Post by: SG50SUP on May 16, 2017, 05:14:51 AM
Signature race 14 x 23" and 14x 24.75
Stripe V2 and Matchbox paintjob. Real eye candy.
What do you think?
http://www.light-sup.com/light-signature-race.html
Post by: PonoBill on May 16, 2017, 07:17:40 AM
Post by: supnorte on May 16, 2017, 09:35:53 AM
Post by: LaPerouseBay on May 16, 2017, 10:15:58 AM
Actually I was talking with Nelo's CEO yesterday at the office (Nelo is really close from our SUP center) and he told me that they were now producing boards for Light Corp. I saw some photos of the board and it lokks really good for flatwater, but I haven't tried it or seen it live.
Very cool. Was that Oscar or Nelo himself? That company is amazing. Big factory, amazing technology in those ICF sprint kayaks. Nelo rules the market. Spectacular factory in Portugal. Here's the man himself and his CNC whacking out an 11 meter (36 foot) prototype.
K4's are faster than the big 6 man rowing sculls. Amazing boats.
https://youtu.be/_7WEvQRtPC0?t=2m44s
They did this for an April fool's joke. Look how tiny these kayaks are. HM was just asking me about Olympic K-1's. They are 1000 times more tippy than elite skis. Olympians in K-1 and sprint canoes (Jim Terrell) are exceptional athletes
https://youtu.be/yZFKNMbPQn4
Post by: LaPerouseBay on May 16, 2017, 10:32:09 AM
/
English is not the first language of whoever wrote the website. They'd be wise to hire an editor.
/
I don't think Nelo cares. They make incredible skis but don't market them in the USA. Those boards are probably very light and fast.
https://youtu.be/0dGU82PsI4A
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2017, 10:43:49 AM
They have launched their 2 flagship flatwater boards.
Signature race 14 x 23" and 14x 24.75
Stripe V2 and Matchbox paintjob. Real eye candy.
What do you think?
http://www.light-sup.com/light-signature-race.html
Love it. And 296l for the 24.75 version ? Hello.
Post by: supnorte on May 16, 2017, 01:33:45 PM
Post by: mr_proper on May 16, 2017, 01:36:29 PM
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2017, 03:19:02 PM
The Signature Race in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqTY_-HJWQk
Primary stability looks low.
Post by: LaPerouseBay on May 16, 2017, 03:55:41 PM
It was Andr Santos. Oscar moved here a while ago and he's been doing amazing downwinds on a surfski (and he broke a few of his personal records). We have an amazing coast for downwinders in Northern Portugal!
Thanks, Always glad to hear about the big O. As for breaking personal records, well, that's just plain scary. The big race is the 30th. He can do it for the 13th time if the wind is big enough - at age 52. What a beast. Fingers crossed he flies in for a clinic while he's here. He's looking trim! I hear he's cutting back on the booze! Legendary party animal. Crazy big, strong human being. He was 275 back in the day, now he looks like a skinny teenager. That's discipline.
Indeed, Portugal/Spain downwind is freaky powerful. I love those Tariffa videos.
If Nelo can grab Oscar, they should snag Anabelle Anderson too. She will tear it up on that new board.
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2017, 11:49:35 PM
Actually I was talking with Nelo's CEO yesterday at the office (Nelo is really close from our SUP center) and he told me that they were now producing boards for Light Corp. I saw some photos of the board and it lokks really good for flatwater, but I haven't tried it or seen it live.
The problem is they don't seem to be aware of existing market expectations. e.g. there are no details on tail width, images of the bottom, discussion about how stability is provided, drainage or where the volume is distributed.
I raced a board using a similar method of construction back in 2015 which was very fast. (http://horizonsup.com/#farr). I was offered a sponsorship deal but only turned it down as I felt the boards method of construction wouldn't have the day to day robustness I would require. For a 26.5 though it was noted as being silent when moving through the water but struggled a little with cross chop. I wonder if Nelo are also aware of the differences between SUP racing and Canoe/Kayak racing.....
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2017, 12:17:04 AM
I'd be interested to see that rider do a buoy turn on that board.
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 12:26:31 AM
The board in that video looks to have too much roll, to me. I'm not sure about the trim either. It looks like a handful. But of course it might equally be the rider.
I'd be interested to see that rider do a buoy turn on that board.
If you look on youtube there are three videos that are part of the same sequence of a paddler catching and then passing someone in front (riding a 2017 flatwater Javelin). It was this that like you, raised concerns about the lack of primary stability or as you point out, excessive roll. The problem with Nelo is that they know a lot about construction and a lot about being in a straight line and going fast. However, that's not SUP racing and will be less so as numbers increase and bunch racing becomes more prevalent.
If you look on their website blog page, you'll see more photo's of it in use doing buoy turns, etc.
Post by: SG50SUP on May 17, 2017, 12:29:10 AM
I wonder if Nelo are also aware of the differences between SUP racing and Canoe/Kayak racing.....Exactly the point. They'd be introducing the board at the Lost Mills later. Curious if race committee will allow the board into the race / sprint category seeing that its of completely different specs than ordinary sup boards. There's already an argument in ISA / APP on SB's Ace and this would mess it up further in taking sup to the Olympics. The bottom is round. No flat bottom. The rider would be bracing water during the start. And you'd still have problem standing at cruising speed. Sounds familiar?
Would be interesting to hear what Jimmy Terrel have to say about this design. I'm certain he'd be confused. A full circle for him. An evolved standing C1. Now the blades can get bigger. Question lingers.
SUPmission
🤙🏽
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 12:44:48 AM
I wonder if Nelo are also aware of the differences between SUP racing and Canoe/Kayak racing.....Exactly the point. They'd be introducing the board at the Lost Mills later. Curious if race committee will allow the board into the race / sprint category seeing that its of completely different specs than ordinary sup boards. There's already an argument in ISA / APP on SB's Ace and this would mess it up further in taking sup to the Olympics. The bottom is round. No flat bottom. The rider would be bracing water during the start. And you'd still have problem standing at cruising speed. Sounds familiar?
Would be interesting to hear what Jimmy Terrel have to say about this design. I'm certain he'd be confused. A full circle for him. An evolved standing C1. Now the blades can get bigger. Question lingers.
SUPmission
That board is fully legal. It doesn't look any more extreme in profile or in width than anything else out there. The construction method is different. I couldn't see whether it had a rounded bottom or not as none of the images are from that angle.
However, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in how the riders are doing with it as both of their team riders are small and former elite world champions/olympian paddlers. Most of us aren't anywhere near that standard and that might be a worry if you see it wobbling around under their own feet.
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2017, 12:47:28 AM
But we will see, I hope. Maybe I'm wrong. I suspect that the feedback from potential riders will be instant. You'd have to persuade one of the top guys to use this. The general trend these days is towards boards that handle well, draft well, and are adaptable, rather than towards ever increasing specialisation.
Incidentally, that Naish looks a bit too low in the water too, and pretty tippy also. I can see now why you don't often see team riders on one.
Post by: mr_proper on May 17, 2017, 01:24:38 AM
http://www.sup-alps-trophy.com/images/sampledata/alpstrophy/pdf/ErgebnisLong_Short_Distance_SUPAlpsTrophy2017_SUPFestivalKaltererSee_14_Mai.pdf
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 01:26:35 AM
Yes. We've been here before. Making a board that is fast in a straight line in flat water is easy. Even I could do it. But making a board that is fast under real world racing conditions, and is also affordable and durable enough is very hard. You HAVE to have feedback from people who actually race, and as we agree, you need to understand how the boards are used. 99.9% of SUP races are not flat water sprints in lanes like sprint canoe.
But we will see, I hope. Maybe I'm wrong. I suspect that the feedback from potential riders will be instant. You'd have to persuade one of the top guys to use this. The general trend these days is towards boards that handle well, draft well, and are adaptable, rather than towards ever increasing specialisation.
Incidentally, that Naish looks a bit too low in the water too, and pretty tippy also. I can see now why you don't often see team riders on one.
[team ride bias in play here] The Naish is low in volume and profile so always looks deceptively low in the water. The rumours I heard was that pretty much most team riders (including all of us (bar 2) in the UK) have opted for the Maliko for most races as we've found it pretty much nearly as fast as the Javelin but the Maliko is more versatile. Endurance supremo Jo Hamilton Vale I know likes the Javelin 14x24 as the low volume suits her very well. Our other team paddler has been going well on his 14x26 but I personally think it would be a faster board for more paddlers if they added some more volume to the tail.
As for the Nelo, we should know more soon as they are apparently going to have riders on them at the Lost Mills.
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2017, 02:16:55 AM
How many truly flatwater world ranking events are there? There's the Lost Mills and 11 cities etc in Europe, but it would be interesting to know what proportion of the bigger events worldwide are true flat water ones.
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 03:09:22 AM
That will be interesting. I hope they do well. New brands tend to bring some new idea or version to the table that we can all learn from.
How many truly flatwater world ranking events are there? There's the Lost Mills and 11 cities etc in Europe, but it would be interesting to know what proportion of the bigger events worldwide are true flat water ones.
I would argue that the increasing rise of large number draft trains makes even those type of events truly 'flatwater'. If you're going to see clear water or gaps - great. If not, a pure flatwater board might not be always the best option. Its a bit like the difference in road cycling between riders selecting general road bikes or using aero road bikes instead. You'll often see breakaway specialists or sprinters using the aero road bikes but for those in the pack or on domestique duties, comfort, handling or other factors may well be more important.
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 08:32:49 AM
Post by: atlanticsup on May 17, 2017, 11:10:28 AM
The Chalupsky/Nelo Surfski focus has been interesting and I think they will grow from strength to strength in this regard where speed in all conditions is a requirement - I have not been on their surfski's yet but they look like they will succeed and have brought some nice innovations that are practical.
I SUP (downwind and wannabe surfer) and surfski and can't wait for the surfski construction to find its way to SUP. Surfskiers will complain about carbon boards being fragile, but they have no idea how tough the construction is compared to the epoxy/foam SUP construction. An 18-19ft ski weighs 10kg in carbon, and I suspect even with extra internals for the deck a 14ft SUP would be <10kg and stronger than the normal epoxy/foam (can't even compare it to carbon epoxy construction).
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 12:41:31 PM
I'm hoping it succeeds. Nelo are a good company and if they design a K1 in a certain way, it is because it makes sense to.
The Chalupsky/Nelo Surfski focus has been interesting and I think they will grow from strength to strength in this regard where speed in all conditions is a requirement - I have not been on their surfski's yet but they look like they will succeed and have brought some nice innovations that are practical.
I SUP (downwind and wannabe surfer) and surfski and can't wait for the surfski construction to find its way to SUP. Surfskiers will complain about carbon boards being fragile, but they have no idea how tough the construction is compared to the epoxy/foam SUP construction. An 18-19ft ski weighs 10kg in carbon, and I suspect even with extra internals for the deck a 14ft SUP would be <10kg and stronger than the normal epoxy/foam (can't even compare it to carbon epoxy construction).
Bear in mind, its not actually Nelo. They designed it and built on behalf of the company that owns it and wants to get it out there.
Post by: Eagle on May 17, 2017, 12:56:07 PM
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 02:44:30 PM
As discussed before -> the Signature boards look fast but depend on the pilot. Good balance will be important for good speed in ocean conditions. The Strike and SB Race were a step too tippy - so will be interesting to see how these fare. Think SUP also still have surfski inspired boards -> but are wider due to their rounded bottom profiles. Other boat builders have introduced boat inspired designs with very low drag -> but have not gained much traction. My guess is that the low dropped standing area is key -> and will be interesting to see how these boards compare to the race proven 23 and 21.5 Sprint shapes. The 23 Signature should go ok on flat though.
They sent me back a really nice and detailed email this evening telling me more about the design. It's a rounded rail and mildly convex bottom. It sounds fast but I wonder if it's too rolling for most of us. Looks amazing and being out of Nelo's factory, it's bound to be well made.
Post by: SG50SUP on May 17, 2017, 09:04:07 PM
They sent me back a really nice and detailed email this evening telling me more about the design. It's a rounded rail and mildly convex bottom. It sounds fast but I wonder if it's too rolling for most of us. Looks amazing and being out of Nelo's factory, it's bound to be well made.Rider in video is a sup racer and avid downwinder. Not an Olympic paddler. He also sells the board in his store at www.supshop24-7.com
Told you its a dug out canoe with low recessed deck. But did they mention about weight? I think it might be something ridiculous if it's hollow.
Only a matter of time that regulations on minimum weight will be implemented on 14'0 flatwater boards as production technique improves. 21'5 inch is as skinny as it gets for now.
If they are in Lost Mills for the 200m time trial with Olympiads, then it gets interesting to see it contend against new Mistral, SIC, AquaInc and Sprint. Heck I'd wanna see them side by side! They've already recorded under 60 sec timing for 200m on this board. Maybe the 53.12 sec record from Connor might not hold for long? Only time will tell.
SUPmission
🤙🏽
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2017, 11:57:14 PM
They sent me back a really nice and detailed email this evening telling me more about the design. It's a rounded rail and mildly convex bottom. It sounds fast but I wonder if it's too rolling for most of us. Looks amazing and being out of Nelo's factory, it's bound to be well made.Rider in video is a sup racer and avid downwinder. Not an Olympic paddler. He also sells the board in his store at www.supshop24-7.com
Told you its a dug out canoe with low recessed deck. But did they mention about weight? I think it might be something ridiculous if it's hollow.
Only a matter of time that regulations on minimum weight will be implemented on 14'0 flatwater boards as production technique improves. 21'5 inch is as skinny as it gets for now.
If they are in Lost Mills for the 200m time trial with Olympiads, then it gets interesting to see it contend against new Mistral, SIC, AquaInc and Sprint. Heck I'd wanna see them side by side! They've already recorded under 60 sec timing for 200m on this board. Maybe the 53.12 sec record from Connor might not hold for long? Only time will tell.
SUPmission
There won't be a minimum weight restriction. We don't really have an active governing body as it is to be interested and if the ISA is in charge nothing will change. You'd expect width restrictions first. If the canoe organisation was in charge internationally (as it is at the Lost Mills) it might be different. The weight is low but seems to have been conservatively set at 10kg but they said they could easily go lighter. Durability should be excellent.
I've been given the chance to demo one if I can get to the British leg of the Euro tour but that's sadly looking unlikely at the moment for me. Either way, even in the 24.75 wider width, that's probably too much board balancing for the likes of me. In my view it would be mega fast in the right hands but they'll need to get a world class paddler on board and it's an elitist design.
Post by: Eagle on May 20, 2017, 06:02:05 PM
Sounds tippy if compared to the no hard edges 2015 Race 25 with a big single concave. Rounded rail with a convex bottom should roll vs plant and go with a flatter design. Would expect that Signature to require a pilot with good balance even with the dropped standing area. Would be nice to try though. The 24.5 might be doable -> but the 23 Hmmm?!?
Post by: bernhardd on May 21, 2017, 01:31:37 AM
Good visibility of the drainingholes.
Interesting Design. For me Kind of too expensive.
Post by: Area 10 on May 21, 2017, 08:59:23 AM
Post by: TallDude on May 21, 2017, 09:25:46 AM
Post by: blackeye on May 21, 2017, 09:33:04 AM
Wow, yes - $4000+ dollars US (around 3100 GBP) in Europe...
The Think XOR with similar construction is on sale at CAD 2800 (~USD 2100).
http://www.deepcoveoutdoors.com/product/think-xor/
Post by: Area 10 on May 21, 2017, 10:17:27 AM
But well worth it with the on-board computer and built-in winning assist.Yeah, sadly the pics on the shop website show no computer, just a manufacturing plate. The tail doesn't look very steady when the paddlers are pressing on in the videos but maybe that's just a trick of the camera because of the roll.
I'd certainly like to try one though. Looks fast in the right hands. Unfortunately that's not an opportunity I'm going to get, I suspect. Can't go spending that kind of money with no experience of the brand or model.
Would be fascinating to see a different construction for once. That might be worth paying a premium for, depending on how light + durable it is.
Post by: Eagle on May 21, 2017, 10:48:57 AM
He did tell me that he has no intentions of making any narrower hollow SUP boards. So the Signature is the only other surfski brand board option with a narrower faster outline. The XOR 28 was about as stable as the AS25. So quite stable. Oddly my preference of the 2 would be the wider XOR for distance. The board just felt smoother and efficient through the water. In that way the Signature 24.5 would probs feel similar with its similar mild convex underbody. No doubt that board has low drag as well. With its very low dropped standing position -> the 24.5 might be just stable enough to allow good power to be put down constant for the average joe.
With the SB Race 25 -> I could not put down solid power in the limited time I tried it. That board was a major challenge to stand on stationary with no hard edges. Comparatively the AS23 is easy with its hard edges and longitudinal ridges. But with time on that tippy Race 25 would suspect that one would learn to compensate for the roll with TOTW and practice in rough conditions. Like anything - your CNS does adapt surprisingly quick if it has no choice or no other option. ;)
Post by: TallDude on May 21, 2017, 12:21:01 PM
http://www.huki.com/index.php?page=SUP_14_Flat_Conditions
http://www.huki.com/index.php?page=SUP_14_All_Conditions
http://www.huki.com/index.php?page=SUP_Prices
Post by: Eagle on May 21, 2017, 04:09:03 PM
Post by: mrbig on May 21, 2017, 04:32:15 PM
I did purchase an Allison Fin. The death skull has tamed the twitchyness a bit. Also have much less trouble with beam seas (cross chop) than before. #livinginadrysuit..
And now feel ready for a narrower 14' as a result. TOW. 140 miles in an ugly winter..
Post by: SG50SUP on May 21, 2017, 06:55:00 PM
Spotted in the distance race in Sainte-Maxime earlier. Can't make out the paddler. He wasn't drafting anybody at anytime. Speed vs Stability vs Maneuverability in contest..
SUPmission
🤙🏽
Post by: Eagle on May 21, 2017, 07:39:07 PM
Post by: ukgm on May 22, 2017, 12:52:26 AM
Could be difference in design or manufacturing in some way. But the feel of the XOR hollow is extremely solid and maybe even overbuilt vs carbon EPS. Yet still remains quite light -> but not extremely so. Actually the opposite for me is the hollow sound is better on that board with zero creaks. Just feels and sounds hollow and dampened. Maybe has something to do with the extreme deep vee but the water pretty much is silent as you cut thru it. Would def get that XOR if not for our Dom. Just is a nice well built SUP with a very good finish and light enough. Best is that it paddles so efficient and quick. Not splashy and draggy feeling like the cutting boof AS23. And much less flexy than the Dom. The pic of the underside shows clearly how much of an extreme deep vee that board has.
That was very much my experience racing the Farr board. Other people commented that it was completely silent and couldn't hear it coming up from behind. Plus, that type of construction will allow you to push flatwater shapes into ways that foam construction could not handle. However, I do take someone else's point about feeling disconnected - I had the same. It may have been the choice of deck pad but I found you never felt at one with the board. It might have been something to do with vibration/damping qualities or the crafts high level of stiffness.
Post by: Eagle on May 22, 2017, 05:36:30 AM
Post by: mr_proper on September 08, 2017, 05:19:45 AM
At flat conditions it's about 0.1 - 0.5 km/h faster than the Allstar.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/3054b4f965ae6ec6aa25cc9d7242ed18.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/e0bb4e59e2701b0de2b59dce988a365f.jpg)
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/f45541264013621929614105fea369df.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/90713b820a80c2b4c16b346765a770f7.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/c42c435134b3021b8e19c09979e64f48.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/c32d965b06c35b5ef6d5037f30278859.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/c4057d31d7c6f4188c21b6b61831bfb2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/2676e707aa3f456dcaabede2257e1592.jpg)
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Post by: ukgm on September 08, 2017, 05:33:38 AM
I could test the board and did some pictures.
At flat conditions it's about 0.1 - 0.5 km/h faster than the Allstar.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/3054b4f965ae6ec6aa25cc9d7242ed18.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/e0bb4e59e2701b0de2b59dce988a365f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/63f5c75334c2beaa6bc2b27f1fe2abf2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/f45541264013621929614105fea369df.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/90713b820a80c2b4c16b346765a770f7.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/c42c435134b3021b8e19c09979e64f48.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/c32d965b06c35b5ef6d5037f30278859.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/c4057d31d7c6f4188c21b6b61831bfb2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/2676e707aa3f456dcaabede2257e1592.jpg)
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170908/285708ad61ed5a4098e8c68064c2f364.jpg)
It's a lovely looking board but I wouldn't put up with its instability for only a 0.1kph gain over an allstar (what width ?) but I might be intrigued if it were 0.5 !
Post by: mr_proper on September 08, 2017, 08:31:05 AM
LightCorp is 14x24.75
The primary stability is somewhat lower than that of the Allstar.
But the secondary stability is better than expected.
However, I tried the board only in the harbor (21 km) with some wind but hardly waves. A test on the river with current and boat waves is still pending.
I'm not the fastest paddler and my balance could be better (193cm, 93kg) but I think I could learn to master the board.
This was the first session with the LightCorp: https://flow.polar.com/training/analysis/1721574604
Post by: photofr on February 05, 2018, 12:34:11 AM
I'd love to test this board out, but I'd also be willing to get one without trying it. In my mind, here are advantages:
LIGHTER
With my body weight, a heavier craft / board will always greatly penalise me.
REPAIR AWAY
Repairing a hollow surfski or hollow board is super simple. There's no need to be worried about stupid Styrofoam taking on water, or rotting away after the first hole. I'll also be able to use Polyester resin or Epoxy for my repairs (no longer limited to Epoxy)
LASTS LONGER
I have owned Nelo surfskis for years. My paddle has hit my boat 1000x or more. YOU NEED TO SEE my rails: they are virtually unmarked. On the other side of the coin, if I hit my board's rails 5 times during a single session, you'd be likely see FIVE MARKS.
BAN ON STYROFOAM
There is a good reason why we are banning styrofoam in the US - no more cups and coolers made of this stuff is allowed. With hollow boards, we are removing one more ingredient - and a lousy one at that (Styrofoam be gone). Actually, I am a bit surprised that no one is mentioning Styrofoam-be-Gone.
MORE GELCOAT
Hollow boards have the potential to be very light. With hollow boards, we will be able to use more gelcoat and have a board that will last a whole lot longer. That's a whole lot better than using car paint - as many manufacturers try to save weight.
SHAPE
The current Nelo board may be for flat water - and we all know Nelo had a reputation for great FLAT WATER crafts. The last 3 years have proven to me that Nelo has an open mind: they have designed (from the ground up) incredible surfskis that excel in the rougher conditions.
I say it again: I welcome them to bring more boards made from Molds.
Here's a 9.8 kilos ski, complete with rudder, cables, and foot plate.
(and no Styrofoam there)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-Jun-15-Nelo-SURFSKI/i-xjxmxFh/2/f6d5156e/XL/NELO-0002-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560M/i-xjxmxFh/A)
Post by: atlanticsup on February 05, 2018, 03:15:34 AM
My Think Evo (surfski) was close to 10 years (I think) when I got rid of it. Still perfect to use for another 10 years with less scratches than my two year SUP's, and only made fibreglass. Hopefully SUP industry learns as I think you can come up with some amazing designs which are very tough. To me surfski's seem so much better value that smaller SUP's.
Hopefully more to follow from other manufacturers as industry matures and becomes more responsible to the environment
Post by: yugi on February 06, 2018, 11:32:03 AM
Eagle, My Starby race is the same nervous twitchy board that it was when I bought it.
...
Couldn't agree more. You could get used to it but it still would suck.
Post by: photofr on February 13, 2018, 12:58:23 AM
Since the Nelo board is made in Europe, it will have have my custom colors (all blue with two white stripes) and will be built from scratch.
Built Time: currently about 4 weeks wait
Shipping: about 3 days
Total wait: about 5 weeks
I was told that just like surfskis, paddlers can customise colors and design. However, just like surfskis, you gotta watch out for weight. Colours like Red, Orange, Dark Blue, Black (and pretty much all dark gelcoat) will add more weight. In my experience, light blue is VERY LIGHT.
Anyway, pretty exciting stuff.
Post by: Area 10 on February 15, 2018, 01:59:28 AM
Post by: photofr on February 15, 2018, 02:22:18 AM
- about 600 euros
- about 3 months waiting
MODIFICATIONS (to emphasise a few things)
Comparing the two boards based on prices along is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.
- I do not like the 2018 Sprint - not matching my needs
- Finding a 2017 Sprint wasn't so easy
- I want to get away from as much Styrofoam as possible - not possible with a board filled with the stuff
- If Starboard would have been 800 euros less, I still would have gone with the Nelo (because of my personal priorities)
- A 2017 board would have been sitting for nearly a year before I purchased it - and that's not so inviting to me
Post by: Area 10 on February 15, 2018, 05:36:17 PM
I hope that local custom shapers start to eat into the SUP global market because I think that the big brands (and the factory) are essentially colluding to keep SUP prices as high as people will go and still buy the board.
Post by: warmuth on February 15, 2018, 07:01:52 PM
Post by: Luc Benac on February 15, 2018, 07:09:21 PM
Here in Florida just about everyone is switching to a local brand, Flying Fish. Cheaper than pretty much all production boards, well made (my 23 is 19.5 pounds minus fin) and the shape works incredibly well for just about every condition. Its pretty amazing how quickly theyve caught on and have taken a large chunk out of the brand name raceboard sales in this area.
When you think about it. Local knowledge of the local conditions, no freight, direct interaction during the process....it makes so much sense. Maybe shapers should share the market and relocate each one in a region to open a market.
Post by: photofr on February 15, 2018, 09:29:19 PM
Other interesting facts:
We've killed the buzz in cycling - at least a little - when pretty much everyone started manufacturing their bikes in China. Take Cannondale ; "just devastating" and prices were driven high and hard.
Now, take Nelo... and here's some great news:
A 11.5 kilo surfski (still about 3 pounds lighter than most boards out of China) has a starting price of about 2300 euros in Portugal. The same board is about 2800 in France. A quality surfski out of China is currently about 2800 euros, but weights about 16 kilos. If the Made in China surfski is going to weigh 11 or 12 kilos, expect to pay as much as 3600 euros for that surfski.
Now, keep in mind, surfski use much more material than SUP.
Surfskis also use a rudder, a rudder shaft, rudder bar, lines, fittings, and of course a hard plate as well as two pedals. It adds up very quickly. The 14' Nelo SUP isn't fitted with all of this, but still costs about 3300 euros (depending on where you buy it from).
If you removed the middle man from Germany (Lightboard) we should see the exact same board with the exact same construction, made in Europe, ultra light, and ultra durable - for about 1800 (perhaps even 2200 if someone was a little greedy).
Why is this great news?
Because I really think that people are going to be more conscious and buy more locally. I also think that prices are going to drop when SUP builders realise that more people are buying boards.
Anyway, perhaps there's HOPE - because sending the work overseas may not always be the answer, especially when (for the most part) people overseas do not care at all about harming the environment/or not harming it.
Post by: ukgm on February 18, 2018, 10:46:44 AM
I hope that local custom shapers start to eat into the SUP global market because I think that the big brands (and the factory) are essentially colluding to keep SUP prices as high as people will go and still buy the board.
I agree although I suspect its more likely that Starboard and Naish are intentionally stretching the elastic which then allows the slightly smaller firms the justification to do likewise. I doubt its actual collusion. I only know of some limited sales info but I do wonder if the brands can see they are pricing the raceboard market out. Its a small proportion of some brands sales (who can afford it to be) but a much bigger one of others.
Post by: supuk on February 18, 2018, 02:05:36 PM
Unfortunately there are very few surfers people in the sport that will ever see or understand the difference between something that has been skilfully constructed with huge amounts of attention paid to every step of the process and a cheap old nasty board that comes out of cobra or similar factory
people seam happy to through thousand away at a boards every year, perhaps getting a 20% mates rate/team rider/brand ambassador discount from there local shop on the big brand names for it to fall apart in a year or two with a huge fanatical loos and a massive penalty on the environment from the waste in materials and transportation that the boards go through to get to you.
People really need to learn this does not have to be the way and follow in the footsteps of photofr and the few others sadly this will probably never happen in a big way and people will continue to be fobbed off with a load of junk.
Post by: Area 10 on February 18, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
And sadly many local shapers cant afford to put in the R&D that is needed to really perfect a design, especially raceboard designs. We often hear of big brands saying that they have tried eg. 20 different prototypes before a raceboard they got a design they were happy with. Now, no doubt a lot of this is marketing flannel. But if they tried even half that number of prototypes that would be out of the pocket of the local shaper to do. Building 10 prototype boards to just throw away would be a ruinously expensive thing for a local shaper to do.
So theres the problem. The people with the skills and inclination to build a board that weighs much less but is much more durable than todays Cobra factory offerings mostly dont have sufficient financial backing to pay for the R&D necessary to create a distinctive but good design. And they dont have the retailer network to drum up orders for them and give rider feedback from the public.
So its not just the customers fault. There are few genuinely good options out there from local shapers. If there were good options wed buy them.
Post by: Luc Benac on February 18, 2018, 04:06:48 PM
Post by: burchas on February 18, 2018, 04:15:37 PM
I can tell you if you think the price of race boards is going to come down massively over time you are very sadly wrong. prices will continue to rise in general us as the cost of composites and materials increase or they will just continue to cut corners and use cheaper less skilled labour giving you even poorer quality product under the same coat of paint. It is possible to get more for your money with various different manufacturing techniques but this can only happen when designs are not changed every 12mths and high quality molds can be used for longer production runs. If people really want to see progress in sport more people need to support the small company's that have more respect for there workforce and the product they produce but also expect to pay more but in tern get a lot more for the money in forms of quality, construction techniques and more ethical forms of labour.
Unfortunately there are very few surfers people in the sport that will ever see or understand the difference between something that has been skilfully constructed with huge amounts of attention paid to every step of the process and a cheap old nasty board that comes out of cobra or similar factory
people seam happy to through thousand away at a boards every year, perhaps getting a 20% mates rate/team rider/brand ambassador discount from there local shop on the big brand names for it to fall apart in a year or two with a huge fanatical loos and a massive penalty on the environment from the waste in materials and transportation that the boards go through to get to you.
People really need to learn this does not have to be the way and follow in the footsteps of photofr and the few others sadly this will probably never happen in a big way and people will continue to be fobbed off with a load of junk.
So sad but very true!
I still amazes me people spending $3000+ on a "China" made board when they could spend the same amount on a beautiful custom, tailored made for them and have control of every aspect of
the board. One also learns a lot about board design and construction during the process. After 4 custom boards I still believe that.
It's very unfortunate you're not on my side of the pond supuk, I would have loved to have a custom one from you as well. If you'll find a way to make a
a one-off hollow molded comparable to a foam core price wise, I would pull the trigger on that even with the pain involved in shipping it over here.
Post by: burchas on February 18, 2018, 04:24:31 PM
We often hear of big brands saying that they have tried eg. 20 different prototypes before a raceboard they got a design they were happy with. Now, no doubt a lot of this is marketing flannel.
I think they actually do (see Starboard for example) to only thing they forgot to mention is that each year they release one of those prototypes and market it as a new model, good strategy.
In 5 years, after testing 10 different prototypes, and having the public fund it for them they'll actually come out with the really finished product.
Post by: Luc Benac on February 18, 2018, 04:28:53 PM
It's very unfortunate you're not on my side of the pond supuk, I would have loved to have a custom one from you as well.
He should come to Canada first!
Post by: supuk on February 18, 2018, 04:49:28 PM
I can tell you if you think the price of race boards is going to come down massively over time you are very sadly wrong. prices will continue to rise in general us as the cost of composites and materials increase or they will just continue to cut corners and use cheaper less skilled labour giving you even poorer quality product under the same coat of paint. It is possible to get more for your money with various different manufacturing techniques but this can only happen when designs are not changed every 12mths and high quality molds can be used for longer production runs. If people really want to see progress in sport more people need to support the small company's that have more respect for there workforce and the product they produce but also expect to pay more but in tern get a lot more for the money in forms of quality, construction techniques and more ethical forms of labour.
Unfortunately there are very few surfers people in the sport that will ever see or understand the difference between something that has been skilfully constructed with huge amounts of attention paid to every step of the process and a cheap old nasty board that comes out of cobra or similar factory
people seam happy to through thousand away at a boards every year, perhaps getting a 20% mates rate/team rider/brand ambassador discount from there local shop on the big brand names for it to fall apart in a year or two with a huge fanatical loos and a massive penalty on the environment from the waste in materials and transportation that the boards go through to get to you.
People really need to learn this does not have to be the way and follow in the footsteps of photofr and the few others sadly this will probably never happen in a big way and people will continue to be fobbed off with a load of junk.
So sad but very true!
I still amazes me people spending $3000+ on a "China" made board when they could spend the same amount on a beautiful custom, tailored made for them and have control of every aspect of
the board. One also learns a lot about board design and construction during the process. After 4 custom boards I still believe that.
It's very unfortunate you're not on my side of the pond supuk, I would have loved to have a custom one from you as well. If you'll find a way to make a
a one-off hollow molded comparable to a foam core price wise, I would pull the trigger on that even with the pain involved in shipping it over here.
I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality molds made and like I say I just dont think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !
Post by: burchas on February 18, 2018, 05:39:04 PM
I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality molds made and like I say I just dont think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !
Yes, tens of thousands for a single mold is insane. I was hoping that with recent advancements in 3D printing, there would be a way to produce a more affordable molds.
Post by: photofr on February 18, 2018, 11:54:07 PM
Most people think that we need 10-20 prototype boards to come out with ONE GOOD ONE - but that's just not true. Take Naish (back in the days when he was shaping them by hand), take TwoGood Kayaks (where I worked, right next door to Naish - building hollow surfski in the late 80's), take even Nelo today... etc... and you'll notice that since they were all experienced builders, it took them one plug (one prototype) that sometimes was slightly modified once, twice, or three times - AND THAT WAS IT. We were very careful to get it "right" because we would run with it for about 3 to 7 years.
Before the prototype was agreed upon, it was tested by several people, but not even Naish back in the day made 10 or 20 prototypes before releasing a new model.
Surfski today runs for 3 to 5 years - with the same exact Mold. When you want to go faster, you just train harder, train smarter, and work on technique. But your ski lasts - well after that.
RESEARCH
CHINA perhaps wants us to believe that they are building 20 prototypes - that is just not true.
They want us to believe that they are testing new boards extensively - but that's just not true at all - heck, they usually only test their new Open Water boards on dead flat water)
DESIGN
CAD Design "told" shapers to make the boards longer - and to use shape X in order to achieve intended use. Shapers, listen to CAD, and when the board came out 15 or 16 feet long, they simply took it upon themselves to cut off the rear of the board - to make it 12'6.
MARKETING
Then they went out of their way with marketing to tell you (the consumer) that 12'6 was better. Sadly, most people believed manufacturers. Let's be clear: 12'6 boards will benefit companies - not YOU. What is even more sad is that today (2018) you'll find a great many consumers who still believe that 12'6 is BETTER. It's like believing that Volvo is still the safest car in the World, sadly, most people do - because of extensive marketing (very successful marketing in fact).
R&D
If R&D was really present, we'd end up with boards that can be slightly improved from time to time. We would NEVER end up with a total lemon from time to time.
SADLY
SUP manufacturers are however working really hard at finding cheaper materiel (not lighter, stronger or more durable)
HOLLOW BOARDS
First off, not all hollow boards or hollow surfskis are created equally. The good ones will use:
FOAM CORE (aka Sandwich construction)
That a small amount of PVC foam 1/4" usually, that's going to lay between two main layers of cloth. Experience is crucial there, because it has to be laid out using a vacuum system and knowledge on how to curb your foam before placing it in your Mold. The cool thing with foam core is that your ski or board will not sink if it takes on water - AND the materiel will not rot if introduced to Ocean Water. This foam is closed-cell foam.
CLOTH
They can use glass, Kevlar, and/or carbon
RESIN
Epoxy is stronger, but more expensive.
Polyester resin is cheaper, but a little more flex.
Heck, putting it bluntly, let's just say that R&D is not taken into account when 11 years later, we are still building boards out of Styrofoam.
However, perhaps you think that building a plug, and then building a Mold will be lengthy and super expensive?
It isn't - especially with today's tools like CAD (Computer Aid Design) and machines to actually shape a Mold.
You don't want a Mold, but you also don't want the nasty Styrofoam?
Try this... NO WORDS... just look at the design and construction.
It costs you about $500 to make ONE.
It's about 10 kilos, faster than many 14' boards, far more stable, and well: kinda beautiful.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-Jun-16-Marc-Pelloquet/i-ZVpg33f/1/4aa896ae/X2/NELO-0018-X2.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-Jun-16-Marc-Pelloquet/i-ZVpg33f/A)
Post by: supuk on February 19, 2018, 12:49:01 AM
However, perhaps you think that building a plug, and then building a Mold will be lengthy and super expensive?
It isn't - especially with today's tools like CAD (Computer Aid Design) and machines to actually shape a Mold.
I'm sorry but that is not true! as all ways you can build a cheap mold using a board as a plug and then use vinyl ester to lay the mold up which is the cheap option that will probably have a investment cost of 3-5000, I actually did a 12'6 like this may years ago, some were on here I think there was a thread. if you start bringing in cnc's then you immediately have a 50-60 per hour minimum charge for the machining time and around 100 per m2 for tooling board if you get the cheap stuff so your already in to the 8-10,000 area even you can then use vinyl ester again if you just doing wet layups or lo temp stuff however if you want to do it properly in a autoclave at high temp you need to lay the mold up in pre preg high temp carbon so at that point your at the 20,000 mark! I have do a huge amount of research on this and spoke to a number of companies so these are not made up numbers. If it was cheap I would have done it a long time ago!
Post by: photofr on February 19, 2018, 01:34:07 AM
If you want cheap, go with wood and ballistic cloth.
CHEAP AND FAST
Cheap is all very relative. In the late 80's, cheap would have been the equivalent to about $25000 to make one Mold. That's labor and materiel. Today, and with the help of computers and machines, you can expect a surfski Mold for about 15-$30000 - but sales are almost guaranteed if you come up with a 1/2 way descent design that's built well.
What's super positive today is the speed at which we can build a Mold. It used to take us the best part of 9 months, sometimes even 16 months to make a single Mold. Today, two to four weeks and you can have a Mold ready for production.
WAY MORE IMPORTANT
That's why (in my eyes) it's far more important to ensure you have a good design before you place it in production. If the new craft is designed for the middle of the pack paddlers, then it's imperative you get middle-of-the-pack paddlers on that board and provide you with real feedback.
If your "new" board is designed for top notch athletes, you gotta place that board in real life situation (several times over, with a variety of body weights and strength) before placing that board into production.
Sadly, what is happening NOW is just so different. However, with companies like NELO, THINK, and HUKI who have made the leap to Mold constructions, the future seems rather promising - as long as they test their new boards extensively before production.
Post by: ukgm on February 19, 2018, 04:24:55 AM
I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality molds made and like I say I just dont think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !
Yes, tens of thousands for a single mold is insane. I was hoping that with recent advancements in 3D printing, there would be a way to produce a more affordable molds.
Prior to academia, I worked in the injection moulding industry for 4 years. All our mould manufacturing went to China during this time - basically since it was impossible for 'UK industry to compete with a workforce that is willing to work for just rice and beans for a 12 hour shift for 365 days a year'.
That was something quoted to me at the time. The bottom line is that tooling isn't cheap at all and CAD hasn't changed that (mainly as so much of tooling cost isn't the CAD but the finishing required on it - which often has to be done manually and can't be automated).
Post by: supuk on February 19, 2018, 04:53:58 AM
I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality molds made and like I say I just dont think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !
Yes, tens of thousands for a single mold is insane. I was hoping that with recent advancements in 3D printing, there would be a way to produce a more affordable molds.
Prior to academia, I worked in the injection moulding industry for 4 years. All our mould manufacturing went to China during this time - basically since it was impossible for 'UK industry to compete with a workforce that is willing to work for just rice and beans for a 12 hour shift for 365 days a year'.
Exactly which is why people need to think a little bit and deside if supporting the businesses using this kind of labour often with little to know safety precautions is some they should be doing! Just because the workers are from China ect should they be used like this? ( I recently saw a video of a popular brands factory spaying boards with work wareing just a paper mask! )
Post by: Area 10 on February 19, 2018, 10:19:29 AM
That's a very good point, and I have seen videos with that happening too.I would love to do a hollow board and have even spoken to a local company about producing one of my designs but the setup cost is huge to have high quality molds made and like I say I just dont think there are enough people can see through the smoke and spend a little extra to get something that would be beyond the quality of anything out there. Maybe in 10 years when China labour prices are more equal it will make it more posable but till then if you want to pay people a proper wage and use skilled laybour is almost impossible to compete with the China prices. People just need to realise boards are not cheap if you want them done right !
Yes, tens of thousands for a single mold is insane. I was hoping that with recent advancements in 3D printing, there would be a way to produce a more affordable molds.
Prior to academia, I worked in the injection moulding industry for 4 years. All our mould manufacturing went to China during this time - basically since it was impossible for 'UK industry to compete with a workforce that is willing to work for just rice and beans for a 12 hour shift for 365 days a year'.
Exactly which is why people need to think a little bit and deside if supporting the businesses using this kind of labour often with little to know safety precautions is some they should be doing! Just because the workers are from China ect should they be used like this? ( I recently saw a video of a popular brands factory spaying boards with work wareing just a paper mask! )
But the question is, what price do you think people should be paying for a SUP? (i.e. that would make it financially possible for a local shaper to build boards using better methods to produce a lighter, more durable product, and also do the R&D necessary to develop the design)?
Post by: supuk on February 19, 2018, 10:57:12 AM
Most of what people are paying for with these boards coming from over sea's is the shipping of them multiple times around the globe passing through the hands of agents and distributers that all add there % When if you go to someone smaller or even just based on the same continent although your paying the same the money will be going in to more skilled labor working under better conditions generally creating better products
from my experience working with sponsors back in the day R&D was often a rushed process with designs going into production that had never actual been tested but just a thought of what needed to be changed from the previous model or prototype were a lot of the time the companies that don't have a yearly catalog are developing boards constantly making and tweaking designs so although it may not appear that they have done much R&D they have actually done a lot more refining than most as there is no need to change things just to generate some marketing blurb for the new season.
Post by: Area 10 on February 19, 2018, 12:30:48 PM
Certainly the construction of the Grey Paddleboards custom I have is unbelievably good. Its virtually bullet-proof in comparison to the big brand boards, weighs less, and the attention to detail is far beyond the production boards. Ive ridden it hard and in some pretty tricky conditions and it looks exactly the same as they day I got it.
I think that, as a customer, the main problem is that you just dont know what is possible until you actually see a board that is well-made. 99% of people in many markets have never seen a custom.
Post by: supuk on February 19, 2018, 01:07:41 PM
Post by: Area 10 on February 19, 2018, 01:29:04 PM
Yeah, Nelo etc are interesting. They just need to SUP more though, I suspect. Hopefully they will get there. I dont mind paying a bit more to get a lot more.
Post by: photofr on February 19, 2018, 11:23:19 PM
Take skiing, snowboarding, biking, windsurfing, SUP, Coca-Cola, tennis, etc... Would you really go buy a SUP that you have heard nothing about before? Manufacturers pray on that - it's actually the essence of marketing: "put it in people's faces, people will think it's popular".
Coca-Cola can sometimes be compared to poison. Why are you buying it? Why am I buying it? Well, actually, I don't drink much coke these days - but we must admit that they are everywhere we look. Their marketing used to be in excess of 70% of their entire earnings - for a good reason.
Certain SUP brands are bought because we see them winning - which is ridiculous because certain SUP brands go well out of their ways to literally purchase only the top paddlers. If you can't beat them, BUY THEM. Spectators aren't blind (but kind of) - they see this as "look, that board made a Podium again".
With all of this said, I believe we are even more fortunate than we think when we have a new brand coming out with innovating designs and construction methods that will - no doubt - change the way we see SUP. Nelo is one example.
At the same time, I am totally shocked with how Nelo did it.
They have years and YEARS of experience in R&D, construction, etc...
They have redefined how crafts will move through the water - or at least came up with several hull designs to make glide through the water even better. They have done this with flat water kayaks, flat water canoes, and now with SURFSKIS.
I AM MOST SHOCKED BECAUSE:
Nelo could have easily by-passed a German middle man.
Nelo could have easily come up with their design.
Mark my words: a board with Nelo R&D, with Nelo construction and with Nelo distribution would cost between 1800 and 2200 euros in most European countries. Add the middle man, and you immediately add about 40%.
Post by: ukgm on February 19, 2018, 11:37:32 PM
Post by: photofr on February 20, 2018, 12:04:48 AM
Why?
Do you feel like the Nelo 14x23" doesn't have enough primary stability?
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 12:20:55 AM
@UKGM
Why?
Do you feel like the Nelo 14x23" doesn't have enough primary stability?
I believe so. The problem was that I've made that assumption based on videos I've seen plus one paddler I know who has one using (all in lieu of me not being able to access one to try it myself). That's not a great way to forumlate an opinion. If the 24.75 (which is more my volume) is workable for me, I'd race one tomorrow - that's how strongly I feel about the concept.
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 12:51:33 AM
My main concern with Nelo is whether the board is designed for mass start racing. I found this with the Farr hollow construction board a couple of years back. That was designed by Americas cup engineers and it was awesomely quick on its own (even with a 26.5 width) but get it in a mass start race and it struggled. Nelo may not have an understanding of the nuances of SUP racing that would influence it's design in the way that Starboard, Naish et al have already been through.Yes, this it it. You have to have raceboards designed by people who actually race, not who just paddle fast.
When we see Nelo shapers actually paddling in races (eg. like Mark Rasphorst and several other shapers), then I think that confidence will spread. Most flat water races are probably not decided by pure flat water speed any more, but thats where designers who dont race would naturally put their focus.
Post by: photofr on February 20, 2018, 12:54:53 AM
In the World of SURFSKI, we refer and compare PRIMARY and SECONDARY stability. In SUP, this translates with two boards that come to mind: the Allstar and the Ace (both 14x25)
The Allstar has tons of primary stability: you stand on it and it feels rock solid under your feet. Start tilting the board a bunch and you feel secondary stability - although about "average" on the Allstar.
The Ace: comparatively speaking to the above board, the Ace has a whole lot less primary stability. However, with its huge sidewalls, the Ace has far better secondary stability.
Judging from images and videos that I see regarding the Nelo board, my best guess is that the larger Nelo board will probably have less primary stability than the Ace.
WHY?
Another guess here, but probably worth mentioning that the Nelo board is built by Nelo with Nelo's nearly unparalleled construction methods. However, the R&D isn't Nelo. Perhaps it was Nelo's way to test the SUP World... ?
BETTER?
I would much prefer see a Nelo conception regarding the design - and perhaps we will see that in the near future. With a lot of certainty, and based on Nelo's current concepts regarding amazing water crafts, we will likely see a future SUP BOARD that will have the following characteristics:
- Narrow width bow
- Nose piercing bow
- Strategically flatten areas in the hull (not all flat, but with flat areas)
- Pin tail
In fact, Nelo's future boards may look more like a K15 - under 9 kilos including fin.
The above info is based on what they have accomplished with SURFSKIS. Nelo has the 560 which is an amazing surfski, but the based advancement is the Nelo 550 surfski. Two distinctly flat hull areas that add tons of primary stability.
Let's recall that primary stability is (in my opinion) crucial as reassures you the second you get on that ski / board. The current board may be the exact opposite of that, but again, it's my "best guess".
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 12:55:08 AM
My main concern with Nelo is whether the board is designed for mass start racing. I found this with the Farr hollow construction board a couple of years back. That was designed by Americas cup engineers and it was awesomely quick on its own (even with a 26.5 width) but get it in a mass start race and it struggled. Nelo may not have an understanding of the nuances of SUP racing that would influence it's design in the way that Starboard, Naish et al have already been through.Yes, this it it. You have to have raceboards designed by people who actually race, not who just paddle fast.
When we see Nelo shapers actually paddling in races (eg. like Mark Rasphorst and several other shapers), then I think that confidence will spread. Most flat water races are probably not decided by pure flat water speed any more, but thats where designers who dont race would naturally put their focus.
More specifically, its why if I were buying a board or looking for a team, I'd be paddling the 2018 Starboard Sprint. It's probably not as fast in a straight line as the 2017 or 2016 versions but it had tweaks based on the kind of racing and handling we need, not just raw speed in isolation.
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 01:00:01 AM
1) I was only thinking this yesterday. That design was ahead of its time but with poor construction by todays standards. One of the domestic racers still does well on it (despite trying more recent allstars) even when the board weighs a huge amount.
1) In fact, Nelo's future boards may look more like a K15 - under 9 kilos including fin.
2) The above info is based on what they have accomplished with SURFSKIS. Nelo has the 560 which is an amazing surfski, but the based advancement is the Nelo 550 surfski. Two distinctly flat hull areas that add tons of primary stability.
3) Let's recall that primary stability is (in my opinion) crucial as reassures you the second you get on that ski / board. The current board may be the exact opposite of that, but again, it's my "best guess".
2) I agree. I paddle Epic surfski's.
3) Absolutely and its primary stability that gets sales in my opinion, not the promise of secondary stability.
I hate to bring this subject up but this might be where you start to see a division between the ICF and the ISA equipment with competitors in one going with one type of construction that suits its racing formats but with surf remaining as is.
Post by: photofr on February 20, 2018, 01:24:11 AM
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 01:47:16 AM
Post by: photofr on February 20, 2018, 02:00:33 AM
Are SUP builders exempt from trying to make a great board design that will last 2 to 4 years?
The 14x25 Race was a complete flop - and could have been 100% avoided if the company wasn't rushed to produce a new board. Surely, that kind of mistake is repeated with most SUP - and the cause could very come from the need to produce something new every single year - using my money, your money and everyone's money to test new products for them.
Personally, I'd rather see a company slow the process down, and come out with more durable products, with shapes that are trued and actually tried (and by that, I specifically mean in-house testing before releasing a stellar board)
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 02:08:36 AM
Yes, but do we really need a change every year?
Are SUP builders exempt from trying to make a great board design that will last 2 to 4 years?
The 14x25 Race was a complete flop - and could have been 100% avoided if the company wasn't rushed to produce a new board. Surely, that kind of mistake is repeated with most SUP - and the cause could very come from the need to produce something new every single year - using my money, your money and everyone's money to test new products for them.
Personally, I'd rather see a company slow the process down, and come out with more durable products, with shapes that are trued and actually tried (and by that, I specifically mean in-house testing before releasing a stellar board)
I don't disagree. To a qualified eye, its clear to me that many of Starboards boards were just an ongoing stream of prototypes put into production annually. No other sports industry I know of works to that short scale timescale for new product development. That either means that they have the best R&D mechanism in the world or that they have a flawed process that they want you to pay for as often as possible. I'll let others be the judge.
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 02:12:54 AM
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 06:40:30 AM
I think that weve all agreed from the start of SUP that the new model every year SOP from the likes of Starboard has been unhelpful for customer and retailer alike.
We might all agree on that, but in practice most paddlers I know still buy into this BS.
Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.
With that in mind, I don't see much hope for the average paddler. They'll just keep changing board every year in their search for a unicorn.
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 06:53:55 AM
I think that weve all agreed from the start of SUP that the new model every year SOP from the likes of Starboard has been unhelpful for customer and retailer alike.
Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.
A fair point. A lot of my reasons came mainly down to resale value (I can resell a Starboard in a week or two and take less hit than any other brand - a custom is all but worthless and impossible to sell on over here). I was offered two team rides this year but both were on boards that would have hurt my results. I instead bought one secondhand that delivered time trial PB's quickly fora 2017 board that I bought for 33% of its RRP. Yes, it was a compromise but a good board and was a wallet friendly option.
I'll likely move onto another board next year and I'm undecided on what that would be yet. The Nelo may well be it but I'm just as likely to hold out for a secondhand Sprint 2018. Being educated is one thing but we've all got wallets to defend too !
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 07:29:23 AM
I think that weve all agreed from the start of SUP that the new model every year SOP from the likes of Starboard has been unhelpful for customer and retailer alike.
Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.
A fair point. A lot of my reasons came mainly down to resale value (I can resell a Starboard in a week or two and take less hit than any other brand - a custom is all but worthless and impossible to sell on over here). I was offered two team rides this year but both were on boards that would have hurt my results. I instead bought one secondhand that delivered time trial PB's quickly fora 2017 board that I bought for 33% of its RRP. Yes, it was a compromise but a good board and was a wallet friendly option.
I'll likely move onto another board next year and I'm undecided on what that would be yet. The Nelo may well be it but I'm just as likely to hold out for a secondhand Sprint 2018. Being educated is one thing but we've all got wallets to defend too !
It's a fair point as well. The point I'm making is using your knowledge to come up with a timeless design that works for you and lasts for years. It's doable, take a look at the SIC Bullet.
Once you've reached a certain level and identified the most fulfilling aspects of the sport and then tested pretty much every concept out there, I'm pretty sure you can make it work.
I didn't dive into the economics of the board resell arena but i'm pretty sure you're loosing money every year and still end up with a compromised product. You still have to come up with
a hefty sum every year, 33% or not. And if your board got damaged, a possibility likely to happen on those egg-shell boards you'll likely kiss your resell value goodbye.
Post by: Luc Benac on February 20, 2018, 07:37:28 AM
We might all agree on that, but in practice most paddlers I know still buy into this BS.
Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.
With that in mind, I don't see much hope for the average paddler. They'll just keep changing board every year in their search for a unicorn.
In fairness, some of us would love to have a custom but do not have proximity to a shaper....I would have loved to buy the equivalent of a 16' Bark Vapor with a nice layering. instead I had to console myself with buying a second hand Carbon Ghost one and sell my ProElite one. I think that once you have come to really like a shape for your own use, after board hoping for a while, then it makes total sense to go for a custom based on a variation of the shape you like.
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 08:00:41 AM
I think that once you have come to really like a shape for your own use, after board hoping for a while, then it makes total sense to go for a custom based on a variation of the shape you like.
I had you in mind as well when making this point. There is always a tiny leap of faith going that route but the end result is a pure joy.
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 10:21:55 AM
Yeah, when I buy a production 14ft board these days it is with the intention in mind of getting a custom unlimited version of it made in due course. The 14ft is just a prototype, in effect. And then Ill sell the 14ft and hold onto the better-made, tailor-made, stronger, faster, nicer to paddle unlimited for years, long after the cheap construction of the production board has fallen apart. Its a shame that I cant race an UL in this country (with the exception of one downwind race I think). But thats just the price you pay to have a board that maximises your paddling enjoyment, I guess.We might all agree on that, but in practice most paddlers I know still buy into this BS.
Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.
With that in mind, I don't see much hope for the average paddler. They'll just keep changing board every year in their search for a unicorn.
In fairness, some of us would love to have a custom but do not have proximity to a shaper....I would have loved to buy the equivalent of a 16' Bark Vapor with a nice layering. instead I had to console myself with buying a second hand Carbon Ghost one and sell my ProElite one. I think that once you have come to really like a shape for your own use, after board hoping for a while, then it makes total sense to go for a custom based on a variation of the shape you like.
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 10:33:36 AM
Yeah, when I buy a production 14ft board these days it is with the intention in mind of getting a custom unlimited version of it made in due course. The 14ft is just a prototype, in effect. And then Ill sell the 14ft and hold onto the better-made, tailor-made, stronger, faster, nicer to paddle unlimited for years, long after the cheap construction of the production board has fallen apart.
I'm right there with you. The only difference, I don't buy that 14 board. Instead I went on vacation where I can heavily test all the "best in category" boards in different widths and various conditions,
take mental notes as well as physical notes and put it into my custom UL.
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 10:47:18 AM
Its a shame that I cant race an UL in this country (with the exception of one downwind race I think). But thats just the price you pay to have a board that maximises your paddling enjoyment, I guess.
As for the racing, I just enter race as a 14, but bring my UL. I'm in it for the fun anyway, I believe you're too. If you happen to win, well, deal with that when it happens. ;)
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 12:30:10 PM
Ukgm could get an UL board and then hire me and my buddies with ULs to make up a category, and then hed get line honours every time :)
Post by: Luc Benac on February 20, 2018, 12:47:45 PM
Yeah, I was thinking of doing that. Im not likely to be anywhere near the podium anyway, unless maybe there happens to be an age division suitable for me. What I didnt want to do was go to the trouble of turning up and then being told I couldnt paddle because I had an illegal board.
Ukgm could get an UL board and then hire me and my buddies with ULs to make up a category, and then hed get line honours every time :)
I do that for the two/three races I participate every year. All I have done before registering is to send an email to the organizer (we are a small community here) and asked them to confirm UL welcome. They would usually send me back an email saying that I was welcome on my Ace-GT but in case of been first, I might not receive the prize. I reassure them that having been first only once in the past few years, there was no risk at all and that I would gladly surrender any price or right to brag very willingly. The big news is that our brand new downwind race coming this summer....as an UL class......Having a sponsor that sell UL boards might have helped :-)
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 01:33:14 PM
I think that weve all agreed from the start of SUP that the new model every year SOP from the likes of Starboard has been unhelpful for customer and retailer alike.
Take ukgm and photofr, both very educated and very specific about their needs yet they still feed the biggest offending beast in this realm.
With their knowledge and experience, they could have easily ride their own customs long time ago.
A fair point. A lot of my reasons came mainly down to resale value (I can resell a Starboard in a week or two and take less hit than any other brand - a custom is all but worthless and impossible to sell on over here). I was offered two team rides this year but both were on boards that would have hurt my results. I instead bought one secondhand that delivered time trial PB's quickly fora 2017 board that I bought for 33% of its RRP. Yes, it was a compromise but a good board and was a wallet friendly option.
I'll likely move onto another board next year and I'm undecided on what that would be yet. The Nelo may well be it but I'm just as likely to hold out for a secondhand Sprint 2018. Being educated is one thing but we've all got wallets to defend too !
It's a fair point as well. The point I'm making is using your knowledge to come up with a timeless design that works for you and lasts for years. It's doable, take a look at the SIC Bullet.
Once you've reached a certain level and identified the most fulfilling aspects of the sport and then tested pretty much every concept out there, I'm pretty sure you can make it work.
I didn't dive into the economics of the board resell arena but i'm pretty sure you're loosing money every year and still end up with a compromised product. You still have to come up with
a hefty sum every year, 33% or not. And if your board got damaged, a possibility likely to happen on those egg-shell boards you'll likely kiss your resell value goodbye.
Yep, all true again. Youre not wrong. Im more uncertain on going to a custom shaper. One, I dont know that many Id trust and at my stage of development, Im not actually sure what to ask for.
Post by: ukgm on February 20, 2018, 01:35:15 PM
Yeah, I was thinking of doing that. Im not likely to be anywhere near the podium anyway, unless maybe there happens to be an age division suitable for me. What I didnt want to do was go to the trouble of turning up and then being told I couldnt paddle because I had an illegal board.
Ukgm could get an UL board and then hire me and my buddies with ULs to make up a category, and then hed get line honours every time :)
The head of the dart race is the only race left in the UK that accepts ULs now. I keep getting tempted to race one but its such a big event now, I dont want to lose it to an experiment I cant capitalise on anyway. A damn shame as thats one project Id love to play around with.
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 01:51:03 PM
When I get my next UL (which will be an all-waters race board, hopefully), youll have to come and give it a go. Then youd have something to base your own order on. A guy with your power and stamina on an UL would absolutely crush everyone, including other people on an UL.Yeah, I was thinking of doing that. Im not likely to be anywhere near the podium anyway, unless maybe there happens to be an age division suitable for me. What I didnt want to do was go to the trouble of turning up and then being told I couldnt paddle because I had an illegal board.
Ukgm could get an UL board and then hire me and my buddies with ULs to make up a category, and then hed get line honours every time :)
The head of the dart race is the only race left in the UK that accepts ULs now. I keep getting tempted to race one but its such a big event now, I dont want to lose it to an experiment I cant capitalise on anyway. A damn shame as thats one project Id love to play around with.
Post by: burchas on February 20, 2018, 01:56:31 PM
I dont know that many Id trust and at my stage of development, Im not actually sure what to ask for
Now that's a great topic for a thread here. Leave it with Area 10 and supuk to sort things out ;D
Also, it would be a great read.
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 02:02:19 PM
I dont know that many Id trust and at my stage of development, Im not actually sure what to ask for
Now that's a great topic for a thread here. Leave it with Area 10 and supuk to sort things out ;D
Also, it would be a great read.
Yeah we could sort him out for sure. And document the design and building of ukgms giant killer board :)
Post by: Luc Benac on February 20, 2018, 02:28:06 PM
Yeah we could sort him out for sure. And document the design and building of ukgms giant killer board :)
Based on the size of ukgm, I would use another expression than "sort him out" :-)
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2018, 02:43:51 PM
:) :) Yes, I meant sort him out with a board design not the other meaning of the phrase! Ukgm could probably pop my skull like a pimple between his thumb and forefinger alone.Yeah we could sort him out for sure. And document the design and building of ukgms giant killer board :)
Based on the size of ukgm, I would use another expression than "sort him out" :-)
Post by: ukgm on February 21, 2018, 05:09:30 AM
:) :) Yes, I meant sort him out with a board design not the other meaning of the phrase! Ukgm could probably pop my skull like a pimple between his thumb and forefinger alone.Yeah we could sort him out for sure. And document the design and building of ukgms giant killer board :)
Based on the size of ukgm, I would use another expression than "sort him out" :-)
I've got a video about to come out in a week or two for one of the main british SUP websites. I'll let you decide if I'm more Bridget Jones than Vinnie Jones when that one comes out.... ;D
Post by: ukgm on February 21, 2018, 05:10:44 AM
I dont know that many Id trust and at my stage of development, Im not actually sure what to ask for
Now that's a great topic for a thread here. Leave it with Area 10 and supuk to sort things out ;D
Also, it would be a great read.
It's certainly a tempting concept.
Post by: ukgm on February 22, 2018, 12:37:39 AM
That's a major upshift in performance as far as I'm concerned.
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 12:45:02 AM
The new Nelo 14x23 is said to be currently less than 8.5 kilos.
Even based on about 10kg for the board, and based on your math, the 1.5% equates to about 1.5 minutes ahead of competition on an average 20km race. One and a Half minute is a huge win.
How about if I tell you that a "standard" 14x25" board will eventually be much lighter, like 7 or 8 kilos?
How does your math look with a 8-kilogram board, including the fin?
Taking this to the next level, not even I could do the math under DW conditions, however:
Take an 8 kg board on your favorite 20km Downwind run, how many times are you "accelerating the total mass"???
Typically, on my surfski, I estimate about 300 distinct accelerations - and it's been made abundantly clear to me that this task is much easier with a 9 kg surfski than with a 14 kg ski.
Post by: ukgm on February 22, 2018, 01:45:13 AM
1) One and a Half minute is a huge win.1) That's enough for me to win regional races and place in the top 5 of the biggest races in our country.
2) How about if I tell you that a "standard" 14x25" board will eventually be much lighter, like 7 or 8 kilos?
How does your math look with a 8-kilogram board, including the fin?
3) Typically, on my surfski, I estimate about 300 distinct accelerations - and it's been made abundantly clear to me that this task is much easier with a 9 kg surfski than with a 14 kg ski.
2) That's another reason I held off as I assumed they are still perfecting the lay up.
3) Whilst I agree with you, the limited information in kayaks and rowing doesn't support the gain is that great (see the formula I quoted). However, SUP may well be different due to its lower cruising speed and its higher deceleration per stroke compared to those other craft (I've measured this using a smart phone accelerometer). I'm personally inclined to agree with you.
The real question is whether a paddler could handle this specific design of board on a busy start line. Of that I remain unsure (and any footage you find of this board always shows it alone or in the lead so its hard to tell). Just out of interest, do you have a relationship with this company ?
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 01:59:23 AM
One thing is crystal clear to me:
Take any board, or simply take your favorite craft - reduce its weight by 8 pounds and see the result.
BUSY START LINE?
I can't say. Heck, at this point, I really wish there were more than 5 or 10 images of the board. And how is it that people don't understand the importance of communication on their products? This is 2018!!!!
Post by: Area 10 on February 22, 2018, 03:58:15 AM
Post by: ukgm on February 22, 2018, 06:30:01 AM
I doubt that the speed gain in the real world from dropping the weight of the board will be anything like as big as you think. Sadly. But Id love to collect some data on that.
It certainly hasn't in surf ski's, kayaks and rowing shells (there is published data out there on those). With SUP I don't know. Mind you, some good news is that I've just been contacted and offered a Nelo to trial for a bit !
Post by: Area 10 on February 22, 2018, 07:10:29 AM
Btw, is Nelo pronounced kneelo or nello (as in hello)?
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 07:12:25 AM
Surfski tested extensively were:
Epic V8 (15 kilos vs 11 kilos)
Epic V10 (12 kilos vs 9.8 kilos)
Nelo 520 (12.5 kilos vs 10 kilos)
Nelo 560L (13 kilos vs 11.5 kilos)
If the exact same SUP board yields ANYTHING close to that because it's light, I will be a very happy camper!!!
(and than add the joy of board handling when it comes to a super light board, add durability and the works - and I am more than ever pretty certain to have found something "interesting")
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 07:13:05 AM
Post by: Area 10 on February 22, 2018, 07:34:34 AM
Congrats on getting a Nelo (NAY-LOW)Ah yes, of course. Nay-Low. Heigh Ho, heigh ho, its off to work we go, on a Nelo.
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 07:55:14 AM
You'll have a mellow Nelo Day :)
Post by: Quickbeam on February 22, 2018, 08:27:52 AM
Just out of interest, do you have a relationship with this company ?
Photofr,
Not an issue, but I'm also curious?
Post by: Area 10 on February 22, 2018, 09:08:09 AM
Sounds like we might be needing to ask ukgm that same question too :)Just out of interest, do you have a relationship with this company ?
Photofr,
Not an issue, but I'm also curious?
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 09:11:46 AM
I was a rep for Nelo, I took part introducing all Nelo surfskis in France for about 2 years. I sold my last surfski about a year before leaving the company, so needless to say, when it was time to quit, I had a choice to make - and what ski(s) to purchase.
It was down with two companies: I simply chose Nelo because of construction, fit (near perfect on my Nelo 560M), and durability. I thought I was going to get a stellar deal, especially since I ended up purchasing a new ski for my wife as well as a K2 for the both of us. The whole thing cost me an arm and a leg (but think of it as an investment for good health).
Since you ask, I will emphasise this:
I was going to get a deal on the skis but didn't.
I was going to get free shipping as well - but ended up paying full shipping price as well.
Regrets? Of course... for the money, but I'd do it again.
I am no longer associated with:
Starboard SUP
Braca Paddles
Nelo Surfskis
I have never been associated with:
Nelo SUP
Meanwhile, and this should tell you a lot:
Because of durability (or lack thereof) I have decided to never purchase another board made with styrofoam.
I can paddle any surfski on planet earth - I have chosen a Nelo.
I can paddle any paddle on earth - some providing more enjoyment than others - but I paddle exclusively Braca paddles - EVEN FOR SUP.
That should clear the air a little. CHEERS!
Post by: ukgm on February 22, 2018, 10:24:44 AM
Sounds like we might be needing to ask ukgm that same question too :)Just out of interest, do you have a relationship with this company ?
Photofr,
Not an issue, but I'm also curious?
Nope. However, for purposes of transparency, I did informally speak to Lightsignature by email last year a few times to get as much info as I could about the board and the UK Nelo kayak rep is a contact of mine (and this is now how I've managed to access one to trial).
Post by: Area 10 on February 22, 2018, 10:52:42 AM
Post by: Quickbeam on February 22, 2018, 11:26:17 AM
Nope - No - and NOPE.
I was a rep for Nelo, I took part introducing all Nelo surfskis in France for about 2 years. I sold my last surfski about a year before leaving the company, so needless to say, when it was time to quit, I had a choice to make - and what ski(s) to purchase.
It was down with two companies: I simply chose Nelo because of construction, fit (near perfect on my Nelo 560M), and durability. I thought I was going to get a stellar deal, especially since I ended up purchasing a new ski for my wife as well as a K2 for the both of us. The whole thing cost me an arm and a leg (but think of it as an investment for good health).
Since you ask, I will emphasise this:
I was going to get a deal on the skis but didn't.
I was going to get free shipping as well - but ended up paying full shipping price as well.
Regrets? Of course... for the money, but I'd do it again.
I am no longer associated with:
Starboard SUP
Braca Paddles
Nelo Surfskis
I have never been associated with:
Nelo SUP
Meanwhile, and this should tell you a lot:
Because of durability (or lack thereof) I have decided to never purchase another board made with styrofoam.
I can paddle any surfski on planet earth - I have chosen a Nelo.
I can paddle any paddle on earth - some providing more enjoyment than others - but I paddle exclusively Braca paddles - EVEN FOR SUP.
That should clear the air a little. CHEERS!
Thanks Photo!
Post by: photofr on February 22, 2018, 12:49:42 PM
Its a shame they dont seem to have any pics of the bottom of the Nelo on the website (?). I hope this turns out to be a good design, and strong and durable. Ive had enough of spending a small fortune on race boards where the standard of construction is so poor that you have to ask yourself if its fit for purpose. If every little glancing blow when racing ends up in a $$$ bill, can a board be considered fit for its advertised use? Rubbing is racing, as they say.
Each year, I am thinking: "we have so much technology at our fingertips..." and every year, I am blown away at how some companies just ignore communicating on their products. Fewer representatives is one thing, but fewer descriptions, fewer explanations, and fewer photos make NO SENSE.
Post by: ukgm on February 23, 2018, 12:40:46 AM
Its a shame they dont seem to have any pics of the bottom of the Nelo on the website (?). I hope this turns out to be a good design, and strong and durable. Ive had enough of spending a small fortune on race boards where the standard of construction is so poor that you have to ask yourself if its fit for purpose. If every little glancing blow when racing ends up in a $$$ bill, can a board be considered fit for its advertised use? Rubbing is racing, as they say.
Each year, I am thinking: "we have so much technology at our fingertips..." and every year, I am blown away at how some companies just ignore communicating on their products. Fewer representatives is one thing, but fewer descriptions, fewer explanations, and fewer photos make NO SENSE.
Agreed. Digital communication is now everything. Companies should really be told they won't sell a thing now unless they allocate resources to a constant drip feed of information. The Nelo link is a huge brand in paddlesports but their attempt at promoting it outside of Germany is very poor at best. The board has been out for a year and chuck it into Google and there is literally nothing on it.
Post by: Area 10 on February 23, 2018, 02:11:59 AM
On another topic, reverse noses are interesting, and its easy to understand the theory as regards reducing pitching and going upwind. But how do they load up as you approach hull speed? Do you have to step back a little bit to lift for the bow wave or does it push through it (if you are strong enough to do it)?
https://youtu.be/NU-keh72kQg
Theres certainly some porpoise power on display here :)
Will be interesting to see what the Heigh-ho Nay-Lo bow does at full chat like this.
Post by: photofr on February 23, 2018, 02:56:32 AM
Reverse bows are fantastic for sheer speed on dead flat water.
For all-around use, I would go with a surfski bow - any time, any day (if given the choice).
Surfski bows aren't the fastest on dead flat water (reverse bow seemingly are), but they are still plenty fast on dead flat.
The slowest bow on flat water would be that of an Ace or that of a traditional surfboard, or my dining table.
Surfski bows do very well in ANY Ocean condition - and so would make an ideal candidate for SUP.
Sadly, no one is really giving us a real surfski bow for SUP - yet.
However, we are now getting one of the best surfski construction ever - for SUP.
On a different note, THANKS for sharing that video. I was the first guy taking photos from the water that day.
Here's the fastest paddler that year:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-May-27-Editors-Choice/i-fk7H9LJ/2/e35d2fcd/X2/sprints-favorites-0055-X2.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-May-27-Editors-Choice/i-fk7H9LJ/A)
TYPICAL SURFSKI BOW
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-qfPH9Dh/0/b3c1141d/XL/BZH%20Technical%20%281%29-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-qfPH9Dh/A)
WHAT THE BOW LOOKS LIKE AT 10km/h
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-jZK5k5P/0/cb7a0190/XL/damien%20%2819%29-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-jZK5k5P/A)
WHAT THE BOW LOOKS LIKE AT 15km/h
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-J5tnrCL/0/71c38288/XL/BZH%20Technical%20%286%29-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-J5tnrCL/A)
WHAT THE BOW LOOKS LIKE AT 25+ km/h
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-3BB5543/0/ce439929/XL/nelo%3Dportivy-0016-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-560/i-3BB5543/A)
Post by: photofr on February 23, 2018, 03:01:08 AM
SUP (and surfski) builders should however take a look at the two following designs from Revo Surfskis.
The bow is super interesting.
Even more so, the hull - DO CHECK OUT the hull on their website.
http://revokayaks.com.au
They are built a little on the heavy side, but the design is amazingly stable - for any given width.
Post by: Area 10 on February 23, 2018, 03:47:37 AM
Oh, I can tell you that reverse (or more commonly inverted) bows do very well upwind in small chop and is fine downwind in small stuff. But the board gets completely swamped going upwind in bigger stuff unless you get well back, and if you pearl it going downwind in big stuff you are gonna need an acqualung 😀 Dont ask me how I know this...
Post by: Eagle on February 23, 2018, 09:07:13 AM
Post by: Area 10 on February 23, 2018, 09:29:05 AM
But for going fast on your own in flat water or in mild conditions and straight upwind they are really great.
Post by: warmuth on February 23, 2018, 09:46:43 AM
Post by: Area 10 on February 23, 2018, 10:02:54 AM
Flat water racing is rarely flat water racing in practice. Almost no races are time trials either. Manufacturers dont offer less and less flat water only boards for no reason. Small market of a small market.Yeah, if you want a board to paddle on your own in flat windless conditions and your balance is decent, then an axe bow board is really great.
Post by: photofr on February 23, 2018, 10:19:43 AM
Take the THINK SUP, lower that deck by several inches (well below water level even) and simply reduce some of its width and you'd have a killing machine for:
Flat + upwind + dare I say DW
FOR EVERYDAY RACING
Take the exact same board, flatten the hull in strategic places, add couple of rails / channels if you wish to add even more stability and I assure you that you will have one heck of a fun board.
THINK may just have released their board "too early" - based on human's natural evolution ahahah
In the meantime, I am dreaming of my new Nelo board.
In the meantime: Big paddling weekend coming up - with my slug.
Post by: Luc Benac on February 23, 2018, 10:36:33 AM
Several races have used to some extend Think sup in some of our local race (where flat happen only once in a blue moon) and did not perform significantly better and have changed design/brand. I do not see any Think sup except maybe one in these races.
https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/nvn/sgd/d/think-xor-sup-20-off/6453783613.html (https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/nvn/sgd/d/think-xor-sup-20-off/6453783613.html)
Post by: Eagle on February 23, 2018, 10:51:23 AM
Whereas the AS25 accelerated quickly -> but then quickly decelerated with all the drag of the cutting boof complex underwater shape and fat tail. Yeah for me would swap my Dom for the Think. Is a really nice deep vee design with a constant roll. Wanted Daryl to make a hollow 26 but he said there was no market for that. But for pure paddling pleasure without buoy turns and such -> the Think captures the essence of flat paddling for me. Def is not optimized for mass starts and wash as the super sharp entry self steers a ton. Is super easy to go straight like the Dom.
Smooth silent operator built for straight line distance and max glide. Is a bit of a handful DW -> but nothing is perfect. ;)
Post by: photofr on February 23, 2018, 11:38:10 PM
So when you are talking about a surfski bow you mean an axe bow, right? If so, how is the axe bow on a surfski different from that implemented on boards like the Bark Dominator etc?
Oh, I can tell you that reverse (or more commonly inverted) bows do very well upwind in small chop and is fine downwind in small stuff. But the board gets completely swamped going upwind in bigger stuff unless you get well back, and if you pearl it going downwind in big stuff you are gonna need an acqualung 😀 Dont ask me how I know this...
I didn't want to bring back the bow debate again - honest, wasn't my intention!
AXE BOW
I don't really want to say Axe bow, mainly because I don't think axes have a nice-enough flowing curve (even though sometimes they do). Best keep the language that I have taught: surfskis have piercing bows that can surf quite well.
Since a picture is like a 1000 words, perhaps this will better explain. Note: this isn't your average ski. It's ONLY 5.20 meters long, and it's 52cm in width. I am using this particular surfski as an example because it's so close to real-life dimensions that would work for us on a SUP.
Last, but not least:
Yes the bow is piercing through the water very quietly.
No it doesn't immediately flare out like OLDER SUP using a similar nose - and I think this will make a huge difference.
Yes, the front end goes from "pointy" to "round" BUT then quickly goes to flat for strategic stability areas.
Here are two photos to show the above.
NOTICE THE VERY NARROW BOW
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-520/i-WLcx92h/0/1259e584/X2/nelo-surfski-520-0001-X2.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-520/i-WLcx92h/A)
LOOK CAREFULLY AT THE FLATTEN AREAS
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-July-28-Port-Louis/i-LKhczdH/1/f2feecb5/XL/port-louis-0031-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-520/i-LKhczdH/A)
OVERALL VIEW
(please imagine the same thing with a flat standing area, and about 4 cm more in width)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-Jun-15-Nelo-SURFSKI/i-4qdFP5n/1/13fb80a9/XL/1-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Nelo-Surfski-520/i-4qdFP5n/A)
... and that's where I believe Nelo will go when they design their next SUP.
Post by: Area 10 on February 24, 2018, 02:42:16 AM
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/img/photos/stand_up_paddle/9643573.jpg
If Nelo make a SUP with a bow like this it will he fast in flat water when the paddler is alone. But they wont sell many. For the reasons why, I refer you to my previous post. Not many paddlers who are serious enough about SUP to buy an Uber-expensive board (a) dont race, and (b) paddle only in windless pure flat water.
The lack of sales, the lack of versatility, and the sheer tippiness and overspecialisation would probably kill it off, unfortunately. But not before youve had good fun berating us with stories about how we should be paddling what you paddle even if we arent your dimensions, dont paddle in your conditions, and want a board that performs well in a majority of races, including ones in the ocean, that have buoy turns, and require drafting. :)
This is one way in which racing can unfortunately negatively impact upon the paddling pleasure of those that dont race, but who dont want to tour with the contents of half an apartment on board either. But the brands have to make what sells. And boards with bows like the Strike have remained largely unloved and unbought.
But maybe before Heigh Ho Nelo discover this they will make a few that will gain a cult following on the used market for a few years.
Post by: ukgm on February 24, 2018, 04:33:38 AM
......However, it will be well suited to the upcoming ICF formats I was told about yesterday.
Post by: Area 10 on February 24, 2018, 05:43:22 AM
......However, it will be well suited to the upcoming ICF formats I was told about yesterday.Ok, spill the beans!
Dull time trials would be much easier to train for, and to hold for the Olympics. Refereeing an Olympic event that was like the PPG/BOP with Kai/Connor etc knocking seven bells out of each other and buoys coming free from its moorings etc would be a nightmare.
Post by: Luc Benac on February 24, 2018, 07:14:48 AM
......However, it will be well suited to the upcoming ICF formats I was told about yesterday.Ok, spill the beans!
