Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => SUP General => Topic started by: eastbound on June 04, 2018, 02:55:38 AM
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-05-15/this-man-is-building-an-armada-of-saildrones-to-conquer-the-ocean
moving super smart buoys
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Terminator of the Seas...
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Great story man. It's also cool to see that guy go from living on $11,000 a year to getting tens of millions of dollars in funding and launching a giant company based on his weird skill set.
I love the idea and I'm stoked to see we're going to learn more about the oceans. Crazy what research ships cost.
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What cowboy said...very cool.
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made me think of poor pono--living in his car way back when!!
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could be there's a correlate there?--live in car==> SUCCEED!!??
in case pono feels like he has SUCCEEDed
if i am as mobile as he, and still doing fun sports, at his fair age, i will call that a success.....................
oh and i'd like my brain to still work too, thk you
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Having been very poor gives a lot of advantages. One is simply gratitude, hugely valuable. Another is confidence--I don't need much to survive and even be very comfortable and happy. I still love beans and cornbread. Another is fundamental frugality. That might not be visible from the outside, but I'm a cheapskate. I get a lot for my money, generally. The biggest benefit is empathy. I don't "blame" people for being poor. When I see some homeless guy pushing a shopping cart I think "there but for some genetic differences and a lot of luck, go I".
I like the design of these drones. I had a similar idea some time ago, I still would like to build an autonomous boat, and sailing or some other form of wind power is obvious. There's a great deal of value in that kind of exploration, I'm not surprised he found funding. The only surprise is that he knew how to go about that. I suspect there's an angel there somewhere who put together the financial stuff. Either that or he's a lot more sophisticated than he seems.
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this is the next big thing like faceplant & giggle 8)
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Funny you mentioned my bro....all I could think of when I saw this was it looks like something Bill would have built in the attic 60+ years ago...I think he used plywood and bondo though not carbon fiber.... :)
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What a great idea for research.
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We have a pretty large facility in Hayward. I can say without question that a place that big in Alameda is not cheap by anyone's standard. Very cool design (but I couldn't help cynically thinking that it's only a matter of time before they're weaponized).
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yep--wouldnt be remotely odd to consider it likely he got cia $$$$$
nefarious use of drones , any kind, is frightening
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DARPA....and guaranteed the hydrophones and other instruments on board will be listening/looking for more than just whale song and waves.
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Very impressive. What is there to stop someone who happens upon one from stealing it?
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Very impressive. What is there to stop someone who happens upon one from stealing it?
I'm guessing lasers.....
(https://s.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/5a5a098c0b3683b04cae7b7e637b9287/201641379/alderan.gif)
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This seems similar to what the private space industry has been doing. Would be interesting to see how they collaborate. Google maps for the ocean with water views?
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Alameda is a great location - nice weather and proximity to wind (the downside can be traffic, unless you're lucky enough to commute by boat or live/work on the island). There's definitely some major league backing/connections involved. Both Google 1 (Larry Page) and Google 2 (Sergey Brin) plus other Google execs. have all been chasing wind - Waddell Creek, Coyote or Sherman Island. It doesn't surprise me that the wind has brought these folks together. Good on Richard Jenkins.
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Spent some time in Alameda when I was on the Enterprise. A little more time than we were supposed to. We didn't run aground going over the mud bank. No sir. Of course our Captain got the boot, and there was a big gouge taken out of the bank that wound up in our main condensers, and all the reactors but one was scrammed from high temperature in the hot leg (plugged condensers do that, no heat sink). And there was a lot of screaming and yelling, but we didn't run aground. Just seemed like it. A lot like it.
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That's a great story PB!
Capt. R.J. Kelly said bluntly: 'I am the captain and I was in control. I am totally responsible for what happened. The cause is under investigation. We do not know at this time exactly what happened.'
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1983/04/28/The-nuclear-aircraft-carrier-USS-Enterprise-ran-aground-in/8921420350400/
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Great story and instant verification!
Pono, the gratitude and empathy are key elements of life. Strange how it's missing in so many areas of our culture now. It saves me daily.
You can't be an entrepreneur without a huge dose of, "everything will be fine."
