Standup Zone Forum

Stand Up Paddle => Flatwater and Touring => Topic started by: photofr on February 05, 2018, 12:45:51 AM

Title: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 05, 2018, 12:45:51 AM
I have been out of the SUP world for a bit (got sick, moved up North of France, etc...)

Long story short, I'll be inland for 90% of the time. My goal is to train and stay in shape so that I can have a total blast during that other 10% of the time.

I am looking for a NEW 14' Flat Water board.
Can you help, and give me some feedback?
Is there a board (or boards) FOR FLAT WATER that you believe should definitely make the list?

My focus:
Glide
Speed
Lightweight

No a concern:
Stability

Ideas?
All ideas are welcomed.
My first thought is the Starboard Sprint 14x21.5 - but I am totally open to suggestions, and opened to ANY BRAND.


Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: burchas on February 05, 2018, 06:09:54 AM
What keeping you from the new Nelo Sup. They seem top notch in every way?

They based on your side of the pond so shouldn't be too hard to demo, right?
http://www.light-sup.com/light-nelo-signature-sup-race-hollow-construction.html

Hope you're all well.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Bean on February 05, 2018, 06:58:07 AM
PF, what kind of paddling will the 10% consist of?

If you limiting yourself to one 14' board, it might make sense to select a board that will best handle the 10%. 
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 05, 2018, 11:15:04 AM
I have a Starboard Ace 14' and a surfski that I love for those 10% :)

For the 90%, it's gonna be all flat water - as in super flat water. I still want to enjoy the glide. Coming from a 17'6x23 Sprint, the Ace feel fun, but OMG - it's the opposite of "glide" until a boat goes by.

The Nelo board looks inviting.
You guys have any other suggestions?
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 05, 2018, 11:40:31 AM
For flat water get the 21.5 Sprint.  Plenty stable and plenty fast.  Did a full out sprint session and the board was stable.  Glides nice and feels quick.  Would be the board for me if we had flat water in the ocean.  But we get a lot of chop and wind and slop.  So not best suited -> whereas the AS23 is.  Easy decision for me that 21.5 Sprint for flat water.  Even a bit of small chop and wind fine as well.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 05, 2018, 12:47:57 PM
That Nelo looks fast. It looks like they are claiming 7mph average over 1k for it. And the construction will presumably be far and away better than Starboard? Under 10kg...
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: yugi on February 05, 2018, 01:18:21 PM
I suppose all you suggesting Nelo to PhFr did take a peek at his signature?

If I recall correctly it was PhFr who first posted here Re Nelo SUPs.

I didn’t quite catch what he said but Alain Teurquetil had something to say regarding the Nelo SUP [during SupRacer vid of GlaGla race]. 

Sounds like Alain has made his latest flatwater shapes a bit flatter underfoot. Maybe to be able to go narrower. Maybe you can find a connection with NSP via the french team.

Interested to hear what you’ll pick and to hear feedback. Glad to hear you’re ready to get back on the water.
 
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 05, 2018, 01:31:11 PM
:) Well, I wasn’t suggesting he gets one - I was suggesting it looks fast, and well-made. But I’m personally not sure about that nose, nor the wake from the tail. And the record of builders of other watercraft making boards that are useable in the real world by real people is pretty grim. So we’ll see...
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 05, 2018, 11:18:02 PM
What keeping you from the new Nelo Sup. They seem top notch in every way?

They based on your side of the pond so shouldn't be too hard to demo, right?
http://www.light-sup.com/light-nelo-signature-sup-race-hollow-construction.html

Hope you're all well.

Trying one sounds easy, but still requires a 4 to 5 hour drive. Plus, to be fair, trying a board for an hour doesn't tell you jack. Here's an example:

In 2014, I bought a UL (17'6 x 23).
After buying it, I tried it.
My first impressions (after about an hour) was:
- It's super fast
- Almost too unstable (I even told myself that I would only use it on a pond or such - on a calm day).
- Nearly impossible to turn
- I most likely would not have bought it if I tried it first.

After a few sessions, you get used to it all. It was my favorite board for long distance, Ocean Paddling - in almost any conditions.

Lessons learned: You get some info when trying a new board, but it's still superficial - considering my needs. Therefore, I'd rather hear you guys feedback.

Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 05, 2018, 11:27:54 PM
I suppose all you suggesting Nelo to PhFr did take a peek at his signature?

If I recall correctly it was PhFr who first posted here Re Nelo SUPs.

I didn’t quite catch what he said but Alain Teurquetil had something to say regarding the Nelo SUP [during SupRacer vid of GlaGla race]. 

Sounds like Alain has made his latest flatwater shapes a bit flatter underfoot. Maybe to be able to go narrower. Maybe you can find a connection with NSP via the french team.

Interested to hear what you’ll pick and to hear feedback. Glad to hear you’re ready to get back on the water.
 


Signature?
Yeah, sorry - I just changed it.
I used to rep Nelo surfskis - but I am FREE.

Either way, I am most interested in hearing feedback from any one - as long as it's honest. I don't care if you got a free board, or if you got a killer deal on it, or if you are sponsored - OR NOT.

I only care if it's honest feedback regarding a pure flat water board in the 14' range; one that's just plain fast - the one you got on and said to yourself: "that thing just GLIDES".

RECAP
There's the Starboard Sprint 14x21.5
There's the Nelo 14x23
There's got to be NSP, NAISH and a handful of other boards like the MISTRAL that are very well built for speed on flatwater, right?
Something that really stands out as fast, right?

Again, stability is really not a concern -
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: GlideMarko on February 06, 2018, 01:52:47 AM
custom? I'm getting 14x22 in next 6 weeks made.

FYI... 2018 sprint 21,5 has (to much) volume and much heavier than 2017 (based on some owners) .
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 06, 2018, 02:09:46 AM
Yeah, anyone who says “stability is not a concern” should probably be going custom. Production boards are built for the 99% of the population who are their customers, not the 1%. That statement is a “1% statement”. Lucky you. You might find the glide you are looking for in a really narrow UL board. 14ft is such a compromised length. But you know all this already.

Sorry to hear that you’ve been ill.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: burchas on February 06, 2018, 05:10:29 AM
Plus, to be fair, trying a board for an hour doesn't tell you jack...

In most cases, I would agree with the statement. However, you did specify it's purely
for Flat Water. IMO, that makes testing much more effective. Just slap a GPS on it and
see how it preforms and if you like how it handles.

Most likely you'll test it in Flat Water conditions so it should tell you all you need to know.
Whatever's left, you could probably make up in your head as you are a way more experienced
paddler than photofr circa 2014.

And just to touch on the custom board, it does sound like you are a perfect candid for one.
As area 10 suggested, production board are built for 99% of the population and if I recall
correctly you are in the 140LBS range... Not just preaching, my latest custom is actually
my dream board.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 06, 2018, 05:47:11 AM
No one here to vouch on the efficiency of their dream board, or a board that they have used?

That leaves me with:
- Custom boards
- Nelo boards
- Sprint boards

CUSTOM
Yope, I can see where I would also benefit from a custom rig.
14x23 - needle nose - "fat" tail - somewhat round hull - ultra low volume - ultra light
What's affordable, what is available, and what brand to consider?

NELO
I am seriously leaning on that Nelo board 14x23.
Long lasting - well built - super light - cool looking (dare I say)

SPRINT
I would be leaning far more towards the 2017 than the 2018 - sadly.

Either way, there's a lot of pros and cons to consider. My dream board will be the perfect candidate to train and participate in my dream race - the 11-city Tour (about 200km race in Holland) - in 2018. The problem is that time is running out, so quickly.

In any case, thanks for the feedback. I'll pounder some more.
(the kid in me just wants to have fun)
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 06, 2018, 05:48:54 AM
Yeah, anyone who says “stability is not a concern” should probably be going custom. Production boards are built for the 99% of the population who are their customers, not the 1%. That statement is a “1% statement”. Lucky you. You might find the glide you are looking for in a really narrow UL board. 14ft is such a compromised length. But you know all this already.

Sorry to hear that you’ve been ill.

What board brand are you getting???
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: burchas on February 06, 2018, 06:22:39 AM
14x23 - needle nose - "fat" tail - somewhat round hull - ultra low volume - ultra light

I'm wondering why would you go with "fat" tail if you are looking for the most efficient board?

As I understand it, you chose the 14' due to race participation but if buoy turns are not a concern:

needle nose - pintail - recessed deck - rounded hull - ultra low volume - ultra light sounds like a killer combo
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Luc Benac on February 06, 2018, 07:54:19 AM
The new Whiplash dugout might be an option there are a few distributors in Europe I believe.

https://www.facebook.com/daveboehneofficial/posts/842264392612407 (https://www.facebook.com/daveboehneofficial/posts/842264392612407)

Wasn't the Mistral Vortex also a good contender in flat water races like 11 City and so on.

Deep Oceans also has an interesting flat water board but doubt that it is available outside Australia for now.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: warmuth on February 06, 2018, 09:08:58 AM
No one here to vouch on the efficiency of their dream board, or a board that they have used?

That leaves me with:
- Custom boards
- Nelo boards
- Sprint boards

CUSTOM
Yope, I can see where I would also benefit from a custom rig.
14x23 - needle nose - "fat" tail - somewhat round hull - ultra low volume - ultra light
What's affordable, what is available, and what brand to consider?

NELO
I am seriously leaning on that Nelo board 14x23.
Long lasting - well built - super light - cool looking (dare I say)

SPRINT
I would be leaning far more towards the 2017 than the 2018 - sadly.

Either way, there's a lot of pros and cons to consider. My dream board will be the perfect candidate to train and participate in my dream race - the 11-city Tour (about 200km race in Holland) - in 2018. The problem is that time is running out, so quickly.

In any case, thanks for the feedback. I'll pounder some more.
(the kid in me just wants to have fun)

  In a 200km race you might want to give stability a bit of consideration. I’m fine on a 23 in a 6 mile race but wouldn’t want to do 20 miles on it let alone consecutive days of it.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 06, 2018, 10:08:49 AM
If you want max glide and high efficiency get a production 21.5 Sprint like I tested last year in the pics.  That is the right board for pure flat water.  Sleek low volume and light.  But would pass on the higher volume 2018 with filled in tail.

