Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Technique => Topic started by: supthecreek on February 18, 2018, 07:11:17 AM
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I like surfing backside as much as frontside.
People always ask me how to surf backside, so here's a simple starter discussion on the mechanics of a backside turn.
SUP, by virtue of it's size, requires more leverage to turn, and my first SUP was 11'2 x 36" wide!
I found it much easier to turn that huge SUP backside, because the leverage was much more direct, with my heels right on the rail.
There are many moving parts to good backside surfing.
This post is about leverage and how it is applied.
Stand up right now....and look down your legs.
Your body weight is loaded directly into your heels.
Heels don't bend
therefore ALL your weight is applied heelside.
Ankles bend, so toeside pressure is less direct.
Now, think about your upper body and where it goes during turns, both frontside and backside.
When you turn backside, you are in a "sitting" position
Your butt hangs out over the rail, but your upper body leans back in, towards the board.
Returning your body back over the board after a turn is easy, because your upper body is bent in that direction anyway.
Conversely, in a frontside turn, you must commit your UPPER body farthest away from the board, and recovery depends on bringing the board back under your center mass.
The backside turn:
Use your rails and body weight
Move your heels.... or at least your back heel, close the rail... and crouch slightly.
This will move your butt out over the rail and all your body weight will be applied to the backside rail...... voila!
The board will easily come directly under you, as you come through the turn because your upper body is leaning forward as you crouch for the turn.
Video in slo-mo, then normal speed to see how this works.
(I just thought that I should make a "stop action video" to breakdown the moving parts.... but this slo-mo I made for a different forum should help)
the perception seems to be:
I am looking that way, so frontside is easier.
Give backside a try... and have fun!
Pics below the video show how the body position on a backside turn is actually easier than frontside.
#1
backside you can hang your butt way past the rail and all the weight is applied directly to the rail, through your immovable heels (red line)
while your head and shoulders are leaning back in towards the board. (blue line)
#2
Frontside, your weight is also applied to the board through your heels.... but they are closer to the center of the board (red line)
while your head and shoulders must be way out past the rail to apply the same leverage (blue line)
#3
Pic from 2011, on my 36" wide board
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmRaNFzxtZM
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Thx Creek.
I surf goofy, backside all the time here. My main takeaway is that there's very little movement in this turn, just a slight move of the back foot. I liked getting to see that. One thing I will note however, is that applying and moderating pressure with your toe side is more granular and in my experience easier to control. The leverage is there for sure but for a lot of people the issue is one looking where they're going and to being able to control the amount and pace of the turn.
I'd just like to point out that in this video all your backside turns are 90° or less but your frontside cutback is about 180°. Is it fair to say that the leverage is there but maybe not as much control or balance? Leaning forward and leaning back for me are very different experiences. I can move my center of gravity much farther over my toes than my heels.
Another thing that affects my backside turns is my head and eyes. We go where we look. For the last six months I've been training myself to look back over my shoulder to initiate my backside turns.
Great video, please do more of this. Especially one showing a backside cutback to the foam for comparison. But yes, as a,goofy in SoCal this is something you're forced to focus on. I love a fast backside trimming wave.
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Cowboy said:
"I'd just like to point out that in this video all your backside turns are 90° or less but your frontside cutback is about 180°. Is it fair to say that the leverage is there but maybe not as much control or balance?" .... and.... in this video all your backside turns are 90° or less but your frontside cutback is about 180°"
I think you just pointed out what makes backside easier than people think.... very little movement is required to snap a backside turn...
and the cutback is a frontside turn, making backside a fairly easy task.
also:
"Great video, please do more of this. Especially one showing a backside cutback to the foam for comparison"
Do you mean a cutback while surfing backside? ha ha... even my reply could be taken both ways. ;D
Since we are talking about going backside:
Here's an old video, shot from a nose cam, showing a cutback up onto 6' of white-water
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6_uCAk8yvU
I can't come anywhere close to this move when surfing frontside.
I need to move my back foot to the stomper and get much lower..... but that's another thread.... soloshot will make it happen!
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The only thing I like about going left is when I get to do a cutback and it feels like a frontside turn.
Being born and raised in the land of right point breaks, my backside surfing has suffered.
Thanks for posting the video. Shit like that and board reviews are why I'm on the Zone.
That and maybe to razz some people.
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Great vid/lesson Creek! Glad to see the SS3 earning its keep on this vid....super quality!