Took a big ass hit today in my biz but within 2 hours I could see that that hole I thought was blown in our plan is just a door to the next phase. We're rolling through it and ended on a high note. Sure, there's still going to be wreckage to clear, but in the grand scheme, all this stuff is just noise and BS. Waves don't care, they just keep coming, right?
The only way I can feel that way is the knowledge that I can live happily on a lot of money or a little and my wife shares that view. The irony is that folks who see both sides, and fear neither, often end up on the positive end of that range. (Note the real f word in there.)
I tell all my friends, I found my beautiful wife once I was willing to date women I thought weren't physically attractive. (My wife is a stunner.) I was no longer looking for the outside stuff and that ended up making me more attractive to women. Same with business. I hustle and still work to grow wealth, but it's all a game and I try to maintain gratitude for every meal and every breath and not focus just on the zeros. And me too, I could have ended up pushing one of those carts for sure myself if I hadn't been born lucky, and in just the right way, in just the right place, at just the right time, to just the right parents. Damn, what are the odds?
Thx guys, I needed to read all of this today.
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wow pb--you were there!
and cowboy--i have reached a similar attitude to my biz--given the stress so many of my friends have as they try to keep earning thru their 50's into 60's, i feel very lucky that i have a reasonable platform at which to work and do meaningful stuff every day--where i can choose when to walk away-i appreciate that as much as the money i make---perhaps my ambiton aint burning as hard as when i was younger, but my biz thrives nonetheless--makes me believe decency and empathy can coexist with good biz--or more: that empathy and decency are actually good for biz
one thing re this is certain: i have people who work for and partner with me. some are incredibly valauable to me and are frequently courted by my competition. i need them way more than they need me. i strive to make the world i provide them as "sticky" as possible, via good support, compensation, etc. but one thing that surprised me was the sticky effect that results from showing compassion to less-valuable partners and employees---ive had my assets say "wow, rick, that you didnt shaft so and so, and gave him a chance to redeem himself, was impressive--that's quality leadership--when i see that, i know im in the right place"---now, honestly, if people dont hurt me, and treat me well, i reciprocate--them's life values. and i aint jesus christ, but i do seek to espouse decency and empathy---always thought it might cost me a bit, or be close to neutral re biz impact, but operated as tho that's just something you do, profit or not--but what a pleasant surprise that decency and kindness breeds loyalty from those who dont need at all to be loyal--and i have no biz without loyal effectiv epartners and employees--so it's clearly good for biz
now eff with me? cheat me? bye bye and dont think time will make me forget
re birthright--i won that lottery--ive worked hard and tried to be prudent and decent, but without birthright, all this shlt'd be pure fantasy.............
and really? most successful americans have won some sort of birthright lottery---pity those who think it's all them
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The simple fact that I'm here living (assuming I really am) means all my ancestors survived long enough to reproduce. Not just the homo sapiens, but all the way back to the first wad of chemicals that writhed a little bit, picked up some energy and information, and then reproduced. Every business and every human with a pair of shoes and a bucket relies on infrastructure that they had no hand in creating. The notion that anyone did anything by themselves is bankrupt. Ayn Rand was an idiot who could write well.
I've learned both sides of treating employees well and being decent. I've reaped the rewards and I've been screwed. Doesn't matter. There are a lot of reasons to jump off a bridge, but I suspect one of the biggies is simply detesting yourself.
Eastbound--yes, I was there, but clueless as usual. I was a trainee in the #3 reactor plant, sitting at the control panel for one of the two reactors with my trainer off talking to someone. Everything flat, straight and normal when I suddenly got a high temperature alarm and average temperature started climbing. The operator sitting next to me on the other reactor (Crusader Rabbit was his nickname, for reasons that were obvious when anyone looked at him) had the same alarm. He stood up and scrammed his plant, then reached over to do mine when I came out of my stupor and beat him to it. The throttleman for the main turbine started spinning his throttles shut as the condenser pressure was shooting up and the plant sup (who I dimly recall was a huge Master Chief from Louisiana named John Guilliot) asked us what the fuck we thought we were doing scramming the plant during docking maneuvers. Jim Rhode, my sea daddy and trainer walked over, looked at my panel, and said "you did the right thing for a change, dipshit" (which was threatening to become my nickname). All hell broke loose, everyone was yelling. I didn't know what was going on until it was long over.
