Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: kiwi on June 24, 2018, 01:56:12 AM
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Hi all
Background story: I'm 16 years old and live in NZ, I've always been around and on the water and around 6 months ago I got hooked on foiling. The first time I tried it I was being towed around on a friend's foil behind their dinghy and I've been hooked ever since. I've since been on it every now and then but because I don't have one its hard to put the hours in to get good. Long story short I decided to build one.
I started work a few months ago with building the mast, it is made of 4mm balanced E glass plate laminated together to make up 12mm. I then put it on my cnc and cut out the Naca 0010 shape into it.
I'll post photos once I figure out how on earth to do so
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Ok here we go
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Nicely done Kiwi!
Will you be making the rest from the same material?
Mine is languishing in the corner of the living room, wood and foam in an unglassed state.
I occasionally get scrap FR4 from work but always have trouble running it through my small CNC router. Are there any tips for settings (depth per pass, travel speed, stepover, RPM, cutter size) that you'd be willing to share please?
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Thanks Jrandy
The cutter I used is the key to using the cnc for glass plate.
https://www.amanatool.com/46099-end-mill-point-diamond-pattern-composite-cutting-1-4-dia-x-3-4-x-1-4-inch-shank.html (https://www.amanatool.com/46099-end-mill-point-diamond-pattern-composite-cutting-1-4-dia-x-3-4-x-1-4-inch-shank.html)
I run it at 1000mm/m at 1mm depth of cut and just set my spindle so it doesn't sound like it's struggling. This cutter is way more capable than this though, have at look at this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucv3nDgmf3o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucv3nDgmf3o)
The plan for the rest of the foil is to use the same 4mm plate for the fuselage and then to use plywood with a layer of fiberglass for the foils themselves.
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Glad to see another build on here man. Great work on the mast so far. Looks solid.
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Nice work mate! Very happy to see people making their own toys. Once you cover that mast in 4-6 layers of 3K carbon (preferably vacuum bagged) layed out 2-3 at 90 degrees and 2-3 at 45 degrees. It should be rigid enough for foiling. Go to the Diy sup foil pages for some great ideas on foil construction. If you have not decided upon a wing profile, a NACA 4415,4416 or 4417 would be a good place to start. Of course, your body weight will have a lot to do with the profile you choose. maybe even a 4414 if you are small. A planshape surface area of maybe 1000- 1300 sq. cm. Stick with proven planshape, low aspect ratio wing shape. Again, your body weight is what is dictating wing size. Be Very Careful! I can not stress this enough. Making your own foils can become an absolute addiction. I once forgot my wife's name and the fact that we have kids.
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Thanks Jrandy
The cutter I used is the key to using the cnc for glass plate.
https://www.amanatool.com/46099-end-mill-point-diamond-pattern-composite-cutting-1-4-dia-x-3-4-x-1-4-inch-shank.html (https://www.amanatool.com/46099-end-mill-point-diamond-pattern-composite-cutting-1-4-dia-x-3-4-x-1-4-inch-shank.html)
I run it at 1000mm/m at 1mm depth of cut and just set my spindle so it doesn't sound like it's struggling. This cutter is way more capable than this though, have at look at this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucv3nDgmf3o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucv3nDgmf3o)
Thanks for the info Kiwi. We have similar cutters at work. I wish I had the spindle that has the 'snort' to take a 1/4" tool up to maximum cutting capacity...
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Does anyone have the exact measurements for the gofoil tuttle head?
Im looking into building an adapter similar to sharksupper's build.
Thanks in advance
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Here some more photos.
Fuz construction is similar to the mast, plan is to epoxy the mast and the three sections of the fuz together with some fasteners through the middle to make one solid structure.
Next up is the stabilizer and the main wing :)
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This is looking so clean. Coming along nicely. What's the total width of the fuselage?
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This is looking so clean. Coming along nicely. What's the total width of the fuselage?
Thanks man, total width is 28mm dropping off to 20mm for the stab.
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Wow, that's some gorgeous fab work Kiwi. Very interested to see where this ends up.
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I cut the stab on the cnc the other day, a proof of concept for the main foil really. I needed a way to flip it on the machine and keep it from flexing under cutter load so I left a number of uncut support material tabs along the foil. Turned out to be plenty strong enough for the cutter load and it didn't take long to chisel them off and sand them smooth. Ideally I would have a female setup to fully support the material but since these are one off's this will be alright. Machining up the front wing in the next few days and show you all how its sorta going to look like once its finished.
Need to glass these wings because the trailing edge is way too flimsy. I have no doubt that they would be strong enough but it's just the trailing edge than needs some strengthening. 18mm plywood is a lot stiffer than I expected.
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Wow, that's some gorgeous fab work Kiwi. Very interested to see where this ends up.
Cheers :)
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That is looking great Kiwi.
