Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: dns on October 01, 2017, 12:00:28 PM
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https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-Coming-Carbon-Fiber-Hydrofoil-Water-Wings-for-Foil-Sup-High-Strength-carbon-Hydrofoil-Thrust-Surf/1967603_32832517441.html
And really looks like they've nailed a bunch of good points. Plate mount, nice fat wing, short mast, GoFoil style fuselage and all carbon. Doesn't appear to be a blatant rip-off of any one design, just a combination of all the features I want in a SUP foil.
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I've been contacted by three separate outfits about importing Chinese foils. No idea how the decided I'd be interested. All of them look pretty good.
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They are not shy about using name brands on their knock off foils.
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Hey, you're only saving 1300 bucks or more.
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Interesting. In the bicycle industry, the Chinese direct companies have pretty much taken over the market for aftermarket carbon wheels and frames, among racers and serious geeks anyway. We've been riding their products for years. I should be dead right now because the Chinese products are poorly made and not tested, according the the bicycle industry anyway. Kind of funny since that's where the vast majority of bikes come from anyway. There are probably some crappy products available, but through consumer testing and review, it quickly becomes apparent which products are decent. Yeah, warranty claims might be difficult, but with the amount of money you save, it can be worth the risk.
There are quite a few bike companies, at least two in Portland alone, that buy this stuff, put their stickers on it, and sell it at about a 300% mark up as their own brand.
I've bought two sets of carbon wheels and a frame direct from China and had zero issues. Even the customer service can be really good. With the wheels I was able to chat on line with a rep and order exactly the wheels I wanted, a true custom build, and have it delivered, carefully packaged, to my door three weeks later. It would be hard to get that kind of service locally unless you live in a large city.
These foils seem pretty simple to manufacture and I can see this becoming a common source for these things.
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Considering it looks like the have a gofoil in the back ground with the tail on upside down, would I trust them with what looks like there own design no very much not. Like bill I have had a few of these suppliers email me about them but most look shocking.
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It will take them a while to figure it out--the manufacturers get minimal feedback and have no real way to do R&D. But they'll get there if the market gets stronger than it probably is right now--and somebody establishes a quality requirement. The limitation of the Chinese manufacturer isn't lack of imagination, it's that many of the products they make are never used domestically.
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Hey anyone seen one with a deep Tuttle box?
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Sho Sho...
一定一定。我看过那么非常便宜。 ;)
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It had to happen, there were so many new foil companies popping up, like the surfboard and sup market it will be the start of prices falling in competition with retailers importing foils. If the foil market is like the sup market people will vote for cheap.
The high end foils will have a market with the pros and competent riders but the other 90% will go to the Chinese.
One solution would be to keep innovating so there’s no standard to copy. If design moves forward by the time the copies are made they are out of date. For such a new product that’s not impossible.
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^^^You got that right. The only way to battle knockoff is to out-innovate. Make sure they are always building last year's product. Works for a while until you run out of easy innovation.
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https://m.alibaba.com/product/60671081903/Gather-Sport-New-Designed-hydrofoil-electric.html?spm=a2706.7843667.1998817009.48.SHZl5P
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One of the ways US manufacturers create interest and opportunity for Asian knockoff is by managing to sell a few of a new, innovative product at a high price. Foils, in general, are expensive for the amount of material that goes into their manufacture--very attractive to Chinese companies with experience in composite molding. Electric foils have an insane price. That's absolutely candy for manufacturers with appropriate products and experience. Hell, I thought about knocking them off myself but got distracted. A well equipped and engineered electric foil with a one-hour battery will ultimately retail for somewhere between two and three thousand. I base that on the notion that I could build a one-off for about that. If I can do that buying the parts retail, the Chinese can do it for less than half.
That link Comeau posted looks like a placeholder from a company that knows how to do surfboard propulsion. It's not simple to add a foil to that existing tech, but it's not hard either.
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Bill, yes the lure to attract Chinese knock offs is the profit margin, almost every week there’s another foil company popping up and due to competition the prices are coming down. As the profit drops only the best will want to continue but the Chinese will corner the low end / entry / casual market.
If foils started cheap there wouldn’t be so much competition.
The market could be flooded with $99 foils if they went to injection molding.
Innovation is underplayed these days.
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The market could be flooded with $99 foils if they went to injection molding.
Bring It!!!!!
I want to do some flying.
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The current foil makers are smartly changing designs so there’s movement there, sadly buying a product is not like a service but should be.
I went to a big sup foil evening here a few days ago and apart from the lack of drinks, food, direction or information, there was a clear pecking order of who was friends with whom. Not that I know anything about foils to discuss.
The other 40 people in the room were ignored. If you’re selling a product you still have to provide a service, it’s called customer service. I’ve heard it here before, people were going to buy something but decided to go on holiday or spend their money elsewhere. Your competition in selling a foil isn’t the other foil guys but every retailer.. Price is a big deal but customer service in its many forms brings repeat business and new contacts. That’s the advantage local guys have.
