Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: 10generation on April 16, 2018, 09:33:34 PM
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Production 14' board vs benefit of a custom board that is 15', 16'?
Does the longer waterline make much of a difference? Less maneuverability vs more inherent speed? More or less stability with longer length? I would assume same board shape, just difference of adding length.
Wondering if I should look at going custom given I have no interest in racing, just want a board that makes covering long distances easier and have space in the garage?
Thanks for opinions
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There is nothing inherently special about 14'. In fact, you will find a number of people here with fond memories of the K15. If you like glide, go the extra length for sure.
#sizematters
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Isn't the 14' "standard" a result of some past shipping or airline requirement? I seem to remember Corran going on about it at one point.
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Your size / weight has a lot to do with what you need. Going wider on a 14' to compensate for more weight doesn't make sense. It just slows the board down. I'm 245 lbs. so my optimal length for racing is somewhere between 18' and 20'. Width between 25" to 26". If you're 215 lbs. you may be in the 17' to 19' range. If you're 185 lbs. then your probably in the 14' range at the lower end. I know a lot guys that are 180 to 200 lbs. that race 18' x 22" to 23" boards.
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Super helpful. I'm around 200 lbs.
How much is the actual difference of adding about a foot - is it a big change?
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The longer you go, the better the glide. Shorter boards are lighter and more maneuverable, so you sprint quickly from buoy to buoy and /or in and out of the surf racing. Unlimited's are a little heavier, but that weight helps maintain the glide. They are designed for going very straight for a long distance. You actually don't want to paddle too fast on an unlimited, because you can kill the glide. You have to learn how to paddle longer boards. It's about getting up to speed and just maintaining it efficiently. Quick paddle strokes are counterproductive. Longer paddled with deeper strokes work best.
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Isn't the 14' "standard" a result of some past shipping or airline requirement? I seem to remember Corran going on about it at one point.
I think the 14' boards evolved from paddleboard racing (arms only) where the classes are 12', 14' and unlimited. We had a 12' SUP division in the beginning then that Laird production 12'2" came out and race directors morphed it to 12'6".
Getting back to the original question I love the glide of unlimiteds (both SUP and paddleboard) but most are around the 18' range and that's a lot of board for me to push. The sweet spot for me is 16'6" - 17'6".
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I think 14' was because the fastest Naish board at the time (who ran/sponsored the races that set the standard)would have been smoked by the Starboard K15.... ;)
You've asked about length but not shape....big difference in an all around distance cruiser, speedy racer, or DW board. How much have you paddled big boards? The best way to understand is to try some out of course. Everyone is different both physiologically and in what we want. Horses for courses. The conditions and purpose will dictate as well. I don't like noses that get pushed around in wind and cross chop...my usual paddle conditions. I have an 18' flatwater thouroughbred on the ceiling of my garage that rarely gets wet....I like open ocean and it's not the board for that.
This is all so personal so take what I say with a grain of salt. Like I said demo....but my 2 cents.....If you aren't worried about speed but more ease for long distance I'd go with a compromise. At your size 16'+ or so but i wouldn't go so narrow...26" maybe.....you aren't racing. Your looking for glide and ease of paddle. I'd also stick with a classic shape but I think that's a bias I have. Boards that claim secondary stability just mean I fall in slowly. TD has much better balance than me (not surprisingly) I'd never go that narrow but "narrow" is different for each of us.
I'm much bigger than you and my go to distance board is my old Vec 14' x 28". I've been paddling it for 10 years and a few 1,000 miles so I've been thinking about another custom off and on for a long time. Based on my size...6-4 270+lbs (the + varies...:) ) I could go much bigger but if I get another distance board I'm thinking 16'-17' and 29"...a blow up of my present board with a little different distribution of the foam. It would actually be a duplicate of one of the 1st 14' boards I ever paddled blown up to 17'. Admins board from 2007... 8)....still haven't been on another board I liked as much so quickly. It wouldn't be so much about going fast but about faster in comfort.
