Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Downwind and Racing => Topic started by: ukgm on September 13, 2017, 07:40:22 AM
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So anyway, I decided to step back from being a sponsored rider for next year. It was my call and my last sponsor (Naish) had been absolutely fantastic and I had been well supported over the last 2 years. I'd also received a couple of very generous team offers for 2018 but, for a variety of reasons, I decided that I needed more flexibility in what I was doing next year as far as SUP went. As a result (and I hope you're watching this Eagle), after trying loads of racing boards I opted for.............
..............a secondhand 2017 full carbon Starboard Allstar in a 24.5 width. It's going to be receiving a full Allison fin install shortly too.
I tried a 23 but (at my size) it didn't have the volume and after I started smashing out PB's on a loaner board of this model, I realised very quickly that with the races I wanted to do, it was a good fit for me and allowed me to get down to a decent width whilst still cranking out full power. I've been really impressed with the design. I'm very excited about trying the Allison system in particular too and I'll be doing some testing of that with some hardcore science as soon as I get the board back from its install. For me now, its about finding racing innovation wherever I can find it !
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What do you weigh, UK?
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Looking forward to flat water testing of the Allison four fins system. Keep us posted.
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What do you weigh, UK?
I'm currently in shape for cycling so I dropped from my typical 95kg down to 88.5kg.
(I found the 23 struggled a bit at the tail volume so I was having to come far forward to compensate).
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I'm shocked ukgm ;) I was very surprised by that board my self in contrast to previous
AS models. Would be very interesting to see your results with the 4 fins, don't hesitate to
ask for pointers.
Keep us posted.
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As a result (and I hope you're watching this Eagle), after trying loads of racing boards I opted for.............
..............a secondhand 2017 full carbon Starboard Allstar in a 24.5 width. It's going to be receiving a full Allison fin install shortly too.
I tried a 23 but (at my size) it didn't have the volume and after I started smashing out PB's on a loaner board of this model, I realised very quickly that with the races I wanted to do, it was a good fit for me and allowed me to get down to a decent width whilst still cranking out full power. I've been really impressed with the design. I'm very excited about trying the Allison system in particular too and I'll be doing some testing of that with some hardcore science as soon as I get the board back from its install. For me now, its about finding racing innovation wherever I can find it !
Cheers and congrats on your new aquisition! Finally convinced you to come over to the dark mysterious side. ;)
That board is the right width for you. Even tho I constantly make fun of the fat cutting boof -> it is not really fat at waterline compared to most other AW designs. It is actually quite svelte. That design is actually a lot faster than many know or realize until they test it themselves at speed. It is not draggy feeling compared to other designs. Once you get that initial tippy tip feeling under control -> you are gold and can motor on flat water to chop to small DW. So very smart choice indeed. Times do not lie.
Would expect the Allison fin options to keep you pretty busy testing speed vs stability for the next while. So let us know what is working best for you.
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As a result (and I hope you're watching this Eagle), after trying loads of racing boards I opted for.............
..............a secondhand 2017 full carbon Starboard Allstar in a 24.5 width. It's going to be receiving a full Allison fin install shortly too.
I tried a 23 but (at my size) it didn't have the volume and after I started smashing out PB's on a loaner board of this model, I realised very quickly that with the races I wanted to do, it was a good fit for me and allowed me to get down to a decent width whilst still cranking out full power. I've been really impressed with the design. I'm very excited about trying the Allison system in particular too and I'll be doing some testing of that with some hardcore science as soon as I get the board back from its install. For me now, its about finding racing innovation wherever I can find it !
Cheers and congrats on your new aquisition! Finally convinced you to come over to the dark mysterious side. ;)
That board is the right width for you. Even tho I constantly make fun of the fat cutting boof -> it is not really fat at waterline compared to most other AW designs. It is actually quite svelte. That design is actually a lot faster than many know or realize until they test it themselves at speed. It is not draggy feeling compared to other designs. Once you get that initial tippy tip feeling under control -> you are gold and can motor on flat water to chop to small DW. So very smart choice indeed. Times do not lie.
Would expect the Allison fin options to keep you pretty busy testing speed vs stability for the next while. So let us know what is working best for you.
Oddly I didn't get that tippy initial feeling I was bracing myself for. I just got on it and went. Compared to my maliko it seems to be holding around 5% faster than my 2016 Naish Maliko for the same effort. That's not fair on the Naish as it was very very good at what it was actually designed to do. I originally was going to go for the Allison system to help with stability but I don't need to now. I'm actually doing it to see if I can coax more speed and efficiency out of this board and to see if the tail flow really does work against would be drafters. All of this will help my racing choices next year.
