I live in a country where there is a huge tidal reach. A couple of weeks ago a guy came up to me as I was loading my SUP and asked me where the beach was. We were standing 10m from the water, so I didn’t quite understand what he was asking. He said that his friend had told him to come here to SUP because there was a nice sand beach. I had to point out to him that it was high tide, and that at low tide there would be at least half a mile of sand beach, but at high tide it is all covered by water. He was very confused by this, and didn’t seem to know what a tide was.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: ukgm on July 13, 2018, 04:08:35 AM
He said that his friend had told him to come here to SUP because there was a nice sand beach. I had to point out to him that it was high tide, and that at low tide there would be at least half a mile of sand beach, but at high tide it is all covered by water. He was very confused by this, and didn’t seem to know what a tide was.

I've had that. True story:

Back in '97 the record label for the rock group Oasis were down on the stretch of beach I was working on with them then trying to capture a photo which would form the cover of the single 'All around the world'. They wanted to take a shot from the air looking down on the beach with the water slightly overlapping the words written in the sand. They were becoming frustrated when they couldn't get the right shot and when they came and spoke to me about it, were completely confused why the water over the course of two hours was now 20ft away from where it had been. I had to explain the tidal system and they still didn't see what the moon had to do with it. They didn't get it and thought I was nuts.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: supthecreek on July 13, 2018, 04:27:19 AM
Jarvis SUP has been around for years.

He makes gorgeous handmade wooden SUPs and is simply a passionate guy who has zero interest in racing or impressing the critics...... just happy to make boards for his area, to be used as he sees SUP.... a great leisure time activity to enjoy nature and get some exercise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWfhY7QgTUU

I believe that the future of SUP would be better served by a supportive and nurturing community, rather than hyper critical elitists, that seem to have no limit to their interest in being faster, more knowledgeable and smarter than the rest of the simply stoked SUPsters.

My SUP crew is alive and doing well.... we are more stoked than ever!
And my love of taking the slow lane, alone or with friends, will never die :)

I would love a cup holder... it would come in handy as I cruise the edges for hours.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: ukgm on July 13, 2018, 05:43:42 AM
I believe that the future of SUP would be better served by a supportive and nurturing community, rather than hyper critical elitists, that seem to have no limit....
Can't we/shouldn't we have both ? Isn't that the point - i.e. to be inclusive ?
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: manta on July 13, 2018, 05:54:28 AM
We had a very vibrant SUP scene in our neck of the woods for a few years and it has really slowed down a LOT. I made the mistake of paddling a surfski about a year ago and for the most part never paddle my SUP anymore. Happy story though as I did a time trial on a SUP earlier this week after not paddling a SUP in anger for months and posted my fastest time over 6km ever. There seems to be some cross over what or how much I am not really sure.

Personally the value of SUP or any sport is very individual. The other major consideration is price for good gear. I can buy a surfski that is 6 meters long and weighs 9kg that will outlast the best made SUP. So when you start looking at cost, longevity etc. it makes sense to spend the money where the return in use will be the best over time.

I still enjoy my SUP and there are some days that a SUP is simply the best tool for the job based on conditions etc.

Let's hope SUP is able to stand in its own identity as a sport.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: supthecreek on July 13, 2018, 05:57:54 AM
I believe that the future of SUP would be better served by a supportive and nurturing community, rather than hyper critical elitists, that seem to have no limit....
Can't we/shouldn't we have both ? Isn't that the point - i.e. to be inclusive ?

Hyper critical and insults are what I am referencing, they are not welcoming where I come from, respectful discussion is a more productive way to attract new paddlers to a discussion.

There is no right way, best board or preferred demographic.
Everyone should be accepted and respected for the way they enjoy their paddleboard.... of whatever brand.

People who lack knowledge are exactly who seasoned paddlers should be happy to help..... not scoff at.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: SaMoSUP on July 13, 2018, 06:32:14 AM
I was paddling in Marina Del Rey harbor this past Wednesday evening with a couple of people on my SUP crew. We saw about 15 people out mostly newbies. Some of them were attempting to reach the breakwater to get a peek at the ocean and the sunset. It's about 2 miles from the launch point.

We always cheer these folks on..."You're almost there! The sunset looks gorgeous!"

We used to do a Friday night race here a few years back. That scene is dead. But the recreational paddling is still thriving.

I used to be one of those "people" who could NOT swim, and had no idea about the ocean. Luckily I had a nurturing community that encouraged me and I've made some great friends in the process. Now I'm mostly SUSing. I would never have thought in just a few years since starting this sport that I'd be a "waterman" lol. Now I'm happy to give back to the sport and show the newbies some stoke.

Ok I'm off to dawn patrol now.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: PonoBill on July 13, 2018, 07:10:55 AM
Recreational stand up paddling is alive and well in Hood River. But like everywhere else, racing not so much, though we have two events coming up that draw a lot of participants--both have downwinding elements. I've tried surfski and OC1, own an OC1, rarely use it. Besides just the persistent belly fat issue (I don't fold well) I prefer standup for downwinding--I like to see where I'm going.

It was nearly 100 degrees yesterday, so last night the river was full of people, probably fifty on standup, a few boaters, lots of folks just hanging out on the sandbar or in the water. I brought boards but wound up just swimming with my daughter, who smoked me. I forgot she used to be a competitive swimmer. Diane, Elvis (my daughter Elizabeth) and I walked down the sandbar and enjoyed the water and the activity. A local jazz quartet was playing on the dock near the sand bar cafe, and we could hear them while we walked down the sandbar. It was a perfect accompaniment and they were very good. Great night, spectacular town, great people.

Down at the new outdoor amphitheater, there was a rock group playing and food trucks and local breweries set up in advance of the weekend I guess. This weekend is Kite4Cancer, an oddly named (at least to my ears, I'm kind of against cancer) but successful fundraiser, and they were setting up a massive array of tents and towers at the Event Center. We may not have much wind if the heat to the west of us persists, but no one really cares. It's a party.

Stand Up boards are ideal for this kind of lazy summer recreation, much better than boats of any flavor. That's where the market is. Jarvis is ahead of his time.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: ukgm on July 13, 2018, 08:01:30 AM
Happy story though as I did a time trial on a SUP earlier this week after not paddling a SUP in anger for months and posted my fastest time over 6km ever. There seems to be some cross over what or how much I am not really sure.


