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The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: Weasels wake on June 26, 2017, 12:00:09 PM

Title: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: Weasels wake on June 26, 2017, 12:00:09 PM
Here's a pic posted by Sam Pa'e, pumping or hitting the bottom or both? Not sure, but the weak spot became evident.
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: container on June 26, 2017, 12:34:36 PM
i always thought the tuttle boxes were put in far too lightly
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: clay on June 26, 2017, 12:51:54 PM
Bummer! I imagine when it happened it was quite unnerving.

Wondering if a stringer would have held it in place? And then would the foil crack, or the board snap in half?  I suspect I would prefer the tuttle pop out then the latter two...
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: Weasels wake on June 26, 2017, 01:02:58 PM
A Power Plate would also be another good solution.  They are available at Windance at the Gorge (I'm not affiliated).
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: Beasho on June 27, 2017, 06:18:09 AM
Looks like a Blue Planet board. Maybe Robert can chime in  ???

I hit the reef the other day (read ROCK BOTTOM in California) and went flying.  I thought I would have ripped off a wing from my GoFoil, or cracked the box, but escaped with a scuff to the tip and a few scratches.  Really impressive.

I'm sure anything can happen but the Tuttle Box installed Deck to Deck is pretty bomb proof.  Then again Sam is a bigger guy. 

I surf with Haley Fiske.  He installed the box himself, and weighs 230 lbs.  He breaks everything so we'll see how his Tuttle / GoFoil holds up.
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: supuk on June 27, 2017, 06:42:58 AM
really it wants the glass to go down and around the tuttle box and then lap onto to the bottom of the board to cradle the box so the glass that is holding it in is working in tenshion. Just glassing over the flat surface of the box is pretty dumb thing do do and expect it to hold the weight of a rider jumping up and down. All you are relying on is the foam and about .7mm of glass with a shear force acting against it.
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: PonoBill on June 27, 2017, 09:21:56 AM
Yeah, he used a cassette of foam but didn't glass under it from the looks of the thing. I don't think Sam's box will be the last to fail, though probably the most dramatic. I expect a lof of them will leak. Knowing Sam, I bet he's still laughing about this. He's an extremely good and innovative homebrew builder--I doubt this will ever happen to him again. He'll figure it out.

I like plates.
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: TallDude on June 27, 2017, 10:16:03 AM
I just ran into a friend of mine at our local glassing supply store. He's been getting into foiling, and has his mounted on a twin long box mount. He's a big guy and said his board keeps leaking around the fin boxes. I was telling about some of the discussion here, and about the forces being applied at the box are far beyond what just a typical long fin box and 1# foam can handle. He was going to buy some 6oz glass and put a few more layers around the boxes. After we talked, he realized how futile it was. He's getting the big GoFoil with the tuttle mount. I recommended the HD foam and a full glass under with a bond through to the deck.
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: surfcowboy on June 27, 2017, 07:24:54 PM
Tall Dude, I even thought  of laminating in a plywood plate to the bottom of my board. I agree that the two boxes won't work alone over time.

However, if you consider the HD foam cassette that UK did, you could route out the big hole for that, glass from the skin down through the box and then sandwich the box in by glassing over it. I'll bet that would hold and not leak.

Charlie, what's the size of your HD foam insert for the plate mounts? What do you think of my overkill install idea here?
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: PonoBill on June 27, 2017, 10:15:50 PM
Talldude, a deep Tuttle has perhaps one-third of the strength of two long mast boxes with carbon under them and carbon over them. If he just sunk them through the deck and put a patch layer over then maybe, but even that has more strength than a Tuttle.
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: supuk on June 28, 2017, 12:44:42 AM
Tall Dude, I even thought  of laminating in a plywood plate to the bottom of my board. I agree that the two boxes won't work alone over time.

However, if you consider the HD foam cassette that UK did, you could route out the big hole for that, glass from the skin down through the box and then sandwich the box in by glassing over it. I'll bet that would hold and not leak.

Charlie, what's the size of your HD foam insert for the plate mounts? What do you think of my overkill install idea here?

365mm x 205mm x 35 when I have cut another batch I will see if I can send you one if you like. If you glass under and around it will probably be over kill but no harm. The benefit of the plate design is its spread over such a large area and with the hd insert that is increased further. 
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: surfcowboy on June 28, 2017, 01:02:57 AM
Let me know man, I'm about to order a Clearwater kit to start messing around til you guys sort out "the good wings" ;)
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: supuk on June 28, 2017, 01:38:21 AM
Let me know man, I'm about to order a Clearwater kit to start messing around til you guys sort out "the good wings" ;)

I really don't see the point in those kits just get a bunch of timber and sand away, by the looks you will want to go for a thicker profile any way. Some good quality birch ply would be far better if you want to go diy, I can give you the rough dimensions of what I have here if that helps.
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: dingfix on June 28, 2017, 10:47:07 AM
Hi supuk, we've been having pretty-much the same conversation by PM.

The appeal of the Clearwater kit is for those of us who don't have your skills or equipment.   I have the skills to assemble/glass a kit, but not to make one from scratch.

Having said that if you do provide detailed dimensions, a view of foil shape etc etc I will have to go.  Else it's the Clearwater route which after including International shipping and UK Customs won't be as cheap as I'd like.

thanks.
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: supuk on June 28, 2017, 11:10:19 AM
work on a 24" span front wing with about 12" cord at the center and about a foil that is 1 1/2 thick. Take a look at the clark Y profile and use that as a basis to and the profile. If you use ply it will help you get the contours correct. The mast is very simple just 12mm ply 5" cord and take a look at the naca foils to shape a basic symmetrical foil/

Its not hard to make something that will lift, he shows this in his videos with how he has made it so basic.  Its never going to be a precision thing but it will be as good as that kit and will save the cost of shipping a few bits of pallet wood half way around the world.

Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: SUP Sports ® on June 30, 2017, 09:56:01 AM
Here's a pic posted by Sam Pa'e, pumping or hitting the bottom or both? Not sure, but the weak spot became evident.

FWIW, Sam's foil looks pretty sun baked judging from the wings that have turned from bright red to dull UV pink...if continued, the structural integrity will be compromised...
I keep all of my toys out of the sun as much as possible...especially, expensive carbon toys...;-)

So far the deep Tuttle installation on my Hammer has held up great...
The forces  are far greater with the longer mast of the Horue wind foil and sail rig on a lake than with the GoFoil and a paddle on a wave...
I was a little concerned about the GoFoil holding up to the forces of the sail rig when I strapped it on and gave it a go...but, it held up fine...
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: SUP Committed on June 30, 2017, 05:04:22 PM
Hey guys how you guys doing I hope everybody's doing well and we'll have a great weekend happy Fourth of July to all. So I have been going through this thread and I have read through it. I would like to clarify a few things first off yes this was an equipment failure that was done on my behalf. Basically what happened was I laid carbon fiber on the bottom make some epoxy and fill the sides and the bottom and the top mixed with aerocell. In the process of it going off I guess the boys was a little bigger than anticipated which heated up the epoxy which caused a cavity alongside the walls all the tuttle box. I have been surfing with this board for at least 4 months with no indication of failure. So I had no pre-warning that any of this would have happened. Just bear with me that this has been my first tuttle box installation and the only way to learn from it if stuff like this was to happen. Let me clarify that although I am a team writer for Blue Planet Blue Planet had nothing to do with the installation of the box. They also have no association with the board that I'm using this boy was made 10 years ago by me and all I did was add stickers. I have talked with Alex Agera and he explained to me what happened and why it failed basically I did not glass the top of the box I rely upon the existing glass to be part of my structure. Had I went through the board I would have seen the cavities realize that the structure was not sound. Alexandra has a YouTube video showing how to install those boxes. I have learn from this mistake and I will rebuild this board. Also last but not least per the last thread of war dogs comet just to clarify it's not faded it's painted pink my signature colors. I hope this clarifies a lot and thank you very much for your injuries comments and suggestions. Aloha
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: SUP Sports ® on June 30, 2017, 06:04:19 PM
Aloha Sam,
Good to know that you painted that foil pink and it wasn't UV damage...it looked ridden hard and put away wet...;-)
It's really great that the GoFoils come with nice covers...value added...

I've seen a number of DIY foil attachment nightmares already...so, I'm sold on the deep Tuttle attachment....
Gorilla Glue is great at filling voids...etc...and, definitely best for these boxes to be attached to the skin on both top and bottom...

My admonition to minimize UV exposure and nicks/scratches on carbon parts still stands...
I've seen/heard 100% carbon windsurf masts explode under tension in the hot sun...and, have had scores of carbon booms, masts, and extensions fail in less than desirable circumstances far offshore in big waves...anything that you can do to minimize or mitigate sun/heat exposure is good...

My red Brewer gun from the 70s is still red...
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: SUP Committed on June 30, 2017, 06:29:40 PM
Great to hear from you Wardog. Not sure if you remember but I think we met one time on Maui with Bill foot at his place in haiku.. I think Gorilla Glue is the way to go I'm going to try it
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: SUP Committed on June 30, 2017, 06:36:44 PM
This is how a Tuttle box should be installed. Alex Aguera and the gang at Go Foil are the best in the business.

Here's the link
https://youtu.be/i7PfoZW_Ivo
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: SUP Committed on June 30, 2017, 06:43:13 PM
Where can I get one of theses?

https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=32020.0;attach=85959;image
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: surfcowboy on June 30, 2017, 08:06:58 PM
Sam, good to have you on here and trust me, most of us are from the "try it and see" school.

Good of you to clarify that that wasn't one of Roberts boards or installs but that epoxy heat gets a lot of us at least once.

Thanks for the videos and sharing your knowledge and for leading the way on these things. I still use a handle like you started doing on every board of mine. Saved me a lot of trouble for sure.
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: SUP Committed on June 30, 2017, 09:45:05 PM
Sam, good to have you on here and trust me, most of us are from the "try it and see" school.

Good of you to clarify that that wasn't one of Roberts boards or installs but that epoxy heat gets a lot of us at least once.

Thanks for the videos and sharing your knowledge and for leading the way on these things. I still use a handle like you started doing on every board of mine. Saved me a lot of trouble for sure.

Mahalo Braddah.....I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea of products. You know very well I come from the back yard era board building. I'll try and if I fail it will only make a strong learner. I still use tail handles till this day.

Aloha.....Sam
Title: Re: Tuttle box only? Consider deck reinforcement
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 01, 2017, 08:19:35 AM
Great to hear from you Wardog. Not sure if you remember but I think we met one time on Maui with Bill foot at his place in haiku.. I think Gorilla Glue is the way to go I'm going to try it

Aloha Sam,
Great to hear from you too...I've been following your GoFoil SUP surfing experiences...
I have had more time on my wind foil...but, am always looking for places to get a sesh on my GoFoil...

I totally remember meeting you at Bill Foote's casa...that was 10 years ago...lots of fun and excitement talking about board designs...etc...and, how the sport of standup was starting to really take off...I also remember those yummy deviled eggs that Bill's ex-wifey, Sandy, made for that party...;-)
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