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Oddly I didn't get that tippy initial feeling I was bracing myself for. I just got on it and went. Compared to my maliko it seems to be holding around 5% faster than my 2016 Naish Maliko for the same effort.
Good job. Your balance is not as crappy as you say then. Haha.
Many have complained bitterly in the past about tippy tip even paddling a 24.5 width. If not a problem on your new All Star -> then you are gold.
A 5% jump is huge. About similar to my speed improvement over my Dominator when I tested right after getting my 23. Some peeps had a hard time believing this but numbers do not lie.
Talked to a racer who has paddled almost all the new race boards out there and he told me on the weekend that a small single fin was fastest for him after testing out quads. He also needs no help in the stability department. As this year he has been racing on a 23 Sprint. He is always looking for that little extra bit of speed just like you.
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At approx 90kg it's no surprise that you needed to trim forward on the 23" Allstar.
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Oddly I didn't get that tippy initial feeling I was bracing myself for. I just got on it and went. Compared to my maliko it seems to be holding around 5% faster than my 2016 Naish Maliko for the same effort.
A 5% jump is huge. About similar to my speed improvement over my Dominator when I tested right after getting my 23. Some peeps had a hard time believing this but numbers do not lie.
Talked to a racer who has paddled almost all the new race boards out there and he told me on the weekend that a small single fin was fastest for him after testing out quads. He also needs no help in the stability department. As this year he has been racing on a 23 Sprint. He is always looking for that little extra bit of speed just like you.
I've found that since I'm a larger paddler, going to small a fin hurts my efficiency and stroke index. As a result, my data continues to show for example that my larger Black Project Maliko is still the best fin I've used to date and that the smaller Tiger is fractionally slower (but well within the margin of error). Mind you, the thing of interest to me is to test the quads first and then to get with trialling the fence idea that Ponobill has been advocating. I think that could be a good progression to get the drag down (whilst maintaining the tracking through use of a ventral).
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At approx 90kg it's no surprise that you needed to trim forward on the 23" Allstar.
Yep, it was just a step too far. The 2018 sprint or Allstar 23.5 looked like borderline considerations for next year though.
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I have the 2017 Allstar/24.5 with 93kg/193cm and go with the original fin. In normal case, I feel well and do not go swimming. If it gets too heavy, it can happen that I'm slower and swim.
And I'm not a fast paddler.
So for you it will be a easy game ;-)
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Going blue this year, sounds like it was a good choice!
I tried some all stars at bray lake recently, found them a bit tippy for me but I'm not quite at your level :-) Haven't managed to try the maliko yet!
What races are on your list for next year? I really want to get back into it and be a bit more competitive if I can lol
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Going blue this year, sounds like it was a good choice!
I tried some all stars at bray lake recently, found them a bit tippy for me but I'm not quite at your level :-) Haven't managed to try the maliko yet!
What races are on your list for next year? I really want to get back into it and be a bit more competitive if I can lol
If you want a really stable platform and a board that can handle a bit of mess I can honestly say the maliko was the most stable 26 inch wide board I'd ever used. I dropped the fin size down in the end to get more speed out of it as stability was never an issue.
I'm having to wrap my SUP season around my bike races and some quadrathlon so I'll likely race through the winter (possibly doing the odd race up where you are) and then I'll aim for a top result at Head of the Dart in April. Thats the biggest event in the UK and is a defacto national distance champs in my view as everyone is there. After that I'll still be paddling but my race season emphasis will shift to my other sports until August.
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Oddly I didn't get that tippy initial feeling I was bracing myself for. I just got on it and went. Compared to my maliko it seems to be holding around 5% faster than my 2016 Naish Maliko for the same effort.
Good job. Your balance is not as crappy as you say then. Haha.
I likely don't paddle in as wavy conditions as you do. Most of my paddling is done on rivers and large chop estuaries. The board was surprisingly good at that but then I'm another year down the line in terms of development so I think I'm still a work in progress on the earlier slope of the learning curve.
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I think there is an optimal distance between the paddler and the fins, given the limitations of a 14' board. If you are finding a slightly larger fin to be faster despite a greater drag from the fin, then there are two likely elements at play: Less rail drag from paddle torque turning the board in relation to the direction of travel, and more conversion of off-center paddle force to forward thrust (the magic force most fin makers call projection). Since I suspect you have a good stroke with a vertical paddle shaft and the blade as much under the rail as feasible, it's probably mostly the former. With a complex (and necessarily draggy) bottom like the Allstar your fin experiments are going to be hard to optimize. The center channel will slow some of the water moving through it and act like a fin. You need to take advantage of that and not compromise it.