Oddly, I saw the exact same thing this very week too. I was actually going to start a thread on this at some point. I don't know what the crossover could be as the stroke and muscle recruitment is different. I did find a little stability adjustment needed for around half an hour or so and I eventually felt some premature muscle fatigue but overall I seemed as fast, if not faster, than ever.

Damn odd.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Area 10 on July 13, 2018, 08:12:54 AM
It’s not that unusual, in my experience, especially as you get older, and with sports that tax a lot of physiological systems. It’s usually just a sign that you’ve been overtraining in your chosen sport and should cross-train a bit more instead. Once you are over 40, forget really intensive training for a particular sport, except for practicing technique. It just doesn’t work. Train less to improve is a tough principal to follow if you are a “training robot”, so you may have to force yourself to switch between sports, and enforce rest days where you sit on your hands and are left with nothing to distract yourself from the meaninglessness of existence :)

So, it’s probably time to throw away the training manuals that were written on the presupposition that the target audience was a 25-year old, and start learning the very odd realities of being an older athlete. Getting faster by *not* doing your sport is just one of them. If no-one has written a book on this yet (ie. training for the older athlete) you should: there could be lots of money to be made :)
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: mrbig on July 13, 2018, 09:07:54 AM
As a 70 year old awful racer, I have recently gone back to Larry Cain and practice slowly the stages of the stroke the way he broke it down.
Also paddling much more frequently, slow
 (comes very naturally), and  longer.
My lungs finally have recovered from my underwater red tide breathing experiments.
Also am out of the House of Horrors!
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: PonoBill on July 13, 2018, 09:32:56 AM
I broke my personal best lap record racing my vintage race car by over two seconds a few weeks ago, after not racing cars for nearly two years. Two seconds is ridiculous, insane, absurd, impossible considering how long I've been racing cars and motorcycles (50+ years) and my assumption that both my reflexes and skill set have diminished over the two-year hiatus. "Not Training" might apply to non-muscle related activity as well, though I get some odd kind of workout racing. I'm physically exhausted after a 30-minute race.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Bean on July 13, 2018, 09:47:40 AM
Reminds me of the Viet Nam POW's that reported improvemetns in their golf game after being holed up for yars with nothing much to do but visualize their swing.  Interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: ukgm on July 13, 2018, 03:49:53 PM
1) It’s not that unusual, in my experience, especially as you get older, and with sports that tax a lot of physiological systems.

2) It’s usually just a sign that you’ve been overtraining in your chosen sport and should cross-train a bit more instead.

3) Once you are over 40, forget really intensive training for a particular sport, except for practicing technique. It just doesn’t work.

4) Train less to improve is a tough principal to follow if you are a “training robot”, so you may have to force yourself to switch between sports, and enforce rest days where you sit on your hands and are left with nothing to distract yourself from the meaninglessness of existence :)

5)  If no-one has written a book on this yet (ie. training for the older athlete) you should: there could be lots of money to be made :)

1) if you're inferring that older athletes are over trained due to not adjusting for their aging limitations, that's entirely possible and very common.

2) I don't know how you or others do it but I use software to track my fitness, fatigue and freshness. Once you understand training load, you'll realise that cross training doesn't alleviate fatigue. This is really about under-recovery in general, not the need to cross train. I find cross training is actually better for injury prevention.

3) I'd say this is poor advice. My own experience certainly doesn't support this. Your vo2 max and peak powers are declining - use them or lose them (but increase recovery from any intensity of training as you age).

4) I would agree in general .....but again, I would not suggest cross training is synonymous with recovery.

5) Renowned endurance coach Joe Friel has done this. I think it was called 'fit over 50' or such like.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: SaMoSUP on July 13, 2018, 04:08:20 PM
I have not gone distance paddling for about 9 months until a couple of days ago. I was surprised that I was still able to hit my average one and two mile sprint times as when I was race  training regularly. I've only been paddle surfing in the past 9 months no other workouts. Been eating like crap too. So basically all that diligent race training I did in the past was a myth.

No wonder I lost my interest in SUP racing. Might still do PPG just for fun if it's still happening this year.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: connector14 on July 13, 2018, 05:37:56 PM
"Not Training" might apply to non-muscle related activity as well, though I get some odd kind of workout racing. I'm physically exhausted after a 30-minute race."

I think I read somewhere that pilots who flew the SR71 Blackbird often lost about 5 lbs on a mission. (while just sitting strapped into a seat much like a race car driver). Would be interesting to see recordings of their heart rate during the mission. I guess if it was a particularly "hairy" mission,  it could have resulted in 5 lbs of shit being scared out of them ):.....Pono......did you have to change your shorts after that race?!
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Bean on July 13, 2018, 05:48:24 PM
You do perspire at a faster rate at high altitudes
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Area 10 on July 13, 2018, 06:55:29 PM
1) It’s not that unusual, in my experience, especially as you get older, and with sports that tax a lot of physiological systems.

2) It’s usually just a sign that you’ve been overtraining in your chosen sport and should cross-train a bit more instead.

3) Once you are over 40, forget really intensive training for a particular sport, except for practicing technique. It just doesn’t work.

4) Train less to improve is a tough principal to follow if you are a “training robot”, so you may have to force yourself to switch between sports, and enforce rest days where you sit on your hands and are left with nothing to distract yourself from the meaninglessness of existence :)

5)  If no-one has written a book on this yet (ie. training for the older athlete) you should: there could be lots of money to be made :)

1) if you're inferring that older athletes are over trained due to not adjusting for their aging limitations, that's entirely possible and very common.

2) I don't know how you or others do it but I use software to track my fitness, fatigue and freshness. Once you understand training load, you'll realise that cross training doesn't alleviate fatigue. This is really about under-recovery in general, not the need to cross train. I find cross training is actually better for injury prevention.

3) I'd say this is poor advice. My own experience certainly doesn't support this. Your vo2 max and peak powers are declining - use them or lose them (but increase recovery from any intensity of training as you age).

4) I would agree in general .....but again, I would not suggest cross training is synonymous with recovery.

