Standup Zone Forum

The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: Admin on July 05, 2017, 06:35:15 AM

Title: Windfoiling
Post by: Admin on July 05, 2017, 06:35:15 AM
https://vimeo.com/223228298

Nice vid.

I had my first try Windfoiling yesterday.  A friend let me take his Slingshot setup out for a few laps.  Really fun. 

It was pretty windy (22-27) and a second footstrap would have been nice to make bearing off more of a possibility.  I felt like I was fairly over-sailed for the foil and it wanted to foil all the time.  There was a 2-3 foot swell which would lift it onto the foil without any rider input.  Fortunately, the board had enough scoop and the mast (24) was short enough that these foil bounces would not buck too badly on water touch down.  Problem was I had to use too much body to counter the sail and could not really get forward enough to try to trim once up most of the time.  I had a couple of lulls in flatter water where i was able to low altitude reach for a few seconds.  Nice feeling.  I am definitely interested in trying on a lighter day, flatter water and with a relatively smaller sail.

Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: yugi on July 05, 2017, 08:22:43 AM
Pretty cool for a first go. I look forward to trying.

Glad I kept a bunch of my windsurf rigs. They may ride again someday.

Talked with a 80's windsurf world champ the other day. He mainly surfskis and kite foils these days. Cool how our watersports keep evolving.

Personally I'm more attracted to windfoiling (and SUP foiling) than kite. Even if it less performance than kite-foiling. I'd get into Moth foiling but I'm so over having so much gear to take care of and store.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Admin on July 05, 2017, 10:03:23 AM
Of all of the foil sports kiting looks the most natural to me.  Moths, and other sailboats are right there as well.  The windsurfing still looks a little awkward to me but it is also the most accessible.  Maybe a good launching point?
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 05, 2017, 10:04:59 AM
Guys, check out the Neil Pryde aluminum foil before buying the Slingshot. Guys have both here, the Neil Pryde is way lighter and nicer in my opinion. Plus it's cheaper at $750

I honestly think everyone will have to lower prices to match Neil Pryde.  It's that good.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 05, 2017, 10:10:25 AM
My take on kiting versus windsurf foiling....

When I windsurf foiled, the upwind angles were nothing special. The ability to glide through big holes in the wind was disappointing.

After trying kite foiling, I'm totally addicting to kiting again after having become bore by it. The upwind angles are insane. The thrilling speed. The ability to take long distance cruises for miles. Amazing.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Admin on July 05, 2017, 10:15:04 AM
Yeah, I watched a few guys in Baja on foil kites and foils going straight up wind when there was just a breath of wind.  Looked great.  Foiling tacks, etc.

For windsurf foiling are your friends all using the ultra wide boards? 
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: PonoBill on July 05, 2017, 10:28:53 AM
I was watching some of the windfoiling guys Monday when we had dinner at the Best Best Western. They were running on a downwind reach from beyond the EC, under the bride, almost all the way to the chip barge, then turning around and going upwind to beyond the EC on a single jibe. It looked like they were pointing impossibly close to the wind, but they did it several times.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: starman on July 05, 2017, 10:39:46 AM
I think it's important to point out that the Naish foil for windsurfing is for light winds.

The video he posted on Facebook has a question regarding high wind performance;

 Have you tested in more extreme conditions? Could you handle 25knots + and waves??
6 · June 7 at 7:34pm
Robby Naish
Robby Naish You can, but to me, at least at this stage, it kind of defeats the purpose. If you can plane and go fast and jump on a normal board you don't really need a foil. But you certainly can go. Foils would be different designs for strong winds... optimized for higher speeds etc. But you will have amazing crashes and likely break lots of stuff too !!
81 · June 7 at 8:40pm

So like everything else one size does not fit all.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 05, 2017, 10:51:39 AM
For windsurf foiling are your friends all using the ultra wide boards?
The guy with the NP foil uses the NP foil board. It's like a normal 125 liter slalom board, normal width for 125 liter board. I've been told narrow boards are tricky simply because splash downs are more likely to cause a catapult.

