Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => SUP General => Topic started by: Clemdog on September 29, 2017, 03:41:39 PM
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Does anyone know what companies will be there with Demo boards? No info at all on the PPG website. I like to go try out the boards in the surf, if for no other reason than to piss off the surfers, since the Demo zone gives us a pass to a surf zone otherwise off limits to SUP.
Kind of like Caddy day at the pool!
Clem
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It's flat
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I'm bringing my own surf SUP just in case. Kings had some last year.
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It's flat
That's too bad. At least since Salt Creek PPG/BOP has managed to coincide with pretty solid swells.
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It's flat
That's too bad. At least since Salt Creek PPG/BOP has managed to coincide with pretty solid swells.
And the ensuing carnage. Not great for a SUP event. Not sure the flat water crowd was eager for a replay.
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Yeah, its traditionally been good. Last year there were starboard, Kings and a couple of others but not as many as in years past, sadly.
I do agree that the recreational paddlers will dig the flatness but I hope there's enough to give the usual crazy change ups that happen when people catch a wave and others don't. That's what makes for great surf racing.
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I just giggle when I see carnage. Something is wrong with me.
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It's flat
Flat Saturday. 2-4' forecasted on Sunday. Might be worth a look.
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2-4 is perfect for that race, and some demos. Might have to sneak down.
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There were some nice 1-2 foot waves rolling in this afternoon/evening. The kind you have to paddle hard to catch so might be some good paddle battles during the races.
Not as many vendor tents this year as past years. Don't know how much longer this will last. Not as many entries either. Although the youth division seems bigger than before.
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It's flat
Flat Saturday. 2-4' forecasted on Sunday. Might be worth a look.
Wrong direction....
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.....but hopefully something will sneak in
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flat, flat, flat! Tomorrow may be better . Im guessing there was half the crowd there today as last year .
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Danny Ching just killed everyone else. He could have drank a beer waiting for the anyone to finish behind him.
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Drove down from Ventura today with friends. The last time I was down was for my first race at the Battle of the Paddle in Salt Creek. Wow, what a difference between the 8' waves that day and today!
To answer the original question, the demo zone was very sparse with only Hobie, Sunova and Boardworks represented. We met Tino and took a few Sunova's out and really liked the 8'10 Speed. Was super stable, caught waves easily and was loose on the (albeit small) waves. In the tents outside of the demo zone it seems that Starboard has some surf-SUPs as did Kings and some others, but we didn't ask about demoing though I am sure they would be happy to oblige.
On a different note, I too agree that the event was very sparsely attended. There were only 76 paddlers in the Men's Pro technical and thus they cut out all of the morning rounds and jumped straight to the quarter finals. There also didn't seem to be a large number of Open racers either. Big change from the last time I was out.
Andrew
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Wondering if the more lightly attended event is more of a trend in SUP racing or just this event in particular
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I raced PPG open technical the last two years plus the BOP for the four previous years but chose not to this year because I don't feel I got my money's worth last year. It's hard to justify a $160 entry fee for a 2.4 mile race. IIRC, BOP entry fee was around $85 and it had a better swag bag.
This year I took my race board and surfed the small waves amongst the pros and elite racers before and between races and had way more fun and it was free.
I think a combination if small waves and early clouds may have cut down the spectator attendance.
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Wondering if the more lightly attended event is more of a trend in SUP racing or just this event in particular
Overall it seems to be a trend in racing. Some events haven’t suffered while some didn’t even happen this year. I’m at PPG too and it’s very lightly attended. Barely a vendor village and participant numbers are down. That being said, there’s a handful of new board manufacturers here. DEEP rolled in deep with about 25 Tahitians. 390 paddlers in the distance race this morning betwee pros, junior pros, prone and open. Still a fun event to watch. Danny Ching had a monstrous lead in the distance race but was going to the wrong buoy and his course correction caused him to drop back to about 8th but he then powered back and almost caught Connor and Michael Booth and still finished a very respectable 3rd. Dude is a beast.
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I raced PPG open technical the last two years plus the BOP for the four previous years but chose not to this year because I don't feel I got my money's worth last year. It's hard to justify a $160 entry fee for a 2.4 mile race. IIRC, BOP entry fee was around $85 and it had a better swag bag.