5) Renowned endurance coach Joe Friel has done this. I think it was called 'fit over 50' or such like.
Ok, so first thing to do IMO is to throw out what you think you know about training. It’s all completely different in the ageing athlete. Why? I don’t know. But here are some ideas.

First of all, performance is not about fitness as you age, it’s about health. The best way to stay healthy as you age is to take the same approach to your body as you do to your diet: little and often, avoid things that are bad for you, and make sure there is plenty of variety in your “activity diet”. Cross-training in the older athlete isn’t really “cross-training” is about variety.

Why does varying activity help so much? It’s probably because as we age we start to restrict our activities. We “play” less, and we start to concentrate and narrow  our activities both during the day and in our exercise routines. We turn staying fit into something we fit into our day rather than something that was central to our day like we did when we were younger. Increased job and family responsibilities and having things like cars etc all reduce “non-sport” activity as well.

All these tiny little changes in the variety of our movements and activities start to lead to the systems we do use being used too often, relative to others, and we start to build a body that is physiologically unbalanced. Range of motion and flexibility start to atrophy, almost without us even noticing it. And so often range of motion and flexibility are the scaffolding of power in sports.

This likely happens at a neural level too. “All work and no play make Jack a dull boy”? It’s the same with physical activity - “all training and no fun activity make Jack’s body (and the neural circuits that support it) bored and tired”. Give your body and brain a lot of variety in its diet. It will reward you with better performance.

So, overtraining in the older athlete is often not about “overtraining” as you are thinking about it. It’s about health. Put your body under constant pressure and little variety and it won’t matter what measurements you are taking or what your are monitoring. It will start to protect itself. You will plateau. And health will decline. Restore your health by playing - just doing everything and anything active, and try not to get competitive about it. Maybe even throw away your heart rate monitors, training diaries and all that crap. They only tell you what you already know anyway. Just do it for the sheer fun of it. Play - it shouldn’t feel like “exercise” at all. And then when you do come round to your competitive activity again, having built a healthy and well-balanced and rested body, you will find yourself performing at a higher rate than if you’d carried on pounding away at your training routines day after day.

Well, that’s my theory, anyway. The link between training intensity and volume and performance is completely different in the older athlete IMO. Do more things to a lesser intensity if you want to perform best, and if it’s not FUN it may be doing you more harm than good. Wherever in your training schedules you have the words “intensity” or “volume”, replace them with the words “variety” and “fun”.

Try it and see :)
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: all~wet on July 13, 2018, 09:11:39 PM
Quote
Hyper critical and insults are what I am referencing, they are not welcoming where I come from, respectful discussion is a more productive way to attract new paddlers to a discussion.

There is no right way, best board or preferred demographic.
Everyone should be accepted and respected for the way they enjoy their paddleboard.... of whatever brand.

People who lack knowledge are exactly who seasoned paddlers should be happy to help..... not scoff at.

Right on! Wise words that would serve us all well across all aspects of life.

Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: pdxmike on July 13, 2018, 09:30:41 PM
Reminds me of the Viet Nam POW's that reported improvemetns in their golf game after being holed up for yars with nothing much to do but visualize their swing.  Interesting stuff.
That is interesting.  I used to drive my swim teammates crazy by disappearing from workouts for months, then coming back with my strokes better than ever.  I always told them I'd been "visualizing" (along with "tapering").  And I really had been.  I think the time away allowed some of my ingrained bad habits to slip away.  I'd be a bit slower due to lack of conditioning, but not nearly as slow as I should have been.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: PonoBill on July 13, 2018, 10:15:48 PM
"Not Training" might apply to non-muscle related activity as well, though I get some odd kind of workout racing. I'm physically exhausted after a 30-minute race."

I think I read somewhere that pilots who flew the SR71 Blackbird often lost about 5 lbs on a mission. (while just sitting strapped into a seat much like a race car driver). Would be interesting to see recordings of their heart rate during the mission. I guess if it was a particularly "hairy" mission,  it could have resulted in 5 lbs of shit being scared out of them ):.....Pono......did you have to change your shorts after that race?!

Actually, I thought my times were going to be slow because I was never scared. I get a little nervous when I'm pushing the edge. One of my mentors in car racing taught me how to "hustle" a car in a corner.  That means pushing mid-corner speed to the point that you have no edge left to push. I didn't think I was hustling, but my lap times were remarkable.

I changed up a few things lately--foiling, learning to kitesurf again, adding some heavy weight training, improving my TIG welding and metalwork skills. Who knows, maybe it all helped.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: pdxmike on July 13, 2018, 10:18:50 PM
I believe that the future of SUP would be better served by a supportive and nurturing community, rather than hyper critical elitists, that seem to have no limit....
Can't we/shouldn't we have both ? Isn't that the point - i.e. to be inclusive ?
I agree with STC's view, but that's an insightful reply, in its own logical-but-not-necessarily-great-that-it-is way.  There was a Star Trek episode where Kirk caused a robot who was taking over the ship to self-destruct by telling it something like that.  It also reminds me of my friend getting in an argument with his 12-year-old daughter.  "Why do you have to argue about everything I ask you to do?"  "Well, Dad, if you'd read Chapter 3 in your Brazelton book, you'd know that rebelling against my parents is a normal developmental stage for my age.  What would be a real problem would be if I WASN'T arguing".


And that reminds me of the teenager who got in an argument with his dad, and stomped out of the room yelling, "And one more thing.  Jim Morrison is waaay overrated!"  "How many times do I have to tell you?  Don't slam the Doors on your way out!"
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Area 10 on July 14, 2018, 03:55:47 AM
A lot of the older “early adopters” with a disposable income near me have moved from SUP to electric mountain-biking (eMTB). One of the things that SUP did when it came along was to allow older surfers who were finding the prone paddling position too painful to do because of ageing, to continue surfing. It removed or ameliorated the most physically taxing parts of traditional surfing. emtb is doing the same for off-road cycling. You can now easily go up hills that you could never go up before, and that means you can spend most of your time and effort doing the best bits (downhill). And, just as with SUP, it turns out the ebiking actually turns out to be better exercise for the ageing athlete.