My board was 73 wide. Never went over the bars on a splash down.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: yugi on July 05, 2017, 11:24:20 AM
My take on kiting versus windsurf foiling....

When I windsurf foiled, the upwind angles were nothing special. The ability to glide through big holes in the wind was disappointing.

After trying kite foiling, I'm totally addicting to kiting again after having become bore by it. The upwind angles are insane. The thrilling speed. The ability to take long distance cruises for miles. Amazing.

That's actually part of my worry... at least for here locally. When the wind drops I'd be so screwed. Winds are fickle here.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Admin on July 05, 2017, 11:26:15 AM
For windsurf foiling are your friends all using the ultra wide boards?
The guy with the NP foil uses the NP foil board. It's like a normal 125 liter slalom board, normal width for 125 liter board. I've been told narrow boards are tricky simply because splash downs are more likely to cause a catapult.

My board was 73 wide. Never went over the bars on a splash down.

Hah!  I was using the 150 below.  86 wide (!)  seemed much bigger than i needed.  Probably would have been stable for uphauling but I didn't try that. 

(https://isthmussailboards.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/650x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/s/s/ss187111_2.jpg)
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 05, 2017, 11:41:51 AM
I think it's important to point out that the Naish foil for windsurfing is for light winds.

The video he posted on Facebook has a question regarding high wind performance;

 Have you tested in more extreme conditions? Could you handle 25knots + and waves??
6 · June 7 at 7:34pm
Robby Naish
Robby Naish You can, but to me, at least at this stage, it kind of defeats the purpose. If you can plane and go fast and jump on a normal board you don't really need a foil. But you certainly can go. Foils would be different designs for strong winds... optimized for higher speeds etc. But you will have amazing crashes and likely break lots of stuff too !!
81 · June 7 at 8:40pm

So like everything else one size does not fit all.

Aloha John,
I told a couple of guys at the lake the same thing the other day...
For me, (and, apparently Robby) windfoiling it's a light wind sport...

I've had several sessions in solid 4.7m2/5.0m2 windsurfing wind...full white knucklers...if you can be fully powered up on normal windsurf gear, I personally don't need the high speed crashes, or loops on a foil, that break and stress gear and bodies...heck, I can get big air and loop on purpose with regular windsurf gear...and, sometimes break gear and body parts...;-)

In fact, I wear a brain bucket most of the time...and, sometimes an impact vest...a good idea would be to wear them all of the time...;-)

After my first few sessions rigging ~ .5m2 less than normal windsurfing...I try to rig a little under-powered now...~ 1m2...so that I have to pump onto a plane...this is for medium winds...my AOA are still quite high...in fact, I have to fight to keep from going to high because then you are faced with going downwind on the foil fully sheeted out...which can provide a little too much excitement at times...;-)

My Hammer has worked great for both windfoiling and SUPfoiling...fast rocker line...nice nose lift...stable outline...etc...I'll probably build a smaller one at some point...but, I'm already starting to work on converting one of my shorter 7'6" Mallet designs for windfoiling...

http://blog.surfingsports.com/2015/01/mallet-sup-2.html

We just built a custom Hammer convertible sport board for Eric up in Minnesota and he had his first windfoil sesh yesterday...totally stoked!

http://blog.surfingsports.com/2017/06/minnesota-eric-stoked-life.html

Happy 4th all!

Got the Hammer to finally fly with 6.2 Charge and NO WHITECAPS – holy crap.
Just wanted for little puffs with texture, point off wind and PUMP with body and sail until you start to hear the “hummmmm” then LIFTOFF – Game changing!

I got numerous flight that seemed to last forever but when they were over I wanted MORE 😉
I suspect they were a few hundred yards each fully flying. I was able to adjust my feet a bit and play with the sail trim, sheeting has a big affect on attitude (climb,dive) as well as foot pressure.

