Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => SUP General => Topic started by: photofr on May 21, 2018, 01:19:45 AM
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Sharing Strategies
Stand Up Paddleboarding is very much its own sport, but I believe we can all benefit from other sports that have been around for decades.
I actually love SUP, and I can see myself paddling a SUP for many years to come. However, here are issues that I think we can easily overcome.
NARROWER
This is an easy one: a little more glide would be nice. We should go narrower, and then fix stability issues. A narrower board would also mean a narrower stroke.
STABILITY – LOWER YOUR CENTER OF GRAVITY
Once we go narrower, boards tend to become rather instable. An easy fix from the World of surfskis is to completely lower your gravity, by standing merely 1.2 cm from the bottom of the hull, instead of the current 7cm. This would make us stand below water level, but will add a tremendous amount of stability to our boards – thus allowing us to go quite narrow. Since our feet will be below water level, we’ll have to fix another issue: water getting in the board, and draining that water with efficiency. We’ll have to add a scupper (drain hole) with a manual latch.
This is an interesting aspect, because by lowering your center of gravity, you go through the wind better (just like a bike you might say) – but it also allows you to use a smaller paddler (lighter, and therefore more maneuverable).
DRAIN HOLE
The newer drains in surfskis work so well! We could add a rider operated drain, taken straight out of a surfski if need be. That would allow us to go super narrow, to lower our center of gravity – and all of this without fearing water entering our craft.
LENGTH
This is another issue altogether, but 16 to 18 foot boards would also mean far better glide, more efficiency, and ultimately more speed. Many people have found UL boards to be faster – by a heck of a margin. The ones who haven’t found UL faster were probably using a board in excess of 15 kilos, without a rudder – and taking their boards in side winds for a miserable time. Truth be told, I am a featherweight paddler who have been on a 18+ foot board, with a rudder, with a rounded hull… and the thing seemed to be over 18 kilos. Bottom line, it was a fantastic experience, and I had more fun and more speed than most boards I have tried to date. Truth be told, we need boards to be far lighter in their construction, but strong!
CONSTRUCTION
We are heading in the right direction, especially as the #1 paddle craft builder in the World is now introducing ultra light boards that are very strong, and rigid as can be. This will allow us to take advantage of the surfski construction, and allow SUP paddlers to use UL boards that are very light.
RUDDER
Think what you want about rudders… but first understand this: Olympic kayakers, who, mind you, only travel in a straight line, have found huge advantages when they want with a fixed fin to a rudder. Look again, because today, 100% of Olympic Paddlers paddle with a rudder. Ultimately, rudders will make you faster, and make it safer when winds turn to side wind.
PHOTOS
The FIRST one shows an ultra low standing area – well below the waterline.
The SECOND image shows an overview of the lowered standing area.
The THIRD image shows a surfski drain – 100% foot operated. We could even use this existing one, add padding, and ensure we can quickly open and close it with the flick of a paddle if need be.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-Jun-16-Marc-Pelloquet/i-JHs5FFD/1/8a85aae4/L/NELO-0021-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-Jun-16-Marc-Pelloquet/i-JHs5FFD/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-Jun-16-Marc-Pelloquet/i-ZVpg33f/1/4aa896ae/L/NELO-0018-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-Jun-16-Marc-Pelloquet/i-ZVpg33f/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560M/i-RTDNwmZ/0/a1f16842/L/damien%20%287%29-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560M/i-RTDNwmZ/A)
I hope you guys find this somewhat useful - and willing to try new things. There's no doubt though, that a longer board, that is narrower, having an overall reduced volume, and a standing area below the waterline will be FASTER - especially when equipped with a rudder. Combine it all, and we should get some real fun, amazing glides, and incredible versatility from our SUP.
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So, put simply, you mean stand up canoeing then.... ;D
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The sport would remain the same - it would still be Stand Up Paddling.
The craft would evolve - to be more efficient.
Perhaps I am saying that you ought to try stand up canoeing to get the idea. :)
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The sport would remain the same - it would still be Stand Up Paddling.
The craft would evolve - to be more efficient.
Perhaps I am saying that you ought to try stand up canoeing to get the idea. :)
Yes but you'd then upskill it and kill off the general participation side of the sport altogether. Races would be like C1 with one man and his dog taking part. I'm pro technology more than most but if you increase the skill (and we're heading there already with sub 22 inch width race boards), you demotivate your weekend warriors that make up most of the sport.
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That's the THING though... you don't have to increase the skills of the paddlers in order to obtain while getting:
- a narrower craft
- a more efficient craft
This is because you'd be lowering the standing area by so much (1.5cm from 6 or 7 cm is a huge difference, heck, 0.5 cm would be enormous).
I am not inventing something new - it's already been proven with other sports - like kayaking. It hasn't yet been implemented because manufacturers wanted a simple way to make lots of money with the least amount of work put into their boards.
If anything, I actually see participation as increased - when you factor in more stability / more directional / more versatile craft.
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That's the THING though... you don't have to increase the skills of the paddlers in order to obtain while getting:
- a narrower craft
- a more efficient craft
This is because you'd be lowering the standing area by so much (1.5cm from 6 or 7 cm is a huge difference, heck, 0.5 cm would be enormous).
I am not inventing something new - it's already been proven with other sports - like kayaking. It hasn't yet been implemented because manufacturers wanted a simple way to make lots of money with the least amount of work put into their boards.
If anything, I actually see participation as increased - when you factor in more stability / more directional / more versatile craft.
..... except this would specialise the equipment for each kind of SUP paddling and the market in the main isn't made up of people who want to own or race 4 or 5 boards. Bear in mind this kind of thinking killed off windsurfing and stunted kiteboardings growth.
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Who said anything about "having to own 4 or 5 boards"?
Take a look at surfski then:
Even World Champions use... ONE SINGLE SKI for all conditions.
That's the beauty about having a rudder.
Surfskis can draft well when needed, surf like crazy, or go like a bat out of hell on the dead flat waters.
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I hate this whole direction and hope it dies quickly. Just my opinion but this is standup paddle "boarding". I don't see a board in the picture.
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Who said anything about "having to own 4 or 5 boards"?
Take a look at surfski then:
Even World Champions use... ONE SINGLE SKI for all conditions.
That's the beauty about having a rudder.
Surfskis can draft well when needed, surf like crazy, or go like a bat out of hell on the dead flat waters.
Not true. Some competitive surf skiers would use something like an Epic V14 on the flat but a V12 on surf. Plus surfski's don't have dedicated multi discipline races like we do. We have flatwater, technical and ocean races. They don't.
To give you a better example, I'm a reasonably competitive cyclist. I own around 8 or 9 bikes for a variety of races that I might do. I can't any one of them for all of the kinds of races I do if I'm looking for my best performance. As a result, you don't want SUP catered for guys like me. It will kill it.
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You are right UKGM - but only if you mention the odd ball surfski paddlers.
ONE SKI
Almost everyone I know uses a single ski for ALL their races.
Jasper Mocke, Oscar Challupsky, Sean Rice, Michael Booth, etc...
LOTS OF BIKES
I totally agree - I always paddled a single ski, but used several bikes. SUP doesn't have to be that way, and surfski paddling most certainly doesn't have to be like bikes.
MULTI DISCIPLINES FOR SURFSKIS
On almost any given surfski race, you have to be ready to:
- enter and/or exit the surf zone
- side wind
- head wind
- downwind
- dead flat water
One ski will do it all and/or excel at any one of these.
If someone owns a V14 and a V12 - and they paddle their V12 on a rough day - it's not because the V14 can't handle it, but it's most often due to the paddler's lack of abilities - unless the company forces you to ride the new V12 for show.
Either way, World paddlers who have access to any ski they want will systematically still to a single ski - so I don't see the argument there.
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I hate this whole direction and hope it dies quickly. Just my opinion but this is standup paddle "boarding". I don't see a board in the picture.
You can't call an ACE board - but it is in fact a stand up paddle board.
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Yes, ukgm is right.
If you want SUP racing to be popular (and heaven only knows why you’d want that, but that’s another matter altogether...) then you should look at the wants and needs of the many not the few. You guys are the few not the many so what you want is probably wrong.
The N1SCO type events are probably more the way it should be heading, if participation is your goal.
And race events that are “events”, with racing just one small part that can be ignored by most (and probably will be).
The last thing you want is weird-looking expensive specialised craft and intimidating athletes who the general population can’t identify with, and 10,000 hrs of practice before you can do it.
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I hate this whole direction and hope it dies quickly. Just my opinion but this is standup paddle "boarding". I don't see a board in the picture.
You can't call an ACE board - but it is in fact a stand up paddle board.
No it isn’t. It might be called one but it isn’t. There’s no reason to use an Ace unless you are a racer. There are much nicer and more versatile boards to use.
If you want to paddle a canoe then for heaven’s sakes do it properly and sit down.
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Let's keep an open mind:
Looking at a 10 kilos SUP 16x25 with a recessed deck below water level, with a rudder - that can be used in any and all conditions wouldn't appeal to recreational paddlers???
Keep in mind, the above specs would make that board more stable than a 12x28.
Note: I am not even talking about SUP racing - nor have I said anything about SUP racing.
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I hate this whole direction and hope it dies quickly. Just my opinion but this is standup paddle "boarding". I don't see a board in the picture.
You can't call an ACE board - but it is in fact a stand up paddle board.
No it isn’t. It might be called one but it isn’t. There’s no reason to use an Ace unless you are a racer. There are much nicer and more versatile boards to use.
If you want to paddle a canoe then for heaven’s sakes do it properly and sit down.
What makes you think that only a racer would own a 14x25 Ace?
Downwind FUN, anyone, any ONE?
The ACE GT, as heavy as it was, was in fact a super versatile board - fishing, camping, photography, downwind, cruising, intro to the sport (none of which have anything to do with racing) - and that thing was the furthest thing from a conventional BOARD.
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@ AREA:
What about one of your favorite SUP?
You are not going to call is a board?
Yes, I am in fact referring to your K15.
Take the K15 direction and just make it better... that's all I am saying here. When you come up with something that will work across the board in terms of versatility, I believe you will have a winner for the sport. Racing, in my opinion, isn't the future of Stand Up Paddling.
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@ AREA:
What about one of your favorite SUP?
You are not going to call is a board?
Yes, I am in fact referring to your K15.
Take the K15 direction and just make it better... that's all I am saying here. When you come up with something that will work across the board in terms of versatility, I believe you will have a winner for the sport. Racing, in my opinion, isn't the future of Stand Up Paddling.
I have owned a K15. Sold it. Have owned an Ace. Gave it to a friend. I now have 18 boards. No dugouts.
That speaks for itself.
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Is this thread about standing up in surf ski’s or about Sharing Strategies from other Sports?
Windsurfing, kitesurfing, skiing, and mountain biking all saw lots of very specialised designs for the polarised spectrums of pure speed racing and the fun/freeride aspect. Then emerged a nicely versatile middle ground where the equipment was pretty useful for most conditions and activities. This is the kind of gear I like for all those sports and SUP included. I also believe this is the area where gear in these sports evolves the most and sells the most. Because it focuses on useful and fun.
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@ AREA
No board for you... I mean: "No fake boards for you"
:)
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Personally, one of the aspects I enjoy the most in SUP is moving around on the board.
Personally, I am not interested in this current new fad of boards which are designed so you stay stuck in one place. Dugouts and rudders.
Time will tell but I’ll place my bet on the future of SUP with simple, versatile shapes that favor being used by nimble and mobile footed riders. And aesthetic simple practical beauty.
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Is this thread about standing up in surf ski’s or about Sharing Strategies from other Sports?
Windsurfing, kitesurfing, skiing, and mountain biking all saw lots of very specialised designs for the polarised spectrums of pure speed racing and the fun/freeride aspect. Then emerged a nicely versatile middle ground where the equipment was pretty useful for most conditions and activities. This is the kind of gear I like for all those sports and SUP included. I also believe this is the area where gear in these sports evolves the most and sells the most. Because it focuses on useful and fun.
^This.
It's the middle ground and the masses that saves a sport. As I say, if the sport caters for clowns like me, it'll tank fast. I can list a long list of sports that created more specialized forms of equipment for different events and it never ended well. If you want the big participation numbers, if you let guys like me turn up with a range of boards on the roof and a trunk full of science people will leave in a stampede. Mountain biking is collapsing due to this, kiteboarding the same and windsurfing is gone. This is why one design racing really took off in sailing in the 1980's.
(It's funny as I'm having the exact same discussion on a cycling racing forum as I write this with exactly the same concerns.)
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Personally, one of the aspects I enjoy the most in SUP is moving around on the board.
Personally, I am not interested in this current new fad of boards which are designed so you stay stuck in one place. Dugouts and rudders.
Time will tell but I’ll place my bet on the future of SUP with simple, versatile shapes that favor being used by nimble and mobile footed riders. And aesthetic simple practical beauty.
Yes. Most people just want one SUP. Unless they are racers, that SUP being a deep dugout makes little sense. Dugouts catch wind and chop. They are a pain to carry and transport. They are almost impossible for many people to get back into after a fall - to the point in some cases and scenarios where it is dangerous. They look like canoes, and people standing in them look like amputees (with no offence meant to amputees - I mean it looks different).
On the other hand, a SUP that looks, basically, like a big surf gun can be a thing of great beauty, and be highly versatile and easy to use. Cheaper and easier to own/carry/transport too.
And you could have sex on one. Good luck having sex in an Ace :)
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I hate this whole direction and hope it dies quickly. Just my opinion but this is standup paddle "boarding". I don't see a board in the picture.
You can't call an ACE board - but it is in fact a stand up paddle board.
No it isn’t. It might be called one but it isn’t. There’s no reason to use an Ace unless you are a racer. There are much nicer and more versatile boards to use.
If you want to paddle a canoe then for heaven’s sakes do it properly and sit down.
What makes you think that only a racer would own a 14x25 Ace?
Downwind FUN, anyone, any ONE?
The ACE GT, as heavy as it was, was in fact a super versatile board - fishing, camping, photography, downwind, cruising, intro to the sport (none of which have anything to do with racing) - and that thing was the furthest thing from a conventional BOARD.
If you want FUN downwind (rather than speed at any cost) then a traditional downwind BOARD delivers much more. Up to about 15-20 knots an Ace could be more fun but after than they just get too skittish and hard to control for 95% of recreational paddlers. And getting back into an Ace in big winds and swell is a bloody nightmare. Literally, sometimes.
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And you could have sex on one. Good luck having sex in an Ace :)
I consider myself a moderately experienced paddle boarder, but that's something I've yet to try. Will have to talk with the wife about this ;D
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Mountain biking is collapsing due to this, kiteboarding the same and windsurfing is gone. This is why one design racing really took off in sailing in the 1980's.
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:o
huh?
Mountain biking is heaving. You need to go to some mountains and have a look.
Kiteboarding and windsurfing have merely settled into areas that are good for practicing it. The new equipment is very cool.
One design racing is always where it is at. I found it pretty cool that for the (2013) 34th America's Cup Oracle had the Finn and Laser world champions for strategy and tactics decision making.
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On the other hand, a SUP that looks, basically, like a big surf gun can be a thing of great beauty, and be highly versatile and easy to use. Cheaper and easier to own/carry/transport too.
And you could have sex on one. Good luck having sex in an Ace :)
This is awesome Area :D 110% agreed. Brilliant!!!
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Mountain biking is collapsing due to this, kiteboarding the same and windsurfing is gone. This is why one design racing really took off in sailing in the 1980's.
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:o
huh?
Mountain biking is heaving. You need to go to some mountains and have a look.
Kiteboarding and windsurfing have merely settled into areas that are good for practicing it. The new equipment is very cool.
One design racing is always where it is at. I found it pretty cool that for the (2013) 34th America's Cup Oracle had the Finn and Laser world champions for strategy and tactics decision making.
Not riding- I meant MTB racing has been plummeting for a decade (particulary XC). I ride at national level so I know what cyclesport is doing. The growth is in enduro's and mass participation events, not XC racing and downhill.
Steve West's book covers Windsurfing's fall from grace nicely.
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^understood
Yes, pure XC racing is pretty invisible unless you participate in it. Mtn bikers hardly think of that as mtn biking.
I like the Mtb enduro racing format. It develops cool useful bikes and attracts good talent. Ski resorts continue to develop really cool trails and are vastly increasing their summer business. The young guns downhilling are going off the charts. Just insane. We have these little groms all around us just flying downhill. Plenty of new blood in that sport. It's heaving.
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Personally, one of the aspects I enjoy the most in SUP is moving around on the board.
Personally, I am not interested in this current new fad of boards which are designed so you stay stuck in one place. Dugouts and rudders.
Time will tell but I’ll place my bet on the future of SUP with simple, versatile shapes that favor being used by nimble and mobile footed riders. And aesthetic simple practical beauty.
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And you could have sex on one. Good luck having sex in an Ace :)
AREA should get the "Forum Award" for this one.
However, in the future, he may want to look at this... - much for suited for extra-curriculum-activities.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/Other/Memories/i-btgtXKz/0/a431f787/L/19511539_475507019480733_8882342443051327941_n-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/Other/Memories/i-btgtXKz/A)
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Mountain biking is collapsing due to this, kiteboarding the same and windsurfing is gone. This is why one design racing really took off in sailing in the 1980's.
...
:o
huh?
Mountain biking is heaving. You need to go to some mountains and have a look.
Kiteboarding and windsurfing have merely settled into areas that are good for practicing it. The new equipment is very cool.
One design racing is always where it is at. I found it pretty cool that for the (2013) 34th America's Cup Oracle had the Finn and Laser world champions for strategy and tactics decision making.
Not riding- I meant MTB racing has been plummeting for a decade (particulary XC). I ride at national level so I know what cyclesport is doing. The growth is in enduro's and mass participation events, not XC racing and downhill.
Steve West's book covers Windsurfing's fall from grace nicely.
So, learning from other sports yet?
I know I sure have.
MTB
I also see mountain biking as a great sport, with a great number of participants. Easy access to just about anyone may have a lot to do with it. The XC Racing scene? Declining!
FLAT WATER MARATHON
This is a somewhat boring sport in my eyes that I used to teach. It's fantastic for working on your technique, and helps tremendously surfski paddlers. The Marathon Racing scene? Nearly non-existent. Last weekend was a disaster: with just a handful of French paddlers trying to get on the French team. What a sad day! Meanwhile, they have ONLY ONE TYPE of craft.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Vaires-sur-Marnes-K1-Selection/i-tPfg9zf/0/96888aec/L/vaires-sur-marnes-008-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Vaires-sur-Marnes-K1-Selection/i-tPfg9zf/A)
SUP LONG DISTANCE
SUP as a sport is still booming - but the racing scene is taking a total slap.
The only thing I see in common is that humans are getting weaker - and they all want instant gratification. That long distance stuff may seem too much work for the newer generation. Heck, walking 5k to school barefoot may be too much for any kids these days, especially in Winter. (okay, the last part was a joke)
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Maybe you could add in more of the surfing strategy into this line of thought. After all, surfing is at the root of SUP. The less "surfable" a craft is designed, the further from SUP it is.
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So correct me if I am wrong...
1. You guys wish that all SUP boards look like boards (surfboards to be exact) because that's the image you want to portrait.
2. You don't mind an oversimplification of the board in terms of construction methods.
3. You don't mind that this oversimplification (as a whole) is costing much more than it should.
4. You don't want SUP to be elitist, even though it already has a long time ago. There are more 21 and 22" boards out there than ever.
5. If you want to have fun with an intermediate-level board (like a 14x25") you end up with a board primarily designed for a top athlete; one who can make the thing come to a semi-plane.
6. Seemingly, few who have commented actually have tried a SUP with their feet below the waterline - because you'd otherwise be commenting and sharing. The ACE has nothing below the water level - so don't kid yourself.
7. I am talking about a more accessible SUP, more affordable, more versatile (especially on those windy days) - and as a whole: more stable - but you guys don't see the benefit for the mass?
So go ahead with the corrections. I am all ears.
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And you could have sex on one. Good luck having sex in an Ace :)
I consider myself a moderately experienced paddle boarder, but that's something I've yet to try. Will have to talk with the wife about this ;D
Do it! You haven’t fully explored the delights of SUP until you have. She’ll love you for it. Just paddle off to a deserted spot and off ya go. There are various methods, depending on water depth. Eat your heart out, SUP yoga :) But you might find when it’s all over that you’ve moved quite a bit from where you started :)
You’ll never view a dugout the same afterwards. Dugouts are clearly for people who don’t get much ;)
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photo - this has been a long time topic of discussion, both here on the Zone and elsewhere. Often it is driven by this article by Jim Terrell http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/
You fall into the "stand-up canoeing" camp. Not that there is anything wrong with it ;) . It's just not for me
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So correct me if I am wrong...
1. You guys wish that all SUP boards look like boards (surfboards to be exact) because that's the image you want to portrait.
2. You don't mind an oversimplification of the board in terms of construction methods.
3. You don't mind that this oversimplification (as a whole) is costing much more than it should.
4. You don't want SUP to be elitist, even though it already has a long time ago. There are more 21 and 22" boards out there than ever.
5. If you want to have fun with an intermediate-level board (like a 14x25") you end up with a board primarily designed for a top athlete; one who can make the thing come to a semi-plane.
6. Seemingly, few who have commented actually have tried a SUP with their feet below the waterline - because you'd otherwise be commenting and sharing. The ACE has nothing below the water level - so don't kid yourself.
7. I am talking about a more accessible SUP, more affordable, more versatile (especially on those windy days) - and as a whole: more stable - but you guys don't see the benefit for the mass?
So go ahead with the corrections. I am all ears.
1. No, I just believe that the needs of the competitive sport trump those of the needs of the racing individual. For recreational paddling though, go nuts, paddle what you like.
2. I'm only interested in performance. How its manufactured is irrelevant to me.
3. Cost doesn't bother me whilst I wish to be competitive. It will bother the sport as a whole when its market gets priced out.
4. It became elitist when the cost of race boards increased by 40%, not the width decrease over the last two years
5. Possibly. That's the risk when its elite athletes doing the R&D.
6. I'm less bothered about what the craft looks like. I'm here to race.... that's it.
7. You haven't defined how it would be either more affordable or more accessible. Please explain further ?
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So correct me if I am wrong...
1. You guys wish that all SUP boards look like boards (surfboards to be exact) because that's the image you want to portrait.
2. You don't mind an oversimplification of the board in terms of construction methods.
3. You don't mind that this oversimplification (as a whole) is costing much more than it should.
4. You don't want SUP to be elitist, even though it already has a long time ago. There are more 21 and 22" boards out there than ever.
5. If you want to have fun with an intermediate-level board (like a 14x25") you end up with a board primarily designed for a top athlete; one who can make the thing come to a semi-plane.
6. Seemingly, few who have commented actually have tried a SUP with their feet below the waterline - because you'd otherwise be commenting and sharing. The ACE has nothing below the water level - so don't kid yourself.