Here’s a couple of the older SUPers I know who have now switched almost entirely to emtb. The guy who does the speaking at the end was the UK over-50s SUP race champion a couple of years back. Now he virtually never SUPs, only emtb. They are fitter than ever, despite being in their 70s now. The general feeling of excitement, freedom and discovery reminds me of the early days of SUP.

https://youtu.be/Jp812TWh8HM

Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: yugi on July 14, 2018, 05:41:27 AM
When we were kids an "E"-day out meant something completely different
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: ukgm on July 14, 2018, 06:04:46 AM
1) Ok, so first thing to do IMO is to throw out what you think you know about training. It’s all completely different in the ageing athlete.

2) First of all, performance is not about fitness as you age, it’s about health.

3) Cross-training in the older athlete isn’t really “cross-training” is about variety.

4) Why does varying activity help so much? It’s probably because as we age we start to restrict our activities. We “play” less, and we start to concentrate and narrow  our activities both during the day and in our exercise routines.

5) And so often range of motion and flexibility are the scaffolding of power in sports.

6) This likely happens at a neural level too. “All work and no play make Jack a dull boy”? It’s the same with physical activity - “all training and no fun activity make Jack’s body (and the neural circuits that support it) bored and tired”. Give your body and brain a lot of variety in its diet. It will reward you with better performance.

7) So, overtraining in the older athlete is often not about “overtraining” as you are thinking about it. It’s about health.
Interesting for sure. My first thoughts were:

1) Physically, I haven't seen a single a single study that would support that. It's about overload, recovery and supercompensation. That's pretty much empirical fact in a range of studies. I was told by a famed exercise physiologist once - "there are no miracles" [when it comes to racing]. However, there are other mitigating factors which you touch on and I wouldn't disagree.

2) I certainly agree with this. I don't believe its a coincidence I know of a lot of endurance athletes who have heart problems...... and that's before we get to mental wellbeing.

3) I would agree but the impact/needs of performance are different to those of someone who wants to keep fit. The question is how relevant raw performance is when we're 45+. To most, very little I guess.

4) I actually think your comment is relevant for any amateurs of any age - particularly children. Mental burnout is sadly all too common and its no coincidence when many pro athletes retire, they literally just sit around and get fat.

5) I agree. Cross training or the needs for strength and conditioning are essential as we age. Injury or breakage is always a concern.

6) You may well be right. That's closer to your field than mine.

7) Its certainly about sustainability in my view (being the bigger picture).
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: PonoBill on July 14, 2018, 06:25:32 AM
Looks like Salt Life and SUP Magazine didn't get the memo. The PPG schedule was just announced and the prize purse this year is $60K. Remarkable. It looks like they are increasing their efforts in every direction. Good for them. They seem to be focused on SUP as a fitness tool, which is a fine idea given the SoCal, "I wanna be young forever" venue.

I like eBikes a lot, it seems I enjoy just about everything that pisses other participants off. I swear it's not my intention. SUP came along just in time to rescue my surfing life, Foiling is just flat out fun, and eBikes enable a geezer with a bad knee to ride like he used to. When I was starting our advertising agency I did a 10 mile street ride every morning that included a long, steep hill climb from Northwest Portland over the top of the west hills--working 14 hour days didn't leave time for much else. I just finished the foil hauler fatbike and I'm going to convert a standard el Cheapo Mongoose MTB we have laying around the house next week. I've sworn off doing expensive ones. I have two Bafeng HD's left in my stash that I need to do something with, so that's next.

I find eBiking to be a great workout for my bad knee. I built my electric trike to do enjoyable rehab after my first knee surgery and it's turned out to be a good workout generally. The popular notion is that you just sit on the bike and push the throttle, but if you want range and speed you pedal just as much as you would on a standard bike. The difference is how far you go, how fast, and how much pressure you put on your legs. With a standard bike, you have to do whatever is required to climb the nastiest hill, with an eBike I can adjust the effort to suit my knee. My standard ride is thirty miles round trip of rolling hills, Hood River to The Dalles over the twin tunnels road and that takes less than two hours.

I think my late entry into performance sports has helped me a bit in my geezerhood. From 30 to 60 I was an office worker, albeit the kind that plays rollerblade hockey at lunch and rides a bike to work, but I was much fatter and less fit at 45 than I was at 65. At 71 I'm seeing a substantial decline, which I'm working to ward off by stepping up the effort and adding/changing sports. We'll see how that goes. I intend to make my life an adventure until the end.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: TallDude on July 14, 2018, 08:58:27 AM
Looks like Salt Life and SUP Magazine didn't get the memo. The PPG schedule was just announced and the prize purse this year is $60K. Remarkable.

or Stupid..... I hope it has some success.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: TallDude on July 14, 2018, 09:10:24 AM
I like eBikes a lot, it seems I enjoy just about everything that pisses other participants off.
My standard ride is thirty miles round trip of rolling hills, Hood River to The Dalles over the twin tunnels road and that takes less than two hours.

This is what my wife has gotten into. She's been an avid MTB'r for years. Rides with some crazy women who typically come back injured and dirty. Her friend has a couple of high end fat tire eMTB's. They used to ride 12 to 15 miles in the hills. Now they do 30 miles and come back with big smiles, and..... totally beat from the workout. They're trying to get me out there with them. The problem with me, which is always the case, I too tall and don't fit on those smaller bike frames. I sat on my friends Harley the other day, and my knees almost drag on the ground. They are like kids bikes too me. Looking at OC-1's.... same problem. I haven't fit into any I've tried. Not even close.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Bean on July 14, 2018, 10:19:56 AM
SUP, unlimited ceiling!

I love the concept of eBikes, ADA, great equalizer, bla, bla, bla.  But I’m afraid e-Bikes in the trails will lead to more lost trail access.  We share a big percentage of our trails with the equine set...
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Larry Allison on July 14, 2018, 11:24:34 AM
I agree with Talldude and Ponobill. Leveling out but more importantly the Sup industry has a SMARTER consumer buyer. Which I am thankful for because the manufacturing sector  seems to waste large amounts of money going nowhere but trying to sell their consumer that they are going somewhere, LOL!!!!! So tanking isn't the right term I would say the consumer isn't going to buy junk!!! Which is also happening in the surf market after now 15 years of going backwards. Thanks for the support from alot of you here which is humbling. Mahalo, Larry
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: PonoBill on July 14, 2018, 10:01:56 PM
The problem with me, which is always the case, I too tall and don't fit on those smaller bike frames. I sat on my friends Harley the other day, and my knees almost drag on the ground. They are like kids bikes too me. Looking at OC-1's.... same problem. I haven't fit into any I've tried. Not even close.