I found a spot that worked for me was my back foot in surf stance just in front of front mast bolt with toes a bit outboard and front foot variable but left of centerline for sure. Got a Surface white nose guard on yesterday but no crashes, All landings were beautifully sweet even with a foil breach, just plopped me back down tail first and I sailed away with boom still in hand. Learning so much so quickly, the mind will have to catch up to the body but I think having a few flights on a Slingshot Alien Air and 15 inch mast Hover Glide was VERY helpful so I knew what the feeling would be like, just WAY different controlling pitch with the rig rather than the sail.

I wouldn’t say really harder, just different. Heading back out to the spot again today, wind is suppose to be about 10-15 tops. I can almost guarantee a fun session in these conditions with the 6.2, Hammer ArmyKnife and Maliko Go Foil Thanks Everyone for helping fuel my stoke! and Deb, I briefly mentioned you in my other email.

I’ve been a big fan of yours over the years in all the pictures Wardog posts of your sailing, surfing and paddling adventures!

Eric from Minnesota
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 05, 2017, 11:45:43 AM
My take on kiting versus windsurf foiling....

When I windsurf foiled, the upwind angles were nothing special. The ability to glide through big holes in the wind was disappointing.

After trying kite foiling, I'm totally addicting to kiting again after having become bore by it. The upwind angles are insane. The thrilling speed. The ability to take long distance cruises for miles. Amazing.

That's actually part of my worry... at least for here locally. When the wind drops I'd be so screwed. Winds are fickle here.

A foil is basically the biggest fin in the world...you have to try to not go to weather...
I always have gone out windfoiling on a board with enough volume to uphaul...even though it's not necessary...and, sometimes encumbering, when flying the foil...difference between sailing back or swimming...;-)
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 05, 2017, 02:25:28 PM
Admin,

Sorry, got my dimensions wrong.  Just checked my board.  It was 214 x 79 127 liters. It was modeled after the Horue. Short to reduce any weathervane and wide nose for splash downs. 

Yugi,

Your worries are non issue.  Where windsurf foiling beats kite foiling is winds so light it can die.  Windsurfer always has ability to limp home.  Kite falls and won't relaunch and you're done.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Beasho on July 06, 2017, 06:57:33 AM
I attempted to modify two older windsurfers for foil surfing.

They both had Tuttle boxes.  I have learned that the concept of deep and shallow Tuttle boxes maybe a newer concept.

Yes in old days the fins were all shallow but the boxes could run shallow or deep.  Of my 3 windsurfers my shortboard accomodated the Go-Foil without any modifications.  The Clam Sandwich (2nd Photo) only required cutting through 1/8" skin layer on the top of half the box.

The Hi Per Tech was much more involved.  It had a nearly bomb proof 1/4" 'something' (divinycell epoxy combo) that I had to cut nearly the full length of the box with a jigsaw.

Long story short I got the darn Go-Foil to fit. 
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Beasho on July 06, 2017, 07:04:12 AM
The sad report is that IT DIDN'T WORK.

My first attempt was on the Clam Sandwich.  Light air, and a sinking board - NO DICE.

The second attempt was in more air 15 - 25 on the Hi Per tech.  Plenty of wind.  BUT I couldn't get the foil to fly.

Only when going over sizable chop, ~ 2 feet, would the foil partially engage and not let me drop down the back of the wave.

I am convinced that the box placement is too far AFT to allow me to unweight the front of the board.  The combination of rear placement and weight of Sail and Board forward left me trying to fly by doing wheelies from my rear pinky toe. 

3 Options:

None of these are ideal.  The least complex might be get a 2 bolt Chinook mast base and install on Hi Per tech. 