Dull time trials would be much easier to train for, and to hold for the Olympics.
"Dull" that is an understatement if any....
Post by: Area 10 on February 24, 2018, 07:55:53 AM
Yeah but thats absolute fine: it will accelerate the split between inland flat water people and the ocean people, and the downwinders (and occasionally the surfers) from both environments can keep doing what they are doing.......However, it will be well suited to the upcoming ICF formats I was told about yesterday.Ok, spill the beans!
Dull time trials would be much easier to train for, and to hold for the Olympics.
"Dull" that is an understatement if any....
We were probably never going to find a way to keep together, competitively, the flat water gym bunny hot off the ergometer types and the ocean thrill-seekers anyway. As this thread and others on the Zone have demonstrated, the mindsets and what they want out of SUP are too far apart.
Anyway, if social media in the UK is anything to go by, the biggest thing in SUP right now is SUP dating and singles nights. I guess it wont be long before the first baby conceived on a SUP comes along :)
Post by: Luc Benac on February 24, 2018, 07:58:34 AM
I guess it wont be long before the first baby conceived on a SUP comes along :)
Hence the need for wider stable boards.....
Post by: Area 10 on February 24, 2018, 11:09:06 AM
:)I guess it wont be long before the first baby conceived on a SUP comes along :)
Hence the need for wider stable boards.....
You just know that Starboard is going to tell you that their new bottom channels will increase your chance of conceiving ;)
Post by: mr_proper on February 24, 2018, 11:18:50 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/288c29d5c1935b718fd5c1b6fab32a3a.jpg)
Post by: Area 10 on February 24, 2018, 11:34:36 AM
Post by: mr_proper on February 24, 2018, 12:13:36 PM
Whoa!!! More pics please!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/912410e884c898e6dd7519bb41546913.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/5a6bc6e05358b26907be318a6fb7dd34.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/68b0fb10db08605b21887d01b81b0b38.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/15a3836fa29aa2e342459715d2389ba1.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/7cc69a6e9ede1361095e800c63910e1b.jpg)
Post by: Area 10 on February 24, 2018, 02:26:14 PM
Looks like theyve taken pretty much the opposite approach to the design of a race SUP that the windsurf/surf/SUP-only brands have mostly been taking.
If the ICF promote flat water time-trial race formats as a way into the Olympics, this could be a smart move.
I look forward to hearing about your experiences with this board, for sure. Its certainly something special.
Post by: Mil-Surf on February 24, 2018, 02:28:32 PM
Post by: photofr on February 24, 2018, 11:44:23 PM
(I can't wait to get mine)
Spoke to a rider out in Germany. The resum goes something like this:
The board is fantastic for flat water.
The board is technical in Open Ocean, but has enough rear rocker to have a blast on smaller downwind conditions.
He kept emphasising: Must Try.
That guy is nearly 90 kilos - riding a the 23" model.
From my view - and thanks to the attached photos that Mr. PROPER posted:
I find that the board is going to lose a little bit of stability with its semi-rounded hull, however, speed increase will be felt for riders who can stand on it without balance issues. The fact that the board has plenty of surface area, and the fact that the standing area seems so dug out will certainly add stability.
The Huge amount of V on the deck should also shed water nicely - when needed.
The board seems to have a little more rear rocker than I would have imagine - perhaps making it a great all around actually.
WOW - I can't wait to try this craft on flat water, but now am totally looking to try this board in Open Ocean.
Post by: mr_proper on February 25, 2018, 12:41:21 AM
I usually paddle on the Danube river. In winter there is little traffic, in summer all the more. Motor boats for the Wakesurfer, cargo ships and cruise ships make some waves.
I am 195 cm tall and weighs about 92 kg, age 53. my balance is rather mediocre, as is my paddling.
The last few months I was paddling with a Starboard Allstar 14x24.5, which was well suited for the conditions. I also did not have to swim in some local races.
The Signature is a 14x24.75 and is in the first moment much tippier than the Allstar. However, the secondary stability seems a bit better. Still I lose speed immediately, as soon as it gets wavy and I notice the legs clearly after 8-10 km.
I was able to test the 2016 model for about 50km last summer, and thus managed my fastest time on the track.
My signature weighs just under 10 kg including the fin and paddles great. It's so light and stiff that you do not want to paddle anything else after some km.
I hope I am improving so far that I master the board even in races and do not go swimming or be too slow.
Sorry for my poor English, but google helps
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 12:45:57 AM
Unfortunately, I'm not the product testing specialist, but if you have special questions, I'll try to answer them.
I usually paddle on the Danube river. In winter there is little traffic, in summer all the more. Motor boats for the Wakesurfer, cargo ships and cruise ships make some waves.
I am 195 cm tall and weighs about 92 kg, age 53. my balance is rather mediocre, as is my paddling.
The last few months I was paddling with a Starboard Allstar 14x24.5, which was well suited for the conditions. I also did not have to swim in some local races.
The Signature is a 14x24.75 and is in the first moment much tippier than the Allstar. However, the secondary stability seems a bit better. Still I lose speed immediately, as soon as it gets wavy and I notice the legs clearly after 8-10 km.
I was able to test the 2016 model for about 50km last summer, and thus managed my fastest time on the track.
My signature weighs just under 10 kg including the fin and paddles great. It's so light and stiff that you do not want to paddle anything else after some km.
I hope I am improving so far that I master the board even in races and do not go swimming or be too slow.
Sorry for my poor English, but google helps
How much faster than the allstar did you feel it was ?
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 12:48:03 AM
......However, it will be well suited to the upcoming ICF formats I was told about yesterday.Ok, spill the beans!
Dull time trials would be much easier to train for, and to hold for the Olympics. Refereeing an Olympic event that was like the PPG/BOP with Kai/Connor etc knocking seven bells out of each other and buoys coming free from its moorings etc would be a nightmare.
The final format will be publicised from late March/April apparently. However, provisionally speaking, its looking like a 5km beach race, a long distance flatwater race and my own personal favourite, a sprint competition of a distance up to 1000m (I suspect around half of that going by their recent rule book).
Post by: photofr on February 25, 2018, 01:23:12 AM
PHOTOS - Check... and thanks to you guys for sharing.
BOARD COMPARAISON - Pending
COMPETITIVE START FEEDBACK - Pending
OPEN WATER USE - Pending, but there are couple of cool photos of that board surfing
Post by: mr_proper on February 25, 2018, 01:38:50 AM
How much faster than the allstar did you feel it was ?
My fastest average speed with the Allstar on the home track (about 10 km; 1 km harbor, 4 km upstream, 4 km downstream, 1 km harbor) was 8.9 km/h.
With the Signature, which I did not know well, it was 9.3 km/h.
I think that 0.5 - 0.7 km/h higher average speed is realistic.
A paddle friend did the same course with an average of 9.7 km/h with the Signature.
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 01:44:26 AM
Post by: photofr on February 25, 2018, 02:27:47 AM
That's exactly what I was thinking when I placed my order for the 14x23.
I started with a HUGE FIN on my needle nose / needle pin tail 17'6x23" - and thought I would only paddle with that fin on dead flat water.
- 3 months later, I went with the Maliko to test out Open Ocean on calmer days.
- about 9 months after getting the board, I was doing smaller downwind runs using the Tiger (a very fast fin, also from Black Project).
I am planning on using large fin surfaces should stability be out of this World - but for really rough conditions, I will still have my surfskis and/or my Ace. Only time will tell if large fins are really needed.
ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE
Here's a 42km upwind / sidewind / and stronger DW on the way back - with the pin tail using the Tiger fin.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/Other/Memories/i-8XM6GBq/1/a99bd5b9/XL/UL23-Groix-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/Other/Memories/i-8XM6GBq/A)
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 02:36:31 AM
I wonder if switching their fin out to a longer (but proven) performer like a black project Maliko might help tame it a little.A longer fin with more area at the tip will certainly help a bit. Although the BP Maliko would not be my choice. But you will also lose speed.
IMO the best way to go fast with a board like this is to make sure you are in clean water, and to have very good balance skills, and practice a lot. And use a small fin.
It is lovely to see a new design and construction appearing on these pages. Under 10kg is wonderful.
Now, if theyd only make a board that I could actually paddle, in the conditions Id paddle, Id buy one. But on this board Id be literally faster on an 11ft surf board. However I appreciate that that is entirely my failing, and maybe wobbly old men like me shouldnt be gracing SUP racing anyhow. A teenager whod grown up with SUP would be unstoppable on a board like this. Maybe its time the old farts were culled from SUP racing, and this would be an excellent start along that road.
It sure is a lovely looking board, and its great to see the rounded hull concept back again. This is the sort of board that would break records on the non-stop 11 Cities race, for instance, with the right rider on top.
Post by: photofr on February 25, 2018, 03:24:41 AM
If you and I had a single task: to come up with a "revolutionary" board that would meet the needs of older paddlers, even brand new to the sport of SUP, would you not agree that a board could look like this:
Nose level: cut the water like a knife
Tail level: close the water with grace
Stability: 27" width behind the feet to ensure narrow catch
Hull level: rounded for the most speed or flat for the most amount of stability
Directional: simply place a rudder and solve it all
Weight level: under 10 kilos - even at 18 feet in length
A well designed board like the above one (or even similar) would have old folks having tons of fun racing around the younger crowd.
After playing with fins, I plan on using my 23" Nelo board until my legs can't take it, and then I plan on on biking to build more leg muscles BEFORE retiring to more stable crafts.
FYI
I don't know if you tried the Maliko fin, but ads an amazing amount of stability. Speed decrease is truly minimal. The JL fin (HUGE MONSTER THING) has more stability, but heck, it's slow as mollasses.
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 03:50:06 AM
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 04:23:04 AM
I have more fins than I care to think about. Embarrassingly large numbers. The Maliko (which I have, of course) is a similar design to several, and is IMO a design that doesnt solve any particular issue. Plus it is crazy heavy and crazy expensive. In flat water you wouldnt be measurably slower with the cheapo plastic FCS touring fin in my experience. Ive got the FCS II Kalama fin on order so Ill let you know how that is when it arrives. It looks a fairly sensible fin for you heavy pounders, and you can just swap it in and out in seconds.
The VMG Blades Mako 37 is a fast fin in flat water, I find. Maybe youd have to step up to the 44 if you are a really big dude, but actually I could do with a slightly smaller version of the 37.
The SIC carbon weedless fins are a very good fast all-round design. Youd be welcome to try mine ukgm: I have three of the 8.3 versions but dont use any of them! Instead I use the 7.0 which is plenty area for me. But Ive only got 2 of those: they proved so popular that Europe sold out of them very quickly last time they were available. The new RS comes with the 8.3 unfortunately - too big for me but maybe perfect for ukgm and his paddle steamer on turbo stroke power :)
You really should be aiming to use the smallest fin you can get away with in flat water.
One of the things that Ive used in my custom UL is a 2+1 setup where the sides have no toe or cant. This improved the flat water speed very noticeably. I run little 50-50 trailer fins in them in flat water but if you are a heavy hitter you could use some 50/50 foil quad rears (which is what I use for downwind). supuk and I have come up with a specific fin design for this setup, and Im waiting for him to make them. But unfortunately the material he got sent to make them out of turned out not to be suitable. So its on his very long list of things to do.
But if you took an old board to supuk he could fit the same finbox setup that I asked for, and you could try it out. If you fit futures boxes you can use blanking strips to fill them if you dont like it, so theres nothing much lost except the cost of the experiment. But you will like it. Using one big deep single fin is sooo 2016 ;) :)
Post by: photofr on February 25, 2018, 04:33:49 AM
I love my Tiger fin - it's been my favorite goto fin, and the only I used for nearly 18 months. But here's the problem: fins must be adapted to the person's weight, stroke type, the board you use, AND the conditions you paddle in.
To my great surprise, as a blunt example (and remember that my Tiger fin has been my goto fin), that fin is WORTHLESS for the following application: my 135 pounds - on the Ace 14x25 - on flatwater.
Bottom line, try a friend's new fin on your board based on the conditions you enjoy most. I think everyone should go with the smallest fin they can get by without loosing too much stability & too much tracking.
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 04:37:30 AM
Oh and btw I made a mistake with the VMG Mako sizing above. Its the 35 I like, not the 37. IMO if you need to go above 40 sq ins in a single fin for pure flatwater then you probably need to be looking either at your technique, or get a board that suits you better (or both).
Downwind is another matter altogether, and the fin design should be completely different IMO. Having said that, I was paddling (UW, DW, crosswind) in very rippy 20-25 knot confused sea yesterday on my SIC RS and had a fin with area of only 34sq ins and I wouldnt have needed a bigger fin, it felt pretty much perfect, and the narrow base helped going crosswind a lot.
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 05:50:20 AM
I get the feeling that, as with paddle blades, the trend is to be going smaller.
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on February 25, 2018, 05:56:26 AM
It those kinds of gains are typical, then this rounder hull design might really catch on. Looks similar to the soft-railed NSP dugouts. Wonder how it compares with them in terms of shape details and speed.
Post by: mr_proper on February 25, 2018, 06:58:00 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/cf085e7f850ca6c2ace8a41827f8221f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/55d0b0997ee85b10519d799956340eb3.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/7bee1019b57387b2a9b6c2c63e4d7d57.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/3948c4e5432a089744aa56f324bf9e32.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/75e7d9b88a23b9da950395d9a40ff6ee.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/9d07911dba5080c686d8048c5ee02653.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/02d316441e897644ecf7e6fda45a7947.jpg)
Post by: photofr on February 25, 2018, 08:17:20 AM
I just came out of the water as well - it was cold, it was still very fun and in good company, but I wish I had my Nelo board.
The images you have are some of the best photos TO DATE - and anywhere. Thanks again for sharing!
Post by: Luc Benac on February 25, 2018, 08:43:30 AM
It could actually be a pretty good fin for speed on flat turning to choppy.
Need to squeeze Burchas for the details:
https://www.facebook.com/larry.w.allison/videos/10213777824912942/?t=15 (https://www.facebook.com/larry.w.allison/videos/10213777824912942/?t=15)
Post by: warmuth on February 25, 2018, 08:56:18 AM
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 09:23:00 AM
I still have no clue how you guys measure fins faster or slower than one another. I just got done comparing boards and swapped fins half way through, no real change. Even runs with the same fin were difficult to reproduce and that is just for .1 mile sprints. I am considering getting a small fin like a manta just to have another option to try and perhaps gain some of this hidden speed. I once tested my whiplash with different fin configurations and speed didnt measurably change, handling did slightly.Yes, the gains are small. It takes a lot of patience and time to spot speed changes, and you need a proper experimental design and ideally several paddlers and boards. However, handling differences should be pretty obvious if you are doing things like surfing or technical races.
Theres a huge amount of BS spoken about fins. The basic principles are fairly simple. Beyond that it all gets a bit hazy. And in the final analysis, each person had their own handling preferences. For instance, many people find that long base fins aid tracking. But I dont. In fact I find it easier to keep the board going where I want it to go with a narrow base fin. I have some theories about why this might be, but I doubt anyone in the world could tell me for sure.
Yes, that Nelo looks stunning. It would be great to have a brand producing light and durable boards at reasonable prices.
Btw, this lightcorp/nelo board certainly challenges the Starboard etc myth that you cant have a proper paint job on a board and still have it light... no brushed carbon (aka sh**ty paint job) nonsense here!
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 09:53:03 AM
I still have no clue how you guys measure fins faster or slower than one another. I just got done comparing boards and swapped fins half way through, no real change. Even runs with the same fin were difficult to reproduce and that is just for .1 mile sprints. I am considering getting a small fin like a manta just to have another option to try and perhaps gain some of this hidden speed. I once tested my whiplash with different fin configurations and speed didnt measurably change, handling did slightly.
As a few people know, I did manage to do this and had an online article or two on it. I now also have an open access scientific journal paper coming out in spring on the subject too.
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 10:00:35 AM
...and lets not forget that at the 2016 ISA World championships in Fiji, Casper Steinfath won the technical race on a fin with area of only 28 sq ins. And he will generate more power at the blade than any of us.
I get the feeling that, as with paddle blades, the trend is to be going smaller.
Well, its power to weight remember. I put more power out on a bike than several top drawer Tour de France competitors but then I weigh 30kg more than they do. ;-) Casper is a lot smaller than me so whether he does put out more torque than someone like me at the blade isnt guaranteed but going by when I met him last year, he looked about 20kg lighter than me and had a significantly more efficient stroke. Thats going to help. The only reason I suspect the Maliko was fractionally better than the tiger was that the smaller fin magnified my less effective stroke. The scaling fin to paddler thing is something John Becker used to talk about if I recall correctly. Small fins are low drag but you need a great stroke to match it.
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 10:25:00 AM
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 10:32:17 AM
Well, I agree to an extent but this is only one of the factors to consider, and it might not be the most important one. Consider what happens to the fin when a board moves off its axis, first in terms of roll, and then in terms of yaw. Now consider the different effects of a fin that is (a) deep vs. shallow; (b) lots of rake vs. Upright; (c) long base vs. short base. You might want to dragging a few fins along in a deep bath to see what I mean :)...and lets not forget that at the 2016 ISA World championships in Fiji, Casper Steinfath won the technical race on a fin with area of only 28 sq ins. And he will generate more power at the blade than any of us.Well, its power to weight remember. I put more power out on a bike than several top drawer Tour de France competitors but then I weigh 30kg more than they do. ;-) Casper is a lot smaller than me so whether he does put out more torque than someone like me at the blade isnt guaranteed but going by when I met him last year, he looked about 20kg lighter than me and had a significantly more efficient stroke. Thats going to help. The only reason I suspect the Maliko was fractionally better than the tiger was that the smaller fin magnified my less effective stroke. The scaling fin to paddler thing is something John Becker used to talk about if I recall correctly. Small fins are low drag but you need a great stroke to match it.
I get the feeling that, as with paddle blades, the trend is to be going smaller.
In this way, the right fin for you may be more about how much you can keep the board on an even keel (and avoid yaw). This much you will probably already accept. But it is the solution I am offering that might surprise you:
You introduce a lot of steer with a deep, raked, wide base fin if you move off an even keel (or if you yaw) and at the same time you make corrections to the direction of the nose more difficult, since a bigger fin resists correction. I see many people going for bigger, deeper and more raked fins thinking that this will improve their tracking. But actually it often has exactly the *opposite* effect. Its counterintuitive I know, but sometimes less is more. In flatwater, big fins dont so much compensate for poor form as exaggerate it.
So if you are weaving all over the shop like a drunk with a limp, then try a smaller, narrower-based fin in combination with trying not to wobble your board.
Post by: warmuth on February 25, 2018, 12:21:13 PM
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2018, 12:28:01 PM
I was never a big fan of the ventral fin in flat water because of that. Countersteering was much harder and if the wind was blowing it was worse.Yes, thats right.
Let your blade and rails do the steering for you, not your fin.
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 03:06:29 PM
Going from 8.9 kph average on the AllStar to 9.3 kph average on the new board sounds very impressive.No anecdotes yet of being mid pack in a race on one though.....
It those kinds of gains are typical, then this rounder hull design might really catch on. Looks similar to the soft-railed NSP dugouts. Wonder how it compares with them in terms of shape details and speed.
Post by: Eagle on February 25, 2018, 03:33:51 PM
Post by: Larry Allison on February 25, 2018, 03:37:08 PM
Post by: Luc Benac on February 25, 2018, 03:39:31 PM
As a few people know, I did manage to do this and had an online article or two on it. I now also have an open access scientific journal paper coming out in spring on the subject too.
Don't forget to let us know about it, even if you cannot post it here for sponsoring reasons.
Post by: warmuth on February 25, 2018, 04:09:27 PM
Have not been here for awhile because alot of you know pretty good about fins that I taught you. But it seems people after time loose there way sort a speak, no disrespect. But while everyone is talking about fin shapes and what is right and what is wrong. The FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT THING IS FIN BOX PLACEMENT! If you don't understand that fin box placement dictates fin size and rake which dictates PERFORMANCE! Then you can forget about using the right fin! That is why it drives me crazy that people talk about my Ventral fin Concept when they never used it or they tried a version from someone else where the Fin Box was in the wrong place and didn't follow my instructions with the wrong fin. What I will say about this board company Nelo, they are the first to understand fin box place judging by where I see their fin box placed. Which means if you run a fin with a short core length and shallow with less surface area, you will burn out and spend more time in the water if you are not paddling in a Lagoon. Pretty simple fins have a purpose to balance of steering a board. As the boards become Higher volume and sit higher on water the fin will become a KEY piece and not a single fin because unless you are a balance champ then fighting a PIVOT POINT which is a single fin is a whole other issue.
Infinity may have installed my ventral fin improperly, cant claim to have ever measured it. Perhaps they did and there are only pros to using one. I experienced both pros and cons.
Post by: Larry Allison on February 25, 2018, 04:17:45 PM
Have not been here for awhile because alot of you know pretty good about fins that I taught you. But it seems people after time loose there way sort a speak, no disrespect. But while everyone is talking about fin shapes and what is right and what is wrong. The FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT THING IS FIN BOX PLACEMENT! If you don't understand that fin box placement dictates fin size and rake which dictates PERFORMANCE! Then you can forget about using the right fin! That is why it drives me crazy that people talk about my Ventral fin Concept when they never used it or they tried a version from someone else where the Fin Box was in the wrong place and didn't follow my instructions with the wrong fin. What I will say about this board company Nelo, they are the first to understand fin box place judging by where I see their fin box placed. Which means if you run a fin with a short core length and shallow with less surface area, you will burn out and spend more time in the water if you are not paddling in a Lagoon. Pretty simple fins have a purpose to balance of steering a board. As the boards become Higher volume and sit higher on water the fin will become a KEY piece and not a single fin because unless you are a balance champ then fighting a PIVOT POINT which is a single fin is a whole other issue.
Infinity may have installed my ventral fin improperly, cant claim to have ever measured it. Perhaps they did and there are only pros to using one. I experienced both pros and cons.
You are right early on some of the Customs were done wrong. The production boards of today are right. 20" forward of the balance point of the board to the back of the Ventral box. Mahalo, for sharing.
Post by: burchas on February 25, 2018, 06:17:40 PM
The FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT THING IS FIN BOX PLACEMENT! If you don't understand that fin box placement dictates fin size and rake which dictates PERFORMANCE! Then you can forget about using the right fin!
Need to squeeze Burchas for the details:
I experienced it first hand with my new board! Fin box placement is radically different from all the other boards I have that none of my fins worked for me, and if you know me
you know I have a lot of those.
I'm specifically referring to downwind conditions, it really sucked for me with the new board and I wasn't having fun, I kept missing bumps and
connections and I felt my timing is really screwed up, so much that I could no longer blame my mediocre technic and conditioning.
Instead of boring you with all the details I'll just say that in my frustration I turned to Larry Allison, explained him the situation gave him the specs and described the results with all his other
fins that I've tried and ask him to help out. This is how the GTX came about. I'll let the results speak:
I did the same run day after day. about 5.7 mile, shallow water bay conditions with very choppy crossed-up sections, average 15 knots wind.
Attached 2 screenshots from the Garmin for comparison... Draw your own conclusions, I'll just say that the other fin was the Spartan, which was my go to fin for these conditions.
Here is a video of the day with the GTX. I won't include the video from the day with the Spartan because it involves a lot of profanity caught on camera.
https://youtu.be/boN5djsEzkY
Post by: Luc Benac on February 25, 2018, 06:44:35 PM
Instead of boring you with all the details I'll just say that in my frustration I turned to Larry Allison, explained him the situation gave him the specs and described the results with all his otherfins that I've tried and ask him to help out. This is how the GTX came about.
I want to be bored with the details and all the reasoning behind the design of the fin and the intended purpose. I love that kind of rationale.
Post by: burchas on February 25, 2018, 09:38:14 PM
Instead of boring you with all the details I'll just say that in my frustration I turned to Larry Allison, explained him the situation gave him the specs and described the results with all his otherfins that I've tried and ask him to help out. This is how the GTX came about.
I want to be bored with the details and all the reasoning behind the design of the fin and the intended purpose. I love that kind of rationale.
I went about it the same way I did my my all-water ocean board. I needed an ocean fin that complements my shortcomings, if I'm not having fun I'm less motivated to make progress.
I tried just about any fin I thought would fit the bill (and even some I didn't), I narrowed it down to 3 fins that kind of had something going for them but just wasn't right:
1) GT Moray 8.5" deep 6.5" base - I could work with it if conditions was really lined-up but but at 39sqi felt under finned and too loose to control off the tail.
2) Ninja 10" deep 9" Base 54sqi - Felt great on lively ocean but in downwind conditions felt over finned and too much direction, the board wasn't responsive enough
3) Spartan 7.5" deep 7.75" base 50sqi - Didn't have enough roll resistance in lively water but have much better control off the tail
My thought was to build on the base of the Ninja but take it a little further at 10.5" base in order to compensate for bad timing
Then have little more thicker transition area going to the bottom end where I felt that 8.5" with the extra surface area and the
added flex profile would be deep enough to mitigate the roll and finally take the leading edge of the Spartan which is slightly
more upright for better surf feel.
As of yet, I have not had the chance to test it on lively atlantic ocean downwind conditions, but from the miles I've put on it, I can tell it's
a big improvement over any other fin I've tested for general ocean usage, I'll have my final answer when South Florida decides to grace
me with a right wind direction for doing an ocean run, unfortunately it's not a common phenomenon down here, so who knows when that might happen.
That's about as long as I can do in one go without boring my self and lose the line of thought ;)
Post by: Luc Benac on February 25, 2018, 10:12:35 PM
Post by: Luc Benac on February 25, 2018, 10:19:21 PM
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2018, 11:26:56 PM
The Nelo panel vee at the tail should provide some stability but the fin box looks well forward so that may affect straight line speed. It does look to uave a nice high quality finish to the board like the Think. Will be interesting to get your feedback ukgm after you put it through some tests. Bit off topic but have you had a chance to do any multi-fin tests with your All Star? You should be in a very good position to compare the 2 boards like proper soon enough.
Yep, it's been a question of weather. Until things calm down and I get stable and low wind from the west, I can't test (that's to do with providing stable conditions at my test venue). I've done lots of informal time time trials but it's just the drag test data I now need to complete my thoughts on the subject.
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 02:17:44 AM
You cant beat a nice 10 Squirrel cutaway fin (or a FCS Fat Boy) in those conditions IMO. And Im not the only one who thinks this:
http://www.longboardhouse.com/Longboard-House--Squirrel-Cutaway-Fin-8-9_p_604.html
But weve done this one to death a thousand times, and talking about DW/ocean fins is drifting away from the topic of this thread quite a bit.
So, returning (slightly) to the topic, the K15 was the first rounded hull concept flat water SUP to be sold widely. That board had a tiny area narrow based fin. In fact it had a stupidly small fin box on it that people used to complain about because none of their fins would fit. A few locally had a new 10 finbox fitted so they could use a bigger area fin to dampen the inherent rolliness of the rounded (convex) hull design.
But the designer, Jim Drake, knew a thing or two about the dynamics of flow, so this is worth bearing in mind when thinking about fins on the lightcorp/Nelo. IMO some people can cope with roll well, and even quite like it (like Travis Grant). But some find it very hard to deal with. If you are in the latter category then I dont think that adding mega-finage to the board is ever going to help you overcome that handling characteristic enough, but what it will probably do is ruin the purity of the design.
With talk of 500m sprints in flat water run by a Canoe federation, boards built by canoeists and rounded hull boards, we are of course taking a big step towards what Jim Terrell warned us about a long time ago:
http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/
But SUP has shifted since then. It has become such a broad church that divisions seem almost inevitable. So maybe it is important for the development of SUP that there is a faction that goes towards something that looks more like Olympic Sprint Canoe standing up. Maybe then those people will drop a knee and revive Olympic Sprint Canoe, because heaven only knows thats dying off.
Then there will be total coherence in that realm: boards that look like canoes, built by people who make canoes, used in races that are run by canoeists, using formats similar to Canoe competition formats.
In this way, in time, this thread could come to have significance for the development of SUP as a competitive sport. Well be looking back on it and saying this was the turning point: the point where SUPs built by Canoe/surfski builders started to be bought by average Joe consumers, and (fairly) ordinary racers started to express an interest in Olympic Canoe type event formats.
Post by: mr_proper on February 26, 2018, 02:37:45 AM
If you are in the latter category then I dont think that adding mega-finage to the board is ever going to help you overcome that handling characteristic enough, but what it will probably do is ruin the purity of the design.
I have no idea about Finns and paddle on every board only the serial fin. One time I mounted a larger fin (Future Fin Triangle Cutaway Medium) at a 14x23 Sprint (2016) and for me the board worked not really good. Primary stability might have been a little better, but secondary stability made it too sluggish. I then switched back to the serial fin.
The LightCorp Fin is ok, but it's a little bit heavy. They work on a lighter version.
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2018, 03:52:37 AM
With talk of 500m sprints in flat water run by a Canoe federation, boards built by canoeists and rounded hull boards, we are of course taking a big step towards what Jim Terrell warned us about a long time ago:
http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/
But SUP has shifted since then. It has become such a broad church that divisions seem almost inevitable. So maybe it is important for the development of SUP that there is a faction that goes towards something that looks more like Olympic Sprint Canoe standing up.
Then there will be total coherence in that realm: boards that look like canoes, built by people who make canoes, used in races that are run by canoeists, using formats similar to Canoe competition formats.
Scratch what I said. I've now found out this morning that I may well have got this all wrong and the formats may well be to everyone's liking. I'll know more soon. Or to put it another way, have a look at this:
https://www.canoeicf.com/stand-up-paddling-world-championships/esposende-viana-do-castelo-2018
..... then cross check with what other ICF sanctioned events happen to be on in Portugal on those particular dates..............
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 04:45:56 AM
http://www.icfsup2018.com/new/race_info/?tab=3
200m sprint, a beach race, and a distance ocean downwinder.
Im sorry for you. And for Nelo, because this format (excepting maybe the sprint) is hardly going to suit the owners of board we are frothing over in this thread.
Basically, the ICF have copied the ISA format wholesale, right?
Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)
Equal prize money for men and women. So get your hula skirt on ukgm, and you might just win 250 euros :) (Well, in the sprint, anyway, maybe.)
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2018, 04:48:40 AM
Is this, is it?
http://www.icfsup2018.com/new/race_info/?tab=3
200m sprint, a beach race, and a distance ocean downwinder.
Im sorry for you. And for Nelo, because this format (excepting maybe the sprint) is hardly going to suit the owners of board we are frothing over in this thread.
Basically, the ICF have copied the ISA format wholesale, right?
Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)
Looks that way. They'll bolt it onto the longstanding Summer challenge......... sponsored by Nelo ;-)
Post by: mr_proper on February 26, 2018, 04:50:40 AM
Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)
Maybe this one? http://www.light-sup.com/light-brushed-carbon-touring-race.html
But I think, it's not a Allwater.
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2018, 04:55:12 AM
Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)
You mean a hollow board that is for allwater conditions ? That is an exceptionally good guess. ;-)
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 04:58:50 AM
Nice looking board. But the weight, construction and cost means it looks pretty much a direct competitor of the All Star, SIC RS etc. Good luck with that, Lightsup..Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)
Maybe this one? http://www.light-sup.com/light-brushed-carbon-touring-race.html
But I think, it's not a Allwater.
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 05:00:49 AM
Yep, thats exactly what I meant. Hope it happens. When the Ace first came out everyone commented that it was a stand up Canoe, so this is a logical next step.
Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)
You mean a hollow board that is for allwater conditions ? That is an exceptionally good guess. ;-)
Post by: photofr on February 26, 2018, 05:17:43 AM
- Health: training, and staying in good healthy shape.
- Paddling more long distance: about 300 km per month.
- Flat water 80% (canal mostly)
- Calmer Open Ocean perhaps 20%
I really don't see myself racing for anything other than 30+ km races, therefore do not really see myself competing on many races.
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 05:25:22 AM
MY PLAN with my new Nelo board:Living life on the edge, eh? ;) :)
- Health: training, and staying in good healthy shape.
- Paddling more long distance: about 300 km per month.
- Flat water 80% (canal mostly)
- Calmer Open Ocean perhaps 20%
I really don't see myself racing for anything other than 30+ km races, therefore do not really see myself competing on many races.
Having said that, I found myself battling a F7 icy headwind yesterday, paddling alone on a canal, doing HIT-type training... kinda wondering what the hell I was doing it for though... no intention to race.
Post by: photofr on February 26, 2018, 05:30:20 AM
MY PLAN with my new Nelo board:Living life on the edge, eh? ;) :)
- Health: training, and staying in good healthy shape.
- Paddling more long distance: about 300 km per month.
- Flat water 80% (canal mostly)
- Calmer Open Ocean perhaps 20%
I really don't see myself racing for anything other than 30+ km races, therefore do not really see myself competing on many races.
Paddling, skiing, and biking mean a lot to me - and my health. So why the heck STOP ? :)
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2018, 05:40:48 AM
Yep, thats exactly what I meant. Hope it happens. When the Ace first came out everyone commented that it was a stand up Canoe, so this is a logical next step.
Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently :)
You mean a hollow board that is for allwater conditions ? That is an exceptionally good guess. ;-)
Your guess is accurate from what I have heard.
Post by: photofr on February 26, 2018, 05:43:07 AM
I just don't see it.
From my short experience working for Nelo (two years) - you'll probably notice that they most often think outside the box. They go and try things that work, they are innovative, and aren't afraid to take chances.
Take surfskis -
The 80's brought us skis that were in the 590 cm long.
The 90's brought us some weird skis that were sometimes 650 cm long.
3 years ago, most skis found on the market were in the 640cm length - but that didn't stop Nelo.
3 years ago, Nelo came out with a ski that was 560, another that was 550, and another that was 520. Each do VERY WELL in their intended use.
Reasoning
People are likely to copy Nelo with their SUP design, when they actually design a new model - just look around and see how many people have (all of the sudden) come up with surfskis that are in the 560cm range.
Why not an Ace-type board?
The answer is simple: SURFSKI paddling started with a hull that was Ace-like. That was back some 50+ years ago. Things have evolved, and the only - ONLY restraint right now are rules that prevent you from having a rudder.
Heck, flat water kayak racing (Olympic kayaking) used to have a fin, not a rudder - but even them have changed that, although they only go in a STRAIGHT LINE.
What will Nelo do next?
Unsure, but most likely start by showing off how a SUP board can be way lighter and way stronger - for starters. Soon thereafter, Nelo may continue their paths with SUP boards that no longer look like surfboards - that, to me, would be a given, unless you want to surf. The rest is speculation, but I have my EYES WIDE OPEN and ready to take it all in.
:) 8) :o ;D
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2018, 05:59:41 AM
You guys really think that Nelo will go the Ace (or similar) route?
I just don't see it.
From my short experience working for Nelo (two years) - you'll probably notice that they most often think outside the box. They go and try things that work, they are innovative, and aren't afraid to take chances.
Why not an Ace-type board?
The answer is simple: SURFSKI paddling started with a hull that was Ace-like. That was back some 50+ years ago. Things have evolved, and the only - ONLY restraint right now are rules that prevent you from having a rudder.
What will Nelo do next?
That's not quite what I said. However, look at it it this way, I'm going to hold off buying a new board for a few more months and I don't like using Ace style boards.
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 06:25:55 AM
The recent iterations of all waters race boards are actually getting quite good. Ive been hugely impressed by my new SIC RS, and even a big powerful paddler like ukgm would be stable and comfortable paddling the 14x24.5 version, which would have been totally inconceivable a few years ago.
And if you are an elite paddler wanting a DW board for typical European/Oz DW conditions, then the Ace is a hugely effective speed machine. Im selling an old battered one at the moment (14x25 carbon) and have had many enquiries. So its still a very popular design.
So, if Nelo want to throw away all that has been learnt so far, then good luck to them. I would have thought that creating a good flat water board would be more a priority. Thats where there is less competition.
On the ICF event, Im a bit sad that theyve decided to go head to head with the ISA like that, and steal their formats. Ive actually been quite convinced by the arguments Ive read recently for letting a inland/flat water specialist discipline emerge, that feels no shared history or allegiance with ocean boardsports, and was looking forward to watching how that developed.
Post by: burchas on February 26, 2018, 06:45:08 AM
But weve done this one to death a thousand times, and talking about DW/ocean fins is drifting away from the topic of this thread quite a bit.
So, returning (slightly) to the topic, the K15 was the first rounded hull concept flat water SUP to be sold widely...
I think we've covered this one to death just as much ;) Point is, at this stage where board is a done deal, the only thing you can change is the
fin (you can change the deck pad too but I doubt it make much of a difference :D )
Post by: photofr on February 26, 2018, 06:56:42 AM
I am not Nelo, and I do not represent Nelo in any shape or form. Heck, I don't even know what they are developing next. I can tell you this though: there's room to grow.
For instance, the Ace-Design does very well. Heck, so well that nearly everyone has copied it to a certain degree. However, just ask yourself this: is the Ace-Design the only imaginable design on planet earth? Heck NO.
Clearly, there are more ways than one on improving anything.
What is even clearer to me - and perhaps not so apparent enough to others - is that Ace-Designs have been used in the surfski world. Let me just repeat this: Ace-Design WERE USED for surfskis. Today, and for pretty much the last 40+ years, Ace-Designs have long been replaced with much faster designs. You want to go faster in Open Ocean, go with a surfski design. You'll glide better, you'll go faster, and you'll have more fun doing it.
Saying that Ace-Design is the fastest SUP design imaginable is locking imagination into a little box.
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2018, 07:23:07 AM
On the ICF event, Im a bit sad that theyve decided to go head to head with the ISA like that, and steal their formats. Ive actually been quite convinced by the arguments Ive read recently for letting a inland/flat water specialist discipline emerge, that feels no shared history or allegiance with ocean boardsports, and was looking forward to watching how that developed.
To be fair to them, they would have got stick if they'd gone for a rowing-esque sanitised lane knockout format so they couldn't win either way (but yes, I'm disappointed personally). Not only that, the ISA don't do official sprints or a downwind events at their worlds ? The irony being here, the proposed ICF event is more all encompassing of the ocean environment than the ISA event. Who'd have seen that one coming ?
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 08:13:52 AM
the ISA don't do official sprints or a downwind events at their worlds ?
They'd have had downwinders if the weather had co-operated. The ICF will have to have a backup plan in Portugal too. Sprints, yes:
https://www.supthemag.com/photos/2017-isa-world-sup-paddleboard-championship-gallery-recap-results/
And who can forget this performance? Probably the most remarkable athletic feat I have ever seen in a SUP race (by Kai Lenny).
http://www.supracer.com/video-kai-lenny-stand-up-paddleboarding-race/
Unfortunately it looks like you can't post a direct link to a FB page here. But if you put
https://www.facebook.com
together with: /supracerr/videos/1174595722624477/
there's a video of Kai's incredible (flat water) 800m performance.
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 08:21:17 AM
The irony being here, the proposed ICF event is more all encompassing of the ocean environment than the ISA event. Who'd have seen that one coming ?Err... NO.
https://youtu.be/TLbaipKhE4U
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 08:24:14 AM
Saying that Ace-Design is the fastest SUP design imaginable is locking imagination into a little box.Who ON EARTH is saying that? You are just putting words into our mouths now. No-one here is saying that or has said anything like it. Please let's not stray into the territory of having arguments for arguments' sake.
Post by: photofr on February 26, 2018, 09:47:21 AM
Saying that Ace-Design is the fastest SUP design imaginable is locking imagination into a little box.Who ON EARTH is saying that? You are just putting words into our mouths now. No-one here is saying that or has said anything like it. Please let's not stray into the territory of having arguments for arguments' sake.
OKAY, maybe you guys didn't say that exactly, but the following was in fact mentioned:
"Expect a Nelo all-waters SUP that looks like a Starboard Ace imminently"
To that extent, and without trying to argue, I am simply stating that:
There is ample room for improvements on a SUP for flat water AND for Open Ocean, without the current Ace characteristics.
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2018, 11:29:01 AM
But I own an 14x25 carbon Ace yet have just bought an SIC RS. So that should tell you something.
And you wouldnt want an Ace for competing in the conditions shown in this vid. Here, low volume and a flat deck is king.
https://youtu.be/WSTIYCfQZAI
(Incredible footage of them surfing raceboards in that vid btw).
So no-one is arguing with you, photofr.
But the Ace is a great place to start if you were thinking about designing a rough waters board, and you were from a boat rather than board background. You simply cant argue with the results, over many years. This is of course exactly what Mistral did. In fact Ive got the actual Ace that the designers of the Mistral Equinox used as a starting point for their design. There are pencil markings of measurements all over it. The Equinox proved to be a highly effective rough waters race board.
And now of course there are clog designs everywhere. ONE, Sunova, NSP etc etc. All variations on the Ace concept, with a few variations thrown in (e.g concave vs. convex bottoms).
But maybe Nelo are e.g. going to bring out a board that is like an Ace in reverse, ie. pointy axe bow at the front, with a bit fat bulbous ass :) When the first pics of the Ace arrived many people mistook the tail for the bow :)
Post by: burchas on February 26, 2018, 08:46:13 PM
Is the fin box really far from the tail. I thought that the Spartan was super stable more so than the larger dolphin pivot. It is definitly rock solid when on the tail on a good fast glide on a steeper bump.
I missed that one. Yes the fin box is 38" from the tail. I too thought the Spartan would work, I've used it instead of the Dolphin Pivot on my tippy Red with good results, but it didn't do the trick for me
on the unlimited.
Post by: ukgm on February 27, 2018, 01:20:36 AM
the ISA don't do official sprints or a downwind events at their worlds ?
They'd have had downwinders if the weather had co-operated. The ICF will have to have a backup plan in Portugal too. Sprints, yes:
https://www.supthemag.com/photos/2017-isa-world-sup-paddleboard-championship-gallery-recap-results/
And who can forget this performance? Probably the most remarkable athletic feat I have ever seen in a SUP race (by Kai Lenny). http://www.supracer.com/video-kai-lenny-stand-up-paddleboarding-race/
there's a video of Kai's incredible (flat water) 800m performance.
True, but these aren't specifically titled events as such i.e. world sprints champions, world downwind champion, etc ? The ICF is taking a much more prescribed (or is it contrived ? - you decide) approach to SUP racing.
Your point is valid about being able to guarantee conditions to do so though but it should be noted that this championships is being bolted onto the Nelo Summer challenge event which has been run as a downwind surfski race for some years successfully. It could be argued that's the ICF doing it on the cheap (as the current event organiser will be dealing with it rather than the ICF managing a standalone event) but I can say from friends that this event is extremely well run and with a good track record. If the ICF go open entry (and that's what the insiders are telling me), then that's a smart move and one that will help get the deepest field possible without the typically political national team selections (and will also help bankroll it due to the extra numbers present).
Post by: Luc Benac on February 27, 2018, 07:47:55 AM
Is the fin box really far from the tail. I thought that the Spartan was super stable more so than the larger dolphin pivot. It is definitly rock solid when on the tail on a good fast glide on a steeper bump.
I missed that one. Yes the fin box is 38" from the tail. I too thought the Spartan would work, I've used it instead of the Dolphin Pivot on my tippy Red with good results, but it didn't do the trick for me
on the unlimited.
38" yes that is some way. BTW when measuring is it customary to measure from the back, the front or the middle of the fin box?
I remember some indications given by Larry about the depth of the fin been related with the placement of the fin box i.e. closer to the tail shorter the fin but I cannot find the post again and it might have been on FB.
Post by: burchas on February 27, 2018, 10:30:42 AM
Is the fin box really far from the tail. I thought that the Spartan was super stable more so than the larger dolphin pivot. It is definitly rock solid when on the tail on a good fast glide on a steeper bump.
I missed that one. Yes the fin box is 38" from the tail. I too thought the Spartan would work, I've used it instead of the Dolphin Pivot on my tippy Red with good results, but it didn't do the trick for me
on the unlimited.
38" yes that is some way. BTW when measuring is it customary to measure from the back, the front or the middle of the fin box?
I remember some indications given by Larry about the depth of the fin been related with the placement of the fin box i.e. closer to the tail shorter the fin but I cannot find the post again and it might have been on FB.
Yes, thats rule of thumb but tail rocker is a factor as well.
The reason for that is the closer to tail the more interference
With the release therefor youre force to go smaller otherwise
The board stalls.
Measurment from the back of the box.
Post by: Luc Benac on February 27, 2018, 11:39:47 AM
Yes, thats rule of thumb but tail rocker is a factor as well.
The reason for that is the closer to tail the more interference
With the release therefor youre force to go smaller otherwise
The board stalls.
That's it. Thanks for the reminder.
I always have to pay attention with my Vapor as the box is about 8 or 9 inches from the tail.
Post by: Area 10 on February 27, 2018, 12:17:11 PM
Yes, also tail width/volume. All other things being equal (which they often arent), it takes a bigger fin to control a bigger ass.Yes, thats rule of thumb but tail rocker is a factor as well.
The reason for that is the closer to tail the more interference
With the release therefor youre force to go smaller otherwise
The board stalls.
That's it. Thanks for the reminder.
I always have to pay attention with my Vapor as the box is about 8 or 9 inches from the tail.
Post by: burchas on February 27, 2018, 05:38:21 PM
Yes, also tail width/volume. All other things being equal (which they often arent), it takes a bigger fin to control a bigger ass.Yes, thats rule of thumb but tail rocker is a factor as well.
The reason for that is the closer to tail the more interference
With the release therefor youre force to go smaller otherwise
The board stalls.
That's it. Thanks for the reminder.
I always have to pay attention with my Vapor as the box is about 8 or 9 inches from the tail.
Yes, but less factor of depth as total fin area, which brings us back to fin box placement.
Post by: Area 10 on February 27, 2018, 09:49:45 PM
Well, it depends on the application, doesnt it? For downwinding you need a lot greater depth than for flat water. Depth will depend on rocker and fin placement (as well as how tall your fin is, of course).Yes, also tail width/volume. All other things being equal (which they often arent), it takes a bigger fin to control a bigger ass.Yes, thats rule of thumb but tail rocker is a factor as well.
The reason for that is the closer to tail the more interference
With the release therefor youre force to go smaller otherwise
The board stalls.
That's it. Thanks for the reminder.
I always have to pay attention with my Vapor as the box is about 8 or 9 inches from the tail.
Yes, but less factor of depth as total fin area, which brings us back to fin box placement.
Post by: ukgm on February 28, 2018, 01:08:22 AM
MY PLAN with my new Nelo board:
- Health: training, and staying in good healthy shape.
- Paddling more long distance: about 300 km per month.
- Flat water 80% (canal mostly)
- Calmer Open Ocean perhaps 20%
I really don't see myself racing for anything other than 30+ km races, therefore do not really see myself competing on many races.
The feedback I really want to see is what is this board like in cross-chop or in a drafting situation ?
Post by: photofr on February 28, 2018, 01:25:03 AM
Here's something that YOU WON'T WANT TO TAKE SERIOUSLY
My next board?
It's going to be an Ace-Like-Shape for calmer waters, because I can let someone else do all the work for 17km (while drafting him). I am hoping that conserving all that energy will allow me to sprint away near the finish. For this, I will need to ensure that my new board can excel in drafting.
I won't need to worry about glide, I won't need to worry about durability, or weight of my board - I just need to make that the guy in front of me suffers the entire way while pulling old me.
I am certain that the above attitude will enrich the sport of SUP, and even allow SUP design to flourish to its fullest. :-[
Post by: ukgm on February 28, 2018, 01:41:42 AM
1) Perhaps the answers can be found when looking at the big picture, and since we cannot whitewater SUP, surf SUP, tour SUP, long distance SUP, flat water SUP, Downwind SUP.... with the same board, why would you want to have a single board do it all? Find me a bike that can excel with it all?!
2) My next board?
It's going to be an Ace-Like-Shape for calmer waters, because I can let someone else do all the work for 17km (while drafting him). I am hoping that conserving all that energy will allow me to sprint away near the finish. For this, I will need to ensure that my new board can excel in drafting.
1) ..... because if you go to an event like the worlds, you'll need a board that may have to handle a variety of events. That's why the flatwater board market is limited (with Naish dropping the concept entirely).
2) I actually agree with this to a point. It's why I opted for a narrower Allstar this year (and one of the boards I'd consider next year would be a narrower version of the same thing). Unless you're the kind of athlete who is going to be leading the opening kilometres, you're going to need to deal with major cross chop so a flatwater board may well not be the best option for mid pack athletes. However, for those people from a cycling background, there are tactical options to getting rid of 'tail suckers'. I had a situation last year whereby I has someone sit on me for 10km. In the end, you find you can verbally coerce them to come and take a turn or to drop back or I just physically stop paddling and panic them out. At a recreational racing level, that will work.
Post by: photofr on February 28, 2018, 02:03:13 AM
I'll be the judge when I get mine, but I can totally see myself drafting and even catching small bumps while using the Nelo board. Sure, it will be harder than drafting aboard an Allstar, but I have a hard time imagining that the Nelo board will be harder to draft with than say the Sprint 14x23, and even less so while using the Sprint 17'6" x 23".
The Nelo board seems to have quite a bit of rear rocker - thus perhaps opening the door to smaller DW conditions and drafting. Riders will have to adapt though, because the Nelo board is likely to feel completely differently than an Allstar board.
Post by: ukgm on February 28, 2018, 02:55:58 AM
I can totally see middle of the pack paddlers enjoying the Nelo board as if it were meant for them.I can't..... but that's why I'd like to see the feedback of being in that scenario. Either way, with a board like this, I wouldn't hope to be stuck in the middle of the pack in the first place.
Post by: mr_proper on February 28, 2018, 03:14:40 AM
Post by: Area 10 on February 28, 2018, 03:27:45 AM
Well, if I was in a race with you, and could keep up with you, Id just draft you all the way and then try to outsprint you at the end. If you stopped, Id stop. Id stick to you like a dingberry. You are a big powerful guy so would be a delight to draft. Thats the nature of our current format of races. I find drafting intensely annoying. So I put a metal strip at the back of my race board, so if someone drafts me I can stop suddenly and ding the nose of their board. It then gives me great pleasure to think of their board sucking in water all the way to the end of the race :)1) Perhaps the answers can be found when looking at the big picture, and since we cannot whitewater SUP, surf SUP, tour SUP, long distance SUP, flat water SUP, Downwind SUP.... with the same board, why would you want to have a single board do it all? Find me a bike that can excel with it all?!
2) My next board?
It's going to be an Ace-Like-Shape for calmer waters, because I can let someone else do all the work for 17km (while drafting him). I am hoping that conserving all that energy will allow me to sprint away near the finish. For this, I will need to ensure that my new board can excel in drafting.
1) ..... because if you go to an event like the worlds, you'll need a board that may have to handle a variety of events. That's why the flatwater board market is limited (with Naish dropping the concept entirely).
2) I actually agree with this to a point. It's why I opted for a narrower Allstar this year (and one of the boards I'd consider next year would be a narrower version of the same thing). Unless you're the kind of athlete who is going to be leading the opening kilometres, you're going to need to deal with major cross chop so a flatwater board may well not be the best option for mid pack athletes. However, for those people from a cycling background, there are tactical options to getting rid of 'tail suckers'. I had a situation last year whereby I has someone sit on me for 10km. In the end, you find you can verbally coerce them to come and take a turn or to drop back or I just physically stop paddling and panic them out. At a recreational racing level, that will work.
Post by: photofr on February 28, 2018, 03:55:32 AM
I once took great pleasure when someone was drafting me: I took him on a huge deviation - at a leisured pace - and then it was Sprint FULL ON for 20 seconds, rest for 30 seconds, sprint full on for 20 seconds / rest / sprint / rest...
After the 3rd time doing this, the paddler seemed so happy to have managed to stick to me - but I just kept doing it. I think it was on the 5th sprint that the poor dude's breathing was a wreck.
Sadly for him, I train that way - specifically for Downwind conditions - but sadly had to apply my training to him drafting.
Post by: photofr on February 28, 2018, 03:58:42 AM
I can totally see middle of the pack paddlers enjoying the Nelo board as if it were meant for them.I can't..... but that's why I'd like to see the feedback of being in that scenario. Either way, with a board like this, I wouldn't hope to be stuck in the middle of the pack in the first place.
Perhaps you didn't read the entire sentence paragraph I posted - but perhaps I didn't explain "middle of the pack" carefully enough.
You still can't see it with :
Middle of the pack, not IN A RACE -
Middle of the pack, alone paddling, on calm waters -
Post by: yugi on February 28, 2018, 09:58:27 AM
:)
I once took great pleasure when someone was drafting me: I took him on a huge deviation - at a leisured pace - and then it was Sprint FULL ON for 20 seconds, rest for 30 seconds, sprint full on for 20 seconds / rest / sprint / rest...
After the 3rd time doing this, the paddler seemed so happy to have managed to stick to me - but I just kept doing it. I think it was on the 5th sprint that the poor dude's breathing was a wreck.
Sadly for him, I train that way - specifically for Downwind conditions - but sadly had to apply my training to him drafting.
I bet the 11 cities race is as much, or even more, about the camaraderie and the friends you make than race results.
Just relax and have fun. Life is way too short my friend.
Post by: Area 10 on February 28, 2018, 12:40:47 PM
Oh sorry. I forgot - paddling has to be about pain and deprivation or its not real paddling :)
Post by: ukgm on March 01, 2018, 12:51:31 AM
Well, if I was in a race with you, and could keep up with you, Id just draft you all the way and then try to outsprint you at the end. If you stopped, Id stop. Id stick to you like a dingberry. You are a big powerful guy so would be a delight to draft. Thats the nature of our current format of races. I find drafting intensely annoying. So I put a metal strip at the back of my race board, so if someone drafts me I can stop suddenly and ding the nose of their board. It then gives me great pleasure to think of their board sucking in water all the way to the end of the race :)1) Perhaps the answers can be found when looking at the big picture, and since we cannot whitewater SUP, surf SUP, tour SUP, long distance SUP, flat water SUP, Downwind SUP.... with the same board, why would you want to have a single board do it all? Find me a bike that can excel with it all?!
2) My next board?
It's going to be an Ace-Like-Shape for calmer waters, because I can let someone else do all the work for 17km (while drafting him). I am hoping that conserving all that energy will allow me to sprint away near the finish. For this, I will need to ensure that my new board can excel in drafting.
1) ..... because if you go to an event like the worlds, you'll need a board that may have to handle a variety of events. That's why the flatwater board market is limited (with Naish dropping the concept entirely).
2) I actually agree with this to a point. It's why I opted for a narrower Allstar this year (and one of the boards I'd consider next year would be a narrower version of the same thing). Unless you're the kind of athlete who is going to be leading the opening kilometres, you're going to need to deal with major cross chop so a flatwater board may well not be the best option for mid pack athletes. However, for those people from a cycling background, there are tactical options to getting rid of 'tail suckers'. I had a situation last year whereby I has someone sit on me for 10km. In the end, you find you can verbally coerce them to come and take a turn or to drop back or I just physically stop paddling and panic them out. At a recreational racing level, that will work.
Absolutely right. I agree.
(my board got damaged last season on the tail due to someone doing as you suggest above. Getting rid of them in the end was simple maths but I let it go on longer than I should have done).
Post by: photofr on April 15, 2018, 11:48:07 PM
Before sharing my thoughts, know that they are just my thoughts, and the very first ones at that since I only spent an hour or so on the board. FYI, my board has been built, is ready ready for shipping, but should arrive next week Tuesday. In the meantime, the board that I tried was the demo board that already made its way to Northern France.
So... I get on the board thinking: it's gonna be tippy, it's gotta be tippy. To my great surprise: that thing is far more stable than my 17'6 x 23" needle nose / needle tail. Its stability far expected anything I could have thought. Anyway, that the very first thought that came to mind after just couple of strokes.
The second thought was: "the HELL" with all the people who say that a super light board is overrated. The ratio between my 60 or so kilos and this super light 8.9 kilo board was downright outstanding. My paddle, used as an anchor now has more than 5 kilos less to move ahead. That's just a huge difference - and that, my friends, has put a smile on my face (stuck grin for over an hour).
This amounted to full power ahead, unreal accelerations, ultra quiet movement through the water, and an insane glide.
Let's compare what is comparable:
This Nelo board (14x23) glides far better than my 2nd favorite 14x23 board (the SB Sprint). I mean, it's not even in the same ball-park.
Cherry on top: It's lightyears quieter in the water.
Needless to say, all the SURFSKI tests I have personally conducted on light skis vs. heavier skis over the years will transpose in the World of light SUP.
Without a doubt, I will see myself paddle my new 14x23 board in mid ocean.
Post by: Area 10 on April 16, 2018, 01:05:42 AM
But did you actually GPS the board back to back with another? Light boards *feel* fast because our perceptual system is more sensitive to changes in speed than differences in average speed. In other words, initial impressions can be misleading, and youd really have to try boards back to back over a fixed course in the same conditions to estimate the real size of the difference.
How does it handle for buoy turns?
Post by: photofr on April 16, 2018, 01:23:41 AM
The GPS tests will come, but I wanted to share that quiet boards do not usually feel fast. This one FEELS super fast, and when compared to K1 paddlers, a full on sprint let me know that this Nelo board was SUPER FAST.
These K1 paddlers are used to seeing a lot of SUP paddlers - they were blown away by this board - and it wasn't because I was in my best shape... or because I am one of the fastest paddler (the opposite will be far more accurate).
Just take it for what it's worth: a feeling.
Based on that feeling, it was a pleasure to paddle this board, and this feeling was the closest to paddling a UL. That's exactly the kind of feeling I have been missing from ANY 14' board in the past. So again, for what it's worth, it's a great feeling and hard earned money well spent.
We'll all agree: a good feeling is better than a lousy one... and a good feeling makes you want to paddle more often. It's all good.
Post by: yugi on April 16, 2018, 05:16:34 AM
...
Let's compare what is comparable:
This Nelo board (14x23) glides far better than my 2nd favorite 14x23 board (the SB Sprint). I mean, it's not even in the same ball-park.
...
impressive!
Post by: ukgm on April 16, 2018, 05:26:40 AM
"the percentage loss of speed is one sixth (0.167%) the percentage increase in mass"
Despite their hydrodynamic inferiority, I can't see SUP's being much different to this rule. The reality is that for anything other than sprinting, the reduction in weight isn't going to produce anywhere near what you think it will. However, it is important to separate any increase in performance due to a reduction in form drag or a reduction in weight. Any talk of increased glide is going to relate to the former I think, not the latter.
Post by: yugi on April 16, 2018, 06:28:59 AM
how come there aren't any fat coxswains?
Post by: yugi on April 16, 2018, 06:32:16 AM
Not bedunking your "placebo" argument, GM, BTW. It definitly is 90% of the game.
And BTW. The more you spend on a baord the bigger the "placebo" effect.
Edit to add:
Small light coxswains much easier to throw in the water!
Post by: photofr on April 16, 2018, 07:05:22 AM
Hello, my name is Vic. I am sorry, for I am an average paddler, sort of middle of the pack on a good day. I am definitely getting older. In doing so, I am constantly finding myself looking for easier ways, and more efficient crafts.
MOST WILL AGREE
"the percentage loss of speed is one sixth (0.167%) the percentage increase in mass"
I WILL TOTALLY DISAGREE
Because of the following reasons:
1. Extensive surfski testing has revealed that with my body weight (about 60 kilos) - I find that removing just 5 kilos from a 15 kilos ski increases my average speed an average of 0.9 km/h (that's nearly 1 km an hour difference!!!)
2. Because SUP is so inefficient compared to surfskis, I find that the beginning of each stroke is dedicated to getting my board back to speed, and 2/3 of my remaining stroke is where I get speed. Because of this, a SUPER LIGHT board allows far less effort at the beginning of the stroke, where I am now able to get real power RIGHT AWAY.
Keep it simple: just try to place an 8 kilo bag between your feet and take a GPS sample. Let's see if your loss of speed is really only 0.167% - based on a two hour paddle. Chances are, your data will reveal something very different than 0.167% loss - on anything longer than 30 minutes. The 0.167% rule is based on schematics dating back - way back - most likely derived by lazy people who didn't want to actually paddle for 3 or 4 hours while weighted down.
Heck, don't take my words for it... just go and make your own data by adding extra weight to your board. Keep in mind that when I add 5 kilos to my board, it's like most of you guys adding 8 to 9 kilos to your board. So go ahead, see real data that pertains to a "real you".
Post by: ukgm on April 16, 2018, 07:20:11 AM
^ so...
how come there aren't any fat coxswains?
Because the starting acceleration is a major part of rowing and a significant percentage of its race length. You don't want excess mass when you've got to start from rest. SUP races aren't the same.
Post by: ukgm on April 16, 2018, 07:31:38 AM
"the percentage loss of speed is one sixth (0.167%) the percentage increase in mass"
I WILL TOTALLY DISAGREE
Because of the following reasons:
1. Extensive surfski testing has revealed that with my body weight (about 60 kilos) - I find that removing just 5 kilos from a 15 kilos ski increases my average speed an average of 0.9 km/h (that's nearly 1 km an hour difference!!!)
2. Because SUP is so inefficient compared to surfskis, I find that the beginning of each stroke is dedicated to getting my board back to speed, and 2/3 of my remaining stroke is where I get speed. Because of this, a SUPER LIGHT board allows far less effort at the beginning of the stroke, where I am now able to get real power RIGHT AWAY.
3) The 0.167% rule is based on schematics dating back - way back - most likely derived by lazy people who didn't want to actually paddle for 3 or 4 hours while weighted down.
4) Heck, don't take my words for it... just go and make your own data by adding extra weight to your board. Keep in mind that when I add 5 kilos to my board, it's like most of you guys adding 8 to 9 kilos to your board. So go ahead, see real data that pertains to a "real you".
1) The noise in the data of outdoor testing on rough water would create error that could swamp the results. Without a good number of runs and the stated error bars, I think caution is advised. Produce the GPS data and lets review it.
2) This is possible in my mind - you might well be right in principle. I haven't got robust enough data for me to say otherwise.
3) I think that is unfair. That formula was based on research for the context of the length and type of event the craft was used in. I should also add it has been corroborated (or see slight variations). The real question is what you raised in no.2 - would a SUP buck the formula due to its hydrodynamic inefficiency ? I don't know.
4) I've done this. I downloaded the 'rowing in motion' app and checked the acceleration stats of my board. When I lost 6-7kg in weight late last season, my early results revealed an approximate speed increase that was roughly inline with that formula. I also know how powerful the placebo is - I trained for the last 8 weeks with three tennis balls strapped underneath my hull to improve my catch technique. As soon as you take them off you feel like you're flying and you sporadically set PB's until you realise why.
I don't doubt its a great and a fast board but I don't think the success you're describing can be attributed to weight loss. The shape is going to affect this but you can't separate the two. Plus without the data, its all just speculation.
Post by: Eagle on April 16, 2018, 04:05:57 PM
I don't doubt its a great and a fast board but I don't think the success you're describing can be attributed to weight loss. The shape is going to affect this but you can't separate the two. Plus without the data, its all just speculation.Pretty much most of the top race boards are of good quality and very fast with the proper pilot. Weight is a somewhat subjective value as one person can be the exact same weight as another but have a completely different body composition vs another. As well VO2 and power and strength and endurance and balance and skill etc factor into the speed equation.
A good way to compare is to get simple quick and easy sprint speeds to check vs previous data from other boards. As well get 5 miles average GPS speeds. We did this -> and it was clear which boards were fastest after adjusting for conditions and variables. Of course every paddler is different so results varied from person to person. A few speed tests online reflect significant paddler variances as well. BP did some back in 2011.
Actually when tested the 28 XOR vs the 25AS -> the XOR "felt" faster because of zero nose splash but actually was about the same speed. Would suspect the 23 Nelo to go ok and have ok build quality if anything like the Think hollow. But 23 vs 21.5 is a significant difference in efficiency for me when compared side to side. For flat water -> anything around 21.5 feels just so right vs 23. 23 is good for slop and chop for me.
A light board is good to carry and load and unload onto a rack. As well would say a light board is more preferable vs a heavy board to paddle for me.
Post by: photofr on April 16, 2018, 10:00:13 PM
Nelo 23 doesn't glide like a SB Sprint 23.
It glides whisper-quiet and seemingly with the efficiency of my UL 17'6" x 23".
Nelo 23 is very stable. So much so that after just a few feet, I knew I'd be taking this board in Open Water. I'd even take one step further, push the enveloppe, and perhaps hope for a 20" or 21" board for pure flat water pleasure. I mean, 23" for that board is super stable - so stable that I will have to carefully measure its 23".
I wasn't born yesterday, and I know that real measurements are needed. However, because I have been doing this for quite some time now, I am perhaps a little more in tune with "feelings". My main goal was to share immediate feedback after spending just a few long minutes on the board.
UPDATE - to clarify things
I attribute its great glide AND its stability to its rather super unusual shape. It has characteristics I find no where else.
Its weight will, without a single doubt, help me off the line and/or for any needed accelerations. Its weight will be welcomed when board handling, but will be fantastic on those longer trips. Its weight (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with its great glide.
Construction, BTW, above and beyond what was to be expected for some of the first boards. It looks like its been in production for years: flawless, super clean, and SOLID!!!!!
Last, but not least: when you try this board, or when you buy this board, one thing may really shock you: This board has a dug out standing area that IS NOT that deep (they could have dug out another 3 inches without any fear of reaching through). That seems great for heavier paddlers, so that they aren't constantly under water when moving below 6 km/h. For lighter paddlers, I think that you will be shocked: they really could have dug it out further, a lot further, and provide tons of additional stability by having your center of gravity lowered. One solution for heavier paddlers may just be a scupper / manual drain hatch. Either way, who cares... but you will no doubt find its standing area to be a much higher standing area than expected.
Anyway, until I (or any one else) shares hard-earned data....
Post by: Eagle on April 16, 2018, 11:11:15 PM
Overall tho the Sprint 21.5 felt good even with the slight splash up front. A 21 Nelo would probably be better for flat from the sounds of it. The 23 maybe good for more slop and chop conditions.
Post by: Area 10 on April 17, 2018, 12:02:58 AM
Weve also got to factor in the fact that photofr weighs about 25kg or something :) So, the weight issue for him is probably much more important than for a big powerful unit like ukgm. Some of us will be more affected by small changes in weight and form drag than others.
I really do hope that this Nelo is as light, super-stable-yet-narrow, incredibly quick, fantastically durable, and as reasonably-priced as photofr claims. We could all do with a board like that. But I guess that Ive heard so many claims like that from brands and their reps over the last 11 years that Ive become a bit cynical. Most design improvements seem to have been trade-offs and incremental improvements, but what Im hearing here is no trade-offs and game-changing improvement. I hope this is accurate, to restore my faith in human nature.
Post by: photofr on April 17, 2018, 02:33:47 AM
The Nelo board is a German design (Lightboard).
The construction of the mold, the craftsmanship, and the construction method is Nelo.
Based on the price of surfskis, this board should be in the 1900 to 2500 euro range. However, since the German company needs to also make money, the current price is in the 3000 euro range instead... but Even then, for a durable such as this construction method, I believe the price is still super fair.
On a different note, Nelo will MOST LIKELY be designing and building their very own boards... in the next few years.
Post by: ukgm on April 17, 2018, 04:08:29 AM
Setting the record straight:
The Nelo board is a German design (Lightboard).
The construction of the mold, the craftsmanship, and the construction method is Nelo.
Based on the price of surfskis, this board should be in the 1900 to 2500 euro range. However, since the German company needs to also make money, the current price is in the 3000 euro range instead... but Even then, for a durable such as this construction method, I believe the price is still super fair.
On a different note, Nelo will MOST LIKELY be designing and building their very own boards... in the next few years.
As I understand it, an allwater hollow board is due from Lightsignature shortly. That should be interesting. As it stands, once work calms down, I've got access to a Nelo board I can borrow. However, as I said to someone last weekend, designing a fast board isn't really that hard. However, designing one that can operate on a crowded start line or a race racked with draft trains is entirely different.
I personally think the price is too high though. It costs more than an elite level Epic surfski.
Post by: yugi on April 17, 2018, 04:15:50 AM
They claim just over 9 kg
Post by: ukgm on April 17, 2018, 06:08:55 AM
3600 Euro is about $4450 GBP 3100
They claim just over 9 kg
They may well price themselves out of the market in my view. They haven't got the established brand power within the SUP world so to go as high as something like starboard is a huge risk. The SUP market won't have a clue about Nelo's excellent build pedigree.
Post by: Eagle on April 17, 2018, 09:32:17 AM
3600 Euro is about $4450 GBP 3100
They claim just over 9 kg
They may well price themselves out of the market in my view. They haven't got the established brand power within the SUP world so to go as high as something like starboard is a huge risk. The SUP market won't have a clue about Nelo's excellent build pedigree.
Yeah that is a risk. This was the problem with Think to some degree. Fantastic build quality and fairly light weight -> but high relative cost for an unknown SUP brand. The Think is heavier than the Nelo as it is built quite robust to handle knocks and dragging onto rocks and sand. Daryl could have made it lighter at the expense of less durability. His 5 year old demo is not much worse for wear after substantial abuse from noobs testing and such. He wanted durability over feather light weight. And from my perspective -> I would take durability as well vs saving a couple of pounds any day. It weighs about what a full carbon board weighs. So not really heavy. In my mind it feels burly vs carbon.
Possibly when my Dom breaks some time down the road -> will probably contact Daryl and buy his demo from him. His build quality is that solid.
Post by: Area 10 on April 17, 2018, 02:10:27 PM
Its not that much more to pay than for a carbon Starboard in the UK. Its always going to be a tiny market that this kind of board will appeal to. I doubt youd sell more than 10 to the whole of the UK. But the people who are competitive enough to want one would pay anything if it is perceived as giving a genuine advantage. The problem Nelo have got is that without the marketing BS that some other brands use to flog sometimes iffy boards, theyll have to rely on word of mouth only. And that will mean that the boards will actually have to work in real world race conditions, not just on a deserted lake. But if it really is as good as photofr is claiming, then word will get around.3600 Euro is about $4450 GBP 3100
They claim just over 9 kg
They may well price themselves out of the market in my view. They haven't got the established brand power within the SUP world so to go as high as something like starboard is a huge risk. The SUP market won't have a clue about Nelo's excellent build pedigree.
Post by: ukgm on April 17, 2018, 03:06:12 PM
Its not that much more to pay than for a carbon Starboard in the UK. Its always going to be a tiny market that this kind of board will appeal to. I doubt youd sell more than 10 to the whole of the UK. But the people who are competitive enough to want one would pay anything if it is perceived as giving a genuine advantage. The problem Nelo have got is that without the marketing BS that some other brands use to flog sometimes iffy boards, theyll have to rely on word of mouth only. And that will mean that the boards will actually have to work in real world race conditions, not just on a deserted lake. But if it really is as good as photofr is claiming, then word will get around.3600 Euro is about $4450 GBP 3100
They claim just over 9 kg
They may well price themselves out of the market in my view. They haven't got the established brand power within the SUP world so to go as high as something like starboard is a huge risk. The SUP market won't have a clue about Nelo's excellent build pedigree.
It's pretty hard when starboard have such a stranglehold on the race board market. I don't think paddlers are that technology savvy or sensitive in the main - they'll paddle anything they can get a deal on I think. However, I do know that this board is going to be pushed heavily at this years inaugural ICF sup worlds. It's particularly handy that Nelo is one of the event sponsors.
Post by: Area 10 on April 17, 2018, 05:44:59 PM
The reason IMO why Starboards sell is simply that other riders see people winning on them. And Starboard have the best distribution network. So if people see Nelo boards winning then theyll buy them. It would certainly be nice to see the Starboard stranglehold broken -its just getting a bit boring. Maybe if Kai starts winning on SIC that might broaden the horizons a little. Does Nelo sponsor an athlete who is likely to be able to run with the worlds very best? How does this new board draft, buoy turn, surf, downwind, crosswind etc and all those important kinds of things for winning in the top international races?
Post by: photofr on April 17, 2018, 10:05:57 PM
Why should I really purchase a Nelo instead of a Starboard?
It came down to about the same amount of money, but with Nelo: I got myself areal built quality, and not a product that falls apart before the end of a single season. My Ace is fantastic on downwind, but durability just isn't there AT ALL - yet, I baby the freekin' thing.
So let me get this straight:
You get a board that is way stiffer and doesn't cost anything more.
You get a board that is built to withstand rail abuse / other abuse.
You get a board that is like 9 kilos instead of one that is 12.5 (that's just huge BTW)
You get a reputable construction from the biggest boat builder in the World - with an excellent track record.
** I expected the Nelo board to be something like 5000 euros - so needless to say, when I figured out that it was about the same price as other top boards, it was a "no-brainer". To each his own though.
Post by: photofr on April 17, 2018, 10:32:38 PM
I went for another paddle with the board yesterday late afternoon. Yes, the glide is still at the Rendez-vous, and it still feels fantastic. Zero regrets so far, but there's something else I'd like to share with you.
The standing area:
As you might know, there are two drain holes on the board. This board will drain very fast, but that's also because your immediate standing area is shaped like an inverted V. It's a bit odd, and will take some "getting used to".
Here's a statement that may very well prove correct:
Current top athletes using this board may have a clear advantage.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-May-22-Euro-Tour-Long/i-MtMSkw7/2/40a7a137/L/SUN-14-footers-0079-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-May-22-Euro-Tour-Long/i-MtMSkw7/A)
Post by: ukgm on April 17, 2018, 11:55:19 PM
ukgm - I dont think that your drive to find the best equipment for you is any different from other highly competitive person. A really competitive person would sell their granny for a 0.01% race advantage. Its an addiction, of sorts.
I'm not so sure as far as SUP goes at the moment. I think a lot of it depends on the paddlers background. Chatting to friends, I've found those from more of a lifestyle background are satisfied once they have a board at least the same as everyone else's. Its only those I find that have come in from technologically sensitive sports like triathlon that seem to be more pushy for the extreme. That all said, I have seen plenty of people pushing for what they feel gives them faster qualities, (such as narrower widths) until they go too far. Last weeks Head of the Dart race here was very interesting to see the trends.
Post by: ukgm on April 18, 2018, 12:00:36 AM
** I expected the Nelo board to be something like 5000 euros - so needless to say, when I figured out that it was about the same price as other top boards, it was a "no-brainer". To each his own though.
Well, you know what they say, you charge the maximum you think your market will pay. Starboard are already too expensive. If i can go out and buy a brand new V10 design surfski (that has only just come to market and has its own R&D to recoup) for 25% less than this board costs, Light signature are charging too much. I do agree with your bullet points though. The key thing for me are two you missed and these were:
a) Potential resale depreciation rate (I think this will struggle as nobody knows what it is)
b) Is it actually faster )nobody knows yet and no data has been presented.
I can live with a) being poor provided b) is true. I'm hoping to get on one of these boards shortly. However, my gut is telling me to wait for their allwater design first. I think that will be more raceable.
Post by: Area 10 on April 18, 2018, 12:29:28 AM
If youd have been racing in the UK since the first days I think youd have a different perspective. This is because of two factors. The first is that the only game in town in the UK is right now Starborg, pretty much. It wasnt always like that. Starborgs current dominance has lowered expectations and desire to experiment. In the UK, if you mention racing, everyone just thinks that means buy an All Star (middle pack) or Sprint (race leaders). Its almost like calling a vacuum cleaner a Hoover. Paddlers have given up trying anything else - which is also because of the failings of most of the other brands, several of whom have produced boards with major flaws, or that arent suited to the usual rather dull UK race formats and crappy weather (to match the failings of several Starborgs along the way).ukgm - I dont think that your drive to find the best equipment for you is any different from other highly competitive person. A really competitive person would sell their granny for a 0.01% race advantage. Its an addiction, of sorts.
I'm not so sure as far as SUP goes at the moment. I think a lot of it depends on the paddlers background. Chatting to friends, I've found those from more of a lifestyle background are satisfied once they have a board at least the same as everyone else's. Its only those I find that have come in from technologically sensitive sports like triathlon that seem to be more pushy for the extreme. That all said, I have seen plenty of people pushing for what they feel gives them faster qualities, (such as narrower widths) until they go too far. Last weeks Head of the Dart race here was very interesting to see the trends.
The second factor is the dominance of sponsored riders in the UK. Sometimes it feels like there are more sponsored riders than non-sponsored ones at a UK race. Sponsored riders paddle whatever they are given, rather than experiment to find the best board. This again has limited the scope and evolution of board designs and choices.
If we had another player on the market that provided a genuine alternative to Starborg, and was built better and at a reasonable price, this would cause a stampede of people broadening their horizons. In the early days all manner of brands, shapes and lengths were used and experimented with, and people would try anything to get an advantage. It could be like that again, especially if the race regulations and brand distribution networks hadnt ossified the sport. If Nelo can successfully bring totally new thinking and construction to SUP then it will make people once again wonder what is possible, and believe in more.
Post by: ukgm on April 18, 2018, 04:59:22 AM
1) Paddlers have given up trying anything else - which is also because of the failings of most of the other brands, several of whom have produced boards with major flaws, or that arent suited to the usual rather dull UK race formats and crappy weather.
2) The second factor is the dominance of sponsored riders in the UK. Sometimes it feels like there are more sponsored riders than non-sponsored ones at a UK race. Sponsored riders paddle whatever they are given, rather than experiment to find the best board. This again has limited the scope and evolution of board designs and choices.
3) If Nelo can successfully bring totally new thinking and construction to SUP then it will make people once again wonder what is possible, and believe in more.
1) I'm not sure that's true. The blame isn't on the paddlers - its on the brands. I could get on the phone now and demo a Starboard or a Naish locally within hours. Most other brands though have a crappy or non-existent demo system where you can't try what you want very easily and I'm of the mindset that if I can't try it easily, I won't buy it. If others feel the same, they'll buy what everyone else has and in most cases, that's an Allstar (although I saw a surprising increase in people with a Sprint last weekend). You can't blame Starboard for getting it right (or being able to afford to saturate the market).
2) This also is no longer true. As far as the UK goes in 2018, I know that Starboard, Naish and Mistral have all drastically cut their teams back to barely anything. They've realised that the return wasn't very good for the investment. Likewise quite a few paddlers have realised that it might be better for them to buy their own boards and ride what they like rather than being pushed to get a new one every year whether they want it or not.
3) I hope so. Coincidentally, I've just this minute been shown pictures of the Nelo 2.0 board. I'm very interested in that. The allwater board will likely be of even greater interest to me. I'm yet to be convinced that the market will be easily persuaded to move from foam blocks to hollow construction though. They are going to make a big push at the ICF worlds though and the european paddlers more familiar with Nelo in particular may be liable to be more interested.
Post by: SupSimcoe on April 18, 2018, 05:06:32 AM
Post by: ukgm on April 18, 2018, 05:39:06 AM
Where are the pics of the 2.0 board?
I'm not in a position where I can share them but apparently it launches officially this weekend. They'll have it on their website and social media. The original design has had some worthwhile tweaks it looks like.