You need to build your own, dude. So easy. Find a mountain bike that fits you and put a Bafang HD mid-drive on it. Most of the prebuilt stuff is made for average height people--Menehunes. But MTBs have been around a long time and there are bikes for every body. You won't have any problem building a eMTB. Check out Lunacycles.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: SaMoSUP on July 15, 2018, 03:08:22 AM
Why not eSUP?

3-4 hour battery life. Perhaps if the price were a bit lower this could be more attractive; and if they made a cooler video...

https://vimeo.com/222490945
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: robon on July 15, 2018, 09:13:56 AM
I think the industry is actually at it's peak inland BC and possibly still surging somewhat.

I went for an upriver paddle yesterday into Nelson and saw about 30 other stand up paddlers by the time I got to Lake side beach, and more people were renting and bringing their own boards to the water as I arrived (thriving rental business right on the water). Definitely the most I've seen around here at one time other than for a paddling event. A couple of locations inland BC in the Okanagan and Vernon areas have somewhat of a race scene, but that's always been the smallest part of this sport participation wise inland or coastal.

As predicted by many, inflatables have been the biggest increase in participation inland that I have seen, followed by a continued upward trend of the all around surf style boards that are under 12 feet. I would say I have noticed more displacement touring boards this year compared to last, but the vast majority of boards on the water are inflatables and the all around surf shapes.

A Canadian company called Kahuna has seen a major uptick in the entire region over the last couple of years, with multiple shops and rental outfits stocking their composite and inflatable boards. Seems like a decent company. I have seen a few Cascadia boards around, which is another Canadian company. While there has been a definite increase of the big box/cheap inflatables, I see a lot Red Paddle and other inflatables from paddling specific companies, which is good.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Zooport on July 15, 2018, 10:55:35 AM
SUP, unlimited ceiling!

I love the concept of eBikes, ADA, great equalizer, bla, bla, bla.  But I’m afraid e-Bikes in the trails will lead to more lost trail access.  We share a big percentage of our trails with the equine set...

+1  I've ridden my street e-bike to work for over 2 years now, but I would never ride one on MTB trails.  The idea of an e-mountainbike seems good at first, but they open MTB/hiking trails to people who lack the fitness and skill to maintain the trails or to ride them safely.  IMO, pay your dues and pedal your bike.  Fortunately, I'm hearing that many trails are already banning eMTB.





.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Zooport on July 15, 2018, 10:57:25 AM
I like eBikes a lot, it seems I enjoy just about everything that pisses other participants off.
My standard ride is thirty miles round trip of rolling hills, Hood River to The Dalles over the twin tunnels road and that takes less than two hours.

This is what my wife has gotten into. She's been an avid MTB'r for years. Rides with some crazy women who typically come back injured and dirty. Her friend has a couple of high end fat tire eMTB's. They used to ride 12 to 15 miles in the hills. Now they do 30 miles and come back with big smiles, and..... totally beat from the workout. They're trying to get me out there with them. The problem with me, which is always the case, I too tall and don't fit on those smaller bike frames. I sat on my friends Harley the other day, and my knees almost drag on the ground. They are like kids bikes too me. Looking at OC-1's.... same problem. I haven't fit into any I've tried. Not even close.

So how tall are you, TallDude?  None of my business, but I can't help from asking. 
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: TallDude on July 15, 2018, 11:31:03 AM
I like eBikes a lot, it seems I enjoy just about everything that pisses other participants off.
My standard ride is thirty miles round trip of rolling hills, Hood River to The Dalles over the twin tunnels road and that takes less than two hours.

This is what my wife has gotten into. She's been an avid MTB'r for years. Rides with some crazy women who typically come back injured and dirty. Her friend has a couple of high end fat tire eMTB's. They used to ride 12 to 15 miles in the hills. Now they do 30 miles and come back with big smiles, and..... totally beat from the workout. They're trying to get me out there with them. The problem with me, which is always the case, I too tall and don't fit on those smaller bike frames. I sat on my friends Harley the other day, and my knees almost drag on the ground. They are like kids bikes too me. Looking at OC-1's.... same problem. I haven't fit into any I've tried. Not even close.

So how tall are you, TallDude?  None of my business, but I can't help from asking.
The guy to my left is 5'11. I'm 6' 6 3/4" in the morning ::)
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: pdxmike on July 15, 2018, 12:36:20 PM

I like eBikes a lot, it seems I enjoy just about everything that pisses other participants off.
They're certainly stirring things up among people who bike in Portland:
 
"We need to get people out of cars, and into less polluting forms of transportation."
(People start riding ebikes.)
"That's not what I meant."


Nobody knows what to do with them.  Similar to standup in many ways.  Are they bikes (surfboards)?  Are they motor vehicles (vessels)?  Can they ride in bike lanes (surf breaks)?


And now in Oregon, there's a new tax on each sale of new bikes (ironically progressive Oregon is either the only, or one of only two--I can't remember which--states that have a special tax on bicycles).  But ebikes are exempt (if you buy one from  a car dealer, but not a bike dealer, as I recall).  One more thing to make ebike haters hate them more.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: mrbig on July 15, 2018, 04:40:11 PM
I participated in a brutal race yesterday.

A little recovery paddle in a local pond.

Ran into a guy who was paddling for the first time. His daughter has one and he took the plunge. On giant Costco no less. He was stoked never fell and was having way more FUN than I did yesterday on my 14' 404 Go-Go at the Eco Challenge in Narragansett.