On the other side....you could simply go with a 14' production board. You aren't out of the range at 200lbs. Save a few $ and paddle a little harder..... ;)
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I'm much bigger than you and my go to distance board is my old Vec 14' x 28". I've been paddling it for 10 years and a few 1,000 miles so I've been thinking about another custom off and on for a long time. Based on my size...6-4 270+lbs (the + varies...:) ) I could go much bigger but if I get another distance board I'm thinking 16'-17' and 29"...a blow up of my present board with a little different distribution of the foam. It would actually be a duplicate of one of the 1st 14' boards I ever paddled blown up to 17'.
I just picked up and older high volume 18' x 28" Ron House unlimited with a sunken deck. It's going to be my go to board for the open water. You'd like it. I paddled it the other day in some crappy mixed up bump, and felt pretty comfortable. Not much bracing and could maintain my cadence well. I could not have paddled my 25" wide unlimited in those conditions. It has very tall rails that are pretty squared off. It puts the bulk of the volume as far out as possible. It glides nice too. Way better than my 14'. I'd say pretty close to the glide of my 25" unlimited. The only thing that really feels different is it's all just E-glass and flexes like a trampoline.
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My second board was a 17'6 x 23" - but I only weigh in at about 60 kilos - 135 pounds. The glide of that board is still unmatched to date, even though it was built in 2013. That UL was under 10 pounds in weight, but falling on it would have left a mark. I still managed to rack over 2000 km per year on that board, 3 years in a row.
I entered two races with it... and clearly the board was not welcomed.
A great board to have fun (not necessarily to race) could be 17x26 - where you could find yourself having fun downwind, go camping, go touring, stay in shape, photography ventures, and even race a few totally dead flat water. Such a board may already exist: check out SIC - with a rudder.
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16ft is a nice easy length to own. You get the benefits of extra glide but the handling is still quite like a 14 and the board isn’t so big that carrying/storage etc becomes tricky. 17ft is nice too, especially if you are a bigger unit, but if you are an ocean SUPer, 17ft starts to get a lot of board to surf. 18 and above would be nice in flat water but for (choppy, windy) ocean work you’d probably need to be a pretty powerful paddler unless you are always going straight downwind.
The observations above in regard to weight are correct. For anyone over 200lbs I think that a 14 is a poor choice, if you have a choice. But if you are a real lightweight, 16ft+ can be too much board for you to muscle.
It’s so great being able to go narrower for the same stability when you go longer. Narrower boards are so much nicer to paddle. Less strain on the body. If you are a big unit who has only ever paddled (wide) 14s, you will be amazed at how much nicer going to 26” or so on an UL will feel.
You get used to the extra length very quickly. I’ve got three 16ft boards and they now feel quite small to me. 14s just feel pretty silly now. Unless you have a good reason to want a 14 (eg. racing, storage, you paddle white water, or you are a lightweight with limited paddle power) then I can see no earthly reason to hobble your enjoyment and capabilities in that way.
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Yeah, 14s suck toads for anyone over 200. I have three that I never use. One is a wall hanging (woodie Javelin), the others need to go.
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This is great feedback! Thanks guys.
Where do I look for a longer board. Been talking to Dave at Infinity, guessing I should talk to Joe Bark. Any other suggestions?
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I think Dave Daum has the best understanding of how to design an unlimited. These days most of the guys I race unlimiteds with are on Kings. It used to be Richmond's, Bark's and Ohana's that ruled. Now days aside from Joe, the rest have stopped shaping. I've never really liked Bark unlimited SUP's. The Infinity guy's are great for just about any board, but not really in tune with 'One Man' ;D unlimiteds.
https://www.kingspaddlesports.com/collections/race/products/unlimited-19
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You guys mention maintaining stability when going longer/narrower. You're referring to secondary stability? What about primary stability?or stability in cross swell/choppy conditions when not at cruising/maximum speeds?