Although a novice, I (as a goofy foot) enjoy riding backside as much as I do front side. A bit of a breakthrough for me on my Creek during a great session yesterday.....I repeatedly was able to get my back foot further back than in previous sessions and was trimming and initiating turns sooooo much easier. I put some nice rides together (for me) and was even able to completely change direction (from frontside to backside and vice versa) on several waves - by the time I changed direction the wave(s) had either already crumbled behind me or were about too, but I got the feeling of what its like. So pumped!
Will definitely be watching this vid several more times and study up!
LOVE LOVE LOVE these types of vids!
Can't wait to see more SS3 footage from FLA wave adventures!!!!!!
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Thanks Creek
These instructional videos are much appreciated. I have a simple question and that is when surfing backside (regular footed) do you always keep the paddle handle in your right hand so the paddle blade is over the front left side of the board?
Cheers
Bob
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Hi Bob
Each surfer has his/her own way to use the paddle during turns.
Some folks change with every turn, using the paddle on the side of the turn.
Backside, sometimes I use the paddle during a turn... sometimes I don't (pic #1)
Regardless, I always switch it to toe side, so I have something to lean on after a top turn (pic #2)
Frontside, I ALWAYS use the paddle toeside, during any forehand turn (pic#3)
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Totally get what you're saying creek. I do love the fade.
The reason I mentioned the 90° turn is that I never really get facing back towards the top of the wave going backside. I agree that it's not hard to snap those little quick ones. I just struggle to keep the pressure on beyond that.
I do need to practice your foot move though. That angle and your explanation makes it so easy to see what you're doing. Kudos to the Creekshot 3. ;)
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Like southwesterly, the thing I like best about going left is the hard, tight cutbacks I can pull off. But while I complain about my weenie lefts I actually like doing them. And my recent foiling experience has made me automatically seek the middle of the board with my front foot and to cover the fin with my back. I still shift the back foot to the turning rail, but my position is making for some pretty snappy turns in both directions.
Nice instruction Creek, and I'm going to try that butt over the rail thing. I think I do it now, but then I think I do a lot of hard turns and trace hardly counts any of them.
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I need to start taking advantage of our friendship. I'm off Wednesday's now...when you come back from the land of sunshine lunch is on me for some mid week lessons.... :)
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Wednesdays it is Stony! I would love to surf with you more :)
Stoked to hear you are taking a mid week surf day.... let's have some fun!
But, it's 85* here all week.... so it won't be any time soon ;D
Note on my foot movement....
My Creek is a big board at 9'4 x 32" wide..... I designed it to be stable at 235 lbs and full winter gear....
it's overkill now that I am losing weight and in trunks all the time..... so a lot of back foot movement is necessary when surfing backside.
frontside I do more with my body and less foot movement.
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The only thing I like about going left is when I get to do a cutback and it feels like a frontside turn.
Being born and raised in the land of right point breaks, my backside surfing has suffered.
Thanks for posting the video. Shit like that and board reviews are why I'm on the Zone.
That and maybe to razz some people.
I was also born in the land of right handers...a couple dozen of them...have seen lots of pros demolish them frontside...including world champions Kelly Slater...Tom Curren...Shaun Tomson...as well as Dane Reynolds...Malloy Brothers...Conner Coffin...Kim Mearig...Lakey Peterson...etc...
It's pretty weird but most of my best surfing friends have all been goofy footers...and, hands down the best goofy footer that I have seen personally is ex-pro, Bobby Martinez...love his back hand moves...so vertical...
Same Bobby Martinez that told the ASP "I don't want to be a part of this dumb f***ing wannabe tennis tour"...
There are better clips out there...but, this one is solid...
https://youtu.be/JNai4oIC_jA
I was fortunate to get some backside practice at the Oxnard beach breaks...Jalama...and, certain spots in Humboldt...as well as that left hander that you know about down in the Baja...etc...before really getting into back hand surfing down in Mainland Mexico...decades later on my SUPs, I still try and get low and wound up trying to emulate my prone surf style...always interesting how everyone has a different approach and style based on their surfing backgrounds...