Just a random data point that ain't statistically significant. But, in the world of syncronicity it's people like this cat who will keep the ball moving.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: eastbound on July 16, 2018, 03:20:11 AM
i commute 50 mins from brooklyn into midtown manhattan ea day ea way to/fro work.

nyc is beginning to get it right with bike lanes and enforcement

the ebikes go faster that all but the fastest commuter bikes and they are noiseless--many operate these bikes in a way that endangers others

ive had "words" with several ebike riders who seem to enjoy threading the needle thru non-motorized cyclist/commuters

as of now, they are illegal in nyc, but enforcement is nil

if they're going to go faster than all the commuter cyclists, they shd be off the bike lanes, out in the street with cars and motorcycles, or banned entirely---they shd not be allowed to mix with commuter cyclists without serious regulation/enforcement---yep regulation---so they dont endanger others---just like we regulate cars
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Area 10 on July 16, 2018, 10:25:20 AM
In the UK, ebikes are limited in speed. They will not provide any power from the motor above 25kph (about 15mph). This, combined with the fact that ebikes are very heavy, means that they do not irritate analogue cyclists on the roads. Their advantage only really shows in very hilly areas where road cyclists are not common anyway, or on off-road trails.

Cyclists moaning about ebikes reminds me so much of surfers’ complaints about  SUP when SUP started. They complained that SUP was allowing my people to get into the line-up who hadn’t “paid their dues” just like analogue cyclists are saying about ebikers now.

What ebikes are doing is democratising cycling, and allowing people to enjoy the sport to a much older age than before. Of course there will always be some people who will object to this sort of thing. Just as many surfers would not be seen dead on a SUP. I don’t worry about them - I’m too busy having fun :)
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: pdxmike on July 16, 2018, 11:30:42 AM
Cyclists moaning about ebikes reminds me so much of surfers’ complaints about  SUP when SUP started. They complained that SUP was allowing my people to get into the line-up who hadn’t “paid their dues” just like analogue cyclists are saying about ebikers now.

Exactly.  The things you hear around here:


--"ebikes allow people to instantly ride fast who haven't spent years building up the riding skills that are needed to go fast safely"


--"Besides lack of skills, people on ebikes are more dangerous because they don't look like they should be going that fast, so they surprise drivers, whereas cyclists who can go that fast are wearing cycling gear and on bikes that clearly signal to others that they are capable of going fast"



Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Zooport on July 16, 2018, 12:21:26 PM
i commute 50 mins from brooklyn into midtown manhattan ea day ea way to/fro work.

nyc is beginning to get it right with bike lanes and enforcement

the ebikes go faster that all but the fastest commuter bikes and they are noiseless--many operate these bikes in a way that endangers others

ive had "words" with several ebike riders who seem to enjoy threading the needle thru non-motorized cyclist/commuters

as of now, they are illegal in nyc, but enforcement is nil

if they're going to go faster than all the commuter cyclists, they shd be off the bike lanes, out in the street with cars and motorcycles, or banned entirely---they shd not be allowed to mix with commuter cyclists without serious regulation/enforcement---yep regulation---so they dont endanger others---just like we regulate cars

The problem with e-bikes are they are too slow to be in regular car traffic and too fast to be on bike lanes.   We have that issue in Newport too.  Walkers and bikers doing their normal thing, and then idiots on e-bikes smugly whizzing by others at unsafe speeds. 
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Bean on July 16, 2018, 12:27:51 PM
Don't even get me started on walkers...
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Zooport on July 16, 2018, 12:38:33 PM
Don't even get me started on walkers...

We have walkers in the bike lanes that walk 4 abreast and completely block the lane.  Usually female (sorry ladies).
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: PonoBill on July 16, 2018, 12:57:17 PM

I like eBikes a lot, it seems I enjoy just about everything that pisses other participants off.
They're certainly stirring things up among people who bike in Portland:
 
"We need to get people out of cars, and into less polluting forms of transportation."
(People start riding ebikes.)
"That's not what I meant."


Nobody knows what to do with them.  Similar to standup in many ways.  Are they bikes (surfboards)?  Are they motor vehicles (vessels)?  Can they ride in bike lanes (surf breaks)?


And now in Oregon, there's a new tax on each sale of new bikes (ironically progressive Oregon is either the only, or one of only two--I can't remember which--states that have a special tax on bicycles).  But ebikes are exempt (if you buy one from  a car dealer, but not a bike dealer, as I recall).  One more thing to make ebike haters hate them more.

The only thing that would make Portland bikers happy would be if everyone else died and left the streets completely to them, though where they would get their skinny caramel macchiatos is a mystery.  They make cranky longboard surfers with ponytails seem absolutely welcoming.

And yes, that's the answer, more regulation. No one ever wants regulation of anything they are doing, just those things that other people do that they find irritating. It's fine to have people driving two-ton gas guzzlers that kill 30,000 people a year but substitute an eBike that weighs 50 pounds and there's a big problem.

The battles between the horsey folks, hikers, Sierra Club and mountain bikers were fought by the geezers who are riding eMTBs now. The newcomers (anyone under 40) of the community will try to ban them, just as MTBs were once banned, until their knees or hips give out, and then they will be all for them. People are lunatics.

Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: pdxmike on July 16, 2018, 01:05:47 PM
This was written long before ebikes, but it gives some insight about the different types of people who ride bikes.  There are several factions:


https://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02/10/61-bicycles/


The whole website has good info on over 100 topics.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Bean on July 16, 2018, 01:06:07 PM
We should look to other countries for meaningful solutions to our traffic woes...
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: surf4food on July 16, 2018, 01:54:53 PM
Recreational stand up paddling is alive and well in Hood River. But like everywhere else, racing not so much, though we have two events coming up that draw a lot of participants--both have downwinding elements. I've tried surfski and OC1, own an OC1, rarely use it. Besides just the persistent belly fat issue (I don't fold well) I prefer standup for downwinding--I like to see where I'm going.

It was nearly 100 degrees yesterday, so last night the river was full of people, probably fifty on standup, a few boaters, lots of folks just hanging out on the sandbar or in the water. I brought boards but wound up just swimming with my daughter, who smoked me. I forgot she used to be a competitive swimmer. Diane, Elvis (my daughter Elizabeth) and I walked down the sandbar and enjoyed the water and the activity. A local jazz quartet was playing on the dock near the sand bar cafe, and we could hear them while we walked down the sandbar. It was a perfect accompaniment and they were very good. Great night, spectacular town, great people.