I like how even the pattern between wood and glue came out in the plywood.
For one-side flat surfboard fins I usually try to design with a minimum trailing edge thickness of .03"[0.8mm] and/or laminate cloth and resin to the flat side before machining. These two thing help keep the splintering to a minimum. I also just use small tabs to keep the part attached to the stock, like .250"[6.5mm] or so wide and .125" [3.2mm] thick.
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These are great man. I'd definitely still glass the wings. Stresses are higher than you realize in certain areas. Don't ask me how I know. lol
But the cuts are so clean. Great to see those perfect lines laid out in the laminated layers.
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That is looking great Kiwi.
I like how even the pattern between wood and glue came out in the plywood.
For one-side flat surfboard fins I usually try to design with a minimum trailing edge thickness of .03"[0.8mm] and/or laminate cloth and resin to the flat side before machining. These two thing help keep the splintering to a minimum. I also just use small tabs to keep the part attached to the stock, like .250"[6.5mm] or so wide and .125" [3.2mm] thick.
Thanks jrandy
Yeah I think I'll include a trailing edge thickness next time because the splintering is pretty annoying.
These are great man. I'd definitely still glass the wings. Stresses are higher than you realize in certain areas. Don't ask me how I know. lol
But the cuts are so clean. Great to see those perfect lines laid out in the laminated layers.
Cheers surfcowboy
Yea I'm definitely still glassing the wings, the strength through the mid section is great but the last 50mm of the tips gets pretty flimsy. Will just glass the entire thing for the guaranteed extra strength.
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I might need some help with beefing up a trailing edge. SUPUK sort of rushed though that part at the end of his wing making Fusion360 video and I'm not 100% clear how to edit the plane he's talking about without messing up.
You guys are making me have to talk myself out of building a CNC. Lol
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Last week I cnc'ed the main foil with the same technique and set a 4mm plate into it for the countersink m5s.
Dad showed me how to glass the wings so they've now got a layer of 300gm biax and been bogged up. Gotta sand them all down now.
I've got access to the cnc at work (just a holiday job at a mostly polystyrene cnc place, theyve got a 5 axis tho ;D ) and there is a whole lot of pvc foam laying round so I'm going to dig through it and find some 60kg stuff to do the plate mount cassette for the board.
Still gotta glue the 3 parts of the fuz together and get everything mounted together.
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Man, so I clean and so fast.
This thing looks awesome.
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Fuz all glued up, fits nicely with mast. Made quite a bit of progress this weekend so ill post some more up later.
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Coming along. I got out in the garage and did a little myself tonight.
Keep it up man.
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Thanks surfcowboy for all the support :)
I bought one of those foilmount tuttle to plate adapter and some 10" longboard rails, yes I know they're no the glass filled plastic that chinook sells but theyll work for now this is just an experiment. I epoxied the rails into the box I made at work and then cut the hole in the board for it, the board is a little 5'3" we use for scurfing. It's pretty small and will be hopeless in the surf but I'm planning on building a board for prone foiling anyways.
I attached the wings to the fuz after I finished sanding them smooth. I used M5 helicoils to with stainless bolts to mount them and I hope this will be enough to hold them on :-\
Need to pot the tuttle head with the new tuttle adapter, does anyone know the best mold release between epoxy and aluminium, also the adapter has machining ridges on the radiuses and isn't perfectly smooth so im not sure how molding the tuttle head will go.
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Need to pot the tuttle head with the new tuttle adapter, does anyone know the best mold release between epoxy and aluminium, also the adapter has machining ridges on the radiuses and isn't perfectly smooth so im not sure how molding the tuttle head will go.
I use carnauba wax. Mostly because it's easy to get and it works. 100% carnauba is best. Used to be Eagle One had 100 percent in cans. the company was founded by my late best friend so I have a lot of the stuff around. I wax the mold or plug, let it haze, polish, then repeat three times.
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I've been using "Meguiars Mold Release #8" a lot with great results. I can't say I've used it on aluminum specifically though, but I don't think it would matter too much. However, I think that looks like the FoilMount CNC adapter that you're going to use as a mould, just like the one I bought from them too (but didn't use as a mould). Feel carefully on the front and rear surfaces on the inside of the tuttle mount and you'll feel some machining steps in there. Those may make it harder to release than a completely smooth surface like I've been working with. You might want to extra wax up those micro steps so your epoxy doesn't get a hold in them.
I attached a pic of the steps...
(crap, I just noticed you were already aware of the steps, sigh...)
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Need to pot the tuttle head with the new tuttle adapter, does anyone know the best mold release between epoxy and aluminium, also the adapter has machining ridges on the radiuses and isn't perfectly smooth so im not sure how molding the tuttle head will go.