But if stability is truly no concern -> get a custom pin to pin rounded bottom 21 wide for even more potential glide and higher efficiency.  Even tho the 21.5 Sprint was extremely fast -> there was some drag off the squared tail. 

Basically just look at what peeps already raced on in 11 City to see what works for that distance.  Seems the 21.5 Sprint was popular with some racers.  So would try that one first.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: yugi on February 06, 2018, 11:21:47 AM
...
Either way, there's a lot of pros and cons to consider. My dream board will be the perfect candidate to train and participate in my dream race - the 11-city Tour (about 200km race in Holland) - in 2018. The problem is that time is running out, so quickly.

In any case, thanks for the feedback. I'll pounder some more.
(the kid in me just wants to have fun)

I was about to ask why 14'. Now I get it.

I can't comment on narrow flat water race boards. I don't have one.

Of the 3 you mention I would pick the one that is stabler so you can go narrower which will be a godsend over the length of long races and training paddles. Again I can't comment from experience but from what I see by observing other racers is the Sprint is stabler so you can go narrower.

Olivia is on 425 now. You might want to ask her opinion.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Luc Benac on February 06, 2018, 11:43:20 AM
...
Either way, there's a lot of pros and cons to consider. My dream board will be the perfect candidate to train and participate in my dream race - the 11-city Tour (about 200km race in Holland) - in 2018. The problem is that time is running out, so quickly.

In any case, thanks for the feedback. I'll pounder some more.
(the kid in me just wants to have fun)
Of the 3 you mention I would pick the one that is stabler so you can go narrower which will be a godsend over the length of long races and training paddles. Again I can't comment from experience but from what I see by observing other racers is the Sprint is stabler so you can go narrower.
Olivia is on 425 now. You might want to ask her opinion.

Comments from friends that have done the 11 Cities is that it is anything but flat. They are always surprised as how churny the water gets in this narrow and shallow canals.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Dusk Patrol on February 06, 2018, 12:14:59 PM
Robert from Blue Planet had an nice report from his participation in the 11 City Tour, with some board discussion:

https://blueplanetsurf.com/news/sup-11-city-tour-and-paddle-expo-euro-trip-report/
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 06, 2018, 12:30:00 PM
"The 14' x 21" Blue Planet dugout race board I was on was a prototype designed for a much younger and lighter team rider and I really struggled on it the first day.   I managed not to fall in but struggled with balance all day in the rough conditions.  On the second day the water was fairly calm after the start and we even had blue skies for much of the day and I finally started to feel comfortable on the tippy and fast board."

Seems if you want a custom -> Robert can get you something.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on February 06, 2018, 12:42:42 PM
That Infinity Whiplash 14x22 Dugout looks AWESOME. Aside from the unusual stepped bottom shape, it reminds me of a custom 14x23 Hovie GT Flatwater that my buddy ordered and then converted to a dugout himself. That was a very fast and light board and (once it was dug out) pretty stable.

NSP 14x22 Ninja looks pretty sweet, too. Almost a pintail. 

Not sure if boards with high rails but low volume because they're deeply dugout would satisfy the "low volume" requirement proposed for the hypothetical ideal flatwater custom. Seems like they would.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 06, 2018, 01:14:25 PM
Aside from the unusual stepped bottom shape, it reminds me of a custom 14x23 Hovie GT Flatwater that my buddy ordered and then converted to a dugout himself. That was a very fast and light board and (once it was dug out) pretty stable.

The volume allocation of the 2017 Sprint 21.5 seemed spot on to me.  Maybe just an inch or so off the water at the tail.  Board felt very balanced and very easy to accelerate to max speed.  Glide was exceptional compared to any other board.  Mike uses that board as a daily driver to coach his racing groms.

Would suspect any board 22 down to 21 is gonna fly with the right pilot.  The variance comes down to how much chop and wash you can handle at race pace over distance.  Robert showed you do not need to be young and a light team rider to go on a 21.  ;)

Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 06, 2018, 01:58:19 PM
Yeah, anyone who says “stability is not a concern” should probably be going custom. Production boards are built for the 99% of the population who are their customers, not the 1%. That statement is a “1% statement”. Lucky you. You might find the glide you are looking for in a really narrow UL board. 14ft is such a compromised length. But you know all this already.

Sorry to hear that you’ve been ill.

What board brand are you getting???
The last board I bought was a 16ft custom from Grey Paddleboards. And the one before that.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 06, 2018, 11:03:50 PM
14x23 - needle nose - "fat" tail - somewhat round hull - ultra low volume - ultra light

I'm wondering why would you go with "fat" tail if you are looking for the most efficient board?

As I understand it, you chose the 14' due to race participation but if buoy turns are not a concern:

needle nose - pintail - recessed deck - rounded hull - ultra low volume - ultra light sounds like a killer combo

@Burchas
Just mis-communication from my part.
What I meant is:
Needle nose (piercing board to open the water nicely, and for a super narrow paddle catch)
Still somewhat narrow standing area (again for a narrow catch)
Fattest area (23") just behind my feet - for the added stability
Almost pintail (to close the water nicely - the board will not look like an allstar at the rear - more like an SIC)
Recessed deck (for more stability)
Rounded hull (for more speed - but the 23 / 24" should give me ample stability)
Without the round hull, I could easily go with a 14x20 (with a super flat bottom for example).
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 06, 2018, 11:28:59 PM
Yeah, anyone who says “stability is not a concern” should probably be going custom. Production boards are built for the 99% of the population who are their customers, not the 1%. That statement is a “1% statement”. Lucky you. You might find the glide you are looking for in a really narrow UL board. 14ft is such a compromised length. But you know all this already.

Sorry to hear that you’ve been ill.

What board brand are you getting???
The last board I bought was a 16ft custom from Grey Paddleboards. And the one before that.



Thanks for the info.

RECAP:
Seems like there are a few choices out there. I have been looking at what you guys are saying, including quite a few specs, and quite a few boards that may be promising.

FOR MY NEEDS
The 2017 Sprint is too heavy, and does create an “uncomfortable” tail drag. I have already tried it at Lost Mills - although it’s very close to ideal.

The 2018 Sprint is a bit funky - for my needs. I can see where it will handle open water a little bit better, and has gone back to the drawing board for its filled tail. It starting to veer away from my program.

The NSP seems to have super high sidewalls - not so nice for us smaller paddlers, especially for the wind.

The Nelo board is intriguing. There are a lot of pros, including the fact that it’s “ready to be shipped”, and the fact that I am confident about its built quality that I have already seen first hand. The tail does offer similar drag characteristics as the Starboard Sprint - but that’s just judging from a couple of videos. The weight is a huge HUGE bonus though.

The Mistral Vortex is a really good contender as well: it does have the huge sidewalls that I am not exactly too keen on, but it does offer a super light package, a nicer tail release, and narrow front end.

Grey Paddleboards and other custom boards may very well be an answer to my problem.

The odd-ball of the week, after much reading, is the Huki McMannis. It’s actually quite bizarre because it’s like it took all “my” ideas and create the board in my sleep. Interesting stuff, including its lightweight, hollow construction, almost pin-tail, needle nose, water piercing, etc… Finding one in France may just be a real challenge, and asking for a brand new Mold for a single 14x22 or 14x23 board from Huki might prove quite the challenge as well.

Thanks for all the info: biting my lips now, like a little kid about to go to a candy store.
 
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 07, 2018, 12:31:55 AM
Well, if you are going to go to that level of trouble for a board, why not get a custom from Joe Bark himself?

Or a custom X-series from Mark Raaphorst.

Incidentally, have you tried the SIC RS 14x23 yet?

Part of the problem you face is that most of the leading SUP shapers are ocean people not inland waters people. There aren’t that many well-known truly flat water brands. This may change in time if the ICF get “ownership” of SUP, of course, and brands start developing boards for the Olympic events, which will no doubt be e.g. boring straight line sprints held on rowing lakes etc.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: yugi on February 07, 2018, 02:22:19 AM
The NSP might have more of a deep footwell than high sidewalls.

Take a look at footage of it ridden in the water (like Travis Grant at GlaGla race - sup racer Facebook has a full video of the race). Riders look much lower than on other dugouts.

Best ask Alain T directly. Or Titou.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: burchas on February 07, 2018, 06:49:14 AM
Grey Paddleboards and other custom boards may very well be an answer to my problem.

Now you're going into interesting territory... It looks like you are open some more radical designs:

Take a look at http://www.savageriver.com/sups/rocket I've heard good things about this design.

With specs like yours it looks like you could achieve a super stiff lightweight board. I've seen one
that went narrower than the suggested design and added the Larry Allison 4 fin setup to compensate
for the rounded bottom+Narrow outline combo, which make sense in more than one way.

Another idea I was looking to incorporate (for my own dream flat water board) is the Nelo inverted bow
design: http://www.nelo.eu/en/kayaks/details/viper_46/ which seem to make a lot of sense for flat water.

Look up Patrick Broemmel, he is a master shaper and a damn good paddlers who's actively racing (and winning)
He really understand board designs from a competitor point of view and helped me in the past. You can have
someone like him honing your shape on a 3d file and have it built in closer to home so you can keep an eye one
the process and make sure there are no misunderstandings in the execution.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 07, 2018, 11:00:28 AM
Seems if Robert @ 195 can race on a 21 -> you @ 130 can drop down to a 20.  Will just depend on the design and what sacrifices you want in stability vs glide.  If true you are not concerned about stability go round bottom and pin to pin with zero rocker in a custom build.

The 2017 Sprint 21.5 is a svelte 230L -> so if you tried the 23 that is a much different animal at a tubby 274L.  Personally would not get the 23 as the 230L feels like the perfect volume for me.  From my perspective the triple concave design underside is the right move as it provides a lot of stability even with the chamfered edges.  But if you do not want or need that -> def just go rounded for less drag and better efficiency.
 