7. I am talking about a more accessible SUP, more affordable, more versatile (especially on those windy days) - and as a whole: more stable - but you guys don't see the benefit for the mass?
So go ahead with the corrections. I am all ears.
1. no. Personally I’m open to new ideas. Your standing surfski idea’s just aren’t doing it for me. Yet. I am noticing that the top 5 of every race this year are in dugouts. I’m also pretty sure I’ll race less this year and, as always, DW more.
2. Your term oversimplification is vague. Simple is good. Especially when it comes to design, manufacturing and maintenance. Monocoque (hollow) can be simple and good too.
3. no. Nothing should cost more than it should.
4. There is a racing speciality branch. We recognise that. Maybe most aren’t all that keen on it other than the odd race for a good time and to meet new friends.
5. You aren’t making sense. Do you mean an intermediate board or an allwater board made for top guys?
6. I have tried a couple of narrowish 14 dugouts’s.
- On flat I’d much rather be on a flattop.
- In waves I feel like a pinball bouncing around in a pinball machine. I prefer to carve than slither.
- In sidewind I find them really horrible.
My motto is to pick my gear for the hardest part of the day. I get sidewind thrown at me all the time. A board I can keep my bearing in sidewind is the acid test to me. So far I find dugouts a nightmare. Maybe I have yet to learn something, maybe designs will change. We’ll see.
7. I’m all for more accessible , more affordable, more versatile (especially on those windy days). What this has to do with your musings I can’t really tell.
I keep an open mind to dugouts. I’ll keep trying. I do notice that they are the trend in races. I do know Titou used to much prefer an Allstar to an Ace for all the reasons I do )we had a talk about it). I do notice he is way dugout now. So I know there must be something to it.
On the other hand I know in new sports like SUP the design/shape pendulum swings way far on new fads and then usually comes back and settles in the middle. I’m going to sit this swing out and wait and see if it ever comes back. I’ll try them and try see the upsides. But right now I am not seeing nirvana. Yet.
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And you could have sex on one. Good luck having sex in an Ace :)
I consider myself a moderately experienced paddle boarder, but that's something I've yet to try. Will have to talk with the wife about this ;D
Do it! You haven’t fully explored the delights of SUP until you have. She’ll love you for it. Just paddle off to a deserted spot and off ya go. There are various methods, depending on water depth. Eat your heart out, SUP yoga :) But you might find when it’s all over that you’ve moved quite a bit from where you started :)
You’ll never view a dugout the same afterwards. Dugouts are clearly for people who don’t get much ;)
This topic is also covered in the separate "Foiling with straps - How to" thread.
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And you could have sex on one. Good luck having sex in an Ace :)
I consider myself a moderately experienced paddle boarder, but that's something I've yet to try. Will have to talk with the wife about this ;D
Do it! You haven’t fully explored the delights of SUP until you have. She’ll love you for it. Just paddle off to a deserted spot and off ya go. There are various methods, depending on water depth. Eat your heart out, SUP yoga :) But you might find when it’s all over that you’ve moved quite a bit from where you started :)
You’ll never view a dugout the same afterwards. Dugouts are clearly for people who don’t get much ;)
Area 10, you crack me up. Absolutely hilarious! :)
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But you might find when it’s all over that you’ve moved quite a bit from where you started :)
Are you saying here she might finally feel the earth move? ;D
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And you could have sex on one. Good luck having sex in an Ace :)
I consider myself a moderately experienced paddle boarder, but that's something I've yet to try. Will have to talk with the wife about this ;D
Do it! You haven’t fully explored the delights of SUP until you have. She’ll love you for it. Just paddle off to a deserted spot and off ya go. There are various methods, depending on water depth. Eat your heart out, SUP yoga :) But you might find when it’s all over that you’ve moved quite a bit from where you started :)
You’ll never view a dugout the same afterwards. Dugouts are clearly for people who don’t get much ;)
Area 10, you crack me up. Absolutely hilarious! :)
Area 10, where's the love and I'm hurt from your funny comments :o ;D
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Let's keep an open mind:
Looking at a 10 kilos SUP 16x25 with a recessed deck below water level, with a rudder - that can be used in any and all conditions wouldn't appeal to recreational paddlers???
Keep in mind, the above specs would make that board more stable than a 12x28.
Note: I am not even talking about SUP racing - nor have I said anything about SUP racing.
Where my mind went with this also wasn't about racing, but instead to how what you describe might be a perfect next board for me--for daily use, not racing. Longer than 14' is a no-brainer, since I wouldn't be racing it, and don't have storage or transport issues. Low deck makes sense for stability, and drain hole makes sense for a low deck. Haven't used a rudder, but have been told I'd appreciate having one in some conditions. Light weight isn't critical to me--nice but not worth $$$ or compromised durability.
Mostly, I don't think I'm the only one who's had a few 14' boards, and is happy with them, and not really interested in spending money on a slight refinement, whereas I could be convinced to spend some money on a board whose extra 2' or 3' would be a major change from what I already have.
It could be more likely my next "board" will be a surfski, but if it's actually a board, something like what you describe sounds great.
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Personally, one of the aspects I enjoy the most in SUP is moving around on the board.
Personally, I am not interested in this current new fad of boards which are designed so you stay stuck in one place. Dugouts and rudders.
Time will tell but I’ll place my bet on the future of SUP with simple, versatile shapes that favor being used by nimble and mobile footed riders. And aesthetic simple practical beauty.
...
And you could have sex on one. Good luck having sex in an Ace :)
AREA should get the "Forum Award" for this one.
However, in the future, he may want to look at this... - much for suited for extra-curriculum-activities.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/Other/Memories/i-btgtXKz/0/a431f787/L/19511539_475507019480733_8882342443051327941_n-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/Other/Memories/i-btgtXKz/A)
That arm out to the side would be a handy place for keeping the cigarettes dry.
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I have to say that if I weren't racing and was paddling for fun, conditioning and fitness, I'd go and buy one of the latest inflatables. I'd praise the convenience and practicality over the nuances of the boards ride qualities. I feel so ashamed............
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I have to say that if I weren't racing and was paddling for fun, conditioning and fitness, I'd go and buy one of the latest inflatables. I'd praise the convenience and practicality over the nuances of the boards ride qualities. I feel so ashamed............
Only because your paddling is centred on “the boring stuff”. If you downwinded, surfed, or were a coastal paddler you’d find that an inflatable would kill all enjoyment STAT. If that’s the kind of punishment you enjoy, you might as well just just stay at home and dangle your goolies in a pan of boiling water.
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If you downwinded, surfed, or were a coastal paddler you’d find that an inflatable would kill all enjoyment STAT. If that’s the kind of punishment you enjoy, you might as well just just stay at home and dangle your goolies in a pan of boiling water.
If the extent of you paddling is lakes, bays, harbors then an inflatable is perfectly fine.
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If you downwinded, surfed, or were a coastal paddler you’d find that an inflatable would kill all enjoyment STAT. If that’s the kind of punishment you enjoy, you might as well just just stay at home and dangle your goolies in a pan of boiling water.
If the extent of you paddling is lakes, bays, harbors then an inflatable is perfectly fine.
*Protected* lakes, bays, harbors... and as long as you aren’t going further offshore than you can swim, and/or the water isn’t so cold that you’d die before you were rescued... otherwise basically you are betting your life on one tiny little O ring in a cheap plastic valve.
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^ I've bet my life on more then that and the pacha mama hasn't claimed me yet.
In a typical "whoops - maybe I should have thought that through a bit better" moment I took a narrow dugout in over 30 kn winds, 20 mile DW, in what turned out to be nasty crossed up conditions. At least I can comfortably say that I'm pretty much an expert at getting back in those f*ckers in really tricky conditions. I must have crawled back in to it about 3000 times. So at least I have that part well practiced.
And, yes, it does suck.
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^ I've bet my life on more then that and the pacha mama hasn't claimed me yet.
In a typical "whoops - maybe I should have thought that through a bit better" moment I took a narrow dugout in over 30 kn winds, 20 mile DW, in what turned out to be nasty crossed up conditions. At least I can comfortably say that I'm pretty much an expert at getting back in those f*ckers in really tricky conditions. I must have crawled back in to it about 3000 times. So at least I have that part well practiced.
And, yes, it does suck.
20 miles would be a long downwinder even if you were on a suitable board. That’s pretty extraordinary - you must be made of tough stuff.
It’s an awful feeling when you realise on a strong and long downwinder that you’ve brought a knife to a gunfight. You can’t stop, or go back. So you just have to endure the pain and shame. And when that happens, you never really forgive the board that did it to you.
Even quite minor raised lips around a slightly sunken deck can become a big irritant if you start falling a lot. It’s so easy to trap a finger, bang a knee or crack your paddle etc unless the deck is dead flat.
Flatwater boards = sunken deck (if you must).
Roughwater/downwind boards = flat deck.
It’s the law. Or should be :)
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This was a near-perfect experience on a SUP - using my 17'6 x 23"
We had so much fun!!!
- Not racing
- Just good times amongst friends
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-hHCQN7r/0/3f429cad/L/Screen%20Shot%202015-06-17%20at%207.56.44%20PM-L.png) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-hHCQN7r/A)
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Make what you want of it, but note:
- We were both on sunken decks
- He had a rudder / I didn't
- Garmin only gives you the wind speed as you are heading out - the way back was blowing 15 to 20 knots.
- We had a total blast
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If you downwinded, surfed, or were a coastal paddler you’d find that an inflatable would kill all enjoyment STAT. If that’s the kind of punishment you enjoy, you might as well just just stay at home and dangle your goolies in a pan of boiling water.
If the extent of you paddling is lakes, bays, harbors then an inflatable is perfectly fine.
And far better than having to "dangle your goolies in a pan of boiling water" as the other alternative. ;) ;D
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Make what you want of it, but note:
- We were both on sunken decks
- He had a rudder / I didn't
- Garmin only gives you the wind speed as you are heading out - the way back was blowing 15 to 20 knots.
- We had a total blast
Yeah in a mild breeze like that, especially inland, a board like that can be fun.
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I have to say that if I weren't racing and was paddling for fun, conditioning and fitness, I'd go and buy one of the latest inflatables. I'd praise the convenience and practicality over the nuances of the boards ride qualities. I feel so ashamed............
No reason for shame, although racing will keep you in much better shape than spending time on inflatables. I don't have one, but lots of people do, for the convenience and practicality, just as you say. I've heard the ride qualities of the newest models are almost lifelike.
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I know a guy who keeps two in his car just so he can use the HOV lanes...
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So correct me if I am wrong...
1. You guys wish that all SUP boards look like boards (surfboards to be exact) because that's the image you want to portrait.
2. You don't mind an oversimplification of the board in terms of construction methods.
3. You don't mind that this oversimplification (as a whole) is costing much more than it should.
4. You don't want SUP to be elitist, even though it already has a long time ago. There are more 21 and 22" boards out there than ever.
5. If you want to have fun with an intermediate-level board (like a 14x25") you end up with a board primarily designed for a top athlete; one who can make the thing come to a semi-plane.
6. Seemingly, few who have commented actually have tried a SUP with their feet below the waterline - because you'd otherwise be commenting and sharing. The ACE has nothing below the water level - so don't kid yourself.
7. I am talking about a more accessible SUP, more affordable, more versatile (especially on those windy days) - and as a whole: more stable - but you guys don't see the benefit for the mass?
So go ahead with the corrections. I am all ears.
7. You haven't defined how it would be either more affordable or more accessible. Please explain further ?
MY VIEWS on #7
More accessible:
- Because SUP boards can be lighter when made from a Mold.
- Because SUP boards with a very low standing area would be more stable.
- Because a rudder would invite more people to the sport, and make them feel more “in control” of their boards from the moment they stand up and paddle.
More affordable:
- Because SUP boards made from a Mold will be cheaper. More complex Surfskis from Mold start at about 2500 euros, so we’ll be able to see SUP from a Mold start at about 1900 euros quite SOON – and there’s no doubt in my mind. 1900 euros is a far stretch from the current 3500 euros for a board filled with Styrofoam.
- Because a board made from a Mold will last longer – much longer – thus will be considered more affordable when spread over the years.
More versatile:
- Because of its rudder system. Many people do not paddle when it’s a bit windy, but a rudder will make them want to get out more often on the water.
- Because I am certain that only a single board can be used for flat or downwing – just like in the World of surfskis. We just have to think outside the box.
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So correct me if I am wrong...
1. You guys wish that all SUP boards look like boards (surfboards to be exact) because that's the image you want to portrait.
2. You don't mind an oversimplification of the board in terms of construction methods.
3. You don't mind that this oversimplification (as a whole) is costing much more than it should.
4. You don't want SUP to be elitist, even though it already has a long time ago. There are more 21 and 22" boards out there than ever.
5. If you want to have fun with an intermediate-level board (like a 14x25") you end up with a board primarily designed for a top athlete; one who can make the thing come to a semi-plane.
6. Seemingly, few who have commented actually have tried a SUP with their feet below the waterline - because you'd otherwise be commenting and sharing. The ACE has nothing below the water level - so don't kid yourself.
7. I am talking about a more accessible SUP, more affordable, more versatile (especially on those windy days) - and as a whole: more stable - but you guys don't see the benefit for the mass?
So go ahead with the corrections. I am all ears.
2. Your term oversimplification is vague. Simple is good. Especially when it comes to design, manufacturing and maintenance. Monocoque (hollow) can be simple and good too.
5. You aren’t making sense. Do you mean an intermediate board or an allwater board made for top guys?
6. I have tried a couple of narrowish 14 dugouts’s.
- On flat I’d much rather be on a flattop.
- In waves I feel like a pinball bouncing around in a pinball machine. I prefer to carve than slither.
- In sidewind I find them really horrible.
My motto is to pick my gear for the hardest part of the day. I get sidewind thrown at me all the time. A board I can keep my bearing in sidewind is the acid test to me. So far I find dugouts a nightmare. Maybe I have yet to learn something, maybe designs will change. We’ll see.
7. I’m all for more accessible , more affordable, more versatile (especially on those windy days). What this has to do with your musings I can’t really tell.
I keep an open mind to dugouts. I’ll keep trying. I do notice that they are the trend in races. I do know Titou used to much prefer an Allstar to an Ace for all the reasons I do )we had a talk about it). I do notice he is way dugout now. So I know there must be something to it. …
DETAILS
2. Oversimplification of board design is what I meant. For instance, when a company took a computer to aid its design, and simply cuts off the rear end of a board in a straight line (against the computer’s design (or logic for that matter)) – no less. I am just stunned when I see SUP manufacturers take one shortcut after the other - and then charge us more and more.
It’s outrageous to me that in 2018, most companies are still seeking simple construction methods too:
- Why are we still using Styrofoam?
- Why is everyone so afraid of looking elsewhere / other water crafts?
In the end, I feel we have a cheaply made product that we bought at high prices.
5. What I meant there was:
Let’s say you are an intermediate-level paddler, somewhat middle of the pack… You want a new board adapted for your skill level, and so you go and pick one up. Let’s say it’s a 14x25” board… and WHAT DO YOU GET?
Right now, you are most likely going to get a board designed to go fast ONLY with a top athlete on it.
Current Intermediate-Level boards are not designed for Intermediate paddlers in mind, except for the fact that they are somewhat stable. Intermediate paddlers are not yet benefiting from any board glide – unless said Intermediate paddler has the strength of an elite paddler.
6. Currently-built dugout boards CAN be tippy, shaky, and even shady, so you are right there. A picture is like a 1000 words, but in this case, I wish you had been able to try my friend’s construction.
His board was like 18’ long by 25” (I believe). That thing was made out of plywood, a dugout shape, with a rudder. While there’s always room for improvement on any craft, his board was not at all shaky, or shady… in fact, it was well thought out and designed with care.
That alone may have changed the way you think about dugout boards. Just sayin’
7. Looking at other water crafts may change the way we think – thus making our SUP boards more accessible, more versatile, and more affordable – only when you factor all components – including construction methods.
All in all, I do hope you will keep an open mind to dugouts.
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Personally, one of the aspects I enjoy the most in SUP is moving around on the board.
Personally, I am not interested in this current new fad of boards which are designed so you stay stuck in one place. Dugouts and rudders.
Time will tell but I’ll place my bet on the future of SUP with simple, versatile shapes that favor being used by nimble and mobile footed riders. And aesthetic simple practical beauty.
What makes you think that a dugout board makes you stay STUCK in one place ?
With or without a rudder, long or short board, the body is designed to move around - even on dead-flat water.
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Personally, one of the aspects I enjoy the most in SUP is moving around on the board.
Personally, I am not interested in this current new fad of boards which are designed so you stay stuck in one place. Dugouts and rudders.
Time will tell but I’ll place my bet on the future of SUP with simple, versatile shapes that favor being used by nimble and mobile footed riders. And aesthetic simple practical beauty.
…
Dugouts catch wind and chop.
They are a pain to carry and transport.
They are almost impossible for many people to get back into after a fall …
They look like canoes…
Are you really keeping an open mind?
“Dugouts catch wind and chop. “
But they don’t have to… and that’s my point.
Without the right drainage system, you’ll need high sidewalls (indeed another problem that will catch wind). Put the right drainage and all of the sudden, you don’t need high sidewalls. Surfskis and OC1 used to have high sidewalls too – until people got tired of being tossed around like a butterfly in the wind.
“They are a pain to carry and transport. “
I don’t see that one AT ALL.
In fact, if anything, dugout boards are easier to carry, mainly because you have more ways to carry them. Strangely enough, I see several paddlers in France (mainly on surfskis) who can paddle pretty well, but who haven’t taken 5 minutes to learn “boat handling”. The same can be said with SUP paddlers that struggle handling their boards out of the water. For this one, I’d say: education is key.
“They are almost impossible for many people to get back into after a fall …”
Back to education.
There’s a method, and it works very well with the highest of sidewalls. Factor in the fact that I am talking about less sidewalls, and remounting your board becomes child’s play.
“They look like canoes…”
Yes, they can look like canoes. Heck, some SUP look like surfboards – and that didn’t stop you from liking them, right?! Maybe it’s form before function – maybe it’s just the image that appeals to SUPers more than function.
Reaching for more…
But just imagine what it would be like:
Take your current favorite board, make it more stable, and make it glide like crazy. Now you’d end up with a faster board, with even less effort. Doesn’t that feel like MORE FUN to you?
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I have to say that if I weren't racing and was paddling for fun, conditioning and fitness, I'd go and buy one of the latest inflatables. I'd praise the convenience and practicality over the nuances of the boards ride qualities. I feel so ashamed............
No reason for shame, although racing will keep you in much better shape than spending time on inflatables. I don't have one, but lots of people do, for the convenience and practicality, just as you say. I've heard the ride qualities of the newest models are almost lifelike.
Only in protected flat water.
As I’ve said before, inflatables are (still) truly *awful* for:
1. Surfing.
2. Downwinding.
3. Choppy coastal paddling.
4. Paddling in crosswinds (over 15 knots).
5. Paddling upwind (anything over 15 knots).
6. Serious paddling in harsh environments and/or long way from shore or rescue (psssssst!!!).
And I say this as someone who owns 3 inflatable SUPs, and was the second person ever in my whole country to own one, about 10 years ago (an ULI I imported from the US), long before most people had even heard of inflatable SUPs.
However, what inflatables are good for are the following:
A. Family fun with the kids close to shore.
B. Beginners (hurts less if you collide with one).
C. Urban dwellers in cities who have no other storage option.
D. Protected rivers or lakes.
E. Rocky shores or where long portage is required.
F. Day trips in windless areas close to shore.
G. One-design type inflatable racing like N1SCO, or SUP polo.
H. SUP yoga.
I. Some whitewater applications, perhaps.
Now, list A-I is quite a long list. And since the majority of SUPers are just casual recreational paddlers who live inland and just want to pootle about with the kids etc on sunny days, this means that inflatables will always be very popular.
But if you enjoy the most “exciting” or technically and personally challenging aspects of SUP (see 1-6) and/or are a coastal dweller, especially in windy places, then iSUPs are almost completely useless to you. They make SUPing so hard and unrewarding in the conditions 1-6 that you won’t really want to bother.
So it’s very much a case of “horses for courses”. But don’t let the marketing hype fool you into thinking that the “new constructions” etc mean you can use inflatables in situations 1-6 above. Because you can’t. They STINK for those applications.
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“They look like canoes…”
Yes, they can look like canoes. Heck, some SUP look like surfboards – and that didn’t stop you from liking them, right?! Maybe it’s form before function – maybe it’s just the image that appeals to SUPers more than function.
Well isn't the surfboard how SUP started in the first place? It's the middle ground between surfing and canoeing. You're just leaning towards the canoeing side more now. I have friends who used to race SUP and thought it was too slow so they cut to the chase and crossed over to OC-1 or 6.
And also I enjoy surfing my raceboards on smaller days. Surfing in a dugout is restricting.
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“They look like canoes…”
Yes, they can look like canoes. Heck, some SUP look like surfboards – and that didn’t stop you from liking them, right?! Maybe it’s form before function – maybe it’s just the image that appeals to SUPers more than function.
Well isn't the surfboard how SUP started in the first place? It's the middle ground between surfing and canoeing. You're just leaning towards the canoeing side more now. I have friends who used to race SUP and thought it was too slow so they cut to the chase and crossed over to OC-1 or 6.
And also I enjoy surfing my raceboards on smaller days. Surfing in a dugout is restricting.
Maybe, just maybe we need to have a different look on SUP.
I know first hand what it was like to watch couple of the Beachboys stand on their boards in the surf zone and take photos - and this was in 1980. Heck, that's what inspired me to take photos, surrounded by the elements. HOWEVER, let's get this straight (since you are talking about history).
SUP SURFING
Not once, not a single time... did I see the Beachboys paddle long distance in Open Water. They were always found in the Surf - and really, only one guy was thinking outside the box, but this was SUP SURFING - on a long board mind you.
SUP CRUISING / SUP LONG DISTANCE
That's an entire different sport all together - and I believe that for as long as we threat it like SUP SURFING, we are just shooting ourselves in the foot. It's like wanting to go downhill biking with a road bike - kinda stupid if you ask me, even though a few of us have proven that it's almost possible.
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...
More affordable:
- Because SUP boards made from a Mold will be cheaper. More complex Surfskis from Mold start at about 2500 euros, so we’ll be able to see SUP from a Mold start at about 1900 euros quite SOON – and there’s no doubt in my mind. 1900 euros is a far stretch from the current 3500 euros for a board filled with Styrofoam.
- Because a board made from a Mold will last longer – much longer – thus will be considered more affordable when spread over the years.
...
3D printing, or additive manufacturing, is currently being used for engine parts of the Space-x rocket and planned for the casing of experimental nuclear fusion reactors (MIT LIFT - Laboratory for Innovation in Fusion Technologies).