I use carnauba wax. Mostly because it's easy to get and it works. 100% carnauba is best. Used to be Eagle One had 100 percent in cans. the company was founded by my late best friend so I have a lot of the stuff around. I wax the mold or plug, let it haze, polish, then repeat three times.
Thanks pono
I've been using "Meguiars Mold Release #8" a lot with great results. I can't say I've used it on aluminum specifically though, but I don't think it would matter too much. However, I think that looks like the FoilMount CNC adapter that you're going to use as a mould, just like the one I bought from them too (but didn't use as a mould). Feel carefully on the front and rear surfaces on the inside of the tuttle mount and you'll feel some machining steps in there. Those may make it harder to release than a completely smooth surface like I've been working with. You might want to extra wax up those micro steps so your epoxy doesn't get a hold in them.
I attached a pic of the steps...
(crap, I just noticed you were already aware of the steps, sigh...)
haha thanks sharksupper
yeah i've gotta somehow smooth those steps to stop the epoxy grabbing, I think If I hit the thing hard enough it would pop off anyway but not gonna risk it
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You could try a coat of hard beeswax to fill the steps, and then carnauba over it. Beeswax is sticky because it's fairly soft, carnauba is hard and relatively high temp so it polishes to a flat surface instead of rippling.
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I like to use Partall/Coverall purple PVA two or three coats on raw wooden molds and then a couple coats of Partall/Coverall #2 green paste wax. I destroyed a couple plywood molds trying 'home remedy' stuff like vegetable shortening and cheap car wax.
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If you're going to eventually want to make more Tuttle heads you might want to rethink your mold idea. A two-piece mold would work better and would let you add detail, like the transition from head to mast. I also wonder why you want a Tuttle at all since you've set up your board for a plate. Why not just add a plate to your mast to start with?
If you're just going to make the basic Tuttle shape of your mast conform to the converter, then maybe don't use any mold release at all. With those machining steps and a single piece mold, there's a good chance it won't come out anyway. Maybe just shim it straight, fill it with bogged epoxy and done.
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If you're going to eventually want to make more Tuttle heads you might want to rethink your mold idea. A two-piece mold would work better and would let you add detail, like the transition from head to mast. I also wonder why you want a Tuttle at all since you've set up your board for a plate. Why not just add a plate to your mast to start with?
If you're just going to make the basic Tuttle shape of your mast conform to the converter, then maybe don't use any mold release at all. With those machining steps and a single piece mold, there's a good chance it won't come out anyway. Maybe just shim it straight, fill it with bogged epoxy and done.
The reason I want to have the tuttle head and not just plate is because my friend has a board with a tuttle and we want to try my foil in that.
I think I might machine up a split mold so I can add the transition between tuttle and mast and make the tuttle marginally oversized so I can sand it down.
Thanks Pono
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kiwi, I'm interested to know if you making your own foil is saving you money over just buying a premade one. Doing it to save money, or just doing it for fun?
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Zoo, at my hourly rate my foil is probably twice the price of a GoFoil lol.
Not sure about the other guys, but for me it's been a love of building things and learning new skills. If I make something that flies, I'll be super proud as well.
But I'd like to hear the other guys take on this.
I will point out that the price of the CNC machine probably takes the cost up a bit here. But it's a whole different game if you have the tools already and the basic skills. For instance I'll bet Kiwi and JRandy get something to fly with not that many hours having the gear to design and cut full scale. They are a step above my backyard kit.
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kiwi, I'm interested to know if you making your own foil is saving you money over just buying a premade one. Doing it to save money, or just doing it for fun?
Yeah it is saving me a bit of money, didn't have 2k to just splash out and buy one so I thought I may as well have a crack at building one, also doing it for the skills and learning too because I don't have much composites building knowledge as I'm still in highschool lol.
I must say I'm a bit lucky to have the resources that I do, Dad is a boat builder and having the stuff laying round at home helps a lot. The cnc is the real time saver here, I can cut out a new wing in 6 hours instead of hand shaping it in a couple days and all I have to do is click start. It did cost me 1500 to build the cnc but it's worth it cus now I can save money and learn on so many other projects.
Kudos to surfcowboy for doing it all by hand, quite impressive to have stuck it out and done it all manually.
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Oh, know my next one will be machine assisted for sure lol. But thx yes, my original idea was to show that with minimal tools and tech that you could build something to fly. We will see.
I'd love some links on building a CNC. May have to start a thread on that here.
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super neat work kiwi! how much carbon are you putting on the fuselage? that little bit between the the back of the main wing and front of the mast needs to be pretty beefy, theres a hell of a lot of twisting load on it when you throw in some austin kalama carves. mine is about as low tech as it gets- 100% hand shaped by eye, wet laminated with no vacuum bagging and most of the time the wrong weight cloth cause im cheap and only use what i can get from off cut bins. a store bought one may perform slightly better but you cant beat the satisfaction of hand made man powered flight
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That's exactly where mine broke, right behind the wing. I second that idea lol.