Sounds like you really need to just go full-on custom.  So choose one of the designers noted and get exactly what you want.  A production board will not meet your defined specs because the market for your requirements does not generate enough sales to justify.  Most buyers want some stability -> so the brands ditched the rounded bottom approach long ago to broaden their market appeal.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: 2Rivers on February 07, 2018, 01:12:35 PM
Part of the problem you face is that most of the leading SUP shapers are ocean people not inland waters people. There aren’t that many well-known truly flat water brands.
So true! If you're thinking of going custom, check out Flatwater Paddle Co. Mike shaped the Coreban and Lakeshore race boards and has a good reputation for making fast boards. I'm not sure if he's still shaping though.
http://www.flatwaterpaddleco.com

Another option would be a custom BlkBox Sidewinder.
https://www.blkboxsurf.com/sup/custom/sidewinder

404, Bark, Infinity, King's, and Riviera are some other good options for custom shapes.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 07, 2018, 11:27:32 PM
Grey Paddleboards and other custom boards may very well be an answer to my problem.

Now you're going into interesting territory... It looks like you are open some more radical designs:

Take a look at http://www.savageriver.com/sups/rocket I've heard good things about this design.

With specs like yours it looks like you could achieve a super stiff lightweight board. I've seen one
that went narrower than the suggested design and added the Larry Allison 4 fin setup to compensate
for the rounded bottom+Narrow outline combo, which make sense in more than one way.

Another idea I was looking to incorporate (for my own dream flat water board) is the Nelo inverted bow
design: http://www.nelo.eu/en/kayaks/details/viper_46/ which seem to make a lot of sense for flat water.

Look up Patrick Broemmel, he is a master shaper and a damn good paddlers who's actively racing (and winning)
He really understand board designs from a competitor point of view and helped me in the past. You can have
someone like him honing your shape on a 3d file and have it built in closer to home so you can keep an eye one
the process and make sure there are no misunderstandings in the execution.


That's scary!
I have to admit, looking at that black and blue board is like looking at what I was thinking.
It's beautiful - and strangely enough: it just looks RIGHT.

@ Eagle
Yes, alone on dead flat water, I could easily paddle a 19 to 20" standard board (flat bottom, larger tail, etc...). I am however seeking a little bit of stability. 23" on a round hull is gonna glide like crazy nice. 23" on a round hull should have the stability of a 19-20" "traditional" board (flat bottom).

Width of a board is so relative.
It could feel like you lost an inch you shape a board with a super accentuated needed nose.
You could also feel like you lost yet another inch (or two) when creating a board with a rounded hull.
When a board has a needle tail, you could feel like you just lost another inch.
Combining the 3 above criteria (a board with needle nose, rounded hull, pin tail) and you could see yourself having to go to a 24" wide board.

CUSTOM MODIFS
If I do go custom, I'll use something else from the surfski theory, one that almost no one is talking about.
Drains (scuppers) on surfskis have been proven to slow us down.
Paddling with a drain in the close position is always preferred, even in open water.
We had to find an easy way to open and close it with our feet.
Surfski equipped with the DeBrito drain have proven super efficient and easy to operate.
Paddling in the Dead of Winter on such a board will be welcomed (no more wet feet).
** I would want the exact same thing on my custom board **

This would allow me to have incredible added stability, by lowering my center of gravity well below the water level - like on a surfski.

The hull wouldn't be all round
There would be flat "accents" on the hull - also similar to proven surfski - that provide insane added stability.

@YUGI
The NSP does indeed look that way.
I should have tried an NSP a long LONG time ago.
Shame on me.

MOLDED BOARD
Everything else being equal, I'd go with a hollow board any day.
Boards made from a Mold require a plug - a worthy prototype.
There's is no way I will be paying (and waiting) for a custom board, and then paying (and WAITING) for the "custom" Mold to be built, and then waiting and paying for that board to come out of the newly created Mold.

Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Luc Benac on February 08, 2018, 08:08:31 AM
Drains (scuppers) on surfskis have been proven to slow us down.
Paddling with a drain in the close position is always preferred, even in open water.
We had to find an easy way to open and close it with our feet.
Surfski equipped with the DeBrito drain have proven super efficient and easy to operate.

Do you know what is the reason for the slow-down?
Some dugout have simply holes (SB Ace) other have Venturi covers (Sunova/One)
Is the slow-down due to the interaction of the water with the open hole or with teh cover or both can provide a slow down of equal force and are in fact equivalent?
I have been considering plugging the front holes in my Ace-GT that seem to bring more water in than out except when DW.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 08, 2018, 10:19:45 AM
I am however seeking a little bit of stability. 23" on a round hull is gonna glide like crazy nice. 23" on a round hull should have the stability of a 19-20" "traditional" board (flat bottom).....

Combining the 3 above criteria (a board with needle nose, rounded hull, pin tail) and you could see yourself having to go to a 24" wide board.....

** I would want the exact same thing on my custom board **

This would allow me to have incredible added stability, by lowering my center of gravity well below the water level - like on a surfski.

The hull wouldn't be all round
There would be flat "accents" on the hull - also similar to proven surfski - that provide insane added stability.....

MOLDED BOARD
There's is no way I will be paying (and waiting) for a custom board, and then paying (and WAITING) for the "custom" Mold to be built, and then waiting and paying for that board to come out of the newly created Mold.

Ok sounds pretty straightforward then. Looks like you want a sharp pin to pin with a flat accent rounded bottom @24 using a DeBrito drain.

Since it looks like there are no production boards that fit your specific requirements.  Just get a custom made up with zero compromises.  Robert would actually know the 11 City race conditions better firsthand than any other designer. So he seems a viable logical choice.  If in your position -> would get talking to Robert or someone similar who knows that race to design the exact board I want and need.  ;)
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 08, 2018, 10:48:54 AM
My personal choice would be that 2017 Sprint 21.5 I tested -> as my AS23 feels slow and tubby in comparison.  I personally would not go the rounded bottom approach even with a flat accent.  That is the Think design Daryl incorporated into his beginner surfski model.  Ok for that but not so much for SUP.  His hollow SUP has a rounded bottom but is quite wide with a fat tail.  He could drop it down as noted last year -> but he told me there is no market appeal for that.

Actually am a bit surprised you think that 21.5 is too draggy.  If you actually tried it -> yes it does have "some" drag but not a lot vs any other board.  I am perfectly ok with that stability compromise for less width drag.  That is a proven race winning design.

Seemed a lot of racers used the 21.5 Sprint in that race and did ok.  At least would expect to stay dry on that vs a sharp tippy pin to pin.  But keep us posted what you decide in the end.  Not many here seem to like the fun challenge of narrow boards.  Times a ticking.  ;)
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: burchas on February 08, 2018, 04:15:23 PM
That's scary!
I have to admit, looking at that black and blue board is like looking at what I was thinking.
It's beautiful - and strangely enough: it just looks RIGHT.

It does looks right! The icing on the cake with this design - you don't have to worry about drain holes 8)

Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 08, 2018, 10:51:19 PM
@LUC
Drain holes add turbulence to water. Some designs are more prone to affecting speed in a negative way. As a general rule, when you have huge holes (like the ones on the Ace) you will be slowed down on dead-flat water - mostly because of their shear size, left open at all times. Making them smaller (like on the Sprint 17'6 x 23") and you get far less drag. However, making them smaller isn't necessary the answer, because it would defeat the purpose on the Ace - a board which is primarily designed for open water. You'll want that board to drain FAST.

You could cover the holes, and make a slit in the center. That would give you a little less drag, but still allow a little bit of water to escape. This may only be practical for flat or semi flat water though.

Sadly, most manufacturers don't want to mess with added components: Manual drain, rudder, pedal, front leash plug, etc... at least in my opinion.

@EAGLE
Yeah, I still think that the Sprint 14x21.5 is a great contender, especially as a stock board. When I tried it, I immediately compared it with my second favorite board - the Sprint 14x23". In comparaison, the 14x21.5 seemed to glide much better, cut the water like few other boards, and still quite stable. The rear wave wasn't bad, but still quite present with my weight. 

The 14x21.5, while stellar, was still a long LONG ways away from the glide achieved with my 17'6 x 23" - a board so quiet, you know it's fast. Of course, it's comparing apples and oranges, but we both know that for pure flat water, WE CAN IMPROVE the current level of drag - or at least reduce it by a huge margin.

IDEAS?
Take the hull of the Nelo 520 surfski. It's a rounded hull with a very distinct FLAT area for added stability. That would be my wife's surfski. Secondary stability is just amazing for a surfski. Beginners can get on it and pretty much immediately paddle away on dead flat water. Now, cut out the seat on it and place your feet on this flat area. The added stability make it quite do-able to STAND UP PADDLE.

Incidentally, the Nelo 520 surfski glides beautifully on flat water - compared to a SUP. Incidentally, that particular surfski is built for Open Water. Go find the error?!?!

For reference, the Nelo 520 is 51.5cm (20.28") at its widest point, by 520cm (17') for its length. The glide is so amazing (again, compared to any SUP that I know) that you could probably add 2 more inches in width for some added stability - and still have great glide characteristics. Heck, my K2 surfski (with 56cm) has better glide than any SUP board I have ever been on - and its stability while standing is downright amazing - with plenty to spare.

All of this tells me we are indeed making great advancements in the SUP World, but we also have a long ways to go in terms of SHAPE, CONSTRUCTION TECHNIQUES, and ACCESSORIES. I mean, the DeBrito drain was only adopted by many just couple of years ago - and that's insane if you think about how long it took us to figure that one out.

Back to boards - you guys have brought me plenty of new ideas on boards - especially board builders. I have also really opened my eyes and researched a bunch.

I have to balance Shape (custom-made boards) with Construction Type (stock Hollow Boards) - and pounder some more. Tick-Tack, the clock is definitely ticking - but that's a whole lot of money.


Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: IslandFox on February 09, 2018, 02:23:10 AM
Well, if you are going to go to that level of trouble for a board, why not get a custom from Joe Bark himself?

THIS! That blue and black Savage River reminds me of really old Bark boards built for Jimmy Terrell. He knows a thing or two
about flat water.  ::)
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: ukgm on February 09, 2018, 02:48:31 AM
My personal choice would be that 2017 Sprint 21.5 I tested -> as my AS23 feels slow and tubby in comparison.  I personally would not go the rounded bottom approach even with a flat accent.  That is the Think design Daryl incorporated into his beginner surfski model.  Ok for that but not so much for SUP.  His hollow SUP has a rounded bottom but is quite wide with a fat tail.  He could drop it down as noted last year -> but he told me there is no market appeal for that.

