Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => SUP General => Topic started by: outcast on August 23, 2017, 05:20:56 PM
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Well, Our own Mr Big ....Who was found face down in the water ...what a year or two ago?, with CPR revival....pacemaker and defibrillator now :in place, had another "brush" this am:
Mid tide plenty of light, and the shark picks him as the first bonafide attack of the 2017 season....Kicking off a Cape Cod media frenzy
Dude has a degree in Theology...must have gotten straight A's !!!
Get's a Wall- Hanger out of the deal too !!!!
I tried to surf Marconi this pm.....get there as the tides dropping....5 news trucks in the parking lot, and it would have been painful to try and dodge the media to get some knee high, so i went to another break
Biggie...Don't sell yourself short....you get 15 minutes of fame.....! $10,000 per Entertainment tonite type interview....Have them fly you to the Today show I'll be your agent
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Jeeeezzz.... Biggy. What did you eat for breakfast? What deodorant were you wearing? What sunblock? He must have had some attraction.
Eatable underwear? Open cuts? To many Gin and Tonics the night before?
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Some props to King's Dave Daum for making such a solid yet lightweight board, here's a pic of local authorities doing a little investigation on the board while Clev gets interviewed himself..... maybe we'll see him on a special episode of Shark Week next year!
I was talking to him as he was pulling into his driveway, he says "oh crap they found me", a dozen or so news trucks and reporters waiting for him.
And of course he tells the news.... "yeah I'll be back surfing tomorrow if there's waves"!!
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Yes Big guy.... grab the gold ring.... make them pay for your next round of boards!
That, and the powerball ticket you should buy.
Glad you are rocking the airwaves instead of the emergency room :)
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how big was it? were you standing? or sitting ? if standing did you fall in? lets hear the story!!!!
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I know! I want to hear all the details.
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Supposedly it was only a 5-7 footer, just a juvy. Kinda scary when you think about how much larger the bite radius would be if it was that sharks mom. He told me he was paddling back out and was transitioning from prone to standing when it hit.
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Meanwhile somewhere out in the Atlantic, little Bobby, a juvenile GW, tells his story to his big brother Bill, "I was going for a Bluefish, when out of nowhere ..." :D
You rule Biggie!
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Wow! A real close call. But look on the bright side. You're like a cat with nine lives. So you've got seven more lives left.
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Supposedly it was only a 5-7 footer, just a juvy. Kinda scary when you think about how much larger the bite radius would be if it was that sharks mom. He told me he was paddling back out and was transitioning from prone to standing when it hit.
Probably pulses from his defibrillator keeping an eye on his ticker. Made the poor sharks Ampullae of Lorenzini go ZING!
It's not all that easy to estimate a shark size from the bite arc, and that bite, in particular, doesn't look like a full depth bite. More like taking a nibble out of chocolate to see what the filling is. Probably bigger than 5-7 but that's just a guess. The little guys are much more interested in fish. their teeth aren't long enough or strong enough to go after seals, or even King boards.
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This bite in Humbolt is 16" inches across from an estimated 15 foot Great White.
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Can you be sure it wasn't an ex-wife?
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Supposedly it was only a 5-7 footer, just a juvy.
Be interesting to hear the size estimate the experts give. Sure they have some sort of formula based on radius, depth and spacing of toothmarks, etc. I'm certainly no expert, but my $0.02 is that there's no way a 5' shark did that. Think Big dodged a much larger bullet than that!
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Heres an updated video from an interview he did with the news last night:
http://whdh.com/news/shark-bites-into-paddleboard-off-coast-of-wellfleet/
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Went to Marconi to grovel on my new 104 liter Accelerator sinkah. Water was cold and mungy.
Paddled over to my usual spot to the right. Friends in the water and surf school getting ready to hit it.
Caught a couple.
Turned to paddle back out in my prone style and was just starting to stand and BOOM!
Felt like being hit by a truck while riding a bike. Board hit my leg so hard I thought I had ruined the reconstruction. My right leg is not my best feature.
Did not fall off. Turned and paddled faster than Connor B.
There were 30 kids from Sacred Surf School close by and my only thought was to get them out of the water without panic. Mission accomplished.
Lifeguards, Rangers, TV, Helicopters, craziness !
The finale was when I got home and dealt with an army of reporters and big trucks with lots of dishes and such.
Am so thankful to God that nobody was really hurt and for support received from many many people.
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Scary Mr. Big....very glad your good albeit a bit shaken up. Can't even imagine!
Your interview was great too.....especially highlighting seal problem vs shark problem!