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You know the saying; "Why pay them the amount of money they're askin' when you can easily do it yourself for only twice the cost."
Well, I'm going to tell you that some people can make these foils for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of production foils and if you have a mind like an engineer, you can make them far stronger than production foils. Overbuild, overbuild, overbuild, and you will not be disappointed. CNC machines, 3D printers, and even vacuum bagging is not required (though I find it extremely helpful). I really think the cheapest way is to buy the least expensive aluminum mast and fuselage and then make your own wings that will adapt to those parts. Just wondering. I weigh 160 lbs and can stand on the wing tips of my main wing while the board upside down laying on the beach . I only used 1 layer of 3K carbon twill on wings outer surface. I've only ever seen one production foil (Naish) and have been wondering if these foils could undergo the same test. Overbuilt? Yes! Would not have it any other way.
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super neat work kiwi! how much carbon are you putting on the fuselage? that little bit between the the back of the main wing and front of the mast needs to be pretty beefy, theres a hell of a lot of twisting load on it when you throw in some austin kalama carves. mine is about as low tech as it gets- 100% hand shaped by eye, wet laminated with no vacuum bagging and most of the time the wrong weight cloth cause im cheap and only use what i can get from off cut bins. a store bought one may perform slightly better but you cant beat the satisfaction of hand made man powered flight
thanks container
considering my front wing is only 700mm wide I think itll be fine for just a test, plan is to ride it in the boat wake and see if it actually works, planning on building a second one out of carbon with a larger wing for surfing after this one.
You know the saying; "Why pay them the amount of money they're askin' when you can easily do it yourself for only twice the cost."
Well, I'm going to tell you that some people can make these foils for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of production foils and if you have a mind like an engineer, you can make them far stronger than production foils. Overbuild, overbuild, overbuild, and you will not be disappointed. CNC machines, 3D printers, and even vacuum bagging is not required (though I find it extremely helpful). I really think the cheapest way is to buy the least expensive aluminum mast and fuselage and then make your own wings that will adapt to those parts. Just wondering. I weigh 160 lbs and can stand on the wing tips of my main wing while the board upside down laying on the beach . I only used 1 layer of 3K carbon twill on wings outer surface. I've only ever seen one production foil (Naish) and have been wondering if these foils could undergo the same test. Overbuilt? Yes! Would not have it any other way.
yeah the knowledge and experience is worth a bit surely, Theres no way ill be able to stand on the wing tips of mine, pretty weak really but if i get even a single flight out of it ill be happy, then when it breaks ill build version two and work on that.
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Got a little bit of work done this weekend but had school ball so that tied me up a lot, I added an epoxy fillet between the front wing and the fuz, thatll help a little with the twisting load, would've been better if i had laid some glass in there but if ill be able to see if it starts cracking under load and can grind it off and glass it up.
Decided to go with a chemical mold release instead of a wax. It was to hard to get in there and smooth out the wax or polish it. Coated it with three layers and let it dry. Poured the epoxy in there and gonna let it sit for 5 days to properly go hard then ill be able to heat up the foilmount do it grows a bit then hit it hard with a hammer, should pop right off fingers crossed ;D
Will post some photos at some point.
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As far as getting a good finish on a wing with or without using a mold, try this. After applying a fill coat of epoxy resin to the wing, and after it cures, obviously. Use a cabinet scraper, well sharpened or finely tuned, to scrape off the high spots and brush strokes streaks. do this until all fill coat is scraped and little or no unscraped areas remain. Then wet sand in the direction of flow with 300-400 grit wet/dry sand paper. Using a little dish soap in the water is helpful. Its ready to surf at this stage, but if you want a deeper, darker, shinier look, here is the next step. I call it the rub off. Take the smallest amount of resin and a dry rag. Rub a small amount of resin onto the wing with gloved fingers. Very small amount! Then rub it off with the dry rag. Do only small sections at a time. The finish will look great, and function well. The key to all this is the cabinet scraper. no dusty sanding. Just very fine epoxy shavings.
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Popped the mast out of the foilmount plate adapter, the steps didn't end up being a problem, heated up the adapter so it grew a bit then hit it real hard. Popped right off, problem is it doesn't go back in now :'(
Is the top edge of the tuttles usually radiused?
Also the photo of the front wing fillet, will beef it up later with a bit of glass but will be fine for now.