Actually am a bit surprised you think that 21.5 is too draggy.  If you actually tried it -> yes it does have "some" drag but not a lot vs any other board.  I am perfectly ok with that stability compromise for less width drag.  That is a proven race winning design.

Seemed a lot of racers used the 21.5 Sprint in that race and did ok.  At least would expect to stay dry on that vs a sharp tippy pin to pin.  But keep us posted what you decide in the end.  Not many here seem to like the fun challenge of narrow boards.  Times a ticking.  ;)

I know of team riders struggling on that board so I think your definition of it being stable is extremely relative !!
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: ukgm on February 09, 2018, 02:51:58 AM
The new Whiplash dugout might be an option there are a few distributors in Europe I believe.

https://www.facebook.com/daveboehneofficial/posts/842264392612407 (https://www.facebook.com/daveboehneofficial/posts/842264392612407)

Wasn't the Mistral Vortex also a good contender in flat water races like 11 City and so on.


The Vortex was heavily copied from the older starboard sprint as a starting point. It's fast but using older shaping theory. The standard one was low on  volume (a problem they later rectified without losing face by releasing the 'XL' version).

The new Fanatic Strike looks interesting though.

I've also seen the light signature Nelo boards. They look great (but is too much for me to personally handle in a large race).
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: burchas on February 09, 2018, 05:29:45 AM
For reference, the Nelo 520 is 51.5cm (20.28") at its widest point, by 520cm (17') for its length. The glide is so amazing (again, compared to any SUP that I know) that you could probably add 2 more inches in width for some added stability - and still have great glide characteristics. Heck, my K2 surfski (with 56cm) has better glide than any SUP board I have ever been on - and its stability while standing is downright amazing - with plenty to spare.

The only issue referencing the Nelo 520 is your 14' constraint. As I understand it, one of key elements for achieving this kind of efficiency is the beam to length ratio of 10:1.
These measurements are not random 20.28":204" (17'). To achieve this ratio on a 14' sup you'll have to be at 16.8" width so you might want to give this consideration in your working theory.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 09, 2018, 05:32:47 AM
Well, if you are going to go to that level of trouble for a board, why not get a custom from Joe Bark himself?

THIS! That blue and black Savage River reminds me of really old Bark boards built for Jimmy Terrell. He knows a thing or two
about flat water.  ::)

Yeah check out the vid:

https://vimeo.com/42578646

Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 09, 2018, 10:31:12 AM
The 14x21.5, while stellar, was still a long LONG ways away from the glide achieved with my 17'6 x 23" - a board so quiet, you know it's fast. Of course, it's comparing apples and oranges, but we both know that for pure flat water, WE CAN IMPROVE the current level of drag - or at least reduce it by a huge margin.

IDEAS?

I have to balance Shape (custom-made boards) with Construction Type (stock Hollow Boards) - and pounder some more. Tick-Tack, the clock is definitely ticking - but that's a whole lot of money.

This idea was actually built years ago.  This board is 11 at waterline and 16 on the deck.  Seems if you want pure FW -> Bark can talk to you about a sleek low profile FW design.  Just have him scale down a SUP to the length you want.  Pin to pin mega low drag with a flat section and drain.  Below the vid is a pic of the "QB Canoe" that Jimmy hoped SUP would eventually not turn into.

https://vimeo.com/66744386
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 09, 2018, 11:27:40 AM
I know of team riders struggling on that board so I think your definition of it being stable is extremely relative !!

Haha!  You must give that board a try at some point.  Even the fatter 23 designed to handle your weight.  Feels so much more efficient.  But we have all seen -> there have been races where a Sprint loses easily to an AS.  So just depends on the rider and conditions etc.

Going too narrow and too tippy has a definite limit.  The feel of a low rocker Sprint in steep chop is not pleasant.  There the early rise and rocker of the AS makes so much more sense.  In my mind for racing you need a wider tail for stability if you want to go narrow.  And a narrower board with tail is faster than a wider pin to pin board.  Especially over longer distances like 11 City where fatigue sets in.  Pin to pin have a pretty narrow sweet zone.

The closest we have to pin to pin is our fat 30 Touring.  Is actually a really good board with a very clean release.  But has way too much width drag to be efficient or fast.  The 27.5 Bark Dom is faster and AS23 way faster on flat.  So yes always relative!  Always compromises.  Always pros and cons.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Luc Benac on February 09, 2018, 11:42:43 AM
@LUC
Drain holes add turbulence to water. Some designs are more prone to affecting speed in a negative way. As a general rule, when you have huge holes (like the ones on the Ace) you will be slowed down on dead-flat water - mostly because of their shear size, left open at all times. Making them smaller (like on the Sprint 17'6 x 23") and you get far less drag. However, making them smaller isn't necessary the answer, because it would defeat the purpose on the Ace - a board which is primarily designed for open water. You'll want that board to drain FAST.
You could cover the holes, and make a slit in the center. That would give you a little less drag, but still allow a little bit of water to escape. This may only be practical for flat or semi flat water though.
Sadly, most manufacturers don't want to mess with added components: Manual drain, rudder, pedal, front leash plug, etc... at least in my opinion.

Thank you.
I noticed that often on flat water there is some water staying in the board as a result of the front holes so I do plug them. Except that I keep loosing the plugs that I painfully cut :-)
I am also using mitigating strategy as per the picture.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 10, 2018, 12:20:50 AM
Well, if you are going to go to that level of trouble for a board, why not get a custom from Joe Bark himself?

THIS! That blue and black Savage River reminds me of really old Bark boards built for Jimmy Terrell. He knows a thing or two
about flat water.  ::)

Thanks for sharing ISLAND.
This is (to me) another example of a really good looking board Design - for flat water.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 10, 2018, 12:57:42 AM
For reference, the Nelo 520 is 51.5cm (20.28") at its widest point, by 520cm (17') for its length. The glide is so amazing (again, compared to any SUP that I know) that you could probably add 2 more inches in width for some added stability - and still have great glide characteristics. Heck, my K2 surfski (with 56cm) has better glide than any SUP board I have ever been on - and its stability while standing is downright amazing - with plenty to spare.

The only issue referencing the Nelo 520 is your 14' constraint. As I understand it, one of key elements for achieving this kind of efficiency is the beam to length ratio of 10:1.
These measurements are not random 20.28":204" (17'). To achieve this ratio on a 14' sup you'll have to be at 16.8" width so you might want to give this consideration in your working theory.


We can't win?! :)
In my opinion, and based on experience, the 10:1 general rule actually should fall between 10:1 and 15:1 - thus making matters even worst.

Worst, because it is clear that:
- I will need a 14' board specifically for the 11-city Tour, AND...
- I will need a UL board 550cm x 55cm (18' x 21.7") - for the purpose of training year-round on flat water, to enjoy true-glide, to train for my other activities, for fun, and for health)

** Anything other than a UL is gonna be a compromise of some sort, so I might as well enjoy, and get something quickly. Why wait 2 to 4 months for a custom 14' ?

** There are plenty of (not perfect) but really good stock 14' boards available.
NSP - Ninja - 14' x 22"
Mistral - Vortex - 14' x 23.4"
Fanatic - Strike - 14' x 21.5"
Starboard - Sprint - 14' x 21.5"
SIC - RS - 14' x 23"
NELO - 14' x 23" (Hollow Board)
And not to forget others like the Bark, the 425 etc...


Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 10, 2018, 01:37:24 AM
“I will need a UL board 550cm x 55cm (18' x 21.7") - for the purpose of training year-round on flat water, to enjoy true-glide, to train for my other activities, for fun, and for health)”

Yes. This is one reason why racing won’t be a long-term proposition for 99% of people. No matter what 14ft board you use, you are still going to feel limited by it. So training day in and day out is frustrating in a way that doesn’t happen with eg. running or swimming or tennis or whatever. The limitations of the equipment suck the inherent pleasure out of the activity. So racing becomes about who can stand the most pain and frustration, not who loves the sport most. My suggestion is that if you truly love paddling, then don’t bother racing, but instead get an UL board of the dimensions you quote, and just paddle for the sheer enjoyment of it. You’ll probably be healthier, and certainly happier.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: burchas on February 10, 2018, 06:14:35 AM
My suggestion is that if you truly love paddling, then don’t bother racing, but instead get an UL board of the dimensions you quote, and just paddle for the sheer enjoyment of it. You’ll probably be healthier, and certainly happier.

^And most definitely end up with more money in your pocket!

We can't win?! :)

There is hope, if you do like racing but don't want to compromise, just enter a race with your favorite vessel and do what you do. If you end up winning a podium just let the one behind you get honors, that is if organizers
won't do it for you.

I did it a couple of times with my custom 16' and had a total blast. I don't race much, but when I do, I would certainly want to test my custom board, into which I've spend so much time and effort, and see
how it fares in race conditions, that's part of the fun in paddling for me and it's my little win :)

It is obvious you're passionate about paddling and vessel design, so I'm sure you'll end up with one killer custom unlimited. I personally think it would make a much more interesting story to read about your exploits
on the 11 city tour with your UFO board. As they say, Go Big or Go Home ;)
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 10, 2018, 06:26:57 AM
What he said ^
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Luc Benac on February 10, 2018, 06:56:43 AM
Specially if you are at reasonable driving distance from a decent customs shaper. If you have to ship across a continent or an ocean then it is more difficult....otherwise a 16~17 flat water light chop customs would be in my horizon for sure for a two boards quiver.
What that it says in the book " and one board to rule them all"...
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 11, 2018, 01:38:55 AM
Good point @AREA and @BURCHAS.
You may very well be right, and SUP racing may slowly take a turn - for the worst.

It's a bit like biking, where the most fun I have ever had HAS BEEN when I wasn't racing. Trips like Fort Lauderdale to Atlanta on one stretch (wearing nothing but a jersey, a pair of shorts, shoes and a credit card) has marked my childhood for LIFE!!!

The "heck" with racing - really.