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$200 for a foil.
http://www.vet-research.net/product-tag/sup-hydrofoil.html
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You can expect to pay at least double that if you just want one however and then shipping is normally about $150 then probably some import duty so it does add up a bit. There was one I was considering but of all the cheap Chinese stuff I have had in the past it's always been a huge let down in quality and the picture often can be totally different to what you get so there is a big gamble when getting the China back door stuff. Personally I'm willing to pay a bit more for peace of mind.
I believe go foil is already dropping there prices however and there are a number of windsurf foils now the are very reasonable so it won't be long till that filters around.
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Quality would be foremost if one were to use one for downwinding. Having a break out in the open ocean, well I don't want to even think about it. No one has hit a turtle yet but it'll happen. We got millions of them right on or just under the surface. I've even hit them with my slow ass SUP DW board.
So yeah cheap sounds great until you're swimming.
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I've purchased 6 Chinese foils from different companies and none are a direct knockoff of any brand, some come close but none use the downturned rear wing of the Go Foil or Naish. it seems strange they use front wing design similar to those but not the rear wing. From my testing, they lift and fly but lack in the pump. So that's got me guessing they are influenced in design from a western designer from kite foiling as they are so locked on high aspect ratios. Just a thought but if you are going to rip something off , why not just copy it. I personally think the Chinese are being fed designs from western punters trying to make a quick buck and all designs are being shared amongst the factories and butchered bringing out marginal foil designs IMHO.
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Piros, looks like there's a business in making Western tails for Chinese copies of half-assed Western foils designs. Lol
Just ship them back and forth a few more times and we'll have price parity with the name brands.
Thanks for the research, that sounds like a pretty good idea of what's going on. That is weird about them not really knocking them off well, but it also speaks to the fact that we are in the early stages of all this. Even the knock off business isn't developed.
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I've purchased 6 Chinese foils from different companies and none are a direct knockoff of any brand, some come close but none use the downturned rear wing of the Go Foil or Naish. it seems strange they use front wing design similar to those but not the rear wing. From my testing, they lift and fly but lack in the pump. So that's got me guessing they are influenced in design from a western designer from kite foiling as they are so locked on high aspect ratios. Just a thought but if you are going to rip something off , why not just copy it. I personally think the Chinese are being fed designs from western punters trying to make a quick buck and all designs are being shared amongst the factories and butchered bringing out marginal foil designs IMHO.
This is where the zone is really valuable when there are posts like this of actual experience. Thanks Piros.
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This is a typical China foil flogging the market I'm talking about , good looking & good construction foil full carbon but the mast and fuselage has Aluminium inside , so about the same weight as the Naish but 3 pounds heavier than the GoFoil. Front wing design looks good but on closer inspection, the rear wing has the foiling upside down and that's what kills the pump . It's supposed to be wing tips up. I have flipped the rear wing with and will give that a try tomorrow to see how it goes, possibly might work a bit better. All questions to the factory "why is it like this" ...no answer, they really have no idea of any foil concept. This is a pic of the China foil with the Kai foil on top and the Naish beside it , it's close but all the important things are wrong. It still works and glides with some grunt but lacks low speed foiling. Maybe more suited to a short board but not a Sup.
I have a saying in refitting boats "The poor man always pays the most" after replacing his cheap parts with genuine products. If you want to learn to foil just buy a foil you know that works. It's a hell of alot faster and safer to learn and I have the scars to prove it over the past year. I have a dozen foils in my shed and the only two I ride now on my Sup are the Naish & GoFoil. I'll keep testing and trying everything that comes out but they are my pick for now. I have track mount and tuttle mounts in all my boards for testing fair comparisons.
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Piros
I saw that Chinese knock off foil at Surf Exp. There was a guy planning to import them and retail at $995.
But, the one I held in my hand felt about 7 lbs. best guess. Lighter than all the aluminum ones at the show. I wish I had taken a photo of it. I can’t recall if stab was upside down.
What turned me off, was the foil being flattish with pointy leading edge. Clearly a MHL Lift knockoff, just a bigger front wing.
Anyway, thought you might find it interesting to know there is a slightly lighter version coming from somewhere in China.
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No one has hit a turtle yet but it'll happen.
There was a kiter out at Sherman Island a few years ago that took out a huge 19lb salmon on a foilboard. Afterwards was Sashimi time!
http://www.bayareakiteboarding.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13129
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Yeah good observation Dwight , 100% Lift fuselage here is a pic of it next to my 150sq" Lift. The more I look at the Lift now the China foil has used some of the Lift foiling contorures, then made the wings larger and shaped the front wing like a Go Foil then used the design concept of the Lift on the rear but turned up the wing tips. Bit of a dogs breakfast.
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No one has hit a turtle yet but it'll happen.
I met a windsurf foiler a few days ago who drove two hours to foil our spot, because at his home spot, he’s hit turtles twice.
Each impact broke his board. He was down to his last board when he came to our spot.
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and all designs are being shared amongst the factories and butchered bringing out marginal foil designs IMHO.
(https://i.imgflip.com/1xqij6.jpg)