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As far as getting a good finish on a wing with or without using a mold, try this. After applying a fill coat of epoxy resin to the wing, and after it cures, obviously. Use a cabinet scraper, well sharpened or finely tuned, to scrape off the high spots and brush strokes streaks. do this until all fill coat is scraped and little or no unscraped areas remain. Then wet sand in the direction of flow with 300-400 grit wet/dry sand paper. Using a little dish soap in the water is helpful. Its ready to surf at this stage, but if you want a deeper, darker, shinier look, here is the next step. I call it the rub off. Take the smallest amount of resin and a dry rag. Rub a small amount of resin onto the wing with gloved fingers. Very small amount! Then rub it off with the dry rag. Do only small sections at a time. The finish will look great, and function well. The key to all this is the cabinet scraper. no dusty sanding. Just very fine epoxy shavings.
Thanks suppeter
is this something you usually use over the top of laminated carbon or glass?
Planning on using black durapox and wetsanding but thanks for the advice :)
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Sanded the tuttle down ever so slightly and it fits snug and also drilled the holes for the bolts and barrel nuts (mine are 9mm diameter, aren't they usually 12mm?)
Bogged the mast to head transition.
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Nice work. I'm surprised you got it out so easy. Those tapers are sticky. My friend Rod Parmenter got his GoFoil mast stuck in an aluminum Tuttle to plate adapter and tried to get it out by threading in some bolts and whacking them with a hammer. Bent the shit out of the bolt and I had an interesting time getting it out for him. Then I tried to press the mast out of the adapter with some steel pins--no joy. I had to make a special tool to get enough force on the Tuttle to get it to move. Yeah, I know, my TIG technique is a little sloppy. I'm working on it. Time to clean up the welding tables.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/38909580_10155906023288668_5273373168289972224_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=ebc855c35e4a8572e703ef805e57f8c7&oe=5BF91F84)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39062186_10155906023363668_6204132932550918144_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=3781565ac7980ab3287261c97b428caf&oe=5BC862EB)
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Nice work. I'm surprised you got it out so easy. Those tapers are sticky. My friend Rod Parmenter got his GoFoil mast stuck in an aluminum Tuttle to plate adapter and tried to get it out by threading in some bolts and whacking them with a hammer. Bent the shit out of the bolt and I had an interesting time getting it out for him. Then I tried to press the mast out of the adapter with some steel pins--no joy. I had to make a special tool to get enough force on the Tuttle to get it to move. Yeah, I know, my TIG technique is a little sloppy. I'm working on it. Time to clean up the welding tables.
Did you try heating the shit out of the aluminium adapter. The tuttle head won't expand but the alu should've grown just enough to loosen it up a bit. Seems like u figured it out in the end tho, nice work
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Got the cassette glued in the board. hopefully gonna test the foil and board this weekend
Still need to glue up the mast and fuselage but that's this afternoon's job
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Still looking good. I wish you well but you should make one part of this ugly so the rest of us will feel better. Haha.
Great work and smart to put that around the stringer. Probably way stronger.
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Still looking good. I wish you well but you should make one part of this ugly so the rest of us will feel better. Haha.
Great work and smart to put that around the stringer. Probably way stronger.
oh dont worry there is an ugly fibreglass board job to see yet haha
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speaking of the ugly board, here it is
Plus I got the fuz glued up with the mast, plenty of glass reinforcement to laid around that to come.
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So this weekend I got to test out the foil. Pretty stoked. On friday I took it across to the beach to see if it would float because of the low volume shortboard it's mounted to. Turns out it floats easy peasy. I pushed it around in the shallows and it was pretty satisfying to see it scooting around and not just sinking.
Took it out on the boat on friday (40 foot wooden launch) and had a go at towing it. fucken stoked ;D took a few goes to get the right rope length and to get used to it and shimming the stab helped heaps. Mast is pretty wobbly and bendy so there aint much control over left and right and it twists heaps but thats nothing we cant fix. Nothing broke and the board held up good.
Had another go on sunday and it was way easier with the previous day's practice, like everyone says here the learning curve is really quick. I could get out of the wake and out the side pretty easily. looking forward to having a go in the surf but im pretty sure ill need a board with a bit more volume.
Also started working on the bendy mast problem. Gonna run some carbon uni's down either side and also wrap them round the bottom. I got out the grinder and started radiusing the fuz so the carbon will form to it more easily. Also gonna look way better like this.
https://vimeo.com/286834649 (https://vimeo.com/286834649)
https://vimeo.com/286839382 (https://vimeo.com/286839382)
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This is fragging awesome.
A whole lot of work but good for you!!!!
Note that an Airfoil shape is 15X - 20X more streamlined than a cylinder or a rectangle flying.
Said another way if you keep the mast streamlined you can afford to beef it up significantly. This is why we don't feel all the drag on our wings. They are extremely efficient.
See this diagram of a WIRE (extended to infinity) vs. an airfoil of equal drag.
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A few things have happened since last post.
I had a go at sup foiling and bloody hell its fun. That's what I want to build my setup to do. Was flying on the maliko 200 in about half a metre of surf.
