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General Category => Flatwater and Touring => Topic started by: SG50SUP on May 16, 2017, 05:14:51 AM

Title: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: SG50SUP on May 16, 2017, 05:14:51 AM
They have launched their 2 flagship flatwater boards.

Signature race 14 x 23" and 14x 24.75
Stripe V2 and Matchbox paintjob. Real eye candy.


What do you think?

http://www.light-sup.com/light-signature-race.html
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: PonoBill on May 16, 2017, 07:17:40 AM
Nice design. Obviously English is not the first language of whoever wrote the website. They'd be wise to hire an editor. Other than that nit, the site says Light, light, light and then only specifies "under 10kg", which is certainly light but not exceptional. I assume the dugout has velocity drainers, otherwise the weight advantage would disappear quickly. Looks like a flatwater contender. I wonder what they are going to think about the market they just entered. Probably a lot smaller and more price sensitive than they expected.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: supnorte on May 16, 2017, 09:35:53 AM
Actually I was talking with Nelo's CEO yesterday at the office (Nelo is really close from our SUP center) and he told me that they were now producing boards for Light Corp. I saw some photos of the board and it lokks really good for flatwater, but I haven't tried it or seen it live.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: LaPerouseBay on May 16, 2017, 10:15:58 AM
Actually I was talking with Nelo's CEO yesterday at the office (Nelo is really close from our SUP center) and he told me that they were now producing boards for Light Corp. I saw some photos of the board and it lokks really good for flatwater, but I haven't tried it or seen it live.

Very cool.  Was that Oscar or Nelo himself?  That company is amazing.  Big factory, amazing technology in those ICF sprint kayaks.  Nelo rules the market.  Spectacular factory in Portugal.  Here's the man himself and his CNC whacking out an 11 meter (36 foot) prototype. 
K4's are faster than the big 6 man rowing sculls.  Amazing boats. 

https://youtu.be/_7WEvQRtPC0?t=2m44s

They did this for an April fool's joke.  Look how tiny these kayaks are.  HM was just asking me about Olympic K-1's.  They are 1000 times more tippy than elite skis.  Olympians in K-1 and sprint canoes (Jim Terrell) are exceptional athletes

https://youtu.be/yZFKNMbPQn4
 
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: LaPerouseBay on May 16, 2017, 10:32:09 AM
/
English is not the first language of whoever wrote the website. They'd be wise to hire an editor.
/

I don't think Nelo cares.  They make incredible skis but don't market them in the USA.  Those boards are probably very light and fast.

https://youtu.be/0dGU82PsI4A
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2017, 10:43:49 AM
They have launched their 2 flagship flatwater boards.

Signature race 14 x 23" and 14x 24.75
Stripe V2 and Matchbox paintjob. Real eye candy.


What do you think?

http://www.light-sup.com/light-signature-race.html

Love it. And 296l for the 24.75 version ? Hello.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: supnorte on May 16, 2017, 01:33:45 PM
It was Andrť Santos. Oscar moved here a while ago and he's been doing amazing downwinds on a surfski (and he broke a few of his personal records). We have an amazing coast for downwinders in Northern Portugal!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on May 16, 2017, 01:36:29 PM
The Signature Race in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqTY_-HJWQk
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2017, 03:19:02 PM
The Signature Race in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqTY_-HJWQk

Primary stability looks low.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: LaPerouseBay on May 16, 2017, 03:55:41 PM

It was Andrť Santos. Oscar moved here a while ago and he's been doing amazing downwinds on a surfski (and he broke a few of his personal records). We have an amazing coast for downwinders in Northern Portugal!


Thanks, Always glad to hear about the big O.  As for breaking personal records, well, that's just plain scary.  The big race is the 30th.  He can do it for the 13th time if the wind is big enough - at age 52.  What a beast.  Fingers crossed he flies in for a clinic while he's here.  He's looking trim!  I hear he's cutting back on the booze!  Legendary party animal.  Crazy big, strong human being.  He was 275 back in the day, now he looks like a skinny teenager.  That's discipline.   

Indeed, Portugal/Spain downwind is freaky powerful.  I love those Tariffa videos.

If Nelo can grab Oscar, they should snag Anabelle Anderson too.  She will tear it up on that new board.   
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2017, 11:49:35 PM
Actually I was talking with Nelo's CEO yesterday at the office (Nelo is really close from our SUP center) and he told me that they were now producing boards for Light Corp. I saw some photos of the board and it lokks really good for flatwater, but I haven't tried it or seen it live.

The problem is they don't seem to be aware of existing market expectations. e.g. there are no details on tail width, images of the bottom, discussion about how stability is provided, drainage or where the volume is distributed.

I raced a board using a similar method of construction back in 2015 which was very fast. (http://horizonsup.com/#farr). I was offered a sponsorship deal but only turned it down as I felt the boards method of construction wouldn't have the day to day robustness I would require. For a 26.5 though it was noted as being silent when moving through the water but struggled a little with cross chop. I wonder if Nelo are also aware of the differences between SUP racing and Canoe/Kayak racing.....
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2017, 12:17:04 AM
The board in that video looks to have too much roll, to me. I'm not sure about the trim either. It looks like a handful. But of course it might equally be the rider.

I'd be interested to see that rider do a buoy turn on that board.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 12:26:31 AM
The board in that video looks to have too much roll, to me. I'm not sure about the trim either. It looks like a handful. But of course it might equally be the rider.

I'd be interested to see that rider do a buoy turn on that board.

If you look on youtube there are three videos that are part of the same sequence of a paddler catching and then passing someone in front (riding a 2017 flatwater Javelin). It was this that like you, raised concerns about the lack of primary stability or as you point out, excessive roll. The problem with Nelo is that they know a lot about construction and a lot about being in a straight line and going fast. However, that's not SUP racing and will be less so as numbers increase and bunch racing becomes more prevalent.

If you look on their website blog page, you'll see more photo's of it in use doing buoy turns, etc.
Title: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: SG50SUP on May 17, 2017, 12:29:10 AM
I wonder if Nelo are also aware of the differences between SUP racing and Canoe/Kayak racing.....
Exactly the point. They'd be introducing the board at the Lost Mills later. Curious if race committee will allow the board into the race / sprint category seeing that its of completely different specs than ordinary sup boards. There's already an argument in ISA / APP on SB's Ace and this would mess it up further in taking sup to the Olympics. The bottom is round. No flat bottom. The rider would be bracing water during the start. And you'd still have problem standing at cruising speed. Sounds familiar?
Would be interesting to hear what Jimmy Terrel have to say about this design. I'm certain he'd be confused. A full circle for him. An evolved standing C1. Now the blades can get bigger. Question lingers.

SUPmission 🤙🏽
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 12:44:48 AM
I wonder if Nelo are also aware of the differences between SUP racing and Canoe/Kayak racing.....
Exactly the point. They'd be introducing the board at the Lost Mills later. Curious if race committee will allow the board into the race / sprint category seeing that its of completely different specs than ordinary sup boards. There's already an argument in ISA / APP on SB's Ace and this would mess it up further in taking sup to the Olympics. The bottom is round. No flat bottom. The rider would be bracing water during the start. And you'd still have problem standing at cruising speed. Sounds familiar?
Would be interesting to hear what Jimmy Terrel have to say about this design. I'm certain he'd be confused. A full circle for him. An evolved standing C1. Now the blades can get bigger. Question lingers.

SUPmission 🤙🏽

That board is fully legal. It doesn't look any more extreme in profile or in width than anything else out there. The construction method is different. I couldn't see whether it had a rounded bottom or not as none of the images are from that angle.

However, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in how the riders are doing with it as both of their team riders are small and former elite world champions/olympian paddlers. Most of us aren't anywhere near that standard and that might be a worry if you see it wobbling around under their own feet.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2017, 12:47:28 AM
Yes. We've been here before. Making a board that is fast in a straight line in flat water is easy. Even I could do it. But making a board that is fast under real world racing conditions, and is also affordable and durable enough is very hard. You HAVE to have feedback from people who actually race, and as we agree, you need to understand how the boards are used. 99.9% of SUP races are not flat water sprints in lanes like sprint canoe.

But we will see, I hope. Maybe I'm wrong. I suspect that the feedback from potential riders will be instant. You'd have to persuade one of the top guys to use this. The general trend these days is towards boards that handle well, draft well, and are adaptable, rather than towards ever increasing specialisation.

Incidentally, that Naish looks a bit too low in the water too, and pretty tippy also. I can see now why you don't often see team riders on one.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on May 17, 2017, 01:24:38 AM
With the board, Peter Weidert has finished third on Lake Caldaro last weekend. He is a team rider for lightboard since this year.
http://www.sup-alps-trophy.com/images/sampledata/alpstrophy/pdf/ErgebnisLong_Short_Distance_SUPAlpsTrophy2017_SUPFestivalKaltererSee_14_Mai.pdf
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 01:26:35 AM
Yes. We've been here before. Making a board that is fast in a straight line in flat water is easy. Even I could do it. But making a board that is fast under real world racing conditions, and is also affordable and durable enough is very hard. You HAVE to have feedback from people who actually race, and as we agree, you need to understand how the boards are used. 99.9% of SUP races are not flat water sprints in lanes like sprint canoe.

But we will see, I hope. Maybe I'm wrong. I suspect that the feedback from potential riders will be instant. You'd have to persuade one of the top guys to use this. The general trend these days is towards boards that handle well, draft well, and are adaptable, rather than towards ever increasing specialisation.

Incidentally, that Naish looks a bit too low in the water too, and pretty tippy also. I can see now why you don't often see team riders on one.

[team ride bias in play here] The Naish is low in volume and profile so always looks deceptively low in the water. The rumours I heard was that pretty much most team riders (including all of us (bar 2) in the UK) have opted for the Maliko for most races as we've found it pretty much nearly as fast as the Javelin but the Maliko is more versatile. Endurance supremo Jo Hamilton Vale I know likes the Javelin 14x24 as the low volume suits her very well. Our other team paddler has been going well on his 14x26 but I personally think it would be a faster board for more paddlers if they added some more volume to the tail.

As for the Nelo, we should know more soon as they are apparently going to have riders on them at the Lost Mills.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2017, 02:16:55 AM
That will be interesting. I hope they do well. New brands tend to bring some new idea or version to the table that we can all learn from.

How many truly flatwater world ranking events are there? There's the Lost Mills and 11 cities etc in Europe, but it would be interesting to know what proportion of the bigger events worldwide are true flat water ones.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 03:09:22 AM
That will be interesting. I hope they do well. New brands tend to bring some new idea or version to the table that we can all learn from.

How many truly flatwater world ranking events are there? There's the Lost Mills and 11 cities etc in Europe, but it would be interesting to know what proportion of the bigger events worldwide are true flat water ones.

I would argue that the increasing rise of large number draft trains makes even those type of events truly 'flatwater'. If you're going to see clear water or gaps - great. If not, a pure flatwater board might not be always the best option. Its a bit like the difference in road cycling between riders selecting general road bikes or using aero road bikes instead. You'll often see breakaway specialists or sprinters using the aero road bikes but for those in the pack or on domestique duties, comfort, handling or other factors may well be more important.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 08:32:49 AM
I emailed them a few questions regarding some of the points raised in this thread. I'll let you know if I get an answer.....
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: atlanticsup on May 17, 2017, 11:10:28 AM
I'm hoping it succeeds. Nelo are a good company and if they design a K1 in a certain way, it is because it makes sense to.

The Chalupsky/Nelo Surfski focus has been interesting and I think they will grow from strength to strength in this regard where speed in all conditions is a requirement - I have not been on their surfski's yet but they look like they will succeed and have brought some nice innovations that are practical.

I SUP (downwind and wannabe surfer) and surfski and can't wait for the surfski construction to find its way to SUP. Surfskiers will complain about carbon boards being fragile, but they have no idea how tough the construction is compared to the epoxy/foam SUP construction. An 18-19ft ski weighs 10kg in carbon, and I suspect even with extra internals for the deck a 14ft SUP would be <10kg and stronger than the normal epoxy/foam (can't even compare it to carbon epoxy construction).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 12:41:31 PM
I'm hoping it succeeds. Nelo are a good company and if they design a K1 in a certain way, it is because it makes sense to.

The Chalupsky/Nelo Surfski focus has been interesting and I think they will grow from strength to strength in this regard where speed in all conditions is a requirement - I have not been on their surfski's yet but they look like they will succeed and have brought some nice innovations that are practical.

I SUP (downwind and wannabe surfer) and surfski and can't wait for the surfski construction to find its way to SUP. Surfskiers will complain about carbon boards being fragile, but they have no idea how tough the construction is compared to the epoxy/foam SUP construction. An 18-19ft ski weighs 10kg in carbon, and I suspect even with extra internals for the deck a 14ft SUP would be <10kg and stronger than the normal epoxy/foam (can't even compare it to carbon epoxy construction).

Bear in mind, its not actually Nelo. They designed it and built on behalf of the company that owns it and wants to get it out there.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 17, 2017, 12:56:07 PM
As discussed before -> the Signature boards look fast but depend on the pilot.  Good balance will be important for good speed in ocean conditions.  The Strike and SB Race were a step too tippy - so will be interesting to see how these fare.  Think SUP also still have surfski inspired boards -> but are wider due to their rounded bottom profiles.  Other boat builders have introduced boat inspired designs with very low drag -> but have not gained much traction.  My guess is that the low dropped standing area is key -> and will be interesting to see how these boards compare to the race proven 23 and 21.5 Sprint shapes.  The 23 Signature should go ok on flat though.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 02:44:30 PM
As discussed before -> the Signature boards look fast but depend on the pilot.  Good balance will be important for good speed in ocean conditions.  The Strike and SB Race were a step too tippy - so will be interesting to see how these fare.  Think SUP also still have surfski inspired boards -> but are wider due to their rounded bottom profiles.  Other boat builders have introduced boat inspired designs with very low drag -> but have not gained much traction.  My guess is that the low dropped standing area is key -> and will be interesting to see how these boards compare to the race proven 23 and 21.5 Sprint shapes.  The 23 Signature should go ok on flat though.

They sent me back a really nice and detailed email this evening telling me more about the design. It's a rounded rail and mildly convex bottom. It sounds fast but I wonder if it's too rolling for most of us. Looks amazing and being out of Nelo's factory, it's bound to be well made.
Title: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: SG50SUP on May 17, 2017, 09:04:07 PM
They sent me back a really nice and detailed email this evening telling me more about the design. It's a rounded rail and mildly convex bottom. It sounds fast but I wonder if it's too rolling for most of us. Looks amazing and being out of Nelo's factory, it's bound to be well made.
Rider in video is a sup racer and avid downwinder. Not an Olympic paddler. He also sells the board in his store at www.supshop24-7.com
Told you its a dug out canoe with low recessed deck. But did they mention about weight? I think it might be something ridiculous if it's hollow.
Only a matter of time that regulations on minimum weight will be implemented on 14'0 flatwater boards as production  technique improves. 21'5 inch is as skinny as it gets for now.
If they are in Lost Mills for the 200m time trial with Olympiads, then it gets interesting to see it contend against new Mistral, SIC, AquaInc and Sprint. Heck I'd wanna see them side by side! They've already recorded under 60 sec timing for 200m on this board. Maybe the 53.12 sec record from Connor might not hold for long? Only time will tell.


SUPmission 🤙🏽
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 11:57:14 PM
They sent me back a really nice and detailed email this evening telling me more about the design. It's a rounded rail and mildly convex bottom. It sounds fast but I wonder if it's too rolling for most of us. Looks amazing and being out of Nelo's factory, it's bound to be well made.
Rider in video is a sup racer and avid downwinder. Not an Olympic paddler. He also sells the board in his store at www.supshop24-7.com
Told you its a dug out canoe with low recessed deck. But did they mention about weight? I think it might be something ridiculous if it's hollow.
Only a matter of time that regulations on minimum weight will be implemented on 14'0 flatwater boards as production  technique improves. 21'5 inch is as skinny as it gets for now.
If they are in Lost Mills for the 200m time trial with Olympiads, then it gets interesting to see it contend against new Mistral, SIC, AquaInc and Sprint. Heck I'd wanna see them side by side! They've already recorded under 60 sec timing for 200m on this board. Maybe the 53.12 sec record from Connor might not hold for long? Only time will tell.


SUPmission 🤙🏽

There won't be a minimum weight restriction. We don't really have an active governing body as it is to be interested and if the ISA is in charge nothing will change. You'd expect width restrictions first. If the canoe organisation was in charge internationally (as it is at the Lost Mills) it might be different. The weight is low but seems to have been conservatively set at 10kg but they said they could easily go lighter. Durability should be excellent.

I've been given the chance to demo one if I can get to the British leg of the Euro tour but that's sadly looking unlikely at the moment for me. Either way, even in the 24.75 wider width, that's probably too much board balancing for the likes of me. In my view it would be mega fast in the right hands but they'll need to get a world class paddler on board and it's an elitist design.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 20, 2017, 06:02:05 PM
"It's a rounded rail and mildly convex bottom. It sounds fast but I wonder if it's too rolling for most of us."

Sounds tippy if compared to the no hard edges 2015 Race 25 with a big single concave.  Rounded rail with a convex bottom should roll vs plant and go with a flatter design.  Would expect that Signature to require a pilot with good balance even with the dropped standing area.  Would be nice to try though.  The 24.5 might be doable -> but the 23 Hmmm?!?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: bernhardd on May 21, 2017, 01:31:37 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170521/989b33082a73f4c1f5a9f74d6e0822b1.jpg)

Good visibility of the drainingholes.

Interesting Design. For me Kind of too expensive.

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 21, 2017, 08:59:23 AM
Wow, yes - $4000+ dollars US (around £3100 GBP) in Europe...
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: TallDude on May 21, 2017, 09:25:46 AM
But well worth it with the on-board computer and built-in winning assist.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: blackeye on May 21, 2017, 09:33:04 AM
Wow, yes - $4000+ dollars US (around £3100 GBP) in Europe...

The Think XOR with similar construction is on sale at CAD 2800 (~USD 2100).
http://www.deepcoveoutdoors.com/product/think-xor/
 
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 21, 2017, 10:17:27 AM
But well worth it with the on-board computer and built-in winning assist.
Yeah, sadly the pics on the shop website show no computer, just a manufacturing plate. The tail doesn't look very steady when the paddlers are pressing on in the videos but maybe that's just a trick of the camera because of the roll.

I'd certainly like to try one though. Looks fast in the right hands. Unfortunately that's not an opportunity I'm going to get, I suspect. Can't go spending that kind of money with no experience of the brand or model.

Would be fascinating to see a different construction for once. That might be worth paying a premium for, depending on how light + durable it is.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 21, 2017, 10:48:57 AM
Yeah DC sell a lot of SB and Amundson and now One.  But this year are stocking only select models that sell fast for them.  The AS23 and Sprint are now only special order.  We have demo tested some of their boards including the Think XOR a few times.  This is a great hollow surfski inspired board that has a dampened feel with more rounded edges than the Dom.  Much stiffer and better feeling than the Dom except surfing and doing buoy turns.  More of an A->B board with a bit of constant roll.  Positive is that it was about the same speed at 28 wide as the AS25 in a couple of quick sprint tests vs a buddy.  If we did not have the Dom - this would be a better replacement for distance for sure.  The XOR simply cuts the water cleaner and has a smoother release at the tail.  The designer Daryl races his from time to time.  His demo race board is very durable and kinda still looks like new.

He did tell me that he has no intentions of making any narrower hollow SUP boards.  So the Signature is the only other surfski brand board option with a narrower faster outline.  The XOR 28 was about as stable as the AS25.  So quite stable.  Oddly my preference of the 2 would be the wider XOR for distance.  The board just felt smoother and efficient through the water.  In that way the Signature 24.5 would probs feel similar with its similar mild convex underbody.  No doubt that board has low drag as well.  With its very low dropped standing position -> the 24.5 might be just stable enough to allow good power to be put down constant for the average joe.

With the SB Race 25 -> I could not put down solid power in the limited time I tried it.  That board was a major challenge to stand on stationary with no hard edges.  Comparatively the AS23 is easy with its hard edges and longitudinal ridges.  But with time on that tippy Race 25 would suspect that one would learn to compensate for the roll with TOTW and practice in rough conditions.  Like anything - your CNS does adapt surprisingly quick if it has no choice or no other option.  ;)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: TallDude on May 21, 2017, 12:21:01 PM
Huki makes molded hollow carbon race boards. A 14' x 26 flat water, and 14' x 28 all conditions. I've paddled the all condition version and it was super light. Very stable, but there is just something about the sound and feel of molded hollow boards that I dislike. The deck kinda creaks when I'm applying power. It's the difference of the load being spread out because a paddler is seated in a Ski or OC boat, verses a direct point load from a SUP paddlers feet.

http://www.huki.com/index.php?page=SUP_14_Flat_Conditions

http://www.huki.com/index.php?page=SUP_14_All_Conditions

http://www.huki.com/index.php?page=SUP_Prices
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 21, 2017, 04:09:03 PM
Could be difference in design or manufacturing in some way.  But the feel of the XOR hollow is extremely solid and maybe even overbuilt vs carbon EPS.  Yet still remains quite light -> but not extremely so.  Actually the opposite for me is the hollow sound is better on that board with zero creaks.  Just feels and sounds hollow and dampened.  Maybe has something to do with the extreme deep vee but the water pretty much is silent as you cut thru it.  Would def get that XOR if not for our Dom.  Just is a nice well built SUP with a very good finish and light enough.  Best is that it paddles so efficient and quick.  Not splashy and draggy feeling like the cutting boof AS23.  And much less flexy than the Dom.  The pic of the underside shows clearly how much of an extreme deep vee that board has.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mrbig on May 21, 2017, 04:32:15 PM
Eagle, My Starby race is the same nervous twitchy board that it was when I bought it.

I did purchase an Allison Fin. The death skull has tamed the twitchyness a bit. Also have much less trouble with beam seas (cross chop) than before. #livinginadrysuit..

And now feel ready for a narrower 14' as a result. TOW. 140 miles in an ugly winter..
Title: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: SG50SUP on May 21, 2017, 06:55:00 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170522/2b052fff99a74e0a133113caaa8d8648.png)
Spotted in the distance race in Sainte-Maxime earlier. Can't make out the paddler. He wasn't drafting anybody at anytime. Speed vs Stability vs Maneuverability in contest..

SUPmission 🤙🏽
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 21, 2017, 07:39:07 PM
Yeah was thinking about you and your 27 Race Bigs.  An excellent board to improve balance on.  Def TOTW is critical to improving on a board with tippy initial stability.  Sounds like that big fin was key.  For me and my AS23 -> Sam Ting.  Big bad black Elite worked 100% for me.  Oddly the racer that sold me both the Dom and AS -> sold each board with the Elite.  So now we have 2 of those fins.  Super great fin and confidence booster until you get your sea legs on a narrower board.  Great minds thinking alike.  Haha.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 22, 2017, 12:52:26 AM
Could be difference in design or manufacturing in some way.  But the feel of the XOR hollow is extremely solid and maybe even overbuilt vs carbon EPS.  Yet still remains quite light -> but not extremely so.  Actually the opposite for me is the hollow sound is better on that board with zero creaks.  Just feels and sounds hollow and dampened.  Maybe has something to do with the extreme deep vee but the water pretty much is silent as you cut thru it.  Would def get that XOR if not for our Dom.  Just is a nice well built SUP with a very good finish and light enough.  Best is that it paddles so efficient and quick.  Not splashy and draggy feeling like the cutting boof AS23.  And much less flexy than the Dom.  The pic of the underside shows clearly how much of an extreme deep vee that board has.

That was very much my experience racing the Farr board. Other people commented that it was completely silent and couldn't hear it coming up from behind. Plus, that type of construction will allow you to push flatwater shapes into ways that foam construction could not handle. However, I do take someone else's point about feeling disconnected - I had the same. It may have been the choice of deck pad but I found you never felt at one with the board. It might have been something to do with vibration/damping qualities or the crafts high level of stiffness.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 22, 2017, 05:36:30 AM
Yeah the silent no splash is very weird indeed.  The XOR seemed to have major glide properties and was easy to maintain speed vs the narrower 25AS.  Just felt very easy to paddle fast and was very efficient.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on September 08, 2017, 05:19:45 AM
I could test the board and did some pictures.
At flat conditions it's about 0.1 - 0.5 km/h faster than the Allstar.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/3054b4f965ae6ec6aa25cc9d7242ed18.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/e0bb4e59e2701b0de2b59dce988a365f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/63f5c75334c2beaa6bc2b27f1fe2abf2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/f45541264013621929614105fea369df.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/90713b820a80c2b4c16b346765a770f7.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/c42c435134b3021b8e19c09979e64f48.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/c32d965b06c35b5ef6d5037f30278859.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/c4057d31d7c6f4188c21b6b61831bfb2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/2676e707aa3f456dcaabede2257e1592.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/bcb1cd48ba75e5320e0dbb3596688d89.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/285708ad61ed5a4098e8c68064c2f364.jpg)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on September 08, 2017, 05:33:38 AM
I could test the board and did some pictures.
At flat conditions it's about 0.1 - 0.5 km/h faster than the Allstar.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/3054b4f965ae6ec6aa25cc9d7242ed18.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/e0bb4e59e2701b0de2b59dce988a365f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/63f5c75334c2beaa6bc2b27f1fe2abf2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/f45541264013621929614105fea369df.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/90713b820a80c2b4c16b346765a770f7.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/c42c435134b3021b8e19c09979e64f48.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/c32d965b06c35b5ef6d5037f30278859.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/c4057d31d7c6f4188c21b6b61831bfb2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/2676e707aa3f456dcaabede2257e1592.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/bcb1cd48ba75e5320e0dbb3596688d89.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/285708ad61ed5a4098e8c68064c2f364.jpg)

It's a lovely looking board but I wouldn't put up with its instability for only a 0.1kph gain over an allstar (what width ?) but I might be intrigued if it were 0.5 !
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on September 08, 2017, 08:31:05 AM
Allstar is 14x24.5.
LightCorp is 14x24.75

The primary stability is somewhat lower than that of the Allstar.
But the secondary stability is better than expected.
However, I tried the board only in the harbor (21 km) with some wind but hardly waves. A test on the river with current and boat waves is still pending.

I'm not the fastest paddler and my balance could be better (193cm, 93kg) but I think I could learn to master the board.

This was the first session with the LightCorp: https://flow.polar.com/training/analysis/1721574604
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 05, 2018, 12:34:11 AM
Very interesting arrival on the SUP market: more Hollow boards!

I'd love to test this board out, but I'd also be willing to get one without trying it. In my mind, here are advantages:

LIGHTER
With my body weight, a heavier craft / board will always greatly penalise me.

REPAIR AWAY
Repairing a hollow surfski or hollow board is super simple. There's no need to be worried about stupid Styrofoam taking on water, or rotting away after the first hole. I'll also be able to use Polyester resin or Epoxy for my repairs (no longer limited to Epoxy)

LASTS LONGER
I have owned Nelo surfskis for years. My paddle has hit my boat 1000x or more. YOU NEED TO SEE my rails: they are virtually unmarked. On the other side of the coin, if I hit my board's rails 5 times during a single session, you'd be likely see FIVE MARKS.

BAN ON STYROFOAM
There is a good reason why we are banning styrofoam in the US - no more cups and coolers made of this stuff is allowed. With hollow boards, we are removing one more ingredient - and a lousy one at that (Styrofoam be gone). Actually, I am a bit surprised that no one is mentioning Styrofoam-be-Gone.

MORE GELCOAT
Hollow boards have the potential to be very light. With hollow boards, we will be able to use more gelcoat and have a board that will last a whole lot longer. That's a whole lot better than using car paint - as many manufacturers try to save weight.

SHAPE
The current Nelo board may be for flat water - and we all know Nelo had a reputation for great FLAT WATER crafts. The last 3 years have proven to me that Nelo has an open mind: they have designed (from the ground up) incredible surfskis that excel in the rougher conditions.

I say it again: I welcome them to bring more boards made from Molds.

Here's a 9.8 kilos ski, complete with rudder, cables, and foot plate.
(and no Styrofoam there)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-Jun-15-Nelo-SURFSKI/i-xjxmxFh/2/f6d5156e/XL/NELO-0002-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560M/i-xjxmxFh/A)




Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: atlanticsup on February 05, 2018, 03:15:34 AM
Agree on all of the above photofr and double emphasis on BAN ON STYROFOAM. I have struggled on the concept of loving the sea, seeing how plastic pollution every time I paddle in amazing pristine conditions, and then knowing that my collection of SUP's will in 5 years be breaking up and adding to that collection even if it ends in a landfill.

My Think Evo (surfski) was close to 10 years (I think) when I got rid of it. Still perfect to use for another 10 years with less scratches than my two year SUP's, and only made fibreglass. Hopefully SUP industry learns as I think you can come up with some amazing designs which are very tough. To me surfski's seem so much better value that smaller SUP's.

Hopefully more to follow from other manufacturers as industry matures and becomes more responsible to the environment
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on February 06, 2018, 11:32:03 AM
Eagle, My Starby race is the same nervous twitchy board that it was when I bought it.

...

Couldn't agree more. You could get used to it but it still would suck.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 13, 2018, 12:58:23 AM
I just placed an order from France.

Since the Nelo board is made in Europe, it will have have my custom colors (all blue with two white stripes) and will be built from scratch.

Built Time: currently about 4 weeks wait
Shipping: about 3 days
Total wait: about 5 weeks

I was told that just like surfskis, paddlers can customise colors and design. However, just like surfskis, you gotta watch out for weight. Colours like Red, Orange, Dark Blue, Black (and pretty much all dark gelcoat) will add more weight. In my experience, light blue is VERY LIGHT.

Anyway, pretty exciting stuff.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 15, 2018, 01:59:28 AM
Nice. How much more is the custom Nelo costing you than a carbon Starboard Sprint, in your own country?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 15, 2018, 02:22:18 AM
Including shipping to my front steps, I am saving:
- about 600 euros
- about 3 months waiting

MODIFICATIONS (to emphasise a few things)
Comparing the two boards based on prices along is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.
- I do not like the 2018 Sprint - not matching my needs
- Finding a 2017 Sprint wasn't so easy
- I want to get away from as much Styrofoam as possible - not possible with a board filled with the stuff
- If Starboard would have been 800 euros less, I still would have gone with the Nelo (because of my personal priorities)
- A 2017 board would have been sitting for nearly a year before I purchased it - and that's not so inviting to me
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 15, 2018, 05:36:17 PM
Wow - when you can get a locally-made custom far cheaper and quicker than a board from a factory in Asia, you really know that globalisation isnít always working for you!

I hope that local custom shapers start to eat into the SUP global market because I think that the big brands (and the factory) are essentially colluding to keep SUP prices as high as people will go and still buy the board.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: warmuth on February 15, 2018, 07:01:52 PM
  Here in Florida just about everyone is switching to a local brand, Flying Fish. Cheaper than pretty much all production boards, well made (my 23 is 19.5 pounds minus fin) and the shape works incredibly well for just about every condition. Itís pretty amazing how quickly theyíve caught on and have taken a large chunk out of the brand name raceboard sales in this area.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 15, 2018, 07:09:21 PM
  Here in Florida just about everyone is switching to a local brand, Flying Fish. Cheaper than pretty much all production boards, well made (my 23 is 19.5 pounds minus fin) and the shape works incredibly well for just about every condition. Itís pretty amazing how quickly theyíve caught on and have taken a large chunk out of the brand name raceboard sales in this area.

When you think about it. Local knowledge of the local conditions, no freight, direct interaction during the process....it makes so much sense. Maybe shapers should share the market and relocate each one in a region to open a market.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 15, 2018, 09:29:19 PM
The great news is that the local population is catching on, and so are local shapers all over the World. Here in France, we have 3-Bay, and he's expanded rather well with a nice little network - including a 7-hour drive radius all over France. Incidentally, he was the shaper for BIC for many years, so he knows a thing or two about shapes too.

Other interesting facts:
We've killed the buzz in cycling - at least a little - when pretty much everyone started manufacturing their bikes in China. Take Cannondale ; "just devastating" and prices were driven high and hard.

Now, take Nelo... and here's some great news:
A 11.5 kilo surfski (still about 3 pounds lighter than most boards out of China) has a starting price of about 2300 euros in Portugal. The same board is about 2800 in France. A quality surfski out of China is currently about 2800 euros, but weights about 16 kilos. If the Made in China surfski is going to weigh 11 or 12 kilos, expect to pay as much as 3600 euros for that surfski.

Now, keep in mind, surfski use much more material than SUP.
Surfskis also use a rudder, a rudder shaft, rudder bar, lines, fittings, and of course a hard plate as well as two pedals. It adds up very quickly. The 14' Nelo SUP isn't fitted with all of this, but still costs about 3300 euros (depending on where you buy it from).

If you removed the middle man from Germany (Lightboard) we should see the exact same board with the exact same construction, made in Europe, ultra light, and ultra durable - for about 1800 (perhaps even 2200 if someone was a little greedy).

Why is this great news?
Because I really think that people are going to be more conscious and buy more locally. I also think that prices are going to drop when SUP builders realise that more people are buying boards.

Anyway, perhaps there's HOPE - because sending the work overseas may not always be the answer, especially when (for the most part) people overseas do not care at all about harming the environment/or not harming it. 
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 18, 2018, 10:46:44 AM
I hope that local custom shapers start to eat into the SUP global market because I think that the big brands (and the factory) are essentially colluding to keep SUP prices as high as people will go and still buy the board.

I agree although I suspect its more likely that Starboard and Naish are intentionally stretching the elastic which then allows the slightly smaller firms the justification to do likewise. I doubt its actual collusion. I only know of some limited sales info but I do wonder if the brands can see they are pricing the raceboard market out. Its a small proportion of some brands sales (who can afford it to be) but a much bigger one of others.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: supuk on February 18, 2018, 02:05:36 PM
I can tell you if you think the price of race boards is going to come down massively over time you are very sadly wrong. prices will continue to rise in general us as the cost of composites and materials increase or they will just continue to cut corners and use cheaper less skilled labour giving you even poorer quality product under the same coat of paint. It is possible to get more for your money with various different manufacturing techniques but this can only happen when designs are not changed every 12mths and high quality molds can be used for longer production runs. If people really want to see progress in sport more people need to support the small company's that have more respect for there workforce and the product they produce but also expect to pay more but in tern get a lot more for the money in forms of quality, construction techniques and more ethical forms of labour.


Unfortunately there are very few surfers people in the sport that will ever see or understand the difference between  something that has been skilfully constructed with huge amounts of attention paid to every step of the process and a cheap old nasty board that comes out of cobra or similar factory

 people seam happy to through thousand away at a boards every year, perhaps getting a 20% mates rate/team rider/brand ambassador  discount from there local shop on the big brand names for it to fall apart in a year or two with a huge fanatical loos and a massive penalty on the environment from the waste in materials and transportation that the boards go through to get to you.

People really need to learn this does not have to be the way and follow in the footsteps of photofr and the few others sadly this will probably never happen in a big way and people will continue to be fobbed off with a load of junk.
 
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 18, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
Well I wish that the few manufacturers that there are who can build things a better way would stop making stupidly elite boards that are virtually unuseable by most people in the real world. Then we would buy them.

And sadly many local shapers canít afford to put in the R&D that is needed to really perfect a design, especially raceboard designs. We often hear of big brands saying that they have tried eg. 20 different prototypes before a raceboard they got a design they were happy with. Now, no doubt a lot of this is marketing flannel. But if they tried even half that number of prototypes that would be out of the pocket of the local shaper to do. Building 10 prototype boards to just throw away would be a ruinously expensive thing for a local shaper to do.

So thereís the problem. The people with the skills and inclination to build a board that weighs much less but is much more durable than todayís Cobra factory offerings mostly donít have sufficient financial backing to pay for the R&D necessary to create a distinctive but good design. And they donít have the retailer network to drum up orders for them and give rider feedback from the public.

So itís not just the customersí fault. There are few genuinely good options out there from local shapers. If there were good options weíd buy them.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 18, 2018, 04:06:48 PM
After all these dire words, I am buying another used Vapor to stockpile :-)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 18, 2018, 04:15:37 PM
I can tell you if you think the price of race boards is going to come down massively over time you are very sadly wrong. prices will continue to rise in general us as the cost of composites and materials increase or they will just continue to cut corners and use cheaper less skilled labour giving you even poorer quality product under the same coat of paint. It is possible to get more for your money with various different manufacturing techniques but this can only happen when designs are not changed every 12mths and high quality molds can be used for longer production runs. If people really want to see progress in sport more people need to support the small company's that have more respect for there workforce and the product they produce but also expect to pay more but in tern get a lot more for the money in forms of quality, construction techniques and more ethical forms of labour.


Unfortunately there are very few surfers people in the sport that will ever see or understand the difference between  something that has been skilfully constructed with huge amounts of attention paid to every step of the process and a cheap old nasty board that comes out of cobra or similar factory

 people seam happy to through thousand away at a boards every year, perhaps getting a 20% mates rate/team rider/brand ambassador  discount from there local shop on the big brand names for it to fall apart in a year or two with a huge fanatical loos and a massive penalty on the environment from the waste in materials and transportation that the boards go through to get to you.

People really need to learn this does not have to be the way and follow in the footsteps of photofr and the few others sadly this will probably never happen in a big way and people will continue to be fobbed off with a load of junk.
 

So sad but very true!

I still amazes me people spending $3000+ on a "China" made board when they could spend the same amount on a beautiful custom, tailored made for them and have control of every aspect of
the board. One also learns a lot about board design and construction during the process. After 4 custom boards I still believe that.

It's very unfortunate you're not on my side of the pond supuk, I would have loved to have a custom one from you as well. If you'll find a way to make a
a one-off hollow molded comparable to a foam core price wise, I would pull the trigger on that even with the pain involved in shipping it over here.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 18, 2018, 04:24:31 PM
We often hear of big brands saying that they have tried eg. 20 different prototypes before a raceboard they got a design they were happy with. Now, no doubt a lot of this is marketing flannel.

I think they actually do (see Starboard for example) to only thing they forgot to mention is that each year they release one of those prototypes and market it as a new model, good strategy.
In 5 years, after testing 10 different prototypes, and having the public fund it for them they'll actually come out with the really finished product.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 18, 2018, 04:28:53 PM
It's very unfortunate you're not on my side of the pond supuk, I would have loved to have a custom one from you as well.

He should come to Canada first!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: supuk on February 18, 2018, 04:49:28 PM
I can tell you if you think the price of race boards is going to come down massively over time you are very sadly wrong. prices will continue to rise in general us as the cost of composites and materials increase or they will just continue to cut corners and use cheaper less skilled labour giving you even poorer quality product under the same coat of paint. It is possible to get more for your money with various different manufacturing techniques but this can only happen when designs are not changed every 12mths and high quality molds can be used for longer production runs. If people really want to see progress in sport more people need to support the small company's that have more respect for there workforce and the product they produce but also expect to pay more but in tern get a lot more for the money in forms of quality, construction techniques and more ethical forms of labour.


Unfortunately there are very few surfers people in the sport that will ever see or understand the difference between  something that has been skilfully constructed with huge amounts of attention paid to every step of the process and a cheap old nasty board that comes out of cobra or similar factory

 people seam happy to through thousand away at a boards every year, perhaps getting a 20% mates rate/team rider/brand ambassador  discount from there local shop on the big brand names for it to fall apart in a year or two with a huge fanatical loos and a massive penalty on the environment from the waste in materials and transportation that the boards go through to get to you.

People really need to learn this does not have to be the way and follow in the footsteps of photofr and the few others sadly this will probably never happen in a big way and people will continue to be fobbed off with a load of junk.
 

So sad but very true!

I still amazes me people spending $3000+ on a "China" made board when they could spend the same amount on a beautiful custom, tailored made for them and have control of every aspect of
the board. One also learns a lot about board design and construction during the process. After 4 custom boards I still believe that.

It's very unfortunate you're not on my side of the pond supuk, I would have loved to have a custom one from you as well. If you'll find a way to make a
a one-off hollow molded comparable to a foam core price wise, I would pull the trigger on that even with the pain involved in shipping it over here.

I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality  molds made and like I say I just donít think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 18, 2018, 05:39:04 PM
I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality  molds made and like I say I just donít think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !

Yes, tens of thousands for a single mold is insane. I was hoping that with recent advancements in 3D printing, there would be a way to produce a more affordable molds.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 18, 2018, 11:54:07 PM
Let's share a little about R&D (Research and Development)

Most people think that we need 10-20 prototype boards to come out with ONE GOOD ONE - but that's just not true. Take Naish (back in the days when he was shaping them by hand), take TwoGood Kayaks (where I worked, right next door to Naish - building hollow surfski in the late 80's), take even Nelo today... etc... and you'll notice that since they were all experienced builders, it took them one plug (one prototype) that sometimes was slightly modified once, twice, or three times - AND THAT WAS IT. We were very careful to get it "right" because we would run with it for about 3 to 7 years.

Before the prototype was agreed upon, it was tested by several people, but not even Naish back in the day made 10 or 20 prototypes before releasing a new model.

Surfski today runs for 3 to 5 years - with the same exact Mold. When you want to go faster, you just train harder, train smarter, and work on technique. But your ski lasts - well after that.

RESEARCH
CHINA perhaps wants us to believe that they are building 20 prototypes - that is just not true.
They want us to believe that they are testing new boards extensively - but that's just not true at all - heck, they usually only test their new Open Water boards on dead flat water)

DESIGN
CAD Design "told" shapers to make the boards longer - and to use shape X in order to achieve intended use. Shapers, listen to CAD, and when the board came out 15 or 16 feet long, they simply took it upon themselves to cut off the rear of the board - to make it 12'6.

MARKETING
Then they went out of their way with marketing to tell you (the consumer) that 12'6 was better. Sadly, most people believed manufacturers. Let's be clear: 12'6 boards will benefit companies - not YOU. What is even more sad is that today (2018) you'll find a great many consumers who still believe that 12'6 is BETTER. It's like believing that Volvo is still the safest car in the World, sadly, most people do - because of extensive marketing (very successful marketing in fact).

R&D
If R&D was really present, we'd end up with boards that can be slightly improved from time to time. We would NEVER end up with a total lemon from time to time.

SADLY
SUP manufacturers are however working really hard at finding cheaper materiel (not lighter, stronger or more durable)

HOLLOW BOARDS
First off, not all hollow boards or hollow surfskis are created equally. The good ones will use:

FOAM CORE (aka Sandwich construction)
That a small amount of PVC foam 1/4" usually, that's going to lay between two main layers of cloth. Experience is crucial there, because it has to be laid out using a vacuum system and knowledge on how to curb your foam before placing it in your Mold. The cool thing with foam core is that your ski or board will not sink if it takes on water - AND the materiel will not rot if introduced to Ocean Water. This foam is closed-cell foam.

CLOTH
They can use glass, Kevlar, and/or carbon

RESIN
Epoxy is stronger, but more expensive.
Polyester resin is cheaper, but a little more flex.

Heck, putting it bluntly, let's just say that R&D is not taken into account when 11 years later, we are still building boards out of Styrofoam.

However, perhaps you think that building a plug, and then building a Mold will be lengthy and super expensive?
It isn't - especially with today's tools like CAD (Computer Aid Design) and machines to actually shape a Mold.

You don't want a Mold, but you also don't want the nasty Styrofoam?
Try this... NO WORDS... just look at the design and construction.
It costs you about $500 to make ONE.
It's about 10 kilos, faster than many 14' boards, far more stable, and well: kinda beautiful.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-Jun-16-Marc-Pelloquet/i-ZVpg33f/1/4aa896ae/X2/NELO-0018-X2.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-Jun-16-Marc-Pelloquet/i-ZVpg33f/A)



Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: supuk on February 19, 2018, 12:49:01 AM


However, perhaps you think that building a plug, and then building a Mold will be lengthy and super expensive?
It isn't - especially with today's tools like CAD (Computer Aid Design) and machines to actually shape a Mold.



I'm sorry but that is not true! as all ways you can build a cheap mold using a board as a plug and then use vinyl ester  to lay the mold up which is the cheap option that will probably have a investment cost of Ä3-5000, I actually did a 12'6 like this may years ago, some were on here I think there was a thread. if you start bringing in cnc's then you immediately have a Ä50-60 per hour minimum charge for the machining time and around Ä100 per m2 for tooling board if you get the cheap stuff so your already in to the 8-10,000 area even you can then use vinyl ester again if you just doing wet layups or lo temp stuff however if you want to do it properly in a autoclave at high temp you need to lay the mold up in pre preg high temp carbon so at that point your at the Ä20,000 mark! I have do a huge amount of research on this and spoke to a number of companies so these are not made up numbers. If it was cheap I would have done it a long time ago!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 19, 2018, 01:34:07 AM
CHEAP
If you want cheap, go with wood and ballistic cloth.

CHEAP AND FAST
Cheap is all very relative. In the late 80's, cheap would have been the equivalent to about $25000 to make one Mold. That's labor and materiel. Today, and with the help of computers and machines, you can expect a surfski Mold for about 15-$30000 - but sales are almost guaranteed if you come up with a 1/2 way descent design that's built well.

What's super positive today is the speed at which we can build a Mold. It used to take us the best part of 9 months, sometimes even 16 months to make a single Mold. Today, two to four weeks and you can have a Mold ready for production.

WAY MORE IMPORTANT
That's why (in my eyes) it's far more important to ensure you have a good design before you place it in production. If the new craft is designed for the middle of the pack paddlers, then it's imperative you get middle-of-the-pack paddlers on that board and provide you with real feedback.

If your "new" board is designed for top notch athletes, you gotta place that board in real life situation (several times over, with a variety of body weights and strength) before placing that board into production.

Sadly, what is happening NOW is just so different. However, with companies like NELO, THINK, and HUKI who have made the leap to Mold constructions, the future seems rather promising - as long as they test their new boards extensively before production.

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 19, 2018, 04:24:55 AM
I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality  molds made and like I say I just donít think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !

Yes, tens of thousands for a single mold is insane. I was hoping that with recent advancements in 3D printing, there would be a way to produce a more affordable molds.

Prior to academia, I worked in the injection moulding industry for 4 years. All our mould manufacturing went to China during this time - basically since it was impossible for 'UK industry to compete with a workforce that is willing to work for just rice and beans for a 12 hour shift for 365 days a year'.

That was something quoted to me at the time. The bottom line is that tooling isn't cheap at all and CAD hasn't changed that (mainly as so much of tooling cost isn't the CAD but the finishing required on it - which often has to be done manually and can't be automated).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: supuk on February 19, 2018, 04:53:58 AM
I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality  molds made and like I say I just donít think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !

Yes, tens of thousands for a single mold is insane. I was hoping that with recent advancements in 3D printing, there would be a way to produce a more affordable molds.

Prior to academia, I worked in the injection moulding industry for 4 years. All our mould manufacturing went to China during this time - basically since it was impossible for 'UK industry to compete with a workforce that is willing to work for just rice and beans for a 12 hour shift for 365 days a year'.


Exactly which is why people need to think a little bit and deside if supporting the businesses using this kind of labour often with little to know safety precautions is some they should be doing! Just because the workers are from China ect should they be used like this? ( I recently saw a video of a popular brands factory spaying boards with work wareing just a paper mask! )
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 19, 2018, 10:19:29 AM
I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality  molds made and like I say I just donít think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !

Yes, tens of thousands for a single mold is insane. I was hoping that with recent advancements in 3D printing, there would be a way to produce a more affordable molds.

Prior to academia, I worked in the injection moulding industry for 4 years. All our mould manufacturing went to China during this time - basically since it was impossible for 'UK industry to compete with a workforce that is willing to work for just rice and beans for a 12 hour shift for 365 days a year'.


Exactly which is why people need to think a little bit and deside if supporting the businesses using this kind of labour often with little to know safety precautions is some they should be doing! Just because the workers are from China ect should they be used like this? ( I recently saw a video of a popular brands factory spaying boards with work wareing just a paper mask! )
That's a very good point, and I have seen videos with that happening too.

But the question is, what price do you think people should be paying for a SUP? (i.e. that would make it financially possible for a local shaper to build boards using better methods to produce a lighter, more durable product, and also do the R&D necessary to develop the design)?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: supuk on February 19, 2018, 10:57:12 AM
I don't think the prices wouldn't need to change much from what people are paying for production boards it just needs a change in mentality from  the people to use these companies and to stop getting sucked in to the marketing bs from the others and look closely at the quality of the products they are getting from these second rate manufactures

Most of what people are paying for with these boards coming from over sea's is the shipping of them multiple times around the globe passing through the hands of agents and distributers that all add there % When if you go to someone smaller or even just based on the same continent although your paying the same the money will be going in to more skilled labor working under better conditions generally creating better products 

from my experience working with sponsors back in the day R&D was often a rushed process with designs going into production that had never actual been tested but just a thought of what needed to be changed from the previous model or prototype were a lot of the time the companies that don't have a yearly catalog are developing boards constantly making and tweaking designs so although it may not appear that they have done much R&D they have actually done a lot more refining than most as there is no need to change things just to generate some marketing blurb for the new season.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 19, 2018, 12:30:48 PM
Well then build yourself a demo fleet, hire a salesman/website manager, train up someone to do your glassing for you, and become a millionaire! :)

Certainly the construction of the Grey Paddleboards custom I have is unbelievably good. Itís virtually bullet-proof in comparison to the big brand boards, weighs less, and the attention to detail is far beyond the production boards. Iíve ridden it hard and in some pretty tricky conditions and it looks exactly the same as they day I got it.

I think that, as a customer, the main problem is that you just donít know what is possible until you actually see a board that is well-made. 99% of people in many markets have never seen a custom.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: supuk on February 19, 2018, 01:07:41 PM
unfortunately I really cant see people ever changing there ways enough and forsake there mates rates brand amasser team discounts to ever make it worth all the money and effort to develop and produce a production line of boards. As long as I can all ways build my own boards and not have to pay over the odd for one of these boards that will keep me happy I just hope in time peoples will realise and start to look closer at what they are buying and use companies like nelo that are not using low paid labour and building better quality
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 19, 2018, 01:29:04 PM
Well, thereís a helluva lot of people who have looked at my custom with great interest. So Iím not sure your pessimism is well-founded. I got stopped on the beach just the other day by a guy who ran over and asked me where he could get one. But the race scene in the UK is saturated with people who will ride any old piece of crap just as long as they can call themselves a ďsponsored riderĒ or ďbeach ambassadorĒ or whatever. So yes, they are a lost cause. But there are still plenty of people who would love a custom that is brilliantly made, fits them perfectly, is made locally, and costs no more than a production board. But they need to be able to try one first. Once a shaper has established a brand name then customers may buy one on faith. But few people are going to buy a custom if they havenít seen in advance what they will get. Mark Rasphorst has many pictures of his customs in his website. And no doubt we could try one of his designs too, if we were in Maui. So youíve got yourself a chicken-and-egg situation, I suspect.

Yeah, Nelo etc are interesting. They just need to SUP more though, I suspect. Hopefully they will get there. I donít mind paying a bit more to get a lot more.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 19, 2018, 11:23:19 PM
Good points - and there's also the ever present factor: "must have what is popular" - in pretty much any sport.