I reckon we should sometime soon have exciting new ways available to make our boards. Locally and at reduced costs.
Personally I wouldn’t be investing in molds for SUPs for two reasons.
1. the SUP market is small so the shape had better not change for several years to be able to amortize the mold costs. We aren’t there yet.
2. until I had a better view of when the printing technology was available for plastics the sizes of our boards.
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The reference here for distance paddling in relation to SUP should be traditional (prone) paddle boarding, not canoeing.
Distance SUPs have tended to live ok like prone paddleboards for the same reason that prone paddle boards look the way they do. And SUP emerged out of ocean sports just like prone paddle boarding. If you look at a Bark prone paddleboard or a Velzy or a lifeguard rescue paddleboard, and also look at the format of their races you will see craft and races that were (and are) the prototype for SUP races, e.g.:
http://www.surffestival.org/paddle
Indeed, some of the first SUP race champions were prone paddleboarders who stood up (e.g. Jamie Mitchell). And pretty much ALL of the current biggest SUP brands are ocean-based.
Prone paddleboards are not dugouts for obvious reasons - how would you get your arms in the water? But it is more than just that, it is also about ease of coping with tricky conditions, crosswinds, beach starts etc in a simple craft. And the purity and safety of a simple uncluttered deck.
Now that SUP racing is moving inland, the references for inland paddlers may well turn to canoes and kayaks. The formats of the races will be very different, and so the craft may well be too.
So the sensible thing is for the designs for inland paddlers and coastal ones to diverge. You, photofr, are now an inland paddler. So paddle a canoe. But many of us on this forum - maybe even a majority of those who post regularly - are ocean SUPers. Our needs, priorities, and requirements are different. So our boards will look different.
The overall number of people who SUP worldwide is probably far more inland-based than coastal based. But the inland paddlers don’t seem to post on these forums as much, and they don’t run or win races as much. So the most *visible* aspects of SUP are still ocean-based. Maybe this will change in time. But right at this moment the majority of us posting most often here are focussed on (mainly) ocean sports like downwinding and surfing as part of our sport. Relatively few *only* paddle in inland waterways. So that is why when you suggest that we all adopt a craft that looks like a canoe, you meet with some scepticism.
And the surfski/OC thing has been done to death many times already. SUPs that look substantially like surfskis are fast, but pretty much impossible to paddle for most people. Which is why SUPs don’t look like surfskis.
Why don’t we just agree that you should paddle a board that looks like a canoe, because you paddle in places and conditions where canoes are common, and we ocean dwellers should paddle boards that look a lot like traditional paddleboards because we paddle in places and conditions where trad paddleboards are found?
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...Because a board made from a Mold will last longer – much longer –...
Why do you believe that?
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So the sensible thing is for the designs for inland paddlers and coastal ones to diverge. You, photofr, are now an inland paddler. So paddle a canoe. But many of us on this forum - maybe even a majority of those who post regularly - are ocean SUPers. Our needs, priorities, and requirements are different. So our boards will look different.
@AREA
I am fairly certain that I have paddled more miles than you have during 2014, 2015, and 2016 - all in the Ocean, and pretty much every single one of those miles on a dugout board. My believe hasn't changed a bit - they are today the exact same as they were two years ago - WITH THE ALOHA KAI in mind.
This has nothing to do with flat water paddling or me recently moving inland. If flat water paddling would affect it, I would opt for a 19.5" board, dugout all the same - but that's not at all what I am suggesting.
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...Because a board made from a Mold will last longer – much longer –...
Why do you believe that?
I believe this because I have been on crafts from Molds since the early 80's (surfskis) - AND when I compare some of today's top SUP manufacturers with even the worst surfski (from a Mold) the difference leaves you thinking out loud.
Today's SUP is constructed with the worst of foam imaginable (for the environment and for strength).
...But here's the real test:
Take a SUP (any fibreglass or carbon board).
Paddle as you normally do, and let your stroke hit the board 5 times.
Chances are: you'll have at least 4 marks on your board.
Now, take a surfski...
Do the same, but hit your ski 100 times with your paddle.
You'll be "lucky" if you have 2 marks - that, mind you, you will be able to remove with GREAT EASE and make your gelcoat look like new again in no time.
FACTS
Styrofoam doesn't age well.
Styrofoam absorbs water.
Styrofoam isn't used in top ski construction for at least 25 years - for good reasons.
BELIEF
Current SUP need to skim on paint (light layer of car paint) to save weight - because they are using 6 pounds of foam (or more).
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So the sensible thing is for the designs for inland paddlers and coastal ones to diverge. You, photofr, are now an inland paddler. So paddle a canoe. But many of us on this forum - maybe even a majority of those who post regularly - are ocean SUPers. Our needs, priorities, and requirements are different. So our boards will look different.
@AREA
I am fairly certain that I have paddled more miles than you have during 2014, 2015, and 2016 - all in the Ocean, and pretty much every single one of those miles on a dugout board. My believe hasn't changed a bit - they are today the exact same as they were two years ago - WITH THE ALOHA KAI in mind.
This has nothing to do with flat water paddling or me recently moving inland. If flat water paddling would affect it, I would opt for a 19.5" board, dugout all the same - but that's not at all what I am suggesting.
We all know what you are suggesting. It’s just that we don’t agree. The reason we don’t agree is because of where we paddle, what we do, and what we want out of our SUP experience. I appreciate that you think that you have some superior knowledge or experience, and that it is your duty to educate us. But maybe we just want different things. I have paddled dugouts and I have paddled flat-deck boards. And in my conditions and for what I want I PREFER PADDLING THE FLAT DECK BOARDS. And it won’t matter how many times you tell me that you know better than I do and that we are all stupid, that fact will remain. And it's not do do with image - as you have accused us of in the past - it’s just that I don’t like the way that dugouts handle, and they don’t work well for what I want to do.
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MY VIEWS on #7
More accessible:
1) Because SUP boards can be lighter when made from a Mold.
2) Because SUP boards with a very low standing area would be more stable.
3) Because a rudder would invite more people to the sport, and make them feel more “in control” of their boards from the moment they stand up and paddle.
More affordable:
4) Because SUP boards made from a Mold will be cheaper. More complex Surfskis from Mold start at about 2500 euros, so we’ll be able to see SUP from a Mold start at about 1900 euros quite SOON – and there’s no doubt in my mind. 1900 euros is a far stretch from the current 3500 euros for a board filled with Styrofoam.
5) Because a board made from a Mold will last longer – much longer – thus will be considered more affordable when spread over the years.
More versatile:
6) Because of its rudder system. Many people do not paddle when it’s a bit windy, but a rudder will make them want to get out more often on the water.
7) Because I am certain that only a single board can be used for flat or downwing – just like in the World of surfskis. We just have to think outside the box.
1) True..... However, this relies on weight being a major selling factor for when people buy a board. I don't believe it is (or moreso that that marketing war hasn't started yet).
2) True..... but there are other ways to create stability that may be more user friendly. You'd need to discuss this in context of recerational and serious paddlers separately.
3) That's not true. I've never heard a single paddler complain about steering being their issue. The only branch of the sport that would require it is ocean paddling and that is a small margin of the current overall market.
4) Not true either. A manufacturer charges what they think their market will pay, not what it actually costs. Because current expectations of a board have been set, none of the big brands will undercut the current cost with new technology. I agree that hollow boards should be in line with surfski costs but that ship has sailed. Ski's didn't have this problem.
5) ..... which might be another reason why brands aren't interested in it when they've enjoyed 12 month turnover of designs for years. Moving to a longer cycle like Epic might be better but its hard when the rest of the market won't do the same initially.
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...Because a board made from a Mold will last longer – much longer –...
Why do you believe that?
I believe this because I have been on crafts from Molds since the early 80's (surfskis) - AND when I compare some of today's top SUP manufacturers with even the worst surfski (from a Mold) the difference leaves you thinking out loud.
Today's SUP is constructed with the worst of foam imaginable (for the environment and for strength).
...But here's the real test:
Take a SUP (any fibreglass or carbon board).
Paddle as you normally do, and let your stroke hit the board 5 times.
Chances are: you'll have at least 4 marks on your board.
Now, take a surfski...
Do the same, but hit your ski 100 times with your paddle.
You'll be "lucky" if you have 2 marks - that, mind you, you will be able to remove with GREAT EASE and make your gelcoat look like new again in no time.
FACTS
Styrofoam doesn't age well.
Styrofoam absorbs water.
Styrofoam isn't used in top ski construction for at least 25 years - for good reasons.
BELIEF
Current SUP need to skim on paint (light layer of car paint) to save weight - because they are using 6 pounds of foam (or more).
You're trying to apply comment sense to product design and maerketing (which doesn't use practicality and common sense to drive decisions). I worked as a product designer prior to my academic career and I've seen some bizarre decisions which made sense commercially but were bonkers really.
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@ AREA:
I am just sharing info - from the knowledge I gathered over the 1000's of hours spent on the water, in the water, under water, or thinking about hydrodynamics. You don't agree with me that dugout boards will excel - but keep in mind that I don't have to tell you (or repeat that one to YOU). Seemingly, everyone else has mentioned that to you, or has SHOWN THIS to you by excelling and winning with dugout parts - even in the Ocean.
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MY VIEWS on #7
More accessible:
1) Because SUP boards can be lighter when made from a Mold.
2) Because SUP boards with a very low standing area would be more stable.
3) Because a rudder would invite more people to the sport, and make them feel more “in control” of their boards from the moment they stand up and paddle.
More affordable:
4) Because SUP boards made from a Mold will be cheaper. More complex Surfskis from Mold start at about 2500 euros, so we’ll be able to see SUP from a Mold start at about 1900 euros quite SOON – and there’s no doubt in my mind. 1900 euros is a far stretch from the current 3500 euros for a board filled with Styrofoam.
5) Because a board made from a Mold will last longer – much longer – thus will be considered more affordable when spread over the years.
More versatile:
6) Because of its rudder system. Many people do not paddle when it’s a bit windy, but a rudder will make them want to get out more often on the water.
7) Because I am certain that only a single board can be used for flat or downwing – just like in the World of surfskis. We just have to think outside the box.
3) That's not true. I've never heard a single paddler complain about steering being their issue. The only branch of the sport that would require it is ocean paddling and that is a small margin of the current overall market.
@UKGM
Are you really telling me that you have never seen (with your very own eyes) new paddlers attempt to use a SUP with a little bit of wind, struggle, and just drift away like mad?
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@ AREA:
I am just sharing info - from the knowledge I gathered over the 1000's of hours spent on the water, in the water, under water, or thinking about hydrodynamics. You don't agree with me that dugout boards will excel - but keep in mind that I don't have to tell you (or repeat that one to YOU). Seemingly, everyone else has mentioned that to you, or has SHOWN THIS to you by excelling and winning with dugout parts - even in the Ocean.
This is a shame. After the sanity of your Nelo thread, you have returned to these pointlessly argumentative rants where you create straw men arguments and see what you want to see in people’s posts, not what they have actually said.
What I actually said was that I preferred paddling flat decks (or slightly sunken ones - my RS is a decent compromise for me). I DIDN’T say that dugouts aren’t effective, speed-wise, at least in the right hands. I said that I PREFER the paddling experience of a flat deck board (even if it is a displacement bow - I have enjoyed owning a Bark Dominator and a SIC X14 for example).
As I’ve said a gazillion times before, I paddle most in VERY confused, highly tidal, and very windy could conditions. Dugouts get blown all over the place in conditions like that. You need to be really on your game to make them work. There is just too much board exposed to the elements. By contrast, low volume downwind-type boards work much better, and mean you can enjoy a session when you simply couldn’t on a dugout - unless you are Connor Baxter. My custom 16ftx26” is extremely low volume - I think it’s something like 230L. People who try it in our difficult conditions are amazed at how stable it is and how much easier and pleasant it is to paddle than the usual raceboards.
AND a rudder doesn’t help, for our conditions. The forces at work (chop, wind, currents) simply overwhelm the rudder. So you are just left with a rather floppy fin, in effect. Try going out in heavy waters with a very loose fin and you’ll get the idea.
Mercifully, I don’t race (at least only once or twice a year). So I am freed from the tyranny of having to paddle the board that is fastest no matter how unpleasant it is to use. So I choose the board that works well for my conditions, is easy to own and transport, doesn’t need great skills to use, is highly versatile and user-friendly, and that puts a smile on my face. 95% of other paddlers choose their boards according to similar criteria. They don’t want to be bothered with big bulky canoes and all the hassle and maintenance of rudders etc. And that is the issue you are going to face in your mission to get everyone paddling stand-up canoes.
So, please try to take it easy. And listen to other people’s agendas and experience carefully. You seem to be starting off from the viewpoint that you have some unique insights that the rest of us don’t have. But maybe we’ve considered the alternatives, just like you, but have made different choices at the end of it.
Maybe you just need to go paddle, and enjoy your new dugout, and leave us frustrating plebs to our own silly choices :)
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…
So the sensible thing is for the designs for inland paddlers and coastal ones to diverge. You, photofr, are now an inland paddler. So paddle a canoe. But many of us on this forum - maybe even a majority of those who post regularly - are ocean SUPers. Our needs, priorities, and requirements are different. So our boards will look different.
…
There is inland and inland. Mountain lake paddling is nothing like paddling canals.
I’m an inland paddler. We have flatwater but also, very suddenly, very messed up waters. I know about 20 people with downwind boards locally. Which they use as allround boards. For very good reason.
Photofr is clearly a light and skilled surfski afficionado, whether at sea or inland.
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I love watching you guys argue. It's like a Monty Python skit.
No, it isn't.
Yes, it is, it's just like a Monty Python skit.
No, it isn't.
This isn't a good argument if you just keep saying "No it isn't".
Yes, it is.
-
…
3) Because a rudder would invite more people to the sport, and make them feel more “in control” of their boards from the moment they stand up and paddle.
…
3) That's not true. I've never heard a single paddler complain about steering being their issue. The only branch of the sport that would require it is ocean paddling and that is a small margin of the current overall market.
@UKGM
Are you really telling me that you have never seen (with your very own eyes) new paddlers attempt to use a SUP with a little bit of wind, struggle, and just drift away like mad?
I’ve seen new paddlers leave, and come back, with the board stern first (fin forward). Not just the paddle the wrong way around. How’s that for skillz [and naivness]!
Given nOObies tallent at ruining fins I seriously doubt anyone in their right minds would use a rudder board as a beginner loaner craft. A cheap inflatable with fixed unbreakable fins is still the best.
Anyways, learning to paddle correctly is better than using a rudder.
And wind will blow a beginner away whether they have a rudder or not.
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Why don’t we just agree that you should paddle a board that looks like a canoe, because you paddle in places and conditions where canoes are common, and we ocean dwellers should paddle boards that look a lot like traditional paddleboards because we paddle in places and conditions where trad paddleboards are found?
Why don't we agree that we were both raised on an island, and that only one of them was tropical? ☺ ☺ ☺
Let's see...
You have about 10 years limited experience paddling a SUP in or around the Ocean – and you STILL DO NOT HAVE TO LISTEN TO ME.
I have been paddling SURFSKIS for nearly 35 years - in the Ocean – and I sure as heck know that a rudder will work in heavy waters – unlike some people I know who claim it will not work.
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Here is something people will have a very hard time arguing against:
1. How can dugouts be taken seriously if Pono hasn't already gotten one?
2. Pono is learning to foiling.
^ Those two things should tell you all you need to know.
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I love watching you guys argue. It's like a Monty Python skit.
No, it isn't.
Yes, it is, it's just like a Monty Python skit.
No, it isn't.
This isn't a good argument if you just keep saying "No it isn't".
Yes, it is.
Don’t give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings.
https://youtu.be/uLlv_aZjHXc
-
…
3) Because a rudder would invite more people to the sport, and make them feel more “in control” of their boards from the moment they stand up and paddle.
…
3) That's not true. I've never heard a single paddler complain about steering being their issue. The only branch of the sport that would require it is ocean paddling and that is a small margin of the current overall market.
@UKGM
Are you really telling me that you have never seen (with your very own eyes) new paddlers attempt to use a SUP with a little bit of wind, struggle, and just drift away like mad?
And wind will blow a beginner away whether they have a rudder or not.
Good point, but from a different prospective, I'd rather see newer paddlers under supervision:
- use a rudder
- learn proper forward stroke (yes, before learning all the confusing-to-them strokes)
- learn remounts
- come back because the experience was a great one (they weren't horrified by the 4 km of light side wind)
-
...
I have been paddling SURFSKIS for nearly 35 years - in the Ocean – and I sure as heck know that a rudder will work in heavy waters – unlike some people I know who claim it will not work.
Surfskis are clearly designed around you sitting down [and not moving around much]. Obviously a rudder is super handy.
I'm not interested in foot steering on a SUP because it forces you to stand where the rudder is. I do like Pono's idea of the remote controlled rudder. Especially the part where you set your bearing and let the rudder keep that for you.
Knowing how to paddle in a straight line is in any case an essentail skill. If only for efficiency. Poor paddling and a rudder correcting it is like haveing a handbrake on. In sailing doing something similar is called "in irons". Basically it is just plain stoopid.
I am lucky to have learned how to paddle straight very early on. I have Pono to thank for that having stumbled on an early video of his breaking down the various ways to achieve that. No one else I was paddling with was able to point out how to do that at the time. Too few care to learn it. IMO it is one of the first basic skills to learn.
-
...
I'd rather see newer paddlers under supervision:
- use a rudder
- learn proper forward stroke (yes, before learning all the confusing-to-them strokes)
- learn remounts
- come back because the experience was a great one (they weren't horrified by the 4 km of light side wind)
I disagree.
IMO two important skills a beginner should learn right up front are:
- to learn to paddle straight
- to be mobile on the board with their feet
Giving them a foot activate rudder board up front will, in my opinion, seriously handicap them for later development.
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One thing is for certain, interest in SUP racing is fading. Reminds me of the decaying XC MTB racing scene over the last umptten years.
My guess is that, just as with mountain bikes, SUP's will be available in more different and specific flavors. No great prediction, since they already are to a great extent.
To predict the direction of race boards is nearly impossible because we would first have to predict the direction of racing rules.
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In Brittany, France: the last 7 people I put on a surfski and on a SUP said the same thing:
- I want to try the surfski again
- Steering is so much easier
All I wanted was for them to learn to paddle correctly, but they just wanted to have fun. I think our new generation is different: "instant gratification, let's learn paddle strokes LATER. "
-
One thing is for certain, interest in SUP racing is fading. Reminds me of the decaying XC MTB racing scene over the last umptten years.
My guess is that, just as with mountain bikes, SUP's will be available in more different and specific flavors. No great prediction, since they already are to a great extent.
To predict the direction of race boards is nearly impossible because we would first have to predict the direction of racing rules.
AND... rules change.
Am I the only one who noticed that a set of rules once read, not too long ago:
- Minimum width for all 14' board will be 23"
(or am I completely mistaking?)
-
Why don’t we just agree that you should paddle a board that looks like a canoe, because you paddle in places and conditions where canoes are common, and we ocean dwellers should paddle boards that look a lot like traditional paddleboards because we paddle in places and conditions where trad paddleboards are found?
Why don't we agree that we were both raised on an island, and that only one of them was tropical? ☺ ☺ ☺
Let's see...
You have about 10 years limited experience paddling a SUP in or around the Ocean – and you STILL DO NOT HAVE TO LISTEN TO ME.
I have been paddling SURFSKIS for nearly 35 years - in the Ocean – and I sure as heck know that a rudder will work in heavy waters – unlike some people I know who claim it will not work.
I’m not talking about surfskis. The dynamics are different. Yugi is right that if you have a rudder it gets in the way of your footwork on a SUP that provides a much more effective way of steering in really messy conditions. You’d need a rudder that was about 100 sq inches before you’d start to have anywhere like enough effect to be useful in the conditions here. The difference between a surfski and a sup is that you can shift your weight so much more radically on a SUP. In hell confused waters this is extremely useful. Rudders are required on surfskis partly because your weight is static. If you could zip up and down along the board moment by moment (e.g. via some moving seat) it would open up whole new avenues of steering possibilities. But you can’t, so a rudder is pretty much all you’ve got.
And yes, we all know by now that you are far far more experienced than we are, at everything. Even though I’ve been paddling in the sea for 50 years, on all manner of craft.
Anyway, I should stop arguing with you. It is indeed becoming like a Monty Python sketch. I think we understand each other’s positions, so there’s not much point going any further. It seems like we can’t even agree to disagree!
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I'm way too young to take up a sitting-down sport.
When I'm 80 I plan to a) start smoking tobacco, b) get into sit down sports. How's that for delayed gratification?
Photof, why don't you focus your keenness on kayak foiling? If you're foiling on a kayak you don't need the board to be so damn long anymore. Hence they'd be way more practical.
I think it's the wrong time to be investing in expensive molds you need 4 or 5 years to amortize. Too much innovation happening.
-
One thing is for certain, interest in SUP racing is fading. Reminds me of the decaying XC MTB racing scene over the last umptten years.
My guess is that, just as with mountain bikes, SUP's will be available in more different and specific flavors. No great prediction, since they already are to a great extent.
To predict the direction of race boards is nearly impossible because we would first have to predict the direction of racing rules.
AND... rules change.
Am I the only one who noticed that a set of rules once read, not too long ago:
- Minimum width for all 14' board will be 23"
(or am I completely mistaking?)
Yes, you are completly mistaken.
It was a suggestion. No SUP racing overseeing body has taken hold either.
You were a windsurfer photof, right? In windsurf racing there is a new rule: "there are no rules". How cool is that?
-
One thing is for certain, interest in SUP racing is fading. Reminds me of the decaying XC MTB racing scene over the last umptten years.
My guess is that, just as with mountain bikes, SUP's will be available in more different and specific flavors. No great prediction, since they already are to a great extent.
To predict the direction of race boards is nearly impossible because we would first have to predict the direction of racing rules.
AND... rules change.
Am I the only one who noticed that a set of rules once read, not too long ago:
- Minimum width for all 14' board will be 23"
(or am I completely mistaking?)
Yes, you are completly mistaken.
It was a suggestion. No SUP racing overseeing body has taken hold either.
You were a windsurfer photof, right? In windsurf racing there is a new rule: "there are no rules". How cool is that?
@YUGI
Look into ISA -
Their rulebook seems quite long for the SUP. They are seemingly attached at the waist with Starboard.
-
...In windsurf racing there is a new rule: "there are no rules". How cool is that?
Now that would be interesting...
-
One thing is for certain, interest in SUP racing is fading. Reminds me of the decaying XC MTB racing scene over the last umptten years.
My guess is that, just as with mountain bikes, SUP's will be available in more different and specific flavors. No great prediction, since they already are to a great extent.
To predict the direction of race boards is nearly impossible because we would first have to predict the direction of racing rules.
I think there is a flaw in your term "XC MTB racing". It's the word XC.