Was also given an old windsurf board to hack up to try surf my foil with and it sure is gonna be a fugly but a more hacked up not build for the job type of fugly. Decided to flip the board and turn it around and cut the nose off it so I ended up with soft rails on the bottom and I also cut a bevel in the back edge.
The mast now has 3 layers of 200gm carbon unis down each side and I coated that with a layer of bog and also coated the glassed up bottom of the shortboard with bog.
Also have a wayy bigger wing in the pipeline.
https://vimeo.com/288119600 (https://vimeo.com/288119600)
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Love it man. Also, it’s good to see the ugly glass job on the board. Makes me feel better. ;)
I faired the corners of my new wing mount but think I have a bit more to do before I lay the carbon on it. Needs to be wider like yours. Considering just hard mounting it and building a whole new mast for the next wing now that I’ve seen more good designs on here. Might get me in the water sooner but could be deadly if I mess up the angle of attack.
You mentioned shimming your stabilizer. I guess that and shims under the mast plate could adjust things pretty well too.
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A week from design to real world object. Pretty happy with it. Cut in 3 parts and glued together. The rebates near the tips are for carbon unis to strengthen the wing to tip joins.
Gonna be a big week, I really want to get it done for the holidays (5 days lol).
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Nicely done Kiwi! That is an impressive wing design.
I like it when a good CNC setup and good plywood turn out like what you have done, with the layers of wood showing the curves in the work.
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That new wing is sweet man.
I need a bit of assistance with my 3D design actually.
I have hopes for my fuse and mast now that they are redone as well. What angle did you end up at for your rear wing? (I’ve been using the “level” app on my phone to get close enough measurements). I’d love to know that before my next test.
The plywood CNC method oks to be the fastest one yet. But, have you considered cutting it out of dense foam? Seems like that would work with a CNC too, no?
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Nicely done Kiwi! That is an impressive wing design.
I like it when a good CNC setup and good plywood turn out like what you have done, with the layers of wood showing the curves in the work.
Thanks JR
Very satisfying to sand the machining marks off and see the perfect layers of ply ;D
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That new wing is sweet man.
I need a bit of assistance with my 3D design actually.
I have hopes for my fuse and mast now that they are redone as well. What angle did you end up at for your rear wing? (I’ve been using the “level” app on my phone to get close enough measurements). I’d love to know that before my next test.
The plywood CNC method oks to be the fastest one yet. But, have you considered cutting it out of dense foam? Seems like that would work with a CNC too, no?
Thanks man
Are you using fusion 360 for design, Ive spent the past 4 years using it so could probably help you out :)
Ive got no accurate way to measure between the trailing edge so Ill draw it up in CAD and get back to you on the angle. (Edit: Its about 1 degree give or take a bit)
New wing is going to be at 1.5 degress, this sound about right for AOA?
Cutting out of dense foam would just mean more reinforcement in the form of carbon or glass. The cnc takes away the hassle of doing a shit load of laminating and gives you and almost perfect object straight off the machine so needing to spend hours laminating over top would be beside the point for me. Yeah foam would be wayy lighter and probably better for foiling but for prototyping I'd rather have a heavy foil and make a new one based on the testing that works better in the same time as making a single foil that might not work for what I need it to.
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A bit more work done this afternoon. Rebates filled with carbon unis then bogged, glassing the trailing edge tomorrow.
Also planned to remake the wing mount into something that can handle this huge new wing. :)
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As far as mast twist and flex. 6 layers of 3K carbon twill layed 45 dgrees and 90 degrees would fix it. Vacuum bagging helps but is not necessary.
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Kiwi thanks and you’re totally right about the plywood for prototypes, keep em fast and weight probably isn’t that big of a deal. Others have said so on here.
Thanks for the offer of help. Yes, I’m in Fusion360. I’ll PM you when I get something I like together. I’m trying to make myself learn a bit and so I’ll do a bit of homework. Cleaning up my garage, wonder if I’ll find space for a CNC lol.
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As far as mast twist and flex. 6 layers of 3K carbon twill layed 45 dgrees and 90 degrees would fix it. Vacuum bagging helps but is not necessary.
Yeah I'm probably going to have to do something like this for the new wing with all the torque acting for the size of the wing. Or just build a new one lol
I would done something like this but we only have carbon unis at home and don't have any cloth. Two of the carbon uni layers are laid at an angle that runs from the top back corner to the bottom front corner and opposite for the other layer so hopefully that does something similar.
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Glued in the glass plate for the bolts to be countersunk into on the wing and glued a plate to the fuz to allow bolt mounting further outboard on the wings.
Didn't have enough time but will reinforce that new fuz wing mount with a whole lot of carbon and glass.
Trailing edge is now glassed and I sanded that up today and put a coat of resin over the whole thing as a temporary waterproofing for this weekends use.
Should be fine for testing but needs a whole filler coat and sand to make it fair.