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I have really begun to enjoy backside surfing so much these past few months but the difference maker for me were my eyes. I just love in your slo-mo, with your heel on the rail, your eyes then go the up wave face. You really see the board react right at that point. This was such a struggle for me as I progressed backside but once you see it you SEE IT! That is when I realized I could throw all that weight over the rail and that my eyes would take me where I was looking. Then how much easier it is to simply bring my eyes back around to cutback (my back foot just followed my eyes). I found the eyes leading the turn with the heel on the backside rail incredibly challenging as a developing surfer. My guess and its only a guess because I'm pretty new at this thing is that opening up my front hip to let me see was scary. I think I have just progressed to that happening because I have never really given it a thought until looking at your stills and slo-mo.
I think the other important thing you demonstrate for the developing surfer, technique so outdoes the performance of the board. The Avanti is a big board and your position, not the board, is generating the turn. Progressing surfers (and thats definitely me) should master the turns before thinking "I need a new board." Be stable on the board, learn to turn back and frontside then begin your board progression.
Thanks for posting, I know these types of post help those of us developing grow more then you can imagine.
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Osprey, great point. I practice on land now turning my body and looking over my shoulder like I want to do on the wave.
Once you grab rail and fly through a section you never wanna go frontside again. I love that feeling.
On the "new board" thing. I figured out that it wasn't the board when I had my 10'6" and was convinced that it was too big to turn til I started just trying to see how far I could push it at the end of a ride before I fell off. Doing that when it didn't matter showed me how far I could push that board and then I could "risk it" earlier in the wave. Great lesson.
Creek, I surf a wide tailed Simmons a lot so that's why I noticed your foot. I can't seem to get that foot to the edge. It's just like having a big board in that way.
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Osprey, great point. I practice on land now turning my body and looking over my shoulder like I want to do on the wave.
Once you grab rail and fly through a section you never wanna go frontside again. I love that feeling.
On the "new board" thing. I figured out that it wasn't the board when I had my 10'6" and was convinced that it was too big to turn til I started just trying to see how far I could push it at the end of a ride before I fell off. Doing that when it didn't matter showed me how far I could push that board and then I could "risk it" earlier in the wave. Great lesson.
Creek, I surf a wide tailed Simmons a lot so that's why I noticed your foot. I can't seem to get that foot to the edge. It's just like having a big board in that way.
Yeah, I get in moods where all I want to do is go backside. I have noticed that it's much easier to get your weight back on the tail going backside just by virtue of riding on your heels.
I will say that board size/type do make a difference in that my legs/knee bend, etc. is completely different (for me anyways) on a longboard-style SUP. I'm more upright, and it's obviously more back foot pressure to get the board to pivot up and turn.
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my fantasy is to get backside cutback dialed, then move to lip-slide---frontside lipslide is almost a natural bertleman setup, while backside lipslide requires one stay on top of the board more---was one of my specialty skate moves at age 19 in a sweet softlipped pool at the "concrete curl" in boulder colo in 1977! that was a sweet skatepark: long deep half-pipe with vert walls, great huge kephole pool with coping all around, and then one very deep soft lippped pool--saw steve alba laying out slides for 25 feet in these--and saw him do equally long rock and roll slides in the keyhole--fun times
i skied B team, but had a friend from marin/squaw who was a rippin A skier, surfed OB SF, and was my skating bro--
i have been dfialing surfing switch (i am reg footed) and it's all about the feel of fakies back then in the pipes
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Good angle, good surfing, good conditions, good breakdown. I liked how you broke it down, really helpful to hear someone explain something in their own verbiage/terms/language - hearing someone else wrap their head around a technique helps my understanding.
Thanks for putting in the time.
I look forward to seeing more.
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my fantasy is to get backside cutback dialed, then move to lip-slide---frontside lipslide is almost a natural bertleman setup, while backside lipslide requires one stay on top of the board more---was one of my specialty skate moves at age 19 in a sweet softlipped pool at the "concrete curl" in boulder colo in 1977! that was a sweet skatepark: long deep half-pipe with vert walls, great huge kephole pool with coping all around, and then one very deep soft lippped pool--saw steve alba laying out slides for 25 feet in these--and saw him do equally long rock and roll slides in the keyhole--fun times
i skied B team, but had a friend from marin/squaw who was a rippin A skier, surfed OB SF, and was my skating bro--
i have been dfialing surfing switch (i am reg footed) and it's all about the feel of fakies back then in the pipes
This...