PS:  The Slingshot 125 looked pretty nice but it's $2,000 for a gamble.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 06, 2017, 07:24:46 AM
Beasho, my suggestion is you should get junk windsurf board you can uphaul. You absolutely need to be able to uphaul. Then place a Tuttle box forward.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Admin on July 06, 2017, 08:46:58 AM
The 105 Slingshot looks pretty nice.  5'10.  105 is still plenty to dry uphaul and  limp home on.  Wonder if anyone demos this stuff :).
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUPladomi on July 06, 2017, 08:53:51 AM
I'm having difficulty getting my head around foil mast placement. It seems that all the racers at the PWA foil event in Japan were running basically as far aft as possible.
(https://s21.postimg.org/b6jnyksnb/PWA_foil_Japan_2.jpg)
And why wouldn't you do the same for SUP board? You hear so much about front foot pressure. It seems like the easy way to balance things out is to move the mast aft.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: starman on July 06, 2017, 10:02:23 AM
Apples and Oranges would be my uneducated guess. Like Wardog mentioned, the foil on a sailboard is just a bigger fin. When powered up on those boards you are basically transferring all that drive from the sail to the foil with your back foot. Pretty much like you would with a big racing fin.

The SUP foil is getting most or all of it's drive from wave energy, there is no other external power source (other then "pumping" the board). So I would think the foil placement and design is quite a bit different.

Here is the link to the HyperNut foil board: http://star-board-sup.com/2017/board/74-x-30-hyper-nut-foil-board/

Then there is the Slingshot windsurfing foil board:  http://www.slingshotsports.com/Dialer-145-Foil-Board#.WV5s34qQz64

Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 06, 2017, 10:06:42 AM
I'm having difficulty getting my head around foil mast placement. It seems that all the racers at the PWA foil event in Japan were running basically as far aft as possible.

What I discovered last summer foiling...

Mast in normal location felt best when learning.

The better I got, the more responsive I wanted everything.  Eventually I was building boards with mast tracks 5" farther back than normal
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: yugi on July 06, 2017, 10:12:43 AM
.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Beasho on July 06, 2017, 11:20:18 AM
Mast in normal location felt best when learning.

The better I got, the more responsive I wanted everything.  Eventually I was building boards with mast tracks 5" farther back than normal

On the Hi Per Tech there was almost NO Chance of getting the foil to fly with the mast in the normal position.  Plenty of wind and I could hear the foil humming.  But the 9' Hi Per Tech was ideally suited to a 6.5 Meter sail aka BIG.  This meant a forward track allowing for enough rake to get the Center of Lift of the sail to align above the Center of Resistance which was typically directly between the rear footstraps, if not slighly closer to the rear foot.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Beasho on July 06, 2017, 11:20:58 AM
The video is compelling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-FuNGg_QR8
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 06, 2017, 12:45:07 PM
Going by memory my fast foot was 120-125 cm from tail

Somebody should measure estimated center of lift point on front wing to center of mast on Slingshot windsurf foil. Post here. Beasho could take that and guess how much to move Tuttle forward.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 06, 2017, 12:56:35 PM
Just measured my buddies NP foil. 10" center of lift front wing to center of mast. It feels like half the weight of SS foil
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUPladomi on July 06, 2017, 04:32:01 PM
I'm having difficulty getting my head around foil mast placement. It seems that all the racers at the PWA foil event in Japan were running basically as far aft as possible.

What I discovered last summer foiling...

Mast in normal location felt best when learning.

The better I got, the more responsive I wanted everything.  Eventually I was building boards with mast tracks 5" farther back than normal

I just want to be clear that we are talking about the same thing. I was referring to the placement of the Tuttle box for the mast of the foil. I believe you are talking about the mast track position of the sail.

Unless I misunderstood, one of Beasho's options was to move the Tuttle box forward. This seems counter to the setups of all the windfoilers in the picture I posted and as you can see here.
(https://s16.postimg.org/8ei2cjd1x/JP17_fs_foil.jpg)

I have a very limited grasp of physics but the big question for me is why would a SUP and windfoil have different mast (of the foil) placement anyway? Starman made an attempt to address it but I'm still stuck on the lift.