Take skiing, snowboarding, biking, windsurfing, SUP,  Coca-Cola, tennis, etc... Would you really go buy a SUP that you have heard nothing about before? Manufacturers pray on that - it's actually the essence of marketing: "put it in people's faces, people will think it's popular".

Coca-Cola can sometimes be compared to poison. Why are you buying it? Why am I buying it? Well, actually, I don't drink much coke these days - but we must admit that they are everywhere we look. Their marketing used to be in excess of 70% of their entire earnings - for a good reason.

Certain SUP brands are bought because we see them winning - which is ridiculous because certain SUP brands go well out of their ways to literally purchase only the top paddlers. If you can't beat them, BUY THEM. Spectators aren't blind (but kind of) - they see this as "look, that board made a Podium again".


With all of this said, I believe we are even more fortunate than we think when we have a new brand coming out with innovating designs and construction methods that will - no doubt - change the way we see SUP. Nelo is one example.

At the same time, I am totally shocked with how Nelo did it.
They have years and YEARS of experience in R&D, construction, etc...
They have redefined how crafts will move through the water - or at least came up with several hull designs to make glide through the water even better. They have done this with flat water kayaks, flat water canoes, and now with SURFSKIS.

I AM MOST SHOCKED BECAUSE:
Nelo could have easily by-passed a German middle man.
Nelo could have easily come up with their design.

Mark my words: a board with Nelo R&D, with Nelo construction and with Nelo distribution would cost between 1800 and 2200 euros in most European countries. Add the middle man, and you immediately add about 40%.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 19, 2018, 11:37:32 PM
My main concern with Nelo is whether the board is designed for mass start racing. I found this with the Farr hollow construction board a couple of years back. That was designed by Americas cup engineers and it was awesomely quick on its own (even with a 26.5 width) but get it in a mass start race and it struggled. Nelo may not have an understanding of the nuances of SUP racing that would influence it's design in the way that Starboard, Naish et al have already been through.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 20, 2018, 12:04:48 AM
@UKGM

Why?
Do you feel like the Nelo 14x23" doesn't have enough primary stability?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 12:20:55 AM
@UKGM

Why?
Do you feel like the Nelo 14x23" doesn't have enough primary stability?

I believe so. The problem was that I've made that assumption based on videos I've seen plus one paddler I know who has one using (all in lieu of me not being able to access one to try it myself). That's not a great way to forumlate an opinion. If the 24.75 (which is more my volume) is workable for me, I'd race one tomorrow - that's how strongly I feel about the concept.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 12:51:33 AM
My main concern with Nelo is whether the board is designed for mass start racing. I found this with the Farr hollow construction board a couple of years back. That was designed by Americas cup engineers and it was awesomely quick on its own (even with a 26.5 width) but get it in a mass start race and it struggled. Nelo may not have an understanding of the nuances of SUP racing that would influence it's design in the way that Starboard, Naish et al have already been through.
Yes, this it it. You have to have raceboards designed by people who actually race, not who just paddle fast.

When we see Nelo shapers actually paddling in races (eg. like Mark Rasphorst and several other shapers), then I think that confidence will spread. Most flat water races are probably not decided by pure flat water speed any more, but thatís where designers who donít race would naturally put their focus.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 20, 2018, 12:54:53 AM
Heck, I haven't tried one, and I too feel like it could use a little bit of love regarding primary stability.

In the World of SURFSKI, we refer and compare PRIMARY and SECONDARY stability. In SUP, this translates with two boards that come to mind: the Allstar and the Ace (both 14x25)

The Allstar has tons of primary stability: you stand on it and it feels rock solid under your feet. Start tilting the board a bunch and you feel secondary stability - although about "average" on the Allstar.

The Ace: comparatively speaking to the above board, the Ace has a whole lot less primary stability. However, with its huge sidewalls, the Ace has far better secondary stability.

Judging from images and videos that I see regarding the Nelo board, my best guess is that the larger Nelo board will probably have less primary stability than the Ace.

WHY?
Another guess here, but probably worth mentioning that the Nelo board is built by Nelo with Nelo's nearly unparalleled construction methods. However, the R&D isn't Nelo. Perhaps it was Nelo's way to test the SUP World... ?

BETTER?
I would much prefer see a Nelo conception regarding the design - and perhaps we will see that in the near future. With a lot of certainty, and based on Nelo's current concepts regarding amazing water crafts, we will likely see a future SUP BOARD that will have the following characteristics:
- Narrow width bow
- Nose piercing bow
- Strategically flatten areas in the hull (not all flat, but with flat areas)
- Pin tail

In fact, Nelo's future boards may look more like a K15 - under 9 kilos including fin.

The above info is based on what they have accomplished with SURFSKIS. Nelo has the 560 which is an amazing surfski, but the based advancement is the Nelo 550 surfski. Two distinctly flat hull areas that add tons of primary stability.

Let's recall that primary stability is (in my opinion) crucial as reassures you the second you get on that ski / board. The current board may be the exact opposite of that, but again, it's my "best guess".


Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 12:55:08 AM
My main concern with Nelo is whether the board is designed for mass start racing. I found this with the Farr hollow construction board a couple of years back. That was designed by Americas cup engineers and it was awesomely quick on its own (even with a 26.5 width) but get it in a mass start race and it struggled. Nelo may not have an understanding of the nuances of SUP racing that would influence it's design in the way that Starboard, Naish et al have already been through.
Yes, this it it. You have to have raceboards designed by people who actually race, not who just paddle fast.

When we see Nelo shapers actually paddling in races (eg. like Mark Rasphorst and several other shapers), then I think that confidence will spread. Most flat water races are probably not decided by pure flat water speed any more, but thatís where designers who donít race would naturally put their focus.

More specifically, its why if I were buying a board or looking for a team, I'd be paddling the 2018 Starboard Sprint. It's probably not as fast in a straight line as the 2017 or 2016 versions but it had tweaks based on the kind of racing and handling we need, not just raw speed in isolation.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 01:00:01 AM

1) In fact, Nelo's future boards may look more like a K15 - under 9 kilos including fin.

2) The above info is based on what they have accomplished with SURFSKIS. Nelo has the 560 which is an amazing surfski, but the based advancement is the Nelo 550 surfski. Two distinctly flat hull areas that add tons of primary stability.

3) Let's recall that primary stability is (in my opinion) crucial as reassures you the second you get on that ski / board. The current board may be the exact opposite of that, but again, it's my "best guess".
1) I was only thinking this yesterday. That design was ahead of its time but with poor construction by todays standards. One of the domestic racers still does well on it (despite trying more recent allstars) even when the board weighs a huge amount.

2) I agree. I paddle Epic surfski's.

3) Absolutely and its primary stability that gets sales in my opinion, not the promise of secondary stability.

I hate to bring this subject up but this might be where you start to see a division between the ICF and the ISA equipment with competitors in one going with one type of construction that suits its racing formats but with surf remaining as is.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 20, 2018, 01:24:11 AM
Perhaps it's the beginning of a BIG CHANGE.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 01:47:16 AM
It's also worth noting that the downside to a hollow construction fixed mould board design is that (like surfski's and kayaks) you'll likely see a longer R&D period but less turnover of new designs from a brand. The reason for this is that the manufacturer will need to get their moulds paid off so bringing new designs annually (as per foam construction) is both costly and inefficient. Current surf ski and kayak designs see years in service before the design is tweaked.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 20, 2018, 02:00:33 AM
Yes, but do we really need a change every year?
Are SUP builders exempt from trying to make a great board design that will last 2 to 4 years?

The 14x25 Race was a complete flop - and could have been 100% avoided if the company wasn't rushed to produce a new board. Surely, that kind of mistake is repeated with most SUP - and the cause could very come from the need to produce something new every single year - using my money, your money and everyone's money to test new products for them.

Personally, I'd rather see a company slow the process down, and come out with more durable products, with shapes that are trued and actually tried (and by that, I specifically mean in-house testing before releasing a stellar board)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 02:08:36 AM
Yes, but do we really need a change every year?
Are SUP builders exempt from trying to make a great board design that will last 2 to 4 years?

The 14x25 Race was a complete flop - and could have been 100% avoided if the company wasn't rushed to produce a new board. Surely, that kind of mistake is repeated with most SUP - and the cause could very come from the need to produce something new every single year - using my money, your money and everyone's money to test new products for them.

Personally, I'd rather see a company slow the process down, and come out with more durable products, with shapes that are trued and actually tried (and by that, I specifically mean in-house testing before releasing a stellar board)

I don't disagree. To a qualified eye, its clear to me that many of Starboards boards were just an ongoing stream of prototypes put into production annually. No other sports industry I know of works to that short scale timescale for new product development. That either means that they have the best R&D mechanism in the world or that they have a flawed process that they want you to pay for as often as possible. I'll let others be the judge.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 02:12:54 AM
I think that weíve all agreed from the start of SUP that the ďnew model every yearĒ SOP from the likes of Starboard has been unhelpful for customer and retailer alike. The early days were especially mad, with sime brands producing nearly all different shapes and names every 12 monthís. But the rapid changes have reflected and helped the rapid development of the sport (and in surfing perhaps even more than racing). If the brands are going to keep models in production for many years then there will have to be better coordination between manufacturers and race organisers/governing bodies to avoid regulation or format changes being financially catastrophic for small companies, and it will tend to ossify design development and race/competitive formats. So there might be downsides as well as upsides.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 06:40:30 AM
I think that weíve all agreed from the start of SUP that the ďnew model every yearĒ SOP from the likes of Starboard has been unhelpful for customer and retailer alike.

We might all agree on that, but in practice most paddlers I know still buy into this BS.

Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.

With that in mind, I don't see much hope for the average paddler. They'll just keep changing board every year in their search for a unicorn.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 06:53:55 AM
I think that weíve all agreed from the start of SUP that the ďnew model every yearĒ SOP from the likes of Starboard has been unhelpful for customer and retailer alike.

Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.


A fair point. A lot of my reasons came mainly down to resale value (I can resell a Starboard in a week or two and take less hit than any other brand - a custom is all but worthless and impossible to sell on over here). I was offered two team rides this year but both were on boards that would have hurt my results. I instead bought one secondhand that delivered time trial PB's quickly fora 2017 board that I bought for 33% of its RRP. Yes, it was a compromise but a good board and was a wallet friendly option.

I'll likely move onto another board next year and I'm undecided on what that would be yet. The Nelo may well be it but I'm just as likely to hold out for a secondhand Sprint 2018. Being educated is one thing but we've all got wallets to defend too !
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 07:29:23 AM
I think that weíve all agreed from the start of SUP that the ďnew model every yearĒ SOP from the likes of Starboard has been unhelpful for customer and retailer alike.

Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.


A fair point. A lot of my reasons came mainly down to resale value (I can resell a Starboard in a week or two and take less hit than any other brand - a custom is all but worthless and impossible to sell on over here). I was offered two team rides this year but both were on boards that would have hurt my results. I instead bought one secondhand that delivered time trial PB's quickly fora 2017 board that I bought for 33% of its RRP. Yes, it was a compromise but a good board and was a wallet friendly option.

I'll likely move onto another board next year and I'm undecided on what that would be yet. The Nelo may well be it but I'm just as likely to hold out for a secondhand Sprint 2018. Being educated is one thing but we've all got wallets to defend too !

It's a fair point as well. The point I'm making is using your knowledge to come up with a timeless design that works for you and lasts for years. It's doable, take a look at the SIC Bullet.
Once you've reached a certain level and identified the most fulfilling aspects of the sport and then tested pretty much every concept out there, I'm pretty sure you can make it work.

I didn't dive into the economics of the board resell arena but i'm pretty sure you're loosing money every year and still end up with a compromised product. You still have to come up with
a hefty sum every year, 33% or not. And if your board got damaged, a possibility likely to happen on those egg-shell boards you'll likely kiss your resell value goodbye.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 20, 2018, 07:37:28 AM
We might all agree on that, but in practice most paddlers I know still buy into this BS.
Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.
With that in mind, I don't see much hope for the average paddler. They'll just keep changing board every year in their search for a unicorn.

In fairness, some of us would love to have a custom but do not have proximity to a shaper....I would have loved to buy the equivalent of a 16' Bark Vapor with a nice layering. instead I had to console myself with buying a second hand Carbon Ghost one and sell my ProElite one. I think that once you have come to really like a shape for your own use, after board hoping for a while, then it makes total sense to go for a custom based on a variation of the shape you like.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 08:00:41 AM
I think that once you have come to really like a shape for your own use, after board hoping for a while, then it makes total sense to go for a custom based on a variation of the shape you like.

I had you in mind as well when making this point. There is always a tiny leap of faith going that route but the end result is a pure joy.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 10:21:55 AM
We might all agree on that, but in practice most paddlers I know still buy into this BS.
Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.
With that in mind, I don't see much hope for the average paddler. They'll just keep changing board every year in their search for a unicorn.

In fairness, some of us would love to have a custom but do not have proximity to a shaper....I would have loved to buy the equivalent of a 16' Bark Vapor with a nice layering. instead I had to console myself with buying a second hand Carbon Ghost one and sell my ProElite one. I think that once you have come to really like a shape for your own use, after board hoping for a while, then it makes total sense to go for a custom based on a variation of the shape you like.
Yeah, when I buy a production 14ft board these days it is with the intention in mind of getting a custom unlimited version of it made in due course. The 14ft is just a prototype, in effect. And then Iíll sell the 14ft and hold onto the better-made, tailor-made, stronger, faster, nicer to paddle unlimited for years, long after the cheap construction of the production board has fallen apart. Itís a shame that I canít race an UL in this country (with the exception of one downwind race I think). But thatís just the price you pay to have a board that maximises your paddling enjoyment, I guess.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 10:33:36 AM
Yeah, when I buy a production 14ft board these days it is with the intention in mind of getting a custom unlimited version of it made in due course. The 14ft is just a prototype, in effect. And then Iíll sell the 14ft and hold onto the better-made, tailor-made, stronger, faster, nicer to paddle unlimited for years, long after the cheap construction of the production board has fallen apart.

I'm right there with you. The only difference, I don't buy that 14 board. Instead I went on vacation where I can heavily test all the "best in category" boards in different widths and various conditions,
take  mental notes as well as physical notes and put it into my  custom UL.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 10:47:18 AM
Itís a shame that I canít race an UL in this country (with the exception of one downwind race I think). But thatís just the price you pay to have a board that maximises your paddling enjoyment, I guess.

As for the racing, I just enter race as a 14, but bring my UL. I'm in it for the fun anyway, I believe you're too. If you happen to win, well, deal with that when it happens. ;)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 12:30:10 PM
Yeah, I was thinking of doing that. Iím not likely to be anywhere near the podium anyway, unless maybe there happens to be an age division suitable for me. What I didnít want to do was go to the trouble of turning up and then being told I couldnít paddle because I had an illegal board.

Ukgm could get an UL board and then hire me and my buddies with ULs to make up a category, and then heíd get line honours every time :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 20, 2018, 12:47:45 PM
Yeah, I was thinking of doing that. Iím not likely to be anywhere near the podium anyway, unless maybe there happens to be an age division suitable for me. What I didnít want to do was go to the trouble of turning up and then being told I couldnít paddle because I had an illegal board.

Ukgm could get an UL board and then hire me and my buddies with ULs to make up a category, and then heíd get line honours every time :)

I do that for the two/three races I participate every year. All I have done before registering is to send an email to the organizer (we are a small community here) and asked them to confirm UL welcome. They would usually send me back an email saying that I was welcome on my Ace-GT but in case of been first, I might not receive the prize. I reassure them that having been first only once in the past few years, there was no risk at all and that I would gladly surrender any price or right to brag very willingly. The big news is that our brand new downwind race coming this summer....as an UL class......Having a sponsor that sell UL boards might have helped :-)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 01:33:14 PM
I think that weíve all agreed from the start of SUP that the ďnew model every yearĒ SOP from the likes of Starboard has been unhelpful for customer and retailer alike.

Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.


A fair point. A lot of my reasons came mainly down to resale value (I can resell a Starboard in a week or two and take less hit than any other brand - a custom is all but worthless and impossible to sell on over here). I was offered two team rides this year but both were on boards that would have hurt my results. I instead bought one secondhand that delivered time trial PB's quickly fora 2017 board that I bought for 33% of its RRP. Yes, it was a compromise but a good board and was a wallet friendly option.

I'll likely move onto another board next year and I'm undecided on what that would be yet. The Nelo may well be it but I'm just as likely to hold out for a secondhand Sprint 2018. Being educated is one thing but we've all got wallets to defend too !

It's a fair point as well. The point I'm making is using your knowledge to come up with a timeless design that works for you and lasts for years. It's doable, take a look at the SIC Bullet.
Once you've reached a certain level and identified the most fulfilling aspects of the sport and then tested pretty much every concept out there, I'm pretty sure you can make it work.

I didn't dive into the economics of the board resell arena but i'm pretty sure you're loosing money every year and still end up with a compromised product. You still have to come up with
a hefty sum every year, 33% or not. And if your board got damaged, a possibility likely to happen on those egg-shell boards you'll likely kiss your resell value goodbye.

Yep, all true again. Youíre not wrong. Iím more uncertain on going to a custom shaper. One, I donít know that many Iíd trust and at my stage of development, Iím not actually sure what to ask for.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 01:35:15 PM
Yeah, I was thinking of doing that. Iím not likely to be anywhere near the podium anyway, unless maybe there happens to be an age division suitable for me. What I didnít want to do was go to the trouble of turning up and then being told I couldnít paddle because I had an illegal board.

Ukgm could get an UL board and then hire me and my buddies with ULs to make up a category, and then heíd get line honours every time :)

The head of the dart race is the only race left in the UK that accepts ULís now. I keep getting tempted to race one but itís such a big event now, I donít want to lose it to an experiment I canít capitalise on anyway. A damn shame as thatís one project Iíd love to play around with.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 01:51:03 PM
Yeah, I was thinking of doing that. Iím not likely to be anywhere near the podium anyway, unless maybe there happens to be an age division suitable for me. What I didnít want to do was go to the trouble of turning up and then being told I couldnít paddle because I had an illegal board.

Ukgm could get an UL board and then hire me and my buddies with ULs to make up a category, and then heíd get line honours every time :)

The head of the dart race is the only race left in the UK that accepts ULís now. I keep getting tempted to race one but itís such a big event now, I donít want to lose it to an experiment I canít capitalise on anyway. A damn shame as thatís one project Iíd love to play around with.
When I get my next UL (which will be an all-waters race board, hopefully), youíll have to come and give it a go. Then youíd have something to base your own order on. A guy with your power and stamina on an UL would absolutely crush everyone, including other people on an UL.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 01:56:31 PM
I donít know that many Iíd trust and at my stage of development, Iím not actually sure what to ask for

Now that's a great topic for a thread here. Leave it with Area 10 and supuk to sort things out ;D
Also, it would be a great read.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 02:02:19 PM
I donít know that many Iíd trust and at my stage of development, Iím not actually sure what to ask for

Now that's a great topic for a thread here. Leave it with Area 10 and supuk to sort things out ;D
Also, it would be a great read.

Yeah we could sort him out for sure. And document the design and building of ukgmís ďgiant killerĒ board :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 20, 2018, 02:28:06 PM
Yeah we could sort him out for sure. And document the design and building of ukgmís ďgiant killerĒ board :)

Based on the size of ukgm, I would use another expression than "sort him out" :-)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 02:43:51 PM
Yeah we could sort him out for sure. And document the design and building of ukgmís ďgiant killerĒ board :)

Based on the size of ukgm, I would use another expression than "sort him out" :-)
:) :) Yes, I meant ďsort him out with a board designĒ not the other meaning of the phrase! Ukgm could probably pop my skull like a pimple between his thumb and forefinger alone.

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 21, 2018, 05:09:30 AM
Yeah we could sort him out for sure. And document the design and building of ukgmís ďgiant killerĒ board :)

Based on the size of ukgm, I would use another expression than "sort him out" :-)
:) :) Yes, I meant ďsort him out with a board designĒ not the other meaning of the phrase! Ukgm could probably pop my skull like a pimple between his thumb and forefinger alone.

I've got a video about to come out in a week or two for one of the main british SUP websites. I'll let you decide if I'm more Bridget Jones than Vinnie Jones when that one comes out....  ;D
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 21, 2018, 05:10:44 AM
I donít know that many Iíd trust and at my stage of development, Iím not actually sure what to ask for

Now that's a great topic for a thread here. Leave it with Area 10 and supuk to sort things out ;D
Also, it would be a great read.

It's certainly a tempting concept.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 22, 2018, 12:37:39 AM
Part of my current thinking is this, if SUP follows the guidance of rowing and kayaking (in that ďthe percentage loss of speed is one sixth the percentage increase in massĒ), My current level of weight loss from 2017 and the weight reduction of moving from my allstar to the Lightsignature (circa 10kg total) should yield a 1.5% or circa 0.10-0.14kph increase in flatwater speed for me (and that's not including any hydrodynamic gain of that board over the more allwater designed allstar).

That's a major upshift in performance as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 12:45:02 AM
Couple of facts you may want to consider:
The new Nelo 14x23 is said to be currently less than 8.5 kilos.
Even based on about 10kg for the board, and based on your math, the 1.5% equates to about 1.5 minutes ahead of competition on an average 20km race. One and a Half minute is a huge win.

How about if I tell you that a "standard" 14x25" board will eventually be much lighter, like 7 or 8 kilos?
How does your math look with a 8-kilogram board, including the fin?

Taking this to the next level, not even I could do the math under DW conditions, however:
Take an 8 kg board on your favorite 20km Downwind run, how many times are you "accelerating the total mass"???

Typically, on my surfski, I estimate about 300 distinct accelerations - and it's been made abundantly clear to me that this task is much easier with a 9 kg surfski than with a 14 kg ski.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 22, 2018, 01:45:13 AM
1) One and a Half minute is a huge win.

2) How about if I tell you that a "standard" 14x25" board will eventually be much lighter, like 7 or 8 kilos?
How does your math look with a 8-kilogram board, including the fin?

3) Typically, on my surfski, I estimate about 300 distinct accelerations - and it's been made abundantly clear to me that this task is much easier with a 9 kg surfski than with a 14 kg ski.
1) That's enough for me to win regional races and place in the top 5 of the biggest races in our country.

2) That's another reason I held off as I assumed they are still perfecting the lay up.

3) Whilst I agree with you, the limited information in kayaks and rowing doesn't support the gain is that great (see the formula I quoted). However, SUP may well be different due to its lower cruising speed and its higher deceleration per stroke compared to those other craft (I've measured this using a smart phone accelerometer). I'm personally inclined to agree with you.

The real question is whether a paddler could handle this specific design of board on a busy start line. Of that I remain unsure (and any footage you find of this board always shows it alone or in the lead so its hard to tell). Just out of interest, do you have a relationship with this company ?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 01:59:23 AM
Since SUP clearly decelerate SO MUCH after each stroke, the weight factor (lack of weight in this case) would seem far more important than we think. Smaller paddlers like myself may notice that weight difference even more.

One thing is crystal clear to me:
Take any board, or simply take your favorite craft - reduce its weight by 8 pounds and see the result.

BUSY START LINE?
I can't say. Heck, at this point, I really wish there were more than 5 or 10 images of the board. And how is it that people don't understand the importance of communication on their products? This is 2018!!!!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 22, 2018, 03:58:15 AM
I doubt that the speed gain in the real world from dropping the weight of the board will be anything like as big as you think. Sadly. But Iíd love to collect some data on that.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 22, 2018, 06:30:01 AM
I doubt that the speed gain in the real world from dropping the weight of the board will be anything like as big as you think. Sadly. But Iíd love to collect some data on that.

It certainly hasn't in surf ski's, kayaks and rowing shells (there is published data out there on those). With SUP I don't know. Mind you, some good news is that I've just been contacted and offered a Nelo to trial for a bit !
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 22, 2018, 07:10:29 AM
It will be interesting to see what you think of the Nelo.

Btw, is ďNeloĒ pronounced ďkneeloĒ or ďnelloĒ (as in hello)?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 07:12:25 AM
I don't know about top notch racers. For me, average shape paddler with plenty of experience, a lighter surfski has proved an average increase of 0.5 km/h - not about, not sort of, BUT an overall increase average of 0.5 km/h.

Surfski tested extensively were:
Epic V8 (15 kilos vs 11 kilos)
Epic V10 (12 kilos vs 9.8 kilos)
Nelo 520 (12.5 kilos vs 10 kilos)
Nelo 560L (13 kilos vs 11.5 kilos)

If the exact same SUP board yields ANYTHING close to that because it's light, I will be a very happy camper!!!
(and than add the joy of board handling when it comes to a super light board, add durability and the works - and I am more than ever pretty certain to have found something "interesting")
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 07:13:05 AM
Congrats on getting a Nelo (NAY-LOW)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 22, 2018, 07:34:34 AM
Congrats on getting a Nelo (NAY-LOW)
Ah yes, of course. Nay-Low. Heigh Ho, heigh ho, itís off to work we go, on a Nelo.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 07:55:14 AM
That's right.
You'll have a mellow Nelo Day :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Quickbeam on February 22, 2018, 08:27:52 AM
Just out of interest, do you have a relationship with this company ?

Photofr,
Not an issue, but I'm also curious?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 22, 2018, 09:08:09 AM
Just out of interest, do you have a relationship with this company ?

Photofr,
Not an issue, but I'm also curious?
Sounds like we might be needing to ask ukgm that same question too :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 09:11:46 AM
Nope - No - and NOPE.

I was a rep for Nelo, I took part introducing all Nelo surfskis in France for about 2 years. I sold my last surfski about a year before leaving the company, so needless to say, when it was time to quit, I had a choice to make - and what ski(s) to purchase.

It was down with two companies: I simply chose Nelo because of construction, fit (near perfect on my Nelo 560M), and durability. I thought I was going to get a stellar deal, especially since I ended up purchasing a new ski for my wife as well as a K2 for the both of us. The whole thing cost me an arm and a leg (but think of it as an investment for good health).

Since you ask, I will emphasise this:
I was going to get a deal on the skis but didn't.
I was going to get free shipping as well - but ended up paying full shipping price as well.
Regrets? Of course... for the money, but I'd do it again.

I am no longer associated with:
Starboard SUP
Braca Paddles
Nelo Surfskis

I have never been associated with:
Nelo SUP

Meanwhile, and this should tell you a lot:
Because of durability (or lack thereof) I have decided to never purchase another board made with styrofoam.
I can paddle any surfski on planet earth - I have chosen a Nelo.
I can paddle any paddle on earth - some providing more enjoyment than others - but I paddle exclusively Braca paddles - EVEN FOR SUP.

That should clear the air a little. CHEERS!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 22, 2018, 10:24:44 AM
Just out of interest, do you have a relationship with this company ?

Photofr,
Not an issue, but I'm also curious?
Sounds like we might be needing to ask ukgm that same question too :)

Nope. However, for purposes of transparency, I did informally speak to Lightsignature by email last year a few times to get as much info as I could about the board and the UK Nelo kayak rep is a contact of mine (and this is now how I've managed to access one to trial).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 22, 2018, 10:52:42 AM
Itís a shame they donít seem to have any pics of the bottom of the Nelo on the website (?). I hope this turns out to be a good design, and strong and durable. Iíve had enough of spending a small fortune on race boards where the standard of construction is so poor that you have to ask yourself if itís fit for purpose. If every little glancing blow when racing ends up in a $$$ bill, can a board be considered fit for itís advertised use? Rubbing is racing, as they say.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Quickbeam on February 22, 2018, 11:26:17 AM
Nope - No - and NOPE.

I was a rep for Nelo, I took part introducing all Nelo surfskis in France for about 2 years. I sold my last surfski about a year before leaving the company, so needless to say, when it was time to quit, I had a choice to make - and what ski(s) to purchase.

It was down with two companies: I simply chose Nelo because of construction, fit (near perfect on my Nelo 560M), and durability. I thought I was going to get a stellar deal, especially since I ended up purchasing a new ski for my wife as well as a K2 for the both of us. The whole thing cost me an arm and a leg (but think of it as an investment for good health).

Since you ask, I will emphasise this:
I was going to get a deal on the skis but didn't.
I was going to get free shipping as well - but ended up paying full shipping price as well.
Regrets? Of course... for the money, but I'd do it again.

I am no longer associated with:
Starboard SUP
Braca Paddles
Nelo Surfskis

I have never been associated with:
Nelo SUP

Meanwhile, and this should tell you a lot:
Because of durability (or lack thereof) I have decided to never purchase another board made with styrofoam.
I can paddle any surfski on planet earth - I have chosen a Nelo.
I can paddle any paddle on earth - some providing more enjoyment than others - but I paddle exclusively Braca paddles - EVEN FOR SUP.

That should clear the air a little. CHEERS!

Thanks Photo!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 12:49:42 PM
Itís a shame they donít seem to have any pics of the bottom of the Nelo on the website (?). I hope this turns out to be a good design, and strong and durable. Iíve had enough of spending a small fortune on race boards where the standard of construction is so poor that you have to ask yourself if itís fit for purpose. If every little glancing blow when racing ends up in a $$$ bill, can a board be considered fit for itís advertised use? Rubbing is racing, as they say.

Each year, I am thinking: "we have so much technology at our fingertips..." and every year, I am blown away at how some companies just ignore communicating on their products. Fewer representatives is one thing, but fewer descriptions, fewer explanations, and fewer photos make NO SENSE.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 23, 2018, 12:40:46 AM
Itís a shame they donít seem to have any pics of the bottom of the Nelo on the website (?). I hope this turns out to be a good design, and strong and durable. Iíve had enough of spending a small fortune on race boards where the standard of construction is so poor that you have to ask yourself if itís fit for purpose. If every little glancing blow when racing ends up in a $$$ bill, can a board be considered fit for itís advertised use? Rubbing is racing, as they say.

Each year, I am thinking: "we have so much technology at our fingertips..." and every year, I am blown away at how some companies just ignore communicating on their products. Fewer representatives is one thing, but fewer descriptions, fewer explanations, and fewer photos make NO SENSE.

Agreed. Digital communication is now everything. Companies should really be told they won't sell a thing now unless they allocate resources to a constant drip feed of information. The Nelo link is a huge brand in paddlesports but their attempt at promoting it outside of Germany is very poor at best. The board has been out for a year and chuck it into Google and there is literally nothing on it.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 23, 2018, 02:11:59 AM
Well, theyíre not really serious about it, are they? This is what happens when a company who specialises in one type of watercraft dabbles in SUP. Weíve seen it a few times over the last 10 years or so. Itís the same as the way the ICF will treat SUP... an afterthought, a poor relation.

On another topic, reverse noses are interesting, and itís easy to understand the theory as regards reducing pitching and going upwind. But how do they load up as you approach hull speed? Do you have to step back a little bit to lift for the bow wave or does it push through it (if you are strong enough to do it)?

https://youtu.be/NU-keh72kQg

Thereís certainly some ďporpoise powerĒ on display here :)

Will be interesting to see what the ďHeigh-ho Nay-LoĒ bow does at full chat like this.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 23, 2018, 02:56:32 AM
Couple of things come to mind.

Reverse bows are fantastic for sheer speed on dead flat water.
For all-around use, I would go with a surfski bow - any time, any day (if given the choice).
Surfski bows aren't the fastest on dead flat water (reverse bow seemingly are), but they are still plenty fast on dead flat.
The slowest bow on flat water would be that of an Ace or that of a traditional surfboard, or my dining table. 
Surfski bows do very well in ANY Ocean condition - and so would make an ideal candidate for SUP.
Sadly, no one is really giving us a real surfski bow for SUP - yet.
However, we are now getting one of the best surfski construction ever - for SUP.

On a different note, THANKS for sharing that video. I was the first guy taking photos from the water that day.

Here's the fastest paddler that year:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-May-27-Editors-Choice/i-fk7H9LJ/2/e35d2fcd/X2/sprints-favorites-0055-X2.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-May-27-Editors-Choice/i-fk7H9LJ/A)

TYPICAL SURFSKI BOW
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-qfPH9Dh/0/b3c1141d/XL/BZH%20Technical%20%281%29-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-qfPH9Dh/A)

WHAT THE BOW LOOKS LIKE AT 10km/h
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-jZK5k5P/0/cb7a0190/XL/damien%20%2819%29-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-jZK5k5P/A)

WHAT THE BOW LOOKS LIKE AT 15km/h
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-J5tnrCL/0/71c38288/XL/BZH%20Technical%20%286%29-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-J5tnrCL/A)

WHAT THE BOW LOOKS LIKE AT 25+ km/h
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-3BB5543/0/ce439929/XL/nelo%3Dportivy-0016-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-3BB5543/A)

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 23, 2018, 03:01:08 AM
However, I want to note that I do not have enough experience in OPEN WATER with a reverse bow.

SUP (and surfski) builders should however take a look at the two following designs from Revo Surfskis.
The bow is super interesting.
Even more so, the hull - DO CHECK OUT the hull on their website.
http://revokayaks.com.au

They are built a little on the heavy side, but the design is amazingly stable - for any given width.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 23, 2018, 03:47:37 AM
So when you are talking about a ďsurfski bowĒ you mean an axe bow, right? If so, how is the axe bow on a surfski different from that implemented on boards like the Bark Dominator etc?

Oh, I can tell you that reverse (or more commonly ďinvertedĒ) bows do very well upwind  in small chop and is fine downwind in small stuff. But the board gets completely swamped going upwind in bigger stuff unless you get well back, and if you pearl it going downwind in big stuff you are gonna need an acqualung 😀 Donít ask me how I know this...
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on February 23, 2018, 09:07:13 AM
Yeah we have hashed this over before.  Dom deep vee vs AS cutting boof.  Think SUP hollow surfski design and tough construction with super sharp deep vee and completely rounded smooth simple bottom.  Best cutting entry much sharper than the Dom.  Completely silent without the mega splash of spoon boof designs.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 23, 2018, 09:29:05 AM
Ah, ok well if photofr was just talking about an axe bow (albeit an extreme one) then we know exactly why these bows arenít used much in SUP racing these days, whereas many of the early race SUPs had them. Itís because (a) they donít draft great, (b) they weathervane (the difference between a 14ft race SUP and a surfski being a rudder); (c) they add roll (compared with a planing type nose) so the board needs to be wider in the middle for a given degree of stability, which makes it harder to get a technically good stroke on them; (d) they donít downwind well.

But for going fast on your own in flat water or in mild conditions and straight upwind they are really great.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: warmuth on February 23, 2018, 09:46:43 AM
  Flat water racing is rarely flat water racing in practice. Almost no races are time trials either. Manufacturers donít offer less and less flat water only boards for no reason. Small market of a small market.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 23, 2018, 10:02:54 AM
  Flat water racing is rarely flat water racing in practice. Almost no races are time trials either. Manufacturers donít offer less and less flat water only boards for no reason. Small market of a small market.
Yeah, if you want a board to paddle on your own in flat windless conditions and your balance is decent, then an axe bow board is really great.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 23, 2018, 10:19:43 AM
FOR YOUR OWN FLAT WATER ENJOYMENT
Take the THINK SUP, lower that deck by several inches (well below water level even) and simply reduce some of its width and you'd have a killing machine for:

Flat + upwind + dare I say DW

FOR EVERYDAY RACING
Take the exact same board, flatten the hull in strategic places, add couple of rails / channels if you wish to add even more stability and I assure you that you will have one heck of a fun board.

THINK may just have released their board "too early" - based on human's natural evolution ahahah

In the meantime, I am dreaming of my new Nelo board.
In the meantime: Big paddling weekend coming up - with my slug.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 23, 2018, 10:36:33 AM
I think that the significant "lowering the deck to water level" is the mandatory and missing piece in the design.
Several races have used to some extend Think sup in some of our local race (where flat happen only once in a blue moon) and did not perform significantly better and have changed design/brand. I do not see any Think sup except maybe one in these races.

https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/nvn/sgd/d/think-xor-sup-20-off/6453783613.html (https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/nvn/sgd/d/think-xor-sup-20-off/6453783613.html)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on February 23, 2018, 10:51:23 AM
At 28 the rounded Think was comparable in speed to the original triple concave AS25.  I sprinted a few times with my buddy to check firsthand.  For long distance and lower underwater form drag -> the Think was loads better.  Glide was amazing and efficiency seemed much better and easier.  Was very easy to maintain a fast pace and speed. 

Whereas the AS25 accelerated quickly -> but then quickly decelerated with all the drag of the cutting boof complex underwater shape and fat tail.  Yeah for me would swap my Dom for the Think.  Is a really nice deep vee design with a constant roll.  Wanted Daryl to make a hollow 26 but he said there was no market for that.  But for pure paddling pleasure without buoy turns and such -> the Think captures the essence of flat paddling for me.  Def is not optimized for mass starts and wash as the super sharp entry self steers a ton.  Is super easy to go straight like the Dom.

Smooth silent operator built for straight line distance and max glide.  Is a bit of a handful DW -> but nothing is perfect.  ;)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 23, 2018, 11:38:10 PM
So when you are talking about a ďsurfski bowĒ you mean an axe bow, right? If so, how is the axe bow on a surfski different from that implemented on boards like the Bark Dominator etc?

Oh, I can tell you that reverse (or more commonly ďinvertedĒ) bows do very well upwind  in small chop and is fine downwind in small stuff. But the board gets completely swamped going upwind in bigger stuff unless you get well back, and if you pearl it going downwind in big stuff you are gonna need an acqualung 😀 Donít ask me how I know this...

I didn't want to bring back the bow debate again - honest, wasn't my intention!
AXE BOW
I don't really want to say Axe bow, mainly because I don't think axes have a nice-enough flowing curve (even though sometimes they do). Best keep the language that I have taught: surfskis have piercing bows that can surf quite well.

Since a picture is like a 1000 words, perhaps this will better explain. Note: this isn't your average ski. It's ONLY 5.20 meters long, and it's 52cm in width. I am using this particular surfski as an example because it's so close to real-life dimensions that would work for us on a SUP.

Last, but not least:
Yes the bow is piercing through the water very quietly.
No it doesn't immediately flare out like OLDER SUP using a similar nose - and I think this will make a huge difference.
Yes, the front end goes from "pointy" to "round" BUT then quickly goes to flat for strategic stability areas.
Here are two photos to show the above.

NOTICE THE VERY NARROW BOW
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-520/i-WLcx92h/0/1259e584/X2/nelo-surfski-520-0001-X2.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-520/i-WLcx92h/A)

LOOK CAREFULLY AT THE FLATTEN AREAS
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-July-28-Port-Louis/i-LKhczdH/1/f2feecb5/XL/port-louis-0031-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-520/i-LKhczdH/A)

OVERALL VIEW
(please imagine the same thing with a flat standing area, and about 4 cm more in width)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-Jun-15-Nelo-SURFSKI/i-4qdFP5n/1/13fb80a9/XL/1-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-520/i-4qdFP5n/A)

... and that's where I believe Nelo will go when they design their next SUP.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 24, 2018, 02:42:16 AM
The very sharp or pointed entry axe-type bow has been tried before. For instance thereís one of the versions of the Fanatic Strike.

https://www.seabreeze.com.au/img/photos/stand_up_paddle/9643573.jpg

If Nelo make a SUP with a bow like this it will he fast in flat water when the paddler is alone. But they wonít sell many. For the reasons why, I refer you to my previous post. Not many paddlers who are serious enough about SUP to buy an Uber-expensive board (a) donít race, and (b) paddle only in windless pure flat water.

The lack of sales, the lack of versatility, and the sheer tippiness and overspecialisation would probably kill it off, unfortunately. But not before youíve had good fun berating us with stories about how we should be paddling what you paddle  even if we arenít your dimensions, donít paddle in your conditions, and want a board that performs well in a majority of races, including ones in the ocean, that have buoy turns, and require drafting. :)

This is one way in which racing can unfortunately negatively impact upon the paddling pleasure of those that donít race, but who donít want to ďtourĒ with the contents of half an apartment on board either. But the brands have to make what sells. And boards with bows like the Strike have remained largely unloved and unbought.

But maybe before Heigh Ho Nelo discover this they will make a few that will gain a cult following on the used market for a few years.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 24, 2018, 04:33:38 AM
At face value, the Nelo isn't really understanding the nature of current SUP racing. I'm still of the mind that most paddlers are better off going with a narrower all water board (like an Allstar) than the tippier flatwater board (that would likely be slightly wider). However, as far as the UK goes, womens racing and mens racing are slightly different. Women's racing has less numbers so is more of a time trial whereas male racing is becoming more of a bike race.

......However, it will be well suited to the upcoming ICF formats I was told about yesterday.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 24, 2018, 05:43:22 AM
......However, it will be well suited to the upcoming ICF formats I was told about yesterday.
Ok, spill the beans!

Dull time trials would be much easier to train for, and to hold for the Olympics. Refereeing an Olympic event that was like the PPG/BOP with Kai/Connor etc knocking seven bells out of each other and buoys coming free from its moorings etc would be a nightmare.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 24, 2018, 07:14:48 AM
......However, it will be well suited to the upcoming ICF formats I was told about yesterday.
Ok, spill the beans!
Dull time trials would be much easier to train for, and to hold for the Olympics.

"Dull" that is an understatement if any....
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 24, 2018, 07:55:53 AM
......However, it will be well suited to the upcoming ICF formats I was told about yesterday.
Ok, spill the beans!
Dull time trials would be much easier to train for, and to hold for the Olympics.

"Dull" that is an understatement if any....
Yeah but thatís absolute fine: it will accelerate the split between inland flat water people and the ocean people, and the downwinders (and occasionally the surfers) from both environments can keep doing what they are doing.

We were probably never going to find a way to keep together, competitively, the flat water ďgym bunny hot off the ergometerĒ types and the ocean thrill-seekers anyway. As this thread and others on the Zone have demonstrated, the mindsets and what they want out of SUP are too far apart.

Anyway, if social media in the UK is anything to go by, the biggest thing in SUP right now is ďSUP datingĒ and ďsingles nightsĒ. I guess it wonít be long before the first baby conceived on a SUP comes along :)

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 24, 2018, 07:58:34 AM
I guess it wonít be long before the first baby conceived on a SUP comes along :)

Hence the need for wider stable boards.....
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 24, 2018, 11:09:06 AM
I guess it wonít be long before the first baby conceived on a SUP comes along :)

Hence the need for wider stable boards.....
:)
You just know that Starboard is going to tell you that their new bottom channels will increase your chance of conceiving ;)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on February 24, 2018, 11:18:50 AM
My new toy since yesterday

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/288c29d5c1935b718fd5c1b6fab32a3a.jpg)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 24, 2018, 11:34:36 AM
Whoa!!! More pics please!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on February 24, 2018, 12:13:36 PM
Whoa!!! More pics please!

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/912410e884c898e6dd7519bb41546913.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/5a6bc6e05358b26907be318a6fb7dd34.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/68b0fb10db08605b21887d01b81b0b38.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/15a3836fa29aa2e342459715d2389ba1.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/7cc69a6e9ede1361095e800c63910e1b.jpg)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 24, 2018, 02:26:14 PM
Congratulations, that looks VERY interesting.

Looks like theyíve taken pretty much the opposite approach to the design of a race SUP that the windsurf/surf/SUP-only brands have mostly been taking.

If the ICF promote flat water time-trial race formats as a way into the Olympics,  this could be a smart move.

I look forward to hearing about your experiences with this board, for sure. Itís certainly something special.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Mil-Surf on February 24, 2018, 02:28:32 PM
THAT is a good looking board!!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 24, 2018, 11:44:23 PM
Indeed, a very nice board. My dreams are more vivid now :) :) :)
(I can't wait to get mine)

Spoke to a rider out in Germany. The resumť goes something like this:
The board is fantastic for flat water.
The board is technical in Open Ocean, but has enough rear rocker to have a blast on smaller downwind conditions.
He kept emphasising: Must Try.
That guy is nearly 90 kilos - riding a the 23" model.

From my view - and thanks to the attached photos that Mr. PROPER posted:
I find that the board is going to lose a little bit of stability with its semi-rounded hull, however, speed increase will be felt for riders who can stand on it without balance issues. The fact that the board has plenty of surface area, and the fact that the standing area seems so dug out will certainly add stability.

The Huge amount of V on the deck should also shed water nicely - when needed.
The board seems to have a little more rear rocker than I would have imagine - perhaps making it a great all around actually.


WOW - I can't wait to try this craft on flat water, but now am totally looking to try this board in Open Ocean.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on February 25, 2018, 12:41:21 AM
Unfortunately, I'm not the product testing specialist, but if you have special questions, I'll try to answer them.
I usually paddle on the Danube river. In winter there is little traffic, in summer all the more. Motor boats for the Wakesurfer, cargo ships and cruise ships make some waves.
I am 195 cm tall and weighs about 92 kg, age 53. my balance is rather mediocre, as is my paddling.
The last few months I was paddling with a Starboard Allstar 14x24.5, which was well suited for the conditions. I also did not have to swim in some local races.

The Signature is a 14x24.75 and is in the first moment much tippier than the Allstar. However, the secondary stability seems a bit better. Still I lose speed immediately, as soon as it gets wavy and I notice the legs clearly after 8-10 km.
I was able to test the 2016 model for about 50km last summer, and thus managed my fastest time on the track.
My signature weighs just under 10 kg including the fin and paddles great. It's so light and stiff that you do not want to paddle anything else after some km.
I hope I am improving so far that I master the board even in races and do not go swimming or be too slow.

Sorry for my poor English, but google helps
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 12:45:57 AM
Unfortunately, I'm not the product testing specialist, but if you have special questions, I'll try to answer them.
I usually paddle on the Danube river. In winter there is little traffic, in summer all the more. Motor boats for the Wakesurfer, cargo ships and cruise ships make some waves.
I am 195 cm tall and weighs about 92 kg, age 53. my balance is rather mediocre, as is my paddling.
The last few months I was paddling with a Starboard Allstar 14x24.5, which was well suited for the conditions. I also did not have to swim in some local races.

The Signature is a 14x24.75 and is in the first moment much tippier than the Allstar. However, the secondary stability seems a bit better. Still I lose speed immediately, as soon as it gets wavy and I notice the legs clearly after 8-10 km.
I was able to test the 2016 model for about 50km last summer, and thus managed my fastest time on the track.
My signature weighs just under 10 kg including the fin and paddles great. It's so light and stiff that you do not want to paddle anything else after some km.
I hope I am improving so far that I master the board even in races and do not go swimming or be too slow.

Sorry for my poor English, but google helps

How much faster than the allstar did you feel it was ?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 12:48:03 AM
......However, it will be well suited to the upcoming ICF formats I was told about yesterday.
Ok, spill the beans!

Dull time trials would be much easier to train for, and to hold for the Olympics. Refereeing an Olympic event that was like the PPG/BOP with Kai/Connor etc knocking seven bells out of each other and buoys coming free from its moorings etc would be a nightmare.

The final format will be publicised from late March/April apparently. However, provisionally speaking, itís looking like a 5km beach race, a long distance flatwater race and my own personal favourite, a sprint competition of a distance up to 1000m (I suspect around half of that going by their recent rule book).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 25, 2018, 01:23:12 AM
11.54 KM/H - not for 100 meters, not for 200 meters, but for an entire kilometer - that's pretty impressive in my books.

PHOTOS - Check... and thanks to you guys for sharing.
BOARD COMPARAISON - Pending
COMPETITIVE START FEEDBACK - Pending
OPEN WATER USE - Pending, but there are couple of cool photos of that board surfing

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on February 25, 2018, 01:38:50 AM

How much faster than the allstar did you feel it was ?

My fastest average speed with the Allstar on the home track (about 10 km; 1 km harbor, 4 km upstream, 4 km downstream, 1 km harbor) was 8.9 km/h.
With the Signature, which I did not know well, it was 9.3 km/h.
I think that 0.5 - 0.7 km/h higher average speed is realistic.
A paddle friend did the same course with an average of 9.7 km/h with the Signature.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 01:44:26 AM
I wonder if switching their fin out to a longer (but proven) performer like a black project Maliko might help tame it a little.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 25, 2018, 02:27:47 AM
@UKGM
That's exactly what I was thinking when I placed my order for the 14x23.

I started with a HUGE FIN on my needle nose / needle pin tail 17'6x23" - and thought I would only paddle with that fin on dead flat water.

- 3 months later, I went with the Maliko to test out Open Ocean on calmer days.
- about 9 months after getting the board, I was doing smaller downwind runs using the Tiger (a very fast fin, also from Black Project).

I am planning on using large fin surfaces should stability be out of this World - but for really rough conditions, I will still have my surfskis and/or my Ace. Only time will tell if large fins are really needed.

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE
Here's a 42km upwind / sidewind / and stronger DW on the way back - with the pin tail using the Tiger fin.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/Other/Memories/i-8XM6GBq/1/a99bd5b9/XL/UL23-Groix-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/Other/Memories/i-8XM6GBq/A)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 02:36:31 AM
I wonder if switching their fin out to a longer (but proven) performer like a black project Maliko might help tame it a little.
A longer fin with more area at the tip will certainly help a bit. Although the BP Maliko would not be my choice. But you will also lose speed.

IMO the best way to go fast with a board like this is to make sure you are in clean water, and to have very good balance skills, and practice a lot. And use a small fin.

It is lovely to see a new design and construction appearing on these pages. Under 10kg is wonderful.

Now, if theyíd only make a board that I could actually paddle, in the conditions Iíd paddle, Iíd buy one. But on this board Iíd be literally faster on an 11ft surf board. However I appreciate that that is entirely my failing, and maybe wobbly old men like me shouldnít be gracing SUP racing anyhow. A teenager whoíd grown up with SUP would be unstoppable on a board like this. Maybe itís time the old farts were culled from SUP racing, and this would be an excellent start along that road.

It sure is a lovely looking board, and itís great to see the rounded hull concept back again. This is the sort of board that would break records on the non-stop 11 Cities race, for instance, with the right rider on top.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 25, 2018, 03:24:41 AM
@AREA51
If you and I had a single task: to come up with a "revolutionary" board that would meet the needs of older paddlers, even brand new to the sport of SUP, would you not agree that a board could look like this:

Nose level: cut the water like a knife
Tail level: close the water with grace
Stability: 27" width behind the feet to ensure narrow catch
Hull level: rounded for the most speed or flat for the most amount of stability
Directional: simply place a rudder and solve it all
Weight level: under 10 kilos - even at 18 feet in length

A well designed board like the above one (or even similar) would have old folks having tons of fun racing around the younger crowd.

After playing with fins, I plan on using my 23" Nelo board until my legs can't take it, and then I plan on on biking to build more leg muscles BEFORE retiring to more stable crafts.

FYI
I don't know if you tried the Maliko fin, but ads an amazing amount of stability. Speed decrease is truly minimal. The JL fin (HUGE MONSTER THING) has more stability, but heck, it's slow as mollasses.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 03:50:06 AM
Itís also worth noting that for me personally, the tiger is no faster than the Maliko. Itís good for speed but also scaling fin to paddler torque output.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 04:23:04 AM
It is true that you need to match fin to the paddler. But in flat water that is usually dealt better with increasing the length of the base than the depth of the fin.