Here's an off subject:
I've personally watched people on SUP show up at 8am (and packed their boards at 3pm) - after racing a mere 11km on a their boards - side wind one way, and side wind the other way. I was very sad when I heard that because: During that time, I was able to paddle out to an island on my SUP (10km), paddle another 9km along side the entire length of that island, and then enjoy a 17km DW back to shore / home to grab my surfski to finally paddle another 5km to watch the finish of the SUP race and take photos.

Basically, I had a blast and felt like I got a hell of a workout on my 35+ km.
The SUP racers didn't seem to really enjoy themselves.

Putting it all in prospective for the present and near-future:

2018 FLAT WATER BOARD
One 14' stock technical board, specifically for getting back into shape, and dedicated to one race: the 11-city Tour (if I am ready). That will pretty much mark my final race. I am leaning on the NELO Light Corp (14' x 23") - mainly because it's built to last, yet seems technical enough for my needs. 

2018 DW BOARD
My 14'x 25" ACE (the only board that I have right now)

2019: It's still far away, but looks like I'll be on a surfski, and UL board - yet keep the 14' board for the "just in case". All of it will be for the fun, healthy part of it all, and hope to be filled with great adventures.

FLAT WATER BOARD - 2019
Custom flat water board, 550cm x 55cm, needle nose, needle tail, largest point behind the feet, somewhat round, foot-operated DeBrito drain, extremely dug-out standing area for stability, and a tiny rudder. This board should take care of 80% of my SUP paddling needs.

OPTIONAL DW BOARD - 2019
Custom DW board, 550cm x 58cm, narrow nose but tall nose for volume (similar to a Nelo 520), needle tail, largest point behind the feet, somewhat FLAT, foot-operated DeBrito drain, well dug-out standing area, and rudder operated. This board should make a great DW board, yet very capable as a photo-shoot board / touring board on flat water / camping and touring trips / any condition board - especially if weight can be kept to a minimum.

Only time will tell, but in the name of HAVING FUN, we will start with just one more board.
(that's what I keep telling my wife)

:)

Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: burchas on February 11, 2018, 02:07:33 PM
2018 FLAT WATER BOARD
One 14' stock technical board, specifically for getting back into shape, and dedicated to one race: the 11-city Tour (if I am ready). That will pretty much mark my final race. I am leaning on the NELO Light Corp (14' x 23") - mainly because it's built to last, yet seems technical enough for my needs. 

2018 DW BOARD
My 14'x 25" ACE (the only board that I have right now)

2019: It's still far away, but looks like I'll be on a surfski, and UL board - yet keep the 14' board for the "just in case". All of it will be for the fun, healthy part of it all, and hope to be filled with great adventures.

FLAT WATER BOARD - 2019
Custom flat water board, 550cm x 55cm, needle nose, needle tail, largest point behind the feet, somewhat round, foot-operated DeBrito drain, extremely dug-out standing area for stability, and a tiny rudder. This board should take care of 80% of my SUP paddling needs.

OPTIONAL DW BOARD - 2019
Custom DW board, 550cm x 58cm, narrow nose but tall nose for volume (similar to a Nelo 520), needle tail, largest point behind the feet, somewhat FLAT, foot-operated DeBrito drain, well dug-out standing area, and rudder operated. This board should make a great DW board, yet very capable as a photo-shoot board / touring board on flat water / camping and touring trips / any condition board - especially if weight can be kept to a minimum.

Only time will tell, but in the name of HAVING FUN, we will start with just one more board.
(that's what I keep telling my wife)

:)

That sounds like a solid plan. If you do end up getting the Nelo, please post your review after you put some good miles on it.
I'm sure you'll have better pics of the board than Nelo does. 8)

As for the Flat water unlimited, Drain holes VS Debrito, did you ever do a speed test to see how much drag the open hole creates?
The reason I ask is, if the difference is minuscule, the foot operated Debrito might be more trouble than its worth outside the scope of racing.
especially if you're going to include the foot operated rudder.

As much as I like this mechanism, for my own board I would first try to address the drain issue with a good design if possible (e.g. savage river).

Let us know what did you come up with. Would be interesting to see. Good Luck!
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 11, 2018, 10:51:40 PM
The only tests I did was using various surfskis.
The results are simplified below:
Take a surfski, AND MAKE SURE that your drain is in the closed position as often as possible, even during downwind conditions. Once in a while, and on the rare occasion that water enters your cockpit, simply open the drain wide. The DeBrito is the easiest to open and close, the only I can actually open and close with my feet with ease, and the fastest draining of any other competition. It's on all new Nelo surfski, sadly not made by Nelo. Hats off to DeBrito on that one.

In the open position, drag was between 0.3 and 0.4 km/h slower.
That difference was so great that when paddling a V10 Sport Epic surfski with the drain in the open position, speed on flat water was very close to the speed of a V8 Epic surfski.

I repeated this test with the Epic V12 and V10 (standard). Results were nearly identical.

Given a chance, get a manual drain - in fact, get the DeBrito for all the above reasons. Installing it on a SUP is super easy, and operating it with one foot is just THAT simple (I tried it on a K2 and it was childs' play).

...and remember, you are not going to need it open but 10% of the time or so.

I'll keep you guys informed. Meanwhile, training on flat water with an Ace - with plenty of rocker, and lots of open drains (4 of them to be exact - and all oversized).
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 12, 2018, 07:15:46 AM
"One 14' stock technical board, specifically for getting back into shape, and dedicated to one race: the 11-city Tour (if I am ready). That will pretty much mark my final race."

Would seriously go for the Sprint 21.5 over any 23 wide board if looking to maximize glide and efficiency and speed.  But always depends on the skill of the rider.  If you need stability and get dunked -> the 23 will be faster.  Remember Robert at 195 stayed dry in rough water on his fast custom 21.  ;)
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 12, 2018, 08:55:42 AM
Yeah, agreed:
The Sprint 14x21.5 is narrow, and I find it quite stable. It also cuts the water VERY WELL.

It does have couple of things I am not keen on:
- Those multi channels create a lot of turbulence.
- The cut-off tail also adds more drag than I'd like to see.
- It's about 3 pounds heavy - based on what I like to see.

So the Sprint 14x21.5 was plenty stable for me - but does that really mean that a 14x23 with a completely different hull design will be more stable? Not so fast...

A 14x24" SUP with a rounded hull may far more unstable, even more so if you remove tail width and/or nose width. Goes to show that there's more to it than just width to make a board more stable/less stable/faster/slower - and not in any particular order.

Here and again - I have never tried the 14x23 built by Nelo - but it looks plenty technical, with some cool design attributes. I have the perfect body of water, ready for that board and its extensive tests. I also have couple of paddlers all lined up and ready to put that board to the test against their favorite boards. If anything, should be INTERESTING.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Luc Benac on February 12, 2018, 09:07:40 AM
I have the perfect body of water, ready for that board and its extensive tests.

Le lac du Bois de Boulogne ou les salines de Guerande?
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 12, 2018, 09:53:01 AM
When looking at the width of the tail the Nelo looks quite tubby.  Robert did some tests on the weight of the board vs speed.  Kinda remember the speed difference was pretty negligible.  But as noted before -> speed fundamentally depends on the skill of the rider.  Most old intermediates cannot come close to eking out maximum performance of any board.

Instead of being too obsessed with specs would be more concerned with driving increased performance by tuning or turboing the engine.  That for me has been so much more beneficial -> and generated the best gains and most fun for me.  Go for the Sprint 21.5 apples to apples vs the Nelo 23.  Would guess based on my experience no similar fat tail 23 or 24 comes close -> unless you go for that custom sharp pin to pin that is no longer an option for you.

Personally if not the Sprint 21.5 production would go for the custom Robert used or your own spec custom built by Bark.  Bark knows flat water speed design.  Would not expect the Nelo 23 with that fat tail to be as or more efficient than the Sprint 21.5.  But without testing firsthand cannot confirm 100%.  But pretty sure.  ;)
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 12, 2018, 11:09:59 AM
@EAGLE
I totally see what you are saying, and I would have been tempted with the 2017 14x21.5 Sprint, however:

OBVIOUS THINGS THAT HELPED ME MAKE MY DECISION
- The 2018 14x21.5 Sprint doesn't appeal to me
- Nelo's construction is going to be difficult to match
- The weight, while negligible to you, is a big deal to my feather-weight - especially for accelerations
- The lightweight of the Nelo, again, for board handling - is just freekin' cool (8.5 kilos is said to be my board weight)

NO SO OBVIOUS (YET)
- The Sprint 14x21.5 may actually create more turbulence than the Nelo - perhaps because of the channels, perhaps because its tail has such a hard edge, perhaps for other reasons (but, yes, I could be wrong)
- With its rounded V Hull, the Nelo may end up being more technical than the Sprint - yet to be determined.
- It's made in Europe - and that may turn out to be a big deal while residing in France.
- It doesn't use Polyester foam - and that too may eventually turn out to be a big deal as I am trying to be more conscious of it all.

Deciding on a new board that costs over $3000 isn't always so easy. There's only one thing I am certain of:
As soon as my new board arrives, I'll have fun and I will look at ways it could be improved upon - REGARDLESS of which board I buy. :)

I am pretty sure you feel the same way.

@LUC
La Deule (name of the river in Lille, France) will be my goto place for testing boards on dead flat water. It's just very convenient.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Luc Benac on February 12, 2018, 11:17:18 AM
The Nelo looks like a very serious very dedicated board. one thing it does not have in its favour are the aesthetics. That is an ugly contorted shape. But as long as it is super effective and you like it. Who cares.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 12, 2018, 12:51:44 PM
IMO definitely get the Nelo. Starboards are everywhere. Where’s the sense of fun and exploration in getting the same board as everyone else? Much better to be a pioneer than follow the flock.

It doesn’t matter too much what board you get, speed-wise, as long as it’s not a totally laughable dog. The differences attributable to the paddler dwarf any differences in board design, unless perhaps amongst the top 0.1% of elite athletes. If you are a mid-pack racer, your spanking new board might enable you to go up one place or so. But it’s not going to put you on the podium. So why not choose a board that’s a bit different, and that you will learn new things from?
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 12, 2018, 03:07:41 PM
From my perspective with 5 very different boards -> there are not many if any things that I would change or improve upon.  Each board is perfectly designed just the way it is in my mind.  There are always other models to choose from if some other performance characteristic is desired.