Stay safe,
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You know Biggie you are now part of an elite club.
You and Sue have survived being mauled without injury.
Sue is in the picture southwest posted.
Another friend is in the club but he wears scars.
This is one club I want no part of.
Have you been out yet? I surf with Sue on occasion.
I have known her and her husband Dan close to 30 years.
She paddled in our 5 mile race down the coast run last May.
Big of you to keep kool and get the kids out.
I also hope you get wet soon.
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DUDE you didn't fall off! You Rock! I would have fallen off thrashed and then got chomped for the thrashing. Did you see the shark swim a way? Did he give you the finger or looked pissed off? No dinner tonight!!!
I gotta agree much bigger than a 5 or 6 footer. The bite radius in the photo looks bigger that the 2 legs behind the photo holding the board. Could it have been a Bull Shark?
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He would have been safer on his 404 GoGo, sharks don't eat vegetable :-)
Glad he was not part of the sandwich.
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Chomp! Liked the part about getting the kids out without panic. Awesome bigs. Bad shark. No bigs for you!
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Amazing experience, and I'm glad nobody got seriously hurt. Wow!
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Glad you and the kids made it out safe!
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Good thing only your board was tasted. I think with the combination of your pacemaker and prone paddling out on your board, the shark's eyes and electroreceptors said bingo! looks and feels like prey and a big one.
I'm wondering if a GPS/Bluetooth watch in the water emits a strong enough electrical signal to make a shark curious? Same with a GoPro.
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I was only kidding about the Ampullae of Lorenzini, but now that I think about it, they detect voltages in the water in the range of a five nanovolts which is probably a lot less than the pacemaker emits in monitoring heartbeat. You may well be a shark magnet, Big. Sharks can detect the orientation of the earth magnet field from the voltages that seawater generates by moving in the magnetic field.
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LOL....1st thing I thought when I heard it was Mr Big was whether his pacemaker was a dinner bell.
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My gadget is not a pacemaker. Just listens through the wires. If it detects ugly waveforms, or a HR over 214 might send a shock or administer therapies to produce regular waveforms.
It's a great question to wonder if it is emitting EMF when it is monitoring. I have no idea!
Medtronic probably doesn't know either..
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Sorry, I understood the difference based on your previous explanations but I was using shorthand. Medtronics probably does know. I doubt the monitoring is completely passive, meaning it would be relying on the electrical signals from your heart to drive the amplifiers and signal conditioning that triggers the defibrillation shock. It could be done using optical isolators, but it would probably be noisy and unreliable.
I was curious enough to read a paper on it, and as I expected, most devices use a very small pulsed current to bias an operational amplifier. https://www.hindawi.com/archive/2014/981295/
So yeah, you're sharkbait.
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Yeah kinda like when you turn your TV on/off with a remote. It's not really off unless you unplug it from the socket.
I suspect with more waterproof electrical devices people are taking to the water such as GoPro, watches, GPS, the more curious people may become to sharks.
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Off to have a chat with a Marine Biologist tomorrow who is going to accurately measure the teeth marks and come up with a much more accurate size estimate than my SWAG of 5-7 feet.
Will also discuss the voltages and such that sharks sense. Should be interesting.
Smart watches GPS questions raised here also will be discussed thanks to this thread..
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I'm think that an implanted (ICD) would might actually start ramping up the voltage in capacitors as your heart rate starts nearing it's variable threshold. Your heart rate will spike on a wave and even go higher depending on how you terminate your ride. At that moment the capacitors could be readying themselves for a potential rapid discharge. You know what that feels like. You may be more attractive to the dark side at that moment?
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mrbig I'd talk to Ocean Ramsey about your situation. Here's a link to her TED talk.
The more I learn from her work the more my fear of sharks turn into admiration and respect for them.
https://youtu.be/UVuHuifQL8Q
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TallDude, You are absolutely correct. The damn thing makes a humming sound similar to an old school flash gun before it administers a shock.
In certain parts of the world random electric shocks are administered as a means of torture. Very effective I hear.
The one shock I have received was preceded by a subtle fizzing sound and the anticipatory anxiety was intense to say the least.
An SCA Forum that I was active on initially had many posts on that topic; "inappropriate" shocks was another favorite; shock "storms" even more fun.
So what is being emitted as the ICD is "winding up" is a great question.
