Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: AlexFun on June 11, 2018, 01:21:29 PM
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Hy,
the Slingshot Foils esp. the H2 doesn't get too good reviews from certain users here, esp. when over 190 lbs.
Does anyone have tested the SS H4?
It has significantly more area than the H2, 1360 sqcm vs. 1150 sqcm.
About as much area as the Takuma V400, more than e. g. the Takumam V100, Naish Thrust L or Gofoil Kai.
But it's not a big wing like the IWA or Maliko.
On the other hand: Is surface area everything or are there other factors, like span or profile thickness?
Alex
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Friend I met while trying to sell my Slingshot rig, had offered to purchase only the H2 wing I had because he was already proning a Slingshot foil with the H4 wing, and while able to get it to fly (he weighs about 180 lbs) he wasn't able to for very long, and was thinking the H2 would be easier to pump with as he was told by Slingshots owner/designer.
While I couldn't/didn't sell him mine, he was able to acquire an H2 wing by itself, and while he did find it more "pumpable" than the H4, still wasn't getting the rides he was seeing other prone guys getting from their Go Foils, Naishes, and Cloud Nines....so he ended up buying the Go Foil Kai/Iwa Combo, and has done nothing but rave about the Iwa (hasn't tried the Kai yet as far as I know).
After his 2nd outing with the Iwa, he texted all excited about a run up the Seal Beach Jetty of 440 yards on "ripple surf" with a combination of pumping, and gliding...pretty much over 5 times the distance he'd ever got out of either of his Slingshot wings. "Was also able to pump back out 50-75 yards after a while retry ride (spelling verbatim)" he wrote in the same text.
I'm not an engineer of any kind, so can't get into all of the pertinent specs wrt all of the different foils, and wings...but I can relay mine, and others experience with several different foils, and I've not talked to one person that liked, and kept the Slingshot, regardless of the wing(s) they were running with it.
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Does anybody know if Slingshot will offer a bigger wing than the H4 for 2019?
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Does anybody know if Slingshot will offer a bigger wing than the H4 for 2019?
The two 2019 Infinity H10 and H11? look pretty darn big https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4hzGhYMvf8
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Yeah, still not sold on them until I see them under a SUP, in the waves, with a guy around the 200 lb. weight range on them.
Small foils are fine for surfing or behind boat/jet ski, under a kite, or sail....but I've not seen one that's worked well enough for the bigger guys on SUPs.
When the Go Foil Kai came out there were plenty of them on SUPs, as it was the only size available initially, but once the Malikos, and Iwas came out, I've not seen a Kai on a SUP since then...that's locally at Sano in less then head high+ conditions I should add.
If the new Slingshots are about the same size as the GF Iwas well then I'd say they they have a chance. If their smaller than that, and more in the neighborhood of the Kai...well then not so much. JMO obviously.
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Check sizes. These new ones are sized like the GoFoils.
Companies listen and adapt to the market... the ones that stay in business at least.
You get a season in this biz before your competition figures out what they are doing wrong. Now GoFoil has a year to fix that multiple wing thing. The pendulum swings.
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As surfcowboy said they are sized more like the go foils now, seems like a pretty reasonable option.
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wow, great data--sic beasho on this!
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My one and only attempt (I don't live near surf) at SUP foiling was on the H4 and it was futile. It may have been my complete rookie status but I tow foil with it now and I need 17mph to fly on the H4. I doubt it's suitable for SUP and especially a heavier person. Luckily it works very well as a kite foil.
The new Infinities (at least the 84) should work. One thing that concerns me is they seem to have a low aspect ratio of 3.3 - 3.7 compared to 4 - 5 of the others.
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Hi, I have been riding the 84 ride engine/slingshot foil and really like it, I weigh about 200. Really stable, predictable, and flies in nothing.
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Check sizes. These new ones are sized like the GoFoils.
Companies listen and adapt to the market... the ones that stay in business at least.
As surfcowboy said they are sized more like the go foils now, seems like a pretty reasonable option.
Well that's good. Then from my statement above, "If the new Slingshots are about the same size as the GF Iwas well then I'd say they they have a chance", which from cowboy's chart (awesome chart btw, where'd you get it?)....the "Infinity 76" almost mirrors it.