This year I took my race board and surfed the small waves amongst the pros and elite racers before and between races and had way more fun and it was free.
I think a combination if small waves and early clouds may have cut down the spectator attendance.
Sounds like fun! Interestingly two of my racer friends chose not to enter for the exact same reason... Surfed 5 hours this morning with friends and now catching up on the webcast of today's event. Exciting racing! Hard to believe that Mo was out so early.
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The live drone coverage was pretty cool ! Awesome athletes ALL !
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High entry fees has to be a factor. I really wanted to race the Battle of the Bay in San Francisco a couple weeks ago. they had a really nice course that went around Alcatraz. Would have been a great paddle. But $190 is bit much for a recreational race.
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High entry fees has to be a factor. I really wanted to race the Battle of the Bay in San Francisco a couple weeks ago. they had a really nice course that went around Alcatraz. Would have been a great paddle. But $190 is bit much for a recreational race.
$190. is a bargain if they throw in a T-shirt, lunch, 2 beer tickets, and a new CF paddle.
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Here are some photos I took at the event:
https://blueplanetsurf.com/news/pacific-paddle-games-2017-photos/
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Declining attendance is a trend. It happens in any new sport. The standard sport adoption curve is a steep increase followed by a drop to a stable level. The change in SUP racing is more extreme than the general SUP adoption because there was no notion of making it as inclusive as it could be. The early decisions on board length limits reduced the market by half. That's tough to overcome.
A focus on pros by some of the event promoters is even harder to understand. Certainly elite paddlers add interest, but the bread and butter is the recreational racers. PPG carried that to an extreme. I expect they fully realize the error now, but there aren't a lot of second chances in events. If the change in focus is real and consistent then it's possible to build back, but usually, any event that displeases those that attend it will fold before they can build back confidence. That's unfortunate, this could and should be the premier event for SUP racing. I know how much work this is, and it's monumentally unfair for the effort to go to waste because of a single error. But that's how these things work.
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I paid $169 to enter the technical race and they didn't even have the right jersey and shirt size for me. What a joke! Why even ask for your shirt size on the registration form? For that kind of money the least you expect is to get that part right. The schwag bag was pathetic.
I haven't raced in a couple of years but decided to enter this one in support of the event. The stoke and vibe was missing compared to the BOP days. I hope the event continues next year but would not be surprised if this was the last one.
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Yeah a real shame Ang and i have done 2 races in two weeks and have paid over $1000US just to enter which IMO is just crazy!!!
Hopefully bug changes are to come and a different way of thinking.
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I think it’s too early to tell but any sport that just all of a sudden explodes is going to eventually have a decline period, and I think we all knew this was going to happen eventually. Hopefully SUP won’t go the way or rollerblading but who knows? While it seems the # of SUP events and participation/attendance at the still existing events are down, I don’t seen any shrinking in the # of recreational paddlers. That still seems to be growing.
Also it’s not just races; several local contests in my area which used to include a SUP division(s) no longer have them.
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SUP racing is a pretty boring thing to watch live and that's one of the problems. You only see the racers when they start and when they finish and can't tell who's in the lead without binoculars or listening to the announcer. The BOP was good because they had to run thru the chicane on every lap and you could actually see the racers.
Another problem with the PPG is that everyone use to be excited about being in the open race. Now the open seems more like an after thought and a way for the games to make money. Not sure how to remedy that, but they should try to to put more fun back into the open races. The only ones that are going to go to an event are those that participate in the sport and the sponsors need to find a way to attract them by doing something special.
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I enjoyed watching this online and the commentary was pretty good. Lots of drama to keep things interesting.
Right when it appears Booth had pretty much taken over (at least the distance events), Conor beats him back to back.
Nothing new with Annabel Anderson. So far ahead of the next best racer when she is on. Only injury and mental mistakes beat her right now.
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I'd be happy if SUP went the way of longboarding; no contests, mostly boutique shops making high quality gear locally, very few contests, sponsorship for filming and product use primarily. I'm fine that my sport is "already" in decline, it doesn't affect my enjoyment at all.