Pretty cool eastbound...like you, I also grew up skating and surfing in the 70's...and, was hugely influenced by Bertlemann's low center of gravity ripping surf & skate style...as were many of us that saw it first hand...once Bert...and, also Buttons (RIP) started traveling to California, it was all over...I remember sessions of Bert on a single fin "Stinger" at Pipes in Ventura like they were yesterday...lord only knows what his surfing would have been like on a quad fin setup...;-)
Bert also had a huge influence on the Z-Boys...who also were influencers in our area...so, I also remember skating with Z-boy, Jay Adams (RIP)...and, surfing with him at the Mexican Pipeline, like it was yesterday...no wonder that decades later I'm still influenced by that low wound-up style...and, love pulling off a layback move whenever I get the chance...;-)
https://youtu.be/F06FlVg6vtI
https://youtu.be/RourkHSDD_8
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my fantasy is to get backside cutback dialed, then move to lip-slide---frontside lipslide is almost a natural bertleman setup, while backside lipslide requires one stay on top of the board more---was one of my specialty skate moves at age 19 in a sweet softlipped pool at the "concrete curl" in boulder colo in 1977! that was a sweet skatepark: long deep half-pipe with vert walls, great huge kephole pool with coping all around, and then one very deep soft lippped pool--saw steve alba laying out slides for 25 feet in these--and saw him do equally long rock and roll slides in the keyhole--fun times
i skied B team, but had a friend from marin/squaw who was a rippin A skier, surfed OB SF, and was my skating bro--
i have been dfialing surfing switch (i am reg footed) and it's all about the feel of fakies back then in the pipes
You and me brother. That was my skate park era. I was on a park team at Skateboard Odyssey in Mission Viejo, CA competing against other parks. My move was a backside slide and roll /ses combo. I would hit the long wall of a big capsule pool or long halfpipe, snap into a backside ses slide, hit the lip and do a backside sliding rock and roll (on my long john sliders) then transition back down the wall and complete the second half of the backside ses slide. Got a lot of trophies from that move.
My sup surfing hard backside cutbacks are successful maybe 50% of the time (I'll have to confer with Pono on that percentage). If I commit to it, but if I don't have enough speed or my back foot isn't in the right spot or I forget my longboard doesn't turn that hard, I won't make it. I'll have to try switchfoot one my sup one of these days. I never gave it a thought when I windsurfed, but it wasn't as comfortable skateboarding. My fakies were pretty much straight up and back with no turns.
I think Cookie is the backside King of the Zone:) His rail grabs are a testament to backside commitment.
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I grew up on a dirt road... I used to read skate mags and dream of parks and CA and surfing. Strangely it took me 20 years in SoCal before I took to the ocean. Making up for lost time and living my childhood dreams.
Those pics are awesome. Wardog that skate shot of LB with the fro is all time.
Also agree with Cookie bringing the man grabs. I need to surf with someone like that who will push me to go.
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I grew up on a dirt road... I used to read skate mags and dream of parks and CA and surfing. Strangely it took me 20 years in SoCal before I took to the ocean. Making up for lost time and living my childhood dreams.
Those pics are awesome. Wardog that skate shot of LB with the fro is all time.
Also agree with Cookie bringing the man grabs. I need to surf with someone like that who will push me to go.
My favorite thing about those old pictures is the custom pair of original Vans shoes I'm wearing. That was my birthday present each year. Going to the tiny Vans shoe store in San Clemente a picking what colors I wanted and where I wanted them on the shoes. I think one of my pairs had 4 or 5 different fabrics. Had to have the checker board swatch somewhere. Sex and Drugs and Rock and Roll blaring from the loud speakers at the skateparks:) Good times and broken bones!
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very nice pics, wd/td
gotta dig up some pics of my own---uggh--theyre in a box in the basement, and would need to be scanned
here's a memory for then---rector skate shorts! no more op! hip pads velcro'ed in--wonder if hip hits skating have a role in my no more pop up left hip??
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Of course it does. Every dumbshit crazy fun thing you did as a kid comes back to haunt you. A skateboard injury to my ankle is the reason my left knee and hip are a problem. forty years of dragging that foot and standing funny and PRESTO!
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Longboarder holding paddle vs Stand Up Paddle Surfing Using Dynamic Paddle, Head, Shouldlers, Hips ???
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very nice pics, wd/td
gotta dig up some pics of my own---uggh--theyre in a box in the basement, and would need to be scanned
here's a memory for then---rector skate shorts! no more op! hip pads velcro'ed in--wonder if hip hits skating have a role in my no more pop up left hip??