Post by: photofr on April 18, 2018, 11:09:20 PM
Rider: about 60 kilos
Age: 50.0 (it was my Birthday)
Shape: getting back into shape, usually middle of the pack, or only slightly better
Board compared: Nelo 14x23 (under 9 kilos) - Ace 14x25 (almost 14 kilos)
Note: This is a loop I have paddled over 40 times on the Ace.
Conditions: Near-perfect, nearly dead flat.
I started a little slow getting a feel for it all, and definitely not planning to hurt myself. After merely 1km, I started to focus more on gliding with the Nelo board. Glancing at my GPS, I saw speeds that were constantly over 1.5 km/h or more FASTER than my Ace.
Mind you, I have done this 15 km loops more than 40 times, and yesterday, the loop started at the slowest of strokes.
Dont take this at heart, but please understand that when I came to shore, and saw that the end resulted was a total average speed of 1.2 km/h, I was blown away. Of course it was going to be faster... heck, my 14x23 Sprint was faster than my 14x25 Ace... but my point here is that my 14x23 Sprint was NEVER 1.2 km/h Faster!
Clearly, my legs got a workout... but thats me needing to get into shape anyway - so its all good.
I want to make it clear that I wasnt paddling at full speed - far from 100%. I finished the loop no more and no less tired than after the many times I have done this exact same loop with the Ace... the same boring loop.
Whats even more interesting to me is that based on my previous experience, I will only become faster on this new board - as with every single narrower board I have owned in the past.
Even more interesting: I knew that the Nelo was going to be faster, but I was willing to say a 0.3 or max a 0.5 km/h difference... grand max. Getting 1.2 km/h faster is unmatched on any tests I have ever conducted on a SUP.
Post by: ukgm on April 19, 2018, 12:00:22 AM
Heres the very first flat water TEST result for the Nelo board - from yesterday, April 18th.
Rider: about 60 kilos
Age: 50.0 (it was my Birthday)
Shape: getting back into shape, usually middle of the pack, or only slightly better
Board compared: Nelo 14x23 (under 9 kilos) - Ace 14x25 (almost 14 kilos)
Note: This is a loop I have paddled over 40 times on the Ace.
Conditions: Near-perfect, nearly dead flat.
I started a little slow getting a feel for it all, and definitely not planning to hurt myself. After merely 1km, I started to focus more on gliding with the Nelo board. Glancing at my GPS, I saw speeds that were constantly over 1.5 km/h or more FASTER than my Ace.
Mind you, I have done this 15 km loops more than 40 times, and yesterday, the loop started at the slowest of strokes.
Dont take this at heart, but please understand that when I came to shore, and saw that the end resulted was a total average speed of 1.2 km/h, I was blown away. Of course it was going to be faster... heck, my 14x23 Sprint was faster than my 14x25 Ace... but my point here is that my 14x23 Sprint was NEVER 1.2 km/h Faster!
Clearly, my legs got a workout... but thats me needing to get into shape anyway - so its all good.
I want to make it clear that I wasnt paddling at full speed - far from 100%. I finished the loop no more and no less tired than after the many times I have done this exact same loop with the Ace... the same boring loop.
Whats even more interesting to me is that based on my previous experience, I will only become faster on this new board - as with every single narrower board I have owned in the past.
Even more interesting: I knew that the Nelo was going to be faster, but I was willing to say a 0.3 or max a 0.5 km/h difference... grand max. Getting 1.2 km/h faster is unmatched on any tests I have ever conducted on a SUP.
If you get the chance again, perform the tests over shorter distances but with repeated runs (at least 4-5). 3-400m will do it. Try and fix your effort by setting a fixed stroke rate. That will reduce some of the error and placebo out of any testing. Based on the basic principles of what we know about hydrodynamics, I would be extremely suspicious about a 1.2kph gain - particularly when none of their team riders have shown such unusual gains when racing on this board.
Post by: Area 10 on April 19, 2018, 12:40:46 AM
Post by: photofr on April 19, 2018, 01:12:48 AM
Interesting. But why compare it to an Ace? The Ace is not a flat water board. You need to run the comparison against a cutting bow board. What youve done is the equivalent to comparing the speed of a 2-seat Ferrari to a off-road 4x4 on a smooth racetrack.
Indeed... however, read between the lines.
On an extensive test, based on 2 x 1000 meter runs, with a total of 6 boards and 6 people, we performed a grand total of 12 runs. Based on those short distances, we ALL found that the Ace was quite capable - even against the Sprint 14x23.
Its an entire different game when you compare the Ace 14x25 on longer distances.
Heres my belief:
People who regularly paddle with me will now have a really hard time keeping up with the Nelo, where I was smongst the top three of the group before.
Lots of people will benefit from the new Nelo board, ON THE FLATS, big or small, but the lighter and agile paddlers having zero balance issues will benefit most.
To this day, and as far as I know, no lighter paddler is using the new Nelo board to give a comparative on typical races.
There is nothing complete about what I did - but I have zero doubt now that this board is by far faster with me on it.
Post by: photofr on April 19, 2018, 01:17:22 AM
Post by: ukgm on April 19, 2018, 01:49:34 AM
Based on my GPS data of my Ul 17.6x23 on flat water, used on 1000s of kilometers, my numbers show that the Nelo board is very close to the speed and glide of that UL.
I can't dispute that but without some level of controls put in place with your testing (or knowing the +/- error), it could just have easily be consistent bias or a large error range meaning it isn't statistically significant. For example, I've been setting PB's all winter long on a board time-wise but once I'd looked in more detail and worked out any error, it turned out that much of this could be attributed to the effects of weather and different training I'd been doing. Having one set control (i.e. speed) isn't enough. You need at least two. If your fitness has changed, this could affect the results just as easily (or it could be a combination of a lot of factors). However, this probably isn't relevant to you since if you think its faster (and some speed indicates a gain), it probably is. I don't doubt you are faster on this board but I'd be surprised about some of the margins you're suggesting.
Post by: Area 10 on April 19, 2018, 02:36:27 AM
The problem is that your claims sound too good to be true. And you havent provided us with convincing data yet. For instance, with the comparison with your UL, it is likely that at only 60kg you are a bit light for an UL board that big. Plenty of women paddlers I know weigh more than you, and they find themselves really struggling on a UL. UL boards are only fast if you have the grunt to take advantage of the extra waterlength. If you havent then you are just pushing more board than you need. If you put ukgm on the Nelo and your UL I have little doubt that no matter how good the Nelo is, hed be faster on the UL (and probably find the paddling experience much more pleasurable).
So I think that you are either going to have to do a properly-designed and implemented trial, or you are just going to face a wall of scepticism that you are going to find frustrating. I hope you follow the former course, and Im sure wed be happy to help you with it.
My guess would be that the Nelo is about 0.3 kph faster on average in pure flat water than a 14x23 Starboard Sprint, with a fit 80kg paddler on board, but that advantage would disappear if the water got choppy or if the course had lots of buoy turns. Thats still a very useful advantage, if the Nelo doesnt lose too much to more compromise designs (like the Sprint) in real-world race conditions. Otherwise it will just join the pantheon of fast in a straight line on a rowing lake designs that have appeared over the last 12 years or so, and have left the stage unloved, because races the world over are not like that.
Post by: SupSimcoe on April 19, 2018, 03:45:32 AM
if this member wants to do more scientific tests then it would be great but do not attack them for not doing so. Remember that the reason we put so much into these pieces of carbon is to get out on the water and have a good time while getting in very good shape.
Post by: yugi on April 19, 2018, 03:58:29 AM
Our variance in laps is far too subjective and bound to be affected by our knowledge of what board we are on.
So I look forward to hear from photofr after a few weeks of group outings.
Glad you're happy with your board photofr. Would like to hear your thoughts on comparison with a Starby Sprint or NSP Ninja when you get the opportibity to jump on one.
Post by: ukgm on April 19, 2018, 04:38:10 AM
I would insist on having more than one paddler, but ukgm is more lax about these things :);D
I know you'll know this but my opinion of this is that this decision comes down to the research question you're actually asking. You are either asking the question "is board A faster than board B" or is "board A faster for me than board B". These aren't the same. In pretty much all cases for us as paddlers, its about the latter. However, brands would be more concerned about the former as they are dealing with the whole market. This is why my testing doesn't involve multiple paddlers as its not relevant to what I want to know. Considering my own testing can obtain a coefficient of variation of circa 3% (which is nearly on par with lab-based testing), I'm pretty confident on my process (however it should be noted that this is for flatwater testing only which as you wisely point out is not actually what most races see). There are some obvious caveats and limitations.
If you're right though and the gain of the Nelo is ~0.3kph, that is frankly game changing in my book.
I should add that I've been offered access to a Nelo and if I can just clear some of my workload down, I will test it if i can get it local to me.
Post by: yugi on April 19, 2018, 06:34:00 AM
Or is it just a myth?
Post by: ukgm on April 19, 2018, 09:58:25 AM
please test if red is faster too.
Or is it just a myth?
Well, if you think its faster or slower, it probably is.
Post by: Area 10 on April 19, 2018, 10:44:11 AM
Post by: Area 10 on April 19, 2018, 10:52:39 AM
It seems like we are taking this a little to far. I think it is nice for a member to review a board and give their feedback and experience. If it is much faster for them then it may be that it is just much faster for them. I know that I am quite a bit faster on a 25 inch wide board and if I went down to 23 and was on flat water I would most likely be even faster if I stay out of the water.Its entirely to your credit that you leap to photofrs defence - although enough of us have been on the receiving end of salvos from him to know well that he is perfectly capable of defending himself.
if this member wants to do more scientific tests then it would be great but do not attack them for not doing so. Remember that the reason we put so much into these pieces of carbon is to get out on the water and have a good time while getting in very good shape.
Have you ever watched a family argument start, in a family that is not your own? Without the perspective of the history of past discussions it often seems like everyone is over-reacting. I think that might be what is happening here :)
For instance, it wasnt so long ago that photofr was point-blank accusing me of lying. So if you engage with people like that then you must expect robust examination of your own pronouncements, especially if they seem too good to be true. But I am hoping he is actually correct.
0.3kph in undisturbed flat water wouldnt be that much of a game-changer if it was also 0.3kph slower once there are ripples in the water...
Post by: paulosup on April 19, 2018, 11:10:31 AM
First time posting here! I've been a regular visitor to the Zone but after reading about the Nelo board for so long in this thread I think I can bring some insight from Portugal.
I'm Portuguese and Nelo is one of the prides of Portugal, being a very successful case study, dominating the kayak production and delivering a high quality product.
However, regarding SUP I think they still have a very long way to go. I've seen the board a few times and I think I can give my opinion (although I haven't tried yet).
First of all, as Photofr said recently it is not a Nelo shape. The shape was developed by Lightcorp (a german or austrian company) and Nelo produces it. In Portugal there are only two C1 guys (from what I know) that paddle this board (Nelo lets them use it) and not one regular SUP racer uses it. The board is flatwater only: has zero nose rocker and from what I remembered the bottom tail is pretty flat also.
The two OC1 guys that paddle with it are in their early 20s and hold several national titles. They only paddle with it when it's really flat (river or lake only) and don't go out when it's choppy and never go out in the ocean (mind that although Portugal has a very large coast and almost everyone lives near the ocean, most canoeists here only paddle in rivers, lakes or canoe lanes).
I think design has one major flaw: the drain holes are located between the lower rails and the bottom, and instead of the water coming out of the cockpit, the water goes into the cockpit through the draining holes. Both riders use silver tape to block the holes.
As for the construction, and this is my personal view, I think a hollow construction like this is not suitable for choppy waters and ocean, and the board would vibrate a lot on these conditions.
Nelo is developing and testing a board that they claim will go to 18 km/h (and I believe it will) but its' basically a chopped off kayak from what I understand (and they don't have a SUP shaper or designer). Sure this board will be very fast, but it is a very specific board for sprinting in really flat conditions (no turning ability or able to handle the regular chop or the chop made by other racers at the beginning of races).
This is exactly what Jimmy Terrell told it would happen a few years ago in an article called The Death and Rebirth of SUP Racing (http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/): "were going to see our user-friendly sport slowly deteriorate from the threat of specialized, hi-tech equipment that doesnt have user-friendly shapes or consumer-friendly prices. Were going to see race boards that are impossible to paddle for all but the most elite, well-balanced paddlers. Well lose the accessibility that made this sport so popular in the first place."
At the moment the most popular racing shaps from SUP brands are the all-water boards and some brands even dropped their flatwater boards from the lineup or make them usable in not so flat conditions or even eficiente in the ocean.
So, this what I know about the Nelo boards. I don't know if they have plans to develop an all-water or ocean board.
Hope this helps in bringing some more information.
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on April 19, 2018, 08:15:53 PM
Something like 10.0 kph vs. 8.8 kph would really impress me. Something like 8.6 kph vs. 7.4 kph would not impress me as much. Because the dream is a board that can more easily maintain speeds above hull speed, which is 9.3 kph for a 14' board.
Post by: mr_proper on April 19, 2018, 10:31:07 PM
Draft works at least as well as with the Allstar and on my usual rounds I am about 0.5 km/h faster.
I have not raced a race yet, but a friend. Nearly 10 km with wind, with buoy turns and twice on land around a buoy. He had no problems and did not go swimming. There was a lot of 21.5 sprints and he could finished in the top 10 with his 24.75.
With the Nelo he has reached his highest average speed on the 10 km training round, which was 9.7 km/h. However, it is difficult to make a comparison here because the conditions often differ slightly. His weight is around 72 kg.
In terms of my size and weight, boat waves coming from the side are the biggest challenge right now.
The design of the drain holes has been changed so that some water actually runs into the stand. But it is by no means more than with the Allstar.
Post by: ukgm on April 20, 2018, 01:51:53 AM
Post by: Area 10 on April 20, 2018, 03:57:48 AM
0.5kph increase in average speed over an All Star in pure flat water sounds at the upper end of what youd expect from a high-end dedicated flat water board, but not at all impossible.
Post by: yugi on April 20, 2018, 05:02:08 AM
Sounds realistic.
Don't underestimate how much faster you can go when your wallet is $4500 lighter! In terms of lightness it's a win win!
Post by: photofr on April 20, 2018, 08:31:44 AM
If you want the details, keep on reading.
For those in a rush: I now have zero doubt that this board is the fastest 14' board FOR ME on flat water.
DETAILS
I am racking some serious miles on this new Nelo board. I can simply state this:
This 14' board is the second fastest board I have ever paddled in my life. The only faster one was a UL (17'6 x 23 with a needle nose and needle tail) and it wasn't faster by much at all.
However, I do believe you would have to be ME in order to benefit from the huge increase in speed. Let me explain here:
1. You'd have to be pretty light (under 140 pounds) to really feel the weight difference of the board. It will even be more noticeable if you have low fat to muscle ratios. With that kind of morphology, you'll feel like you constantly want to launch another acceleration. It's a noticeably light.
2. You'd have to be certain that you aren't experiencing balance issues. Anything other than well planted feet on the board, you are going to loose mega speed. The efficiency of the board will be thrown out of the window, the second you are hesitating on power. I believe that having paddled a needle board for so long in the Ocean has really helped me more than I can imagine.
3. I am seeing an amazing increase in speed (between 1.00 and 1.20 km/h DIFFERENCE) but pay close attention what I am measuring it to!!! I am comparing it to the only other board I own: a 14x25 Ace - a 2017 model. It's got a lot of rocker, it pushes a lot of water, it's heavy - however, it's not that slow on flat water (with the right person on it). I am however the WRONG person on the Ace (I am just too light). Because of this, it's probably making the difference in speed between the two boards even more obvious.
DOES IT MATTER THAT I AM COMPARING IT TO AN ACE?
To a certain extent, it does - but far less than you think - because the real kicker here is that I have not had such high average speeds with my 2016 Sprint 14x23 (that I had for nearly two years) or my 2016 Allstar 14x25 (that I owned for a little over a year). If anything, I am absolutely certain that I am in a freekin' loosy shape right now, yet, I am getting slightly more than 0.7 km/h increase in speed from anything I have done on my Sprint (comparing only flat water runs with flat water runs).
WHAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO ME?
It's not racing.
It's not buoy turns.
Glide (and efficiency) rank #1 in my books. Since I am now living inland, I will mostly find most of my pleasures in canals within Northern France.
Overall speed is important too though - so when I get on a board that is repeatedly over 1km/h faster than the Ace 14x25, you can just imagine just imagine my smile. Yes, I am still getting so close to the exact same numbers, even on my 5th session with the board.
IRRESPONSIBLE TESTING?
Yeah, these were some of the least scientific tests I have ever conducted. I gotta ask: so what??? These tests don't need to please but one single person: ME. Therefore, I don't need 5 boards, 5 people, and 5 hours to tests boards.
Just keep this in mind:
When I was in better shape, I racked more miles than most and obtained enough data on my 14' Sprint, on my 14' Allstar, and on my 14' Ace to clearly state a few things.
1. The 14' Sprint averages 0.7 km/h slower than the Nelo.
2. One of my best speed averages with the 14' Sprint was still 0.4 km/h slower than with the Nelo.
3. The 14' Ace averages 1.1 km/h slower than the Nelo.
4. One of my best speed averages with the 14' Ace was still 0.8 km/h slower than with the Nelo.
Note A: In all instances above, I was in better shape than since I have the Nelo board.
Note B: I only took flat water runs to compare what is comparable.
Note C: Only runs that were over 10km were used for comparing data.
You shouldn't ask yourself if you are going to or not going to get the same increase in speed with a Nelo board. I am MERELY sharing my enthusiasm and letting you know that I am blown away - for I have found a gem. I wish I had time to give you more scientific data, and put the boards through extensive testing, but truth be told, it isn't so easy for me to find people / boards up here - in Northern France. Essentially, I'll let someone else to let YOU know how this board might feel for YOU.
Stay tuned and I will tell you what I FEEL could be improved on this board.
Post by: photofr on April 20, 2018, 08:58:52 AM
It's down right amazing (for me) and while it's my very favorite 14' board for flat water, and while I take great joy to paddle it, there are still a few changes I would like to see on that board.
THE V DECK
It's a V deck, therefore your feet aren't flat. That is okay for short distances, and I while I do feel like I am getting used to that, I must admit that it's just too slanted, and it's just not as comfortable as what I am used to. The highest part of the board is in the center, and the deck then slants left and right from there. Think of it as an uncomfortable inverted V deck.
THE DECK PAD
You guys may not care too much... however, I love Starboard's deck pad. It's soft, and it's nice. Nelo is using the good old fashion diamond deck pad. It seems much harder, and perhaps not so comfortable with my weight. Either way, I don't like it much.
DRAINS
Water does come in the drains - but only at slow speeds (with my weight). I plugged those things with foam. I would love to see a better system for draining - and how about a one-way valve? At higher speed, or on a warm day, I don't find that to be an issue.
LEASH PLUG
Installing a frontal leash plug would be a welcome addition. Heck, installing a GoPro mount would be nice too so that I could use my surfski accessories on the board too.
WAVE DEFLECTOR
I want to see a wave deflector on that thing. I surfed a boat wake yesterday (totally do-able BTW, and super fun). The board takes off on a dime (probably its weight again - or lack thereof). However, on my first try, I made a stupid mistake and didn't take my step back - and therefore swamped the cockpit in a "flash". A simple wave deflector may do the trick. Thankfully, I have one more Nelo surfski wave deflector that I will be installing for open water. It should come as standard.
PRIMARY STABILITY
I am a sucker for primary stability. It means very little in Open water, however, it's that "reassuring" first and initial feeling you get as you first get on the board: and in this case, there just isn't much there in terms of stability when you first get on it. Meaning, I would love to see more primary stability, even at the expense of less secondary. Once you get moving though, there's tons of stability on that board, with or without waves... but you MUST keep moving. There's more primary stability on my Sprint 14x23, but this board is in part with the Sprint once it gets moving.
Clearly, there isn't much I would do differently for this board. I am just being nick-picking here. This board isn't cheap, but it's still cheaper than a comparable staby - though the construction of the Nelo board is far more sturdy. I should know, I have abused my Nelo surfski - made with the exact same material - and the thing still looks nearly brand new.
I am psyched !
Last items to point out:
This board will rock in the Ocean, and in even in small downwind.
This board is easier to spin than the Sprint - another "flat water board" that is used in the Ocean by pros.
This board will draft like - TOO EASY.
Good luck drafting me - with ease. :)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-Apr-18-Nelo-SUP/i-x3Hb5DW/0/ef177bed/XL/1456-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-Apr-18-Nelo-SUP/i-x3Hb5DW/A)
Post by: mr_proper on April 20, 2018, 09:37:50 AM
Don't underestimate how much faster you can go when your wallet is $4500 lighter! In terms of lightness it's a win win!
"We offer special teamrider discounts to active race paddles and canoe-sup clubs ."
https://www.light-sup.com/test--testimonial.html
So it isn't sooo much faster ;-)
Post by: photofr on April 20, 2018, 10:05:31 AM
FOR REF
For now, however, I am using their demo boards - until mine arrives.
(it's been built, it's ready for shipping... but I am still being hopeful that it will arrive within the next few days)
Post by: mr_proper on April 20, 2018, 10:51:33 AM
For now, however, I am using their demo boards - until mine arrives.
(it's been built, it's ready for shipping... but I am still being hopeful that it will arrive within the next few days)
Cool. Then you will probably get the new signature 2.0, which only gives it as 14x23.
Post by: photofr on April 20, 2018, 10:53:15 AM
Post by: mr_proper on April 20, 2018, 10:53:50 AM
Post by: mr_proper on April 20, 2018, 10:54:56 AM
Post by: photofr on April 20, 2018, 11:00:08 AM
Post by: JEG on April 20, 2018, 08:18:22 PM
Btw. mine has also the carbon drain tubes and is not a 2.0.
nice board, it looks like the NSP ninja and it could do with the better color and graphics.
Post by: photofr on April 20, 2018, 10:35:50 PM
Btw. mine has also the carbon drain tubes and is not a 2.0.
nice board, it looks like the NSP ninja and it could do with the better color and graphics.
They are both "SUP boards" but that is about the only extent of their resemblance. The bow on the Nelo board is inverted, the hull is completely different - in every way imaginable.
Color-wise, you can get any custom design you want when you order through Nelo. I opted for a simple graphic on a blue board - coming SOON.
For info... and unless I am mistaking...
NSP was working on their model in late 2016. They didn't copy Nelo.
Nelo was working on its Mold in late 2016. They didn't copy NSP (and could not have).
Post by: ukgm on April 21, 2018, 03:27:23 PM
I have mixed feelings about the higher sidewalls, especially with my lightweight and how the wind will affect me. I guess only time will tell.
I wonder if higher sidewalks could improve the stability ?
Post by: Area 10 on April 22, 2018, 03:00:15 AM
Of what? Pedestrians passing you by :)I have mixed feelings about the higher sidewalls, especially with my lightweight and how the wind will affect me. I guess only time will tell.
I wonder if higher sidewalks could improve the stability ?
Stability comes from what is in the water, not what is out of it. There are a couple of reasons to have high sidewalls but IMO stability isnt one of them.
Instead, its mostly about (a) achieving a low standing area while maintaining board strength and rigidity; (b) keeping water off the deck; (c) balancing out the windage of having a fat nose (ie. reducing weathervaning).
Post by: burchas on April 22, 2018, 10:13:27 AM
Of what? Pedestrians passing you by :)I have mixed feelings about the higher sidewalls, especially with my lightweight and how the wind will affect me. I guess only time will tell.
I wonder if higher sidewalks could improve the stability ?
Stability comes from what is in the water, not what is out of it. There are a couple of reasons to have high sidewalls but IMO stability isnt one of them.
Instead, its mostly about (a) achieving a low standing area while maintaining board strength and rigidity; (b) keeping water off the deck; (c) balancing out the windage of having a fat nose (ie. reducing weathervaning).
If nothing else, the sidewalls will increase your secondary stability imo. As far as I could tell, keeping water off your deck will add stability.
The last point about those sidewalls is their role in volume distribution so the added volume off the center and towards the rail will increase stability imo.
Then there is the matter of the added reserve Buoyancy but I don't think it really applies for the conditions this board is meant to paddle.
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2018, 12:50:03 AM
Of what? Pedestrians passing you by :)I have mixed feelings about the higher sidewalls, especially with my lightweight and how the wind will affect me. I guess only time will tell.
I wonder if higher sidewalks could improve the stability ?
Stability comes from what is in the water, not what is out of it.
That's not true because as a roll begins, more of the sidewall is then entering the water to then effectively provide resistance due to its flat face. It's also changing the position of the axis for the centre of buoyancy too (although I don't know how effective this would be with a SUP board).
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2018, 12:52:22 AM
Of what? Pedestrians passing you by :)I have mixed feelings about the higher sidewalls, especially with my lightweight and how the wind will affect me. I guess only time will tell.
I wonder if higher sidewalks could improve the stability ?
Stability comes from what is in the water, not what is out of it. There are a couple of reasons to have high sidewalls but IMO stability isnt one of them.
Instead, its mostly about (a) achieving a low standing area while maintaining board strength and rigidity; (b) keeping water off the deck; (c) balancing out the windage of having a fat nose (ie. reducing weathervaning).
If nothing else, the sidewalls will increase your secondary stability imo.
The last point about those sidewalls is their role in volume distribution so the added volume off the center and towards the rail will increase stability imo.
Then there is the matter of the added reserve Buoyancy but I don't think it really applies for the conditions this board is meant to paddle.
I think you said what I just did in a better way. :D
Post by: Area 10 on April 23, 2018, 02:40:15 AM
Imagine sidewalls 6ft high. Would the board be more stable? Try it and see.
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2018, 03:29:13 AM
Imagine sidewalls 6ft high. Would the board be more stable? Try it and see.
You misunderstand, Burchas and I are saying it is in the water. If the board rolled enough so that they engaged/entered the surface of the water, some of it would help yes. If you have a sidewall with an extra inch or two and the board rolls enough so that their face enters the water, it will create a rising rate of (likely) secondary stability. We're talking about mm's here, not inches. However, granted, if you're the kind of paddler that has possibly low torque and defiently great balance, no, it won't be as helpful in my view.
Post by: Area 10 on April 23, 2018, 03:48:01 AM
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2018, 04:24:52 AM
No, I didnt misunderstand at all. You just didnt think carefully enough about what I was saying.
Not at all. You said "Ok, Ill say it again: stability comes from what is in the water, not what is out of it." You made a strawman argument. We described when the board rolls in actual use so when (or if - depending on the paddler) higher sidewalls engage in the fluid, (not when its just sat there with the sidewalls high and dry). I agree that if the walls don't get wet, it won't make any difference. You get this exact scenario as a design feature in ocean ski design.
BTW, the attitude isn't necessary for what is only a friendly discussion.
Post by: photofr on April 23, 2018, 04:55:30 AM
Back in the days, we'd place our surfskis on their respective sidewalls in order to grain stability while on a run - DW. Choosing the angle was an art in itself. Amazing stability gain was achieved by this - secondary stability.
Personally, primary stability is what I prefer... though to each his/her own. For me, primary stability let's me find "my spot" from the second I get onboard - no pun intended. Speed and high RPM is where I gain secondary stability. Therefore, if I had to choose, I'd go with great primary stability, and below average secondary (hardly any sidewalls to speak of) for the added benefit of not having added surface area to catch wind. This is yet again, super personal... as there's no right and wrong here.
To claim that sidewalls are not going to and will not ever provide additional stability seems incorrect.
Post by: photofr on April 23, 2018, 05:00:50 AM
1. My fellow paddlers are having a hard time keeping up with my new board.
2. No one has made it in front of my board yet.
3. I am obviously more rested during and after each and every single paddle. I can tell because I am all chilled while paddling.
4. It is very clear to me that each of the paddlers are now struggling to keep up - without a single exception. This is clear to me because they are all out of breathe, FOR THE FIRST TIME.
5. I have not been out of breathe a single time since I got this board - while paddling with my buddies.
I am really appreciating the glide - and that's just an understatement.
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2018, 05:33:47 AM
I agree that the sidewalls can play an important part in secondary stability. Sure, they are mostly out of the water, so sidewalls (out of the water) do not count for primary stability. However, as soon as the board starts to roll, sidewall HEIGHT and ANGLE matter tremendously in obtaining that secondary stability.
Back in the days, we'd place our surfskis on their respective sidewalls in order to grain stability while on a run - DW. Choosing the angle was an art in itself. Amazing stability gain was achieved by this - secondary stability.
To claim that sidewalls are not going to and will not ever provide additional stability seems incorrect.
I completely agree.
(We used to do this as a drill in our surfski's back in my lifeguarding days. Once you know where the edge is you can feel the rising rate of the secondary buoyancy kick in as you lean the ski over and the higher section of the sidewall engages in the water..... until it doesn't..... and then you're out !)
Post by: burchas on April 23, 2018, 06:14:03 AM
Imagine sidewalls 6ft high. Would the board be more stable? Try it and see.
Not really a valid argument. I'll go the other way... Imagine no sidewalls at all.
Would the board be less stable? And yes, we are talking about this specific design ;)
Post by: Luc Benac on April 23, 2018, 07:32:00 AM
I agree that the sidewalls can play an important part in secondary stability. Sure, they are mostly out of the water, so sidewalls (out of the water) do not count for primary stability. However, as soon as the board starts to roll, sidewall HEIGHT and ANGLE matter tremendously in obtaining that secondary stability.
Back in the days, we'd place our surfskis on their respective sidewalls in order to grain stability while on a run - DW. Choosing the angle was an art in itself. Amazing stability gain was achieved by this - secondary stability.
To claim that sidewalls are not going to and will not ever provide additional stability seems incorrect.
I believe that some top users and proponents of dugouts for fast down-winding have been mentioning this to be part of their strategy. I am slowly trying to get into it but not the intuitive thing to do on a SUP :-)
I completely agree.
(We used to do this as a drill in our surfski's back in my lifeguarding days. Once you know where the edge is you can feel the rising rate of the secondary buoyancy kick in as you lean the ski over and the higher section of the sidewall engages in the water..... until it doesn't..... and then you're out !)
Post by: yugi on April 23, 2018, 08:06:50 AM
...
I'll go the other way... Imagine no sidewalls at all.
...
Got a board like that! Love it.
Post by: burchas on April 23, 2018, 08:28:26 AM
I believe that some top users and proponents of dugouts for fast down-winding have been mentioning this to be part of their strategy. I am slowly trying to get into it but not the intuitive thing to do on a SUP :-)
Definitely a good strategy, both upwind and downwind. Digging into a bump in-front of you side ways really helps to maintain speed
and avoid pearling. Works very well for me upwind and eliminates nose slap. Not quite there downwind yet but seen it in action an
it's a real boon. The great secondary stability sidewalls provide is nice feature to have for this technique.
Post by: burchas on April 23, 2018, 09:53:34 AM
...
I'll go the other way... Imagine no sidewalls at all.
...
Got a board like that! Love it.
pictures or it never happened ;D
Post by: yugi on April 23, 2018, 10:10:15 AM
Post by: Area 10 on April 23, 2018, 10:31:14 AM
Many surf SUPs that are fairly low volume can feel surprisingly stable because the rider is close to water level. Yet they have virtually no sidewall .
You are able to paddle a board on its rail if it has a dugout, but the main reason why you can do this is because you have a low CoG. You are doing this on a surfski because you are sitting low. If you were sitting high and did it youd tip over.
So its not the high sidewalls that are giving the stability, its mainly the low standing area. The sidewalls allow you to have a low standing area (without getting swamped). So I think you are putting the cart before the horses.
Post by: burchas on April 23, 2018, 11:01:10 AM
lol. If you have one to spare, I want one of those as well.
I could see why you love it, it's a hell of a ride ;D
Post by: burchas on April 23, 2018, 11:14:20 AM
The sidewalls allow you to have a low standing area (without getting swamped). So I think you are putting the cart before the horses.
"Without getting swamped" is the key phrase here. Once water starts wrapping around your board and deck while in motion it can and will
send you swimming. The existence of these sidewalls or fat rails is what helping you and the extra volume on the rail always helps with
stability.
It's true, you can't put the cart before the horses, but on the other hand, you can't separate the cart from the horses either ;)
Post by: ukgm on April 24, 2018, 01:39:46 AM
Look, IMO you guys are conflating two things: a low standing area, and deep rails. Its the low standing area that adds most stability.
I agree with you but that's a strawman again that people are taking this discussion down. I'm not sure how we've digressed into arguing about the merits of the design of board X vs design of board type Y. The low standing area is a red herring as it is a static quality by setting the baseline level of whatever the perceived stability is. However, secondary stability is a dynamic quality since its only really a quality once/if the board rolls. The question is whether the higher sidewall enters the water and affects this stability. I'm saying yes - it has to from a point of physics as the form and forces are both being changed in that moment. The relative distance of your feet to the waterline isn't (probably) changing when this happens so any dugout discussion isn't relevant (other than to agree with you that's its obvious that dug outs provide extra stability by lowering the centre of gravity in the main).
If a higher sidewall enters the water, it will change the perceived quality of stability - but as you said before, this is only a factor if it does that (and there is obviously a reasonable limit to how high this should be).
Post by: ukgm on April 24, 2018, 01:47:32 AM
I agree that the sidewalls can play an important part in secondary stability. Sure, they are mostly out of the water, so sidewalls (out of the water) do not count for primary stability. However, as soon as the board starts to roll, sidewall HEIGHT and ANGLE matter tremendously in obtaining that secondary stability.
This. ^
This is it in a nutshell. The relative position of your feet to the waterline doesn't affect this (i.e. whether you are on a dugout or not is a different discussion entirely). This is why higher sidewalls can be useful - even if they are not initially in the water.
Post by: mrbig on April 24, 2018, 03:17:20 PM
My first 12'6" was a Marlin. Round bottom. Like a canoe. Log rolling skills developed.
Followed by a Jimmy Lewis Blade, an Imagine (really awful), JP (choppy tippy fast in glass - what's that), Starby Race ( twitchy s.o.b.), Focus Bluefin (Mo Bettah), and a 404 Go-Go.
No dugouts, no unlimiteds.
I have discovered drain holes fill up, piercing noses neh, hull bottoms too tippy for me (crappy balance).
Sidewalls definitely effect stability both primary and secondary.
The latest SIC all water appeals to me. The newest 404 (customs in USA available), and it would interesting to try the Nelo to say the least.
I look forward to the continued discussion on this thread as it is refreshing to have many experienced racers, and constructors sharing their real world experiences instead of a lot speculation based on theoretical presuppositions.
Over and out! Paddle on lads!
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on April 24, 2018, 06:30:32 PM
Post by: photofr on April 24, 2018, 10:53:53 PM
12'6 don't glide too well.
UL is the future.
Current SUP construction is archaic.
Future HOLLOW construction boards (from MOLD) will bring us 12'6 boards at about 7 pounds, and UL boards between 10 to 11 pounds.
Currently, UL boards hurt lighter paddlers because of their weight. I'd jump onto a SIC UL any day... if the thing was 9 kilos, strong, and durable.
Post by: ukgm on April 25, 2018, 04:53:52 AM
3 years ago, on a French Forum - I was saying exactly that:
12'6 don't glide too well.
UL is the future.
Current SUP construction is archaic.
Future HOLLOW construction boards (from MOLD) will bring us 12'6 boards at about 7 pounds, and UL boards between 10 to 11 pounds.
Currently, UL boards hurt lighter paddlers because of their weight. I'd jump onto a SIC UL any day... if the thing was 9 kilos, strong, and durable.
The problem is that the return on investment for hollow boards is a lot longer than foam construction and Starboards insistence on bringing new boards out every 12 months acts as a barrier to the likely longer shelf life of hollow boards (as per surf ski's).
Post by: photofr on April 25, 2018, 09:46:22 AM
Other facts to look at would PERHAPS include: technique improvement.
This is where most paddlers are going to get faster - a lot faster than with a new board.
Food for thoughts, right?
In any case, so glad that I got this board because on top of all its other attributes, it is infinitely more durable.
Post by: ukgm on April 25, 2018, 10:15:48 AM
I understand, however, we know that the best brand new design is only going to bring an average of about 0.1 to 0.5 km/h difference in speed. Since this is true for most human powered crafts, changing new designs every year made end up costing the death or near death of a given sport. Coming up with a great new design every 4 to 7 years may prove to be more feasible.
Other facts to look at would PERHAPS include: technique improvement.
This is where most paddlers are going to get faster - a lot faster than with a new board.
Food for thoughts, right?
In any case, so glad that I got this board because on top of all its other attributes, it is infinitely more durable.
I think its quite telling that kayak companies like Epic or Nelo have a model life of 4-5 years or in some cases even longer. Bicycles are pretty much the same at 3-4 years (and longer for some models). You get the impression as a result that when something new comes out, its been thought through and there is some added value. When Starboard bring a new board out every August it just tells me that their marketing dpt. is in charge of their R&D. You keep doing that and eventually the market becomes cynical and collapses.
Post by: yugi on April 25, 2018, 01:29:09 PM
...
I think its quite telling that kayak companies like Epic or Nelo have a model life of 4-5 years or in some cases even longer. Bicycles are pretty much the same at 3-4 years (and longer for some models).
...
As if!
1870 to NYC alley cat Monster Track is way more than 3-4 years.
Check out the dude on the Penny Farthing.
https://youtu.be/sy-vYu2Fjf4
Post by: SupSimcoe on April 25, 2018, 06:31:24 PM
If we want hollow construction we have to tell the manufacturers with our wallets or they will never get it. Either that or get EPS banned so they are forced to make hollow boards.
Post by: ukgm on April 26, 2018, 02:04:25 AM
Standard EPS core board construction is so easy to change on the fly and make an all new board it is inevitable for the R&D team to make changes, under the direction of the company to keep up selling more and more stuff, and then our culture of want the newest and shiniest takes over and they sell more stuff we do not really need and may make us marginally faster.
I think it was telling that a huge company like Naish decided to drop their flatwater board for this year and only produces a 12'6 and 14ft Maliko all water board now. When the ISA worlds go to 14ft boards for next year, I suspect the 12'6 will get dropped as well. This kind of sign doesn't bode well for the market and (if you ignore Starboard's output) doesn't indicate a healthy race board market in my view. The companies need to realise that 'fastest' and colourways isn't what we are looking for in the longer term. That all said, I don't know what we are all looking for. I can say that my opinion and philosophy with SUP has clashed publicly with Steve West's at Mistrals a lot in the past (so we don't always get on) but I can say objectively that I really admire the way (and look at their facebook page) how he/they are building a wide range of SUP concepts at the moment that are outside the conventional norms and just trying stuff out. We badly need that as a sport.
Post by: mr_proper on May 04, 2018, 11:15:49 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiYCCJUI2B4
Post by: JEG on May 04, 2018, 04:10:06 PM
Post by: mr_proper on May 04, 2018, 10:22:33 PM
nice board and vid mr_proper but it looks a little unstable.
Yes, it is... at least for me ;)
Im tall and have not the best balance. Started with SUP with 50 and had no watersport background.
it is much more stable for smaller, lighter people.
But the secondary stability is better and ok for me.
Post by: yugi on May 05, 2018, 04:28:45 AM
Nice stroke and ankle flex too.
Post by: Area 10 on May 05, 2018, 05:27:57 AM
Looks like its what we all knew it would be: very fast, but twitchy in cross-chop, and designed for the lighter rider in pure flat water. It will be interesting to see how well ordinary folk rather than elite paddlers get on with this in real-world conditions.
Great to see a light, durable and fast board being made available though. We have not been served well by e.g. Cobra and the big brands IMO. So an outfit with alternative knowledge and practices is extremely welcome.
Post by: mr_proper on May 05, 2018, 11:30:01 PM
I'm glad that you like it.
Post by: photofr on May 06, 2018, 01:07:35 AM
WAKE
I have been paddling this board in the 14x23, but by now, you guys also realise that the wake behind that board is negligible. I find that its tail actually closes the water better than the Allstar or Sprint.
STABILITY
Sure, it's very relative... I am a lightweight paddler, but I am the furthest thing from an Elite paddler. Meanwhile, I see the Nelo 14x23 as very compatible with ocean paddling on calmer days - and not just on the dead flat days. I am confident that I'd paddle this board in open water with winds between 0-15 knots.
Speaking of relativity... get on the 14x23 for 1/2 an hour, and then get back onto the 24.75... I am pretty sure you'll find it far more stable. :)
SPEED
Now this one is still peculiar - at best...
I have now had this board in all sorts of conditions, including yesterday's less than perfect day: windy / choppy confused canal with boat wakes / side wind / down breeze.
I will summerise it with one word: GLIDE.
This is in no way a statement to ensure that you rush into a store and get one. I am just sharing my feeling on the board, and providing feedback. Behind up front is a nice change :P
What I'd like to see is: a lightweight athlete (a young athlete, not someone 50 years old like me) - someone really fast, and see how well they do with this 14x23 in real life situations.
Until then, I must say: I really am enjoying the board. The overall speed advantage for me is very cool, but the amazing feeling of the glide is what makes this 14' board special to me.
Post by: Eagle on May 06, 2018, 10:08:37 AM
Yeah no doubt about this. Hop on a narrow tippy option then go on a wider board and it will feel like a dock. But pretty much any board 23 and under has very good glide if it has a displacement type nose.
Would expect any top 10 elite to race on the 23 Nelo or 23 AS or 23 Sprint or 21.5 Sprint and get the best time on each board depending on the conditions on the water and how they feel that day.
The tippy jiggle is normal on a board that has no hard underside edges to slow the roll. All one has to do is compare to the 25 discontinued SB Race to feel tippy. Was ok on flat but in any side chop it was a handful. Made complete sense to get rid of that board and merge the design into the more stable 2016 AS. The 23 AS is much easier to handle in rough water than the wider 25 Race. The power band of the 25 Race was simply too narrow.
The 23 Nelo ride should be good on flat but for rough water and side chop it would probably be a handful for most. Just pros and cons as always -> but a hollow board option would be nice to have. Would probably get something like that if it was available for a good price and wanted a flat water board. That or the 21.5 Sprint Mike has. For calm waters a narrow efficient board is so much more fun to paddle than a wide board. But horses for courses.
The key for many is as long as you enjoy what you have -> all is good in da hood. ;)
Post by: photofr on May 13, 2018, 10:52:36 AM
FOR INFO
It was ordered with custom colors (I wanted high contrast, but I was also seeking simplicity). It took a little over 7 weeks to be built, and then another two weeks to get it from Portugal to Northern France (that was stupid of me for not insisting on direct ship). The total wait time was therefore ridiculous - but could be easily shorten.
REDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.
BOW
The bow has a lot more volume - to the point that I can't get any water to flow over the bow any more - at least in the flats, and at least with my weight. The bow seems more agressive too, with a sharper V-shape to shed water quicker. The concept seems to work, but it doesn't give me the feel of a reverse bow any more. It's only strange because I really liked the other one, though this one has other advantages, like minimising water coming from the bow.
STANDING AREA
You guys have heard me complain about the huge amount of V on the deck. This has been corrected in a huge way, and the standing area is nearly flat now, with just a slight V separating my left and right foot.
STABILITY
I should have kept the other board to really compare them... because my new board is BY FAR more stable than the previous model. Going into the ocean or paddling during super cold months will be far easier.
COLORS
The white stripes you see are actually recessed. That's just bonus, as I think it looks super cool. There's plenty of gelcoat to go around. The finish is very clean and shinny as can be. No more dull finish - which I never really enjoyed much.
SPEED
Blue's faster.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-pd5mpWk/0/bd1357e4/XL/0323-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-pd5mpWk/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-xd66hTb/0/6e9b1f73/XL/0322-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-xd66hTb/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-LF5bMNh/0/19800203/XL/0324-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-LF5bMNh/A)
Post by: SupSimcoe on May 13, 2018, 11:25:40 AM
Can you take pics of the bottom
Post by: photofr on May 13, 2018, 12:22:23 PM
A quick note on the bottom:
I placed it on a rack and the rounded hull became very apparent. I'll try to duplicate what I saw with the next photos.
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2018, 01:56:38 AM
But can I ask about this?:
REDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.
So, the board that turned up is not at all like the one you thought youd ordered? Hmm...
Post by: ukgm on May 14, 2018, 04:17:34 AM
Thats a magnificent looking board.
But can I ask about this?:
REDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.
So, the board that turned up is not at all like the one you thought youd ordered? Hmm...
I'd spoke to lightsignature not too long ago. It's not a redesign but there was some fettling of the drainage, added height of the sidewalls and some volume tweaks. It was basically some tinkering with the moulds, not a brand new board. I'm personally waiting to see what their new allwater board looks like.
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2018, 04:34:45 AM
Thats a magnificent looking board.
But can I ask about this?:
REDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.
So, the board that turned up is not at all like the one you thought youd ordered? Hmm...
I'd spoke to lightsignature not too long ago. It's not a redesign but there was some fettling of the drainage, added height of the sidewalls and some volume tweaks. It was basically some tinkering with the moulds, not a brand new board. I'm personally waiting to see what their new allwater board looks like.
I see. Its a complete redesign that amounts to some tinkering with the moulds. Thanks for clearing that up - I was a bit confused there for a moment :)
Whatever, the board looks more conventional than the original one we saw, so I presume that the designer has started to actually paddle the thing rather than go by what should work in theory alone :)
Post by: ukgm on May 14, 2018, 04:56:51 AM
Thats a magnificent looking board.
But can I ask about this?:
REDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.
So, the board that turned up is not at all like the one you thought youd ordered? Hmm...
I'd spoke to lightsignature not too long ago. It's not a redesign but there was some fettling of the drainage, added height of the sidewalls and some volume tweaks. It was basically some tinkering with the moulds, not a brand new board. I'm personally waiting to see what their new allwater board looks like.
I see. Its a complete redesign that amounts to some tinkering with the moulds. Thanks for clearing that up - I was a bit confused there for a moment :)
Whatever, the board looks more conventional than the original one we saw, so I presume that the designer has started to actually paddle the thing rather than go by what should work in theory alone :)
I don't know. Coincidentally, one of the paddlers in the UK has been racing the mk1 this year. There are some videos kicking around of it. I haven't been stunned by its impact yet though.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2018, 05:42:45 AM
Thats a magnificent looking board.
But can I ask about this?:
REDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.
So, the board that turned up is not at all like the one you thought youd ordered? Hmm...
I'd spoke to lightsignature not too long ago. It's not a redesign but there was some fettling of the drainage, added height of the sidewalls and some volume tweaks. It was basically some tinkering with the moulds, not a brand new board. I'm personally waiting to see what their new allwater board looks like.
@ AREA10
Thanks - I do enjoy the way my design came out - very much so actually.
As for the REDESIGN...
Let me be blunt here: my new board feels different, and absolutely and 100% behaves differently in the water. Heck, let me be even more blunt: The new blue board is way more stable than the previous green one. The new blue board doesn't give you the same glide - and not by a long shot. I had to actually measure the width to see if they didn't give me the 24.75" instead of the 23" - but no.
Sure, I can tell they have redesigned the deck, especially the standing area - but it didn't stop there.
1. The bow has a tremendous amount of additional volume (catches wind like you wouldn't believe compared to version #1).
2. On top of the additional nose volume, the bow now has a distinct V shape (it's nice because it sheds water quicker, but like I said: it also catches wind)
3. The old bow looked like nothing else out there in the World of SUP - the new redesigned bow looks like another board on the market.
4. The old board rested in the water - the new one is like a cork. I am a lightweight paddler, and DO NOT LIKE IT as much as the previous version.
5. Because of all the extra volume (and mind you the other one had plenty of volume for my weight) the new board is heavier.
6. Sprinting feels a lot more sluggish off the start - but again the board is more stable.
All and all, I feel like the version #1 14x23 was finally a board designed for lighter paddlers. I now totally feel like this board is more designed for the heavier Germans or similar.
How much do I dislike it OR how much do I like it?
I am keeping it, but I am shocked my the change of behaviour. It's still faster than the Ace, still gives me a great workout, still handles the flats well, and it's still light. It's just not at all what I have been TOTALLY ENJOYING for the last 3 weeks.
The colors have a lot to do with me keeping this board.
Post by: ukgm on May 14, 2018, 06:22:29 AM
Thats a magnificent looking board.
But can I ask about this?:
REDESIGNED
To my great surprise, this is a complete redesign, and yes, I dare say complete because my new board feels completely different from the demo board I tested extensively.
So, the board that turned up is not at all like the one you thought youd ordered? Hmm...
I'd spoke to lightsignature not too long ago. It's not a redesign but there was some fettling of the drainage, added height of the sidewalls and some volume tweaks. It was basically some tinkering with the moulds, not a brand new board. I'm personally waiting to see what their new allwater board looks like.
@ AREA10
Thanks - I do enjoy the way my design came out - very much so actually.
As for the REDESIGN...
Let me be blunt here: my new board feels different, and absolutely and 100% behaves differently in the water. Heck, let me be even more blunt: The new blue board is way more stable than the previous green one. The new blue board doesn't give you the same glide - and not by a long shot. I had to actually measure the width to see if they didn't give me the 24.75" instead of the 23" - but no.
Sure, I can tell they have redesigned the deck, especially the standing area - but it didn't stop there.
1. The bow has a tremendous amount of additional volume (catches wind like you wouldn't believe compared to version #1).
2. On top of the additional nose volume, the bow now has a distinct V shape (it's nice because it sheds water quicker, but like I said: it also catches wind)
3. The old bow looked like nothing else out there in the World of SUP - the new redesigned bow looks like another board on the market.
4. The old board rested in the water - the new one is like a cork. I am a lightweight paddler, and DO NOT LIKE IT as much as the previous version.
5. Because of all the extra volume (and mind you the other one had plenty of volume for my weight) the new board is heavier.
6. Sprinting feels a lot more sluggish off the start - but again the board is more stable.
All and all, I feel like the version #1 14x23 was finally a board designed for lighter paddlers. I now totally feel like this board is more designed for the heavier Germans or similar.
How much do I dislike it OR how much do I like it?
I am keeping it, but I am shocked my the change of behaviour. It's still faster than the Ace, still gives me a great workout, still handles the flats well, and it's still light. It's just not at all what I have been TOTALLY ENJOYING for the last 3 weeks.
The colors have a lot to do with me keeping this board.
Personally, this reads like you think its not as good as the old design. If that's the case, I'd be sending it back and offering to buy the demo board you had.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2018, 06:32:34 AM
There are pros and cons - if I were to decide to get the DEMO board.
PROS
Seemingly, way more adapted to my needs, abilities and my weight, and a super light board.
CONS
I admit I really like how the blue & white came out - letting it go is gonna be tough.
The demo model has been used and abused by a bunch of clueless people. It's far from being an equivalent swap.
In the end, I cannot emphasise enough how different the new board feels. The new board feels like it's dragging seaweed. They have changed the bow, but a bow can easily affect a board overall gliding ability. The Mark I Nelo board is without a doubt more adapted to my needs, especially after having moved inland.
Post by: SupSimcoe on May 14, 2018, 06:36:25 AM
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2018, 09:12:20 AM
Whatever, you ordered one board and got another. That isnt acceptable.
Im sorry that this has happened to you - your excitement about, and anticipation of, your new deal board was infectious and if this isnt the board for you then that is miserable.
Btw, the average man in Wales is even heavier than the average German. So maybe its the fault of the Welsh? :)
Post by: Eagle on May 14, 2018, 09:47:47 AM
That is the board you should be using. If we ordered a 23 and they delivered a revised Gen 2 board that was jacked up in volume and felt like it was dragging seaweed -> that would be a big no go.
Ask that they re-furb the demo and swap it for you with a big discount. They will no longer have any use for it anyways. Maybe they can source other much better condition Gen 1 boards as well from others that want to trade up for more stability anyways. They should be able to address your concerns and get you what you ordered excepting the custom blue.
But would def not settle for a more stable board that was corky and draggy and heavier than bargained for. That Gen 1 sounded like a much better board for your requirements.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2018, 09:59:49 AM
This isn't about going to a fast food, and trying to decide on a Cheeseburger vs. a Chicken sandwich. The choice I am now facing is so bizarre, unexpected, and heartbreaking. Currently PONDERING, sadly.
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2018, 10:20:05 AM
So, I wish this kind of nonsense was rare but Im sorry to say that in my experience it isnt. That doesnt help you at all of course, but Im sure many of us can identify with your frustration and disappointment right now. I hope it turns out well for you, whatever you decide to do.
Post by: Luc Benac on May 14, 2018, 10:44:55 AM
Why does buying a SUP (at least in Europe) so frequently turn into some long drawn-out time- and money-wasting saga?
Because EC has a mandatory two years warranty period of consumer products, they want you take the full advantage of the longer warranty :-)
Post by: SupSimcoe on May 14, 2018, 11:19:11 AM
I know that Clearwood are working on the drop deck version of the VLZ and an all water race board as well.
I know that I will have more than 60 hours into the board and about $1100 CAD in actual cost total but looking at standard construction there is not $4000 plus in materials and labor in any of these EPS or Hollow Carbon/fibreglass boards. We are paying for retailers, Distributors, shipping, marketing, R&D, racing and markup just because they can.
Post by: Luc Benac on May 14, 2018, 11:51:31 AM
UL is very tempting except for the 40 lbs weight:
http://clearwoodpaddleboards.com/product/cascade-unlimited-length-sup/ (http://clearwoodpaddleboards.com/product/cascade-unlimited-length-sup/)
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2018, 12:22:26 PM
Sure... only 3 days on it so far - but here's what I am noticing thus far:
- The green board Mark I - was more than 0.7 km/h faster than the Sprint 14x23.
- The blue board Mark II - is showing the same speed or slightly slower than my Sprint 14x23 - granted, with limited data so far.
I am thinking out loud...
The Sprint 14x23 didn't feel corky, and it was darn versatile. Its biggest downfall was that it was built with styrofoam, and was a bit heavy (about 3 kilos heavier).
The Nelo Mark I - didn't feel corky, was a blast, and provided a glide above and beyond what was expected. The feeling of glide cannot be expressed enough. The lightweight of the board was a joy and very obvious. This board was plenty versatile for my needs. Heck, it even put a smile on my face when riding a boat wake. The color isn't as nice as the blue board, but I actually like that green. However, the board isn't new - and far from it. It even has a little hole that will need repairing.
The Nelo Mark II - Aside from numbers, the feeling (of the magical glide experienced on the Green board and on the Sprint UL) is gone. The green has however been replaced with a beautiful custom color scheme that I appreciate very much - but is it enough? I don't and will not want to wait another 3 months to take delivery of a new board.
NEXT?
I think I will keep the blue board for a week or so, put in 100's of miles and give it a fair chance. I'll go ahead and play around with different fins and see if I can get a difference pointing in the right direction.
AREA10: thanks - I appreciate it.
It's a sad day in Europe - but... Have I been spoiled with a board seemingly built for my lightweight and/or ...
have I just been spoiled by American customer service / accuracy gear communication / thoughtful quality control?
I do remember the days when:
No shaper in Hawaii would dare put out a product with a single defect.
No one would put out a product with specs different from the original request.
But I also remember the day when Cannondale bikes (formerly built in the USA) went to China - and when I stopped biking Cannondales. (note: I was biking 2 to 3 bikes every two years - for nearly 20 years on Cannondales). I am however digressing...
My only hopes on this Mark II is that it actually serves a purpose for stronger paddlers, or simply paddlers who are just a little heavier.
Post by: JEG on May 14, 2018, 02:42:07 PM
Why does buying a SUP (at least in Europe) so frequently turn into some long drawn-out time- and money-wasting saga? Ive lost count of the number of times that for either me or my friends the wrong boards have turned up, or theyve turned up late or damaged or not at all, or with some construction defect like a handle in the wrong place, or a finbox not set into high density foam, or with paint that flakes off immediately etc etc. With one Cobra-built board I received, when you lifted the board and tilted one end you could hear something that sounded like a small marble run down the centre under the deck almost from nose to tail. What the HELL was that??? So back it went with another 4 month wait for the replacement, and I was none the wiser.
So, I wish this kind of nonsense was rare but Im sorry to say that in my experience it isnt. That doesnt help you at all of course, but Im sure many of us can identify with your frustration and disappointment right now. I hope it turns out well for you, whatever you decide to do.
I'm hearing you Area 10, it makes me ::)
Post by: ukgm on May 14, 2018, 04:14:09 PM
Post by: yugi on May 14, 2018, 11:13:08 PM
From all your oozings the main thing I heard was: speed. Id expect you to take the faster one.
Can you get the demo board again so you can try them back to back?
Post by: mr_proper on May 14, 2018, 11:55:36 PM
Did you have the information that you will get the Signature 2.0?
If in doubt, try to contact Gerd Weisner of Lightboardcorp. Lightboard is very accommodating.
Post by: ukgm on May 15, 2018, 12:12:31 AM
What does your dealer say?
Did you have the information that you will get the Signature 2.0?
If in doubt, try to contact Gerd Weisner of Lightboardcorp. Lightboard is very accommodating.
I have to agree with this. Colour is one thing but ultimately you'll get past that and be left with the paddling experience. Trust me, if that's an issue, you'll be left with an expensive mistake. You have the right to get what you liked. Ask Gert, I've always found him friendly and very good at discussions surrounding his product.
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 01:00:31 AM
Theyve clearly sent you the 2.0 model.
https://www.light-sup.com
Not surprising I guess: did you specifically ask for a 1.0 version?
If you tried a 2017 All Star and then ordered an All Star from Starboard, youd get the 2018 not the 2017 model.
Thats a big nose. I havent tried many big nose flat water designs over the last 11 years that have been successful. I can see that theyve tried to make this a bit more of an all-waters design by increasing the nose volume but IMO if you arent careful you end up with something thats neither fish nor fowl. Big noses take a lot of pushing, especially into wind and chop.
Post by: photofr on May 15, 2018, 03:17:12 AM
Its Gerd not Gert.
Theyve clearly sent you the 2.0 model.
https://www.light-sup.com
Not surprising I guess: did you specifically ask for a 1.0 version?
If you tried a 2017 All Star and then ordered an All Star from Starboard, youd get the 2018 not the 2017 model.
Thats a big nose. I havent tried many big nose flat water designs over the last 11 years that have been successful. I can see that theyve tried to make this a bit more of an all-waters design by increasing the nose volume but IMO if you arent careful you end up with something thats neither fish nor fowl. Big noses take a lot of pushing, especially into wind and chop.
I tried the Version 1.0 - and immediately discussed two things:
A) Glide / Speed
B) Construction
When we talked about construction, it was clearly stated to me that being a Mold construction, we wouldn't see any modification for a few years - as with all surfskis. It made complete sense, because I would have never once imagined that such a great board for light paddlers would be modified so quickly, now aiming at heavier paddlers.
To answer other questions - and to look at options:
1. The best my rep could do is to provide me with a version 1.0 with my colors. That's the best of the BEST case scenario, but highly unlikely.The worst part about this scenario is the waiting period to get it built. We are already in mid May, and there's no way I will waste my summer over a board. Contacting the rep therefore makes little or no sense - not to mention that getting me a replacement built will be super unlikely.
2. Contacting Lightcorp may actually be the best route. Asking / begging them to trade my new version 2 board for a new-and-in-stock version 1 board might actually be more realistic for me. In this scenario, driving the current board to Germany and swapping isn't out of the question, but what a royal pain (14 hours or more).
3. I guess I could sell or trade this board for any 14x21.5 - and give up on durability / hollow construction. In this case, I would most likely go with a Starboard Sprint 2017 (or 2018 if I must) - or a Mistral - or anything similar designed for lighter paddlers.
4. I have been spoiled - but removing the version out of the picture, I have to admit that the current board is STILL an amazing board. It doesn't have a horrible glide; it's actually quite nice, just not as nice for ME as the green board (version 1). The construction meets and exceeds my expectations; it's solid. The colors are stellar. It's a freekin' nice board - period. So... it's a little slower, but nothing that good / great training couldn't overcome. We all know that a new board can bring 0.3 to 0.7 km/h difference in speed, but great training and endurance can bring A LOT MORE. I guess I could go that route, since it's a beautiful board, and bound to be quite durable.
So back to square one:
I'll play with fins - try to get the speed up and see.
I'll give the Germans a call and see if they are interested in a swap.
I am open to other suggestions.
Post by: yugi on May 15, 2018, 03:32:51 AM
Post by: ukgm on May 15, 2018, 03:48:41 AM
Its Gerd not Gert.
Thats a big nose. I havent tried many big nose flat water designs over the last 11 years that have been successful. I can see that theyve tried to make this a bit more of an all-waters design by increasing the nose volume.
Yep I know - pre cereal typo.
I must admit, its got me confused as when I spoke to him, I was led to believe the tweaks would be minor and that there was a seperate allwater board coming out. However, now I'm wondering if something was lost in translation and this was intended to be one board of an amalgamation of those ideas, not two seperate ones (so the 2.0 is basically what he meant).
Post by: mr_proper on May 15, 2018, 04:20:57 AM
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 04:36:25 AM
https://youtu.be/QiYCCJUI2B4
And/or this one:
https://youtu.be/F1176Elymw4
And this is the 2.0 he actually got?
https://vimeo.com/264510203
Post by: ukgm on May 15, 2018, 04:47:55 AM
And this is the 2.0 he actually got?
https://vimeo.com/264510203
It looks to me like the nose rocker has been altered. The water is nowhere near the noses leading edge like the original one was. I'm wondering is its a separate mould entirely, not tweaks to the 1.0.
Post by: ukgm on May 15, 2018, 04:50:55 AM
.....because I would have never once imagined that such a great board for light paddlers would be modified so quickly, now aiming at heavier paddlers.
I'm surprised about this as their team paddlers are neither big nor heavy in appearance. Its an odd change to be sure as it wasn't low in volume to begin with. It might be worth asking specifically what the volume change from the 1.0 to the 2.0 actually was.
Post by: mr_proper on May 15, 2018, 06:11:48 AM
Is this the signature 1.0 that photofr had as a demo?
Video 1 + 2 are Signatur 1.0
Video 3 is Signature 2.0
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 07:45:13 AM
Is this the signature 1.0 that photofr had as a demo?
Video 1 + 2 are Signatur 1.0
Video 3 is Signature 2.0
Ok well the 1.0 looks likely to have a bit of an issue with pitching, if you had a heavy strong paddler on board. Also looks tippy. Which is presumably why 2.0 has a bigger nose. But now theyve increased nose size without increasing the tail similarly, the board is going to weathervane like crazy in strong sidewinds, and upwind youve got a big nose to catch all the ripples and wind, that you are going to have to grind against. I suspect that these guys are on a steep learning curve about the realities and restrictions of SUP design. Its a helluva thing to find just the right balance, especially when you are restricted in length by race regulations. The 1.0 looks like a sleek flatwater missile for a light person so I can see why photofr liked it.
Post by: Eagle on May 15, 2018, 08:12:00 AM
"we updated the top mold of the very fast LIGHTCORP SIGNATURE MODEL to suit rougher water conditions"
Sounds less and less a flat water board. But there must have been enough rider input to push this quick change. Similar for me with the 2016 AS. That board is very low slung vs the 2017. Starboard riders found it was pearling in rough water races so a bunch of nose volume was added. Pros and cons.
So can understand the move to higher sidewalls and a longer front ratio. This should keep the cockpit drier for those pushing the board hard during races. It must have been an issue to necessitate such a quick design change. Nevertheless if given an option for flat water -> the Gen 1 is the right board. The Gen 2 def looks better for rougher water. Unfortunately the offside seems to be less glide and less speed.
Sounds like whoever told you there would be no modifications should sort this out on your behalf.
Post by: photofr on May 15, 2018, 11:14:08 AM
.....because I would have never once imagined that such a great board for light paddlers would be modified so quickly, now aiming at heavier paddlers.
I'm surprised about this as their team paddlers are neither big nor heavy in appearance. Its an odd change to be sure as it wasn't low in volume to begin with. It might be worth asking specifically what the volume change from the 1.0 to the 2.0 actually was.
I spoke briefly to one of their German paddlers. The guy is like 92 kilos - and TALL. Perhaps that is why they added more volume up front, which later changed the entire board's behaviour.
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 01:20:14 PM
Post by: photofr on May 15, 2018, 01:26:51 PM
I will now share couple of things I have noticed, and back it up with some photos. As you will notice, it's not all bad - in fact, most of the changes are positive ones, even though it affects me as a super lightweight paddler lacking muscle mass.
First of all: I could be wrong, but it looks to me like version 1.0 is gone and has completely been replaced with version 2.0. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.
Moving on and looking at version 2.0 - it looks like it has undergone some drastic changes, and I am sorry for saying so, but I wouldn't consider any of them as minor, especially when board stability and speed is affected so drastically.
The new board is now more stable, and there's no denying that it does a great job at keeping water off your standing area.
The highly pronounced V of the standing area of version 1.0 is almost completely flattened out - thus providing
a much more natural stance.
There something very beautiful at the sharp V of the nose - and it actually works very well going upwind, or against boat wakes.
The fin that Lightcorp provides is the second heaviest fin I have ever owned. Changing it with the Maliko fin from Blackproject made a World of difference in a) stability (way more stable) and b) tracking (now tracks beautifully) and c) weight (it just made the board that much lighter).
HULL
As far as I know, the hull hasn't been changed, although the version 2.0 has gained an amazing amount of stability. Its hull is still rather rounded - as far as SUP boards go. Perhaps this image will illustrate the beauty of efficiency of its hull.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-KLVjMSN/0/c72e5f00/L/06468-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-KLVjMSN/A)
NOSE HEIGHT
The nose volume has been increased many folds - in fact, it looks like it's about twice the volume of version 1.0 - The following image shows how much volume I am talking about. Take a moment and look twice, because the piece of wood is placed on the HULL!
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-XrLJSF6/0/0a564332/L/06471-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-XrLJSF6/A)
STANDING DECK
Interestingly enough, the deck looks quite deep. In fact, it isn't as deep as you'd think. Sure, the sidewalls are said to be taller, and I they are - but your standing area could be lowered by about another inch to add even more stability. Difficult to notice, but there is still a V shape standing area... from the handle, it slopes DOWN slightly - slightly only when you compare it with version 1.0 because it slopes down a lot compared to traditional boards I have tried.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-n7Q5PvQ/0/32fb7499/L/06476-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-n7Q5PvQ/A)
FINS
I have tried a total of 3 fins today. The Maliko from Black Project is by far a dream come true for this particular board. This is not bashing... I am just stating what really works well and complements this board. The original fin that came with it needs to be revisited.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-T5GNBt2/0/94ca89ad/L/06480-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-T5GNBt2/A)
NEWER MODELS
It is what it is. Seemingly, version 1.0 was aimed at 80% flat water and 20% all around (my best guess mind you). Version 2.0 is apparently aimed at 60% all around, and 40% flat water (again, my best guess). Seems rather strange when the company communicated on releasing an all water board some time really soon.
Nothing is following a logical path... but let's keep things in prospective:
The board is super durable.
No more stupid styrofoam.
Hollow construction that is just super light - as soon as you remove their fin.
Amongst some the top glides currently available on a 14' board.
Now with even more stability than I know what to do with.
Darn colors: I lov' them - and you too can customise your board's look.
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 01:36:06 PM
And its not me who has bought what I thought was going to be the 1.0.
Nice looking board though.
Post by: JEG on May 15, 2018, 02:19:37 PM
I'm no board designer but there's a find balance between speed and stability.
That maliko fin is not stable and no tracking but speed yes.
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 02:41:05 PM
Post by: photofr on May 15, 2018, 09:08:17 PM
thanks for the pics and nice board.
I'm no board designer but there's a find balance between speed and stability.
That maliko fin is not stable and no tracking but speed yes.
With Black Project fins, I found the Tiger to be my favorite for long distance. It is the lightest fin I have owned, the the fastest. I also found that it worked best with my weight on the Sprint UL and the Sprint 14x23 and the Nelo series 1.0 board - with the perfect amount of tracking for the above boards, and very predictable stability.
The Maliko, on the other hand, provides amazing additional stability, and excellent tracking. Weed is a question of the past with this fin. Mainly for its tracking, I find that it works best on the Ace 14x25 and the Allstar 14x25 - and now the Nelo series 2.0 board which needed tracking boosting with my weight. The Maliko is super light compared to the stock Lightcorp fin, but it isn't as light as the Tiger.
So who's got a fin that's lighter than the Tiger?
Mine came in at a whopping 121 grams.
Post by: photofr on May 15, 2018, 09:14:54 PM
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2018, 09:45:04 PM
The VMG Blades Mako 35 looks to be a good contender - but perhaps not so good for inland debris (a frequent problem that I had to wrap my head around). It's nothing like the crystal waters far off of Rabbit Island / Makapu
In very weedy water I find the VMG Mako actually better than the Maliko at shedding weeds. Weed-shedding is all about the little point where the blade meets the underside of the board. Even a steeply raked fin can catch weed if theres a sharp angle there. The VMG fins all have a slight angle at the base of the leading edge, and tend to be quite shallow. So they shed weeds very well. The Mako is an excellent flat water fin with the least drag of any fin Ive ever tried (and Ive got a huge range of SUP fins). I use mine for paddling on a weedy sheltered inland canal.
Actually, given your weight and technical competence, you could use the Mako 28. It weighs 157g.
The two downsides to the VMG Blades fins are however the cost and that they are fairly fragile (carbon over a light core). But if you want a really low drag and light fin, they are perfect. The foil is like no other, and it really works.
The 7.0 SIC weedless Carbon fin would also be good for you, if you wanted a much cheaper option - and if you can actually get hold of one. The 8.3 one is too big, its the 7.0 you want. They are an absolute bargain (if you can persuade the distributor to sell you one - for some reason SIC seem determined to restrict the circulation of them, and push the 8.3, which is nuts because the 7.0 is much better, and as most people find to their surprise, you dont need a bigger fin). The carbon 7.0 weedless is a very nice light fin and its pretty durable for carbon (there is also a plastic one which is extremely durable and frankly just as good, really - just a tiny bit heavier).
Post by: Luc Benac on May 15, 2018, 10:13:20 PM
With Black Project fins, I found the Tiger to be my favorite for long distance. It is the lightest fin I have owned, the the fastest. I also found that it worked best with my weight on the Sprint UL and the Sprint 14x23 and the Nelo series 1.0 board - with the perfect amount of tracking for the above boards, and very predictable stability.
Have you tried the Sonic. I really like it and use it with my Ace-GT and Vapor with zero problem for tracking instead of the Mako 37.
I am surprised that you use such a large and deep fin on the pin-tail of the Ace.
Post by: photofr on May 15, 2018, 10:24:01 PM
The ACE has a very rounded nose. I find it great for drafting and releasing itself for surfing. The problem with that is that it's all over the place on flat water.
On the opposite end of the spectrum lies the Sprint UL (sharp nose that acts as a front fin and tracks from the front). For this reason, I was able to get away with very little surface area on the rear fin - while using the Sprint or similar.
The new version 2.0 Nelo board was all over the place similar to the Ace.
CAREFUL:
Don't take my words for it.
This is very dependant on YOUR board and YOUR weight.
Choose a fin that works for you.
Post by: Eagle on May 15, 2018, 11:10:47 PM
But for max speed the SIC 7.0 is fastest for me but has the least amount of tracking. Catches zero weeds. Note both the carbon SIC fins come in old fat and new thin profiles.
Post by: ukgm on May 15, 2018, 11:37:37 PM
Post by: photofr on May 16, 2018, 12:10:13 AM
Someone on my Facebook page just brought to my attention that the two boards are really similar, especially looking at the tail and the standing area (which look so close to identical)
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2018, 12:50:51 AM
Yep, I agree and I tested this formally. I do believe the Tiger should be faster but its smaller size can exaggerate any stroke or tracking inefficiencies so it may not suit everyone. You need to pair it with the board. For example, for flatwater racing, I use the Maliko in my current board (a 2017 24.5 Allstar) but used the Tiger in my race board last year (A Naish Maliko 26). As I'll probably go narrower next year, I'll likely stay with the Maliko fin. It's extremely well designed.
The Mako is an excellent flat water fin with the least drag of any fin Ive ever tried (and Ive got a huge range of SUP fins). I use mine for paddling on a weedy sheltered inland canal.
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2018, 12:52:33 AM
Well, if I had the choice Id take the 2.0. But then Im a balance-challenged 83kgs who is a brute force paddler with no technical sophistication.
And its not me who has bought what I thought was going to be the 1.0.
Nice looking board though.
Yep, I must admit, it's become more appealing to me as a result of this thread. That said, if its now got heavier, you have to wonder what benefits are really left for it as a product.
Post by: photofr on May 16, 2018, 05:20:55 AM
Well, if I had the choice Id take the 2.0. But then Im a balance-challenged 83kgs who is a brute force paddler with no technical sophistication.
And its not me who has bought what I thought was going to be the 1.0.
Nice looking board though.
...you have to wonder what benefits are really left for it as a product.
Benefits?
You still get a very light 14' board in under 10 kilos... that coupled with the great durability of gelcoat that you find on surfskis. For Earth conscious people, you will now do without the Styrofoam (another plus in my books).
Post by: Area 10 on May 16, 2018, 05:48:15 AM
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2018, 05:55:44 AM
In the entire history of SUP racing, has anyone ever lost a podium place because their board was 3-4lbs heavier than it might have been?
I missed a result in a SUP sprint once because (upon reflection) I was personally 14lbs heavier than I should have been. ;D (but no, insofar as kayak and rowing research seems to suggest, that percentage of weight is going to have very little (likely no) impact in a typical distance event.
Post by: photofr on May 16, 2018, 05:57:35 AM
In the entire history of SUP racing, has anyone ever lost a podium place because their board was 3-4lbs heavier than it might have been?
In the history of "a man having fun with the elements" - has anyone felt like crap because their board was heavy? (especially after 40+ km) :) :) :)
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2018, 05:59:49 AM
In the entire history of SUP racing, has anyone ever lost a podium place because their board was 3-4lbs heavier than it might have been?
In the history of "a man having fun with the elements" - has anyone felt like crap because their board was heavy? (especially after 40+ km) :) :) :)
No. The human body alone could see nearly the same amount in day to day bodymass drift. I doubt you'd really notice it unless you're doing a lot of accelerations from low speeds (i.e. SUP surfing).
If I feel like crap, it's likely because I'm tired from training, not because I'm 4lbs over my norm at my feet. ;D
Post by: photofr on May 16, 2018, 06:05:13 AM
My Nelo is more than 3 kilos lighter - that's 6.6 pounds!!!!!!
A 6-pound difference is HUGE - especially when:
a) you are a super light paddler.
b) you are launching your board from one sprint to the next (during a flat water race, but especially DW).
c) you are paddling long distance
There is a remarkable difference, super noticeable on a surfski that glides way better than our slugs. But don't take my word for it. Just place a 6.6 pound water container on your next 35 km run and tell me all about it the next day.
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2018, 06:21:27 AM
My sprint was like 11.8 kilos with the ultra light fin.
My Nelo is more than 3 kilos lighter - that's 6.6 pounds!!!!!!
A 6-pound difference is HUGE - especially when:
a) you are a super light paddler.
b) you are launching your board from one sprint to the next (during a flat water race, but especially DW).
c) you are paddling long distance
There is a remarkable difference, super noticeable on a surfski that glides way better than our slugs. But don't take my word for it. Just place a 6.6 pound water container on your next 35 km run and tell me all about it the next day.
I can only speak with any confidence about c). I intentionally dropped 14lbs over the course of 3 months last year to get ready for a bike event. I've kept it off since then. Over the length of a 2 hour paddle (15-18km), I haven't measured any reliable difference.
(note: However, I did get a real boost in speed from dropping from my 2017 race board to my 2018 that saw a drop in width of 1.5 inches. However, if I were doing sprint races or efforts, yep, physics 101 is obviously going to agree with you.)
Post by: burchas on May 16, 2018, 06:22:20 AM
In the entire history of SUP racing, has anyone ever lost a podium place because their board was 3-4lbs heavier than it might have been?
Or for that matter, because their fin was 3oz heavier ::)
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 07:39:24 AM
Naish is only producing the Maliko in 2018.
All its racers use the Maliko and have decent results in various race conditions including "flat" water.
The Maliko is not using any carbon in its layout except a small band/stringer.
As a result the weight has been reported around 27 lbs for a low volume board with no displacement nose.
To me it brings two opposite possible conclusions:
1) Racers use the same production board (like NSP's team) and the added weight/flexibility has no effect on their performance including on "flat" water
2) Racers are provided with customs boards as they perform better (measured or perceived)
I had the chance to use two identical boards - Bark Vapor - one with only carbon at the bottom (27.6 lbs) and one with carbon top and bottom (24.6 lbs) for some time (these were my own boards). I did not do any GPS comparison swapping boards in the same conditions so I can only comment on my impressions but on a board that I know relatively well and have used for several months.
On "flat" light conditions, the slightly stiffer and lighter model is my first choice for ease of paddling and fun factor. On bigger/winder/choppier/messier conditions the more flexible and heavier model is my preferred choice.
Nothing very dramatic of course but subtle differences.
I did sell the heavier model as having two identical boards is a bit of a waste and I was not going to be having to decide which one to load on the car depending on expected conditions so it would have defeated the purpose based on Murphy's law.
ps: I did not really notice much of a difference regarding the weight of the fin on this specific board. On the other hand, on the Whiplash (22 lbs) I find that having a light carbon fin versus a fibreglass fin change a little bit the feel of the board. That said the fibreglass fin can also have its own quality and advantages so it is not an absolute don't....
Post by: burchas on May 16, 2018, 08:55:22 AM
ps: I did not really notice much of a difference regarding the weight of the fin on this specific board. On the other hand, on the Whiplash (22 lbs) I find that having a light carbon fin versus a fibreglass fin change a little bit the feel of the board. That said the fibreglass fin can also have its own quality and advantages so it is not an absolute don't....
I had the same fin (7inch Stinger) both in Carbon (171g) and fiberglass construction (275g). Tested both on my Blackfish 14x24 (19Lbs) in flat water.
Outside of carrying the board in and out of the water, there was no difference between the 2 as far as I could tell, not even academic.
Post by: Area 10 on May 16, 2018, 09:11:18 AM
A fool and his money are soon parted.
Post by: burchas on May 16, 2018, 09:51:33 AM
Its just that the carbon ones are so easily damaged. So I tend not to use them as much, which is crazy since they are usually about twice the price.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
I guess in our fellow zoner case, he already parted from boatload of money to get the heavier board what's another 200 euros on a fin to shave 3 more ounces, even
if its deep as an anchor. I can see how it make total sense ::)
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 09:52:21 AM
ps: I did not really notice much of a difference regarding the weight of the fin on this specific board. On the other hand, on the Whiplash (22 lbs) I find that having a light carbon fin versus a fibreglass fin change a little bit the feel of the board. That said the fibreglass fin can also have its own quality and advantages so it is not an absolute don't....
I had the same fin (7inch Stinger) both in Carbon (171g) and fiberglass construction (275g). Tested both on my Blackfish 14x24 (19Lbs) in flat water.
Outside of carrying the board in and out of the water, there was no difference between the 2 as far as I could tell, not even academic.
The Stinger does not have much flex to start with so even by Larry's own admission, this is the fin in his range that can benefit from been carbon light.