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I got into sup racing for the 5K, 10K, or 20K personal grind, get healthy and push myself mindset. I used to run 10K's but my knees can't take it anymore. SUP racing opened that door to improving my health again. The pro only event approach is just ruining sup racing and probably the sport. What if the LA or Boston Marathons decided to make the entry fee's $10K, so that pretty much only the Nike or other sponsored pros could run it? The marathons would be no more.
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I'm still working my way through the videos of the racing, but at one point they mentioned over a million viewers watching on-line. That's a huge number isn't it? I assume that doesn't even count me because I wasn't watching live.
Also, does anyone know why Kai Lenny wasn't racing?
OK, final thought: the top guys in the "Open" division are pretty much pros. I'm not a fan of guys (and girls) who belong in the Elite division poaching trophies from the amateurs.
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I got into sup racing for the 5K, 10K, or 20K personal grind, get healthy and push myself mindset. I used to run 10K's but my knees can't take it anymore. SUP racing opened that door to improving my health again. The pro only event approach is just ruining sup racing and probably the sport. What if the LA or Boston Marathons decided to make the entry fee's $10K, so that pretty much only the Nike or other sponsored pros could run it? The marathons would be no more.
That's interesting thinking of standup compared to running. I ran lots of races long ago. There was a national Diet Pepsi 10K race series in the 70s that featured Frank Shorter running in each race nationwide. My friend and I entered in Seattle in high school and ran our butts off the first quarter mile or so so we could run with him, then we died off and got separated from him and from each other. Then I saw Shorter up ahead of me with a few hundred yards left going slow (he'd strained a muscle so was jogging in) so I sprinted and passed him, and so did my friend--we both realized if we could catch him, we could tell everyone for the rest of our lives that we beat Frank Shorter in a 10K (I don't always mention the pulled muscle).
Other than that, I can't recall any running race I ever did where there was a non-local star runner competing, or prize money. Now it's more common, such as with the big marathons, but it's still a tiny percentage of running races that include stars. And some, like the Portland Marathon, advertise that they DON'T offer prize money, or invite stars, because they want the focus to be on the average runner.
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At least from watching online, the Carolina Cup seems to be as big as ever? I do hope that the PPG gets its mojo back but it is vastly different from the BoP days or even last year from what I hear? From a spectators perspective, we carpooled down and my whole car was disappointed that we left at 5:45am to get there only to find out that the morning races were cancelled and there was only 3 vendors at the demo area. My two friends said they wouldn't go down again.
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When the biggest star in the sport, Kai Lenny, skips the two biggest SUP races (M2O & PPG) for a big wave contest and a movie premiere, that pretty much says a lot. Maybe he promotes SUP from that angle. Who knows?
Looks like Kai is becoming a WSL star.
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When the biggest star in the sport, Kai Lenny, skips the two biggest SUP races (M2O & PPG) for a big wave contest and a movie premiere, that pretty much says a lot. Maybe he promotes SUP from that angle. Who knows?
Looks like Kai is becoming a WSL star.
It says where the real money is, and while Kai may be the biggest name, it's been quite awhile since he was consistently winning the big races. If you're not winning the major races, but can make a lot more money by devoting more time to the aspects of being a waterman that he really loves i.e. big wave surfing, which also equates to making bank with sponsors, then that makes a lot more sense. Stand up racing is not lucrative and there is only a few that actually make a living doing it, and it's largely sponsorship revenue that makes it possible.
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I don't know....have pretty mixed emotions about this. What can be more pure than a run between athletes that have very similar board and paddles? It's pretty pure. I really can't believe there is that much difference between this board and that board and this paddle and that paddle. It comes down to the individual. It's heart and guts (along with training and experience). Maybe similar to boxing? (by the way, I hate boxing, but I love SUP).
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Kai is probably making five or ten times the money that the racers winning purses make. Consider the recent thread on social marketing. SUP racers are effective for marketing to the miniscule SUP racing market. Kai, as a waterman, is effective for marketing to anyone who desires or admires his lifestyle--probably a market measured in the hundreds of millions. I don't know that he's doing an optimal job with social media, but he seems to be checking some of the boxes.
A racer in a single sport, pounding out training, traveling to every race that has a reasonable purse, making his sponsors happy with wins, isn't likely to have the time to optimize their marketing potential even if they could figure out how to broaden their appeal enough to make it worthwhile.