I fully understand about light body weight vs light board weight.  But many do not understand about muscle mass to fat mass ratios.  As well as power to weight ratios.  That in most cases is the big part of the performance equation.  In that regards -> a few pounds will not play a huge part of the 11 City race.  The 21.5 Sprint is not a heavy board by any stretch. 

But as noted do not get the 2018.  The open tail 2017 is svelte and the fast option for competent powerful pilots with reasonable balance and skill levels.  After a year and a half with my AS23 can say the CS layup is perfectly ok and plenty strong enough for my uses.

I have a ton of fun on every board all the time.  Simply just pick the one from my quiver based on the conditions that day and challenge desired.  But if you do need more stability go 23.  But most any flat water production fat tail board will go about the same speed.  Remember improve the engine is key -> not board specs.  ;)
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 12, 2018, 11:42:14 PM
Part of the equation was getting a used board like the 2017 Sprint for still quite a bit of money.
Judging from construction techniques still used in 2018, I am going to say that most boards will not handle longevity very well.

DURABILITY
My 2017 Ace 14x25 already has couple of deck bubbles forming, and that board isn't 6 months old yet. The board is otherwise in impeccable conditions, and was mostly stored indoors. That's a $4000 board (3500 euros) - so a bit heart breaking.

On the other hand, surfski construction has proven to be much more durable - even after being store 24+ months outdoors - so the Nelo board just became that much more inviting to me.

But to be fair, boards with Styrofoam aren't really meant to last.

GLIDE
Being limited by a 14' board, we pretty much will agree that gliding is very subjective. The difference in speed from one board to another 14' is going to be rather minimal - so that was kinda removed from the list.

WEIGHT
Please put your Sprint 14x21.5 on a scale. It will most likely read 11 kilos or so. That's about 3 kilos more than the Nelo-built board. Now, granted, this isn't rock climbing where gravity is crucial, however, I have to emphasise couple of things:
- Board handling is crucial to me, mainly because I find it super pleasant to handle a light board. This is especially true after paddling for a 7-hour day. To put it into prospective, try handling a 17 kilo board after 6 or 7 hours - and walk 400 meters with it.
- In a race, (mountain biking, cross country skiing, SUP) I sprint away from my opponents twice every minute, and I repeat this process until they let go. Since most people do not train that way, I often have an advantage and pull away. In that respect, board weight for shear accelerations is pretty crucial TO ME. A difference of 3+ kilos is huge.
- When someone pull away from me in a race, I have more chances of catching up with the least amount of effort when I am on a light board - read Ultra Light Board. 
- If board weight wouldn't be an issue, I'd be on a beautiful wood board - instead, I chose Vacuum carbon sandwich construction, completely hollow, built from a Mold. With this technique, we should see boards in the 7-kilo range in the near future.

IMPROVEMENTS
I don't know... obviously we are different.
Sprint boards were without a doubt my two favorite boards.
My Sprint UL was my all time favorite. Its construction was different than anything Starboard ever built. It lasted. There was in fact very little I wanted to change on that board.

My second favorite board was the 14x23 Sprint (2016 model). It was quite light, still 11.5 kilos including the World's lightest fin. It was very capable in flat water, yet amazingly technical and fun in small to medium downwind conditions. It was a solid built, however:
I would have change quite a few things, after owning it for about 20 minutes.

Rails were too high for my weight.
Board was too heavy.
Standing area could have been increased by about 30 cm in front of my feet.
The release pressure valve could be improved a 1000 times over.
The deck could have been lowered even more.
While quiet on the water, it was light-years behind the 17'6 x 23" in terms of absolute stealth.

This is true with most boards I see, from all brands that I have paddled, so I am just surprised that you would have claimed:
"Each board is perfectly designed just the way it is in my mind"
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 13, 2018, 01:05:59 AM
Yeah talking about design here.  Each designer made choices between flat bottom vs single concave vs deep vee etc.  All have pros and cons in different conditions.  All are perfect shapes in my mind and would not change a thing about them.  That is what makes them different and special in their own ways.

From a board weight perspective I just look at the other racers that completed the 11 City.  Many used production Sprints like the 21.5 and finished ok.  No one seemed too concerned about the weight of their boards.

I personally tested that 21.5 Sprint firsthand so I know that board.  It is simply a killer board for flat glide and efficiency.  That was your main concern.  Pretty sure Robert has much praise for his 21 glide as well.  21 and 21.5 are very slippery widths.  But looks like you decided on the Nelo 23 anyways.  So enjoy.  Would think it should be ok for the 11 City -> but more draggy is all. 
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 15, 2018, 01:25:32 AM
@ EAGLE
I think you may be missing the point.

Looking at 14' boards...
A 27" wide board can have more glide than a 25" wide board.
A perfect example is my friend's custom board 14x27 rounded hull that is way faster than a 14x25 Allstar.
The Allstar 14x25 was actually way more stable - so it's all relevant.

Bluntly stating that the Nelo (at 23" width) will be "more draggy" than the 21.5" Sprint is - to me - an unfounded statement.

To me, the Nelo board width, length, hull shape, lightweight, and construction technique will put that board so close (if not better) than anything out there - but will be determined for sure later.

The only thing for sure is:
The board will not be a slug.
The board will outlast almost anything out there.
The board will be damn light.
I can choose my colors.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 15, 2018, 01:55:52 AM
IMO the advantage of going narrower is more about the ease with which you can get a good stroke than it is the change in drag. It’s about getting the shaft perpendicular, and with ease, on every stroke.

So shorter and/or narrower-shouldered people will benefit more from going narrower than a taller and/or broader-shouldered person. It is also the case that a narrower and lighter person will likely be able to keep a narrower board on an even keel more easily than a heavier and wider person, because the wider person will tend to prefer a wider stance. Preventing roll is very important to speed.

So in other words, the board that will be fast for you in real world conditions is more about ergonomics than it is about small differences in drag, I think. Even if you can stand on a narrower board, it does not mean you will be faster on it in real world conditions. Which is why current board shapes have sacrificed drag for stability. Few (if any) of the current production boards have been designed with low drag as their over-riding design goal. A lot of it is also about ease of drafting, and being drafted.

If you want a really fast 14ft flat water board, the way forward is simple. Buy an old beat-up Starboard K15, and then take that to a competent shaper and ask them to make you a narrower 14ft version of that. Jim Drake knew a thing or two about low drag, and going fast. You can be SURE that that would be a fast board. It would also be tippy. But you don’t get something for nothing. It was the board of choice for races like the 11 cities back in the days before we stupidly killed off the UL class. And if we had let designs evolve naturally rather than stunt our growth through regulation, marketing, and the ubiquity of drafting, today all flat water boards would probably look like narrower versions of the K15.


Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 15, 2018, 02:20:40 AM
I'll agree on the many points you made above. Perhaps people can better understand when I say:
Needle nose
Narrow standing area
Widest width located behind the rider
Narrow to needle tail

I am all-messed-up:
I got me some short legs, a tall torso, and average square shoulders. However, I cannot even begin to emphasise how important and PLEASANT it is to have a narrow catch. Putting me on an Ace GT 17'4 x 27.5" back in the days (with a super wide nose) was like putting a 7 year old kid on a 12 x 32". Aside from looking stupid, it felt stupid.

So now the question:
Is the Nelo 14x23 narrow enough for my taste?
Without even seeing the board yet, I'd say NO. However, it cannot be worst than my 2016 Sprint, which was 14x23 with a rather "bulky" front end.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Luc Benac on February 15, 2018, 06:57:12 AM
IMO the advantage of going narrower is more about the ease with which you can get a good stroke than it is the change in drag. It’s about getting the shaft perpendicular, and with ease, on every stroke.
So shorter and/or narrower-shouldered people will benefit more from going narrower than a taller and/or broader-shouldered person. It is also the case that a narrower and lighter person will likely be able to keep a narrower board on an even keel more easily than a heavier and wider person, because the wider person will tend to prefer a wider stance. Preventing roll is very important to speed.
So in other words, the board that will be fast for you in real world conditions is more about ergonomics than it is about small differences in drag, I think. Even if you can stand on a narrower board, it does not mean you will be faster on it in real world conditions.

Yes, yes and yes....I would also add that be able to stay on a narrower board without falling in, is one thing but be comfortable on it so that you can keep power through quartering chop and during 15 km is another. With my morphology and limited technique, I have found that on most shape I have tried, 25" is the lower limit and 27" the higher one. Even a super stable board like the Blackfish does not get to be comfortable for me in 24". I have not tried yet a dugout in 24" which might make a difference as it lowers the centre of gravity and change the dynamic of the stroke but doubt that it would be positive as 25" is already narrow enough for me to permit a vertical shaft without leaning too much.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 15, 2018, 08:25:46 AM
Just look at the photo posted earlier.  The Sprint looks more sleek at the nose and at the tail vs the Nelo.  To reduce a draggy wide tail it makes sense to make it sleek.

The Nelo front is not needle nosed and the tail is not "Almost pintail....."  Pretty much all wide tail 23s are pretty draggy so it was surprising you went for the Nelo.

The winning board was a Sprint.  Where did the first in Nelo place?

What seems to be lost in your discussion is that Robert at 195 stayed dry in rough water on a 21.  That should indicate to you how narrow is narrow if stability is no concern to you.  For lowest drag the pin to pin was the right option.

http://www.supracer.com/2017-sup-11-city-tour-final-results/
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 15, 2018, 10:22:49 AM
Yeah… I had to rethink my priorities.
With my 130-140 pounds, I could easily go with a 18x21" board to ensure max glide, max speed, and best narrow catch. This is not about maxing out anything; this is about a 14' board - so my priorities had to be moved around some.

I was down to two contenders:
The Nelo 14x23" and the Sprint 14x21.5

Your heart might be telling you to go with the 2017 Sprint – and so you really should. Mine is telling me to go with the 2018 Nelo.

I agree that the entire front of the Nelo board might in fact be larger than the 21.5 Sprint. The Nelo has a different design so I cannot comment on speed comparisons based just on the bow.