It seems from what I've read that generating lift is the easy part (apparently not in Beasho's case at the moment) by just weighting the back foot. It appears that you counteract this by really weighting the front foot. To my not very complex mind, with the mast (of the foil) in a more aft position, you are balancing all the lift generated with your body weight being forward of the mast. What am I missing?

Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 06, 2017, 06:31:12 PM
Quote
...why would a SUP and windfoil have different mast (of the foil) placement anyway?

Windsurfers are stuck with existing Tuttle box placements.....so foil has to be designed around this handicap.  Meaning it needs an extra long fuselage to place the lifting wing forward enough.

While any other board, surf, SUP, kite is not limited by a pre-existing Tuttle box, so those foils can be designed with a short, design efficient fuselage. The Tuttle boxes moved up.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: peterwSUPr on July 06, 2017, 06:41:01 PM
Yes, I was just about to say the same thing.  The fuselage has to be strong if it is long to the front wing, so there has been a move to have the front wing quite close to and sometimes overlapping the front of the mast.  It's hard to know from photos where the wing actually is.  It's the wing position relative to the feet which is most important in terms of lift and balance. 

Another name for the "mast" is the "strut".  It is a less common name and yet it probably is more technically correct.  Especially with windfoils, the term strut is much less confusing.  I was having trouble figuring out which mast we were talking about at times.

Peter
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 07, 2017, 10:01:25 AM
I'm having difficulty getting my head around foil mast placement. It seems that all the racers at the PWA foil event in Japan were running basically as far aft as possible.
(https://s21.postimg.org/b6jnyksnb/PWA_foil_Japan_2.jpg)
And why wouldn't you do the same for SUP board? You hear so much about front foot pressure. It seems like the easy way to balance things out is to move the mast aft.

Aloha SUPladomi,
You have to understand that there are basically two branches of windfoiling developing now...high performance racing with advanced foils...solid with up to 70 layers of carbon...attached to Formula-like boards and sails...and, recreational windfoiling with tuned down foils (aluminum and carbon...or, carbon/hybrid) being retrofitted to existing sailboards...using existing sail rigs...as well as purpose built gear now being developed... and, also crossover multi-sport SUPs...etc...

The companies interested in windfoil racing are manufacturing boards specifically for that...not retrofitting existing boards for windfoiling to appeal to a broader range of sailors...so, it's an arm's race at the top of the high performance heap...and, it seems like the Europeans are leading the way in that arena because there is an active racing scene there...etc...

They do place the mast of the foil aft because they have experience from Formula with very flat tail rockers...etc...it is faster and they have more leverage over the foil...wide tailed boards are important here because they allow you the leverage over the foil to fly the board level or very slightly dip the windward rail...dipping the leeward rail while flying with sail pressure present is not recommended unless you like to be body slammed...;-)

Wider tailed windfoilng boards with foils placed aft are also less reactive...small adjustments in foot or sail pressure don't get transferred to the foil as quickly or as sharply...touch downs in windfoil racing are like spinouts in regular windsurfing...racers that have the skill to jibe with the foil without touching down, usually differentiate themselves on the podium with better results...
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUPladomi on July 07, 2017, 04:21:18 PM
Windsurfers are stuck with existing Tuttle box placements.....so foil has to be designed around this handicap. 
Here are some of the new dedicated foil boards being produced by manufacturers. They are designed to initiate beginning foilers and have some performance.  All seem to have the mast as far aft as possible. I guess we'll see where all this is at in a couple years.
(https://isthmussailboards.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/650x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/j/p/jp18hf_1.jpg)(http://www.star-board-windsurfing.com/wp2/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017_Foil147_ReflexCarbon.png)(https://isthmussailboards.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/650x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/h/r/hr17vini3dtiny.jpg)
(https://isthmussailboards.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/650x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/s/s/ss187121_2.jpg)
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 07, 2017, 05:45:15 PM
The Tuttle will always be in the rear on a windsurfer.  It enables manufacturers to sell more dual use boards. 
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUPladomi on July 07, 2017, 07:44:36 PM
The Tuttle will always be in the rear on a windsurfer.  It enables manufacturers to sell more dual use boards.
If I understood Wardog correctly:
"The companies interested in windfoil racing are manufacturing boards specifically for that...not retrofitting existing boards for windfoiling to appeal to a broader range of sailors" and "They do place the mast of the foil aft because they have experience from Formula with very flat tail rockers...etc...it is faster and they have more leverage over the foil". This makes sense to me as the photo I posted is from a PWA race.