XC mtn bike racing will always be like XC skiing racing. And flatwater SUP racing.
The evolution (and racing) of MTB is awesome and heaving.
As SUP can be.
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It was SUPAA RULES...
23" minimum for 14' boards - totally blown out of the water in 2017 onwards.
Quote:
14’ width minimum of 23’’ inches as measured at the 3 inch rail mark.
12’6 width minimum of 23.75’’ inches as measured at the 3 inch rail mark.
14’ weight minimum of 10kg (22.05 lbs)
12’6 weight minimum of 9kg (19.84 lbs)
No board shall have raised rails greater than 4.92 inches (12.5 cm) as measured from the standing area to the top of the rail.
Link: http://supathletes.com/supaa-manufacturers-announce-board-restrictions/
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...In windsurf racing there is a new rule: "there are no rules". How cool is that?
Now that would be interesting...
It's true. No kidding. At least in terms of priority on water. So much more rad now.
For MTB:
Check the videos of Megavalanche bike race for some crazy chinese downhill action.
4x is cool too. The passing at 1:06 in this is still the best...
https://youtu.be/e1yeDW3dHdw
Oh, and if you think MTB racing doesn't attract spectators you have not have seen this stuff yet. Earlier years there wasn't all the rails, it used to be insane with stray dogs etc. 13th year I think.
https://youtu.be/UluyEtL0XDY
I do assume you have heard of the Red Bull Rampage.
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... SUPAA RULES...
No-one listened to them, photof. Which I assume you already figured out.
I think they were good ideas as guidelines to help develop SUP boards interesting for the average joe.
Funny you mention them as the rest of your post seems to be gunning for radically narrow dugouts.
Which camp are you in already?
Like I said: pendulum swings. I'm sitting this one out. Anyways most agree flatwater SUP racing will be like XC specific racing in other sports. Very athletic but not the direction the market will go.
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Yes. It's raining today. Sorry for the post overload.
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@YUGI
Look into ISA -
Their rulebook seems quite long for the SUP. They are seemingly attached at the waist with Starboard.
You mean the only race in the world still limited to 12'6? Bwahahahaha.
Speaking of archaic rules...
(at least now we know 2019 they'll change that to 14's)
Aren't you supposed to be the UL fanatic?
-
One thing is for certain, interest in SUP racing is fading. Reminds me of the decaying XC MTB racing scene over the last umptten years.
My guess is that, just as with mountain bikes, SUP's will be available in more different and specific flavors. No great prediction, since they already are to a great extent.
To predict the direction of race boards is nearly impossible because we would first have to predict the direction of racing rules.
AND... rules change.
Am I the only one who noticed that a set of rules once read, not too long ago:
- Minimum width for all 14' board will be 23"
(or am I completely mistaking?)
SUPAA was an advisory organisation led by Chase. I was one of his advisors. We did that to try and stop what we knew was coming (to protect the racing sport as a whole) but Starboard brought out the 21.5 anyway.
-
...
I have been paddling SURFSKIS for nearly 35 years - in the Ocean – and I sure as heck know that a rudder will work in heavy waters – unlike some people I know who claim it will not work.
In sailing doing something similar is called "in irons".
No it isn't.
-
You're right. Sorry. Heave to.
Been a long time since I've sailed in english.
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"If you are a brand representative who we have not heard back from please comment and allow us to add you to this list if you agree to the terms. Below are the agreed upon board restrictions for 2014. We will reevaluate these guidelines annually with the input of athletes and brand managers.
These guidelines will be upheld by the agreeing manufacturers and enforced at all SUPAA sanctioned events in 2015.
Existing boards that do not meet these requirements will be legal until 2016. New boards that do not meet our requirements will be illegal at SUPAA events in 2015."
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Def sounded just like a Monty skit for a while there. ;D ;D ;D
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Def sounded just like a Monty skit for a while there. ;D ;D ;D
No it didn’t... etc :)
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Yes, it most certainly did...
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time's up.
Move along.
We are an adrenaline fueled world now.
-
time's up.
Move along.
We are an adrenaline fueled world now.
That was never five minutes just now!!
-
Yes it was!
-
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ooooh, all the way to 14's. This stuff is playing out in such a predictable manner. The only surprise for me is that it's holding together about ten times longer than I expected. No rules sounds best to me. The SUPAA rules were so deep into nitpicking there was just no way anyone would keep paying attention. Yes, Olympic rules are endlessly more bureaucratic. So what?
Lots of people knew a long time ago that a deep standing position is extremely effective. The geometry is better. I'm surprised the shapes have gone towards canoes. Footwell boards are bitches to drain, but it can be solved. They're a lot easier to get back up on and don't get blown around. When the palette is as limited as current rules dictate designers have limited choices. If one manufacturer does it, everyone else has to follow suit or wind up in the mid-pack.
-
Ooooh, all the way to 14's. This stuff is playing out in such a predictable manner. The only surprise for me is that it's holding together about ten times longer than I expected. No rules sounds best to me. The SUPAA rules were so deep into nitpicking there was just no way anyone would keep paying attention. Yes, Olympic rules are endlessly more bureaucratic. So what?
If you want a fair and robust sport for all stakeholders, you need constitutive rules for a competitive sport. Saying no rules is just ridiculous. Even F1 motorsport eventually realised this.
-
MY VIEWS on #7
More accessible:
1) Because SUP boards can be lighter when made from a Mold.
2) Because SUP boards with a very low standing area would be more stable.
3) Because a rudder would invite more people to the sport, and make them feel more “in control” of their boards from the moment they stand up and paddle.
More affordable:
4) Because SUP boards made from a Mold will be cheaper. More complex Surfskis from Mold start at about 2500 euros, so we’ll be able to see SUP from a Mold start at about 1900 euros quite SOON – and there’s no doubt in my mind. 1900 euros is a far stretch from the current 3500 euros for a board filled with Styrofoam.
5) Because a board made from a Mold will last longer – much longer – thus will be considered more affordable when spread over the years.
More versatile:
6) Because of its rudder system. Many people do not paddle when it’s a bit windy, but a rudder will make them want to get out more often on the water.
7) Because I am certain that only a single board can be used for flat or downwing – just like in the World of surfskis. We just have to think outside the box.
3) That's not true. I've never heard a single paddler complain about steering being their issue. The only branch of the sport that would require it is ocean paddling and that is a small margin of the current overall market.
@UKGM
Are you really telling me that you have never seen (with your very own eyes) new paddlers attempt to use a SUP with a little bit of wind, struggle, and just drift away like mad?
I think you are philosophically trying to crack a walnut with a sledgehammer when you consider the most common types of paddling i.e. inland or on calmer waters.
-
Ooooh, all the way to 14's. This stuff is playing out in such a predictable manner. The only surprise for me is that it's holding together about ten times longer than I expected. No rules sounds best to me. The SUPAA rules were so deep into nitpicking there was just no way anyone would keep paying attention. Yes, Olympic rules are endlessly more bureaucratic. So what?
If you want a fair and robust sport for all stakeholders, you need constitutive rules for a competitive sport. Saying no rules is just ridiculous. Even F1 motorsport eventually realised this.
That's a great point, rules ruined F1...
-
Ooooh, all the way to 14's. This stuff is playing out in such a predictable manner. The only surprise for me is that it's holding together about ten times longer than I expected. No rules sounds best to me. The SUPAA rules were so deep into nitpicking there was just no way anyone would keep paying attention. Yes, Olympic rules are endlessly more bureaucratic. So what?
If you want a fair and robust sport for all stakeholders, you need constitutive rules for a competitive sport. Saying no rules is just ridiculous. Even F1 motorsport eventually realised this.
What? Stakeholders? What stakeholders. Navigate to Google Trends. Enter any flavor of the term "stand up paddle racing" and set the scope to worldwide. There won't be enough data to show a trend. Then pick something with a deeper fan base, like pig racing.
-
One thing is for certain, interest in SUP racing is fading. Reminds me of the decaying XC MTB racing scene over the last umptten years.
My guess is that, just as with mountain bikes, SUP's will be available in more different and specific flavors. No great prediction, since they already are to a great extent.
To predict the direction of race boards is nearly impossible because we would first have to predict the direction of racing rules.
AND... rules change.
Am I the only one who noticed that a set of rules once read, not too long ago:
- Minimum width for all 14' board will be 23"
(or am I completely mistaking?)
SUPAA was an advisory organisation led by Chase. I was one of his advisors. We did that to try and stop what we knew was coming (to protect the racing sport as a whole) but Starboard brought out the 21.5 anyway.
Small world. While SUPAA was coming out with its board restrictions, I was talking to Svein from Starboard and Robby Naish telling them not to cave into complying with SUPAA's board restrictions.
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Are you really telling me that you have never seen (with your very own eyes) new paddlers attempt to use a SUP with a little bit of wind, struggle, and just drift away like mad?
There was a Naish demo here in Portland on the Willamette a few years ago on a day with some (not too bad) wind. People launched from the dock at the sailing club, got caught in the wind, and a couple dozen of them ended up blown into a pocket on the shore 100 yards or so upriver. Some of the Naish people had to paddle up there with ropes and retrieve them and the boards.
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Are you really telling me that you have never seen (with your very own eyes) new paddlers attempt to use a SUP with a little bit of wind, struggle, and just drift away like mad?
There was a Naish demo here in Portland on the Willamette a few years ago on a day with some (not too bad) wind. People launched from the dock at the sailing club, got caught in the wind, and a couple dozen of them ended up blown into a pocket on the shore 100 yards or so upriver. Some of the Naish people had to paddle up there with ropes and retrieve them and the boards.
A rudder would not have helped these people. Rudders need skill to use. These people needed paddle skills most of all - and general awareness. But what would have helped more than a rudder would be to have been on a board that is relatively resistant to winds. I don’t know what boards they were on but I’d bet that is they’d all been on dugouts the problem would have been ten times worse - and some would have capsized and not been able to get back in again. If they’d had rudders, and they’d been chop, many more would have capsized. Rudders poorly used encourages broaching.
Ever watched a fat person trying to get back into an Ace, in wind and chop? Especially if wearing a pfd. If you have a big belly, or anything on your chest/belly, it becomes almost impossible. Very dangerous. For this reason alone, never mind the weathervaning, dugouts will never be good for beginners. Falling is a part of learning to SUP. And a board you can’t get back onto is a deathtrap.
But don’t take my word for it. Put a plump beginner in an Ace in windy conditions (or in any ruddered dugout) and watch what happens. Just make sure you have a solid rescue plan.
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The focus shouldn't be:
- Racing
- Touring (for somewhat experienced paddlers)
- Cruising about (for beginners)
- Rentals (for absolute beginners)
- Teaching SUP
- etc...
Some of you are describing problems associated with dugout boards and rudders based on Rentals (and absolute beginners). I wouldn't rent anything with a rudder to an absolute beginner. That's where inflatables and direct supervision should come in.
Perhaps another subject all together, because we are not doing enough for absolute beginners - in my opinion.
Clearly, we could all afford to be a little more open minded. Tunnel vision would have someone say that all sports cars shouldn't exist, because so many people couldn't get into them, or that tennis shoes shouldn't exist either, because we can easily prove that so many people cannot reach and tie their shoes.
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Yes, there will be limitations with everything - but let's take one thing at a time. Let's take DUGOUT
IMPORTANT NOTE
Just because dugout boards have traumatised a few doesn't mean they cannot be modified in the future to better suit the needs of more riders.
DUGOUT BOARDS SIDEWALLS
Look at the image below:
It’s a dugout board, but…
- Does it look difficult to climb back onboard?
- Does it look like its bow will catch wind more than your board?
- Does it look like its sidewalls will catch side chop like mad?
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2014-images/2014-Aug-16-Tour-de-Gavres-SUP/i-G89RX3n/1/a71d18fe/XL/tour-de-gavres-027-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/SUP-Stand-Up-Paddling/i-G89RX3n/A)
DUGOUT BOARD MILD DOWNWIND ABILITIES
Yes, this is the same board as the first image.
Look closely at the mild downwind conditions though.
A dugout board doesn’t have to suck at downwind, even small DW.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2014-images/2014-Aug-09-Gavres-SUP/i-pfGkPJR/1/0189c6fd/L/gavres-010-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/SUP-Stand-Up-Paddling/i-pfGkPJR/A)
DUGOUT BOARD DOWNWIND ABILITIES
Does it really look this guy isn’t enjoying his DW?
He’s on a dugout board, all the same.
Heck, he's even able to walk all over that board.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-May-14-Downwind-on-the/i-6sx54mm/2/35ca3e25/XL/blavet-038-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/SUP-Stand-Up-Paddling/i-6sx54mm/A)
DUGOUT BOARD SURFING ABILITIES
Are you really sitting there, with a straight face when you are insinuating that surfing isn’t possible with a dugout board?
Shot of a rider on a dugout board, SB Sprint.
Do you really think that his feet remained planted in the exact same spot?
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-JgNb9F5/1/2da9d2be/XL/i-JgNb9F5-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/SUP-Stand-Up-Paddling/i-JgNb9F5/A)
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One thing is for certain, interest in SUP racing is fading. Reminds me of the decaying XC MTB racing scene over the last umptten years.
My guess is that, just as with mountain bikes, SUP's will be available in more different and specific flavors. No great prediction, since they already are to a great extent.
To predict the direction of race boards is nearly impossible because we would first have to predict the direction of racing rules.
AND... rules change.
Am I the only one who noticed that a set of rules once read, not too long ago:
- Minimum width for all 14' board will be 23"
(or am I completely mistaking?)
SUPAA was an advisory organisation led by Chase. I was one of his advisors. We did that to try and stop what we knew was coming (to protect the racing sport as a whole) but Starboard brought out the 21.5 anyway.
Small world. While SUPAA was coming out with its board restrictions, I was talking to Svein from Starboard and Robby Naish telling them not to cave into complying with SUPAA's board restrictions.
It's funny how small a world it is isn't it !! :D The SUPAA rules were only ever advisory. Some people supported them, some didn't. I knew at the time that its wasn't in the individuals or the brands interest to support it.
However, (as Jim Terrell and I wrote) the move to sub 23 inch width boards is an intent that further upskills the sport and deters the thicker end of the wedge that is supporting the racing in the main. The decision made by starboard to ignore it was the beginning of the end of any further development of mass participation in racing and in the end, this will cost them. I've seen it in too many sports.
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ukgm- are you sure your agenda in arguing against very narrow race boards wasn’t that if they are allowed it was going to be impossible for *you* to win at a high level?
Whenever I see currently active competitors advocating a particular rule, it’s funny how often that rule benefits them personally...
This is not to say that the “Jim Terrell” prediction is wrong - I believe that we are almost there, really, with so many of the top paddlers on narrow dugouts that do not appeal at all to general public, and won’t look anything remotely like a beginner would buy as their first board. But perhaps it is inevitable with our sport that as we move towards the Olympics, we will end up with competitors who in age and physique resemble gymnasts. Or perhaps if board regulations change, they will all like look like C1 canoeists. Either way it will exclude 99.9% of the population from being competitive. Unlike soccer, for instance, where the two best players in the work (Ronaldo and Messi) are of wildly different builds, weights, and statures. THAT is what a popular, inclusive sport with a future looks like... a person who plays soccer can dream that no matter what your natural body shape, you could potentially compete at the highest level.
Sadly, ukgm, despite you being an ultra-fit semi-pro (or perhaps in some ways even pro) sportsperson, you are soon going to be getting your butt kicked by 15 year-old girls. Maybe that’s the way it is supposed to go. The sport was invented by heavy old geezers, basically. (Look at who was winning the first Battle of the Paddle or Maliko/M2O races etc.) But the kids were always going to take it over. So maybe ask the kids what they would like their races and equipment to be like, instead of having competitive old men setting the agenda. The writing is on the wall for it as a mass participation race sport anyway. Which is not to say that there can’t be mass participation *events* (ie. where most people are just doing it for fun rather than with any intention of being seriously competitive). There can and will be.
Just create a little corner for the handful of really competitive pro kids to do their thing on their weird SUP race canoes that no-one else is interested in - alongside photofr, who weighs about the same as they do ;) -and let the rest of us hang out and have a good time in the main event on the same boards we can paddle just about anywhere at the weekend or with friends. Messi and Ronaldo casually competing together, if they want to. Or just cruising along if they’d rather do that.
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Just create a little corner for the handful of really competitive pro kids to do their thing on their weird SUP race canoes that no-one else is interested in - alongside photofr, who weighs about the same as they do ;) -and let the rest of us hang out and have a good time in the main event on the same boards we can paddle just about anywhere at the weekend or with friends.
Don't be a DOUCHE.
Think again!
I have a great time every time I go and paddle.
I spend more time offshore - 10 kilometres or more off coastal waters.
The same board used offshore (downwind, side wind, upwind) was later used to take photos in a pond or in Open Water.
What a douche - assuming crap about me is really manly of you.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-hHCQN7r/1/378e0668/L/Screen%20Shot%202015-06-17%20at%207.56.44%20PM-L.png) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-hHCQN7r/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-g8QQ8st/0/685da105/L/Screenshot%202018-05-24%2012.45.57-L.png) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-g8QQ8st/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-gKkgNgb/0/72d43f77/L/Screenshot%202018-05-24%2012.46.08-L.png) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-gKkgNgb/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-7NrNWMN/0/3c991da3/L/Screenshot%202018-05-24%2012.46.32-L.png) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-7NrNWMN/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-PqjR2L8/0/8458973e/L/Screenshot%202018-05-24%2012.46.47-L.png) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-PqjR2L8/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-zMv5L53/0/1bbd9c29/L/Screenshot%202018-05-24%2012.46.58-L.png) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2015-Event-Photos/2015-Feb-14-Runs-GPS/i-zMv5L53/A)
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Im not sure what your point was there, photofr, but let me say this: Your weight is not a small thing here, photofr- it is determining a lot of what you (and others) are saying here, and the choices of boards.
You weigh the same as my (slim, athletic) son did aged 14. What he could balance on at that age is extraordinary. A 14x21.5 board would be like a boat to him.
At the other end of the scale is ukgm, who is similarly fit and is a superb and gifted athlete with a training ethic second to none. But he can’t realistically race at the highest levels because the regulations prevent him from using the most appropriate board for him.
How is this relevant to the issue of dugouts? It is because falling during a race if you are in a dugout can spell the end of your race. But if you fall when using a flat deck board you can be up and going almost before the board has slowed down. So, the issue of being able to balance on narrow boards gets even more emphasis if the boards are all dugouts. Because of your weight, and the fact that most boards are made with a much heavier person in mind, you probably haven’t been really confronted with this issue yet. It is the great advantage of being the size you are.
But the rest of us have, in some cases very starkly.
Your weight, and power-to-weight ratio probably means that you could indeed compete alongside a bunch of the talented teenage youngsters who are flooding into the sport, and use the same equipment as them, whereas bigger folk could not. Good for you. For the rest of us it would just be a side show from which we are practically excluded. And the worst possible craft for us would be a super-tippy dugout. I’ve still got marks on my ankles from clambering back into my Ace when out paddling it in F6 winds. The guy I bought the board from had the same experience and then immediately sold the board to me. His wife said he didn’t look safe out there on it. She was right. He bought a flat deck board and was fine.
Btw, I wouldn’t call some of the boards you’ve shown above “dugouts”. They just have a fairly mildly sunken deck, which is not the same thing.
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1) ukgm- are you sure your agenda in arguing against very narrow race boards wasn’t that if they are allowed it was going to be impossible for *you* to win at a high level? Whenever I see currently active competitors advocating a particular rule, it’s funny how often that rule benefits them personally...
2) Sadly, ukgm, despite you being an ultra-fit semi-pro (or perhaps in some ways even pro) sportsperson, you are soon going to be getting your butt kicked by 15 year-old girls.
3) So maybe ask the kids what they would like their races and equipment to be like, instead of having competitive old men setting the agenda.
1) I think it's fair to call me out on bias. However, the answer is no. It's purely that a fair proportion of my PhD addressed similar issues in athletics (and I've published journal papers in this area) so its honestly a case that I'm aware of the philosophical issues that technology can create. I should also add that I've worked with governing bodies internationally (in both cycling & athletics - particularly the Oscar Pistorius case in '08) to try and deal with technology driven problems and regulation. Personally, I'm actually pro technology.
2) That's fine with me. I only class myself as a very fit age grouper. SUP is a second sport for me so I'm pretty relaxed about it (conversely, I'm extremely secretive and obsessive about my cycling). I had another SUP video go out today on SUPboarder mag but you wouldn't see me do that with my cycling.
3) I would disagree because I believe that a sports success and future should lie with mass participation. Handing control of technological decision making to those who are not the thicker end of the wedge and have more honed technical skills would be a huge mistake. My solution instead would be to perform a stakeholder analysis of everyone involved. This was actually something I offered to the ISA a couple of years back for gratis but they never bothered to reply.
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You make a convincing case, ukgm.
It would be indeed interesting - perhaps even essential - to have a stakeholder analysis.
But so far the history of the development of SUP has been like herding a bunch of rather irritable cats. There is something about board-based Watersports that attracts rugged individualists. And there are just too many sub-disciplines each with their own ethos and needs for one umbrella system to work well.
I hope the racers get what they want. I really enjoy watching the elite racers live via SUP Racer etc. It’s great to learn from them - I’d rather watch them and learn from them than race against them, which would be entirely pointless and counter-productive. So as long as the coverage of the races continues to improve, I’ll stay interested in racing, even if I don’t race myself.
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Im not sure what your point was there, photofr...
Btw, I wouldn’t call some of the boards you’ve shown above “dugouts”. They just have a fairly mildly sunken deck, which is not the same thing.
^Yes, not even close. He's actually proving the opposite point but lets not tell him, it might interfere with his reality distortion field ;D
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I helped Sonni Honsheid tie her wayward dugout onto a rental car when she came for the Olukai. It looked like a primitive dugout shaped from a single log that had been painted blue. My only thought was "better her than me". Of course, she won with the thing, but will anyone else look at that and think "I gotta get me one of those".
I don't really understand the principle. The standing position is achievable by digging out a slightly thicker than normal board. How is a dugout with higher walls an improvement on that?
The "surfski you can stand on" was achieved long ago with the Penetrators. Fast? Yes. Commercially viable? Nope. Secondary stability only. Not many people can make that work. The only person I know who liked it was Jeremy Riggs, and he doesn't count.
-
...
But perhaps it is inevitable with our sport that as we move towards the Olympics, we will end up with competitors who in age and physique resemble gymnasts.
...
Might be better than competitors that look like you or UKGM. No?
;)
</duck>
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I helped Sonni Honsheid tie her wayward dugout onto a rental car when she came for the Olukai. It looked like a primitive dugout shaped from a single log that had been painted blue. My only thought was "better her than me". Of course, she won with the thing, but will anyone else look at that and think "I gotta get me one of those".
I don't really understand the principle. The standing position is achievable by digging out a slightly thicker than normal board. How is a dugout with higher walls an improvement on that?