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Most long narrow-ish boards have decent primary stability. Some can get into weird little head tosses that might pitch you off, but the long rails provide buoyant stability--just not as much as getting wider does. Shape and distribution of the volume is more important on long boards. A wide board with too much volume along the stringer and not enough on the rails will still be somewhat stable--just not as stable as a board of the same dimensions that's designed not to tip. A long board with thin rails and no rocker is going to feel like you're logrolling.
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Like Pono says, a 'log rolling' is pretty much the feel on unlimited's. Totally different that a 14'. It takes a little getting used to, but the boards react slower so you have more time to recover. The rocker spread out across a long board helps with stability as well. As far as glide, an 18' x 28" will glide so much better than a 14' x 28" because the curve from nose to tail is reduced. This almost completely eliminates any bow wake.
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Even if you're not going to get some of the classic unlimited shapes discussed here you're still going to see pickup in speed judging by my experience.
On my 16x25 all-around shape I get GPS readings of 5's and 6's mph compare to my 14x24 which is in the 4's and 5's mph. 6mph does not come by
regularly on workouts when on my 14' while on the 16' it's an every day occurrence. Mind you, I'm around 180.
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Even if you're not going to get some of the classic unlimited shapes discussed here you're still going to see pickup in speed judging by my experience.
On my 16x25 all-around shape I get GPS readings of 5's and 6's mph compare to my 14x24 which is in the 4's and 5's mph. 6mph does not come by
regularly on workouts when on my 14' while on the 16' it's an every day occurrence. Mind you, I'm around 180.
Stop the torture.....thankfully I have my Ace-GT but I cannot fathom what a more flat dedicated UL shape would do on the light chop (flat water) on a 15 km run.
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Even if you're not going to get some of the classic unlimited shapes discussed here you're still going to see pickup in speed judging by my experience.
On my 16x25 all-around shape I get GPS readings of 5's and 6's mph compare to my 14x24 which is in the 4's and 5's mph. 6mph does not come by
regularly on workouts when on my 14' while on the 16' it's an every day occurrence. Mind you, I'm around 180.
Stop the torture.....thankfully I have my Ace-GT but I cannot fathom what a more flat dedicated UL shape would do on the light chop (flat water) on a 15 km run.
I was wondering the same thing my self, what kind of gains I would see on a flat water dedicated 18.4X22, wetted surface wouldn't be much more than my current unlimited
so I think I would have enough engine to power it. But I'm perfectly fine with my current or similar shape, I suspect the Ace-GT is not a dog either ;)
18'4" sounds like a chore for a small guy like me. my 16x25 really handles like a 14" in almost every way, on and off the water, which is a really convenient.
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Another option to consider. I am just about to officially launch my business handling Mistral's race hardboards. Their brand new Interceptor might be what you are looking for with reasonable cost and high performance. It is 17' 6" by 24.3" it will perform in both flat and rough water conditions. It has an adjustable rudder system. If you are paddling on mainly flat water check out the Stealth a 17' 6" flatwater design, both would easily handle your size. My web site is www.nplpaddlesports.com Boards will be arriving in early June.
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Another option to consider. I am just about to officially launch my business handling Mistral's race hardboards. Their brand new Interceptor might be what you are looking for with reasonable cost and high performance. It is 17' 6" by 24.3" it will perform in both flat and rough water conditions. It has an adjustable rudder system. If you are paddling on mainly flat water check out the Stealth a 17' 6" flatwater design, both would easily handle your size. My web site is www.nplpaddlesports.com Boards will be arriving in early June.
I've seen this board (pictures of it) a year ago or so, it's good to see they are finally coming out with it. Wondering if you have any idea
about the weight and price of the board.