So yes I agree then, they now seem "like a pretty reasonable option", and I would definitely like to give the two Infinities a try now....so I could be the one demoing "them under a SUP, in the waves, with a guy around the 200 lb. weight range on them". ;) ;D
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I need 17mph to fly on the H4
17 mph is Too fast for flight in normal waves.
My data shows that the GoFoils Maliko 200 and Iwa will start to lift at ~ 6 mph. They will fly at 9 mph on the verge of stall.
Comfortable flight speeds are 10 to 14 mph.
15 mph starts to feel really fast. 20 mph becomes overwhelming. 25 mph and you are lucky to keep the Iwa in the water (Maliko 200 no-way)
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So maybe per Beasho , the best way to compare/measure would be pure upward lifting force at different speeds each foil.
Surface area and width not so helpful...
Granted that's not 'surfability, but for this year at least, it feels like theres almost too many choices, and I would like to be able to have one front with a couple of tail wings for low speed sailing, and surfing
THis vid seems helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ilHHh8cOwM
I like sailing the H2, but wouldn't surf it unless I had a big rear wing
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Hi, I have been riding the 84 ride engine/slingshot foil and really like it, I weigh about 200. Really stable, predictable, and flies in nothing.
I had invested in Slingshot since their modular system allowed me to also windsurf foil and kite foil. I had resigned myself to the fact that it would not be useful for SUP foil but this is very good news. You had previously been on a different foil correct? Any comparisons you can make?
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This was a cool chart I happened upon one day: http://www.mackiteboarding.com/news/lets-chat-choosing-a-surf-hydrofoil/
I think I found a few errors on sizes, but most of it seems correct.
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Hi, I have been riding the 84 ride engine/slingshot foil and really like it, I weigh about 200. Really stable, predictable, and flies in nothing.
I had invested in Slingshot since their modular system allowed me to also windsurf foil and kite foil. I had resigned myself to the fact that it would not be useful for SUP foil but this is very good news. You had previously been on a different foil correct? Any comparisons you can make?
I have a Foil Science 116 (about the size of the go foil Kai), and I started on a the original gofoil maliko. Sold the mailko because not upgradable, and to big for a lot of my conditions. I remember the maliko lifting easily and tracking well in a straight line. The kai and foil science are both really fast and nimble and good for bigger steeper waves, also sensitive and require concentration and focus. The manta 84 lifts at like 3-5mph and is so easy to fly, ridiculously easy to fly. becomes a handful in bigger or steeper waves, and I suspect lighter guys would want the 76. Both foil science and ride engine/slingshot are completely modular and all the parts are interchangeable and upgradable, biggest selling point for me. Also both local for me so I can go talk to the guys if I need help or want to demo something.
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As surfcowboy said they are sized more like the go foils now, seems like a pretty reasonable option.
That's a great chart! & appears to be much more accurate (especially considering the GF sizes, although a couple of them still seem a bit larger than what we calculated) than most other info. I've seen.
I don't mean to hijack the thread but since it appears we're not on your guys radar I wanted to list our sizes as well since our foil sizes are more geared for SUP/surf:
The Ke Nalu 'Iwa 580 wing has a surface area of 1084cm2, a wingspan of 58cm with an aspect ratio of 3.33
'Iwa 775- Surface are of 1496cm2, Wingspan 77.5cm, aspect ratio 4.14 (this is the "go to" size for most & has been getting great reviews)
970 (currently being tested, available soon)- Surface are of 1994cm2, Wingspan 97cm, aspect ratio 4.88 (this is a dedicated downwinder foil)
More info. on our website www.kenalu.com (http://www.kenalu.com) & please feel free to P.M. here or email through customerservice@kenalu.com with any questions.
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So, if you had to pick between 2018 Slingshot foils for kiting and then moving into SUP - H2 or H4? Sounds like H2 may be easier to learn on, H4 is better for progression (turning on waves, etc.)
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As surfcowboy said they are sized more like the go foils now, seems like a pretty reasonable option.
That's a great chart! & appears to be much more accurate (especially considering the GF sizes, although a couple of them still seem a bit larger than what we calculated) than most other info. I've seen.