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 09:55:37 AM
Its just that the carbon ones are so easily damaged. So I tend not to use them as much, which is crazy since they are usually about twice the price.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
I guess in our fellow zoner case, he already parted from boatload of money to get the heavier board what's another 200 euros on a fin to shave 3 more ounces, even
if its deep as an anchor. I can see how it make total sense ::)
Be nice!
Buying fins is not a rational process anyway, we all know that.....is like a kid in a candy store, bad for you but so good.........
Post by: burchas on May 16, 2018, 10:03:35 AM
Its just that the carbon ones are so easily damaged. So I tend not to use them as much, which is crazy since they are usually about twice the price.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
I guess in our fellow zoner case, he already parted from boatload of money to get the heavier board what's another 200 euros on a fin to shave 3 more ounces, even
if its deep as an anchor. I can see how it make total sense ::)
Be nice!
Buying fins is not a rational process anyway, we all know that.....is like a kid in a candy store, bad for you but so good.........
You're right. I'm sorry :-[
Yes, the Stinger will not lose any critical properties by switching to carbon, but durability will suffer.
Post by: Area 10 on May 16, 2018, 10:06:08 AM
Sometimes Ive bought a fin just because it looks nice. Pitiful, really.
But Id really rather that all these super-expensive fins (Black Project, VMG etc etc) were all made of a more durable and cheaper material, even if it doubled the weight, because Ive never bought a fin just because of the weight but I sure as hell have *not* bought one because it was going to cost too much. And the lighter fin will not perform significantly better. So what on Earth is the point??!
Post by: burchas on May 16, 2018, 10:20:44 AM
And the lighter fin will not perform significantly better. So what on Earth is the point??!
I can come up with 2 use cases why, It probably applies to me and maybe Luc.
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 10:36:55 AM
And the lighter fin will not perform significantly better. So what on Earth is the point??!
I can come up with 2 use cases why, It probably applies to me and maybe Luc.
Yes in my Whiplash for some reason having a lighter (buoyant?) fin improve the tail behavior and the feel of the board.
It is not a whoa incredible difference kind of thing but a subtle and definitely noticeable feel.
Outside of this specific case. Did not really notice that the weight change anything to the baking of the cake.
Post by: burchas on May 16, 2018, 10:50:26 AM
And the lighter fin will not perform significantly better. So what on Earth is the point??!
I can come up with 2 use cases why, It probably applies to me and maybe Luc.
Yes in my Whiplash for some reason having a lighter (buoyant?) fin improve the tail behavior and the feel of the board.
It is not a whoa incredible difference kind of thing but a subtle and definitely noticeable feel.
Outside of this specific case. Did not really notice that the weight change anything to the baking of the cake.
;D I was going for something else.
I thought you might be silly enough like me to stop on a downwind run and change the fin to see the difference.
in that case a light floating fin would have an advantage in case a big bump comes along and throw you off sending
your fin to the bottom of the ocean.
The other case, when you have such a large collection and you want to brings bag of fins with you for your travels it is more
convenient to have lighter fins.
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 12:40:59 PM
;D I was going for something else.
I thought you might be silly enough like me to stop on a downwind run and change the fin to see the difference.
in that case a light floating fin would have an advantage in case a big bump comes along and throw you off sending
your fin to the bottom of the ocean.
The other case, when you have such a large collection and you want to brings bag of fins with you for your travels it is more
convenient to have lighter fins.
;D
Also when you throw at the adulating crowds handful of fins during your victory walk after been the last of the race. Lighter fins hurt less.....
Post by: JEG on May 16, 2018, 02:44:40 PM
Also, dont forget mr LA fins as he knows a thing or two about fins ;)
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 03:38:07 PM
photofr, perhaps do a tests between fins such as BP - tiger & sonic and VMG - 35, 37 & TT and let us know how it goes with your board.
Also, dont forget mr LA fins as he knows a thing or two about fins ;)
The Mako TT works really good in the flat or not so flat.
The 6" Stinger is also very nice but might be too short for that board stability (or not).
I also like the Sonic as an all-around/DW fin as an alternate to the Mako 37.
These three fins are my favourite on the Vapor but the Vapor has a fin box really at the back of the tail which is of very moderate volume/width.
I have never tried the Mako 35 or 28 nor the BP Tiger.
Post by: photofr on May 16, 2018, 10:26:34 PM
It will be difficult for me to do fin tests, mainly because I do not have that many fins left. For the last two years, I have been using almost exclusively Black Project fins. My reasons? I have tested quite a few over the years, and the two Black Project fins work perfectly for all my current needs.
Speaking of fins...
Yesterday was quite windy, with intense gusts from time to time. I am getting used to the new 2.0 board, and there are quite a few things that I like about it. Two new things have come up.
BLOWN WITH THE WIND
As mentioned before, this board is very easily blow around when lateral wind starts blowing. There are advantages to having more nose volume, but that's the price a lighter paddler will have to pay. Keep in mind that I have NEVER been blown like this with any board before - although I have been in much stronger winds.
There are 3 possible fixes to this problem.
The first, raise the rear of the board (similar to an Ace) to offset the front end from being blow about. This may be feasible for future models, but I am not about to make modifications to this board.
The second, lower the nose back to its version 1.0 - but making the board more technical for downwind. I am not about to carry out these modification either.
The third, place a ventral fin (small fin box and small fin, placed about 3 feet in front my feet). This would also allow me to reduce the rear fin by about 2/3 of its surface area. This may be something I undertake, to avoid being blown like a butterfly in the wind.
CATCHING BUMPS
I can see why they've added volume in the front for this version 2.0 - it makes surfing / drafting / catching bumps / catching boat wakes a TOTAL BREEZE. I mean, it's child's play - just too easy.
Thanks to the board's super light weight, acceleration was swift, and actually remarkable. The nose was just floating on water, and clearly didn't want to burry itself with water. Board control was very easy - stability was insane. All of this made surfing the boat's wake a walk in the park. It was so easy that I didn't even have to move my feet back. It requires very little skill to surf, again, mainly because of its huge nose volume - and I am directly comparing this to the 1.0 board.
Now this is perhaps very personal, but the 1.0 board required more skills, but after taking two quick steps back, the board surfed really well too. Does a board have to be so easy, at the expense of being super difficult with side wind???
Food for thoughts.
For info... I was paddling with 3 other people. All experienced, one long time surfer, and none of them were able to get on the boat's wake. I took the ride for 2.2 kms - and I'll take that sort of fun any time.
Post by: Luc Benac on May 16, 2018, 11:21:37 PM
Post by: photofr on May 16, 2018, 11:26:50 PM
You make a good point though, and so: I'll give another chance, and see if I can bare the zig-zags on the flat while using the smaller fin. It's bound to be better for side wind then, but yesterday's experience was pretty crappy.
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2018, 01:36:34 AM
One of the many things I greatly admire about the SIC RS design is how superb it is in side winds while still maintaining the advantages of plenty of volume in the nose. Its a clever trick that Mark Raaphorst has managed there. So it is not inevitable that full noses mean terrible sidewind handling - nor do you need crazy high sidewalls at the tail like on the Ace either. But maybe you need a lot of experience in designing SUPs, and a decent amount of development time :)
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2018, 02:59:45 AM
One of the many things I greatly admire about the SIC RS design is how superb it is in side winds while still maintaining the advantages of plenty of volume in the nose. Its a clever trick that Mark Raaphorst has managed there.
I have to say, I haven't heard anyone say anything bad about that board yet. I'd like a little more volume myself but it seems to tick all of the boxes for many people.
Post by: yugi on May 17, 2018, 03:17:18 AM
BLOWN WITH THE WIND
As mentioned before, this board is very easily blow around when lateral wind starts blowing. There are advantages to having more nose volume, but that's the price a lighter paddler will have to pay. Keep in mind that I have NEVER been blown like this with any board before - although I have been in much stronger winds.
I imagine the 11 cities tour has lots of side winds
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2018, 04:37:51 AM
Yeah it really is a beautifully-balanced all-rounder. No obvious weaknesses, and some very definite strengths. Its not the kind of board that photofr is looking for, but it might compete with the 2.0 Nelo perhaps, especially when next year, inevitably, they bring out a 21.5 wide pro model.One of the many things I greatly admire about the SIC RS design is how superb it is in side winds while still maintaining the advantages of plenty of volume in the nose. Its a clever trick that Mark Raaphorst has managed there.
I have to say, I haven't heard anyone say anything bad about that board yet. I'd like a little more volume myself but it seems to tick all of the boxes for many people.
Have you tried one yet? You dont need more volume than you need. The Naish Maliko 14x24 is 244L. The RS 14x24.5 is 288L. Thats a very critical difference for someone your size.
Its just so EASY. And it seems to be more stable the rougher conditions get. So you just tend to get on with your paddling without getting distracted. Light and easy to carry too (for a foam Cobra-built board), and fit and finish is excellent (innegra-reinforced rails will be useful for keen racers). I think most racers could go down a width size from their normal width, its just so well-mannered.
Anyway, back to our regularly-scheduled programming... Im not a fan of fat noses... the Blackfish disappointed me because I felt I was having to push a big balloon up front. In flat water, I found the Mistral Equinox faster than the Ace on which it is based, principally because of a slightly slimmed-down nose and a slightly wider tail. The Ace pitches quite a bit under power: Ryan James on one at full tilt used to bounce up and down like he was on a trampoline, and the result was like a wave generating machine. You could see all the wasted energy radiating out around him. So Id like to see what this Nelo 2.0 does with a powerful unit on board, going at full chat.
Post by: photofr on May 17, 2018, 05:45:18 AM
Did you guys ever wonder why in the World I would make stuff up?
Let's be clear: I had no reason to tell you that the hull of the 2.0 was different, if in fact it wasn't different - but IT IS DIFFERENT.
Some of you went to the website, and noticed that only the deck of the 2.0 had undergone modifications. I kept telling you that the hull was also changed, because the board gained PRIMARY stability. So today, I grabbed the phone and spoke to the man in charge of the design of the Lightcorp.
He was very clear, and I learned a lot. Here's the summary:
- The nose of the 2.0 was made bigger (more volume) to prevent water from entering.
- The nose has a much sharper V shape to allow water to shed quickly from the bow.
- The standing area has been nicely flatten out - with only a slight inverted V shape from center to sides - to still allow quick drainage of water, but to ensure the rider has a more comfortable position.
- The standing area is also shorter to retain less water in open Ocean.
- Sidewalls are a bit taller to prevent water from coming in.
After discussing the above, and me providing my feedback, I proceeded to let him know that I REALLY felt as if the bow was modified. I kept going and told him a) the 2.0 now has more primary stability that couldn't be accounted for with the higher sidewalls and b) the roll was now minimised some. AND BOOM, he laughed a little, but then told me that he had slightly modified the hull as well. The board is still quite rounded, but LESS than the 1.0 version.
Anyway, do you guys see a pattern here?
The 2.0 version is truly made to suit a great many more people - anyone from about 68 kilos on up!
The 2.0 version carries changes that will be positive changes for anyone in that weight range (68 kg +).
The 2.0 version isn't necessarily geared towards the lighter paddler - like me.
The 1.0 version has couple of issues, but it's far better for lighter (super light paddlers).
So instead of guessing, I thought I would share the above information - which makes total sense considering that I was paddling faster with the 1.0 version. Also worth mentioning: they Lightcorp did some very extensive testing with several paddlers and have systematically come up with a 2.0 version that just and bluntly faster - although they didn't put a single paddler under 68 kilos on their new test.
Last but not least, the release of their All Water boards are going to make heads spin - due to arrive in about 2 weeks.
I hope this helps normal human beings.
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2018, 05:47:27 AM
1) Have you tried one yet?
2) You dont need more volume than you need. The Naish Maliko 14x24 is 244L. The RS 14x24.5 is 288L. Thats a very critical difference for someone your size.
3) I think most racers could go down a width size from their normal width, its just so well-mannered.
4) Ryan James on one at full tilt used to bounce up and down like he was on a trampoline, and the result was like a wave generating machine.
1) I haven't. Demo's are hard to come by (although I'm at a local race this weekend which is close to a dealer). There is only one racer in the UK that is using one currently. He did offer me a quick go a couple of months back but i had to rush off sadly.
2) Personally, I really like the Allstar's 300+ litres. Its only for the fact the 2018 23.5 model is still over that amount that might allow me to drop down from my current 24.5. I'm pretty much scuppered on most other brands if I want a competitive (sub 24) width when you look at the volume. I don't see much point moving to another board unless I can get narrower than I am now but their 23 width is only 271 litres. That's too little for me.
3) So I've heard. I doubt its any more of a stability revelation than my current allstar is but I'm open minded to try.
4) I have intimate knowledge of that issue (affecting several Mistral models he used). Needless to say, without being too specific, that led to Mistral in the end creating their 'XL' line.
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2018, 05:49:49 AM
Last but not least, the release of their All Water boards are going to make heads spin - due to arrive in about 2 weeks.
We'll see. I'm certainly waiting on that one (but its already a month overdue from when I was told).
Post by: photofr on May 17, 2018, 05:55:01 AM
Just a quick reminder: the problem that I am currently facing is ONLY due to the fact that I am just too light. Today, I saw 54 kilos on my digital scale - that's a far stretch from an average of 68 kilo person.
Nonetheless, I tried the Nelo 1.0, immediately fell in love with it and placed my order. It took a while, but by the time it arrived with my custom colors, Nelo shipped me the 2.0 version - a board that was updated for heavier paddlers. Clearly, I was furious - because I am just too lightweight.
Looking at options, they all require me to spend more money, to exercice patience, or to simply settle for a used product / refurbished product. In hopes that I will get really fat and one day be 65 kilos or so, I will be keeping this board.
Post by: photofr on May 17, 2018, 06:01:09 AM
Frankly, I think there are very boards on the market suited for lighter paddlers - though you guys are right: I should have tried other boards. However, today is a day where I can say: too little too late - even though they might be great boards.
SETTLING
I'll probably end up paddling SUP just a little less - and only when conditions are favorable - and getting more on my trusted surfski.
RACING 11-CITIES
I'll just paddle for fun - and will not be taking part in that race.
Post by: PonoBill on May 17, 2018, 07:35:52 AM
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2018, 07:46:21 AM
Post by: Luc Benac on May 17, 2018, 07:57:51 AM
it was crazy fast in flat water. It was so fast that I had to go up a blade size with my paddle.
Different topic but one I am very interested in (sorry).
The faster the board the bigger the bigger the paddle blade surface?
I have noticed for down-winding that it was easier to use a large blade when it was really blowing and only a few powerful stroke could get you in the bump but that a smaller blade maintaining many shorter strokes was easier in lighter conditions.
It also seem that on my flat water board the GPS seems to say that I was a little bit faster with my biggest blade (Mana 90) inasmuch as I am comparing many runs with different conditions rather than a back to back Bryce test.
Post by: Area 10 on May 17, 2018, 09:31:14 AM
If you have the kind of downwind conditions that mean you are always moving (rather than where I am, which tends to be stop-start against currents) then you can use an insanely big blade if you like. Hence that giant Big Mama Kalama 120sq ins that Dave Kalama used to use. Even he wouldnt use a blade that big in flat water.
Post by: Eagle on May 17, 2018, 09:46:51 AM
ukgm you mentioned before quite a significant gain in speed racing the 24.5 AS over the 26 Maliko. Now you are thinking of dropping down to the 23.5 AS to gain more speed again. But did you ever do your multi fin speed testing on the 24.5?
DW when the wind blows and your blade becomes a sail -> sometimes you have to hold on tight for fear of it flying away from you. But then using a 116 does that sometimes. Note that 116 was my first paddle that was purchased with my Dom. :)
Post by: photofr on May 17, 2018, 10:13:28 AM
For this reason, and speaking of multi fins - I am thinking of finally looking a into ventral fins - and giving Allison a call to see what he would suggest. The 2.0 has MANY great attributes - and it's only downfall is staying on track in high wind. I am pretty sure I can make all its positive come to life and take care of its negative with a little bit of imagination.
Post by: photofr on May 17, 2018, 10:16:27 AM
("Hey honey... I bought this used banged up thing for the price of a brand spanking new one")
:) :)
Surely, you are laughing (or crying or both).
Post by: Eagle on May 17, 2018, 11:03:40 AM
The speed numbers you posted of the Gen 1 would justify looking into this if we were in a similar situation. Glide and speed are important for us as well. The AS23 showed around a 3 to 5% speed advantage over the Dom over 6 miles. But no doubt everyone is different and you seem content to live with the Gen 2. Have fun with it nonetheless.
Post by: SupSimcoe on May 17, 2018, 01:23:02 PM
My guess is maybe and no are the answers. In that case I would go to your rep and say fix it with a new v1 board in your colour and you get to use a repaired v1 demo or the v2 you have to use until it comes and get all this isn writing with Nelo knowledge and support.
Post by: photofr on May 17, 2018, 10:29:21 PM
I am clearly doomed either way.
Nelo is the builder for Lightcorp, and Nelo is allowed to resale. However, after speaking to Lightcorp, the best they can do is to provide me with a well refurbished board (almost like-new condition). I would also be responsible for shipping costs. To put it in prospective, I would end up spending more money for a used board with my least favorite colors. That's just not acceptable to me.
I might as well save 1/2 of my money, by selling the Nelo, getting my second choice board (a slightly used Sprint 2018 14x21.5, for under 2500 euros) and thus saving a bundle of money in the process. At least the colors would be closerto my liking
Keeping the 2.0 version seems more logical, especially when you consider:
- The 2.0 is faster in DW conditions and far easier on bumps than the Sprint 14x23
- The speed of the 2.0 is getting closer to the 1.0 version on dead flat water - which is why I wanted the Nelo board to begin with
- The 2.0 still bares my colors and the construction I requested.
- The 2.0 has minor drawbacks that I can deal with - it's more difficult upwind and sidewind, but it's still quite fast!!!
@SUPSIM:
I am no longer trying to "convince myself" - I am obviously sad about the situation, because let's face it: when's the last time you got on a board and thought: "This thing is just PERFECT FOR ME" - and yes, version 1.0 was just that for me - with my lightweight - but I will be damned if I am gonna spend the equivalent of 4000 euros on a used board baring my least favorite colors - even if the board works great.
You are right though: at 54 kilos, I wouldn't have placed my order for version 2.0 - but I am the minority in this deal. They could land me a V2 for 12 months, but ending up with a used V1 in the end is still not something I can accept - considering the amount of money we are talking about here. However, I am also trying to place myself in their shoes: If I go and try a 2017 Ford truck, place the order, and obtain a 2018 Ford truck on delivery day, what resource do I really have to complain?
ME: Dude, I liked the 2017 truck better.
REP: Dude, we are no longer making the 2017.
You see, doomed either way - but it's not like the 2018 is bad - it's just "so close" for my lightweight... so FREEKIN' CLOSE, that I am in fact frustrated. But enough about it.... I think I got it out of my system now. "Thanks for listening through these difficult moments"
Heavier paddlers: what can I say - enjoy yet another board built with you in mind!
(I hate you)
:)
Post by: ukgm on May 17, 2018, 11:47:42 PM
it was crazy fast in flat water. It was so fast that I had to go up a blade size with my paddle.
Different topic but one I am very interested in (sorry).
The faster the board the bigger the bigger the paddle blade surface?
It depends on the speed you intend to typically move at, your physiological preferences and your general comfort. For what its worth, I race on a very small Black Project Blade (88sq) but I still have a lot of fun training using a variety of paddles including my absolutely huge Quickblade 'Big Mama Kalame' 130sq behemoth. I love that paddle but its not for the faint hearted.
Post by: warmuth on May 18, 2018, 03:22:35 AM
@AREA: the board you are referring to sounds like a fun fun fun board. If it were a hollow construction, I'd jump on that rather quickly. I am thinking long term here, so durability has got to be way up there on my list.
For this reason, and speaking of multi fins - I am thinking of finally looking a into ventral fins - and giving Allison a call to see what he would suggest. The 2.0 has MANY great attributes - and it's only downfall is staying on track in high wind. I am pretty sure I can make all its positive come to life and take care of its negative with a little bit of imagination.
Installing a fin box in a hollow board will be tricky.
Post by: yugi on May 18, 2018, 03:49:52 AM
Post by: ukgm on May 18, 2018, 03:55:22 AM
@AREA: the board you are referring to sounds like a fun fun fun board. If it were a hollow construction, I'd jump on that rather quickly. I am thinking long term here, so durability has got to be way up there on my list.
For this reason, and speaking of multi fins - I am thinking of finally looking a into ventral fins - and giving Allison a call to see what he would suggest. The 2.0 has MANY great attributes - and it's only downfall is staying on track in high wind. I am pretty sure I can make all its positive come to life and take care of its negative with a little bit of imagination.
Installing a fin box in a hollow board will be tricky.
You'd need an extremely competent boat builder or composite technician to do it. Let alone the fact it would invalidate any warranty the board has.
Post by: Pierre on May 18, 2018, 04:59:40 AM
Haven't tried a ventral fin but imagine it wouldn't be practical for catching a boat wake. Which is always fun.Photofr if you need to contrrol your course DO NOT use a ventral fin, install a daggerboard case 2' ahead of your feet ' like on my 14' and my 18' you know those boards). When not needed, remove daggerboard. ventral fin is a bullshit while downwinding or wave/wake riding like Ygi posted.
I know such fitting is not that easy to build up especially on a hollow hull, but SO GREAT advantage on side wind course control and stability!!!
Post by: Luc Benac on May 18, 2018, 07:33:40 AM
it was crazy fast in flat water. It was so fast that I had to go up a blade size with my paddle.
Different topic but one I am very interested in (sorry).
The faster the board the bigger the bigger the paddle blade surface?
It depends on the speed you intend to typically move at, your physiological preferences and your general comfort. For what its worth, I race on a very small Black Project Blade (88sq) but I still have a lot of fun training using a variety of paddles including my absolutely huge Quickblade 'Big Mama Kalame' 130sq behemoth. I love that paddle but its not for the faint hearted.
I always intend to go fast but never do :-) Let's say that 8km/h on dead flat for anything over 250m is a big accomplishment on a 14'.
The Hydro 88 is 90.4 sqi so your small blade is the size of my biggest blade (Mana 90)
I have started using the Hydro 78 (76.9 sqi) with my 14' Vapor and the Hydro 83 (84.5 sqi) on my Ace-GT and for DW
I have to ask Chris the logic behind the numbering?
I found the Mana 90 too demanding for the stop and go DW we have here when the wind weaken but I can use it for regular paddling with my Ace-GT and Whiplash. Harder with teh Vapor which has noticeably less "glide" than these two.
Post by: photofr on May 18, 2018, 08:37:18 AM
Boat wake
No bad at all on stability
So easy to get up to speed (definitely saving energy there)
Very predictable once it gets going - the bow doesn't catch at all
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-W46f7MZ/0/fcf23620/XL/6705-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-W46f7MZ/A)
The New Bow
Sure, I still wish I had 15 extra kilos on the board.
The bow works perfectly - it's rather quiet
Top of the bow sheds water like crazy fast
Ample overall bow volume
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-7qqjLG8/0/c130a917/XL/6636-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-MAY-12-Nelo-SUP/i-7qqjLG8/A)
Post by: ukgm on May 18, 2018, 08:41:06 AM
Do you know (did they tell you ?) what the volume of the 2.0 board is ?
The New Bow
Sure, I still wish I had 15 extra kilos on the board.
The bow works perfectly - it's rather quiet
Top of the bow sheds water like crazy fast
Ample overall bow volume
Post by: photofr on May 18, 2018, 08:44:13 AM
Keep that in mind: because the new board is really made for the average paddler - which is great news for you guys.
Post by: Luc Benac on May 18, 2018, 08:55:54 AM
No, however, I was told that the 2.0 version was heavily tested by riders of all various weight. When asked if it were tested by super light paddlers, I was told YES. When finally asked what was the weight of the "super light paddler" I was told 68 kilos - and that he was very close to the limit for lightweight paddlers.
Look at the bright side, you knew right from the start how much you were going to pay, at least there was one known parameter.
They could have sold you something where:
1) You did not know what the final product would be (check)
2) You did not know when you would get it exactly (check)
3) You did not know exactly how much it would cost you at the end (saved)
You must be very zen to still support them.
It is one thing to discuss with a shaper and entrust him to design/build the board you will receive, that is part of the contract.
I think it is another one to pre-order long in advance an "off-the-shelf" product and be served with a different product and be asked to be quiet and happy with it as your only option.
Not a very strong endorsement of their ethics toward customers unless it was spelled out to you at the time of purchase.
Post by: photofr on May 18, 2018, 09:11:48 AM
Imagine waiting nearly 3 months for a board, and when you get it: wait... it looks different. What do you do? You go paddle it first, and the second you do that, you can't exactly return it.
Zen?
I am just making the most of it and so I am just adapting to the board.
SUPPORT?
On the other hand, I don't see myself as supporting them - as much as I am sharing info and photos with a cool group of people. But after trying the 2.0 board, you'll have to agree too: the board is "quite the board".
Post by: Luc Benac on May 18, 2018, 09:46:33 AM
It's tough, you know...
Imagine waiting nearly 3 months for a board, and when you get it: wait... it looks different. What do you do? You go paddle it first, and the second you do that, you can't exactly return it.
Zen?
I am just making the most of it and so I am just adapting to the board.
SUPPORT?
On the other hand, I don't see myself as supporting them - as much as I am sharing info and photos with a cool group of people. But after trying the 2.0 board, you'll have to agree too: the board is "quite the board".
I know. I was not reflecting on your actions or decisions but on their business practice if they never told you that you might be receiving the current model rather than the one you ordered.
You can still like the board but not necessarily the company - I used support in that sense.
If this is the way they operate, I would never buy from them.
That said I like to stick to used boards anyway :-)
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2018, 10:10:38 AM
Now they wont give you what you originally ordered.
They should at least offer to take it back (at their cost) and refund your money.
The 3-month wait is nothing. Ive waited twice that for a production board.
That IS a big bow. From the side it looks like a big nose with nostrils.
Maybe you should call it hooter. (Hang on, I think maybe that word means something different in the US than the UK :) )
Either way, IMO Lightcorp/Nelo have made a big boob here ;)
This thread is going to cost them far more in lost orders and goodwill than it would have taken for them to put this right.
And this discussion of ventral fins has highlighted a problem with hollow boards I hadnt considered. Where do you get your dings fixed? How much would it cost to fix them? Easy if you have some specialist nearby. But some people might live hundreds of miles from one.
Post by: photofr on May 18, 2018, 10:23:05 AM
Getting my money back is out of the question.
BOW
Huge, right?
Today, I set it on the rack just below my surfski and walked away for a minute. When I came back, I couldn't help but laugh: my surfski bow is smaller in volume than the Nelo 2.0 - and that's just funny (sad, for my weight - really).
It's a hoot - for sure. :)
HOLLOW BOARD REPAIRS
So super easy!
My first job ever was repairing damaged surfskis, then brand new surfskis that came out of the Mold with issues, and then into construction, before teaching surfski paddling. I can tell you with certainty, fixing a hollow ski / board is a walk in the park. Installing a ventral fin is do-able without a hatch, but I much prefer have a hatch for storage (and let's face it, installing a box with a hatch is just child's play). Remains to hear back from people who have or have had such a setup before making up my mind.
I can't tell you here why the company decided to release a version 2.0 - but the end result is rather simple:
2.0 will meet the needs of far more paddlers than 1.0
(at the cost of breaking my heart - and I take paddling at heart)
Post by: Eagle on May 18, 2018, 11:01:28 AM
You did order a 1.0 and were given a 2.0. That just seems plain and simple wrong. Very surprised indeed you have been put into this unfortunate situation and have to live with a board you never ordered and is clearly not suited for your body weight.
We would send it back and get a re-furb at a big discount or get the 21.5 Sprint and not look back. That board has amazing glide and does not feel corky for light weight riders. Goes straight as an arrow as well.
Post by: mr_proper on May 18, 2018, 12:00:08 PM
I order a board without special version (because I don't know that there is already a new version) and get the version 1.0. Two days later, I read somewhere that there is now version 2.0. I would like to have version 2.0 then too.
However it is handled, the company will always go wrong. Depending on the nature of the customer.
Of course, it would have been correct to point out the version 2.0 in the order confirmation.
I would be happy about the new version. Unfortunately, they are not yet available as 24.5.
I'm curious about the Allwater. Looks interesting.
Post by: Eagle on May 18, 2018, 01:53:35 PM
For us if we ordered a 1.0 and got a corky 2.0 -> we would return it. But as noted others sometimes want a more stable potentially slower board so the 2.0 would be better for them. Nelo went where the demand was. The 1.0 was too tippy and let in too much water. So they made that 23" wide board easier to handle for more potential buyers. Not many paddlers or racers are 54 or whatever kgs (118.8 lbs). That is extremely light. Even 60 kgs (132 lbs) is very light for any man. The market is tiny for that sector of paddlers.
"You are right though: at 54 kilos, I wouldn't have placed my order for version 2.0"
Post by: Eagle on May 18, 2018, 02:35:43 PM
Would seriously consider your used Sprint 21.5 option. ;)
Post by: Luc Benac on May 18, 2018, 03:33:57 PM
You can also see it differently.
I order a board without special version (because I don't know that there is already a new version) and get the version 1.0. Two days later, I read somewhere that there is now version 2.0. I would like to have version 2.0 then too.
However it is handled, the company will always go wrong. Depending on the nature of the customer.
Of course, it would have been correct to point out the version 2.0 in the order confirmation.
I would be happy about the new version. Unfortunately, they are not yet available as 24.5.
I'm curious about the Allwater. Looks interesting.
Fair point but anybody ordering the available version at the time would be hard pressed to complain that they did receive the version they ordered.
It is indeed made more complicated because there is not something like a 2017 model versus a 2018 model which is fairly easy to identify and include in a pre-order.
They might likely complained that they were not told about the upcoming version nor given a choice or a discount on the past version and even that would be pushing it.
Maybe you want to swap boards with PhotoFR :-)
Post by: photofr on May 18, 2018, 03:34:14 PM
You can also see it differently.
I order a board without special version (because I don't know that there is already a new version) and get the version 1.0. Two days later, I read somewhere that there is now version 2.0. I would like to have version 2.0 then too.
However it is handled, the company will always go wrong. Depending on the nature of the customer.
Of course, it would have been correct to point out the version 2.0 in the order confirmation.
I would be happy about the new version. Unfortunately, they are not yet available as 24.5.
I'm curious about the Allwater. Looks interesting.
YES - I think you nailed it; inevitably, it's all about communication (or the lack thereof). Pretty much anyone else would have been super happy to try the 1.0 and get the 2.0 - but as mentioned by someone else here: no one expected a feather lightweight paddler to take the 1.0 at heart.
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2018, 05:02:48 PM
Post by: Eagle on May 18, 2018, 05:22:41 PM
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2018, 07:46:35 PM
My SIC RS 14x26 gives me a ratio of 3.7 and its so stable its like paddling a floating dock - Im even thinking maybe I should have gone a board width down. To add more volume to get to 4.0 or over would be nuts.
I was paddling with a guy yesterday who had an old Starboard that was 217L. He was going just fine on it and he must have been 85-90kgs or so.
So, while Starboard may say that the 21.5 wide sprint can be used by 45kg people, that doesnt mean it is *optimal* for them. Any extra volume than you need is just dead weight and volume holding you back. It shouldnt be there!
For photfr to have the same volume/ratio as most average moderately-keen racers that are my size have in something like the SIC RS type design, his board would be around 183L only. So given that he wants a flat-water board not an all-waters one, he might be able to go even less than that. In this way, once you actually do the maths you can see exactly why photofr is complaining about all the production boards having too much volume for him: hes right. He can go smaller than any production 14 that is currently on the market (to my knowledge) - and probably SHOULD. Never mind trying to push that hulking great Nelo 2.0 through the water.
Post by: Eagle on May 18, 2018, 08:04:00 PM
https://www.supboardermag.com/equipment_guide/supkids-sprint-106-x-21-5-carbon-2017/
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2018, 08:13:13 PM
I wonder what the lowest volume 14ft race SUP on the market actually is?
Post by: Eagle on May 18, 2018, 08:17:51 PM
At 23 the Nelo was pretty narrow without any hard edges to slow the roll. Flattening the bottom and adding volume will appeal to many more racers and paddlers. My take was that 14 Sprint 21.5 was already pretty low volume for a men's board. There may be even less volume production boards -> but then you get to the narrow end of the buyer spectrum again.
Post by: Area 10 on May 19, 2018, 02:13:59 AM
Its too bulky to be ideal for photofr.
He also knows about it so if hed wanted one he could have bought one.
And anyway, who gets excited about a Sprint? It looks like it belongs in a skip the day after youve bought it, and the Starboard construction is in my experience woeful - after a few years my Ace is so much tattier than the rest of my boards of a similar age (or older) its crazy. Photofr is looking for something truly special, and looks clearly matter to him. I dont see anything being offered from the main brands that would suit him it will need to be under 200L really.
At 54kg if you paddle a board designed for someone who is only 65kgs you are still pushing around about about 20% more board than is ideal. Its a huge difference if you want the ultimate in performance.
I paddle a SIC RS at 306L. If my board had 20% more volume than that it would be nearly 370L. 370L?? Who needs that much volume for a small-average sized guy? And so it is with photofr. Michael Booth paddles a 14x21.5 Sprint. He probably weighs 30% more (or more) than photofr. So the board that is right for him will not be right for photofr.
Hes going to have to go custom, I think. Joe Bark would make him an amazing custom. So would Mark Raaphorst. Im guessing they probably wouldnt cost much more (or any more) than hes already paid for that Nelo. Both of those shapers will have made extremely fast flat water boards for females around the 54kg mark, Id imagine. A 21 wide version of the X14 pro lite would be incredible, and Im guessing would be around the 198L mark, which would be plenty for 54kgs. Lina Augaitis became the fastest women paddler on earth at the 2014 Lost Mills contest in Germany on the 24 wide version, so its scary to think how fast one that was 3 narrower would be. It is inherently a low-volume design with a small sharp bow, so none of the weathervaning that photofr has been complaining about with the Nelo. By contrast the Sprint is designed to carry plenty of volume so that heavier riders can use a narrower profile. In this way its not really inherently a design aimed at very light people.
Post by: yugi on May 19, 2018, 03:21:53 AM
Post by: mr_proper on May 19, 2018, 03:51:08 AM
Post by: Area 10 on May 19, 2018, 05:34:24 AM
Maybe a custom board from 3bay is an option? Price for a custom is really ok.Yeah thats a good idea. The standard models are still perhaps a bit bulky for photofr but a 21 slimmed-down version would probably be a rocket. And its only 8.9kg for the 14x23. So a version that might be as much as 40-50L smaller would be crazy light.
Post by: Eagle on May 19, 2018, 06:05:25 AM
Well the Sprint 21.5 was his Plan B. But we have gone over this all before going full circle now. Difference is he has tried the Nelo 1.0 and liked it. But has been given a 2.0 board he would not choose to buy if he had the choice.
A few of us suggested a super narrow Bark type custom spear to get him the glide he always wanted long ago -> but in the end he decided to order the Nelo 23. Unfortunately now he is stuck with a 2.0 board he really does not want.
Clearly no 14 men's production board is designed for him. Getting all blown about by a huge nose and not being able to paddle straight must be frustrating. But at 118.8 lbs that is understandable. He really is in a tough spot -> unless he drops the volume way down via a 14 custom say 19-20" wide.
Post by: Area 10 on May 19, 2018, 06:30:49 AM
Post by: Eagle on May 19, 2018, 06:49:19 AM
The lack of muscle mass may be a big part of the problem here. He may not have a good power to weight ratio. Because he is so light weight he gets blown about like a feather. He needs plenty of muscle and power to keep his board torqued to go straight especially in any side wind. That is why he is now looking for a ventral to help him out. Fighting off a huge bow that sits high off the water must be a huge challenge for him.
He will no doubt get this sorted as he has tried many boards before like the AS25 Sprint23 Sprint UL Ace25 etc. But none of those have been keepers for him. At some point however he will find the right board for his requirements. Whether it be a stop-gap used Sprint 21.5 or new custom build or whatever.
Post by: Luc Benac on May 19, 2018, 07:17:50 AM
I would cringe at having one shipped to Europe....but if you really want something PhotoFR seems like he could take some risks :-)
Post by: JEG on May 19, 2018, 01:21:35 PM
Post by: photofr on May 19, 2018, 11:43:39 PM
Top of the list:
UL 17'6x23" - pin tail, pin nose, super light, fast and very versatile.
I sold it because it was nearing the end of its life - after 6000+ kilometres in open water.
Nelo 1.0 - I thought it was it: a perfect contender for racing in the 14' category.
I was so eager to receiving it - even had vivid dreams about it while I waited and waited.
Its main attribute to me was speed, and amazing glide - coming from a highly pronounced rounded hull, but topping it all with low volume (great for me, because I am rather light). This was short-lived.
Nelo 2.0 14x23 - It has many great attributes - but not geared towards paddlers under 65 kilos. I still love its overall speed, love the way it glides, and its construction is actually stronger than version 1.0. At 54 kilos, I am however rather penalised. It's just enough to dissuade me from racing the 11-City Race (long distance).
--------------------
My next board will be a custom board - but it's going to break the bank (it's going to hurt), however, if it turns out the way I want, it will be the funnest and most versatile board ever to really put in some miles - and glide like mad. Suffice to say that it will be a UL, designed for my weight, and will most likely not be allowed on races. It will break the bank - for sure.
Life as a lightweight paddler has been is still is a compromise. As far as compromise go, the Nelo 2.0 is still a very good contender - and judging from paddling over 200 km on the 2.0 so far, I can tell you that thing is GOING TO LAST.
CHANGES
The easiest changes I can make right now (and the cheapest) is going to be me. Building more muscles, working on technique... these help more than one can imagine. It's not like I was taking a 14x25 Allstar and trying to make it suit my feather-weight. In fact, the Nelo 2.0 is the farthest board from an AS 14x25.
NEW BOARD?
Buying a new stock board right now, or swapping for a used one isn't realistic as it will still be a compromise. Getting a custom made board is the answer, but not at all feasible at the moment.
GOOD NEWS
The good news for me is that the 2.0 is still a fantastic board. It's still better (for me) than at least a dozen boards I can name, right off the rack - but that's personal (because of what I want out of a board).
For those of you who are 65+ kilos, and have pretty good balance, the 2.0 board will most likely exceed your expectation. Don't think for a second that this board is for "flat water only" - because judging from its handling, that's not its sole purpose in life. For the heavier paddler, the 2.0 brings you net advantages over the 1.0 (the exact changes that are hurting me as a lightweight paddler)
- more volume (less water in your cockpit and more versatile)
- more stability (hull is still round, but slightly less than the 1.0)
IMPORTANT NOTE
I am sitting here telling you how great the 1.0 board was, but I gotta let it go!
The 1.0 version was almost a dream come true - for my lightweight. But let's be clear: the 1.0 version is not exactly the most compatible board for 99.5% of the people on Earth. In that respect, the 2.0 is far more suited for the mass (no punt intended).
:)
Post by: Area 10 on May 20, 2018, 03:44:28 AM
Post by: Eagle on May 20, 2018, 09:32:31 AM
CHANGESYep add muscle mass and improve technique. That should help resolve your problems controlling that board. But would concentrate on technique first as building muscle mass is doable but pretty hard after age 50 due to sarcopenia and somatopause.
The easiest changes I can make right now (and the cheapest) is going to be me. Building more muscles, working on technique... these help more than one can imagine.
Technique improvements should yield much faster results in the short term. But mid and long term -> building strength and power are nonetheless super important. ;)
Post by: photofr on May 21, 2018, 01:24:36 AM
Ok well this might be the first post on the Zone you have ever made, photofr, where everyone agrees with you :)
This is some funny "stuff".
Waking up to an agreement just brightens my day :) :) :) :)
In the end, it is what it is: we share facts, but we also share feeling. Think about how boring it would be if you agreed with me all the time?
Post by: mr_proper on June 04, 2018, 10:19:13 PM
I paddle a SIC RS at 306L.
I would like to buy a board for all conditions that are to heavy for me with the lightcorp. So my plan is, to sell my Bullet V1 and my Allstar 14x24.5 and buy the SIC RS 14x26. Would you recommend this board and the width for a 203 lbs and 6.4 ft paddler?
Post by: Area 10 on June 05, 2018, 01:29:42 AM
Well, now I see that in many places the volume of the 14x26 RS is quoted as 315L.I paddle a SIC RS at 306L.
I would like to buy a board for all conditions that are to heavy for me with the lightcorp. So my plan is, to sell my Bullet V1 and my Allstar 14x24.5 and buy the SIC RS 14x26. Would you recommend this board and the width for a 203 lbs and 6.4 ft paddler?
Anyway, I think that anyone would hesitate to recommend a board for anyone else. Recommend is a strong word, and there are so many variables involved in determining what board suits another person.
But having said that, a friend who must be around your weight, or probably even a little heavier, recently tried my 14x26 RS and it trimmed fine for him when he stood with his feet either side of the handle. For some reason people often tend to naturally place their feet slightly behind the handle when they get on the RS. But standing where Mark R expected you to stand means you get the most out of it, unless you are in special conditions that really warrant a different approach.
Your height (as opposed to width) only really matters in relation to stability and width rather than volume, and I assume from the list of boards you own that your balance is good. The 14x26 is very easy for a race design in chop.
Its a shame that SIC dont give paddled weight recommendations for their boards. But Naish gives 210 lbs as the upper weight limit for the 14x26 Maliko at 264L, and the RS is more noticeably stable than that in tricky side-chop conditions, and would I have thought handle riders that are heavier than the Maliko.
So, the obvious thing to say - of course - is demo if at all possible. And the RS is a lot more technical to ride in good size downwind than the Bullet V1 (which I also own). If its big downwind you do often then you might want to hold onto the Bullet, which is a great board for bumps much over knee-high. The RS is freakishly fast in downbreeze conditions with little ripples (up to about 1 ft) but you need good footwork to get the best out of it in proper full-on downwind, and that can get a bit tiring after a while. But as I say, in small downwind (and indeed upwind against ripples) its capacity to go fast is extraordinary. I guess that Mark intends the Bayonet to be for medium size downwind, and the Bullet for big stuff (that probably the majority of paddlers these days will never experience).
So when you describe the conditions you want it for as too heavy for the lightcorp, Im not sure exactly how heavy you mean. If you mean Maliko or M2O heavy then the RS is not really for that. But if you mean conditions e.g. up to and including what weve seen on the Euro Tour the last couple of weekends (check the videos on SUP Racer) then the RS should do well.
Hope this helps.
Post by: mr_proper on June 05, 2018, 07:28:31 AM
Unfortunately I do not have the possibility for a big downwinder and it is rather downbreezer on lakes and sometimes river. Or a lot of boat wakes on our river.
So your example with the eurotour fits perfect.
Post by: Area 10 on June 05, 2018, 08:56:05 AM
hello Area10, thanks a lot for your detailed statement. this helps me and confirms my assumption.Well, thats that decided then. For downbreezers on lakes and rivers with up to one foot bumps the RS goes like absolute sh1t off a shovel. It seems to milk every tiny little ripple. Its noticeably faster than e.g. the Maliko in those conditions. And its brilliant at handling boat wakes.
Unfortunately I do not have the possibility for a big downwinder and it is rather downbreezer on lakes and sometimes river. Or a lot of boat wakes on our river.
So your example with the eurotour fits perfect.
Btw its surprising how handy the deck bungees have turned out to be, too. Very useful for day-to-day training, and I now even sometimes find myself taking it out instead of my other boards because it has them. Its unusual to find deck rigging on a race board. But it was actually genius of Mark Raaphorst to include them, and its the sort of touch that youd only insist on if you really paddle your own designs a lot. Theres also a nice flat bit on top of the front deck that makes mounting a GPS like the Velocitek Makai easy. Hes thought of everything.
Post by: mr_proper on June 05, 2018, 11:38:52 AM
Thanks again.
Post by: fpjeepy05 on June 08, 2018, 12:24:05 PM
Post by: photofr on June 08, 2018, 12:48:49 PM
The Nelo board isn't flat water only though...so food for thoughts.
Post by: Eagle on June 08, 2018, 03:33:15 PM
RS used a 21 custom for 11 Cities. So for really lightweight paddlers a 20 should be fine. 23s just have so much more form drag vs 21.5 and less spears.
"The 14' x 21" Blue Planet dugout race board"
https://blueplanetsurf.com/news/sup-11-city-tour-and-paddle-expo-euro-trip-report/
Post by: fpjeepy05 on July 17, 2018, 01:00:02 PM
Yeah for flat water 23 is pretty wide. 21.5 or less makes more sense based on what top racers are on. For me as well 23 feel draggy vs a 21.5 spear.
RS used a 21 custom for 11 Cities. So for really lightweight paddlers a 20 should be fine. 23s just have so much more form drag vs 21.5 and less spears.
"The 14' x 21" Blue Planet dugout race board"
https://blueplanetsurf.com/news/sup-11-city-tour-and-paddle-expo-euro-trip-report/
Agreed
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 17, 2018, 02:36:51 PM
Yeah for flat water 23 is pretty wide. 21.5 or less makes more sense based on what top racers are on. For me as well 23 feel draggy vs a 21.5 spear.
RS used a 21 custom for 11 Cities. So for really lightweight paddlers a 20 should be fine. 23s just have so much more form drag vs 21.5 and less spears.
"The 14' x 21" Blue Planet dugout race board"
https://blueplanetsurf.com/news/sup-11-city-tour-and-paddle-expo-euro-trip-report/
That BP 21" racer has been available for a while.
https://www.blueplanetsup.eu/products/d/race_touring/dug_out_series
I would love to try it out but I cannot seem to find any local event where they have a stand (Southern Germany). :(
Post by: Eagle on July 17, 2018, 02:58:56 PM
Post by: ukgm on July 18, 2018, 03:54:49 AM
Yeah for flat water 23 is pretty wide. 21.5 or less makes more sense based on what top racers are on. For me as well 23 feel draggy vs a 21.5 spear.The fact we're saying that now is amazing. How the hell did we end up here so fast.
Post by: Area 10 on July 18, 2018, 04:49:37 AM
It hasnt been particularly fast, and has been pretty steady. 10 years ago the height of SUP race technology was a Starboard K15, which was 30 wide. Other (14ft) boards were in the 27.5-30 range. So I think weve just been steadily dropping at a rate of around 0.75 year on year for the last 10 years, thats all.Yeah for flat water 23 is pretty wide. 21.5 or less makes more sense based on what top racers are on. For me as well 23 feel draggy vs a 21.5 spear.The fact we're saying that now is amazing. How the hell did we end up here so fast.
Its not going to stop at 21, for sure. By my reckoning we will be Sub-20 around the 2021 season, and I doubt if we will stop getting narrower until either regulation cones in, and/orthe top Male paddlers are all under 20 and no more than 140lbs..
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 18, 2018, 08:04:07 AM
You can always send him a PM and see what he can arrange for you.Good idea. Thanks!
Post by: Eagle on July 18, 2018, 09:48:22 AM
Yeah for flat water 23 is pretty wide. 21.5 or less makes more sense based on what top racers are on. For me as well 23 feel draggy vs a 21.5 spear.The fact we're saying that now is amazing. How the hell did we end up here so fast.
Haha! Was thinking about you yesterday as I took out a Sunova 25 Flatwater. Might be an option for you to consider. Has a sunken deck and felt faster than an AS24.5 with a lot less splash. Weighed less in balsa than my CS AS23 -> and very fast and stable.
Was told Norm uses a 23.5 and Lina a 22. The shape is very slippery with rounded edges ending in a panel vee. Was able to put the hammer down and the board took off like a shot. Has more more initial tip but secondary stability was very good. So should be a good board for racing or fitness. Glide felt really good for a 25. Probs best of any 25 or wider I have tried and maybe as good as my AS. Nose felt it did not push a lot of water -> which is so much better than the splashy boof designs.
A good 2 board quiver would be a Flatwater and a Bullet 14V2 for many in these parts. Most all FW AW and DW conditions would be covered. The board tested was 2018 but was told the design is not expected to change much for 2019. Would have been nice to try the 23.5 or 22 -> but the stars did not align. The 22 might even be a touch less stable than the 21.5 Sprint. Expect Lina to be on the elite podium some time soon. Norm has already won some local races on his.
The 82 sq in Sunova carbon paddle felt very good as well. Shaft was pretty stiff pumping out quite a bit of clean power with not much slip.
https://sunovasurfboards.com/en/sup/flatwater-touring-race/flatwater-faast-pro
Post by: Eagle on July 18, 2018, 12:17:00 PM
Once boards progressed from the 27.5 Dom down to 25 then 23 -> confidence and skill levels increased with use in all conditions. Using myself as an example the 25 Sprint and 25 Race were boards I considered buying years ago. They were nice but just did not suit my purposes at the time.
Then my AS23 came along -> and that board was as or more stable than the old 25 Sprint. So had no real purpose looking at 25+ wide boards. But can say the custom 25 Eradicator that Norm used was a fantastic fast stable ride. Then tried the 21.5 Sprint and was surprised how stable that board was. So it did take some time to get there. The key for me was actually getting past the width number part of the equation and just powering up and having fun on the board. The 21.5 Sprint was a revelation in glide and efficiency.
But for the top elite the 21.5 Sprint etc must be child's play -> as demonstrated long ago by Connor and Bart paddling backwards in big Maliko wind and swells on very old SB designs. So for me was not that surprising at all the top elite are racing on 21.5 spears and killing it like Boothy in pretty nasty conditions.
Edit: When you actually see how good the top men and women are -> it is very easy to appreciate how crappy of a paddler you are in comparison. And how much your skill and power and balance levels really suck.
Post by: Area 10 on July 18, 2018, 08:05:24 PM
Maybe its just because SUP is still a young sport that many of us can remember when we were one of the few doing it, and so were relatively pretty good at it. But the up and coming new breed of racers were not even in their teens then, so will have spent at least some of those early years SUPing, when you learn so fast, and your body adapts so quickly. By contrast, most of us were already adults before SUP appeared. So theres no chance for us to stay in touch with the kids who have grown up with SUP. Move over, grandad, youve had your time.
Post by: Luc Benac on July 18, 2018, 08:12:32 PM
Post by: Area 10 on July 19, 2018, 06:04:51 AM
I was in a race last Saturday (that ended up been a 20km flat water slog instead of a downwinder as expected) and out of curiosity I plotted the age groups from the result:The old geezers are doing well. But stick them all on 21 wide boards and see what the times will be ;)
The youngsters havent really yet had a chance to really gap the oldies because up until about this year the boards available have all been too wide to be optimal for the most gifted kids. The 2019 season will be when we really see the elite teenagers starting to leave the elite oldsters (Danny, Travis, Sonni, Candice etc) behind, and the gap will be even bigger amongst the weekend warriors.
Post by: JEG on July 19, 2018, 06:04:34 PM
Post by: Luc Benac on July 19, 2018, 06:36:24 PM
those are fast times for 20km paddle. 8)
Tide was flowing :-)
Post by: mr_proper on July 28, 2018, 11:59:40 PM
Perfect. So I will sell my Boards ;D
Thanks again.
For two weeks I have the RS 14x26 and since then paddled 150 km with it. I'm very satisfied. Stable as a tanker and under normal conditions almost as fast as the Nelo. Unbelievable actually.
Post by: ukgm on July 29, 2018, 09:49:57 AM
Perfect. So I will sell my Boards ;D
Thanks again.
For two weeks I have the RS 14x26 and since then paddled 150 km with it. I'm very satisfied. Stable as a tanker and under normal conditions almost as fast as the Nelo. Unbelievable actually.
For such different designs, it doesn't inspire confidence with the Nelo.
Post by: Area 10 on July 29, 2018, 07:40:40 PM
Im glad its worked out for you. But I was pretty confident that it would!Perfect. So I will sell my Boards ;D
Thanks again.
For two weeks I have the RS 14x26 and since then paddled 150 km with it. I'm very satisfied. Stable as a tanker and under normal conditions almost as fast as the Nelo. Unbelievable actually.
Im tempted now to buy another RS, but narrower, for flatter conditions. Extravagent, I know. But I like paddling them.
Post by: mr_proper on July 29, 2018, 09:24:24 PM
Post by: ukgm on July 29, 2018, 11:30:47 PM
Im glad its worked out for you. But I was pretty confident that it would!Perfect. So I will sell my Boards ;D
Thanks again.
For two weeks I have the RS 14x26 and since then paddled 150 km with it. I'm very satisfied. Stable as a tanker and under normal conditions almost as fast as the Nelo. Unbelievable actually.
Im tempted now to buy another RS, but narrower, for flatter conditions. Extravagent, I know. But I like paddling them.
How low can you go ?
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 30, 2018, 06:59:22 AM
Please try the 23" wide version and let us know your thoughts. :)Im glad its worked out for you. But I was pretty confident that it would!Perfect. So I will sell my Boards ;D
Thanks again.
For two weeks I have the RS 14x26 and since then paddled 150 km with it. I'm very satisfied. Stable as a tanker and under normal conditions almost as fast as the Nelo. Unbelievable actually.
Im tempted now to buy another RS, but narrower, for flatter conditions. Extravagent, I know. But I like paddling them.
Unfortunately I won't be able to paddle with one till maybe next week (retailer's currently on vacation).
Post by: Area 10 on July 30, 2018, 09:39:17 AM
Yes, thats the dilemma. The 24 board is actually 24.4 wide, and so I dont know if going down only 1.6 is enough to warrant another purchase. But Ive had a 23 wide board before, and I was pretty slow on it. So I need to demo one, ideally in the conditions I use it, either a 24.4 or a 23. My head is telling me that 24.4 is probably perfect for me, however. That extra 0.4 on the 24 might actually be just right for me. Ill try to find a demo, or pay to borrow someones.Please try the 23" wide version and let us know your thoughts. :)Im glad its worked out for you. But I was pretty confident that it would!Perfect. So I will sell my Boards ;D
Thanks again.
For two weeks I have the RS 14x26 and since then paddled 150 km with it. I'm very satisfied. Stable as a tanker and under normal conditions almost as fast as the Nelo. Unbelievable actually.
Im tempted now to buy another RS, but narrower, for flatter conditions. Extravagent, I know. But I like paddling them.
Unfortunately I won't be able to paddle with one till maybe next week (retailer's currently on vacation).
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 30, 2018, 12:07:32 PM
Yes, thats the dilemma. The 24 board is actually 24.4 wide, and so I dont know if going down only 1.6 is enough to warrant another purchase. But Ive had a 23 wide board before, and I was pretty slow on it. So I need to demo one, ideally in the conditions I use it, either a 24.4 or a 23. My head is telling me that 24.4 is probably perfect for me, however. That extra 0.4 on the 24 might actually be just right for me. Ill try to find a demo, or pay to borrow someones.If you are talking about the 2018 models, I believe it's 24.5" wide.
Post by: Area 10 on July 30, 2018, 12:29:16 PM
SIC website says 24.4, 62.2cm.Yes, thats the dilemma. The 24 board is actually 24.4 wide, and so I dont know if going down only 1.6 is enough to warrant another purchase. But Ive had a 23 wide board before, and I was pretty slow on it. So I need to demo one, ideally in the conditions I use it, either a 24.4 or a 23. My head is telling me that 24.4 is probably perfect for me, however. That extra 0.4 on the 24 might actually be just right for me. Ill try to find a demo, or pay to borrow someones.If you are talking about the 2018 models, I believe it's 24.5" wide.
62.2cm is actually 24.488. So who knows? Its somewhere around 24.4-24.5ish.
https://sicmaui.com/rs-14-0-scc/
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
I wonder whether that site is outdated. For one, it doesn't contain the 28" wide model.SIC website says 24.4, 62.2cm.Yes, thats the dilemma. The 24 board is actually 24.4 wide, and so I dont know if going down only 1.6 is enough to warrant another purchase. But Ive had a 23 wide board before, and I was pretty slow on it. So I need to demo one, ideally in the conditions I use it, either a 24.4 or a 23. My head is telling me that 24.4 is probably perfect for me, however. That extra 0.4 on the 24 might actually be just right for me. Ill try to find a demo, or pay to borrow someones.If you are talking about the 2018 models, I believe it's 24.5" wide.
62.2cm is actually 24.488. So who knows? Its somewhere around 24.4-24.5ish.
https://sicmaui.com/rs-14-0-scc/
https://www.storesicmaui.com/boards/displacement-hull.html
Note the difference in both volume and weight.
Post by: Area 10 on July 30, 2018, 03:16:28 PM
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 31, 2018, 01:14:32 AM
Crikey - the 14x28 RS is gonna be a seriously stable board! 330L too. That should please some big guys. Would be great for very long trips I guess.Oh, I actually meant that the 24.4" and 24.5" wide models have different specifications.
- 24.4": 297 L, 25.8 lbs
- 24.5": 288 L, 24.7 lbs
Post by: mr_proper on July 31, 2018, 01:26:57 AM
Crikey - the 14x28 RS is gonna be a seriously stable board! 330L too. That should please some big guys. Would be great for very long trips I guess.Oh, I actually meant that the 24.4" and 24.5" wide models have different specifications.That's what made me wonder whether one of them is obsolete.
- 24.4": 297 L, 25.8 lbs
- 24.5": 288 L, 24.7 lbs
The link from Area10 seems to be the right one. Because there are 315l specified for the RS14x26 and this value is also printed on my board.
Post by: ukgm on July 31, 2018, 02:16:09 AM
Crikey - the 14x28 RS is gonna be a seriously stable board! 330L too. That should please some big guys. Would be great for very long trips I guess.
It would have to because on a boat that size, you'll be stuck out on it all damn day.
Post by: Area 10 on July 31, 2018, 10:29:44 AM
Nah, many people would be faster on the 28 than the 24.Crikey - the 14x28 RS is gonna be a seriously stable board! 330L too. That should please some big guys. Would be great for very long trips I guess.
It would have to because on a boat that size, you'll be stuck out on it all damn day.
I tried the 14x28 Naish Maliko and really liked it for general fun ocean paddling. It reminded me of how much fun it can be to paddle a really stable board.
I think its great that these brands are bringing out 28 wide versions of their top raceboards for people who want a race/tourer rather than either a tippy dedicated racer or a totally barge-like touring board.
After the M2O this year, with Kai coming home nearly 1.5 hrs ahead of the winning UL SUP, I reckon many of the people who are currently on very narrow boards will next year be on foils, and then these super-narrow 14 boards might almost disappear. We are already seeing a resurgence of the UL class, which is where the rest of the narrow 14s riders (who dont get foils) will go...
Post by: Lake Paddler on July 31, 2018, 11:25:13 AM
I see. That's really weird though...Crikey - the 14x28 RS is gonna be a seriously stable board! 330L too. That should please some big guys. Would be great for very long trips I guess.Oh, I actually meant that the 24.4" and 24.5" wide models have different specifications.That's what made me wonder whether one of them is obsolete.
- 24.4": 297 L, 25.8 lbs
- 24.5": 288 L, 24.7 lbs
The link from Area10 seems to be the right one. Because there are 315l specified for the RS14x26 and this value is also printed on my board.
Post by: JEG on July 31, 2018, 03:49:56 PM
Post by: ukgm on August 01, 2018, 02:04:29 AM
I think the future discipline will be UL, foil & 14.
I don't think so as far as general racing goes. Foil is limited to decent downwind or swell based races for their full length. That's going to be a small pool and those races don't get huge numbers (and won't see many speculators buying foils for maybe one or two races a year). The UL revolution isn't coming (at least not in Europe) and its in a similar situation to foils (specialised and low number of races allowing it).
That just leaves 14's. I would like to see this length challenged but I think it's now so ingrained, it's unlikely. Whilst other sports such as cycling and sailing have seen equipment evolution, such changes weren't often legislated against from the outset. In SUP's case, it would need a huge push from manufacturers to warrant it. In my view, I'd personally like to see the UL become mainstream for all water states to kickstart some innovation but I think that ship has literally sailed.
Post by: ukgm on August 01, 2018, 02:11:47 AM
Nah, many people would be faster on the 28 than the 24.
1) I tried the 14x28 Naish Maliko and really liked it for general fun ocean paddling. It reminded me of how much fun it can be to paddle a really stable board.
2) After the M2O this year, with Kai coming home nearly 1.5 hrs ahead of the winning UL SUP, I reckon many of the people who are currently on very narrow boards will next year be on foils, and then these super-narrow 14 boards might almost disappear.
3) We are already seeing a resurgence of the UL class, which is where the rest of the narrow 14s riders (who dont get foils) will go...
1) You're absolutely right.
2) I doubt it. The number of races is still too small, too expensive for an international market to get to and its too specialised a piece of equipment to train regularly with. It's always going to be cool but never going to be mass participation. The narrow raceboards will become more widely used in the majority of SUP races I feel, not less.
3) I think resurgence is stretching it. In the few international races there might be a few more but that's not where the racing footfall is. Until race organisers open races up to unlimiteds again (most just don't let them now), its going to [sadly] stay as a dinosaur in anything other than M20 and similar races.
Post by: mr_proper on August 06, 2018, 11:11:18 PM
Thanks :-)
Post by: Luc Benac on August 08, 2018, 09:04:28 PM
I'm specifically referring to downwind conditions, it really sucked for me with the new board and I wasn't having fun, I kept missing bumps and
connections and I felt my timing is really screwed up, so much that I could no longer blame my mediocre technic and conditioning.
This is how the GTX came about. I'll let the results speak:
Here is a video of the day with the GTX.
https://youtu.be/boN5djsEzkY
I know that Area10 will shake his head :-) in a friendly fashion but I received from Larry a new fin the GTS which is a smaller version of the GTX that Burchas uses for its 16 footer.
I have used it a few times on the Vapor and I can say that it works perfectly. We had only smaller conditions i.e. under 20 knots and bumps less than hip high but the GTS has worked really good. I was on the tail for some of the longest glide/connections ever for these type of conditions and the board was really stable and easy to control and easy to turn into more bumps.
I know it might feel counter-intuitive because of teh large base but all I can say is that the proof is the pudding in my specific case.
Post by: Area 10 on August 08, 2018, 09:27:59 PM
mr_proper: where to stand on the RS depends on the conditions. In flat water I stand either side of the handle (which feels too far forward but is fastest, at least for me). In mild bumps I move my feet back a little, eg. so my toes are level with the back of the handle. In bigger stuff it gets complicated... in general I find that speed on the RS is more about what the tail is doing rather than the nose: IMO its usually better to plough the nose than drag the tail (assuming one or the other has to happen).
Post by: Luc Benac on August 08, 2018, 10:22:25 PM
Luc - Large base fins can give more drive in light conditions so are not necessarily a bad choice, IMO. In some conditions they can also help stabilise an unruly tail too
That is what I am rediscovering. SUP seems often non-intuitive. A small fin narrowish base will feel greet on side confused chop but a wider base will get where you need to downwind on the conditions we described. Get the balance wrong and a stalled board will get pushed around worst than anything.
Post by: GlideMarko on August 09, 2018, 12:41:06 AM
https://vimeo.com/283882293
Post by: ukgm on August 09, 2018, 12:58:31 AM
New model from Nelo: GT
https://vimeo.com/283882293
Interesting. This was the design they told me as coming out last spring. Not a lot of mention on any stability shaping features so possibly a handful by the looks of things. You can also see in the video how their flatwater board handles chop and wake from other boards.
Post by: yugi on August 09, 2018, 01:09:45 AM
... You can also see in the video how their flatwater board handles chop and wake from other boards.
Saw that.
They guy on the green Lightcorp race really struggles and then gets bogged down once the wake from the Orange GT hits him. Same for the guy on the Pink Lightcorp race.
Post by: ukgm on August 09, 2018, 01:42:30 AM
... You can also see in the video how their flatwater board handles chop and wake from other boards.
Saw that.
They guy on the green Lightcorp race really struggles and then gets bogged down once the wake from the Orange GT hits him. Same for the guy on the Pink Lightcorp race.
.........and that's their elite team paddling there. The board looks good though. The low weight won't be a bad thing but I'm curious to see if its a truly competitive shape or not.
Post by: Lake Paddler on August 09, 2018, 01:59:14 AM
Somehow I see no mention of "all-water" on their website.
https://www.light-sup.com/light--nelo-the-gt.html
Post by: yugi on August 09, 2018, 04:42:14 AM
Post by: ukgm on August 09, 2018, 04:57:51 AM
Good thing to learn that the GT's nose is fastly moving.
...... and that 'triple' is so important, they keep throwing an extra p in there.
Post by: ukgm on August 09, 2018, 04:58:29 AM
If I'm not mistaken, they put their fastest team riders Normen Weber and Peter Weidert on two GT boards...just to convey the idea that GT is indeed faster than their previous dugout model?
Somehow I see no mention of "all-water" on their website.
https://www.light-sup.com/light--nelo-the-gt.html
Yes, I thought the lack of mention of its intended use was an oversight or merely odd.
Post by: Luc Benac on August 09, 2018, 07:15:11 AM
... You can also see in the video how their flatwater board handles chop and wake from other boards.
Saw that.
They guy on the green Lightcorp race really struggles and then gets bogged down once the wake from the Orange GT hits him. Same for the guy on the Pink Lightcorp race.
I think that we all focused on the same thing :-)
The near miss and bracing when hit by the wake of the first board and the good leg workout during most of the paddling.
Definitely an acquired taste not for everybody.
Post by: burchas on August 09, 2018, 10:49:32 AM
Definitely an acquired taste not for everybody.
And that's under very tamed conditions. Imagine a real race start with 300 more paddlers
around and the taste you'll have to acquire is the taste of the water around you because
that's where you'll spend most of your time until the stampede is over ;D
Post by: mr_proper on August 09, 2018, 02:27:07 PM
mr_proper: where to stand on the RS depends on the conditions. In flat water I stand either side of the handle (which feels too far forward but is fastest, at least for me). In mild bumps I move my feet back a little, eg. so my toes are level with the back of the handle. In bigger stuff it gets complicated... in general I find that speed on the RS is more about what the tail is doing rather than the nose: IMO its usually better to plough the nose than drag the tail (assuming one or the other has to happen).
Thanks a lot.
I think it also depends a bit on the weight and size of the paddler.
It seems that the best position for me is when the front third of my foot is at the level of the rear drainage hole. Maybe an inch further, if it is really flat.
But I will watch and report it.
Post by: JEG on August 09, 2018, 03:19:14 PM
Post by: Eagle on August 09, 2018, 03:49:35 PM
Apparently the flat deck GT is an allwater flatwater racing board. But that vid actually shows how unstable the Signature 2.0 is just from a single board ahead. Will be interesting to see how those boards do against some top elite racers. It looks like the lack of underbody hard edges makes it a bit tough to keep power down in small wakes. Rougher conditions may be even more problematic....Somehow I see no mention of "all-water" on their website.Yes, I thought the lack of mention of its intended use was an oversight or merely odd.
https://www.light-sup.com/light--nelo-the-gt.html
Post by: mr_proper on August 09, 2018, 09:55:47 PM
https://www.facebook.com/100004232409595/posts/1098957243588679/
Post by: mr_proper on August 09, 2018, 10:45:21 PM
... You can also see in the video how their flatwater board handles chop and wake from other boards.
Saw that.
They guy on the green Lightcorp race really struggles and then gets bogged down once the wake from the Orange GT hits him. Same for the guy on the Pink Lightcorp race.
That's my problem with my Lightcorp V1. Very fast and nice in flat conditions, but when something comes from the side, it is a pain. But I know paddlers, they have no problem with that.
I'm too tall and too heavy (ok, actually I'm not good enough but too big and too heavy sounds better :D ) to handle this in the race. At the start I lose a lot of meters.
The new GT with 23.5 width is too narrow for me. Maximum rider weight according to specification at 90 kg.
Post by: Area 10 on August 10, 2018, 01:15:49 AM
A word from the makerSounds like the shaper is on the same voyage of discovery that the leading brands have been on - and that racers go through when they start out. Everyone is looking for free speed so they turn to obvious possibilities such as rounded hulls, less weight, minimising wetted surface, and then add a few fancy tweaks for show, such as complex chines etc. And then they do their testing in pure flat water - on the grounds that that is the most reliable test.
https://www.facebook.com/100004232409595/posts/1098957243588679/
But what they end up with is something that is really difficult to use, and quite often looks a bit of a dogs dinner. As soon as the paddler uses it in conditions it wasnt tested in - surprise surprise - it is as fast as a dog dinner too.
IMO there really isnt any simple way to a design like the All Star, Sprint, RS, Maliko etc. Except to copy them. They have been honed by experience more than theory. Hard yards all over the world. And by multiple riders - this is important I think because otherwise you end up with quite singular handling characteristics that might suit your particular pro but not the average Joe (could this perhaps be said of Traviss influence on some of the NSP designs?).
So, if Lightcorp stay the course (and my prediction is that after a couple of seasons of trying, and relatively few sales, they will go back to their core business, like so many others), theyll probably end up with a decent compromise design in 2-3 years time that can rival the main brands. But right at this moment Im not quite sure what it is about that video - or the rather poorly-written design notes- that was supposed to convince me to buy one of these boards.
I really hope that they get it right soon though. With the imminent financial meltdown that Brexit is going to cause, we here in the UK could do with a local(ish) brand that makes boards that are gonna last forever because soon none of us are going to be able to afford new boards! But theyd better do it quick, before the Euro softens too when we default on the 100bn euro payment that the EU thinks it is going to get from us when we leave the EU, and voters in Italy, France and Germany start to resent financially supporting the poorer EU countries... we live in interesting times.
Post by: Lake Paddler on August 10, 2018, 01:54:15 AM
The new GT with 23.5 width is too narrow for me. Maximum rider weight according to specification at 90 kg....and recommended minimum rider weight: 78 kg. It's an extremely narrow range.
Post by: ukgm on August 10, 2018, 02:38:42 AM
The new GT with 23.5 width is too narrow for me. Maximum rider weight according to specification at 90 kg....and recommended minimum rider weight: 78 kg. It's an extremely narrow range.
Its what happens when you design something scientifically with a targeted waterline. I had a nice email from them this morning with some more thoughts and details. I'm not sure i agree with their design but I oike their process and at least it offers a different angle to the masses.
Post by: Area 10 on August 10, 2018, 03:20:14 AM
78kg minimum? Most of the top racers these days would be a bit lighter than this, surely? Is this aimed at the competitive but not a podium regular racer? I seem to remember someone (Jim Terrell? Danny Ching?) saying a few years ago that the optimal weight for a male SUP racer is around 70-75kg...?? So maybe they think that if you are over 78kgs you arent going to be wanting to paddle anything narrower than 23.5 wide, and you are most likely a decent weekend warrior but not likely to threaten the best?The new GT with 23.5 width is too narrow for me. Maximum rider weight according to specification at 90 kg....and recommended minimum rider weight: 78 kg. It's an extremely narrow range.
Its what happens when you design something scientifically with a targeted waterline. I had a nice email from them this morning with some more thoughts and details. I'm not sure i agree with their design but I oike their process and at least it offers a different angle to the masses.
Post by: ukgm on August 10, 2018, 03:48:44 AM
78kg minimum? Most of the top racers these days would be a bit lighter than this, surely? Is this aimed at the competitive but not a podium regular racer? I seem to remember someone (Jim Terrell? Danny Ching?) saying a few years ago that the optimal weight for a male SUP racer is around 70-75kg...?? So maybe they think that if you are over 78kgs you arent going to be wanting to paddle anything narrower than 23.5 wide, and you are most likely a decent weekend warrior but not likely to threaten the best?The new GT with 23.5 width is too narrow for me. Maximum rider weight according to specification at 90 kg....and recommended minimum rider weight: 78 kg. It's an extremely narrow range.
Its what happens when you design something scientifically with a targeted waterline. I had a nice email from them this morning with some more thoughts and details. I'm not sure i agree with their design but I oike their process and at least it offers a different angle to the masses.
It depends on whether their volume is catering for elites or to the wider market that would buy the board. It's the opposite approach to Naish who seem to design the volume of their race boards based on the weight of an elite paddler or their team riders (but is too low for the market in my view).
Post by: Area 10 on August 10, 2018, 08:51:40 AM
But if you are irrevocably focussed on volume (because of this), then have you tried a 2018 14x22.5 Ace? It is a design that is tolerant of changes in waterline.
Post by: ukgm on September 01, 2018, 12:01:20 AM
ukgm - weve been here before. Its stupid you trying to win (at an elite level) on a 14ft board. You are too big. You should be on an UL. If people like you wont carry the torch for UL then that really is an example of turkeys voting for Christmas.
But if you are irrevocably focussed on volume (because of this), then have you tried a 2018 14x22.5 Ace? It is a design that is tolerant of changes in waterline.
Well, if you go down the road of suitability, I shouldn't be paddling at all - I should either be playing basketball or sitting in a rowing 8. If you get too hung up about sporting disposition for a sport like SUP (that is still in the very early stages of its development), few of us should be racing at all. It's about playing positively with the hand you have in the environment you like than continually berating yourself about what you don't. My bottom line is that I am not an elite athlete - I am an age grouper/amateur who has a trophy cabinet filled with the fruits of that labour but those limitations.
Post by: Area 10 on September 01, 2018, 01:23:57 AM
The more important point is about paddling *pleasure*. All those hours you spend training for races that are a slog on a 14 could be much nicer if you were on an UL. It would be better for your body, and more enjoyable. But instead of showing leadership in your chosen role within the sport, you are apparently choosing to reinforce a system that conspires against your own, and reduces innovation. Its a missed opportunity IMO.ukgm - weve been here before. Its stupid you trying to win (at an elite level) on a 14ft board. You are too big. You should be on an UL. If people like you wont carry the torch for UL then that really is an example of turkeys voting for Christmas.
But if you are irrevocably focussed on volume (because of this), then have you tried a 2018 14x22.5 Ace? It is a design that is tolerant of changes in waterline.
Well, if you go down the road of suitability, I shouldn't be paddling at all - I should either be playing basketball or sitting in a rowing 8. If you get too hung up about sporting disposition for a sport like SUP (that is still in the very early stages of its development), few of us should be racing at all. It's about playing positively with the hand you have in the environment you like than continually berating yourself about what you don't. My bottom line is that I am not an elite athlete - I am an age grouper/amateur who has a trophy cabinet filled with the fruits of that labour but those limitations.
But maybe you just havent paddled enough on UL boards yet. Hopefully ONE, SUNOVA, Starboard etc will have distributors in Europe who will be willing to bring at least one or two of their UL models in, and this will kick-start a change, despite the narrow-mindedness of the increasingly irrelevant race scene. Once youve tried an UL it is hard to go back to a wider, slower, less stable design, and you start asking yourself why people would insist on the equivalent of a rule that everyone in the London marathon must run in leather army boots.
Post by: ukgm on September 01, 2018, 02:26:19 AM
1) The more important point is about paddling *pleasure*. All those hours you spend training for races that are a slog on a 14 could be much nicer if you were on an UL. It would be better for your body, and more enjoyable. But maybe you just havent paddled enough on UL boards yet. Hopefully ONE, SUNOVA, Starboard etc will have distributors in Europe who will be willing to bring at least one or two of their UL models in, and this will kick-start a change, despite the narrow-mindedness of the increasingly irrelevant race scene. Once youve tried an UL it is hard to go back to a wider, slower, less stable design, and you start asking yourself why people would insist on the equivalent of a rule that everyone in the London marathon must run in leather army boots.ukgm - weve been here before. Its stupid you trying to win (at an elite level) on a 14ft board. You are too big. You should be on an UL. If people like you wont carry the torch for UL then that really is an example of turkeys voting for Christmas.
But if you are irrevocably focussed on volume (because of this), then have you tried a 2018 14x22.5 Ace? It is a design that is tolerant of changes in waterline.
Well, if you go down the road of suitability, I shouldn't be paddling at all - I should either be playing basketball or sitting in a rowing 8. If you get too hung up about sporting disposition for a sport like SUP (that is still in the very early stages of its development), few of us should be racing at all. It's about playing positively with the hand you have in the environment you like than continually berating yourself about what you don't. My bottom line is that I am not an elite athlete - I am an age grouper/amateur who has a trophy cabinet filled with the fruits of that labour but those limitations.
2) But instead of showing leadership in your chosen role within the sport, you are apparently choosing to reinforce a system that conspires against your own, and reduces innovation. Its a missed opportunity IMO.
1) I suspect the reason I have been enjoying paddling my surfski more than my SUP is possibly relating to the sensations you allude to. However, the attraction of moving something hard has pleasures of its own. The best example I can think of is bench pressing 40kg 40 times or being able to shunt 100kg 4 times. Or the difference between racing a 12'6 inflatable vs a 14ft hard board (as i did a couple of years back for naish). It's not better or worse, just different. That said. I don't disagree with what you're describing on this and agree with you.
2) Due to work and family commitments I can only probably race across 2-3 sports for 15 weekends per year. Of those, probably 3-4 are SUP related. Of those, 2 are big events where I (rarely) get the chance to race the very best of your peers. I'm not going to blow the few opportunities I have to race something that isn't even allowable within our current legislation or to wave a banner in an event whereby I might not be able to race again for another couple of months. However, if you're suggesting I'm closed minded to paddling one in totality, not at all. I'm able to access several boards from a variety of brands shortly and I'll try anything I can access and I've enquired about several boards (including some production UL's). To get back on thread, I have recently been given the chance to test both Nelo's.
Post by: Area 10 on September 01, 2018, 03:00:52 AM
Post by: mr_proper on September 01, 2018, 03:26:17 AM
To get back on thread, I have recently been given the chance to test both Nelo's.
Unfortunately you are too far away, otherwise you would like to test my Nelo.
And unfortunately, I have not used the Nelo since I got the RS because the RS is so much more fun. But my wife like the Nelo. Nevertheless, I will sell it to buy another RS.
Post by: Lake Paddler on September 01, 2018, 03:49:57 AM
To get back on thread, I have recently been given the chance to test both Nelo's.Nice. Then you would be able to compare their Signature 2.0 to the SB Sprint 14'x21.5". I would be particularly interested in the performance of the GT.
Post by: ukgm on September 01, 2018, 04:02:31 AM
Have you tried the Lightcorp race paddle?
Nope.
Post by: ukgm on September 28, 2018, 03:31:50 PM
Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXqfc-A8fos
Post by: photofr on September 30, 2018, 03:13:12 AM
- Durability (the board still looks brand spanking new, after nearly 1500 km on the water)
- Super light (I was able to paddle in one of the most magical places in France, with an approach that was nearly 2km long)
So while carrying a board isn't the point of buying a board, it is sometimes an absolute must. The lightweight Nelo excelled in that sense, and paddling has - so far - being nothing short of a pleasure.
Here's "Le pont du Gars" near the town of Avignon in France
(during a super calm day)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-24MVFjX/0/caa2d0a9/X2/i-24MVFjX-X2.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-SEP-14-Taking-a-Closer-Look/n-VtZsbF/i-24MVFjX/A)
Post by: yugi on September 30, 2018, 08:41:12 AM
In the word of
Strong / Light / Cheap pick any 2
Nelo is nailing it.
Dunno if I'd like the constant roll yet. Keen to try.
Post by: mr_proper on September 30, 2018, 09:17:09 AM
Still a nice and fast board, but not for me.
Have ordered now to my SIC RS 14x26 still a RS 14x23.