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Most of the R&R's study the effects of EMI on ICD's and Pacemaker's, but not the inverse. Aside from EMI's, your body is a conductor. What ever volts, microvolts, millivolts or nanovolts that your ICD is emitting, is going straight into the water. Which leads me to another question about how effective the ICD is when your are in the water. Not standing above it (insulated -un-grounded), but actually in contact with it. It would be like walking barefoot in the rain, you're grounded. If your ICD discharged while you were in the water and someone was right next to you, they could conceivably be zapped too. If you were on a carbon fiber board, and you were standing on the carbon fiber, you would effectively be grounded. Any current that your ICD emitted would be emitted into the water. At a much reduced voltage, but some current. Maybe the sharks can sense that current? If your are on a standard Fiberglass board with a deck pad, you would be fairly insulated.
Lots of interesting angles, but I think you guys are on something on to something:)
The shark could not have pick a better SUP ambassador ::)
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BTW, here's a very simple form of how the ICD zaps you. Capacitance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVGxfMB2QYs
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Hmm. I might be missing something but the discharge goes through wires that are imbedded in the actual heart muscle itself. Not subtle at all. Like being hit on a 220 dryer line.
The other issue, I thought, was the nature of very subtle emanations while it was in observation mode. Do the sharks perceive them, and do they attract or repel?
My indigenous teachers would tell me I have now been gifted with shark "medicine"..
Still digesting and assimilating that experience..
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Still digesting and assimilating that experience..
I can't imagine..... It was super special for sure.
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Still digesting and assimilating that experience..
As long as you are the one digesting and not the other way around, all is good.
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Luc, Dat funny Brah! :D
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Can you hear your heart beating through your Walkman bluetooth?
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Most of the R&R's study the effects of EMI on ICD's and Pacemaker's, but not the inverse. Aside from EMI's, your body is a conductor. What ever volts, microvolts, millivolts or nanovolts that your ICD is emitting, is going straight into the water. Which leads me to another question about how effective the ICD is when your are in the water. Not standing above it (insulated -un-grounded), but actually in contact with it. It would be like walking barefoot in the rain, you're grounded. If your ICD discharged while you were in the water and someone was right next to you, they could conceivably be zapped too. If you were on a carbon fiber board, and you were standing on the carbon fiber, you would effectively be grounded. Any current that your ICD emitted would be emitted into the water. At a much reduced voltage, but some current. Maybe the sharks can sense that current? If your are on a standard Fiberglass board with a deck pad, you would be fairly insulated.
Nope. House builder guy notion of electricity. Electrical circuits that don't include a path to literal ground (which is everything built after 1920) simply have a positive and negative side. No more grounded than a battery sitting in your drawer. Yes, the electrical grid still sweats ground return paths. That's about it. Grounded circuits are mostly an anachronism. Even in houses, the neutral side should be at ground potential and if it isn't, there's a fault. So why do we worry about it? Because neutral is supposed to be grounded but there's a lot of old shit out there and electricians (and DIY folks) make mistakes.
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Well this house builder guy took electronics in high school and junior college. I used to have my resistor color codes memorized. I've built IC's from scratch. Single layer stuff. Done micro soldering, but that was a long time ago. I do understand the differences between AC and DC, bypasses filtering, amplifiers, diodes, etc. I have built and repaired a ton of music amps, power supplies and computers over the years including the one I'm on now. Peg me as you may. Once that ICD senses an increase in blood flow near the set HR threshold, it's going to kick some Kilovolts. You're telling me it won't be seeking any ground when it arc's? I'm probably wrong...
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"Nope. House builder guy notion of electricity. "
Agree with Pono on this. Only way for current to set up in the water from the body would be if one part of the body is at a different electrical potential than another. So if your heart jolt gizmo did it with a wire running down each leg, it could happen. With the jolt wires localized in the heart, no delta V anywhere outside the body.
JP
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Ok. Gizmo is the technical description. And I guess the wires would be localized. That sounds like an answer? No need to stand clear while it's firing. So if a lifeguard was pulling someone with an ICD out of the water, like a lifeguard is taught, and the ICD starts firing, you don't think the lifeguard would even feel a tingle?
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I think I'm going to start broadcasting Orca hunting sounds when I surf the Cape..... ;)
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Well this house builder guy took electronics in high school and junior college. I used to have my resistor color codes memorized. I've built IC's from scratch. Single layer stuff. Done micro soldering, but that was a long time ago. I do understand the differences between AC and DC, bypasses filtering, amplifiers, diodes, etc. I have built and repaired a ton of music amps, power supplies and computers over the years including the one I'm on now. Peg me as you may. Once that ICD senses an increase in blood flow near the set HR threshold, it's going to kick some Kilovolts. You're telling me it won't be seeking any ground when it arc's? I'm probably wrong...
