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The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: PonoBill on February 17, 2018, 03:17:09 PM

Title: A hazard to all around him
Post by: PonoBill on February 17, 2018, 03:17:09 PM
Today was either my ninth or tenth foil session. Something like that. Yesterday I was popping the foil up with a quick weight shift and then wrestling it back flat, getting some long rides with weenie slow turns across the wave face. Look Ma, I'm flyin'.

Today Ka'a was flat and messy. I tried to look at pier one but the gate was locked, so I went to the harbor. The only energy was a clean wave next to the jetty wall, but it looked good for learning. Dave K and another guy whose name I forget were going out, and there was one prone surfer who turned out to be a prone foiler. Uncrowded, small, and glassy--perfect for a faker like me.

I paddled out, turned into a wave and got it. popped up on the foil like I knew what I was doing. Turned left across the face and rode as far as the wave would take me without pumping (which I still haven't managed). Touched down without falling, turned and paddled back out. I got this.

So, of course, the next ten waves I got I couldn't get the foil to fly. I even tried some weak little pumps, but no joy. I said to Dave "I think I need a 280". He said "you need to move your back foot a little further back. Not a lot, a little is a lot."

I tried it on the next wave. I guess I didn't hear the last part of that advice, my board popped up onto the foil and kept coming up. I shifted hard forward and wrestled the board flat, but in the process, I turned hard right across the wave. Dave was to the right of me, between me and the wall, with not much room to maneuver. He had an "OH SHIT! Incoming!" look on his face. I managed to turn down the wave with a turn that was 88 percent terror, 12 percent precise control. Dave wheelied out of the wave.

I rode it out, turned and paddled back out. Dave was laughing--good sign. I said, "So it might be a faux pas for a clueless newb to run down a pioneer of the sport".

"A BIG faux pas" he agreed.

Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: surfcowboy on February 17, 2018, 07:31:26 PM
Pono, totally his fault. He gave you the advice. ;)
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: stoneaxe on February 18, 2018, 05:34:42 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: PonoBill on February 18, 2018, 06:51:34 PM
I had to turn hard to avoid some other newbs today. Not so egregious this time, it was near the end of a very long run and they were flopping into the water in a manner that took up about a tennis court worth of space. I was very pleased to have made the turn, brought the board down a little at the end without hitting the water, popped back up but maintained control, and then prematurely celebrated and did a total yard sale.
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: 808sup on February 18, 2018, 07:02:11 PM
Killing someone of fame isn't how most would want to become famous. Unless your last name is oswald. ;)
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: jrandy on February 19, 2018, 05:36:37 AM
Bill, does your success at 'conventional' foiling mean that the Geezerfoil project is no longer needed?
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: surfcowboy on February 19, 2018, 08:20:41 AM
I still have hopes for a flatwater geezer foil.
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: PonoBill on February 19, 2018, 10:29:49 AM
The geezer foil is back on the list. I found the error in my calculations. I fucked up the unit conversions. Conventional foiling has made me even more enthusiastic about foiling in general--it's incredibly exhilarating and addictive. I've realized how small the foils could be and I see how to reduce the drag substantially. I think it will probably need steering and might be best done as a powered board--though perhaps just intermittently to get up on the foils, but I think it could be great for downwind, which is marginal for large humans with existing foils--unless your name is Kalama.
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: Beasho on February 19, 2018, 10:46:30 AM
Today was either my ninth or tenth foil session. . . . .  I managed to turn down the wave with a turn that was 88 percent terror, 12 percent precise control. Dave wheelied out of the wave.
I rode it out, turned and paddled back out. Dave was laughing--good sign.
10 Sessions great to hear.  Dave has to be impressed that you are out there and learning, or are there 'a lot of guys like you trying to foil?'

Turning quickly is a very tall order.  The other weird thing is how the foil appears to get lift when turning.  Maybe its the foot movement or something else but a sharp turn tends to produce lift picking the nose up.

No pumping yet?  Keep working this. 

I also suspect you are on the Maliko 200.  I started with my 2 pack on the Maliko 200 and was quickly addicted but then switched to the IWA.  I'm starting to think the IWA catches waves as well as the 200 (for some bizarre reason) but the IWA has much better control once flying. 

Yesterday I was trying to attempt downwinding in 18 to 25 mph winds on the 200.  The wind swell was not that big maybe 6 feet. 

NO WAY, NO HOW, NO DICE.
I pulled inside to where the waves were starting to kick and caught a couple but I couldn't catch the whitecaps on the outside to get started.  I was trying to take off half way to Mavericks from the rocks.  The advantage is the Mavericks fetch the deep water channels bigger stuff and I was hoping the combination of reef and wind would toss me into the trough and get me going.  I'll have to try again.
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: PonoBill on February 19, 2018, 03:04:27 PM
You need a pretty good roller to get going with a wind swell--even the really good folks have challenges doing it. The Southside seems to be better for downwind foil than Maliko is, but that might change with stronger trades and smaller north swell.

