Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => SUP Marketplace => Sunova SUP => Topic started by: mosh on August 22, 2017, 01:58:32 PM
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Just took delivery of my 2nd Sunova yesterday (8'10 Flow and bag) and had a question on the goretex vent plug. The area around the vent plug had a few marks, so I decided to pour a little water on the plug to see what happened. What I saw made me question if the plug is leaking around the threads?
I get that the vent plugs will bubble from the middle when the board is releasing air, but mine seems be leaking air at the side of the plug in addition to the middle of the vent. Just curious if this is anything to worry about. Is this air making it's way through the goretex or bypassing it somehow?
I'm heading out in a few days for a weeklong trip to Tofino, BC and was looking forward to testing out the new ride.
Here's a quick video that shows the issue. (not sure how to imbed video) Bottom left of plug, around 7 o'clock mark, you'll see the bubbles. Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks guys!
https://youtu.be/KHrvx6xp6Tw (https://youtu.be/KHrvx6xp6Tw)
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I would suggest emailing this video directly to Tino at Sunova to get his take on what you are seeing. He knows how they work and how they are installed, so he can clear up any questions. If you don't have his email, PM me or SupTheCreek and we can email Tino's email address to you.
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Will do. Thanks Nalu.
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You can unscrew the threaded insert gore plug, and see if it's seated right. Sometimes the threads get crossed or they just didn't get tightened initially. You can just re-install it, and then you'll know it's snug. It looks like it's doing it's job bubbling out the gas. Mine look just like that when there is water covering the vent.
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Like Tall Dude said, it looks like it's just doing it's job of releasing gas.
I didn't see any change in the water around the plug.
If the plug was compromised the water would be seeping in.
Tino is traveling now, he will probably arrive at my house on Thursday so I will show him this, as I am no expert on the vents.
I will attempt to forward the Youtube link to him now.
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Thanks guys. Yeah, I dropped Tino a direct email as well to get his take on it.
I was totally expecting to see the board releasing from the center of the vent, as that is how they are supposed to work and my other Sunova does the same. The odd thing I noticed was the tiny air bubbles coming up between the threads of the aluminum screw and plastic housing. The video doesn't show it that well, but you can see separate air bubbles at the bottom coming up through the threads. My other board doesn't do that.
I'm tempted to unscrew it and reseat the vent, but don't want to mess anything up on a brand new board. I'll wait and see what Tino has to say.
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my guess without looking is that the oring in not sealing the plug, no water should go in while doing that test as the air is expanding however if you have used it at put it in the ocean that is cold this makes the air contract fast in the board and could draw in water
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I just had a similar issue with one of my boards, not a sunova. Turned out the body of the vent assembly had no epoxy down one side where it is glued into the board
so the board was venting up the side of it. try to see if that's where the bubbles are coming from?
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Agree there is a side leak. If it is threaded in (I don't know this plugs configuration) use some petroleum jelly on thread or plumbers goop and retest. If it's a permanent fixture sand that tiny bubble spot and hit it with a drop of epoxy.
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Creek, if you pop the video up to full screen and look at the bottom left edge of the plug you'll see what Mosh is worried about. I haven't seen these aluminum plugs before, the Goretex vents in my boards use plastic plugs--these aluminum ones are cool, the plastic ones break too easily. It looks like you pull it out with an Allen wrench. I'd say it's definitely leaking from the threads, not from the outside of the housing. I'd take the thing out and inspect. If there is an O-ring then make sure it's not damaged and that the seat area is clean. You can grease the o-ring with a little silicon grease and you can add a few wraps of Teflon tape to the screw to seal better, I do that even on my plastic ones--any hardware store should have both. Don't use any epoxy, being able to remove the screw is handy for cleaning the Goretex.
Don't be nervous about pulling the plug, it's made to be removed. Good catch BTW, I don't think I would have noticed that.
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mosh, since better eyes than mine have looked at it, be safe and keep dry till we figure this out.
Where are you located? I have some spare vent systems with me on Cape Cod.
No reply from Tino yet, as I know he is in transit.
We will get back to you!