Post by: ukgm on September 30, 2018, 04:16:13 PM
Light is right.
In the word of
Strong / Light / Cheap pick any 2
Nelo is nailing it.
Dunno if I'd like the constant roll yet. Keen to try.
Well the proof will be in the pudding but the GT takes a more conventional design approach but with that weight benefit so Id be inclined to seriously consider that one. Im just waiting for the demo boards to come into the uk shortly.
Post by: Area 10 on September 30, 2018, 05:59:51 PM
I really hope the GT turns out to be something we can get fully behind. A light and durable construction (carbon, hollow, 21 lbs) board for about the same price as a 2019 Starboard All Star is an intriguing proposition. (And made in Europe, too.)
Post by: ukgm on October 01, 2018, 12:19:49 AM
The GT looks a bit more like a real raceboard. Im not sure how well that design will draft though. Will be interesting to know.
I'll let you know !!
Post by: Lake Paddler on October 08, 2018, 04:00:53 AM
Post by: ukgm on October 08, 2018, 01:08:42 PM
Talked to Gerd at the PADDLEexpo. The Light teamriders did a head-to-head comparison of the GT and Signature 2.0 14x23 in 600m sprint and the speed difference was, according to Gerd, very marginal (nope I didn't question him about the soundness of the setup from a statistical point of view). Gerd himself was placed 3rd in a recent local 10km race with a prototype of the GT and found its performance time-wise comparable to his Signature 2.0 14x24.5 (he's 88kg and ca. 188cm). The GT is going to weigh the same as the Signature 2.0---9.5 kg for both. Gerd added that the GT is better at tracking but not as sensible as the Signature 2.0 that is better at buoy turns. It's arriving in Frankfurt in 10 days so I'm really looking forward to a demo.
Keep us posted. Im still waiting in the uk for my demo. As an aside, I was presenting at an ICF conference last weekend and I was talking afterwards to the other big kayak manufacture - Plastex (based in Poland). They are just launching their own hollow SUP board now too.
Post by: ukgm on December 12, 2018, 01:34:13 PM
The GT looks a bit more like a real raceboard. Im not sure how well that design will draft though. Will be interesting to know.
I'll let you know !!
Ive now got a GT on trial for a month. I paddled it for the first time today. It will take some getting used to as the low weight and construction really proceed different dynamics compared to solid core boards. First thoughts were though that I like it. Magazine review to come soon.
Post by: Luc Benac on December 12, 2018, 06:40:24 PM
Lighter is not always better for stability or seaworthiness. i.e. a lighter downwind board is not always better than a slightly heavier one.
For the lake and river that you are racing in, it might be totally irrelevant and lighter is simply better.
Post by: Area 10 on December 12, 2018, 11:05:54 PM
What I want to know about is strength, durability, and cost. What puts many people off hollow boards (at least for coastal paddlers) is the thought that you might spring a leak and end up losing your buoyancy. Of course, hollow boards are much easier to dry out and fix if you did. But how hard would it be to put a dime-sized hole in it (or fold it in surf), and what exactly would happen if you did?
Hollow boards are a bit noisy to paddle in coastal waters too, right?
Post by: yugi on December 13, 2018, 12:41:40 AM
It would be interesting to see how a lighter board manages in bigger chop.
Lighter is not always better for stability or seaworthiness. i.e. a lighter downwind board is not always better than a slightly heavier one.
For the lake and river that you are racing in, it might be totally irrelevant and lighter is simply better.
Light weight is critical whenever you're doing sports with lots of vertical altitude gain.
;)
Paddling gets me high as a kite. Does that count?
Bottom line is a light board is way easier to get on the roof and upper racks.
Post by: ukgm on December 13, 2018, 01:14:19 AM
1) It would be interesting to see how a lighter board manages in bigger chop.1) Agreed. I'm trying that for the first time tomorrow.
2) Lighter is not always better for stability or seaworthiness. i.e. a lighter downwind board is not always better than a slightly heavier one.
3) For the lake and river that you are racing in, it might be totally irrelevant and lighter is simply better.
2) Again, agreed. As I've said to other people, this board feels almost like a ski or a K1 in that the high stiffness and light weight makes anything you do have an immediate and VERY direct response. Much more direct than anything you're likely to have used before board-wise. This doesn't make it more tippy per se' but you do need to be much more subtle in any corrections you make.
3) Too soon to say yet. For events that have any form of accelerations e.g. technical or sprint events, the weight reduction is insanely worthwhile when you need to get going from zero. Its incredibly easy to spike its speed to 12kph+ but holding it there for long will be a challenge !!
By the way, I'm using the 23.5 width version and its interesting - particularly as my board for the last month had been a 23.5 Allstar.
Post by: ukgm on December 13, 2018, 01:21:09 AM
1) I agree with Luc. But presume this board is aimed mainly at inland waters paddlers...?1) Hmm, the literature makes it appear that this is an allwater board. I'll need some major sea miles logged on it before I'd be comfortable in anything other than estuary level chop. This board is skills-wise right at my current limits.
2) What I want to know about is strength, durability, and cost. What puts many people off hollow boards (at least for coastal paddlers) is the thought that you might spring a leak and end up losing your buoyancy.
3) Hollow boards are a bit noisy to paddle in coastal waters too, right?
2) Worries over hollow boards is really based on those probably unfamiliar to kayaks and skis' They've had this method of build for years, its really robust and I loved being able to lift it off the roof with one hand and not be using something that dings if I even so much as fart in the wrong direction. It's got Nelo building it and whilst I'll know more in a month, they are renowned for their build quality.
3) I take your point about noise. It doesn't make any when its moving on flatwater but the lack of a foam core means it doesn't have much in the way of damping qualities. In other words, it makes an echoing bang noise when going over chop.
As for cost, it's probably better you don't ask....... You know how raceboards are these days...
Post by: Area 10 on December 13, 2018, 01:23:21 PM
But of course, Nelo are probably just thinking of people paddling in rivers, lakes and canals etc in lightish winds. Nothing too treacherous.
As regards the cost, Id pay extra for a board that was super-durable, is superbly finished, and will last years. Whereas I cant counternance paying 3k+ GBP for a Starboard. I might as well just pay someone 3k to kick me in the balls since Id feel the same at the end.
Post by: ukgm on December 14, 2018, 02:27:31 AM
1) But of course, Nelo are probably just thinking of people paddling in rivers, lakes and canals etc in lightish winds. Nothing too treacherous.
2) As regards the cost, Id pay extra for a board that was super-durable, is superbly finished, and will last years. Whereas I cant counternance paying 3k+ GBP for a Starboard. I might as well just pay someone 3k to kick me in the balls since Id feel the same at the end.
1) That's not true. Nelo already make a (well received) range of ocean surfski's so I'd guess they know exactly what they are doing with construction. I don't know anyone who has sunk their craft in the manner you describe so frankly I wouldn't worry as long as you go paddling properly equipped and supported.
2) I think the depreciation isn't going to be pretty regardless of how this is made but I'd buy one of these as one of those infamous "this is the last board I'll buy" kind of moments. The fact you can carry it under your arm and lift it around as you would a small bag of groceries make the whole user off-water experience fantastic. This will last years of looking as good as the day you bought it. The price of this does make me wince though - mainly as I can buy even the most well respected brand of surf ski with the same method of construction for less.
As for its on-water offshore behaviour, well, ask me in about 5 hours time....
Post by: burchas on December 14, 2018, 02:38:32 PM
both full of water due to worn-out o-rings, and made it back with no issues other than taking the
boards out of the water as they were too heavy to carry by one man.
Apparently SIC add certain amount of foam inside just for that purpose, maybe Nelo does the same
for their ocean grade crafts?
Post by: photofr on December 15, 2018, 01:22:56 AM
I can vouch 100% on that having destroyed one of my Nelo craft on a little island offshore: I am still here ;)
Durability:
Nothing will last for ever... but my board now has over 27000km on the roof of my van with no cover/no protection... and about 1100km on the water... AND still looks brand new each time I clean it. Thats just a whole more that I can say for a multitude of other boards on the market.
Ocean use?
Ill vouch for my board there too... it surfs like a dream (even though Id call it a little technical with side shop - perhaps due to my feather-weight). Still absolutely fantastic with each acceleration. Its rear rocker makes it a truely fun board in lighter DW conditions... Id say they nailed that for sure.
Valve:
Check out the new one-way valve: how clever!
(Now they can lower the deck even more... perhaps in the near future)
Post by: Area 10 on December 15, 2018, 02:58:06 AM
Post by: photofr on December 15, 2018, 04:46:38 AM
I am not racing, but I imagine that the GT or the signature 2.0 in 14x24.5 should make advanced and expert paddlers pretty happy.
Post by: mr_proper on December 15, 2018, 11:22:44 AM
Just for info, I got the 2.0 14x23. They make the 14x24.5 which should be tons more stable, and they make the GT that is even more stable yet.
I am not racing, but I imagine that the GT or the signature 2.0 in 14x24.5 should make advanced and expert paddlers pretty happy.
I had a Lightcorp 14x24.5, but only worked really well in flat conditions. Now I have the SIC RS 14x23 and that seems to me more stable. Although is also tippy, but does not roll.
My paddle buddy with 20 kg and 20 cm less copes with the 14x24.5 Light Corp without problems. Even in downwind conditions no problem.
Post by: Area 10 on December 15, 2018, 12:29:37 PM
Sorry for the hijack, but how different is your 14x23 RS in terms of stability and speed than your 14x26 RS? Ive got a 14x26 RS and it is so stable in flat water that Im considering getting the 14x23 too. I probably should have got the 14x24.5 originally, but I didnt realise quite how stable this board was going to be. Now Im not sure that if I get the 24.5 there will be enough of a difference to justify the expense, so am thinking about the 23 instead. However, I once owned a 14x23 JL Sidewinder and found that even at my average weight, it didnt really work well, and was much faster with a light person on board. So if you dont mind me asking, how heavy are you, Mr Proper, and is the 23 useable in the ocean as well as flat water? Recently I was paddling with one of the worlds best elite pros, and he was on a 14x23 RS and fell off it in mild ocean chop (he was turning to talk to a friend, mind you), so I do wonder.Just for info, I got the 2.0 14x23. They make the 14x24.5 which should be tons more stable, and they make the GT that is even more stable yet.
I am not racing, but I imagine that the GT or the signature 2.0 in 14x24.5 should make advanced and expert paddlers pretty happy.
I had a Lightcorp 14x24.5, but only worked really well in flat conditions. Now I have the SIC RS 14x23 and that seems to me more stable. Although is also tippy, but does not roll.
My paddle buddy with 20 kg and 20 cm less copes with the 14x24.5 Light Corp without problems. Even in downwind conditions no problem.
Post by: mr_proper on December 15, 2018, 02:25:35 PM
Sorry for the hijack, but how different is your 14x23 RS in terms of stability and speed than your 14x26 RS? Ive got a 14x26 RS and it is so stable in flat water that Im considering getting the 14x23 too. I probably should have got the 14x24.5 originally, but I didnt realise quite how stable this board was going to be. Now Im not sure that if I get the 24.5 there will be enough of a difference to justify the expense, so am thinking about the 23 instead. However, I once owned a 14x23 JL Sidewinder and found that even at my average weight, it didnt really work well, and was much faster with a light person on board. So if you dont mind me asking, how heavy are you, Mr Proper, and is the 23 useable in the ocean as well as flat water? Recently I was paddling with one of the worlds best elite pros, and he was on a 14x23 RS and fell off it in mild ocean chop (he was turning to talk to a friend, mind you), so I do wonder.Just for info, I got the 2.0 14x23. They make the 14x24.5 which should be tons more stable, and they make the GT that is even more stable yet.
I am not racing, but I imagine that the GT or the signature 2.0 in 14x24.5 should make advanced and expert paddlers pretty happy.
I had a Lightcorp 14x24.5, but only worked really well in flat conditions. Now I have the SIC RS 14x23 and that seems to me more stable. Although is also tippy, but does not roll.
My paddle buddy with 20 kg and 20 cm less copes with the 14x24.5 Light Corp without problems. Even in downwind conditions no problem.
I had the same thoughts too. I think the difference between 26 and 24.5 is too small and that's why I decided for the 23. But also because my wife likes it a lot. For me, it should only be in the very flat, because I'm actually too big and too heavy for the 23. SIC gives a max riders weight of 88.5 kg and I have 93kg at 195 cm.
I usually paddle only on lakes and rivers. On holiday for the sea I have the 26.
Unfortunately, I can not say anything about the speed, since I've paddled the 23 only in wind and waves so far. As long as the waves do not come directly from the side, that works very well. At least I have not gone swimming yet. By the sea, the board will probably be too narrow for me.
I'll report as soon as I can test the board in calmer conditions and say something about speed. At the moment I have the feeling that the cold water costs speed. But maybe I'm just unfit.
Post by: ukgm on December 16, 2018, 12:57:36 AM
(Now they can lower the deck even more... perhaps in the near future)
On the GT, they certainly have licence for that. Even at my 90kg, I'm still a good inch or so off the waterline.
Post by: ukgm on December 16, 2018, 12:58:55 AM
Sorry for the hijack, but how different is your 14x23 RS in terms of stability and speed than your 14x26 RS? Ive got a 14x26 RS and it is so stable in flat water that Im considering getting the 14x23 too. I probably should have got the 14x24.5 originally, but I didnt realise quite how stable this board was going to be. Now Im not sure that if I get the 24.5 there will be enough of a difference to justify the expense, so am thinking about the 23 instead. However, I once owned a 14x23 JL Sidewinder and found that even at my average weight, it didnt really work well, and was much faster with a light person on board. So if you dont mind me asking, how heavy are you, Mr Proper, and is the 23 useable in the ocean as well as flat water? Recently I was paddling with one of the worlds best elite pros, and he was on a 14x23 RS and fell off it in mild ocean chop (he was turning to talk to a friend, mind you), so I do wonder.Just for info, I got the 2.0 14x23. They make the 14x24.5 which should be tons more stable, and they make the GT that is even more stable yet.
I am not racing, but I imagine that the GT or the signature 2.0 in 14x24.5 should make advanced and expert paddlers pretty happy.
I had a Lightcorp 14x24.5, but only worked really well in flat conditions. Now I have the SIC RS 14x23 and that seems to me more stable. Although is also tippy, but does not roll.
My paddle buddy with 20 kg and 20 cm less copes with the 14x24.5 Light Corp without problems. Even in downwind conditions no problem.
I had the same thoughts too. I think the difference between 26 and 24.5 is too small and that's why I decided for the 23. But also because my wife likes it a lot. For me, it should only be in the very flat, because I'm actually too big and too heavy for the 23. SIC gives a max riders weight of 88.5 kg and I have 93kg at 195 cm.
I usually paddle only on lakes and rivers. On holiday for the sea I have the 26.
Unfortunately, I can not say anything about the speed, since I've paddled the 23 only in wind and waves so far. As long as the waves do not come directly from the side, that works very well. At least I have not gone swimming yet. By the sea, the board will probably be too narrow for me.
I'll report as soon as I can test the board in calmer conditions and say something about speed. At the moment I have the feeling that the cold water costs speed. But maybe I'm just unfit.
The design is so crucial. I found the drop from the 2017 24.5 Allstar to the 2018 23.5 a much bigger jump than expected. The former board was rock solid, the 23.5 I have found useable but with a surprising amount of challenge..... and that was just due to shaping tweaks and a n inch loss.
Post by: ukgm on December 16, 2018, 01:00:48 AM
Just for info, I got the 2.0 14x23. They make the 14x24.5 which should be tons more stable, and they make the GT that is even more stable yet.
I am not racing, but I imagine that the GT or the signature 2.0 in 14x24.5 should make advanced and expert paddlers pretty happy.
I was told by another paddler that they found the 24.5 Signature a lot more stable than the 23.5 GT. I haven't tried the 2.0 yet. I may well do when I hand the GT back.
Post by: ukgm on December 16, 2018, 02:11:35 AM
Are they going to make these in widths that the average (weight, ability) paddler could cope with, or are these boards just going be specialised equipment for the dedicated racer market?
I'll ask but if you think about it, I thinks its unlikely. The designs (in terms of design, feel and price) are very uncompromising. The cost associated with new moulds isn't cheap and I think they would have done it already if they were planning to. The Signature launched with two widths already but the GT only one.
I'll say this, based on the two paddles I'd had so far, if I were looking for a new board right now, this is what I would buy. I'm tired of heavy boards that look like crap after 6 months.
Post by: Area 10 on December 16, 2018, 06:28:39 AM
Ok, so if a board you demo doesnt make you buy it, whether you are looking for a new board or not, then it isnt that great an improvement over what you already have. :)
When you tell us that youve just spent 3700 GBP of your own money on one, thats when Ill really take an interest.
It would be lovely to think that I could buy this board and finally get under an hour for the course Ive been paddling (and trying to do just that) for 10 years. But experience has told me that that is just a pipe dream. Mostly, with boards, what you gain in one direction you lose in some other, and it all seems to even itself out more or less. So gains are small that way. The thing that makes a big difference however is training. So maybe if I bought this board and found it so damn tippy that I lost some weight and used a balance trainer every night, then I might then go faster and achieve my goal. However, if that series of events occur, is it accurate to say that it was the board that made me faster? In some ways of looking at it, the answer is yes. And in others it is no. Its a tricky philosophical conundrum:)
Post by: burchas on December 16, 2018, 11:26:25 AM
...is it accurate to say that it was the board that made me faster? In some ways of looking at it, the answer is yes. And in others it is no. Its a tricky philosophical conundrum:)
In your case I think it's very straight forward though, after years of paddling and countless boards, if no one board made you get there it is safe to assume no board will ;)
But I agree with your assessment that if demoing that board didn't make ukgm buy it I guess there was no "shaking your head in disbelief" moment that we rarely get from a new board.
I suspect the real thing this board has going for it is the construction quality to weight ratio. It's nothing to sneeze about, but maybe not to a point it will make one part with a hard earned 3700 GBP.
Post by: ukgm on December 16, 2018, 11:51:36 AM
if I were looking for a new board right now, this is what I would buy.
Ok, so if a board you demo doesnt make you buy it, whether you are looking for a new board or not, then it isnt that great an improvement over what you already have. :)
When you tell us that youve just spent 3700 GBP of your own money on one, thats when Ill really take an interest.
It would be lovely to think that I could buy this board and finally get under an hour for the course Ive been paddling (and trying to do just that) for 10 years. But experience has told me that that is just a pipe dream. Mostly, with boards, what you gain in one direction you lose in some other, and it all seems to even itself out more or less. So gains are small that way. The thing that makes a big difference however is training. So maybe if I bought this board and found it so damn tippy that I lost some weight and used a balance trainer every night, then I might then go faster and achieve my goal. However, if that series of events occur, is it accurate to say that it was the board that made me faster? In some ways of looking at it, the answer is yes. And in others it is no. Its a tricky philosophical conundrum:)
Well, my answer didnt make my intent clear. Bear in mind this board loan was always with the reason of writing a review, not with the consideration of possibly buying it. Put simply, it wouldnt be worth me buying any new board this year as Im only planning on racing SUP once (at our national sprint champs). However, wanna take a guess at what board Im probably borrowing for those ? ;-)
Post by: Area 10 on December 16, 2018, 05:35:43 PM
Post by: Luc Benac on December 16, 2018, 07:04:17 PM
The board that Arthur Carvalho Mas Santacreu used to win the ISA sprints so convincingly against a field of bigger names?
What brand is that? Interesting shape. And the South African lady on a Naish Maliko (I am sure not a production one because of the weight).
ISA is still with the silly 12.6 rule I guess.
Post by: photofr on December 17, 2018, 01:17:37 AM
I was told by another paddler that they found the 24.5 Signature a lot more stable than the 23.5 GT. I haven't tried the 2.0 yet. I may well do when I hand the GT back.
Very interested to hear more about the GT 23.5 being more or less stable than the Signature 24.75. Perhaps well see different feedback based on Ocean paddling and flat water paddling.
Post by: photofr on December 17, 2018, 01:55:26 AM
Theres a huge difference between a stroll whos never been here before, with no honor to defend - AND someone like UKGM and the likes who have 1000s of posts to their name and MUST at all cost provide accurate feedback and reviews.
Seems to me that UKGM really likes the board that he is demoeing. I cant wait to see what he really has to say about this new GT.
I, for one, have given you guys the most straight forward feedback on the Signature 1.0 and 2.0 (both in the 14x23 version). You were given pros and cons without me holding back.
To recap:
The 2.0 is more suited for heavier paddlers (not so much for the 45 to 65 kilo market).
The 2.0 has many new improvements compared to the 1.0. The standing is flattened, though in my eyes "not enough". The front volume is fantastic for heavier paddlers and for DW, but not so much for ultra light paddlers as it catches wind.
Yes, there are quite a few drawbacks and potential fixes Id like to see on the 2.0, but to be super fair, you guys seemingly only want to hear the bad news of any products.
Either way, the 3 things that still come up on top, and way on TOP are:
- DURABILITY... show me a board that will outlast Nelos construction.
- LIGHTWEIGHT... I never get used to it, on land just like on the water.
- AMAZING ACCELERATIONS... light boards boards and skis will get tossed around a little more than their heavier contre parts. However, the benefits you get out of a super fast acceleration are endless. At the start, you are gone. When wanting to sprint in order to shake off a paddler, it will just be so much easier because the board is just so light. After each turn, you will find yourself taking faster than before. Last, but not least, this is also an Ocean board, where each ripple asks you to accelerate, where each wave demands an increase of speed.
So you have analyzed all the pros and cons from this post and my previous ones... it is now up to you to see you find enough benefits in this new construction. Either, I vouch and am accountable.
Should you find anything that is remotely UNTRUE in my description of this new construction, I invite you to come talk calmy to me in person, or to contact me via email or phone. All my contact is visible on the home page of photofr.com
Cheers everyone.
And @UKGM - eager to get your feedback when ever you feel you are ready.
Post by: ukgm on December 17, 2018, 02:11:50 AM
The board that Arthur Carvalho Mas Santacreu used to win the ISA sprints so convincingly against a field of bigger names?
That looks like one of the Mistral prototypes. I know it isn't but interesting nonetheless. No, its always been about picking equipment to suit the conditions of the race you'll expect. However, in this case, you need to get out of the blocks and ahead of the wash and to do that, you need a board whereby you can access the highest top speed as quickly as possible and the highest rate of acceleration. Hypothetically speaking, if the GT is any good, its the equivalent for me of dropping my body's race weight from 89 to ~85kg. That's a huge performance advantage. Once at cruising speed, with a high cadence stroke, you're not going to see much (if any advantage) but the gain would have been obtained in the first 10-12 seconds hopefully.
Post by: Area 10 on December 17, 2018, 04:22:38 AM
So forgive me if Im interested, but slightly sceptical. I doubt very much that I could use either of these boards in a typical UK race, and I couldnt afford one anyway. So, my enthusiasm is understandably muted. Why should it be otherwise? Give me a reason to be excited about this. Its just another super-expensive specialist board designed for less than 1% of the paddling community paddling in very specific conditions. Meh.
Post by: ukgm on December 17, 2018, 05:37:08 AM
1) Why are people being so skeptical about reviews? Theres a huge difference between a stroll whos never been here before, with no honor to defend - AND someone like UKGM and the likes who have 1000s of posts to their name and MUST at all cost provide accurate feedback and reviews.
2) Seems to me that UKGM really likes the board that he is demoeing. I cant wait to see what he really has to say about this new GT.
3) Either way, the 3 things that still come up on top, and way on TOP are:
- DURABILITY... show me a board that will outlast Nelos construction.
- LIGHTWEIGHT... I never get used to it, on land just like on the water.
- AMAZING ACCELERATIONS... light boards boards and skis will get tossed around a little more than their heavier contre parts. However, the benefits you get out of a super fast acceleration are endless. At the start, you are gone. When wanting to sprint in order to shake off a paddler, it will just be so much easier because the board is just so light. After each turn, you will find yourself taking faster than before. Last, but not least, this is also an Ocean board, where each ripple asks you to accelerate, where each wave demands an increase of speed.
4) And @UKGM - eager to get your feedback when ever you feel you are ready.
1) The problem (as Area10 raises) is that there are so many badly conceived, biased or irrelevant reviews out there. Even if I threw as much data at testing this board as I could, my thoughts are not going to be as relevant to him as my style/nature of paddling is not representative of his own. And he is right - we've been here before with several other wonderboards.
2) I've currently only logged 4 total hours on it. My first impressions are very good so far. It's not perfect but I really like it. However, I haven't logged enough time on chop yet and I haven't raced it. Both of these experiences are crucial for me (and should have been accommodated by mid January when I hand it back). I think the really big question is surrounding it's price. Even if I think this is the best board ever, would I be willing to pay this much for it ? That's a question I can't answer yet.
3) This is actually the greatest problem I'm currently having with this board. I'm finding it hard to separate the bits I like that are due to its shape vs those created by its construction and its weight. I also think that the 'immediate' or 'direct' response it has due to its light weight is not going to be easy for everyone to adapt to (or just to frankly like) no matter how well it performs. I've gotten used to this quite quickly but then I'm used to surf ski's whereby the feeling is much the same.
4) There will be a full and detailed review in one of the online magazines coming out probably around February. My list of notes so far is very long already.
Post by: ukgm on December 17, 2018, 05:42:10 AM
Give me a reason to be excited about this. Its just another super-expensive specialist board designed for less than 1% of the paddling community paddling in very specific conditions. Meh.
You may well be right. It's an 'expert' level board in my eyes (not elite as I think many paddlers could handle it with enough time). If they did something like a 26 width version, that would satisfy the mainstream market and have many advantages for that kind of paddler.
For reasons of transparency though, I want to point out to everyone that I personally requested to test this board (it wasn't pushed onto me), was sourced as a loan via a friend I have in the industry and have been given the scope to review the board in a balanced way with no promises made or gifts offered in kind with respect to its outcome. I'm currently not sponsored and I've maintained that ethos to be able to test equipment like this.
Post by: Area 10 on December 17, 2018, 01:10:06 PM
Actually, statements like that really p**s me off: I recently saw a very narrow version of a board design that is known to be a bit tippy, being sold with the assurance it is super stable in all conditions. Stable for who? Maybe Kai Lenny, but otherwise this is as close as a lie as it is possible to get - or else the seller has never tried a *really* stable board. Compare it with a baseline board and then we can judge.
Post by: ukgm on December 17, 2018, 01:54:15 PM
Well, if I was going to be persuaded by any review, it would be written by you (or one of a select group of others here on this forum Ive come to trust over the last X years). A common problem that reviewers have, apart from intended or unintented bias, is that relatively few people paddle lots of boards *in lots of conditions*. So they havent really built up enough of a mental database to be able to put their findings into context. The kinds of comparisons people find most useful are direct comparisons with other well-known model, e.g. this board is noticeably more/less stable in chop than a Starboard Sprint 14x23. Such comparisons certainly arent objective by any means, but they can be more helpful nevertheless than bland statements like is super-stable.
Actually, statements like that really p**s me off: I recently saw a very narrow version of a board design that is known to be a bit tippy, being sold with the assurance it is super stable in all conditions. Stable for who? Maybe Kai Lenny, but otherwise this is as close as a lie as it is possible to get - or else the seller has never tried a *really* stable board. Compare it with a baseline board and then we can judge.
You raise an interesting point. My current training board is a 14ft 2018 starboard allstar in a 23.5 width - the same as the Nelo. I was wondering whether it would be helpful to refer to that board or whether it would be more objective to ignore that entirely.
Post by: burchas on December 17, 2018, 03:03:44 PM
You raise an interesting point. My current training board is a 14ft 2018 starboard allstar in a 23.5 width - the same as the Nelo. I was wondering whether it would be helpful to refer to that board or whether it would be more objective to ignore that entirely.
Even-though it's still biased, it would be more helpful if other boards you know well are referenced.
At least for me it paints some sort of a mental picture if you compare it in depth to a board I know well.
If you compare it with 2 other boards that are distinctively different, that can be super helpful in
understanding what is your point of view. Might even teach you something about your self in the process.
Sure is a time commitment. So Thanks for taking the time!
Post by: Luc Benac on December 17, 2018, 03:18:09 PM
Even-though it's still biased, it would be more helpful if other boards you know well are referenced.
At least for me it paints some sort of a mental picture if you compare it in depth to a board I know well.
Yes that is the Sacred Graal of learning about a board without been able to try it.
I could totally relate to Area10 review of the Vapor and your review of the Maliko and could take the (wise) decision of buying these with only 5 minutes testing.
From there as soon as you review another board with that frame of reference, I am in known territory.
If I was into flat water and races, then I could compare what Bryce is saying about a board with the same confidence.
Post by: photofr on December 19, 2018, 02:48:34 AM
You've paddled the Signature 2.0 (14x23) - if I recall correctly, right?
So far, what's your first impression when comparing the stability of the 2.0 (14x23) vs. the GT (14x23.5)?
I may not be the average paddler, but I am no Elite paddler, and I am certainly not an expert SUP paddler. Meanwhile, I still paddle often, and in a variety of conditions - with the 2.0 (14x23). I just don't see how or even why you would call the Nelo boards EXPERT BOARDS.
Based on 4 categories:
Beginner
Intermediate
Advanced
Expert Paddler
***
I would be very leaning towards calling the Nelo 2.0 (14x23) an Advanced Paddler board, but where would you stand on this?
***
FYI:
I would place the category (ELITE) between Advanced and Expert.
Post by: ukgm on December 19, 2018, 03:20:16 AM
1) You've paddled the Signature 2.0 (14x23) - if I recall correctly, right?
So far, what's your first impression when comparing the stability of the 2.0 (14x23) vs. the GT (14x23.5)?
2) I just don't see how or even why you would call the Nelo boards EXPERT BOARDS. I would be very leaning towards calling the Nelo 2.0 (14x23) an Advanced Paddler board, but where would you stand on this?
***
Good questions. Here are my replies:
1) No I haven't paddled a 2.0 yet. I've been given the chance to though but I suspect the 23 is too much for me to sprint on at full power in a high quality race start. I'll likely try the 24.75 at my size. I'm 6ft 3 and 90kg so I'm inclined to be conservative.
2) Yep, this is always going to be a relative thing (as it is with surfski's). I only called the GT 23.5 alone an expert level board though. This is based on my experience so far that it requires constant attention but its manageable for me of paddles upto 90 minutes with only a couple of braces per session on flatwater and light chop so far. I would also add that my technical skills (turns and balance to be average-poor for a racer) but my raw level of fitness is quite high. My high centre of gravity doesn't help but in real terms many of the paddlers in this thread alone will be more technically competent than I am. I only train to the demands of an event I'm aiming at, not to be a better paddler generally.
Post by: photofr on January 04, 2019, 03:46:32 AM
The price, however, is always a huge factor. I feel that you get a whole lot more from the Nelo hollow sandwich construction than the standard Styrofoam sandwich construction found in even the top brands like Starboard. In fact... here's another way to look at it:
3599.00 euros for a Starboard top of the line construction AND 3600.00 euros for a Nelo top of the line hollow construction. They can't even compare in terms of construction, where the Nelo could be considered BULLET-PROOF in comparaison.
Having said this, we'll all agree that it's a high-priced-item.
Here's the thing... how would you feel if I said you could get a nearly brand new Nelo Signature 2 board, yes, the full carbon hollow board with custom colors for 2400 euros?
My board still looks like new every time I wipe it down with a basic cloth. It's still in an impeccable condition... for 2400 euros, it's YOURS.
Regrettably, I am selling my 2018 Nelo board for 2400 euros. I need to fix my van - so contact me if you are interested.
ludovic@photofr.com
Post by: ukgm on January 04, 2019, 05:57:45 AM
My Nelo board has been a real blessing, and there are so many reasons as to why I would highly recommend a racer (or serious paddler) to try one.
The price, however, is always a huge factor. I feel that you get a whole lot more from the Nelo hollow sandwich construction than the standard Styrofoam sandwich construction found in even the top brands like Starboard. In fact... here's another way to look at it:
3599.00 euros for a Starboard top of the line construction AND 3600.00 euros for a Nelo top of the line hollow construction. They can't even compare in terms of construction, where the Nelo could be considered BULLET-PROOF in comparaison.
Having said this, we'll all agree that it's a high-priced-item.
Here's the thing... how would you feel if I said you could get a nearly brand new Nelo Signature 2 board, yes, the full carbon hollow board with custom colors for 2400 euros?
My board still looks like new every time I wipe it down with a basic cloth. It's still in an impeccable condition... for 2400 euros, it's YOURS.
Regrettably, I am selling my 2018 Nelo board for 2400 euros. I need to fix my van - so contact me if you are interested.
ludovic@photofr.com
It's worth noting though that I could buy a surf ski (which is bigger and more complex) using the same construction method to the same quality for far less though than one of these is new. I completely agree the Light Signatures construction quality blows anything available by any other brand away though.
Post by: mr_proper on January 04, 2019, 11:20:40 AM
Post by: photofr on January 10, 2019, 02:24:02 AM
- Contacting them
- Racing obligations
- 6 or more weeks of waiting (think of it as two months)
Meanwhile:
I lowered the price of my board for a quicker sale: 2200 euros - so feel free to shoot me an email if you are interested.
ludovic@photofr.com
Post by: ukgm on January 10, 2019, 10:20:58 AM
Sure, but before doing that, you have to dedicate yourself to:That's not a big ask I'd say (and pretty much in line with most team deals in my experience). The problem I find is that many paddlers just see team deals as a discounted or a free board and you're then doing the job for them by riding it but you've got to give a brand some added value. I'd add social media management to that list too (at least I would say so if you want to last on such deals). Unless you're one of the international race winners alone that will get the exposure, race results aren't worth much to a brand. The advice I gave to a brand looking for a paddler recently is that I can go to a local race that will have typically around 40 paddlers and maybe a few spectators. On the other hand, I can put out a video on youtube and get 3000 views worth of traffic within a fortnight. It's obvious to see where the best chances of a sale then come from for them.
- Contacting them
- Racing obligations
- 6 or more weeks of waiting (think of it as two months)
Post by: ukgm on January 10, 2019, 10:25:56 AM
Dunno if I'd like the constant roll yet. Keen to try.
Just on this point Yugi, I'm hoping to be laying on my hands on a Signature 2.0 after I hand the GT back soon so I'll keep you posted. If the Signature is anything like the GT, it's not the boards design causing a constant roll, its the boards low mass and inertia that creates that lively constant motion feel (rather than actual instability). On the GT, my calves and legs got such a shock in my first paddle on it, I felt like that first ever paddle on a SUP board all over again. You have to learn to dial down your reactions a bit on it.
I'm now at 10 hours logged on the GT. I still really like it. If were to replace my current board, I'd buy one if I could afford it - I think the build quality, finish and the lack of hassle lugging it around makes it worth it alone and the manufacturing method I feel is game changing for those willing to embrace it.
Post by: Area 10 on January 10, 2019, 12:32:10 PM
Post by: ukgm on January 10, 2019, 01:28:02 PM
Shame they dont make one I could actually use. It sounds like Id paddle about one mile on it in flat water, and then collapse in a heap!
I got told that the wider Signature 2.0 24.75 is much more forgiving than the GT 23.5. I'll let you know on that one.
Post by: Area 10 on January 10, 2019, 05:06:30 PM
Im not interested in dugouts. Its not obvious to me looking at the Signature vs. the GT why the Signature would be noticeably more stable than the GT, excepting the dugout. So Ill be interested to hear your impressions.Shame they dont make one I could actually use. It sounds like Id paddle about one mile on it in flat water, and then collapse in a heap!
I got told that the wider Signature 2.0 24.75 is much more forgiving than the GT 23.5. I'll let you know on that one.
These boards are a little low volume for you, arent they? Maybe thats why you are finding it twitchy?
A GT at 24.75 would interest me. But it doesnt exist, sadly. However I think Ive probably decided to go the custom route anyway. In the same way that a custom suit fits in a way that no off-the-peg can, so it is with SUPs. Maybe Nelo will expand their range if these ones prove profitable. If they are properly ding resistant they could pay for themselves in saved repairs, if you are keen racer :) However the warnings about the need to baby the boards on their website makes me think that perhaps they arent that durable. Just light. Durable is more important to me than light (within reason). You cant race, train or explore if your board is being repaired.
Post by: ukgm on January 11, 2019, 03:43:32 AM
1) These boards are a little low volume for you, arent they? Maybe thats why you are finding it twitchy?1) The GT is 308 litres and the Signature 2.0 is now beefed up to 296 litres which are fine. I've completed quite a lot of training sessions and time trials on it now - even if it were sup-optimal volume, its still very fast for me. However, the heaviest water conditions I've been out in so far are conventional harbour chop and the odd boat wake.
2) A GT at 24.75 would interest me. But it doesnt exist, sadly. However I think Ive probably decided to go the custom route anyway. In the same way that a custom suit fits in a way that no off-the-peg can, so it is with SUPs. Maybe Nelo will expand their range if these ones prove profitable. If they are properly ding resistant they could pay for themselves in saved repairs, if you are keen racer :)
3) However the warnings about the need to baby the boards on their website makes me think that perhaps they arent that durable.
2) I was surprised they didn't launch a wider one first. My review is going to say the same as I share your opinion. If this had been around 24.5, I'd probably have bought one on the spot.
3) I know what you mean. All craft manufacturers say the same in one form or another. If I were to describe the build quality to anyone, it's the same as a top brand surf ski or K1. Very well finished and considerably more robust than any current SUP board on the market that I've seen. Comparing this to foam cores is night and day - it really is.
Post by: mr_proper on January 14, 2019, 11:16:56 AM
https://www.totalsup.com/news/bruno-hasulyo-lightcorp/?fbclid=IwAR118QtkKRe4LYwqg88xvJ4DqOD_awUGXiCHIieAHOoJK4exRGSpCobzeJ8
Post by: ukgm on January 14, 2019, 11:52:46 AM
Bruno Hasulyo Leaves Starboard and Joins New Team LIGHTCORP
https://www.totalsup.com/news/bruno-hasulyo-lightcorp/?fbclid=IwAR118QtkKRe4LYwqg88xvJ4DqOD_awUGXiCHIieAHOoJK4exRGSpCobzeJ8
That's huge news. I wonder if this is the point where more scrutiny is placed on hollowboard technology.
As for Braca paddles, I've just been loaned one of those to test. Good timing methinks.
Post by: JEG on January 14, 2019, 12:40:47 PM
Post by: Area 10 on January 14, 2019, 12:49:03 PM
interesting news, can't wait to see the Bruno & the boards in action!Yes, this should shake things up a bit.
Not so sure about his new paddle sponsor - it seems like maybe they have only one model, the Brača Stand Up Kahana, which looks underwhelming. Lets see...
Post by: ukgm on January 14, 2019, 01:01:41 PM
The European paddle/board equipment connection is quite a switch and very strong. Frankly I'm surprised they had the budget for him.interesting news, can't wait to see the Bruno & the boards in action!Yes, this should shake things up a bit.
Not so sure about his new paddle sponsor - it seems like maybe they have only one model, the Brača Stand Up Kahana, which looks underwhelming. Lets see...
Post by: Area 10 on January 14, 2019, 01:16:18 PM
Post by: Area 10 on January 14, 2019, 01:25:40 PM
I wish him the best of luck. It sounds like an interesting training regimen.
Post by: Luc Benac on January 14, 2019, 03:07:05 PM
It is interesting that they might accept to loose this advantage by serving two masters.
Post by: photofr on January 15, 2019, 12:32:32 AM
This is great news for Bruno. I also think that getting accomplished International paddlers onboard is really key (at least from a marketing stand point of view). I'd say Congrats in a hurry!!!
In the photo, you can see that we are dealing with agressive paddlers - and I again think that this is what the Nelo boards need.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-r4Vg4LQ/2/XL/i-r4Vg4LQ-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-May-21-Euro-Tour-BEACH/i-r4Vg4LQ/A)
Post by: ukgm on January 15, 2019, 01:24:41 AM
Bruno says Every year my two trainers can improve my performance by 10-15%. Ah, bless him. In a couple of years hell be so fast that hes lapping himself.
He seems like a nice guy but I called them out on their resistance-based fin training device once (The 'Push' fin) which they claimed would increase your endurance if you used it. I said that by increasing the resistance only changes the speed of the board and that you'll only increase the physiological power of the paddler if they tried to keep the board moving at the same speed (or greater) as they were when using this resistance fin (thereby merely training with greater intensity as a means to get improvement - nothing new there and nothing to do with the fin). They wouldn't have it. It may be a language translation issue but their presentation is riddled with many errors or fraudulent claims. All it is was a tidier alternative to towing tennis balls or buckets (that many of us in rowing, K1 and C1 have been doing for decades). Their product does do this in a much neater and cleaner way and is a nice product but the accompanying text intentionally over-complicates it and makes it read like they have discovered something that nobody knew about (note: the text has been rewritten recently).
They are awesome athletes - no doubt - but I'd be very cautious at anything beyond that.
Post by: ukgm on January 15, 2019, 01:55:31 AM
Bruno says Every year my two trainers can improve my performance by 10-15%. Ah, bless him. In a couple of years hell be so fast that hes lapping himself.Isn't he one of the two trainers himself though ?! Therefore he's talking about himself in the third person ? ;D
10-15% in a year is huge. I don't know how they are quantifying that but I've only seen improvements (in terms of power output) in cycling or running to that kind of level by those who are new to a sport or were chronically overtrained before. 15% as a paddler (in terms of steady-state speed or heart rate reduction for effort) would turn me from the odd small local race winner to high international standard overnight..... and that's just for one years improvement.
Post by: ukgm on January 15, 2019, 01:57:48 AM
How is this going to work with the two twins working together to bring themselves and their sponsor to the podium?
It is interesting that they might accept to loose this advantage by serving two masters.
I think the only real issue for this will the 11 cities. That's going to be interesting but paddlers working together for mutual advantage in races is nothing new and 'blood is thicker than water' as they say. I suspect nothing will change and that they'll use the time trials to separate themselves and work together for the rest.
Post by: Area 10 on January 15, 2019, 02:36:32 AM
Quite. Hence the post I followed up with. 10-15% improvement a year is a ridiculous claim if you are already an elite athlete. Its nice to see thats hes learnt something from Starboard though - maybe the 15% comes from resistance training with porpoises - the SHITA academy will teach you how to impart energy to the water and then harnesss it back twofold thus enabling you to actually leap across the top of the water like a flying fish.Bruno says Every year my two trainers can improve my performance by 10-15%. Ah, bless him. In a couple of years hell be so fast that hes lapping himself.
He seems like a nice guy but I called them out on their resistance-based fin training device once (The 'Push' fin) which they claimed would increase your endurance if you used it. I said that by increasing the resistance only changes the speed of the board and that you'll only increase the physiological power of the paddler if they tried to keep the board moving at the same speed (or greater) as they were when using this resistance fin (thereby merely training with greater intensity as a means to get improvement - nothing new there and nothing to do with the fin). They wouldn't have it. It may be a language translation issue but their presentation is riddled with many errors or fraudulent claims. All it is was a tidier alternative to towing tennis balls or buckets (that many of us in rowing, K1 and C1 have been doing for decades). Their product does do this in a much neater and cleaner way and is a nice product but the accompanying text intentionally over-complicates it and makes it read like they have discovered something that nobody knew about (note: the text has been rewritten recently).
They are awesome athletes - no doubt - but I'd be very cautious at anything beyond that.
Im sorry. I have a low tolerance to BS marketing. Bruno is a superb athlete and it is amazing to see him represent Nelo/Lightcorp. It will really put them on the map with the SUP community. But he needs to learn the dividing line between marketing and outright lying.
Post by: ukgm on January 15, 2019, 12:05:04 PM
Quite. Hence the post I followed up with. 10-15% improvement a year is a ridiculous claim if you are already an elite athlete.
Cripes, you wouldn't even get that kind of lift with performance enhancing drugs let alone a one off boost by 10% in training of a well-trained athlete. The problem is, it only takes one bad anecdote like that and then you doubt the whole thing.
Post by: JEG on January 15, 2019, 01:21:58 PM
Quite. Hence the post I followed up with. 10-15% improvement a year is a ridiculous claim if you are already an elite athlete.
Cripes, you wouldn't even get that kind of lift with performance enhancing drugs let alone a one off boost by 10% in training of a well-trained athlete. The problem is, it only takes one bad anecdote like that and then you doubt the whole thing.
maybe he's found a super drug whatever that maybe? I heard performance-enhancing drugs can boost your ego. I wonder when will the SUP racing authority do drug tests from pro to club level as I'm seeing SUP athletes looking a bit like the cycling community drug issues.
Post by: photofr on January 15, 2019, 10:50:28 PM
The focus here is that I welcome the change, and very glad to see someone like Bruno veer towards Nelo / Lightcorp / Braca Sports.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-fn8trHm/2/X2/i-fn8trHm-X2.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-May-21-Euro-Tour-BEACH/i-fn8trHm/A)
Post by: ukgm on January 15, 2019, 11:47:27 PM
maybe he's found a super drug whatever that maybe? I heard performance-enhancing drugs can boost your ego. I wonder when will the SUP racing authority do drug tests from pro to club level as I'm seeing SUP athletes looking a bit like the cycling community drug issues.
Cycling is no worse than other sport. It has a bad rep but that's as its comparably so highly tested these days. You want to try sports like rugby or your local gym though....
Anyway, my original flippant comment was in reference to a 10% performance lift being larger than that of a PED - not a discussion about who could be using them. I don't think we shouldn't go down that road on a public forum otherwise it can get borderline slanderous eventually.
Post by: photofr on January 16, 2019, 12:30:10 AM
Strength is the easiest to gain - but can be useless after 45 minutes if you don't have other components lined up - like endurance.
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 01:13:22 AM
Hate to admit it, but a 10% increase in performance in a year is very do-able.
Well, to discuss it, how would you quantify a 10% increase in performance ? - V02 max ? (not likely if already well trained and of a certain age), board speed ? (e.g. moving from a cruising speed of 9.5kph to 10.4kph is an unlikely power increase), bodyfat reduction ? (that's possible), functional strength (yes, but that doesn't impact directly on paddling speed wholesale).
They didn't say but I would say a 10-15% increase year on year improvement in any of my examples is unlikely at best and fraudulent at worst.
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 16, 2019, 02:43:11 AM
Hate to admit it, but a 10% increase in performance in a year is very do-able.
Well, to discuss it, how would you quantify a 10% increase in performance ? - V02 max ? (not likely if already well trained and of a certain age), board speed ? (e.g. moving from a cruising speed of 9.5kph to 10.4kph is an unlikely power increase), bodyfat reduction ? (that's possible), functional strength (yes, but that doesn't impact directly on paddling speed wholesale).
They didn't say but I would say a 10-15% increase year on year improvement in any of my examples is unlikely at best and fraudulent at worst.
If the context is SUP racing, performance is measured by race times, which would make it obviously BS.
Maybe endurance - able to maintain a given speed for longer - but it seems like that would also translate to race times and is BS.
Or maybe it's of a more personal nature (and probably still BS ;D ).
Post by: singingdog on January 16, 2019, 04:29:15 AM
Hate to admit it, but a 10% increase in performance in a year is very do-able.
Hmmm, maybe for someone just getting started in endurance sports. But once you get into relatively good shape, an increase of 10% over more than 1 or 2 years probably means you weren't in that good of shape to begin with. A dedicated, nonprofessional marathoner would be very happy to run 2:30. If they went from that time to 2:15, then 2:03 then 1:50 at the end of 3 years!?!?
In any sport where it can be measured, 200 watts is an admirable output over 3-4 hours. Thinking that you could push that to 220 then 242, then finally to 268 in 3 years? I know competitive cyclists that would sell their soul for that kind of increase.
Post by: Area 10 on January 16, 2019, 04:41:23 AM
Yes. Improvements of that size are certainly possible if you are considering the year-long improvement in a very unfit person who starts (perhaps for the first time) a well-directed fitness, technique, and nutrition program. In fact, you could get improvements that are even larger, in that person. But if you are already a world-class, adult, elite, highly trained, professional athlete like Bruno then improvements of that size are pure fantasy.Hate to admit it, but a 10% increase in performance in a year is very do-able.
Well, to discuss it, how would you quantify a 10% increase in performance ? - V02 max ? (not likely if already well trained and of a certain age), board speed ? (e.g. moving from a cruising speed of 9.5kph to 10.4kph is an unlikely power increase), bodyfat reduction ? (that's possible), functional strength (yes, but that doesn't impact directly on paddling speed wholesale).
They didn't say but I would say a 10-15% increase year on year improvement in any of my examples is unlikely at best and fraudulent at worst.
Its always 10%, isnt it? In the first few years of SUP, several brands claimed each year that their new boards were 10% faster than last years. The figure was always 10%. Of course, they werent, and after getting roundly criticised on forums like this, the brands stopped making such silly claims. Maybe Bruno is too new to the field to remember these lessons. Let your results do the talking, Bruno, and drop the BS. Your wonderful new sponsors will not thank you for making marketing claims that cant be supported. Its not a good long-term marketing strategy.
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 05:09:09 AM
In any sport where it can be measured, 200 watts is an admirable output over 3-4 hours. Thinking that you could push that to 220 then 242, then finally to 268 in 3 years? I know competitive cyclists that would sell their soul for that kind of increase.
I agree. I put out circa 350 watts for a 10 mile time trial. The best increase in performance I've ever gained annually (over 16 race seasons) is around 5%. I do find it easier to maintain fitness now and I can get back to my best level quite quickly but once you're past 40 and you allow that its a fight with your slowing metabolism and a fading VO2 max, the best you can hope for is that your knowledge is as cutting edge as it can get and that you can hold onto what you have.
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 05:17:39 AM
Yes. Improvements of that size are certainly possible if you are considering the year-long improvement in a very unfit person who starts (perhaps for the first time) a well-directed fitness, technique, and nutrition program. In fact, you could get improvements that are even larger, in that person. But if you are already a world-class, adult, elite, highly trained, professional athlete like Bruno then improvements of that size are pure fantasy.A 10% swing from off-season to peak certainly is very possible. That's quite common but you can lose a lot of your race season getting that corrected. I also read a recommendation in the book 'Racing Weight' by Matt Fitzgerald (a helpful book I'd recommend that I used to help guide my weight loss from 95kg down to 88.5kg two years ago.) that suggested that elite athletes are ok to let their weight increase by 10% in the off-season. Former Tour de France winner Jan Ullrich was renowned for liking the cakes a little too much in the winter months and would have to take quite extreme measures to hit the right weight by July.
Anyway, I'm getting off topic - yep I agree with you, it's fantasy but if he knows something I don't, I (and most of the sporting world) would be happy to listen.
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 05:28:43 AM
I'm hoping to be lent the Signature 2.0 24.75 next.
Post by: Area 10 on January 16, 2019, 07:49:40 AM
Just to bring us back on topic, I'm racing the GT this weekend at a local time trial series before I hand it back next week (after I do a review video) and have now logged 12-15 total hours on it. The weather hasn't produced the range of water states I was hoping for but I have set hell of lot of training PB's with it on flatwater and light chop with it. I'm still trying to get used to its lack of weight and inertia.......What is it like upwind (say, 20 knots) in 1ft chop?
I'm hoping to be lent the Signature 2.0 24.75 next.
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 09:00:58 AM
Just to bring us back on topic, I'm racing the GT this weekend at a local time trial series before I hand it back next week (after I do a review video) and have now logged 12-15 total hours on it. The weather hasn't produced the range of water states I was hoping for but I have set hell of lot of training PB's with it on flatwater and light chop with it. I'm still trying to get used to its lack of weight and inertia.......What is it like upwind (say, 20 knots) in 1ft chop?
I'm hoping to be lent the Signature 2.0 24.75 next.
Really good and I've done a fair bit of that. The only issue is you find that its so light, it doesn't carry a lot of momentum so you have to modify your paddling stroke to be quite short and with a high rate. I find the nose design itself has a similar light splash feel as my 2017 Naish Maliko. The only thing I would say is that due to the hollow nature, any footwork feels, well, a bit odd. Partly as every movement resonates through the board like knocking on a guitar and you don't feel as physically connected as you do on a solid board (this is a bit subjective on my part though).
Post by: Area 10 on January 16, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 01:12:55 PM
Yeah, some downwind guys decide that they dont like the noise and dynamics of a hollow board, even though there are obvious advantages to the construction.
I wonder what board Bruno is going to use because I would argue he's going to want something narrower than their current range for flatwater stuff.
Post by: photofr on January 17, 2019, 02:00:10 AM
We have to remember that boards like the SB 14x21.5 have a lot more water friction going on their underside (for added stability) and that the Signature 14x23 is made of a hull with the exact opposite characteristics: nicely rounded hull. Either way, the first race with Bruno will be one to watch - glued to your favorite monitor.
Post by: burchas on January 17, 2019, 05:50:25 AM
With his power, low body fat, and stamina, he should do very well on it.
He'd do well on a skimboard or pretty much anything else for that matter but that's not the point.
From the looks of it, he has a smaller frame than yours Photo, 135 if I had to guess. Having close knowledge of this board you'd know
that it doesn't play to your strength. Yes, he's much stronger and skilled but you'd have to think it puts him in immediate disadvantage,
especially on flat water where bigger stronger paddlers can jump on a 21" board no problem. Should be interesting.
Post by: photofr on January 17, 2019, 07:50:48 AM
With your comparison, I am more a skim board kind of guy, and hes more like a paddling machine ready to be FREED -
Post by: ukgm on January 18, 2019, 12:28:48 AM
With his power, low body fat, and stamina, he should do very well on it.
He'd do well on a skimboard or pretty much anything else for that matter but that's not the point.
From the looks of it, he has a smaller frame than yours Photo, 135 if I had to guess. Having close knowledge of this board you'd know
that it doesn't play to your strength. Yes, he's much stronger and skilled but you'd have to think it puts him in immediate disadvantage,
especially on flat water where bigger stronger paddlers can jump on a 21" board no problem. Should be interesting.
I agree. With the GT at circa 297 and the Signature over 300, the volumes are ideal for me but must surely be too high for someone of Bruno's slight build.
Post by: Area 10 on January 18, 2019, 03:46:50 AM
Post by: photofr on January 18, 2019, 07:59:18 PM
With his power, low body fat, and stamina, he should do very well on it.
He'd do well on a skimboard or pretty much anything else for that matter but that's not the point.
From the looks of it, he has a smaller frame than yours Photo, 135 if I had to guess. Having close knowledge of this board you'd know
that it doesn't play to your strength. Yes, he's much stronger and skilled but you'd have to think it puts him in immediate disadvantage,
especially on flat water where bigger stronger paddlers can jump on a 21" board no problem. Should be interesting.
I agree. With the GT at circa 297 and the Signature over 300, the volumes are ideal for me but must surely be too high for someone of Bruno's slight build.
@ UKGM:
I am still unsure as to how you guys come up with the fact that Bruno is a featherweight. In real life, he's like 173 pounds (a hair under 80 kilos).
The Signature 2.0 board is better geared for someone above 65 kilos (but you guys are probably reading 95 kilo riders) :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
Post by: Area 10 on January 19, 2019, 03:40:40 AM
Im so glad I only paddle for pleasure and fitness these days. I push myself reasonably hard in my paddle sessions - my Garmin Fenix 3 regularly nags me for over-reaching in sessions - and cannot imagine what Id gain by having a load of other people thrashing the water around me. But maybe some of you guys need the facilitation effect of other people to motivate you. It will be interesting to see what demographic buys these Nelo boards. The market (in Europe at least) for very high-end specialist race boards is very small, and they will be up against the marketing onslaught that is Starboard. Plus, if the Nelo boards actually last more than a couple of seasons (unlike the Starboard Ace I owned), then how long before the market is saturated? On the face of it, the Nelo boards would appeal to someone like me. But they sound too technical for me. And yet they arent so very high-end at their widths as to be aspirational for the uber-elite racer. So its a fairly small demographic that they will appeal to, surely?
Post by: burchas on January 19, 2019, 06:10:02 AM
In real life, he's like 173 pounds
As oppose to what? The online video that uses special effects to make it look like he could hide behind his paddle.
Where are you getting your facts? Connor has a head over him and he is 165
He looks more like kai size only with less body fat and kai is 155
Post by: photofr on January 21, 2019, 10:00:50 AM
I met him in 2016 - He certainly hasnt shrinked since, though he may have lost a few pounds.
Those boards are specifically not designed for people under 65 kilos... point being, the Nelo boards arent currently suited for my weight, but they are perfect for his weight - since hes well above the 65 kilo mark.
Post by: ukgm on January 21, 2019, 10:58:00 AM
With his power, low body fat, and stamina, he should do very well on it.
He'd do well on a skimboard or pretty much anything else for that matter but that's not the point.
From the looks of it, he has a smaller frame than yours Photo, 135 if I had to guess. Having close knowledge of this board you'd know
that it doesn't play to your strength. Yes, he's much stronger and skilled but you'd have to think it puts him in immediate disadvantage,
especially on flat water where bigger stronger paddlers can jump on a 21" board no problem. Should be interesting.
I agree. With the GT at circa 297 and the Signature over 300, the volumes are ideal for me but must surely be too high for someone of Bruno's slight build.
@ UKGM:
I am still unsure as to how you guys come up with the fact that Bruno is a featherweight. In real life, he's like 173 pounds (a hair under 80 kilos).
The Signature 2.0 board is better geared for someone above 65 kilos (but you guys are probably reading 95 kilo riders) :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
Im 88kg very lean at full race fitness and I would consider most boards with volume north of 290 ideal for me. Or to put it another way and to provide some anecdotal references:
1) one of the reasons I was told that Naish have left the Maliko such a comparably low volume over the last 4-5 years was because it was sized for Kai. Hell, Casper is one of the taller athletes they have and he is of slight build really when I met him.
2) the original Lightcorp signature was sized for their German athletes who apparently were quite big. However, the 2.0 had more volume thrown at it as they wanted more.
Both of this things lead me to guess that youll see Bruno on a different board. At the very least I know they could shave the weight even further (and I would encourage this).
Post by: Area 10 on January 21, 2019, 11:39:32 AM
Post by: ukgm on January 21, 2019, 11:48:58 PM
Unfortunately for Nero/Lightcorp, since Bruno has said that his physical training will result in a 10-15% improvement, if he does start winning by a mile, everyone will put it down to his new training regimen, and not the board :)
In my experience, people will normally assume that the most superficial thing is responsible, not the subtleties of the graft. When Lance Armstrong made his [er, drug assisted] comeback in '99, the sale of the bikes took Trek from what had been a relatively small and unspectacular bike brand to one of the largest in the world for both cycling and triathlon within just 2-3 years.
Post by: photofr on January 22, 2019, 01:29:21 AM
- it now has 3 hollow boards to choose from
- they are super quick to making changes / new molds
Yes, I was very surprised when, just couple of months after releasing the signature 1.0 that was not ideal for the 80-90 kilos athlete, Lightcorp release the modified 2.0. This is a HUGE deal when we are talking about mold construction- so this is in fact very promissing for the future of Nelo / Lightcorp SUP.
Post by: Area 10 on January 22, 2019, 02:50:41 AM
But that is probably just brand recognition. They bought the most spectacular billboard going.Unfortunately for Nero/Lightcorp, since Bruno has said that his physical training will result in a 10-15% improvement, if he does start winning by a mile, everyone will put it down to his new training regimen, and not the board :)
In my experience, people will normally assume that the most superficial thing is responsible, not the subtleties of the graft. When Lance Armstrong made his [er, drug assisted] comeback in '99, the sale of the bikes took Trek from what had been a relatively small and unspectacular bike brand to one of the largest in the world for both cycling and triathlon within just 2-3 years.
But Nelo have clearly really committed to this. And it wouldnt be hard to see them cleaning up in the high-end inland waters SUP market. The competition is producing poor-value boards built using steam-powered technology in a digital age. Nelo now just need a board that virtually everyone who is moderately serious about their paddling can use, for pleasure/fitness as well as racing. If these boards last really well, and they only build super-tippy ones, it wouldnt be long before the used market is saturated with them at bargain prices, and theyd be no reason to buy one new. Most SUP racers only race for one or two seasons.
Im really looking forward to being able to buy one, as soon as they make one for people like me.
Post by: photofr on January 22, 2019, 03:32:21 AM
I am still unsure if you have actually tried one, or seen a Nelo board yet... but I am curious to know your opinion:
"What deters you from checking out a Signature 2.0 14x24.75?
I am curious, based on a short list of advantages listed below:
- For the last 25 years, records show that hollow foam-core constructions will last and endure lots of abuse.
- We also know that the Nelo boards are LIGHT, fun to carry around, and super fun to accelerate on.
- Travelling with a board on your roof will outlast any other board I know of.
- Pressure dings are a thing of the past (comparing my many SB with Nelo's construction here).
- Paddle marks are nearly non-existant - and will buff out back to perfection.
- The 24.75 (though I have never tried it) would seem like a great choice for MANY PADDLERS like you (serious about your paddling, but not crazy about racing).
- You are lucky enough not be a featherweight paddler...
Post by: Area 10 on January 22, 2019, 04:28:17 AM
1. Deep dugouts, with sharp sidewalls.
People like me paddle in a wide range of conditions, including choppy and windy ocean as well as pure flat protected inland waters. We also paddle all year round, sometimes in freezing conditions. Falling from, and then getting back into a dugout board (especially with narrow sidewalls) is difficult and slow in chop and wind, and you can get an awful birdbath effect that stops you dead if water splashes into the birdbath area. If you wear a waist leash or Camelbak with a waist leash then getting back into a dugout can easily scratch or damage the delicate thin sidewalls.
Basically, dugouts are a PITA unless you are a dedicated win-no-matter-what racer, and/or never fall in. I think the RS is just about as deep as you can go before it becomes too obstructive.
2. Convex hulls.
Convex hulls do not surf or downwind well. They are also unpleasantly tippy for their width. People like me want a board that can be used for a wide variety of purposes, and if we for instance go to the beach and find a little wave there, we want to be able to surf it. Or if its windy, do upwind/downwind laps. Forget doing any of this with a convex hull. There just arent the edges to release the water to get planing, and you have little directional control. Id rather buy a flat or concave hulled board that is narrower than a wider convex one that would be the same stability. Id be faster on the narrower board, even in pure flat water, and would be able to do more with it.
3. Narrow widths suitable only for racing.
Racing is substantially about who is willing to suffer the most discomfort in order to win. Fitness/touring however largely requires boards that are comfortable to paddle. People like me do not enjoy having our precious SUP sessions cut short because balancing on the board is like balancing on a log. We want to get our heart rates up, work on developing our strokes and a nice rhythm, and sometimes maybe carry some light loads for longer day trips or extra clothing in case of weather change. But we dont want our board to be a barge either: it has to be a nice compromise between narrowness to allow us to race if we want to and mechanically to get a good stroke and work on our PBs for circuits we know well, and yet not so narrow that only our teenage kids can stand on it for more than 30 mins, and if we raced wed be falling off in the first 100 yds madness.
Basically, what people like me want is more along the lines of the SIC RS or Starboard All Star. Only wed like them lighter, more durable, and generally better built. We are not looking for a twitchy highly-specialised canoe that you stand up in. That may suit the elite racers who may be advising Nelo on aspects of design. But it wont appeal to many outside a handful of top (probably sponsored) racers in each country.
Hope this helps. I am indeed basically the market demographic for Nelo, Id think, to a substantial degree. And potentially I would buy one, for sure, despite the extreme economic uncertainty in the UK at the moment. But Nelo arent making the right board for me, at the moment. I suspect they should try sticking some ordinary SUP enthusiasts on their boards (especially those who paddle mixed conditions) and get some real-world user feedback. There are so many options out there today that if you are going to pay top dollar for a board, it has to hit all the main user-friendly/versatility points square on the nose. For us guys, comfort and handling predictability *is* speed, as well as enjoyment.
Post by: Luc Benac on January 22, 2019, 07:14:02 AM
Thanks for the question. People like me dont want:
People like me just want to have fun on a decent board that can be used for a variety of conditions :-)
https://youtu.be/-CU2sxFXBV4 (https://youtu.be/-CU2sxFXBV4)
Post by: Area 10 on January 22, 2019, 08:21:50 AM
Yeah, thats a good example. I was answering the Q as to why I *didnt* want a board like the Nelo Signature 2.0. But if I were asked to give a list of the kind of board I *do* want, the Maliko would be on it. Also, the SIC RS, Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder, Infinity Blackfish, Starboard All Star etc. Maybe the Fanatic Blitz (I havent tried one yet). None have deep dugouts, and none have convex hulls. Somewhere around the 24.5-26 wide range (for a 14) is about right for people like me in mixed conditions.Thanks for the question. People like me dont want:
People like me just want to have fun on a decent board that can be used for a variety of conditions :-)
https://youtu.be/-CU2sxFXBV4 (https://youtu.be/-CU2sxFXBV4)
Post by: ukgm on January 22, 2019, 09:23:08 AM
But that is probably just brand recognition. They bought the most spectacular billboard going.
No, as the brand and model had little recognition prior to it. This is instead a typical effect with any endorsement of a sports product by a recognisable athlete with abilities desired by lesser individuals.
Post by: ukgm on January 22, 2019, 09:37:04 AM
Thanks for the question. People like me dont want:1. I agree. I think avoiding features like this is equally why Allstar's and Maliko's are so popular beyond just their allwater useability. They have an everyday pleasant and uncomplicated nature to them.
1. Deep dugouts, with sharp sidewalls.
2. Convex hulls.
3. Narrow widths suitable only for racing.
2. Ditto. I agree wholesale. Any board can be manageable by the right athlete but there is nothing pleasant about a constantly rolling profile.
3. This is the big one in my view. I'm not sure on the signature yet but the GT in a 24-26 width would be a industry gamechanger in my view
Post by: Bean on January 22, 2019, 10:03:28 AM
Post by: Area 10 on January 22, 2019, 12:24:06 PM
Nope. No-one thought it was his bike that made Lance fast. They thought it was because he was an extraordinary specimen. I remember reams of paper being spewed out in the subject of his extraordinary physique with no mention of his bike. But for sure, once people heard that he was using X brand, theyd reckon it was worth buying. It meant that it was a top-drawer brand, and was possible to win on it. But I dont think anyone thought that if hed jumped on another bike hed have stopped winning. At least, no-one with an IQ above 80, anyway.
But that is probably just brand recognition. They bought the most spectacular billboard going.
No, as the brand and model had little recognition prior to it. This is instead a typical effect with any endorsement of a sports product by a recognisable athlete with abilities desired by lesser individuals.
Post by: ukgm on January 22, 2019, 01:14:17 PM
Quote from: Area 10 link=topic=31801.msg392311#msg392311 date=
1) Nope. No-one thought it was his bike that made Lance fast. They thought it was because he was an extraordinary specimen. I remember reams of paper being spewed out in the subject of his extraordinary physique with no mention of his bike. But for sure, once people heard that he was using X brand, theyd reckon it was worth buying. It meant that it was a top-drawer brand, and was possible to win on it.
2) But I dont think anyone thought that if hed jumped on another bike hed have stopped winning. At least, no-one with an IQ above 80, anyway.
1) Not true. He made a big deal out of his 'F-one' team (a multidisciplinary, multi-person approach to his personal equipment development using several guys like Steve Hed, John Cobb and others) and the bikes and equipment it created such as his trek ttt bike or the Madone road bike. I was aware of this at the time despite being some 10 years before I became a sports technologist but it was a cutting edge approach in the sport similar to what Team Sky reproduced from 2010.
This is a matter of public record and recounted in most books about him but some like - 'It's not about the bike' is one of the more well known ones.
2) I'm not saying Lance didn't win because he wasn't a fine specimen. He was a juiced to the max example of athletic perfection - but his success formula went well beyond that. Oh, and if you think a bike isn't crucial to this - you'd also be wrong. I know of two accounts already this year where this has happened. The reason isn't aerodynamics of the frame (as these have converged heavily in bike design now - sound familiar ?) but instead its because the ergonomic fit of a bike pushed on them by a new sponsor doesn't work and they can't produce the power or get the aerodynamic riding position they need. To give you an example (and I can say this with a lot of time logged in wind tunnels and on velodromes sorting my own position out) that by moving the grand total of around 20mm in a couple of directions has dropped my 10 mile bike time trial by a minute..... for no extra effort or power requirement. Lance had a weird kick in his back due to the rules of time the time. When he went back to triathlon some years later, he was actually a better cyclist as the ergonomic rules were more lax.
A phrase I use a lot in my stuff is 'when it comes to equipment, you can't turn a donkey into a racehorse but you can easily turn a racehorse into a donkey'.
Post by: Luc Benac on January 22, 2019, 01:17:08 PM
Post by: Area 10 on January 22, 2019, 02:39:51 PM
Well I am sure not buying a board because Hasulyo is racing for the brand.....just like I did not bought a Maliko because Kay Lennie or Casper were paddling Naish. I bought one because, Burchas, Area10 and DJ vouch for it and what it was like on the water and because I found a good deal for a used like new one in my region.Yeah, the best way if determining if a board is for you is to try it yourself. But if you cant, then the recommendations of people like you, and who have no COI, is definitely the way to go. Definitely the least effective strategy would be to just pick the board that the elite racers of the moment is using. Those guys and girls could make any POS work - and that has happened sometimes over the past 10 years.
Post by: photofr on January 23, 2019, 01:23:20 AM
Interesting responses.
@EVERYONE:
I can vouch that I am no longer racing anything... but I totally enjoy a good workout, pushing myself a bit, and having a lot of fun. For this, I see a number of boards that would be well suited for my needs, including the Signature 2.0.
How can we say that this board isn't versatile?
How can we automatically assume that it won't surf well, or downwind?
The fact is that while the 2.0 has a nicely rounded hull, it's far less rounded than say the 1.0 version.
The fact is that the 2.0 isn't a flat water board (the darn thing isn't flat by any means). Just take a look at its very existent and pronounced rear rocker.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-MpLpLw9/0/983e0830/XL/i-MpLpLw9-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-SEP-14-Taking-a-Closer-Look/n-VtZsbF/i-MpLpLw9/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-mgFJVgQ/0/450b532a/XL/i-mgFJVgQ-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-SEP-14-Taking-a-Closer-Look/n-VtZsbF/i-mgFJVgQ/A)
Post by: ukgm on January 23, 2019, 02:25:57 AM
Well I am sure not buying a board because Hasulyo is racing for the brand.....just like I did not bought a Maliko because Kay Lennie or Casper were paddling Naish. I bought one because, Burchas, Area10 and DJ vouch for it and what it was like on the water and because I found a good deal for a used like new one in my region.
It's because you're a well informed exponent of the sport though. Most of the market isn't and often doesn't want to be. People like ourselves will demo, demo and demo some more. Most though will look around at the start line, see what everyone else is using and go with either that or what their apparent idols are using. It's the same in most sports with feelings on this shaped by peoples perceptions of whether they think the technology makes much difference in their performance. I personally believe its relatively close enough between the main brands designs now to lead people to assume that it doesn't matter. As a result, we now need a technological leap to shake things up. A 4-5kg weight drop of a race board is a bloody good place to start.
Post by: photofr on January 23, 2019, 02:53:41 AM
Yeah - making boards lighter (and stronger) is a great place to start.
Totally agree though:
There needs to be more board choices. I think they are on the right track with the GT vs. the Signature.
The fact that Nelo is taking care of the build may very well mean that in the near future, we'll see a M, L and XL designation... After all, Nelo is one of the few kayak in the World who will currently accommodate tiny, medium, large and extra large paddler (for the SAME kayak). So again, we are likely to see that come about with SUP boards. I know that I CAN'T WAIT.
Post by: Area 10 on January 23, 2019, 04:15:52 AM
@AREA:Well, *does* it surf and downwind well, compared to its competition?
Interesting responses.
@EVERYONE:
I can vouch that I am no longer racing anything... but I totally enjoy a good workout, pushing myself a bit, and having a lot of fun. For this, I see a number of boards that would be well suited for my needs, including the Signature 2.0.
How can we say that this board isn't versatile?
How can we automatically assume that it won't surf well, or downwind?
The fact is that while the 2.0 has a nicely rounded hull, it's far less rounded than say the 1.0 version.
The fact is that the 2.0 isn't a flat water board (the darn thing isn't flat by any means). Just take a look at its very existent and pronounced rear rocker.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-MpLpLw9/0/983e0830/XL/i-MpLpLw9-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-SEP-14-Taking-a-Closer-Look/n-VtZsbF/i-MpLpLw9/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-mgFJVgQ/0/450b532a/XL/i-mgFJVgQ-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-SEP-14-Taking-a-Closer-Look/n-VtZsbF/i-mgFJVgQ/A)
It wouldnt matter though: its a hot tub and having owned a hot tub before, Im never going to own one again. Hateful things. Theres a reason that they arent used universally by elite racers. For technical and beach racing etc they are generally a liability. They are hard to carry and transport too. The obvious place for one is pure flat water. But most dont want a board that is that specialised. They also just look ugly.
Post by: ukgm on January 23, 2019, 04:29:52 AM
Post by: Area 10 on January 23, 2019, 05:09:38 AM
In my view, if i could have a shape like the 2017 Starboard Allstar shape but with this construction method, I'd never want or need another board. Lightsignature in their own literature make no apologies for the fact their shapes are uncompromising but they'll miss a trick if they don't consider this soon..... before someone else does. Mind you, it won't be Nelo's K1 competitor Plastex. Their new hollow board has major issues in my view.Yes, exactly.
Weve seen many brands try to get too clever over the past 10-12 years. They figure that if they make a highly specialised board and pick their races then they will get podium places and then everyone will start buying their boards. But this strategy only survives as long as the first demo by your intended demographic. Soon the word spreads like wildfire that the board is an absolute pig in chop or beach races, or in flat water (whichever applies), and then its all over for your brand. Its a slow crawl back then, and can take several years, while your retailers tell you that your superboards are now hanging on the wall as a monument to the arrogance of the person who designed it. You gotta listen to your punters. Make the board easy to use, versatile, well-made and good-looking and youll clean up.
Post by: photofr on January 23, 2019, 10:38:47 AM
@AREA:Well, *does* it surf and downwind well, compared to its competition?
Interesting responses.
@EVERYONE:
I can vouch that I am no longer racing anything... but I totally enjoy a good workout, pushing myself a bit, and having a lot of fun. For this, I see a number of boards that would be well suited for my needs, including the Signature 2.0.
How can we say that this board isn't versatile?
How can we automatically assume that it won't surf well, or downwind?
The fact is that while the 2.0 has a nicely rounded hull, it's far less rounded than say the 1.0 version.
The fact is that the 2.0 isn't a flat water board (the darn thing isn't flat by any means). Just take a look at its very existent and pronounced rear rocker.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-MpLpLw9/0/983e0830/XL/i-MpLpLw9-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-SEP-14-Taking-a-Closer-Look/n-VtZsbF/i-MpLpLw9/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-mgFJVgQ/0/450b532a/XL/i-mgFJVgQ-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-SEP-14-Taking-a-Closer-Look/n-VtZsbF/i-mgFJVgQ/A)
It wouldnt matter though: its a hot tub and having owned a hot tub before, Im never going to own one again. Hateful things. Theres a reason that they arent used universally by elite racers. For technical and beach racing etc they are generally a liability. They are hard to carry and transport too. The obvious place for one is pure flat water. But most dont want a board that is that specialised. They also just look ugly.
@AREA:
I have been on better downwind machines... The Ace, The SIC Bullet UL (which will DW quite well).
However, I find that the Signature 2.0:
- Surfs and DW better than some competitors (the Sprint 14x23 for example).
- Surfs better than the Ace (way more manoeuvrable, in my opinion, and easier to step back with my lightweight).
- DW better than the Allstar FOR ME - as I have way more fun with the 2.0 and its accelerations, linking bumps, and simply catching bumps.
- Excels on the flats, though it could be even faster on flats had they not made it so versatile.
It's not a perfect board - but man, it's well thought out. However, you are right: the Signature 2.0 (14x23) isn't for everyone.
Post by: JEG on January 23, 2019, 02:06:52 PM
@AREA:
Interesting responses.
@EVERYONE:
I can vouch that I am no longer racing anything... but I totally enjoy a good workout, pushing myself a bit, and having a lot of fun. For this, I see a number of boards that would be well suited for my needs, including the Signature 2.0.
How can we say that this board isn't versatile?
How can we automatically assume that it won't surf well, or downwind?
The fact is that while the 2.0 has a nicely rounded hull, it's far less rounded than say the 1.0 version.
The fact is that the 2.0 isn't a flat water board (the darn thing isn't flat by any means). Just take a look at its very existent and pronounced rear rocker.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-MpLpLw9/0/983e0830/XL/i-MpLpLw9-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-SEP-14-Taking-a-Closer-Look/n-VtZsbF/i-MpLpLw9/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-mgFJVgQ/0/450b532a/XL/i-mgFJVgQ-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-SEP-14-Taking-a-Closer-Look/n-VtZsbF/i-mgFJVgQ/A)
nice looking board though
Post by: photofr on January 28, 2019, 05:23:23 AM
Custom-colors :) :) :)
Follows the tradition of my surfskis.
Post by: ukgm on March 01, 2019, 07:56:02 AM
https://www.supboardermag.com/equipment_guide/light-board-corp-gt-14-x-23-5/
Post by: Luc Benac on March 01, 2019, 08:10:17 AM
Its been a while but here is my review of the GT board that finally came out today. It's a long and detailed review but apologies there isn't on the water footage but I picked up a virus (then a shoulder injury) and was unable to complete it. Just to be clear, I have no affiliation with the brand and I (sadly) have to give the board back. I thought it was great.
https://www.supboardermag.com/equipment_guide/light-board-corp-gt-14-x-23-5/
Great. Will watch it this week-end. Bryce how much open water down-winding testing have you included in your review (just for my info in interpreting the results into my World)?
Cheers
Post by: ukgm on March 01, 2019, 08:14:15 AM
Its been a while but here is my review of the GT board that finally came out today. It's a long and detailed review but apologies there isn't on the water footage but I picked up a virus (then a shoulder injury) and was unable to complete it. Just to be clear, I have no affiliation with the brand and I (sadly) have to give the board back. I thought it was great.
https://www.supboardermag.com/equipment_guide/light-board-corp-gt-14-x-23-5/
Great. Will watch it this week-end. Bryce how much open water down-winding testing have you included in your review (just for my info in interpreting the results into my World)?
Cheers
To be honest, none. It was used on flatwater and chop (upto a couple of feet high). The weather didn't play ball with anything else.
Post by: burchas on March 01, 2019, 10:04:49 AM
Its been a while but here is my review of the GT board that finally came out today. It's a long and detailed review but apologies there isn't on the water footage but I picked up a virus (then a shoulder injury) and was unable to complete it. Just to be clear, I have no affiliation with the brand and I (sadly) have to give the board back. I thought it was great.
https://www.supboardermag.com/equipment_guide/light-board-corp-gt-14-x-23-5/
Nicely made and informative for the most part.
I do have issue with your assertion of 4kg difference from the competition though.
for the most part is a single kg to 2kg difference for a board with same dimensions.
Furthermore, foam boards can come even lighter than the Light Board Corp GT.