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Burchas,
I do, 17' 6" by 24.3" 364 liters x 35 lbs. Take a pass at my web site www.nplpaddlesports.com for details written by the designer Steve West. Price $3600 plus shipping. I will be picking up the boards in the Long Beach area the first week of June and am planning on dropping of a few boards already sold, if you are by chance between Southern California and Colorado. If you are further east I am looking for experienced paddlers to demo the boards and will sell then at reduced prices to such reps. I'll handle all the Mistral 14 foot and Unlimited race board models. Let me know if you have any interest.
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Hello Lee,
Do you know if there will also be a distributor in Canada? The equinox 14x26 looks very tempting to try?
Regards,
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Luc,
For the moment I am handling Mistral's hardboards in the USA. Not sure if there would be an import duty if I shipped one your way.
If you are interested perhaps we can figure out how to get one to you without excessive cost. I can check with our team in the Netherlands and get back to you.
Lee
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How much is the actual difference of adding about a foot - is it a big change?
There's roughly a 3% increase in speed per foot of length.
That's based on the equation for a boat's "hull speed" in knots as a function of its length, which is 1.34 x the square root of the length in feet.
The gains are greater at the lower end of the length range. Like, going from 14 to 16 is a bigger difference than going from 16 to 18. Also, factors like weight and surface drag start to increase with really big boards, so going longer stops being beneficial at some point. That point of diminishing returns may be reached earlier with lighter/weaker paddlers, but obviously a light, strong paddler like photofr is still benefiting up to at least 17'6.
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Luc,
For the moment I am handling Mistral's hardboards in the USA. Not sure if there would be an import duty if I shipped one your way.
If you are interested perhaps we can figure out how to get one to you without excessive cost. I can check with our team in the Netherlands and get back to you.
Lee
Thanks Lee. I have found that between, the exchange rate, the shipping and the duty/tax, it was very difficult to import on its own a board, Plus I have committed myself to never again buy a board without having tried it before....
Regards
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I understand, if you read my site you understand much of the reason i am doing this is to get folks on a high end board for a demo, before buying it, along with trying to keep pricing down. Perhaps I can set someone up either in Canada or a reasonable distance away in the USA and give you a chance for that ride.
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Burchas,
I do, 17' 6" by 24.3" 364 liters x 35 lbs. Take a pass at my web site www.nplpaddlesports.com for details written by the designer Steve West. Price $3600 plus shipping. I will be picking up the boards in the Long Beach area the first week of June and am planning on dropping of a few boards already sold, if you are by chance between Southern California and Colorado. If you are further east I am looking for experienced paddlers to demo the boards and will sell then at reduced prices to such reps. I'll handle all the Mistral 14 foot and Unlimited race board models. Let me know if you have any interest.
Thanks LeeBee!
I'm always interested in new shapes, I'll be back on the Northeast shortly. Our downwind group includes some experienced
paddlers such as our fellow zoner off-shore and I'm sure they'll be keen on putting it to the test. After such a long harsh winter
I can tell you there is a real hunger for bumps around those parts and this board will be put to a good use.
Analyzing the shape I suspect this board will be a good performer even in the the flats and upwind so all in all, could be a good
all-arounder for some paddlers who wish to have only one board.
I've read the designer notes and I could tell his line of thought sits very well with my idea of fun board though I have to
admit that at 24.3 wide at 364 volume this board might be hard for me to control at winds over 20 knots. That said, I never shy
away from a challenge so feel free to be in touch.
I general, I've always liked Mistarl boards, I've even copied some of their ideas into my custom shapes and I really like the fact
they are taking the leap back into the unlimited arena. Good Luck with your business, I'm glad paddlers the American market have
another good option for boards that also includes unlimited.
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Burchas,
Thanks for the kind words. If any of your paddling friends is interested I'll sell them a board at a nice discount over my already aggressive pricing to get each model into the Northeast. I have a Vanquish and Interceptor going to a gentleman who races in Southern California who will give folks a chance to demo them. Living in Colorado with our predominantly flat water, I am looking forward to paddling the Sprint I've set aside for myself. The glide should be fantastic.