You nailed it. Here you go...... Rector skate shorts with all the pads stacked up on my left hip ;)
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Of course it does. Every dumbshit crazy fun thing you did as a kid comes back to haunt you. A skateboard injury to my ankle is the reason my left knee and hip are a problem. forty years of dragging that foot and standing funny and PRESTO!
That's what did to my knee in a few years ago. Skated down the hill to the beach to go to the Blues Festival at Doheny. I dragged my foot all the way down the hill like I was 14 years old. Then kicked hard in the flats all the way to the Festival. My knee swelled up and I was limping around for weeks.
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Great shot TD...
Here's what's left of my still functioning Santa Cruz Skate Boards stick...bombed some killer hills behind the Redwood Curtain on that board...
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clickety click go the tiles, td
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Great shot TD...
Here's what's left of my still functioning Santa Cruz Skate Boards stick...bombed some killer hills behind the Redwood Curtain on that board...
WD,
Before the skateparks, gunning hills was what we did. I built a board with double trucks on the back to stiffen it up, and reduce the high speed wobbles. I lived on the perfect gun hill. Terminal velocity was around 35 mph. Stay tucked and stand up to slow yourself. I know first hand what happens when you get the wobbles at 30+ mph. Serious road rash resulting from a superman pavement slide. We'd sit at the bottom and thumb a ride back up:)
I had a Steve Alba board similar the the Santa Cruz boards. I gave it away when I was in my early twenty's. All the skateparks had closed due to lawsuit's, and I had grown a foot taller. I figured I'd never use it again, so I gave it to some kid who probably broke some bones with too.
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very nice pics, wd/td
gotta dig up some pics of my own---uggh--theyre in a box in the basement, and would need to be scanned
here's a memory for then---rector skate shorts! no more op! hip pads velcro'ed in--wonder if hip hits skating have a role in my no more pop up left hip??
Aloha eastbound,
I gotta look for my stash of Thrasher mags...;-)
This Surfer Mag from July, 1974 (One Dollar) had a profile article on "The Rubberman" Larry Bertlemann that was very influential in my surfing style development which has undeniably extended itself into my SUP surfing...never been into the "Egyptian Statue" thing as a result I guess...YMMV...
I definitely wasn't alone in being influenced as the longboard era came to a close...LB didn't invent the shortboard...but, he pretty much invented shortboard surfing...;-)
Surfer Mag #29 on "The 50 Greatest Surfers Of All Time" list...
https://www.surfer.com/features/number_29_larry_bertlemann/
http://www.larrybertlemann.info/bio/
Z-Boy Jay Adams (RIP)...
https://youtu.be/mlszJWuYTMQ
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Creek, the conversation on the phone with you when we were talking about this stuff rattled something in my brain. And what better thing to do on a Friday night but add to your great video and instruction. My theories are much different than yours though. But your video in slow motion is a huge help for explaining what I am going to explain.
I am going to start with my big paint brush statement and follow with the explanation and a bunch of example videos. It is going to be long but please hang in there.
Here it goes.
All of our turns need to be initiated with the rotation of our shoulders in relation to our hips. Not with where our head or our eyes are facing. It all starts with the shoulders. Now when I proned surfed, I had big vertical backside lip hits and turns. When I started SUsurfing, they kinda, no they did, disappear. I have had a hard time putting it into words to be able to explain, but now I know how to explain it. This is where our paddles are a problem because by holding on to them, they are acting as a hinderance. With prone surfing, your leading hand is your direction and the trailing hand is your counter balance. We do not have that counter balance by holding on to the paddle. And being on bigger boards that do not react as fast as we can rotate our bodies causing a lag.
I am going to combine this with frontside turns also, but first let me explain (in my opinion) the body mechanics for shoulders vs heels and body weight, why we can control the board easier frontside vs backside. From the shoulder point of view, it is much easier to rotate your shoulder around the front of your body than around the back of your body. For example, take your right arm and point it out to your right side. Rotate it across the front of your body, then rotate it around the back of your body. You could say that rotating your right arm around the front is the same as rotating the left arm around the back. Not the same. But you are surfing/SUsurfing with only one arm forward. That is your lead arm. Your control arm.