I have indeed progressed: From a generally stationary hazard to navigation to a general hazard to anyone nearby. I'm getting some long, fast runs with moderate to little control. Nearly ran Randy Royce down today. I got up on a steep, shoulder high wave and was immediately bounced around a bit. I think I could have got things back under control but I found myself in a sharply banked turn with Randy in the crosshairs. Randy is very skilled and could avoid me no matter how poorly I managed things, but I thought pulling the board out of the bank and heading straight for him might be rude, so I leaned deeper into the bank and smacked into the face of the wave. Yard sale! Randy said he could hear all the air coming out of my lungs as I bounced off the water. These buggahs go fast.

I have learned that being high off the water is more stable than being low. I had no idea, and it doesn't make much sense to me, but at two feet high my foil seems locked in and stable while at one foot it's twitchy. I'd like to understand why that is. Mast drag?
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: PonoBill on February 20, 2018, 04:04:01 PM
The head cold which is screwing with my marginal balance had an unpleasant side effect today. I got up on a nice wave, flying high, turned my head to the left and had a moment of vertigo, which resulted in an uncontrolled crash instead of my usual elegant bailout. I fell across my board and bruised my upper thighs. It hurt for a moment but I kept going without any further problem. But once I stopped foiling it started seizing up, and now I can barely walk. I hobbled into Lowe's for some stainless steel screws and probably looked like I was 95. Note to self, if you want someone to help you in Lowe's, just hobble a little and look pained.
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: surfcowboy on February 20, 2018, 07:00:42 PM
This thread is a daily visit for me now. Keep it going man. I'm gonna finish mine and have to surf it so I'm enjoying your time in the dunk tank. You'll get to enjoy mine soon enough.

I hadn't thought about how vertigo could go from a minor inconvenience to a yard sale by adding a foil. Also the higher is more stable thing is wild but as we're all seeing, the rules have all been thrown out.
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: Zooport on February 20, 2018, 07:09:46 PM
Higher is more stable? 
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: PonoBill on February 20, 2018, 09:45:55 PM
Yes. I don't know why, but yes. I asked Alex why that was today, and he said less mass drag, more wind effect, and everything works quicker. I can see how that might be so for pitch, but I don't understand how that works for roll, But it does, it's obvious.
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: blackeye on February 22, 2018, 03:11:39 PM
I thinks its lateral lift off the mast. All the facts fit.

Also, its not how high you are but how much of the mast is in the water. The twitch is presumably unpredictable or maybe oscillating.

It must come from:
1) Mast twisting back and forth.
2) Your newbieness - you know, that tense, shaky, jerkiness that we all get doing something new. The mast's AoA is probably all over the place as you yaw that board around. With all much due respect.
3) Water turbulence.
4) All of the above.

I also think this explains Beasho's phenomena of increased lift in a turn. The mast, while banked, is adding lift vectors pointing up.

Just guessing.

__________

I spent about an hour on this post's predecessor, which was lost due to my logon timing out. I came back with my thoughts in order and got to the point. Much better. I should do that all the time, eh?
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: surfcowboy on February 22, 2018, 08:51:32 PM
Black eye, I write almost everything I post twice lol.

I hadn't thought of weird lift effects from the mast but it has to have some effect when you consider it.
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: PonoBill on February 22, 2018, 10:31:33 PM

2) Your newbieness - you know, that tense, shaky, jerkiness that we all get doing something new. The mast's AoA is probably all over the place as you yaw that board around. With all much due respect.


No respect necessary. My kookness at foil surfing is total and obvious to all, including me. I don't really think it's more difficult than surfing, but mistakes are more obvious and there's a terror component of being way up in the air with a brutal contraption under you.

I'm sure you're right about the mast, and that's pretty much what Alex was saying. there's a typo in my post, supposed to be "less mast drag, more wing effect". Alex was saying the more the mast is out of the water, the less it influences the glide--less drag, and less lift effects. When I'm taking off in a wave I frequently have quite a bit of angle to the wave because I'm too busy getting my feet in the right places to line up well. I can feel the mast both swinging the board and foil into position and shoving the board and foil sideways from AOA lift.
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: blackeye on February 23, 2018, 07:46:12 PM
A revelation to me in skiing was to always be on an edge. Is it the same in foiling? Always be, at the least, in a slight turn? Then the lateral lift wouldn't arbitrarily switch sides.
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: PonoBill on February 23, 2018, 09:19:38 PM
Sort of. The first lessons are going straight. Learning to catch a wave (weight forward to keep the drag low) then letting the foil come up and pushing it down. If you get high up during this exercise the foil feels very unstable. Once you turn to run down the face of the wave the stability is greater.  I still need to return to the middle position but running along the face I can feel more lift on the wave side than the downhill side and I center with a little bias to counter that. I'm in the tottering stage so everything I do has a consequence.
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: Califoilia on February 24, 2018, 09:27:07 AM
Sort of. The first lessons are going straight. Learning to catch a wave (weight forward to keep the drag low) then letting the foil come up and pushing it down. If you get high up during this exercise the foil feels very unstable. Once you turn to run down the face of the wave the stability is greater.  I still need to return to the middle position but running along the face I can feel more lift on the wave side than the downhill side and I center with a little bias to counter that. I'm in the tottering stage so everything I do has a consequence.
Ain't that the truth! ;D