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Speaking of businesses. As a side hustle, I took over a small land surveying business a few years ago. It was in really bad shape financially and administratively. I took it over as president with two of the employees as minor partners while the prior owner fled the state. We were able to heal it up and now have a really good client base and profits are pretty easy to come by. :fingerscrossed:
One of my partners is an American Indian and I told him that once the company was solvent and the downside risk was mitigated we would give him more ownership and register as a disadvantaged business. We have gone through the change in ownership over the past month. This morning he asked me to sign his request for vacation. I said "Dude, your'e the president of the company." It was funny to watch the wave of realization come over his face.
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this post is going #$%^ lets go supping :P
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You mean it's not still about saildrones??
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Sounds like a Kiddie Cruise. So glad I was in a Navel Air.
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I reported aboard in 1969 and left the navy in 1972. The grounding in the story you mention, Bean, was in 1980. Our Captain was named Tissot, and he got the boot for just skimming the mudbank. We didn't get hung up, and it wasn't called a "grounding". We were told in no uncertain terms that we didn't run around.
The Enterprise has been decommissioned, which makes me feel very old. It was a pretty new ship in 1969 despite a fire and some 500 pound bombs going off on the deck and jamming up one of the elevators. Hard to believe it was taken out of service in 2012 and decommissioned in 2017.
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At the other end of the marine technology spectrum, I had a summer job on a 300' fish processor that was converted from a 1930's oil tanker (I kid you not). Powered by 2 Nordberg 850hp diesels she would do about 8 kts. On the other hand, she would also process about 8 million pounds of salmon in a season.
I also had a summer job working on the SS Manhattan at Hunters Point. (Still the worlds largest ice breaker). After an extensive refitting, she ran aground in a typhoon and was sold for scrap.
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The notion that anyone did anything by themselves is bankrupt. Ayn Rand was an idiot who could write well.
To call a lady like this is not very gentlemanly... Especially if she can't answer... Especially if she wrote Atlas Shrugged, the most read book (in the fiction category) in the history
Sure Bill you was born in United States, the best country on this planet, and there was no merit of yours... Realise however that it is a tremendous luck and a huge advantage on its own.
She was born in the shithole and she saw and experienced a lot... things you can't even imagine... and there was no guilt on her part.
But she had a brain, and a mind and a free spirit and ability to analyse and see the primary and the secondary. And the talent, and she overcame and left a legacy.
and the phrase about the notion, you mean "you didn't build it", right? The true Marxist idea proclaimed by a true Marxist, BTW. And this idea is a real bankrupt.
and if you think for a moment that nothing depends on the individual, just read two pages in this book about what passengers in the doomed train think, the train that goes into the tunnel goes, and ask yourself a Q: who is an idiot? and is it really nothing depends from you?
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i aint touching this one--despite the layup it would be to have at it..............
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I've read everything Ayn Rand wrote, hell of a writer, but IMHO she wandered off the tracks. Your post, on the other hand, leaves me itching for a blue pencil. How much more bankrupt is "real bankrupt". I understand the Marxist claim, but the notion that we didn't build the infrastructure we benefit from is hardly unique to Marx. If you don't understand that reality you're unlikely to be able to create anything complex.
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oh yeah, "your post blahblahblah... yadayada..."
of course! make it personal! standard operational procedure!
goes even better: "if you don't understand reality..."
of course - you arguing with someone who doesn't understands reality, ... sure...
and silently moving a goalpost about a mile away from what I said, and most importantly what you had said.
How about being focused and staying on Ayn Rand, whom you called "an idiot" - do I quote you correctly?
Yeah you may be read everything but did you understand? Or it is enough just to say that "she wandered of the tracks" - end of story! end of discussion... PonoBill says so... must be so...
Regardless here is her interview.
In my view an interview with a very very very very smart and bright lady. (I first wrote, much smarter lady than the PonoBill, but then I crossed it out, not to go personal - so I am trying, trying really hard :) )
Lets forget first 15 minutes, philosophy, objectivism....