The "surfski you can stand on" was achieved long ago with the Penetrators. Fast? Yes. Commercially viable? Nope. Secondary stability only. Not many people can make that work. The only person I know who liked it was Jeremy Riggs, and he doesn't count.
The only board I saw that was left field that I really quite liked the look of was SIC's standamaran. The reality is that whilst photofr seems to give the impression we're all happy to be in the dark ages because we don't all fancy hollow rudder controlled rockets, maybe he's not thinking laterally or wildly enough ;D
-
...
But perhaps it is inevitable with our sport that as we move towards the Olympics, we will end up with competitors who in age and physique resemble gymnasts.
...
Might be better than competitors that look like you or UKGM. No?
;)
</duck>
I hope not. I don't look like I suit any of the sports I do and I don't want to start looking normal now. ;D ;D ;D
-
...
But perhaps it is inevitable with our sport that as we move towards the Olympics, we will end up with competitors who in age and physique resemble gymnasts.
...
Might be better than competitors that look like you or UKGM. No?
;)
</duck>
You insult ukgm by categorising him alongside me! I’m just your typical blobby middle-aged man. He’s a training god who probably has muscles even on his testicles.
But you may have missed the jist of my intent here. If someone like me can even approach a decent standard - even in local races (and a coupla years ago, a couple of times I beat a load of guys who were literally less than half my age by substantial margins) then something is probably wrong. The kids SHOULD be kicking my ass. And with the right training and equipment (not boards made for middle-aged men) they will.
In some ways the reason why (some of) the oldsters can still not be embarrassed by the kids is because the oldsters have fixed the competitions to favour them. They are often very long boring grinds and don’t rely too much on balance, flexibility and agility. But is that the way it should be? Moving away from boards that wobbly old geezers like me can paddle might be part of the sport maturing.
We can still turn up and potter about or compete amongst our age peers. But let the kids do what they can do best - and would like to do.
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@AREA:
Questions...
Do you consider the Sprint 17'6x23" a dugout board?
Do you consider the ACE GT 17'4x27" a dugout board?
If not to either (or both of them) could you explain why?
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I helped Sonni Honsheid tie her wayward dugout onto a rental car when she came for the Olukai. It looked like a primitive dugout shaped from a single log that had been painted blue. My only thought was "better her than me". Of course, she won with the thing, but will anyone else look at that and think "I gotta get me one of those".
I don't really understand the principle. The standing position is achievable by digging out a slightly thicker than normal board. How is a dugout with higher walls an improvement on that?
The "surfski you can stand on" was achieved long ago with the Penetrators. Fast? Yes. Commercially viable? Nope. Secondary stability only. Not many people can make that work. The only person I know who liked it was Jeremy Riggs, and he doesn't count.
The only board I saw that was left field that I really quite liked the look of was SIC's standamaran. The reality is that whilst photofr seems to give the impression we're all happy to be in the dark ages because we don't all fancy hollow rudder controlled rockets, maybe he's not thinking laterally or wildly enough ;D
Are any of you really?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD_XnqbSJVI
;) ;D
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Even standing max aft -> this is what happens in a flooding dugout birdbath in just a smallish medium steep bump. Not even medium large steep and deep. Whereas proper DW surf nosed boards in bigger waves handle like a charm. We will always go for a M14 or rudder Bullet 17.4 when conditions get big and nasty if given a choice. So much more fun and so much easier. In smaller conditions dugouts do work -> but are very uncomfortable to sit and rest if need be. Hopping back on after a fall or injury in rough conditions will not be quick nor very easy. But horses for courses as everyone has their own opinion and can make their own choice for what they want to ride on any given day.
For going less than 23 down to 21.5 that is ok with us. Let the riders with decent balance race on those and push the new designs forward. At some point there will be a limit. Wider boards will still be readily available anyways for those that need more stability or more volume. Maybe there will be less competitors at the pointy end. But that happens. Connor or Kai or AA are pretty lean and fit with good power to weight ratios. That is how it should be. To expect heavy racers with poor power to weight -> riding wide high drag boards to still be competitive at this point is really pushing it.
ukgm dropped down from a 26 Maliko to a 24.5 All Star and noticed substantial gains in speed. He intends to drop down further next year. That is not unusual and is expected based on what other racers are doing. He evolved and improved his balance year over year. To get faster you have to reduce form drag while maintaining full power. A 27.5 Dom pushes a lot of water around it at full power. A 21.5 Sprint simply does not. It just goes so much faster. Which is normal and expected. ;)
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Are you really telling me that you have never seen (with your very own eyes) new paddlers attempt to use a SUP with a little bit of wind, struggle, and just drift away like mad?
There was a Naish demo here in Portland on the Willamette a few years ago on a day with some (not too bad) wind. People launched from the dock at the sailing club, got caught in the wind, and a couple dozen of them ended up blown into a pocket on the shore 100 yards or so upriver. Some of the Naish people had to paddle up there with ropes and retrieve them and the boards.
A rudder would not have helped these people. Rudders need skill to use. These people needed paddle skills most of all - and general awareness. But what would have helped more than a rudder would be to have been on a board that is relatively resistant to winds. I don’t know what boards they were on but I’d bet that is they’d all been on dugouts the problem would have been ten times worse - and some would have capsized and not been able to get back in again. If they’d had rudders, and they’d been chop, many more would have capsized. Rudders poorly used encourages broaching.
Ever watched a fat person trying to get back into an Ace, in wind and chop? Especially if wearing a pfd. If you have a big belly, or anything on your chest/belly, it becomes almost impossible. Very dangerous. For this reason alone, never mind the weathervaning, dugouts will never be good for beginners. Falling is a part of learning to SUP. And a board you can’t get back onto is a deathtrap.
But don’t take my word for it. Put a plump beginner in an Ace in windy conditions (or in any ruddered dugout) and watch what happens. Just make sure you have a solid rescue plan.
I was just recounting a time I saw beginners getting blown by the wind. I agree--rudders aren't going to help people who can barely paddle yet, Aces would have been worse, etc.
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Are you really telling me that you have never seen (with your very own eyes) new paddlers attempt to use a SUP with a little bit of wind, struggle, and just drift away like mad?
There was a Naish demo here in Portland on the Willamette a few years ago on a day with some (not too bad) wind. People launched from the dock at the sailing club, got caught in the wind, and a couple dozen of them ended up blown into a pocket on the shore 100 yards or so upriver. Some of the Naish people had to paddle up there with ropes and retrieve them and the boards.
A rudder would not have helped these people. Rudders need skill to use. These people needed paddle skills most of all - and general awareness. But what would have helped more than a rudder would be to have been on a board that is relatively resistant to winds. I don’t know what boards they were on but I’d bet that is they’d all been on dugouts the problem would have been ten times worse - and some would have capsized and not been able to get back in again. If they’d had rudders, and they’d been chop, many more would have capsized. Rudders poorly used encourages broaching.
Ever watched a fat person trying to get back into an Ace, in wind and chop? Especially if wearing a pfd. If you have a big belly, or anything on your chest/belly, it becomes almost impossible. Very dangerous. For this reason alone, never mind the weathervaning, dugouts will never be good for beginners. Falling is a part of learning to SUP. And a board you can’t get back onto is a deathtrap.
But don’t take my word for it. Put a plump beginner in an Ace in windy conditions (or in any ruddered dugout) and watch what happens. Just make sure you have a solid rescue plan.
I was just recounting a time I saw beginners getting blown by the wind. I agree--rudders aren't going to help people who can barely paddle yet, Aces would have been worse, etc.
Yes, I know, and I was agreeing with your point. I just phrased it clumsily. I thought you were making a good observation and was just adding to it to include the issues of rudders and dugouts. Beginners even on surf SUPs in wind is a orinlem. Beginners on dugouts with rudders would be an even bigger problem!
So for this reason, I contend (and this is aimed at photofr not you) the vast majority of SUPs will never be dugouts. Which will save SUP from becoming merely stand-up canoeing - hard luck ICF :)
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This thing is getting as bad as the Trump thread..... ;D
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ukgm- are you sure your agenda in arguing against very narrow race boards wasn’t that if they are allowed it was going to be impossible for *you* to win at a high level?
Whenever I see currently active competitors advocating a particular rule, it’s funny how often that rule benefits them personally...
This is not to say that the “Jim Terrell” prediction is wrong - I believe that we are almost there, really, with so many of the top paddlers on narrow dugouts that do not appeal at all to general public, and won’t look anything remotely like a beginner would buy as their first board. But perhaps it is inevitable with our sport that as we move towards the Olympics, we will end up with competitors who in age and physique resemble gymnasts. Or perhaps if board regulations change, they will all like look like C1 canoeists. Either way it will exclude 99.9% of the population from being competitive. Unlike soccer, for instance, where the two best players in the work (Ronaldo and Messi) are of wildly different builds, weights, and statures. THAT is what a popular, inclusive sport with a future looks like... a person who plays soccer can dream that no matter what your natural body shape, you could potentially compete at the highest level.
Sadly, ukgm, despite you being an ultra-fit semi-pro (or perhaps in some ways even pro) sportsperson, you are soon going to be getting your butt kicked by 15 year-old girls. Maybe that’s the way it is supposed to go. The sport was invented by heavy old geezers, basically. (Look at who was winning the first Battle of the Paddle or Maliko/M2O races etc.) But the kids were always going to take it over. So maybe ask the kids what they would like their races and equipment to be like, instead of having competitive old men setting the agenda. The writing is on the wall for it as a mass participation race sport anyway. Which is not to say that there can’t be mass participation *events* (ie. where most people are just doing it for fun rather than with any intention of being seriously competitive). There can and will be.
Just create a little corner for the handful of really competitive pro kids to do their thing on their weird SUP race canoes that no-one else is interested in - alongside photofr, who weighs about the same as they do ;) -and let the rest of us hang out and have a good time in the main event on the same boards we can paddle just about anywhere at the weekend or with friends. Messi and Ronaldo casually competing together, if they want to. Or just cruising along if they’d rather do that.
Your 15-year-old girl reference made me think--is it bad if racing gives an advantage to them? More generally, women are much lighter and have better balance than men (or at least have lower centers of gravity). Maybe the "narrow boards give lightweight men an unfair advantage over heavier men" problem (and it's a valid one) should be rephrased as, "allowing narrow boards helps put women on a more equal footing with men".
I think one of the reasons distance running got popular for the masses was that women are more equal to men in distance running than in most other sports, so distance running races could attract women participants more so than sports that reward qualities such as raw strength that men are much better at.
At least here in Portland, it seems there are as many (or more) women paddling than men outside of racing. The percentage of men in races is higher here than in general paddling, but racing is still popular with women. Fiona Wilde just won a Gorge Performance race here (overall winner) beating some very good men. It seems like if racing is going to survive, maybe the focus should be on attracting the many women who already paddle. I'd think the idea of racing on fast 14' boards that women can handle better than many men would be a lot more attractive than forcing 110 lb. women to race (barge-like for them) boards that are prohibited by race rules from being narrower than the ones 170 lb. men can handle.
Even large women paddlers fall into the "lightweight" category of people who can comfortably paddle narrow boards. Allowing narrow boards in racing makes it tough for medium-or-heavier men, but it could make racing more attractive to the female half of the population. Even though racing divisions are typically by gender, it still seems that women like participating in sports (distance running, swimming...) where they're on a more equal footing with men.
Going back to the original topic of the thread, then maybe this leads to heavier men who want to compete in races turning to the long, dugout boards and becoming a large enough group that races accommodate them. Or maybe races never will accommodate them, and they just race for fun, knowing they're too heavy to be competitive. Or they skip racing, but for every heavy man who leaves racing due to the boards not favoring them, 2 or 3 women start racing due to that same boards working well for them.
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Now we're talking pdx. The distance paddling crew I go out with there are more women than men. The only drawback is that most of these women do not like dealing with a 14' board. They're mostly on 12'6 boards. Size does matter but the other way around ;D
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Im not sure what your point was there, photofr, but ...
My point was:
How funny that you are assuming that I do not venture in the Ocean on a SUP!
(So I placed a few GPS screenshots - just above - on my dugout boards)
Also interesting and kind of strange that you stated, "Let the rest of us hang out and have a good time…”
(What makes you even think that I do not have a good time… I mean, does my GPS screenshot remotely look like I am NOT HAVING FUN?)
You also insinuated that I couldn’t go anywhere on my dugout board(s).
(I simply beg to differ: paddling 10km offshore was merely a routine for me)
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Photofr- I didn’t say any of those things that you are saying I did.
Maybe it’s a “lost in translation” thing.
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...
But perhaps it is inevitable with our sport that as we move towards the Olympics, we will end up with competitors who in age and physique resemble gymnasts.
...
Might be better than competitors that look like you or UKGM. No?
;)
</duck>
1) He’s a training god who probably has muscles even on his testicles.
2) But you may have missed the jist of my intent here. If someone like me can even approach a decent standard - even in local races (and a coupla years ago, a couple of times I beat a load of guys who were literally less than half my age by substantial margins) then something is probably wrong. The kids SHOULD be kicking my ass. And with the right training and equipment (not boards made for middle-aged men) they will.
1) I only train to continue the fruitless war between me and gravity. In the end, it just brings you down........ :D
2) I agree with you. Me and a load of the regulars always talk about this. At the last two big races in the UK, 75% of the top 10 was still made up of those who were 40+. Sure, most of those are technically skilled with 5+ years in the sport but in reality, its still a ridiculous situation to be for a competitive sport.
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Btw - excellent point, pdxmike.
Many of the top women paddle in a different way than men. They kinda “ripple” their body, especially their torso, in a much more exaggerated way than men do, and thereby turn the stroke into more of a lower body exercise than an upper body one. Annabel Anderson commented that SUP was more a lower body exercise than an upper body one. Boys tend to do the “ripple stroke” too, but as they age seem to develop a stiffer stroke and lose that flexibility. But maybe the future will be the super-narrow boards and the “female” paddling style - whether you are a man or a woman. It’s pretty incredible how close the top teenage girls are to the top adult males, especially in certain formats of race. If they had boards made specifically for them then the gap could be even closer. And pretty much *all* of the paddle technique coaching is led by men, and so the technique currently taught is led by what men are designed for (and is mostly based on the stroke men use when seated in an outrigger canoe, which may be very different from what is ideal if you are standing up). Perhaps when some of the top paddle coaches are women they will encourage a different way of paddling that will play to the strengths of the female body instead, and take the sport, and women’s participation in it, to new heights.
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ukgm dropped down from a 26 Maliko to a 24.5 All Star and noticed substantial gains in speed. He intends to drop down further next year. That is not unusual and is expected based on what other racers are doing. He evolved and improved his balance year over year.
Its really just an effect you see that I call 'technological coercion'. I've been forced into a position whereby I currently have a board I actually really like to race on and paddle but I need to move on as my peers are still two inches narrower than I am. If you take the likes of Kai and Connor into account, natural selection is working against me but that's the same in any sport you're not suitable for. It's just natural selection and I know that's not me as the replacement race board I can consider for next year is probably one or two at best. I compensate (for now) in that I have a regimented training regime in any given week (although my stroke is still improving year on year). If most of the guys I paddle against actually trained properly, I'd be further behind with a gap best measured with a sundial.
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ukgm - it sounds like you are about to reach the point where you go so narrow that you start going slower in real world situations. As Travis’s latest video says, the best board for you isn’t the narrowest board you can use, it’s the narrowest board you can be comfortable on. The best elite guys aren’t fast because they use super-narrow boards, they use super-narrow boards because to them they don’t seem at all tippy.
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ukgm - it sounds like you are about to reach the point where you go so narrow that you start going slower in real world situations. As Travis’s latest video says, the best board for you isn’t the narrowest board you can use, it’s the narrowest board you can be comfortable on. The best elite guys aren’t fast because they use super-narrow boards, they use super-narrow boards because to them they don’t seem at all tippy.
I completely agree. I'll be trialling the Allstar 23.5 at some point in the future but on volume alone and what I know already, that's likely to be my absolute limit. I think even a 23 is a step too far for me.
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I went to a 23 for a bit but abandoned it after a few months. It really took any enjoyment out of paddling. I only ever paddled it because I needed to, not because I wanted to. If I were competing for wins I’d probably have stuck with it but there’s no board I’ll be ever be able to average 6mph on.
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Let's talk numbers...
Here's my scaling system:
Stability 2.0 = stability of a current 21.5" board
Stability 3.0 = stability of a current 23" board
Stability 5.0 = stability of a current 25" board
Stability 7.0 = stability of most 27" boards
MY GOAL?
I wanted to point out that a future 23" board could have the stability of 6 (based on the above scale)
HOW?
Strategies from other sports.
WHAT HAPPENED?
Sadly, very few can imagine that a future 23" could be more stable than their current board.
WHY?
Perhaps because people are just humans; stuck in their ways, always imagining themselves as the only Ocean Paddlers in the World.
Pointless -
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I reckon it has to stay fun and practical.
For my purposes, storage limitations and transport (multiple boards on a car) I find dugouts neither. But I’m watching with interest to see where they go.
I find the wide open back of this years Fanatic Strike interesting. Like a modern sailboat. Could be very stable with that parallel outline. Meaning on could go narrower.
(https://www.kite-shop.ch/media/images/org/fanatic-strike-2018-21.png)
Since water would so rapidly flush out the back I don’t see the point of such high sidewalls.
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I went to a 23 for a bit but abandoned it after a few months. It really took any enjoyment out of paddling. I only ever paddled it because I needed to, not because I wanted to. If I were competing for wins I’d probably have stuck with it but there’s no board I’ll be ever be able to average 6mph on.
:) :) :)
I could say exactly the same thing!
https://youtu.be/_VrFV5r8cs0
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I reckon it has to stay fun and practical.
For my purposes, storage limitations and transport (multiple boards on a car) I find dugouts neither. But I’m watching with interest to see where they go.
I find the wide open back of this years Fanatic Strike interesting. Like a modern sailboat. Could be very stable with that parallel outline. Meaning on could go narrower.
(https://www.kite-shop.ch/media/images/org/fanatic-strike-2018-21.png)
Since water would so rapidly flush out the back I don’t see the point of such high sidewalls.
I've been keeping a keen eye on this one via some links I have to that company. Nobody is saying much about it but I suspect the volume will be too low for me. It looks great.
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Let's talk numbers...
Here's my scaling system:
Stability 2.0 = stability of a current 21.5" board
Stability 3.0 = stability of a current 23" board
Stability 5.0 = stability of a current 25" board
Stability 7.0 = stability of most 27" boards
MY GOAL?
I wanted to point out that a future 23" board could have the stability of 6 (based on the above scale)
HOW?
Strategies from other sports.
WHAT HAPPENED?
Sadly, very few can imagine that a future 23" could be more stable than their current board.
WHY?
Perhaps because people are just humans; stuck in their ways, always imagining themselves as the only Ocean Paddlers in the World.
Pointless -
I don't know if you've ever been employed as a product designer but I can tell you that producing a marketable sports product is a complex thing that goes beyond just the criteria of designing whats fastest.
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Let's talk numbers...
Here's my scaling system:
Stability 2.0 = stability of a current 21.5" board
Stability 3.0 = stability of a current 23" board
Stability 5.0 = stability of a current 25" board
Stability 7.0 = stability of most 27" boards
MY GOAL?
I wanted to point out that a future 23" board could have the stability of 6 (based on the above scale)
HOW?
Strategies from other sports.
WHAT HAPPENED?
Sadly, very few can imagine that a future 23" could be more stable than their current board.
WHY?
Perhaps because people are just humans; stuck in their ways, always imagining themselves as the only Ocean Paddlers in the World.
Pointless -
Photofr- put on a backpack with 30kg of weight in it and then get in a 23” wide 14ft dugout. You might get some sense of the problem that heavier people are dealing with. Your experiences are not ours because you are off-the-scale light for an adult male. It’s not because we are stupid or narrow-minded or inexperienced. It is because we have tried what you are suggesting and the results FOR US were not good. But I’m sure that we are all pleased that you enjoy these very specialist boards, and indeed could go far narrower than is currently available. In this respect you are very lucky. Now, please stop lecturing us - and maybe listen a little more carefully to our experiences and try to understand them as we have listened to yours and tried to understand them.
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I reckon it has to stay fun and practical.
For my purposes, storage limitations and transport (multiple boards on a car) I find dugouts neither. But I’m watching with interest to see where they go.
I find the wide open back of this years Fanatic Strike interesting. Like a modern sailboat. Could be very stable with that parallel outline. Meaning on could go narrower.
(https://www.kite-shop.ch/media/images/org/fanatic-strike-2018-21.png)
Since water would so rapidly flush out the back I don’t see the point of such high sidewalls.
Interesting. But I think this concept has been tried before, many moons ago, and the problem was buoy turns, downwind and surfing. I suspect that the Sprint has taken this idea as far as it can practically go and still be popular with the elite racers’ various needs. There aren’t many straight pure flatwater races. But I’d love to demo one, nevertheless.
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Let's talk numbers...
Here's my scaling system:
Stability 2.0 = stability of a current 21.5" board
Stability 3.0 = stability of a current 23" board
Stability 5.0 = stability of a current 25" board
Stability 7.0 = stability of most 27" boards
MY GOAL?
I wanted to point out that a future 23" board could have the stability of 6 (based on the above scale)
HOW?
Strategies from other sports.
WHAT HAPPENED?
Sadly, very few can imagine that a future 23" could be more stable than their current board.
WHY?
Perhaps because people are just humans; stuck in their ways, always imagining themselves as the only Ocean Paddlers in the World.
Pointless -
Hey, it’s a noble goal.
Maybe you have a great idea. Go ahead try it. You know plenty of surfski people.
Even if your surfski idea may be innovative the irony is that you are, in an odd way, sticking to the ways you know.
;)
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Interesting. But I think this concept has been tried before, many moons ago, and the problem was buoy turns, downwind and surfing. I suspect that the Sprint has taken this idea as far as it can practically go and still be popular with the elite racers’ various needs. There aren’t many straight pure flatwater races. But I’d love to demo one, nevertheless.
Arthur Arutkin is racing one. He's a pretty tall strong [windsurfer build] guy. He's probably 6'2.
He's been at a high level in SUP for enough years now to get what he wants from Werner Gnigler (sp?). So I'd presume it works.
I'd think bouy kick turns would be awesome on the wide tail. OK, it'll sink a bit. I also think DW (the tail shape, I haven't seen much of the nose but it does seem to lifted out of the water more than previous Strikes) would work OK. Water might slosh in but only if you're going too slow and it'd empty so fast.
I'd like to try one. The boxy sidewalls are not to my taste but I like the open back. Modern planning sailboat shapes know a thing or two about the need to rapidly flush water to not be bogged down.
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Then again, A10, your RS shouldn't have a problem flushing water from the deck. That is such a simple design. (almost copying the Rogue Rage)
Simple is good.