You said "Windsurfers are stuck with existing Tuttle box placements.....so foil has to be designed around this handicap." Racers want to win. They do not want to be handicapped in anyway. I can't believe PWA racers are just sticking foils in existing slalom boards and compromising their performance.

I guess I just can't be convinced so my last point will be the original video that was posted. At the 0'20" mark you will see the mast being placed all the way forward for SUP foiling. At the 2'30" mark you will see the mast being placed all the way aft for wind foiling.
https://vimeo.com/217072049 (https://vimeo.com/217072049)

Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: jondrums on July 08, 2017, 12:00:07 AM
I'm looking at that Neil Pryde aluminum foil - does anyone think it could work for SUP surfing if I cut down the length of the mast?
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 08, 2017, 04:03:39 AM
If I understood Wardog correctly:
"The companies interested in windfoil racing are manufacturing boards specifically for that...not retrofitting existing boards for windfoiling to appeal to a broader range of sailors"

Not what I'm seeing. Francisco Goya himself, told me last year at Surf Expo, he'd be switching is manufacturing to foil rated Tuttle box installations.  For 2018 RRD is advertising there Tuttle boxes are foil rated.  We're seeing foil rated stickers on Tuttle boxes.

My friend who went to the adventure sports dealer show in the Bahamas tried the NP Pryde Foil/Slalom board and JP Foil boards.  The JPs are the class board designed pure foiling, not universal windsurf slalom and foil.  He thought the JPs were turds. He's riding the NP foil board right now at my home spot. So the normal board appealed to him more. He felt it got going earlier and got the foil up sooner. Now he might feel different if he ever becomes a great foiler, but it's interesting a beginner liked a normal dual use design more.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 08, 2017, 04:14:30 AM
I'm looking at that Neil Pryde aluminum foil - does anyone think it could work for SUP surfing if I cut down the length of the mast?

I would say yes, if you're an expert.

I have two friends who prone foil surf the Slingshot windsurf foil. But these guys are truly expert foilers.  They both plan to switch the wings out to the surf one when they become available.

But, it's still a guess. Comparing the look of the slingshot and NP windsurf wings, the NP is more slender, thinner, and high aspect. So it looks like it would have less low speed lift.
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: jondrums on July 08, 2017, 09:15:44 AM
Comparing the look of the slingshot and NP windsurf wings, the NP is more slender, thinner, and high aspect. So it looks like it would have less low speed lift.

yes, I agree.  For the low cost, it almost makes sense to me to get it and make a new front wing for it with a sander.  It would be a significant development project, but fun
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 08, 2017, 09:51:09 AM
Personally, I'm more interested in designing and developing multi-sport convertible boards that can SUP...windSUP...windfoil...surf SUP foil...etc...more bang for the buck...less gear to carry...I'm stoked that my Hammer design has successfully accomplished this...

http://supsports.com/standup-paddle-boards/hammer-series/

...but, I knew back in 2014 when I developed the Mallet design, that it could also be adapted for cross-over use...and, that is how I'm approaching my current project of adapting it with a Deep Tuttle box and mast track...

There are several 2018 windfoil models coming out from various manufacturers that share the Mallet's plan shape...dims...volume distribution...etc...but, fin box selection and placement limit their cross-over use...the new board developed for long time kite and kitefoil company Zeeko is an example...but, the F-ONE with a similar shape, looks more versatile...etc...