I have more fins than I care to think about. Embarrassingly large numbers. The Maliko (which I have, of course) is a similar design to several, and is IMO a design that doesnít solve any particular issue. Plus it is crazy heavy and crazy expensive. In flat water you wouldnít be measurably slower with the cheapo plastic FCS touring fin in my experience. Iíve got the FCS II Kalama fin on order so Iíll let you know how that is when it arrives. It looks a fairly sensible fin for you heavy pounders, and you can just swap it in and out in seconds.

The VMG Blades Mako 37 is a fast fin in flat water, I find. Maybe youíd have to step up to the 44 if you are a really big dude, but actually I could do with a slightly smaller version of the 37.

The SIC carbon weedless fins are a very good fast all-round design. Youíd be welcome to try mine ukgm: I have three of the 8.3Ē versions but donít use any of them! Instead I use the 7.0 which is plenty area for me. But Iíve only got 2 of those: they proved so popular that Europe sold out of them very quickly last time they were available. The new RS comes with the 8.3Ē unfortunately - too big for me but maybe perfect for ukgm and his ďpaddle steamer on turboĒ stroke power :)

You really should be aiming to use the smallest fin you can get away with in flat water.

One of the things that Iíve used in my custom UL is a 2+1 setup where the sides have no toe or cant. This improved the flat water speed very noticeably. I run little 50-50 trailer fins in them in flat water but if you are a heavy hitter you could use some 50/50 foil quad rears (which is what I use for downwind). supuk and I have come up with a specific fin design for this setup, and Iím waiting for him to make them. But unfortunately the material he got sent to make them out of turned out not to be suitable. So itís on his very long list of things to do.

But if you took an old board to supuk he could fit the same finbox setup that I asked for, and you could try it out. If you fit futures boxes you can use blanking strips to fill them if you donít like it, so thereís nothing much lost except the cost of the experiment. But you will like it. Using one big deep single fin is sooo 2016 ;) :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 25, 2018, 04:33:49 AM
Not to make this about fins, but worth noting to viewers & people thinking about MORE FINS:
I love my Tiger fin - it's been my favorite goto fin, and the only I used for nearly 18 months. But here's the problem: fins must be adapted to the person's weight, stroke type, the board you use, AND the conditions you paddle in.

To my great surprise, as a blunt example (and remember that my Tiger fin has been my goto fin), that fin is WORTHLESS for the following application: my 135 pounds - on the Ace 14x25 - on flatwater.

Bottom line, try a friend's new fin on your board based on the conditions you enjoy most. I think everyone should go with the smallest fin they can get by without loosing too much stability & too much tracking.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 04:37:30 AM
PS: ukgm if you wanted to see what size fin fits you best, I have 3 different sizes of the Futures Triangle Cutaway you could try. Then you remove the variables of construction and design from the equation.

Oh and btw I made a mistake with the VMG Mako sizing above. Itís the 35 I like, not the 37. IMO if you need to go above 40 sq ins in a single fin for pure flatwater then you probably need to be looking either at your technique, or get a board that suits you better (or both).

Downwind is another matter altogether, and the fin design should be completely different IMO. Having said that, I was paddling (UW, DW, crosswind) in very rippy 20-25 knot confused sea yesterday on my SIC RS and had a fin with area of only 34sq ins and I wouldnít have needed a bigger fin, it felt pretty much perfect, and the narrow base helped going crosswind a lot.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 05:50:20 AM
...and letís not forget that at the 2016 ISA World championships in Fiji, Casper Steinfath won the technical race on a fin with area of only 28 sq ins. And he will generate more power at the blade than any of us.

I get the feeling that, as with paddle blades, the trend is to be going smaller.

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on February 25, 2018, 05:56:26 AM
Going from 8.9 kph average on the AllStar to 9.3 kph average on the new board sounds very impressive.

It those kinds of gains are typical, then this rounder hull design might really catch on. Looks similar to the soft-railed NSP dugouts. Wonder how it compares with them in terms of shape details and speed.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on February 25, 2018, 06:58:00 AM
Some pictures from paddling today

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/cf085e7f850ca6c2ace8a41827f8221f.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/55d0b0997ee85b10519d799956340eb3.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/7bee1019b57387b2a9b6c2c63e4d7d57.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/3948c4e5432a089744aa56f324bf9e32.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/75e7d9b88a23b9da950395d9a40ff6ee.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/9d07911dba5080c686d8048c5ee02653.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/02d316441e897644ecf7e6fda45a7947.jpg)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 25, 2018, 08:17:20 AM
Stunning-
I just came out of the water as well - it was cold, it was still very fun and in good company, but I wish I had my Nelo board.

The images you have are some of the best photos TO DATE - and anywhere. Thanks again for sharing!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 25, 2018, 08:43:30 AM
About fins it looks like Larry has a new fin our. Wide base, short length and some flex at the tip.
It could actually be a pretty good fin for speed on flat turning to choppy.
Need to squeeze Burchas for the details:
https://www.facebook.com/larry.w.allison/videos/10213777824912942/?t=15 (https://www.facebook.com/larry.w.allison/videos/10213777824912942/?t=15)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: warmuth on February 25, 2018, 08:56:18 AM
  I still have no clue how you guys measure fins faster or slower than one another. I just got done comparing boards and swapped fins half way through, no real change. Even runs with the same fin were difficult to reproduce and that is just for .1 mile sprints. I am considering getting a small fin like a manta just to have another option to try and perhaps gain some of this hidden speed. I once tested my whiplash with different fin configurations and speed didnít  measurably change, handling did slightly.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 09:23:00 AM
  I still have no clue how you guys measure fins faster or slower than one another. I just got done comparing boards and swapped fins half way through, no real change. Even runs with the same fin were difficult to reproduce and that is just for .1 mile sprints. I am considering getting a small fin like a manta just to have another option to try and perhaps gain some of this hidden speed. I once tested my whiplash with different fin configurations and speed didnít  measurably change, handling did slightly.
Yes, the gains are small. It takes a lot of patience and time to spot speed changes, and you need a proper experimental design and ideally several paddlers and boards. However, handling differences should be pretty obvious if you are doing things like surfing or technical races.

Thereís a huge amount of BS spoken about fins. The basic principles are fairly simple. Beyond that it all gets a bit hazy. And in the final analysis, each person had their own handling preferences. For instance, many people find that long base fins aid tracking. But I donít. In fact I find it easier to keep the board going where I want it to go with a narrow base fin. I have some theories about why this might be, but I doubt anyone in the world could tell me for sure.

Yes, that Nelo looks stunning. It would be great to have a brand producing light and durable boards at reasonable prices.

Btw, this lightcorp/nelo board certainly challenges the Starboard etc myth that you canít have a proper paint job on a board and still have it light... no ďbrushed carbonĒ (aka sh**ty paint job) nonsense here!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 09:53:03 AM
  I still have no clue how you guys measure fins faster or slower than one another. I just got done comparing boards and swapped fins half way through, no real change. Even runs with the same fin were difficult to reproduce and that is just for .1 mile sprints. I am considering getting a small fin like a manta just to have another option to try and perhaps gain some of this hidden speed. I once tested my whiplash with different fin configurations and speed didnít  measurably change, handling did slightly.

As a few people know, I did manage to do this and had an online article or two on it. I now also have an open access scientific journal paper coming out in spring on the subject too.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 10:00:35 AM
...and letís not forget that at the 2016 ISA World championships in Fiji, Casper Steinfath won the technical race on a fin with area of only 28 sq ins. And he will generate more power at the blade than any of us.

I get the feeling that, as with paddle blades, the trend is to be going smaller.

Well, itís power to weight remember. I put more power out on a bike than several top drawer Tour de France competitors but then I weigh 30kg more than they do. ;-) Casper is a lot smaller than me so whether he does put out more torque than someone like me at the blade isnít guaranteed but going by when I met him last year, he looked about 20kg lighter than me and had a significantly more efficient stroke. Thatís going to help. The only reason I suspect the Maliko was fractionally better than the tiger was that the smaller fin magnified my less effective stroke. The scaling fin to paddler thing is something John Becker used to talk about if I recall correctly. Small fins are low drag but you need a great stroke to match it.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 10:25:00 AM
That board looks outstanding. Iím not sure itís beyond me but I should find out in a couple of weeks time.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 10:32:17 AM
...and letís not forget that at the 2016 ISA World championships in Fiji, Casper Steinfath won the technical race on a fin with area of only 28 sq ins. And he will generate more power at the blade than any of us.

I get the feeling that, as with paddle blades, the trend is to be going smaller.
Well, itís power to weight remember. I put more power out on a bike than several top drawer Tour de France competitors but then I weigh 30kg more than they do. ;-) Casper is a lot smaller than me so whether he does put out more torque than someone like me at the blade isnít guaranteed but going by when I met him last year, he looked about 20kg lighter than me and had a significantly more efficient stroke. Thatís going to help. The only reason I suspect the Maliko was fractionally better than the tiger was that the smaller fin magnified my less effective stroke. The scaling fin to paddler thing is something John Becker used to talk about if I recall correctly. Small fins are low drag but you need a great stroke to match it.
Well, I agree to an extent but this is only one of the factors to consider, and it might not be the most important one. Consider what happens to the fin when a board moves off its axis, first in terms of roll, and then in terms of yaw. Now consider the different effects of a fin that is (a) deep vs. shallow; (b) lots of rake vs. Upright; (c) long base vs. short base. You might want to dragging a few fins along in a deep bath to see what I mean :)

In this way, the right fin for you may be more about how much you can keep the board on an even keel (and avoid yaw). This much you will probably already accept. But it is the solution I am offering that might surprise you:

You introduce a lot of steer with a deep, raked, wide base fin if you move off an even keel (or if you yaw) and at the same time you make corrections to the direction of the nose more difficult, since a bigger fin resists correction. I see many people going for bigger, deeper and more raked fins thinking that this will improve their tracking. But actually it often has exactly the *opposite* effect. Itís counterintuitive I know, but sometimes less is more. In flatwater, big fins donít so much compensate for poor form as exaggerate it.

So if you are weaving all over the shop like a drunk with a limp, then try a smaller, narrower-based fin in combination with trying not to wobble your board.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: warmuth on February 25, 2018, 12:21:13 PM
  I was never a big fan of the ventral fin in flat water because of that. Countersteering was much harder and if the wind was blowing it was worse.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 12:28:01 PM
  I was never a big fan of the ventral fin in flat water because of that. Countersteering was much harder and if the wind was blowing it was worse.
Yes, thatís right.

Let your blade and rails do the steering for you, not your fin.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 03:06:29 PM
Going from 8.9 kph average on the AllStar to 9.3 kph average on the new board sounds very impressive.

It those kinds of gains are typical, then this rounder hull design might really catch on. Looks similar to the soft-railed NSP dugouts. Wonder how it compares with them in terms of shape details and speed.
No anecdotes yet of being mid pack in a race on one though.....
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on February 25, 2018, 03:33:51 PM
The Nelo panel vee at the tail should provide some stability but the fin box looks well forward so that may affect straight line speed.  It does look to uave a nice high quality finish to the board like the Think.  Will be interesting to get your feedback ukgm after you put it through some tests.  Bit off topic but have you had a chance to do any multi-fin tests with your All Star?  You should be in a very good position to compare the 2 boards like proper soon enough.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Larry Allison on February 25, 2018, 03:37:08 PM
Have not been here for awhile because alot of you know pretty good about fins that I taught you. But it seems people after time loose there way sort a speak, no disrespect. But while everyone is talking about fin shapes and what is right and what is wrong. The FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT THING IS FIN BOX PLACEMENT! If you don't understand that fin box placement dictates fin size and rake which dictates PERFORMANCE! Then you can forget about using the right fin! That is why it drives me crazy that people talk about my Ventral fin Concept when they never used it or they tried a version from someone else where the Fin Box was in the wrong place and didn't follow my instructions with the wrong fin. What I will say about this board company Nelo, they are the first to understand fin box place judging by where I see their fin box placed. Which means if you run a fin with a short core length and shallow with less surface area, you will burn out and spend more time in the water if you are not paddling in a Lagoon. Pretty simple fins have a purpose to balance of steering a board. As the boards become Higher volume and sit higher on water the fin will become a KEY piece and not a single fin because unless you are a balance champ then fighting a PIVOT POINT which is a single fin is a whole other issue.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 25, 2018, 03:39:31 PM
As a few people know, I did manage to do this and had an online article or two on it. I now also have an open access scientific journal paper coming out in spring on the subject too.

Don't forget to let us know about it, even if you cannot post it here for sponsoring reasons.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: warmuth on February 25, 2018, 04:09:27 PM
Have not been here for awhile because alot of you know pretty good about fins that I taught you. But it seems people after time loose there way sort a speak, no disrespect. But while everyone is talking about fin shapes and what is right and what is wrong. The FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT THING IS FIN BOX PLACEMENT! If you don't understand that fin box placement dictates fin size and rake which dictates PERFORMANCE! Then you can forget about using the right fin! That is why it drives me crazy that people talk about my Ventral fin Concept when they never used it or they tried a version from someone else where the Fin Box was in the wrong place and didn't follow my instructions with the wrong fin. What I will say about this board company Nelo, they are the first to understand fin box place judging by where I see their fin box placed. Which means if you run a fin with a short core length and shallow with less surface area, you will burn out and spend more time in the water if you are not paddling in a Lagoon. Pretty simple fins have a purpose to balance of steering a board. As the boards become Higher volume and sit higher on water the fin will become a KEY piece and not a single fin because unless you are a balance champ then fighting a PIVOT POINT which is a single fin is a whole other issue.

 Infinity may have installed my ventral fin improperly, canít claim to have ever measured it. Perhaps they did and there are only pros to using one. I experienced both pros and cons.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Larry Allison on February 25, 2018, 04:17:45 PM
Have not been here for awhile because alot of you know pretty good about fins that I taught you. But it seems people after time loose there way sort a speak, no disrespect. But while everyone is talking about fin shapes and what is right and what is wrong. The FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT THING IS FIN BOX PLACEMENT! If you don't understand that fin box placement dictates fin size and rake which dictates PERFORMANCE! Then you can forget about using the right fin! That is why it drives me crazy that people talk about my Ventral fin Concept when they never used it or they tried a version from someone else where the Fin Box was in the wrong place and didn't follow my instructions with the wrong fin. What I will say about this board company Nelo, they are the first to understand fin box place judging by where I see their fin box placed. Which means if you run a fin with a short core length and shallow with less surface area, you will burn out and spend more time in the water if you are not paddling in a Lagoon. Pretty simple fins have a purpose to balance of steering a board. As the boards become Higher volume and sit higher on water the fin will become a KEY piece and not a single fin because unless you are a balance champ then fighting a PIVOT POINT which is a single fin is a whole other issue.

 Infinity may have installed my ventral fin improperly, canít claim to have ever measured it. Perhaps they did and there are only pros to using one. I experienced both pros and cons.

You are right early on some of the Customs were done wrong. The production  boards of today are right. 20" forward of the balance point of the board to the back of the Ventral box. Mahalo, for sharing.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 25, 2018, 06:17:40 PM
The FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT THING IS FIN BOX PLACEMENT! If you don't understand that fin box placement dictates fin size and rake which dictates PERFORMANCE! Then you can forget about using the right fin!

Need to squeeze Burchas for the details:

I experienced it first hand with my new board! Fin box placement is radically different from all the other boards I have that none of my fins worked for me, and if you know me
you know I have a lot of those.

I'm specifically referring to downwind conditions, it really sucked for me with the new board and I wasn't having fun, I kept missing bumps and
connections and I felt my timing is really screwed up, so much that I could no longer blame my mediocre technic and conditioning.

Instead of boring you with all the details I'll just say that in my frustration I turned to Larry Allison, explained him the situation gave him the specs and described the results with all his other
fins that I've tried and ask him to help out. This is how the GTX came about. I'll let the results speak:

I did the same run day after day. about 5.7 mile, shallow water bay conditions with very choppy crossed-up sections, average 15 knots wind.
Attached 2 screenshots from the Garmin for comparison... Draw your own conclusions, I'll just say that the other fin was the Spartan, which was my go to fin for these conditions.

Here is a video of the day with the GTX. I won't include the video from the day with the Spartan  because it involves a lot of profanity caught on camera.

https://youtu.be/boN5djsEzkY
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 25, 2018, 06:44:35 PM
Instead of boring you with all the details I'll just say that in my frustration I turned to Larry Allison, explained him the situation gave him the specs and described the results with all his otherfins that I've tried and ask him to help out. This is how the GTX came about.

I want to be bored with the details and all the reasoning behind the design of the fin and the intended purpose. I love that kind of rationale.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 25, 2018, 09:38:14 PM
Instead of boring you with all the details I'll just say that in my frustration I turned to Larry Allison, explained him the situation gave him the specs and described the results with all his otherfins that I've tried and ask him to help out. This is how the GTX came about.

I want to be bored with the details and all the reasoning behind the design of the fin and the intended purpose. I love that kind of rationale.

I went about it the same way I did my my all-water ocean board. I needed an ocean fin that complements my shortcomings, if I'm not having fun I'm less motivated to make progress.
I tried just about any fin I thought would fit the bill (and even some I didn't), I narrowed it down to 3 fins that kind of had something going for them but just wasn't right:

1) GT Moray 8.5" deep 6.5" base - I could work with it if conditions was really lined-up but but at 39sqi felt under finned and too loose to control off the tail.
2) Ninja 10" deep 9" Base 54sqi - Felt great on lively ocean but in downwind conditions felt over finned and too much direction, the board wasn't responsive enough
3) Spartan 7.5" deep 7.75" base 50sqi - Didn't have enough roll resistance in lively water but have much better control off the tail

My thought was to build on the base of the Ninja but take it a little further at 10.5" base in order to compensate for bad timing
Then have little more thicker transition area going to the bottom end where I felt that 8.5" with the extra surface area and the
added flex profile would be deep enough to mitigate the roll and finally take the leading edge of the Spartan which is slightly
more upright for better surf feel.

As of yet, I have not had the chance to test it on lively atlantic ocean downwind conditions, but from the miles I've put on it, I can tell it's
a big improvement over any other fin I've tested for general ocean usage, I'll have my final answer when South Florida decides to grace
me with a right wind direction for doing an ocean run, unfortunately it's not a common phenomenon down here, so who knows when that might happen.

That's about as long as I can do in one go without boring my self and lose the line of thought ;)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 25, 2018, 10:12:35 PM
Is the fin box really far from the tail. I thought that the Spartan was super stable more so than the larger dolphin pivot. It is definitly rock solid when on the tail on a good fast glide on a steeper bump.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 25, 2018, 10:19:21 PM
Good to know that the moray is not enough or the tail of the 16. It was working ood with your malimo rental in the gorge
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 11:26:56 PM
The Nelo panel vee at the tail should provide some stability but the fin box looks well forward so that may affect straight line speed.  It does look to uave a nice high quality finish to the board like the Think.  Will be interesting to get your feedback ukgm after you put it through some tests.  Bit off topic but have you had a chance to do any multi-fin tests with your All Star?  You should be in a very good position to compare the 2 boards like proper soon enough.

Yep, it's been a question of weather. Until things calm down and I get stable and low wind from the west, I can't test (that's to do with providing stable conditions at my test venue). I've done lots of informal time time trials but it's just the drag test data I now need to complete my thoughts on the subject.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 02:17:44 AM
All the Larry Allison fins Iíve seen (except the Aercor) have too big a base for paddling in my local conditions. Wide base fins make quartering wind, current, and swell difficult. And we have a lot of that round here.

You canít beat a nice 10Ē Squirrel cutaway fin (or a FCS Fat Boy) in those conditions IMO. And Iím not the only one who thinks this:

http://www.longboardhouse.com/Longboard-House--Squirrel-Cutaway-Fin-8-9_p_604.html

But weíve done this one to death a thousand times, and talking about DW/ocean fins is drifting away from the topic of this thread quite a bit.

So, returning (slightly) to the topic, the K15 was the first rounded hull concept flat water SUP to be sold widely. That board had a tiny area narrow based fin. In fact it had a stupidly small fin box on it that people used to complain about because none of their fins would fit. A few locally had a new 10Ē finbox fitted so they could use a bigger area fin to dampen the inherent rolliness of the rounded (convex) hull design. 

But the designer, Jim Drake, knew a thing or two about the dynamics of flow, so this is worth bearing in mind when thinking about fins on the lightcorp/Nelo. IMO some people can cope with roll well, and even quite like it (like Travis Grant). But some find it very hard to deal with. If you are in the latter category then I donít think that adding mega-finage to the board is ever going to help you overcome that handling characteristic enough, but what it will probably do is ruin the purity of the design.

With talk of 500m sprints in flat water run by a Canoe federation, boards built by canoeists and rounded hull boards, we are of course taking a big step towards what Jim Terrell warned us about a long time ago:

http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/

But SUP has shifted since then. It has become such a broad church that divisions seem almost inevitable. So maybe it is important for the development of SUP that there is a faction that goes towards something that looks more like Olympic Sprint Canoe standing up. Maybe then those people will drop a knee and revive Olympic Sprint Canoe, because heaven only knows thatís dying off.

Then there will be total coherence in that realm: boards that look like canoes, built by people who make canoes, used in races that are run by canoeists, using formats similar to Canoe competition formats.

In this way, in time, this thread could come to have significance for the development of SUP as a competitive sport. Weíll be looking back on it and saying ďthis was the turning point: the point where SUPs built by Canoe/surfski builders started to be bought by average Joe consumers, and (fairly) ordinary racers started to express an interest in Olympic Canoe type event formatsĒ.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on February 26, 2018, 02:37:45 AM
If you are in the latter category then I donít think that adding mega-finage to the board is ever going to help you overcome that handling characteristic enough, but what it will probably do is ruin the purity of the design.

I have no idea about Finns and paddle on every board only the serial fin. One time I mounted a larger fin (Future Fin Triangle Cutaway Medium) at a 14x23 Sprint (2016) and for me the board worked not really good. Primary stability might have been a little better, but secondary stability made it too sluggish. I then switched back to the serial fin.
The LightCorp Fin is ok, but it's a little bit heavy. They work on a lighter version.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2018, 03:52:37 AM

With talk of 500m sprints in flat water run by a Canoe federation, boards built by canoeists and rounded hull boards, we are of course taking a big step towards what Jim Terrell warned us about a long time ago:

http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/

But SUP has shifted since then. It has become such a broad church that divisions seem almost inevitable. So maybe it is important for the development of SUP that there is a faction that goes towards something that looks more like Olympic Sprint Canoe standing up.

Then there will be total coherence in that realm: boards that look like canoes, built by people who make canoes, used in races that are run by canoeists, using formats similar to Canoe competition formats.


Scratch what I said. I've now found out this morning that I may well have got this all wrong and the formats may well be to everyone's liking. I'll know more soon. Or to put it another way, have a look at this:

https://www.canoeicf.com/stand-up-paddling-world-championships/esposende-viana-do-castelo-2018

..... then cross check with what other ICF sanctioned events happen to be on in Portugal on those particular dates..............
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 04:45:56 AM
Is this, is it?

http://www.icfsup2018.com/new/race_info/?tab=3

200m sprint, a beach race, and a distance ocean downwinder.

Iím sorry for you. And for Nelo, because this format (excepting maybe the sprint) is hardly going to suit the owners of board we are frothing over in this thread.

Basically, the ICF have copied the ISA format wholesale, right?

Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)

Equal prize money for men and women. So get your hula skirt on ukgm, and you might just win 250 euros :) (Well, in the sprint, anyway, maybe.)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2018, 04:48:40 AM
Is this, is it?

http://www.icfsup2018.com/new/race_info/?tab=3

200m sprint, a beach race, and a distance ocean downwinder.

Iím sorry for you. And for Nelo, because this format (excepting maybe the sprint) is hardly going to suit the owners of board we are frothing over in this thread.

Basically, the ICF have copied the ISA format wholesale, right?

Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)

Looks that way. They'll bolt it onto the longstanding Summer challenge......... sponsored by Nelo ;-)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on February 26, 2018, 04:50:40 AM
Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)

Maybe this one? http://www.light-sup.com/light-brushed-carbon-touring-race.html
But I think, it's not a Allwater.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2018, 04:55:12 AM

Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)


You mean a hollow board that is for allwater conditions ? That is an exceptionally good guess. ;-)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 04:58:50 AM
Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)

Maybe this one? http://www.light-sup.com/light-brushed-carbon-touring-race.html
But I think, it's not a Allwater.
Nice looking board. But the weight, construction and cost means it looks pretty much a direct competitor of the All Star, SIC RS etc. Good luck with that, Lightsup..
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 05:00:49 AM

Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)


You mean a hollow board that is for allwater conditions ? That is an exceptionally good guess. ;-)
Yep, thatís exactly what I meant. Hope it happens. When the Ace first came out everyone commented that it was a ďstand up CanoeĒ, so this is a logical next step.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 26, 2018, 05:17:43 AM
MY PLAN with my new Nelo board:
- Health: training, and staying in good healthy shape.
- Paddling more long distance: about 300 km per month.
- Flat water 80% (canal mostly)
- Calmer Open Ocean perhaps 20%

I really don't see myself racing for anything other than 30+ km races, therefore do not really see myself competing on many races.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 05:25:22 AM
MY PLAN with my new Nelo board:
- Health: training, and staying in good healthy shape.
- Paddling more long distance: about 300 km per month.
- Flat water 80% (canal mostly)
- Calmer Open Ocean perhaps 20%

I really don't see myself racing for anything other than 30+ km races, therefore do not really see myself competing on many races.
Living life on the edge, eh? ;) :)

Having said that, I found myself battling a F7 icy headwind yesterday, paddling alone on a canal, doing HIT-type training... kinda wondering what the hell I was doing it for though... no intention to race.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 26, 2018, 05:30:20 AM
MY PLAN with my new Nelo board:
- Health: training, and staying in good healthy shape.
- Paddling more long distance: about 300 km per month.
- Flat water 80% (canal mostly)
- Calmer Open Ocean perhaps 20%

I really don't see myself racing for anything other than 30+ km races, therefore do not really see myself competing on many races.
Living life on the edge, eh? ;) :)


Paddling, skiing, and biking mean a lot to me - and my health. So why the heck STOP ? :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2018, 05:40:48 AM

Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)


You mean a hollow board that is for allwater conditions ? That is an exceptionally good guess. ;-)
Yep, thatís exactly what I meant. Hope it happens. When the Ace first came out everyone commented that it was a ďstand up CanoeĒ, so this is a logical next step.

Your guess is accurate from what I have heard.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 26, 2018, 05:43:07 AM
You guys really think that Nelo will go the Ace (or similar) route?
I just don't see it.

From my short experience working for Nelo (two years) - you'll probably notice that they most often think outside the box. They go and try things that work, they are innovative, and aren't afraid to take chances.

Take surfskis -
The 80's brought us skis that were in the 590 cm long.
The 90's brought us some weird skis that were sometimes 650 cm long.
3 years ago, most skis found on the market were in the 640cm length - but that didn't stop Nelo.
3 years ago, Nelo came out with a ski that was 560, another that was 550, and another that was 520. Each do VERY WELL in their intended use.

Reasoning
People are likely to copy Nelo with their SUP design, when they actually design a new model - just look around and see how many people have (all of the sudden) come up with surfskis that are in the 560cm range.

Why not an Ace-type board?
The answer is simple: SURFSKI paddling started with a hull that was Ace-like. That was back some 50+ years ago. Things have evolved, and the only - ONLY restraint right now are rules that prevent you from having a rudder.

Heck, flat water kayak racing (Olympic kayaking) used to have a fin, not a rudder - but even them have changed that, although they only go in a STRAIGHT LINE.

What will Nelo do next?
Unsure, but most likely start by showing off how a SUP board can be way lighter and way stronger - for starters. Soon thereafter, Nelo may continue their paths with SUP boards that no longer look like surfboards - that, to me, would be a given, unless you want to surf. The rest is speculation, but I have my EYES WIDE OPEN and ready to take it all in.

:)  8) :o ;D
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2018, 05:59:41 AM
You guys really think that Nelo will go the Ace (or similar) route?
I just don't see it.

From my short experience working for Nelo (two years) - you'll probably notice that they most often think outside the box. They go and try things that work, they are innovative, and aren't afraid to take chances.

Why not an Ace-type board?
The answer is simple: SURFSKI paddling started with a hull that was Ace-like. That was back some 50+ years ago. Things have evolved, and the only - ONLY restraint right now are rules that prevent you from having a rudder.


What will Nelo do next?


That's not quite what I said. However, look at it it this way, I'm going to hold off buying a new board for a few more months and I don't like using Ace style boards.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 06:25:55 AM
Most of the design development in SUP has come in relation to ocean-type boards rather than flat water ones, since for the last 10 years most big races have been held in choppy waters, most of the SUP brands are ocean-based, and pretty much all the worldís elite SUPers are ocean people.

The recent iterations of all waters race boards are actually getting quite good. Iíve been hugely impressed by my new SIC RS, and even a big powerful paddler like  ukgm would be stable and comfortable paddling the 14x24.5Ē version, which would have been totally inconceivable a few years ago.

And if you are an elite paddler wanting a DW board for typical European/Oz DW conditions, then the Ace is a hugely effective speed machine. Iím selling an old battered one at the moment (14x25 carbon) and have had many enquiries. So itís still a very popular design.

So, if Nelo want to throw away all that has been learnt so far, then good luck to them. I would have thought that creating a good flat water board would be more a priority. Thatís where there is less competition.

On the ICF event, Iím a bit sad that theyíve decided to go head to head with the ISA like that, and steal their formats. Iíve actually been quite convinced by the arguments Iíve read recently for letting a inland/flat water specialist discipline emerge, that feels no shared history or allegiance with ocean boardsports, and was looking forward to watching how that developed.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 26, 2018, 06:45:08 AM

But weíve done this one to death a thousand times, and talking about DW/ocean fins is drifting away from the topic of this thread quite a bit.

So, returning (slightly) to the topic, the K15 was the first rounded hull concept flat water SUP to be sold widely...

I think we've  covered this one to death just as much ;) Point is, at this stage where board is a done deal, the only thing you can change is the
fin (you can change the deck pad too but I doubt it make much of a difference  :D )
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 26, 2018, 06:56:42 AM
There's plenty of room to grow - anytime we talk about SUP.

I am not Nelo, and I do not represent Nelo in any shape or form. Heck, I don't even know what they are developing next. I can tell you this though: there's room to grow.

For instance, the Ace-Design does very well. Heck, so well that nearly everyone has copied it to a certain degree. However, just ask yourself this: is the Ace-Design the only imaginable design on planet earth? Heck NO.

Clearly, there are more ways than one on improving anything.

What is even clearer to me - and perhaps not so apparent enough to others - is that Ace-Designs have been used in the surfski world. Let me just repeat this: Ace-Design WERE USED for surfskis. Today, and for pretty much the last 40+ years, Ace-Designs have long been replaced with much faster designs. You want to go faster in Open Ocean, go with a surfski design. You'll glide better, you'll go faster, and you'll have more fun doing it.

Saying that Ace-Design is the fastest SUP design imaginable is locking imagination into a little box.



Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2018, 07:23:07 AM

On the ICF event, Iím a bit sad that theyíve decided to go head to head with the ISA like that, and steal their formats. Iíve actually been quite convinced by the arguments Iíve read recently for letting a inland/flat water specialist discipline emerge, that feels no shared history or allegiance with ocean boardsports, and was looking forward to watching how that developed.

To be fair to them, they would have got stick if they'd gone for a rowing-esque sanitised lane knockout format so they couldn't win either way (but yes, I'm disappointed personally). Not only that, the ISA don't do official sprints or a downwind events at their worlds ? The irony being here, the proposed ICF event is more all encompassing of the ocean environment than the ISA event. Who'd have seen that one coming ?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 08:13:52 AM
the ISA don't do official sprints or a downwind events at their worlds ?

They'd have had downwinders if the weather had co-operated. The ICF will have to have a backup plan in Portugal too. Sprints, yes:
https://www.supthemag.com/photos/2017-isa-world-sup-paddleboard-championship-gallery-recap-results/

And who can forget this performance? Probably the most remarkable athletic feat I have ever seen in a SUP race (by Kai Lenny).

http://www.supracer.com/video-kai-lenny-stand-up-paddleboarding-race/

Unfortunately it looks like you can't post a direct link to a FB page here. But if you put

https://www.facebook.com

together with: /supracerr/videos/1174595722624477/

there's a video of Kai's incredible (flat water) 800m performance.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 08:21:17 AM
The irony being here, the proposed ICF event is more all encompassing of the ocean environment than the ISA event. Who'd have seen that one coming ?
Err... NO.
https://youtu.be/TLbaipKhE4U
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 08:24:14 AM
Saying that Ace-Design is the fastest SUP design imaginable is locking imagination into a little box.
Who ON EARTH is saying that? You are just putting words into our mouths now. No-one here is saying that or has said anything like it. Please let's not stray into the territory of having arguments for arguments' sake.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 26, 2018, 09:47:21 AM
Saying that Ace-Design is the fastest SUP design imaginable is locking imagination into a little box.
Who ON EARTH is saying that? You are just putting words into our mouths now. No-one here is saying that or has said anything like it. Please let's not stray into the territory of having arguments for arguments' sake.


OKAY, maybe you guys didn't say that exactly, but the following was in fact mentioned:
"Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently"

To that extent, and without trying to argue, I am simply stating that:
There is ample room for improvements on a SUP for flat water AND for Open Ocean, without the current Ace characteristics.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 11:29:01 AM
Itís hard to beat the Ace for speed in small downwind conditions if you are a serious competitor.

But I own an 14x25 carbon Ace yet have just bought an SIC RS. So that should tell you something.

And you wouldnít want an Ace for competing in the conditions shown in this vid. Here, low volume and a flat deck is king.

https://youtu.be/WSTIYCfQZAI

(Incredible footage of them surfing raceboards in that vid btw).

So no-one is arguing with you, photofr.

But the Ace is a great place to start if you were thinking about designing a rough waters board, and you were from a ďboatĒ rather than ďboardĒ background. You simply canít argue with the results, over many years. This is of course exactly what Mistral did. In fact Iíve got the actual Ace that the designers of the Mistral Equinox used as a starting point for their design. There are pencil markings of measurements all over it. The Equinox proved to be a highly effective rough waters race board.

And now of course there are clog designs everywhere. ONE, Sunova, NSP etc etc. All variations on the Ace concept, with a few variations thrown in (e.g concave vs. convex bottoms).

But maybe Nelo are e.g. going to bring out a board that is like an Ace in reverse, ie. pointy axe bow at the front, with a bit fat bulbous ass :) When the first pics of the Ace arrived many people mistook the tail for the bow :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 26, 2018, 08:46:13 PM
Is the fin box really far from the tail. I thought that the Spartan was super stable more so than the larger dolphin pivot. It is definitly rock solid when on the tail on a good fast glide on a steeper bump.

I missed that one. Yes the fin box is 38" from the tail. I too thought the Spartan would work, I've used it instead of the Dolphin Pivot on my tippy Red with good results, but it didn't do the trick for me
on the unlimited.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 27, 2018, 01:20:36 AM
the ISA don't do official sprints or a downwind events at their worlds ?

They'd have had downwinders if the weather had co-operated. The ICF will have to have a backup plan in Portugal too. Sprints, yes:
https://www.supthemag.com/photos/2017-isa-world-sup-paddleboard-championship-gallery-recap-results/

And who can forget this performance? Probably the most remarkable athletic feat I have ever seen in a SUP race (by Kai Lenny). http://www.supracer.com/video-kai-lenny-stand-up-paddleboarding-race/



there's a video of Kai's incredible (flat water) 800m performance.

True, but these aren't specifically titled events as such i.e. world sprints champions, world downwind champion, etc ? The ICF is taking a much more prescribed (or is it contrived ? - you decide) approach to SUP racing.

Your point is valid about being able to guarantee conditions to do so though but it should be noted that this championships is being bolted onto the Nelo Summer challenge event which has been run as a downwind surfski race for some years successfully. It could be argued that's the ICF doing it on the cheap (as the current event organiser will be dealing with it rather than the ICF managing a standalone event) but I can say from friends that this event is extremely well run and with a good track record. If the ICF go open entry (and that's what the insiders are telling me), then that's a smart move and one that will help get the deepest field possible without the typically political national team selections (and will also help bankroll it due to the extra numbers present).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 27, 2018, 07:47:55 AM
Is the fin box really far from the tail. I thought that the Spartan was super stable more so than the larger dolphin pivot. It is definitly rock solid when on the tail on a good fast glide on a steeper bump.

I missed that one. Yes the fin box is 38" from the tail. I too thought the Spartan would work, I've used it instead of the Dolphin Pivot on my tippy Red with good results, but it didn't do the trick for me
on the unlimited.

38" yes that is some way. BTW when measuring is it customary to measure from the back, the front or the middle of the fin box?
I remember some indications given by Larry about the depth of the fin been related with the placement of the fin box i.e. closer to the tail shorter the fin but I cannot find the post again and it might have been on FB.

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 27, 2018, 10:30:42 AM
Is the fin box really far from the tail. I thought that the Spartan was super stable more so than the larger dolphin pivot. It is definitly rock solid when on the tail on a good fast glide on a steeper bump.

I missed that one. Yes the fin box is 38" from the tail. I too thought the Spartan would work, I've used it instead of the Dolphin Pivot on my tippy Red with good results, but it didn't do the trick for me
on the unlimited.

38" yes that is some way. BTW when measuring is it customary to measure from the back, the front or the middle of the fin box?
I remember some indications given by Larry about the depth of the fin been related with the placement of the fin box i.e. closer to the tail shorter the fin but I cannot find the post again and it might have been on FB.

Yes, thatís rule of thumb but tail rocker is a factor as well.
The reason for that is the closer to tail the more interference
With the release therefor youíre force to go smaller otherwise
The board stalls.

Measurment from the back of the box.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on February 27, 2018, 11:39:47 AM
Yes, thatís rule of thumb but tail rocker is a factor as well.
The reason for that is the closer to tail the more interference
With the release therefor youíre force to go smaller otherwise
The board stalls.

That's it. Thanks for the reminder.
I always have to pay attention with my Vapor as the box is about 8 or 9 inches from the tail.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 27, 2018, 12:17:11 PM
Yes, thatís rule of thumb but tail rocker is a factor as well.
The reason for that is the closer to tail the more interference
With the release therefor youíre force to go smaller otherwise
The board stalls.

That's it. Thanks for the reminder.
I always have to pay attention with my Vapor as the box is about 8 or 9 inches from the tail.
Yes, also tail width/volume. All other things being equal (which they often arenít), it takes a bigger fin to control a bigger ass.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on February 27, 2018, 05:38:21 PM
Yes, thatís rule of thumb but tail rocker is a factor as well.
The reason for that is the closer to tail the more interference
With the release therefor youíre force to go smaller otherwise
The board stalls.

That's it. Thanks for the reminder.
I always have to pay attention with my Vapor as the box is about 8 or 9 inches from the tail.
Yes, also tail width/volume. All other things being equal (which they often arenít), it takes a bigger fin to control a bigger ass.

Yes, but less factor of depth as total fin area, which brings us back to fin box placement.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 27, 2018, 09:49:45 PM
Yes, thatís rule of thumb but tail rocker is a factor as well.
The reason for that is the closer to tail the more interference
With the release therefor youíre force to go smaller otherwise
The board stalls.

That's it. Thanks for the reminder.
I always have to pay attention with my Vapor as the box is about 8 or 9 inches from the tail.
Yes, also tail width/volume. All other things being equal (which they often arenít), it takes a bigger fin to control a bigger ass.

Yes, but less factor of depth as total fin area, which brings us back to fin box placement.
Well, it depends on the application, doesnít it? For downwinding you need a lot greater depth than for flat water. Depth will depend on rocker and fin placement (as well as how tall your fin is, of course).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 28, 2018, 01:08:22 AM
MY PLAN with my new Nelo board:
- Health: training, and staying in good healthy shape.
- Paddling more long distance: about 300 km per month.
- Flat water 80% (canal mostly)
- Calmer Open Ocean perhaps 20%

I really don't see myself racing for anything other than 30+ km races, therefore do not really see myself competing on many races.

The feedback I really want to see is what is this board like in cross-chop or in a drafting situation ?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 28, 2018, 01:25:03 AM
Perhaps the answers can be found when looking at the big picture, and since we cannot whitewater SUP, surf SUP, tour SUP, long distance SUP, flat water SUP, Downwind SUP.... with the same board, why would you want to have a single board do it all? Find me a bike that can excel with it all?!

Here's something that YOU WON'T WANT TO TAKE SERIOUSLY

My next board?
It's going to be an Ace-Like-Shape for calmer waters, because I can let someone else do all the work for 17km (while drafting him). I am hoping that conserving all that energy will allow me to sprint away near the finish. For this, I will need to ensure that my new board can excel in drafting.

I won't need to worry about glide, I won't need to worry about durability, or weight of my board - I just need to make that the guy in front of me suffers the entire way while pulling old me.

I am certain that the above attitude will enrich the sport of SUP, and even allow SUP design to flourish to its fullest.  :-[

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 28, 2018, 01:41:42 AM
1) Perhaps the answers can be found when looking at the big picture, and since we cannot whitewater SUP, surf SUP, tour SUP, long distance SUP, flat water SUP, Downwind SUP.... with the same board, why would you want to have a single board do it all? Find me a bike that can excel with it all?!

2) My next board?
It's going to be an Ace-Like-Shape for calmer waters, because I can let someone else do all the work for 17km (while drafting him). I am hoping that conserving all that energy will allow me to sprint away near the finish. For this, I will need to ensure that my new board can excel in drafting.


1) ..... because if you go to an event like the worlds, you'll need a board that may have to handle a variety of events. That's why the flatwater board market is limited (with Naish dropping the concept entirely).

2) I actually agree with this to a point. It's why I opted for a narrower Allstar this year (and one of the boards I'd consider next year would be a narrower version of the same thing). Unless you're the kind of athlete who is going to be leading the opening kilometres, you're going to need to deal with major cross chop so a flatwater board may well not be the best option for mid pack athletes. However, for those people from a cycling background, there are tactical options to getting rid of 'tail suckers'. I had a situation last year whereby I has someone sit on me for 10km. In the end, you find you can verbally coerce them to come and take a turn or to drop back or I just physically stop paddling and panic them out. At a recreational racing level, that will work.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 28, 2018, 02:03:13 AM
I can totally see middle of the pack paddlers enjoying the Nelo board as if it were meant for them. In fact, I can see the larger Nelo suitable for a great many athletes who do not race, but who enjoy THE GLIDE in calmer waters.

I'll be the judge when I get mine, but I can totally see myself drafting and even catching small bumps while using the Nelo board. Sure, it will be harder than drafting aboard an Allstar, but I have a hard time imagining that the Nelo board will be harder to draft with than say the Sprint 14x23, and even less so while using the Sprint 17'6" x 23".

The Nelo board seems to have quite a bit of rear rocker - thus perhaps opening the door to smaller DW conditions and drafting. Riders will have to adapt though, because the Nelo board is likely to feel completely differently than an Allstar board.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on February 28, 2018, 02:55:58 AM
I can totally see middle of the pack paddlers enjoying the Nelo board as if it were meant for them.

I can't..... but that's why I'd like to see the feedback of being in that scenario. Either way, with a board like this, I wouldn't hope to be stuck in the middle of the pack in the first place.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on February 28, 2018, 03:14:40 AM
I will see how many times I will swim.  ;D
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 28, 2018, 03:27:45 AM
1) Perhaps the answers can be found when looking at the big picture, and since we cannot whitewater SUP, surf SUP, tour SUP, long distance SUP, flat water SUP, Downwind SUP.... with the same board, why would you want to have a single board do it all? Find me a bike that can excel with it all?!

2) My next board?
It's going to be an Ace-Like-Shape for calmer waters, because I can let someone else do all the work for 17km (while drafting him). I am hoping that conserving all that energy will allow me to sprint away near the finish. For this, I will need to ensure that my new board can excel in drafting.


1) ..... because if you go to an event like the worlds, you'll need a board that may have to handle a variety of events. That's why the flatwater board market is limited (with Naish dropping the concept entirely).

2) I actually agree with this to a point. It's why I opted for a narrower Allstar this year (and one of the boards I'd consider next year would be a narrower version of the same thing). Unless you're the kind of athlete who is going to be leading the opening kilometres, you're going to need to deal with major cross chop so a flatwater board may well not be the best option for mid pack athletes. However, for those people from a cycling background, there are tactical options to getting rid of 'tail suckers'. I had a situation last year whereby I has someone sit on me for 10km. In the end, you find you can verbally coerce them to come and take a turn or to drop back or I just physically stop paddling and panic them out. At a recreational racing level, that will work.
Well, if I was in a race with you, and could keep up with you, Iíd just draft you all the way and then try to outsprint you at the end. If you stopped, Iíd stop. Iíd stick to you like a dingberry. You are a big powerful guy so would be a delight to draft. Thatís the nature of our current format of races. I find drafting intensely annoying. So I put a metal strip at the back of my race board, so if someone drafts me I can stop suddenly and ding the nose of their board. It then gives me great pleasure to think of their board sucking in water all the way to the end of the race :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 28, 2018, 03:55:32 AM
:)

I once took great pleasure when someone was drafting me: I took him on a huge deviation - at a leisured pace - and then it was Sprint FULL ON for 20 seconds, rest for 30 seconds, sprint full on for 20 seconds / rest / sprint / rest...

After the 3rd time doing this, the paddler seemed so happy to have managed to stick to me - but I just kept doing it. I think it was on the 5th sprint that the poor dude's breathing was a wreck.

Sadly for him, I train that way - specifically for Downwind conditions - but sadly had to apply my training to him drafting. 
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on February 28, 2018, 03:58:42 AM
I can totally see middle of the pack paddlers enjoying the Nelo board as if it were meant for them.

I can't..... but that's why I'd like to see the feedback of being in that scenario. Either way, with a board like this, I wouldn't hope to be stuck in the middle of the pack in the first place.

Perhaps you didn't read the entire sentence paragraph I posted - but perhaps I didn't explain "middle of the pack" carefully enough.

You still can't see it with :
Middle of the pack, not IN A RACE -
Middle of the pack, alone paddling, on calm waters -
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on February 28, 2018, 09:58:27 AM
:)

I once took great pleasure when someone was drafting me: I took him on a huge deviation - at a leisured pace - and then it was Sprint FULL ON for 20 seconds, rest for 30 seconds, sprint full on for 20 seconds / rest / sprint / rest...

After the 3rd time doing this, the paddler seemed so happy to have managed to stick to me - but I just kept doing it. I think it was on the 5th sprint that the poor dude's breathing was a wreck.

Sadly for him, I train that way - specifically for Downwind conditions - but sadly had to apply my training to him drafting.

I bet the 11 cities race is as much, or even more, about the camaraderie and the friends you make than race results.

Just relax and have fun. Life is way too short my friend.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on February 28, 2018, 12:40:47 PM
Yeah, just think how much fun you could have paddling that course with a bunch of friends, and enjoying fine food and a comfy warm bed each night, by not racing at all :)

Oh sorry. I forgot - paddling has to be about pain and deprivation or itís not ďrealĒ paddling :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on March 01, 2018, 12:51:31 AM
1) Perhaps the answers can be found when looking at the big picture, and since we cannot whitewater SUP, surf SUP, tour SUP, long distance SUP, flat water SUP, Downwind SUP.... with the same board, why would you want to have a single board do it all? Find me a bike that can excel with it all?!

2) My next board?
It's going to be an Ace-Like-Shape for calmer waters, because I can let someone else do all the work for 17km (while drafting him). I am hoping that conserving all that energy will allow me to sprint away near the finish. For this, I will need to ensure that my new board can excel in drafting.


1) ..... because if you go to an event like the worlds, you'll need a board that may have to handle a variety of events. That's why the flatwater board market is limited (with Naish dropping the concept entirely).

2) I actually agree with this to a point. It's why I opted for a narrower Allstar this year (and one of the boards I'd consider next year would be a narrower version of the same thing). Unless you're the kind of athlete who is going to be leading the opening kilometres, you're going to need to deal with major cross chop so a flatwater board may well not be the best option for mid pack athletes. However, for those people from a cycling background, there are tactical options to getting rid of 'tail suckers'. I had a situation last year whereby I has someone sit on me for 10km. In the end, you find you can verbally coerce them to come and take a turn or to drop back or I just physically stop paddling and panic them out. At a recreational racing level, that will work.
Well, if I was in a race with you, and could keep up with you, Iíd just draft you all the way and then try to outsprint you at the end. If you stopped, Iíd stop. Iíd stick to you like a dingberry. You are a big powerful guy so would be a delight to draft. Thatís the nature of our current format of races. I find drafting intensely annoying. So I put a metal strip at the back of my race board, so if someone drafts me I can stop suddenly and ding the nose of their board. It then gives me great pleasure to think of their board sucking in water all the way to the end of the race :)

Absolutely right. I agree.

(my board got damaged last season on the tail due to someone doing as you suggest above. Getting rid of them in the end was simple maths but I let it go on longer than I should have done).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 15, 2018, 11:48:07 PM
I finally got to try the board I ordered: the 14x23 Nelo. Here's a very brief look at what I FELT.

Before sharing my thoughts, know that they are just my thoughts, and the very first ones at that since I only spent an hour or so on the board. FYI, my board has been built, is ready ready for shipping, but should arrive next week Tuesday. In the meantime, the board that I tried was the demo board that already made its way to Northern France.

So... I get on the board thinking: it's gonna be tippy, it's gotta be tippy. To my great surprise: that thing is far more stable than my 17'6 x 23" needle nose / needle tail. Its stability far expected anything I could have thought. Anyway, that the very first thought that came to mind after just couple of strokes.

The second thought was: "the HELL" with all the people who say that a super light board is overrated. The ratio between my 60 or so kilos and this super light 8.9 kilo board was downright outstanding. My paddle, used as an anchor now has more than 5 kilos less to move ahead. That's just a huge difference - and that, my friends, has put a smile on my face (stuck grin for over an hour).

This amounted to full power ahead, unreal accelerations, ultra quiet movement through the water, and an insane glide.

Let's compare what is comparable:
This Nelo board (14x23) glides far better than my 2nd favorite 14x23 board (the SB Sprint). I mean, it's not even in the same ball-park.

Cherry on top: It's lightyears quieter in the water.

Needless to say, all the SURFSKI tests I have personally conducted on light skis vs. heavier skis over the years will transpose in the World of light SUP.

Without a doubt, I will see myself paddle my new 14x23 board in mid ocean.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 16, 2018, 01:05:42 AM
Itís great you like your new board. It does sound very interesting.

But did you actually GPS the board back to back with another? Light boards *feel* fast because our perceptual system is more sensitive to changes in speed than differences in average speed. In other words, initial impressions can be misleading, and youíd really have to try boards back to back over a fixed course in the same conditions to estimate the real size of the difference.

How does it handle for buoy turns?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 16, 2018, 01:23:41 AM
I have compared dozens of boards to my UL 17'6 x 23" - with FEELING, as well as with GPS in hand.

The GPS tests will come, but I wanted to share that quiet boards do not usually feel fast. This one FEELS super fast, and when compared to K1 paddlers, a full on sprint let me know that this Nelo board was SUPER FAST.