But starting at 15:00 where exactly did she "wander of the tracks" ?
(the interview is 40 years old, but it appears she talks today)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAFKnfN4bfk&feature=youtu.be
And if you decide to answer and defend your "idiot" point, please refrain of discussing me. It is not about me. It is about you calling her an "idiot".
Or "wandering off the tracks".
So go ahead, starting at 15:00 pls. point to at least to a single statement that is "idiotic", kindly :)
Just to prove your point.
Or alternatively please take back your "idiot" and "wandering of the track" comments.
Thank you.
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Now that's a good rant right there! ;D
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Yup. Good thing he was able to refrain from being personal.
I consider Objectivism to be a ridiculous and dangerous philosophy. That's my opinion. There's nothing to retract.
And by the way, my use of the word "You" in that statement "If you don't understand that reality you're unlikely to be able to create anything complex." is intended as second person plural--not referring to you individually. If you like, you could translate that as "If people don't understand that reality they're unlikely to create anything complex."
I'm hardly the only person that considers Ayn Rand to be an idiot. Google "Critique of Ayn Rand" and find a million articles, from the scholarly to the sophomoric. The first results that pops up is "The Virtue of Stupidity: A Critique of Ayn Rand and Objectivism." Go bitch at him.
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oh yeah your use of "Your post, on the other hand, leaves me itching for a blue pencil.." - it is also is a second person plural, nothing personal of course.
Are you totally honest? or just pretend ?
and thank you very much for explaining to me the intricacy of second person plural, it so subtle, and gentle - but do you really think I don't know this? or you trying to make another personal touch? like with a blue pencil...
and again, why suddenly you move to objectivism?
from "you haven't build it" straight to objectivism.
Is n't it moving a goalpost again? can't stay focused?
and specifically , I said first 15 minutes in this interview is philosophy, Objectivism, lets not touch it...
lets talk about second half after 15:00, the part that more or less deals with "you haven't build it", that you are so proud of...
staying within the frame of discussion is difficult, I understand...
whatever - but "Objectivism is ridiculious and dangerous philosophy" but marxism is OK for you??
do you understand the difference? Like how many humans were killed by this dangerous philosophy (objectivism, that is)?
And how many hundreds of millions by marxists of all different varieties, from international socialists (aka commis) to national socialists (aka nazis)
Go bitch more on objectivism. Google (aka goolag) is a great help. Lots of scholars with that kind of ideas... majority rules! Like 500 years ago majority was thinking that the Earth is flat and in the centre of Universe.
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i put several hours into reading atlas shrugged and the fountainhead--dont care to waste 30 mins on some interview that impressed you (2nd person singular)--not surprising to those who know me, my hours of reading and my intellectual underpinnings were all i needed to conclude that:
ayn rand is total garbage
and 30 seconds of reading drivel here informs clearly that you are one angry ayn rander---succeed much? or are your failings all about you?
and no prob that she's your heroine--but you gotta handle it better that many disagree with you
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this is getting nasty... and personal against me...
now "I am a failure"... may be.
But for your info - I run away from Soviet Union, when I was 37
I came to North America absolutely legally with working visa, working and paying my taxes from day one, so yeah, I am an immigrant (completely legally with many years of queue and legal work), not an undocumented alien
And yes for the last 27 years I try to assimilate every day.
And yes I have an accent and I am sure it is visible when I write, not only when I speak.
And I consider North America is a god blessed paradise, simply a miracle, and unlike you guys I have Thanksgiving dinner every single day. Because I don't take it for granted.
And what I see more and more everyday - is exactly what driven me away from USSR.
(like on surfing forum bringing Ayn Rand literally from nowhere and calling her names - and yeah Bill I think you forgot "feckless" in front of "idiot" - this would be more in tune with the times, mob will like it, and they will laugh, oh how funny!)
I do see the trend and unlike you guys I saw your future. You don't know what you asking for, I saw it with my own eyes.
I just have some experience that you don't , that s all. In fact I have incomparably more experience than you. Not a good one, but it "enriches" me :)
I am financially independent, practically retired (oh I forgot to say that when I arrived I had couple thousand dollars and my son had a broken leg in the cast with obviously no insurance)
Do I have to list my education level for you? Suffice to say it is high enough.