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I'm still working my way through the videos of the racing, but at one point they mentioned over a million viewers watching on-line. That's a huge number isn't it? I assume that doesn't even count me because I wasn't watching live.
Not sure where the 1 million viewers come from - SUPthemag have about 7-800likes on their webcast and while watching it said 5-700 where watching with me.....Let's just face it - SUP racing is not the greatest spectator sport. It pains me because I love the sport and the workout it gives me but I do understand that unless you're really into the sport it doesn't have much spectator appeal.
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PDX, I think Sup racing is more comparable to speed walking in terms of spectator interest.
I remember watching the Boston Marathon when I was a little kid. People lined the streets for the entire 28 miles. I haven't watched one since, but I understand the crown is many times bigger.
The biggest crowd I ever saw at a SUP race was the first BOP.
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I just watched the online coverage. It's great to have such great coverage. Maybe there are less people on the beach but for those too far to go down to the beach we now see something.
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Danny Ching just killed everyone else. He could have drank a beer waiting for the anyone to finish behind him.
Which board was Danny Ching using?
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Does anybody have a link for watching? All I can find on youtube is a few highlight clips...
- Thanks, Kevin
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Danny Ching just killed everyone else. He could have drank a beer waiting for the anyone to finish behind him.
Which board was Danny Ching using?
It looks more like the LTD, but with the nose volume thinned out.
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Another problem with the PPG is that everyone use to be excited about being in the open race. Now the open seems more like an after thought and a way for the games to make money. Not sure how to remedy that, but they should try to to put more fun back into the open races. The only ones that are going to go to an event are those that participate in the sport and the sponsors need to find a way to attract them by doing something special.
I feel that having both an open technical and an open distance race hinders entry numbers. If you race both it's easier to justify the entrance fees since they are discounted but if you can't do both the single entry fee seems hard to swallow. With each race being on a different day it excludes participants who aren't able to commit both Saturday and Sunday to racing. Maybe a single recreational race with lower entry fees would increase participation. As I recall from Econ 101 there should be a sweet spot on the graph where price and volume meet.
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It says where the real money is, and while Kai may be the biggest name, it's been quite awhile since he was consistently winning the big races. If you're not winning the major races, but can make a lot more money by devoting more time to the aspects of being a waterman that he really loves i.e. big wave surfing, which also equates to making bank with sponsors, then that makes a lot more sense. Stand up racing is not lucrative and there is only a few that actually make a living doing it, and it's largely sponsorship revenue that makes it possible.
As I mentioned before on a separate thread, I think it’s kind of a fluke that SUP racing has even gotten as big as it has (and as fast as it has) considering that it’s the new kid on the block in the paddle sports world and that its roots are nothing more than a goofing around novel way to surf. I think if the industry didn’t push so hard to make it mainstream it maybe would have settled in along with other types of paddle racing.
That being said, I truly hope the best for events like the PPG and all the other remaining events. I always enjoy watching them but completely understand how they would have little to no appeal for a large scale mainstream audience. My favorite event is still the Hano Hano (every January) in Mission Bay. Purely aimed at participants and friends and family of the participants. And maybe curious onlookers.
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It says where the real money is, and while Kai may be the biggest name, it's been quite awhile since he was consistently winning the big races. If you're not winning the major races, but can make a lot more money by devoting more time to the aspects of being a waterman that he really loves i.e. big wave surfing, which also equates to making bank with sponsors, then that makes a lot more sense. Stand up racing is not lucrative and there is only a few that actually make a living doing it, and it's largely sponsorship revenue that makes it possible.
As I mentioned before on a separate thread, I think it’s kind of a fluke that SUP racing has even gotten as big as it has (and as fast as it has) considering that it’s the new kid on the block in the paddle sports world and that its roots are nothing more than a goofing around novel way to surf. I think if the industry didn’t push so hard to make it mainstream it maybe would have settled in along with other types of paddle racing.
That being said, I truly hope the best for events like the PPG and all the other remaining events. I always enjoy watching them but completely understand how they would have little to no appeal for a large scale mainstream audience. My favorite event is still the Hano Hano (every January) in Mission Bay. Purely aimed at participants and friends and family of the participants. And maybe curious onlookers.