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Yeah, I was a little hesitant to unscrew the plug as I wasn't sure if they hit the threads with epoxy or glue during the manufacturing process and I'd have to deal with breaking it free. If there are no issues with unthreading it, then I'll check the rubber seals and hit the threads with Telfon tape as suggested. Has anyone removed these Sunova plugs before? Maybe, I'll wait on Tino's direction as I don't want to mess up warranty, etc.
Creek .... I'm located in Vancouver, BC, Canada. I leave Sunday morning for a 8 day surf trip and was hoping to bring the new board along, so shipping out a new plug might not make it in time. Although, I will err on the side of safety and keep it dry until this is sorted.
The only reason I noticed this, is the first time I put some water on it, I could see bubbles coming up through the threads even when the middle of the plug wasn't venting. I thought that was odd.
Appreciate the feedback and assistance guys, thanks.
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No, there isn't any glue on the threads unless someone screwed up (doubtful). The Goretex gets mineral deposits from water evaporating that won't dissolve easily once they've dried, so it's a worthwhile preventive maintenance thing to pull them and soak them in Vinegar and water every year or so. Never touch or scrape the Goretex though. I pull mine fairly frequently when I'm fixing my inevitable dings to control the pressure in the board while the hotcoat is curing.
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Here's what it looks like when you remove the plug.
I always remove the plug immediately after buying a new board to make sure it was installed correctly. Then I re-install it with some silicone grease on the threads and washer to give it a good seal, being careful not to get any grease on the membrane.
One thing I've noticed about the Sunova vent plugs is that I've never seen them bubble. As a test, I just poured some water on both my boards and they didn't bubble at all.
My plastic Jimmy Lewis vents bubble but not the Sunovas. The Sunova vents are much smaller with just a tiny hole for the air to pass through. Everyone should check their Sunovas right now to see if they bubble and report back. I think I remember reading somewhere that Sunova vents don't bubble a whole lot compared to other types of vents.
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Badger, that picture is super helpful. Gives me a good idea of what's going on in there. Thanks!
Bill, good call on the preventative maintenance. I've been a little slack in that area and may need to address my other boards to ensure all is good.
Here's what it looks like.
I always remove the plug immediately after buying a new board to make sure it was installed correctly. Then I re-install it with some silicone grease on the threads and washer to give it a good seal, being careful not to get any grease on the membrane.
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Question to Creek and Tino, after this subject has been raised..
Should we be checking our vents on our Sunovas ???
Cheers.
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Hmmm. Rubber washer instead of an O-ring, not quite as reliable a seal with light pressure, but on the plus side, harder to screw up. Should work OK with a perfectly clean seat and a little grease though.
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Good advise cleaning those plugs on a regular basis.
Not to sure this is a good idea,,,You can grease the o-ring with a little silicon grease
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It's best to avoid chemicals on o-rings unless you know what they are made of.
http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm#chem
Also not sure why you would want to seal the threads with glue, there is very little pressure passing through those plugs and unless you take your board underwater over 20 feet or so no water is getting by those threads.
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Not to sure this is a good idea,,,You can grease the o-ring with a little silicon grease
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It's best to avoid chemicals on o-rings unless you know what they are made of.
http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm#chem
Silicone grease is the most common recommended grease for O rings. It's what they sell at pool supply stores just for that purpose. I've used it for over twenty years on all my O rings, even the really thin ones in watches and have never seen one deteriorate.
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I have 2 Sunovas and both vents will bubble when experiencing temperature changes from cool to warm. I took them from the garage, put them in the sun and poured water on the vents. The new one bubbles a bit more aggressively and I can only assume that the older one might have residue buildup which is mildly restricting the air flow.
One thing I've noticed about the Sunova vent plugs is that I've never seen them bubble. As a test, I just poured some water on both my boards and they didn't bubble at all.
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I just tried that as well, putting both boards in the sun with water on the vents letting the boards get good and hot and still no bubbles. Maybe I need to clean them. I've been surfing my two Flows for a year and a half.
I was actually thinking of replacing my vented plugs with the solid non-vented kind. I never leave the boards in the sun for very long and don't plan on flying with them so my boards probably don't even need vents.
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Just talked to Tino... till he went through a tunnel and lost service :)
SUNOVA OWNERS:
Tino said:
do NOT unscrew your vent plugs to check.
There have been less than 1% of vents with issues.
The vents are designed to be 100% maintenance free
Opening them may compromise the vent.