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did you end up trying the new wing? looks mint! whats the span? and did you vacuum the glass plate for tapping into, im going to do a similar sort of thing on my one but i thought maybe resin rich would be better for tapping.
got my new super downwind flyer ready for glassing, 1100mm span
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did you end up trying the new wing? looks mint! whats the span? and did you vacuum the glass plate for tapping into, im going to do a similar sort of thing on my one but i thought maybe resin rich would be better for tapping.
got my new super downwind flyer ready for glassing, 1100mm span
Yeah I had a go on the new one, didn't do so good in the surf but I'm gonna give it another go because it was shin height lol. Towing behind the boat it went sweet. Started lifting at 5 knots and flew best around 10. I think im gonna play around with stabilisers because Im not sure about this one.
Its 900mm span with 250mm chord. That wing looks mean, keen to see how slow it flies. Whats the chord on it?
The glass is plate dad had laying around from a job a few years ago, Im pretty sure its vacuumed but it works sweet for threading, I use helicoils instead of just straight threads.
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looks good in the video! stabilizers is a tricky one, i gave up and took a mold off a gofoil maliko tail cause they have a nice twist to them and it made a huge difference in every aspect. pitch stability, turning, pumping everything became much easier and smoother.
the chord on this wing is about 260mm. i like them slightly higher aspect ratio with a fuller, rounder leading edge to improve the low speed/ high AoA flying which high aspect ratio wings dont usually like, seems to be working extremely well on my current foil although the heavily swept wing may also have something to do with this
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A few mods over the past couple weeks.
I routed down the wing where the fuz attaches so it doesn't protrude and the fuz is now recessed into and sits nice and flush, way less drag.
Also layed some reinforcement around the mast attachment on the fuz as I can still feel the new wing trying to tear itself free when turning, this should make it super solid and stable.
Next plans are to bog everything up and get a coat of durapox on it because epoxy isn't the best when it comes to drag.
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This is looking great.
I finally got mine back in the bag and fixed the front of my fuse.
I like your wider wing mount. Mine is top mounted too now but only a couple of inches wide. I’m concerned about the stress on my foam and glass wing. Going to beef it up but I’ve got about the same mount size as the Armstrong wings so hoping it’s solid enough. Probably need to build a plywood wing next actually.
Container, how did you get the bend in yours, did you put relief cuts in the bottom and then fill them? Also, how thick are y’all’s wings?
Final question. I’m looking for stainless threaded inserts. Should I use helicoils instead? Which do you think is stronger? I just figured the screw in threaded inserts were the best I could do for mounting in wood.
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This is looking great.
I finally got mine back in the bag and fixed the front of my fuse.
I like your wider wing mount. Mine is top mounted too now but only a couple of inches wide. I’m concerned about the stress on my foam and glass wing. Going to beef it up but I’ve got about the same mount size as the Armstrong wings so hoping it’s solid enough. Probably need to build a plywood wing next actually.
Container, how did you get the bend in yours, did you put relief cuts in the bottom and then fill them? Also, how thick are y’all’s wings?
Final question. I’m looking for stainless threaded inserts. Should I use helicoils instead? Which do you think is stronger? I just figured the screw in threaded inserts were the best I could do for mounting in wood.
This new wing is a NACA 4416 so at 250mm chord thats 40mm thick.
If you are threading into solid glass or carbon I would go with helicoils but it sounds like threaded inserts might be better for wood.
Container might have laminated several layers of a smaller thickness across his mold but I'm not totally sure, relief cuts don't really make any sense for strength.
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After I posted I thought of laminating a few thinner layers. Hit send too soon.
Those don’t look 40mm (1.5” for US) thick in the pics. That’s thicker than I thought from looking at it.
Yes, I have a wood core in my fuse so the inserts will be seated (epoxied into) wood. After pulling it out of the bag tonight I’m thinking of adding a slightly bigger plate like you have under the fuse. I feel like I have the fuse sorted now but I’m concerned that I could break my wing if I don’t reinforce it due to the lateral forces if the bolts are only 30-40mm apart. Even 10-15mm on each side would give way better leverage.
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After I posted I thought of laminating a few thinner layers. Hit send too soon.
Those don’t look 40mm (1.5” for US) thick in the pics. That’s thicker than I thought from looking at it.
Yes, I have a wood core in my fuse so the inserts will be seated (epoxied into) wood. After pulling it out of the bag tonight I’m thinking of adding a slightly bigger plate like you have under the fuse. I feel like I have the fuse sorted now but I’m concerned that I could break my wing if I don’t reinforce it due to the lateral forces if the bolts are only 30-40mm apart. Even 10-15mm on each side would give way better leverage.
Yeah I've found that getting the connection between the front wing and your feet as stiff as possible is very handy when it comes to turning or even controlling it, the original fuz wing connection I had was fine for my little wing but the bit one yanks a bit harder on the mast and you can definitely feel it. Can you upload some picutres of your fuz to wing connection I need to get my head round it.