Down at the new outdoor amphitheater, there was a rock group playing and food trucks and local breweries set up in advance of the weekend I guess. This weekend is Kite4Cancer, an oddly named (at least to my ears, I'm kind of against cancer) but successful fundraiser, and they were setting up a massive array of tents and towers at the Event Center. We may not have much wind if the heat to the west of us persists, but no one really cares. It's a party.

Stand Up boards are ideal for this kind of lazy summer recreation, much better than boats of any flavor. That's where the market is. Jarvis is ahead of his time.

We might have just missed each other.  I was in HR Thursday with my wife for a day trip from Portland.  Wine tasted at Naked and had lunch at pFriem.  Saw that very same band.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: SaMoSUP on July 16, 2018, 02:10:58 PM
The Bird/Lime e-scooter invasion in Santa Monica is the big controversy these days. People riding recklessly on sidewalks/bike paths, hit and runs, not wearing helmets, unlicensed riders, dumping of scooters in the middle of the sidewalks, etc. It's the wild wild west over here.

The e-scooters are a great solution to the traffic and overdevelopment problems in our city. Unfortunately, many irresponsible and ignorant riders may impede that progress.

But back on topic, I finally sold one of my raceboards this weekend after being on the market for a year. The buyer wants to try SUP racing. Fresh meat. Maybe a new wave of racers will come along from all the expensive raceboards being sold on the cheap.


Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Tom on July 16, 2018, 02:49:21 PM
Instead of banning ebikes, maybe we should  look at the 21+ speed, 11 lb road bikes that are ridden by someone under 30. They are the  guys that are cheating.  I'm glad they wear those tight shorts to slow them down
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: TallDude on July 16, 2018, 02:50:56 PM
Don't even get me started on walkers...

We have walkers in the bike lanes that walk 4 abreast and completely block the lane.  Usually female (sorry ladies).
The problem with walkers, is they start at a very early age and think they can put one foot in front of the other better than anyone else. Some even practice while they are at work with out their employers really noticing.
BTW Zoo. I think technically that would be 8 a breast....
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: surf4food on July 16, 2018, 03:03:49 PM
The Bird/Lime e-scooter invasion in Santa Monica is the big controversy these days. People riding recklessly on sidewalks/bike paths, hit and runs, not wearing helmets, unlicensed riders, dumping of scooters in the middle of the sidewalks, etc. It's the wild wild west over here.


Having the same issues in San Diego.   
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: surf4food on July 16, 2018, 03:07:19 PM
But no I don't think it's necessarily tanking but just going through the adjustment period that all new sports go through after several years of "explosion".  The next few years we'll see.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: connector14 on July 16, 2018, 03:10:18 PM
Yea,  I see the same nice name brand race boards on Craigslist for many weeks.....they don't seem to be moving.
Today my wife and I paddled for 6 miles on Hood Canal on a beautiful windless morning.....didn't see a single other paddleboarder. We had  the entire Canal to ourselves....didn't even see any water skiers until we just about got back home. Kinda nice having your own "ocean".
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Zooport on July 16, 2018, 05:08:24 PM
Don't even get me started on walkers...

We have walkers in the bike lanes that walk 4 abreast and completely block the lane.  Usually female (sorry ladies).

BTW Zoo. I think technically that would be 8 a breast....

LOL  Talk about non PCness. 
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: pdxmike on July 16, 2018, 05:27:47 PM
Don't even get me started on walkers...

We have walkers in the bike lanes that walk 4 abreast and completely block the lane.  Usually female (sorry ladies).

BTW Zoo. I think technically that would be 8 a breast....

LOL  Talk about non PCness.
TallDude is right about the 8.  "Walk 4 abreast" is a fundraising event for cancer awareness.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Zooport on July 16, 2018, 05:51:25 PM
Don't even get me started on walkers...

We have walkers in the bike lanes that walk 4 abreast and completely block the lane.  Usually female (sorry ladies).

BTW Zoo. I think technically that would be 8 a breast....

LOL  Talk about non PCness.
TallDude is right about the 8.  "Walk 4 abreast" is a fundraising event for cancer awareness.
Oh my gosh.  I feel like such a boob. 
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: hbsteve on July 16, 2018, 06:07:08 PM
By walkers, I thought you meant those people that cross the bike path without looking.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Zooport on July 16, 2018, 07:49:35 PM
By walkers, I thought you meant those people that cross the bike path without looking.

Well there are those people, but I'm talking about groups of people walking along the bike path all side by side. 
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: TallDude on July 16, 2018, 09:02:39 PM
Talk about SUP marketing. These were the only people racing in the 9'-6 class.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Bean on July 17, 2018, 06:01:23 AM
This could be my chance to get back on the podium!
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on July 17, 2018, 06:52:27 AM
I'd like to see more innovation on the low end of SUPs. There are a lot of interesting ideas with SUPs on the high end — foils, light materials, sleek hulls, etc — but the low end has felt more stagnant. I'd like to see more ideas for sub-$1000 boards. They all seem like variations on a theme.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: supthecreek on July 17, 2018, 12:28:38 PM
Talk about SUP marketing. These were the only people racing in the 9'-6 class.


Seems if you want to bring kids into this sport, then small raceboards are a good way to reach them.
Those are a steal.... I know a guy who would snatch them up for his kids if he was 3,000 miles closer!
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: TallDude on July 17, 2018, 03:24:23 PM
Talk about SUP marketing. These were the only people racing in the 9'-6 class.


Seems if you want to bring kids into this sport, then small raceboards are a good way to reach them.
Those are a steal.... I know a guy who would snatch them up for his kids if he was 3,000 miles closer!
The kids around here are serious and know what they want in a race board. We have usually have a handful of 12'-6 x 21" race boards for sale on CL that were grom team riders boards. They grow out of them like shoes. 
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: kayadogg on July 17, 2018, 06:03:35 PM
Oh how I miss the used board market in SoCal  :'(
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Wetstuff on July 18, 2018, 07:55:32 AM
'Foamies'...   I came back from a week in NC and was frankly amazed at the number of young proners on foam  ..and they were having fun!   I went into one local surf shop; he had a load of locally shaped, Dolsey and Firewire.  He was talking to a customer' "They range from $600-900."   ...the stuff on the low-end looked pretty generic and Chinese.  (There used to be a shaper down that direction, Will Allison, that did a great longboard.)