My Infinity Blackfish was 19.5lb(8.85kg) so the emphasis on wight might be
a little bit over the top.
Realistically, I could have an 18lb SIC RS 14x23.5 for a better price. Construction going
to suffer for sure but I'll have the edge in racing which is what this board is for.
Post by: ukgm on March 01, 2019, 10:33:50 AM
1) I weighed it against a couple of Allstars and a Mistral to be fair of comparable width. Granted, this won't apply to everything.Its been a while but here is my review of the GT board that finally came out today. It's a long and detailed review but apologies there isn't on the water footage but I picked up a virus (then a shoulder injury) and was unable to complete it. Just to be clear, I have no affiliation with the brand and I (sadly) have to give the board back. I thought it was great.
https://www.supboardermag.com/equipment_guide/light-board-corp-gt-14-x-23-5/
Nicely made and informative for the most part.
1) I do have issue with your assertion of 4kg difference from the competition though.
for the most part is a single kg to 2kg difference for a board with same dimensions.
2) Furthermore, foam boards can come even lighter than the Light Board Corp GT.
My Infinity Blackfish was 19.5lb(8.85kg) so the emphasis on wight might be
a little bit over the top.
2) I guess it depends on your data and how that weight is distributed. In my experience, it was not over the top. That being said, I didn't know the Blackfish could build down that light.
Post by: Area 10 on March 01, 2019, 11:43:08 AM
Post by: burchas on March 01, 2019, 01:34:54 PM
...In my experience, it was not over the top. That being said, I didn't know the Blackfish could build down that light.
Fair point. In that context you'd be right to put emphasis on that.
BTW, I've seen Blackfish as low as 17LB and the last SIC board I took for a spin
(Custom Bayonet 17'1"X25) was just over 20LB for reference hence my comment on custom RS.
Post by: mr_proper on March 01, 2019, 02:47:03 PM
Post by: Area 10 on March 01, 2019, 03:23:43 PM
Holy crap! 20lbs for an unlimited DW board... it must just be foam that theyve breathed on :)...In my experience, it was not over the top. That being said, I didn't know the Blackfish could build down that light.
Fair point. In that context you'd be right to put emphasis on that.
BTW, I've seen Blackfish as low as 17LB and the last SIC board I took for a spin
(Custom Bayonet 17'1"X25) was just over 20LB for reference hence my comment on custom RS.
The main difference I think with the Nelo is going to be in the durability rather than the weight. But will people pay for durability? Most racers who will buy a board like this are only buying it for one season anyway.
I think Ill wait 50 weeks and pick one up for 30% of new...
Post by: Area 10 on March 01, 2019, 03:29:28 PM
Lightcorp will launch pretty soon the LIGHTCORP GT 14x 21" as well as the Signature 2.0 14x 22" Light Board CorpOk so this really is the predictions that Jim Terrell made years ago made real. Youd better start dropping your knee.
Time for the much cooler and fun side of SUP (anything in the ocean, basically) to separate itself from inland stand-up canoeing.
Post by: burchas on March 01, 2019, 04:39:21 PM
Holy crap! 20lbs for an unlimited DW board... it must just be foam that theyve breathed on :)
Must be. I had it for a week, out every day for a run or two, felt solid. That said,
The guy after me buckled it mid channel. Nelo will sure have the edge in that
department.
Post by: Area 10 on March 01, 2019, 05:51:59 PM
Well, they will if they ever make something that could be used mid channel. But that might be stepping outside their area of expertise, and SIC Maui already make hollow boards.Holy crap! 20lbs for an unlimited DW board... it must just be foam that theyve breathed on :)
Must be. I had it for a week, out every day for a run or two, felt solid. That said,
The guy after me buckled it mid channel. Nelo will sure have the edge in that
department.
Post by: ukgm on March 01, 2019, 11:50:45 PM
Lightcorp will launch pretty soon the LIGHTCORP GT 14x 21" as well as the Signature 2.0 14x 22" Light Board Corp
Yep. Bruno sent me a facebook friendship request after the review went up and I could see footage of him testing them. It's the wrong way in my view - they need a 26-28 width version.
Also, their lay-up is conservative for the size - they could build the GT much lighter than they have if surfski's are anything to go by.
Post by: ukgm on March 01, 2019, 11:53:23 PM
1) That's starboards fault. Hollow board constructors won't be able to do that due to mould costs. Ski's stay in range for 4-5 years typically.
1) The main difference I think with the Nelo is going to be in the durability rather than the weight. But will people pay for durability? Most racers who will buy a board like this are only buying it for one season anyway.
2) I think Ill wait 50 weeks and pick one up for 30% of new...
2) That won't happen (due to the above).
Post by: ukgm on March 01, 2019, 11:54:51 PM
...In my experience, it was not over the top. That being said, I didn't know the Blackfish could build down that light.
Fair point. In that context you'd be right to put emphasis on that.
BTW, I've seen Blackfish as low as 17LB and the last SIC board I took for a spin
(Custom Bayonet 17'1"X25) was just over 20LB for reference hence my comment on custom RS.
You were right to call me out on that. As Area10 says, its durability that will really outshine the others. How robust can a foam core board be at that weight ?
Post by: Area 10 on March 02, 2019, 02:00:16 AM
I think you underestimate the power of marketing upon the competitive mind. If you tell a really competitive person that they can gain an advantage using X design, even if X design will fall apart after one season, they will sell their own grandmother in order to buy it. The only people who are going to be buying boards at these widths will be ber-competitive types: no-one buys boards this narrow for fun (unless its a rich parent buying it for their kid). Plus, lots of people will actually find that they are faster in the reality of racing on a board that isnt so twitchy. This is by a plug-and-play board, according to your review. Who is going to want to waste a whole season falling in? So youll have to be young and fit to use it. But how many youngsters can afford this board? If the used market for a product is small, the price will be low.1) That's starboards fault. Hollow board constructors won't be able to do that due to mould costs. Ski's stay in range for 4-5 years typically.
1) The main difference I think with the Nelo is going to be in the durability rather than the weight. But will people pay for durability? Most racers who will buy a board like this are only buying it for one season anyway.
2) I think Ill wait 50 weeks and pick one up for 30% of new...
2) That won't happen (due to the above).
People dont update their All Stars every year because the board has fallen apart. They update because they believe the marketing BS surrounding the new model.
But I guess we will see in due course. Perhaps there will be floods of people buying this board, and then they will each hold onto it for 5 years before updating it. Or maybe not.
Post by: ukgm on March 02, 2019, 02:19:37 AM
I think you underestimate the power of marketing upon the competitive mind. If you tell a really competitive person that they can gain an advantage using X design, even if X design will fall apart after one season, they will sell their own grandmother in order to buy it. The only people who are going to be buying boards at these widths will be ber-competitive types: no-one buys boards this narrow for fun (unless its a rich parent buying it for their kid). Plus, lots of people will actually find that they are faster in the reality of racing on a board that isnt so twitchy. This is by a plug-and-play board, according to your review. Who is going to want to waste a whole season falling in? So youll have to be young and fit to use it. But how many youngsters can afford this board? If the used market for a product is small, the price will be low.1) That's starboards fault. Hollow board constructors won't be able to do that due to mould costs. Ski's stay in range for 4-5 years typically.
1) The main difference I think with the Nelo is going to be in the durability rather than the weight. But will people pay for durability? Most racers who will buy a board like this are only buying it for one season anyway.
2) I think Ill wait 50 weeks and pick one up for 30% of new...
2) That won't happen (due to the above).
People dont update their All Stars every year because the board has fallen apart. They update because they believe the marketing BS surrounding the new model.
But I guess we will see in due course. Perhaps there will be floods of people buying this board, and then they will each hold onto it for 5 years before updating it. Or maybe not.
Yep, not quite what I meant. Because lightboard won't be updating them every year (because they can't afford to), they won't have a need to discount. Buyers might want to move on but until a good hollow board competitor emerges, it might be unique nature of buyer.
Post by: mr_proper on March 02, 2019, 04:00:01 AM
Lightcorp will launch pretty soon the LIGHTCORP GT 14x 21" as well as the Signature 2.0 14x 22" Light Board Corp
Yep. Bruno sent me a facebook friendship request after the review went up and I could see footage of him testing them. It's the wrong way in my view - they need a 26-28 width version.
Yes, a 25 or 26 width version of the GT in hollow construction could be a very nice board for me. But until it is time, I stay with my SIC RS 26 and 23.
I had the Signature and really like the hollow construction, the low weight and the feel. That I did not get along well with the shape is another story. But I still think the boards are great.
Post by: Area 10 on March 02, 2019, 04:16:30 AM
Post by: mr_proper on March 02, 2019, 04:46:48 AM
What does the RS do better than the Signature, Mr Proper?
The 26 RS is a lot more stable than the Signature and also fast. The 23 RS is tippy, similar to the 24.75 Signature, but it does not roll. So for me it is easier to handle. 2018 I paddled 1370 km and I think, about 900 of it was with the RS 26 and I enyoyed every km.
Signature: oh shit, boat waves
RS: cool, boat waves.
Post by: burchas on March 02, 2019, 05:01:25 AM
...In my experience, it was not over the top. That being said, I didn't know the Blackfish could build down that light.
Fair point. In that context you'd be right to put emphasis on that.
BTW, I've seen Blackfish as low as 17LB and the last SIC board I took for a spin
(Custom Bayonet 17'1"X25) was just over 20LB for reference hence my comment on custom RS.
You were right to call me out on that. As Area10 says, its durability that will really outshine the others. How robust can a foam core board be at that weight ?
My Blackfish was solid for a for a season until it took some sun exposure and went downhill after
that. Helicopter tape on the rails you can help with longevity when it's that light but yes, I would
opt for a construction like Nelo's for sure, not for that price though.
I did talk to SIC about doing a custom hollow RS and the bottom line was, they can do it.
For a comparable price point to the Nelo we had to crank out 5 board or so. If you have a
racing team, it's an option. Build quality could be specified so we are talking solidly built
boards at 20LB or under.
Post by: Area 10 on March 02, 2019, 05:07:15 AM
My 14x26 RS is so stable that Id like to get the 24.5. Do you think that youd get on with a board that was half-way between the 26 and 23 in terms of stability? Or would you still use the 26, when it came down to a free choice?
I think I might be fast (for me) on the Nelo for about half a mile. And then Id fall in, and it would be all over. In contrast, the thing that attracted me to the RS was that it was plug and play speed.
Post by: Area 10 on March 02, 2019, 05:09:50 AM
Ooh! Thats tempting - maybe a bunch of zoners should get together and make an order? :)...In my experience, it was not over the top. That being said, I didn't know the Blackfish could build down that light.
Fair point. In that context you'd be right to put emphasis on that.
BTW, I've seen Blackfish as low as 17LB and the last SIC board I took for a spin
(Custom Bayonet 17'1"X25) was just over 20LB for reference hence my comment on custom RS.
You were right to call me out on that. As Area10 says, its durability that will really outshine the others. How robust can a foam core board be at that weight ?
My Blackfish was solid for a for a season until it took some sun exposure and went downhill after
that. Helicopter tape on the rails you can help with longevity when it's that light but yes, I would
opt for a construction like Nelo's for sure, not for that price though.
I did talk to SIC about doing a custom hollow RS and the bottom line was, they can do it.
For a comparable price point to the Nelo we had to crank out 5 board or so. If you have a
racing team, it's an option. Build quality could be specified so we are talking solidly built
boards at 20LB or under.
Post by: mr_proper on March 02, 2019, 05:39:47 AM
Thanks v much for that RS/Signature comparison, Mr Proper. I suspect that your experiences would be the same as mine. Unless you are an elite athlete, stability IS speed (within reason, of course), and certainly is enjoyment as well.
My 14x26 RS is so stable that Id like to get the 24.5. Do you think that youd get on with a board that was half-way between the 26 and 23 in terms of stability? Or would you still use the 26, when it came down to a free choice?
I think I might be fast (for me) on the Nelo for about half a mile. And then Id fall in, and it would be all over. In contrast, the thing that attracted me to the RS was that it was plug and play speed.
your welcome.
For a single board solution, I would definitely take the 14x24.5. I was able to test the 24.5 and it was also stable, more than the 24.5 Allstar. For a race, my choice would be the 24.5, but for just paddling and have fun, the 26 is my prefered board. The 23 RS is for my wife. And for me, if the conditions are very flat and I know, I will have less waves from the side. So, if you are happy with the 26, I think there is no reason to change. Only, if you are bored about the 26 ;-)
Post by: burchas on March 02, 2019, 05:53:23 AM
Ooh! Thats tempting - maybe a bunch of zoners should get together and make an order? :)
The thought has crossed my mind but then I realized we have to take 10 racers and have them
agree on one standard ;)
Post by: Area 10 on March 02, 2019, 06:08:57 AM
Simple: 16x24 and everyone is happy :)Ooh! Thats tempting - maybe a bunch of zoners should get together and make an order? :)
The thought has crossed my mind but then I realized we have to take 10 racers and have them
agree on one standard ;)
Post by: burchas on March 02, 2019, 06:18:52 AM
Simple: 16x24 and everyone is happy :)Ooh! Thats tempting - maybe a bunch of zoners should get together and make an order? :)
The thought has crossed my mind but then I realized we have to take 10 racers and have them
agree on one standard ;)
You'd better hurry and arrange it since there are two of those sitting in Maui right now
waiting to be shipped, it would be the perfect timing have SIC create the mold out of one
of those before they go. You'll save a good amount of money.
Post by: Area 10 on March 02, 2019, 06:32:14 AM
Thanks again. Its not so much boredom as the pursuit of the best paddle stroke technique I can manage. Its so much easier to get a technically good stroke on a narrower board (assuming you can balance on it), and I find that even 1 narrower can make a difference. I suspect that I am like a lot of people who arent in the first flush of youth, which means that the sweet spot for optimising the balance/technique equation across various conditions is between 26 and 24, depending on the exact design of the board.Thanks v much for that RS/Signature comparison, Mr Proper. I suspect that your experiences would be the same as mine. Unless you are an elite athlete, stability IS speed (within reason, of course), and certainly is enjoyment as well.
My 14x26 RS is so stable that Id like to get the 24.5. Do you think that youd get on with a board that was half-way between the 26 and 23 in terms of stability? Or would you still use the 26, when it came down to a free choice?
I think I might be fast (for me) on the Nelo for about half a mile. And then Id fall in, and it would be all over. In contrast, the thing that attracted me to the RS was that it was plug and play speed.
your welcome.
For a single board solution, I would definitely take the 14x24.5. I was able to test the 24.5 and it was also stable, more than the 24.5 Allstar. For a race, my choice would be the 24.5, but for just paddling and have fun, the 26 is my prefered board. The 23 RS is for my wife. And for me, if the conditions are very flat and I know, I will have less waves from the side. So, if you are happy with the 26, I think there is no reason to change. Only, if you are bored about the 26 ;-)
Would the 24.5 make me faster? Probably not significantly. But then Im not a racer so it doesnt really matter. However in the endless pursuit of self-improvement, Id like to get new equipment if it helps me improve technique. Some people like to compete against other people. But I like to compete against myself. I probably dont have that many years left before it all starts to fall apart no matter how hard I try. So Im quite keen to do what I can to improve before I reach that point. The 14x26 RS has already helped me a lot, and it might be time to step it up.
The only problem is that the prices of new boards are totally crazy in the UK now, and it looks like they will skyrocket even further this year (because of the drop in the value of our currency due to the uncertainty created by Brexit, and the likely increase in import tariffs if we leave the EU customs union).
I would buy one of these Nelo boards. But I just dont think Id enjoy paddling it, and I suspect the twitchiness would hold me back rather than help me progress. Good technique and speed is so much about rhythm and consistency of stroke, and keeping the board on an even keel. Super-reactive boards are best left to those who have super-reactive bodies :)
Post by: Area 10 on March 02, 2019, 06:34:02 AM
Whaaat???!!! You are joking??! Thats a helluva coincidence. A 16x24 RS?? Really?Simple: 16x24 and everyone is happy :)Ooh! Thats tempting - maybe a bunch of zoners should get together and make an order? :)
The thought has crossed my mind but then I realized we have to take 10 racers and have them
agree on one standard ;)
You'd better hurry and arrange it since there are two of those sitting in Maui right now
waiting to be shipped, it would be the perfect timing have SIC create the mold out of one
of those before they go. You'll save a good amount of money.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 02, 2019, 06:39:27 AM
My 14x26 RS is so stable that Id like to get the 24.5. Do you think that youd get on with a board that was half-way between the 26 and 23 in terms of stability? Or would you still use the 26, when it came down to a free choice?
but for just paddling and have fun, the 26 is my prefered board.
Have any of you compared the Maliko 26" and the RS 26" on flat water and chop?
Does the RS feels nicer, easier, more efficient - maybe closer to a displacement nose rather than a planning nose - or there is really very little difference.
I am wondering it it would be worth having a RS 26" for those days where there is no chance of even a down-breezer so more like grinding around upwind.
As I am getting older and having a problem with one shoulder (tear in the bicipital tendons that does not go away) I am even considering replacing my Ace-GT with a lighter board for non-downwind conditions.
Post by: Area 10 on March 02, 2019, 06:51:28 AM
The 14x26 RS is more stable than the 14x26 Maliko, especially in cross-winds, and it goes better upwind and downwind when the water is mere ripples. The Maliko is much better in proper downwind conditions. Theres not a huge difference in flat water speed between the two, but for me, the RS has the edge partly because of the slight extra stability. Also, Watching me from a distance, an observer commented that they could hear me coming towards them on the Maliko long before they could when I was on the RS. This is because the RS nose is a little bit less splashy than the Maliko nose, and I think thats principally where the slight extra flat water speed comes from (plus the RS is lighter).
Id still like to have a 2018 Maliko though, and if I see a used one at a good price I might get it.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 02, 2019, 06:55:09 AM
Yes, I compared the 14x26 RS back-to-back with the Maliko 14x26. I have also paddled the 2017 Maliko 14x24 and the 2018 Maliko 14x28.
The 14x26 RS is more stable than the 14x26 Maliko, especially in cross-winds, and it goes better upwind and downwind when the water is mere ripples. The Maliko is much better in proper downwind conditions. Theres not a huge difference in flat water speed between the two, but for me, the RS has the edge partly because of the slight extra stability. Also, Watching me from a distance, an observer commented that they could hear me coming towards them on the Maliko long before they could when I was on the RS. This is because the RS nose is a little bit less splashy than the Maliko nose, and I think thats principally where the slight extra flat water speed comes from (plus the RS is lighter).
Thank you that confirms my gut feeling from watching videos and that would be a good complement to my Maliko.
Id still like to have a 2018 Maliko though, and if I see a used one at a good price I might get it.
Id still like to have a SIC RS though, and if I see a used one at a good price I might get it. :-)
Post by: burchas on March 02, 2019, 07:11:12 AM
Whaaat???!!! You are joking??! Thats a helluva coincidence. A 16x24 RS?? Really?Simple: 16x24 and everyone is happy :)Ooh! Thats tempting - maybe a bunch of zoners should get together and make an order? :)
The thought has crossed my mind but then I realized we have to take 10 racers and have them
agree on one standard ;)
You'd better hurry and arrange it since there are two of those sitting in Maui right now
waiting to be shipped, it would be the perfect timing have SIC create the mold out of one
of those before they go. You'll save a good amount of money.
Yup, just sitting in crate waiting for their rightful Floridian owner to come back from the
Bahamas in May to claim them. So you have some time to work with.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 02, 2019, 07:17:30 AM
Yup, just sitting in crate waiting for their rightful Floridian owner to come back from the
Bahamas in May to claim them. So you have some time to work with.
Just need a lot of these $$$$$ and then it is Heaven....
Post by: burchas on March 02, 2019, 07:26:12 AM
Yup, just sitting in crate waiting for their rightful Floridian owner to come back from the
Bahamas in May to claim them. So you have some time to work with.
Just need a lot of these $$$$$ and then it is Heaven....
Or you could go for the one they used to make the mold out of, I'm sure easy will take
pennies on the dollar just so he can have one of those hollow boards.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 02, 2019, 07:29:44 AM
Yup, just sitting in crate waiting for their rightful Floridian owner to come back from the
Bahamas in May to claim them. So you have some time to work with.
Just need a lot of these $$$$$ and then it is Heaven....
Or you could go for the one they used to make the mold out of, I'm sure easy will take
pennies on the dollar just so he can have one of those hollow boards.
Is the one for Florida a hollow one. I had assume from the post that it was a custom foam one?
Post by: burchas on March 02, 2019, 07:33:49 AM
Is the one for Florida a hollow one. I had assume from the post that it was a custom foam one?
It's foam alright but you can't be too picky when you have limited amount of dollars to spend.
I gave you an idea to get RS 16x24 for pennies on the dollar, now you want it hollow as well?
You have to work with me here Luc ;D
Post by: Luc Benac on March 02, 2019, 07:59:40 AM
Is the one for Florida a hollow one. I had assume from the post that it was a custom foam one?
It's foam alright but you can't be too picky when you have limited amount of dollars to spend.
I gave you an idea to get RS 16x24 for pennies on the dollar, now you want it hollow as well?
You have to work with me here Luc ;D
No I was referring to your comment on pennies for the dollar - they made a prototype and then the board for Florida - or it they just want to get rid of a board?
I am quite happy with foam and anything under 29 lbs.
BTW, is there a contact there?
Post by: Area 10 on March 02, 2019, 08:05:41 AM
Post by: mr_proper on March 02, 2019, 09:20:10 AM
Its not so much boredom as the pursuit of the best paddle stroke technique I can manage. Its so much easier to get a technically good stroke on a narrower board (assuming you can balance on it), and I find that even 1 narrower can make a difference. I suspect that I am like a lot of people who arent in the first flush of youth, which means that the sweet spot for optimising the balance/technique equation across various conditions is between 26 and 24, depending on the exact design of the board.
There you are right. In this case, 24.5 could be a good choice.
I'm 196 cm tall and so for me it's not so important, although I feel the difference between 26 and 23 while paddling.
A much smaller paddle buddy is thinking about exchanging the 24.75 Signature for the 23 for exactly the same reason as you.
Post by: burchas on March 02, 2019, 01:05:46 PM
Is the one for Florida a hollow one. I had assume from the post that it was a custom foam one?
It's foam alright but you can't be too picky when you have limited amount of dollars to spend.
I gave you an idea to get RS 16x24 for pennies on the dollar, now you want it hollow as well?
You have to work with me here Luc ;D
No I was referring to your comment on pennies for the dollar - they made a prototype and then the board for Florida - or it they just want to get rid of a board?
I am quite happy with foam and anything under 29 lbs.
BTW, is there a contact there?
This is all hypothetical Luc. There are 2 finished board sitting in crates waiting to be shipped.
That's as far as reality goes.
Hypothetically, if Area 10 wants to get serious about it and open a new thread to recruit a
group for the endeavor, maybe we can persuade easy to use one of the boards to make the
mold.
The incentive for him would be a hollow board which he could partially finance by giving
up the board used to make the mold on good discount for one lucky group member (you).
All you have to do right now is work on Area 10, I think he is one board short for matching
the amount of paddles he has ;D
Post by: Luc Benac on March 02, 2019, 01:55:05 PM
This is all hypothetical Luc. There are 2 finished board sitting in crates waiting to be shipped.
That's as far as reality goes.
Hypothetically, if Area 10 wants to get serious about it and open a new thread to recruit a
group for the endeavor, maybe we can persuade easy to use one of the boards to make the
mold.
The incentive for him would be a hollow board which he could partially finance by giving
up the board used to make the mold on good discount for one lucky group member (you).
All you have to do right now is work on Area 10, I think he is one board short for matching
the amount of paddles he has ;D
Got it :-) I am totally open to the positive used to make the mold as cent of the dollar....
No need to paint it or fancy it, fin box, leash plug, handle that's it. Just a layer of tainted gelcoat and send it over.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/188897557913706/permalink/1472793306190785/?sale_post_id=1472793306190785 (https://www.facebook.com/groups/188897557913706/permalink/1472793306190785/?sale_post_id=1472793306190785)
Post by: ukgm on March 03, 2019, 12:06:57 AM
Anyone can get in a garage somewhere and throw a vacuum set-up together to create the board but that wont get the best result. I suspect its for this reason that Lightboardcorp handed over manufacture to Nelo rather than get someone cheaper or local to do it or do it themselves. Im certainly not convinced that other brands such as SIC would have that in place.
Post by: Area 10 on March 03, 2019, 02:48:14 AM
Post by: GlideMarko on March 04, 2019, 03:56:28 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pHlFYu57dQ
Post by: Area 10 on March 04, 2019, 06:09:06 AM
Dr Bryce Dyer takes a scientific look at the 'Hollow' Light Board Corp GT 14' Race boardWhat we need to know is whether after trying it he bought one himself (and paid full price) :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pHlFYu57dQ
Btw, what was scientific about this review? (Which is not to say that I didnt think it was good: I did.)
Post by: ukgm on March 04, 2019, 06:19:42 AM
Dr Bryce Dyer takes a scientific look at the 'Hollow' Light Board Corp GT 14' Race board1) Btw, what was scientific about this review? (Which is not to say that I didnt think it was good: I did.)
2) What we need to know is whether after trying it he bought one himself (and paid full price) :)
1) That wasn't my call but its a typical mistake of wider media when someone see's someone has a PhD is that they therefore assume that everything they do is 'scientific' (in fact I explained in the video that I didn't do the testing I normally would do due to the winter weather). It wasn't scientific and is entirely anecdotal.
2) Have I bought one ? - no (I'm currently buying a new surfski for the upcoming race season). Would I hypothetically ? - definitely - I sold my remaining race boards after this test as I was so hacked of with such poorly made boards from other brands and didn't want to use them anymore. This all being said, the only SUP race I am doing this year (our upcoming sprint national champs if my shoulder heals in time), I will be using this board to race on.... and I had the choice of a few of the best widely known ones. Draw your own conclusions on that one.
Post by: Area 10 on March 04, 2019, 07:56:37 AM
Post by: ukgm on March 04, 2019, 10:02:34 AM
Would you use it for a race other than a 200m flatwater sprint, though? Battle of the Thames on a windy day? A beach race at Bournemouth? Its apparently an all-waters board, no?
Yes I would....... but to be honest, I think I'd need another couple of months of regular paddling on it to be competent enough to do so. However, I would have answered the question the same in response to me using my recent Allstar 23.5 too. 23.5 is my very limit in a race.
Post by: Area 10 on March 04, 2019, 10:16:18 AM
In the meantime, I guess Ill go custom again... not as light as the hollow boards but my UL has proven crazy durable, and was cheaper than the Nelo.
Post by: ukgm on March 05, 2019, 12:03:37 AM
Ok well they could hardly bring out first a megabucks board that is only a tourer. So it was nevitable that their first offerings were going to be aimed at elite paddlers. Ill have to wait until they have saturated the market for such boards (which will only take a dozen or so in Europe maybe :) ) and then they start making detuned versions boards for plebs like me, who have more money than ability.
In the meantime, I guess Ill go custom again... not as light as the hollow boards but my UL has proven crazy durable, and was cheaper than the Nelo.
The 21 inch wide version coming though - that's insanely narrow. It'll be so light that it may well be too light and the agility you'll need for something with so little inertia is going to make the equivalent Starboard Sprint feel like a barge. If Bruno thinks he can handle that, fair play to him.
Post by: burchas on March 05, 2019, 06:26:04 AM
The 21 inch wide version coming though - that's insanely narrow. It'll be so light that it may well be too light and the agility you'll need for something with so little inertia is going to make the equivalent Starboard Sprint feel like a barge. If Bruno thinks he can handle that, fair play to him.
We'll see if they make any changes to the shape to promote stability. We've already seen top
paddlers having hard time finding their rhythm on a 21.5" in open water conditions.
Post by: Area 10 on March 05, 2019, 07:22:46 AM
Thats only because we havent yet got a generation who fully grew up with SUP. There are a few coming through now, but really, probably if you werent racing on narrow boards by the time you were about 10 years old (and preferably much earlier than that), you dont have any future at the top level of SUP racing, within 2-3 years. Board widths should go sub-20 very soon indeed, and probably the height of top racers will decrease.The 21 inch wide version coming though - that's insanely narrow. It'll be so light that it may well be too light and the agility you'll need for something with so little inertia is going to make the equivalent Starboard Sprint feel like a barge. If Bruno thinks he can handle that, fair play to him.
We'll see if they make any changes to the shape to promote stability. We've already seen top
paddlers having hard time finding their rhythm on a 21.5" in open water conditions.
Gotta clear out the oldsters, finally. Weve been hanging around like embarrassing uncles and aunts at a teenagers party for too long anyway. Jim Terrells predictions about the future of racing from several years ago are almost inevitably coming true. The next generation of board reviews will be presented by teenagers, because no-one ukgms age will be able to stand on them, so wont be able to offer an opinion :)
Racing is a waste of time anyway. The future for SUP events IMO is all about the life experience and the social and environmental connections they will afford. Most people these days have quite enough competition in their working lives or at school, without seeking yet more competition in leisure time. Collaboration and shared experiences rather than the narcissism of competition.
Post by: ukgm on March 05, 2019, 11:34:49 AM
1) Thats only because we havent yet got a generation who fully grew up with SUP. There are a few coming through now, but really, probably if you werent racing on narrow boards by the time you were about 10 years old (and preferably much earlier than that), you dont have any future at the top level of SUP racing, within 2-3 years. Board widths should go sub-20 very soon indeed, and probably the height of top racers will decrease.
2) Jim Terrells predictions about the future of racing from several years ago are almost inevitably coming true.
3) The next generation of board reviews will be presented by teenagers, because no-one ukgms age will be able to stand on them, so wont be able to offer an opinion :)
4) Racing is a waste of time anyway. The future for SUP events IMO is all about the life experience and the social and environmental connections they will afford. Most people these days have quite enough competition in their working lives or at school, without seeking yet more competition in leisure time.
5) Collaboration and shared experiences rather than the narcissism of competition.
1) I agree.
2) I agreed with him then and I agree with you now.
3) .... that made me roar with laughter.
4) Not in my opinion. I believe that it will just follow the route that running, multisport and cycling has done whereby racing exists in its own universe but numbers will be far higher in participation style events (think parkrun, cycle sportif's, etc). As I said to you earlier though, from my perspective elite racing is not growing at all but it is in the participation classes.
5) Calling competition narcissistic is just cynicism. There are a variety of reasons for racing.
Post by: JEG on March 05, 2019, 12:04:38 PM
;)
Post by: Area 10 on March 05, 2019, 12:10:35 PM
Here are a couple of fun summaries of some of it:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/narcissism-boosts-athletes-performance-study-2030095
https://www.ultius.com/ultius-blog/entry/narcissistic-personality-disorder-in-athletes.html
But being a successful competitor yourself you were probably too busy looking in the mirror to have noticed this work :) :) ;)
Post by: Jacko on March 06, 2019, 03:05:00 PM
Early testing has been pretty positive and anyone who is serious about races like Molokai should be looking hard at what they paddle!
Post by: Luc Benac on March 06, 2019, 03:20:26 PM
MMMM Hollow!! I know another company doing hollow boards and already has a dugout unlimited that has been getting tested for a while now and have just made a 14 dugout Hollow to now really start putting them to the test.
Early testing has been pretty positive and anyone who is serious about races like Molokai should be looking hard at what they paddle!
Curious on what is the benefit of a very light board for down-winding, specially in strong winds.
I am a beginner for sure but during teh few years I have been down-winding (generally in light to under 40 knots conditions) I have found teh following advantage to a bit of weight in a downwind board:
*increase inertia that help keep the board going
*easier with the right nose to punch through the bumps in the front if needed
*slightly higher stability
This is again from the point of view of an average Joe paddler not a top level racer of course.
I could imagine some advantage of a very light board, in marginal conditions, maybe to accelerate with less effort to get into a bump?
I had a DW board at 22 lbs and of course some heavier up to 28 lbs and did not really find that the lighter board had an advantage.
Post by: Jacko on March 06, 2019, 03:50:52 PM
*All the weight in the standing area.
*Having very little weight in the nose area makes the boards super responsive.
*The feel of how the board handles the bumps is unlike nothing else and very hard to describe.
We are not talking 6 or 7kg boards these boards will range between 10 to 13kg so they still have some weight and if anything hollow could have a far bigger advantage in the ocean than the flat.
This is only the start for us and if the market is there we will invest in flatwater boards as well but as it has been talked about here before making only one or two is not very cost efficient.
More than happy though if a bunch of people come to me and want a certain kind of board hollow and see ways to make it work. It's only early for us but on the boards we have made i love the feeling.
Post by: burchas on March 06, 2019, 04:33:59 PM
MMMM Hollow!! I know another company doing hollow boards and already has a dugout unlimited...
Don't be cheap on details, it's all about sharing here ;D
Curious on what is the benefit of a very light board for down-winding, specially in strong winds...
To me it seems like a very personal preference but also about skill and finiteness level.
I had runs on unlimited boards ranging from 20LB to 36LB. For me the magic is somewhere
in the middle around 26-27. That said I could immediately recognize the benefits of the lighter
boards, You can make connections you wouldn't be able otherwise due-to ease of turning and
better to acceleration. For my skill level though, lighter boards present some control issues that I
didn't experience with the heavier boards.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 06, 2019, 04:34:25 PM
Advantages for the hollow DW? here is just a few.
*All the weight in the standing area.
*Having very little weight in the nose area makes the boards super responsive.
*The feel of how the board handles the bumps is unlike nothing else and very hard to describe.
We are not talking 6 or 7kg boards these boards will range between 10 to 13kg so they still have some weight and if anything hollow could have a far bigger advantage in the ocean than the flat.
This is only the start for us and if the market is there we will invest in flatwater boards as well but as it has been talked about here before making only one or two is not very cost efficient.
More than happy though if a bunch of people come to me and want a certain kind of board hollow and see ways to make it work. It's only early for us but on the boards we have made i love the feeling.
You could just send a downwind prototype to David and Peter in Squamish/Vancouver. :-) or bring one for the next Canadian Downwind Challenge this summer. There will be more wind then last time....
Would be delighted to take it on an outflow to experience what you just commented on.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 06, 2019, 04:36:39 PM
Advantages for the hollow DW? here is just a few.
*All the weight in the standing area.
*Having very little weight in the nose area makes the boards super responsive.
*The feel of how the board handles the bumps is unlike nothing else and very hard to describe.
We are not talking 6 or 7kg boards these boards will range between 10 to 13kg so they still have some weight and if anything hollow could have a far bigger advantage in the ocean than the flat.
This is only the start for us and if the market is there we will invest in flatwater boards as well but as it has been talked about here before making only one or two is not very cost efficient.
More than happy though if a bunch of people come to me and want a certain kind of board hollow and see ways to make it work. It's only early for us but on the boards we have made i love the feeling.
You could just send a downwind prototype to David and Peter in Squamish/Vancouver. :-)
Would be delighted to take it on an outflow to experience what you just commented on.
Does not matter if the nose is green or purple/pink :-)
Post by: Luc Benac on March 06, 2019, 04:41:09 PM
MMMM Hollow!! I know another company doing hollow boards and already has a dugout unlimited...
Don't be cheap on details, it's all about sharing here ;DCurious on what is the benefit of a very light board for down-winding, specially in strong winds...
To me it seems like a very personal preference but also about skill and finiteness level.
I had runs on unlimited boards ranging from 20LB to 36LB. For me the magic is somewhere
in the middle around 26-27. That said I could immediately recognize the benefits of the lighter
boards, You can make connections you wouldn't be able otherwise due-to ease of turning and
better to acceleration. For my skill level though, lighter boards present some control issues that I
didn't experience with the heavier boards.
Maybe the sweet spot would be a wider hollow board around 26" or even 27" for a flat deck.
I can see the advantage of lighter for a dugout and even more fro a dugout UL and I understand better what Jacko is talking about now.
My Ace-GT is lighter than many deep dugout UL at 31 lbs but you cannot move it around like you would the Naish Maliko of course.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 06, 2019, 04:42:58 PM
For me the magic is somewhere
in the middle around 26-27.
For my skill level though, lighter boards present some control issues that I
didn't experience with the heavier boards.
Same here. You and me both.
Post by: Area 10 on March 06, 2019, 04:46:47 PM
https://www.sicmauicustom.com/collections/hollow-molded
Btw there are some truly beautiful custom boards in the SIC gallery on that website.
Post by: Jacko on March 06, 2019, 05:27:54 PM
Advantages for the hollow DW? here is just a few.
*All the weight in the standing area.
*Having very little weight in the nose area makes the boards super responsive.
*The feel of how the board handles the bumps is unlike nothing else and very hard to describe.
We are not talking 6 or 7kg boards these boards will range between 10 to 13kg so they still have some weight and if anything hollow could have a far bigger advantage in the ocean than the flat.
This is only the start for us and if the market is there we will invest in flatwater boards as well but as it has been talked about here before making only one or two is not very cost efficient.
More than happy though if a bunch of people come to me and want a certain kind of board hollow and see ways to make it work. It's only early for us but on the boards we have made i love the feeling.
You could just send a downwind prototype to David and Peter in Squamish/Vancouver. :-)
Would be delighted to take it on an outflow to experience what you just commented on.
Does not matter if the nose is green or purple/pink :-)
Bugger i was about to send one over but the ones i have are red and blue!! oh well maybe next time.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 06, 2019, 05:31:22 PM
Does not matter if the nose is green or purple/pink :-)
Bugger i was about to send one over but the ones i have are red and blue!! oh well maybe next time.
Just take your sunglasses of - color is relative - just send it over. We have had some good outflow most of the winter....
Post by: JEG on March 06, 2019, 06:08:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pHlFYu57dQ
Post by: Area 10 on March 06, 2019, 10:03:17 PM
on the hollow subject :)You clearly havent read page 47 of this thread...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pHlFYu57dQ
It looks like the hollow construction of this board (or rather, the light weight that results from it) would be one reason why many people would buy this board. And also a reason why many wouldnt (including me). It is often said that perfection is the enemy of the good. Many of us older guys who have the disposable income to be able to afford a board like this, can only aim for good, realistically.
Post by: photofr on March 06, 2019, 11:40:31 PM
Rest assure: your Nelo hollow board will float, even if it fills with water.
It uses a foam core sandwich construction (closed cell sandwich) which has nothing to do with styrofoam in terms of longevity.
@Area: You don't need to wait 50 seasons to buy a hollow board at a discounted price. Contact me at ludovic@photofr.com if you want to purchase one right NOW :)
--------
I think we will be seeing a lot more hollow boards in the future, but it will take someone with tons of experience in the foam-sandwich-hollow-construction to make a light and STRONG board like the Nelo boards.
My signature board is still racking tons of mileage all over France right now, and all throughout Winter. It's still super light, and it still looks like new (every time I clean it).
Post by: Area 10 on March 07, 2019, 12:28:56 AM
Let me know when Nelo finally makes a hollow board that I would enjoy paddling. In the meantime, Im happy to leave this to the lucky few elite athletes who have big disposal incomes, and their teenage kids.
Sorry to be so cynical. But over the last 12 years of SUP racing, how often have we seen brands produce boards that were fast, but so technical to use for the average paddler that they died a death within a season or two and then clogged up the classified ads at bargain prices for the next few years?
For instance, remember the hollow monocoque Naish javelin?
http://www.supracer.com/naish-javelin-mc14-revealed/
Or the hollow carbon Surftech Bark Phantom?
https://youtu.be/v4rN9j1usZU
Both these uber-expensive hollow boards proved too specialised to make much of an impact.
Additionally, SIC have been making hollow SUPs forever, and yet given the choice many people actually prefer the foam core ones.
So please excuse my sense of here we go again. Maybe this Nelo will be the one that brings durable and light SUPs to the masses. Or maybe they will just disappear within a season or two, to be revived as a footnote to the history of SUP on an Internet forum 5-10 years from now.
Post by: photofr on March 07, 2019, 02:57:40 AM
I don't think that you are cynical, but I think "we get it" and the following boards are probably not meant for you (or at least do not meet your particular needs.)
- the Signature 1.0, 14x23
- the Signature 1.0, 14x24.75
- the Signature 2.0, 14x23
- the Signature 2.0, 14x24.75
- the GT 14x23.5
In fact, YES, we get it: They may be too technical for you, or you may not want to put in the time to feel at ease on them.
I can only assure you of one thing: Humans adapt very VERY well - just give it time. Here's a pretty good example, amongst many others: my 17'6" x 23" felt rather instable when I purchased it in 2014. In fact, the board wasn't originally purchased to go into the Ocean. Well, less than six months after purchasing it and paddling a whole bunch on it, I found myself in the middle of a channel, more than 10km away from shore - with side shop. A few months after that, I was doing 40+ km Downwind runs with it... so as you can see, we all adapt.
More real life experience and feedback:
My Signature 2.0 (in 14x23) also took some time to for me to adapt. To this day though, my board is like a dream come true. Its advantages do not go unnoticed:
- IT'S FREEKY LIGHT (long walks with it are no longer considered torture, and board handling out of the water is just way easier).
- NO PRESSURE DINGS (All my boards - all 11 of them from 3 different manufacturers - have had pressure dings. Not the Nelo)
- FEEL SOLID (Hands down, Nelo provides a solid construction, designed to last.)
- STILL LOOKS NEW (A simple wipe down and it still shines like new - and it's now one year old).
- IT'S FAST (I mentioned that one before, but I now have even more data to compare to: My fastest times are still on the Nelo board).
- IT ACCELERATES UNLIKE ANYTHING OUT THERE (Too much fun on bumps, on sprints, on "just playing around").
It's also very versatile: surfs well (so light, and plenty of rocker), great flat water speed, super easy remounts (way easier than with an Ace), and I feel like I can pretty much take it any where (and have... and all 4 corners of France - and heck, I am still venturing with the same board).
... but again: I think we get it - this board doesn't match your particular needs.
Post by: Area 10 on March 07, 2019, 03:26:59 AM
I was making the point that hollow boards are not new to the SUP market. Many people (perhaps even ukgm) have not been in SUP long enough to remember those. These boards were touted as unsinkable and superlight. But they did not sell. I dont think you cant sell boards on construction alone, and if the light weight brings as many downsides as upsides for 99% of paddlers then that might explain why hollow construction never really took off.
You dont race, and you are a featherweight, so you arent the typical demographic for this board either. But well see. If they brought out a 26 wide version and I could demo it in real world conditions then I would.
But maybe the Nelo team riders will win everything in Europe and then everyone will be on one next year. I kinda hope that does happen because I am far from impressed with the effect on the maket that Starboard have had, and the, IMO, poor quality of construction of their race boards.
Post by: photofr on March 07, 2019, 04:00:57 AM
Anyway, my recollection is that there were only two manufacturers of hollow boards.
One was geared towards Downwind (SIC) and the other all around sluggish by today's standards THINK).
There are always so many "variables" and "factors" in life, but I can tell you beyond any doubt as to why hollow boards haven't sold in the past:
- They were heavy (take a look at the THINK).
- They were too expensive (take a look at the price of a hollow UL board from SIC).
- The market wasn't ready (we probably didn't even know that Styrofoam was so bad for the environment, and didn't last).
After all, show me one board that is 1/2 way competitive in a race environment, previous to Nelo.
How I see it, currently:
23" - produced
23.5" - produced
24.75" - produced
Soon available:
21 / 22" - on the way
Next?
26" - will be inevitable
28" - would also make sense
In case you haven't noticed, we are in 2019 - AKA the end of the Styrofoam era.
Styrofoam is banned in several states (USA) - no more fast food plates or cup will be made out of styro. Next on the list will be coolers, and boards shouldn't be that far behind (IMO).
ADAPTING
I have been teaching sports nearly all my life. With certainty, I can tell you that people adapt. I have had 77 year-olds get onto a surfski and say: "it's impossible...." to later see them compete actively on a surfski - with beautiful technique. Everyone adapts, but said person must first be willing. My advice: don't let a skinny board scare you that much.
MARKET
Starboard needs competition, heck, a little competition is good for everyone involved!
I don't think that Nelo will take over the market, but I do believe that it will open a new way of thinking, and new ways of producing equipment that will last more than a single season. After all, the pricing is right up there with Starboard boards - even though everyone would still make money if they all lowered their board prices to about 2400 euros. That's economics though, and doesn't reflect too much on this new SUP concept of making a board LIGHT, SUPER STRONG, SUPER DURABLE, and VERY COMPETITIVE in current races.
Post by: ukgm on March 07, 2019, 04:59:22 AM
It is interesting that they say that the foam boards are lighter than the hollow ones (which in turn are lighter than Asia made ones). So it looks like if you really care about weight above all else, maybe go foam custom. So the main advantages of a hollow board as far as SIC are concerned are to do with durability not weight.
I agree with their list, bar one - A hollow board will be lighter than a foam core board. If they can't achieve that, they're not building it right.
Post by: ukgm on March 07, 2019, 05:02:00 AM
So please excuse my sense of here we go again. Maybe this Nelo will be the one that brings durable and light SUPs to the masses. Or maybe they will just disappear within a season or two, to be revived as a footnote to the history of SUP on an Internet forum 5-10 years from now.
I agree with you. I raced the hollow Farr designed Horizon 14 board at one of our biggest races a few years back as a guest team rider for them. It was a brilliant board but their marketing sucked and it faded away. What Lighsignature may have got right was recruiting Bruno and then building him the board he clearly wants. That'll keep him around for a few years and keep them in the spotlight.
Post by: ukgm on March 07, 2019, 05:07:57 AM
I am a beginner for sure but during the few years I have been down-winding (generally in light to under 40 knots conditions) I have found the following advantage to a bit of weight in a downwind board:
1) increase inertia that help keep the board going
2) easier with the right nose to punch through the bumps in the front if needed
3) slightly higher stability
4) I had a DW board at 22 lbs and of course some heavier up to 28 lbs and did not really find that the lighter board had an advantage.
1) That is true but if surfski's are anything to go by, some paddlers will also value the ability to accelerate to catch a bump being of greater value to them. Bearing in mind that a SUP board has the relative hydrodynamics of a brick, I would go for weight reduction over inertia (as the latter can be mitigated with a change in stroke rate/technique).
2) Agree on that one. If you have the mass, you'll be more resistant to stopping.
3) This is also true. I'm on the verge of buying a new elite level surfski but going for the heavier & cheaper layup to ease my transition for the same reasons.
4) Published science on kayaks and rowing shells would certainly agree with you. I think a lot of this depends on your stroke style, board's drag and stroke rate you use. However, SUP boards really struggle with drag which would suggest the rules suggested for kayaks and shells may not apply in the same way.
Post by: burchas on March 07, 2019, 05:21:27 AM
I am not trying to sell YOU my board...
...They were too expensive (take a look at the price of a hollow UL board from SIC).
...even though everyone would still make money if they all lowered their board prices to about 2400 euros...
But you are in fact trying to sell your board even though it's the greatest thing since sliced bread
so excuse me if I don't take your word for it.
A Custom hollow 14" from SIC will actually cost less than the Nelo, the fact Nelo priced it
as they did is because they probably know their economics and realized it will be they only
way they can finance the project. (and pay Bruno)
Post by: burchas on March 07, 2019, 05:21:36 AM
It is interesting that they say that the foam boards are lighter than the hollow ones (which in turn are lighter than Asia made ones). So it looks like if you really care about weight above all else, maybe go foam custom. So the main advantages of a hollow board as far as SIC are concerned are to do with durability not weight.
I agree with their list, bar one - A hollow board will be lighter than a foam core board. If they can't achieve that, they're not building it right.
Judging by the other hollow water crafts I've tested I definitely agree we're getting the short end
of the shaft. In fact we're getting shafted ;D (actually >:( )
Post by: photofr on March 07, 2019, 05:44:11 AM
I am not trying to sell YOU my board...
...They were too expensive (take a look at the price of a hollow UL board from SIC).
...even though everyone would still make money if they all lowered their board prices to about 2400 euros...
But you are in fact trying to sell your board even though it's the greatest thing since sliced bread
so excuse me if I don't take your word for it.
A Custom hollow 14" from SIC will actually cost less than the Nelo, the fact Nelo priced it
as they did is because they probably know their economics and realized it will be they only
way they can finance the project.
I am selling my board-but it's a question of me needing money to finance other projects - which have nothing to do with SUP.
I am selling my board, but that's just money - and cannot and will never replace honor. I am accountable for what I have said, and what I am saying. I don't try to hide behind a psudo. I'd be a complete idiot for giving false information, and then attaching my name and honor to it.
But hey, if you have a question for me, don't hesitate.
Go to www.photofr.com and pick up my cell phone there...
Or simply shoot me an email: ludovic@photofr.com
The fact that Nelo priced their boards as they did is because:
- The designer is Lightcorp (they need to get paid)
- The builder is Nelo (they also need to get paid)
Noticed the market for SUP lately?
Here are a few facts:
- Nelo builds a surfski with several expansive moving parts (rudder, sturdy lines, foot board and pedals) - 11.5kg @ about 2500 euros.
- Nelo builds a SUP with no moving parts what so ever @ about 3500 euros.
- Starboard builds a SUP with no moving parts what so ever, and not a hollow construction @ about 3500 euros.
Now tell me there isn't something off about the entire SUP industry... go ahead, but get ready to justify it too :)
BACK TO REGULAR PROGRAMMING
Yes, a custom SIC may cost you less - but a) it probably won't be as strong AND as light and b) it doesn't have to go through a middle man.
Post by: burchas on March 07, 2019, 05:59:29 AM
I am selling my board, but that's just money - and cannot and will never replace honor.
Noticed the market for SUP lately?
Here are a few facts:
- Nelo builds a surfski with several expansive moving parts (rudder, sturdy lines, foot board and pedals) - 11.5kg @ about 2500 euros.
- Nelo builds a SUP with no moving parts what so ever @ about 3500 euros.
- Starboard builds a SUP with no moving parts what so ever, and not a hollow construction @ about 3500 euros.
Now tell me there isn't something off about the entire SUP industry... go ahead, but get ready to justify it too :)
BACK TO REGULAR PROGRAMMING
Yes, a custom SIC may cost you less - but a) it probably won't be as strong AND as light and b) it doesn't have to go through a middle man.
Fare enough.
As for the pricing, if you read my previous comment you'd know I agree or to quote
my self "we're getting shafted".
As for the SIC hollow boards, don't be so quick to assume, I did once drop my Standamaran
from 3ft on concrete, the board sprung back, did not ding. I wouldn't try it again but I was
very surprised to say the least and it's the light construction.
Post by: ukgm on March 07, 2019, 06:21:26 AM
Noticed the market for SUP lately?
Here are a few facts:
- Nelo builds a surfski with several expansive moving parts (rudder, sturdy lines, foot board and pedals) - 11.5kg @ about 2500 euros.
- Nelo builds a SUP with no moving parts what so ever @ about 3500 euros.
- Starboard builds a SUP with no moving parts what so ever, and not a hollow construction @ about 3500 euros.
Now tell me there isn't something off about the entire SUP industry... go ahead, but get ready to justify it too :)
You may notice in the video that I discuss costs towards the end of that video about the market as a whole and I've subsequently found out that some people in the industry were not happy with what I was inferring. However, you are right - I can get a better built ski with more complexity for 30% less than many top brand race boards. Whether that's right or not I didn't actually say - I said consumers may be on the verge of getting priced out of the market. I think that's a fair point without saying or not whether I feel they are overcharging.
Post by: photofr on March 07, 2019, 06:48:33 AM
@GM
Yes, I think that we are all on the same page: we are getting a bit shafted, but to be fair, Nelo isnt the cause.
Building a hollow board is more costly, and so is building it in Europe - so everything is relative. In fact, I am surprised (from a marketing stand point of view) that a Nelo board doesnt cost more than a Starboard board out of Asia.
What I am most surprised about though, is that Nelo didnt come up with their own shape. After all, they have just invested on a brand new and huge facility to build anything and everything... they are very able... they can make new molds in record time... and they have tons of knowledge on craft concepts...
- so why a partner / an additional middle man?
Post by: Area 10 on March 07, 2019, 06:55:36 AM
Post by: photofr on March 07, 2019, 06:57:44 AM
I am selling my board, but that's just money - and cannot and will never replace honor.
Noticed the market for SUP lately?
Here are a few facts:
- Nelo builds a surfski with several expansive moving parts (rudder, sturdy lines, foot board and pedals) - 11.5kg @ about 2500 euros.
- Nelo builds a SUP with no moving parts what so ever @ about 3500 euros.
- Starboard builds a SUP with no moving parts what so ever, and not a hollow construction @ about 3500 euros.
Now tell me there isn't something off about the entire SUP industry... go ahead, but get ready to justify it too :)
BACK TO REGULAR PROGRAMMING
Yes, a custom SIC may cost you less - but a) it probably won't be as strong AND as light and b) it doesn't have to go through a middle man.
Fare enough.
As for the pricing, if you read my previous comment you'd know I agree or to quote
my self "we're getting shafted".
As for the SIC hollow boards, don't be so quick to assume, I did once drop my Standamaran
from 3ft on concrete, the board sprung back, did not ding. I wouldn't try it again but I was
very surprised to say the least and it's the light construction.
I stand corrected regarding SICs construction; they may very well be in part with the top 3 surfski manufacturers in the World regarding their construction methodes. $5000+ for a catamaran, add $200 or so for custom colors... well, I should have been more precise when comparing.
I should have said: "As light, as strong AND reasonnably priced"
Post by: ukgm on March 07, 2019, 07:06:33 AM
Why? Because its damned hard to design a SUP that will do well all the various things that the users want it to do. So if someone else is willing to take or share the risk that would seem sensible to me.
...... and just because Nelo can build boats, doesn't mean they can design boards. This is the mistake that their main kayak competitor Plastex has just made. They've just designed their first SUP (hollow again) and to be honest, it looks like a design from around 5 years ago that their competitors have long since learned lessons their from.
Post by: mr_proper on March 07, 2019, 07:25:39 AM
In fact, YES, we get it: They may be too technical for you, or you may not want to put in the time to feel at ease on them.
But why spend time when you can have fun on a different board with zero effort?
Post by: Luc Benac on March 07, 2019, 08:42:54 AM
In fact, YES, we get it: They may be too technical for you, or you may not want to put in the time to feel at ease on them.
But why spend time when you can have fun on a different board with zero effort?
Funny I was thinking exactly the same. I discovered that after several years of bravely trying to adjust to difficult race boards. The revelation came to me after I got a Bark Vapor. A board that is unobtrusive by nature and let you focus on the paddling itself. I then refined this with the Maliko which has very similar qualities but a little bit better performance.
Post by: burchas on March 07, 2019, 09:02:41 AM
I should have said: "As light, as strong AND reasonnably priced"
Wrong again, none are reasonably priced. But if you want to compare Apples to Apples, SIC is still going to be cheaper. Even with custom paint job (in contrast to NELOs offering of custom color).
And if you are a repeat customer, prices get much better. Dont know if Nelo can match that.
Post by: Area 10 on March 07, 2019, 09:07:41 AM
Yep, thats it exactly.In fact, YES, we get it: They may be too technical for you, or you may not want to put in the time to feel at ease on them.
But why spend time when you can have fun on a different board with zero effort?
Like most SUPers, Im not interested in racing to get on the podium (even within my age group), Ive accepted that to get there Id need to sacrifice too much in the rest of my life to achieve it. So instead Im looking for a board that will flatter me, and work with me. At my age and fitness level there is a limit to what improvements in balance and agility can be achieved (certainly without extraordinary effort, anyway). So Im not going to spend hours and hours (probably) fruitlessly struggling to try to get to grips with a board that will only improve my speed by 0.5% even if I did manage to cope with it. Life is too short.
But Im sure the board will be perfect for Bruno.
Post by: burchas on March 07, 2019, 09:23:28 AM
But Im sure the board will be perfect for Bruno.
Theyre certainly banking on that.
Post by: ukgm on March 07, 2019, 10:04:32 AM
I then refined this with the Maliko which has very similar qualities but a little bit better performance.
I'd agree with this. I can say this even since having left the Naish UK team at the end of 2017 that the Maliko 2017 was a great board for what it was. If you don't race, I felt it was just the right balance for a regular recreational paddler between being fast, versatile and generally reassuringly predictable to paddle. For my money, if you want an allwater board and don't want a barge, I'd actually pick that over an Allstar.
Post by: ukgm on March 07, 2019, 10:06:44 AM
I should have said: "As light, as strong AND reasonnably priced"
Wrong again, none are reasonably priced. But if you want to compare Apples to Apples, SIC is still going to be cheaper. Even with custom paint job (in contrast to NELOs offering of custom color).
And if you are a repeat customer, prices get much better. Dont know if Nelo can match that.
I guess then it comes down to how you value the board design over another or the brand over another. Having been exposed to a wide range of paddling types, I know what Nelo's are like and the dealer support in the UK is excellent. SIC may well be a better choice in other countries.
Post by: ukgm on March 07, 2019, 10:08:04 AM
But Im sure the board will be perfect for Bruno.
Theyre certainly banking on that.
The key will be what Bruno can win on it. If he wins something at the ISA worlds and the 11 cities, it may well have been a decent investment compared to their previous levels of growth.
Post by: burchas on March 07, 2019, 10:30:44 AM
I should have said: "As light, as strong AND reasonnably priced"
Wrong again, none are reasonably priced. But if you want to compare Apples to Apples, SIC is still going to be cheaper. Even with custom paint job (in contrast to NELOs offering of custom color).
And if you are a repeat customer, prices get much better. Dont know if Nelo can match that.
I guess then it comes down to how you value the board design over another or the brand over another. Having been exposed to a wide range of paddling types, I know what Nelo's are like and the dealer support in the UK is excellent. SIC may well be a better choice in other countries.
My comment is not about putting value to a design over another. Simply who is more affordable. As it stands right now SIC is more affordable. If the RS was
Offered as hollow then we could start debating designs value.
From everything Ive seen, NELO seems to have an edge in construction capabilities. If theyll ever come up with an appealing design for my needs
I would probably be tempted.
Post by: ukgm on March 07, 2019, 12:10:19 PM
I should have said: "As light, as strong AND reasonnably priced"
Wrong again, none are reasonably priced. But if you want to compare Apples to Apples, SIC is still going to be cheaper. Even with custom paint job (in contrast to NELOs offering of custom color).
And if you are a repeat customer, prices get much better. Dont know if Nelo can match that.
I guess then it comes down to how you value the board design over another or the brand over another. Having been exposed to a wide range of paddling types, I know what Nelo's are like and the dealer support in the UK is excellent. SIC may well be a better choice in other countries.
My comment is not about putting value to a design over another. Simply who is more affordable. As it stands right now SIC is more affordable. If the RS was
Offered as hollow then we could start debating designs value.
From everything Ive seen, NELO seems to have an edge in construction capabilities. If theyll ever come up with an appealing design for my needs
I would probably be tempted.
I spoke with them about a more 'market friendly' size last week and they didn't seem that fussed at the time. They are very focused on the performance sizes at the moment. I find that surprising as I can't see there being the sales there to underpin the development and mould costs. Mind you, Nelo themselves have generally always been generally elite-centred by nature.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 07, 2019, 12:58:11 PM
For my money, if you want an allwater board and don't want a barge, I'd actually pick that over an Allstar.
Any day, any time, with my eyes closed :-)
Post by: JEG on March 07, 2019, 05:43:59 PM
I should have said: "As light, as strong AND reasonnably priced"
Wrong again, none are reasonably priced. But if you want to compare Apples to Apples, SIC is still going to be cheaper. Even with custom paint job (in contrast to NELOs offering of custom color).
And if you are a repeat customer, prices get much better. Dont know if Nelo can match that.
I guess then it comes down to how you value the board design over another or the brand over another. Having been exposed to a wide range of paddling types, I know what Nelo's are like and the dealer support in the UK is excellent. SIC may well be a better choice in other countries.
My comment is not about putting value to a design over another. Simply who is more affordable. As it stands right now SIC is more affordable. If the RS was
Offered as hollow then we could start debating designs value.
From everything Ive seen, NELO seems to have an edge in construction capabilities. If theyll ever come up with an appealing design for my needs
I would probably be tempted.
I spoke with them about a more 'market friendly' size last week and they didn't seem that fussed at the time. They are very focused on the performance sizes at the moment. I find that surprising as I can't see there being the sales there to underpin the development and mould costs. Mind you, Nelo themselves have generally always been generally elite-centred by nature.
maybe their thinking is if they can win races with Bruno then the market will follow and release the 25,26,27 & 28 wide boards?
Post by: burchas on March 07, 2019, 05:53:03 PM
I should have said: "As light, as strong AND reasonnably priced"
Wrong again, none are reasonably priced. But if you want to compare Apples to Apples, SIC is still going to be cheaper. Even with custom paint job (in contrast to NELOs offering of custom color).
And if you are a repeat customer, prices get much better. Dont know if Nelo can match that.
I guess then it comes down to how you value the board design over another or the brand over another. Having been exposed to a wide range of paddling types, I know what Nelo's are like and the dealer support in the UK is excellent. SIC may well be a better choice in other countries.
My comment is not about putting value to a design over another. Simply who is more affordable. As it stands right now SIC is more affordable. If the RS was
Offered as hollow then we could start debating designs value.
From everything Ive seen, NELO seems to have an edge in construction capabilities. If theyll ever come up with an appealing design for my needs
I would probably be tempted.
I spoke with them about a more 'market friendly' size last week and they didn't seem that fussed at the time. They are very focused on the performance sizes at the moment. I find that surprising as I can't see there being the sales there to underpin the development and mould costs. Mind you, Nelo themselves have generally always been generally elite-centred by nature.
maybe their thinking is if they can win races with Bruno then the market will follow and release the 25,26,27 & 28 wide boards?
I was thinking the same thing. Bruno with the new 21" wide board is their coming out party,
should it prove successful, demand and brand recognition will probably follow.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 07, 2019, 06:01:47 PM
maybe their thinking is if they can win races with Bruno then the market will follow and release the 25,26,27 & 28 wide boards?I was thinking the same thing. Bruno with the new 21" wide board is their coming out party,
should it prove successful, demand and brand recognition will probably follow.
Interesting. Just curious how many people would buy a bord - specially a new board - just based on the result of one elite racer.
Maybe if people see a lot of racers with a specific board a la Starboard (AllStar and Sprint), I can see that as some kind of normality or repeat message effect.
Post by: burchas on March 07, 2019, 06:28:23 PM
maybe their thinking is if they can win races with Bruno then the market will follow and release the 25,26,27 & 28 wide boards?I was thinking the same thing. Bruno with the new 21" wide board is their coming out party,
should it prove successful, demand and brand recognition will probably follow.
Interesting. Just curious how many people would buy a bord - specially a new board - just based on the result of one elite racer.
Maybe if people see a lot of racers with a specific board a la Starboard (AllStar and Sprint), I can see that as some kind of normality or repeat message effect.
If that one racer should clean up the all the major races it wouldn't be long before other racers
follow suit, once that happens... well, you how it works.
Post by: Area 10 on March 07, 2019, 11:14:12 PM
Yes, especially since the Maliko is cheaper (in Europe) yet better made (the 2018 model) than the All Star.For my money, if you want an allwater board and don't want a barge, I'd actually pick that over an Allstar.
Any day, any time, with my eyes closed :-)
...would it be rude for me to say that Id prefer a Maliko to this Nelo board? Maybe best of all would be a Maliko constructed like the Nelo.
In this way, it seems to me that the main selling point for the Nelo is the method of construction, not the design of the board. Would this board be as effective as ukgm claims if it were the same weight as eg. a Maliko or All Star?
As Ive linked above, some SUP brands have already experimented with hollow construction. So maybe if the Nelo is successful, all that will happen is that the other brands will switch to similarly expensive construction methods, and everything will continue as it was before - except now all the boards are more expensive. Would that be progress?
Post by: ukgm on March 08, 2019, 12:01:46 AM
1)Yes, especially since the Maliko is cheaper (in Europe) yet better made (the 2018 model) than the All Star.
2) In this way, it seems to me that the main selling point for the Nelo is the method of construction, not the design of the board.
3) Would this board be as effective as ukgm claims if it were the same weight as eg. a Maliko or All Star?
4) As Ive linked above, some SUP brands have already experimented with hollow construction. So maybe if the Nelo is successful, all that will happen is that the other brands will switch to similarly expensive construction methods, and everything will continue as it was before - except now all the boards are more expensive. Would that be progress?
1) The 2018 Allstar's problem (and I can say this now as I've just sold mine), was that Starboard had gone with the paint that was integrated into the boards top coat. This saved a small amount of weight (and was addressing some of their eco-orientated beliefs) but has turned the board into a chip nightmare. It doesn't dent any easier than the previous models but the paint chips off like you wouldn't believe. I sold it while I could still break even from what I paid for it (ex team issue).
2) I have emphasised the build quality and weight as they are its main USP over other boards, not that its other aspects (such as design) were not good. The cockpit stance width was a really nice aspect for example.
3) I have got test data for the board too but having done this in winter, the quality of the data wasn't to my standards and I didn't share it publicly as a result. I can say that the natural convergence of board design is going to make most comparisons a wash really (let alone the confounding aspect of its weight reduction which can't be seperated out in the test results). Bottom line ? - I can't give you an answer but I thought it was on par design-wise for the kind of paddling I do.
4) What will happen is that the big brands would drop the price of the current construction a touch, charge more than they do now for the hollow boards and it won't be a win for us. I see this happen in other sports technology products all the time as a strategy.
Post by: ukgm on March 08, 2019, 12:04:08 AM
maybe their thinking is if they can win races with Bruno then the market will follow and release the 25,26,27 & 28 wide boards?I was thinking the same thing. Bruno with the new 21" wide board is their coming out party,
should it prove successful, demand and brand recognition will probably follow.
Interesting. Just curious how many people would buy a bord - specially a new board - just based on the result of one elite racer.
Maybe if people see a lot of racers with a specific board a la Starboard (AllStar and Sprint), I can see that as some kind of normality or repeat message effect.
If that one racer should clean up the all the major races it wouldn't be long before other racers
follow suit, once that happens... well, you how it works.
I suspect it won't be a major shift in results. However, purely from a marketing point of view some brands may well want to cover the tack if it does even as well as he normally does.
Post by: photofr on March 08, 2019, 01:17:53 AM
If you are currently doing well and super comfortable on a say 26 board, and you want to go a little faster, it would make sense to make a small leap to a 25" board - any board that suits your needs.
No one is asking or telling you that you should go from a 26" board to a 21". However, if your are seeking faster speeds, for personal reasons and or for racing, the first logical thing will be to work on technique, and immediately there after work on getting a more advanced board.
Perhaps we should remember that as long as you make minor changes in stability, you will adapt (minor is the keyword though). Alternatively, and really the worst thing is that you would be falling in the water (god forbids), but aside from your ego, youll be fine.
Racers need technique, but theres a real emphasis on stability for them... as long as they want to go faster. Racers must also keep in mind that they will adapt.
To many people, what has really worked is:
- working on technique
- getting a smaller surface for their paddle
- getting a typier craft / more performance
- adapting by getting to know their craft in various conditions
- never be afraid of falling into the water - in fact, practice often
Where does Nelo fit in all of this?
They are adding a healthy dose of competition. It may very well be that once you see a different built quality from Nelo, customers may just demand changes to the absurdy of Styrofoam constructions. Your favorite company/shape may prove to go hollow in the next couple of years.
Bashing Nelo for currently shaming your favorite brand is cool, but makes no sense what so ever... especially when you may just gain from Nelos current efforts in the very near future.
In the meantime, Nelo choices are somewhat limited... even if there are currently 3 sizes available, and many more on the way.
Post by: Area 10 on March 08, 2019, 01:20:38 AM
Post by: photofr on March 08, 2019, 01:29:55 AM
One of the reasons why SUPs have mostly been made of foam rather than hollow moulded for the last 12 or so years is that the yearly design change would make the moulded approach prohibitively expensive. And this annual design change has been driven in large part by the changing nature and format of races: different water conditions, distances, technical aspects etc. If most racing had been 5k and conducted on boating lakes for example, we would by now pretty much have one design that everyone uses. Designs would have converged. With the increasing influence of the ICF and the change of focus from coastal to inland paddling, together with aspirations for Olympics, I can envisage that SUP racing in 10 years is mainly flat water sprints or short distance conducted on rowing lakes/rivers. Hollow boards will make a lot of sense then because youll spend a load of cash but then keep the board for much longer. No more ukgm updating his board every year, and Starboard producing foam boards that fall apart while just sitting on a roof rack (in my experience only, no doubt :) ) That might be better for the environment in the long run than any initiative by board brands at the moment?
I dont really with all of this, mainly because of what happened in the surfski world. We made our skis out of clark foam for testing purposes, but nearly every single ski came out of a mold since the mid 80s.
Meanwhile, we do not seek flat water racing... not when you are on a ski. Surfskis seek open water, using a hollow construction that has proven 3 to 5 times more durable than conventional chinese foam boards.
The SUP industry is like the shampoo industry:
Use twice as much by "wash your hair, rinse, REPEAT
(Probably a lot to do with the windsurfing era of changing designs every year)
Post by: Area 10 on March 08, 2019, 01:49:41 AM
And since you have a very small frame, you probably find it hard to appreciate the degree to which stability IS speed for most paddlers, since virtually any production board will feel stable to you.
Elite paddlers are by their nature unusual. Theres not a lot the average person can conclude from their performances in terms of personal relevance. But one thing I can say with all certainty is that if you want to improve your speeds, concentrating on fitness and training will yield massively more returns than dropping one inch in board width. Indeed, Ive seen many people drop width and actually go slower as a result. Indeed, thats true of me: Im actually faster on a SIC X14 14x28.5 than I was on my Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder 14x23 or Starboard Ace 14x25! The get a more technical board and youll go faster mantra is of dubious value for the average paddler, and is mainly intended by board brands to get us to buy new stuff. Most people commit to the expense of a new board as one indicator for their simultaneous commitment to more determined training. So its very hard to disentangle what improvement is due to the board and what is due to training.
As someone who has owned more boards than anyone else I know, I can tell you that changing boards makes disappointingly little difference to your speed, once you have reached a plateau. What a new board can do for you however is to make achieving your best more comfortable and consistent.
Post by: photofr on March 08, 2019, 01:58:46 AM
I am the last person who would tell anyone that going from a 28" to a 23" is a good idea.
In fact, here is a simple copy-paste (notice the keyword? Notice the order of importance?)
Perhaps we should remember that as long as you make minor changes in stability, you will adapt (minor is the keyword though). Alternatively, and really the worst thing is that you would be falling in the water (god forbids), but aside from your ego, youll be fine.
Racers need technique, but theres a real emphasis on stability for them... as long as they want to go faster. Racers must also keep in mind that they will adapt.
To many people, what has really worked is:
- working on technique
- getting a smaller surface for their paddle
- getting a typier craft / more performance
- adapting by getting to know their craft in various conditions
- never be afraid of falling into the water - in fact, practice often
Post by: Area 10 on March 08, 2019, 02:41:55 AM
getting a typier craft / more performance
Post by: ukgm on March 08, 2019, 03:23:46 AM
1) One of the reasons why SUPs have mostly been made of foam rather than hollow moulded for the last 12 or so years is that the yearly design change would make the moulded approach prohibitively expensive.
2) And this annual design change has been driven in large part by the changing nature and format of races: different water conditions, distances, technical aspects etc.
3) If most racing had been 5k and conducted on boating lakes for example, we would by now pretty much have one design that everyone uses. Designs would have converged.
4) With the increasing influence of the ICF and the change of focus from coastal to inland paddling, together with aspirations for Olympics, I can envisage that SUP racing in 10 years is mainly flat water sprints or short distance conducted on rowing lakes/rivers.
5) Hollow boards will make a lot of sense then because youll spend a load of cash but then keep the board for much longer. No more ukgm updating his board every year
1) I think the main reason is actually a familiarity with foam materials by manufacturers (for the other watersports that they were doing prior to SUP).
2) The annual change probably wasn't the main need but its certainly been a happy bi-product for them. In many other sports, it was just a colourways change. The funny thing is, if you look at surf-ski's, they run on a 4-5 year cycle and it actually allows them to produce performance enhancing designs each time. Alternatively, most of us know that SUP on the other hand is an annual emperors new clothes thing. There have been some leaps forward but SUP should really be on a 2-3 year development cycle to really see value.
3) I agree but I think that's only because the kayak manufacturers would have got involved sooner. Racing on flatwater doesn't specifically warrant hollow construction per se'.
4) For the sports sake, I hope not. I suspect elite racing will shrink further though.
5) Absolutely true. However as far SUP racing goes, I think I'm done there anyway. Ironically, it was using the GT and looking back at my old gear that nailed the coffin for me. I'll always train on a race board but I've decided to move on to working on my ocean ski racing as frankly I enjoy it more at the moment and its been an itch I haven't made time to scratch since my surf-lifesaving days in the mid 90's. Next year I'm going for a national team place in the dragonboat squad.
Post by: burchas on March 08, 2019, 04:33:01 AM
1) One of the reasons why SUPs have mostly been made of foam rather than hollow moulded for the last 12 or so years is that the yearly design change would make the moulded approach prohibitively expensive.
1) I think the main reason is actually a familiarity with foam materials by manufacturers (for the other watersports that they were doing prior to SUP).
We probably have the surf industry to thank for in that regard. The resurrection of this sport
and the companies that followed suit were deeply rooted in surf where a 5 board quiver will
go unnoticed.
Not surprisingly, a lot of the once young surfers, are now middle-age+ suppers but are still
buying into that mentality, only now they have money to spend. And we all know that a new
board has the promise of youth :D
That's why I like the move by Nelo, maybe now it will be different as the hype of the industry
gone away and the cycle will slow down considerably. Naish and Bark were ahead of their time
but other players were eager to cash-in on the hype.
In that regard, Naish and Bark are still in that mind set: Maliko will keep its shape for the 4th
year in a row (including the 2020 model) They could have easily gone with hollow.
On the other hand the surf side is still a wild west 8)
Post by: ukgm on March 08, 2019, 05:07:10 AM
Maliko will keep its shape for the 4th
year in a row (including the 2020 model) They could have easily gone with hollow.
If you take into account that Naish killed off the Javelin entirely 2 years ago, I suspect that all that they'd realised is that the raceboard market isn't what it cracked up to and its not worth a lot of resources being devoted to it for now.
Post by: Area 10 on March 09, 2019, 02:23:40 AM
Well, Kai and Caspar are ocean and sprint specialists, so that might have something to do with it. Originally the Javelin was more of an ocean board than a flat water one, so when the Maliko came along and proved so popular it was always going to be tricky for an overwhelmingly ocean-based company to find a place for it. The Maliko, as the name suggests, was originally intended as a downwind board (it was originally the Javelin Maliko) because the missile-like Javelin had become a bit of a handful DW (albeit fast of you could cope with it). But the Maliko proved more versatile than that, and as one of the few low volume raceboards amongst a rapid outbreak of clogs and fat-lipped voluminous boards, it found its niche with the public as well as the Naish team-riders (especially the smaller ones).Maliko will keep its shape for the 4th
year in a row (including the 2020 model) They could have easily gone with hollow.
If you take into account that Naish killed off the Javelin entirely 2 years ago, I suspect that all that they'd realised is that the raceboard market isn't what it cracked up to and its not worth a lot of resources being devoted to it for now.
Post by: burchas on March 09, 2019, 06:00:31 AM
Well, Kai and Caspar are ocean and sprint specialists, so that might have something to do with it. Originally the Javelin was more of an ocean board than a flat water one, so when the Maliko came along and proved so popular it was always going to be tricky for an overwhelmingly ocean-based company to find a place for it. The Maliko, as the name suggests, was originally intended as a downwind board (it was originally the Javelin Maliko) because the missile-like Javelin had become a bit of a handful DW (albeit fast of you could cope with it). But the Maliko proved more versatile than that, and as one of the few low volume raceboards amongst a rapid outbreak of clogs and fat-lipped voluminous boards, it found its niche with the public as well as the Naish team-riders (especially the smaller ones).Maliko will keep its shape for the 4th
year in a row (including the 2020 model) They could have easily gone with hollow.
If you take into account that Naish killed off the Javelin entirely 2 years ago, I suspect that all that they'd realised is that the raceboard market isn't what it cracked up to and its not worth a lot of resources being devoted to it for now.
Now that you mentioned dugouts, Naish finally gave-in and will introduce their own for 2020. Didn't see it yet, one can only wonder...
Post by: ukgm on March 09, 2019, 12:15:56 PM
Well, Kai and Caspar are ocean and sprint specialists, so that might have something to do with it. Originally the Javelin was more of an ocean board than a flat water one, so when the Maliko came along and proved so popular it was always going to be tricky for an overwhelmingly ocean-based company to find a place for it. The Maliko, as the name suggests, was originally intended as a downwind board (it was originally the Javelin Maliko) because the missile-like Javelin had become a bit of a handful DW (albeit fast of you could cope with it). But the Maliko proved more versatile than that, and as one of the few low volume raceboards amongst a rapid outbreak of clogs and fat-lipped voluminous boards, it found its niche with the public as well as the Naish team-riders (especially the smaller ones).Maliko will keep its shape for the 4th
year in a row (including the 2020 model) They could have easily gone with hollow.
If you take into account that Naish killed off the Javelin entirely 2 years ago, I suspect that all that they'd realised is that the raceboard market isn't what it cracked up to and its not worth a lot of resources being devoted to it for now.
It was always that way though with their riders (and they could have created a clearer sprint board replacement as Starboard had done). I was told though that they felt they could use the same board competitively at most events they did and sales of the sprint jav were not good (shifting them off our team was a nightmare).
I think Naish (as they often do) had their finger on the right pulse.
Post by: Area 10 on March 09, 2019, 01:27:28 PM
Post by: burchas on March 09, 2019, 01:43:50 PM
The problem with the Javelins was historically that they were tippy. Even the big reverse bow-type one that ploughed water was strangely tippy given its massive bulk. I demoed the 14x28 one back in the day and was amazed that such a behemoth wasnt more stable. It was less stable than the 14x28 Maliko is today IMO despite much bigger volume. The early Javs were very fast but notoriously tippy, and the term Javelin became almost a byword for a fast-but-awkward board. Which was an own goal because the very first Javelins (the UL Glide 17x26.75 was rebadged the Javelin in its second or third year I think) were pretty stable. In the search for extra speed they smoothed off the rails and removed the concave from the original Iggy Jav and made it too much of a handful. So I think the Maliko was partly an attempt to get rid of the Javs too tippy reputation. But instead it has just killed the Javelin name altogether... for the moment. To a certain extent I suspect that the position in the marketplace for a fast-but-technical ocean board might now have been taken by the SIC Bayonet. And some of the ocean brands may not bother with flat water boards much longer since their distribution networks probably dont really reach those markets. It might be an opportunity for Nelo for sure, as long as the word Nelo doesnt also become a byword for fast but too tippy. It can happen very easily, and really hit sales.
I'm afraid that ship has sailed. Any one who read this thread already associates Nelo with tippy unless you happen to be 130lb ;)
Post by: Area 10 on March 09, 2019, 03:37:46 PM
Dont these look GREAT now? From 5 years ago...
https://youtu.be/v36BWp8rzKA
https://youtu.be/hM6U6GojogA
Very fast, very light, very versatile. But by the standards of the time, tippy. So they never really sold that many. Id try one if they brought out a board like that now though! Bet it is faster than the Maliko... if you have the skills...