Cool. But yup, you're wrong. Nothing magic about ground, it's a word used in a lot of ways, which makes it imprecise, but there's no potential between Bigs device and ground, or more precisely the salt water around him. Simply having a high voltage doesn't mean "ground" becomes important. Except for some odd mediums, the electrons flow from positive to negative. If there isn't a return path to negative, there's no potential--other than what used to be called sheet resistance, but now that term generally applies to thin film eddy currents. I don't know what the new term for potential induced into probes in a conductive fluid is, so I'll stick with the old definition.
The electrical signals that might (or might not) be of interest to the sharks are the monitoring current, which likely flows all the time. It makes it's way out to the water through the sheet resistance effect. Consider two poles A and B separated by some distance in a conductive liquid. Between A and B there is some resistance. If you think of the paths using the typical calculation of parallel resistance 1/Rt=1/R1 + 1/R2...1/Rn) and realize there are an infinite number of paths. Ah, shit, let's not go down that rathole. Anyway, there is some resistance between a and b. If we put probes c and d in the water separated by some distance, there is some resistance between c and d, and some resistance between pole a and probe c, some resistance between a and c, and a and d, and b and c, and b and d.
Any signal placed on the poles has a current path to the probes. The signal will be weak and attenuated by distance, but it's there. The wider you separate A and B, the greater the resistance is between them so the further away it can be detected. The further you separate C from D the more sensitive your detector is. I assume that's why sharks have Ampullae of Lorenzini along their sides as well as on their face.
So yeah, your lifeguard could feel a tingle from sheet resistance effect, but not because it's high voltage and he's grounded.
When you see something like a big Tesla coil or a van de Graff electrostatic generator throwing giant sparks to ground that's because ground is the negative side of the current path. My old Van De Graff wasn't grounded, so it threw sparks to the base. I ungrounded it so I could approach it without getting zapped in the pens in my pocket.
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Coincidentally this was in my inbox this morning in one of the daily briefings I get from Adafruit on biohacking. A heart and health monitoring system that can be stuck on your skin anywhere that works by sheet resistance. http://www.kurzweilai.net/flexible-electronic-skin-patch-provides-wearable-health-monitoring-anywhere-on-the-body?utm_term=0_6de721fb33-2a44f44eb7-281952049
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Thanks Pono:) I wonder if the girl that was attacked at SanO was wearing a Fitbit or some sort of transmitting watch?
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Guys I hate to bust your bubble but there is absolutely NO attraction or repellent in regards to sharks from the implant Cleveland has or any other cardiac type defib device or pacemaker.
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Guys I hate to bust your bubble but there is absolutely NO attraction or repellent in regards to sharks from the implant Cleveland has or any other cardiac type defib device or pacemaker.
Oh man...
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Buzzkill. I was 85% kidding, but I don't know enough about them to know one way or the other. I'm curious how you believe know that. Sharks home in on fish--especially injured ones--from myoelectrical impulses, which at the range they detect them from has to be just nanovolts. I'm still thinking Big should get a tattoo that says Sharkbait right over his implant.
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Had a great time hanging out with the Marine Biologists at Atlantic Shark Conservancy today. Learned a great deal.
The original estimate on size of shark was way off. It was done at the beach and missed some rather large holes. Upon further review 10-12 feet not 5-7 feet. Of course that offhand SWAG came from me. Amazing fake news!
The barbaric idea put forth by a deranged local politico was tried in Australia and failed miserably. Actually made things worse.
If you are local sign the petition. I believe KDOG has a link on his FB page.
Sharks very cautious. Seals have teeth and obviously fight back. Losing an eye over dinner not a good thing.
They prefer the grey seals, and not the harbor seals. Risk similar reward not so much because of the size differences.
This leads to the catch and shake versus the catch and release. The smaller harbor seals have the same bite pattern that was on my board.
I am most grateful that my encounter was a catch and release.
Their ability to sense electrical impulses is remarkable, but only effective at short distances. Fifty yards or so is the maximum range at which they operate.
I did ask specifically about ICD implants and inside of fifty yards they would be aware, but are not the same as those emitted by other aquatic creatures. Curious perhaps, but not causally related to an attack.
The fact that my great uncle Henry Bryant Bigelow was the founder of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute helped an enormous amount.
My board will probably end up in their museum. Next to the kayak that was launched literally into the air by an 18 footer.
And then I left and to do a short radio spot with a guy who I played baseball with in the over 35 wooden bat league for the Chatham Sharks! LOL! Can't make this stuff up.