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Then again, A10, your RS shouldn't have a problem flushing water from the deck. That is such a simple design. (almost copying the Rogue Rage)
Simple is good.
Yep. What the RS has done so well is to balance volume in front of the handle with volume behind it. Everything has been kept simple and balanced, with nothing too extreme anywhere. The issue that the new Strike might face in rougher waters is that where the tail volume and nose volume are very unequal, this can cause pitching. I wish I could remember the same of the design/brand several years ago that was like this. Anyway, the high sidewalls might be necessary because of this pitching issue. If the tail is regularly getting swamped then it’s going to act like an anchor. And low volume tails certainly buoy turn, but they can be a bit unforgiving for the heavy-footed. But SUP design is all about balance and attention to details, so I’ll reserve judgment until I’ve tried one.
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Then again, A10, your RS shouldn't have a problem flushing water from the deck. That is such a simple design. (almost copying the Rogue Rage)
Simple is good.
Simple is good, I love the open back design in it's variants. I've seen it work magic on flat water boards
but as A10 mentioned, it is not new and I have yet seen one that works really well in open water and downwind conditions.
It's not like Mark haven't tried this design before but it didn't seem to work well in certain conditions. (pic below pre RS prototype)
Parallel outline surly won't help manuverablitly, even when stepping far back on a tail. with so little volume back there might be a challenge to control
the board, maybe Arthur can make it work somehow but I don't see this design giving him an edge in open water conditions.
BTW, on this particular shot where you see the sic prototype, Kenny Kaneko beat Kai and Caper on their Maliko and Javelin, but it looked fairly flat water conditions.
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Since water would so rapidly flush out the back I don’t see the point of such high sidewalls.
Yugi, I would suspect that in addition to limiting water flow over the deck, the high sidewalls also help maintain rigidity. It's a really cool design.
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You could always just stand up in an Epic V8. I suspect it would blow the doors off any SUP design. But then you could sit down and use a double ended wing blade and go much faster. Hey, we just invented the surfski!
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Let's talk numbers...
Here's my scaling system:
Stability 2.0 = stability of a current 21.5" board
Stability 3.0 = stability of a current 23" board
Stability 5.0 = stability of a current 25" board
Stability 7.0 = stability of most 27" boards
MY GOAL?
I wanted to point out that a future 23" board could have the stability of 6 (based on the above scale)
HOW?
Strategies from other sports.
WHAT HAPPENED?
Sadly, very few can imagine that a future 23" could be more stable than their current board.
WHY?
Perhaps because people are just humans; stuck in their ways, always imagining themselves as the only Ocean Paddlers in the World.
Pointless -
Hey, it’s a noble goal.
Maybe you have a great idea. Go ahead try it. You know plenty of surfski people.
Even if your surfski idea may be innovative the irony is that you are, in an odd way, sticking to the ways you know.
;)
Perhaps I am - but then... consider this:
The end result would be derived from a surfski, but I assure you that the end product will look more like couple of boards we have had around since 2012 - so in that respect, it would still look like a SUP board - even though "certain people" will say:
- Oh my God - it's a dugout board
- Oh my God - it's got a rudder (because 5 people know rudders do not work, especially for surfskis)
- Hell no... this thing is too light (because we all know it will fly away by itself when left unattended)!
- Wow, dude, I'm gonna hurt myself, because it's not flat (even after I add foam).
- Heck, I'll never be able to remount this "thing" - even after I assure them that sidewalls will be lowered.
- Oh... LOOK...a flat water board... because dismissing is actually easier than imagination / anticipation.
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I'm not sitting down for sports until 10 years after you do Pono (or I break my back). I'm still have a f'ing desk jockey job where I get all the sitting I need.
Burchas,
Strike is Fanatic's flatwater board. Not their allwater.
Kenny's lightly dugout SIC is
a) likely just a production a bit scooped out
b) likely not so sloping towards stern deck
c) not a wide open back
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Photof,
I'm a total expert at remounting. I seem to have been given an amazing amount of opportunities to practice it. I got that part down pat.
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Or they'll just say "Yuck"...... ::)
A rose by any other name is still a rose.
Canoe
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Forget surf skis. How about dugout "pedal" boards?
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How's your floating step machine doing, Pono. Getting a lot of use?
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Burchas,
Strike is Fanatic's flatwater board. Not their allwater.
I figured as much by the deck pad placement, but was referring to your comment it will do ok downwind ( which is probably right for light protected water conditions)
Lincoln Dews has been riding a similar design by Deep lately.
Kenny's lightly dugout SIC is
a) likely just a production a bit scooped out
b) likely not so sloping towards stern deck
c) not a wide open back
a) thought so too first time as it reminded me the FX but rails and tail is very different so unlikely production.
b/c) seems to be enough for the depth of the deck to clear the water.
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ukgm dropped down from a 26 Maliko to a 24.5 All Star and noticed substantial gains in speed. He intends to drop down further next year. That is not unusual and is expected based on what other racers are doing. He evolved and improved his balance year over year.
Its really just an effect you see that I call 'technological coercion'. I've been forced into a position whereby I currently have a board I actually really like to race on and paddle but I need to move on as my peers are still two inches narrower than I am.
Yep.
Interestingly your body does adapt to riding a narrower board if you stay on that board in all conditions. Took me about 6 months to get comfortable on my 23. But the past year have stayed 100% dry. So would suspect you to be able to do ok dropping from a 24.5AS down to a 23.5AS. The tippy difference between the 24.5 and 23 is significant -> but the 23.5 with volume over 300 should be much better suited for you. Your technique will have to adapt a bit more for a faster tip.
Personally really enjoy the 23 as it is my goto board for anything not super rough or too windy. But give a narrow Sprint a try. The dropped deck really makes the 21.5 only a bit less stable than a 23 All Star. The 2018 with the filled in tail should provide just enough float for you. ;)
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You could always just stand up in an Epic V8. I suspect it would blow the doors off any SUP design. But then you could sit down and use a double ended wing blade and go much faster. Hey, we just invented the surfski!
It was pretty funny on a V6, but there's just no room for my big feet :)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2014-images/2014-Sep-11-Epic-Day-in/i-fD9qQgN/1/76b8fc92/L/epic-013-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2014-images/2014-Sep-11-Epic-Day-in/i-fD9qQgN/A)
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Yeah a canoe is a canoe. Or surfski..... But not really suited for SUP as there is way too much wind drag to deal with. The low slung dugout designs like the 2017 Sprint 21.5 are much better suited in my estimation. ;)
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Just because most of you are stock on the image of a surfski having a huge amount of volume doesn't mean they all do. It sure as heck isn't what I have in mind for a SUP.
Take my current surfski... it actually sits lower in the water than my Ace 14x25, Ace GT, Allstar 14x25, and Nelo 14x23 - and I dare say Sprint 14x23 (2016 model).
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560M/i-sTkrQhz/0/beab581d/L/1544-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560M/i-sTkrQhz/A)
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This is the 2016 Sprint 21.5 with the standing position maybe a couple of inches above waterline. It is pretty low slung like my 2016 AS23. Since then -> SB added a bunch of volume for heavier riders like what Nelo did to your 2.0 version.
But if you look closely at my canoe pic you might notice that my standing position is actually a couple of inches BELOW waterline. Now that is what low COG is all about. Just need to lower the freeboard and keep the built-in flotation so it will not sink. Slap a fin on and a drain and there you go. No need for hollow construction.
Just remove the seat in the marathon racing canoe pic below for a production unit available right now. Easy peasy and no doubt super fast on flat. ;)
Edit: Your boards have way too much volume (Ace 14x25, Ace GT, Allstar 14x25, and Nelo 14x23 - and I dare say Sprint 14x23 (2016 model). We calculated based on your weight at 118.8 lbs you need a super low volume board that is not available on the market today. You have to go custom build or use a junior sized board.
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How's your floating step machine doing, Pono. Getting a lot of use?
It's exhausting. Fast as hell, but holy crap, it kills me. I've reached over 7mph in short bursts. Only gets used when the grandkids are around--perfect for tiring them out to the point that they don't stay up talking about videogames and "magic" cards.
Right now it would be pretty good though, it's extremely fast in high current but it wipes me out even faster.
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Now we're talking pdx. The distance paddling crew I go out with there are more women than men. The only drawback is that most of these women do not like dealing with a 14' board. They're mostly on 12'6 boards. Size does matter but the other way around ;D
Women around here used to be almost only on 12-6's, but that's changed, for racing and general paddling. I'm sure the availability of narrower 14' boards has helped that. There wasn't a lot of incentive for women to switch from 12-6 to 14 when most races only had a 12-6 women's division, and when the typical 14' race board was 27" or 28" wide. Women, especially, can be better off on a 14' that's slightly narrower than a 12-6, but with the same stability, because being narrower is especially helpful for paddling straight when you lack height and wide shoulders. I'd guess many more women around here will switch to 14s as more narrow, lightweight 14s come on the used market.
Paddling here means flatwater paddling, so it's conceivable women are moving to 14s here more quickly than they may be in other places.
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Now we're talking pdx. The distance paddling crew I go out with there are more women than men. The only drawback is that most of these women do not like dealing with a 14' board. They're mostly on 12'6 boards. Size does matter but the other way around ;D
Women around here used to be almost only on 12-6's, but that's changed, for racing and general paddling. I'm sure the availability of narrower 14' boards has helped that. There wasn't a lot of incentive for women to switch from 12-6 to 14 when most races only had a 12-6 women's division, and when the typical 14' race board was 27" or 28" wide. Women, especially, can be better off on a 14' that's slightly narrower than a 12-6, but with the same stability, because being narrower is especially helpful for paddling straight when you lack height and wide shoulders. I'd guess many more women around here will switch to 14s as more narrow, lightweight 14s come on the used market.
Paddling here means flatwater paddling, so it's conceivable women are moving to 14s here more quickly than they may be in other places.
It's interesting you mention more women moving to 14's as more races are open to the 14' women's division and the stigma of that size being for men only diminishes. I've had my Naish Javelin LE 14x23 on the market for a while. The last person who came for a test drive was a woman. She took it out on the ocean. Came back and liked how fast the board was but didn't like how HIGH she was standing on the water. The board volume is 232L and she was about 5'4 and around 125 lbs. I suggested she look into a dugout board and guess what she said???
She didn't want to paddle a canoe! ;D
Link below to my board for sale in case you know some ladies looking for a 14'. Thanks.
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,33064.0.html
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Now we're talking pdx. The distance paddling crew I go out with there are more women than men. The only drawback is that most of these women do not like dealing with a 14' board. They're mostly on 12'6 boards. Size does matter but the other way around ;D
Women around here used to be almost only on 12-6's, but that's changed, for racing and general paddling. I'm sure the availability of narrower 14' boards has helped that. There wasn't a lot of incentive for women to switch from 12-6 to 14 when most races only had a 12-6 women's division, and when the typical 14' race board was 27" or 28" wide. Women, especially, can be better off on a 14' that's slightly narrower than a 12-6, but with the same stability, because being narrower is especially helpful for paddling straight when you lack height and wide shoulders. I'd guess many more women around here will switch to 14s as more narrow, lightweight 14s come on the used market.
Paddling here means flatwater paddling, so it's conceivable women are moving to 14s here more quickly than they may be in other places.
It's interesting you mention more women moving to 14's as more races are open to the 14' women's division and the stigma of that size being for men only diminishes. I've had my Naish Javelin LE 14x23 on the market for a while. The last person who came for a test drive was a woman. She took it out on the ocean. Came back and liked how fast the board was but didn't like how HIGH she was standing on the water. The board volume is 232L and she was about 5'4 and around 125 lbs. I suggested she look into a dugout board and guess what she said???
She didn't want to paddle a canoe! ;D
Link below to my board for sale in case you know some ladies looking for a 14'. Thanks.
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,33064.0.html
That's a nice board - TOO BAD the center of gravity isn't lowered more. :)
On a more serious note: This board is a gem - Actually quite fun!
Looks like a great price from where I am sitting.
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photofr - I love this board when going upwind/downwind or flatwater but it really sucks in side chop. Not sure if it were "dug out" it would be much better since it's the thickness/height and boxiness of the rail that seems to thwart the straight line speed in side chop. Since most of the coastal paddling I do involves side chop, I'm letting go of this board.
I also had a great time surfing this board. I remember at one of the Battle of the Paddles in Doheny, when the waves were pumping, I was catching 300 yard waves while fading back and forth down the line all the way to the beach. I think this is where having a flat deck and being higher over the rail helps with surfing a raceboard. It seems that when you are standing lower on the board relative to the rails, you lose the leverage to get from rail to rail efficiently.
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Paddling here means flatwater paddling, so it's conceivable women are moving to 14s here more quickly than they may be in other places.
In the UK, there aren't that many active female racers but the participation data of those we have says so far its holding steady at 50/50 between 12'6 and 14ft.
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Just because most of you are stock on the image of a surfski having a huge amount of volume doesn't mean they all do. It sure as heck isn't what I have in mind for a SUP.
Take my current surfski... it actually sits lower in the water than my Ace 14x25, Ace GT, Allstar 14x25, and Nelo 14x23 - and I dare say Sprint 14x23 (2016 model).
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560M/i-sTkrQhz/0/beab581d/L/1544-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560M/i-sTkrQhz/A)
Just bear in mind you're not the only ocean ski paddler here (and certainly not the only creative people). I raced surf ski's in surf lifesaving back in the 90's and I currently paddle an Epic V10 (and i'm not the only one in this thread who does) so you're not shining a torch in a darkened room here. Thinking a board could look like a ski isn't a revelation and I don't believe in my experience its a marketable concept if it were. The only thing I would say it highlights is that the cost of boards should be lower.
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photofr- if you’ve got such a great idea for a board design and it will revolutionise SUP and enable us all able to paddle 23” 14ft boards in any conditions enjoyably then
WHY DON’T YOU BUILD IT?
There are some very good custom shapers in Europe who’d make your design for you. And then instead of lecturing us all, and bemoaning the fact that we aren’t convinced by your arguments, you could show us once and for all the error of our ways.
Go on - put your money where your mouth is.
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He hasn't recovered from the last time he did, I doubt he's going to accept your challenge any time soon.
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You may want to consider that "my" current idea has (to an extent) been created, built and is currently on the water. I have even shared the concept with you guys, but you are still arguing about most of them.
Take stability: I say lowering standing area will yield crazy stability, and all you can say is... 23" is too narrow.
Take rudder: I say it can handle anything you throw at it... you say it can't.
The current board is my friend's plywood board - which proves both of the above facts, and more.
To surfski paddlers on this board:
Raise your hands and show yourselves if you have ever paddled a ski on a good downwind with a ski that's about 1/2 the volume of a V10, or V10 Sport. I am asking, because then - and only then - you would be able to visualise how a low volume ski can actually handle super rough conditions with more ease than you can imagine.
The point is sharing ideas to better visualise something so that we can better adapt our crafts to the environment and our needs. The point is not to lecture.
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He hasn't recovered from the last time he did, I doubt he's going to accept your challenge any time soon.
:)
Well, we said that the thing we don’t like with dugouts is weathervaning. So he bought a dugout and guess what? He’s having problems with it weathervaning. Who’d have thunk it?
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He has a point there.
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1) You may want to consider that "my" current idea has (to an extent) been created, built and is currently on the water. I have even shared the concept with you guys, but you are still arguing about most of them.
2) Take stability: I say lowering standing area will yield crazy stability, and all you can say is... 23" is too narrow.
3) Take rudder: I say it can handle anything you throw at it... you say it can't.
4) To surfski paddlers on this board:
Raise your hands and show yourselves if you have ever paddled a ski on a good downwind with a ski that's about 1/2 the volume of a V10, or V10 Sport. I am asking, because then - and only then - you would be able to visualise how a low volume ski can actually handle super rough conditions with more ease than you can imagine.
5) The point is sharing ideas to better visualise something so that we can better adapt our crafts to the environment and our needs. The point is not to lecture.
1) If it exists, it certainly isn't successful generally in SUP. It isn't where the sales are - possibly since most races that would see the greatest number of participants don't require such a design. Again, commercialisation success and performance aren't always synonymous with each other.
2) I don't think anyone said that it doesn't. You're cherry picking only some of the responses you've had.
3) Again, you're cherry picking the responses that have been given. I say that rudders are unnecessary for most SUP races and actually obscure poor technique. Over use of a rudder due to poor technique actually slows a craft down. It's something you hear when guys paddle an OC1 then switch to Va'a.
4) You made a strawman argument. We weren't arguing this. (I personally said that a ski design SUP isn't marketable to the masses and would be a specialised design. Nothing wrong with that but its not going to be the game changer you think it is. The reality is that several companies have made hollow fast boards. Its actually easy to do by applying well know physics and hydrodynamics principles to a computer model. The only thing is, when they do it, it isn't always very good - possibly as humans aren't computers and paddling is chaos in action). I'm not sure now if you're arguing about the merits of a ski like design or merely highlighting the concerns of a market that doesn't meet low volume paddlers expectations.
5) I agree completely. But you've been pretty much doing this to us all the way through to be fair.
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Perhaps we can all chill a bit, and see if we can come up with a single aspect that may yield a great improvement on future boards.
DIRECTIONS
Forget dugout issues, tall sidewalls, construction methods, prices, drainage issues... in fact, don't look at anything else but #1 and #2 below.
STABILITY vs WIDTH
1. Currently, most average 24" are considered a little tricky in conditions like DW, upwind, sidewind, or chaotic water - at least for average-built paddlers / heavier paddlers.
2. Currently, most boards have a standing area that is 1 to 8 cm above water level.
QUESTION
Everything else being equal, can everyone here see how a 24" board would be plenty stable for most - if we lowered the standing area to 4 to 7 cm BELOW water level?
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It wouldn’t be stable enough for most, or even a majority of SUPers. But it would be a lot more stable than most 24” wide boards, and probably stable enough for a majority of keen racers - assuming the volume overall is enough (and that’s the tricky bit...).
No-one has been arguing with you about this. I’m not sure where you have got the idea that we don’t accept that being at or below the waterline gives additional stability. I haven’t read one person disputing that here.
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"The end result would be derived from a surfski, but I assure you that the end product will look more like couple of boards we have had around since 2012 - so in that respect, it would still look like a SUP board"
"WHY DON’T YOU BUILD IT?
There are some very good custom shapers in Europe who’d make your design for you. And then instead of lecturing us all, and bemoaning the fact that we aren’t convinced by your arguments, you could show us once and for all the error of our ways.
Go on - put your money where your mouth is."
"You may want to consider that "my" current idea has (to an extent) been created, built and is currently on the water. I have even shared the concept with you guys, but you are still arguing about most of them."
"The current board is my friend's plywood board"
Our actual canoe has even a lower standing height below waterline as there are no thick wood struts and wood slats needed to stand on. Would also expect any hollow board to have a higher standing position. Our canoe bottom is just thin structural foam btwn glass and gel maybe 1/4" to 1/2" thick total max.
We will all see if he ever makes an end product that looks anything like SUP boards from 2012 -> as his plywood stand-up concept looks just like a canoe and not like any SUP.
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https://vimeo.com/66744386
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I do wonder why the current crop of dugouts look like they do. Might be a mean thing to say about shapers, but it looks like they copy each other. The key benefit is low standing position, both for stability and better force angle. A board with a 1/4" divynicell sandwich for the bottom, slightly taller than standard rails for adequate buoyancy and stiffness, a wave deflector up front and OC1 bilge drainers should work fine. Why is everyone building slab-sided clogs? What is the supposed advantage?
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That's exactly it:
Huge sidewalls are going to be needed to keep that water out... unless someone starts using a bailer. But then, as soon as someone uses a user operated bailer, we are going to see the center of gravity go down even lower - much lower than current boards.
I wish EAGLE and AREA would measure their underfoot-board-thickness to see how far we could run with that idea :)
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You are just arguing with yourself, photofr.
I’ll say it YET AGAIN.
No-one is arguing that you couldn’t make a surfski you could stand on for SUP.
And no-one is arguing with the proposition that a lowered standing area gives extra stability.
But I wouldn’t buy a board like that because it wouldn’t work for what I want to do.
The Jim Terrell vid that Eagle posted is very good. Isn’t that pretty much exactly the board you’d like to have (in a wider version), photography? Great. Get one made. But it would suck for what I want a board to do.
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Photo you are really just arguing with yourself and tossing out red herrings and putting up straw man arguments. ;)
But this is why Sunova has a high sidewall. Tardrew is simply hauling on that UL and just basically steers a bit from bump to bump. Looks so nice.
https://vimeo.com/203793658
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Pretty modest sidewall compared to some I've seen lately, but even that one looks excessive. No wave deflector in the bow. The steering looks like something I'd make--works of primitive man.
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Seems to reduce swamping while adding float and rigidity. Keeps speed up and water out. Amazing how quick he passed that Ace. Really sweet glide that board.
But yeah a deflector would help. Like how quickly any water that did slop in got expelled quick vs filling up like in some other ULs.
That and the Bullet 17.4 would be a killer DW combo.
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That's exactly it:
Huge sidewalls are going to be needed to keep that water out... unless someone starts using a bailer. But then, as soon as someone uses a user operated bailer, we are going to see the center of gravity go down even lower - much lower than current boards.
I wish EAGLE and AREA would measure their underfoot-board-thickness to see how far we could run with that idea :)
You are just arguing with yourself, photofr.
I’ll say it YET AGAIN.
No-one is arguing that you couldn’t make a surfski you could stand on for SUP.
And no-one is arguing with the proposition that a lowered standing area gives extra stability.
But I wouldn’t buy a board like that because it wouldn’t work for what I want to do.
The Jim Terrell vid that Eagle posted is very good. Isn’t that pretty much exactly the board you’d like to have (in a wider version), photography? Great. Get one made. But it would suck for what I want a board to do.
Listen AREA:
The first part of my comment was directed at Pono - and sadly not at you.
The only thing directed at you was for you to measure your boards - so that you could get a feel for what I am talking about. Heck, never mind -
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Photo you are really just arguing with yourself and tossing out red herrings and putting up straw man arguments. ;)
But this is why Sunova has a high sidewall. Tardrew is simply hauling on that UL and just basically steers a bit from bump to bump. Looks so nice.
https://vimeo.com/203793658
Somewhere along the line, you guys have LOST me.
Obviously, you like:
- That video
- The UL
- The Rudder
- The Dugout idea
But if I understand most of you:
- You do not race (or not much)
- But you want a board designed for the current racing venues
But perhaps YOU are missing my point:
- Set aside racing
- Enjoy what makes paddling fun - even if it's gonna include a UL, a rudder, and a dugout board.
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Never had any problem with that 18 dugout board or the dugout Sprint 21.5 or paddling a canoe -> so you must be really quite confused to think anything otherwise.