These K1 paddlers are used to seeing a lot of SUP paddlers - they were blown away by this board - and it wasn't because I was in my best shape... or because I am one of the fastest paddler (the opposite will be far more accurate).

Just take it for what it's worth: a feeling.
Based on that feeling, it was a pleasure to paddle this board, and this feeling was the closest to paddling a UL. That's exactly the kind of feeling I have been missing from ANY 14' board in the past. So again, for what it's worth, it's a great feeling and hard earned money well spent.

We'll all agree: a good feeling is better than a lousy one... and a good feeling makes you want to paddle more often. It's all good.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on April 16, 2018, 05:16:34 AM
...
Let's compare what is comparable:
This Nelo board (14x23) glides far better than my 2nd favorite 14x23 board (the SB Sprint). I mean, it's not even in the same ball-park.
...

impressive!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 16, 2018, 05:26:40 AM
I think we need to be aware that the placebo is going to be pretty powerful - particularly when no hard numbers are being provided. As far as rowing shells and kayaks go, it's been proposed that:

"the percentage loss of speed is one sixth (0.167%) the percentage increase in mass"

Despite their hydrodynamic inferiority, I can't see SUP's being much different to this rule. The reality is that for anything other than sprinting, the reduction in weight isn't going to produce anywhere near what you think it will. However, it is important to separate any increase in performance due to a reduction in form drag or a reduction in weight. Any talk of increased glide is going to relate to the former I think, not the latter.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on April 16, 2018, 06:28:59 AM
^ so...

how come there aren't any fat coxswains?

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on April 16, 2018, 06:32:16 AM
Light does feel great. Most especially when loading the board up on your rack or car!

Not bedunking your "placebo" argument, GM, BTW. It definitly is 90% of the game.

And BTW. The more you spend on a baord the bigger the "placebo" effect.

Edit to add:
Small light coxswains much easier to throw in the water!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 16, 2018, 07:05:22 AM
Here's for all addicts - SPORT ADDICTS

Hello, my name is Vic. I am sorry, for I am an average paddler, sort of middle of the pack on a good day. I am definitely getting older. In doing so, I am constantly finding myself looking for easier ways, and more efficient crafts.

MOST WILL AGREE
"the percentage loss of speed is one sixth (0.167%) the percentage increase in mass"

I WILL TOTALLY DISAGREE
Because of the following reasons:
1. Extensive surfski testing has revealed that with my body weight (about 60 kilos) - I find that removing just 5 kilos from a 15 kilos ski increases my average speed an average of 0.9 km/h (that's nearly 1 km an hour difference!!!)
2. Because SUP is so inefficient compared to surfskis, I find that the beginning of each stroke is dedicated to getting my board back to speed, and 2/3 of my remaining stroke is where I get speed. Because of this, a SUPER LIGHT board allows far less effort at the beginning of the stroke, where I am now able to get real power RIGHT AWAY.

Keep it simple: just try to place an 8 kilo bag between your feet and take a GPS sample. Let's see if your loss of speed is really only 0.167% - based on a two hour paddle. Chances are, your data will reveal something very different than 0.167% loss - on anything longer than 30 minutes. The 0.167% rule is based on schematics dating back - way back - most likely derived by lazy people who didn't want to actually paddle for 3 or 4 hours while weighted down.

Heck, don't take my words for it... just go and make your own data by adding extra weight to your board. Keep in mind that when I add 5 kilos to my board, it's like most of you guys adding 8 to 9 kilos to your board. So go ahead, see real data that pertains to a "real you".
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 16, 2018, 07:20:11 AM
^ so...

how come there aren't any fat coxswains?

Because the starting acceleration is a major part of rowing and a significant percentage of its race length. You don't want excess mass when you've got to start from rest. SUP races aren't the same.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 16, 2018, 07:31:38 AM
"the percentage loss of speed is one sixth (0.167%) the percentage increase in mass"

I WILL TOTALLY DISAGREE
Because of the following reasons:
1. Extensive surfski testing has revealed that with my body weight (about 60 kilos) - I find that removing just 5 kilos from a 15 kilos ski increases my average speed an average of 0.9 km/h (that's nearly 1 km an hour difference!!!)

2. Because SUP is so inefficient compared to surfskis, I find that the beginning of each stroke is dedicated to getting my board back to speed, and 2/3 of my remaining stroke is where I get speed. Because of this, a SUPER LIGHT board allows far less effort at the beginning of the stroke, where I am now able to get real power RIGHT AWAY.

3) The 0.167% rule is based on schematics dating back - way back - most likely derived by lazy people who didn't want to actually paddle for 3 or 4 hours while weighted down.

4) Heck, don't take my words for it... just go and make your own data by adding extra weight to your board. Keep in mind that when I add 5 kilos to my board, it's like most of you guys adding 8 to 9 kilos to your board. So go ahead, see real data that pertains to a "real you".

1) The noise in the data of outdoor testing on rough water would create error that could swamp the results. Without a good number of runs and the stated error bars, I think caution is advised. Produce the GPS data and lets review it.

2) This is possible in my mind - you might well be right in principle. I haven't got robust enough data for me to say otherwise.

3) I think that is unfair. That formula was based on research for the context of the length and type of event the craft was used in. I should also add it has been corroborated (or see slight variations). The real question is what you raised in no.2 - would a SUP buck the formula due to its hydrodynamic inefficiency ? I don't know.

4) I've done this. I downloaded the 'rowing in motion' app and checked the acceleration stats of my board. When I lost 6-7kg in weight late last season, my early results revealed an approximate speed increase that was roughly inline with that formula. I also know how powerful the placebo is - I trained for the last 8 weeks with three tennis balls strapped underneath my hull to improve my catch technique. As soon as you take them off you feel like you're flying and you sporadically set PB's until you realise why.

I don't doubt its a great and a fast board but I don't think the success you're describing can be attributed to weight loss. The shape is going to affect this but you can't separate the two. Plus without the data, its all just speculation.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on April 16, 2018, 04:05:57 PM
I don't doubt its a great and a fast board but I don't think the success you're describing can be attributed to weight loss. The shape is going to affect this but you can't separate the two. Plus without the data, its all just speculation.
Pretty much most of the top race boards are of good quality and very fast with the proper pilot.  Weight is a somewhat subjective value as one person can be the exact same weight as another but have a completely different body composition vs another.  As well VO2 and power and strength and endurance and balance and skill etc factor into the speed equation.

A good way to compare is to get simple quick and easy sprint speeds to check vs previous data from other boards.  As well get 5 miles average GPS speeds.  We did this -> and it was clear which boards were fastest after adjusting for conditions and variables.  Of course every paddler is different so results varied from person to person.  A few speed tests online reflect significant paddler variances as well.  BP did some back in 2011.

Actually when tested the 28 XOR vs the 25AS -> the XOR "felt" faster because of zero nose splash but actually was about the same speed.  Would suspect the 23 Nelo to go ok and have ok build quality if anything like the Think hollow.  But 23 vs 21.5 is a significant difference in efficiency for me when compared side to side.  For flat water -> anything around 21.5 feels just so right vs 23.  23 is good for slop and chop for me.

A light board is good to carry and load and unload onto a rack.  As well would say a light board is more preferable vs a heavy board to paddle for me.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 16, 2018, 10:00:13 PM
Couple of very interesting feedback I would still like to share with you guys. Heck, it may be a waste of time, but perhaps some of you will find the info to follow of interest.

Nelo 23 doesn't glide like a SB Sprint 23.
It glides whisper-quiet and seemingly with the efficiency of my UL 17'6" x 23".

Nelo 23 is very stable. So much so that after just a few feet, I knew I'd be taking this board in Open Water. I'd even take one step further, push the enveloppe, and perhaps hope for a 20" or 21" board for pure flat water pleasure. I mean, 23" for that board is super stable - so stable that I will have to carefully measure its 23".

I wasn't born yesterday, and I know that real measurements are needed. However, because I have been doing this for quite some time now, I am perhaps a little more in tune with "feelings". My main goal was to share immediate feedback after spending just a few long minutes on the board.

UPDATE - to clarify things
I attribute its great glide AND its stability to its rather super unusual shape. It has characteristics I find no where else.

Its weight will, without a single doubt, help me off the line and/or for any needed accelerations. Its weight will be welcomed when board handling, but will be fantastic on those longer trips. Its weight (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with its great glide.

Construction, BTW, above and beyond what was to be expected for some of the first boards. It looks like its been in production for years: flawless, super clean, and SOLID!!!!!

Last, but not least: when you try this board, or when you buy this board, one thing may really shock you: This board has a dug out standing area that IS NOT that deep (they could have dug out another 3 inches without any fear of reaching through). That seems great for heavier paddlers, so that they aren't constantly under water when moving below 6 km/h. For lighter paddlers, I think that you will be shocked: they really could have dug it out further, a lot further, and provide tons of additional stability by having your center of gravity lowered. One solution for heavier paddlers may just be a scupper / manual drain hatch. Either way, who cares... but you will no doubt find its standing area to be a much higher standing area than expected.

Anyway, until I (or any one else) shares hard-earned data....
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on April 16, 2018, 11:11:15 PM
This is the XO more pin to pin -> but the deep vee is what makes this SUP so super silent.  Compared to Daryl's surfskis tho it really fattens out at the standing area.  Going to a sunken deck makes complete sense to gain stability.  For me the dropped deck Sprint 21.5 was just a little less stable on flat vs the much higher AS23.  Main diff was going into slop and chop.  The flat Sprint spears whereas the AS rides over with more rocker.

Overall tho the Sprint 21.5 felt good even with the slight splash up front.  A 21 Nelo would probably be better for flat from the sounds of it.  The 23 maybe good for more slop and chop conditions.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 17, 2018, 12:02:58 AM
With a 14 - no matter what design - you are always going to be banging up against the ďhull speedĒ problem. Probably more than anything else, this is the most common cause of people being disappointed at how little improvement in overall speed they have got when changing board. For this reason, I tend to be suspicious of claims that one 14 is remarkably faster than another.

Weíve also got to factor in the fact that photofr weighs about 25kg or something :) So, the weight issue for him is probably much more important than for a big powerful unit like ukgm. Some of us will be more affected by small changes in weight and form drag than others.

I really do hope that this Nelo is as light, super-stable-yet-narrow, incredibly quick, fantastically durable, and as reasonably-priced as photofr claims. We could all do with a board like that. But I guess that Iíve heard so many claims like that from brands and their reps over the last 11 years that Iíve become a bit cynical. Most design improvements seem to have been trade-offs and incremental improvements, but what Iím hearing here is no trade-offs and game-changing improvement. I hope this is accurate, to restore my faith in human nature.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 17, 2018, 02:33:47 AM
Setting the record straight:
The Nelo board is a German design (Lightboard).
The construction of the mold, the craftsmanship, and the construction method is Nelo.

Based on the price of surfskis, this board should be in the 1900 to 2500 euro range. However, since the German company needs to also make money, the current price is in the 3000 euro range instead... but Even then, for a durable such as this construction method, I believe the price is still super fair.

On a different note, Nelo will MOST LIKELY be designing and building their very own boards... in the next few years.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 17, 2018, 04:08:29 AM
Setting the record straight:
The Nelo board is a German design (Lightboard).
The construction of the mold, the craftsmanship, and the construction method is Nelo.

Based on the price of surfskis, this board should be in the 1900 to 2500 euro range. However, since the German company needs to also make money, the current price is in the 3000 euro range instead... but Even then, for a durable such as this construction method, I believe the price is still super fair.

On a different note, Nelo will MOST LIKELY be designing and building their very own boards... in the next few years.

As I understand it, an allwater hollow board is due from Lightsignature shortly. That should be interesting. As it stands, once work calms down, I've got access to a Nelo board I can borrow. However, as I said to someone last weekend, designing a fast board isn't really that hard. However, designing one that can operate on a crowded start line or a race racked with draft trains is entirely different.

I personally think the price is too high though. It costs more than an elite level Epic surfski.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on April 17, 2018, 04:15:50 AM
3600 Euro is about $4450  GBP 3100

They claim just over 9 kg
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 17, 2018, 06:08:55 AM
3600 Euro is about $4450  GBP 3100

They claim just over 9 kg

They may well price themselves out of the market in my view. They haven't got the established brand power within the SUP world so to go as high as something like starboard is a huge risk. The SUP market won't have a clue about Nelo's excellent build pedigree.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on April 17, 2018, 09:32:17 AM
3600 Euro is about $4450  GBP 3100

They claim just over 9 kg

They may well price themselves out of the market in my view. They haven't got the established brand power within the SUP world so to go as high as something like starboard is a huge risk. The SUP market won't have a clue about Nelo's excellent build pedigree.

Yeah that is a risk.  This was the problem with Think to some degree.  Fantastic build quality and fairly light weight -> but high relative cost for an unknown SUP brand.  The Think is heavier than the Nelo as it is built quite robust to handle knocks and dragging onto rocks and sand.  Daryl could have made it lighter at the expense of less durability.  His 5 year old demo is not much worse for wear after substantial abuse from noobs testing and such.  He wanted durability over feather light weight.  And from my perspective -> I would take durability as well vs saving a couple of pounds any day.  It weighs about what a full carbon board weighs.  So not really heavy.  In my mind it feels burly vs carbon.

Possibly when my Dom breaks some time down the road -> will probably contact Daryl and buy his demo from him.  His build quality is that solid.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 17, 2018, 02:10:27 PM
3600 Euro is about $4450  GBP 3100

They claim just over 9 kg

They may well price themselves out of the market in my view. They haven't got the established brand power within the SUP world so to go as high as something like starboard is a huge risk. The SUP market won't have a clue about Nelo's excellent build pedigree.
Itís not that much more to pay than for a carbon Starboard in the UK. Itís always going to be a tiny market that this kind of board will appeal to. I doubt youíd sell more than 10 to the whole of the UK. But the people who are competitive enough to want one would pay anything if it is perceived as giving a genuine advantage. The problem Nelo have got is that without the marketing BS that some other brands use to flog sometimes iffy boards, theyíll have to rely on word of mouth only. And that will mean that the boards will actually have to work in real world race conditions, not just on a deserted lake. But if it really is as good as photofr is claiming, then word will get around.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 17, 2018, 03:06:12 PM
3600 Euro is about $4450  GBP 3100

They claim just over 9 kg

They may well price themselves out of the market in my view. They haven't got the established brand power within the SUP world so to go as high as something like starboard is a huge risk. The SUP market won't have a clue about Nelo's excellent build pedigree.
Itís not that much more to pay than for a carbon Starboard in the UK. Itís always going to be a tiny market that this kind of board will appeal to. I doubt youíd sell more than 10 to the whole of the UK. But the people who are competitive enough to want one would pay anything if it is perceived as giving a genuine advantage. The problem Nelo have got is that without the marketing BS that some other brands use to flog sometimes iffy boards, theyíll have to rely on word of mouth only. And that will mean that the boards will actually have to work in real world race conditions, not just on a deserted lake. But if it really is as good as photofr is claiming, then word will get around.

It's pretty hard when starboard have such a stranglehold on the race board market. I don't think paddlers are that technology savvy or sensitive in the main - they'll paddle anything they can get a deal on I think. However, I do know that this board is going to be pushed heavily at this years inaugural ICF sup worlds. It's particularly handy that Nelo is one of the event sponsors.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 17, 2018, 05:44:59 PM
ukgm - I donít think that your drive to find the best equipment for you is any different from other highly competitive person. A really competitive person would sell their granny for a 0.01% race advantage. Itís an addiction, of sorts.

The reason IMO why Starboards sell is simply that other riders see people winning on them. And Starboard have the best distribution network. So if people see Nelo boards winning then theyíll buy them. It would certainly be nice to see the Starboard stranglehold broken -itís just getting a bit boring. Maybe if Kai starts winning on SIC that might broaden the horizons a little. Does Nelo sponsor an athlete who is likely to be able to run with the worldís very best? How does this new board draft, buoy turn, surf, downwind, crosswind etc and all those important kinds of things for winning in the top international races?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 17, 2018, 10:05:57 PM
Price-wise, I kept asking myself:
Why should I really purchase a Nelo instead of a Starboard?

It came down to about the same amount of money, but with Nelo: I got myself areal built quality, and not a product that falls apart before the end of a single season. My Ace is fantastic on downwind, but durability just isn't there AT ALL - yet, I baby the freekin' thing.

So let me get this straight:
You get a board that is way stiffer and doesn't cost anything more.
You get a board that is built to withstand rail abuse / other abuse.
You get a board that is like 9 kilos instead of one that is 12.5 (that's just huge BTW)
You get a reputable construction from the biggest boat builder in the World - with an excellent track record.

** I expected the Nelo board to be something like 5000 euros - so needless to say, when I figured out that it was about the same price as other top boards, it was a "no-brainer". To each his own though. 
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 17, 2018, 10:32:38 PM
In the end, yes: a great 14' board that matches MY needs. Keep in mind, boards are just like bikes: you may love Cannondale bikes, and your best buddy may never let go his Scott bike. The golden rule will therefore still apply: try one - and see for yourself if you are a good match for this board.

I went for another paddle with the board yesterday late afternoon. Yes, the glide is still at the Rendez-vous, and it still feels fantastic. Zero regrets so far, but there's something else I'd like to share with you.

The standing area:
As you might know, there are two drain holes on the board. This board will drain very fast, but that's also because your immediate standing area is shaped like an inverted V. It's a bit odd, and will take some "getting used to".

Here's a statement that may very well prove correct:
Current top athletes using this board may have a clear advantage.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-May-22-Euro-Tour-Long/i-MtMSkw7/2/40a7a137/L/SUN-14-footers-0079-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-May-22-Euro-Tour-Long/i-MtMSkw7/A)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 17, 2018, 11:55:19 PM
ukgm - I donít think that your drive to find the best equipment for you is any different from other highly competitive person. A really competitive person would sell their granny for a 0.01% race advantage. Itís an addiction, of sorts.


I'm not so sure as far as SUP goes at the moment. I think a lot of it depends on the paddlers background. Chatting to friends, I've found those from more of a lifestyle background are satisfied once they have a board at least the same as everyone else's. Its only those I find that have come in from technologically sensitive sports like triathlon that seem to be more pushy for the extreme. That all said, I have seen plenty of people pushing for what they feel gives them faster qualities, (such as narrower widths) until they go too far. Last weeks Head of the Dart race here was very interesting to see the trends.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 18, 2018, 12:00:36 AM

** I expected the Nelo board to be something like 5000 euros - so needless to say, when I figured out that it was about the same price as other top boards, it was a "no-brainer". To each his own though.

Well, you know what they say, you charge the maximum you think your market will pay. Starboard are already too expensive. If i can go out and buy a brand new V10 design surfski (that has only just come to market and has its own R&D to recoup) for 25% less than this board costs, Light signature are charging too much. I do agree with your bullet points though. The key thing for me are two you missed and these were:

a) Potential resale depreciation rate (I think this will struggle as nobody knows what it is)
b) Is it actually faster )nobody knows yet and no data has been presented.

I can live with a) being poor provided b) is true. I'm hoping to get on one of these boards shortly. However, my gut is telling me to wait for their allwater design first. I think that will be more raceable.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 18, 2018, 12:29:28 AM
ukgm - I donít think that your drive to find the best equipment for you is any different from other highly competitive person. A really competitive person would sell their granny for a 0.01% race advantage. Itís an addiction, of sorts.


I'm not so sure as far as SUP goes at the moment. I think a lot of it depends on the paddlers background. Chatting to friends, I've found those from more of a lifestyle background are satisfied once they have a board at least the same as everyone else's. Its only those I find that have come in from technologically sensitive sports like triathlon that seem to be more pushy for the extreme. That all said, I have seen plenty of people pushing for what they feel gives them faster qualities, (such as narrower widths) until they go too far. Last weeks Head of the Dart race here was very interesting to see the trends.
If youíd have been racing in the UK since the first days I think youíd have a different perspective. This is because of two factors. The first is that the only game in town in the UK is right now Starborg, pretty much. It wasnít always like that. Starborgís current dominance has lowered expectations and desire to experiment. In the UK, if you mention racing, everyone just thinks that means ďbuy an All Star (middle pack) or Sprint (race leaders). Itís almost like calling a vacuum cleaner a Hoover. Paddlers have given up trying anything else - which is also because of the failings of most of the other brands, several of whom have produced boards with major flaws, or that arenít suited to the usual rather dull UK race formats and crappy weather (to match the failings of several Starborgs along the way).

The second factor is the dominance of sponsored riders in the UK. Sometimes it feels like there are more sponsored riders than non-sponsored ones at a UK race. Sponsored riders paddle whatever they are given, rather than experiment to find the best board. This again has limited the scope and evolution of board designs and choices.

If we had another player on the market that provided a genuine alternative to Starborg, and was built better and at a reasonable price, this would cause a stampede of people broadening their horizons. In the early days all manner of brands, shapes and lengths were used and experimented with, and people would try anything to get an advantage. It could be like that again, especially if the race regulations and brand distribution networks hadnít ossified the sport. If Nelo can successfully bring totally new thinking and construction to SUP then it will make people once again wonder what is possible, and ďbelieve in moreĒ.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 18, 2018, 04:59:22 AM
1) Paddlers have given up trying anything else - which is also because of the failings of most of the other brands, several of whom have produced boards with major flaws, or that arenít suited to the usual rather dull UK race formats and crappy weather.

2) The second factor is the dominance of sponsored riders in the UK. Sometimes it feels like there are more sponsored riders than non-sponsored ones at a UK race. Sponsored riders paddle whatever they are given, rather than experiment to find the best board. This again has limited the scope and evolution of board designs and choices.

3)  If Nelo can successfully bring totally new thinking and construction to SUP then it will make people once again wonder what is possible, and ďbelieve in moreĒ.

1) I'm not sure that's true. The blame isn't on the paddlers - its on the brands. I could get on the phone now and demo a Starboard or a Naish locally within hours. Most other brands though have a crappy or non-existent demo system where you can't try what you want very easily and I'm of the mindset that if I can't try it easily, I won't buy it. If others feel the same, they'll buy what everyone else has and in most cases, that's an Allstar (although I saw a surprising increase in people with a Sprint last weekend). You can't blame Starboard for getting it right (or being able to afford to saturate the market).

2) This also is no longer true. As far as the UK goes in 2018, I know that Starboard, Naish and Mistral have all drastically cut their teams back to barely anything. They've realised that the return wasn't very good for the investment. Likewise quite a few paddlers have realised that it might be better for them to buy their own boards and ride what they like rather than being pushed to get a new one every year whether they want it or not.

3) I hope so. Coincidentally, I've just this minute been shown pictures of the Nelo 2.0 board. I'm very interested in that. The allwater board will likely be of even greater interest to me. I'm yet to be convinced that the market will be easily persuaded to move from foam blocks to hollow construction though. They are going to make a big push at the ICF worlds though and the european paddlers more familiar with Nelo in particular may be liable to be more interested.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: SupSimcoe on April 18, 2018, 05:06:32 AM
Where are the pics of the 2.0 board?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 18, 2018, 05:39:06 AM
Where are the pics of the 2.0 board?

I'm not in a position where I can share them but apparently it launches officially this weekend. They'll have it on their website and social media. The original design has had some worthwhile tweaks it looks like.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 18, 2018, 11:09:20 PM
Hereís the very first flat water TEST result for the Nelo board - from yesterday, April 18th.

Rider: about 60 kilos
Age: 50.0 (it was my Birthday)
Shape: getting back into shape, usually middle of the pack, or only slightly better
Board compared: Nelo 14x23 (under 9 kilos) - Ace 14x25 (almost 14 kilos)
Note: This is a loop I have paddled over 40 times on the Ace.
Conditions: Near-perfect, nearly dead flat.

I started a little slow getting a feel for it all, and definitely not planning to hurt myself. After merely 1km, I started to focus more on gliding with the Nelo board. Glancing at my GPS, I saw speeds that were constantly over 1.5 km/h or more FASTER than my Ace.

Mind you, I have done this 15 km loops more than 40 times, and yesterday, the loop started at the slowest of strokes.

Donít take this at heart, but please understand that when I came to shore, and saw that the end resulted was a total average speed of 1.2 km/h, I was blown away. Of course it was going to be faster... heck, my 14x23 Sprint was faster than my 14x25 Ace... but my point here is that my 14x23 Sprint was NEVER 1.2 km/h Faster!

Clearly, my legs got a workout... but thatís me needing to get into shape anyway - so itís all good.

I want to make it clear that I wasnít paddling at full speed - far from 100%. I finished the loop no more and no less tired than after the many times I have done this exact same loop with the Ace... the same boring loop.

Whatís even more interesting to me is that based on my previous experience, I will only become faster on this new board - as with every single narrower board I have owned in the past.

Even more interesting: I knew that the Nelo was going to be faster, but I was willing to say a 0.3 or max a 0.5 km/h difference... grand max. Getting 1.2 km/h faster is unmatched on any tests I have ever conducted on a SUP.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 19, 2018, 12:00:22 AM
Hereís the very first flat water TEST result for the Nelo board - from yesterday, April 18th.

Rider: about 60 kilos
Age: 50.0 (it was my Birthday)
Shape: getting back into shape, usually middle of the pack, or only slightly better
Board compared: Nelo 14x23 (under 9 kilos) - Ace 14x25 (almost 14 kilos)
Note: This is a loop I have paddled over 40 times on the Ace.
Conditions: Near-perfect, nearly dead flat.

I started a little slow getting a feel for it all, and definitely not planning to hurt myself. After merely 1km, I started to focus more on gliding with the Nelo board. Glancing at my GPS, I saw speeds that were constantly over 1.5 km/h or more FASTER than my Ace.

Mind you, I have done this 15 km loops more than 40 times, and yesterday, the loop started at the slowest of strokes.

Donít take this at heart, but please understand that when I came to shore, and saw that the end resulted was a total average speed of 1.2 km/h, I was blown away. Of course it was going to be faster... heck, my 14x23 Sprint was faster than my 14x25 Ace... but my point here is that my 14x23 Sprint was NEVER 1.2 km/h Faster!

Clearly, my legs got a workout... but thatís me needing to get into shape anyway - so itís all good.

I want to make it clear that I wasnít paddling at full speed - far from 100%. I finished the loop no more and no less tired than after the many times I have done this exact same loop with the Ace... the same boring loop.

Whatís even more interesting to me is that based on my previous experience, I will only become faster on this new board - as with every single narrower board I have owned in the past.

Even more interesting: I knew that the Nelo was going to be faster, but I was willing to say a 0.3 or max a 0.5 km/h difference... grand max. Getting 1.2 km/h faster is unmatched on any tests I have ever conducted on a SUP.

If you get the chance again, perform the tests over shorter distances but with repeated runs (at least 4-5). 3-400m will do it. Try and fix your effort by setting a fixed stroke rate. That will reduce some of the error and placebo out of any testing. Based on the basic principles of what we know about hydrodynamics, I would be extremely suspicious about a 1.2kph gain - particularly when none of their team riders have shown such unusual gains when racing on this board.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 19, 2018, 12:40:46 AM
Interesting. But why compare it to an Ace? The Ace is not a flat water board. You need to run the comparison against a cutting bow board. What youíve done is the equivalent to comparing the speed of a 2-seat Ferrari to a off-road 4x4 on a smooth racetrack.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 19, 2018, 01:12:48 AM
Interesting. But why compare it to an Ace? The Ace is not a flat water board. You need to run the comparison against a cutting bow board. What youíve done is the equivalent to comparing the speed of a 2-seat Ferrari to a off-road 4x4 on a smooth racetrack.

Indeed... however, read between the lines.
On an extensive test, based on 2 x 1000 meter runs, with a total of 6 boards and 6 people, we performed a grand total of 12 runs. Based on those short distances, we ALL found that the Ace was quite capable - even against the Sprint 14x23.

Itís an entire different game when you compare the Ace 14x25 on longer distances.

Hereís my belief:
People who regularly paddle with me will now have a really hard time keeping up with the Nelo, where I was smongst the top three of the group before.

Lots of people will benefit from the new Nelo board, ON THE FLATS, big or small, but the lighter and agile paddlers having zero balance issues will benefit most.

To this day, and as far as I know, no lighter paddler is using the new Nelo board to give a comparative on typical races.

There is nothing complete about what I did - but I have zero doubt now that this board is by far faster with me on it.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 19, 2018, 01:17:22 AM
Based on my GPS data of my Ul 17.6x23 on flat water, used on 1000ís of kilometers, my numbers show that the Nelo board is very close to the speed and glide of that UL.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 19, 2018, 01:49:34 AM
Based on my GPS data of my Ul 17.6x23 on flat water, used on 1000ís of kilometers, my numbers show that the Nelo board is very close to the speed and glide of that UL.

I can't dispute that but without some level of controls put in place with your testing (or knowing the +/- error), it could just have easily be consistent bias or a large error range meaning it isn't statistically significant. For example, I've been setting PB's all winter long on a board time-wise but once I'd looked in more detail and worked out any error, it turned out that much of this could be attributed to the effects of weather and different training I'd been doing. Having one set control (i.e. speed) isn't enough. You need at least two. If your fitness has changed, this could affect the results just as easily (or it could be a combination of a lot of factors). However, this probably isn't relevant to you since if you think its faster (and some speed indicates a gain), it probably is. I don't doubt you are faster on this board but I'd be surprised about some of the margins you're suggesting.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 19, 2018, 02:36:27 AM
Photofr- the only way you are going to convince us is to do a properly designed comparison trial. Either ukgm or I would be happy to design such a trial for you, and do the statistical analysis. I would insist on having more than one paddler, but ukgm is more lax about these things :)

The problem is that your claims sound too good to be true. And you havenít provided us with convincing data yet. For instance, with the comparison with your UL, it is likely that at only 60kg you are a bit light for an UL board that big. Plenty of women paddlers I know weigh more than you, and they find themselves really struggling on a UL. UL boards are only fast if you have the grunt to take advantage of the extra waterlength. If you havenít then you are just pushing more board than you need. If you put ukgm on the Nelo and your UL I have little doubt that no matter how good the Nelo is, heíd be faster on the UL (and probably find the paddling experience much more pleasurable).

So I think that you are either going to have to do a properly-designed and implemented trial, or you are just going to face a wall of scepticism that you are going to find frustrating. I hope you follow the former course, and Iím sure weíd be happy to help you with it.

My guess would be that the Nelo is about 0.3 kph faster on average in pure flat water than a 14x23 Starboard Sprint, with a fit 80kg paddler on board, but that advantage would disappear if the water got choppy or if the course had lots of buoy turns. Thatís still a very useful advantage, if the Nelo doesnít lose too much to more ďcompromise designsĒ (like the Sprint) in real-world race conditions. Otherwise it will just join the pantheon of ďfast in a straight line on a rowing lakeĒ designs that have appeared over the last 12 years or so, and have left the stage unloved, because races the world over are not like that.




Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: SupSimcoe on April 19, 2018, 03:45:32 AM
It seems like we are taking this a little to far. I think it is nice for a member to review a board and give their feedback and experience. If it is much faster for them then it may be that it is just much faster for them. I know that I am quite a bit faster on a 25 inch wide board and if I went down to 23 and was on flat water I would most likely be even faster if I stay out of the water.

if this member wants to do more scientific tests then it would be great but do not attack them for not doing so. Remember that the reason we put so much into these pieces of carbon is to get out on the water and have a good time while getting in very good shape.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on April 19, 2018, 03:58:29 AM
I believe the how you fare in a regular group is a better measure then trying to time a few laps. Regular outings with know partners will iron out the differences in conditions and variances in our own output.

Our variance in laps is far too subjective and bound to be affected by our knowledge of what board we are on.

So I look forward to hear from photofr after a few weeks of group outings.

Glad you're happy with your board photofr. Would like to hear your thoughts on comparison with a Starby Sprint or NSP Ninja when you get the opportibity to jump on one.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 19, 2018, 04:38:10 AM
I would insist on having more than one paddler, but ukgm is more lax about these things :)
;D
I know you'll know this but my opinion of this is that this decision comes down to the research question you're actually asking. You are either asking the question "is board A faster than board B" or is "board A faster for me than board B". These aren't the same. In pretty much all cases for us as paddlers, its about the latter. However, brands would be more concerned about the former as they are dealing with the whole market. This is why my testing doesn't involve multiple paddlers as its not relevant to what I want to know. Considering my own testing can obtain a coefficient of variation of circa 3% (which is nearly on par with lab-based testing), I'm pretty confident on my process (however it should be noted that this is for flatwater testing only which as you wisely point out is not actually what most races see). There are some obvious caveats and limitations.

If you're right though and the gain of the Nelo is ~0.3kph, that is frankly game changing in my book.

I should add that I've been offered access to a Nelo and if I can just clear some of my workload down, I will test it if i can get it local to me.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on April 19, 2018, 06:34:00 AM
please test if red  is faster too.

Or is it just a myth?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 19, 2018, 09:58:25 AM
please test if red  is faster too.

Or is it just a myth?

Well, if you think its faster or slower, it probably is.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 19, 2018, 10:44:11 AM
Red decelerates faster, green accelerates faster. Everyone knows that. Thatís why traffic lights have red for stop, green for go.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 19, 2018, 10:52:39 AM
It seems like we are taking this a little to far. I think it is nice for a member to review a board and give their feedback and experience. If it is much faster for them then it may be that it is just much faster for them. I know that I am quite a bit faster on a 25 inch wide board and if I went down to 23 and was on flat water I would most likely be even faster if I stay out of the water.

if this member wants to do more scientific tests then it would be great but do not attack them for not doing so. Remember that the reason we put so much into these pieces of carbon is to get out on the water and have a good time while getting in very good shape.
Itís entirely to your credit that you leap to photofrís defence - although enough of us have been on the receiving end of salvos from him to know well that he is perfectly capable of defending himself.

Have you ever watched a family argument start, in a family that is not your own? Without the perspective of the history of past discussions it often seems like everyone is over-reacting. I think that might be what is happening here :)

For instance, it wasnít so long ago that photofr was point-blank accusing me of lying. So if you engage with people like that then you must expect robust examination of your own pronouncements, especially if they seem too good to be true. But I am hoping he is actually correct.

0.3kph in undisturbed flat water wouldnít be that much of a game-changer if it was also 0.3kph slower once there are ripples in the water...
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: paulosup on April 19, 2018, 11:10:31 AM
Hi guys.
First time posting here! I've been a regular visitor to the Zone but after reading about the Nelo board for so long in this thread I think I can bring some insight from Portugal.
I'm Portuguese and Nelo is one of the prides of Portugal, being a very successful case study, dominating the kayak production and delivering a high quality product.
However, regarding SUP I think they still have a very long way to go. I've seen the board a few times and I think I can give my opinion (although I haven't tried yet).
First of all, as Photofr said recently it is not a Nelo shape. The shape was developed by Lightcorp (a german or austrian company) and Nelo produces it. In Portugal there are only two C1 guys (from what I know) that paddle this board (Nelo lets them use it) and not one regular SUP racer uses it. The board is flatwater only: has zero nose rocker and from what I remembered the bottom tail is pretty flat also.
The two OC1 guys that paddle with it are in their early 20s and hold several national titles. They only paddle with it when it's really flat (river or lake only) and don't go out when it's choppy and never go out in the ocean (mind that although Portugal has a very large coast and almost everyone lives near the ocean, most canoeists here only paddle in rivers, lakes or canoe lanes).
I think design has one major flaw: the drain holes are located between the lower rails and the bottom, and instead of the water coming out of the cockpit, the water goes into the cockpit through the draining holes. Both riders use silver tape to block the holes.
As for the construction, and this is my personal view, I think a hollow construction like this is not suitable for choppy waters and ocean, and the board would vibrate a lot on these conditions.
Nelo is developing and testing a board that they claim will go to 18 km/h (and I believe it will) but its' basically a chopped off kayak from what I understand (and they don't have a SUP shaper or designer). Sure this board will be very fast, but it is a very specific board for sprinting in really flat conditions (no turning ability or able to handle the regular chop or the chop made by other racers at the beginning of races).
This is exactly what Jimmy Terrell told it would happen a few years ago in an article called The Death and Rebirth of SUP Racing (http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/): "weíre going to see our user-friendly sport slowly deteriorate from the threat of specialized, hi-tech equipment that doesnít have user-friendly shapes or consumer-friendly prices. Weíre going to see race boards that are impossible to paddle for all but the most elite, well-balanced paddlers. Weíll lose the accessibility that made this sport so popular in the first place."
At the moment the most popular racing shaps from SUP brands are the all-water boards and some brands even dropped their flatwater boards from the lineup or make them usable in not so flat conditions or even eficiente in the ocean.
So, this what I know about the Nelo boards. I don't know if they have plans to develop an all-water or ocean board.
Hope this helps in bringing some more information.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on April 19, 2018, 08:15:53 PM
That's interesting that the 14x23 Nelo was 1.2 kph faster than the 14x25 Ace on the 15 km loop. But what was the actual, average speed of each board?

Something like 10.0 kph vs. 8.8 kph would really impress me. Something like 8.6 kph vs. 7.4 kph would not impress me as much. Because the dream is a board that can more easily maintain speeds above hull speed, which is 9.3 kph for a 14' board.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on April 19, 2018, 10:31:07 PM
I've paddled the board a couple of times and I'm still thrilled.
Draft works at least as well as with the Allstar and on my usual rounds I am about 0.5 km/h faster.
I have not raced a race yet, but a friend. Nearly 10 km with wind, with buoy turns and twice on land around a buoy. He had no problems and did not go swimming. There was a lot of 21.5 sprints and he could finished in the top 10 with his 24.75.
With the Nelo he has reached his highest average speed on the 10 km training round, which was 9.7 km/h. However, it is difficult to make a comparison here because the conditions often differ slightly. His weight is around 72 kg.
In terms of my size and weight, boat waves coming from the side are the biggest challenge right now.
The design of the drain holes has been changed so that some water actually runs into the stand. But it is by no means more than with the Allstar.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 20, 2018, 01:51:53 AM
There has been some great recent feedback. Thanks for people posting this.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 20, 2018, 03:57:48 AM
Yes, itís great to have some more detail.

0.5kph increase in average speed over an All Star in pure flat water sounds at the upper end of what youíd expect from a high-end dedicated flat water board, but not at all impossible.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on April 20, 2018, 05:02:08 AM
^ yep

Sounds realistic.

Don't underestimate how much faster you can go when your wallet is $4500 lighter! In terms of lightness it's a win win!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 20, 2018, 08:31:44 AM
Guys: hear this now!

If you want the details, keep on reading.
For those in a rush: I now have zero doubt that this board is the fastest 14' board FOR ME on flat water.

DETAILS
I am racking some serious miles on this new Nelo board. I can simply state this:
This 14' board is the second fastest board I have ever paddled in my life. The only faster one was a UL (17'6 x 23 with a needle nose and needle tail) and it wasn't faster by much at all.

However, I do believe you would have to be ME in order to benefit from the huge increase in speed. Let me explain here:

1. You'd have to be pretty light (under 140 pounds) to really feel the weight difference of the board. It will even be more noticeable if you have low fat to muscle ratios. With that kind of morphology, you'll feel like you constantly want to launch another acceleration. It's a noticeably light.

2. You'd have to be certain that you aren't experiencing balance issues. Anything other than well planted feet on the board, you are going to loose mega speed. The efficiency of the board will be thrown out of the window, the second you are hesitating on power. I believe that having paddled a needle board for so long in the Ocean has really helped me more than I can imagine.

3. I am seeing an amazing increase in speed (between 1.00 and 1.20 km/h DIFFERENCE) but pay close attention what I am measuring it to!!! I am comparing it to the only other board I own: a 14x25 Ace - a 2017 model. It's got a lot of rocker, it pushes a lot of water, it's heavy - however, it's not that slow on flat water (with the right person on it). I am however the WRONG person on the Ace (I am just too light). Because of this, it's probably making the difference in speed between the two boards even more obvious.

DOES IT MATTER THAT I AM COMPARING IT TO AN ACE?
To a certain extent, it does - but far less than you think - because the real kicker here is that I have not had such high average speeds with my 2016 Sprint 14x23 (that I had for nearly two years) or my 2016 Allstar 14x25 (that I owned for a little over a year). If anything, I am absolutely certain that I am in a freekin' loosy shape right now, yet, I am getting slightly more than 0.7 km/h increase in speed from anything I have done on my Sprint (comparing only flat water runs with flat water runs).

WHAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO ME?
It's not racing.
It's not buoy turns.
Glide (and efficiency) rank #1 in my books. Since I am now living inland, I will mostly find most of my pleasures in canals within Northern France.

Overall speed is important too though - so when I get on a board that is repeatedly over 1km/h faster than the Ace 14x25, you can just imagine just imagine my smile. Yes, I am still getting so close to the exact same numbers, even on my 5th session with the board.

IRRESPONSIBLE TESTING?
Yeah, these were some of the least scientific tests I have ever conducted. I gotta ask: so what??? These tests don't need to please but one single person: ME. Therefore, I don't need 5 boards, 5 people, and 5 hours to tests boards.

Just keep this in mind:
When I was in better shape, I racked more miles than most and obtained enough data on my 14' Sprint, on my 14' Allstar, and on my 14' Ace to clearly state a few things.

1. The 14' Sprint averages 0.7 km/h slower than the Nelo.
2. One of my best speed averages with the 14' Sprint was still 0.4 km/h slower than with the Nelo.
3. The 14' Ace averages 1.1 km/h slower than the Nelo.
4. One of my best speed averages with the 14' Ace was still 0.8 km/h slower than with the Nelo.

Note A: In all instances above, I was in better shape than since I have the Nelo board.
Note B: I only took flat water runs to compare what is comparable.
Note C: Only runs that were over 10km were used for comparing data.

You shouldn't ask yourself if you are going to or not going to get the same increase in speed with a Nelo board. I am MERELY sharing my enthusiasm and letting you know that I am blown away - for I have found a gem. I wish I had time to give you more scientific data, and put the boards through extensive testing, but truth be told, it isn't so easy for me to find people / boards up here - in Northern France. Essentially, I'll let someone else to let YOU know how this board might feel for YOU.

Stay tuned and I will tell you what I FEEL could be improved on this board.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 20, 2018, 08:58:52 AM
So... to be clear, I have the new Nelo board - 14' x 23"
It's down right amazing (for me) and while it's my very favorite 14' board for flat water, and while I take great joy to paddle it, there are still a few changes I would like to see on that board.

THE V DECK
It's a V deck, therefore your feet aren't flat. That is okay for short distances, and I while I do feel like I am getting used to that, I must admit that it's just too slanted, and it's just not as comfortable as what I am used to. The highest part of the board is in the center, and the deck then slants left and right from there. Think of it as an uncomfortable inverted V deck.

THE DECK PAD
You guys may not care too much... however, I love Starboard's deck pad. It's soft, and it's nice. Nelo is using the good old fashion diamond deck pad. It seems much harder, and perhaps not so comfortable with my weight. Either way, I don't like it much.

DRAINS
Water does come in the drains - but only at slow speeds (with my weight). I plugged those things with foam. I would love to see a better system for draining - and how about a one-way valve? At higher speed, or on a warm day, I don't find that to be an issue.

LEASH PLUG
Installing a frontal leash plug would be a welcome addition. Heck, installing a GoPro mount would be nice too so that I could use my surfski accessories on the board too.

WAVE DEFLECTOR
I want to see a wave deflector on that thing. I surfed a boat wake yesterday (totally do-able BTW, and super fun). The board takes off on a dime (probably its weight again - or lack thereof). However, on my first try, I made a stupid mistake and didn't take my step back - and therefore swamped the cockpit in a "flash". A simple wave deflector may do the trick. Thankfully, I have one more Nelo surfski wave deflector that I will be installing for open water. It should come as standard.

PRIMARY STABILITY
I am a sucker for primary stability. It means very little in Open water, however, it's that "reassuring" first and initial feeling you get as you first get on the board: and in this case, there just isn't much there in terms of stability when you first get on it. Meaning, I would love to see more primary stability, even at the expense of less secondary. Once you get moving though, there's tons of stability on that board, with or without waves... but you MUST keep moving. There's more primary stability on my Sprint 14x23, but this board is in part with the Sprint once it gets moving.

Clearly, there isn't much I would do differently for this board. I am just being nick-picking here. This board isn't cheap, but it's still cheaper than a comparable staby - though the construction of the Nelo board is far more sturdy. I should know, I have abused my Nelo surfski - made with the exact same material - and the thing still looks nearly brand new.

I am psyched !

Last items to point out:
This board will rock in the Ocean, and in even in small downwind.
This board is easier to spin than the Sprint - another "flat water board" that is used in the Ocean by pros.
This board will draft like - TOO EASY.
Good luck drafting me - with ease. :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-Apr-18-Nelo-SUP/i-x3Hb5DW/0/ef177bed/XL/1456-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-Apr-18-Nelo-SUP/i-x3Hb5DW/A)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on April 20, 2018, 09:37:50 AM
Don't underestimate how much faster you can go when your wallet is $4500 lighter! In terms of lightness it's a win win!

"We offer special teamrider discounts to active race paddles and canoe-sup clubs ."
https://www.light-sup.com/test--testimonial.html

So it isn't sooo much faster ;-)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 20, 2018, 10:05:31 AM
Purchasing this board out right has set me back quite a bit - but know that I didn't get a single euro OFF the board. Mine will come straight from the French distributor.

FOR REF
For now, however, I am using their demo boards - until mine arrives.
(it's been built, it's ready for shipping... but I am still being hopeful that it will arrive within the next few days)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on April 20, 2018, 10:51:33 AM
For now, however, I am using their demo boards - until mine arrives.
(it's been built, it's ready for shipping... but I am still being hopeful that it will arrive within the next few days)

Cool. Then you will probably get the new signature 2.0, which only gives it as 14x23.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 20, 2018, 10:53:15 AM
I think the one I am on is the 2.0 - only because it has the carbon drain tubes. I'll only know for sure when I get mine though.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on April 20, 2018, 10:53:50 AM
https://www.facebook.com/gerd.weisner/posts/999895623494842
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on April 20, 2018, 10:54:56 AM
Btw. mine has also the carbon drain tubes and is not a 2.0.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 20, 2018, 11:00:08 AM
I have mixed feelings about the higher sidewalls, especially with my lightweight and how the wind will affect me. I guess only time will tell.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: JEG on April 20, 2018, 08:18:22 PM
Btw. mine has also the carbon drain tubes and is not a 2.0.

nice board, it looks like the NSP ninja and it could do with the better color and graphics.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 20, 2018, 10:35:50 PM
Btw. mine has also the carbon drain tubes and is not a 2.0.

nice board, it looks like the NSP ninja and it could do with the better color and graphics.

They are both "SUP boards" but that is about the only extent of their resemblance. The bow on the Nelo board is inverted, the hull is completely different - in every way imaginable.

Color-wise, you can get any custom design you want when you order through Nelo. I opted for a simple graphic on a blue board - coming SOON.

For info... and unless I am mistaking...
NSP was working on their model in late 2016. They didn't copy Nelo.
Nelo was working on its Mold in late 2016. They didn't copy NSP (and could not have).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 21, 2018, 03:27:23 PM
I have mixed feelings about the higher sidewalls, especially with my lightweight and how the wind will affect me. I guess only time will tell.

I wonder if higher sidewalks could improve the stability ?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 22, 2018, 03:00:15 AM
I have mixed feelings about the higher sidewalls, especially with my lightweight and how the wind will affect me. I guess only time will tell.

I wonder if higher sidewalks could improve the stability ?
Of what? Pedestrians passing you by :)

Stability comes from what is in the water, not what is out of it. There are a couple of reasons to have high sidewalls but IMO stability isnít one of them.

Instead, itís mostly about (a) achieving a low standing area while maintaining board strength and rigidity; (b) keeping water off the deck; (c) balancing out the windage of having a fat nose (ie. reducing weathervaning).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on April 22, 2018, 10:13:27 AM
I have mixed feelings about the higher sidewalls, especially with my lightweight and how the wind will affect me. I guess only time will tell.

I wonder if higher sidewalks could improve the stability ?
Of what? Pedestrians passing you by :)

Stability comes from what is in the water, not what is out of it. There are a couple of reasons to have high sidewalls but IMO stability isnít one of them.

Instead, itís mostly about (a) achieving a low standing area while maintaining board strength and rigidity; (b) keeping water off the deck; (c) balancing out the windage of having a fat nose (ie. reducing weathervaning).

If nothing else, the sidewalls will increase your secondary stability imo. As far as I could tell, keeping water off your deck will add stability.
The last point about those sidewalls is their role in volume distribution so the added volume off the center and towards  the rail will increase stability imo.

Then there is the matter of the added reserve Buoyancy but I don't think it really applies for the conditions this board is meant to paddle.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2018, 12:50:03 AM
I have mixed feelings about the higher sidewalls, especially with my lightweight and how the wind will affect me. I guess only time will tell.

I wonder if higher sidewalks could improve the stability ?
Of what? Pedestrians passing you by :)

Stability comes from what is in the water, not what is out of it.

That's not true because as a roll begins, more of the sidewall is then entering the water to then effectively provide resistance due to its flat face. It's also changing the position of the axis for the centre of buoyancy too (although I don't know how effective this would be with a SUP board).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2018, 12:52:22 AM
I have mixed feelings about the higher sidewalls, especially with my lightweight and how the wind will affect me. I guess only time will tell.

I wonder if higher sidewalks could improve the stability ?
Of what? Pedestrians passing you by :)

Stability comes from what is in the water, not what is out of it. There are a couple of reasons to have high sidewalls but IMO stability isnít one of them.

Instead, itís mostly about (a) achieving a low standing area while maintaining board strength and rigidity; (b) keeping water off the deck; (c) balancing out the windage of having a fat nose (ie. reducing weathervaning).

If nothing else, the sidewalls will increase your secondary stability imo.
The last point about those sidewalls is their role in volume distribution so the added volume off the center and towards  the rail will increase stability imo.

Then there is the matter of the added reserve Buoyancy but I don't think it really applies for the conditions this board is meant to paddle.

I think you said what I just did in a better way.   :D
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 23, 2018, 02:40:15 AM
Ok, Iíll say it again: stability comes from what is in the water, not what is out of it.

Imagine sidewalls 6ft high. Would the board be more stable? Try it and see.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2018, 03:29:13 AM
Imagine sidewalls 6ft high. Would the board be more stable? Try it and see.

You misunderstand, Burchas and I are saying it is in the water. If the board rolled enough so that they engaged/entered the surface of the water, some of it would help yes. If you have a sidewall with an extra inch or two and the board rolls enough so that their face enters the water, it will create a rising rate of (likely) secondary stability. We're talking about mm's here, not inches. However, granted, if you're the kind of paddler that has possibly low torque and defiently great balance, no, it won't be as helpful in my view.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 23, 2018, 03:48:01 AM
No, I didnít misunderstand at all. You just didnít think carefully enough about what I was saying.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2018, 04:24:52 AM
No, I didnít misunderstand at all. You just didnít think carefully enough about what I was saying.

Not at all. You said "Ok, Iíll say it again: stability comes from what is in the water, not what is out of it." You made a strawman argument. We described when the board rolls in actual use so when (or if - depending on the paddler) higher sidewalls engage in the fluid, (not when its just sat there with the sidewalls high and dry). I agree that if the walls don't get wet, it won't make any difference. You get this exact scenario as a design feature in ocean ski design.