Tino has already had the factory ship mosh a replacement vent.
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I know about salt crystals. Last year when I took my Hammer down to the Texas coast, before I loaded up my Hammer for the return trip home, I always carry a few bottles of fresh water to pour on my two vent plugs to make sure there is no saltwater to evaporate and form salt crystals in the plugs.
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Thanks STC and Tino for confirmation...
Leave well alone then, cheers.
Happy surfing.
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Wouldn't it be a good idea to at least make sure that the vent is screwed all the way in?
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What? That's crazy. What is Mosh going to do with a replacement plug if he isn't going to pull it out and put the new one in? Did Tino understand that it isn't the plug that's a problem, just air getting past the threads? It's probably a little sanding dust on the seat keeping the rubber ring from sealing.
I do like the aluminum plugs. If you talk to Tino again ask him if they are 12mm X 1 like the plastic ones are.
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If TINO is shipping MOSH a replacement why doesn't he self service aka use Silicone Grease and/or teflon tape.
Nothing to lose at this point. And you don't have to wait for the plug.
Then re-test. If no bubbles, along the threads, you should be good to go. Just chalk it up to an imperfect initial plug installation.
Keep the spare for future use.
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I'm going to guess at this....the advice is based on the fact that real Goretex plugs are easy to damage. Consumers can be kooks at times.
I tell all my customers, don't touch it!
The video doesn't really show what's going on in my view.
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DW, have you seen these aluminum ones before? I haven't, and I can't find any mention of them on the web. I like the looks of it. Easy to lose the cap on the plastic ones.
If you have a good sized screen, just pop the video up to full screen and look at about 7 o'clock right at the edge of the plug. Pretty clear once you do that. A little bubble coming up right from the threads between the aluminum plug and the housing. I don't think you'd ever see this with the plastic ones--the cap blocks the view.
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Hey Guys,
So this is what I have done. I'm not advocating people start pulling their plugs, but this seemed to have fixed the issue for me. Using logic and some great advice from you guys, I decided to pull the plug and take a look.
Very carefully unscrewed the plug using an allen key and took a look at the rubber seal. The plug was barely snug and took nothing to back out. (that there could have been part of problem)
The rubber seal did have some plastic looking particles or dust on it and it seemed to be pushed to one side slightly. Pulled out rubber seal, cleaned off the dust and cleaned up shelf where the seal sits. I hit the threads of the aluminum plug with a single wrap of teflon tape and reinstalled so that it was snug, but not overly tight.
I am now getting the occasional small bubbles from the center of the vent when I move the board into the hot sun, but nothing is coming up through the threads. I did notice that if I tightened too much, the venting would stop and backing it off just a hair brought back the bubbles from the center of the vent.
At this point, I think my issue is solved and a big thanks to everyone who helped guide me in the right direction.
-Jason
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I'm sure Tino is expecting a bunch of people to screw up their plugs now, though this aluminum guy looks bulletproof compared to the plastic hexes. I can see where overtightening might squish the rubber over the hole in the housing. Nice part. I want some of these.
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All good to know. For what it is worth I blew out/broke a vent taking it in/out too many times, like Pono to do repairs.
I had to order "a" new one and eventually just bought 5. These vents all seemed to work but what I realized was that the vent on one board didn't seem to vent (outward). This was my Paddle Surf Hawaii that had been constantly de-laminating and bubbling . . . . Could it have been a defective vent all along ? :o
This may help to know that you can get 5X Vents for $30 off eBay and that they FIT into the standard GORE vent hole.
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Good price, they're usually 20 bucks apiece. I need some (misplaced one in my V1) but I want the aluminum ones. Though for 30 bucks, what the heck. Ordered.
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I'm sure Tino is expecting a bunch of people to screw up their plugs now, though this aluminum guy looks bulletproof compared to the plastic hexes. I can see where overtightening might squish the rubber over the hole in the housing. Nice part. I want some of these.
The aluminum Sunova plugs are only 12mm in diameter.
The hole in the top of the plug that the air passes through is only 3mm. Someone could easily puncture the membrane by inserting a tooth pick into the hole.
I know of no other brand that uses these plugs.
The washer is not that soft. I doubt overtightening could squish it enough to block the hole.