I also agree that the tail outside dimensions on the Nelo may also be wider, but I am not so sure on the water level. What I am pretty sure of is that the Nelo tail has a far better release (lack of multi channel, lack of abruptly cut rear-end, lack of hard edges, etc… when compared with the 21.5 Sprint)

Speed?
Speed is relative – relative with who will be on the board. Come on, you know that, right?!

Seeing a few boards cross the finish line first gives you an idea of what board isn’t a slug, but doesn’t tell you jack about what board is the fastest in the World. It tells you even less about what board will be the fastest for the “average Joe”.

2018, Connor Baxter could probably make my ironing board plane.
2017, The two brothers would have probably come in first and second place using a Mistral. 
2016, one could say that the second fastest board in the WORLD is a 14x23” Sprint – since it came in second place at Lost Mills.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9npNWJC/1/e5449694/L/i-9npNWJC-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-May-27-SB-Fastest/n-zv9j9v/i-9npNWJC/A)


Back to Earth, I had my priorities. Here’s me telling you why I did what I did. Perhaps you’ll agree, perhaps you won’t… just keep in mind that since I had to pay for it, it had to match MY NEEDS – as follows:

Durability
Lightweight
Outside-the-box (hollow) construction
The semi-inverted bow
Delivery Delays
Custom Colors
The cool-looking V-hull on the tail
Total price
Made in Europe
Not a slug – not by a long shot
Last, but not least: A little more “green” for the planet

Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Eagle on February 15, 2018, 02:06:00 PM
Can say for durability the Think XOR looked and felt brand new after being raced hard and used as a demo for years.  It is hollow and based on the Think surfski.  Often it is dragged over rocks and abused but is still in good condition.  If I did not have my Bark would buy that demo from Daryl.  If I needed a 2017 Sprint 21.5 would buy or borrow the one Mike has.

As noted many times before -> speed is always a function of the skill and power of the pilot.  Not the board.  That has been hashed over and over again.  The board used is not too important as any proven fast design is fast -> irregardless of the brand.

Mo won on an unsponsored brand.  AA won on an unsponsored brand.  That is all old news.  Basically just race in the 11 City and let us know how you finish.  Is all speculation right now anyways about how much drag this -> how much drag that.  ;)

http://thinkstandup.com/xor/
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: ukgm on February 18, 2018, 10:41:38 AM
I had the chance to get of a Nelo relatively affordably mid last year. I decided not to as I felt the board might be beyond me and if that was the case, selling it would be a nightmare. I played safe (and not for the first time). Had I been able to actually get on a demo on it I might have felt differently. I still hope to at some point.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 19, 2018, 10:32:38 AM
I had the chance to get of a Nelo relatively affordably mid last year. I decided not to as I felt the board might be beyond me and if that was the case, selling it would be a nightmare. I played safe (and not for the first time). Had I been able to actually get on a demo on it I might have felt differently. I still hope to at some point.
Probably the right decision, and your size.

Why don't you just buy a SIC RS? You know it's the board for you :)

And btw why aren't you competing at some sport where your size is a positive, rather than doing all these sports where the elite guys are all 150lbs and even Dave Kalama would get his ass kicked by a 15 year-old from Hawaii these days? :)
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: ukgm on February 19, 2018, 10:57:19 AM
I had the chance to get of a Nelo relatively affordably mid last year. I decided not to as I felt the board might be beyond me and if that was the case, selling it would be a nightmare. I played safe (and not for the first time). Had I been able to actually get on a demo on it I might have felt differently. I still hope to at some point.
Probably the right decision, and your size.

Why don't you just buy a SIC RS? You know it's the board for you :)

And btw why aren't you competing at some sport where your size is a positive, rather than doing all these sports where the elite guys are all 150lbs and even Dave Kalama would get his ass kicked by a 15 year-old from Hawaii these days? :)

I don’t know. I’ve always gone with what I’ve enjoyed and then made the best of it. I guess I should have been a rower really but I literally missed the boat.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 19, 2018, 12:21:31 PM
Hate to break it to you mate, but you missed the boat for SUP too :)

There are teenage girls now who’d kick your ass in most races!

But there is dignity and purpose in trying to keep up with the youngsters I guess. The UK old farts brigade are lucky that there aren’t more youngsters who SUP race. Strange that they don’t get too excited about the prospect of flogging themselves to death round a dirty lake for an hour in subzero temperatures and howling winds and rain on a miserable dark UK day. My teenage kids took one look at SUP racing and couldn’t quite see the glamour and glory in it. So back to football they went...
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: warmuth on February 19, 2018, 05:35:02 PM
  Sup racing will forever be predominately middle age men at the non tour level. Thats ok though, endurance and wisdom are about all we have left and sup racing is a great test for that. Kids, in large numbers, aren't ever really going to be drawn to grinding, less immediately gratifying, sports. Trying to compete with youngsters as an aging athlete in any sport is foolhardy anyway, this is not restricted to sup.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 19, 2018, 09:31:44 PM
  Sup racing will forever be predominately middle age men at the non tour level. Thats ok though, endurance and wisdom are about all we have left and sup racing is a great test for that. Kids, in large numbers, aren't ever really going to be drawn to grinding, less immediately gratifying, sports. Trying to compete with youngsters as an aging athlete in any sport is foolhardy anyway, this is not restricted to sup.
Absolutely true. But much as I love the fact that the sport is so appealing to the older athlete -and indeed has turned some older couch potatoes into athletes, the absence of teenagers at the local level has arguably allowed some middle-aged racers to become legends in their own minds. When I first tandem SUPed with one of my sons when he was 10 I was actually shocked at how much absolute power he was able to generate at the blade, never mind the power-to-weight. And this was before technique training. Two years later the situation was even more extraordinary. If he had decided to race, within a couple of weeks he’d have been kicking my ass, even though I’ve been working on my technique and fitness for 11 years now.

This skewed demographic (overwhelming predominance of older athletes, except at the very elite end) really sets SUP apart from many other sports. It’s largely a safe haven for the older athlete in many spots. Far away from those irksome kids who remind us of how much we have lost. But I assume that as SUP inevitably starts to become taught formally more widely, like eg. swimming or anything else, then slowly the old farts will overwhelmed by the youngsters, and the days of the middle-aged hero will be over. It’s kinda sad I guess, but might be sign of progress, and as long as the juniors being faster than the Masters racers doesn’t put the Masters/Veterans off too much, then hopefully it might even widen participation.

 
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 19, 2018, 11:31:11 PM
Perhaps we can even the field a bit - at our old age.

Put kids on a budget and have them use 12' or 14' board, or even an economical inflatable board.
Put the wiser men and women on ultimate flat water ULs, and that should even things out a little. :)

Maybe restrictions are good and a new rule may read as follows:
UL (with or without rudders) - available on all races as soon as you reach 50.
or...
We make ULs - specifically for old farts.

In all seriousness, attendance may be sparked, and we may actually have more people in races.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: ukgm on February 19, 2018, 11:33:57 PM
Hate to break it to you mate, but you missed the boat for SUP too :)

There are teenage girls now who’d kick your ass in most races!

But there is dignity and purpose in trying to keep up with the youngsters I guess. The UK old farts brigade are lucky that there aren’t more youngsters who SUP race. Strange that they don’t get too excited about the prospect of flogging themselves to death round a dirty lake for an hour in subzero temperatures and howling winds and rain on a miserable dark UK day. My teenage kids took one look at SUP racing and couldn’t quite see the glamour and glory in it. So back to football they went...

Agreed. Something I've chatted about with several of our best (but aging) domestic sup competitors is why so many of us are still doing relatively well and why several of the under 25's should be doing better. The reason I think is that sup is still too led by fashion or is a lifestyle sport than one of absolute performance. There are a couple of under 25's I could take and make a lot better with some structure and knowledge but the price would be that it would sanitise the sport. This happened to cross country mountain biking in the mid 90's and it didn't end well.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 12:40:14 AM
Well it’s partly that the long format of the races doesn’t appeal to youngsters. Ifvraces were no more than 15 mins long you’d probably get more youngsters - and they’d do relatively better. Lots of older paddlers are happy to slog it out for hours on end, and their endurance remains quite respectable. But youngsters get bored and it’s not necessarily desirable to be pushing them hard for very long periods even if you can get them to do it. So the whole racing scene has been created to play to the strengths of the oldsters, and the effect, deliberate or not, has been to keep the kids out.

Places where the race formats are more exciting (eg. beach races or downwinding), and the weather is warmer, have generally had more success in attracting youngsters into the sport.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 01:02:51 AM
Well it’s partly that the long format of the races doesn’t appeal to youngsters. Ifvraces were no more than 15 mins long you’d probably get more youngsters - and they’d do relatively better. Lots of older paddlers are happy to slog it out for hours on end, and their endurance remains quite respectable. But youngsters get bored and it’s not necessarily desirable to be pushing them hard for very long periods even if you can get them to do it. So the whole racing scene has been created to play to the strengths of the oldsters, and the effect, deliberate or not, has been to keep the kids out.


You may well be right. It was certainly the way in track cycling, mountainbiking and snowboarding with formats like a modernised omnium, 4-cross and boardercross respectively. I also think though that older competitors in many sports do have a tendency to gravitate to longer distances as their experience increases, their speed fades or their disposable time increases to train for them.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: warmuth on February 20, 2018, 07:22:35 AM
  Sup racing will forever be predominately middle age men at the non tour level. Thats ok though, endurance and wisdom are about all we have left and sup racing is a great test for that. Kids, in large numbers, aren't ever really going to be drawn to grinding, less immediately gratifying, sports. Trying to compete with youngsters as an aging athlete in any sport is foolhardy anyway, this is not restricted to sup.
Absolutely true. But much as I love the fact that the sport is so appealing to the older athlete -and indeed has turned some older couch potatoes into athletes, the absence of teenagers at the local level has arguably allowed some middle-aged racers to become legends in their own minds. When I first tandem SUPed with one of my sons when he was 10 I was actually shocked at how much absolute power he was able to generate at the blade, never mind the power-to-weight. And this was before technique training. Two years later the situation was even more extraordinary. If he had decided to race, within a couple of weeks he’d have been kicking my ass, even though I’ve been working on my technique and fitness for 11 years now.