I don't mean to hijack the thread but since it appears we're not on your guys radar I wanted to list our sizes as well since our foil sizes are more geared for SUP/surf:
The Ke Nalu 'Iwa 580 wing has a surface area of 1084cm2, a wingspan of 58cm with an aspect ratio of 3.33
'Iwa 775- Surface are of 1496cm2, Wingspan 77.5cm, aspect ratio 4.14 (this is the "go to" size for most & has been getting great reviews)
970 (currently being tested, available soon)- Surface are of 1994cm2, Wingspan 97cm, aspect ratio 4.88 (this is a dedicated downwinder foil)
More info. on our website www.kenalu.com (http://www.kenalu.com) & please feel free to P.M. here or email through customerservice@kenalu.com with any questions.
Lane, the Naish foil designer says “All Naish Wing areas are measured in "Projected Area". Whilst actual surface area is useful for calculating parasitic drag and the like, it is projected are that will have the most importance to a ride”
Are your numbers projected, and do you know from measuring others, who is using projected and who is using surface area.
These charts could be worthless with this monkey wrench thrown in.
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As surfcowboy said they are sized more like the go foils now, seems like a pretty reasonable option.
That's a great chart! & appears to be much more accurate (especially considering the GF sizes, although a couple of them still seem a bit larger than what we calculated) than most other info. I've seen.
I don't mean to hijack the thread but since it appears we're not on your guys radar I wanted to list our sizes as well since our foil sizes are more geared for SUP/surf:
The Ke Nalu 'Iwa 580 wing has a surface area of 1084cm2, a wingspan of 58cm with an aspect ratio of 3.33
'Iwa 775- Surface are of 1496cm2, Wingspan 77.5cm, aspect ratio 4.14 (this is the "go to" size for most & has been getting great reviews)
970 (currently being tested, available soon)- Surface are of 1994cm2, Wingspan 97cm, aspect ratio 4.88 (this is a dedicated downwinder foil)
More info. on our website www.kenalu.com (http://www.kenalu.com) & please feel free to P.M. here or email through customerservice@kenalu.com with any questions.
Lane, the Naish foil designer says “All Naish Wing areas are measured in "Projected Area". Whilst actual surface area is useful for calculating parasitic drag and the like, it is projected are that will have the most importance to a ride”
Are your numbers projected, and do you know from measuring others, who is using projected and who is using surface area.
These charts could be worthless with this monkey wrench thrown in.
I'm 99% sure ours are also projected (they were sized by my 3D design guy). I know when we've attempted to look at others it's projected area we were looking at (& what we found with Naish foils is that we agreed with what they reported...not so much with others. Those that do report their sizing anyway) but honestly I have no idea what others are doing when measuring their own & it does make it confusing because everyone sizes seem to be all over the map. I agree with what you mentioned Nils had to say about the comparison between actual & projected. & also the fact that without everyone measuring the same way it does throw a wrench in the works.
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I have the H2, H5 and Infinity 76 wings and all of the various masts and the switch fuse. I absolutely love the interchangeability of all these parts. This system works really well for me because I use them for kiting, surfing and sup surfing. I started my accumulating wings problem last fall. Just got the Infinity 76 a few weeks ago and am loving it. I have logged a ton of hours kiting on all 3 and a around 30 sessions of supping and surfing. I have had many reef strikes with these wings and have been blown away at the durability. A direct smash into a rock has only resulted in a small scratch that can bee easily sanded out. I have mostly been connecting the mast right into the wings as opposed to aft of the wing. This is another awesome tuning option which changes the amount of lift and turnyness.
Here are my reviews:
H5- fast turny kiting wing. Likes fast speeds. Stalls easily at around 10mph. Great fun behind a boat.
H2- Heaps of lift at low speeds and stable left to right. I have had most of my surf sessions on this and had a bunch of short flights right out of the gates. I should note that most of my surf sessions have been at peaky beachbreaks, not the optimal foil conditions but fun. I have had a bunch of time pumping this one with a kite in 8-10 mph of wind(not even capping) It is a really smooth pumper which enables me to kite through large holes in the wind. This has helped pumping in the surf immensely. Pitch control is fairly user friendly.