Yeah my wing is definitely 40mm at it's thickest point, I am starting to wonder about using fusion to model because it seems like the shape tapers off very quickly and becomes thinner much quicker than youd think, from looking at other foil brands they don't tend to do this. Maybe it's just the wing outline causing it or maybe designers using multiple stations with profiles that get thicker further down the wing but I'll do some more research into it first.
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I have often wondered about either using the same wing profile from wing root to wing tip which is what I currently use(NACA 4416/4417) or changing the wing profiles from root to tip. Have not yet heard of anyone using different wing profiles. My wing tips seem plenty "thick". Just curious?
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I could see Fusion introducing some weirdness but I never thought about before.
I’ll update my build thread soon. Posting pics from an iPad is a hassle and I only use this at night (I get plenty of computer time during the day lol)
My current plan is to just see if I can get a foil to fly. If so, I already have my next design worked out. You know how that goes. The second one of everything is better. Haha.
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Got quite a bit done since last post.
I made a new stab, this one has a bit more area just interested to see how that affects things.
Coated everything in durepox and started sanding today but its still a tad gummy. (the lighter colour is what it looks like sanded)
Also ive got a 4'7" prone board hacked up from another board going on in the background.
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After building two front wings, 3 tail wings and a rudder I have finally found the issue I was talking about with weirdness in fusion 360. Using loft instead of sweep.
By using loft I was taking the profiles to a point which meant that I was losing out on shape and they profile was basically symmetrical at halfway between the tip and the root.
You can see in the photo the amount of volume the wing is missing out on.
Ah well
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This sort of thing will make you crazy man. Glad you found the issue.
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After building two front wings, 3 tail wings and a rudder I have finally found the issue I was talking about with weirdness in fusion 360. Using loft instead of sweep.
By using loft I was taking the profiles to a point which meant that I was losing out on shape and they profile was basically symmetrical at halfway between the tip and the root.
You can see in the photo the amount of volume the wing is missing out on.
Ah well
That's a good catch. I never noticed that.
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Been a while since ive posted, plenty of shit has happened
The original foil has been put on hold due to my disinterest in heavy, ugly foil shapes
After discovering I had been missing out on a whole lot of lift in my original wings I decided to start fresh and got to work on the wing below which has a span of 800mm and a max chord of 200mm. My new design consisted of a whole lot of weight reduction in the form of a cedar carbon mast and glass tube fuz with wings still reasonably heavy until I get a hold of some more cedar. I designed my wing fuz join similar to axis and started cutting the new wing. After cutting the three parts (two wing tips and the main section) I realised I could have just designed it to be interchangeable with all the axis gear and I wouldn't have to wait until building an entire foil from the ground up to be able to use this new wing, my friend owns a few axis setups and was/is willing to let me use them to test my wing. After this realization I spent the next two weeks running around like a headless chicken trying to get it finished in time for the school holidays so I could test it in the swell and dont worry I did.
In between my last post and now I also built a prone foil board out of an old windsurfer which has been good apart from the fact is weighs a kilo more after a session than what it began at. So I also patched that up and gave it a new coat of paint before the holidays too, plan is to build a fresh one from scratch and make it indestructible over the next year.
During the holidays the swell was pretty average and was about 0.3m of windy blown out shit with no gut behind it whatsoever, probably perfect for sup foiling but I need some more power in the wave for my little wing on my prone board. The river creek thing where we stayed over the holidays was perfect for pumping off with the axis 1020 wing.
https://vimeo.com/332920725
https://vimeo.com/332921435
Next in the works is the above stated prone foil board, probably around 5 foot 40 litres and a high aspect pump wing/downwind because everyone seems to be heading towards high aspect.
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Ah, generation two is a huge leap forward.
Love the cedar idea. Redwood ( in the states) would also work. Also smart joint on the wing. You can use commercial parts or build your own.
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Really nice looking wing. Well done! I just finished my extra-large front wing and only need to put the finish coat on and scrape and sand. The big surprise being that I did not need the expected 3 layers of glass and 2 layers of 3K twill. It only needed 1 layer of 6oz and 1 layer of 3K carbon at 45 degrees. I was looking for more flex but no twist. It ended up having really good flex characteristics and I can still stand on the wing tips with out breaking the wing. It is currently lighter than a Gofoil maliko 280. Been too busy foiling to finish up the finish work but got the week off so it’ll get done. I too am planning a new fuselage and new attachment but that will have to wait. Carbon fiber hockey sticks make a great starter for a fuselage. Got two for $6 and can make 4 fuselages with them. I make a reinforced insert to beef them up. Thanks for sharing pics. Once again, your wings are beautiful and they look like they crush!