Now the hips and legs. Where they come in is following the arm, which controls the shoulder, which then controls the hips, which finally control the legs. We can control frontside easier on our toes because we have more hinges in the body to control the force exerted on the toes. Because our hips bend forward, that allows us to apply more force to our toes just by bending forward at the hips. Now allow the flexing of the ankles and the compression of the knees allows us very fine control over the force on our toes. Try it. You stand up and bend over at the hips. You feel it on your toes pretty good. Now you can adjust that force real easy by flexing at the ankles and compressing the knees. It is very easy to do and there are endless ways to make those all work in unison to balance the forces on the front of our feet.
Now with going backside all these joints still play a part but differently. Now we have to balance everything on the point of our heels with our ankle and hip joints working against us. The knees still compress to help lower our center of gravity. The body does not bend the same. It is not easy to control the weight distribution on your heels. Try it. Stand up and put your weight on your heels. Try to lean back and put as much weight on your heels as possible. Try it standing or squatting down. It puts you in an awkward position and not well balanced.
Now let’s put it all together. Stand up and use your right straight out to your right side. Use your right arm to lead your right shoulder rotating around the front of your body. As your torso rotates, you should feel the tension in your right hip while wanting to pull your right knee forward, putting weight on you’re the front of your right foot along with some weight on your left foot. You can also adjust the pressure on the front of your feet by squatting down.
Now rotate the opposite direction around the back of your body. As your shoulders rotate around the back of your body, you again will feel the hips being pulled and pulling the right knee back. This time the weight is going on to the heel of your right foot and the heel and a little bit of inside of your left foot. If you squat down more rotating around the back of your body, you should feel the weight shift a little more to the side outside of your right foot and the inside of your left foot. But it gives some control to put that weight back on your heels more.
With prone surfing growing up, I naturally learned how to do this. When I learned how to snowboard, it was one of the first things my instructor taught us. Whatever hand is your downhill hand, that is your lead hand. Point it where you want you and your body will follow. After the snowboard school when I was progressing on my own, there were times where I was looking where I wanted to go but not going that direction. I remembered I was not moving my arm where I wanted to go. Once I did, I went where I wanted. Now it is second nature.
Another factor is the wave itself. Its force to go with it or against it also helps us. So on a front side cutback, the easier front side turn gets us up and against the wave. To make the turn down the wave, we point/rotate our forward hand back down the wave and our hips and legs follow with the board. With prone surfers this is naturally how it happens. With SUsurfing , the paddle kinda hangs us up. Examples to come. The wave pushing us backwards and down allows us to power through this turn with slight shoulder movement and more hip and leg drive. When we are going backside, the more awkward turn is now going against/up the wave. This is where the shoulder rotation commitment needs to come in to play along with some knee compression. Once up the wave, the easier frontside turn along with the help of the wave pushing forward and down makes this turn very easy.
I am going to start off using Creeks excellent slow motion video at the beginning of this thread to start with the examples. The slow motion makes this video excellent to see these slight movements VERY easy. But first. Skip to 1:26 in the video to see if you can see the shoulder movements. Stop reading and do it .
Now here are the points of recognition. At 0:27 mark he shifts his feet to the heelside of the board and leans the board into a nice backside bottom turn. Right at about the 0:29-0:30 mark you see him rotate his forward shoulder (his left shoulder) around behind his hips and the board takes a more drastic backside cut. At the 0:33 second mark, he pulls the shoulder back straight and the board straightens out. Then 2 second later, that leading shoulder comes around the front and the board completes the turn down the wave. He straightens out and then gets a leaning backside turn. The second turn is a little harder to see. But it looks like the 0:41 second mark, you see the shoulder turn again with the turn initiation. The third turn is much easier to see with the shoulder rotation at the 0:51 second mark. He does lean into the backside turn, but watch how that turn becomes much sharper as his lead shoulder rotates back. I love this slow motion video. And then at 0:53 seconds he brings that shoulder back around the front making the turn. He straightens out down the wave and then watch at 1:01. He makes a heelside (backside) slight turn just by rotating that shoulder a hair while looking about 90 degrees to the direction he is going. And then follows it with the big frontside turn by pulling that left shoulder way around which pulls the hips and legs making it look sooooo fluid. I think he has done this before. And the dismount at about 1:13 after just riding straight for a few seconds. Not setting his heels or his weight. He just rotated that left shoulder around the back of his body and the board just went that way. Watch the slow motion sections at the times I have indicated several times so that you make sure you see everything I am talking about. Now watch it at regular speed again.