I learned SUPing 11 years ago, when it was in the infancy, no lessons, just learned completely by myself - we just bought an oceanfront condo (I guess I am not a total failure ?) and so it happened
Am I am a failure? Perhaps. But this is not for someone who knows nothing about the stranger from the Internet to say. On another hand if he had invested 30 minutes into Atlas Shrugged, he can say anything he wants - personally I will ignore it.
regardless, on the subject - Bill there are only two possible alternatives.
Everything in between somehow gravitates to one of those.
The first option: freedom, individualism, economic prosperity, personal responsibility, choice, pursuit of happiness, ...
option number two: you haven't build it, collectivism, guilt trip for the simple fact of your existence (second person plural), economic misery, no freedom, no choice, and in some cases no toilet paper.
in fact everything in between somehow gravitates to one of those, correlation 100%
like I can give you recent examples - transgender toilets, inclusion, diversity, multiculti, "free stuff", carbon taxes - guess what option those additions gravitate to.
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(https://pistonrobot.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/10-LinkedIn-Hard-Left-Turn-v10.315.jpg)
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I'm guessing that you choose not to understand Eastbound's comment about failure, which is not a personal attack. By Ayn Rand's criteria I am a failure, so is anyone who doesn't achieve the objectivist tenets. I frequently act altruistically, so I'm a fool, being manipulated by the weak. Complete failure.
We're not going to get anywhere debating this. Here's a question for you: Given that president Trump could easily be the hero of an Ayn Rand novel (I'm not sure whether he's John Galt or Howard Roark), what do you think of him sucking up to Putin?
Just to give you a placemarker, it might help to understand that my political views are classically conservative, would be Libertarian if only there weren't so many nuts in that box of crackerjacks. You seem to think I'm a liberal, which would send my liberal friends into hysterical laughter. I would be an ideal candidate for Ayn Rand's views if it weren't for some deep flaws that seem very obvious to me. One of them is the view you repeat, that there are only two possible alternatives. I'm wondering what universe that might be true in. The United States, which you so obviously admire, is built on a foundation that absolutely refutes that.
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now you want me to comment on Trump?
hahahahaha
reminds me how CNN host innocently asked Huckabee in one of the earliest debate to comment on him...
hahahahaha
but notice, just notice - so you choose not to answer my direct Qs but asks yours.
And how subtle, from Ayn Rand to Trump and Putin. wow
the only thing I agree with is: "We're not going to get anywhere debating this"
but here is what I say - I think nothing about Trump and Putin. Because there is nothing there there
Trump is Putin's nightmare - cheap oil, sanctions, strong America, economic boom, strong military, personally unpredictable guy.
Putin was rooting for her - all her emails available, the paths like half a mil for Bill for the hour delivering words of wisdom, or Uranium one are well established, no punishment for wars in Georgia, Ukraine and Crimea - all in his interests, why change it? Withdrawals from defence systems in Eastern Europe - what not to like?? Plus no oil production in North America, so oil prices are going up....
all of those are hard facts, not the spin from TV talking heads, he says, she says....
Last thing. I never met a real altruist who thinks of himself as altruist. Bill, sorry if you think you are an altruist - sorry to pee on your parade, you are not. Of course it is so self flattering to think about ourselves in such a virtuous terms...
And Atlas Shrugged is not about altruism. As I said, leave this "very dangerous philosophy - Objectivism" aside.
Keep the scope to the one you had set yourself: "You haven't build it" and Ayn Rand is a "feckless idiot". Oh you didn't said feckless, just an "idiot".
Ok you never answered why exactly is she an "idiot".
So... feel free to ask any Qs but first clarify in which exactly way she is an "idiot".
See when you choose not to answer, it is an answer in itself - you can't answer, but you dont have a courage to admit your bad.
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“Bill!"
No answer.
"Bill!"
No answer.
"What's gone with that boy, I wonder? You Bill!"