You should know I have no problems with any narrow board that has a low COG. But am also a fan of surf nosed boards and deep vee boards like the Think etc. Actually like riding all types of boards -> as tippy and weathervaning etc. are not much of a problem at all. 8)
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Yep, photofr- you must indeed be very confused.
I was one of the first people in the UK to own an UL SUP. 10 years ago or more, now. And it had a rudder.
I currently own two UL custom SUPs, and one of them is my day-to-day board.
So, no, I clearly don’t like unlimited boards at all...
And I own a Starboard Ace 14x25 Carbon. Have done for the last 3 years.
So clearly I’m not open-minded about dugouts at all, am I?
Yep. You sure are confused.
But to make it easier for you to understand, this video shows my idea of heaven on a SUP. Having watched the “downwinder” on Crete today live (the Euro Tour), with most paddlers using boards with recessed decks (although the boards with only a fairly minor recess (like the Sprint, or even the RS, JP etc) rather than full-on dugouts (like the Ace) seemed to be the thing to be on today, this vid from a few years ago looks almost quaint. It’s from the era of big surfers on big guns, before the kids on canoes took over:
https://vimeo.com/46152384
I guess the reason why I like these “gun-type” boards is partly a feel thing - the same reason why, before SUP arrived, I liked longboarding, even back in the day when it was considered virtually a crime in the surfing world. Glide and footwork.
But mostly it’s because in the conditions I paddle, a dugout is a bloody hazard, unless maybe you are a supremely gifted kid with energy to burn, and a few thousand hours of practice under your belt. If you want to paddle in a dugout here, do the sensible thing and sit down in it! In *my* conditions you need to present as little area to the wind as possible. And you need a lot of rocker too. My UL DW board is extremely thin. It’s as thin as many surf SUPs - and thinner than many. It works like a charm here. Of course, if however you paddle other kinds of conditions then you may want another kind of design.
Ok so hopefully you are less confused now. I love unlimited. I own a dugout. I have used rudders and think they have their place. But the most fun for me for where I live and what I want to do is an unlimited gun-type board - and I don’t want or need a rudder (I run a 2+1 fin setup which is much more effective for hell messy conditions): I can paddle where I want to go and steer where I want to steer just fine without a rudder, and it means the deck is free for movement and standing forward it needed, and you can run more fin area, and a more firmly fixed fin, and you don’t have the maintenance and breakdown worries of a rudder.
But the conditions I DW in look very different from Dave Kalama’s!
But if you want to paddle with the kids in canoes, and make boards for them to race in the rather dull format races we seem to have ended up with (mainly) in the SUP world, then that is great. Certainly the sub-60kg paddler with a high boredom threshold should be be catered for in the SUP market, just as the 100kg+ thrill-seekers should be.
But watching the Euro Tour race I was also struck by how it seemed to me that the designs were starting to look a bit more similar. They seem to be converging on a compromise design that looks maybe a bit like the SIC RS. They don’t seem to be converging on a full-on boof-nosed dugout design, at least not in Europe. I guess it’s because our weather is so unpredictable (e.g. in today’s race in Crete there were some paddlers who were actually blown off their boards before the start in 40 knot gusts (!) and then other sections where there was almost no wind at all). There was also cross-chop and reflected swell towards the end and the heavily recessed high-sided boards looked very rolly and squirrely then. The women’s winner was struggling towards the end on a Sprint, for instance. A lesser (or perhaps older!) paddler would have been in the water. On my low volume unlimited she would have just steamed through hardly noticing it. And she wouldn’t have needed a rudder - not even one tiny little bit :) In other words, if she hadn’t been in a race she could have had a lot more FUN on my gun :) :) :)
Or, dare I say it, she’d have had more fun on my gun than your Nelo - no matter how deep your Nelo’s deck is recessed. . :)
Another advantage of a flat deck board is that you don’t look like Snow White’s friend Dopey after a leg amputation when paddling one :) Why does that matter? It matters for the same reason that prevents thousands of people from doing competitive (Olympic style) walking.
https://youtu.be/keo3Xo2MWog
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Yeah... people in Hawaii need to start travelling more - and def make it to the UK to see how it's done in and around the water.
Next, you are probably going to tell me that you tried a surfski, and that:
- it doesn't work in the UK - and never will.
- it most certainly isn't for older paddlers.
- heavier paddlers shouldn't even think that they could handle a ski.
Your version of "open minded" is a far stretch - but don't worry: I have the SOLUTION:
Stop reading Sharing Strategies from other Sports. Clearly, this level of venturing outside the box isn't for you.
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Ok well that literally doesn’t make any sense at all as an answer. But I guess it’s marginally better than you saying that I believe things I don’t.
Btw there is a surfski club not far from me. They are very skilled, and very fast. I’ve got no desire whatsoever to do it though. I like standing on boards. Despite having a wonderful clubhouse that they operate out of, and being undeniably impressive athletes to watch, I’d guess the number of people who want to try surfski round here relative to those who want to try SUP is probably about a thousand to one. People mostly want to stand up on *boards*, just like me.
Here’s an illustrative experience. Ten days ago I had just finished a paddle round a headland at my local beach, and was sitting on my board, resting. A mum and dad with a kid who must have only been about 4 or 5 came walking past. The little kid said “dad can we buy one of those things where you stand up with one of those long oar things, that looks cool”. The dad looked at the mum and then said “we already have a kayak”. The kid said, “kayaking is boring, I want to do that”.
There you have it. This is why the ICF wants to control SUP, and why stand up surfskis will never be widely popular. But by all means go ahead and build one, rudder and all. You can tell the rest of the world what they are missing as you zoom past, all alone. And then you can Olympic walk home, and tell people as you pass them on the pavement how much faster they could be if they only walked like you.
SUP has never been about speed. It’s almost comically slow. It’s all about feel, simplicity, freedom, accessibility and versatility. You lose a lot of those things once you build a stand up canoe. People want to be able to get to the fun bit FAST, and easily, and and not to be constrained physically or have to invest scores of hours in learning a sport before they can get off the starting blocks. This is why the whole world is buying inflatables - sales in Europe of inflatables is more than 10 to 1 in favour of inflatables - which are NOT dugouts.
But you are clearly a singular individual with an almost unique vision. So I wish you the best of luck in your quest to build a stand up surfski or stand-up Olympic canoe. Get in touch with Jim Terrell, he probably knows just the people to build you one, and he and his wife have always been incredibly helpful when I’ve contacted them. Maybe if you built one with a seat in it as well, you could persuade some of your surf ski colleagues to try standing up to paddle. I’m guessing that that will appeal to them about as much as surfski appeals to the average SUPer. But who knows? It’s gotta be worth a try.
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Funny thing there - for sure!
Here's a complete different take on it: simpler though...
"With the sheer number of people starting this very simplistic sport (SUP) - we are seeing a record number of new surfski participants" so thank you for that.
Here's a quick list of who's onboard with the above statement:
The USA
Finland
France
Denmark
Portugal
Italy
and even SPAIN, out of all things.
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Funny thing there - for sure!
Here's a complete different take on it: simpler though...
"With the sheer number of people starting this very simplistic sport (SUP) - we are seeing a record number of new surfski participants" so thank you for that.
Here's a quick list of who's onboard with the above statement:
The USA
Finland
France
Denmark
Portugal
Italy
and even SPAIN, out of all things.
What's your source for this claim ? Again, you're creating another strawman argument. You keep moving the argument to points the forum isn't actually debating or disagreeing with you on.
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You are just arguing with yourself, photofr.
I’ll say it YET AGAIN.
No-one is arguing that you couldn’t make a surfski you could stand on for SUP.
And no-one is arguing with the proposition that a lowered standing area gives extra stability.
But I wouldn’t buy a board like that because it wouldn’t work for what I want to do.
The Jim Terrell vid that Eagle posted is very good. Isn’t that pretty much exactly the board you’d like to have (in a wider version), photography? Great. Get one made. But it would suck for what I want a board to do.
^This.
This is the answer to the debate right here. Anything else is just perpetuating a disagreement for the sake of it.
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Funny thing there - for sure!
Here's a complete different take on it: simpler though...
"With the sheer number of people starting this very simplistic sport (SUP) - we are seeing a record number of new surfski participants" so thank you for that.
Here's a quick list of who's onboard with the above statement:
The USA
Finland
France
Denmark
Portugal
Italy
and even SPAIN, out of all things.
What's your source for this claim ? Again, you're creating another strawman argument. You keep moving the argument to points the forum isn't actually debating or disagreeing with you on.
I am now a retired rep for Nelo. Upon taking the job, I questioned everything, including talking shop with many people in different areas of the World. When it comes to surfski paddling, the USA is currently booming and really flourishing. Finland is quiet, but make no mistakes about it... they are selling surfskis like donuts (and a huge rise there too). France has never received as many skis before - judging from Nelo, Carbonology, Okrea, and even Epic.
That may be another straw man argument to you, but a hell of a better argument than: "I heard the kid on the street say that he didn't like kayaks". Mouhaaaaaa aaaaaah ahhhhh.
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You are just arguing with yourself, photofr.
I’ll say it YET AGAIN.
No-one is arguing that you couldn’t make a surfski you could stand on for SUP.
And no-one is arguing with the proposition that a lowered standing area gives extra stability.
But I wouldn’t buy a board like that because it wouldn’t work for what I want to do.
The Jim Terrell vid that Eagle posted is very good. Isn’t that pretty much exactly the board you’d like to have (in a wider version), photography? Great. Get one made. But it would suck for what I want a board to do.
^This.
This is the answer to the debate right here. Anything else is just perpetuating a disagreement for the sake of it.
My take on it:
And no-one is arguing with the proposition that a lowered standing area gives extra stability.
Sure, you are not arguing directly the lower standing area, but you don't want to see one - even though you have never tried one on a SUP. Either way, it's not appealing to you - and I'll take that!
But I wouldn’t buy a board like that because it wouldn’t work for what I want to do.
You do realise that only 2, 3 or 4 of you guys are bluntly stating that such a setup wouldn't work for you or what you want to do. Either way, I'll accept that too. In fact, it would have been a whole lot easier to hear that from you from the beginning of this discussion and, let others provide feedback and SHARE additional strategies from other sports. The few who are arguing ideas that are you ideas seemingly a very few - compared to the sheer numbers of views here.
Anyway, it's a bit sad - because some of you are open minded, but some are just a little too closed minded. It's like stating that the UK is the only place on Earth that gets wind, backwash, and/or current.
You think Hawaii doesn't have those? But what about Portugal, or France?
Seemingly, a statement like "dugout boards" are not yet fashionable in the UK - may seem more accurate.
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Funny thing there - for sure!
Here's a complete different take on it: simpler though...
"With the sheer number of people starting this very simplistic sport (SUP) - we are seeing a record number of new surfski participants" so thank you for that.
Here's a quick list of who's onboard with the above statement:
The USA
Finland
France
Denmark
Portugal
Italy
and even SPAIN, out of all things.
What's your source for this claim ? Again, you're creating another strawman argument. You keep moving the argument to points the forum isn't actually debating or disagreeing with you on.
I am now a retired rep for Nelo. Upon taking the job, I questioned everything, including talking shop with many people in different areas of the World. When it comes to surfski paddling, the USA is currently booming and really flourishing. Finland is quiet, but make no mistakes about it... they are selling surfskis like donuts (and a huge rise there too). France has never received as many skis before - judging from Nelo, Carbonology, Okrea, and even Epic.
That may be another straw man argument to you, but a hell of a better argument than: "I heard the kid on the street say that he didn't like kayaks". Mouhaaaaaa aaaaaah ahhhhh.
Put some figures on it. 'Booming' is relative. I can pull up a few race results from many other countries but apart from the marquee events, it's still niche. This is all irrelevant though as none of us were interested in how buoyant surfskiing was as a sport. You're going off on a tangent again that has nothing to do with what people were debating. This thread was about the value of some characteristics of surf ski designs being adopted by SUP manufacturers. You'll find dugout's aren't that popular over here as:
1) The racing market is comparably small compared to SUP sales in general.
2) Most people in Continental Europe live inland (which skews the type and nature of paddling they'll likely do).
3) The majority of paddlers are recreational and dug outs are a specialized design. There are obvious marketing reasons why boof nosed all rounders appear to be selling well. It's not about absolute fastest, it's about day to day practicality and flexibility for many people.
I should add that my own approach flies in the face of all of this and I'll use whatever is fastest for the races I do. I'm not letting my decisions being driven by a marketing department but I know full well I'm not themain SUP market.
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Photo...I appreciate your passion but the bottom line is that not enough people like boards designed like canoes. Maybe that will change with impassioned debate but I doubt it. Surfski sales has nothing to do with Surfski like SUPs. I've thought about getting a Surfski….I don't want to stand up in it.
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I guess we can look at the whole dugout (canoe look) with different point of views.
1. Clearly, not everyone like the look (especially people in the UK - perhaps).
2. Many people in the States didn't like them at first. The same is true for most of Europe. Heck, people who didn't like dugout boards called the ACE names - something to do with flowers and planting :)
3. The reality is that today, seemingly MORE people are taking a liking to ACE-TYPE boards. Heck, the idea has been copied many times over.
So, I ask myself why should I even continue to share newer ideas, if you guys aren't up to speed with the current ideas?
(as in: why should I shared some new functionality to board design, when the ACE hasn't been adopted by the 3 or 4 people who comment here?)
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OK...nevermind. Everyone here is ignorant of what's happening in the SUP world except for a few impassioned canoe enthusiasts...... ::)
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Dugout boards would become real popular in LA lineups if people brought six packs with them. Here comes the beer SUP!
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So, I ask myself why should I even continue to share newer ideas, if you guys aren't up to speed with the current ideas?
I for one, would double-dog dare you to not share any ideas for the next 1/2 hour ;D
Toss me a beer SaMo!
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The future is inflatable dugout foils ;D
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Dugout boards would become real popular in LA lineups if people brought six packs with them. Here comes the beer SUP!
I have a dugout with a built-in dual beer can dispenser to fit a six pack. I'll only share it if you can keep an open mind though...
It even has a low COG so when you're loaded, you can still maintain balance. I kept it yellow so when I'm really
shit-faced and the inevitable happens, it will blend right in. Did I miss any critical feature or is it LA ready?
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Critical L.A. feature
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I guess we can look at the whole dugout (canoe look) with different point of views.
1. Clearly, not everyone like the look (especially people in the UK - perhaps).
2. Many people in the States didn't like them at first. The same is true for most of Europe. Heck, people who didn't like dugout boards called the ACE names - something to do with flowers and planting :)
3. The reality is that today, seemingly MORE people are taking a liking to ACE-TYPE boards. Heck, the idea has been copied many times over.
4.So, I ask myself why should I even continue to share newer ideas, if you guys aren't up to speed with the current ideas?
(as in: why should I shared some new functionality to board design, when the ACE hasn't been adopted by the 3 or 4 people who comment here?)
1. The debate here has clearly said several times its much to do with the practicality and useability rather than the looks of one. Yes, it is damn ugly but I would still use one if someone told me it was faster for my races.
2. As has been already said (and that you're ignoring), this issue may have a lot to do with the current state of the market. If you're implying that your idea should be a 'market push' rather than 'market pull' based product, that's interesting but an extremely high risk approach for an industry with a low level of sales in real terms.
3. That's your perception. How many Ace's does Starboard sell in a typical year ?
4. Well, you can patronise people all you like but as soon as you're pushed for evidence or to put your money where your mouth is on here, you just resort back to saying that nobody is being as innovative as you are. As a former rep, how many sports products have you personally designed and brought to market ?
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I didn’t say that Starboard sells more Ace boards than Allstar boards. What I said was simple, yet misinterpreted - again.
3. The reality is that today, seemingly MORE people are taking a liking to ACE-TYPE boards. Heck, the idea has been copied many times over.
You notice that it doesn’t read that there are now more people purchasing Ace boards than Allstar boards.
What it does say is:
“More and more people are turning to dugout boards.“
I say the sky is blue with couple of puffy white clouds and we should really enjoy the day. Some of you are going to say it’s cloudy, and theoretically dangerous.
Frankly, I don’t have time for your shiiittt.
Oh, yeah… and back to the subject of dugout boards:
It’s simple: there are more popular than ever – against the wishes of the 3 complainers here. In fact, they are so popular that just about everyone is in a hurry to release their very own version for 2018/2019 – even Fanatic – but also including pretty much everyone from Starboard to NSP. Heck, it might be easier to find who doesn’t carry a dugout board.
I won’t even mention that when Nelo came out with their first board, it was a dugout… and they built 4 versions!!!!
Anyway – there’s no point – and like I said, I don’t have time for this SHITE.
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1. The reality is that today, seemingly MORE people are taking a liking to ACE-TYPE boards. Heck, the idea has been copied many times over.
2. I won’t even mention that when Nelo came out with their first board, it was a dugout… and they built 4 versions!!!!
1. Give me some sales figures on that. I like a Porche but I haven't bought one. You're trying to pass off your own opinions as facts. Look at the most well attended races in the world. You'll see an answer. My opinion (equally without substantive facts) is that the number of people using them isn't in decline but it certainly isn't growing.
2. I wouldn't mention it either - it bombed, nobody really bought one...... and that's from a brand that is reputable. Naish are in such a hurry to bring another race board design out they slimmed their range down to just one design this year. ::)
Is a low standing area craft the future ? Maybe, maybe not. Are there merits to the design ? - sure. Is it for the wider SUP market ? - No it isn't..... and for obvious reasons to anyone that understands product design.
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Look at this revolutionary new dugout design:
https://youtu.be/wdBxWZm2WXk
Oh sorry, that’s from 2009. NINE years ago. It’s even got a fairly rolled hull. Even with the might of Starboard behind it, this design concept ultimately was not taken further once Jim Drake died. The Ace has been around for several years now but I should think that the All Star outsells it 10 to 1. Anyone who has owned a K15 or an Ace (and I have owned BOTH) can tell you why.
But, photofr, you are so blinded by your belief in the exceptionality of your opinion that you seem incapable of listening to those of us who are trying to explain why that although these design features may result in a board that suits you and what you want to do, they also result in a quite specialised board, when the market mostly wants a good all-rounder that is flattering to use, and suits a wide range of people.
If I wanted a stand up surfski I think I’d go down the SIC standamaran route anyway. That has none of the disadvantages of a dugout but many of the performance advantages of surfski-type handling. That is a far more radical “thinking outside the box” type design than anything created by e.g. Nelo, and is a good example of the pursuit of all design avenues by SUP shapers.
All manner of things have been tried, but perhaps unsurprisingly given the mixed nature of our races and the costs of the boards, all the most extreme designs have fallen by the wayside. In the real world, when racing, a design shortcoming typically costs you more time than a design advantage. Races are lost even more than they are won. So the most consistently successful designs are those that are a clever blend of the best features while minimising the inevitable downsides to any design choice. And that is what most people want most of the time: a board without obvious flaws in most situations. Extreme dugouts, whether they are accompanied by boof noses or cutting bows bring some advantages in some situations for sure. But they also bring distinct shortcomings. It is these shortcomings -amply described by several people above - that mean that, unless current racing formats change considerably, deep dugouts will tend to be a specialist choice, more popular perhaps amongst the elite than the general public. This presents a problem for the brands because they want the public to see their sponsored riders on boards that will sell. So there is a tension there, especially when, like in the international Euro Tour elite race in Crete last weekend, the deep dugouts didn’t seem to give much advantage despite the conditions being theoretically ideal for them.
Anyway, looking back at your posts, photofr, I do wonder whether you are just a troll. It seems extraordinary that you should genuinely find a reason to argue with some of the entirely reasonable points made here, and you have kept this argument going by use of straw man arguments, claiming that people have said what they haven’t, and now frank abuse. So I probably should be saving my breath because it doesn’t really seem like you are interested in sharing experience and opinions at all.
For a while I felt sorry for you that you bought a board that does not suit you (your new Nelo). It sometimes happens to the best of us. But now I wonder whether this was part of the same issue of not listening to other people, and the irony of you having bought a deep dugout board and immediately discovering the shortcomings of the design but then arguing with anyone who points out those same dugout shortcomings would be something that Alanis Morrisette could be proud of.
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1) Oh sorry, that’s from 2009. NINE years ago. It’s even got a fairly rolled hull. Even with the might of Starboard behind it, this design concept ultimately was not taken further once Jim Drake died.
2) If I wanted a stand up surfski I think I’d go down the SIC standamaran route anyway. That has none of the disadvantages of a dugout but many of the performance advantages of surfski-type handling. That is a far more radical “thinking outside the box” type design than anything created by e.g. Nelo, and is a good example of the pursuit of all design avenues by SUP shapers.
3) So the most consistently successful designs are those that are a clever blend of the best features while minimising the inevitable downsides to any design choice.
1) A few of us on the race circuit have often said how good that board would still be if they updated it with the same shape but with modern construction methods. I know it's not for everyone but I know of one or two paddlers that are still very fast because of it and not in spite of it. Hell, I've nearly bought one twice for shits and giggles. It wouldn't sell though.
2) I agree with you wholesale. As a couple of us said further up, a ski-like looking board isn't radical enough if you want to uncork the genie.
3) Yep, I'm with you all the way on this. Going by how all-water boards have evolved over the last 2-3 years, the market agrees with you.
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I am not so much "blinded by my beliefs" as I am trying hard to share some ideas that may work for the future.
DUGOUT
Sure, they have been around for a long time - and I never debated that. My curiosity is: why have we not yet seen a single dugout board with a standing area 3 to 6" lower than what we now have?
The same people here can say: I have tried it an ACE, and I don't like it - but trying an ACE and trying a board that has a standing area (say) 5 inches lower than the ACE isn't exactly an ACE, now is it?!?
Having a K15 only makes me bow to you, but it also doesn't change that you haven't tried the dugout board I am referring to.
HULL
A round hull is a dream, but seemingly will open two problems. First, we have the stability issue, that a round hull with only 23 or 24" will be difficult in certain circumstances - even with the dugout as planned. Second, we will need to compensate a little, and add stability by having a board width increase - and this will open another can of worms, because technique will be impaired by board width.
To solve this, perhaps, and just perhaps, we can have a needle nose with a SPECIAL flat hull. This will do wonders to reassure people regarding primary stability. It should also allow to go down to 23" without any difficulties, and still retain the stability of something like a 26" board (now considering the flat hull, and the lowered center of gravity).
NOSE
The needle nose should help in piercing through the water on the dead flats, but should also work wonders in downwind (like any Nelo ski currently does). We'll have another problem though: that of steering - so we'll just add a rudder.
RUDDER
Simple, effective.
YOU MUST BUY THIS BOARD
No you don't!
Heck, you don't even have to like it.
The point is that I am just sharing other ideas that require solving every single encountered problem we face (like the drainage possibilities that will come up and that can easily be solved with a DeBrito).
The point is that we should be sharing ideas that we have tried elsewhere, instead of arguing that an ACE is good or bad, or arguing that I only paddle flat water, or that the plan caters to flat water paddling ONLY, or arguing that people will never be able to stand on a 23" board in normal (and I dare say EVERYDAY) open water conditions.