Wrt going straight...at least on the mush balls we have at Sano much of the time, I've found that it's almost a requirement that while learning that I get the board pointed for a run down the face...or much like riding a bike, I don't have enough speed to stay somewhat balanced, and the "tip over" factor is magnified greatly going straight.

Either that, or I end up riding the wave straight down to the bottom by the time I get my feet in all of the right places, and run out of the necessary speed to get the foil lifting...so then it's the "monkey humping a football on a skateboard" look as I frantically paddle while trying to "Huntington Hop' the dang thing up to speed to get it flying as I've seen others able do. Which for the record is much harder than it looks, and I've never been able to accomplish quite of yet.  :(
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: PonoBill on February 24, 2018, 03:00:58 PM
Almost got Boyum today. I'm five for five--five days, five near samurai road pizzas. It was the usual, Bill was going for the same wave I was (he was on another friends foilboard), we were well separated. He was paddling for the shoulder, I was in the whitewater. The extra push of the whitewater popped me right up while I was still trying to get into position. I turned hard toward Bill, who was still going hard for the wave. The expression on his face read "Oh shit, so this is how I'm gonna die." and he bailed off the back. I did pretty much a complete 360 turn in the air, out of the wave and back into wave-catching position, astoundingly without falling. I caught the next wave and escaped before he could pummel me with his paddle.

I got a few really good waves, felt almost in control a couple of times. The arch and stomp pad I put over the mast is helping me get my back foot in position, which helps me get up and flying more easily. I went right and left, flew for a few hundred feet and got back up several times, and almost did a recognizable pump. I can't imagine what I look like pumping. No one looks good doing it but I presume my herky movement looks like an oversexed moose doing air humping. Or something equally unpleasant.

The kook stage for this new sport is not only long, it's undeniably obvious.

This is from yesterday. I included it as evidence of how much fun I'm having as evidenced by the silly grin on my face:
(http://www.ponohouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/grinoprnot.jpg)
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: Beasho on February 24, 2018, 06:37:49 PM
Either that, or I end up riding the wave straight down to the bottom by the time I get my feet in all of the right places, and run out of the necessary speed to get the foil lifting...so then it's the "monkey humping a football on a skateboard" look as I frantically paddle while trying to "Huntington Hop' the dang thing up to speed to get it flying as I've seen others able do. Which for the record is much harder than it looks, and I've never been able to accomplish quite of yet.  :(

How many days in are you?
  I don't want to bust people's stones but give it 10 sessions and things start coming together. 

The kook stage for this new sport is not only long, it's undeniably obvious.
This is from yesterday. I included it as evidence of how much fun I'm having as evidenced by the silly grin on my face:

Pono - You're going to scare people with these comments.  Are you seriously foiling and filming at the same time?  That's a pretty good combination all in your first month. 

Keep the stories coming. 
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: PonoBill on February 24, 2018, 06:43:33 PM
No, that picture was shot by Victoria Leo with her point and shoot. She's a brave lady to be that close to Mr. Hazard.
Title: Re: A hazard to all around him
Post by: DailyBread Surf Photo on March 03, 2018, 07:52:33 AM
I thinks its lateral lift off the mast. All the facts fit.

Also, its not how high you are but how much of the mast is in the water. The twitch is presumably unpredictable or maybe oscillating.

It must come from:
1) Mast twisting back and forth.
2) Your newbieness - you know, that tense, shaky, jerkiness that we all get doing something new. The mast's AoA is probably all over the place as you yaw that board around. With all much due respect.
3) Water turbulence.
4) All of the above.

I also think this explains Beasho's phenomena of increased lift in a turn. The mast, while banked, is adding lift vectors pointing up.

Just guessing.

__________

I spent about an hour on this post's predecessor, which was lost due to my logon timing out. I came back with my thoughts in order and got to the point. Much better. I should do that all the time, eh?

I think the added lift in a turn is due to the fact that you're going downhill which increases speed=lift.  You watch guys aggressively turning, pitch control with the front leg to keep it level as the foil wants to come up in a turn.
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