BTW, the attitude isn't necessary for what is only a friendly discussion.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 23, 2018, 04:55:30 AM
I agree that the sidewalls can play an important part in secondary stability. Sure, they are mostly out of the water, so sidewalls (out of the water) do not count for primary stability. However, as soon as the board starts to roll, sidewall HEIGHT and ANGLE matter tremendously in obtaining that secondary stability.

Back in the days, we'd place our surfskis on their respective sidewalls in order to grain stability while on a run - DW. Choosing the angle was an art in itself. Amazing stability gain was achieved by this - secondary stability.

Personally, primary stability is what I prefer... though to each his/her own. For me, primary stability let's me find "my spot" from the second I get onboard - no pun intended. Speed and high RPM is where I gain secondary stability. Therefore, if I had to choose, I'd go with great primary stability, and below average secondary (hardly any sidewalls to speak of) for the added benefit of not having added surface area to catch wind. This is yet again, super personal... as there's no right and wrong here.

To claim that sidewalls are not going to and will not ever provide additional stability seems incorrect.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 23, 2018, 05:00:50 AM
On a completely different note: here's some feedback from the board...
1. My fellow paddlers are having a hard time keeping up with my new board.
2. No one has made it in front of my board yet.
3. I am obviously more rested during and after each and every single paddle. I can tell because I am all chilled while paddling.
4. It is very clear to me that each of the paddlers are now struggling to keep up - without a single exception. This is clear to me because they are all out of breathe, FOR THE FIRST TIME.
5. I have not been out of breathe a single time since I got this board - while paddling with my buddies.

I am really appreciating the glide - and that's just an understatement.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2018, 05:33:47 AM
I agree that the sidewalls can play an important part in secondary stability. Sure, they are mostly out of the water, so sidewalls (out of the water) do not count for primary stability. However, as soon as the board starts to roll, sidewall HEIGHT and ANGLE matter tremendously in obtaining that secondary stability.

Back in the days, we'd place our surfskis on their respective sidewalls in order to grain stability while on a run - DW. Choosing the angle was an art in itself. Amazing stability gain was achieved by this - secondary stability.

To claim that sidewalls are not going to and will not ever provide additional stability seems incorrect.

I completely agree.

(We used to do this as a drill in our surfski's back in my lifeguarding days. Once you know where the edge is you can feel the rising rate of the secondary buoyancy kick in as you lean the ski over and the higher section of the sidewall engages in the water..... until it doesn't..... and then you're out !)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on April 23, 2018, 06:14:03 AM
Imagine sidewalls 6ft high. Would the board be more stable? Try it and see.

Not really a valid argument. I'll go the other way... Imagine no sidewalls at all.
Would the board be less stable? And yes, we are talking about this specific design ;)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on April 23, 2018, 07:32:00 AM
I agree that the sidewalls can play an important part in secondary stability. Sure, they are mostly out of the water, so sidewalls (out of the water) do not count for primary stability. However, as soon as the board starts to roll, sidewall HEIGHT and ANGLE matter tremendously in obtaining that secondary stability.

Back in the days, we'd place our surfskis on their respective sidewalls in order to grain stability while on a run - DW. Choosing the angle was an art in itself. Amazing stability gain was achieved by this - secondary stability.

To claim that sidewalls are not going to and will not ever provide additional stability seems incorrect.

I believe that some top users and proponents of dugouts for fast down-winding have been mentioning this to be part of their strategy. I am slowly trying to get into it but not the intuitive thing to do on a SUP :-)

I completely agree.

(We used to do this as a drill in our surfski's back in my lifeguarding days. Once you know where the edge is you can feel the rising rate of the secondary buoyancy kick in as you lean the ski over and the higher section of the sidewall engages in the water..... until it doesn't..... and then you're out !)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on April 23, 2018, 08:06:50 AM
...
 I'll go the other way... Imagine no sidewalls at all.
...

Got a board like that! Love it.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on April 23, 2018, 08:28:26 AM
I believe that some top users and proponents of dugouts for fast down-winding have been mentioning this to be part of their strategy. I am slowly trying to get into it but not the intuitive thing to do on a SUP :-)

Definitely a good strategy, both upwind and downwind. Digging into a bump in-front of you side ways really helps to maintain speed
and avoid pearling. Works very well for me upwind and eliminates nose slap. Not quite there downwind yet but seen it in action an
it's a real boon.  The great secondary stability sidewalls provide is nice feature to have for this technique.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on April 23, 2018, 09:53:34 AM
...
 I'll go the other way... Imagine no sidewalls at all.
...

Got a board like that! Love it.

pictures or it never happened  ;D
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on April 23, 2018, 10:10:15 AM
.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on April 23, 2018, 10:31:14 AM
Look, IMO you guys are conflating two things: a low standing area, and deep rails. Itís the low standing area that adds most stability. If you had an Ace but it had no dugout it would be crazy unstable! But in order to have a very low standing area you have to have high(ish) sidewalks or the the board will fill up with water.

Many surf SUPs that are fairly low volume can feel surprisingly stable because the rider is close to water level. Yet they have virtually no ďsidewall ď.

You are able to paddle a board on its rail if it has a dugout, but the main reason why you can do this is because you have a low CoG. You are doing this on a surfski because you are sitting low. If you were sitting high and did it youíd tip over.

So itís not the high sidewalls that are giving the stability, itís mainly the low standing area. The sidewalls allow you to have a low standing area (without getting swamped). So I think you are putting the cart before the horses.

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on April 23, 2018, 11:01:10 AM

lol. If you have one to spare, I want one of those as well.
I could see why you love it, it's a hell of a ride ;D
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on April 23, 2018, 11:14:20 AM
The sidewalls allow you to have a low standing area (without getting swamped). So I think you are putting the cart before the horses.

"Without getting swamped" is the key phrase here. Once water starts wrapping around your board and deck while in motion it can and will
send you swimming. The existence of these sidewalls or fat rails is what helping you and the extra volume on the rail always helps with
stability.

It's true, you can't put the cart before the horses, but on the other hand, you can't separate the cart from the horses either ;)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 24, 2018, 01:39:46 AM
Look, IMO you guys are conflating two things: a low standing area, and deep rails. Itís the low standing area that adds most stability.

I agree with you but that's a strawman again that people are taking this discussion down. I'm not sure how we've digressed into arguing about the merits of the design of board X vs design of board type Y. The low standing area is a red herring as it is a static quality by setting the baseline level of whatever the perceived stability is. However, secondary stability is a dynamic quality since its only really a quality once/if the board rolls. The question is whether the higher sidewall enters the water and affects this stability. I'm saying yes - it has to from a point of physics as the form and forces are both being changed in that moment. The relative distance of your feet to the waterline isn't (probably) changing when this happens so any dugout discussion isn't relevant (other than to agree with you that's its obvious that dug outs provide extra stability by lowering the centre of gravity in the main).

If a higher sidewall enters the water, it will change the perceived quality of stability - but as you said before, this is only a factor if it does that (and there is obviously a reasonable limit to how high this should be).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 24, 2018, 01:47:32 AM
I agree that the sidewalls can play an important part in secondary stability. Sure, they are mostly out of the water, so sidewalls (out of the water) do not count for primary stability. However, as soon as the board starts to roll, sidewall HEIGHT and ANGLE matter tremendously in obtaining that secondary stability.


This. ^

This is it in a nutshell. The relative position of your feet to the waterline doesn't affect this (i.e. whether you are on a dugout or not is a different discussion entirely). This is why higher sidewalls can be useful - even if they are not initially in the water.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mrbig on April 24, 2018, 03:17:20 PM
I have been following this thread for a while. Fascinating to say the least.

My first 12'6" was a Marlin. Round bottom. Like a canoe. Log rolling skills developed.

Followed by a Jimmy Lewis Blade, an Imagine (really awful), JP (choppy tippy fast in glass - what's that), Starby Race ( twitchy s.o.b.), Focus Bluefin (Mo Bettah), and a 404 Go-Go.

No dugouts, no unlimiteds.

I have discovered drain holes fill up, piercing noses neh, hull bottoms too tippy for me (crappy balance).

Sidewalls definitely effect stability both primary and secondary.

The latest SIC all water appeals to me. The newest 404 (customs in USA available), and it would interesting to try the Nelo to say the least.

I look forward to the continued discussion on this thread as it is refreshing to have many experienced racers, and constructors sharing their real world experiences instead of a lot speculation based on theoretical presuppositions.

Over and out! Paddle on lads!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on April 24, 2018, 06:30:32 PM
So, I wonder if the same kind of "secret shape sauce" and lightweight construction technology that Nelo used on this highly acclaimed 14' board could be applied to an unlimited? It would be pretty rad to be able cruise at like 11 kph without having to sit down and chafe my behind in an OC1 or surfski.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 24, 2018, 10:53:53 PM
3 years ago, on a French Forum - I was saying exactly that:
12'6 don't glide too well.
UL is the future.
Current SUP construction is archaic.
Future HOLLOW construction boards (from MOLD) will bring us 12'6 boards at about 7 pounds, and UL boards between 10 to 11 pounds.

Currently, UL boards hurt lighter paddlers because of their weight. I'd jump onto a SIC UL any day... if the thing was 9 kilos, strong, and durable.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 25, 2018, 04:53:52 AM
3 years ago, on a French Forum - I was saying exactly that:
12'6 don't glide too well.
UL is the future.
Current SUP construction is archaic.
Future HOLLOW construction boards (from MOLD) will bring us 12'6 boards at about 7 pounds, and UL boards between 10 to 11 pounds.

Currently, UL boards hurt lighter paddlers because of their weight. I'd jump onto a SIC UL any day... if the thing was 9 kilos, strong, and durable.

The problem is that the return on investment for hollow boards is a lot longer than foam construction and Starboards insistence on bringing new boards out every 12 months acts as a barrier to the likely longer shelf life of hollow boards (as per surf ski's).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on April 25, 2018, 09:46:22 AM
I understand, however, we know that the best brand new design is only going to bring an average of about 0.1 to 0.5 km/h difference in speed. Since this is true for most human powered crafts, changing new designs every year made end up costing the death or near death of a given sport. Coming up with a great new design every 4 to 7 years may prove to be more feasible.

Other facts to look at would PERHAPS include: technique improvement.
This is where most paddlers are going to get faster - a lot faster than with a new board.

Food for thoughts, right?

In any case, so glad that I got this board because on top of all its other attributes, it is infinitely more durable.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 25, 2018, 10:15:48 AM
I understand, however, we know that the best brand new design is only going to bring an average of about 0.1 to 0.5 km/h difference in speed. Since this is true for most human powered crafts, changing new designs every year made end up costing the death or near death of a given sport. Coming up with a great new design every 4 to 7 years may prove to be more feasible.

Other facts to look at would PERHAPS include: technique improvement.
This is where most paddlers are going to get faster - a lot faster than with a new board.

Food for thoughts, right?

In any case, so glad that I got this board because on top of all its other attributes, it is infinitely more durable.

I think its quite telling that kayak companies like Epic or Nelo have a model life of 4-5 years or in some cases even longer. Bicycles are pretty much the same at 3-4 years (and longer for some models). You get the impression as a result that when something new comes out, its been thought through and there is some added value. When Starboard bring a new board out every August it just tells me that their marketing dpt. is in charge of their R&D. You keep doing that and eventually the market becomes cynical and collapses.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on April 25, 2018, 01:29:09 PM
...
I think its quite telling that kayak companies like Epic or Nelo have a model life of 4-5 years or in some cases even longer. Bicycles are pretty much the same at 3-4 years (and longer for some models).
...

As if! 

1870 to NYC alley cat Monster Track is way more than 3-4 years.

Check out the dude on the Penny Farthing.

   https://youtu.be/sy-vYu2Fjf4
 

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: SupSimcoe on April 25, 2018, 06:31:24 PM
Standard EPS core board construction is so easy to change on the fly and make an all new board it is inevitable for the R&D team to make changes, under the direction of the company to keep up selling more and more stuff, and then our culture of want the newest and  shiniest takes over and they sell more stuff we do not really need and may make us marginally faster.

If we want hollow construction we have to tell the manufacturers with our wallets or they will never get it. Either that or get EPS banned so they are forced to make hollow boards.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on April 26, 2018, 02:04:25 AM
Standard EPS core board construction is so easy to change on the fly and make an all new board it is inevitable for the R&D team to make changes, under the direction of the company to keep up selling more and more stuff, and then our culture of want the newest and  shiniest takes over and they sell more stuff we do not really need and may make us marginally faster.


I think it was telling that a huge company like Naish decided to drop their flatwater board for this year and only produces a 12'6 and 14ft Maliko all water board now. When the ISA worlds go to 14ft boards for next year, I suspect the 12'6 will get dropped as well. This kind of sign doesn't bode well for the market and (if you ignore Starboard's output) doesn't indicate a healthy race board market in my view. The companies need to realise that 'fastest' and colourways isn't what we are looking for in the longer term. That all said, I don't know what we are all looking for. I can say that my opinion and philosophy with SUP has clashed publicly with Steve West's at Mistrals a lot in the past (so we don't always get on) but I can say objectively that I really admire the way (and look at their facebook page) how he/they are building a wide range of SUP concepts at the moment that are outside the conventional norms and just trying stuff out. We badly need that as a sport.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on May 04, 2018, 11:15:49 AM
Maybe someone is interested in seeing the Nelo in the water. I had the opportunity to be filmed a few meters from a drone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiYCCJUI2B4
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: JEG on May 04, 2018, 04:10:06 PM
nice board and vid mr_proper but it looks a little unstable.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on May 04, 2018, 10:22:33 PM
nice board and vid mr_proper but it looks a little unstable.

Yes, it is... at least for me  ;)
IĎm tall and have not the best balance. Started with SUP with 50 and had no watersport background.
it is much more stable for smaller, lighter people.
But the secondary stability is better and ok for me.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on May 05, 2018, 04:28:45 AM
Looks good on the water MeisterP.

Nice stroke and ankle flex too.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 05, 2018, 05:27:57 AM
Great vid Mr Proper, thanks very much.

Looks like itís what we all knew it would be: very fast, but twitchy in cross-chop, and designed for the lighter rider in pure flat water. It will be interesting to see how well ordinary folk rather than elite paddlers get on with this in ďreal-worldĒ conditions.

Great to see a light, durable and fast board being made available though. We have not been served well by e.g. Cobra and the big brands IMO. So an outfit with alternative knowledge and practices is extremely welcome.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on May 05, 2018, 11:30:01 PM
Thanks a lot  ;D
I'm glad that you like it.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 06, 2018, 01:07:35 AM
Nice video for sure. Thanks for sharing.

WAKE
I have been paddling this board in the 14x23, but by now, you guys also realise that the wake behind that board is negligible. I find that its tail actually closes the water better than the Allstar or Sprint.

STABILITY
Sure, it's very relative... I am a lightweight paddler, but I am the furthest thing from an Elite paddler. Meanwhile, I see the Nelo 14x23 as very compatible with ocean paddling on calmer days - and not just on the dead flat days. I am confident that I'd paddle this board in open water with winds between 0-15 knots.

Speaking of relativity... get on the 14x23 for 1/2 an hour, and then get back onto the 24.75... I am pretty sure you'll find it far more stable. :)

SPEED
Now this one is still peculiar - at best...
I have now had this board in all sorts of conditions, including yesterday's less than perfect day: windy / choppy confused canal with boat wakes / side wind / down breeze.

I will summerise it with one word: GLIDE.

This is in no way a statement to ensure that you rush into a store and get one. I am just sharing my feeling on the board, and providing feedback. Behind up front is a nice change  :P

What I'd like to see is: a lightweight athlete (a young athlete, not someone 50 years old like me) - someone really fast, and see how well they do with this 14x23 in real life situations.

Until then, I must say: I really am enjoying the board. The overall speed advantage for me is very cool, but the amazing feeling of the glide is what makes this 14' board special to me.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 06, 2018, 10:08:37 AM
"Speaking of relativity... get on the 14x23 for 1/2 an hour, and then get back onto the 24.75... I am pretty sure you'll find it far more stable."

Yeah no doubt about this.  Hop on a narrow tippy option then go on a wider board and it will feel like a dock.  But pretty much any board 23 and under has very good glide if it has a displacement type nose.

Would expect any top 10 elite to race on the 23 Nelo or 23 AS or 23 Sprint or 21.5 Sprint and get the best time on each board depending on the conditions on the water and how they feel that day.

The tippy jiggle is normal on a board that has no hard underside edges to slow the roll.  All one has to do is compare to the 25 discontinued SB Race to feel tippy.  Was ok on flat but in any side chop it was a handful.  Made complete sense to get rid of that board and merge the design into the more stable 2016 AS.  The 23 AS is much easier to handle in rough water than the wider 25 Race.  The power band of the 25 Race was simply too narrow.

The 23 Nelo ride should be good on flat but for rough water and side chop it would probably be a handful for most.  Just pros and cons as always -> but a hollow board option would be nice to have.  Would probably get something like that if it was available for a good price and wanted a flat water board.  That or the 21.5 Sprint Mike has.  For calm waters a narrow efficient board is so much more fun to paddle than a wide board.  But horses for courses.

The key for many is as long as you enjoy what you have -> all is good in da hood.  ;)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 13, 2018, 10:52:36 AM
My new Nelo board finally arrived - and I couldn't be happier.

FOR INFO
It was ordered with custom colors (I wanted high contrast, but I was also seeking simplicity). It took a little over 7 weeks to be built, and then another two weeks to get it from Portugal to Northern France (that was stupid of me for not insisting on direct ship). The total wait time was therefore ridiculous - but could be easily shorten.

REDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.

BOW
The bow has a lot more volume - to the point that I can't get any water to flow over the bow any more - at least in the flats, and at least with my weight. The bow seems more agressive too, with a sharper V-shape to shed water quicker. The concept seems to work, but it doesn't give me the feel of a reverse bow any more. It's only strange because I really liked the other one, though this one has other advantages, like minimising water coming from the bow.

STANDING AREA
You guys have heard me complain about the huge amount of V on the deck. This has been corrected in a huge way, and the standing area is nearly flat now, with just a slight V separating my left and right foot.

STABILITY
I should have kept the other board to really compare them... because my new board is BY FAR more stable than the previous model. Going into the ocean or paddling during super cold months will be far easier.

COLORS
The white stripes you see are actually recessed. That's just bonus, as I think it looks super cool. There's plenty of gelcoat to go around. The finish is very clean and shinny as can be. No more dull finish - which I never really enjoyed much.

SPEED
Blue's faster.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-pd5mpWk/0/bd1357e4/XL/0323-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-pd5mpWk/A)


(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-xd66hTb/0/6e9b1f73/XL/0322-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-xd66hTb/A)


(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-LF5bMNh/0/19800203/XL/0324-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-LF5bMNh/A)



Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: SupSimcoe on May 13, 2018, 11:25:40 AM
Awesome baord and I love the colour.

Can you take pics of the bottom
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 13, 2018, 12:22:23 PM
Above was shot with my lousy phone.

A quick note on the bottom:
I placed it on a rack and the rounded hull became very apparent. I'll try to duplicate what I saw with the next photos.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2018, 01:56:38 AM
Thatís a magnificent looking board.

But can I ask about this?:

ďREDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.Ē

So, the board that turned up is not at all like the one you thought youíd ordered? Hmm...
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 14, 2018, 04:17:34 AM
Thatís a magnificent looking board.

But can I ask about this?:

ďREDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.Ē

So, the board that turned up is not at all like the one you thought youíd ordered? Hmm...

I'd spoke to lightsignature not too long ago. It's not a redesign but there was some fettling of the drainage, added height of the sidewalls and some volume tweaks. It was basically some tinkering with the moulds, not a brand new board. I'm personally waiting to see what their new allwater board looks like.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2018, 04:34:45 AM
Thatís a magnificent looking board.

But can I ask about this?:

ďREDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.Ē

So, the board that turned up is not at all like the one you thought youíd ordered? Hmm...

I'd spoke to lightsignature not too long ago. It's not a redesign but there was some fettling of the drainage, added height of the sidewalls and some volume tweaks. It was basically some tinkering with the moulds, not a brand new board. I'm personally waiting to see what their new allwater board looks like.

I see. Itís a ďcomplete redesignĒ that amounts to ďsome tinkering with the mouldsĒ. Thanks for clearing that up - I was a bit confused there for a moment :)

Whatever, the board looks more conventional than the original one we saw, so I presume that the designer has started to actually paddle the thing rather than go by what should work in theory alone :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 14, 2018, 04:56:51 AM
Thatís a magnificent looking board.

But can I ask about this?:

ďREDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.Ē

So, the board that turned up is not at all like the one you thought youíd ordered? Hmm...

I'd spoke to lightsignature not too long ago. It's not a redesign but there was some fettling of the drainage, added height of the sidewalls and some volume tweaks. It was basically some tinkering with the moulds, not a brand new board. I'm personally waiting to see what their new allwater board looks like.

I see. Itís a ďcomplete redesignĒ that amounts to ďsome tinkering with the mouldsĒ. Thanks for clearing that up - I was a bit confused there for a moment :)

Whatever, the board looks more conventional than the original one we saw, so I presume that the designer has started to actually paddle the thing rather than go by what should work in theory alone :)

I don't know. Coincidentally, one of the paddlers in the UK has been racing the mk1 this year. There are some videos kicking around of it. I haven't been stunned by its impact yet though.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2018, 05:42:45 AM
Thatís a magnificent looking board.

But can I ask about this?:

ďREDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.Ē

So, the board that turned up is not at all like the one you thought youíd ordered? Hmm...

I'd spoke to lightsignature not too long ago. It's not a redesign but there was some fettling of the drainage, added height of the sidewalls and some volume tweaks. It was basically some tinkering with the moulds, not a brand new board. I'm personally waiting to see what their new allwater board looks like.

@ AREA10
Thanks - I do enjoy the way my design came out - very much so actually.

As for the REDESIGN...
Let me be blunt here: my new board feels different, and absolutely and 100% behaves differently in the water. Heck, let me be even more blunt: The new blue board is way more stable than the previous green one. The new blue board doesn't give you the same glide - and not by a long shot. I had to actually measure the width to see if they didn't give me the 24.75" instead of the 23" - but no.

Sure, I can tell they have redesigned the deck, especially the standing area - but it didn't stop there.
1. The bow has a tremendous amount of additional volume (catches wind like you wouldn't believe compared to version #1).
2. On top of the additional nose volume, the bow now has a distinct V shape (it's nice because it sheds water quicker, but like I said: it also catches wind)
3. The old bow looked like nothing else out there in the World of SUP - the new redesigned bow looks like another board on the market.
4. The old board rested in the water - the new one is like a cork. I am a lightweight paddler, and DO NOT LIKE IT as much as the previous version.
5. Because of all the extra volume (and mind you the other one had plenty of volume for my weight) the new board is heavier.
6. Sprinting feels a lot more sluggish off the start - but again the board is more stable.

All and all, I feel like the version #1 14x23 was finally a board designed for lighter paddlers. I now totally feel like this board is more designed for the heavier Germans or similar.

How much do I dislike it OR how much do I like it?
I am keeping it, but I am shocked my the change of behaviour. It's still faster than the Ace, still gives me a great workout, still handles the flats well, and it's still light. It's just not at all what I have been TOTALLY ENJOYING for the last 3 weeks.

The colors have a lot to do with me keeping this board.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 14, 2018, 06:22:29 AM
Thatís a magnificent looking board.

But can I ask about this?:

ďREDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.Ē

So, the board that turned up is not at all like the one you thought youíd ordered? Hmm...

I'd spoke to lightsignature not too long ago. It's not a redesign but there was some fettling of the drainage, added height of the sidewalls and some volume tweaks. It was basically some tinkering with the moulds, not a brand new board. I'm personally waiting to see what their new allwater board looks like.

@ AREA10
Thanks - I do enjoy the way my design came out - very much so actually.

As for the REDESIGN...
Let me be blunt here: my new board feels different, and absolutely and 100% behaves differently in the water. Heck, let me be even more blunt: The new blue board is way more stable than the previous green one. The new blue board doesn't give you the same glide - and not by a long shot. I had to actually measure the width to see if they didn't give me the 24.75" instead of the 23" - but no.

Sure, I can tell they have redesigned the deck, especially the standing area - but it didn't stop there.
1. The bow has a tremendous amount of additional volume (catches wind like you wouldn't believe compared to version #1).
2. On top of the additional nose volume, the bow now has a distinct V shape (it's nice because it sheds water quicker, but like I said: it also catches wind)
3. The old bow looked like nothing else out there in the World of SUP - the new redesigned bow looks like another board on the market.
4. The old board rested in the water - the new one is like a cork. I am a lightweight paddler, and DO NOT LIKE IT as much as the previous version.
5. Because of all the extra volume (and mind you the other one had plenty of volume for my weight) the new board is heavier.
6. Sprinting feels a lot more sluggish off the start - but again the board is more stable.

All and all, I feel like the version #1 14x23 was finally a board designed for lighter paddlers. I now totally feel like this board is more designed for the heavier Germans or similar.

How much do I dislike it OR how much do I like it?
I am keeping it, but I am shocked my the change of behaviour. It's still faster than the Ace, still gives me a great workout, still handles the flats well, and it's still light. It's just not at all what I have been TOTALLY ENJOYING for the last 3 weeks.

The colors have a lot to do with me keeping this board.

Personally, this reads like you think its not as good as the old design. If that's the case, I'd be sending it back and offering to buy the demo board you had.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2018, 06:32:34 AM
I am still pondering on that one...
There are pros and cons - if I were to decide to get the DEMO board.

PROS
Seemingly, way more adapted to my needs, abilities and my weight, and a super light board.

CONS
I admit I really like how the blue & white came out - letting it go is gonna be tough.
The demo model has been used and abused by a bunch of clueless people. It's far from being an equivalent swap.

In the end, I cannot emphasise enough how different the new board feels. The new board feels like it's dragging seaweed. They have changed the bow, but a bow can easily affect a board overall gliding ability. The Mark I Nelo board is without a doubt more adapted to my needs, especially after having moved inland.
 
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: SupSimcoe on May 14, 2018, 06:36:25 AM
For that much money I would not compromise. I would request the version 1 in your colour as I doubt they trashed the expensive molds.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2018, 09:12:20 AM
Maybe theyíve sold you a prototype by mistake?

Whatever, you ordered one board and got another. That isnít acceptable.

Iím sorry that this has happened to you - your excitement about, and anticipation of, your new deal board was infectious and if this isnít the board for you then that is miserable.

Btw, the average man in Wales is even heavier than the average German. So maybe itís the fault of the Welsh? :)

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 14, 2018, 09:47:47 AM
"Seemingly, way more adapted to my needs, abilities and my weight, and a super light board."

That is the board you should be using.  If we ordered a 23 and they delivered a revised Gen 2 board that was jacked up in volume and felt like it was dragging seaweed -> that would be a big no go.

Ask that they re-furb the demo and swap it for you with a big discount.  They will no longer have any use for it anyways.  Maybe they can source other much better condition Gen 1 boards as well from others that want to trade up for more stability anyways.  They should be able to address your concerns and get you what you ordered excepting the custom blue.

But would def not settle for a more stable board that was corky and draggy and heavier than bargained for.  That Gen 1 sounded like a much better board for your requirements.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2018, 09:59:49 AM
Surely... life is full of choices.
This isn't about going to a fast food, and trying to decide on a Cheeseburger vs. a Chicken sandwich. The choice I am now facing is so bizarre, unexpected, and heartbreaking. Currently PONDERING, sadly.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2018, 10:20:05 AM
Why does buying a SUP (at least in Europe) so frequently turn into some long drawn-out time- and money-wasting saga? Iíve lost count of the number of times that for either me or my friends the wrong boards have turned up, or theyíve turned up late or damaged or not at all, or with some construction defect like a handle in the wrong place, or a finbox not set into high density foam, or with paint that flakes off immediately etc etc. With one Cobra-built board I received, when you lifted the board and tilted one end you could hear something that sounded like a small marble run down the centre under the deck almost from nose to tail. What the HELL was that??? So back it went with another 4 month wait for the replacement, and I was none the wiser.

So, I wish this kind of nonsense was rare but Iím sorry to say that in my experience it isnít. That doesnít help you at all of course, but Iím sure many of us can identify with your frustration and disappointment right now. I hope it turns out well for you, whatever you decide to do.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 14, 2018, 10:44:55 AM
Why does buying a SUP (at least in Europe) so frequently turn into some long drawn-out time- and money-wasting saga?

Because EC has a mandatory two years warranty period of consumer products, they want you take the full advantage of the longer warranty :-)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: SupSimcoe on May 14, 2018, 11:19:11 AM
This is all why I am building my own hollow Paulownia wood paddle board with a VLZ 14 Kit from Clearwoodpaddleboards. It is not anywhere near as light but you can build 4 of them for the same price as a Nelo and I am able to customise with all the features I want.

I know that Clearwood are working on the drop deck version of the VLZ and an all water race board as well.

I know that I will have more than 60 hours into the board and about $1100 CAD in actual cost total but looking at standard construction there is not $4000 plus in materials and labor in any of these EPS or Hollow Carbon/fibreglass boards. We are paying for retailers, Distributors, shipping, marketing, R&D, racing and markup just because they can.

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 14, 2018, 11:51:31 AM
These are beautiful boards.
UL is very tempting except for the 40 lbs weight:
http://clearwoodpaddleboards.com/product/cascade-unlimited-length-sup/ (http://clearwoodpaddleboards.com/product/cascade-unlimited-length-sup/)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2018, 12:22:26 PM
Bottom line AND the biggest dilemma so far is that the new board appears slower with my 59 kilos on it.

Sure... only 3 days on it so far - but here's what I am noticing thus far:
- The green board Mark I - was more than 0.7 km/h faster than the Sprint 14x23.
- The blue board Mark II - is showing the same speed or slightly slower than my Sprint 14x23 - granted, with limited data so far.


I am thinking out loud...
The Sprint 14x23 didn't feel corky, and it was darn versatile. Its biggest downfall was that it was built with styrofoam, and was a bit heavy (about 3 kilos heavier).

The Nelo Mark I - didn't feel corky, was a blast, and provided a glide above and beyond what was expected. The feeling of glide cannot be expressed enough. The lightweight of the board was a joy and very obvious. This board was plenty versatile for my needs. Heck, it even put a smile on my face when riding a boat wake. The color isn't as nice as the blue board, but I actually like that green. However, the board isn't new - and far from it. It even has a little hole that will need repairing.

The Nelo Mark II - Aside from numbers, the feeling (of the magical glide experienced on the Green board and on the Sprint UL) is gone. The green has however been replaced with a beautiful custom color scheme that I appreciate very much - but is it enough? I don't and will not want to wait another 3 months to take delivery of a new board.

NEXT?
I think I will keep the blue board for a week or so, put in 100's of miles and give it a fair chance. I'll go ahead and play around with different fins and see if I can get a difference pointing in the right direction.

AREA10: thanks - I appreciate it.
It's a sad day in Europe - but... Have I been spoiled with a board seemingly built for my lightweight and/or ...
have I just been spoiled by American customer service / accuracy gear communication / thoughtful quality control?

I do remember the days when:
No shaper in Hawaii would dare put out a product with a single defect.
No one would put out a product with specs different from the original request.

But I also remember the day when Cannondale bikes (formerly built in the USA) went to China - and when I stopped biking Cannondales. (note: I was biking 2 to 3 bikes every two years - for nearly 20 years on Cannondales). I am however digressing...

My only hopes on this Mark II is that it actually serves a purpose for stronger paddlers, or simply paddlers who are just a little heavier.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: JEG on May 14, 2018, 02:42:07 PM
Why does buying a SUP (at least in Europe) so frequently turn into some long drawn-out time- and money-wasting saga? Iíve lost count of the number of times that for either me or my friends the wrong boards have turned up, or theyíve turned up late or damaged or not at all, or with some construction defect like a handle in the wrong place, or a finbox not set into high density foam, or with paint that flakes off immediately etc etc. With one Cobra-built board I received, when you lifted the board and tilted one end you could hear something that sounded like a small marble run down the centre under the deck almost from nose to tail. What the HELL was that??? So back it went with another 4 month wait for the replacement, and I was none the wiser.

So, I wish this kind of nonsense was rare but Iím sorry to say that in my experience it isnít. That doesnít help you at all of course, but Iím sure many of us can identify with your frustration and disappointment right now. I hope it turns out well for you, whatever you decide to do.

I'm hearing you Area 10, it makes me  ::)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 14, 2018, 04:14:09 PM
Have you discussed this with Light signature at all ?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on May 14, 2018, 11:13:08 PM
Forget about the color while you make your decision, phofo.

From all your oozingís the main thing I heard was: speed. Iíd expect you to take the faster one.

Can you get the demo board again so you can try them back to back?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on May 14, 2018, 11:55:36 PM
What does your dealer say?
Did you have the information that you will get the Signature 2.0?
If in doubt, try to contact Gerd Weisner of Lightboardcorp. Lightboard is very accommodating.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 15, 2018, 12:12:31 AM
What does your dealer say?
Did you have the information that you will get the Signature 2.0?
If in doubt, try to contact Gerd Weisner of Lightboardcorp. Lightboard is very accommodating.

I have to agree with this. Colour is one thing but ultimately you'll get past that and be left with the paddling experience. Trust me, if that's an issue, you'll be left with an expensive mistake. You have the right to get what you liked. Ask Gert, I've always found him friendly and very good at discussions surrounding his product.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 01:00:31 AM
Itís Gerd not Gert.

Theyíve clearly sent you the 2.0 model.

https://www.light-sup.com

Not surprising I guess: did you specifically ask for a 1.0 version?

If you tried a 2017 All Star and then ordered an All Star from Starboard, youíd get the 2018 not the 2017 model.

Thatís a big nose. I havenít tried many big nose flat water designs over the last 11 years that have been successful. I can see that theyíve tried to make this a bit more of an all-waters design by increasing the nose volume but IMO if you arenít careful you end up with something thatís neither fish nor fowl. Big noses take a lot of pushing, especially into wind and chop.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 15, 2018, 03:17:12 AM
Itís Gerd not Gert.

Theyíve clearly sent you the 2.0 model.

https://www.light-sup.com

Not surprising I guess: did you specifically ask for a 1.0 version?

If you tried a 2017 All Star and then ordered an All Star from Starboard, youíd get the 2018 not the 2017 model.

Thatís a big nose. I havenít tried many big nose flat water designs over the last 11 years that have been successful. I can see that theyíve tried to make this a bit more of an all-waters design by increasing the nose volume but IMO if you arenít careful you end up with something thatís neither fish nor fowl. Big noses take a lot of pushing, especially into wind and chop.

I tried the Version 1.0 - and immediately discussed two things:
A) Glide / Speed
B) Construction

When we talked about construction, it was clearly stated to me that being a Mold construction, we wouldn't see  any modification for a few years - as with all surfskis. It made complete sense, because I would have never once imagined that such a great board for light paddlers would be modified so quickly, now aiming at heavier paddlers.

To answer other questions - and to look at options:
1. The best my rep could do is to provide me with a version 1.0 with my colors. That's the best of the BEST case scenario, but highly unlikely.The worst part about this scenario is the waiting period to get it built. We are already in mid May, and there's no way I will waste my summer over a board. Contacting the rep therefore makes little or no sense - not to mention that getting me a replacement built will be super unlikely.

2. Contacting Lightcorp may actually be the best route. Asking / begging them to trade my new version 2 board for a new-and-in-stock version 1 board might actually be more realistic for me. In this scenario, driving the current board to Germany and swapping isn't out of the question, but what a royal pain (14 hours or more).

3. I guess I could sell or trade this board for any 14x21.5 - and give up on durability / hollow construction. In this case, I would most likely go with a Starboard Sprint 2017 (or 2018 if I must) - or a Mistral - or anything similar designed for lighter paddlers.

4. I have been spoiled - but removing the version out of the picture, I have to admit that the current board is STILL an amazing board. It doesn't have a horrible glide; it's actually quite nice, just not as nice for ME as the green board (version 1). The construction meets and exceeds my expectations; it's solid. The colors are stellar. It's a freekin' nice board - period. So... it's a little slower, but nothing that good / great training couldn't overcome. We all know that a new board can bring 0.3 to 0.7 km/h difference in speed, but great training and endurance can bring A LOT MORE. I guess I could go that route, since it's a beautiful board, and bound to be quite durable.

So back to square one:
I'll play with fins - try to get the speed up and see.
I'll give the Germans a call and see if they are interested in a swap.
I am open to other suggestions.


Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on May 15, 2018, 03:32:51 AM
Borrow a demo V1 again so you can test them back to back. That'll help you make your decision.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 15, 2018, 03:48:41 AM
Itís Gerd not Gert.

Thatís a big nose. I havenít tried many big nose flat water designs over the last 11 years that have been successful. I can see that theyíve tried to make this a bit more of an all-waters design by increasing the nose volume.

Yep I know - pre cereal typo.

I must admit, its got me confused as when I spoke to him, I was led to believe the tweaks would be minor and that there was a seperate allwater board coming out. However, now I'm wondering if something was lost in translation and this was intended to be one board of an amalgamation of those ideas, not two seperate ones (so the 2.0  is basically what he meant).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on May 15, 2018, 04:20:57 AM
There will definitely be an allwater board and that's different than the Signature 2.0.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 04:36:25 AM
Is this the signature 1.0 that photofr had as a demo?

https://youtu.be/QiYCCJUI2B4

And/or this one:

https://youtu.be/F1176Elymw4

And this is the 2.0 he actually got?

https://vimeo.com/264510203
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 15, 2018, 04:47:55 AM


And this is the 2.0 he actually got?

https://vimeo.com/264510203

It looks to me like the nose rocker has been altered. The water is nowhere near the noses leading edge like the original one was. I'm wondering is its a separate mould entirely, not tweaks to the 1.0.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 15, 2018, 04:50:55 AM
.....because I would have never once imagined that such a great board for light paddlers would be modified so quickly, now aiming at heavier paddlers.


I'm surprised about this as their team paddlers are neither big nor heavy in appearance. Its an odd change to be sure as it wasn't low in volume to begin with. It might be worth asking specifically what the volume change from  the 1.0 to the 2.0 actually was.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on May 15, 2018, 06:11:48 AM
Is this the signature 1.0 that photofr had as a demo?


Video 1 + 2 are Signatur 1.0
Video 3 is Signature 2.0
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 07:45:13 AM
Is this the signature 1.0 that photofr had as a demo?


Video 1 + 2 are Signatur 1.0
Video 3 is Signature 2.0

Ok well the 1.0 looks likely to have a bit of an issue with pitching, if you had a heavy strong paddler on board. Also looks tippy. Which is presumably why 2.0 has a bigger nose. But now theyíve increased nose size without increasing the tail similarly, the board is going to weathervane like crazy in strong sidewinds, and upwind youíve got a big nose to catch all the ripples and wind, that you are going to have to grind against. I suspect that these guys are on a steep learning curve about the realities and restrictions of SUP design. Itís a helluva thing to find just the right balance, especially when you are restricted in length by race regulations. The 1.0 looks like a sleek flatwater missile for a light person so I can see why photofr liked it.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 15, 2018, 08:12:00 AM
"When we talked about construction, it was clearly stated to me that being a Mold construction, we wouldn't see  any modification for a few years - as with all surfskis. It made complete sense, because I would have never once imagined that such a great board for light paddlers would be modified so quickly, now aiming at heavier paddlers."

"we updated the top mold of the very fast LIGHTCORP SIGNATURE MODEL to suit rougher water conditions"

Sounds less and less a flat water board.  But there must have been enough rider input to push this quick change.  Similar for me with the 2016 AS.  That board is very low slung vs the 2017.  Starboard riders found it was pearling in rough water races so a bunch of nose volume was added.  Pros and cons.

So can understand the move to higher sidewalls and a longer front ratio.  This should keep the cockpit drier for those pushing the board hard during races.  It must have been an issue to necessitate such a quick design change.  Nevertheless if given an option for flat water -> the Gen 1 is the right board.  The Gen 2 def looks better for rougher water.  Unfortunately the offside seems to be less glide and less speed.

Sounds like whoever told you there would be no modifications should sort this out on your behalf.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 15, 2018, 11:14:08 AM
.....because I would have never once imagined that such a great board for light paddlers would be modified so quickly, now aiming at heavier paddlers.


I'm surprised about this as their team paddlers are neither big nor heavy in appearance. Its an odd change to be sure as it wasn't low in volume to begin with. It might be worth asking specifically what the volume change from  the 1.0 to the 2.0 actually was.

I spoke briefly to one of their German paddlers. The guy is like 92 kilos - and TALL. Perhaps that is why they added more volume up front, which later changed the entire board's behaviour.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 01:20:14 PM
Yeah, you canít change one design aspect of a decent board without changing a bunch of others, otherwise youíd end up with a right dogís dinner. So by the time youíve made all these other adjustments that are required to balance out the new feature, youíve ended up with an entirely different board.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 15, 2018, 01:26:51 PM
Very little is said about this new and updated hollow board - Version 2.0

I will now share couple of things I have noticed, and back it up with some photos. As you will notice, it's not all bad - in fact, most of the changes are positive ones, even though it affects me as a super lightweight paddler lacking muscle mass.

First of all: I could be wrong, but it looks to me like version 1.0 is gone and has completely been replaced with version 2.0. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.

Moving on and looking at version 2.0 - it looks like it has undergone some drastic changes, and I am sorry for saying so, but I wouldn't consider any of them as minor, especially when board stability and speed is affected so drastically.

The new board is now more stable, and there's no denying that it does a great job at keeping water off your standing area.

The highly pronounced V of the standing area of version 1.0 is almost completely flattened out - thus providing
a much more natural stance.

There something very beautiful at the sharp V of the nose - and it actually works very well going upwind, or against boat wakes.

The fin that Lightcorp provides is the second heaviest fin I have ever owned. Changing it with the Maliko fin from Blackproject made a World of difference in a) stability (way more stable) and b) tracking (now tracks beautifully) and c) weight (it just made the board that much lighter).

HULL
As far as I know, the hull hasn't been changed, although the version 2.0 has gained an amazing amount of stability. Its hull is still rather rounded - as far as SUP boards go. Perhaps this image will illustrate the beauty of efficiency of its hull.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-KLVjMSN/0/c72e5f00/L/06468-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-KLVjMSN/A)

NOSE HEIGHT
The nose volume has been increased many folds - in fact, it looks like it's about twice the volume of version 1.0 - The following image shows how much volume I am talking about. Take a moment and look twice, because the piece of wood is placed on the HULL!
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-XrLJSF6/0/0a564332/L/06471-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-XrLJSF6/A)

STANDING DECK
Interestingly enough, the deck looks quite deep. In fact, it isn't as deep as you'd think. Sure, the sidewalls are said to be taller, and I they are - but your standing area could be lowered by about another inch to add even more stability. Difficult to notice, but there is still a V shape standing area... from the handle, it slopes DOWN slightly - slightly only when you compare it with version 1.0 because it slopes down a lot compared to traditional boards I have tried.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-n7Q5PvQ/0/32fb7499/L/06476-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-n7Q5PvQ/A)

FINS
I have tried a total of 3 fins today. The Maliko from Black Project is by far a dream come true for this particular board. This is not bashing... I am just stating what really works well and complements this board. The original fin that came with it needs to be revisited.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-T5GNBt2/0/94ca89ad/L/06480-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-T5GNBt2/A)

NEWER MODELS
It is what it is. Seemingly, version 1.0 was aimed at 80% flat water and 20% all around (my best guess mind you). Version 2.0 is apparently aimed at 60% all around, and 40% flat water (again, my best guess). Seems rather strange when the company communicated on releasing an all water board some time really soon.

Nothing is following a logical path... but let's keep things in prospective:
The board is super durable.
No more stupid styrofoam.
Hollow construction that is just super light - as soon as you remove their fin.
Amongst some the top glides currently available on a 14' board.
Now with even more stability than I know what to do with.
Darn colors: I lov' them - and you too can customise your board's look.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 01:36:06 PM
Well, if I had the choice Iíd take the 2.0. But then Iím a balance-challenged 83kgs who is a ďbrute forceĒ paddler with no technical sophistication.

And itís not me who has bought what I thought was going to be the 1.0.

Nice looking board though.

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: JEG on May 15, 2018, 02:19:37 PM
thanks for the pics and nice board.
I'm no board designer but there's a find balance between speed and stability.
That maliko fin is not stable and no tracking but speed yes.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 02:41:05 PM
If that was my board Iíd be trying the VMG Blades Mako 35 in it. Faster than the BP Maliko. Lighter too.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 15, 2018, 09:08:17 PM
thanks for the pics and nice board.
I'm no board designer but there's a find balance between speed and stability.
That maliko fin is not stable and no tracking but speed yes.

With Black Project fins, I found the Tiger to be my favorite for long distance. It is the lightest fin I have owned, the the fastest. I also found that it worked best with my weight on the Sprint UL and the Sprint 14x23 and the Nelo series 1.0 board - with the perfect amount of tracking for the above boards, and very predictable stability.

The Maliko, on the other hand, provides amazing additional stability, and excellent tracking. Weed is a question of the past with this fin. Mainly for its tracking, I find that it works best on the Ace 14x25 and the Allstar 14x25 - and now the Nelo series 2.0 board which needed tracking boosting with my weight. The Maliko is super light compared to the stock Lightcorp fin, but it isn't as light as the Tiger.

So who's got a fin that's lighter than the Tiger?
Mine came in at a whopping 121 grams.

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 15, 2018, 09:14:54 PM
The VMG Blades Mako 35 looks to be a good contender - but perhaps not so good for inland debris (a frequent problem that I had to wrap my head around). It's nothing like the crystal waters far off of Rabbit Island / Makapuķ
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 09:45:04 PM
The VMG Blades Mako 35 looks to be a good contender - but perhaps not so good for inland debris (a frequent problem that I had to wrap my head around). It's nothing like the crystal waters far off of Rabbit Island / Makapuķ

In very weedy water I find the VMG Mako actually better than the Maliko at shedding weeds. Weed-shedding is all about the little point where the blade meets the underside of the board. Even a steeply raked fin can catch weed if thereís a sharp angle there. The VMG fins all have a slight angle at the base of the leading edge, and tend to be quite shallow. So they shed weeds very well. The Mako is an excellent flat water fin with the least drag of any fin Iíve ever tried (and Iíve got a huge range of SUP fins). I use mine for paddling on a weedy sheltered inland canal.

Actually, given your weight and technical competence, you could use the Mako 28. It weighs 157g.

The two downsides to the VMG Blades fins are however the cost and that they are fairly fragile (carbon over a light core). But if you want a really low drag and light fin, they are perfect. The foil is like no other, and it really works.

The 7.0 SIC weedless Carbon fin would also be good for you, if you wanted a much cheaper option - and if you can actually get hold of one. The 8.3Ē one is too big, itís the 7.0 you want. They are an absolute bargain (if you can persuade the distributor to sell you one - for some reason SIC seem determined to restrict the circulation of them, and push the 8.3, which is nuts because the 7.0 is much better, and as most people find to their surprise, you donít need a bigger fin). The carbon 7.0 weedless is a very nice light fin and itís pretty durable for carbon (there is also a plastic one which is extremely durable and frankly just as good, really - just a tiny bit heavier).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 15, 2018, 10:13:20 PM
With Black Project fins, I found the Tiger to be my favorite for long distance. It is the lightest fin I have owned, the the fastest. I also found that it worked best with my weight on the Sprint UL and the Sprint 14x23 and the Nelo series 1.0 board - with the perfect amount of tracking for the above boards, and very predictable stability.

Have you tried the Sonic. I really like it and use it with my Ace-GT and Vapor with zero problem for tracking instead of the Mako 37.
I am surprised that you use such a large and deep fin on the pin-tail of the Ace.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 15, 2018, 10:24:01 PM
In my experience, it's the nose that dictates the size of fin for tracking purposes.

The ACE has a very rounded nose. I find it great for drafting and releasing itself for surfing. The problem with that is that it's all over the place on flat water.

On the opposite end of the spectrum lies the Sprint UL (sharp nose that acts as a front fin and tracks from the front). For this reason, I was able to get away with very little surface area on the rear fin - while using the Sprint or similar.

The new version 2.0 Nelo board was all over the place similar to the Ace.

CAREFUL:
Don't take my words for it.
This is very dependant on YOUR board and YOUR weight.
Choose a fin that works for you.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 15, 2018, 11:10:47 PM
Yeah for the Dom and M14 the SIC 7.0 works best.  On the AS the Elite or SIC 7.0 depending on AW or DW.  On the Bullet the plastic Touring or SIC 8.3 DW.  While on the Touring pin the Hybrid or OEM Race 23 work best.  So does depend on the board and the use and what ride you want.  Just personal preferences to tweak is all.

But for max speed the SIC 7.0 is fastest for me but has the least amount of tracking.  Catches zero weeds.  Note both the carbon SIC fins come in old fat and new thin profiles.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 15, 2018, 11:37:37 PM
Demo a 14ft starboard sprint in a 21.5 width. It's beyond my own ability but its proving surprisingly popular and has an amazing glide at that size.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 16, 2018, 12:10:13 AM
Has anyone compared the new LIGHTCORP boards with the NSP Ninja boards?

Someone on my Facebook page just brought to my attention that the two boards are really similar, especially looking at the tail and the standing area (which look so close to identical)

Can anyone shed some light on this?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2018, 12:50:51 AM

The Mako is an excellent flat water fin with the least drag of any fin Iíve ever tried (and Iíve got a huge range of SUP fins). I use mine for paddling on a weedy sheltered inland canal.


Yep, I agree and I tested this formally. I do believe the Tiger should be faster but its smaller size can exaggerate any stroke or tracking inefficiencies so it may not suit everyone. You need to pair it with the board. For example, for flatwater racing, I use the Maliko in my current board (a 2017 24.5 Allstar) but used the Tiger in my race board last year (A Naish Maliko 26). As I'll probably go narrower next year, I'll likely stay with the Maliko fin. It's extremely well designed.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2018, 12:52:33 AM
Well, if I had the choice Iíd take the 2.0. But then Iím a balance-challenged 83kgs who is a ďbrute forceĒ paddler with no technical sophistication.

And itís not me who has bought what I thought was going to be the 1.0.

Nice looking board though.

Yep, I must admit, it's become more appealing to me as a result of this thread. That said, if its now got heavier, you have to wonder what benefits are really left for it as a product.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 16, 2018, 05:20:55 AM
Well, if I had the choice Iíd take the 2.0. But then Iím a balance-challenged 83kgs who is a ďbrute forceĒ paddler with no technical sophistication.

And itís not me who has bought what I thought was going to be the 1.0.

Nice looking board though.

...you have to wonder what benefits are really left for it as a product.

Benefits?
You still get a very light 14' board in under 10 kilos... that coupled with the great durability of gelcoat that you find on surfskis. For Earth conscious people, you will now do without the Styrofoam (another plus in my books).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 16, 2018, 05:48:15 AM
In the entire history of SUP racing, has anyone ever lost a podium place because their board was 3-4lbs heavier than it might have been?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2018, 05:55:44 AM
In the entire history of SUP racing, has anyone ever lost a podium place because their board was 3-4lbs heavier than it might have been?