Paddlebigbear (formally the Big Bear Paddlefest) is trying to survive as well. It's a great event that has been trying to find the magic formula for success. Big Bear Lake, Ca. is such a great get away from LA. The setting is scenic, and the lake is usually warm. The racing and event is very laid back. Their race includes Canoes, Kayaks, Skis, and SUP. I think with the diminishing entrants they need to make sure they hold it on a weekend with no other LA area competing events. Last year it was on the same day as the Santa Monica ocean festival.
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PDX, I think Sup racing is more comparable to speed walking in terms of spectator interest.
I remember watching the Boston Marathon when I was a little kid. People lined the streets for the entire 28 miles. I haven't watched one since, but I understand the crown is many times bigger.
The biggest crowd I ever saw at a SUP race was the first BOP.
Yes, and running isn't that great itself for most people. The Boston Marathon may be different, but I think a lot of marathon spectators wouldn't be there if they had to do more than walk out onto the sidewalk in front of their houses.
One thing about watching a marathon that is nice is you're so close to the contestants you can see their expressions and even talk to them. It wouldn't be the same being even a block away, and that's way closer than you are to standup racers at most courses, and that's at the times you can still see them. One of the things that I like about the Naish Hood River races for spectating is that the course comes in almost to land. You can do your open race, then sit or wade at the beach and see the elites.
Here's a couple photos from a couple years ago. The Kai photo is slightly zoomed, but the Danny Ching one accurately shows how you experience it, and maybe is even a slightly wide-angle view. The racers rounded this buoy several times, so every few minutes, and the announcer is right there naming every racer, all creating a much better than typical spectator experience.
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Watched the finishes and that was plenty enough. Maybe a total of 5-10 minutes max. Without big wave carnage was pretty boring. Just wanted to see how much AA dominated and if Conner still can hold off his peers. When the play by play is "this is starting to get exciting" -> I was thinking ... really?!? :o
http://ppg.supthemag.com/live/
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I was there all weekend. I participated in the last 2 BOP’s and the first 2 PPG’s. There’s some valid points in this thread. As someone who is more interested in the race scene than most, I was pretty bored at various times during the weekend. I think lack of waves contributed to this since during the downtime, you could just go surf. The only “exciting” times was once they rounded the final buoy and made their way to the beach. The hammer buoy didn’t have it’s usual excitement due to it being flat.
One thing I would like to see is have them bring back the running around the chicane during each lap. That keeps the action closer to the beach and gives you more waves to watch them surf and also watch their beach starts, which are very impressive.
I hope it continues but I’m fearful it’s going to suffer the same fate as the BOP. I’ll admit, I didn’t race much this past year and I was on the fence about doing it once I got out there. There wasn’t enough incentive given the conditions, the entry fee, etc. I’m glad there are new racers still participating and overall everyone was still stoked though. The webcast is very impressive and I disagree with the comment about Kalama and Parker being bad on the mic. They work well together and Chris knows the race circuit and racers (specifically the international ones) better than anyone. And Kalama is someone I could listen to talk about anything. I really enjoyed hearing them.
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Chris and Kalama did a great job. But the race and many races need some exciting variations such as running on the beach, multiple beach starts, super laps etc to make the race more exciting. Team relay races are always fun too. Unfortunately the trend of races being less popular is something we observe in Spain too. Only elite racers are attending all races and many casual paddlers gave up on races for various reasons.
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Here's a four year old article from Steve West. The two comments below the article are from me so now all y'allz will see my real name and face.
http://www.supracer.com/a-cautionary-tale/
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Here's a four year old article from Steve West. The two comments below the article are from me so now all y'allz will see my real name and face.
http://www.supracer.com/a-cautionary-tale/
Sorry but it is impossible to read a text written by Steve West. His sentences are one paragraph long ;D I have his book, great information in it but also perfect tool make fall asleep.
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I read Steve West article 3 times, and don't really get it.
- windsurfing declined long before 2013, but I doubt it's declining since 2010.
- windsurfing is still on, with lots of relatively new brands, making better equipment than ever, especially better than old big brands used to sell
- how can Steve West talk about windsurfing decline without mentioning kiteboarding and other outdoor sports?
- you can't talk about business without talking about the economic situation.