Now let’s look at prone surfing to see how they use their shoulders.
First, take a look at the video of Bobby Martinez at Rincon the SUPsports posted. Each time he goes to initiate that backside turn, his right arm (his lead arm) gets throw way behind him getting him vertical. His left arm is 180 degrees opposite counterbalancing him. As SUsurfers we get put it a little bit more of an awkward position from holding a paddle most likely not twisting back around far enough with our lead hand. Looking more that direction will definitely help to bring the shoulders around as well as bend the knees and compressing more.
The other movie about Larry Bertlemann has several great examples. At 1:24 mark, he drags his lead arm in the water and that really pulls his lead shoulder back. Look how hard that resulting backside cut is. Then watch the next wave. He is going backside again and looking back over his shoulder at 1:35 and seeing where he is going to cut without cutting up the wave. Not until he rotates that shoulder back at 1:36-1:37 area is where the back side initiation starts.
This is a great still from Creek of that shoulder back initiating the turn back down.
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=e3b7137867de49d99c46e2f570558a27&action=dlattach;topic=33227.0;attach=92721;image
Here are some frontside examples of prone surfing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DakIREctusk
at the 0:56 mark there are some good examples of finishing the frontside cutback with the backside turn as the second part of the turn. That lead arm gets swung back behind and the turn just happens with the wave also helping out. The more vertical the wave and/or the faster that lead arm get swung back, the more powerful the cutback is.
Here is Occy at chicama in Peru
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZgGK15g4H0
More frontside stuff but watch his lead arm at 1:15 to 1:30. A mellower wave but still. A sharp jerk with the lead shoulder in the first turn and it is a harder turn. Then a longer drawn out turn where he keeps that lead shoulder way back. Another example in this video are 3:00 and 3:45.
Now for some SUsurfing comparison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaLuVp5Rh-o
This video is Kai Lenny and someone else.
At the 0:24 second mark watch it a few times and try and pause it right at the 0:24 second mark. Look how rotated to his left he is It looks like his shoulders are rotated 90 degrees to his hips.
At the 0:50 second mark he does it again to just pull out of the wave. Like Creek was talking about practicing.
At the 0:58 mark, watch the blonde guy initiate his backside turn. Again, his shoulders rotate what looks like about 90 degrees back around compared to his hips.
At 1:15 watch kai. I just kept hitting the pause/play button as fast as I could from his take off. He is riding backside just slightly rotated to his left (his backside). When he wants to hip the lip, then rotates that left shoulder right around behind him and the body follows. Once he gets the board up the wave, the easier part is getting back down. It is easier turning across the front of his body, and he has the downward angle and push of the wave helping him.
Progression project
https://www.supthemag.com/videos/sup-surfing-film-the-progression-project/
starting at 1:29, there are 2 backside turns watch the rearward rotation to get up the wave for the cutback.
Now watch Gorgio at 1:45 do the frontside hit. He can do it with really rotating down the wave because to the wave helping him. I think the bigger board compared to a surfboard, on the sharp fast frontside cuts like that the counterbalance keeps a susurfer from rotating farther down the wave.
And same with Fisher doing a big frontside off the lip at 2:01.
At 3:02 watch how far he can pull the board around on the front side when he rotates his shoulders back down the wave. And he makes it look effortless.
At 3:15, again hitting the play/pause as fast as you can. You can see the initiation of the backside turn to get up the by the rotation of the shoulders behind the hips.
This is just a great movie to watch hitting play/pause over and over. I wish it had a slow motion feature.
Here is a video of Zane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ULzUBb_Qc8
At 0:26 he has a good front side cutback and the paddle then has to drag as a counter balance because his shoulder did not rotate through. Then watch his next turn where he rotates the shoulders through and see how much more the board comes around. At the 1:30 there is a good backside turn filmed from in front of him and you can see him really rotate the shoulders.
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good stuff nt--big effort to produce, clearly--thx
wont be able to not think about this in the water--a good thing--good will also be when a window opens for bombogeniacal bombs!
for now staring at cams and reading your post!