I missed a result in a SUP sprint once because (upon reflection) I was personally 14lbs heavier than I should have been. ;D (but no, insofar as kayak and rowing research seems to suggest, that percentage of weight is going to have very little (likely no) impact in a typical distance event.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 16, 2018, 05:57:35 AM
In the entire history of SUP racing, has anyone ever lost a podium place because their board was 3-4lbs heavier than it might have been?

In the history of "a man having fun with the elements" - has anyone felt like crap because their board was heavy? (especially after 40+ km) :) :) :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2018, 05:59:49 AM
In the entire history of SUP racing, has anyone ever lost a podium place because their board was 3-4lbs heavier than it might have been?

In the history of "a man having fun with the elements" - has anyone felt like crap because their board was heavy? (especially after 40+ km) :) :) :)

No. The human body alone could see nearly the same amount in day to day bodymass drift. I doubt you'd really notice it unless you're doing a lot of accelerations from low speeds (i.e. SUP surfing).

If I feel like crap, it's likely because I'm tired from training, not because I'm 4lbs over my norm at my feet.  ;D
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 16, 2018, 06:05:13 AM
My sprint was like 11.8 kilos with the ultra light fin.
My Nelo is more than 3 kilos lighter - that's 6.6 pounds!!!!!!

A 6-pound difference is HUGE - especially when:
a) you are a super light paddler.
b) you are launching your board from one sprint to the next (during a flat water race, but especially DW).
c) you are paddling long distance

There is a remarkable difference, super noticeable on a surfski that glides way better than our slugs. But don't take my word for it. Just place a 6.6 pound water container on your next 35 km run and tell me all about it the next day.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2018, 06:21:27 AM
My sprint was like 11.8 kilos with the ultra light fin.
My Nelo is more than 3 kilos lighter - that's 6.6 pounds!!!!!!

A 6-pound difference is HUGE - especially when:
a) you are a super light paddler.
b) you are launching your board from one sprint to the next (during a flat water race, but especially DW).
c) you are paddling long distance

There is a remarkable difference, super noticeable on a surfski that glides way better than our slugs. But don't take my word for it. Just place a 6.6 pound water container on your next 35 km run and tell me all about it the next day.

I can only speak with any confidence about c). I intentionally dropped 14lbs over the course of 3 months last year to get ready for a bike event. I've kept it off since then. Over the length of a 2 hour paddle (15-18km), I haven't measured any reliable difference.

(note: However, I did get a real boost in speed from dropping from my 2017 race board to my 2018 that saw a drop in width of 1.5 inches. However, if I were doing sprint races or efforts, yep, physics 101 is obviously going to agree with you.)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on May 16, 2018, 06:22:20 AM
In the entire history of SUP racing, has anyone ever lost a podium place because their board was 3-4lbs heavier than it might have been?

Or for that matter, because their fin was 3oz heavier ::)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 07:39:24 AM
I have been very curious about the topic of marginal weight.

Naish is only producing the Maliko in 2018.
All its racers use the Maliko and have decent results in various race conditions including "flat" water.
The Maliko is not using any carbon in its layout except a small band/stringer.
As a result the weight has been reported around 27 lbs for a low volume board with no displacement nose.

To me it brings two opposite possible conclusions:
1) Racers use the same production board (like NSP's team) and the added weight/flexibility has no effect on their performance including on "flat" water
2) Racers are provided with customs boards as they perform better (measured or perceived)

I had the chance to use two identical boards - Bark Vapor - one with only carbon at the bottom (27.6 lbs) and one with carbon top and bottom (24.6 lbs) for some time (these were my own boards). I did not do any GPS comparison swapping boards in the same conditions so I can only comment on my impressions but on a board that I know relatively well and have used for several months.
On "flat" light conditions, the slightly stiffer and lighter model is my first choice for ease of paddling and fun factor. On bigger/winder/choppier/messier conditions the more flexible and heavier model is my preferred choice.
Nothing very dramatic of course but subtle differences.

I did sell the heavier model as having two identical boards is a bit of a waste and I was not going to be having to decide which one to load on the car depending on expected conditions so it would have defeated the purpose based on Murphy's law.

ps: I did not really notice much of a difference regarding the weight of the fin on this specific board. On the other hand, on the Whiplash (22 lbs) I find that having a light carbon fin versus a fibreglass fin change a little bit the feel of the board. That said the fibreglass fin can also have its own quality and advantages so it is not an absolute don't....
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on May 16, 2018, 08:55:22 AM
ps: I did not really notice much of a difference regarding the weight of the fin on this specific board. On the other hand, on the Whiplash (22 lbs) I find that having a light carbon fin versus a fibreglass fin change a little bit the feel of the board. That said the fibreglass fin can also have its own quality and advantages so it is not an absolute don't....

I had the same fin (7inch Stinger) both in Carbon (171g) and fiberglass construction (275g). Tested both on my Blackfish 14x24 (19Lbs) in flat water.
Outside of carrying the board in and out of the water, there was no difference between the 2 as far as I could tell, not even academic.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 16, 2018, 09:11:18 AM
Yep, Iíve got identical model fins for both racing and surfing in both carbon and fibreglass (and even plastic). Apart from crazily-flexible plastic ones when surfing, when you can notice a slight difference, I have noticed no performance differences between the cheap and durable fins and the same ones in a light and fragile layup. Itís just that the carbon ones are so easily damaged. So I tend not to use them as much, which is crazy since they are usually about twice the price.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on May 16, 2018, 09:51:33 AM
Itís just that the carbon ones are so easily damaged. So I tend not to use them as much, which is crazy since they are usually about twice the price.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

I guess in our fellow zoner case, he already parted from boatload of money to get the heavier board what's another 200 euros on a fin to shave 3 more ounces, even
if its deep as an anchor. I can see how it make total sense ::)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 09:52:21 AM
ps: I did not really notice much of a difference regarding the weight of the fin on this specific board. On the other hand, on the Whiplash (22 lbs) I find that having a light carbon fin versus a fibreglass fin change a little bit the feel of the board. That said the fibreglass fin can also have its own quality and advantages so it is not an absolute don't....

I had the same fin (7inch Stinger) both in Carbon (171g) and fiberglass construction (275g). Tested both on my Blackfish 14x24 (19Lbs) in flat water.
Outside of carrying the board in and out of the water, there was no difference between the 2 as far as I could tell, not even academic.

The Stinger does not have much flex to start with so even by Larry's own admission, this is the fin in his range that can benefit from been carbon light.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 09:55:37 AM
Itís just that the carbon ones are so easily damaged. So I tend not to use them as much, which is crazy since they are usually about twice the price.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

I guess in our fellow zoner case, he already parted from boatload of money to get the heavier board what's another 200 euros on a fin to shave 3 more ounces, even
if its deep as an anchor. I can see how it make total sense ::)

Be nice!
Buying fins is not a rational process anyway, we all know that.....is like a kid in a candy store, bad for you but so good.........
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on May 16, 2018, 10:03:35 AM
Itís just that the carbon ones are so easily damaged. So I tend not to use them as much, which is crazy since they are usually about twice the price.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

I guess in our fellow zoner case, he already parted from boatload of money to get the heavier board what's another 200 euros on a fin to shave 3 more ounces, even
if its deep as an anchor. I can see how it make total sense ::)

Be nice!
Buying fins is not a rational process anyway, we all know that.....is like a kid in a candy store, bad for you but so good.........

You're right. I'm sorry :-[

Yes, the Stinger will not lose any critical properties by switching to carbon, but durability will suffer.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 16, 2018, 10:06:08 AM
Hey - I wasnít criticising anyone for buying expensive fins! That would be the ultimate in hypocrisy. My comment about a fool and his money was a comment on my own behaviour.

Sometimes Iíve bought a fin just because it looks nice. Pitiful, really.

But Iíd really rather that all these super-expensive fins (Black Project, VMG etc etc) were all made of a more durable and cheaper material, even if it doubled the weight, because Iíve never bought a fin just because of the weight but I sure as hell have *not* bought one because it was going to cost too much. And the lighter fin will not perform significantly better. So what on Earth is the point??!

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on May 16, 2018, 10:20:44 AM
And the lighter fin will not perform significantly better. So what on Earth is the point??!

I can come up with 2 use cases why, It probably applies to me and maybe Luc.

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 10:36:55 AM
And the lighter fin will not perform significantly better. So what on Earth is the point??!

I can come up with 2 use cases why, It probably applies to me and maybe Luc.

Yes in my Whiplash for some reason having a lighter (buoyant?) fin improve the tail behavior and the feel of the board.
It is not a whoa incredible difference kind of thing but a subtle and definitely noticeable feel.
Outside of this specific case. Did not really notice that the weight change anything to the baking of the cake.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on May 16, 2018, 10:50:26 AM
And the lighter fin will not perform significantly better. So what on Earth is the point??!

I can come up with 2 use cases why, It probably applies to me and maybe Luc.

Yes in my Whiplash for some reason having a lighter (buoyant?) fin improve the tail behavior and the feel of the board.
It is not a whoa incredible difference kind of thing but a subtle and definitely noticeable feel.
Outside of this specific case. Did not really notice that the weight change anything to the baking of the cake.

 ;D I was going for something else.

I thought you might be silly enough like me to stop on a downwind run and change the fin to see the difference.
in that case a light floating fin would have an advantage in case a big bump comes along and throw you off sending
your fin to the bottom of the ocean.

The other case, when you have such a large collection and you want to brings bag of fins with you for your travels it is more
convenient to have lighter fins.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 12:40:59 PM
;D I was going for something else.

I thought you might be silly enough like me to stop on a downwind run and change the fin to see the difference.
in that case a light floating fin would have an advantage in case a big bump comes along and throw you off sending
your fin to the bottom of the ocean.

The other case, when you have such a large collection and you want to brings bag of fins with you for your travels it is more
convenient to have lighter fins.

 ;D

Also when you throw at the adulating crowds handful of fins during your victory walk after been the last of the race. Lighter fins hurt less.....
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: JEG on May 16, 2018, 02:44:40 PM
photofr, perhaps do a tests between fins such as BP - tiger & sonic and VMG - 35, 37 & TT and let us know how it goes with your board.
Also, dont forget mr LA fins as he knows a thing or two about fins ;)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 03:38:07 PM
photofr, perhaps do a tests between fins such as BP - tiger & sonic and VMG - 35, 37 & TT and let us know how it goes with your board.
Also, dont forget mr LA fins as he knows a thing or two about fins ;)

The Mako TT works really good in the flat or not so flat.
The 6" Stinger is also very nice but might be too short for that board stability (or not).
I also like the Sonic as an all-around/DW fin as an alternate to the Mako 37.
These three fins are my favourite on the Vapor but the Vapor has a fin box really at the back of the tail which is of very moderate volume/width.

I have never tried the Mako 35 or 28 nor the BP Tiger.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 16, 2018, 10:26:34 PM
FINS-r-US
It will be difficult for me to do fin tests, mainly because I do not have that many fins left. For the last two years, I have been using almost exclusively Black Project fins. My reasons? I have tested quite a few over the years, and the two Black Project fins work perfectly for all my current needs.

Speaking of fins...
Yesterday was quite windy, with intense gusts from time to time. I am getting used to the new 2.0 board, and there are quite a few things that I like about it. Two new things have come up.

BLOWN WITH THE WIND
As mentioned before, this board is very easily blow around when lateral wind starts blowing. There are advantages to having more nose volume, but that's the price a lighter paddler will have to pay. Keep in mind that I have NEVER been blown like this with any board before - although I have been in much stronger winds.

There are 3 possible fixes to this problem.
The first, raise the rear of the board (similar to an Ace) to offset the front end from being blow about. This may be feasible for future models, but I am not about to make modifications to this board.
The second, lower the nose back to its version 1.0 - but making the board more technical for downwind. I am not about to carry out these modification either.
The third, place a ventral fin (small fin box and small fin, placed about 3 feet in front my feet). This would also allow me to reduce the rear fin by about 2/3 of its surface area. This may be something I undertake, to avoid being blown like a butterfly in the wind.

CATCHING BUMPS
I can see why they've added volume in the front for this version 2.0 - it makes surfing / drafting / catching bumps / catching boat wakes a TOTAL BREEZE. I mean, it's child's play - just too easy.

Thanks to the board's super light weight, acceleration was swift, and actually remarkable. The nose was just floating on water, and clearly didn't want to burry itself with water. Board control was very easy - stability was insane. All of this made surfing the boat's wake a walk in the park. It was so easy that I didn't even have to move my feet back. It requires very little skill to surf, again, mainly because of its huge nose volume - and I am directly comparing this to the 1.0 board.

Now this is perhaps very personal, but the 1.0 board required more skills, but after taking two quick steps back, the board surfed really well too. Does a board have to be so easy, at the expense of being super difficult with side wind???

Food for thoughts.

For info... I was paddling with 3 other people. All experienced, one long time surfer, and none of them were able to get on the boat's wake. I took the ride for 2.2 kms - and I'll take that sort of fun any time.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 11:21:37 PM
A fourth option could be to use a smaller fin so that the tail is less resistant to the wind. Personally side wind is very important and that is key to our conditions.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 16, 2018, 11:26:50 PM
I am always eager to use my Tiger fin (very small surface area) in all conditions, 100% of the time - for nearly two years. However, with this board, the smaller fin doesn't track very well at all.

You make a good point though, and so: I'll give another chance, and see if I can bare the zig-zags on the flat while using the smaller fin. It's bound to be better for side wind then, but yesterday's experience was pretty crappy.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2018, 01:36:34 AM
Ok well it sounds like you need to ask yourself how often you are going to be encountering side winds, or surfing boat wakes.

One of the many things I greatly admire about the SIC RS design is how superb it is in side winds while still maintaining the advantages of plenty of volume in the nose. Itís a clever trick that Mark Raaphorst has managed there. So it is not inevitable that full noses mean terrible sidewind handling - nor do you need crazy high sidewalls at the tail like on the Ace either. But maybe you need a lot of experience in designing SUPs, and a decent amount of development time :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2018, 02:59:45 AM
One of the many things I greatly admire about the SIC RS design is how superb it is in side winds while still maintaining the advantages of plenty of volume in the nose. Itís a clever trick that Mark Raaphorst has managed there.

I have to say, I haven't heard anyone say anything bad about that board yet. I'd like a little more volume myself but it seems to tick all of the boxes for many people.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on May 17, 2018, 03:17:18 AM
Ö
BLOWN WITH THE WIND
As mentioned before, this board is very easily blow around when lateral wind starts blowing. There are advantages to having more nose volume, but that's the price a lighter paddler will have to pay. Keep in mind that I have NEVER been blown like this with any board before - although I have been in much stronger winds.
Ö

I imagine the 11 cities tour has lots of side winds
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2018, 04:37:51 AM
One of the many things I greatly admire about the SIC RS design is how superb it is in side winds while still maintaining the advantages of plenty of volume in the nose. Itís a clever trick that Mark Raaphorst has managed there.

I have to say, I haven't heard anyone say anything bad about that board yet. I'd like a little more volume myself but it seems to tick all of the boxes for many people.
Yeah it really is a beautifully-balanced all-rounder. No obvious weaknesses, and some very definite strengths. Itís not the kind of board that photofr is looking for, but it might compete with the 2.0 Nelo perhaps, especially when next year, inevitably, they bring out a 21.5Ē wide ďproĒ model.

Have you tried one yet? You donít need more volume than you need. The Naish Maliko 14x24 is 244L. The RS 14x24.5 is 288L. Thatís a very critical difference for someone your size.

Itís just so EASY. And it seems to be more stable the rougher conditions get. So you just tend to get on with your paddling without getting distracted. Light and easy to carry too (for a foam Cobra-built board), and fit and finish is excellent (innegra-reinforced rails will be useful for keen racers). I think most racers could go down a width size from their normal width, itís just so well-mannered.

Anyway, back to our regularly-scheduled programming... Iím not a fan of fat noses... the Blackfish disappointed me because I felt I was having to push a big balloon up front. In flat water, I found the Mistral Equinox faster than the Ace on which it is based, principally because of a slightly slimmed-down nose and a slightly wider tail. The Ace pitches quite a bit under power: Ryan James on one at full tilt used to bounce up and down like he was on a trampoline, and the result was like a wave generating machine. You could see all the wasted energy radiating out around him. So Iíd like to see what this Nelo 2.0 does with a powerful unit on board, going at full chat.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 17, 2018, 05:45:18 AM
LET'S CLEAR UP A FEW THINGS
Did you guys ever wonder why in the World I would make stuff up?
Let's be clear: I had no reason to tell you that the hull of the 2.0 was different, if in fact it wasn't different - but IT IS DIFFERENT.

Some of you went to the website, and noticed that only the deck of the 2.0 had undergone modifications. I kept telling you that the hull was also changed, because the board gained PRIMARY stability. So today, I grabbed the phone and spoke to the man in charge of the design of the Lightcorp.

He was very clear, and I learned a lot. Here's the summary:
- The nose of the 2.0 was made bigger (more volume) to prevent water from entering.
- The nose has a much sharper V shape to allow water to shed quickly from the bow.
- The standing area has been nicely flatten out - with only a slight inverted V shape from center to sides - to still allow quick drainage of water, but to ensure the rider has a more comfortable position.
- The standing area is also shorter to retain less water in open Ocean.
- Sidewalls are a bit taller to prevent water from coming in.

After discussing the above, and me providing my feedback, I proceeded to let him know that I REALLY felt as if the bow was modified. I kept going and told him a) the 2.0 now has more primary stability that couldn't be accounted for with the higher sidewalls and b) the roll was now minimised some. AND BOOM, he laughed a little, but then told me that he had slightly modified the hull as well. The board is still quite rounded, but LESS than the 1.0 version.

Anyway, do you guys see a pattern here?
The 2.0 version is truly made to suit a great many more people - anyone from about 68 kilos on up!
The 2.0 version carries changes that will be positive changes for anyone in that weight range (68 kg +).
The 2.0 version isn't necessarily geared towards the lighter paddler - like me.
The 1.0 version has couple of issues, but it's far better for lighter (super light paddlers).

So instead of guessing, I thought I would share the above information - which makes total sense considering that I was paddling faster with the 1.0 version. Also worth mentioning: they Lightcorp did some very extensive testing with several paddlers and have systematically come up with a 2.0 version that just and bluntly faster - although they didn't put a single paddler under 68 kilos on their new test.

Last but not least, the release of their All Water boards are going to make heads spin - due to arrive in about 2 weeks.

I hope this helps normal human beings.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2018, 05:47:27 AM

1) Have you tried one yet?

2) You donít need more volume than you need. The Naish Maliko 14x24 is 244L. The RS 14x24.5 is 288L. Thatís a very critical difference for someone your size.

3) I think most racers could go down a width size from their normal width, itís just so well-mannered.

4) Ryan James on one at full tilt used to bounce up and down like he was on a trampoline, and the result was like a wave generating machine.

1) I haven't. Demo's are hard to come by (although I'm at a local race this weekend which is close to a dealer). There is only one racer in the UK that is using one currently. He did offer me a quick go a couple of months back but i had to rush off sadly.

2) Personally, I really like the Allstar's 300+ litres. Its only for the fact the 2018 23.5 model is still over that amount that might allow me to drop down from my current 24.5. I'm pretty much scuppered on most other brands if I want a competitive (sub 24) width when you look at the volume. I don't see much point moving to another board unless I can get narrower than I am now but their 23 width is only 271 litres. That's too little for me.

3) So I've heard. I doubt its any more of a stability revelation than my current allstar is but I'm open minded to try.

4) I have intimate knowledge of that issue (affecting several Mistral models he used). Needless to say, without being too specific, that led to Mistral in the end creating their 'XL' line.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2018, 05:49:49 AM


Last but not least, the release of their All Water boards are going to make heads spin - due to arrive in about 2 weeks.


We'll see. I'm certainly waiting on that one (but its already a month overdue from when I was told).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 17, 2018, 05:55:01 AM
PROBLEM
Just a quick reminder: the problem that I am currently facing is ONLY due to the fact that I am just too light. Today, I saw 54 kilos on my digital scale - that's a far stretch from an average of 68 kilo person.

Nonetheless, I tried the Nelo 1.0, immediately fell in love with it and placed my order. It took a while, but by the time it arrived with my custom colors, Nelo shipped me the 2.0 version - a board that was updated for heavier paddlers. Clearly, I was furious - because I am just too lightweight.

Looking at options, they all require me to spend more money, to exercice patience, or to simply settle for a used product / refurbished product. In hopes that I will get really fat and one day be 65 kilos or so, I will be keeping this board.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 17, 2018, 06:01:09 AM
@ AREA10
Frankly, I think there are very boards on the market suited for lighter paddlers - though you guys are right: I should have tried other boards. However, today is a day where I can say: too little too late - even though they might be great boards.

SETTLING
I'll probably end up paddling SUP just a little less - and only when conditions are favorable - and getting more on my trusted surfski.

RACING 11-CITIES
I'll just paddle for fun - and will not be taking part in that race.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: PonoBill on May 17, 2018, 07:35:52 AM
I'd be glad to give you some of my 106 kilos.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2018, 07:46:21 AM
I think our wires must have got crossed here photofr. I donít think that the RS is the board for you. The narrowest one currently available will still be too wide for you, and itís an all-waters board not a flat water specific one. I know exactly what you are looking for - I tried a custom 21.5Ē wide board once and it was crazy fast in flat water. It was so fast that I had to go up a blade size with my paddle. But I couldnít stand on it for more than half an hour - too tippy for me. But youíd have got on great with it. 54kgs (you) vs 83kg (me) is a massive difference. I am literally half as much again as heavy as you. The boards that would be perfect for us will be completely different. As would the right board for PB be different from mine.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 17, 2018, 07:57:51 AM
it was crazy fast in flat water. It was so fast that I had to go up a blade size with my paddle.

Different topic but one I am very interested in (sorry).
The faster the board the bigger the bigger the paddle blade surface?

I have noticed for down-winding that it was easier to use a large blade when it was really blowing and only a few powerful stroke could get you in the bump but that a smaller blade maintaining many shorter strokes was easier in lighter conditions.

It also seem that on my flat water board the GPS seems to say that I was a little bit faster with my biggest blade (Mana 90) inasmuch as I am comparing many runs with different conditions rather than a back to back Bryce test.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2018, 09:31:14 AM
Yes, of course. Like gears on a bike: going downhill you choose a high gear, going uphill you choose a low one. Itís all about how easiest to overcome inertia/drag while not stressing the body too much. A fast board with low drag and low deceleration means less shock on the body at the catch, so you can go up a blade size to capitalise on it. This is partly why going narrower is so effective (if you can). Itís not just about the reduction of drag, but what that allows you to do.

If you have the kind of downwind conditions that mean you are always moving (rather than where I am, which tends to be stop-start against currents) then you can use an insanely big blade if you like. Hence that giant Big Mama Kalama 120sq ins that Dave Kalama used to use. Even he wouldnít use a blade that big in flat water.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 17, 2018, 09:46:51 AM
Photo it is unfortunate to have to settle for a Gen 2 board knowing full well that the Gen 1 is the better board for you.  More glide more speed more suited.  But understand you have your reasons.  But it seems if Nelo moved the fin box back a bit -> that might help with the tracking problem you are experiencing.

ukgm you mentioned before quite a significant gain in speed racing the 24.5 AS over the 26 Maliko.  Now you are thinking of dropping down to the 23.5 AS to gain more speed again.  But did you ever do your multi fin speed testing on the 24.5?

DW when the wind blows and your blade becomes a sail -> sometimes you have to hold on tight for fear of it flying away from you.  But then using a 116 does that sometimes.  Note that 116 was my first paddle that was purchased with my Dom.  :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 17, 2018, 10:13:28 AM
@AREA: the board you are referring to sounds like a fun fun fun board. If it were a hollow construction, I'd jump on that rather quickly. I am thinking long term here, so durability has got to be way up there on my list.

For this reason, and speaking of multi fins - I am thinking of finally looking a into ventral fins - and giving Allison a call to see what he would suggest. The 2.0 has MANY great attributes - and it's only downfall is staying on track in high wind. I am pretty sure I can make all its positive come to life and take care of its negative with a little bit of imagination.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 17, 2018, 10:16:27 AM
@EAGLE: Mostly, I couldn't see myself having spent so much effort and money to simply... take a brand new board, and trade it in for a used / demo / refurbished board. I mean: how the heck to I justify that to my wife?
("Hey honey... I bought this used banged up thing for the price of a brand spanking new one")
:) :)
Surely, you are laughing (or crying or both).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 17, 2018, 11:03:40 AM
Yeah taken one for one that makes little sense.  But given your situation -> the person who told you that the board would stay the same should help resolve this for you.  But if you have explored the options and have gotten nowhere then you are hooped.  It seemed according to others you should talk to Nelo or the distributor or the sales person directly and see if anything can be done.   But if you were offered a demo refurb -> the cost should be heavily discounted one would expect.

The speed numbers you posted of the Gen 1 would justify looking into this if we were in a similar situation.  Glide and speed are important for us as well.  The AS23 showed around a 3 to 5% speed advantage over the Dom over 6 miles.  But no doubt everyone is different and you seem content to live with the Gen 2.  Have fun with it nonetheless.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: SupSimcoe on May 17, 2018, 01:23:02 PM
I have to agree with Eagle. As I ready your posts your really trying to talk yourself into the board. One question you may ask is would you have purchased the v2 board if it was the one you demoed? If so then ask would you still take it if it was standard construction?

My guess is maybe and no are the answers. In that case I would go to your rep and say fix it with a new v1 board in your colour and you get to use a repaired v1 demo or the v2 you have to use until it comes and get all this isn writing with Nelo knowledge and support.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 17, 2018, 10:29:21 PM
@EAGLE:
I am clearly doomed either way.

Nelo is the builder for Lightcorp, and Nelo is allowed to resale. However, after speaking to Lightcorp, the best they can do is to provide me with a well refurbished board (almost like-new condition). I would also be responsible for shipping costs. To put it in prospective, I would end up spending more money for a used board with my least favorite colors. That's just not acceptable to me.

I might as well save 1/2 of my money, by selling the Nelo, getting my second choice board (a slightly used Sprint 2018 14x21.5, for under 2500 euros) and thus saving a bundle of money in the process. At least the colors would be closerto my liking

Keeping the 2.0 version seems more logical, especially when you consider:
- The 2.0 is faster in DW conditions and far easier on bumps than the Sprint 14x23
- The speed of the 2.0 is getting closer to the 1.0 version on dead flat water - which is why I wanted the Nelo board to begin with
- The 2.0 still bares my colors and the construction I requested.
- The 2.0 has minor drawbacks that I can deal with - it's more difficult upwind and sidewind, but it's still quite fast!!!

@SUPSIM:
I am no longer trying to "convince myself" - I am obviously sad about the situation, because let's face it: when's the last time you got on a board and thought: "This thing is just PERFECT FOR ME" - and yes, version 1.0 was just that for me - with my lightweight - but I will be damned if I am gonna spend the equivalent of 4000 euros on a used board baring my least favorite colors - even if the board works great.

You are right though: at 54 kilos, I wouldn't have placed my order for version 2.0 - but I am the minority in this deal. They could land me a V2 for 12 months, but ending up with a used V1 in the end is still not something I can accept - considering the amount of money we are talking about here. However, I am also trying to place myself in their shoes: If I go and try a 2017 Ford truck, place the order, and obtain a 2018 Ford truck on delivery day, what resource do I really have to complain?

ME: Dude, I liked the 2017 truck better.
REP: Dude, we are no longer making the 2017.

You see, doomed either way - but it's not like the 2018 is bad - it's just "so close" for my lightweight... so FREEKIN' CLOSE, that I am in fact frustrated. But enough about it.... I think I got it out of my system now. "Thanks for listening through these difficult moments"

Heavier paddlers: what can I say - enjoy yet another board built with you in mind!
(I hate you)
:)

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2018, 11:47:42 PM
it was crazy fast in flat water. It was so fast that I had to go up a blade size with my paddle.

Different topic but one I am very interested in (sorry).
The faster the board the bigger the bigger the paddle blade surface?


It depends on the speed you intend to typically move at, your physiological preferences and your general comfort. For what its worth, I race on a very small Black Project Blade (88sq) but I still have a lot of fun training using a variety of paddles including my absolutely huge Quickblade 'Big Mama Kalame' 130sq behemoth. I love that paddle but its not for the faint hearted.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: warmuth on May 18, 2018, 03:22:35 AM
@AREA: the board you are referring to sounds like a fun fun fun board. If it were a hollow construction, I'd jump on that rather quickly. I am thinking long term here, so durability has got to be way up there on my list.

For this reason, and speaking of multi fins - I am thinking of finally looking a into ventral fins - and giving Allison a call to see what he would suggest. The 2.0 has MANY great attributes - and it's only downfall is staying on track in high wind. I am pretty sure I can make all its positive come to life and take care of its negative with a little bit of imagination.

  Installing a fin box in a hollow board will be tricky.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on May 18, 2018, 03:49:52 AM
Haven't tried a ventral fin but imagine it wouldn't be practical for catching a boat wake. Which is always fun.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 18, 2018, 03:55:22 AM
@AREA: the board you are referring to sounds like a fun fun fun board. If it were a hollow construction, I'd jump on that rather quickly. I am thinking long term here, so durability has got to be way up there on my list.

For this reason, and speaking of multi fins - I am thinking of finally looking a into ventral fins - and giving Allison a call to see what he would suggest. The 2.0 has MANY great attributes - and it's only downfall is staying on track in high wind. I am pretty sure I can make all its positive come to life and take care of its negative with a little bit of imagination.

  Installing a fin box in a hollow board will be tricky.

You'd need an extremely competent boat builder or composite technician to do it. Let alone the fact it would invalidate any warranty the board has.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Pierre on May 18, 2018, 04:59:40 AM
Haven't tried a ventral fin but imagine it wouldn't be practical for catching a boat wake. Which is always fun.
Photofr if you need to contrrol your course DO NOT use a ventral fin, install a daggerboard case 2' ahead of your feet ' like on my 14' and my 18' you know those boards). When not needed, remove daggerboard. ventral fin is a bullshit while downwinding or wave/wake riding like Ygi posted.
I know such fitting is not that easy to build up especially on a hollow hull, but SO GREAT advantage on side wind course control and stability!!!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 18, 2018, 07:33:40 AM
it was crazy fast in flat water. It was so fast that I had to go up a blade size with my paddle.

Different topic but one I am very interested in (sorry).
The faster the board the bigger the bigger the paddle blade surface?


It depends on the speed you intend to typically move at, your physiological preferences and your general comfort. For what its worth, I race on a very small Black Project Blade (88sq) but I still have a lot of fun training using a variety of paddles including my absolutely huge Quickblade 'Big Mama Kalame' 130sq behemoth. I love that paddle but its not for the faint hearted.

I always intend to go fast but never do :-) Let's say that 8km/h on dead flat for anything over 250m is a big accomplishment on a 14'.

The Hydro 88 is 90.4 sqi so your small blade is the size of my biggest blade (Mana 90)
I have started using the Hydro 78 (76.9 sqi) with my 14' Vapor and the Hydro 83 (84.5 sqi) on my Ace-GT and for DW
I have to ask Chris the logic behind the numbering?

I found the Mana 90 too demanding for the stop and go DW we have here when the wind weaken but I can use it for regular paddling with my Ace-GT and Whiplash. Harder with teh Vapor which has noticeably less "glide" than these two.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 18, 2018, 08:37:18 AM
For those of you who want to see me making the most out of the board - it was actually another very fun day out paddling (always better than the office).

Boat wake
No bad at all on stability
So easy to get up to speed (definitely saving energy there)
Very predictable once it gets going - the bow doesn't catch at all
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-W46f7MZ/0/fcf23620/XL/6705-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-W46f7MZ/A)


The New Bow
Sure, I still wish I had 15 extra kilos on the board.
The bow works perfectly - it's rather quiet
Top of the bow sheds water like crazy fast
Ample overall bow volume
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-7qqjLG8/0/c130a917/XL/6636-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-7qqjLG8/A)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on May 18, 2018, 08:41:06 AM

The New Bow
Sure, I still wish I had 15 extra kilos on the board.
The bow works perfectly - it's rather quiet
Top of the bow sheds water like crazy fast
Ample overall bow volume

Do you know (did they tell you ?) what the volume of the 2.0 board is ?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 18, 2018, 08:44:13 AM
No, however, I was told that the 2.0 version was heavily tested by riders of all various weight. When asked if it were tested by super light paddlers, I was told YES. When finally asked what was the weight of the "super light paddler" I was told 68 kilos - and that he was very close to the limit for lightweight paddlers.

Keep that in mind: because the new board is really made for the average paddler - which is great news for you guys.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 18, 2018, 08:55:54 AM
No, however, I was told that the 2.0 version was heavily tested by riders of all various weight. When asked if it were tested by super light paddlers, I was told YES. When finally asked what was the weight of the "super light paddler" I was told 68 kilos - and that he was very close to the limit for lightweight paddlers.

Look at the bright side, you knew right from the start how much you were going to pay, at least there was one known parameter.
They could have sold you something where:
1) You did not know what the final product would be (check)
2) You did not know when you would get it exactly (check)
3) You did not know exactly how much it would cost you at the end (saved)

You must be very zen to still support them.
It is one thing to discuss with a shaper and entrust him to design/build the board you will receive, that is part of the contract.
I think it is another one to pre-order long in advance an "off-the-shelf" product and be served with a different product and be asked to be quiet and happy with it as your only option.
Not a very strong endorsement of their ethics toward customers unless it was spelled out to you at the time of purchase.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 18, 2018, 09:11:48 AM
It's tough, you know...
Imagine waiting nearly 3 months for a board, and when you get it: wait... it looks different. What do you do? You go paddle it first, and the second you do that, you can't exactly return it.

Zen?
I am just making the most of it and so I am just adapting to the board.

SUPPORT?
On the other hand, I don't see myself as supporting them - as much as I am sharing info and photos with a cool group of people. But after trying the 2.0 board, you'll have to agree too: the board is "quite the board".
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 18, 2018, 09:46:33 AM
It's tough, you know...
Imagine waiting nearly 3 months for a board, and when you get it: wait... it looks different. What do you do? You go paddle it first, and the second you do that, you can't exactly return it.

Zen?
I am just making the most of it and so I am just adapting to the board.

SUPPORT?
On the other hand, I don't see myself as supporting them - as much as I am sharing info and photos with a cool group of people. But after trying the 2.0 board, you'll have to agree too: the board is "quite the board".

I know. I was not reflecting on your actions or decisions but on their business practice if they never told you that you might be receiving the current model rather than the one you ordered.
You can still like the board but not necessarily the company - I used support in that sense.
If this is the way they operate, I would never buy from them.
That said I like to stick to used boards anyway :-)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2018, 10:10:38 AM
You ordered one board but were given another.

Now they wonít give you what you originally ordered.

They should at least offer to take it back (at their cost) and refund your money.

The 3-month wait is nothing. Iíve waited twice that for a production board.

That IS a big bow. From the side it looks like a big nose with nostrils.

Maybe you should call it ďhooterĒ. (Hang on, I think maybe that word means something different in the US than the UK :) )

Either way, IMO Lightcorp/Nelo have made a big boob here ;)

This thread is going to cost them far more in lost orders and goodwill than it would have taken for them to put this right.

And this discussion of ventral fins has highlighted a problem with hollow boards I hadnít considered. Where do you get your dings fixed? How much would it cost to fix them? Easy if you have some specialist nearby. But some people might live hundreds of miles from one.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 18, 2018, 10:23:05 AM
They cannot give me what I ordered, even if I waited another 3 months (which BTW I am not ready to do and will not do). The 1.0 is no longer being produced - as of right now.

Getting my money back is out of the question.

BOW
Huge, right?
Today, I set it on the rack just below my surfski and walked away for a minute. When I came back, I couldn't help but laugh: my surfski bow is smaller in volume than the Nelo 2.0 - and that's just funny (sad, for my weight - really).

It's a hoot - for sure. :)

HOLLOW BOARD REPAIRS
So super easy!
My first job ever was repairing damaged surfskis, then brand new surfskis that came out of the Mold with issues, and then into construction, before teaching surfski paddling. I can tell you with certainty, fixing a hollow ski / board is a walk in the park. Installing a ventral fin is do-able without a hatch, but I much prefer have a hatch for storage (and let's face it, installing a box with a hatch is just child's play). Remains to hear back from people who have or have had such a setup before making up my mind.

I can't tell you here why the company decided to release a version 2.0 - but the end result is rather simple:
2.0 will meet the needs of far more paddlers than 1.0
(at the cost of breaking my heart - and I take paddling at heart)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 18, 2018, 11:01:28 AM
Yeah sounds like you are hooped.  But am surprised that Nelo or the person responsible is firm on their position to not right this wrong in a more reasonable manner.

You did order a 1.0 and were given a 2.0.  That just seems plain and simple wrong.  Very surprised indeed you have been put into this unfortunate situation and have to live with a board you never ordered and is clearly not suited for your body weight.

We would send it back and get a re-furb at a big discount or get the 21.5 Sprint and not look back.  That board has amazing glide and does not feel corky for light weight riders.  Goes straight as an arrow as well.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on May 18, 2018, 12:00:08 PM
You can also see it differently.
I order a board without special version (because I don't know that there is already a new version) and get the version 1.0. Two days later, I read somewhere that there is now version 2.0. I would like to have version 2.0 then too.
However it is handled, the company will always go wrong. Depending on the nature of the customer.
Of course, it would have been correct to point out the version 2.0 in the order confirmation.

I would be happy about the new version. Unfortunately, they are not yet available as 24.5.
I'm curious about the Allwater. Looks interesting.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 18, 2018, 01:53:35 PM
The problem only came to the fore because he was given a demo 1.0 to try for a few days.  If he had not tried that demo and felt firsthand how that board responded with his body weight -> he would have never been the wiser.

For us if we ordered a 1.0 and got a corky 2.0 -> we would return it.  But as noted others sometimes want a more stable potentially slower board so the 2.0 would be better for them.  Nelo went where the demand was.  The 1.0 was too tippy and let in too much water.  So they made that 23" wide board easier to handle for more potential buyers.  Not many paddlers or racers are 54 or whatever kgs (118.8 lbs).  That is extremely light.  Even 60 kgs (132 lbs) is very light for any man.  The market is tiny for that sector of paddlers.

"You are right though: at 54 kilos, I wouldn't have placed my order for version 2.0"
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 18, 2018, 02:35:43 PM
I can personally attest this board was surprisingly stable for 21.5 and had exceptional glide.  I attribute that to the lowered standing area and underbody design.  Was only a bit more tippy than my AS23.  On flat would always go with the Sprint 21.5 hands down.  No question.  The AS23 feels like a slug comparatively.

Would seriously consider your used Sprint 21.5 option.   ;)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 18, 2018, 03:33:57 PM
You can also see it differently.
I order a board without special version (because I don't know that there is already a new version) and get the version 1.0. Two days later, I read somewhere that there is now version 2.0. I would like to have version 2.0 then too.
However it is handled, the company will always go wrong. Depending on the nature of the customer.
Of course, it would have been correct to point out the version 2.0 in the order confirmation.

I would be happy about the new version. Unfortunately, they are not yet available as 24.5.
I'm curious about the Allwater. Looks interesting.

Fair point but anybody ordering the available version at the time would be hard pressed to complain that they did receive the version they ordered.
It is indeed made more complicated because there is not something like a 2017 model versus a 2018 model which is fairly easy to identify and include in a pre-order.
They might likely complained that they were not told about the upcoming version nor given a choice or a discount on the past version and even that would be pushing it.

Maybe you want to swap boards with PhotoFR :-)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 18, 2018, 03:34:14 PM
You can also see it differently.
I order a board without special version (because I don't know that there is already a new version) and get the version 1.0. Two days later, I read somewhere that there is now version 2.0. I would like to have version 2.0 then too.
However it is handled, the company will always go wrong. Depending on the nature of the customer.
Of course, it would have been correct to point out the version 2.0 in the order confirmation.

I would be happy about the new version. Unfortunately, they are not yet available as 24.5.
I'm curious about the Allwater. Looks interesting.

YES - I think you nailed it; inevitably, it's all about communication (or the lack thereof). Pretty much anyone else would have been super happy to try the 1.0 and get the 2.0 - but as mentioned by someone else here: no one expected a feather lightweight paddler to take the 1.0 at heart.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2018, 05:02:48 PM
You weigh the same as my son did, at age 14, and with less than 10% body fat. In other words you are off the scale light for an adult male. So, the advice to you is going to be the same as someone who weighed 300lbs: go custom. At your weight even 21.5Ē wide is probably too wide. You look like a very fit guy indeed, and you are obviously an expert paddler. So for pure inland flat water I should think maybe even 20Ē wide might be feasible. A well-made cutting bow 14ft board with a 20Ē width is going to absolutely fly. Just get something like the Bark D2 and ask a good shaper to make you a version that is 6Ē narrower. It would FLY. Youíll be way faster than on the Nelo. And as a bonus, no-one will steal it, simply because youíll be the only person who can use it :) Even a 21.5Ē wide Sprint is still made for someone who weighs a lot more, so theyíll be volume there you donít need. Volume that is surplus to requirements just slows you down.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 18, 2018, 05:22:41 PM
Yeah custom is another way to go @ 118.8 lbs.  The Sprint 21.5 is designed for 45+ kgs paddlers.  But if Robert can race the 11 Cities on a 20 something custom and do ok -> then no doubt someone that light can go even narrower if they wanted.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2018, 07:46:35 PM
217L (Sprint 21.5 volume) nd 54kgs (photofrís weight) gives a weight/volume ratio of 4. So that would be the same as someone at 100kgs having a board that is 400L! You donít need that much.

My SIC RS 14x26 gives me a ratio of 3.7 and itís so stable itís like paddling a floating dock - Iím even thinking maybe I should have gone a board width down. To add more volume to get to 4.0 or over would be nuts.

I was paddling with a guy yesterday who had an old Starboard that was 217L. He was going just fine on it and he must have been 85-90kgs or so.

So, while Starboard may say that the 21.5Ē wide sprint can be used by 45kg people, that doesnít mean it is *optimal* for them. Any extra volume than you need is just dead weight and volume holding you back. It shouldnít be there!

For photfr to have the same volume/ratio as most average moderately-keen racers that are my size have in something like the SIC RS type design, his board would be around 183L only. So given that he wants a flat-water board not an all-waters one, he might be able to go even less than that. In this way, once you actually do the maths you can see exactly why photofr is complaining about all the production boards having too much volume for him: heís right. He can go smaller than any production 14 that is currently on the market (to my knowledge) - and probably SHOULD. Never mind trying to push that hulking great Nelo 2.0 through the water.


Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 18, 2018, 08:04:00 PM
Yeah no doubt every men's production board has way too much volume for 118.8 lbs.  The Dream Team lads must all be 65+ kgs.  This Sprint though has a max limit of 55 kgs and much less volume.  Something like that but in a 14 spear would be perfect for flat water.   ;)

https://www.supboardermag.com/equipment_guide/supkids-sprint-106-x-21-5-carbon-2017/
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2018, 08:13:13 PM
Yeah, something like that. But built to a decent standard of fit and finish. And with nice graphics and colours. :) :)

I wonder what the lowest volume 14ft race SUP on the market actually is?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 18, 2018, 08:17:51 PM
For me the 14 Sprint 21.5 was about perfect.  You can see the open tail was about an inch or so above water.  That board felt so right for flat water.  Slippery smooth but without the jiggle the Nelo has.  Come to think of it the Think XOR has a much more rolled bottom but at 28 wide also does not jiggle.  The extra width helps so you have plenty of time to adjust.

At 23 the Nelo was pretty narrow without any hard edges to slow the roll.  Flattening the bottom and adding volume will appeal to many more racers and paddlers.  My take was that 14 Sprint 21.5 was already pretty low volume for a men's board.  There may be even less volume production boards -> but then you get to the narrow end of the buyer spectrum again.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 19, 2018, 02:13:59 AM
Will you *please* stop going on about the Sprint? :)

Itís too bulky to be ideal for photofr.

He also knows about it so if heíd wanted one he could have bought one.

And anyway, who gets excited about a Sprint? It looks like it belongs in a skip the day after youíve bought it, and the Starboard construction is in my experience woeful - after a few years my Ace is so much tattier than the rest of my boards of a similar age (or older) itís crazy. Photofr is looking for something truly special, and looks clearly matter to him. I donít see anything being offered from the main brands that would suit him ó it will need to be under 200L really.

At 54kg if you paddle a board designed for someone who is only 65kgs you are still pushing around about about 20% more board than is ideal. Itís a huge difference if you want the ultimate in performance.

I paddle a SIC RS at 306L. If my board had 20% more volume than that it would be nearly 370L. 370L?? Who needs that much volume for a small-average sized guy? And so it is with photofr. Michael Booth paddles a 14x21.5Ē Sprint. He probably weighs 30% more (or more) than photofr. So the board that is right for him will not be right for photofr.

Heís going to have to go custom, I think. Joe Bark would make him an amazing custom. So would Mark Raaphorst. Iím guessing they probably wouldnít cost much more (or any more) than heís already paid for that Nelo. Both of those shapers will have made extremely fast flat water boards for females around the 54kg mark, Iíd imagine. A 21Ē wide version of the X14 pro lite would be incredible, and Iím guessing would be around the 198L mark, which would be plenty for 54kgs. Lina Augaitis became the fastest women paddler on earth at the 2014 Lost Mills contest in Germany on the 24Ē wide version, so itís scary to think how fast one that was 3Ē narrower would be. It is inherently a low-volume design with a small sharp bow, so none of the weathervaning that photofr has been complaining about with the Nelo. By contrast the Sprint is designed to carry plenty of volume so that heavier riders can use a narrower profile. In this way itís not really inherently a design aimed at very light people.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on May 19, 2018, 03:21:53 AM
Photof, are you keeping your 17' Sprint now you got this Nelo?

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on May 19, 2018, 03:51:08 AM
Maybe a custom board from 3bay is an option? Price for a custom is really ok.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 19, 2018, 05:34:24 AM
Maybe a custom board from 3bay is an option? Price for a custom is really ok.
Yeah thatís a good idea. The standard models are still perhaps a bit bulky for photofr but a 21Ē slimmed-down version would probably be a rocket. And itís only 8.9kg for the 14x23. So a version that might be as much as 40-50L smaller would be crazy light.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 19, 2018, 06:05:25 AM
"I might as well save 1/2 of my money, by selling the Nelo, getting my second choice board (a slightly used Sprint 2018 14x21.5, for under 2500 euros) and thus saving a bundle of money in the process. At least the colors would be closerto my liking"

Well the Sprint 21.5 was his Plan B.  But we have gone over this all before going full circle now.  Difference is he has tried the Nelo 1.0 and liked it.  But has been given a 2.0 board he would not choose to buy if he had the choice. 

A few of us suggested a super narrow Bark type custom spear to get him the glide he always wanted long ago -> but in the end he decided to order the Nelo 23.  Unfortunately now he is stuck with a 2.0 board he really does not want.

Clearly no 14 men's production board is designed for him.  Getting all blown about by a huge nose and not being able to paddle straight must be frustrating.  But at 118.8 lbs that is understandable.  He really is in a tough spot -> unless he drops the volume way down via a 14 custom say 19-20" wide.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 19, 2018, 06:30:49 AM
Yeah, the Sprint is not the solution, merely a stop-gap compromise.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 19, 2018, 06:49:19 AM
"I will now share couple of things I have noticed, and back it up with some photos. As you will notice, it's not all bad - in fact, most of the changes are positive ones, even though it affects me as a super lightweight paddler lacking muscle mass."

The lack of muscle mass may be a big part of the problem here.  He may not have a good power to weight ratio.  Because he is so light weight he gets blown about like a feather.  He needs plenty of muscle and power to keep his board torqued to go straight especially in any side wind.  That is why he is now looking for a ventral to help him out.  Fighting off a huge bow that sits high off the water must be a huge challenge for him.

He will no doubt get this sorted as he has tried many boards before like the AS25 Sprint23 Sprint UL Ace25 etc.  But none of those have been keepers for him.  At some point however he will find the right board for his requirements.  Whether it be a stop-gap used Sprint 21.5 or new custom build or whatever.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on May 19, 2018, 07:17:50 AM
Kings also made customs flat water boards and they usually look stunning.
I would cringe at having one shipped to Europe....but if you really want something PhotoFR seems like he could take some risks :-)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: JEG on May 19, 2018, 01:21:35 PM
I agree a custom UL board would be nice.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 19, 2018, 11:43:39 PM
My Nelo 2.0 is my 3rd favorite board EVER.

Top of the list:
UL 17'6x23" - pin tail, pin nose, super light, fast and very versatile.
I sold it because it was nearing the end of its life - after 6000+ kilometres in open water.

Nelo 1.0 - I thought it was it: a perfect contender for racing in the 14' category.
I was so eager to receiving it - even had vivid dreams about it while I waited and waited.
Its main attribute to me was speed, and amazing glide - coming from a highly pronounced rounded hull, but topping it all with low volume (great for me, because I am rather light). This was short-lived.

Nelo 2.0 14x23 - It has many great attributes - but not geared towards paddlers under 65 kilos. I still love its overall speed, love the way it glides, and its construction is actually stronger than version 1.0. At 54 kilos, I am however rather penalised. It's just enough to dissuade me from racing the 11-City Race (long distance).

--------------------

My next board will be a custom board - but it's going to break the bank (it's going to hurt), however, if it turns out the way I want, it will be the funnest and most versatile board ever to really put in some miles - and glide like mad. Suffice to say that it will be a UL, designed for my weight, and will most likely not be allowed on races. It will break the bank - for sure.

Life as a lightweight paddler has been is still is a compromise. As far as compromise go, the Nelo 2.0 is still a very good contender - and judging from paddling over 200 km on the 2.0 so far, I can tell you that thing is GOING TO LAST.

CHANGES
The easiest changes I can make right now (and the cheapest) is going to be me. Building more muscles, working on technique... these help more than one can imagine. It's not like I was taking a 14x25 Allstar and trying to make it suit my feather-weight. In fact, the Nelo 2.0 is the farthest board from an AS 14x25.

NEW BOARD?
Buying a new stock board right now, or swapping for a used one isn't realistic as it will still be a compromise. Getting a custom made board is the answer, but not at all feasible at the moment.

GOOD NEWS
The good news for me is that the 2.0 is still a fantastic board. It's still better (for me) than at least a dozen boards I can name, right off the rack - but that's personal (because of what I want out of a board).

For those of you who are 65+ kilos, and have pretty good balance, the 2.0 board will most likely exceed your expectation. Don't think for a second that this board is for "flat water only" - because judging from its handling, that's not its sole purpose in life. For the heavier paddler, the 2.0 brings you net advantages over the 1.0 (the exact changes that are hurting me as a lightweight paddler)
- more volume (less water in your cockpit and more versatile)
- more stability (hull is still round, but slightly less than the 1.0)

IMPORTANT NOTE
I am sitting here telling you how great the 1.0 board was, but I gotta let it go!
The 1.0 version was almost a dream come true - for my lightweight. But let's be clear: the 1.0 version is not exactly the most compatible board for 99.5% of the people on Earth. In that respect, the 2.0 is far more suited for the mass (no punt intended).