I personally buy a board if it looks like fun to ride, I have enough cash and time for it. I don't care if it's an Olympic sport or not, if its hype or not, neither do I need to define its essence (by the way is windsurfing more surfing or more sailing?)
I'd like to read something about evolution of SUP compared to mountain biking. I guess they have more in common.
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I think Steve West’s point of why windsurfing declined (regardless of when the decline started) is something that can happen to SUP. I often don’t agree with him but I think he’s pretty spot on as to how the windsurfing industry lost focus on the average weekend sailor and instead concentrated on extreme high performance.
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I read Steve West article 3 times, and don't really get it.
- windsurfing declined...
My reply was unclear!
I don't deny there were a severe decline of windsurfing,
I just wanted to say that before to look for similarities between windsurfing and SUPing, we need to know more about "the decline of windsurfing ", we need data and facts!
I searched online, found few messages like "where are all the windsurfers gone?", few articles , mostly about windsurfing coming back (like in 2001 with formula boards...) but very few datas, especially at a world scale.
I found that Kiteboarding went from few 100s in 1998 to an estimation of 1.5 million riders ww in 2012, 180 000 kites sold in 2011 (Isaf),
https://uclue.com/?xq=7627, here I learned there were 8 million windsurfers in the world in 2009, same number of windsurfers in US in 2008 and 2013: 1,3 million.
Wikipedia : The Outdoor Foundation's 2015 Special Report into Paddlesports found that 2.8 Million (or 0.9%) of Americans participated in standup paddlboarding in 2014.
Now we should talk about pro riders, about sponsors like P Stuyvesant @PWA... in the old days.
We could also talk about the 1300 windsurfers racing at the Défi wind in south of France... and the Defi wind Mauritius...
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I think he’s pretty spot on as to how the windsurfing industry lost focus on the average sailors.
It was in the late 80s/90s when the trend was sinkers/ needle nose- no nose boards. Since that area everybody will tell you equipment is much easier to use, strong and can be used in wide range of conditions.
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I started windsurfing in the early 80's. There were probably 20 dedicated windsurfing shops along the SoCal coast. I built one of them for a friend of mine who managed one in Newport Beach and one in Long Beach (which I built out). I swapped some of the work for a board and rigging. I had an 11' gun by Rainbow. Roto-moulded indestructible low rocker bullet and a 7.2 battened sail. They were just coming out with Camber induced and RAF sails and out of my price range. All the harbors and bay were flooded with people windsurfing, just like SUP. There were rental places, and certified instructors at the hotels. It was booming. The problem with SoCal is lack of real wind.
I spent my weekends driving to Mex or San Pedro just to get so decent wind. Kiting hadn't even been invented back then. I grew out of my beginner equipment, and started demo'ng the shorter boards, and RAF sails. The equipment was getting crazy expensive for a guy in my early 20's. My roommates had Hobie Cats and I started racing with them. It was cheaper and I didn't have to chase the wind... as much ::)
Only the serious and good windsurfers stuck with it. Now you'll never see a single windsurfer in the harbor or ocean in SoCal. Still a handful on some lakes and northern coast, but nothing like the old days.
Board = $1,000.
C.F. mast = $1,200.
Adjustable boom = $250.
Sails = $700. to $800 a piece ( and you needed at least 3), so over $2,000.
Plus Harness and accessories brings you to about $ 5,000 for a minimal rig.
Windsurfing is an expensive water sport. Did I mention chasing wind everywhere...
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^yep
Go to any spot with solid wind and you see a sea of windsurfers. Guys that live in spots like that and windsurf a several times a week for most of the year tend to have just one board and sail, and don't bother going out when it isn't perfect.
It's great to see the kids at spots like that. When you see what they do and how keen they are, you don't call windsurfing dead. You just realize you live in the wrong place.
BTW foiling may bring back windsurfing to light wind spots. Kite foiling is soooo fast but I think windsurfing is better for sports where the wind can die. It might still be a drag to get in but at least you aren't swimming it in.
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I bought a complete windsurfing equipment (1 Fanatic skate 6 years old/1sail,...) for 900$, second hand. The cheapest 14' SUP I found here (online) is a focus bluefin demo board from 2016 at 2300$. So prices depend on your location.