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1) Oh sorry, that’s from 2009. NINE years ago. It’s even got a fairly rolled hull. Even with the might of Starboard behind it, this design concept ultimately was not taken further once Jim Drake died.
2) If I wanted a stand up surfski I think I’d go down the SIC standamaran route anyway. That has none of the disadvantages of a dugout but many of the performance advantages of surfski-type handling. That is a far more radical “thinking outside the box” type design than anything created by e.g. Nelo, and is a good example of the pursuit of all design avenues by SUP shapers.
3) So the most consistently successful designs are those that are a clever blend of the best features while minimising the inevitable downsides to any design choice.
1) A few of us on the race circuit have often said how good that board would still be if they updated it with the same shape but with modern construction methods. I know it's not for everyone but I know of one or two paddlers that are still very fast because of it and not in spite of it. Hell, I've nearly bought one twice for shits and giggles. It wouldn't sell though.
2) I agree with you wholesale. As a couple of us said further up, a ski-like looking board isn't radical enough if you want to uncork the genie.
3) Yep, I'm with you all the way on this. Going by how all-water boards have evolved over the last 2-3 years, the market agrees with you.
The K15 is pretty much made for a guy your build. If you are much bigger its relatively low volume becomes an issue. But it’s a very effective board if you are fairly tall and powerful.
The problem comes when you aren’t. The board’s width - necessary because of the rolled hull - makes it ungainly to paddle and manoeuvre if you are less than about 6ft tall. If you go narrower it will become very tippy. The other thing is how to make it strong enough with such a thin standing area, but still keep the price down. All these issues are addressable of course. But it’s difficult to sell it as anything except a flat water specific board and then few will buy it because most races are not pure flat water.
Starboard did promise a K14. It even appeared in one of their catalogs. So I suspect they looked into it, but found the design issues of going narrower and lighter too much of a problem, and the market too small.
Downwinding the K15 was hilarious. It worked better in small stuff than you’d think. And there was something about the design that meant that going with a current it was crazy fast. I mean stupid fast. Not so impressive against a current though.
There were the usual handling issues with a board of that type with coastal paddling. But back in the first UK SUP races, if you weren’t on a K15 or a Naish 17 (another board for big powerful guys) you stood no chance.
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All manner of things have been tried, but perhaps unsurprisingly given the mixed nature of our races and the costs of the boards, all the most extreme designs have fallen by the wayside. In the real world, when racing, a design shortcoming typically costs you more time than a design advantage. Races are lost even more than they are won. So the most consistently successful designs are those that are a clever blend of the best features while minimising the inevitable downsides to any design choice. And that is what most people want most of the time: a board without obvious flaws in most situations. Extreme dugouts, whether they are accompanied by boof noses or cutting bows bring some advantages in some situations for sure. But they also bring distinct shortcomings. It is these shortcomings -amply described by several people above - that mean that, unless current racing formats change considerably, deep dugouts will tend to be a specialist choice, more popular perhaps amongst the elite than the general public. This presents a problem for the brands because they want the public to see their sponsored riders on boards that will sell. So there is a tension there, especially when, like in the international Euro Tour elite race in Crete last weekend, the deep dugouts didn’t seem to give much advantage despite the conditions being theoretically ideal for them.
The ideas I was hoping to share weren't really for racing scene as much as for EVERYONE 1/2 way serious about the sport of SUP long distance.
To answer your questions:
Conditions were far from ideal for a downwind board - last weekend, in Greece. If you call a down breeze a downwind, then we should all go back to the drawing board.
You may want to just "imagine" a surfski bow - because such a bow has already proven that it will excel in flats and DW. The THINK approach to SUP was cool, but that bow is nothing like a surfski bow.
NELO DUGOUT
My current board is still faster than my 14x23 Sprint board, so I am not totally disappointed, just bummed out because of version 2. For the record though, the standing area on my Nelo 14x23 is dugout, but you are deeply mistaking if you think it's a low standing area. The fact is: on my Nelo board, I am standing higher than on my Ace 14x25, and therefore higher than on my Sprint 14x23, and definitely higher than my 17'6 x23. There's nothing revolutionary about the Nelo - there's just a bunch of cool little features, but the biggest one is definitely the construction method.
TROLL
Well, here's the thing.
I made search online about dugout boards, and mind you, I did this just about an hour ago. I wanted to see the latest dugout boards for 2018.
To my great surprise, almost to the day - 1 year ago... The STAND UP ZONE had a similar post on dugout boards. You may want to read what you wrote last year...
Heck, speaking of troll, I was freekin' blown away - especially when I compared what you wrote then and what you are writing now.
But then,
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If not for racing than al the non-racing factors need to be considered, like storage, transprtation, more difficult remount, more painful to fall on, etc.
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If not for racing than al the non-racing factors need to be considered, like storage, transprtation, more difficult remount, more painful to fall on, etc.
And how much beer and hot chicks it can hold. Must be slow paddling season if this thread got this far. It's like watching puppies playfighting...mesmerizing!
I think photofr is just making a run at Teahupoo Status on the Zone.
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If not for racing than al the non-racing factors need to be considered, like storage, transprtation, more difficult remount, more painful to fall on, etc.
And how much beer and hot chicks it can hold. Must be slow paddling season if this thread got this far. It's like watching puppies playfighting...mesmerizing!
I think photofr is just making a run at Teahupoo Status on the Zone.
Yep. I’m feeling stoopid for getting involved in this one.
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If not for racing than al the non-racing factors need to be considered, like storage, transprtation, more difficult remount, more painful to fall on, etc.
And how much beer and hot chicks it can hold. Must be slow paddling season if this thread got this far. It's like watching puppies playfighting...mesmerizing!
I think photofr is just making a run at Teahupoo Status on the Zone.
Yep. I’m feeling stoopid for getting involved in this one.
I've got nothing...
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Yep. I’m feeling stoopid for getting involved in this one.
Yeah, You got hit real hard by that one. Makes you regret you haven't chosen the other part
of the brain responsible for human behavior as a career path ah? You would have seen that one
coming from a mile ;)
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;D
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If not for racing than al the non-racing factors need to be considered, like storage, transprtation, more difficult remount, more painful to fall on, etc.
Exactly.
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If you guys want to believe that dugout boards aren't popular, you are in total denial, and need to look around.
I could be wrong, but seems like nearly all brands are going out of their way to come up with DUGOUTS of their own.
Other factors?
Sure - and coming up with potential solutions and leaving it up for discussion is what I had in mind. Every single factor needs attention, but I don't see that going anywhere. So... forgive me from slowly walking away.
Let's not share Jack-Sheetz.
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If you guys want to believe that dugout boards aren't popular, you are in total denial, and need to look around.
I could be wrong, but seems like nearly all brands are going out of their way to come up with DUGOUTS of their own.
Other factors?
Sure - and coming up with potential solutions and leaving it up for discussion is what I had in mind. Every single factor needs attention, but I don't see that going anywhere. So... forgive me from slowly walking away.
Let's not share Jack-Sheetz.
Weeellll I can say this much. Here in San Diego where we have the surf spots, the San Diego harbor and Mission Bay, the weather and probably one of the highest # of SUP paddlers, both in actual end users AND percentage of the population that lives here I can only think of one time I've ever seen anyone with a dugout. Ant that was during the HanoHano as a demo. I don't recall seeing any of the competitors using one (there were hundreds to I could have missed them). As far as recreationally, I've never seen anyone padding a dugout around here, and this would be the place if they are as popular for non racing recreational use as you seem to claim. I am actually interested in trying one out. I don't know enough about them to argue for or against so for that I am not weighing in.
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If you guys want to believe that dugout boards aren't popular, you are in total denial, and need to look around.
I could be wrong, but seems like nearly all brands are going out of their way to come up with DUGOUTS of their own.
Other factors?
Sure - and coming up with potential solutions and leaving it up for discussion is what I had in mind. Every single factor needs attention, but I don't see that going anywhere. So... forgive me from slowly walking away.
Let's not share Jack-Sheetz.
Weeellll I can say this much. Here in San Diego where we have the surf spots, the San Diego harbor and Mission Bay, the weather and probably one of the highest # of SUP paddlers, both in actual end users AND percentage of the population that lives here I can only think of one time I've ever seen anyone with a dugout. Ant that was during the HanoHano as a demo. I don't recall seeing any of the competitors using one (there were hundreds to I could have missed them). As far as recreationally, I've never seen anyone padding a dugout around here, and this would be the place if they are as popular for non racing recreational use as you seem to claim. I am actually interested in trying one out. I don't know enough about them to argue for or against so for that I am not weighing in.
Actually interesting!
Do you guys do any downwind in San Diego? If so, what would be the top 3 boards that you see in your favorite conditions?
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In my area I and two friends are the only ones with dugout (Nelo). All others have SIC RS, SIC FX, Allstar, Fanatic, 404, 3bay and JP. A pro I have recently seen with a JP 14x21 prototype with recessed deck.
Overall, the trend goes towards allwater.
I personally do not care if my board has dugout or not. It has to be fun paddling, it has to be stable and not too slow. As a heavy big paddler, I have no chance to be part of the first pack. So that's nothing to write home about ;-)
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If you guys want to believe that dugout boards aren't popular, you are in total denial, and need to look around.
You mean like the accounts above whereby nobody seems to see any ? I'm confused by what you would quantify as 'popular'. How do you define this ?
As for the UK, there are two paddlers I know of who have them and both of them are Starboard sponsored team riders who likely got them discounted. Socially, I've also seen a couple of Mistral Equinox's but that's it.
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If you guys want to believe that dugout boards aren't popular, you are in total denial, and need to look around.
I could be wrong, but seems like nearly all brands are going out of their way to come up with DUGOUTS of their own.
Other factors?
Sure - and coming up with potential solutions and leaving it up for discussion is what I had in mind. Every single factor needs attention, but I don't see that going anywhere. So... forgive me from slowly walking away.
Let's not share Jack-Sheetz.
Weeellll I can say this much. Here in San Diego where we have the surf spots, the San Diego harbor and Mission Bay, the weather and probably one of the highest # of SUP paddlers, both in actual end users AND percentage of the population that lives here I can only think of one time I've ever seen anyone with a dugout. Ant that was during the HanoHano as a demo. I don't recall seeing any of the competitors using one (there were hundreds to I could have missed them). As far as recreationally, I've never seen anyone padding a dugout around here, and this would be the place if they are as popular for non racing recreational use as you seem to claim. I am actually interested in trying one out. I don't know enough about them to argue for or against so for that I am not weighing in.
Actually interesting!
Do you guys do any downwind in San Diego? If so, what would be the top 3 boards that you see in your favorite conditions?
Not really. San Diego is a pretty light wind area so with wind (when there is wind) and swell direction never quite lining up in any ideal fashion, downwind is the one SUP discipline San Diego is not exactly renowned for.
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If you guys want to believe that dugout boards aren't popular, you are in total denial, and need to look around.
I think you need to get over your bad self. The arrogance of that comment is amazing.
10 years of CCBC 30 mile open ocean crossings, 100's of folks with boards in excess of 12'-6"...…. dugouts...I don't remember one. I don't attend races like I used to and dugouts have come relatively late to the scene but I've I have always paid attention to the boards I see. Around here...dugouts might be 1-100..probably more like 1-500, of 14'+ boards maybe 1-50. Very popular.... ::)
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If you guys want to believe that dugout boards aren't popular, you are in total denial, and need to look around.
I think you need to get over your bad self... ::)
^ that might happen only if he dugout his head of the sand ;D But what are the chances?
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If you guys want to believe that dugout boards aren't popular, you are in total denial, and need to look around.
I think you need to get over your bad self. The arrogance of that comment is amazing.
10 years of CCBC 30 mile open ocean crossings, 100's of folks with boards in excess of 12'-6"...…. dugouts...I don't remember one. I don't attend races like I used to and dugouts have come relatively late to the scene but I've I have always paid attention to the boards I see. Around here...dugouts might be 1-100..probably more like 1-500, of 14'+ boards maybe 1-50. Very popular.... ::)
You are taking my sentence completely out of context.
1) I am referring to the fact that you need to really take a good look around AND you will notice that nearly all current manufacturers are NOW coming up with their own version of a dugout boards. No, I didn't mean for it to sound like an arrogant piece of sheetz.
2) I am sorry that your CCBC race only attracted 30 or so paddlers in 2015 - but there were in fact couple of dugout boards. I would have brought my 17'6 x 23" for sure - on that day. Don't take my words for it, just take a look at the video that's online. I am actually super surprised that there were more Mistral, Starboard dugout (like the Sprint or the Equinox) out there... for the conditions seems pretty darn ideal.
Seriously interesting that you are not seeing more participants during that race.
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If you guys want to believe that dugout boards aren't popular, you are in total denial, and need to look around.
You mean like the accounts above whereby nobody seems to see any ? I'm confused by what you would quantify as 'popular'. How do you define this ?
As for the UK, there are two paddlers I know of who have them and both of them are Starboard sponsored team riders who likely got them discounted. Socially, I've also seen a couple of Mistral Equinox's but that's it.
That's a good questions.
I don't mean popular as in you will see more dugout boards (sprint or ace type boards) than standard boards (like allstar boards). Perhaps I should have said GETTING POPULAR, as in more and more people are taking a serious interest in dugouts, quantified by the sheer number of current shapers who are releasing their very own version of dugout board models, AND by the fact that I am personally seeing more Ace-type and Sprint-type boards out on the water. Couple of my buddies have expressed hate towards the look of the Ace, and one of them just bought a 2014 version, while the other one purchased a 2016 version. Other paddlers who have been using the Allstar for years, are now vouching for the Ace's ability.
Speaking of popular though...
Shapers are either stupid for creating dugout boards RIGHT NOW (and for the first time ever) or they know a thing or two about popularity of dugouts that you do not.
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Speaking of popular though...
Shapers are either stupid for creating dugout boards RIGHT NOW (and for the first time ever) or they know a thing or two about popularity of dugouts that you do not.
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Maybe it would be best to say the # of dugout boards is growing, but not exactly exploding. I realize more manufacturers are including them in their lineups and I DO notice more of them in race vids, otherwise pretty much zero amongst average weekend paddlers.
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Now everyone is going to want a dugout...
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BEAN: You shouldn't have.
AREA is going to say that this guy should be wearing a leash, a PFD... or that a dugout is dangerous. :P
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SaMo--Where did you get that FOMO graphic? I've never seen it, and I thought I was pretty savvy to that stuff. Did you already know what FOMO meant? Am I the only one here that didn't? Did everyone else already know about it? If you did, how did you find out? :o
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^ We need a "like" button...
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BEAN: You shouldn't have.
AREA is going to say that this guy should be wearing a leash, a PFD... or that a dugout is dangerous. :P
AREA would be correct, since a canoe does not meet the USCG exception for a PFD in the surf zone. One has to ask, can the current crop of dugouts even be classified as SUP's? After all, if it walks like a duck...
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Look on the bright side:
If it doesn't look like a SUP, and if it looks fast...then it must be a racing craft (which BTW falls under a special derogation)
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SaMo--Where did you get that FOMO graphic? I've never seen it, and I thought I was pretty savvy to that stuff. Did you already know what FOMO meant? Am I the only one here that didn't? Did everyone else already know about it? If you did, how did you find out? :o
Haha that's classic FOMO response. I figured that was a good image to use for those that truly missed out.
FOGO is another condition some Zoners may be suffering from :o
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I'll bite; fear of getting old?
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that canoe would glide & turn well, look at the old school smile.
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It might not hold too well on a steep face, but apparently Ron Drummond would paddle out in 15' swells!
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I'll bite; fear of getting old?
Well Bean looks like we now know your FO type lol! Yes that is one definition of FOGO. But in context with this thread it means Fear Of Getting Out as it seems like some folks are living by this thread ;D
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That ship sailed, in my case it's actually fear of getting oldER... ;D
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If you guys want to believe that dugout boards aren't popular, you are in total denial, and need to look around.
I think you need to get over your bad self. The arrogance of that comment is amazing.
10 years of CCBC 30 mile open ocean crossings, 100's of folks with boards in excess of 12'-6"...…. dugouts...I don't remember one. I don't attend races like I used to and dugouts have come relatively late to the scene but I've I have always paid attention to the boards I see. Around here...dugouts might be 1-100..probably more like 1-500, of 14'+ boards maybe 1-50. Very popular.... ::)
You are taking my sentence completely out of context.
1) I am referring to the fact that you need to really take a good look around AND you will notice that nearly all current manufacturers are NOW coming up with their own version of a dugout boards. No, I didn't mean for it to sound like an arrogant piece of sheetz.
2) I am sorry that your CCBC race only attracted 30 or so paddlers in 2015 - but there were in fact couple of dugout boards. I would have brought my 17'6 x 23" for sure - on that day. Don't take my words for it, just take a look at the video that's online. I am actually super surprised that there were more Mistral, Starboard dugout (like the Sprint or the Equinox) out there... for the conditions seems pretty darn ideal.
Seriously interesting that you are not seeing more participants during that race.
I was done with this thread...figured it had to have run it's course...then read through what I hadn't yet seen and felt compelled to reply.... :P
It wasn't me taking you out of context, you weren't specific in your comment. Pretty sure most of us took it the same way. That said I'm being a bit unfair maybe....the CCBC isn't a race so boards designed for racing aren't necessary so less dropped decks are not surprising I guess. But the general observation of less of them still stands. That doesn't bode well for the even more extreme dugout. I'd be willing to bet that 90% of the dugouts you see in the next year will disappear in 5, and not because the designs don't work for their purpose but simply because they won't sell enough.
CCBC was never designed for a very large turnout...50 is our target # and about our average. We've managed to raise over a $1,000,000 for kids with cancer doing it so I guess we've been doing something right. Seeing a big drop in #'s this year though. I think for a lot of folks the 10th anniversary was their last. That's another part of the equation. The overall drop in participation in events has to make dugouts an iffy proposition at best. More expensive to build, ship, and sell and the design is old in a year....and less and less people interested in what it does well.
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(https://i.imgur.com/q9LgW8p.jpg)
When Nostradamus starts posting here we might get our final answer, but till then...it's all just speculation, and personal opinion on the future of dugout SUPs mass market appeal, and/or really that of the entire sport in general. My personal perception is that we're see less "SUP first timers" in the surf compared to just a couple of year ago.
But that could just be what we're seeing locally (although our once "surf beach" sure is seeing an overflow of just "beach goers"), and with the popularity of the foil (taking more SUPs out of the line up), and where we're doing it away from where most of the SUP newbs would be maybe I've just isolated myself from it.
Although I do spend plenty of time on the beach observing, and there just seems to be a big swing on the numbers now on the beach to the reduction of numbers of those actually in the water, and atop a board. Others have also commented on how there's lines of cars at the top waiting to get in, no stops available once you are, and the once you do find a spot and hit the water....you nearly have the whole place to yourself. Strange times for sure. :o ???
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I'm pretty sure Nostradamus penned a quatrain about canoe SUP's sucking..... ;)
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You guys choose to get stuck on one single aspect: DUGOUT boards vs. non-dugout boards. To each its own, but that's not going to go a long way into sharing strategies from other sports.
Kind of funny of seemingly no one has mentioned a thing about the DeBrito Bailer that could potentially be installed on a SUP board. Heck, how many of you have looked at a DeBrito in real life and used one? Heck, why aren't you even inquiring about how difficult it would be to have one installed?
Anyway, somewhat pointless -
I am trying to share some ideas... but instead of showing 1/2 an interest, you guys are flipping out because it goes against your personal beliefs of what a board should be or should look like.
Funny thing, really.
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... but instead of showing 1/2 an interest, you guys are flipping out because it goes against your personal beliefs of what a board should be or should look like.
No, that's not true at all (much of the feedback you've been given are actually quite practical issues) and any time I challenge you on certain points you choose to cherry pick which ones you answer. If you want to debate this, sure, but debate it all.
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More than 9000 views, nearly 20 pages... but my only goal was to start a SHARING PROCESS that would include strategies from other sports.
There was some good stuff shared along the way, but let's be honest here: for the most part, people aren't about sharing as much as they are about arguing.
I am however sorry if I didn't answer all of your questions. Sometimes, I feel like I ramble so much that answering / debating additional features on someone's post seems... well... "just too much".
Perhaps suffice to say that I'm gonna chill out - and just paddle my heart out.
I will add one thing about Innovations though - specifically about the Nelo board that I will be chilling on.
THE BOARD
Nearly 100 days on the board so far. I freekin love it. In fact, I am getting used to its limitations (for lighter paddlers) but the thing is like a rocket. Keeping up with the board is proving rather difficult for the locals - no matter the conditions. So, yes... freekin amazing stuff. The board is still a feather, and it still looks like it's brand new (no skimming on gelcoat - so durability of the finish is just icing on the cake).
Sadly, and according to you guys, few people will ever enjoy such a hollow featherweight board, and less will actually ever opt for an even lower standing area than the current Nelo. You may be 100% right, but I'd rather just paddle my heart out.
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THE BOARD
Nearly 100 days on the board so far.
Bottom line AND the biggest dilemma so far is that the new board appears slower with my 59 kilos on it.
Sure... only 3 days on it so far
Hmm? This comment by ukgm seems valid.
"No, that's not true at all (much of the feedback you've been given are actually quite practical issues) and any time I challenge you on certain points you choose to cherry pick which ones you answer."
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A few other observations. First you wanted a super fast spear to do the 11 City Tour. Pages+++ were spent giving you a ton of excellent input on what would be the best design for UL and 14s for flat water in different threads.
"You are right though: at 54 kilos, I wouldn't have placed my order for version 2.0"
Then you end up keeping the Nelo 2.0 which is not suited for your super light 118.8 lb body weight and not a board you would buy -> if you were given a choice. By your own admission. Now you also say you no longer want to do 11 Cities.
Area asks that you just design the board of your dreams and basically quit patronizing. Also questioning if you are just trolling and not responding to questions. Hmm?
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^ maybe my mind is playing tricks on me but do I recognize a
concerning pattern of inconsistency in the above... food for thoughts ;)
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I think we need to cut Photo some slack...he was getting hit from all directions. I don't think he expected the response he received. I'd have been ducking for cover... :)
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I think we need to cut Photo some slack...he was getting hit from all directions. I don't think he expected the response he received. I'd have been ducking for cover... :)
I would have him share his great photos rather than those questionable
illusive strategies. He'd be pretty much guaranteed getting complements
rather than bitchslapped.
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I think we need to cut Photo some slack...he was getting hit from all directions. I don't think he expected the response he received. I'd have been ducking for cover... :)
I would have him share his great photos rather than those questionable
illusive strategies. He'd be pretty much guaranteed getting complements
rather than bitchslapped.
Yup. 100%. Always like nice photos with bokeh taken with a high qual lens. ;)