I have been feeling as if God has put me in a Wiley Coyote Roadrunner cartoon recently and am incredibly grateful that no one was seriously injured..
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That is entirely awesome Mr. Big! :) :) :)
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Sounds like you are have fun with this. Living big... Mr Big.
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Garmin data. Notice a dramatic change in HR! WTF!
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I can't wait to hear what your cardiologist says or asks about that sudden spike and slow decline.
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Link to article in Stand Up Journal.
http://standupjournal.com/news/standup-paddlers-shark-attack-cape-cod/
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I knew those bite marks were from a bigger shark than a 5 to 7 footer.
An 11 foot Great White fits those bite marks just about right.
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Garmin data. Notice a dramatic change in HR! WTF!
Adrenaline is highly addictive! Go easy on the major thrills. I suggest laying off sharks for the rest of the week.
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Mr Big, What a story, glad you made it out alive man.
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It's always a good day when you come back without becoming SUP sushi.
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Ok. Gizmo is the technical description. And I guess the wires would be localized. That sounds like an answer? No need to stand clear while it's firing. So if a lifeguard was pulling someone with an ICD out of the water, like a lifeguard is taught, and the ICD starts firing, you don't think the lifeguard would even feel a tingle?
Don't know squat about any of the technical electronics stuff, but 29 years at the FD, with 18 of those as paramedic, and having pumped on several chests that had ICDs...I can tell you that with the thin latex gloves we wore, you can't feel a thing. In fact we didn't know one was even implanted unless someone familiar with the patient told us, or until we threw the EKG monitor on them.
While the same in theory to the external defibrillators we used, according to the manufacturers that gave us in-services on them, since their wires are attached directly to the heart muscle, they only needed to deliver anywhere from 30-80 joules due to the greatly reduced resistance, where as we started at 200 joules, and worked our way up to 400, and why we needed to clear anyone from touching the patient before discharge, where chest compressions on a discharging ICD are not felt nor worrisome. Side note: when a buddy of mine discharged an external defib on a near drowning on a wet concrete pool deck, all of us kneeling next to the patient with our hands off of him felt the tingle/bite through our knees in our wet turnout pants...but it was the guy who pressed the dang button, felt it on his knees as well, freaked, and threw the paddles in the air like they were two hot potatoes thinking he had somehow managed to shock himself ;D)
Mr. Big - incredible story of probably one of the worse nightmares us floating around in the ocean could ever experience. So pleased you came out unscathed, and no worse for the wear other than maybe your nerves, and that once beautiful Kings board. Great wall-hanger though as someone else has already mentioned, and one hell of a story for sure.
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Inquiring minds want to know. I called the folks at the Cardiology Institute and asked for a remote down load from August 23 which was the date of my shark encounter.
They look at many things, my main concerns are maximum speed, duration, and irregular waveforms indicative of V-tach and of course any V-fib - which get you shocked.
Fascinating results. The two races I entered produced the steadiest high rate around 180 for the entire time. Since I only do short 3-5 milers no worries at all.
Gert and the Tropical Depression delivered spikes of 190-192 which is consistent with earlier data. Head and a half gets the notorious B-I-G al fired up. No funny waveforms at all and the HR doesn't stay elevated.
On the day of my Shark Initiation - from a Shamanic Perspective - the maximum was only 175 or so, no sketchy waveforms at all, but it did stay at an elevated rate much longer.
Keep training on the raceboard, keep surfing the Beeg Wans, keep racing, be aware and give thanks to the Limitness and Merciful One.
Been sniffing around on all of the Shark Men gods in indigenous cultures. My cross-cultural Div Skuhl background most curious.
Ka-moho-ali'i !!!!
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How do they download your data? Bluetooth or do you have a USB port under your skin?
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Mr. Big, only wished I spent a little more time talking to you when I was playing my music that day, when I saw you a couple days before this encounter. Possibly, it would have been one of the last times that I would have seen you! I was at the same break all week and I left the day that you got hit. This is one of my favorite breaks, and I have to just keep on telling myself that it was the pacemaker and Whitey wants nothing to me... even though a 16-18 surfaced near Tim, Damian and myself last June at Cahoon Hollow. My protection is the CCBC hook, which I wear whenever I'm in the water. I was wondering why PDLSFR wouldn't put his feet in the water during the CCBC breaks, until he told me afterwards that something big swam under is board. Maybe we'll earn one in the relay next year, stop this sh.t from happening... only appropriate that we played for the Chatham Sharks men's league baseball together. Glad your okay Cleve