BTW, this book is probably prohibited by now (at least censored), too racist and xenophobic, and not much altruism expressed...
speaking about altruism...
was Henry Ford an altruist? Bill Gates? may be Steve Jobs :) ?... Edison may be :) ?...
endless list - but those are the people who moved civilisation forward...
or a bit closer to Earth... the endodontist another day who had redone my old root canal and that cost me few grand (my dental is through the roof this year), to whom I am eternally grateful, is he is an altruist ?... Or the companies that build the equipment he used, from CT scan that lasted about 10 seconds (only ten!) to the drills and microscopes - those are not totally altruistic. (God forbid if they were!!!)
I mean for 10,000 years is the altruism what moved progress forward ?
Really? not the build in instinct to care for yourself because no one else would?
Like even 100 ... 200 years ago to care for yourself to not to die from the hunger?
or today to care for yourself, because of your kids, retirement and the urgent necessity to buy a new board, a paddle, a sail or skis? because if not you than who??
I mean - altruism is an engine of progress? Really?
and BTW have you ever been on receiving end of this altruism?
I mean certainly there are friends, and acts of kindness and I was lucky to know what it is...
but on systemic level? so, about receiving end.. I was in NY, NY the most progressive and supposedly altruistic place... about 30 years ago..
the single drop of altruism woulda go a very very long way helping me.
The help from all those multiple agencies and societies and charitable foundations that I had received - is absolute zero!
Negative in fact, if you amount the time I had spent contacting those. Plus a doze of humiliation must I say.
The only help I got was from my employer - I worked 12..14 hours a day writing the code, and I was not paid much, because he was not an altruist.
But again I eternally grateful to him.
And whatever I saved went to my immigration lawyer (definitely not an altruist)
Please convince me that altruism is so important and our civilisation wouldn't exist without it.
Please show me, again on systemic level, that altruism has any significant role in the progress.
And then explain why did you call an "idiot" the lady whose only crime/mistake/error was in her philosophy that does not hail this altruism.
This doesn't bode well with conservative / libertarian views? or does it?
because calling her an "idiot" is what started this.
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Alap, you might never get to your answer because in order to do so you would first have to agree on the definition of altruism.
That definiton is somewhat nebulous but we do know that we (most) come into this world "wired" for empathy (and that's a good start). ;D
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yes Bean, definitions are important, but altruism and empathy are very different
As for the fact that "most" are wired in with empathy.... I'd say "no". I'd say "some".
Some are wired quiet opposite. Like remember Borat's reaction when he is told that Pam A is an activist with PETA - "against cruelty towards animals"?
He starts to laugh, "against ??". Some think about Borat character as a satire. Yes there is some satire but mostly not - there are a lot of people like Borat in this part of a planet where he comes from.
Regardless if empathy is wired in, where from the cruelty towards animals comes from? At the very best it is a wash (between wired in for it and wired in with something completely different)
But even if we switch from altruism to empathy - is the empathy was a foundation of survival for the last 10,000 years?
Is it the foundation that created Western Civilisation? I personally don't think so.
And again , the only reason I had started a rebellion - I can't stand Ayn Rand being called an "idiot" , especially by self described conservative. Everyone can disagree with anything, just keep civil.
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...
But even if we switch from altruism to empathy - is the empathy was a foundation of survival for the last 10,000 years?
Is it the foundation that created Western Civilisation? I personally don't think so.
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A recent discovery has determined it is beer that created Western Civilization. Really! (look up Gobekli Tepe)
Beer creates empathy in me. I get all kind and happy. (well I kindof was anyway before too, but it gets better). In UK pubs it makes people hit each other in the face. Ooops, that ruined my line of reasoning. Or maybe they feel the other guy needs a fist in the face. Is that empathy?
I'm happy to have contributed to this important thread.
PS Where I'm from; Laps wear funny hats and herd reindeer. Are you a Lap? They don't need infrastructure to move the herds from island to island. Where was I?
PPS How 'bout them Saildrones, eh? Yesterday I was talking to a person who uses them! How cool is that?
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Ha! I guessed it right!
So after writing that I Googled "Gobekli Tepe beer".
from:
https://www.beervanablog.com/beervana/2017/4/9/which-came-first-bread-or-beer
From the article:
This is extraordinary because it calls into question the accepted sequence of events: first there was agriculture, then settling down, and then the surplus allowed complex culture to arise. But:
Göbekli Tepe calls that conventional wisdom into question. Klaus Schmidt, a German archaeologist who led excavations at the site, argued before he died in 2014 that it might have worked the other way around: The vast labor force needed to build the enclosures pushed people to develop agriculture as a way of providing predictable food—and perhaps drink—for workers.