:)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on May 20, 2018, 03:44:28 AM
Ok well this might be the first post on the Zone you have ever made, photofr, where everyone agrees with you :)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on May 20, 2018, 09:32:31 AM
CHANGES
The easiest changes I can make right now (and the cheapest) is going to be me. Building more muscles, working on technique... these help more than one can imagine.
Yep add muscle mass and improve technique.  That should help resolve your problems controlling that board.  But would concentrate on technique first as building muscle mass is doable but pretty hard after age 50 due to sarcopenia and somatopause.

Technique improvements should yield much faster results in the short term.  But mid and long term -> building strength and power are nonetheless super important.  ;)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on May 21, 2018, 01:24:36 AM
Ok well this might be the first post on the Zone you have ever made, photofr, where everyone agrees with you :)

This is some funny "stuff".
Waking up to an agreement just brightens my day :) :) :) :)

In the end, it is what it is: we share facts, but we also share feeling. Think about how boring it would be if you agreed with me all the time?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on June 04, 2018, 10:19:13 PM
I paddle a SIC RS at 306L.

I would like to buy a board for all conditions that are to heavy for me with the lightcorp. So my plan is, to sell my Bullet V1 and my Allstar 14x24.5 and buy the SIC RS 14x26. Would you recommend this board and the width for a 203 lbs and 6.4 ft paddler?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on June 05, 2018, 01:29:42 AM
I paddle a SIC RS at 306L.

I would like to buy a board for all conditions that are to heavy for me with the lightcorp. So my plan is, to sell my Bullet V1 and my Allstar 14x24.5 and buy the SIC RS 14x26. Would you recommend this board and the width for a 203 lbs and 6.4 ft paddler?
Well, now I see that in many places the volume of the 14x26 RS is quoted as 315L.

Anyway, I think that anyone would hesitate to recommend a board for anyone else. ďRecommendĒ is a strong word, and there are so many variables involved in determining what board suits another person.

But having said that, a friend who must be around your weight, or probably even a little heavier, recently tried my 14x26 RS and it trimmed fine for him when he stood with his feet either side of the handle. For some reason people often tend to naturally place their feet slightly behind the handle when they get on the RS. But standing where Mark R expected you to stand means you get the most out of it, unless you are in special conditions that really warrant a different approach.

Your height (as opposed to width) only really matters in relation to stability and width rather than volume, and I assume from the list of boards you own that your balance is good. The 14x26 is very easy for a race design in chop.

Itís a shame that SIC donít give paddled weight recommendations for their boards. But Naish gives 210 lbs as the upper weight limit for the 14x26 Maliko at 264L, and the RS is more noticeably stable than that in tricky side-chop conditions, and would I have thought handle riders that are heavier than the Maliko.

So, the obvious thing to say - of course - is demo if at all possible. And the RS is a lot more technical to ride in good size downwind than the Bullet V1 (which I also own). If itís big downwind you do often then you might want to hold onto the Bullet, which is a great board for bumps much over knee-high. The RS is freakishly fast in downbreeze conditions with little ripples (up to about 1 ft) but you need good footwork to get the best out of it in proper full-on downwind, and that can get a bit tiring after a while. But as I say, in small downwind (and indeed upwind against ripples) its capacity to go fast is extraordinary. I guess that Mark intends the Bayonet to be for medium size downwind, and the Bullet for big stuff (that probably the majority of paddlers these days will never experience).

So when you describe the conditions you want it for as ďtoo heavy for the lightcorpĒ, Iím not sure exactly how heavy you mean. If you mean Maliko or M2O heavy then the RS is not really for that. But if you mean conditions e.g. up to and including what weíve seen on the Euro Tour the last couple of weekends (check the videos on SUP Racer) then the RS should do well.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on June 05, 2018, 07:28:31 AM
hello Area10, thanks a lot for your detailed statement. this helps me and confirms my assumption.
Unfortunately I do not have the possibility for a big downwinder and it is rather downbreezer on lakes and sometimes river. Or a lot of boat wakes on our river.
So your example with the eurotour fits perfect.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on June 05, 2018, 08:56:05 AM
hello Area10, thanks a lot for your detailed statement. this helps me and confirms my assumption.
Unfortunately I do not have the possibility for a big downwinder and it is rather downbreezer on lakes and sometimes river. Or a lot of boat wakes on our river.
So your example with the eurotour fits perfect.
Well, thatís that decided then. For downbreezers on lakes and rivers with up to one foot bumps the RS goes like absolute sh1t off a shovel. It seems to milk every tiny little ripple. Itís noticeably faster than e.g. the Maliko in those conditions. And itís brilliant at handling boat wakes.

Btw itís surprising how handy the deck bungees have turned out to be, too. Very useful for day-to-day training, and I now even sometimes find myself taking it out instead of my other boards because it has them. Itís unusual to find deck rigging on a race board. But it was actually genius of Mark Raaphorst to include them, and itís the sort of touch that youíd only insist on if you really paddle your own designs a lot. Thereís also a nice flat bit on top of the front deck that makes mounting a GPS like the Velocitek Makai easy. Heís thought of everything.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on June 05, 2018, 11:38:52 AM
Perfect. So I will sell my Boards  ;D
Thanks again.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: fpjeepy05 on June 08, 2018, 12:24:05 PM
No one asked for it, but I'll add my 2 cents. I like the Nelo, but it's a flatwater board and I'm not gonna buy a flatwater board over 21.5"
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on June 08, 2018, 12:48:49 PM
I agree with you - makes NO SENSE for flat water.
The Nelo board isn't flat water only though...so food for thoughts.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on June 08, 2018, 03:33:15 PM
Yeah for flat water 23 is pretty wide.  21.5 or less makes more sense based on what top racers are on.  For me as well 23 feel draggy vs a 21.5 spear.

RS used a 21 custom for 11 Cities.  So for really lightweight paddlers a 20 should be fine.  23s just have so much more form drag vs 21.5 and less spears.

"The 14' x 21" Blue Planet dugout race board"

https://blueplanetsurf.com/news/sup-11-city-tour-and-paddle-expo-euro-trip-report/

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: fpjeepy05 on July 17, 2018, 01:00:02 PM
Yeah for flat water 23 is pretty wide.  21.5 or less makes more sense based on what top racers are on.  For me as well 23 feel draggy vs a 21.5 spear.

RS used a 21 custom for 11 Cities.  So for really lightweight paddlers a 20 should be fine.  23s just have so much more form drag vs 21.5 and less spears.

"The 14' x 21" Blue Planet dugout race board"

https://blueplanetsurf.com/news/sup-11-city-tour-and-paddle-expo-euro-trip-report/

Agreed
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 17, 2018, 02:36:51 PM
Yeah for flat water 23 is pretty wide.  21.5 or less makes more sense based on what top racers are on.  For me as well 23 feel draggy vs a 21.5 spear.

RS used a 21 custom for 11 Cities.  So for really lightweight paddlers a 20 should be fine.  23s just have so much more form drag vs 21.5 and less spears.

"The 14' x 21" Blue Planet dugout race board"

https://blueplanetsurf.com/news/sup-11-city-tour-and-paddle-expo-euro-trip-report/

That BP 21" racer has been available for a while.
https://www.blueplanetsup.eu/products/d/race_touring/dug_out_series
I would love to try it out but I cannot seem to find any local event where they have a stand (Southern Germany). :(
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on July 17, 2018, 02:58:56 PM
You can always send him a PM and see what he can arrange for you.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on July 18, 2018, 03:54:49 AM
Yeah for flat water 23 is pretty wide.  21.5 or less makes more sense based on what top racers are on.  For me as well 23 feel draggy vs a 21.5 spear.


The fact we're saying that now is amazing. How the hell did we end up here so fast.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on July 18, 2018, 04:49:37 AM
Yeah for flat water 23 is pretty wide.  21.5 or less makes more sense based on what top racers are on.  For me as well 23 feel draggy vs a 21.5 spear.


The fact we're saying that now is amazing. How the hell did we end up here so fast.
It hasnít been particularly fast, and has been pretty steady. 10 years ago the height of SUP race technology was a Starboard K15, which was 30Ē wide. Other (14ft) boards were in the 27.5-30Ē range. So I think weíve just been steadily dropping at a rate of around 0.75Ē year on year for the last 10 years, thatís all.

Itís not going to stop at 21Ē, for sure. By my reckoning we will be Sub-20 around the 2021 season, and I doubt if we will stop getting narrower until either regulation cones in, and/orthe top Male paddlers are all under 20 and no more than 140lbs..
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 18, 2018, 08:04:07 AM
You can always send him a PM and see what he can arrange for you.
Good idea. Thanks!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on July 18, 2018, 09:48:22 AM
Yeah for flat water 23 is pretty wide.  21.5 or less makes more sense based on what top racers are on.  For me as well 23 feel draggy vs a 21.5 spear.
The fact we're saying that now is amazing. How the hell did we end up here so fast.

Haha!  Was thinking about you yesterday as I took out a Sunova 25 Flatwater.  Might be an option for you to consider.  Has a sunken deck and felt faster than an AS24.5 with a lot less splash.  Weighed less in balsa than my CS AS23 -> and very fast and stable.

Was told Norm uses a 23.5 and Lina a 22.  The shape is very slippery with rounded edges ending in a panel vee.  Was able to put the hammer down and the board took off like a shot.  Has more more initial tip but secondary stability was very good.  So should be a good board for racing or fitness.  Glide felt really good for a 25.  Probs best of any 25 or wider I have tried and maybe as good as my AS.  Nose felt it did not push a lot of water -> which is so much better than the splashy boof designs.

A good 2 board quiver would be a Flatwater and a Bullet 14V2 for many in these parts.  Most all FW AW and DW conditions would be covered.  The board tested was 2018 but was told the design is not expected to change much for 2019.  Would have been nice to try the 23.5 or 22 -> but the stars did not align.  The 22 might even be a touch less stable than the 21.5 Sprint.  Expect Lina to be on the elite podium some time soon.  Norm has already won some local races on his.

The 82 sq in Sunova carbon paddle felt very good as well. Shaft was pretty stiff pumping out quite a bit of clean power with not much slip.

https://sunovasurfboards.com/en/sup/flatwater-touring-race/flatwater-faast-pro

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on July 18, 2018, 12:17:00 PM
"How the hell did we end up here so fast."

Once boards progressed from the 27.5 Dom down to 25 then 23 -> confidence and skill levels increased with use in all conditions.  Using myself as an example the 25 Sprint and 25 Race were boards I considered buying years ago.  They were nice but just did not suit my purposes at the time. 

Then my AS23 came along -> and that board was as or more stable than the old 25 Sprint.  So had no real purpose looking at 25+ wide boards.  But can say the custom 25 Eradicator that Norm used was a fantastic fast stable ride.  Then tried the 21.5 Sprint and was surprised how stable that board was.  So it did take some time to get there.  The key for me was actually getting past the width number part of the equation and just powering up and having fun on the board.  The 21.5 Sprint was a revelation in glide and efficiency.

But for the top elite the 21.5 Sprint etc must be child's play -> as demonstrated long ago by Connor and Bart paddling backwards in big Maliko wind and swells on very old SB designs.  So for me was not that surprising at all the top elite are racing on 21.5 spears and killing it like Boothy in pretty nasty conditions.

Edit:  When you actually see how good the top men and women are -> it is very easy to appreciate how crappy of a paddler you are in comparison.  And how much your skill and power and balance levels really suck.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on July 18, 2018, 08:05:24 PM
I think itís our expectations that are odd. If any of us stepped onto a tennis court with Roger Federer, how would we look? So... why on earth would any one of us expect to paddle alongside Michael Booth and not look pretty much completely like a beginner?

Maybe itís just because SUP is still a young sport that many of us can remember when we were one of the few doing it, and so were relatively pretty good at it. But the up and coming new breed of racers were not even in their teens then, so will have spent at least some of those early years SUPing, when you learn so fast, and your body adapts so quickly. By contrast, most of us were already adults before SUP appeared. So thereís no chance for us to stay in touch with the kids who have grown up with SUP. Move over, grandad, youíve had your time.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on July 18, 2018, 08:12:32 PM
I was in a race last Saturday (that ended up been a 20km flat water slog instead of a downwinder as expected) and out of curiosity I plotted the age groups from the result:
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on July 19, 2018, 06:04:51 AM
I was in a race last Saturday (that ended up been a 20km flat water slog instead of a downwinder as expected) and out of curiosity I plotted the age groups from the result:
The old geezers are doing well. But stick them all on 21Ē wide boards and see what the times will be ;)

The youngsters havenít really yet had a chance to really gap the oldies because up until about this year the boards available have all been too wide to be optimal for the most gifted kids. The 2019 season will be when we really see the elite teenagers starting to leave the elite oldsters (Danny, Travis, Sonni, Candice  etc) behind, and the gap will be even bigger amongst the weekend warriors.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: JEG on July 19, 2018, 06:04:34 PM
those are fast times for 20km paddle.  8)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on July 19, 2018, 06:36:24 PM
those are fast times for 20km paddle.  8)

Tide was flowing :-)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on July 28, 2018, 11:59:40 PM
Perfect. So I will sell my Boards  ;D
Thanks again.

For two weeks I have the RS 14x26 and since then paddled 150 km with it. I'm very satisfied. Stable as a tanker and under normal conditions almost as fast as the Nelo. Unbelievable actually.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on July 29, 2018, 09:49:57 AM
Perfect. So I will sell my Boards  ;D
Thanks again.

For two weeks I have the RS 14x26 and since then paddled 150 km with it. I'm very satisfied. Stable as a tanker and under normal conditions almost as fast as the Nelo. Unbelievable actually.

For such different designs, it doesn't inspire confidence with the Nelo.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on July 29, 2018, 07:40:40 PM
Perfect. So I will sell my Boards  ;D
Thanks again.

For two weeks I have the RS 14x26 and since then paddled 150 km with it. I'm very satisfied. Stable as a tanker and under normal conditions almost as fast as the Nelo. Unbelievable actually.
Iím glad itís worked out for you. But I was pretty confident that it would!

Iím tempted now to buy another RS, but narrower, for flatter conditions. Extravagent, I know. But I like paddling them.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on July 29, 2018, 09:24:24 PM
I already had that idea  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on July 29, 2018, 11:30:47 PM
Perfect. So I will sell my Boards  ;D
Thanks again.

For two weeks I have the RS 14x26 and since then paddled 150 km with it. I'm very satisfied. Stable as a tanker and under normal conditions almost as fast as the Nelo. Unbelievable actually.
Iím glad itís worked out for you. But I was pretty confident that it would!

Iím tempted now to buy another RS, but narrower, for flatter conditions. Extravagent, I know. But I like paddling them.

How low can you go ?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 30, 2018, 06:59:22 AM
Perfect. So I will sell my Boards  ;D
Thanks again.

For two weeks I have the RS 14x26 and since then paddled 150 km with it. I'm very satisfied. Stable as a tanker and under normal conditions almost as fast as the Nelo. Unbelievable actually.
Iím glad itís worked out for you. But I was pretty confident that it would!

Iím tempted now to buy another RS, but narrower, for flatter conditions. Extravagent, I know. But I like paddling them.
Please try the 23" wide version and let us know your thoughts. :)
Unfortunately I won't be able to paddle with one till maybe next week (retailer's currently on vacation).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on July 30, 2018, 09:39:17 AM
Perfect. So I will sell my Boards  ;D
Thanks again.

For two weeks I have the RS 14x26 and since then paddled 150 km with it. I'm very satisfied. Stable as a tanker and under normal conditions almost as fast as the Nelo. Unbelievable actually.
Iím glad itís worked out for you. But I was pretty confident that it would!

Iím tempted now to buy another RS, but narrower, for flatter conditions. Extravagent, I know. But I like paddling them.
Please try the 23" wide version and let us know your thoughts. :)
Unfortunately I won't be able to paddle with one till maybe next week (retailer's currently on vacation).
Yes, thatís the dilemma. The 24Ē board is actually 24.4Ē wide, and so I donít know if going down only 1.6Ē is enough to warrant another purchase. But Iíve had a 23Ē wide board before, and I was pretty slow on it. So I need to demo one, ideally in the conditions I use it, either a 24.4 or a 23. My head is telling me that 24.4Ē is probably perfect for me, however. That extra 0.4Ē on the 24 might actually be just right for me. Iíll try to find a demo, or pay to borrow someoneís.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 30, 2018, 12:07:32 PM
Yes, thatís the dilemma. The 24Ē board is actually 24.4Ē wide, and so I donít know if going down only 1.6Ē is enough to warrant another purchase. But Iíve had a 23Ē wide board before, and I was pretty slow on it. So I need to demo one, ideally in the conditions I use it, either a 24.4 or a 23. My head is telling me that 24.4Ē is probably perfect for me, however. That extra 0.4Ē on the 24 might actually be just right for me. Iíll try to find a demo, or pay to borrow someoneís.
If you are talking about the 2018 models, I believe it's 24.5" wide.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on July 30, 2018, 12:29:16 PM
Yes, thatís the dilemma. The 24Ē board is actually 24.4Ē wide, and so I donít know if going down only 1.6Ē is enough to warrant another purchase. But Iíve had a 23Ē wide board before, and I was pretty slow on it. So I need to demo one, ideally in the conditions I use it, either a 24.4 or a 23. My head is telling me that 24.4Ē is probably perfect for me, however. That extra 0.4Ē on the 24 might actually be just right for me. Iíll try to find a demo, or pay to borrow someoneís.
If you are talking about the 2018 models, I believe it's 24.5" wide.
SIC website says 24.4Ē, 62.2cm.

62.2cm is actually 24.488Ē. So who knows? Itís somewhere around 24.4-24.5ish.

https://sicmaui.com/rs-14-0-scc/

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
Yes, thatís the dilemma. The 24Ē board is actually 24.4Ē wide, and so I donít know if going down only 1.6Ē is enough to warrant another purchase. But Iíve had a 23Ē wide board before, and I was pretty slow on it. So I need to demo one, ideally in the conditions I use it, either a 24.4 or a 23. My head is telling me that 24.4Ē is probably perfect for me, however. That extra 0.4Ē on the 24 might actually be just right for me. Iíll try to find a demo, or pay to borrow someoneís.
If you are talking about the 2018 models, I believe it's 24.5" wide.
SIC website says 24.4Ē, 62.2cm.

62.2cm is actually 24.488Ē. So who knows? Itís somewhere around 24.4-24.5ish.

https://sicmaui.com/rs-14-0-scc/
I wonder whether that site is outdated. For one, it doesn't contain the 28" wide model.
https://www.storesicmaui.com/boards/displacement-hull.html
Note the difference in both volume and weight.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on July 30, 2018, 03:16:28 PM
Crikey - the 14x28 RS is gonna be a seriously stable board! 330L too. That should please some big guys. Would be great for very long trips I guess.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 31, 2018, 01:14:32 AM
Crikey - the 14x28 RS is gonna be a seriously stable board! 330L too. That should please some big guys. Would be great for very long trips I guess.
Oh, I actually meant that the 24.4" and 24.5" wide models have different specifications.
That's what made me wonder whether one of them is obsolete.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on July 31, 2018, 01:26:57 AM
Crikey - the 14x28 RS is gonna be a seriously stable board! 330L too. That should please some big guys. Would be great for very long trips I guess.
Oh, I actually meant that the 24.4" and 24.5" wide models have different specifications.
  • 24.4": 297 L, 25.8 lbs
  • 24.5": 288 L, 24.7 lbs
That's what made me wonder whether one of them is obsolete.

The link from Area10 seems to be the right one. Because there are 315l specified for the RS14x26 and this value is also printed on my board.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on July 31, 2018, 02:16:09 AM
Crikey - the 14x28 RS is gonna be a seriously stable board! 330L too. That should please some big guys. Would be great for very long trips I guess.

It would have to because on a boat that size, you'll be stuck out on it all damn day.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on July 31, 2018, 10:29:44 AM
Crikey - the 14x28 RS is gonna be a seriously stable board! 330L too. That should please some big guys. Would be great for very long trips I guess.

It would have to because on a boat that size, you'll be stuck out on it all damn day.
Nah, many people would be faster on the 28 than the 24.

I tried the 14x28 Naish Maliko and really liked it for general fun ocean paddling. It reminded me of how much fun it can be to paddle a really stable board.

I think itís great that these brands are bringing out 28Ē wide versions of their top raceboards for people who want a race/tourer rather than either a tippy dedicated racer or a totally barge-like touring board.

After the M2O this year, with Kai coming home nearly 1.5 hrs ahead of the winning UL SUP, I reckon many of the people who are currently on very narrow boards will next year be on foils, and then these super-narrow 14 boards might almost disappear. We are already seeing a resurgence of the UL class, which is where the rest of the ďnarrow 14sĒ riders (who donít get foils) will go...
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 31, 2018, 11:25:13 AM
Crikey - the 14x28 RS is gonna be a seriously stable board! 330L too. That should please some big guys. Would be great for very long trips I guess.
Oh, I actually meant that the 24.4" and 24.5" wide models have different specifications.
  • 24.4": 297 L, 25.8 lbs
  • 24.5": 288 L, 24.7 lbs
That's what made me wonder whether one of them is obsolete.

The link from Area10 seems to be the right one. Because there are 315l specified for the RS14x26 and this value is also printed on my board.
I see. That's really weird though...
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: JEG on July 31, 2018, 03:49:56 PM
I think the future discipline will be UL, foil & 14.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on August 01, 2018, 02:04:29 AM
I think the future discipline will be UL, foil & 14.

I don't think so as far as general racing goes. Foil is limited to decent downwind or swell based races for their full length. That's going to be a small pool and those races don't get huge numbers (and won't see many speculators buying foils for maybe one or two races a year). The UL revolution isn't coming (at least not in Europe) and its in a similar situation to foils (specialised and low number of races allowing it).

That just leaves 14's. I would like to see this length challenged but I think it's now so ingrained, it's unlikely. Whilst other sports such as cycling and sailing have seen equipment evolution, such changes weren't often legislated against from the outset. In SUP's case, it would need a huge push from manufacturers to warrant it. In my view, I'd personally like to see the UL become mainstream for all water states to kickstart some innovation but I think that ship has literally sailed.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on August 01, 2018, 02:11:47 AM
Nah, many people would be faster on the 28 than the 24.

1) I tried the 14x28 Naish Maliko and really liked it for general fun ocean paddling. It reminded me of how much fun it can be to paddle a really stable board.

2) After the M2O this year, with Kai coming home nearly 1.5 hrs ahead of the winning UL SUP, I reckon many of the people who are currently on very narrow boards will next year be on foils, and then these super-narrow 14 boards might almost disappear.

3) We are already seeing a resurgence of the UL class, which is where the rest of the ďnarrow 14sĒ riders (who donít get foils) will go...

1) You're absolutely right.

2) I doubt it. The number of races is still too small, too expensive for an international market to get to and its too specialised a piece of equipment to train regularly with. It's always going to be cool but never going to be mass participation. The narrow raceboards will become more widely used in the majority of SUP races I feel, not less.

3) I think resurgence is stretching it. In the few international races there might be a few more but that's not where the racing footfall is. Until race organisers open races up to unlimiteds again (most just don't let them now), its going to [sadly] stay as a dinosaur in anything other than M20 and similar races.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on August 06, 2018, 11:11:18 PM
Area10, one question... where do you place your feet on the RS? Between the drainage holes or further back? I am not sure which position is best for speed.

Thanks :-)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on August 08, 2018, 09:04:28 PM
I'm specifically referring to downwind conditions, it really sucked for me with the new board and I wasn't having fun, I kept missing bumps and
connections and I felt my timing is really screwed up, so much that I could no longer blame my mediocre technic and conditioning.
This is how the GTX came about. I'll let the results speak:
Here is a video of the day with the GTX.
https://youtu.be/boN5djsEzkY

I know that Area10 will shake his head :-) in  a friendly fashion but I received from Larry a new fin the GTS which is a smaller version of the GTX that Burchas uses for its 16 footer.
I have used it a few times on the Vapor and I can say that it works perfectly. We had only smaller conditions i.e. under 20 knots and bumps less than hip high but the GTS has worked really good. I was on the tail for some of the longest glide/connections ever for these type of conditions and the board was really stable and easy to control and easy to turn into more bumps.
I know it might feel counter-intuitive because of teh large base but all I can say is that the proof is the pudding in my specific case.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on August 08, 2018, 09:27:59 PM
Luc - Large base fins can give more drive in light conditions so are not necessarily a bad choice, IMO. In some conditions they can also help stabilise an unruly tail too - although a 2+1 setup (no toe, no cant) is a better solution for that.

mr_proper: where to stand on the RS depends on the conditions. In flat water I stand either side of the handle (which feels too far forward but is fastest, at least for me). In mild bumps I move my feet back a little, eg. so my toes are level with the back of the handle. In bigger stuff it gets complicated... in general I find that speed on the RS is more about what the tail is doing rather than the nose: IMO itís usually better to plough the nose than drag the tail (assuming one or the other has to happen).

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on August 08, 2018, 10:22:25 PM
Luc - Large base fins can give more drive in light conditions so are not necessarily a bad choice, IMO. In some conditions they can also help stabilise an unruly tail too

That is what I am rediscovering. SUP seems often non-intuitive. A small fin narrowish base will feel greet on side confused chop but a wider base will get where you need to downwind on the conditions we described. Get the balance wrong and a stalled board will get pushed around worst than anything.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: GlideMarko on August 09, 2018, 12:41:06 AM
New model from Nelo: GT
https://vimeo.com/283882293
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on August 09, 2018, 12:58:31 AM
New model from Nelo: GT
https://vimeo.com/283882293

Interesting. This was the design they told me as coming out last spring. Not a lot of mention on any stability shaping features so possibly a handful by the looks of things. You can also see in the video how their flatwater board handles chop and wake from other boards.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on August 09, 2018, 01:09:45 AM
... You can also see in the video how their flatwater board handles chop and wake from other boards.

Saw that.

They guy on the green Lightcorp race really struggles and then gets bogged down once the wake from the Orange GT hits him. Same for the guy on the Pink Lightcorp race.

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on August 09, 2018, 01:42:30 AM
... You can also see in the video how their flatwater board handles chop and wake from other boards.

Saw that.

They guy on the green Lightcorp race really struggles and then gets bogged down once the wake from the Orange GT hits him. Same for the guy on the Pink Lightcorp race.

.........and that's their elite team paddling there. The board looks good though. The low weight won't be a bad thing but I'm curious to see if its a truly competitive shape or not.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Lake Paddler on August 09, 2018, 01:59:14 AM
If I'm not mistaken, they put their fastest team riders Normen Weber and Peter Weidert on two GT boards...just to convey the idea that GT is indeed faster than their previous dugout model?
Somehow I see no mention of "all-water" on their website.
https://www.light-sup.com/light--nelo-the-gt.html
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on August 09, 2018, 04:42:14 AM
Good thing to learn that the GT's nose is fastly moving.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on August 09, 2018, 04:57:51 AM
Good thing to learn that the GT's nose is fastly moving.

...... and that 'triple' is so important, they keep throwing an extra p in there.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on August 09, 2018, 04:58:29 AM
If I'm not mistaken, they put their fastest team riders Normen Weber and Peter Weidert on two GT boards...just to convey the idea that GT is indeed faster than their previous dugout model?
Somehow I see no mention of "all-water" on their website.
https://www.light-sup.com/light--nelo-the-gt.html

Yes, I thought the lack of mention of its intended use was an oversight or merely odd.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on August 09, 2018, 07:15:11 AM
... You can also see in the video how their flatwater board handles chop and wake from other boards.

Saw that.

They guy on the green Lightcorp race really struggles and then gets bogged down once the wake from the Orange GT hits him. Same for the guy on the Pink Lightcorp race.

I think that we all focused on the same thing :-)
The near miss and bracing when hit by the wake of the first board and the good leg workout during most of the paddling.
Definitely an acquired taste not for everybody.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on August 09, 2018, 10:49:32 AM
Definitely an acquired taste not for everybody.

And that's under very tamed conditions. Imagine a real race start with 300 more paddlers
around and the taste you'll have to acquire is the taste of the water around you because
that's where you'll spend most of your time until the stampede is over ;D
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on August 09, 2018, 02:27:07 PM
mr_proper: where to stand on the RS depends on the conditions. In flat water I stand either side of the handle (which feels too far forward but is fastest, at least for me). In mild bumps I move my feet back a little, eg. so my toes are level with the back of the handle. In bigger stuff it gets complicated... in general I find that speed on the RS is more about what the tail is doing rather than the nose: IMO itís usually better to plough the nose than drag the tail (assuming one or the other has to happen).

Thanks a lot.
I think it also depends a bit on the weight and size of the paddler.
It seems that the best position for me is when the front third of my foot is at the level of the rear drainage hole. Maybe an inch further, if it is really flat.
But I will watch and report it.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: JEG on August 09, 2018, 03:19:14 PM
fast or unstable
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Eagle on August 09, 2018, 03:49:35 PM
...Somehow I see no mention of "all-water" on their website.
https://www.light-sup.com/light--nelo-the-gt.html
Yes, I thought the lack of mention of its intended use was an oversight or merely odd.
Apparently the flat deck GT is an allwater flatwater racing board.  But that vid actually shows how unstable the Signature 2.0 is just from a single board ahead.  Will be interesting to see how those boards do against some top elite racers.  It looks like the lack of underbody hard edges makes it a bit tough to keep power down in small wakes.  Rougher conditions may be even more problematic.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on August 09, 2018, 09:55:47 PM
A word from the maker
https://www.facebook.com/100004232409595/posts/1098957243588679/
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on August 09, 2018, 10:45:21 PM
... You can also see in the video how their flatwater board handles chop and wake from other boards.

Saw that.

They guy on the green Lightcorp race really struggles and then gets bogged down once the wake from the Orange GT hits him. Same for the guy on the Pink Lightcorp race.

That's my problem with my Lightcorp V1. Very fast and nice in flat conditions, but when something comes from the side, it is a pain. But I know paddlers, they have no problem with that.
I'm too tall and too heavy (ok, actually I'm not good enough but too big and too heavy sounds better :D ) to handle this in the race. At the start I lose a lot of meters.
The new GT with 23.5 width is too narrow for me. Maximum rider weight according to specification at 90 kg.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on August 10, 2018, 01:15:49 AM
A word from the maker
https://www.facebook.com/100004232409595/posts/1098957243588679/
Sounds like the shaper is on the same voyage of discovery that the leading brands have been on - and that racers go through when they start out. Everyone is looking for ďfreeĒ speed so they turn to obvious possibilities such as rounded hulls, less weight, minimising wetted surface, and then add a few fancy tweaks for show, such as complex chines etc. And then they do their testing in pure flat water - on the grounds that that is the most reliable test.

But what they end up with is something that is really difficult to use, and quite often looks a bit of a dogís dinner. As soon as the paddler uses it in conditions it wasnít tested in - surprise surprise - it is as fast as a dogí dinner too.

IMO there really isnít any simple way to a design like the All Star, Sprint, RS, Maliko etc. Except to copy them. They have been honed by experience more than theory. Hard yards all over the world. And by multiple riders - this is important I think because otherwise you end up with quite singular handling characteristics that might suit your particular pro but not the average Joe (could this perhaps be said of Travisís influence on some of the NSP designs?).

So, if Lightcorp stay the course (and my prediction is that after a couple of seasons of trying, and relatively few sales, they will go back to their core business, like so many others), theyíll probably end up with a decent compromise design in 2-3 yearsí time that can rival the main brands. But right at this moment Iím not quite sure what it is about that video - or the rather poorly-written design notes- that was supposed to convince me to buy one of these boards.

I really hope that they get it right soon though. With the imminent financial meltdown that Brexit is going to cause, we here in the UK could do with a local(ish) brand that makes boards that are gonna last forever because soon none of us are going to be able to afford new boards! But theyíd better do it quick, before the Euro softens too when we default on the 100bn euro payment that the EU thinks it is going to get from us when we leave the EU, and voters in Italy, France and Germany start to resent financially supporting the poorer EU countries... we live in interesting times.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Lake Paddler on August 10, 2018, 01:54:15 AM
The new GT with 23.5 width is too narrow for me. Maximum rider weight according to specification at 90 kg.
...and recommended minimum rider weight: 78 kg. It's an extremely narrow range.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on August 10, 2018, 02:38:42 AM
The new GT with 23.5 width is too narrow for me. Maximum rider weight according to specification at 90 kg.
...and recommended minimum rider weight: 78 kg. It's an extremely narrow range.

Its what happens when you design something scientifically with a targeted waterline. I had a nice email from them this morning with some more thoughts and details. I'm not sure i agree with their design but I oike their process and at least it offers a different angle to the masses.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on August 10, 2018, 03:20:14 AM
The new GT with 23.5 width is too narrow for me. Maximum rider weight according to specification at 90 kg.
...and recommended minimum rider weight: 78 kg. It's an extremely narrow range.

Its what happens when you design something scientifically with a targeted waterline. I had a nice email from them this morning with some more thoughts and details. I'm not sure i agree with their design but I oike their process and at least it offers a different angle to the masses.
78kg minimum? Most of the top racers these days would be a bit lighter than this, surely? Is this aimed at the ďcompetitive but not a podium regularĒ racer? I seem to remember someone (Jim Terrell? Danny Ching?) saying a few years ago that the optimal weight for a male SUP racer is around 70-75kg...?? So maybe they think that if you are over 78kgs you arenít going to be wanting to paddle anything narrower than 23.5Ē wide, and you are most likely a decent weekend warrior but not likely to threaten the best?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on August 10, 2018, 03:48:44 AM
The new GT with 23.5 width is too narrow for me. Maximum rider weight according to specification at 90 kg.
...and recommended minimum rider weight: 78 kg. It's an extremely narrow range.

Its what happens when you design something scientifically with a targeted waterline. I had a nice email from them this morning with some more thoughts and details. I'm not sure i agree with their design but I oike their process and at least it offers a different angle to the masses.
78kg minimum? Most of the top racers these days would be a bit lighter than this, surely? Is this aimed at the ďcompetitive but not a podium regularĒ racer? I seem to remember someone (Jim Terrell? Danny Ching?) saying a few years ago that the optimal weight for a male SUP racer is around 70-75kg...?? So maybe they think that if you are over 78kgs you arenít going to be wanting to paddle anything narrower than 23.5Ē wide, and you are most likely a decent weekend warrior but not likely to threaten the best?

It depends on whether their volume is catering for elites or to the wider market that would buy the board. It's the opposite approach to Naish who seem to design the volume of their race boards based on the weight of an elite paddler or their team riders (but is too low for the market in my view).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on August 10, 2018, 08:51:40 AM
ukgm - weíve been here before. Itís stupid you trying to win (at an elite level) on a 14ft board. You are too big. You should be on an UL. If people like you wonít carry the torch for UL then that really is an example of turkeys voting for Christmas.

But if you are irrevocably focussed on volume (because of this), then have you tried a 2018 14x22.5 Ace? It is a design that is tolerant of changes in waterline.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on September 01, 2018, 12:01:20 AM
ukgm - weíve been here before. Itís stupid you trying to win (at an elite level) on a 14ft board. You are too big. You should be on an UL. If people like you wonít carry the torch for UL then that really is an example of turkeys voting for Christmas.

But if you are irrevocably focussed on volume (because of this), then have you tried a 2018 14x22.5 Ace? It is a design that is tolerant of changes in waterline.

Well, if you go down the road of suitability, I shouldn't be paddling at all - I should either be playing basketball or sitting in a rowing 8. If you get too hung up about sporting disposition for a sport like SUP (that is still in the very early stages of its development), few of us should be racing at all. It's about playing positively with the hand you have in the environment you like than continually berating yourself about what you don't. My bottom line is that I am not an elite athlete - I am an age grouper/amateur who has a trophy cabinet filled with the fruits of that labour but those limitations.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on September 01, 2018, 01:23:57 AM
ukgm - weíve been here before. Itís stupid you trying to win (at an elite level) on a 14ft board. You are too big. You should be on an UL. If people like you wonít carry the torch for UL then that really is an example of turkeys voting for Christmas.

But if you are irrevocably focussed on volume (because of this), then have you tried a 2018 14x22.5 Ace? It is a design that is tolerant of changes in waterline.

Well, if you go down the road of suitability, I shouldn't be paddling at all - I should either be playing basketball or sitting in a rowing 8. If you get too hung up about sporting disposition for a sport like SUP (that is still in the very early stages of its development), few of us should be racing at all. It's about playing positively with the hand you have in the environment you like than continually berating yourself about what you don't. My bottom line is that I am not an elite athlete - I am an age grouper/amateur who has a trophy cabinet filled with the fruits of that labour but those limitations.
The more important point is about paddling *pleasure*. All those hours you spend training for races that are a slog on a 14 could be much nicer if you were on an UL. It would be better for your body, and more enjoyable. But instead of showing leadership in your chosen role within the sport, you are apparently choosing to reinforce a system that conspires against your own, and reduces innovation. Itís a missed opportunity IMO.

But maybe you just havenít paddled enough on UL boards yet. Hopefully ONE, SUNOVA, Starboard etc will have distributors in Europe who will be willing to bring at least one or two of their UL models in, and this will kick-start a change, despite the narrow-mindedness of the increasingly irrelevant race scene. Once youíve tried an UL it is hard to go back to a wider, slower, less stable design, and you start asking yourself why people would insist on the equivalent of a rule that everyone in the London marathon must run in leather army boots.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on September 01, 2018, 02:26:19 AM
ukgm - weíve been here before. Itís stupid you trying to win (at an elite level) on a 14ft board. You are too big. You should be on an UL. If people like you wonít carry the torch for UL then that really is an example of turkeys voting for Christmas.

But if you are irrevocably focussed on volume (because of this), then have you tried a 2018 14x22.5 Ace? It is a design that is tolerant of changes in waterline.

Well, if you go down the road of suitability, I shouldn't be paddling at all - I should either be playing basketball or sitting in a rowing 8. If you get too hung up about sporting disposition for a sport like SUP (that is still in the very early stages of its development), few of us should be racing at all. It's about playing positively with the hand you have in the environment you like than continually berating yourself about what you don't. My bottom line is that I am not an elite athlete - I am an age grouper/amateur who has a trophy cabinet filled with the fruits of that labour but those limitations.
1) The more important point is about paddling *pleasure*. All those hours you spend training for races that are a slog on a 14 could be much nicer if you were on an UL. It would be better for your body, and more enjoyable. But maybe you just havenít paddled enough on UL boards yet. Hopefully ONE, SUNOVA, Starboard etc will have distributors in Europe who will be willing to bring at least one or two of their UL models in, and this will kick-start a change, despite the narrow-mindedness of the increasingly irrelevant race scene. Once youíve tried an UL it is hard to go back to a wider, slower, less stable design, and you start asking yourself why people would insist on the equivalent of a rule that everyone in the London marathon must run in leather army boots.

2) But instead of showing leadership in your chosen role within the sport, you are apparently choosing to reinforce a system that conspires against your own, and reduces innovation. Itís a missed opportunity IMO.



1) I suspect the reason I have been enjoying paddling my surfski more than my SUP is possibly relating to the sensations you allude to. However, the attraction of moving something hard has pleasures of its own. The best example I can think of is bench pressing 40kg 40 times or being able to shunt 100kg 4 times. Or the difference between racing a 12'6 inflatable vs a 14ft hard board (as i did a couple of years back for naish). It's not better or worse, just different. That said. I don't disagree with what you're describing on this and agree with you.

2) Due to work and family commitments I can only probably race across 2-3 sports for 15 weekends per year. Of those, probably 3-4 are SUP related. Of those, 2 are big events where I (rarely) get the chance to race the very best of your peers. I'm not going to blow the few opportunities I have to race something that isn't even allowable within our current legislation or to wave a banner in an event whereby I might not be able to race again for another couple of months. However, if you're suggesting I'm closed minded to paddling one in totality, not at all. I'm able to access several boards from a variety of brands shortly and I'll try anything I can access and I've enquired about several boards (including some production UL's). To get back on thread, I have recently been given the chance to test both Nelo's.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on September 01, 2018, 03:00:52 AM
Have you tried the Lightcorp race paddle?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on September 01, 2018, 03:26:17 AM
To get back on thread, I have recently been given the chance to test both Nelo's.

Unfortunately you are too far away, otherwise you would like to test my Nelo.
And unfortunately, I have not used the Nelo since I got the RS because the RS is so much more fun. But my wife like the Nelo. Nevertheless, I will sell it to buy another RS.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Lake Paddler on September 01, 2018, 03:49:57 AM
To get back on thread, I have recently been given the chance to test both Nelo's.
Nice. Then you would be able to compare their Signature 2.0 to the SB Sprint 14'x21.5". I would be particularly interested in the performance of the GT.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on September 01, 2018, 04:02:31 AM
Have you tried the Lightcorp race paddle?

Nope.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on September 28, 2018, 03:31:50 PM
I just spotted this recent review of the Nelo vs a Starboard Sprint on youtube.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXqfc-A8fos
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on September 30, 2018, 03:13:12 AM
I totally agree with this video. I'll add that, after more than 4 months paddling the Nelo 14x23 (version 2) in all types of different conditions all over France, the Nelo board has a lot of positive attributes. My favorite two are:
- Durability (the board still looks brand spanking new, after nearly 1500 km on the water)
- Super light (I was able to paddle in one of the most magical places in France, with an approach that was nearly 2km long)

So while carrying a board isn't the point of buying a board, it is sometimes an absolute must. The lightweight Nelo excelled in that sense, and paddling has - so far - being nothing short of a pleasure.

Here's "Le pont du Gars" near the town of Avignon in France
(during a super calm day)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-24MVFjX/0/caa2d0a9/X2/i-24MVFjX-X2.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-SEP-14-Taking-a-Closer-Look/n-VtZsbF/i-24MVFjX/A)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on September 30, 2018, 08:41:12 AM
Light is right.

In the word of
   Strong / Light / Cheap   pick any 2

Nelo is nailing it.

Dunno if I'd like the constant roll yet. Keen to try.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on September 30, 2018, 09:17:09 AM
I sold my Nelo in the meantime because I did not get along with my talent, size and weight at side waves and at the start of a race.
Still a nice and fast board, but not for me.
Have ordered now to my SIC RS 14x26 still a RS 14x23.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on September 30, 2018, 04:16:13 PM
Light is right.

In the word of
   Strong / Light / Cheap   pick any 2

Nelo is nailing it.

Dunno if I'd like the constant roll yet. Keen to try.

Well the proof will be in the pudding but the GT takes a more conventional design approach but with that weight benefit so Iíd be inclined to seriously consider that one. Iím just waiting for the demo boards to come into the uk shortly.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on September 30, 2018, 05:59:51 PM
The GT looks a bit more like a ďrealĒ raceboard. Iím not sure how well that design will draft though. Will be interesting to know. They still look like they roll a bit.

I really hope the GT turns out to be something we can get fully behind. A light and durable construction (carbon, hollow, 21 lbs) board for about the same price as a 2019 Starboard All Star is an intriguing proposition. (And made in Europe, too.)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on October 01, 2018, 12:19:49 AM
The GT looks a bit more like a ďrealĒ raceboard. Iím not sure how well that design will draft though. Will be interesting to know.

I'll let you know !!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Lake Paddler on October 08, 2018, 04:00:53 AM
Talked to Gerd at the PADDLEexpo. The Light teamriders did a head-to-head comparison of the GT and Signature 2.0 14x23 in 600m sprint and the speed difference was, according to Gerd, very marginal (nope I didn't question him about the soundness of the setup from a statistical point of view). Gerd himself was placed 3rd in a recent local 10km race with a prototype of the GT and found its performance time-wise comparable to his Signature 2.0 14x24.5 (he's 88kg and ca. 188cm). The GT is going to weigh the same as the Signature 2.0---9.5 kg for both. Gerd added that the GT is better at tracking but not as sensible as the Signature 2.0 that is better at buoy turns. It's arriving in Frankfurt in 10 days so I'm really looking forward to a demo.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on October 08, 2018, 01:08:42 PM
Talked to Gerd at the PADDLEexpo. The Light teamriders did a head-to-head comparison of the GT and Signature 2.0 14x23 in 600m sprint and the speed difference was, according to Gerd, very marginal (nope I didn't question him about the soundness of the setup from a statistical point of view). Gerd himself was placed 3rd in a recent local 10km race with a prototype of the GT and found its performance time-wise comparable to his Signature 2.0 14x24.5 (he's 88kg and ca. 188cm). The GT is going to weigh the same as the Signature 2.0---9.5 kg for both. Gerd added that the GT is better at tracking but not as sensible as the Signature 2.0 that is better at buoy turns. It's arriving in Frankfurt in 10 days so I'm really looking forward to a demo.

Keep us posted. Iím still waiting in the uk for my demo. As an aside, I was presenting at an ICF conference last weekend and I was talking afterwards to the other big kayak manufacture - Plastex (based in Poland). They are just launching their own hollow SUP board now too.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 12, 2018, 01:34:13 PM
The GT looks a bit more like a ďrealĒ raceboard. Iím not sure how well that design will draft though. Will be interesting to know.

I'll let you know !!

Iíve now got a GT on trial for a month. I paddled it for the first time today. It will take some getting used to as the low weight and construction really proceed different dynamics compared to solid core boards. First thoughts were though that I like it. Magazine review to come soon.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on December 12, 2018, 06:40:24 PM
It would be interesting to see how a lighter board manages in bigger chop.
Lighter is not always better for stability or seaworthiness. i.e. a lighter downwind board is not always better than a slightly heavier one.
For the lake and river that you are racing in, it might be totally irrelevant and lighter is simply better.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on December 12, 2018, 11:05:54 PM
I agree with Luc. But presume this board is aimed mainly at inland waters paddlers...?

What I want to know about is strength, durability, and cost. What puts many people off hollow boards (at least for coastal paddlers) is the thought that you might spring a leak and end up losing your buoyancy. Of course, hollow boards are much easier to dry out and fix if you did. But how hard would it be to put a dime-sized hole in it (or fold it in surf), and what exactly would happen if you did?

Hollow boards are a bit noisy to paddle in coastal waters too, right?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: yugi on December 13, 2018, 12:41:40 AM
It would be interesting to see how a lighter board manages in bigger chop.
Lighter is not always better for stability or seaworthiness. i.e. a lighter downwind board is not always better than a slightly heavier one.
For the lake and river that you are racing in, it might be totally irrelevant and lighter is simply better.

Light weight is critical whenever you're doing sports with lots of vertical altitude gain.

 ;)

Paddling gets me high as a kite. Does that count?

Bottom line is a light board is way easier to get on the roof and upper racks.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 13, 2018, 01:14:19 AM
1) It would be interesting to see how a lighter board manages in bigger chop.
2) Lighter is not always better for stability or seaworthiness. i.e. a lighter downwind board is not always better than a slightly heavier one.
3) For the lake and river that you are racing in, it might be totally irrelevant and lighter is simply better.
1) Agreed. I'm trying that for the first time tomorrow.

2) Again, agreed. As I've said to other people, this board feels almost like a ski or a K1 in that the high stiffness and light weight makes anything you do have an immediate and VERY direct response. Much more direct than anything you're likely to have used before board-wise. This doesn't make it more tippy per se' but you do need to be much more subtle in any corrections you make.

3) Too soon to say yet. For events that have any form of accelerations e.g. technical or sprint events, the weight reduction is insanely worthwhile when you need to get going from zero. Its incredibly easy to spike its speed to 12kph+ but holding it there for long will be a challenge !!

By the way, I'm using the 23.5 width version and its interesting - particularly as my board for the last month had been a 23.5 Allstar.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 13, 2018, 01:21:09 AM
1) I agree with Luc. But presume this board is aimed mainly at inland waters paddlers...?

2) What I want to know about is strength, durability, and cost. What puts many people off hollow boards (at least for coastal paddlers) is the thought that you might spring a leak and end up losing your buoyancy.

3) Hollow boards are a bit noisy to paddle in coastal waters too, right?
1) Hmm, the literature makes it appear that this is an allwater board. I'll need some major sea miles logged on it before I'd be comfortable in anything other than estuary level chop. This board is skills-wise right at my current limits.

2) Worries over hollow boards is really based on those probably unfamiliar to kayaks and skis' They've had this method of build for years, its really robust and I loved being able to lift it off the roof with one hand and not be using something that dings if I even so much as fart in the wrong direction. It's got Nelo building it and whilst I'll know more in a month, they are renowned for their build quality.

3) I take your point about noise. It doesn't make any when its moving on flatwater but the lack of a foam core means it doesn't have much in the way of damping qualities. In other words, it makes an echoing bang noise when going over chop.

As for cost, it's probably better you don't ask....... You know how raceboards are these days...
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on December 13, 2018, 01:23:21 PM
Yeah I know that hollow boards are tough and all that - and Iíve owned a few kayaks myself. But if Iím going to be downwinding in 40 knots 2 miles offshore in 4C water and head-high bumps during a UK winter, then I want to know FOR SURE that my bloody board isnít gonna sink and leave me with nothing much buoyant to cling onto.

But of course, Nelo are probably just thinking of people paddling in rivers, lakes and canals etc in lightish winds. Nothing too treacherous.

As regards the cost, Iíd pay extra for a board that was super-durable, is superbly finished, and will last years. Whereas I canít counternance paying 3k+ GBP for a Starboard. I might as well just pay someone 3k to kick me in the balls since Iíd feel the same at the end.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 14, 2018, 02:27:31 AM
1) But of course, Nelo are probably just thinking of people paddling in rivers, lakes and canals etc in lightish winds. Nothing too treacherous.

2) As regards the cost, Iíd pay extra for a board that was super-durable, is superbly finished, and will last years. Whereas I canít counternance paying 3k+ GBP for a Starboard. I might as well just pay someone 3k to kick me in the balls since Iíd feel the same at the end.

1) That's not true. Nelo already make a (well received) range of ocean surfski's so I'd guess they know exactly what they are doing with construction. I don't know anyone who has sunk their craft in the manner you describe so frankly I wouldn't worry as long as you go paddling properly equipped and supported.

2) I think the depreciation isn't going to be pretty regardless of how this is made but I'd buy one of these as one of those infamous "this is the last board I'll buy" kind of moments. The fact you can carry it under your arm and lift it around as you would a small bag of groceries make the whole user off-water experience fantastic. This will last years of looking as good as the day you bought it. The price of this does make me wince though - mainly as I can buy even the most well respected brand of surf ski with the same method of construction for less.

As for its on-water offshore behaviour, well, ask me in about 5 hours time....
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on December 14, 2018, 02:38:32 PM
I don't know about Nelo but I rode my Standamaran and a hollow F16 on an off-shore downwind runs,
both full of water due to worn-out o-rings, and made it back with no issues other than taking the
boards out of the water as they were too heavy to carry by one man.

Apparently SIC add certain amount of foam inside just for that purpose, maybe Nelo does the same
for their ocean grade crafts?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on December 15, 2018, 01:22:56 AM
Hollow constructions for surfskis and boards arenít all the same. Neloís hollow construction uses a foam core (a sandwich) construction that will provide buyancy even if you have a hole in your ski or board.