My neighbor down the creek recently bought two SUP sponges (I didn't pay attention to the brand - blue boxes) but they didn't look bad - certainly not for what they're going to do with them.

I have trimmed my quiver to three, condition and place specific boards and the last sale had me a little anxious because of the silence at 1/2 price for a very well rated, little-used board.  A couple of years ago, people were asking to meet half-way from places like NY. 

SUP was a large, tasty apple a few years ago, it's now looking like 'down to the core'.

Jim
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: SUP Leave on July 18, 2018, 08:40:52 AM
I owe SUP a lot. It rekindled my love of surfing and brought me to this website. I find most of y'all's posts pretty interesting.

Since I am out on the coast as opposed to Puget Sound - I see only SUSers and would say that the interest is the same as it has been for 8 years. About 10% of the lineup is SUP on any day.

Personally, I hardly SUP anymore. I just enjoy the "drop" on a surfboard way more, even though I am probably better at SUP that surfing. I would guess a wave count at 3x higher on a SUP.  When I search craigslist it is never for another SUP, but for another surfboard. There are days when I know the SUP will be the best tool for the job (current, wind whatever) and I enjoy it immensely, but if I am looking at a waist high peeler with an easy go-out, I choose a glide-y long board every time.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: PT Woody on July 19, 2018, 03:49:51 AM
Yes SUP is probably tanking, yet we still see people and organisations and brands run with the old "fastest growing water sport" nonsense. It's a good way to spot a bullshitter.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: JEG on July 19, 2018, 03:24:44 PM
that bullshitter word, Ooh man  :-X
In my area, SUP is steadily growing   ::)
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: PT Woody on July 19, 2018, 04:23:24 PM
Yes perhaps I should have said charlatan, con man, or snake oil salesman. Anyone still trying to spin the line that stand up paddle boarding is the world's fastest growing water sport is definitely one of those.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: surf4food on July 19, 2018, 05:18:14 PM
I still think it's a bit of a stretch to say it's "tanking".  It's going through the solidification period we all knew it would at some point.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: connector14 on July 19, 2018, 09:47:23 PM
Different strokes for different folks. I got into SUP in 2014. It has changed my life. I lost 30 lbs and cut my cholesterol numbers in half. I have sold all of my boats and power equipment and I'm now fully retired. I look forward to standup paddling everyday if possible. My wife also paddles with me whenever conditions beckon.
She is not as hardcore as I am,  but she does enjoy sharing the stoke when it's sunny and flat. (she really has a better looking stroke than I do and I wish she would "embrace the conditions" as much as I try) but hey,  I should be happy she enjoys getting out there with me as much as I enjoy having company on my sessions.
When I first witnessed standup paddling I thought it was the stupidest thing I had ever seen. Now I can't imagine life without it.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: stoneaxe on July 20, 2018, 07:55:26 AM
Other than how it effects folks in the industry that I like I could care less if SUP is "tanking". It's not going to disappear. We'll still have plenty of boards to choose from. The effect on board design.....not sure how much innovation is left to be found in SUP. Some for sure but design is pretty mature regardless of discipline.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: Zooport on July 20, 2018, 10:30:21 AM
I personally don't think the SUP industry is "tanking"  I think the initial boom is over and it will now grow at moderate pace. 

I expect some manufacturers have overproduced expecting the boom to go on forever and supply is very high, so prices have to fall.  It will all normalize in the next year or two. 
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: kayadogg on July 20, 2018, 10:46:39 AM
“Tanking” is a ridiculous description. Leveling off, plateauing... sure. 2 out of the 3 biggest races in RI have recently been cancelled. The only one that is going strong was last weekend and had almost 100 paddlers, lots on all-arounders. There’s a swim, kayak and lifeguard prone board race too, so it’s supported by more than the stand up community. Racing and surfing make up less than 10% of the industry so people see these areas flattening our, possibly declining (racing) and assume it’s tanking. I notice more all around boards in people’s yards, on cars and in the water than I ever have. It’s become something much more commonplace but our little niche pockets are trimming the fat.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: stoneaxe on July 30, 2018, 10:01:21 AM
I agree with Kaya...I think we could reasonably say that SUP racing is tanking. At a guess more than half the folks I know (including myself) that were into racing SUPs have stopped. They still enjoy SUP...just not the racing part. I still see more boards on vehicles every year than I did the year before. I think if events want to stay around they'll have to offer more than just races.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: ukgm on July 30, 2018, 10:47:29 AM
I agree with Kaya...I think we could reasonably say that SUP racing is tanking. At a guess more than half the folks I know (including myself) that were into racing SUPs have stopped. They still enjoy SUP...just not the racing part. I still see more boards on vehicles every year than I did the year before. I think if events want to stay around they'll have to offer more than just races.

Yep, for the 1% that are looking to win, the other 99% will want an event experience that is both challenging yet attainable. Its that aspect that I feel the sport lacks in the majority of the events it currently has...... but that's if if you want mass participation (surf skiing for example aren't fussed).
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: stoneaxe on July 30, 2018, 11:43:47 AM
The CCBC has never been a race...it's an anti-race if anything but we've seen the effects of the drop too. We expected a big drop in participation after the 10th anniversary and we got it. Smallest group since 2009.

Your comment about the 99% is spot on. I was originally skeptical of our new route, distance, and venue but I think now that it opens a new door to us. It's still enough of a challenge to bear the name but it's far more accessible at 22 miles than 34 and allowing teams makes it even more so. It's a perfect spot for us to make the event more/different than it was. I'm looking forward to bringing some more fun to it. Pretty sure we'll be looking to make the landing/party location at Duxbury Beach an all day affair with lots for family, friends, and the community to do.
Title: Re: Is the SUP industry tanking?
Post by: JimK on July 31, 2018, 06:39:00 AM
Here in NJ/PA SUP in NOT tanking (I'm not a charlertan or snake oil salesman) Not booming But settled into steady sustainable growth

JimK
Extreme Windsurfing
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