The Mallet is a really fun short and compact surfSUP that you can really leverage turns on...it's fast...even faster rocker than the Hammer... and, it can be nose ridden...etc...so, until double Tuttle boxes...adjustable Tuttle boxes...and, fin adapters...etc...are developed, I'm going to place the foil box forward of a US box...which is more optimum for surf foiling with my GoFoil...and, has worked well for light air windfoiling...

https://youtu.be/VhVpfRN635w

http://blog.surfingsports.com/2015/01/mallet-sup-2.html

Bruno André, (AHD) who has been windfoiling for years...has the Tuttle box forward of their rear foot straps on their newest dedicated slalom windfoil board ...a fair distance from the tail...so, far aft placement is not a deal breaker...but, other manufacturers making dedicated windfoil boards tend to place the foil box far aft...

One thing is definitely sure...revisit this thread in a year and things will look a bit different...;-)



Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 08, 2017, 10:20:05 AM
Look who is doing exactly what Beasho wants to do

http://mauisurfreport.blogspot.com/2017/07/wednesday-7-5-17-morning-call.html
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 08, 2017, 11:19:01 AM
Look who is doing exactly what Beasho wants to do

http://mauisurfreport.blogspot.com/2017/07/wednesday-7-5-17-morning-call.html

Not sure what Beasho wants to do exactly...but, you can't compare trying to windfoil on his narrow tailed sailboards to the SB Hypersonic 133, or iSonic 135, that Cammar has added an extra deep Tuttle box to...Cammar said "Hypersonic 135"...so there may be a little confusion as to which board it is exactly...

As a Starboard windsurf dealer, I was one of the first to receive the Hypersonics back in 2002 when they came out...also, the iSonics when they came out a few years later...
The Hypersonics have been popular boards to start windfoiling with because they were so heavily discounted...very technical and unforgiving sailboards...probably a few out there still in wrappers...;-)

Regardless, wide tail sections give you leverage over the fin/foil and maximizes stability...let alone the fact that he should be able to easily uphaul on an 130 liter board...;-)

As far as windfoiling on a Kai GoFoil...that's no problem...I proved that to myself 3 weeks ago...

Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 14, 2017, 11:06:39 AM
Got a cool shot from Eric in Minnesota windfoiling at his local lake on the Hammer multi-sport convertible SUP that we just built for him...with GoFoil Maliko foil...

http://blog.surfingsports.com/2017/06/minnesota-eric-stoked-life.html

I also had some great runs at my local lake yesterday...lots of fine tuning adds to the understanding of all of the dynamics involved in windfoiling...used a 5.0m2 sail and could have been on a 4.7m2 at times...

I would normally have been on a 6.2m2 or 6.8m2 if I was just regular windsurfing...
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: starman on July 14, 2017, 02:17:10 PM
You can add MFC to the growing list of foils;

Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 16, 2017, 01:12:04 PM
That's KP...Kevin Pritchard...wave world champion...Starboard team rider...but, also works with MFC on fin design...
Next time I see him I'll ask him how it stacks up against the SB foils...
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 19, 2017, 08:03:11 PM
Really stoked on the 7'6" Mallet convertible multi sport SUP...can't wait to get it flying with the foil...

http://blog.surfingsports.com/2015/01/mallet-sup-2.html

Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 19, 2017, 08:08:10 PM
Our friend Eric up in Minnesota has been having lots of fun on the Hammer windfoil SUP that we built for him...

WD, sharing the stoke of flying the Hammer under sail - had another great session Saturday but it kind of spoiled my for kite foil session yesterday where I got my ass kicked.
I think I like flying the Hammer better! The Hammer does it all!


Cool vid clip with drone footage...

https://vimeo.com/225352752

Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 21, 2017, 06:11:46 PM
Just spent a couple of days of windfoiling at the lake on the 7'6" Mallet...it's a keeper...