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All the vent plugs I know of are 12X1 MM and your can screw up the goretex on any vent plug.
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Das GoreTex venten ist nicht fÜr der gefingerpoken und mittengraben!
In general, you should never have to remove the GT element from a vent. Unlike a solid vent, that you might remove when you are making repairs, with a GT element, that is simply not necessary.
Keep in mind that if you ever cross thread any element, whether solid or GT, the body can be successfully rethreaded without issue as the seal is provided by the o-ring alone which in turn relies on a uniform seat (for instance if it were cross threaded you would have uneven pressure on the o-ring seal).
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Yes and no. It's a really small circle of goretex, and there are a lot of things that can clog it up--minerals, grease, wax, eps particles and sanding dust, etc.. It doesn't take a lot of pressure to delam a board, I've stupidly broken internal stringers loose in a hollow board by blowing in a vent tube to detect leaks (yup, he's a blowhard). So if you've had a board with a goretex vent for a couple of years it might be a good idea to replace or clean them. What you should feel if you blow in a Goretex vent is a solid plugged feeling, that if you hold the pressure for a while with just cheek tension (like blowing up a stubborn balloon) slowly dissipates. I just drop them in water with a little vinegar to dissolve minerals, which seem to be the biggest problem. Most minerals are basic, the acidic vinegar combines with the alkaline deposits to make salts, which are ionic and generally dissolve in water nicely--the same way you can clean calcium deposits from a plugged showerhead.
If that doesn't get your plug bubbling when you put a cool board in the sun for a few minutes then replace the plug. They used to be ridiculously expensive, but now they aren't.
The only caveat is SIC boards. Some of them use a Goretex vent plug I haven't seen before that is quite a bit longer. Maybe you can get replacements from SIC, but I've just used the shorter ones with teflon tape on the screw threads. the threads aren't tapered like pipe thread, so just a couple of wraps won't seal. I do about five or six wraps with the wrap finishing at the top of the plug to give a little taper. Works fine.
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All the vent plugs I know of are 12X1 MM and your can screw up the goretex on any vent plug.
By golly you're right. I always thought the plastic plugs were bigger. But they're not. Good to know. :)
The Jimmy Lewis plugs are a little more tamper proof. You would have to pry off the cap to access the Goretex. What I'm more concerned about with the Sunova plugs is some little kid coming along and sticking something in the vent hole.
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Yes, I'd like a nickel for every time I've come back to my board, after running up to the beach shack, only to find some kid shoveling sand or just standing on my board. No harm no foul, as long as the mom is hot... ;D
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I usually turn to the Mom (or dad) and say "that's a four thousand dollar board you're letting your pathetic spawn jump on, are you ready to pay for that". Of course, they act like it's my fault for leaving it where the little snot-crusted weasel can get to it.
...Unless Mom is hot.
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Having a similar problem with the vent plug on a Bark Dominator (2014) - slow bubbling from the side of the plug even when the board is cool. Went to take it out to check threads and try to reseat, but the diameter of the hole around the plug is too small to get a regular 15mm (or any size) socket in. Even tried an extra-thin-wall socket. Have done this many times with my surf sups but can't figure out what to use to unscrew this one. Emailed Surftech and Joe Bark but no response. Anybody know of a tool that would work for this?
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Here's a video from Robert that says 5/8" socket. There is one from Distressed Mullet that says 16mm. ??? They are very close.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HBpFGpvM0
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I had this problem with a nsp. Found a 16mm thin walled socket for motorbike spark plugs worked. When refitting don't use a handle on the socket you will break the top cap off, only hand tighten then then test for leaks.
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Yes, 16mm or 5/8" spark plug (thin-wall) socket. Both are very close in actual size (16/25.4 vs 5/8) so most manufacturers use the same tooling to produce both (even Snap On). ;D
On the Bark, with a regular GT vent, the bubbles will come out on the sides. An alternative approach for you would be to simply weigh the board and monitor going forward.
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When refitting don't use a handle on the socket you will break the top cap off, only hand tighten then then test for leaks.
That's a good tip. The first time I tried removing a plug years ago using the handle, the cap broke off. I had to glue it back on with epoxy because it wouldn't stay on otherwise.