A ventral fin forward should work well. I'd keep it small, and I have no idea where you should put it, other than making sure it's behind the end of whatever nose rocker there is. Cover the open parts of the fin slot with aluminum tape--turbulence leading into the channel won't help tracking. Larry has a recommendation, but I don't think he's done his experiments with whacky board bottoms. I haven't either--the bottom on my Blackfish test mule is flat.
The fence should be interesting. I'd try the twin fins just outside the channel on the flat between channels, and the fence seems to work best if it's slid far enough back to block interference between the fins. On my blackfish that means the fence starts at about the center of the twins and extends a few inches beyond the ends. The fence needs to be rigid. I made one that extended past the end of the fin box but the thin aluminum was flexing like a fish tail. I could feel it wobble and it was slow. That's the most convincing "evidence" I have that the benefit of the fence is blocking fin-to-fin interference.
Good luck with this.
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A ventral fin forward should work well. I'd keep it small, and I have no idea where you should put it, other than making sure it's behind the end of whatever nose rocker there is. Cover the open parts of the fin slot with aluminum tape--turbulence leading into the channel won't help tracking.
Bill, do you think that the turbulence could make any difference on a relatively flat bottom?
The Whiplash has only a very mild concave not a channel like the Blackfish.
I am awaiting for Larry to send me a Stealth kick to test against the fence with twins. The only thing I can tell so far is that with the Whiplash a 6" Stinger kick measured slower. For now I go ventral plus 6" Stinger or 7" Stinger depending on conditions.
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I think there is an optimal distance between the paddler and the fins, given the limitations of a 14' board. If you are finding a slightly larger fin to be faster despite a greater drag from the fin, then there are two likely elements at play: Less rail drag from paddle torque turning the board in relation to the direction of travel, and more conversion of off-center paddle force to forward thrust (the magic force most fin makers call projection). Since I suspect you have a good stroke with a vertical paddle shaft and the blade as much under the rail as feasible, it's probably mostly the former. With a complex (and necessarily draggy) bottom like the Allstar your fin experiments are going to be hard to optimize. The center channel will slow some of the water moving through it and act like a fin. You need to take advantage of that and not compromise it.
A ventral fin forward should work well. I'd keep it small, and I have no idea where you should put it, other than making sure it's behind the end of whatever nose rocker there is. Cover the open parts of the fin slot with aluminum tape--turbulence leading into the channel won't help tracking. Larry has a recommendation, but I don't think he's done his experiments with whacky board bottoms. I haven't either--the bottom on my Blackfish test mule is flat.
The fence should be interesting. I'd try the twin fins just outside the channel on the flat between channels, and the fence seems to work best if it's slid far enough back to block interference between the fins. On my blackfish that means the fence starts at about the center of the twins and extends a few inches beyond the ends. The fence needs to be rigid. I made one that extended past the end of the fin box but the thin aluminum was flexing like a fish tail. I could feel it wobble and it was slow. That's the most convincing "evidence" I have that the benefit of the fence is blocking fin-to-fin interference.
Good luck with this.
Thanks for this information. Lots to process here. Larry did fit the system to a 2015 Allstar of a similiar width and we plan to use his standard formula's on initial placement. My initial thoughts on the fence was to use a cut down large fin (a JB runner maybe) but it sounds like it would need to be much longer than that to block the interference. I may have to hit the faculty workshops to knock something up........
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My fastest fence on the Blackfish, which is now resting on the bottom of Canyon Lake. was a blade of carbon about 5" long and an inch high. Made it from four layers of 6oz carbon laid up on a sheet of glass, with poly film on both sides, and then a second sheet pressed on top. Probably less than .030". Sandwiched it in some thin plywood and added a cross pin, but no screw. I had it jammed in pretty tight, but it went away. Certainly something you could make at home--I made mine in Casey Trout's garage.
Luc--Turbulence is generally worth minimizing, but if the deep channels work the way I think they do, then it's more important than it is on a flatter bottom. Easier to describe if we view the board as stationary and the water moving under it. I think the water in the channel will move a little slower than the general flow and will shear away from the general flow and create a laminar layer. If it does, then any turbulence at the channel inlet will disrupt that. This idea might all just be a relic of all those drugs in the 60's, but if it's remotely so, then it would help reduce skin friction when the board is moving fast enough, and would also develop a little directional stability since the mass of the water would need to be displaced to move the tail sideways.