I can vouch 100% on that having destroyed one of my Nelo craft on a little island offshore: I am still here ;)

Durability:
Nothing will last for ever... but my board now has over 27000km on the roof of my van with no cover/no protection... and about 1100km on the water... AND still looks brand new each time I clean it. Thatís just a whole more that I can say for a multitude of other boards on the market.

Ocean use?
Iíll vouch for my board there too... it surfs like a dream (even though Iíd call it a little technical with side shop - perhaps due to my feather-weight). Still absolutely fantastic with each acceleration. Its rear rocker makes it a truely fun board in lighter DW conditions... Iíd say they nailed that for sure.

Valve:
Check out the new one-way valve: how clever!
(Now they can lower the deck even more... perhaps in the near future)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on December 15, 2018, 02:58:06 AM
Are they going to make these in widths that the average (weight, ability) paddler could cope with, or are these boards just going be specialised equipment for the dedicated racer market?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on December 15, 2018, 04:46:38 AM
Just for info, I got the 2.0 14x23. They make the 14x24.5 which should be tons more stable, and they make the GT that is even more stable yet.

I am not racing, but I imagine that the GT or the signature 2.0 in 14x24.5 should make advanced and expert paddlers pretty happy.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on December 15, 2018, 11:22:44 AM
Just for info, I got the 2.0 14x23. They make the 14x24.5 which should be tons more stable, and they make the GT that is even more stable yet.

I am not racing, but I imagine that the GT or the signature 2.0 in 14x24.5 should make advanced and expert paddlers pretty happy.

I had a Lightcorp 14x24.5, but only worked really well in flat conditions. Now I have the SIC RS 14x23 and that seems to me more stable. Although is also tippy, but does not roll.

My paddle buddy with 20 kg and 20 cm less copes with the 14x24.5 Light Corp without problems. Even in downwind conditions no problem.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on December 15, 2018, 12:29:37 PM
Just for info, I got the 2.0 14x23. They make the 14x24.5 which should be tons more stable, and they make the GT that is even more stable yet.

I am not racing, but I imagine that the GT or the signature 2.0 in 14x24.5 should make advanced and expert paddlers pretty happy.

I had a Lightcorp 14x24.5, but only worked really well in flat conditions. Now I have the SIC RS 14x23 and that seems to me more stable. Although is also tippy, but does not roll.

My paddle buddy with 20 kg and 20 cm less copes with the 14x24.5 Light Corp without problems. Even in downwind conditions no problem.
Sorry for the hijack, but how different is your 14x23 RS in terms of stability and speed than your 14x26 RS? Iíve got a 14x26 RS and it is so stable in flat water that Iím considering getting the 14x23 too. I probably should have got the 14x24.5 originally, but I didnít realise quite how stable this board was going to be. Now Iím not sure that if I get the 24.5 there will be enough of a difference to justify the expense, so am thinking about the 23 instead. However, I once owned a 14x23 JL Sidewinder and found that even at my average weight, it didnít really work well, and was much faster with a light person on board. So if you donít mind me asking, how heavy are you, Mr Proper, and is the 23 useable in the ocean as well as flat water? Recently I was paddling with one of the worldís best elite pros, and he was on a 14x23 RS and fell off it in mild ocean chop (he was turning to talk to a friend, mind you), so I do wonder.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on December 15, 2018, 02:25:35 PM
Just for info, I got the 2.0 14x23. They make the 14x24.5 which should be tons more stable, and they make the GT that is even more stable yet.

I am not racing, but I imagine that the GT or the signature 2.0 in 14x24.5 should make advanced and expert paddlers pretty happy.

I had a Lightcorp 14x24.5, but only worked really well in flat conditions. Now I have the SIC RS 14x23 and that seems to me more stable. Although is also tippy, but does not roll.

My paddle buddy with 20 kg and 20 cm less copes with the 14x24.5 Light Corp without problems. Even in downwind conditions no problem.
Sorry for the hijack, but how different is your 14x23 RS in terms of stability and speed than your 14x26 RS? Iíve got a 14x26 RS and it is so stable in flat water that Iím considering getting the 14x23 too. I probably should have got the 14x24.5 originally, but I didnít realise quite how stable this board was going to be. Now Iím not sure that if I get the 24.5 there will be enough of a difference to justify the expense, so am thinking about the 23 instead. However, I once owned a 14x23 JL Sidewinder and found that even at my average weight, it didnít really work well, and was much faster with a light person on board. So if you donít mind me asking, how heavy are you, Mr Proper, and is the 23 useable in the ocean as well as flat water? Recently I was paddling with one of the worldís best elite pros, and he was on a 14x23 RS and fell off it in mild ocean chop (he was turning to talk to a friend, mind you), so I do wonder.

I had the same thoughts too. I think the difference between 26 and 24.5 is too small and that's why I decided for the 23. But also because my wife likes it a lot. For me, it should only be in the very flat, because I'm actually too big and too heavy for the 23. SIC gives a max riders weight of 88.5 kg and I have 93kg at 195 cm.
I usually paddle only on lakes and rivers. On holiday for the sea I have the 26.
Unfortunately, I can not say anything about the speed, since I've paddled the 23 only in wind and waves so far. As long as the waves do not come directly from the side, that works very well. At least I have not gone swimming yet. By the sea, the board will probably be too narrow for me.
I'll report as soon as I can test the board in calmer conditions and say something about speed. At the moment I have the feeling that the cold water costs speed. But maybe I'm just unfit.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 16, 2018, 12:57:36 AM

(Now they can lower the deck even more... perhaps in the near future)

On the GT, they certainly have licence for that. Even at my 90kg, I'm still a good inch or so off the waterline.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 16, 2018, 12:58:55 AM
Just for info, I got the 2.0 14x23. They make the 14x24.5 which should be tons more stable, and they make the GT that is even more stable yet.

I am not racing, but I imagine that the GT or the signature 2.0 in 14x24.5 should make advanced and expert paddlers pretty happy.

I had a Lightcorp 14x24.5, but only worked really well in flat conditions. Now I have the SIC RS 14x23 and that seems to me more stable. Although is also tippy, but does not roll.

My paddle buddy with 20 kg and 20 cm less copes with the 14x24.5 Light Corp without problems. Even in downwind conditions no problem.
Sorry for the hijack, but how different is your 14x23 RS in terms of stability and speed than your 14x26 RS? Iíve got a 14x26 RS and it is so stable in flat water that Iím considering getting the 14x23 too. I probably should have got the 14x24.5 originally, but I didnít realise quite how stable this board was going to be. Now Iím not sure that if I get the 24.5 there will be enough of a difference to justify the expense, so am thinking about the 23 instead. However, I once owned a 14x23 JL Sidewinder and found that even at my average weight, it didnít really work well, and was much faster with a light person on board. So if you donít mind me asking, how heavy are you, Mr Proper, and is the 23 useable in the ocean as well as flat water? Recently I was paddling with one of the worldís best elite pros, and he was on a 14x23 RS and fell off it in mild ocean chop (he was turning to talk to a friend, mind you), so I do wonder.

I had the same thoughts too. I think the difference between 26 and 24.5 is too small and that's why I decided for the 23. But also because my wife likes it a lot. For me, it should only be in the very flat, because I'm actually too big and too heavy for the 23. SIC gives a max riders weight of 88.5 kg and I have 93kg at 195 cm.
I usually paddle only on lakes and rivers. On holiday for the sea I have the 26.
Unfortunately, I can not say anything about the speed, since I've paddled the 23 only in wind and waves so far. As long as the waves do not come directly from the side, that works very well. At least I have not gone swimming yet. By the sea, the board will probably be too narrow for me.
I'll report as soon as I can test the board in calmer conditions and say something about speed. At the moment I have the feeling that the cold water costs speed. But maybe I'm just unfit.

The design is so crucial. I found the drop from the 2017 24.5 Allstar to the 2018 23.5 a much bigger jump than expected. The former board was rock solid, the 23.5 I have found useable but with a surprising amount of challenge..... and that was just due to shaping tweaks and a n inch loss.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 16, 2018, 01:00:48 AM
Just for info, I got the 2.0 14x23. They make the 14x24.5 which should be tons more stable, and they make the GT that is even more stable yet.

I am not racing, but I imagine that the GT or the signature 2.0 in 14x24.5 should make advanced and expert paddlers pretty happy.

I was told by another paddler that they found the 24.5 Signature a lot more stable than the 23.5 GT. I haven't tried the 2.0 yet. I may well do when I hand the GT back.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 16, 2018, 02:11:35 AM
Are they going to make these in widths that the average (weight, ability) paddler could cope with, or are these boards just going be specialised equipment for the dedicated racer market?

I'll ask but if you think about it, I thinks its unlikely. The designs (in terms of design, feel and price) are very uncompromising. The cost associated with new moulds isn't cheap and I think they would have done it already if they were planning to. The Signature launched with two widths already but the GT only one.

I'll say this, based on the two paddles I'd had so far, if I were looking for a new board right now, this is what I would buy. I'm tired of heavy boards that look like crap after 6 months.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on December 16, 2018, 06:28:39 AM
ďif I were looking for a new board right now, this is what I would buyĒ.

Ok, so if a board you demo doesnít make you buy it, whether you are ďlooking for a new boardĒ or not, then it isnít that great an improvement over what you already have. :)

When you tell us that youíve just spent 3700 GBP of your own money on one, thatís when Iíll really take an interest.

It would be lovely to think that I could buy this board and finally get under an hour for the course Iíve been paddling (and trying to do just that) for 10 years. But experience has told me that that is just a pipe dream. Mostly, with boards, what you gain in one direction you lose in some other, and it all seems to even itself out more or less. So gains are small that way. The thing that makes a big difference however is training. So maybe if I bought this board and found it so damn tippy that I lost some weight and used a balance trainer every night, then I might then go faster and achieve my goal. However, if that series of events occur, is it accurate to say that it was the board that made me faster? In some ways of looking at it, the answer is ďyesĒ. And in others it is ďnoĒ. Itís a tricky philosophical conundrum:)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on December 16, 2018, 11:26:25 AM
...is it accurate to say that it was the board that made me faster? In some ways of looking at it, the answer is ďyesĒ. And in others it is ďnoĒ. Itís a tricky philosophical conundrum:)

In your case I think it's very straight forward though, after years of paddling and countless boards, if no one board made you get there it is safe to assume no board will ;)
But I agree with your assessment that if demoing that board didn't make ukgm buy it I guess there was no "shaking your head in disbelief" moment that we rarely get from a new board.

I suspect the real thing this board has going for it is the construction quality to weight ratio. It's nothing to sneeze about, but maybe not to a point it will make one part with a hard earned 3700 GBP.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 16, 2018, 11:51:36 AM
ďif I were looking for a new board right now, this is what I would buyĒ.

Ok, so if a board you demo doesnít make you buy it, whether you are ďlooking for a new boardĒ or not, then it isnít that great an improvement over what you already have. :)

When you tell us that youíve just spent 3700 GBP of your own money on one, thatís when Iíll really take an interest.

It would be lovely to think that I could buy this board and finally get under an hour for the course Iíve been paddling (and trying to do just that) for 10 years. But experience has told me that that is just a pipe dream. Mostly, with boards, what you gain in one direction you lose in some other, and it all seems to even itself out more or less. So gains are small that way. The thing that makes a big difference however is training. So maybe if I bought this board and found it so damn tippy that I lost some weight and used a balance trainer every night, then I might then go faster and achieve my goal. However, if that series of events occur, is it accurate to say that it was the board that made me faster? In some ways of looking at it, the answer is ďyesĒ. And in others it is ďnoĒ. Itís a tricky philosophical conundrum:)

Well, my answer didnít make my intent clear. Bear in mind this board loan was always with the reason of writing a review, not with the consideration of possibly buying it. Put simply, it wouldnít be worth me buying any new board this year as Iím only planning on racing SUP once (at our national sprint champs). However, wanna take a guess at what board Iím probably borrowing for those ? ;-)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on December 16, 2018, 05:35:43 PM
The board that Arthur Carvalho Mas Santacreu used to win the ISA sprints so convincingly against a field of bigger names?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on December 16, 2018, 07:04:17 PM
The board that Arthur Carvalho Mas Santacreu used to win the ISA sprints so convincingly against a field of bigger names?

What brand is that? Interesting shape. And the South African lady on a Naish Maliko (I am sure not a production one because of the weight).
ISA is still with the silly 12.6 rule I guess.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on December 17, 2018, 01:17:37 AM


I was told by another paddler that they found the 24.5 Signature a lot more stable than the 23.5 GT. I haven't tried the 2.0 yet. I may well do when I hand the GT back.

Very interested to hear more about the GT 23.5 being more or less stable than the Signature 24.75. Perhaps weíll see different feedback based on Ocean paddling and flat water paddling.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on December 17, 2018, 01:55:26 AM
Why are people being so skeptical about reviews?

Thereís a huge difference between a stroll whoís never been here before, with no honor to defend - AND someone like UKGM and the likes who have 1000ís of posts to their name and MUST at all cost provide accurate feedback and reviews.

Seems to me that UKGM really likes the board that he is demoeing. I canít wait to see what he really has to say about this new GT.

I, for one, have given you guys the most straight forward feedback on the Signature 1.0 and 2.0 (both in the 14x23 version). You were given pros and cons without me holding back.

To recap:
The 2.0 is more suited for heavier paddlers (not so much for the 45 to 65 kilo market).

The 2.0 has many new improvements compared to the 1.0. The standing is flattened, though in my eyes "not enough". The front volume is fantastic for heavier paddlers and for DW, but not so much for ultra light paddlers as it catches wind.

Yes, there are quite a few drawbacks and potential fixes Iíd like to see on the 2.0, but to be super fair, you guys seemingly only want to hear the bad news of any products.

Either way, the 3 things that still come up on top, and way on TOP are:
- DURABILITY... show me a board that will outlast Neloís construction.
- LIGHTWEIGHT... I never get used to it, on land just like on the water.
- AMAZING ACCELERATIONS... light boards boards and skis will get tossed around a little more than their heavier contre parts. However, the benefits you get out of a super fast acceleration are endless. At the start, you are gone. When wanting to sprint in order to shake off a paddler, it will just be so much easier because the board is just so light. After each turn, you will find yourself taking faster than before. Last, but not least, this is also an Ocean board, where each ripple asks you to accelerate, where each wave demands an increase of speed.

So you have analyzed all the pros and cons from this post and my previous ones... it is now up to you to see you find enough benefits in this new construction. Either, I vouch and am accountable.

Should you find anything that is remotely UNTRUE in my description of this new construction, I invite you to come talk calmy to me in person, or to contact me via email or phone. All my contact is visible on the home page of photofr.com

Cheers everyone.

And @UKGM - eager to get your feedback when ever you feel you are ready.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 17, 2018, 02:11:50 AM
The board that Arthur Carvalho Mas Santacreu used to win the ISA sprints so convincingly against a field of bigger names?

That looks like one of the Mistral prototypes. I know it isn't but interesting nonetheless. No, its always been about picking equipment to suit the conditions of the race you'll expect. However, in this case, you need to get out of the blocks and ahead of the wash and to do that, you need a board whereby you can access the highest top speed as quickly as possible and the highest rate of acceleration. Hypothetically speaking, if the GT is any good, its the equivalent for me of dropping my body's race weight from 89 to ~85kg. That's a huge performance advantage. Once at cruising speed, with a high cadence stroke, you're not going to see much (if any advantage) but the gain would have been obtained in the first 10-12 seconds hopefully.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on December 17, 2018, 04:22:38 AM
photofr- I think we are being generally very positive about the possibility of these Nelo boards. However, over the last 10+ years we have seen many race board designs produced that were fast for elite riders. Itís pretty easy to design a board that would be fast for Kai Lenny on a lake. Even I could do that. Itís also easy to create a very tough light board that is expensive. The difficult thing is to create a design that flatters all paddlers, and works well in real-world race conditions, and on real-world race courses. Many brands have made wild claims for their boards over the years, and many people connected to the brands have submitted ďfirst impressionsĒ reviews that were written during the inevitable ďhoneymoon periodĒ of board demo or ownership. Many times, we have been told that X board is the best ever, and is the answer to all problems, only to have the same person just 6 months later say the same thing about some new design.

So forgive me if Iím interested, but slightly sceptical. I doubt very much that I could use either of these boards in a typical UK race, and I couldnít afford one anyway. So, my enthusiasm is understandably muted. Why should it be otherwise? Give me a reason to be excited about this. Itís just another super-expensive specialist board designed for less than 1% of the paddling community paddling in very specific conditions. Meh.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 17, 2018, 05:37:08 AM
1) Why are people being so skeptical about reviews? Thereís a huge difference between a stroll whoís never been here before, with no honor to defend - AND someone like UKGM and the likes who have 1000ís of posts to their name and MUST at all cost provide accurate feedback and reviews.

2) Seems to me that UKGM really likes the board that he is demoeing. I canít wait to see what he really has to say about this new GT.

3) Either way, the 3 things that still come up on top, and way on TOP are:
- DURABILITY... show me a board that will outlast Neloís construction.
- LIGHTWEIGHT... I never get used to it, on land just like on the water.
- AMAZING ACCELERATIONS... light boards boards and skis will get tossed around a little more than their heavier contre parts. However, the benefits you get out of a super fast acceleration are endless. At the start, you are gone. When wanting to sprint in order to shake off a paddler, it will just be so much easier because the board is just so light. After each turn, you will find yourself taking faster than before. Last, but not least, this is also an Ocean board, where each ripple asks you to accelerate, where each wave demands an increase of speed.

4) And @UKGM - eager to get your feedback when ever you feel you are ready.

1) The problem (as Area10 raises) is that there are so many badly conceived, biased or irrelevant reviews out there. Even if I threw as much data at testing this board as I could, my thoughts are not going to be as relevant to him as my style/nature of paddling is not representative of his own. And he is right - we've been here before with several other wonderboards.

2) I've currently only logged 4 total hours on it. My first impressions are very good so far. It's not perfect but I really like it. However, I haven't logged enough time on chop yet and I haven't raced it. Both of these experiences are crucial for me (and should have been accommodated by mid January when I hand it back). I think the really big question is surrounding it's price. Even if I think this is the best board ever, would I be willing to pay this much for it ? That's a question I can't answer yet.

3) This is actually the greatest problem I'm currently having with this board. I'm finding it hard to separate the bits I like that are due to its shape vs those created by its construction and its weight. I also think that the 'immediate' or 'direct' response it has due to its light weight is not going to be easy for everyone to adapt to (or just to frankly like) no matter how well it performs. I've gotten used to this quite quickly but then I'm used to surf ski's whereby the feeling is much the same.

4) There will be a full and detailed review in one of the online magazines coming out probably around February. My list of notes so far is very long already.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 17, 2018, 05:42:10 AM
Give me a reason to be excited about this. Itís just another super-expensive specialist board designed for less than 1% of the paddling community paddling in very specific conditions. Meh.

You may well be right. It's an 'expert' level board in my eyes (not elite as I think many paddlers could handle it with enough time). If they did something like a 26 width version, that would satisfy the mainstream market and have many advantages for that kind of paddler.

For reasons of transparency though, I want to point out to everyone that I personally requested to test this board (it wasn't pushed onto me), was sourced as a loan via a friend I have in the industry and have been given the scope to review the board in a balanced way with no promises made or gifts offered in kind with respect to its outcome. I'm currently not sponsored and I've maintained that ethos to be able to test equipment like this.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on December 17, 2018, 01:10:06 PM
Well, if I was going to be persuaded by any review, it would be written by you (or one of a select group of others here on this forum Iíve come to trust over the last X years). A common problem that reviewers have, apart from intended or unintented bias, is that relatively few people paddle lots of boards *in lots of conditions*. So they havenít really built up enough of a mental database to be able to put their findings into context. The kinds of comparisons people find most useful are direct comparisons with other well-known model, e.g. ďthis board is noticeably more/less stable in chop than a Starboard Sprint 14x23Ē. Such comparisons certainly arenít objective by any means, but they can be more helpful nevertheless than bland statements like ďis super-stableĒ.

Actually, statements like that really p**s me off: I recently saw a very narrow version of a board design that is known to be a bit tippy, being sold with the assurance ďit is super stable in all conditionsĒ. Stable for who? Maybe Kai Lenny, but otherwise this is as close as a lie as it is possible to get - or else the seller has never tried a *really* stable board. Compare it with a baseline board and then we can judge.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 17, 2018, 01:54:15 PM
Well, if I was going to be persuaded by any review, it would be written by you (or one of a select group of others here on this forum Iíve come to trust over the last X years). A common problem that reviewers have, apart from intended or unintented bias, is that relatively few people paddle lots of boards *in lots of conditions*. So they havenít really built up enough of a mental database to be able to put their findings into context. The kinds of comparisons people find most useful are direct comparisons with other well-known model, e.g. ďthis board is noticeably more/less stable in chop than a Starboard Sprint 14x23Ē. Such comparisons certainly arenít objective by any means, but they can be more helpful nevertheless than bland statements like ďis super-stableĒ.

Actually, statements like that really p**s me off: I recently saw a very narrow version of a board design that is known to be a bit tippy, being sold with the assurance ďit is super stable in all conditionsĒ. Stable for who? Maybe Kai Lenny, but otherwise this is as close as a lie as it is possible to get - or else the seller has never tried a *really* stable board. Compare it with a baseline board and then we can judge.

You raise an interesting point. My current training board is a 14ft 2018 starboard allstar in a 23.5 width - the same as the Nelo. I was wondering whether it would be helpful to refer to that board or whether it would be more objective to ignore that entirely.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on December 17, 2018, 03:03:44 PM
You raise an interesting point. My current training board is a 14ft 2018 starboard allstar in a 23.5 width - the same as the Nelo. I was wondering whether it would be helpful to refer to that board or whether it would be more objective to ignore that entirely.

Even-though it's still biased, it would be more helpful if other boards you know well are referenced.
At least for me it paints some sort of a mental picture if you compare it in depth to a board I know well.

If you compare it with 2 other boards that are distinctively different, that can be super helpful in
understanding what is your point of view. Might even teach you something about your self in the process.

Sure is a time commitment. So Thanks for taking the time!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on December 17, 2018, 03:18:09 PM
Even-though it's still biased, it would be more helpful if other boards you know well are referenced.
At least for me it paints some sort of a mental picture if you compare it in depth to a board I know well.

Yes that is the Sacred Graal of learning about a board without been able to try it.
I could totally relate to Area10 review of the Vapor and your review of the Maliko and could take the (wise) decision of buying these with only 5 minutes testing.
From there as soon as you review another board with that frame of reference, I am in known territory.
If I was into flat water and races, then I could compare what Bryce is saying about a board with the same confidence.

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on December 19, 2018, 02:48:34 AM
@UKGM
You've paddled the Signature 2.0 (14x23) - if I recall correctly, right?
So far, what's your first impression when comparing the stability of the 2.0 (14x23) vs. the GT (14x23.5)?

I may not be the average paddler, but I am no Elite paddler, and I am certainly not an expert SUP paddler. Meanwhile, I still paddle often, and in a variety of conditions - with the 2.0 (14x23). I just don't see how or even why you would call the Nelo boards EXPERT BOARDS.

Based on 4 categories:
Beginner
Intermediate
Advanced
Expert Paddler

***
I would be very leaning towards calling the Nelo 2.0 (14x23) an Advanced Paddler board, but where would you stand on this?
***

FYI:
I would place the category (ELITE) between Advanced and Expert.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on December 19, 2018, 03:20:16 AM

1) You've paddled the Signature 2.0 (14x23) - if I recall correctly, right?
So far, what's your first impression when comparing the stability of the 2.0 (14x23) vs. the GT (14x23.5)?

2) I just don't see how or even why you would call the Nelo boards EXPERT BOARDS. I would be very leaning towards calling the Nelo 2.0 (14x23) an Advanced Paddler board, but where would you stand on this?
***

Good questions. Here are my replies:

1) No I haven't paddled a 2.0 yet. I've been given the chance to though but I suspect the 23 is too much for me to sprint on at full power in a high quality race start. I'll likely try the 24.75 at my size. I'm 6ft 3 and 90kg so I'm inclined to be conservative.

2) Yep, this is always going to be a relative thing (as it is with surfski's). I only called the GT 23.5 alone an expert level board though. This is based on my experience so far that it requires constant attention but its manageable for me of paddles upto 90 minutes with only a couple of braces per session on flatwater and light chop so far. I would also add that my technical skills (turns and balance to be average-poor for a racer) but my raw level of fitness is quite high. My high centre of gravity doesn't help but in real terms many of the paddlers in this thread alone will be more technically competent than I am. I only train to the demands of an event I'm aiming at, not to be a better paddler generally.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on January 04, 2019, 03:46:32 AM
My Nelo board has been a real blessing, and there are so many reasons as to why I would highly recommend a racer (or serious paddler) to try one.

The price, however, is always a huge factor. I feel that you get a whole lot more from the Nelo hollow sandwich construction than the standard Styrofoam sandwich construction found in even the top brands like Starboard. In fact... here's another way to look at it:

3599.00 euros for a Starboard top of the line construction AND 3600.00 euros for a Nelo top of the line hollow construction. They can't even compare in terms of construction, where the Nelo could be considered BULLET-PROOF in comparaison.

Having said this, we'll all agree that it's a high-priced-item.
Here's the thing... how would you feel if I said you could get a nearly brand new Nelo Signature 2 board, yes, the full carbon hollow board with custom colors for 2400 euros?

My board still looks like new every time I wipe it down with a basic cloth. It's still in an impeccable condition... for 2400 euros, it's YOURS.

Regrettably, I am selling my 2018 Nelo board for 2400 euros. I need to fix my van - so contact me if you are interested.
ludovic@photofr.com
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 04, 2019, 05:57:45 AM
My Nelo board has been a real blessing, and there are so many reasons as to why I would highly recommend a racer (or serious paddler) to try one.

The price, however, is always a huge factor. I feel that you get a whole lot more from the Nelo hollow sandwich construction than the standard Styrofoam sandwich construction found in even the top brands like Starboard. In fact... here's another way to look at it:

3599.00 euros for a Starboard top of the line construction AND 3600.00 euros for a Nelo top of the line hollow construction. They can't even compare in terms of construction, where the Nelo could be considered BULLET-PROOF in comparaison.

Having said this, we'll all agree that it's a high-priced-item.
Here's the thing... how would you feel if I said you could get a nearly brand new Nelo Signature 2 board, yes, the full carbon hollow board with custom colors for 2400 euros?

My board still looks like new every time I wipe it down with a basic cloth. It's still in an impeccable condition... for 2400 euros, it's YOURS.

Regrettably, I am selling my 2018 Nelo board for 2400 euros. I need to fix my van - so contact me if you are interested.
ludovic@photofr.com

It's worth noting though that I could buy a surf ski (which is bigger and more complex) using the same construction method to the same quality for far less though than one of these is new. I completely agree the Light Signatures construction quality blows anything available by any other brand away though.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on January 04, 2019, 11:20:40 AM
Anyone can ask directly with Lightcorp for a team rider price, which is then very cheap. I don't know anyone who has paid the official price, no matter what brand.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on January 10, 2019, 02:24:02 AM
Sure, but before doing that, you have to dedicate yourself to:
- Contacting them
- Racing obligations
- 6 or more weeks of waiting (think of it as two months)

Meanwhile:
I lowered the price of my board for a quicker sale: 2200 euros - so feel free to shoot me an email if you are interested.
ludovic@photofr.com
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 10, 2019, 10:20:58 AM
Sure, but before doing that, you have to dedicate yourself to:
- Contacting them
- Racing obligations
- 6 or more weeks of waiting (think of it as two months)

That's not a big ask I'd say (and pretty much in line with most team deals in my experience). The problem I find is that many paddlers just see team deals as a discounted or a free board and you're then doing the job for them by riding it but you've got to give a brand some added value. I'd add social media management to that list too (at least I would say so if you want to last on such deals). Unless you're one of the international race winners alone that will get the exposure, race results aren't worth much to a brand. The advice I gave to a brand looking for a paddler recently is that I can go to a local race that will have typically around 40 paddlers and maybe a few spectators. On the other hand, I can put out a video on youtube and get 3000 views worth of traffic within a fortnight. It's obvious to see where the best chances of a sale then come from for them.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 10, 2019, 10:25:56 AM
Dunno if I'd like the constant roll yet. Keen to try.

Just on this point Yugi, I'm hoping to be laying on my hands on a Signature 2.0 after I hand the GT back soon so I'll keep you posted. If the Signature is anything like the GT, it's not the boards design causing a constant roll, its the boards low mass and inertia that creates that lively constant motion feel (rather than actual instability). On the GT, my calves and legs got such a shock in my first paddle on it, I felt like that first ever paddle on a SUP board all over again. You have to learn to dial down your reactions a bit on it.

I'm now at 10 hours logged on the GT. I still really like it. If were to replace my current board, I'd buy one if I could afford it - I think the build quality, finish and the lack of hassle lugging it around makes it worth it alone and the manufacturing method I feel is game changing for those willing to embrace it.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on January 10, 2019, 12:32:10 PM
Shame they donít make one I could actually use. It sounds like Iíd paddle about one mile on it in flat water, and then collapse in a heap!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 10, 2019, 01:28:02 PM
Shame they donít make one I could actually use. It sounds like Iíd paddle about one mile on it in flat water, and then collapse in a heap!

I got told that the wider Signature 2.0 24.75 is much more forgiving than the GT 23.5. I'll let you know on that one.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on January 10, 2019, 05:06:30 PM
Shame they donít make one I could actually use. It sounds like Iíd paddle about one mile on it in flat water, and then collapse in a heap!

I got told that the wider Signature 2.0 24.75 is much more forgiving than the GT 23.5. I'll let you know on that one.
Iím not interested in dugouts. Itís not obvious to me looking at the Signature vs. the GT why the Signature would be noticeably more stable than the GT, excepting the dugout. So Iíll be interested to hear your impressions.

These boards are a little low volume for you, arenít they? Maybe thatís why you are finding it twitchy?

A GT at 24.75 would interest me. But it doesnít exist, sadly. However I think Iíve probably decided to go the custom route anyway. In the same way that a custom suit fits in a way that no off-the-peg can, so it is with SUPs. Maybe Nelo will expand their range if these ones prove profitable. If they are properly ding resistant they could pay for themselves in saved repairs, if you are keen racer :) However the warnings about the need to ďbabyĒ the boards on their website makes me think that perhaps they arenít that durable. Just light. Durable is more important to me than light (within reason). You canít race, train or explore if your board is being repaired.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 11, 2019, 03:43:32 AM
1) These boards are a little low volume for you, arenít they? Maybe thatís why you are finding it twitchy?

2) A GT at 24.75 would interest me. But it doesnít exist, sadly. However I think Iíve probably decided to go the custom route anyway. In the same way that a custom suit fits in a way that no off-the-peg can, so it is with SUPs. Maybe Nelo will expand their range if these ones prove profitable. If they are properly ding resistant they could pay for themselves in saved repairs, if you are keen racer :)

3) However the warnings about the need to ďbabyĒ the boards on their website makes me think that perhaps they arenít that durable.
1) The GT is 308 litres and the Signature 2.0 is now beefed up to 296 litres which are fine. I've completed quite a lot of training sessions and time trials on it now - even if it were sup-optimal volume, its still very fast for me. However, the heaviest water conditions I've been out in so far are conventional harbour chop and the odd boat wake.

2) I was surprised they didn't launch a wider one first. My review is going to say the same as I share your opinion. If this had been around 24.5, I'd probably have bought one on the spot.

3) I know what you mean. All craft manufacturers say the same in one form or another. If I were to describe the build quality to anyone, it's the same as a top brand surf ski or K1. Very well finished and considerably more robust than any current SUP board on the market that I've seen. Comparing this to foam cores is night and day - it really is.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: mr_proper on January 14, 2019, 11:16:56 AM
Bruno Hasulyo Leaves Starboard and Joins New Team LIGHTCORP
https://www.totalsup.com/news/bruno-hasulyo-lightcorp/?fbclid=IwAR118QtkKRe4LYwqg88xvJ4DqOD_awUGXiCHIieAHOoJK4exRGSpCobzeJ8
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 14, 2019, 11:52:46 AM
Bruno Hasulyo Leaves Starboard and Joins New Team LIGHTCORP
https://www.totalsup.com/news/bruno-hasulyo-lightcorp/?fbclid=IwAR118QtkKRe4LYwqg88xvJ4DqOD_awUGXiCHIieAHOoJK4exRGSpCobzeJ8

That's huge news. I wonder if this is the point where more scrutiny is placed on hollowboard technology.

As for Braca paddles, I've just been loaned one of those to test. Good timing methinks.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: JEG on January 14, 2019, 12:40:47 PM
interesting news, can't wait to see the Bruno & the boards in action!
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on January 14, 2019, 12:49:03 PM
interesting news, can't wait to see the Bruno & the boards in action!
Yes, this should shake things up a bit.

Not so sure about his new paddle sponsor - it seems like maybe they have only one model, the Brača Stand Up Kahana, which looks underwhelming. Letís see...
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 14, 2019, 01:01:41 PM
interesting news, can't wait to see the Bruno & the boards in action!
Yes, this should shake things up a bit.

Not so sure about his new paddle sponsor - it seems like maybe they have only one model, the Brača Stand Up Kahana, which looks underwhelming. Letís see...
The European paddle/board equipment connection is quite a switch and very strong. Frankly I'm surprised they had the budget for him.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on January 14, 2019, 01:16:18 PM
Bruno says ďEvery year my two trainers can improve my performance by 10-15%Ē. Ah, bless him. In a couple of years heíll be so fast that heís lapping himself.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on January 14, 2019, 01:25:40 PM
And, the article Iím reading quotes as follows: ďThis year I will be following a Biodiversified Potty-Training Method made by SHITA (Strong He-Man In The Ass) Performance Academy.

I wish him the best of luck. It sounds like an interesting training regimen.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Luc Benac on January 14, 2019, 03:07:05 PM
How is this going to work with the two twins working together to bring themselves and their sponsor to the podium?
It is interesting that they might accept to loose this advantage by serving two masters.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on January 15, 2019, 12:32:32 AM
I can totally vouch that the Signature 2.0 isn't for lighter paddler - it's first and foremost designed for heavier paddlers. Currently, the board is getting on one of the three top podiums in Germany, and doing so consistently; the paddlers in question are in the 80 kilos range.

This is great news for Bruno. I also think that getting accomplished International paddlers onboard is really key (at least from a marketing stand point of view). I'd say Congrats in a hurry!!!

In the photo, you can see that we are dealing with agressive paddlers - and I again think that this is what the Nelo boards need.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-r4Vg4LQ/2/XL/i-r4Vg4LQ-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-May-21-Euro-Tour-BEACH/i-r4Vg4LQ/A)

Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 15, 2019, 01:24:41 AM
Bruno says ďEvery year my two trainers can improve my performance by 10-15%Ē. Ah, bless him. In a couple of years heíll be so fast that heís lapping himself.

He seems like a nice guy but I called them out on their resistance-based fin training device once (The 'Push' fin) which they claimed would increase your endurance if you used it. I said that by increasing the resistance only changes the speed of the board and that you'll only increase the physiological power of the paddler if they tried to keep the board moving at the same speed (or greater) as they were when using this resistance fin (thereby merely training with greater intensity as a means to get improvement - nothing new there and nothing to do with the fin). They wouldn't have it. It may be a language translation issue but their presentation is riddled with many errors or fraudulent claims. All it is was a tidier alternative to towing tennis balls or buckets (that many of us in rowing, K1 and C1 have been doing for decades). Their product does do this in a much neater and cleaner way and is a nice product but the accompanying text intentionally over-complicates it and makes it read like they have discovered something that nobody knew about (note: the text has been rewritten recently).

They are awesome athletes - no doubt - but I'd be very cautious at anything beyond that.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 15, 2019, 01:55:31 AM
Bruno says ďEvery year my two trainers can improve my performance by 10-15%Ē. Ah, bless him. In a couple of years heíll be so fast that heís lapping himself.
Isn't he one of the two trainers himself though ?! Therefore he's talking about himself in the third person ?  ;D

10-15% in a year is huge. I don't know how they are quantifying that but I've only seen improvements (in terms of power output) in cycling or running to that kind of level by those who are new to a sport or were chronically overtrained before. 15% as a paddler (in terms of steady-state speed or heart rate reduction for effort) would turn me from the odd small local race winner to high international standard overnight..... and that's just for one years improvement.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 15, 2019, 01:57:48 AM
How is this going to work with the two twins working together to bring themselves and their sponsor to the podium?
It is interesting that they might accept to loose this advantage by serving two masters.

I think the only real issue for this will the 11 cities. That's going to be interesting but paddlers working together for mutual advantage in races is nothing new and 'blood is thicker than water' as they say. I suspect nothing will change and that they'll use the time trials to separate themselves and work together for the rest.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on January 15, 2019, 02:36:32 AM
Bruno says ďEvery year my two trainers can improve my performance by 10-15%Ē. Ah, bless him. In a couple of years heíll be so fast that heís lapping himself.

He seems like a nice guy but I called them out on their resistance-based fin training device once (The 'Push' fin) which they claimed would increase your endurance if you used it. I said that by increasing the resistance only changes the speed of the board and that you'll only increase the physiological power of the paddler if they tried to keep the board moving at the same speed (or greater) as they were when using this resistance fin (thereby merely training with greater intensity as a means to get improvement - nothing new there and nothing to do with the fin). They wouldn't have it. It may be a language translation issue but their presentation is riddled with many errors or fraudulent claims. All it is was a tidier alternative to towing tennis balls or buckets (that many of us in rowing, K1 and C1 have been doing for decades). Their product does do this in a much neater and cleaner way and is a nice product but the accompanying text intentionally over-complicates it and makes it read like they have discovered something that nobody knew about (note: the text has been rewritten recently).

They are awesome athletes - no doubt - but I'd be very cautious at anything beyond that.
Quite. Hence the post I followed up with. 10-15% improvement a year is a ridiculous claim if you are already an elite athlete. Itís nice to see thatís heís learnt something from Starboard though - maybe the 15% comes from resistance training with porpoises - the SHITA academy will teach you how to impart energy to the water and then harnesss it back twofold thus enabling you to actually leap across the top of the water like a flying fish.

Iím sorry. I have a low tolerance to BS marketing. Bruno is a superb athlete and it is amazing to see him represent Nelo/Lightcorp. It will really put them on the map with the SUP community. But he needs to learn the dividing line between marketing and outright lying.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 15, 2019, 12:05:04 PM
Quite. Hence the post I followed up with. 10-15% improvement a year is a ridiculous claim if you are already an elite athlete.

Cripes, you wouldn't even get that kind of lift with performance enhancing drugs let alone a one off boost by 10% in training of a well-trained athlete. The problem is, it only takes one bad anecdote like that and then you doubt the whole thing.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: JEG on January 15, 2019, 01:21:58 PM
Quite. Hence the post I followed up with. 10-15% improvement a year is a ridiculous claim if you are already an elite athlete.

Cripes, you wouldn't even get that kind of lift with performance enhancing drugs let alone a one off boost by 10% in training of a well-trained athlete. The problem is, it only takes one bad anecdote like that and then you doubt the whole thing.

maybe he's found a super drug whatever that maybe? I heard performance-enhancing drugs can boost your ego. I wonder when will the SUP racing authority do drug tests from pro to club level as I'm seeing SUP athletes looking a bit like the cycling community drug issues.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on January 15, 2019, 10:50:28 PM
Having met the lad, I can tell you that he's a young athlete, full of energy, driven to excel and always looking to better himself through extensive but appropriate training for him. He's super fun to be around, and more goal-oriented than most people I know. I could only hope that top athletes wouldn't do drugs, but reality may very well surprise us all.

The focus here is that I welcome the change, and very glad to see someone like Bruno veer towards Nelo / Lightcorp / Braca Sports.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-fn8trHm/2/X2/i-fn8trHm-X2.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-May-21-Euro-Tour-BEACH/i-fn8trHm/A)
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 15, 2019, 11:47:27 PM

maybe he's found a super drug whatever that maybe? I heard performance-enhancing drugs can boost your ego. I wonder when will the SUP racing authority do drug tests from pro to club level as I'm seeing SUP athletes looking a bit like the cycling community drug issues.

Cycling is no worse than other sport. It has a bad rep but that's as its comparably so highly tested these days. You want to try sports like rugby or your local gym though....

Anyway, my original flippant comment was in reference to a 10% performance lift being larger than that of a PED - not a discussion about who could be using them. I don't think we shouldn't go down that road on a public forum otherwise it can get borderline slanderous eventually.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on January 16, 2019, 12:30:10 AM
Hate to admit it, but a 10% increase in performance in a year is very do-able. I will say that repeating the process for more than 3 years in a row may be brutal. Technique, physiology, food intake, experience, equipment, strength, and endurance (amongst other things) will greatly contribute - and do not happen overnight (unless your dream about instant gratification).

Strength is the easiest to gain - but can be useless after 45 minutes if you don't have other components lined up - like endurance.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 01:13:22 AM
Hate to admit it, but a 10% increase in performance in a year is very do-able.

Well, to discuss it, how would you quantify a 10% increase in performance ? - V02 max ? (not likely if already well trained and of a certain age), board speed ? (e.g. moving from a cruising speed of 9.5kph to 10.4kph is an unlikely power increase), bodyfat reduction ? (that's possible), functional strength (yes, but that doesn't impact directly on paddling speed wholesale).

They didn't say but I would say a 10-15% increase year on year improvement in any of my examples is unlikely at best and fraudulent at worst.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 16, 2019, 02:43:11 AM
Hate to admit it, but a 10% increase in performance in a year is very do-able.

Well, to discuss it, how would you quantify a 10% increase in performance ? - V02 max ? (not likely if already well trained and of a certain age), board speed ? (e.g. moving from a cruising speed of 9.5kph to 10.4kph is an unlikely power increase), bodyfat reduction ? (that's possible), functional strength (yes, but that doesn't impact directly on paddling speed wholesale).

They didn't say but I would say a 10-15% increase year on year improvement in any of my examples is unlikely at best and fraudulent at worst.

If the context is SUP racing, performance is measured by race times, which would make it obviously BS.
Maybe endurance - able to maintain a given speed for longer - but it seems like that would also translate to race times and is BS.
Or maybe it's of a more personal nature (and probably still BS  ;D ).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: singingdog on January 16, 2019, 04:29:15 AM
Hate to admit it, but a 10% increase in performance in a year is very do-able.

Hmmm, maybe for someone just getting started in endurance sports. But once you get into relatively good shape, an increase of 10% over more than 1 or 2 years probably means you weren't in that good of shape to begin with. A dedicated, nonprofessional marathoner would be very happy to run 2:30. If they went from that time to 2:15, then 2:03 then 1:50 at the end of 3 years!?!?

In any sport where it can be measured, 200 watts is an admirable output over 3-4 hours. Thinking that you could push that to 220 then 242, then finally to 268 in 3 years? I know competitive cyclists that would sell their soul for that kind of increase.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on January 16, 2019, 04:41:23 AM
Hate to admit it, but a 10% increase in performance in a year is very do-able.

Well, to discuss it, how would you quantify a 10% increase in performance ? - V02 max ? (not likely if already well trained and of a certain age), board speed ? (e.g. moving from a cruising speed of 9.5kph to 10.4kph is an unlikely power increase), bodyfat reduction ? (that's possible), functional strength (yes, but that doesn't impact directly on paddling speed wholesale).

They didn't say but I would say a 10-15% increase year on year improvement in any of my examples is unlikely at best and fraudulent at worst.
Yes. Improvements of that size are certainly possible if you are considering the year-long improvement in a very unfit person who starts (perhaps for the first time) a well-directed fitness, technique, and nutrition program. In fact, you could get improvements that are even larger, in that person. But if you are already a world-class, adult, elite, highly trained, professional athlete like Bruno then improvements of that size are pure fantasy.

Itís always 10%, isnít it? In the first few years of SUP, several brands claimed each year that their new boards were 10% faster than last years. The figure was always ď10%Ē. Of course, they werenít, and after getting roundly criticised on forums like this, the brands stopped making such silly claims. Maybe Bruno is too new to the field to remember these lessons. Let your results do the talking, Bruno, and drop the BS. Your wonderful new sponsors will not thank you for making marketing claims that canít be supported. Itís not a good long-term marketing strategy.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 05:09:09 AM
In any sport where it can be measured, 200 watts is an admirable output over 3-4 hours. Thinking that you could push that to 220 then 242, then finally to 268 in 3 years? I know competitive cyclists that would sell their soul for that kind of increase.

I agree. I put out circa 350 watts for a 10 mile time trial. The best increase in performance I've ever gained annually (over 16 race seasons) is around 5%. I do find it easier to maintain fitness now and I can get back to my best level quite quickly but once you're past 40 and you allow that its a fight with your slowing metabolism and a fading VO2 max, the best you can hope for is that your knowledge is as cutting edge as it can get and that you can hold onto what you have.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 05:17:39 AM
Yes. Improvements of that size are certainly possible if you are considering the year-long improvement in a very unfit person who starts (perhaps for the first time) a well-directed fitness, technique, and nutrition program. In fact, you could get improvements that are even larger, in that person. But if you are already a world-class, adult, elite, highly trained, professional athlete like Bruno then improvements of that size are pure fantasy.

A 10% swing from off-season to peak certainly is very possible. That's quite common but you can lose a lot of your race season getting that corrected. I also read a recommendation in the book 'Racing Weight' by Matt Fitzgerald (a helpful book I'd recommend that I used to help guide my weight loss from 95kg down to 88.5kg two years ago.) that suggested that elite athletes are ok to let their weight increase by 10% in the off-season. Former Tour de France winner Jan Ullrich was renowned for liking the cakes a little too much in the winter months and would have to take quite extreme measures to hit the right weight by July.
Anyway, I'm getting off topic - yep I agree with you, it's fantasy but if he knows something I don't, I (and most of the sporting world) would be happy to listen.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 05:28:43 AM
Just to bring us back on topic, I'm racing the GT this weekend at a local time trial series before I hand it back next week (after I do a review video) and have now logged 12-15 total hours on it. The weather hasn't produced the range of water states I was hoping for but I have set hell of lot of training PB's with it on flatwater and light chop with it. I'm still trying to get used to its lack of weight and inertia.......

I'm hoping to be lent the Signature 2.0 24.75 next.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on January 16, 2019, 07:49:40 AM
Just to bring us back on topic, I'm racing the GT this weekend at a local time trial series before I hand it back next week (after I do a review video) and have now logged 12-15 total hours on it. The weather hasn't produced the range of water states I was hoping for but I have set hell of lot of training PB's with it on flatwater and light chop with it. I'm still trying to get used to its lack of weight and inertia.......

I'm hoping to be lent the Signature 2.0 24.75 next.
What is it like upwind (say, 20 knots) in 1ft chop?
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 09:00:58 AM
Just to bring us back on topic, I'm racing the GT this weekend at a local time trial series before I hand it back next week (after I do a review video) and have now logged 12-15 total hours on it. The weather hasn't produced the range of water states I was hoping for but I have set hell of lot of training PB's with it on flatwater and light chop with it. I'm still trying to get used to its lack of weight and inertia.......

I'm hoping to be lent the Signature 2.0 24.75 next.
What is it like upwind (say, 20 knots) in 1ft chop?

Really good and I've done a fair bit of that. The only issue is you find that its so light, it doesn't carry a lot of momentum so you have to modify your paddling stroke to be quite short and with a high rate. I find the nose design itself has a similar light splash feel as my 2017 Naish Maliko. The only thing I would say is that due to the hollow nature, any footwork feels, well, a bit odd. Partly as every movement resonates through the board like knocking on a guitar and you don't feel as physically connected as you do on a solid board (this is a bit subjective on my part though).
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on January 16, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Yeah, some downwind guys decide that they donít like the noise and dynamics of a hollow board, even though there are obvious advantages to the construction.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 01:12:55 PM
Yeah, some downwind guys decide that they donít like the noise and dynamics of a hollow board, even though there are obvious advantages to the construction.

I wonder what board Bruno is going to use because I would argue he's going to want something narrower than their current range for flatwater stuff.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on January 17, 2019, 02:00:10 AM
Since the Signature 2.0 is slightly faster than the GT on flat water, I would assume that Bruno would take the 2.0 in a 14x23. With his power, low body fat, and stamina, he should do very well on it.

We have to remember that boards like the SB 14x21.5 have a lot more water friction going on their underside (for added stability) and that the Signature 14x23 is made of a hull with the exact opposite characteristics: nicely rounded hull. Either way, the first race with Bruno will be one to watch - glued to your favorite monitor.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: burchas on January 17, 2019, 05:50:25 AM
With his power, low body fat, and stamina, he should do very well on it.

He'd do well on a skimboard or pretty much anything else for that matter but that's not the point.

From the looks of it, he has a smaller frame than yours Photo, 135 if I had to guess. Having close knowledge of this board you'd know
that it doesn't play to your strength. Yes, he's much stronger and skilled but you'd have to think it puts him in immediate disadvantage,
especially on flat water where bigger stronger paddlers can jump on a 21" board no problem. Should be interesting.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on January 17, 2019, 07:50:48 AM
I am about 130 pounds, but canít compare with Bruno. Aside from his strength, heís around 173 pounds, with an amazing reach (long arms).

With your comparison, I am more a skim board kind of guy, and heís more like a paddling machine ready to be FREED -
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: ukgm on January 18, 2019, 12:28:48 AM
With his power, low body fat, and stamina, he should do very well on it.

He'd do well on a skimboard or pretty much anything else for that matter but that's not the point.

From the looks of it, he has a smaller frame than yours Photo, 135 if I had to guess. Having close knowledge of this board you'd know
that it doesn't play to your strength. Yes, he's much stronger and skilled but you'd have to think it puts him in immediate disadvantage,
especially on flat water where bigger stronger paddlers can jump on a 21" board no problem. Should be interesting.

I agree. With the GT at circa 297 and the Signature over 300, the volumes are ideal for me but must surely be too high for someone of Bruno's slight build.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: Area 10 on January 18, 2019, 03:46:50 AM
Well, we might see him on a custom 21Ē wide board, presumably. Anything that is right for ukgm will be a boat for Bruno.
Title: Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
Post by: photofr on January 18, 2019, 07:59:18 PM
With his power, low body fat, and stamina, he should do very well on it.

He'd do well on a skimboard or pretty much anything else for that matter but that's not the point.

From the looks of it, he has a smaller frame than yours Photo, 135 if I had to guess. Having close knowledge of this board you'd know
that it doesn't play to your strength. Yes, he's much stronger and skilled but you'd have to think it puts him in immediate disadvantage,
especially on flat water where bigger stronger paddlers can jump on a 21" board no problem. Should be interesting.

I agree. With the GT at circa 297 and the Signature over 300, the volumes are ideal for me but must surely be too high for someone of Bruno's slight build.

@ UKGM:
I am still unsure as to how you guys come up with the fact that Bruno is a featherweight. In real life, he's like 173 pounds (a hair under 80 kilos).

The Signature 2.0 board is better geared for someone above 65 kilos (but you guys are probably reading 95 kilo riders)  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\