And the hollow version was tough and very light, and not fantastically more expensive than the ordinary carbon version. But it got a rep as a tippy board and that did for it, as Starboard wisely went for the stable-for-its-width approach, having been stung by criticism of a couple of its fast-but-tippy boards that remained on the shelves long after the season was over.
I was going to buy a SIC Bayonet. But the few reviews there are tend to mention polite versions of its like standing on a log. So I cancelled my order... wish theyd sunk the deck just a little.
But I think weve already established that Nelo arent going for volume sales. So best of luck to them. Im bored with seeing all those dirty blue chipped Starboards on the race starting lines anyway. And when the pros fall in it makes me feel better about myself :)
Post by: ukgm on March 10, 2019, 01:06:04 AM
The problem with the Javelins was historically that they were tippy. Even the big reverse bow-type one that ploughed water was strangely tippy given its massive bulk. I demoed the 14x28 one back in the day and was amazed that such a behemoth wasnt more stable. It was less stable than the 14x28 Maliko is today IMO despite much bigger volume. The early Javs were very fast but notoriously tippy, and the term Javelin became almost a byword for a fast-but-awkward board. Which was an own goal because the very first Javelins (the UL Glide 17x26.75 was rebadged the Javelin in its second or third year I think) were pretty stable. In the search for extra speed they smoothed off the rails and removed the concave from the original Iggy Jav and made it too much of a handful. So I think the Maliko was partly an attempt to get rid of the Javs too tippy reputation. But instead it has just killed the Javelin name altogether... for the moment. To a certain extent I suspect that the position in the marketplace for a fast-but-technical ocean board might now have been taken by the SIC Bayonet. And some of the ocean brands may not bother with flat water boards much longer since their distribution networks probably dont really reach those markets. It might be an opportunity for Nelo for sure, as long as the word Nelo doesnt also become a byword for fast but too tippy. It can happen very easily, and really hit sales.
I remember testing both 2017 models in late 2016 as I had to choose one or the other. I felt the 2017 Javelin wasn't too bad at all for stability. There wasn't huge amounts in it between them (not enough for me to worry). However, everyone on the UK team went for the Maliko. Mainly as the terms of our team deals meant we had to personally sell the boards on at the end of each season before we'd be issued a new one and we knew that flooding the secondhand market with flatwater boards meant that would not end well for the riders. A wise move as it turned out as the model was cancelled a year later and the Maliko's remained generally easy to move on.
Post by: ukgm on March 10, 2019, 01:08:57 AM
The problem with the Javelins was historically that they were tippy. Even the big reverse bow-type one that ploughed water was strangely tippy given its massive bulk. I demoed the 14x28 one back in the day and was amazed that such a behemoth wasnt more stable. It was less stable than the 14x28 Maliko is today IMO despite much bigger volume. The early Javs were very fast but notoriously tippy, and the term Javelin became almost a byword for a fast-but-awkward board. Which was an own goal because the very first Javelins (the UL Glide 17x26.75 was rebadged the Javelin in its second or third year I think) were pretty stable. In the search for extra speed they smoothed off the rails and removed the concave from the original Iggy Jav and made it too much of a handful. So I think the Maliko was partly an attempt to get rid of the Javs too tippy reputation. But instead it has just killed the Javelin name altogether... for the moment. To a certain extent I suspect that the position in the marketplace for a fast-but-technical ocean board might now have been taken by the SIC Bayonet. And some of the ocean brands may not bother with flat water boards much longer since their distribution networks probably dont really reach those markets. It might be an opportunity for Nelo for sure, as long as the word Nelo doesnt also become a byword for fast but too tippy. It can happen very easily, and really hit sales.
I'm afraid that ship has sailed. Any one who read this thread already associates Nelo with tippy unless you happen to be 130lb ;)
I don't think that is fair and it's not true. It's an assumption when you consider most people in the thread haven't paddled one. I can only comment on the GT but its 'reactive' not 'tippy'. I'm going to have a quick go on the 24.75 signature in 3 weeks time while i'm at a race. I'll report back on that one.
Post by: Area 10 on March 10, 2019, 01:41:55 AM
Post by: burchas on March 10, 2019, 09:46:57 AM
I don't think that is fair and it's not true.
I believe it is a fair assessment. I've been on this thread since the very beginning and that's the impression I got.
We're not just talking about the GT now, this is not where the thread started. I've tested and owned few tippy
boards as narrow as 18" so I think I know how to spot a tippy board when I see one.
Post by: ukgm on March 10, 2019, 10:57:17 AM
I don't think that is fair and it's not true.
I believe it is a fair assessment. I've been on this thread since the very beginning and that's the impression I got.
We're not just talking about the GT now, this is not where the thread started. I've tested and owned few tippy
boards as narrow as 18" so I think I know how to spot a tippy board when I see one.
How many of the light signature boards have you paddled so far ?
Post by: burchas on March 10, 2019, 11:28:06 AM
I don't think that is fair and it's not true.
I believe it is a fair assessment. I've been on this thread since the very beginning and that's the impression I got.
We're not just talking about the GT now, this is not where the thread started. I've tested and owned few tippy
boards as narrow as 18" so I think I know how to spot a tippy board when I see one.
How many of the light signature boards have you paddled so far ?
None. That's not the point though. I was referring to the impression I got from this thread about the Nelo.
You're actually biased in that regard having riding the board for a while and getting use to it. I got use to tippy
boards as well and only realized I'm not in good position to judge after letting a fellow paddler/racer try the board
and getting it back after one minute because it was too much to handle.
When you read something like this from an owner:
The 26 RS is a lot more stable than the Signature and also fast. The 23 RS is tippy, similar to the 24.75 Signature, but it does not roll. So for me it is easier to handle. 2018 I paddled 1370 km and I think, about 900 of it was with the RS 26 and I enyoyed every km.
Signature: oh shit, boat waves
RS: cool, boat waves.
It tells you a thing or two as well. Add to that the video Light posted of all four board with team riders on them on flat water and you can clearly see some struggle moments in simple wakes. That's how I got the impression.
Post by: Area 10 on March 10, 2019, 11:39:29 AM
Im an old git though and so my proprioceptive abilities are weak: my brain is trying to sift through a lot of white noise being fed it by my joints and limbs, and then any signals it sends out to the muscles etc get partially corrupted on the way and then not enacted very well because of wear and tear in the joints, tendons, ligaments etc. So, my knackered old physiology deals badly with trembliness, quite often sending out signals for compensatory movements that are far too extreme, creating a big wobble out of a little tremble. The end result: exhaustion. Not the boards fault. No doubt if I deliberately tipped the board to one side it would resist roll just as much as other boards. But for an old geezer, tippiness can translate to falling in nevertheless. But ukgm is a fit and younger chappie so his perspective is probably a lot different.
And yes, the RS is wonderfully relaxing for its width :)
Post by: burchas on March 10, 2019, 12:20:54 PM
...In the videos of the Nelo boards being paddled the thing that struck me was how much side-to-side (aka roll) micro-movements there were...
The thing that struck me was how 2 of their team riders could not handle the board on pure flat water losing balance on simple wakes and on
simple buoy turn.
Now lets put them in open water with some good tasty side chop, it would make a good instructional video on how to fall from
a dugout without cracking your shin because if I'm to judge by this video, they had a lot of practice.
Post by: Area 10 on March 10, 2019, 12:39:56 PM
But as long as Bruno does ok with it in the 11 Cities race, thats all that matters really. Right?
Post by: burchas on March 10, 2019, 12:47:05 PM
But as long as Bruno does ok with it in the 11 Cities race, thats all that matters really. Right?
I believe I can do ok on this board, Bruno on the other hand is going to kick-ass on it so yes, thats all that matters at the end of the day.
Post by: ukgm on March 10, 2019, 03:01:47 PM
Maybe we should use the word trembly instead? In the videos of the Nelo boards being paddled the thing that struck me was how much side-to-side (aka roll) micro-movements there were. No doubt you have to learn to ignore these trembles, which might be related to the light weight, whereas tippiness is related more to the rail shapes, bottom shapes and width.
Im an old git though and so my proprioceptive abilities are weak: my brain is trying to sift through a lot of white noise being fed it by my joints and limbs, and then any signals it sends out to the muscles etc get partially corrupted on the way and then not enacted very well because of wear and tear in the joints, tendons, ligaments etc. So, my knackered old physiology deals badly with trembliness, quite often sending out signals for compensatory movements that are far too extreme, creating a big wobble out of a little tremble. The end result: exhaustion. Not the boards fault. No doubt if I deliberately tipped the board to one side it would resist roll just as much as other boards. But for an old geezer, tippiness can translate to falling in nevertheless. But ukgm is a fit and younger chappie so his perspective is probably a lot different.
And yes, the RS is wonderfully relaxing for its width :)
This is exactly it. I agree with your thoughts on this. Ignore the trembles - theyre not going to throw you off. You think they will because thats what years of using heavier boards tells you but the secondary stability is high on the GT. This is the learning curve, I mention a lot. Its the need to separate the effects of inertia from those of stability.
Post by: ukgm on March 10, 2019, 03:04:15 PM
...In the videos of the Nelo boards being paddled the thing that struck me was how much side-to-side (aka roll) micro-movements there were...
The thing that struck me was how 2 of their team riders could not handle the board on pure flat water losing balance on simple wakes and on
simple buoy turn.
Now lets put them in open water with some good tasty side chop, it would make a good instructional video on how to fall from
a dugout without cracking your shin because if I'm to judge by this video, they had a lot of practice.
I suspect the GT is going to eventually eclipse the signature. Particularly with the narrower widths of the GT on the way.
Post by: ukgm on March 10, 2019, 03:06:18 PM
Post by: burchas on March 10, 2019, 03:27:16 PM
...In the videos of the Nelo boards being paddled the thing that struck me was how much side-to-side (aka roll) micro-movements there were...
The thing that struck me was how 2 of their team riders could not handle the board on pure flat water losing balance on simple wakes and on
simple buoy turn.
Now lets put them in open water with some good tasty side chop, it would make a good instructional video on how to fall from
a dugout without cracking your shin because if I'm to judge by this video, they had a lot of practice.
I suspect the GT is going to eventually eclipse the signature. Particularly with the narrower widths of the GT on the way.
IMO it would have made much more sense if they'd introduced the GT first. It looks a lot more versatile than the signature and much more suitable
for all around racing. First impressions are crucial and a tippy board like the signature doesn't make for a good first impression unless you launched
it on the 11 cities with Bruno on it.
Post by: photofr on March 10, 2019, 11:38:47 PM
Ah yes...all those days spent nursing a sore shin from catching it on the narrow sidewall when falling during downwinding my Starboard Ace 14x25 in 25+ knots... and then struggling to get back into the damn clog back over those narrow sidewalls in heavy seas... I remember them well. Happy days... not!! I used to call that board The UTB (Ugly Torture Board). Sharp sidewalls on a cockpit are the devils work in heavy seas. In fact they can be downright dangerous in high winds.
But as long as Bruno does ok with it in the 11 Cities race, thats all that matters really. Right?
This is a bit like 'dj-vu' within the surfski World, and here's a somewhat typical scenario I have faced from students in the past:
Paddlers get a different surfski, and certain paddlers still do not know (and worst, do not want to learn) how to get back into their craft.
Believe me when I say: "If it takes you more than 5 seconds to get back into your surfski or SUP board, you should be seeking alternative ways for getting back "aboard"." At the very least, you'll want to learn HOW TO GET BACK IN, in a hurry.
STRUGGLING
Struggling to get back onto your board is unacceptable for any paddler's level.
OPEN WATER
Here's food for thoughts...
In the 14' range, let's remember that dugout boards like the Ace have made some amazing crossings, great podiums, and fantastic records on Downwind paddling (e.g. Molokai Channel, M2M). If dugout boards were so bad for Open Water, I doubt seriously they would be amongst the best in DW.
Post by: photofr on March 10, 2019, 11:47:24 PM
I don't think that is fair and it's not true.
I believe it is a fair assessment. I've been on this thread since the very beginning and that's the impression I got.
We're not just talking about the GT now, this is not where the thread started. I've tested and owned few tippy
boards as narrow as 18" so I think I know how to spot a tippy board when I see one.
That's anything but a fair statement: How in the World can you attest that a board is tippy when you haven't been on one?
ELITE BOARDS
Similar to alpine skis, you can own an amazing race ski, heck, even the top three, and that doesn't mean much until you can totally master them. Anyway, explain to us how owning a few tippy boards will make you more competent at spotting a tippy board?
Post by: photofr on March 11, 2019, 12:10:51 AM
I don't think that is fair and it's not true.
I believe it is a fair assessment. I've been on this thread since the very beginning and that's the impression I got.
We're not just talking about the GT now, this is not where the thread started. I've tested and owned few tippy
boards as narrow as 18" so I think I know how to spot a tippy board when I see one.
How many of the light signature boards have you paddled so far ?
None. That's not the point though. I was referring to the impression I got from this thread about the Nelo.
When you read something like this from an owner:The 26 RS is a lot more stable than the Signature and also fast. The 23 RS is tippy, similar to the 24.75 Signature, but it does not roll. So for me it is easier to handle. 2018 I paddled 1370 km and I think, about 900 of it was with the RS 26 and I enyoyed every km.
Signature: oh shit, boat waves
RS: cool, boat waves.
It tells you a thing or two as well. Add to that the video Light posted of all four board with team riders on them on flat water and you can clearly see some struggle moments in simple wakes. That's how I got the impression.
WHAT IS THE SIGNATURE AIMED AT
After paddling the Signature 2.0 for longer than most ever have, I can say with certainty that the Signature isn't just aimed at flat water. In fact, it's an ALL WATER board. To simplify, here's how I would rate the Signature 2.0 (14x23) in a hurry:
Flat water: 9/10 (higher if it had less rocker)
Sprints: 9.9/10 (it's just a blast)
General Ocean Paddling: 9.5/10 (because it's got just the right amount of rocker to make it really fun)
Upwind: 9/10
Small downwind: 8/10
Messy conditions: 7.5/10 (higher score if the paddler is more competent than I)
Bigger downwind: doable, but not necessarily aimed at bigger conditions.
INSIDE / ON TOP
Again, do not mix apples and oranges!!!
It's easier to think of a paddler on the Ace, and / or Signature 2.0 as being "inside".
It's easier to think of a paddler on the Allstar, and / or RS as being "on top".
Standing inside a board, said board will roll a certain way.
Standing on top of a board, the roll will be exactly the opposite.
If you are not used to that roll, you are likely to blame that board as being too tippy.
Paddle at your ability, but just because you haven't accustomed yourself to paddle a certain type of board or a certain board doesn't mean that it's automatically "unstable" or "tippy".
You could also say:
The 26" wide board you are on is right there at your comfort level.
Standing on top of a wider board reassures you and has you right there at your comfort level (aiming at what you are comfortable with).
Post by: photofr on March 11, 2019, 12:14:31 AM
...In the videos of the Nelo boards being paddled the thing that struck me was how much side-to-side (aka roll) micro-movements there were...
The thing that struck me was how 2 of their team riders could not handle the board on pure flat water losing balance on simple wakes and on
simple buoy turn.
Now lets put them in open water with some good tasty side chop, it would make a good instructional video on how to fall from
a dugout without cracking your shin because if I'm to judge by this video, they had a lot of practice.
I suspect the GT is going to eventually eclipse the signature. Particularly with the narrower widths of the GT on the way.
Apparently, there's some sort of "noise" on the Internet about how a 22" Signature may also be on the way. Hum....... Interesting !
Post by: ukgm on March 11, 2019, 01:07:22 AM
...In the videos of the Nelo boards being paddled the thing that struck me was how much side-to-side (aka roll) micro-movements there were...
The thing that struck me was how 2 of their team riders could not handle the board on pure flat water losing balance on simple wakes and on
simple buoy turn.
Now lets put them in open water with some good tasty side chop, it would make a good instructional video on how to fall from
a dugout without cracking your shin because if I'm to judge by this video, they had a lot of practice.
I suspect the GT is going to eventually eclipse the signature. Particularly with the narrower widths of the GT on the way.
Apparently, there's some sort of "noise" on the Internet about how a 22" Signature may also be on the way. Hum....... Interesting !
Yes there is. I've been kept updated of what they are releasing next. I would guess that board is purely to support Bruno's needs because the starboard sprint 21.5 has features to help stability and that is a struggle. A 22 of a performance orientated speed machine is highly HIGHLY specialized development.
Post by: ukgm on March 11, 2019, 01:09:37 AM
I don't think that is fair and it's not true.
I believe it is a fair assessment. I've been on this thread since the very beginning and that's the impression I got.
We're not just talking about the GT now, this is not where the thread started. I've tested and owned few tippy
boards as narrow as 18" so I think I know how to spot a tippy board when I see one.
That's anything but a fair statement: How in the World can you attest that a board is tippy when you haven't been on one?
ELITE BOARDS
Similar to alpine skis, you can own an amazing race ski, heck, even the top three, and that doesn't mean much until you can totally master them. Anyway, explain to us how owning a few tippy boards will make you more competent at spotting a tippy board?
Because if enough people say they think it's tippy (depsite not using one) and the video shows it rolling around a bit more than a conventional board (which it appears to), I can see why he thinks the board is a bit much. Mind you, I've been through this myself (it's why I tested the starboard sprint 21.5 a few months back). Sooner or later you have to move beyond the anecdotes and just try it.
Post by: ukgm on March 11, 2019, 01:11:28 AM
...In the videos of the Nelo boards being paddled the thing that struck me was how much side-to-side (aka roll) micro-movements there were...
The thing that struck me was how 2 of their team riders could not handle the board on pure flat water losing balance on simple wakes and on
simple buoy turn.
Now lets put them in open water with some good tasty side chop, it would make a good instructional video on how to fall from
a dugout without cracking your shin because if I'm to judge by this video, they had a lot of practice.
I suspect the GT is going to eventually eclipse the signature. Particularly with the narrower widths of the GT on the way.
IMO it would have made much more sense if they'd introduced the GT first. It looks a lot more versatile than the signature and much more suitable
for all around racing. First impressions are crucial and a tippy board like the signature doesn't make for a good first impression unless you launched
it on the 11 cities with Bruno on it.
Of course. I would have made more sense if Starboard has released their 2018 Sprint before the 2014 too. However, its probably indicative of learning and ongoing development process. Fair play to them for putting money into a niche and almost entirely performance orientated market. The question will be the rhetorical question of 'what is a world title worth to a brand ?'
Post by: Area 10 on March 11, 2019, 03:24:07 AM
Standing inside a board, said board will roll a certain way.
Standing on top of a board, the roll will be exactly the opposite.
Could you please explain the physics of this statement??
Post by: photofr on March 11, 2019, 05:03:03 AM
Pictures to follow when I have more time.
Imagine paddling ON TOP of a 14 footer, and your board tilts to the right. When this happens your feet will be to the right of the boards axis.
Now imagine paddling INSIDE of a 14 footer, and same thing: your board tilts right. When this happens your feet will be to the LEFT of your boards axis.
This is why peoples brains play tricks on the feeling of tippiness regarding dugout boards... when you are not used to them.
Post by: burchas on March 11, 2019, 05:36:43 AM
I don't think that is fair and it's not true.
I believe it is a fair assessment. I've been on this thread since the very beginning and that's the impression I got.
We're not just talking about the GT now, this is not where the thread started. I've tested and owned few tippy
boards as narrow as 18" so I think I know how to spot a tippy board when I see one.
That's anything but a fair statement: How in the World can you attest that a board is tippy when you haven't been on one?
ELITE BOARDS
Similar to alpine skis, you can own an amazing race ski, heck, even the top three, and that doesn't mean much until you can totally master them. Anyway, explain to us how owning a few tippy boards will make you more competent at spotting a tippy board?
Because if enough people say they think it's tippy (depsite not using one) and the video shows it rolling around a bit more than a conventional board (which it appears to), I can see why he thinks the board is a bit much. Mind you, I've been through this myself (it's why I tested the starboard sprint 21.5 a few months back). Sooner or later you have to move beyond the anecdotes and just try it.
Well, enough people do say it's tippy, some even own and use it (or at least trying). A board which has more roll than usual (by your own admission) is exactly what people refer to as tippy mind you.
But for me what takes the prize is the fact their own team riders on their own official marketing material are having balance issues with the board on pure flat water. It tells me all I need to know.
And lets not forget the fact that side to side roll does affect speed. For the regular user that will probably kill any other benefits the board may provide.
Post by: ukgm on March 11, 2019, 06:21:10 AM
1) Well, enough people do say it's tippy, some even own and use it (or at least trying).
2) A board which has more roll than usual (by your own admission) is exactly what people refer to as tippy mind you.
3) But for me what takes the prize is the fact their own team riders on their own official marketing material are having balance issues with the board on pure flat water. It tells me all I need to know.
4) And lets not forget the fact that side to side roll does affect speed. For the regular user that will probably kill any other benefits the board may provide.
1) Did anyone with the board in this thread who owns it say it was tippy ? In fact I think we've only had one actual owner of the board participate in the thread. Everything else has been armchair quarterbacking so several people (no more than handful) isn't worth that much in my view. Have you spoke to any of their team riders though ? That would be interesting to know.
2) Not if the roll is predictable (as I described earlier). Predictable primary stability is fine in my book provided you know that the secondary is there at some point. Other watercraft have this all of the time. Its just that many boards we're used to favour high primary.
3) Where have you seen these balance issues on their official marketing info ? Do you mean the videos ? I don't recall any with balance 'issues' but yes, there is board roll. The question is whether you see 'roll' as synonymous with 'issues'. I don't personally. Some people from years back may remember the K15 had the same rolly feeling - you just have to get used to it (whether we should or not is another discussion entirely !).
4) Ironically, if the form has rounded rails and underneath (as the signature does but the GT does not), the side to side roll may not be the huge penalty you suggest. I don't have the data to know whether that would "kill any other benefits the board may provide". I haven't paddled it to know yet. I'll let you know in 3 weeks what I find out when I actually try it. I suspect the 24.75 I'll just be able to manage but the 23 will be beyond me.
I'm not trying to suggest the board is mega stable here. It likely isn't. However, there are a lot of assumptions made here that I don't believe any facts are in evidence to support them. It's just opinions. That's fine, but lets call that what it is and not try to suggest these as facts and instead give more credence to anyone who has actually paddled one...... with conflicts of interest disclosed.
Post by: Area 10 on March 11, 2019, 07:08:28 AM
Its actually easy to demonstrate.Im going to need a diagram or two to understand your point, Im afraid. Could you please just jot down what you mean?
Pictures to follow when I have more time.
Imagine paddling ON TOP of a 14 footer, and your board tilts to the right. When this happens your feet will be to the right of the boards axis.
Now imagine paddling INSIDE of a 14 footer, and same thing: your board tilts right. When this happens your feet will be to the LEFT of your boards axis.
This is why peoples brains play tricks on the feeling of tippiness regarding dugout boards... when you are not used to them.
Post by: ukgm on March 11, 2019, 07:28:51 AM
Its actually easy to demonstrate.Im going to need a diagram or two to understand your point, Im afraid. Could you please just jot down what you mean?
Pictures to follow when I have more time.
Imagine paddling ON TOP of a 14 footer, and your board tilts to the right. When this happens your feet will be to the right of the boards axis.
Now imagine paddling INSIDE of a 14 footer, and same thing: your board tilts right. When this happens your feet will be to the LEFT of your boards axis.
This is why peoples brains play tricks on the feeling of tippiness regarding dugout boards... when you are not used to them.
Yep, I think I see what he's getting at but if your stance is circa 20 inches wide, you'd need to tip the board a lot to get both feet past the central axis in any direction surely ?
Post by: burchas on March 11, 2019, 07:33:44 AM
1) Well, enough people do say it's tippy, some even own and use it (or at least trying).
2) A board which has more roll than usual (by your own admission) is exactly what people refer to as tippy mind you.
3) But for me what takes the prize is the fact their own team riders on their own official marketing material are having balance issues with the board on pure flat water. It tells me all I need to know.
4) And lets not forget the fact that side to side roll does affect speed. For the regular user that will probably kill any other benefits the board may provide.
1) Did anyone with the board in this thread who owns it say it was tippy ? In fact I think we've only had one actual owner of the board participate in the thread. Everything else has been armchair quarterbacking so several people (no more than handful) isn't worth that much in my view. I don't know them personally to know their background, skill level or qualifications.
2) Not if the roll is predictable (as I described earlier). Predictable primary stability is fine in my book provided you know that the secondary is there at some point. Other watercraft have this all of the time. Its just that many boards we're used to favour high primary.
3) Where have you seen these balance issues on their official marketing info ? Do you mean the videos ? I don't recall any with balance 'issues' but yes, there is board roll. The question is whether you see 'roll' as synonymous with 'issues'. I don't personally.
4) Ironically, if the form has rounded rails and underneath (as the signature does but the GT does not), the side to side roll may not be the huge penalty you suggest. I don't have the data to know whether that would "kill any other benefits the board may provide". I haven't paddled it to know yet. I'll let you know in 3 weeks what I find out when I actually try it. I suspect the 24.75 I'll just be able to manage but the 23 will be beyond me.
I'm not trying to suggest the board is stable here. However, there are a lot of assumptions made here that I don't believe any facts are in evidence for to support them. It's just opinions. That's fine, but lets call that what it is rather than trying to pass these off as facts.
I'll reiterate again that I'm only talking about impressions, I couldn't pass it as a fact even if I owned the board as my preference and ability differs from others. I happened to like boards with roll and good secondary stability,
especially in rougher water it helps me keeping rhythm. The predictability you're talking about is not something everyone likes nor can adapt to and I've seen people struggle with that and just give up the board. This inability
to adapt is what going to kill the other benefits. If you can't trust the board not to roll and throw you off that means you're too tentative and losing speed to account for stability.
The video I'm referring too clearly shows what I'm talking about, specifically about the signature. The rider on the green board starts strong and then lost stability at 0:13 on the video and become very tentative thereafter.
The rider on the Pink board is tentative from the get go, and we're talking about glass like water with minor wakes with these are team riders. on a real race, they would not stand a chance.
I can only imagine a what's going to happen to a regular Joe on real race with 200 board around.
Here is the video for reference:
https://vimeo.com/283958640
Post by: ukgm on March 11, 2019, 07:35:43 AM
Post by: burchas on March 11, 2019, 07:41:55 AM
Just as an aside, one of my paddling buddies has been borrowing the 24.75 Signature. He's ex national level C1 granted but he's just posted video footage of taking that board out on a downwinder in huge swell and a F6 gale. Its damn impressive.
And the link to the video?
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 07:46:27 AM
Post by: Area 10 on March 11, 2019, 08:13:44 AM
It is funny but going through the thread, if I close my eyes, a minute I can imagine that we are talking about the original Naish Javelin (the Iggy design from 2011) :-)Funny. I owned the original 17. And a while ago I downwinded the original 14. I did remember it (from around 2009-11) as being a bit of a handful. But now I was amazed at how stable it is, and especially how fast and easy it is in our conditions. That huge elf nose really works well locally here. It was faster and easier than a Bullet 14v2 in our conditions. Its all perspective...
Its kinda sad in a way that Im probably better than 99% of other SUPers I know (thats not saying much though because most people I know are beginners) but Im hearing now about SUP feats and equipment that I just wouldnt even bother trying to engage with. Im just not good enough, and never will be. Yet I am probably the most SUP-obsessed person Ive ever met, and have almost certainly spent more on equipment over the last 12 years than any other private individual in the UK. But Im feeling pushed out of the sport in many ways. Its only my incompetence I know, and I was lucky ever to have eg. won races in the first place, at my age. But it still feels a bit sad to be confronted so starkly with it. I probably wont even be able to stand on the boards that the top National competitors (never mind the most elite internationally) within a year or two, never mind race them.
Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.
Post by: ukgm on March 11, 2019, 08:40:11 AM
Just as an aside, one of my paddling buddies has been borrowing the 24.75 Signature. He's ex national level C1 granted but he's just posted video footage of taking that board out on a downwinder in huge swell and a F6 gale. Its damn impressive.
And the link to the video?
Its only on a friends private facebook page. (Area10 & Luc B, I've now been able to tag you into it as you're connected to me). It's pretty impressive to watch.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 08:42:51 AM
Post by: ukgm on March 11, 2019, 08:45:06 AM
I probably wont even be able to stand on the boards that the top National competitors (never mind the most elite internationally) within a year or two, never mind race them.
Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.
Yep, it's known as re-skilling in my field. It's taken a sport that was all about the paddling and water management into the balancing act Jimmy Terrell and others forecasted. It's happened, it's here and I'm out.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 08:53:28 AM
Post by: photofr on March 11, 2019, 09:31:40 AM
Its actually easy to demonstrate.Im going to need a diagram or two to understand your point, Im afraid. Could you please just jot down what you mean?
Pictures to follow when I have more time.
Imagine paddling ON TOP of a 14 footer, and your board tilts to the right. When this happens your feet will be to the right of the boards axis.
Now imagine paddling INSIDE of a 14 footer, and same thing: your board tilts right. When this happens your feet will be to the LEFT of your boards axis.
This is why peoples brains play tricks on the feeling of tippiness regarding dugout boards... when you are not used to them.
Here's a RAW diagram.
The most important things to note:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/SUP-Stand-Up-Paddling/i-5GJbX2R/0/967c0308/XL/board-axis-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/SUP-Stand-Up-Paddling/i-5GJbX2R/A)
ON TOP, the right green square goes FURTHER AWAY from the axis (as the board goes from flat to tilting right) see the red result.
ON THE DUGOUT, the right green square GETS CLOSER to the axis (as the board goes from flat to tilting right) see the yellow result.
EASIER:
For those paddling ON TOP of a board, your brain will get used to (say) a gain BUT will be completely out of whack when exactly the opposite happens with a DUGOUT board.
Post by: Area 10 on March 11, 2019, 09:49:27 AM
Yep, me too. This thread has been very useful in kinda cementing in my mind what I already knew. Its quite liberating, in a way.I probably wont even be able to stand on the boards that the top National competitors (never mind the most elite internationally) within a year or two, never mind race them.
Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.
Yep, it's known as re-skilling in my field. It's taken a sport that was all about the paddling and water management into the balancing act Jimmy Terrell and others forecasted. It's happened, it's here and I'm out.
Ill still SUP surf. But Im mostly alone these days. A couple of weeks ago we had the most glorious weather and surf for about a week here. I was at my favourite break, a mile offshore, catching glassy head-high+ waves in warm sun, with rides up to half a mile long, at will. And I had the whole place to myself. A few years ago theyd have been a whole gang of us. But the good guys have moved to foiling and the newcomers are not ambitious enough or dont have sufficient background skills and experience to tackle those kinds of breaks.
Similar situation with downwinding.
But maybe in other geographical areas things are different. It takes a particular person to persevere at SUP in UK conditions. Now the novelty has worn off, and the racing side has become so serious - and technically out of the reach of most of the population- other pursuits become more tempting.
Theres a river/canal I paddle for fitness with a friend about an hour from me. Every time we go we see a canoe club out there. They are clearly very serious and train hard. Lots of them have Nelo boats. They blast past, often looking pretty impressive technically. But boy oh boy do they look miserable. And its quite clear from their looks what they think of us. I cant blame them I suppose. Theyve opened their club to SUPs now, and its a wonderful deal you get for your money in terms of clubhouse, resources, discounts etc. The ICF have told them to get some SUPs in. But no SUPers have joined so far, to my knowledge. Maybe when Nelo dominate, a few of them willl start standing up, and then the handing over of the baton of the sport will be complete. Maybe even the ICF are supporting Nelo ;)
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 09:55:44 AM
Are you saying that in a dugout, the right foot when leaning right goes under water level on a dugout but that on a flat bed it stays over water level.
Or is it in relation to the center line of the board, that the right foot somewhat get further away from the center line on an oblong board but both feet stay roughly at the same distance on a dugout.
Also it would be easier to visualize if the top board was a flat deck rather than a fully oblong shape.
Post by: Area 10 on March 11, 2019, 09:57:14 AM
Standing inside a board, said board will roll a certain way.
Standing on top of a board, the roll will be exactly the opposite.
But your diagram isnt showing an opposite pattern of roll, is it?
Post by: photofr on March 11, 2019, 10:10:35 AM
Its actually easy to demonstrate.Im going to need a diagram or two to understand your point, Im afraid. Could you please just jot down what you mean?
Pictures to follow when I have more time.
Imagine paddling ON TOP of a 14 footer, and your board tilts to the right. When this happens your feet will be to the right of the boards axis.
Now imagine paddling INSIDE of a 14 footer, and same thing: your board tilts right. When this happens your feet will be to the LEFT of your boards axis.
This is why peoples brains play tricks on the feeling of tippiness regarding dugout boards... when you are not used to them.
Here's a RAW diagram.
The most important things to note:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/SUP-Stand-Up-Paddling/i-5GJbX2R/0/967c0308/XL/board-axis-XL.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/SUP-Stand-Up-Paddling/i-5GJbX2R/A)
ON TOP, the right green square goes FURTHER AWAY from the axis (as the board goes from flat to tilting right) see the red result.
ON THE DUGOUT, the right green square GETS CLOSER to the axis (as the board goes from flat to tilting right) see the yellow result.
EASIER:
For those paddling ON TOP of a board, your brain will get used to (say) a gain BUT will be completely out of whack when exactly the opposite happens with a DUGOUT board.
In attempt to explain it a little better (gees, it's so much easier to demonstrate in person) - I revamped the explanation. Let me know if it now makes sense:
ON TOP, the right green square goes FURTHER AWAY from the axis (as the board goes from flat to tilting right) see the red result.
ON THE DUGOUT, the right green square GETS CLOSER to the axis (as the board goes from flat to tilting right) see the yellow result.
Post by: photofr on March 11, 2019, 10:26:07 AM
- WHEN STANDING ON TOP: the board tilts, green becomes red (the right foot moves +20 units away from the axis point)
- WHEN INSIDE A DUGOUT: the board tilts, blue becomes yellow (the right foot moves -5 units closer to the axis point).
***
The reason many people feel that a board is tippier than it should be is because the brain sometimes misinterprets tilts on dugout boards; the brain thinks the right foot should be moving away from the axis when in fact it's moving closer to the axis - or vise/versa depending on which board your come from.
***
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/SUP-Stand-Up-Paddling/i-SDkxMD9/0/fb396897/L/board-axis-02-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/SUP-Stand-Up-Paddling/i-SDkxMD9/A)
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 11:09:24 AM
So do you think that the brain is getting an increasing impression that we are going to fall "overboard" because the foot is closer to the axis? Accentuated by the sidewall that look like they would "trip" the leg?
Post by: Area 10 on March 11, 2019, 11:22:07 AM
Post by: photofr on March 11, 2019, 11:24:17 AM
No, not necessarily an increasing impression - instead, I feel that the brain is getting the exact opposite reaction from one board to the other, like a mirror impression. But don't worry, I think it will be made simpler below...
--------------------------
Sorry guys... it's been a really LONG day.
Please allow me to simplify things, and so as to make the scenario much clearer.
To address what I believe to be true from personal experience:
- The side to side motion of a board is perceived very differently by our brains, depending on weather you are standing ON TOP of a board or INSIDE A DUGOUT board.
NOTE
In this example, both boards will tilt right 15 degrees.
Everything is completely exaggerated, but only to demonstrate what happens in a clearer manner.
IMPORTANT RESULTS
1.Foot placement doesn't change on the board.
2. The direction of each foot relative to the axis is exactly the OPPOSITE (from Standing ON TOP of a board to Standing INSIDE A DUGOUT board).
3. Keep your eyes on the right foot in the top 2 sketches below: you will notice that when the board lays flat, the right foot moves AWAY from the axis when you are PADDLING ON TOP (see the difference between 2 & 4).
4. Keep your eyes on the right foot in the bottom 2 sketches below: you will notice that when the board lays flat, the right foot moves CLOSER to the axis when you are PADDLING INSIDE A DUGOUT (see the difference between 6 & 8).
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/SUP-Stand-Up-Paddling/i-t4SqsqX/0/0db87315/L/board-axis-03-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/SUP-Stand-Up-Paddling/i-t4SqsqX/A)
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 11:42:28 AM
One think I have to say is that a paddling stance as close as possible to water level is just so much nicer.
This week-end we had flat water and I took the Ace-GT out one day and the Maliko the other. Even with the Maliko seating pretty low on the water, I did realize that there was a difference.
Enough difference to warrant between one and two inches in paddle shaft length.
I do not notice the same when the water is moving only on somewhat flat water which I found strange in itself.
So yes it I was to have a flat water board, I would want it to be a dugout of some kind in order to seat as low as possible on the water.
I do not have any experience with tippy dugout like an Ace 25" or a Storm, only with the Ace-GT.
Post by: photofr on March 11, 2019, 11:52:39 AM
Another point probably worth noting about dugout boards:
Paddle size!
Using my Allstar (14x25) required me to purchase a new paddle, for all my boards were dugouts and therefore too short. I have to admit though, having a shorter paddle is not only lighter and easier to swing around, but it just feel so much better all around.
But hey: let me now turn the page over to all of those who will hate dugout boards, hollow boards, UL, and/or anything light and super reactive (come on... it's a joke... LAUGH!)
Post by: ukgm on March 11, 2019, 11:56:29 AM
1) Yep, me too. This thread has been very useful in kinda cementing in my mind what I already knew. Its quite liberating, in a way.1) The board test did that for me and a current lack of event innovation. It dawned on me that product in general was poor and it was the same old events with the same old people. It just got boring. I also wanted one day national championships with some prestige and age group recognition.
2) But maybe in other geographical areas things are different. It takes a particular person to persevere at SUP in UK conditions. Now the novelty has worn off, and the racing side has become so serious - and technically out of the reach of most of the population- other pursuits become more tempting.
3) Maybe even the ICF are supporting Nelo ;)
2) I'll still paddle regulary as its a great method of cross training.
3) Look at where the worlds were going to be last year and you'll probably have your answer there ;-) .
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 12:14:09 PM
1) Yep, me too. This thread has been very useful in kinda cementing in my mind what I already knew. Its quite liberating, in a way.1) The board test did that for me and a current lack of event innovation. It dawned on me that product in general was poor and it was the same old events with the same old people. It just got boring. I also wanted one day national championships with some prestige and age group recognition.
2) But maybe in other geographical areas things are different. It takes a particular person to persevere at SUP in UK conditions. Now the novelty has worn off, and the racing side has become so serious - and technically out of the reach of most of the population- other pursuits become more tempting.
3) Maybe even the ICF are supporting Nelo ;)
2) I'll still paddle regulary as its a great method of cross training.
3) Look at where the worlds were going to be last year and you'll probably have your answer there ;-) .
There was a new downwind race opening to SUP last summer in my favourite spot (19km) and there is another one (15km) been created a ferry ride away this year.
I will miss one but I was the first one to register again to the other one for the second year and almost all my friends are coming :-)
https://www.facebook.com/events/891136014610903/ (https://www.facebook.com/events/891136014610903/)
https://www.facebook.com/events/261244164778141/ (https://www.facebook.com/events/261244164778141/)
Disclaimer: I am old and boring
Post by: mrbig on March 11, 2019, 12:58:16 PM
However, after a brief paddle and discovery why I am curious how people without such a gadget respond to falling and hitting the edge.
Highly skilled folks just don't fall, but I did and it was most unpleasant. Clambering back aboard was also horrible..
Post by: Area 10 on March 11, 2019, 02:24:05 PM
Well, its definitely impressive to take that board out in those conditions, but it is a short clip and there isnt much in the way of bump-riding. The camera angle is curious. I reckon I could probably have managed to get a clip like that on my JL 14x23 sidewinder or Ace and I absolutely could not cope with those boards! Id have been on my knees the rest of the time :) We can all look heroes for a few seconds 😀😀😀 But Ive paddled with that guy and his balance is very good, so maybe he was actually doing that for an hour or two solid. If so, fair play to him. Hed have had a lot more fun on a proper downwind board though - I was watching those bumps in front of him and thinking CHARGE!! but you simply cant if your board is a twitchy as hell. What a waste of some superb conditions!Just as an aside, one of my paddling buddies has been borrowing the 24.75 Signature. He's ex national level C1 granted but he's just posted video footage of taking that board out on a downwinder in huge swell and a F6 gale. Its damn impressive.
And the link to the video?
Its only on a friends private facebook page. (Area10 & Luc B, I've now been able to tag you into it as you're connected to me). It's pretty impressive to watch.
Post by: ukgm on March 11, 2019, 02:35:22 PM
Just as an aside, one of my paddling buddies has been borrowing the 24.75 Signature. He's ex national level C1 granted but he's just posted video footage of taking that board out on a downwinder in huge swell and a F6 gale. Its damn impressive.
And the link to the video?
He has posted up another one at sea on the board here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SCgZeCpReI&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1k1zb4cDiKqAv0KuHdXAE3EAPeqpVcddZAahqWTgeMsWwZpz00bHMhVkg
Post by: burchas on March 11, 2019, 02:38:23 PM
Well, its definitely impressive to take that board out in those conditions, but it is a short clip and there isnt much in the way of bump-riding. The camera angle is curious. I reckon I could probably have managed to get a clip like that on my JL 14x23 sidewinder or Ace and I absolutely could not cope with those boards! Id have been on my knees the rest of the time :) We can all look heroes for a few seconds 😀😀😀 But Ive paddled with that guy and his balance is very good, so maybe he was actually doing that for an hour or two solid. If so, fair play to him. Hed have had a lot more fun on a proper downwind board though - I was watching those bumps in front of him and thinking CHARGE!! but you simply cant if your board is a twitchy as hell. What a waste of some superb conditions!Just as an aside, one of my paddling buddies has been borrowing the 24.75 Signature. He's ex national level C1 granted but he's just posted video footage of taking that board out on a downwinder in huge swell and a F6 gale. Its damn impressive.
And the link to the video?
Its only on a friends private facebook page. (Area10 & Luc B, I've now been able to tag you into it as you're connected to me). It's pretty impressive to watch.
I thought there is a reason why this video is private. Now I know. doesn't seem like you're too impressed though In UK's opinion that was impressive. He is a flat water paddler after all so I can understand why.
I guess we're still hanging on with that embarrassing video
https://vimeo.com/283958640
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 02:39:35 PM
Just as an aside, one of my paddling buddies has been borrowing the 24.75 Signature. He's ex national level C1 granted but he's just posted video footage of taking that board out on a downwinder in huge swell and a F6 gale. Its damn impressive.
And the link to the video?
He has posted up another one at sea on the board here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SCgZeCpReI&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1k1zb4cDiKqAv0KuHdXAE3EAPeqpVcddZAahqWTgeMsWwZpz00bHMhVkg
I had a look at this video and in my limited experience it gives credit to the paddler but not really to the board as a downwind machine.....
Post by: burchas on March 11, 2019, 02:41:06 PM
Just as an aside, one of my paddling buddies has been borrowing the 24.75 Signature. He's ex national level C1 granted but he's just posted video footage of taking that board out on a downwinder in huge swell and a F6 gale. Its damn impressive.
And the link to the video?
He has posted up another one at sea on the board here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SCgZeCpReI&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1k1zb4cDiKqAv0KuHdXAE3EAPeqpVcddZAahqWTgeMsWwZpz00bHMhVkg
He should have kept it private. At least there was the allure. He look like me on Jeremy Riggs board trying to catch bumps on Maliko. The word flattering doesn't come to mind
For a second there I thought to suggest to post his impressive video on Light-Sup website but now I think they'd better stick to what they have.
Post by: ukgm on March 11, 2019, 02:47:50 PM
Just as an aside, one of my paddling buddies has been borrowing the 24.75 Signature. He's ex national level C1 granted but he's just posted video footage of taking that board out on a downwinder in huge swell and a F6 gale. Its damn impressive.
And the link to the video?
He has posted up another one at sea on the board here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SCgZeCpReI&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1k1zb4cDiKqAv0KuHdXAE3EAPeqpVcddZAahqWTgeMsWwZpz00bHMhVkg
He should have kept it private. At least there was the allure. He look like me on Jeremy Riggs board trying to catch bumps on Maliko. The word flattering doesn't come to mind
For a second there I thought to suggest to post his impressive video on Light-Sup website but now I think they'd better stick to what they have.
That's not the same video I referred to earlier. Its just one I found of him on the board recently that was public access.
Post by: ukgm on March 11, 2019, 02:49:12 PM
Well, its definitely impressive to take that board out in those conditions, but it is a short clip and there isnt much in the way of bump-riding. The camera angle is curious. I reckon I could probably have managed to get a clip like that on my JL 14x23 sidewinder or Ace and I absolutely could not cope with those boards! Id have been on my knees the rest of the time :) We can all look heroes for a few seconds 😀😀😀 But Ive paddled with that guy and his balance is very good, so maybe he was actually doing that for an hour or two solid. If so, fair play to him. Hed have had a lot more fun on a proper downwind board though - I was watching those bumps in front of him and thinking CHARGE!! but you simply cant if your board is a twitchy as hell. What a waste of some superb conditions!Just as an aside, one of my paddling buddies has been borrowing the 24.75 Signature. He's ex national level C1 granted but he's just posted video footage of taking that board out on a downwinder in huge swell and a F6 gale. Its damn impressive.
And the link to the video?
Its only on a friends private facebook page. (Area10 & Luc B, I've now been able to tag you into it as you're connected to me). It's pretty impressive to watch.
I thought there is a reason why this video is private. Now I know. doesn't seem like you're too impressed though In UK's opinion that was impressive. He is a flat water paddler after all so I can understand why.
I guess we're still hanging on with that embarrassing video
https://vimeo.com/283958640
It seems nothing is going to convince you about the board and anecdotes are enough for you. That's fine. For the record though, I do surfski on bumps even if my SUP preference in different.
Post by: burchas on March 11, 2019, 02:54:17 PM
Post by: mr_proper on March 11, 2019, 03:15:08 PM
1) Did anyone with the board in this thread who owns it say it was tippy ?
Yes, me. I had owned the Signature 24,75 and with my 196 cm and 93 kg it was to tippy for me. In flat conditions no problem, but on our river with boat waves from the side or during the start of a race, it was to tippy. Same board, same conditions and a paddle buddy with some kg and 20 cm less has absolutely no troubles.
For me, the 23 RS is also tippy, but it rolls less. Overall the 23 RS is a little bit easier for me. But also more for flat conditions.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 03:38:59 PM
That's not the same video I referred to earlier. Its just one I found of him on the board recently that was public access.
Yes the conditions do not look the same in both video. The ones on FB are finger licking, blade twitching good. the ones on YouTube look just plain vanilla and it looks like it might have been one of the first time down-winding on this board. Based on the conditions and the well known technical savvy of the paddler, it leaves the board not really looking its best in down-winding conditions on the YouTube video.
ps:
I stand corrected both were posted with the same date. but on a 18 km downwind it is reasonable to expect the conditions to be different at different time of the run.
It is still difficult to relate the two videos and specially 23 km max speed and 9 km average speed is very commendable (I wish we would have these conditions more often).
So going from teh YouTube video to the 23 km max speed is such a big leap.
ps to ps: Another correction. The YouTube video was on March 9th or prior, the FaceBook video was on March 11th, 2019. So not only this guy is a really good paddler but it also got used to the board in two days. Kudos to him.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 03:41:02 PM
Post by: burchas on March 11, 2019, 04:07:47 PM
That's not the same video I referred to earlier. Its just one I found of him on the board recently that was public access.
ps:
I stand corrected both were posted with the same date. but on a 18 km downwind it is reasonable to expect the conditions to be different at different time of the run.
It's certainly possible, but according to the rumors it was held in huge swell and a F6 gale conditions (which does not exist) either it's Beaufort 6 which is described as
Strong Breeze or it is F6 which a phantom Tornado that is considered a myth. None of them are Gale and I can't see huge swell, but maybe on your end you could.
Either way, kudos to the rider but everyone is in a clear agreement that it looks like board really sucked. So I'm not sure what's the selling point here.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 04:36:39 PM
That's not the same video I referred to earlier. Its just one I found of him on the board recently that was public access.
ps:
I stand corrected both were posted with the same date. but on a 18 km downwind it is reasonable to expect the conditions to be different at different time of the run.
It's certainly possible, but according to the rumors it was held in huge swell and a F6 gale conditions (which does not exist) either it's Beaufort 6 which is described as
Strong Breeze or it is F6 which a phantom Tornado that is considered a myth. None of them are Gale and I can't see huge swell, but maybe on your end you could.
Either way, kudos to the rider but everyone is in a clear agreement that it looks like board really sucked. So I'm not sure what's the selling point here.
Yes correction it was on two different days and conditions as I first assumed from the videos.
From the FB page, it seems that he is a friend of the Hasulyo brothers so might have inside scoops soon :-) but has also paddled a Naish Maliko and a JL Sidewinder. If you guys know him well, it might be interesting to get a run-down on all these board in choppy/ocean conditions.
Post by: Area 10 on March 11, 2019, 04:48:37 PM
For doing that - that is really skillful stuff. Skillful like playing golf with a walking stick would be. Or playing tennis with a spoon instead of a racket. Skilful but curiously pointless. But maybe Nelo will bring out a proper downwind board - now that really would get my attention :) :)
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 04:57:30 PM
9.1kph is 5.7 mph. This guy is a really good paddler. He could probably average 5.7 mph over that distance on pure flat water (especially with the wind behind him). In the conditions in the video he should have been absolutely flying - and he would have been if hed have been on a proper downwind board. Kudos to him
For doingbthat - that is really skilfull stuff. But maybe Nelo should bring out a proper downwind board - now that would get my attention :) :)
Agreed but if it is bumpy, two things can happen you have enough push/wind and you go with the bumps and it is fast OR you stay stuck (not enough wind/wrong board/cannot get your timing going) and all the bumps are doing is slowing you down, so that you go slower than if it was flat. So somewhere he did not got stuck. I would thing that on a proper downwind board it would be more at 10 km/h + average. You can see the fluttering of the board at some time. Remove that and it would go like crazy. Outside of any controversy, this guy is good, period.
This is of course just my opinion as a beginner down-winder.
oh and and he did not let a 8kg board go flying in the wind on its own :-)
Post by: burchas on March 11, 2019, 05:30:44 PM
But maybe Nelo will bring out a proper downwind board - now that really would get my attention :) :)
And more importantly, your money ;D Mine too.
Post by: Area 10 on March 11, 2019, 06:18:58 PM
I wonder how hed have got on on a Maliko (never mind a 17-4 Bullet) in those conditions. Or the UL Sunova, or the NSP UL. 5.7mph? Hmm...
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 06:47:37 PM
So yes the board can be down-winded by a very good paddler as proven by the 9 km/h average and the 23 km/h top speed but based on what we see of the conditions in the video, the same paddler on a better suited board would have been flying and scored a higher average speed, consistently going more aggressively after those juicy bumps and better supported in that by the board capability.
So to the subject of the discussion, if it was just based on its down-winding ability I am personally extremely unlikely to purchase the board, and would keep my Maliko.
Post by: burchas on March 11, 2019, 09:09:07 PM
Right, sorry, we are agreeing with each other :-)
So yes the board can be down-winded by a very good paddler as proven by the 9 km/h average and the 23 km/h top speed but based on what we see of the conditions in the video, the same paddler on a better suited board would have been flying and scored a higher average speed, consistently going more aggressively after those juicy bumps and better supported in that by the board capability.
So to the subject of the discussion, if it was just based on its down-winding ability I am personally extremely unlikely to purchase the board, and would keep my Maliko.
Luc, the 9km/h actually proven the opposite. To be considered down winding you need some surf to happen. If that was the case, average speed was much higher in these conditions.
What more likely happened is him paddling hard to get into bumps only to miss them time after time because the board can't take-off which is kind of what you see in the video.
The real marvel is that he can actually paddle hard on this board in these conditions.
Post by: photofr on March 11, 2019, 09:29:39 PM
I have not seen the original video - but I would love to.
I am a bit surprised though. A few days ago, many of you were automatically assuming that the Signature 2.0 was a flat water board, designed (supposedly) for inland paddling like super calm lakes and such. Claims (by people who haven't tried the board) went on about how it was really only aimed at inland paddlers. Then you see the same board on a hefty Downwind and jumped ship but you still havent seen the board in real life, let alone paddled a Signature 2.0 (14x23).
You should know that:
1. The 2.0 (14x23) has more of a rounded hull than the Sprint 14x23 that helps with speed.
2. The 2.0 (14x23) has more rocker than the Sprint 14x23 that helps with making it more versatile, in a variety of conditions.
3. The 2.0 (14x23) is way lighter than the Sprint 14x23 that helps with super fast starts, sprint races, and makes catching smaller bumps that much easier.
4. The 2.0 (14x23) has many attributes, but isnt a DW specific board by any stretch of the imagination even if it can handle way bigger Ocean conditions than the Sprint 14x23.
** RECAP ** WHAT IS THE SIGNATURE AIMED AT
To simplify, here's how I would rate the Signature 2.0 (14x23) in a hurry:
Flat water: 9/10 (higher if it had less rocker)
Sprints: 9.9/10 (it's just a blast)
General Ocean Paddling: 9.5/10 (because it's got just the right amount of rocker to make it really fun)
Upwind: 9/10
Small downwind: 8/10
Messy conditions: 7.5/10 (higher score if the paddler is more competent than I)
Bigger downwind: doable, but not necessarily aimed at bigger conditions.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 09:52:31 PM
Luc, the 9km/h actually proven the opposite. To be considered down winding you need some surf to happen. If that was the case, average speed was much higher in these conditions.
What more likely happened is him paddling hard to get into bumps only to miss them time after time because the board can't take-off which is kind of what you see in the video.
The real marvel is that he can actually paddle hard on this board in these conditions.
Then he is a really strong paddler. Missing bumps would usually slow you down under or around 7 km/h if the wind is not too strong (like a system shutting down for exemple) but the bumps are still sizeable but without much push. If the wind is really strong it can usually still push you enough over that speed a bit even if you are not really taking most of the bumps and getting slow down by the ones you cannot really take. In the FB video he is taking bumps, contrary to the YouTube video, so the truth is probably in between. He was able to take advantage of some bumps but not most but was also able to maintain a reasonable speed by paddling alone...maybe....it is difficult really to be certain with two videos of less than a minute....It would be great to hear a comparison directly from the horse's mouth.
Not sure if you guys are able to see the FB video, it looks a lot better than the YouTube video.
https://www.facebook.com/zoltandoterdelyi/videos/vb.1360763355/10214661477994871/?type=2&theater&comment_id=10214666245314051¬if_t=comment_mention¬if_id=1552318802191654 (https://www.facebook.com/zoltandoterdelyi/videos/vb.1360763355/10214661477994871/?type=2&theater&comment_id=10214666245314051¬if_t=comment_mention¬if_id=1552318802191654)
Post by: Luc Benac on March 11, 2019, 10:19:35 PM
Nobody has been "jumping ship" to say that the board was now a good downwind board. Almost everything can be down-winded by a really good paddler, if painfully so sometime. From my part, I have not seen anything in the two videos or in the promotional video that would make me want to get that boards for my use. Granted the videos are quite short.
I think that we have reached a status quo in the discussion:
You love that board for any use possible and support the brand and as soon as you have sold your current board you will purchase another similar one that you will love even more. Great, that is one happy repeat customer and I am sure that the brand could use more and there is nothing nicer than finding a board that fit you like a comfortable shoe.
mr proper had one and sold it for a totally different board.
Burchas does not like the board period :-)
UGKM might like the board with a few adjustment in size for flat water racing
Area10 might like the construction of the board if applied to a down-wind specific design
I would not buy these boards even if I had the money for it as they just do not fit what I like based on what I have vicariously seen. In addition to be totally frank, I find the line and aesthetic of the boards not at all to my taste and somewhat I like my boards to look pleasing to my eyes. But that is just a personal taste not a statement of fact.
The jury is still out whether these boards are or are not suitable for normal paddlers as an all-water board and it does not look like a meeting of the mind will be reached within the few of us in this thread. From my part, I can safely say that the Naish Maliko is a true all-water or all-purpose board for people around my weight and skill level with really minimum compromise outside of weight. I believe that Ludovic feels the same for both the board you are selling and the board you demoed too (if I remember correctly). So horse for the course and we can each recommend a different board using the usual caveat emptor of our general use, own weight and skill levels.
At the end of eth day everybody is happy and everybody is paddling (different boards) :-)
Post by: photofr on March 12, 2019, 12:12:52 AM
Heres somewhat of a logical deduction: Maybe I am just tired of people claiming things that they know nothing about.
There are 100s of people reading this thread, and so I cant just sit back and let 7 individuals make unsounded claims like:
1) the Signature 2.0 is a flat water board, designed for inland paddlers. It was even mentioned that it wouldnt do well as an all around board in the Ocean.
2) I know how to spot a tippy board when I see one without ever seeing one in this case.
3) I believe that round boards cannot DW well, or surf well but then has the poster even looked at NSP boards, Molokai Channel crossings, Travis, or simply the sport of surfskis?
All 3 statements above are unfounded, and do not represent the Signature 2.0
The latest, people pointing out how the Signature 2.0 can't handle hefty conditions with ease.
Do you not see how ridiculous this is, and the irony of it all?????
It's black: no, it's white.
It's a fast board: no, it's too tippy (look at the video).
it can surf: no, it can't (I have never tried one, but I know that it cannot possibly surf).
It's versatile: no, it can't handle 20-foot swells (look at the average speed).
It's super light: no, it will sink.
Remember: Seemingly, there are only 10 people commenting here.
1 of the 10 has publically admitted that he wasnt ready for his purchase.
2 others have tried the board (including myself).
That leaves about 7 people who have made so many claims about the Nelo Signature, without so much as seeing one.
Post by: ukgm on March 12, 2019, 12:20:15 AM
Nighter Luc nor A10 seemed too impressed, they were just nice about it, so I'm not sure it's just me.
Well to be honest, I'm not sure what board everyone is judging it against. The comparisons up to this point would seem to be apples to oranges. Personally, I'd test the signature against a starboard sprint or mistral vortex and the GT against an allstar. They are fair comparisons. If you're going to compare to something like an Ace for example, that's out of its intended scope and its no wonder you're not happy. Both Luc and A10 are experienced offshore paddlers and like getting out there is some decent size swell. This board can in skilled hands but isn't really meant for that. The GT may well suit them better..... if its made a little wider.
I probably should clarify some things at this point:
- I offered links of videos showing the signature going downwind as a means of illustrating that the balance likely isn't the complete nightmare that several paddlers say it is (having never paddled it). I did not wish to suggest the board is downwind raceable - it isn't and it isn't intended that way.
- I think its fair to say that the number of paddlers who have actually paddled it (and therefore have any credibility to comment on it) number only a couple here. The number of videos of the board in action number very few too. I personally wouldn't go making any conclusions based on either of these facts no matter how many people read this thread.
- Reading the advert for the Signature it says: "designed for experience paddlers", "canoe style convex hull design". That tells you that the board may well be beyond your skill level when compared to equivalently sized boards. It doesn't say it may be too much for you though. But you have to try. In about 3 weeks time, I'll be the only person in my country to have tried both boards in their range and I'll let you know what I think. I suspect one I'd buy the other I wouldn't.
- Finally, (and I want to add this to clarify my own position), I have no affiliations to the brand or the boards. I'm not on their team. I'm supportive of the boards as I understand what they are trying to do - even if much of their current range is likely beyond my skill ability.
Post by: Area 10 on March 12, 2019, 01:52:15 AM
photofr - this thread has ranged far and wide in its topics, since the Nelo board is a new(ish) development so it has sparked a wider discussion of where Racing is going, that has its history long before Jim Terrell summed up his fears several years ago. This board is a convenient example of a tipping point in the sport for most keen paddlers. So its important to separate our comments specifically related to this board, and those that are aimed more generally at the direction the sport is taking. Some of us worry that SUP racing is going to become (indeed, perhaps already has) a highly elitist activity only suitable for a tiny minority of people. This is painful when actually SUP over the last 12 years has brought huge numbers of people into paddlesports, and indeed, any sporting activity.
This is not Nelos doing. Its just that this board, its expense, its unapologetically elitist marketing strategy etc is emblematic of wider changes within the SUP cultural landscape. So, it is going to attract observations rating to that, especially from the early adopters who took up SUP more than a decade ago and now find themselves re-skilled out of the sport (as ukgm put it). We will be asking questions such as so what - is this just another crazy-expensive elite board suitable for only a dozen people in the whole world?. These questions have also been asked of many other boards over the last 12 years or so. So try not to get defensive. Its much better that we are discussing the board rather than ignoring it, and it is hardly our fault if we havent had a chance to try it. Id try it tomorrow if I was given the chance. But I wont be. Whereas I can just go locally to a retailer and immediately try boards by eg. SIC, Fanatic, Starboard etc. And Ill be able to use them and afford them.
The other aspect is that we are questioning whether this board will suit our purposes, and what we want out of SUP. We are not elite paddlers, although we are competent relative to our peers. It seems likely that the answer is no, its not for us. And there is a bit of disappointment there because we would all like to have a really well-made board.
These are reasonable questions and discussions, and you cant go flying off the handle just because everyone doesnt see it your way. We all want different things from SUP.
And I can tell you now with a high degree of confidence that if you gathered up 100 random SUPers and put them on this board and asked them for their impressions, the overall summary is going to be: tippy, fast, light, expensive. If you want to argue that that wouldnt happen then I think you are swimming against the tide, and will just wind everyone up. But there will always be a (small) market for tippy, fast, expensive, light boards, so thats fine. It is what it is.
Post by: burchas on March 12, 2019, 06:11:53 AM
ukgm, I think it was clear I agreed with most of your findings throughout the thread and to some degree with photofr as well, on several cases. All I'm arguing is impression and perception created
by the thread and by saying that I'm mostly referring to the Signature and not the GT since this is where the thread started. As mentioned before, I believe that if the GT was first to market, we would
be having a different discussion now.
The other part of the problem is the lack of video content supporting your findings. Between a bonafide photographer and a board reviewer we haven't seen a single clip showing the board in action,
providing a compelling summary to your findings. That leaves us with 2 guys who are as far as can be from the spectrum of the average guy and that sad little video light-sup posted showing some guys
wobbling about on lake water. I can guarantee you that no potential buyer of this board is impressed by that video.
Surly there is a better way to change that perception and have the boards shine in their elements, we just haven't seen it. I hope both of you can see it as constructive criticism to the picture you're trying
to paint. There is nothing more I would like than to be supportive of a newcomer to this market with a promise of a true value but up until now they haven't done a great job. not in coverage and not
with their choices. Maybe Bruno will be their saving grace.
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on March 12, 2019, 07:51:45 AM
1) I don't think it's unreasonable for brands to make some boards that are fast but tippy and best suited to flat water and/or expert paddlers, as long as the brands also make more accessible boards for rough water and amateur paddlers.
2) It does seem that we have hit or passed "peak sup racing," and the new boards coming out every year is excessive
3) A < 10 kph average speed on a downwinder is pretty lame, suggesting an inexperienced rider, a weak effort, or poor conditions / equipment.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 12, 2019, 07:55:07 AM
Both Luc and A10 are experienced offshore paddlers and like getting out there is some decent size swell.
You are giving me too much credit. I am at the unskilled end of the scale compared to many and most of my paddling is in 15~25 knots knee to hip high messy bumps with a few rare sessions at 30 knots or over and shoulder high. That said, I do paddle almost every week-end year-round so I am likely in the "motivated" section of the spectrum. I also do change my boards from time to time so at least in the used market contribute to the circulation of the equipment. I am definitely not in the camp of buying a brand new board at full price so my contribution is more in helping to keep some resale value to last year boards rather than supporting trail-breaking.
From that point of view, if I was offered either of the Nelo board even at a great price, I would likely pass the offer as the limited information I have gathered on the boards through this forum would indicate that they would not meet my needs or rather I would not meet theirs.... :-)
I am truly sorry that this goes again Ludovic's assessment of the boards that have been really working very well for him and I sure wish him all the best in the sale of his board, just as I wish all the best for the brand as it would be good to have this type of construction offered in the market. I know that it is frustrating to have a board for sale when you are waiting for this to get your next board. I have however never represented that my opinion extended past my own circumstances nor that it should be representative of others. As such I do not think that my comments are been unethical nor unjustified.
BTW: I contacted the author of the two videos on FB and asked him about his take on the various boards from a chop and downwind point of view. I believe that he has paddled the Maliko and the Sidewinder before so it might be a useful input.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 12, 2019, 08:02:51 AM
3) A < 10 kph average speed on a downwinder is pretty lame, suggesting an inexperienced rider, a weak effort, or poor conditions / equipment.
Inconsistent wind, poor alignement of wind/bumps/direction you need to travel and messy cross-chop bumps some with little push in them would do that even to a very good paddler.
Many very experienced paddlers used to a certain type of good conditions discover this when changing spots.
This will likely be compounded by not having enough stability on the board for the conditions.
Just something to keep in mind :-)
Conditions are not always nicely aligned, clean bumps - regretfully :'( it would make it too easy and fun.
But yes a top paddler (which I believe you are from your blog and posts) would likely keep that average no matter what even taking into account paddling upwind or side-wind to get to a launch point for the DW portion or to get to the landing point.
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on March 12, 2019, 10:01:15 AM
Post by: burchas on March 12, 2019, 10:27:00 AM
Hmm, on further reflection I'm reminded of a time not too long ago where I couldn't even achieve 9 kph in difficult downwind conditions where I lacked stability. It was the beginning of the Key West classic race in 2017, I think. Trying to catch the bumps I was falling a lot and being passed by a female friend on a 12'6 who was just paddling along not even trying to catch the bumps. I should remember that and not to be such a snob. :)
That may be a wise reflection but if I'm not mistaken, you were trying to do that on your 23" wide board and in that case, your previous assessment still holds.
It was poor choice of equipment for that specific task and since then is seems like you found the right board for the job in the Flacon. Last I checked you were flying.
Post by: ukgm on March 12, 2019, 12:56:02 PM
3) A < 10 kph average speed on a downwinder is pretty lame, suggesting an inexperienced rider, a weak effort, or poor conditions / equipment.
Not necessarily - your suggested reasons are negative or derogatory. Youd need some context of the session. It may not have been a constant effort, there may have been some breaks, etc. In the case of the video, it should be acknowledged that the paddler is an ex C1 national squad member and his max speed in that video was 23.3. Id suggest that both pieces of information infer that he is of a decent standard.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 12, 2019, 01:16:38 PM
BTW: I contacted the author of the two videos on FB and asked him about his take on the various boards from a chop and downwind point of view. I believe that he has paddled the Maliko and the Sidewinder before so it might be a useful input.
He said that he is still testing the board in different conditions but cannot yet share his impression with the public.
He also confirmed that he is a SUP racer so it should clarify that he is a very good paddler at a minimum and an experienced open ocean or down-winder likely. Just going for a high wind 19 km down-wind on your own should prove that he is confident in his abilities. Arguably even more so with a new board that is an unknown quantity. So we might have soon comments from a fourth user with a range from 130 lbs (springy Ludovic) to 210 lbs (trimmed UGKM) :-)
Post by: ukgm on March 12, 2019, 02:14:30 PM
BTW: I contacted the author of the two videos on FB and asked him about his take on the various boards from a chop and downwind point of view. I believe that he has paddled the Maliko and the Sidewinder before so it might be a useful input.
He said that he is still testing the board in different conditions but cannot yet share his impression with the public.
He also confirmed that he is a SUP racer so it should clarify that he is a very good paddler at a minimum and an experienced open ocean or down-winder likely. Just going for a high wind 19 km down-wind on your own should prove that he is confident in his abilities. Arguably even more so with a new board that is an unknown quantity. So we might have soon comments from a fourth user with a range from 130 lbs (springy Ludovic) to 210 lbs (trimmed UGKM) :-)
Yep Z is a good person to talk to. He's done a stint on pretty much every major brands race team going. He also gave me a good thrashing on recent lab strength tests as we were both subjects in a study (although I got my revenge on the vo2 max ramp test 8) )
Post by: Area 10 on March 12, 2019, 02:27:55 PM
Post by: Luc Benac on March 12, 2019, 02:59:51 PM
Post by: burchas on March 12, 2019, 03:19:38 PM
Well at least it is not a trashing on the ring or the cage. I know that you British guys are still trying to get the viking and saxon out of you and like a good punch out :) :) :)Judging by the amount of beating they get here in the Zone their threshold seems to be off the charts. We may need to try harder, that's what good friends do ;D
Post by: burchas on March 12, 2019, 03:22:47 PM
So we might have soon comments from a fourth user with a range from 130 lbs (springy Ludovic) to 210 lbs (trimmed UGKM) :-)
Secretly I refer to them as the Phantom and the Phenom respectively :P
Post by: ukgm on March 12, 2019, 03:38:55 PM
ukgm - that slip of a lad beat you in strength tests???! How on earth will you live that down. Those guns of yours are all for show not go, eh? :) :) ;)
Being 6ft 3, I got stuffed by him in the max press-ups, wide grip pull up's and the sit up's (long levers don't do well in those). Mind you, I held my own in the squat tests and put him to the sword completely in the cycle-based V02 max ramp test (since i'd finished to him 2nd all night long I didn't have the heart to tell him that cycling was my first sport ;D).
Z and I will both be borrowing Lightsignatures for the upcoming national sprint champs. I'm still injured so having to rely on surf ski paddling for it but I've got him down for a medal as a minimum.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 12, 2019, 06:55:59 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADBFzqL7hU0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADBFzqL7hU0)
Post by: Area 10 on March 12, 2019, 07:12:03 PM
Post by: Jacko on March 13, 2019, 04:09:42 PM
Give me a Storm 2.0 or EVO 2.0 any day in the DW or bumpy water!!
Post by: Luc Benac on March 13, 2019, 04:34:50 PM
Trying to use a flat water board for DW is so unpractical for 99.9% of riders and even the top pros who might be able to do it will be having no fun at all. I watch good guys paddle boards like the sprint DW all the time and yes they can be fast IF you are good enough but it just looks and i know from experience it also feels pretty average.
Many here will agree with you and some will disagree with what should be considered a good board for down-winding and where to draw the line :-)
Give me a Storm 2.0 or EVO 2.0 any day in the DW or bumpy water!!
That should be pretty easy! I am sure that the owners of ONE sup will let you have one :-)
Talking of which are you bringing an EVO 2.0 in a decent width to the Canadian Downwind Championship this summer?
Post by: Jacko on March 13, 2019, 06:40:20 PM
Trying to use a flat water board for DW is so unpractical for 99.9% of riders and even the top pros who might be able to do it will be having no fun at all. I watch good guys paddle boards like the sprint DW all the time and yes they can be fast IF you are good enough but it just looks and i know from experience it also feels pretty average.
Many here will agree with you and some will disagree with what should be considered a good board for down-winding and where to draw the line :-)Give me a Storm 2.0 or EVO 2.0 any day in the DW or bumpy water!!
That should be pretty easy! I am sure that the owners of ONE sup will let you have one :-)
Talking of which are you bringing an EVO 2.0 in a decent width to the Canadian Downwind Championship this summer?
Haha no free boards here at ONE and even i have to buy mine but i like it this way!
Yeah David and Peter have a bunch of 14 x 26 and 28 EVO 2.0 boards getting made so i am sure they will have a bunch as demo's, now i just need to get a few Hollow boards in there as well and you all will have heaps to test out!!
Post by: burchas on March 13, 2019, 08:47:14 PM
Trying to use a flat water board for DW is so unpractical for 99.9% of riders and even the top pros who might be able to do it will be having no fun at all. I watch good guys paddle boards like the sprint DW all the time and yes they can be fast IF you are good enough but it just looks and i know from experience it also feels pretty average.
Many here will agree with you and some will disagree with what should be considered a good board for down-winding and where to draw the line :-)Give me a Storm 2.0 or EVO 2.0 any day in the DW or bumpy water!!
That should be pretty easy! I am sure that the owners of ONE sup will let you have one :-)
Talking of which are you bringing an EVO 2.0 in a decent width to the Canadian Downwind Championship this summer?
Haha no free boards here at ONE and even i have to buy mine but i like it this way!
Yeah David and Peter have a bunch of 14 x 26 and 28 EVO 2.0 boards getting made so i am sure they will have a bunch as demo's, now i just need to get a few Hollow boards in there as well and you all will have heaps to test out!!
Just make sure to bring some of the hollow ones to Hood River. I'll call ahead put my name on one.
Post by: Area 10 on March 14, 2019, 07:37:45 AM
Post by: Luc Benac on March 14, 2019, 07:54:06 AM
Hey, burchas - a bit off-topic but have you seen many Hood River people switch from the 14ft Bullet V2 to the 14ft Bayonet for DW? Or are they just staying with the Bullet?
Easy to fix, now it is back on topic - in a roundabout way :-)
have you seen many Hood River people switch from the 14ft Bullet V2 to the 14ft Bayonet or the Nelo boards for DW?
New board envy making you twitch a little :-)
Post by: Area 10 on March 14, 2019, 08:15:56 AM
Oh thats very good... :) Yes, do we think that the people of Hood River will be tempted by this new Nelo, or will they stick with the Bullet 14v2 or maybe move from one of those to a Bayonet 14 instead? :)Hey, burchas - a bit off-topic but have you seen many Hood River people switch from the 14ft Bullet V2 to the 14ft Bayonet for DW? Or are they just staying with the Bullet?
Easy to fix, now it is back on topic - in a roundabout way :-)
have you seen many Hood River people switch from the 14ft Bullet V2 to the 14ft Bayonet or the Nelo boards for DW?
New board envy making you twitch a little :-)
Post by: burchas on March 14, 2019, 01:45:36 PM
Hey, burchas - a bit off-topic but have you seen many Hood River people switch from the 14ft Bullet V2 to the 14ft Bayonet for DW? Or are they just staying with the Bullet?
Common sense tell me that most people with V2 will stick with it if they only have choice of one board. It will cover more conditions than the Bayonet.
Big Winds pretty much corroborated this. Many people actually went with the RS just because of versatility. Infinity downtown was dropped from their
line-up this year, which comes as no surprise to me based on my experience.
For those slow to moderate days when you really want to maximize fun factor, I don't think anything surpasses the Bayonet.
Post by: JEG on March 14, 2019, 01:45:58 PM
Trying to use a flat water board for DW is so unpractical for 99.9% of riders and even the top pros who might be able to do it will be having no fun at all. I watch good guys paddle boards like the sprint DW all the time and yes they can be fast IF you are good enough but it just looks and i know from experience it also feels pretty average.
Give me a Storm 2.0 or EVO 2.0 any day in the DW or bumpy water!!
I saw a pro surf and dw a flat water board therefore, I can do it then I realized I'm a beginner and I bought the wrong tool for the job :D
Post by: Area 10 on March 14, 2019, 02:09:11 PM
Interesting. In that case there must be something pretty special about the range of DW conditions I get near me because on at least one of the courses near me the Bullet V2 really didnt work at all (the Bullet V1 actually works more here). So if the Bayonets range of use is even narrower than the Bv2 then its not for me.Hey, burchas - a bit off-topic but have you seen many Hood River people switch from the 14ft Bullet V2 to the 14ft Bayonet for DW? Or are they just staying with the Bullet?
Common sense tell me that most people with V2 will stick with it if they only have choice of one board. It will cover more conditions than the Bayonet.
Big Winds pretty much corroborated this. Many people actually went with the RS just because of versatility. Infinity downtown was dropped from their
line-up this year, which comes as no surprise to me based on my experience.
For those slow to moderate days when you really want to maximize fun factor, I don't think anything surpasses the Bayonet.
Jacko is dead right about all-out speed being only one way to measure the downwind ability of a board. And for most people it wont be the most important one. More critical characteristics would be e.g. surfability and ease of bump-catching.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 14, 2019, 02:24:43 PM
More critical characteristics would be e.g. ease of bump-catching.
And you can say that again, and over again, and then one more time just to be sure :-)
Post by: burchas on March 14, 2019, 03:04:48 PM
Interesting. In that case there must be something pretty special about the range of DW conditions I get near me because on at least one of the courses near me the Bullet V2 really didnt work at all (the Bullet V1 actually works more here). So if the Bayonets range of use is even narrower than the Bv2 then its not for me.Hey, burchas - a bit off-topic but have you seen many Hood River people switch from the 14ft Bullet V2 to the 14ft Bayonet for DW? Or are they just staying with the Bullet?
Common sense tell me that most people with V2 will stick with it if they only have choice of one board. It will cover more conditions than the Bayonet.
Big Winds pretty much corroborated this. Many people actually went with the RS just because of versatility. Infinity downtown was dropped from their
line-up this year, which comes as no surprise to me based on my experience.
For those slow to moderate days when you really want to maximize fun factor, I don't think anything surpasses the Bayonet.
Jacko is dead right about all-out speed being only one way to measure the downwind ability of a board. And for most people it wont be the most important one. More critical characteristics would be e.g. surfability and ease of bump-catching.
Yes, it may very well suck in your conditions. I have few spots in mind that I wouldn't like the Bayonet but then again, I'm not a big fan of the V2 either. As expected I'll end up with a custom.
As for bump catching, Bayonet is by far the best board I've ever tried. Not so much on surfability though, at least not for me.
Post by: Area 10 on March 14, 2019, 03:32:22 PM
Post by: burchas on March 14, 2019, 03:35:40 PM
Id like a lower volume version of the Bayonet.
You're describing the V3
Post by: Area 10 on March 14, 2019, 03:55:36 PM
Mmm... sounds good.Id like a lower volume version of the Bayonet.
You're describing the V3
Mind you, Id like a 16ft version of the Naish Maliko too.
Post by: burchas on March 14, 2019, 04:07:14 PM
Mmm... sounds good.Id like a lower volume version of the Bayonet.
You're describing the V3
Mind you, Id like a 16ft version of the Naish Maliko too.
Who doesn't :)
Post by: Luc Benac on March 14, 2019, 04:16:01 PM
Post by: JEG on March 14, 2019, 04:27:08 PM
SIC V3, really?
the bump rider was a good shape but I found the rail also was too thick and like most thick rails it's fast on the glide but a boat to turn and maybe I need to work on my footwork moves.
burchas, you said the Infinity downtown was dropped from their line-up this year, which comes as no surprise to me based on my experience. Can you tell us more about the downtown, maybe its too light to dw or was it the design not there yet compared to others that have been around? What do you think of the JL rail?
Post by: JEG on March 14, 2019, 04:35:48 PM
Post by: BrentP on March 14, 2019, 04:40:57 PM
we need to take this dw discussion somewhere else :)
burchas, you said the Infinity downtown was dropped from their line-up this year, which comes as no surprise to me based on my experience. Can you tell us more about the downtown, maybe its too light to dw or was it the design not there yet compared to others that have been around? What do you of the JL rail?
Burchas is wrong i got the chance to paddle the 2019 dugout version Downtown a few weeks back some refinement updates and 3lbs lighter from 2018 (28lbs last year) nice board. Dave B, Shae Foudy and more of the crew were all on them on our local DW run.