The 7'6" Mallet with the Kai GoFoil worked really well in the challenging conditions...felt really balanced in high winds with a 4.7m2 sail...could have been on a 4.2m2...fun part of the learning curve...more progression with every session...
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: peterwSUPr on June 01, 2018, 04:08:00 AM
Hi I thought I would revive an old thread here to ask a question.  I'm trying to get some feedback on the setup I see here where the foil mounts to the windsurf board in a more forward position, as opposed to at the very back of the board in the windsurfer fin location. 

I expect that the forward mount that I have seen here has a bit more of a pivoty feel.  But I also note that Naish makes a crossover for SUP and windfoiling which has this more forward mount, with a shorter front fuselage used on the actual foil.  On the other hand, the vast majority of windfoils use a rear mount location.  I expect that gives a more traditional feel, but it seems that the forces on the finbox and on the front of the fuselage must be much higher. 

Structurally it seems that the forward mount makes sense, but for a windsurf type feel, I can't help but to think that the more rearward mount would feel better.  Does anyone have any firsthand experience with that?

Thanks,
Peter
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUP Sports ® on June 01, 2018, 09:59:55 AM
All depends if you only want to use the board to go back & forth with a sail on it...and, be more in a locked in position over the tail...or, if you want to use it for a multi-sport crossover experience...SUP...surf SUP...windSUP...windfoil...surf SUP foil...etc...

I prefer to have the options that my Mallet and Hammer designs offer...
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: peterwSUPr on June 02, 2018, 03:38:26 AM
Thanks for the reply.  Other than having the option for more sports, would you say there is a drastically different feel, or is it only a slightly different feel?  I assume from the pictures of the Horue foil that you have also ridden a more traditional windsurf setup(?)

Thanks,
Peter
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on June 02, 2018, 04:56:28 AM
It’s how the foil under the board was designed that dictates where it works best under the board.

The latest trend is to use SURF foils under windsurf boards. These surf foils, GoFoil, Naish, etc. are capable of lifting at much lower speeds.

Windsurf foils are designed with extra long fuselages to put the front wing in the right spot, between your legs. Surf foils do not have these extra long fuselages, so they need to be mounted forward.

All these details favor track mounts in my opinion. Getting the foil in the right spot for you, or your foot straps, is much easier.

GoFoil has a windsurf specific fuselage in development. So plug and play may be coming for regular windsurf boards.

Naish has a new quick disconnect track mount that makes Tuttle mounts obsolete in my opinion. I’m sure more quick connect plate mounts are coming from many brands.

This is a surf wing mounted forward.
https://instagram.com/p/BjaskfeA_J0/
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: SUP Sports ® on June 02, 2018, 08:40:20 AM
Thanks for the reply.  Other than having the option for more sports, would you say there is a drastically different feel, or is it only a slightly different feel?  I assume from the pictures of the Horue foil that you have also ridden a more traditional windsurf setup(?)

Thanks,
Peter

Aloha Peter,
Once you are on foil, the feeling of flying is going to be similar...but, handling and technique...etc...are going to be different...

https://youtu.be/C1dDH9awlvg

I didn't like being locked into the foot straps with the Horue/Exocet...and, have since added NSI Foot Hookers to my Mallet...

We have built a number of boards with Deep Tuttle foil boxes...but, also use the twin track system...which as DW said gives you some adjustability to dial in to your equipment and conditions...
Title: Re: Windfoiling
Post by: peterwSUPr on June 03, 2018, 04:28:59 AM
Thanks for the replies.  I ask because I am building a foil for windsurfing, and it would be nice if it was the surf style short front fuselage setup so that it would also be more like what you would use on a SUP, and also could be used as a larger slower kite foil (I already built one for kiting last year).  Mine will get used mostly for windsurfing based on the flatwater where I live, but it would be nice to keep options open for a more versatile setup as long as I don't give up too much in the windsurfing department.  As for the video Dwight posted, Casey is in my part of the country and I know someone who I think knows him so hopefully I can pick his brain too.  I need to decide soon, it's time to start putting a hole in the fuselage where the mast is going to go!

Peter
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