If the threads are clean it should be no problem turning the socket by hand, This is where it helps to have a little silicone grease on the threads. You can feel it bottom out on the O-ring better. I sometimes very lightly use pliers for the final snug down but never the socket handle.
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Once I got the plug out I found it was blocked with foam debris, so good to check for that too.
In my case the plug was totally blocked and it turned out the air was working its way out of the board around the body of the vent itself, so check for any bubbles coming from where the deck skin meets the body of the vent. When I removed the old vent body I found there was no resin down one side of it and that was the air's escape route. I ended up glassing-in a new vent body, all good now.
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Having a similar problem with the vent plug on a Bark Dominator (2014) - slow bubbling from the side of the plug even when the board is cool. Went to take it out to check threads and try to reseat, but the diameter of the hole around the plug is too small to get a regular 15mm (or any size) socket in. Even tried an extra-thin-wall socket. Have done this many times with my surf sups but can't figure out what to use to unscrew this one. Emailed Surftech and Joe Bark but no response. Anybody know of a tool that would work for this?
Yeah, it's 5/8 (loose 16mm, actually 15.875mm), and the cheesy stamped spark plug socket from any motorcycle tool kit for a bike that uses "D" plugs (most hondas) is perfect. I've taken them out with thin needle nose pliers, but that grips the top, not the bottom of the hex, and it's very weak--just a cover held on with dinky plastic fingers. I robbed one of my bike toolkits and painted the plug wrench flourescent orange and I STILL can't find it.
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It's probably laying on top of your hunting cap...
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I just looked for it again, and just found my tube bending cheater. I need to hide that so it doesn't grab my attention, but then I'll never be able to find it again.(http://www.theretirementtrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/IMG_6712.JPG)
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Yeah, an old thread, but I thought I would add my two cents regardless. The Sunova vents come from the SUP Think Tank, same as the LIFTSUP handles. I get why Tino says don't mess with 'em, I thought mine was wonky and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. Board building is dusty work and it's pretty easy to see how the plug doesn't get set right. Dry the area, unscrew the plug, blow out the hole and brush out all the threads with a tooth brush. A light film of Silicone on the plug threads, Tighten firmly, but not tight and it will never leak again. Needless to say, never touch or get anything on the Gore membrane.
My real tip is this. I always cover my vent openings with a piece of helicopter tape with not much more then a millimeter or two of overlap around the opening. It might bubble up in the heat or even sink in the cold. What it does though is prevents any sand, salt or other containment into the plug hole and stops the worry of rinsing the plug area especially after use in saltwater. Helicopter tape is super pliable and holds it's bond, don't use anything else. If the interior pressure changes enough, it will release easily, but in everyday conditions mine have never opened ever.
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Just to add a final update on this thread, the factory did ship me out 2 replacement vents with new rubber seals pretty quick and once I installed the new plug/seal, the issues were resolved and haven't returned.
The newer versions of the plugs are pretty cool as the goretex membrane is fully encased inside the aluminum body of the plug, whereas the older versions had the membrane attached to the bottom of the plug. The new ones seeem to provide additional protection for the membrane as it's not directly exposed on the outside.
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I think the real worry that Tino was having with a novice (mechanical kook) removing or more dangerously reinstalling the plug was metal vs. plastic. That male threaded aluminum plug could easily crack the bottom of the female threaded plastic plug housing. An extra turn tightening the plug and the bottom of the plastic housing would just crack off. If that happens, then you'd be relying solely on the thread sealant if any was installed. I have a tenancy to over tighten (torque) everything. I try to use a torque wench as much as possible when working on cars. I inherited that trait from the dad, who I watched bust the heads off of many a bolts ::)
You know when your friends take off on their dirt bikes, and then you realized your handle bars are loose. So you get your dad to tighten them...... and he busts them off instead......
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Torque wrenches are always a good idea, but short wrenches work almost as well. I have a full set of short wrenches and short socket ratchets and breakers for every size, english and metric, and rarely use long ones--if you need to reef on a bolt or nut then it's time for the torque wrench.
An ancient Rolls Royce service manual I saw listed very few torque specifications. Their primary spec was "a short wrench and a reasonable man." My dad considered himself a bit of a mechanic--he worked for GMC Truck as parts manager--but he was pretty ham-fisted.