The only "proof" I have of the concept is the tunnel board I built from the remains of a ruined 18' Speedboard. It glides amazingly well, and hasd remarkable directional stability without fins. So remarkable that it won't turn at all, no matter how hard I try.
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Luc--Turbulence is generally worth minimizing, but if the deep channels work the way I think they do, then it's more important than it is on a flatter bottom. Easier to describe if we view the board as stationary and the water moving under it. I think the water in the channel will move a little slower than the general flow and will shear away from the general flow and create a laminar layer. If it does, then any turbulence at the channel inlet will disrupt that. This idea might all just be a relic of all those drugs in the 60's, but if it's remotely so, then it would help reduce skin friction when the board is moving fast enough, and would also develop a little directional stability since the mass of the water would need to be displaced to move the tail sideways.
The only "proof" I have of the concept is the tunnel board I built from the remains of a ruined 18' Speedboard. It glides amazingly well, and hasd remarkable directional stability without fins. So remarkable that it won't turn at all, no matter how hard I try.
Thanks Bill. Makes sense to me even if I do not master the physics behind the concept. Curiously I find the Whiplash handling more sensitive than the Blackfish to fin setup.
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Going blue this year, sounds like it was a good choice!
I tried some all stars at bray lake recently, found them a bit tippy for me but I'm not quite at your level :-) Haven't managed to try the maliko yet!
What races are on your list for next year? I really want to get back into it and be a bit more competitive if I can lol
If you want a really stable platform and a board that can handle a bit of mess I can honestly say the maliko was the most stable 26 inch wide board I'd ever used. I dropped the fin size down in the end to get more speed out of it as stability was never an issue.
I'm having to wrap my SUP season around my bike races and some quadrathlon so I'll likely race through the winter (possibly doing the odd race up where you are) and then I'll aim for a top result at Head of the Dart in April. Thats the biggest event in the UK and is a defacto national distance champs in my view as everyone is there. After that I'll still be paddling but my race season emphasis will shift to my other sports until August.
Cheers for advice, def need to demo one somewhere. Don't think Alex has any more demo days planned on website. I really want a hard board but keep talking myself in/out of it as I'm not sure I'd race in the 14ft class as I'd get crushed lol I think I'd choose to race the N1SCO not that I'm in the lead pack there either :-)
Wow quite a busy year for you then?! The Head of the Dart is on my list as ones I want to do eventually along with the round Hayling Island one. I think I might try to do the UK SUP races as well this year in the N1SCO fleet
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I likely don't paddle in as wavy conditions as you do. Most of my paddling is done on rivers and large chop estuaries. The board was surprisingly good at that but then I'm another year down the line in terms of development so I think I'm still a work in progress on the earlier slope of the learning curve.
Yeah the ocean conditions here are not consistent for more than 20 min or so. It is ever changing. But can say the 24.5 is a very good width for stability if racing and for longer distances.
Was just out yesterday for my 5 mile loop and got back fine -> but was going pretty slow using the 23. The side chop and rolling slop do take a toll on speed for sure. Interestingly to me the 23 is not drag limited but engine limited. I do not feel much drag and the more power that is put down the faster it goes. Not so for wider boards for me.
The best part of the 24.5 is you can go full out and not worry much about falling in. It does have quite a big sweet zone. But was somewhat surprised you could paddle that 23 at any decent speed -> as your weight is not at all optimal for that board. At 90 or so kgs that board must have been sitting pretty draggy low. Good on you nonetheless for giving it a go. At least now you have a good idea what the limits are on a narrower All Star.
Would suspect you should be ok on the Sprint 25 right now and maybe All Star 23.5 if they both end up having enough float for you. Apparently Larry Cain used a Sprint 23 for Chattajack.
http://www.supracer.com/2016-chattajack-stand-up-paddleboard-race-results/
https://youtu.be/2_sqXykofuI
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Going blue this year, sounds like it was a good choice!
I tried some all stars at bray lake recently, found them a bit tippy for me but I'm not quite at your level :-) Haven't managed to try the maliko yet!
What races are on your list for next year? I really want to get back into it and be a bit more competitive if I can lol
If you want a really stable platform and a board that can handle a bit of mess I can honestly say the maliko was the most stable 26 inch wide board I'd ever used. I dropped the fin size down in the end to get more speed out of it as stability was never an issue.