This skewed demographic (overwhelming predominance of older athletes, except at the very elite end) really sets SUP apart from many other sports. It’s largely a safe haven for the older athlete in many spots. Far away from those irksome kids who remind us of how much we have lost. But I assume that as SUP inevitably starts to become taught formally more widely, like eg. swimming or anything else, then slowly the old farts will overwhelmed by the youngsters, and the days of the middle-aged hero will be over. It’s kinda sad I guess, but might be sign of progress, and as long as the juniors being faster than the Masters racers doesn’t put the Masters/Veterans off too much, then hopefully it might even widen participation.

  There are always age classes that address that. I’m sure a few egos might not be able to handle being beaten outright by anyone but the same 5 guys own the podium at every race anyway. The entire rest of the field is well aware they’ll never win but they show up anyway and would likely continue to do so no matter who’s winning.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 08:10:13 AM
  There are always age classes that address that. I’m sure a few egos might not be able to handle being beaten outright by anyone but the same 5 guys own the podium at every race anyway. The entire rest of the field is well aware they’ll never win but they show up anyway and would likely continue to do so no matter who’s winning.

^Well said.

in many cases those participants don't even know nor care about who won. They only find out about it when they go to
look up the official result online. Happened to me more than once.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 10:10:36 AM
  There are always age classes that address that. I’m sure a few egos might not be able to handle being beaten outright by anyone but the same 5 guys own the podium at every race anyway. The entire rest of the field is well aware they’ll never win but they show up anyway and would likely continue to do so no matter who’s winning.
:)
Well in the UK I shouldn’t think anyone under the age of 30 has won more than about 10% of races in any one year (this might be an exaggeration but if so I’m sure that ukgm will provide the correct statistic). And the average age of racers at any event is probably around 35, and maybe higher. So the advent of the kids, when and if it happens, will be felt very keenly.

When SUP racing started in the UK the British champions were almost exclusively mostly surfers and guys from other Watersports. At some point the scene was invaded by the triathletes. They trained much harder and were fitter so they started winning.  Almost immediately, most of the the previous cohort of racers stopped racing. So I’m wondering if the same thing will happen when the kids arrive: the oldsters, unable to cope with not winning any more, will exit stage left. Many of the best racers race because they like winning, rather than because they like paddling, particularly. They’ll do anything where they stand a better chance of winning. The skewed age demographic of SUP has encouraged this in some places more than others, I suspect. I’m not sure we have *any* young (under 25) female racers who have graced the podium in recent years, have we ukgm? You’d almost think you have to be over 40 to race as a woman in the UK :)
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 10:24:23 AM
Many of the best racers race because they like winning, rather than because they like paddling, particularly. They’ll do anything where they stand a better chance of winning

Well, if those types quit paddling, not a big lose for the sport IMO. I wish they would do anything to better their chances of winning, we would probably see some innovation
in board design as they are likely more economically sound but as it stands they'll probably move on to the next target.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: ukgm on February 21, 2018, 05:27:13 AM
Well in the UK I shouldn’t think anyone under the age of 30 has won more than about 10% of races in any one year (this might be an exaggeration but if so I’m sure that ukgm will provide the correct statistic). And the average age of racers at any event is probably around 35, and maybe higher. So the advent of the kids, when and if it happens, will be felt very keenly.

When SUP racing started in the UK the British champions were almost exclusively mostly surfers and guys from other Watersports. At some point the scene was invaded by the triathletes. They trained much harder and were fitter so they started winning.  Almost immediately, most of the the previous cohort of racers stopped racing. So I’m wondering if the same thing will happen when the kids arrive: the oldsters, unable to cope with not winning any more, will exit stage left. Many of the best racers race because they like winning, rather than because they like paddling, particularly. They’ll do anything where they stand a better chance of winning. The skewed age demographic of SUP has encouraged this in some places more than others, I suspect. I’m not sure we have *any* young (under 25) female racers who have graced the podium in recent years, have we ukgm? You’d almost think you have to be over 40 to race as a woman in the UK :)
There was a survey that went out in the UK not too long back that (if I recall correctly) suggested most racers only do 4-5 events a year on average. With that in mind, you don't always see the same people doing well but you do see the same faces pop up at the few 'big' UK events we have (Dart, Thames, etc). Whilst we have had a series, it's lost prestige and interest. This isn't helped by many of the big UK SUP names of the last 2-3 years I know locally moving on to OC1 paddling now.

I agree with you on the triathlete analogy though. A lot of the guys that train in my club may well be watersports fanatics now but the majority of those that race have some form of reputable endurance background and didn't just migrate in from surfing or other wind sports. There are some exceptions to this but many of the UK's first wave that did come from that background have moved on. That said, I still get a few open mouths when I tell people that my 2 hour paddles aren't really long enough (but that they are the minimum I would personally be comfortable with to go racing with as a foundation).

There are some very good female racers in the UK but of the top 4 or 5 that jump to mind, none of them are south of 35 (and most, not south of 40). The numbers are low generally though.

However, one thing this sport does have in its favour is that due to low impact and a focus on technique, you can hold your standing later in life than you could in sports like running. It's one of the reason I've stuck with both cycling and SUP as I have seen plenty of guys not show any slowing down in those until past 50 years of age. If I were still doing triathlons, it would already have started for me at 40. The main reason for my recent weight loss experiment and change in training methods (think 'Rocky does SUP') was due to the likes of Larry Cain pushing nearly 60 and UK stalwart Mark Slater at nigh on 50 (and who crushed me in a local SUP time trial I organised a couple of months ago). It ain't over and I hope that we develop our own national championships in time that allows for age grouping to give us all something to keep going for. I dropped Team Starboards Ben Pye at the Dart last year halfway into the race who was only 16 I think but I know I'm only 36-48 months away from him spanking me and everyone else for six once he develops some endurance as he physically matures.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: ukgm on February 21, 2018, 05:32:27 AM
  Sup racing will forever be predominately middle age men at the non tour level. Thats ok though, endurance and wisdom are about all we have left and sup racing is a great test for that. Kids, in large numbers, aren't ever really going to be drawn to grinding, less immediately gratifying, sports. Trying to compete with youngsters as an aging athlete in any sport is foolhardy anyway, this is not restricted to sup.
Absolutely true. But much as I love the fact that the sport is so appealing to the older athlete -and indeed has turned some older couch potatoes into athletes, the absence of teenagers at the local level has arguably allowed some middle-aged racers to become legends in their own minds. When I first tandem SUPed with one of my sons when he was 10 I was actually shocked at how much absolute power he was able to generate at the blade, never mind the power-to-weight. And this was before technique training. Two years later the situation was even more extraordinary. If he had decided to race, within a couple of weeks he’d have been kicking my ass, even though I’ve been working on my technique and fitness for 11 years now.

This skewed demographic (overwhelming predominance of older athletes, except at the very elite end) really sets SUP apart from many other sports. It’s largely a safe haven for the older athlete in many spots. Far away from those irksome kids who remind us of how much we have lost. But I assume that as SUP inevitably starts to become taught formally more widely, like eg. swimming or anything else, then slowly the old farts will overwhelmed by the youngsters, and the days of the middle-aged hero will be over. It’s kinda sad I guess, but might be sign of progress, and as long as the juniors being faster than the Masters racers doesn’t put the Masters/Veterans off too much, then hopefully it might even widen participation.

  There are always age classes that address that. I’m sure a few egos might not be able to handle being beaten outright by anyone but the same 5 guys own the podium at every race anyway. The entire rest of the field is well aware they’ll never win but they show up anyway and would likely continue to do so no matter who’s winning.

Recreational and clrusier classes also allow for this (thats why cycle sportifs, gran fondo's and 'park runs' are seeing huge numbers that the races don't see. It allows you to race covertly but opt out with no fallout if you don't.

The biggest races in the UK last year ? The SUPbikerun triathlon (300+) and the national SUP club champs (~270). Both of those were informal and very laid back. In fact the most presitgious race we have (arguably the 'Head of the Dart' see's ~250 racers but only ~80 of those are in the elite race. The rest are in the leisure paddle.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Area 10 on February 21, 2018, 10:31:52 AM
ukgm - well that shows that most people have got their heads screwed on then! And there's a clear steer for event organisers. btw did you not include SUP Armada in that?

On the age thing, it's actually quite curious watching children paddle, and see how much more paddle power than you expect they seem to be able to generate, once they know which end of the paddle is which.  Presumably it's to do with using a full range of motion, managing to get more muscles involved. But I can't quite see how they do it, frankly. If we knew, then I wonder whether adult paddlers could improve by following their example.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: ukgm on February 21, 2018, 11:04:14 AM
ukgm - well that shows that most people have got their heads screwed on then! And there's a clear steer for event organisers. btw did you not include SUP Armada in that?


True, I forgot that one. I never got exact numbers on it (as there was a difference between the elite race and the Guinness World Record attempt) but I think I do have that data somewhere. Sadly, that event has been cancelled this year but on paper so far, I think the Dart will be the top SUP specific event as it sold out all 250 slots in 48 hours. I can't see anything other than the club champs getting anywhere near that.
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: photofr on February 21, 2018, 11:18:30 AM
Children seem to naturally use their entire body to do things... While paddling, you'll notice them using toes and all. Indeed, we should take note, because it's the best way to prevent injuries (instead of relying on a single muscle mass, as most adult beginners seem to)
Title: Re: Recommended FLAT WATER board
Post by: Paddle lite on May 30, 2020, 03:57:23 PM
Part of the problem you face is that most of the leading SUP shapers are ocean people not inland waters people. There aren’t that many well-known truly flat water brands.
So true! If you're thinking of going custom, check out Flatwater Paddle Co. Mike shaped the Coreban and Lakeshore race boards and has a good reputation for making fast boards. I'm not sure if he's still shaping though.
http://www.flatwaterpaddleco.com

Another option would be a custom BlkBox Sidewinder.
https://paddleboardsurf.com/

404, Bark, Infinity, King's, and Riviera are some other good options for custom shapes.

I agree that most of the best SUP builders are going to be people that live near the ocean and will build their boards to handle those waters.  But, there are a lot more companies that make different styles of boards now. 

Some of the SUP companies make boards for fishing.  If you fishing, you basically want flat water.  So it might be worth considering a fishing style SUP if you can't find one that is specifically made for flatwater.  Just an idea anyway.
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