Infinity 76- Only had a few surfs and few hours kiting on this one so far. Stable, stable, stable. This one doesn't shoot out and breach easily like the H2. It is very easy to maintain elevation. Stability left to right is solid. I actually prefer the H2's slightly more turnyness to this one. This one seems to take a little more speed to get up than the H2 but once up will go slower without stalling. This probably has to do with the lower aspect design. I am still getting to know this wing. Its really predictable in all directions. This will probably be my go to wing in most wave surfing situations except really small surf. I just ordered the Infinity 84 to cover that situation.
Having all of these wings and two different length masts 24" and 35.5" and the adjustable track mounts and the switch fuse, has been really exciting to go out and try different setups. I have been prone surfing and kiting on a 5'6" Slingshot Simulator soft top board and using my older Hokua 8' 10" 115L for suping. I have been going strapless on all but am going to try some on the Hokua. The problem with that is that when its really choppy and hard to sup, I end up proning the Hokua, and wouldn't be able to prone with straps. I guess I could remove them for that situation.
Anyway, that's what I know. I will post review of the Infinity 84 after I get some time on it.
Oh, and I did attempt some dock starts on the 76 yesterday and was able to get short rides. The 84 will become my urban assault wing.
I also have a banshee bungee that I have been playing around with.
The weight of the Slingshot system doesn't seem to be a problem for me. I believe that the durability is a worthwhile tradeoff.
-Tom
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Nice review daswusup looking forward to your incite on the 84".
I like the idea of a completely interchangeablity foil system. I have a couple of questions if you can.
Would putting the mast further back on the fuselage, give it more or less lift surfing?
Any idea if they have plans on a bigger downwind type for foil?
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Would putting the mast further back on the fuselage, give it more or less lift surfing?
It's easiest for me to think of all of this foil(ing) geometry in the simplified analogy of standing on top of a teeter-totter, adjusting your weight and foot placement on top of it so as to be able to attempt to balance it level.
With that in mind, where you put the fulcrum plays a big roll in that, and the amount of teeter-totter (now think SUP/surfboard) that you have out in front vs behind that fulcrum has a big effect on that....and how readily you're going to be able to quickly adjust that teeter-totter/board as you're going down the line at 10-15 mph (or even faster at times) on a wave.
So now as far as your question goes, moving the mast further forward on the fuselage, is like moving the "fulcrum" (the tip of the wing is what I've personally found it to be) back...and thus giving you more teeter-totter/board out in front of you, making it less easy to "lift" the front end of it up. So if you were on the teeter-totter, you'd instinctively move back further on it to make it easier to lift that now longer front end...so you'd have to do the same when trying to lift the front of your board/foil.
When talking with the new guys getting into the sport, and trying to help them as much as is possibly "on the beach" (ya just gotta got experiment in the water with it really)...I use the teeter-totter example, and it seems to help them some when out on the water figuring what the board/foil is telling them just by how they're being thrown off of it initially. :)
Just my take on it anyway.
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I am riding the Ghost Whisperer 101 cm mast with a moses 590 on it for kiting. I am in CO so dont get a lot of wind days, but i surf behind a mastecarft x45.
I have an old slingshot NF2 foil with 24 inch mast i learned on.
Any idea how the NF 2 will work? I weight around 215.
Thanks
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Living not nearby the ocean i can only surf in my holidays. My weight is around 90 kg / 200 lbs.
I bought a 2018 SS + H4 in may and had it out behind a boat and found it needed so much speed that i could hardly reach on a wave for takeoff.
So i bought a 2019 SS Infintiy 76 for my recent Portugal trip. Only tried it 5 times, since on the other days waves where too high/small.
I had two short flights on my 3rd session, this day in chesthigh crumbling onshore waves, noone out than me, stoked. But the following days with waisthigh clean beachbreak i was struggling in getting enough speed for liftoff before reaching the shallow areas, now i am a little tossed if i should keep the foil because once chesthigh and clean, i rather supsurf the classic way.
Maybe i should've bought the Infinity 84 for the small waves, but i was afraid this wing will be too big since it's a downwind wing.
Alex
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Has anybody tried the Infinity 84 with the standard, smaller stabilizer wing like it comes with the FSurf Infinity 76 foil?
Or does the Infinity 84 only work with the dedicated bigger rear wing of the FSup foil?
Alex