The site was not where people came to live, but to worship, feast, and drink.
It’s as though Göbekli Tepe were a cathedral and the others local churches; hunter-gatherers might have traveled long distances to meet, worship and help build new monumental structures, sponsoring feasts to display their wealth. “The feasting aspect is the easiest explanation for attracting a labor force to construct the enclosures,” [German archaeologist Jens] Notroff says.
That neolithic hunter-gatherers might devote their time to this enormous endeavor is fascinating on its own; that they would do so for ritual purposes rather than survival make it more so. The recent discovery that they may already have been making beer adds a further element of amazement, but it actually fits in perfectly with the context of the ritual and feasting activities. And here is where we find the first instance of a reason humans might have been drawn to beer-making before breadmaking. The argument goes like this:
Those feasts — and alcohol-induced friendliness — may have enabled hunter-gatherers to bond with larger groups of people in newly emerging villages, fueling the rise of civilization. At work parties, beer may have motivated people to put a little elbow grease into bigger-scale projects such as building ancient monuments.
"Production and consumption of alcoholic beverages is an important factor in feasts facilitating the cohesion of social groups, and in the case of Göbekli Tepe, in organizing collective work," wrote Antiquity paper co-author Oliver Dietrich in an email. Dietrich is an archaeologist for the German Archaeological Institute.
I find this eminently plausible. It's true that food is a more basic need, but that also argues against it as an organizing principle around which humans would do something as arduous as developing agriculture. Privation and want are anathema to the kind of social cohesion, leisure, and surplus energy needed to conduct giant public works projects. If we look later in the historical record, we see that the most energy was always put in service of these religious, transcendental statements (the Pyramids, cathedrals, etc). There are even other examples of neolithic structures--Stonehenge is a prime case. When humans have surplus, they invest it in more abstract desires than merely living another day.
So beer and empathy did create western civilization. Done.
The next question is obviously: Where is Atlantis, dammit?
Maybe the SailDrones can find it.
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PPS How 'bout them Saildrones, eh? Yesterday I was talking to a person who uses them! How cool is that?
Ah geez, c'mon yugi...it's not cool to come in, and change the subject of the conversation. If you really want to start up a conversation about "SailDrones", you should start a new thread on the subject, and let people talk about those there in their own separate discussion place. ;) ;D
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^ You're right. Maybe I need a beer.
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I can always count on a smile from Yugi's posts..... :) :) :)
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It's an opinion Alap, formed from reading (as far as I know) everything she wrote. Not something I need to defend or clarify.
The only reason I would respond to you is if our conversation were either interesting or enjoyable. This is neither. You pull a word out of a paragraph and either pretend not to recognize the context or actually don't, which makes you either manipulative or stupid. I suspect the former but I'm sure you'll extract the later as a personal attack. For example, I said "By Ayn Rand's criteria I am a failure--so is anyone who doesn't achieve the objectivist tenets. I frequently act altruistically, so I'm a fool, being manipulated by the weak. Complete failure." From that, you extract that I claim to be an altruist. Obviously, a manipulation and a clumsy one, though if you like I'll assume you're just dumb.
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fantastic!
I am feeling your altruism seeping out from every word, hahaha,
and lots of Pono too, hahahaha
I have a suggestion - you should change your avatar to deNiro! :) :)
nice talking to you Pono Bill, not that I found it interesting or enjoyable
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Ayn Rand is always a great subject. It is hard not to enjoy reading the books. Amazing story lines on top of an interesting philosophy and world view. I read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged young and still consider them favorites. Mostly because I see her character types popping up all the time. But, there are gaping holes in her philosophy and Donald Trump is neither Roark nor Galt. Rand's selfishness did not rely on gaming the system, not paying bills, constant bankruptcies, driving down the less fortunate, lying, fostering societal hatreds, etc. It was based on Motive Power, individual drive and creation. Highest Moral Value stuff. Trump has some attributes of her selfishness, adds many others that would be intolerable to Rand and lacks the critical ones that made it a cool philosophy. Rand's selfishness would not work if adopted by everyone but Trump's Selfishness can only support a very few and only works if there are others who play by the rules.