I'm having to wrap my SUP season around my bike races and some quadrathlon so I'll likely race through the winter (possibly doing the odd race up where you are) and then I'll aim for a top result at Head of the Dart in April. Thats the biggest event in the UK and is a defacto national distance champs in my view as everyone is there. After that I'll still be paddling but my race season emphasis will shift to my other sports until August.
Cheers for advice, def need to demo one somewhere. Don't think Alex has any more demo days planned on website. I really want a hard board but keep talking myself in/out of it as I'm not sure I'd race in the 14ft class as I'd get crushed lol I think I'd choose to race the N1SCO not that I'm in the lead pack there either :-)
Wow quite a busy year for you then?! The Head of the Dart is on my list as ones I want to do eventually along with the round Hayling Island one. I think I might try to do the UK SUP races as well this year in the N1SCO fleet
Come and race at Brays winter series. It's a great race series with a broad range of paddler ability and would let you try tactics and build confidence. Plenty of hard boards to try. Nisco is good but it's a very different style of racing to hardboard stuff.
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Going blue this year, sounds like it was a good choice!
I tried some all stars at bray lake recently, found them a bit tippy for me but I'm not quite at your level :-) Haven't managed to try the maliko yet!
What races are on your list for next year? I really want to get back into it and be a bit more competitive if I can lol
If you want a really stable platform and a board that can handle a bit of mess I can honestly say the maliko was the most stable 26 inch wide board I'd ever used. I dropped the fin size down in the end to get more speed out of it as stability was never an issue.
I'm having to wrap my SUP season around my bike races and some quadrathlon so I'll likely race through the winter (possibly doing the odd race up where you are) and then I'll aim for a top result at Head of the Dart in April. Thats the biggest event in the UK and is a defacto national distance champs in my view as everyone is there. After that I'll still be paddling but my race season emphasis will shift to my other sports until August.
Cheers for advice, def need to demo one somewhere. Don't think Alex has any more demo days planned on website. I really want a hard board but keep talking myself in/out of it as I'm not sure I'd race in the 14ft class as I'd get crushed lol I think I'd choose to race the N1SCO not that I'm in the lead pack there either :-)
Wow quite a busy year for you then?! The Head of the Dart is on my list as ones I want to do eventually along with the round Hayling Island one. I think I might try to do the UK SUP races as well this year in the N1SCO fleet
Come and race at Brays winter series. It's a great race series with a broad range of paddler ability and would let you try tactics and build confidence. Plenty of hard boards to try. Nisco is good but it's a very different style of racing to hardboard stuff.
I'm tempted... I'll look into the details and dates.
Tactics... what are those? I just paddle my butt off and come last lol
Do you think they'd let me race on one of their hire boards?
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Going blue this year, sounds like it was a good choice!
I tried some all stars at bray lake recently, found them a bit tippy for me but I'm not quite at your level :-) Haven't managed to try the maliko yet!
What races are on your list for next year? I really want to get back into it and be a bit more competitive if I can lol
If you want a really stable platform and a board that can handle a bit of mess I can honestly say the maliko was the most stable 26 inch wide board I'd ever used. I dropped the fin size down in the end to get more speed out of it as stability was never an issue.
I'm having to wrap my SUP season around my bike races and some quadrathlon so I'll likely race through the winter (possibly doing the odd race up where you are) and then I'll aim for a top result at Head of the Dart in April. Thats the biggest event in the UK and is a defacto national distance champs in my view as everyone is there. After that I'll still be paddling but my race season emphasis will shift to my other sports until August.
Cheers for advice, def need to demo one somewhere. Don't think Alex has any more demo days planned on website. I really want a hard board but keep talking myself in/out of it as I'm not sure I'd race in the 14ft class as I'd get crushed lol I think I'd choose to race the N1SCO not that I'm in the lead pack there either :-)
Wow quite a busy year for you then?! The Head of the Dart is on my list as ones I want to do eventually along with the round Hayling Island one. I think I might try to do the UK SUP races as well this year in the N1SCO fleet
Come and race at Brays winter series. It's a great race series with a broad range of paddler ability and would let you try tactics and build confidence. Plenty of hard boards to try. Nisco is good but it's a very different style of racing to hardboard stuff.
I'm tempted... I'll look into the details and dates.
Tactics... what are those? I just paddle my butt off and come last lol
Do you think they'd let me race on one of their hire boards?
All you can do is ask !