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NT, That's very helpful. When I was at the Nosara Standup Camp the taught us something similar with a dry-land exercise. We stood on a board that sat on two rolled up yoga mats in our surf stance. We'd hold the paddle in front of us with our hands shoulder length apart and the paddle parallel to the floor. One end of the paddle would point forward. To turn right, we'd move our paddle to the right , left - we'd move paddle to the left, easy peasy. To drop down the wave turning right we'd move our front hand down and to the right, to move up the wave to the right we'd move our front hand up and to the right. We'd also compress and extend out bodies when we turned up or down the face.
This was an easy way to accomplish what you described. Your weight automatically shifts to your heal and toes by following your shoulders.
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Thanks Ninja..... great info, and nicely laid out. Using videos always makes it easier to understand.
The breakdown really lets you see how it all flows together.
You are correct, surfing frontside is easier.
Body mechanics work, mostly, in our favor.
My body doesn't rotate all that well anymore, so I use my feet to take up the slack in my rotation.
I am very sure that I broke my neck 4 years ago (cracked... not broken) while surfing alone one winter day.
My neck hardly rotates at all anymore, thank God I have pretty good peripheral vision!
Looking where you want to go is an easy start.... and good rotation puts all the pieces in play.
Tom.... that's a great visual/feeling aid
I love stuff like that, which give you the feeling, so you understand why it works!
I truly believe that backside can sometimes be less complicated than frontside, for the exact reason that there are less moving parts.
In Florida mush, I find it much easier to surf on my backhand, because heels work very effectively when there is no power in the waves.
The solid contact that the heels have with the rail, takes just a tiny weight shift to get big results.
Case in point..... in my slo-mo vid..... my 1st turn was hardly a turn at all... it was a little "check" turn, to set me up for the next, more driving turn.
I didn't look left
I didn't rotate anything.... (Pic #1)
I simply put heels closer to the rail..... my weight did the rest.
the turn was half way through before I looked left or rotated ( pic #2) , which I did to get a little "squirt" to set up the next, more driving turn.
Backside should be explored and not feared.
Start with a simple concept and take it one step at a time.
Keep the info coming!
Ask questions..... tell us what issues you have going backside!
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I was wondering when someone would point out looking and engaging shoulders first.
I’ve noticed you don’t, Creek. Now I get it. How did you tweak your neck?
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I was noseriding little waves on my 8'10 Allwave 4-5 years ago on Cape Cod
In shallow water, I noseride the last bit before close out so I can gently sink into the shallows and fall away from the board.
I KNOW not to dive or fall wrong in shallows. I am hyper aware of how shallow the water is.
I have zero idea how it happened, but there I was.... pile driving totally upside down.
Sailor dove head first, into damp sand, no hands.
I heard a champagne bottle explode in my neck.
Crawled around on the sand for a minute, stunned, then picked my board up to leave.... when friends came.
I wanted to see how "F@#*^D I was, so I went back out.... then drove to RI and surfed all afternoon.
I had no insurance, so I was used to shaking things off.... but I have had restricted motion since that day.
Someday I'll have it xray'd to see what I did.
It still hurts.
My body is stiffening with age anyway.... so I work around it ;D
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the most helpful thing i was told while working with blue zone (among a whole lotta good things) was to keep my GD front foot centered, left to right---moving it fore aft is fine, but not to the rail and back to center--ever--only the back foot--which certainly needs to move side to side and front to back too---so obvious, but until i saw my errant position on video in bigger waves, it wasnt clear--currently fightin/winning in breaking bad frt foot habit--results are immediate and obvious
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the most helpful thing i was told while working with blue zone (among a whole lotta good things) was to keep my GD front foot centered, left to right---moving it fore aft is fine, but not to the rail and back to center--ever--only the back foot--which certainly needs to move side to side and front to back too---so obvious, but until i saw my errant position on video in bigger waves, it wasnt clear--currently fightin/winning in breaking bad frt foot habit--results are immediate and obvious
Agreed with all of this - I didn't realize this until I saw video of myself from GoPro, I thought it was an occasional mistake, but it was consistent. Pretty easy to correct, and then it really opens things up.
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ya i can be resistant to being taught--but sometimes a good teacher sees that one tweak which id never see or think to try, which, easy enough to correct, imroves performance markedly
same with waterstarting back in the day--flailed doing all sortsa shit wrong forever for some painful blow aways--one lesson and it became like riding a bike. and being taight by a woman nearby in a chase dinghy helped too--butit was the little tweaks that immediately fixed me.
unfortunately she did not fix me in other ways!!!?>>()*}!! id have been a very good learner for that!