...and SailDrones are cool...
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aspire to kindness empathy altruism collectivism generosity??
that's easy. go here: https://www.gofundme.com/5teiafs#search/nyoutdoor%40gmail.com
i aspire to all that stuff--mostly fail cuz im an ahole--but i try
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It's irritating to admit that this conversation (?) made me realize how long ago it was that I read these books (more than 40 years for some) and so I've bought four to reread. At least that means I have something interesting to read. I was starting to run low on ideas--I've been toiling away at some mathematics that might help me understand the current work on quantum gravity, and it's not fun. I'm starting with We the Living, then Anthem, Fountainhead and then Atlas Shrugged. We'll see if that whets my appetite to continue with the non-fiction. The Virtue of Selfishness pissed me off the first time I read it. I don't look to metaphysics for anything, certainly not a personal philosophy.
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i will be curious to learn how your take now might differ from that of 40 yrs ago, based on wisdom or whatever, but also of course including consideration of the inevitable recrafting of your memory you likely engaged over the 40 years--a powerful phenom
like speaking with my mom about troubled times in my youth---completely different memories of the causes responses etc---as tho there is no reality after several years have passed.....
i read ass shrug only 10 years ago
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and saildrones are cool--til someone programs one to recognize and take out sup's in the lineup!
of course we have our programmers too...........
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The virtue of selfishness does have it's place. For instance, putting on your own oxygen mask before asisitng others...
SailDrones will be even more intimidating when they switch from sails to foils and solar. ;D
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hey Admin, long time,
with your first name it would be strange if you would not like Ayn Rand :)
on serious note, we mostly on the same page, although I am less interested in philosophy and more in depiction of reality.
It is considered an anti utopia, but to me it is very realistic book. Those long passages (like 80 pages) is real depiction of socialism, no matter where and when (those stupid russki, who didn't know how to do it and spoiled it, or nazi germany, or cuba, chilie, venesuela, eastern europe, china, or korea or veitnam...). And I saw it with my own eyes (although I was lucky to be born in 54, one year after Stalin death, so what I see were a sunset years, when everything was rotten already, not the worst ones. And yeah I been in Eastern Europe, a paradise compared to USSR, but still a big shithole, and also heard real story from the guy who been in N.Korea, it was difficult to comprehend even for me). Written by extremely smart talented lady!
what I do not understand is why bring Trump into discussion? to me it is strange. Everything is now related to Trump?
Especially we were criticised by some by discussing Ayn Rand (a writer or /and philosopher) on Saildrones topic (and it was not me who brought her !! - although I agree it was me who called out this "idiot" comment but this is only because I am dumb and / or manipulative, and yes calling an opponent names has nothing to do with personal attack. Of course! Some are more equal than others...)
but since you did....
Trump didn't run against the Ayn Rand's characters. So not sure why to compare.
Voters had to choose.
First he run against Jeb, the brother of W, you know the nukular guy, who looked Putin into his ass and saw a KGB eyes that couldn't lie, the guy who coined the meme about "religion of peace", literally next day after 9/11, on 9/12
Then he run against the Hil, not entirely an altruist or a role model for honesty and principle. Sure, she didn't file a bankruptcy even once, but did she produce or create anything?
And yes, SailDrones rule!
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but since you did....
Trump didn't run against the Ayn Rand's characters. So not sure why to compare.
Voters had to choose.
First he run against Jeb, the brother of W, you know the nukular guy, who looked Putin into his ass and saw a KGB eyes that couldn't lie, the guy who coined the meme about "religion of peace", literally next day after 9/11, on 9/12
Then he run against the Hil, not entirely an altruist or a role model for honesty and principle. Sure, she didn't file a bankruptcy even once, but did she produce or create anything?
Does this help answer your question?.....
The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting.
Trump wasn't the first, he's just not shy about bringing that to our full attention now....which has some stunned, panicked, and screaming about it for the first time. :)