Post by: burchas on March 14, 2019, 04:47:56 PM
we need to take this dw discussion somewhere else :)
burchas, you said the Infinity downtown was dropped from their line-up this year, which comes as no surprise to me based on my experience. Can you tell us more about the downtown, maybe its too light to dw or was it the design not there yet compared to others that have been around? What do you of the JL rail?
Burchas is wrong i got the chance to paddle the 2019 dugout version Downtown a few weeks back some refinement updates and 3lbs lighter from 2018 (28lbs last year) nice board. Dave B, Shae Foudy and more of the crew were all on them on our local DW run.
What did you expect them to ride, SIC ;D
But don't tell me that, tell it to Big Winds. They after all decided to drop it, I'm sure they know something I don't
Post by: burchas on March 14, 2019, 05:02:33 PM
we need to take this dw discussion somewhere else :)
SIC V3, really?
the bump rider was a good shape but I found the rail also was too thick and like most thick rails it's fast on the glide but a boat to turn and maybe I need to work on my footwork moves.
burchas, you said the Infinity downtown was dropped from their line-up this year, which comes as no surprise to me based on my experience. Can you tell us more about the downtown, maybe its too light to dw or was it the design not there yet compared to others that have been around? What do you think of the JL rail?
My experience with the Downtown is limited to Hood River, which is very specific. I rode both the 25" and 27". the 25" felt much better but paled in comparison to the Bayonet in catching bumps
on the slow conditions I tested it.
Who knows maybe BrentP is right and in the California conditions it really shines. We've seen DK78 ripping on this board so it might be yet another condition specific like the Bayonet.
Post by: burchas on March 14, 2019, 05:16:11 PM
the bump rider was a good shape but I found the rail also was too thick and like most thick rails it's fast on the glide but a boat to turn and maybe I need to work on my footwork moves.
Bump Rider definitely needs good footwork (working on that), but probably one of the best surfers of all mentioned
https://youtu.be/d765mepxSIo
Post by: Luc Benac on March 14, 2019, 07:28:39 PM
Many people actually went with the RS just because of versatility.
For those slow to moderate days when you really want to maximize fun factor, I don't think anything surpasses the Bayonet.
Do you mean because the RS would cover flat and light conditions very well and the V2 would cover medium and higher? So people have bypassed the Bayonet?
We have so many days that do not deliver as expected and stuck with lower than expected wind but residual big messy cross chop. I am not sure that the Bayonet would still fare as good in these messy conditions when a good balance become part of the equation.
i.e.
quiver #1
RS
Bayonet
Bullet V1
quiver #2
RS
Bullet V2
but nobody is really considering RS and Bayonet only or Bayonet and Bullet 2 only
Post by: burchas on March 14, 2019, 08:25:50 PM
Many people actually went with the RS just because of versatility.
For those slow to moderate days when you really want to maximize fun factor, I don't think anything surpasses the Bayonet.
Do you mean because the RS would cover flat and light conditions very well and the V2 would cover medium and higher? So people have bypassed the Bayonet?
That's the impression I got from Big Winds. If you had a V2 and looking for a board to cover everything other than medium/big downwind what would you buy?
I'd say Maliko/RS will fit the bill much better than Bayonet. For those who are downwind focused I can see V2/Bayonet combo to cover them.
Post by: photofr on March 15, 2019, 01:26:49 AM
I can totally see this board excel on the next Morbihan Paddle Trophy (usually taking place on a 20k course, with tides and wind at your back - and countless needs to sprint.)
Quick note:
Perhaps when I provided the list below, I should have written DOWNBREEZE instead of SMALL DOWNWIND, but the idea remains the same for those who read it until the end
.
Flat water: 9/10 (higher if it had less rocker)
Sprints: 9.9/10 (it's just a blast)
General Ocean Paddling: 9.5/10 (because it's got just the right amount of rocker to make it really fun)
Upwind: 9/10
Small downwind: 8/10
Messy conditions: 7.5/10 (higher score if the paddler is more competent than I)
Bigger downwind: doable, but not necessarily aimed at bigger conditions.
When working for Nelo, I did notice that they marketing / communication department is lacking fundamentals. I don't always agree with their strategies... Clearly, we all feel that there should be more images.
Here's to paddling in the Gorges du Verdon (in Winter).
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Portfolio/France-Landscapes/i-hwFs7Sg/0/1166dd87/L/6820-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/Portfolio/France-Landscapes/i-hwFs7Sg/A)
Post by: ukgm on March 15, 2019, 09:46:07 AM
Post by: Luc Benac on March 15, 2019, 10:28:12 AM
Well Bruno won his first race on the board (in Israel). Soft opposition for him but at least hes come out swinging.
The board is very light so he has no problem swinging it around I am sure...
Post by: Area 10 on March 15, 2019, 01:26:46 PM
Well Bruno won his first race on the board (in Israel). Soft opposition for him but at least hes come out swinging.Hes come out as a swinger? Well, thats one way to scare off the opposition I guess.
Post by: burchas on March 16, 2019, 05:55:57 AM
Well Bruno won his first race on the board (in Israel). Soft opposition for him but at least hes come out swinging.
He took both technical and distance on what seems to be a Black Signature 2 14x22 but interestingly lost in the sprints to a local guy on a Mistral
Post by: Area 10 on March 16, 2019, 06:46:36 AM
Interesting. So much for weight being the most critical factor in short sprints. But Bruno is a distance guy really, isnt he?Well Bruno won his first race on the board (in Israel). Soft opposition for him but at least hes come out swinging.
He took both technical and distance on what seems to be a Black Signature 2 14x22 but interestingly lost in the sprints to a local guy on a Mistral
But Id far rather be on a planing hull design like the Mistral Equinox than a convex hull design like the Signature 2.0 in a short sprint.
Post by: burchas on March 16, 2019, 07:08:07 AM
Interesting. So much for weight being the most critical factor in short sprints. But Bruno is a distance guy really, isnt he?Well Bruno won his first race on the board (in Israel). Soft opposition for him but at least hes come out swinging.
He took both technical and distance on what seems to be a Black Signature 2 14x22 but interestingly lost in the sprints to a local guy on a Mistral
But Id far rather be on a planing hull design like the Mistral Equinox than a convex hull design like the Signature 2.0 in a short sprint.
It was a Mistral Vortex rather. Wasn't too clear but second place seems to be a Starboard All Star, it looked like a photo finish with Bruno
Post by: Luc Benac on March 16, 2019, 07:28:50 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHO4W8oAsLc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHO4W8oAsLc)
Post by: burchas on March 16, 2019, 07:44:33 AM
Post by: Luc Benac on March 16, 2019, 07:47:29 AM
Yes, saw that. I think he's on this thread :)
Sorry for the repeat then, they just released it a few hours ago on YouTube so I assumed it was new. Not that there is anything we don't already know in it anyway.
Post by: Area 10 on March 16, 2019, 09:47:36 AM
Looks like we were in advance of the press :-):A reasonable assessment, although theres a couple of things that one might argue with. For instance, a large part of the stability of the RS comes from the tail volume. Speed in flat water too from reduction of pitching. And Im not sure about a pintail (and therefore more rounded profile) being slower than having a big fat ass and parallel rails because of water release. Instead, straight rails help with tracking, which helps with speed, and as already mentioned, if you get the rocker and volume distribution relative to the nose correct you can reduce pitching and therefore tail drag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHO4W8oAsLc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHO4W8oAsLc)
Anyhow, for gear junkies like me, these reviews are very helpful.
What I really wanted to see was either of these boards (or both) compared to the Bayonet though. The Bayonet is the design about which everyone knows least, by far.
Btw, how good do these SIC boards look? Theyve got FUN written all over them.
Post by: Area 10 on March 16, 2019, 10:00:11 AM
The Vortex is an interesting design with the kinda reverse bow. But I think the underside is still basically a flat planing surface rather than the Nelos convex hull? So my point may still stand.Interesting. So much for weight being the most critical factor in short sprints. But Bruno is a distance guy really, isnt he?Well Bruno won his first race on the board (in Israel). Soft opposition for him but at least hes come out swinging.
He took both technical and distance on what seems to be a Black Signature 2 14x22 but interestingly lost in the sprints to a local guy on a Mistral
But Id far rather be on a planing hull design like the Mistral Equinox than a convex hull design like the Signature 2.0 in a short sprint.
It was a Mistral Vortex rather. Wasn't too clear but second place seems to be a Starboard All Star, it looked like a photo finish with Bruno
(Presumably that Vortex was a lot wider than the Lightcorp/Nelo?)
And obviously the All Star is a long way from being convex too.
But it may be that Bruno just had a bad race or isnt a sprinter, I guess. Or was saving himself for the main two races. It looks like the sprints were just a bit of fun?
The Mistral designs are very effective for racing. And the 14x26 Vortex is only 9.7kgs.
Did Amandine win the womens race by a bigger margin than Bruno won the mens?
Post by: burchas on March 16, 2019, 11:28:32 AM
The Vortex is an interesting design with the kinda reverse bow. But I think the underside is still basically a flat planing surface rather than the Nelos convex hull? So my point may still stand.
(Presumably that Vortex was a lot wider than the Lightcorp/Nelo?)
And obviously the All Star is a long way from being convex too.
But it may be that Bruno just had a bad race or isnt a sprinter, I guess. Or was saving himself for the main two races. It looks like the sprints were just a bit of fun?
The Mistral designs are very effective for racing. And the 14x26 Vortex is only 9.7kgs.
Did Amandine win the womens race by a bigger margin than Bruno won the mens?
All good points. And the guy who beat him, The Israeli Champ, is no slouch by any means. Did 56min in a 10k open water race.
Details are somewhat scattered though, didn't dig much into it.
Post by: JEG on March 16, 2019, 03:57:58 PM
56min in a 10k open water race is fa-fast & what was he on redbull?
Post by: Luc Benac on March 16, 2019, 05:36:30 PM
Post by: Luc Benac on March 16, 2019, 05:45:03 PM
No paint, no hair, new board and weird paddle (it looks painful) :-)
Post by: burchas on March 16, 2019, 06:00:33 PM
I guess somebody is starting a new life....
No paint, no hair, new board and weird paddle (it looks painful) :-)
You went a little North, it's the Red Sea rather. On the Dead Sea there is zero room for errors,
a fall will be very painful.
Post by: Area 10 on March 16, 2019, 06:50:39 PM
I guess somebody is starting a new life....Thats a really crappy looking paddle for SUP. Like something they used to use in the early days of SUP when they were using canoe blades with long handles. Maybe this accounts for his average sprint race showing.
No paint, no hair, new board and weird paddle (it looks painful) :-)
And I have to say that at least from that angle, it looks like a real Frankenstein board.
Do hollow boards heat up in the sun less than foam ones? Is that whats going on here with the all-black look?
Post by: burchas on March 16, 2019, 06:55:43 PM
Thats a really crappy looking paddle for SUP... And I have to say that at least from that angle, it looks like a real Frankenstein board.
You just like pushing those buttons, don't you? Must be a slow night in the Kingdom ;D
Post by: Area 10 on March 16, 2019, 07:14:18 PM
Yep ;)Thats a really crappy looking paddle for SUP... And I have to say that at least from that angle, it looks like a real Frankenstein board.
You just like pushing those buttons, don't you? Must be a slow night in the Kingdom ;D
But tell me Im wrong :)
Is this going to become the official ICF-accredited board? :)
From the ICF SUP Race Directors handbook 2021 (maybe): boards must have a maximum weight of 9.5kgs and have a convex hull....
Post by: burchas on March 16, 2019, 08:04:29 PM
Yep ;)Thats a really crappy looking paddle for SUP... And I have to say that at least from that angle, it looks like a real Frankenstein board.
You just like pushing those buttons, don't you? Must be a slow night in the Kingdom ;D
But tell me Im wrong :)
Is this going to become the official ICF-accredited board? :)
From the ICF SUP Race Directors handbook 2021 (maybe): boards must have a maximum weight of 9.5kgs and have a convex hull....
Well, I know someone with the same board and the same exact paddle who would find this observation rather offensive ;)
But this thread is moving so fast, there is a real chance he missed that comment or I'll be waking up to a TL;DR
Post by: Luc Benac on March 16, 2019, 10:00:03 PM
On the Dead Sea there is zero room for errors,
a fall will be very painful.
Nobody falls on a Nero board.....
Post by: photofr on March 17, 2019, 02:12:53 AM
Interesting. So much for weight being the most critical factor in short sprints. But Bruno is a distance guy really, isnt he?Well Bruno won his first race on the board (in Israel). Soft opposition for him but at least hes come out swinging.
He took both technical and distance on what seems to be a Black Signature 2 14x22 but interestingly lost in the sprints to a local guy on a Mistral
But Id far rather be on a planing hull design like the Mistral Equinox than a convex hull design like the Signature 2.0 in a short sprint.
Kind of a far fetched statement, no?
While board weight plays a big part in short sprints, I don't think that anyone would ever stretch that to be the most critical factor - EVER.
There are 1/2 a dozen other factors that may have contributed to Bruno not getting first place in the sprints:
1. Sprints may or may not be his thing. Bruno didn't place so well at the Lost Mills Sprints, against some of the best in the World.
2. He's still on what I would consider "a new board for him".
3. First race on a new board, I would have played it "cool" on the somewhat meaningless sprints - in light of the bigger race coming up.
4. He may just not be "feeling it" on that day.
So when someone says that board weight is pretty important and should never be ignored - some people see this as:
"weight being the most critical factor in short sprints". Wow, I mean WOW!
Post by: Area 10 on March 17, 2019, 02:32:18 AM
Im sorry to see Naish winding down their commitment to SUP racing. Since the whole format of our racing (eg. board lengths) was so much determined by the battles between Naish and Starboard in the early days of SUP, it feels like something has changed. Maybe the change will be for the better.
This year, at one of the biggest U.K. SUP races (the Head of the Dart), there are more competitors on inflatables than hard boards currently registered. So thats one huge change that has occurred over the last few years (especially the last 3 or so).
Inflatables getting cheaper; hard boards getting more expensive; inflatables outnumbering hard boards in races. Hmm...
Post by: photofr on March 17, 2019, 02:39:10 AM
Braca has been my go-to paddle for my surfski - for many years.
I have been paddling the Braca Maui for nearly two years* - and haven't looked back since.
WHO ARE THEY?
Braca is Worldwide-renown for innovations as well as always placing well on a variety of podiums. Better yet, they make paddles that are super durable, ultra light, and very efficient. Sadly, no one is reporting on the brand (for SUP or for Surfski or Flat Water Paddling). Their motto is to simply let their innovation win and sell itself (and that's about the only thing I don't agree with from Braca).
DISCLAIMER:
As a reminder, I no longer represent Braca in France, and I am not at all affiliated with Braca at this time.
FEEDBACK
Here are some simple facts & feedbacks on how I see this "Braca paddle for SUP" - specifically, after using the Maui blade & Soft shaft for nearly two years*.
1. Very efficient
2. One of the lightest on the market
3. Fantastic grip in the water - without blowing a shoulder
WEIRD
The thing that I find weird about this paddle is that Bruno has decided to go with what seems to be the largest size for a blade. I went with the smallest one of them all (which really helps with stability, amongst other things).
THE BEST?
Is there a better paddle out there?
There's only one other paddle in the World that I would vouch for with my eyes closed: QB (but for almost twice the money).
PHOTO
No, the Braca Maui paddle has nothing to do with the archaic paddles that some people refer to in this forum. Here's a photo that may explain why this paddle grabs water so well... (sort of a different point of view from a camera).
(https://photos.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-Feb-07-Braca-Maui-SUP-Paddles/i-bGSvMmK/0/e9d614ad/X2/7798-X2.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-Feb-07-Braca-Maui-SUP-Paddles/i-bGSvMmK/A)
(*) CORRECTION
- I have used the Braca Maui paddle since Dec 2017 (so not quite 2 years yet)
Post by: Area 10 on March 17, 2019, 05:22:38 AM
Ive seen quite a few people put holes in their boards in races with their paddles. But maybe if they were on Nelo boards that wouldnt happen, eh? ;)
Post by: Luc Benac on March 17, 2019, 07:24:30 AM
Im sorry to see Naish winding down their commitment to SUP racing.
As long as they keep their commitment to serious paddlers and keep a line of performance hard boards like the Maliko with a good construction and an affordable price.
Now if they go to inflatable only then....
Post by: Area 10 on March 17, 2019, 08:25:51 AM
Well, Naish have pretty much cornered the market for low volume all-round race/fitness/tour boards with the Maliko. There arent many rivals (the Sidewinder is the most obvious one). So I would have thought that that will keep the sales respectable, and allow them to put the name on their racing inflatables, where there is probably more money to be made.Im sorry to see Naish winding down their commitment to SUP racing.
As long as they keep their commitment to serious paddlers and keep a line of performance hard boards like the Maliko with a good construction and an affordable price.
Now if they go to inflatable only then....
What Id like Naish to do would be to bring out an equivalent of the Sunova Search, only with a bit of extra surfability thrown in. They kinda dropped the 12ft surf-type distance board when they dropped the original Glide 12: the replacement was a bit too odd and heavy and it pretty much killed the format. But lots of people would find a rather gunny low-volume 12ft do-everything-but-especially surf board appealing right now, I think. Anyway, thats straying from the topic quite a bit. Maybe in time, Lightcorp will design a 12ft do-it-all gun with mass appeal....
Post by: Luc Benac on March 17, 2019, 08:36:09 AM
And that is something that could work well with the hollow construction of Nelo. They just have to go wider and make some nicer, cleaner lines. Simple is best.
Post by: mrbig on March 17, 2019, 09:25:07 AM
Post by: Area 10 on March 17, 2019, 10:12:30 AM
SIC F12 wide stable it surfs well, and can even be used in the 12' and under surf class with gumbies like me!Very nice board. But a bit more volume and weight than Im thinking of, at 120″ x 30″ x 6.1″€ 265L, 24lbs. Im thinking more of 12x30x5 200L and 21lbs, with a bit more rocker.
Post by: mrbig on March 17, 2019, 10:13:25 AM
Bonus - US Distributor in Wayland MA USA!
No affiliation, but it is nice to actually be able to get some EURO gear if you want for a change!
Post by: mrbig on March 17, 2019, 10:19:33 AM
It seems like the manufacturers are focusing on, how shall we say, higher margin light weight boards, so some RacerBoy and RacerGirl will buy a new one every season!
Post by: mrbig on March 17, 2019, 10:19:59 AM
It seems like the manufacturers are focusing on, how shall we say, higher margin light weight boards, so some RacerBoy and RacerGirl will buy a new one every season!
Apologies for the double post. Used to be able to trick it by posting a huge pic file.
Delete post? Admin? Why not?
Post by: burchas on March 17, 2019, 10:34:35 AM
...lots of people would find a rather gunny low-volume 12ft do-everything-but-especially surf board appealing right now...
I'll echo that. It could be a one board quiver for many imo. Unfortunately, it seems Naish will follow pack and introduce a dugout
for the next season.
Post by: Area 10 on March 17, 2019, 11:26:35 AM
A10, Is there one out there at that weight?Well, that was my point. There are very few boards like that. But the weight isnt critical as long as its under about 25lbs for a board with that volume. I think that most manufacturers should replace their longest spoon-nosed longboard for a board a little longer but with a gun-type outline. Most people buying a longboard for genuine longboard surfing these days want something 9-11ft. A 12ft gun-outline board thats plenty stable and not too heavy (and surfs well) would appeal to more folks I think than the 11-6 longboard many of them currently have in their range.
It seems like the manufacturers are focusing on, how shall we say, higher margin light weight boards, so some RacerBoy and RacerGirl will buy a new one every season!
Post by: robon on March 17, 2019, 03:35:46 PM
I would not mind a performance/fast light touring board. A kind of Glide Light or Javelin de-tuned. Pretty much a SIC RS with a tad less volume but without the race moniker to it, so it becomes available on the second hand market :-)
And that is something that could work well with the hollow construction of Nelo. They just have to go wider and make some nicer, cleaner lines. Simple is best.
The JL Sidewinder 14 x 27 has a bit less volume than the SIC RS 14 x 26 and would be very close to the same weight in the more durable signature construction. Just no used ones popping up in BC yet. The Sunova Allwater 14 x 27 may be a bit more volume than what you would want. I noticed Sunova has a new touring/expedition board in multiple widths that Norm Hann helped develop. The 14 x 28.5 would probably be a fairly quick touring board but is higher volume.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 17, 2019, 04:08:47 PM
I would not mind a performance/fast light touring board. A kind of Glide Light or Javelin de-tuned. Pretty much a SIC RS with a tad less volume but without the race moniker to it, so it becomes available on the second hand market :-)
And that is something that could work well with the hollow construction of Nelo. They just have to go wider and make some nicer, cleaner lines. Simple is best.
The JL Sidewinder 14 x 27 has a bit less volume than the SIC RS 14 x 26 and would be very close to the same weight in the more durable signature construction. Just no used ones popping up in BC yet. The Sunova Allwater 14 x 27 may be a bit more volume than what you would want. I noticed Sunova has a new touring/expedition board in multiple widths that Norm Hann helped develop. The 14 x 28.5 would probably be a fairly quick touring board but is higher volume.
I was paddling with Norm this morning and he mentioned that he really like the touring board even in 28.5. the nose profile is less deep than their other board, which I like.
There is also some talk for the AllAround (orange nose, flat deck) to lower the deck so the thing doe snot feel like a bloody cork. I wanted to try the touring board in 27" but the weight has been stopping me. This year it look slike the weight is considerable down so....
Post by: photofr on March 18, 2019, 12:16:58 AM
Well, I guess it will be another product that most of us will be we get to try, so you can say what you like about it. But Im general a paddle like that would have a very sharp catch (which isnt universally popular) and quite a few people dont like soft shafts (Im not sure why, within reason). But one of the things I dont like about blades that blade shape that many people might not consider is that you can really do some damage to your board (or you) with it if you make a mistake (eg. changing hands, or scratching for a wave) - those sharp blade corners can do some real damage. I think this is one of the reasons that surf-oriented paddles have tended to have more rounded shapes than race ones. If you are paddling pure flat water of course this probably wont matter because screw-ups are so rare. But in the hurly-burly of surf or downwind, (or even some congested race conditions) stuff happens.
Ive seen quite a few people put holes in their boards in races with their paddles. But maybe if they were on Nelo boards that wouldnt happen, eh? ;)
While this is true, I see the performance of the Braca paddle as "so worth it". Every time we go out, we do risk damaging our equipment (biking, skiing, kiting, SUP - all the same in that regards). The key is to weigh the pros and cons.
After all, why limit our performance because we think we may put a scratch or two on our boards?
Are we also saying that a sharp fins and / or foils shouldn't be used because it could put a hole in our skin or other boards?
Post by: photofr on March 18, 2019, 12:19:06 AM
I would not mind a performance/fast light touring board. A kind of Glide Light or Javelin de-tuned. Pretty much a SIC RS with a tad less volume but without the race moniker to it, so it becomes available on the second hand market :-)
And that is something that could work well with the hollow construction of Nelo. They just have to go wider and make some nicer, cleaner lines. Simple is best.
Pure physics limitations will make it extremely difficult to create a hollow board that's: light, strong - but also LOW VOLUME.
Post by: photofr on March 18, 2019, 12:28:44 AM
Photofr, Mahalos for info on Braca paddles. They have added a model in a teardrop shape which now goes down to very small sizes!
Bonus - US Distributor in Wayland MA USA!
No affiliation, but it is nice to actually be able to get some EURO gear if you want for a change!
Hey Mr. Big!
Welcome.
The Kahana model is in fact a tear drop model. It actually came out a year BEFORE the Maui model. I tried it in two sizes and paddled it for about 7 months. While it may suit other paddlers, I have to admit that I didn't like it. Here are my reasons:
- The blade was the second stiffest thing I have ever used in my life.
- The blade and shaft didn't have an harmonious behaviour regarding their flex.
The Kahana paddle couldn't be more opposite of the latest model: the Braca Maui.
Overall, it was unpleasant (for me) for long distance paddling - which is what I love the most.
Aloha -
Post by: ukgm on March 18, 2019, 12:45:22 AM
...lots of people would find a rather gunny low-volume 12ft do-everything-but-especially surf board appealing right now...
Unfortunately, it seems Naish will follow pack and introduce a dugout for the next season.
How do you figure that ? My understanding is that are reducing or pulling out of the more niche aspects of the sport. If they aren't willing to even maintain their flatwater board range from an existing blank design, they are not going to create a new board for a market that is as small (if not smaller) surely ?
Post by: ukgm on March 18, 2019, 12:47:06 AM
Now if they go to inflatable only then....
Given they have done a lot of press recently regarding their new Maliko inflatable, I think they are waking up to where the recreational market is heading. I nearly bought one but the colourway was awful. Who the hell uses grey.............
Post by: ukgm on March 18, 2019, 12:52:43 AM
Inflatables getting cheaper; hard boards getting more expensive; inflatables outnumbering hard boards in races. Hmm...
I've just sold all of my boards, ordered a new ski and ordered an inflatable starboard Allstar so I can race the odd event in the inflatable class if I feel the urge. :o
The key thing about that Dart statistic isn't that there are more inflatable than hard though - it's not the technology we should be focused on. When you look at the trends, its more interesting to note that hardboard open class has grown by a considerably smaller rate than the 'challenge/leisure' class (which is mainly made up of inflatables). At that race in particular, it's because for every new paddler the hardboard class attracts, the class loses some of its more longstanding paddlers who are bored or want something else. Most of the regular top 10 paddlers from the last 4-5 years still paddle SUP but don't travel to races any more.
Post by: photofr on March 18, 2019, 01:02:42 AM
Top racers moving away from racing...
More hollow boards on the market...
Current SUP boards are so very limited for efficiency (even in the 14' categories)...
With the above factors (as well as others in mind) it would seem logical that the SUP market would be seeing more Hollow UL boards sometime rather soon! After all, it would cater to heavier paddlers in a very nice way.
Post by: ukgm on March 18, 2019, 01:25:55 AM
I don't see how. UL boards can't be raced in most events, downwinding is highly specialised arm of the market and hollow boards from the established brands would likely be ludicrously expensive. There is no market there. Hell, you'll be more likely to see an inflatable UL DW board first. Heavier recreational paddlers will be fine in the leisure class as things stand so much won't change there. Heavier elite paddlers will just be naturally selected out of the competitive sport though.
With the above factors (as well as others in mind) it would seem logical that the SUP market would be seeing more Hollow UL boards sometime rather soon! After all, it would cater to heavier paddlers in a very nice way.
Post by: Area 10 on March 18, 2019, 04:14:12 AM
Hmm... the majority of people want cheap, hassle-free fun, and care less about winning than the overall experience. Whod have thunk it? :)Inflatables getting cheaper; hard boards getting more expensive; inflatables outnumbering hard boards in races. Hmm...
I've just sold all of my boards, ordered a new ski and ordered an inflatable starboard Allstar so I can race the odd event in the inflatable class if I feel the urge. :o
The key thing about that Dart statistic isn't that there are more inflatable than hard though - it's not the technology we should be focused on. When you look at the trends, its more interesting to note that hardboard open class has grown by a considerably smaller rate than the 'challenge/leisure' class (which is mainly made up of inflatables). At that race in particular, it's because for every new paddler the hardboard class attracts, the class loses some of its more longstanding paddlers who are bored or want something else. Most of the regular top 10 paddlers from the last 4-5 years still paddle SUP but don't travel to races any more.
Post by: ukgm on March 18, 2019, 05:31:25 AM
Hmm... the majority of people want cheap, hassle-free fun, and care less about winning than the overall experience. Whod have thunk it? :)Inflatables getting cheaper; hard boards getting more expensive; inflatables outnumbering hard boards in races. Hmm...
I've just sold all of my boards, ordered a new ski and ordered an inflatable starboard Allstar so I can race the odd event in the inflatable class if I feel the urge. :o
The key thing about that Dart statistic isn't that there are more inflatable than hard though - it's not the technology we should be focused on. When you look at the trends, its more interesting to note that hardboard open class has grown by a considerably smaller rate than the 'challenge/leisure' class (which is mainly made up of inflatables). At that race in particular, it's because for every new paddler the hardboard class attracts, the class loses some of its more longstanding paddlers who are bored or want something else. Most of the regular top 10 paddlers from the last 4-5 years still paddle SUP but don't travel to races any more.
It's merely another example of the parkrun/sportif participation ongoing phenomenon. i.e. people wanting a shared social experience, not a hardcore competitive event that merely exposes everyone's shortcomings (be it physical, financial, technical, etc).
Post by: burchas on March 18, 2019, 05:51:52 AM
That's the word I got. I guess it remains to be seen....lots of people would find a rather gunny low-volume 12ft do-everything-but-especially surf board appealing right now...
Unfortunately, it seems Naish will follow pack and introduce a dugout for the next season.
How do you figure that ? My understanding is that are reducing or pulling out of the more niche aspects of the sport. If they aren't willing to even maintain their flatwater board range from an existing blank design, they are not going to create a new board for a market that is as small (if not smaller) surely ?
Post by: Area 10 on March 18, 2019, 05:54:52 AM
Post by: burchas on March 18, 2019, 05:56:09 AM
I would not mind a performance/fast light touring board. A kind of Glide Light or Javelin de-tuned. Pretty much a SIC RS with a tad less volume but without the race moniker to it, so it becomes available on the second hand market :-)
And that is something that could work well with the hollow construction of Nelo. They just have to go wider and make some nicer, cleaner lines. Simple is best.
Pure physics limitations will make it extremely difficult to create a hollow board that's: light, strong - but also LOW VOLUME.
That's a pile of rubbish. They've been selling those for years. Hollow, light, low volume & very strong
Post by: robon on March 18, 2019, 09:14:13 AM
I would not mind a performance/fast light touring board. A kind of Glide Light or Javelin de-tuned. Pretty much a SIC RS with a tad less volume but without the race moniker to it, so it becomes available on the second hand market :-)
And that is something that could work well with the hollow construction of Nelo. They just have to go wider and make some nicer, cleaner lines. Simple is best.
The JL Sidewinder 14 x 27 has a bit less volume than the SIC RS 14 x 26 and would be very close to the same weight in the more durable signature construction. Just no used ones popping up in BC yet. The Sunova Allwater 14 x 27 may be a bit more volume than what you would want. I noticed Sunova has a new touring/expedition board in multiple widths that Norm Hann helped develop. The 14 x 28.5 would probably be a fairly quick touring board but is higher volume.
I was paddling with Norm this morning and he mentioned that he really like the touring board even in 28.5. the nose profile is less deep than their other board, which I like.
There is also some talk for the AllAround (orange nose, flat deck) to lower the deck so the thing doe snot feel like a bloody cork. I wanted to try the touring board in 27" but the weight has been stopping me. This year it look slike the weight is considerable down so....
Cool, I missed that Sunova also has a 27 wide and the weights are very reasonable for the construction and volume. How do you think the expedition goes in rough waters and for the odd DW? A hollow version of boards like these would be interesting. Low weight and potentially stronger.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 18, 2019, 09:54:14 AM
Post by: Jacko on March 18, 2019, 05:02:57 PM
I don't see how. UL boards can't be raced in most events, downwinding is highly specialised arm of the market and hollow boards from the established brands would likely be ludicrously expensive. There is no market there. Hell, you'll be more likely to see an inflatable UL DW board first. Heavier recreational paddlers will be fine in the leisure class as things stand so much won't change there. Heavier elite paddlers will just be naturally selected out of the competitive sport though.
With the above factors (as well as others in mind) it would seem logical that the SUP market would be seeing more Hollow UL boards sometime rather soon! After all, it would cater to heavier paddlers in a very nice way.
Haha just call us crazy but here is the ONE Hollow unlimited!!
Why would we make this? haha probably because we are a little nuts but hell I just love making fast boards and this thing feels unreal.
We have another one heading to Hawaii for Kenny to paddle this year so keen to see how he goes once he finds his feet on something pretty different to what he has been riding for along time
Tried add a pic but would not work sorry.
Post by: Area 10 on March 18, 2019, 05:29:44 PM
ukgm has always taken a position of no hope for himself in regard to board classes. A big unit like him would be far less disadvantaged if all races had UL classes, yet he was unwilling to race them. So now hes not racing at all. Im sure it makes sense to him :)
UL is the way to go for the long term future of SUP racing IMO. 12-6 and 14 are compromise sizes that wee chosen for no good reason, in the early days before racing had established itself. Now is the time to have a re-think.
It could probably start in Europe with UL inflatables. Once inflatables exist that are faster and more fun to paddle than the (14ft) hard boards on sale, things will change rapidly. And inflatables present none of the storage and transport problems of UL boards in high-density population areas. Ive got a 16ft inflatable and its great. A slimmed down version with technical innovation to give greater rigidity would really fly in flat water.
If I was Naish or Starboard Id promote a one-design series of races using an UL inflatable rather than the Naish 12-6. A 12-6 is always going to be behind the hard boards. But a good UL inflatable could take line honours at every race. And then everyone would want one.
Post by: photofr on March 18, 2019, 11:39:16 PM
I don't see how. UL boards can't be raced in most events, downwinding is highly specialised arm of the market and hollow boards from the established brands would likely be ludicrously expensive. There is no market there. Hell, you'll be more likely to see an inflatable UL DW board first. Heavier recreational paddlers will be fine in the leisure class as things stand so much won't change there. Heavier elite paddlers will just be naturally selected out of the competitive sport though.
With the above factors (as well as others in mind) it would seem logical that the SUP market would be seeing more Hollow UL boards sometime rather soon! After all, it would cater to heavier paddlers in a very nice way.
For the first time, the future of UL actually seems rather positive to me.
- We've all kind of agreed on the fact that more and more racers are "retiring" from racing (on 12'6 as well as on 14').
- Heavier paddlers are so much more at ease on UL boards - they are just not as penalised.
Perhaps the combination of older folks gaining weight (think BEER) with folks retiring from the racing scene will realise that there's a lot of fun to be had on ULs. This is obviously all speculation from my part, but you can't deny that it's possible.
Post by: photofr on March 18, 2019, 11:49:45 PM
I would not mind a performance/fast light touring board. A kind of Glide Light or Javelin de-tuned. Pretty much a SIC RS with a tad less volume but without the race moniker to it, so it becomes available on the second hand market :-)
And that is something that could work well with the hollow construction of Nelo. They just have to go wider and make some nicer, cleaner lines. Simple is best.
Pure physics limitations will make it extremely difficult to create a hollow board that's: light, strong - but also LOW VOLUME.
That's a pile of rubbish. They've been selling those for years. Hollow, light, low volume & very strong
Congratulations: you have found one SUP manufacturer who will do supposedly build light, and strong low volume boards. The shape has a lot of very well thought out ideas... but:
- Have you ever paddled one?
- Have you ever even seen one?
- How do you know that it's strong?
- OK... it looks super light, but what are we talking about?
People will probably push the envelope as far as getting Hollow, light, low volume, and very strong... it's not impossible, but there's nothing easy about that combination - especially at a practical price range that will not exceed 4000 euros (at least based on today's euro value).
So while we'll both agree that yes, it's do-able:
- it may not be that feasible at a reasonable price
- there's nothing simple about such a construction
- yes, 3D stringers will help... but bing: there goes your cost.
Post by: photofr on March 19, 2019, 12:19:04 AM
Anything that encourages the use of Unlimited class boards is a good thing IMO.
ukgm has always taken a position of no hope for himself in regard to board classes. A big unit like him would be far less disadvantaged if all races had UL classes, yet he was unwilling to race them. So now hes not racing at all. Im sure it makes sense to him :)
UL is the way to go for the long term future of SUP racing IMO. 12-6 and 14 are compromise sizes that wee chosen for no good reason, in the early days before racing had established itself. Now is the time to have a re-think.
It could probably start in Europe with UL inflatables. Once inflatables exist that are faster and more fun to paddle than the (14ft) hard boards on sale, things will change rapidly. And inflatables present none of the storage and transport problems of UL boards in high-density population areas. Ive got a 16ft inflatable and its great. A slimmed down version with technical innovation to give greater rigidity would really fly in flat water.
If I was Naish or Starboard Id promote a one-design series of races using an UL inflatable rather than the Naish 12-6. A 12-6 is always going to be behind the hard boards. But a good UL inflatable could take line honours at every race. And then everyone would want one.
For once, I will agree with most of the above statements.
I think it's very important to add a list of reminders of how Unlimited boards with a rudder may soon excel in the World of non-racers:
Let's start by keeping in mind that : Non racers make up the majority of paddlers.
1- Very versatile: they can be the jack of all trades in a variety of conditions ranging from dead flat to great downwind.
2- You can replace a 14-footer flat water board with a DW Unlimited board (and still get similar speed) - but you can't replace a DW UL board with a 14' flat water board.
3- The same UL board you used on flat water long distance paddling can be used for touring or family fun. Try putting a family member on your 14x24, or try touring with a 12'6x23.5.
4- Humans seek improvements. UL can often time bring instant gratification (or at least speed increase without trying).
5- We know that heavier paddlers will usually do better on UL boards (average-speed-wise).
6- After extensive testing, we also know that lighter paddlers will be faster on FLAT WATER with a wide, "slow and sluggish" downwind UL board than on a flat water race board. It's a mouthful, but read it again, because in essence, you could replace two of your 14' boards with a single UL board.
Post by: Jacko on March 19, 2019, 01:58:09 AM
ONE Hollow unlimited!!
Post by: ukgm on March 19, 2019, 02:01:04 AM
1) Anything that encourages the use of Unlimited class boards is a good thing IMO.
2) ukgm has always taken a position of no hope for himself in regard to board classes.
3) A big unit like him would be far less disadvantaged if all races had UL classes, yet he was unwilling to race them. So now hes not racing at all. Im sure it makes sense to him :)
4) It could probably start in Europe with UL inflatables. Once inflatables exist that are faster and more fun to paddle than the (14ft) hard boards on sale, things will change rapidly.
5) If I was Naish or Starboard Id promote a one-design series of races using an UL inflatable rather than the Naish 12-6. A 12-6 is always going to be behind the hard boards. But a good UL inflatable could take line honours at every race. And then everyone would want one.
1) Agreed.
2) With SUP being my second sport, I would be more competitive first if i just paddled more than I do. No board size is going to make up for the fact that I only paddle 4 hours a week and even then its typically as a rest day from my cycling. Training load and specificity trumps equipment choice. Even if I'd won more than I had, I'd still be winding it down. It's just run its course for me.
3) Unwilling as in only one race in the UK accepts them. We've discussed this before and me racing on a UL serves no purpose when a. it would take years to convince others to do the same (particularly when you acknowledge the stats of the Dart race you raised) and b. if i take 2) into account. Either way, my shift away from SUP racing has nothing to do with my lack of competitiveness and is everything to do with that surfsking is more fun and with higher speeds. It's more akin to my cycling in terms of what draws me in.
4) Possibly. I had a good look at the starboard Allstar UL last year and that was a fun looking board.
5) In my view, inflatable one-design racing is fine as it is. For example, the N1sco tight courses and formats that prove so popular with paddlers of all levels, just don't suit UL boards.
Post by: Area 10 on March 19, 2019, 02:10:34 AM
Youd be much keener to continue SUP racing if you had an UL. Just go along and beat everyone. Who cares if you are DQed? I can guarantee you that several others will soon follow. UL boards are just so much nicer to train on.
Post by: ukgm on March 19, 2019, 02:43:25 AM
1) You can do everything on an UL that you can do on a 12-6. Its just that almost no-one is building UL boards that are intended to be able to do that. But it can, and in time will, be done.
2) Youd be much keener to continue SUP racing if you had an UL.
3) Just go along and beat everyone. Who cares if you are DQed?
1) As I say, the race formats of inflatable one design suits the smallest practical board, not UL's. Could you - yes, should you, no - it doesn't make any sense as the only advantage is speed - which is irrelevant or relative when everyone is on the same board anyway.
2) No, I really wouldn't. It's not the equipment that is an issue for me, its the sport itself (and wanting to scratch a 20 year itch before my balance goes completely or I'm too old).
3) Well, I would ! There's no point being a lone wolf when you've got nobody to race on a level playing field. If I were just touring or training though, I can see the attraction. I can guarantee that nobody would follow. I've got more chance of people following me back to racing inflatables.
Post by: Area 10 on March 19, 2019, 05:25:15 AM
But if your main sport is a sitting-down one, I can see why you are attracted to another sitting-down sport (surfski).
Post by: Bean on March 19, 2019, 06:13:43 AM
finally worked out this pic thing.
ONE Hollow unlimited!!
Looking good Jacko! How does she paddle?
Post by: burchas on March 19, 2019, 06:52:13 AM
Congratulations: you have found one SUP manufacturer who will do supposedly build light, and strong low volume boards. The shape has a lot of very well thought out ideas... but:
- Have you ever paddled one?
- Have you ever even seen one?
- How do you know that it's strong?
- OK... it looks super light, but what are we talking about?
People will probably push the envelope as far as getting Hollow, light, low volume, and very strong... it's not impossible, but there's nothing easy about that combination - especially at a practical price range that will not exceed 4000 euros (at least based on today's euro value).
So while we'll both agree that yes, it's do-able:
- it may not be that feasible at a reasonable price
- there's nothing simple about such a construction
- yes, 3D stringers will help... but bing: there goes your cost.
Nothing supposedly here. They've been selling these for years. Hollow light boards are nothing new. Nelo is a Johny come lately to the party.
I know these boards up close. Construction is top notch as one might expect from a renowned manufacturer of (what else) racing canoes.
Carbon/Kevlar/foam core composites at 24LB with an option for a lighter/stiffer construction. Cheaper than Nelo? for sure. Even cheaper than
say a 2019 Infinity Whiplash let alone a StarPrice.
And you guessed it, convex bottom with all that entails as one would expect from a Racing canoe designer. A unlimited at 18'6" and a more relaxed 14'
with a flatter bottom and square tail are also available. Pretty Sweet if that's a design you're after.
What I like about this manufacturer is, I can bring my own design and they will make a mold for it. If I can order 20 units it will be a reasonable price.
http://www.savageriver.com/sups/edge
Post by: Area 10 on March 19, 2019, 07:08:35 AM
http://www.savageriver.com/sups/needle
Oh my Lord.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 19, 2019, 07:36:36 AM
2) With SUP being my second sport, I would be more competitive first if i just paddled more than I do. No board size is going to make up for the fact that I only paddle 4 hours a week and even then its typically as a rest day from my cycling.
Problem solved for Bryce. Also come in a hollow construction with checker stripe.
Post by: Area 10 on March 19, 2019, 07:51:00 AM
:) :) :) Id bet hed beat just about anyone on that thing :)2) With SUP being my second sport, I would be more competitive first if i just paddled more than I do. No board size is going to make up for the fact that I only paddle 4 hours a week and even then its typically as a rest day from my cycling.
Problem solved for Bryce. Also come in a hollow construction with checker stripe.
Post by: ukgm on March 19, 2019, 07:54:13 AM
Problem solved for Bryce. Also come in a hollow construction with checker stripe.
(where's the 'like' button !)
Post by: ukgm on March 19, 2019, 07:54:49 AM
:) :) :) Id bet hed beat just about anyone on that thing :)2) With SUP being my second sport, I would be more competitive first if i just paddled more than I do. No board size is going to make up for the fact that I only paddle 4 hours a week and even then its typically as a rest day from my cycling.
Problem solved for Bryce. Also come in a hollow construction with checker stripe.
..... and would have fantastic glutes and calves !
Post by: ukgm on March 19, 2019, 07:56:23 AM
The point isnt speed, ukgm, its the pleasure of paddling. Unlimiteds are much nicer to use. Kinder on the body too. There are some folk like you who are driven by wanting to beat others. But 95% of paddlers just want to enjoy paddling. And an UL will give a lot more pleasure than a 12-6 in most circumstances, for a variety of reasons. That we all now use 14s is just a historical aberration to do (largely) with a marketing battle between brands in the early days of SUP. The standard size should probably be 16ft instead. It very easily could have been.
But if your main sport is a sitting-down one, I can see why you are attracted to another sitting-down sport (surfski).
We're brits. We're good at all sports that involve sitting down (sailing, cycling, rowing.......)
Post by: photofr on March 19, 2019, 08:37:22 AM
The point isnt speed, ukgm, its the pleasure of paddling. Unlimiteds are much nicer to use. Kinder on the body too. There are some folk like you who are driven by wanting to beat others. But 95% of paddlers just want to enjoy paddling. And an UL will give a lot more pleasure than a 12-6 in most circumstances, for a variety of reasons. That we all now use 14s is just a historical aberration to do (largely) with a marketing battle between brands in the early days of SUP. The standard size should probably be 16ft instead. It very easily could have been.
But if your main sport is a sitting-down one, I can see why you are attracted to another sitting-down sport (surfski).
We're brits. We're good at all sports that involve sitting down (sailing, cycling, rowing.......)
WARS have been started with less.
Love the statement though :)
Post by: burchas on March 19, 2019, 09:25:10 AM
Never mind that one, what about this one?
http://www.savageriver.com/sups/needle
Oh my Lord.
Oh my Lord is right. But it also shows that there is no real market for these type of tippy crafts.
Even if they come at 30" wide and price is not outrageous and build quality is great.
If you don't believe it, ask photofr who's now pretty much giving his board away at 1900 euros.
I see Jacko's boards moving before Nelo's, if price is right that is. Judging by the footage I see coming
out of Australia it seems that everyone there is behind that design and the Australians I met in Maui,
are all dugout here, dugout there so maybe enough demand to make it worth pursuing.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 19, 2019, 10:32:10 AM
If you don't believe it, ask photofr who's now pretty much giving his board away at 1900 euros.
Or Ludovic might be keeping his favorite board and we can expect a new trend of videos where he down-wind with Zoltan. Kind of British-French "entente cordiale" event, unless Brexit prevents it and the border closes :-). SO expect to see the "Nelo run" soon on your screens. As a photographer, I am sure that Ludovic will go the extra mile to provide impeccable imagery.
Post by: burchas on March 19, 2019, 10:42:07 AM
If you don't believe it, ask photofr who's now pretty much giving his board away at 1900 euros.
Or Ludovic might be keeping his favorite board and we can expect a new trend of videos where he down-wind with Zoltan. Kind of British-French "entente cordiale" event, unless Brexit prevents it and the border closes :-). SO expect to see the "Nelo run" soon on your screens. As a photographer, I am sure that Ludovic will go the extra mile to provide impeccable imagery.
Funny. I think there is a better chance we'll see Area 10 on a hollow dugout before that happens:-)
Post by: mrbig on March 19, 2019, 11:14:08 AM
Post by: burchas on March 19, 2019, 11:45:15 AM
Burchas, Maybe that's A10 on an inflatable UL dugout!
:D I like these odds even better
Post by: ukgm on March 19, 2019, 01:18:06 PM
If you don't believe it, ask photofr who's now pretty much giving his board away at 1900 euros.
I don't think that's the fault of the board. In my experience, pretty much no secondhand board from any brand of any age gets more than 1700-1800 euros. It's just the victim of a perpetually weak secondhand market.
Post by: burchas on March 19, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
If you don't believe it, ask photofr who's now pretty much giving his board away at 1900 euros.
I don't think that's the fault of the board. In my experience, pretty much no secondhand board from any brand of any age gets more than 1700-1800 euros. It's just the victim of a perpetually weak secondhand market.
No doubt. Especially for sub 24" wide boards (which I experienced my self). With that in mind, one should think long and hard before spending 3600 euros on a board, any board.
Post by: Jacko on March 19, 2019, 03:58:45 PM
finally worked out this pic thing.
ONE Hollow unlimited!!
Looking good Jacko! How does she paddle?
I love it it feels so responsive and lively to paddle. We have done a heap of testing back to back with our production unlimited of the same shape and what the Hollow was molded of and the hollow is faster and just feels so good under foot.
Post by: Jacko on March 19, 2019, 04:11:32 PM
Congratulations: you have found one SUP manufacturer who will do supposedly build light, and strong low volume boards. The shape has a lot of very well thought out ideas... but:
- Have you ever paddled one?
- Have you ever even seen one?
- How do you know that it's strong?
- OK... it looks super light, but what are we talking about?
People will probably push the envelope as far as getting Hollow, light, low volume, and very strong... it's not impossible, but there's nothing easy about that combination - especially at a practical price range that will not exceed 4000 euros (at least based on today's euro value).
So while we'll both agree that yes, it's do-able:
- it may not be that feasible at a reasonable price
- there's nothing simple about such a construction
- yes, 3D stringers will help... but bing: there goes your cost.
Nothing supposedly here. They've been selling these for years. Hollow light boards are nothing new. Nelo is a Johny come lately to the party.
I know these boards up close. Construction is top notch as one might expect from a renowned manufacturer of (what else) racing canoes.
Carbon/Kevlar/foam core composites at 24LB with an option for a lighter/stiffer construction. Cheaper than Nelo? for sure. Even cheaper than
say a 2019 Infinity Whiplash let alone a StarPrice.
And you guessed it, convex bottom with all that entails as one would expect from a Racing canoe designer. A unlimited at 18'6" and a more relaxed 14'
with a flatter bottom and square tail are also available. Pretty Sweet if that's a design you're after.
What I like about this manufacturer is, I can bring my own design and they will make a mold for it. If I can order 20 units it will be a reasonable price.
http://www.savageriver.com/sups/edge
We are looking at doing something very similar in regards to do custom Hollow but it would be more like 10 units and the pricing should be about the same(maybe a little more) as our Ultralight boards now, hell we could do a one of it just might cost a bit more.
If we have no importer in a certain country then people just contact us directly and we can always work something out. I think some very exciting times are ahead on this front as it is a risk to go go Hollow and if you have a shit shape or want to update your models every year then it might not work so well but for us we have been running 18 to 24 month board cycles so we think this can give us enough time to make the investment worth it or at least pay for me and Ang to come and visit most of our overseas paddling friends.
Post by: burchas on March 19, 2019, 04:45:07 PM
Nothing supposedly here. They've been selling these for years. Hollow light boards are nothing new. Nelo is a Johny come lately to the party.
I know these boards up close. Construction is top notch as one might expect from a renowned manufacturer of (what else) racing canoes.
Carbon/Kevlar/foam core composites at 24LB with an option for a lighter/stiffer construction. Cheaper than Nelo? for sure. Even cheaper than
say a 2019 Infinity Whiplash let alone a StarPrice.
And you guessed it, convex bottom with all that entails as one would expect from a Racing canoe designer. A unlimited at 18'6" and a more relaxed 14'
with a flatter bottom and square tail are also available. Pretty Sweet if that's a design you're after.
What I like about this manufacturer is, I can bring my own design and they will make a mold for it. If I can order 20 units it will be a reasonable price.
http://www.savageriver.com/sups/edge
We are looking at doing something very similar in regards to do custom Hollow but it would be more like 10 units and the pricing should be about the same(maybe a little more) as our Ultralight boards now, hell we could do a one of it just might cost a bit more.
If we have no importer in a certain country then people just contact us directly and we can always work something out. I think some very exciting times are ahead on this front as it is a risk to go go Hollow and if you have a shit shape or want to update your models every year then it might not work so well but for us we have been running 18 to 24 month board cycles so we think this can give us enough time to make the investment worth it or at least pay for me and Ang to come and visit most of our overseas paddling friends.
That's very exciting indeed. I hope you'll bring some of the hollow boards to Hood River in May.
18-24 cycle at this point in time is reasonable, I would even push for a bit longer cycle. It just shows respect to your customers IMO.
More details on the boards wouldn't hurt at all.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 19, 2019, 05:14:03 PM
I think some very exciting times are ahead on this front as it is a risk to go go Hollow and if you have a shit shape or want to update your models every year then it might not work so well but for us we have been running 18 to 24 month board cycles so we think this can give us enough time to make the investment worth it or at least pay for me and Ang to come and visit most of our overseas paddling friends.
I can sympathise with that in terms of business. It would make sense to look at a proven and successful shape and make small changes only to accommodate the difference in construction to rationalize the investment. I would not like to try this with a shape that is till in full evolution. This woudl apply to both hollow or "customs".
As an example, I believe that the Naish Maliko is now a proven and successful design and would be a good base for some level of experimentation keeping the original DNA like for example going to 16' for a production board. I am sure that other example would come to mind regarding going hollow.
Post by: Jacko on March 19, 2019, 05:18:59 PM
We will have more info on this project as we get more into it but at the moment it is all pretty exciting.
Yeah 18 to 24 months could be stretched out but when every other company is on a 12 month cycle and alot of people still support this we just have to be careful we don't disappear between releasing boards and we also have to give the retailers something new to sell every now and then. We already split our range up so one year half the range will be updated and then the following year we will update the other half which works well and we also run on the if it is not broken then don't try and fix it so if something is selling well even after 2 years we will not replace it but this also has to go the other way and if we have a model that maybe has peaked and is no longer being ordered then we have to look at why and if it is something that needs to be replaced by a better version or even a whole new model depending on what we have been working on.
We have always run a pretty flexible business model that has needed to change over the years and is still changing now but i feel if you don't learn to move a little then you just get left behind.
Post by: burchas on March 19, 2019, 05:55:29 PM
We will have some at Hood river even if i have to fly over with my own but my plan is to send the very first one we made that is on its way to Hawaii for Kenny to do Molokai and then once he is finished with it try and get it to Hood, this one is a bit heavier and not as stiff as the newer ones but still goes unreal.
We will have more info on this project as we get more into it but at the moment it is all pretty exciting.
Yeah 18 to 24 months could be stretched out but when every other company is on a 12 month cycle and alot of people still support this we just have to be careful we don't disappear between releasing boards and we also have to give the retailers something new to sell every now and then. We already split our range up so one year half the range will be updated and then the following year we will update the other half which works well and we also run on the if it is not broken then don't try and fix it so if something is selling well even after 2 years we will not replace it but this also has to go the other way and if we have a model that maybe has peaked and is no longer being ordered then we have to look at why and if it is something that needs to be replaced by a better version or even a whole new model depending on what we have been working on.
We have always run a pretty flexible business model that has needed to change over the years and is still changing now but i feel if you don't learn to move a little then you just get left behind.
The split rate cycles sounds like a good strategy. As you stated, if a shape works and sells, no reason to replace. Naish Maliko, as Luc stated, is a good example. Pretty much the same board for the past 4 years including
the new upcoming model. SIC RS is another one, my first time with it was the 2017 Carolina Cup just about 2 years ago. shape hasn't changed either and it seems it's going to be the same for another season.
Nothing wrong with updating graphics and better construction, the one thing we're all crying for in the sup world is better construction :'(
Post by: ukgm on March 20, 2019, 12:51:27 AM
Sorry, rant over.
Post by: burchas on March 20, 2019, 05:01:02 AM
The 12 month development window is one of my biggest bugbears of the sport. It's crippling the race board market. Most brands who do it don't have engineers or the R&D resources or credibility to be able to evidence it and when you consider other forms of highly technological forms of sports technology (i.e. bikes, kayaks, boats), they have far longer development cycles (merely relying on colourway changes annually instead). Starboard seem to be scaring other brands to follow their ridiculous practise which anyone with any relevant experience can see straight through.
Sorry, rant over.
Starboard has been the biggest offender in this market, not only on "development" cycles but also on pricing and strong-arming tactics towards retailers. I stay clear of their products on principal.
Unfortunately, I see up and coming brands copying their tactics. Now rant is over.
Post by: JEG on March 20, 2019, 01:45:10 PM
The 12 month development window is one of my biggest bugbears of the sport. It's crippling the race board market. Most brands who do it don't have engineers or the R&D resources or credibility to be able to evidence it and when you consider other forms of highly technological forms of sports technology (i.e. bikes, kayaks, boats), they have far longer development cycles (merely relying on colourway changes annually instead). Starboard seem to be scaring other brands to follow their ridiculous practise which anyone with any relevant experience can see straight through.
Sorry, rant over.
Starboard has been the biggest offender in this market, not only on "development" cycles but also on pricing and strong-arming tactics towards retailers. I stay clear of their products on principle.
Unfortunately, I see up and coming brands copying their tactics. Now, rant is over.
apparently, this is an ok business practice ::)
Post by: Area 10 on March 20, 2019, 03:44:07 PM
Yes, I have avoided buying Starboard for the same reasons. Well, that and what I perceive to be the poor value for money of their race board constructions, and some pretty silly (IMO) marketing claims.The 12 month development window is one of my biggest bugbears of the sport. It's crippling the race board market. Most brands who do it don't have engineers or the R&D resources or credibility to be able to evidence it and when you consider other forms of highly technological forms of sports technology (i.e. bikes, kayaks, boats), they have far longer development cycles (merely relying on colourway changes annually instead). Starboard seem to be scaring other brands to follow their ridiculous practise which anyone with any relevant experience can see straight through.
Sorry, rant over.
Starboard has been the biggest offender in this market, not only on "development" cycles but also on pricing and strong-arming tactics towards retailers. I stay clear of their products on principal.
Unfortunately, I see up and coming brands copying their tactics. Now rant is over.
Post by: JEG on March 20, 2019, 04:05:09 PM
Post by: burchas on March 20, 2019, 04:26:18 PM
same here, I have avoided a few big brands because of bad business practice, example 1 - short term gain & BS claims :o etc... though this doesn't stop me from buying products and then find out its another BS product :D
I think you're in the wrong thread :o You need to go to the "Board Anonymous" section. If you have hard time finding it,
it's right by the "Star-board Anonymous" and you just can't miss that one :D
Post by: Jacko on March 20, 2019, 04:39:17 PM
Post by: Luc Benac on March 20, 2019, 05:02:18 PM
Lucky i didn't say our hollow board was 25% quicker and 50% lighter and a 23 is as stable as a 28 wide or i feel i might mot have been believed in this thread!! ;D ;D
This is a difficult audience. But overall more polite than the Breeze. As soon as the proof is in the pudding with several experienced users non-affiliated to a brand vouching for a design or model, then there is a captive audience and support is forthcoming without the need for any BS :-)
Post by: Area 10 on March 20, 2019, 05:25:47 PM
This is true. If the claims are reasonable then youll find a loyal and appreciative audience here. Gone are the days I think when brands could make ludicrous claims and it would work as a marketing ploy. Over the last dozen years too many people have spent a fortune only to be disappointed, and this has led to a widespread cynicism about marketing claims. But equally, if the board turns out to be really very good at what its supposed to do, and is well-made and respectable value, then word will travel very fast indeed: faster than wins at elite races will get ya.Lucky i didn't say our hollow board was 25% quicker and 50% lighter and a 23 is as stable as a 28 wide or i feel i might mot have been believed in this thread!! ;D ;D
This is a difficult audience. But overall more polite than the Breeze. As soon as the proof is in the pudding with several experienced users non-affiliated to a brand vouching for a design or model, then there is a captive audience and support is forthcoming without the need for any BS :-)
Post by: Jacko on March 20, 2019, 05:32:22 PM
Lucky i didn't say our hollow board was 25% quicker and 50% lighter and a 23 is as stable as a 28 wide or i feel i might mot have been believed in this thread!! ;D ;D
This is a difficult audience. But overall more polite than the Breeze. As soon as the proof is in the pudding with several experienced users non-affiliated to a brand vouching for a design or model, then there is a captive audience and support is forthcoming without the need for any BS :-)
Yeah don't worry i look at what gets put out some times and just shake my head at some of the claims, if i believed it all then i should be paddling at about a average speed of 20km per hour in the flat these days. ;D
Post by: photofr on March 21, 2019, 12:53:02 AM
If you don't believe it, ask photofr who's now pretty much giving his board away at 1900 euros.
I don't think that's the fault of the board. In my experience, pretty much no secondhand board from any brand of any age gets more than 1700-1800 euros. It's just the victim of a perpetually weak secondhand market.
To clarify a few points...
Like most of you, I have also owned quite a few boards, but I have actually sold nearly all of them. Most of the time, I actually got what I would consider a very fair price, where most of my boards have left at the 2000 euro mark. With this in mind, I can say the following (in order of importance):
- Trying to sell a board in Europe during the months of Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan or Feb will pretty much guarantee you a sale under 2000 euros. I believe that's because people aren't yet motivated to getting back in the water until Mars / April. The sun sells!!!!
- 4 years ago, trying to sell a sub 25" board pretty meant that your audience was reduced to "nothing". By today's standards, the same thing might be true for boards in the sub 23". Heck, people are riding 21 and 20" boards nowadays.
- People are not yet super familiar with Nelo or even hollow boards for that matter. That's not exactly helping me sell my board.
- Me selling my Signature 2.0 for 1900 euros doesn't necessarily reflects the current market price for that board used. I am looking for a quick sale, and motivated buyers.
- To be fair, it's working! I have couple of interested parties pondering on the purchase - and it only takes one to hit the trigger.
Even though I would rather have money in my pocket right now, there's no denying that I would probably be keeping my Nelo boards if it were a 22 or 21" board - for I find this one having too much volume for my weight, and far too stable to get the leg workout I am usually looking for at my age (51 next month - time flies).
Post by: photofr on March 21, 2019, 12:55:26 AM
If you don't believe it, ask photofr who's now pretty much giving his board away at 1900 euros.
Or Ludovic might be keeping his favorite board and we can expect a new trend of videos where he down-wind with Zoltan. Kind of British-French "entente cordiale" event, unless Brexit prevents it and the border closes :-). SO expect to see the "Nelo run" soon on your screens. As a photographer, I am sure that Ludovic will go the extra mile to provide impeccable imagery.
Funny thing...
Actually, if you look on Bruno's page RIGHT NOW, you will see how the board (21" Signature mind you) handles a boat wake. Just go to FaceBook... and look for Bruno's page. I have even posted on my page: ludovic bacquet
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2019, 12:59:01 AM
If you don't believe it, ask photofr who's now pretty much giving his board away at 1900 euros.
Or Ludovic might be keeping his favorite board and we can expect a new trend of videos where he down-wind with Zoltan. Kind of British-French "entente cordiale" event, unless Brexit prevents it and the border closes :-). SO expect to see the "Nelo run" soon on your screens. As a photographer, I am sure that Ludovic will go the extra mile to provide impeccable imagery.
Funny thing...
Actually, if you look on Bruno's page RIGHT NOW, you will see how the board (21" Signature mind you) handles a boat wake. Just go to FaceBook... and look for Bruno's page. I have even posted on my page: ludovic bacquet
I saw that but frankly he's got a freakish level of skills and he weighs the same as my left buttock.
Post by: photofr on March 21, 2019, 01:00:53 AM
If you don't believe it, ask photofr who's now pretty much giving his board away at 1900 euros.
I don't think that's the fault of the board. In my experience, pretty much no secondhand board from any brand of any age gets more than 1700-1800 euros. It's just the victim of a perpetually weak secondhand market.
No doubt. Especially for sub 24" wide boards (which I experienced my self). With that in mind, one should think long and hard before spending 3600 euros on a board, any board.
Regrets - probably part of the Relativity Theory :)
Couple of boards come to mind, all of which have cost me in excess of 3000 euros, and all of which I absolutely do not regret for a second. Interestingly enough, the following 3 boards didn't just cost me more than 3000 euros each, but they are part of the family of SUP boards that I have had the most of amount of fun on:
- Starboard UL 17'6"x23" (also racked the most amount of miles EVER on that bad boy).
- Starboard 14x23" Sprint
- Nelo Signature 2.0 (14x23")
Post by: photofr on March 21, 2019, 01:03:16 AM
If you don't believe it, ask photofr who's now pretty much giving his board away at 1900 euros.
Or Ludovic might be keeping his favorite board and we can expect a new trend of videos where he down-wind with Zoltan. Kind of British-French "entente cordiale" event, unless Brexit prevents it and the border closes :-). SO expect to see the "Nelo run" soon on your screens. As a photographer, I am sure that Ludovic will go the extra mile to provide impeccable imagery.
Funny thing...
Actually, if you look on Bruno's page RIGHT NOW, you will see how the board (21" Signature mind you) handles a boat wake. Just go to FaceBook... and look for Bruno's page. I have even posted on my page: ludovic bacquet
I saw that but frankly he's got a freakish level of skills and he weighs the same as my left buttock.
He does... he's also young... but look at how the board is handling (you can't have that much ease with the Sprint 14x23).
As a side note... I do need to correct something: He's on the 22" Signature (not 21")
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2019, 01:03:27 AM
Post by: photofr on March 21, 2019, 01:09:53 AM
Watch this space though. A week Saturday is our national sprint championships in the UK. Two of us will be paddling Lightboardcorp's gear. I'm going to be using the GT for the last time before I hand it back and another paddler is using the Signature 1.0. I'm still injured so I'm just hoping to be able to complete the event and maybe, if I'm lucky, get on the age group podium. The other paddler though has a serious chance of being top 3 overall. He'll be up against domestic team paddlers from all of the main brands using all of the expected products (21.5 sprints, etc).
Pretty cool old man.
I see the Signature boards are serious contenders in the race scene.
Germany has certainly proved that point by having plenty of Nelo boards on its podiums.
Bruno is going to show it off on races all over the World.
Great Britain is now introducing the board on its race scene.
It's a far cry from Starboard paying 100's of riders to be part of "their team" all over the World, but this is grass root marketing for Nelo - placing what I consider a very good all around board in the production line.
Post by: Area 10 on March 21, 2019, 01:20:45 AM
So now maybe well get a chance to find out if the Lightcorp/Nelo shape is a good one. What Bruno does or doesnt do is of no relevance whatsoever to me. His skills and ability are so far away from mine that his performances are no useful indication as to what would be good for me. But if big fat old lumps like ukgm start doing well on the board then maybe I should pay attention ;) :)
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2019, 02:17:50 AM
But if big fat old lumps like ukgm start doing well on the board then maybe I should pay attention ;) :)
Hey ! - I can still see my abs at 43 !! (although I'd kill for being able to enjoy a biscuit anytime soon.....)
Post by: photofr on March 21, 2019, 03:42:51 AM
I believe that the answer to that question is so complex that I would deem it impossible to quantify.
I do believe that there's something to be said about Germans though. Simply put:
- They weren't winning in 2016 or 2017 (using NON-NELO).
- They are winning in 2018 (using NELO)
KEEP IN MIND
Current level of the Signature 2.0's introduction in the World: Infantry
MORE IMPORTANT
Not too many people expected the Nelo Signature 2.0 to be so versatile 12 months ago - not even me (as I was just discovering its limitations). I am baffled though, because in tiny, small or even medium bumps, the Nelo Signature 2.0 will outperform the well-known 14x23 board that has won so many titles.
Post by: burchas on March 21, 2019, 04:52:54 AM
If you don't believe it, ask photofr who's now pretty much giving his board away at 1900 euros.
Or Ludovic might be keeping his favorite board and we can expect a new trend of videos where he down-wind with Zoltan. Kind of British-French "entente cordiale" event, unless Brexit prevents it and the border closes :-). SO expect to see the "Nelo run" soon on your screens. As a photographer, I am sure that Ludovic will go the extra mile to provide impeccable imagery.
Funny thing...
Actually, if you look on Bruno's page RIGHT NOW, you will see how the board (21" Signature mind you) handles a boat wake. Just go to FaceBook... and look for Bruno's page. I have even posted on my page: ludovic bacquet
So you set the bar so low for this board that now even handling a controlled mellow boat wake by no less than world champ get praises. I see ::)
You flat water guys seems to have no idea how surfing a wake should look like other wise you'd realized the Nelo suck at that. This is what it looks like:
Post by: burchas on March 21, 2019, 04:54:00 AM
Post by: photofr on March 21, 2019, 05:28:47 AM
Let's compare what's comparable then:
Go ahead and compare the same wake between the Nelo Signature 2.0 and the Sprint (both in 14x23). I know, because I have - we have a boat wake that's anything but mellow, and I assure you that the Signature 2.0 is just so much easier (and fun). The difference is so great that it would be like comparing the Signature 2.0 with the Ace 14x25 (another board that I had).
Pff... "you flat water guys" - too funny.
Post by: burchas on March 21, 2019, 06:05:30 AM
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2019, 06:18:27 AM
Can Bruno win it all, because the Nelo Signature board is just SUPER FAST?
This argument will never be answered. If Bruno wins plenty of races, the naysayers will say its because he was a good athlete before and the fans will say its because the board is so good. If he doesn't win much, the naysayers will then claim its the boards fault whereas it could just be due to the other athletes. This is really all about the issues of correlation vs causation (and not confusing the two).
The key thing really is whether this board prompts any changes in the industry. I think it will.... but not from everyone.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 21, 2019, 07:17:26 AM
But if big fat old lumps like ukgm start doing well on the board then maybe I should pay attention ;) :)
Hey ! - I can still see my abs at 43 !! (although I'd kill for being able to enjoy a biscuit anytime soon.....)
So was I, wait ten more years and they do loose a lot of definition :-)
Post by: photofr on March 21, 2019, 07:27:44 AM
I heard that same line when I was 20 (wait until you are in your 30's), when I was 30 (wait 'til you turn 40), and when I was 50 (just wait...). Well, guess what: I am still waiting. Surely, and there's no doubt in my mind, that EVENTUALLY, "they" will be right.
It's getting harder to stay in shape, but it isn't that hard.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 21, 2019, 07:30:02 AM
The key thing really is whether this board prompts any changes in the industry. I think it will.... but not from everyone.
I am with you there. I cannot care less if he or anybody else for that matter win a sprint or a flat water race (no offense intended to UKGM). I do care if the benefit of a "new" construction type spread to some great all-water/downwind/touring designs. I might not know it yet but a 16' super durable, light and under $2,000 Maliko and SIC RS or same might be in the card soon with production boards in abundance and even a second hand market.
But no I would not qualify the current Nelo offering as great designs for my purpose nor attractive pricing. It might change in the future or technologies might be applied by other brands which already have the designs, who knows.
Just having my Ace-GT drop from 31 lbs to 26 lbs would do wonder for my back and shoulders :-)
Post by: Luc Benac on March 21, 2019, 07:34:40 AM
Hysterical, but it's pointless:
I heard that same line when I was 20 (wait until you are in your 30's), when I was 30 (wait 'til you turn 40), and when I was 50 (just wait...). Well, guess what: I am still waiting. Surely, and there's no doubt in my mind, that EVENTUALLY, "they" will be right.
It's getting harder to stay in shape, but it isn't that hard.
Sure but it takes a lot more determination and focused effort to keep a well defined six-pack as you get older with a few exceptions. More importantly, it does not really matter as much to oneself, as long as you have a strong core, if it translates in a young man look or just a fit middle age look.
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2019, 07:55:58 AM
It's getting harder to stay in shape, but it isn't that hard.
I just look at the likes of Larry Cain and Ned Overend and feel suitably inspired.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 21, 2019, 08:24:07 AM
It's getting harder to stay in shape, but it isn't that hard.
I just look at the likes of Larry Cain and Ned Overend and feel suitably inspired.
Absolutely but they are also professional athletes with the time available and the professional dedication. It is a different set of priorities than a full time demanding job. Their bodies is also part of their CV.
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2019, 08:44:33 AM
It's getting harder to stay in shape, but it isn't that hard.
I just look at the likes of Larry Cain and Ned Overend and feel suitably inspired.
Absolutely but they are also professional athletes with the time available and the professional dedication. It is a different set of priorities than a full time demanding job. Their bodies is also part of their CV.
Agreed. I think the point here though is not that age ruins your body as a cliff edge at, say, age 50 - its that people lifestyle changes at some point to speed up the decline. In my case, I do 12-14 hours exercise per week across 2-3 sports. I don't think that will be sustainable when I'm 60. Therefore, I'm goingto lose some of my physicality because of that. The sacrifice and commitment for such a lifestyle is not to be underestimated.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 21, 2019, 09:12:59 AM
It's getting harder to stay in shape, but it isn't that hard.
I just look at the likes of Larry Cain and Ned Overend and feel suitably inspired.
Absolutely but they are also professional athletes with the time available and the professional dedication. It is a different set of priorities than a full time demanding job. Their bodies is also part of their CV.
Agreed. I think the point here though is not that age ruins your body as a cliff edge at, say, age 50 - its that people lifestyle changes at some point to speed up the decline. In my case, I do 12-14 hours exercise per week across 2-3 sports. I don't think that will be sustainable when I'm 60. Therefore, I'm goingto lose some of my physicality because of that. The sacrifice and commitment for such a lifestyle is not to be underestimated.
Most definitely. And this is both physically and mentally. I trained and competed at low level for 20 years in kickboxing and mixed martial arts. Stopped at 42 because both the mind and body could not handle anymore the focus and dedication. I do power yoga now :-) In parallel seniority and responsibility work-wise grew. So it was a kind of yin-yang balance.
Post by: photofr on March 21, 2019, 09:39:05 AM
Aging is actually "interesting".
Post by: mr_proper on March 22, 2019, 07:15:48 AM
I sold my half year old Signature 1.0 for 1400 EUR because I didnt found a buyer who was willing to pay more.
Post by: Luc Benac on March 22, 2019, 07:36:24 AM
Some thoughts about the price of a Signature/Nelo... I know nobody who paid the full price of 3600 EUR. Almost every Signature Owner is a racer and got the special price from Lightcorp. Just ask for it.
I sold my half year old Signature 1.0 for 1400 EUR because I didnt found a buyer who was willing to pay more.
That was the case locally for most Starboard race boards and local racers. And it created a disparity in the used market where the (very) few people that bough at retail price where trying to sell their boards $1,000 over the racers so that the same board could be advertised at $3,500 or at $2,500 or under. ONE and Sunova got into the market and it seems to adjust a little bit as some racers went from Starboard to them.
Post by: photofr on March 22, 2019, 07:51:44 AM
Some thoughts about the price of a Signature/Nelo... I know nobody who paid the full price of 3600 EUR. Almost every Signature Owner is a racer and got the special price from Lightcorp. Just ask for it.
I sold my half year old Signature 1.0 for 1400 EUR because I didnt found a buyer who was willing to pay more.
Couple of things to take under consideration...
The Nelo Signature 14x24.75 and 14x23 were the first boards to make it to France.
1. I know of 3 people who have personally bought a 14x24.75 - all at full price (3450 at the time - in euros).
2. I bought my 14x23 at FULL price, but expedited the shipping because I wanted it in 2 days (so my board was just a hair under 4000 euros when it was all said and done).
3. Unsure where you posted your board FOR SALE, but at 1400 euros, I would have bought it in a hurry (even though it was a 14x24.75).
4. Not a single of the the 4 owners of a Signature race in France or anywhere else.
In other words, unsure about where you get your facts from.
Post by: mr_proper on March 22, 2019, 08:11:06 AM
3. Unsure where you posted your board FOR SALE, but at 1400 euros, I would have bought it in a hurry (even though it was a 14x24.75).
In other words, unsure about where you get your facts from.
I had offered the board for a lot of weeks on different platforms (e.g. facebook groups, classifieds, SUP dealer, ...) with no response.
Facts to pricing... I know six Signature owner.
On the old website was even the note that there are team rider prices on request.
Post by: ukgm on March 22, 2019, 08:44:44 AM
Post by: photofr on March 22, 2019, 09:07:40 AM
Too bad about the Brexit... It looks like I could have gotten used boards a little cheaper in your region, by merely travelling a bit (and checking out your neck-of-woods).
Post by: Luc Benac on March 22, 2019, 09:10:00 AM
I know that when Ive been on team deals I got the board cheap. This meant I would sell it on at the of the season - rather than for what it was worth but merely just to cover those costs. When enough people do that, thats why you see a suppressed price for nearly new boards as nobody will pay more as theyll see such prices as a norm.
Exactly. It also contributed to the price for a narrower board to be a lot cheaper than for a 26" boards. Everybody could see that 25" and under race boards were in large supply at the end of the season and paying more than $1,500~$2,000 did not make any sense.
Post by: photofr on March 25, 2019, 07:11:42 AM
"Raceboards should be used only by trained persons or under supervision"
So, before you consider purchasing a very fast board, or simply get an extra extra light board, or simply looking for a nice hollow board, a new one or even mine...
1. Make sure you are trained, OR...
2. Make sure you paddle your new toy under supervision.
Hope this helps. :o
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-fBGFB8L/0/9a2fe8e8/L/i-fBGFB8L-L.jpg) (https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2018-Event-Photos/2018-SEP-14-Taking-a-Closer-Look/n-VtZsbF/i-fBGFB8L/A)
Post by: JEG on March 25, 2019, 01:24:45 PM
Post by: Luc Benac on March 25, 2019, 02:27:32 PM
photofr, I like the look of that board and I wanna test it and see how it feel and compare to others 8)
Easy, buy it from Ludovic and have it shipped to Australia. Then you can compare speed on open water with your custom JL Sidewinder II. And post detailed review here :-)
Post by: photofr on March 26, 2019, 04:39:23 AM
photofr, I like the look of that board and I wanna test it and see how it feel and compare to others 8)
Easy, buy it from Ludovic and have it shipped to Australia. Then you can compare speed on open water with your custom JL Sidewinder II. And post detailed review here :-)
Surely, JEG can find a board that doesn't require a 20 hours plane ride. He does have the right attitude: giving it a try, and seeing for himself.
As for my board, there are 4 people claiming to be interested - but seemingly, Europeans take longer to hit the trigger than folks back home.
BTW...
If I recall correctly, the Nelo boards originally came out at 3450 euros.
After about 6 months, that price went up to 3600 euros.
Looking at the Lightcorp website again, I am now seeing 3695 euros, each.
It sort of makes sense, for as long as a Starboard will be 3500 euros / without a "lasting construction".
Post by: Area 10 on March 26, 2019, 05:09:16 AM
Post by: ukgm on March 26, 2019, 05:46:11 AM
If I recall correctly, the Nelo boards originally came out at 3450 euros.
After about 6 months, that price went up to 3600 euros.
Looking at the Lightcorp website again, I am now seeing 3695 euros, each.
I know first hand that it's not Lightcorp driving that price change, it's Starboard. We're nearly into 'halo' product territory soon - if we're not already.
Post by: photofr on March 26, 2019, 07:56:56 AM
iSUP - about 1200 euros (doesn't last).
SUP - 14x what ever without weighing a ton - about 3500 euros (doesn't last).
hSUP (as in Hollow SUP) - 14x what ever - about 3800 euros (long lasting, proven construction).
SURFSKI - with a rudder and a 11 kilos hollow construction - starting and still at about 2500 euros (long lasting, proven construction
It's a no-brainer: more people will make the move.
Post by: ukgm on March 26, 2019, 08:21:38 AM
It's a no-brainer: more people will make the move.
I don't think so. The market, drivers and buzz are completely different between the two in my view. I just think paddlers will have a short shelf life in SUP whereas surfskiers are more like kayakers i.e. long term lifers not driven by fashion or fad. Surf skiing has been helped massively by boats like the Epic V8 (making it manageable) but since SUP's biggest market is inland based (with the coastal market being quite small), you'll more likely see ex-SUP paddlers try something completely different.
Post by: Area 10 on March 26, 2019, 08:22:49 AM
Although some gullible individuals may pay eg. 3500 GBP for a carbon Starboard, 95% of normal people will buy the cheaper construction, which costs a lot less money. Hardly anyone who isnt getting a big discount will be buying the full carbon boards.
I wouldnt buy a surfski even if it cost 100 euros, because I want to SUP not surfski. I doubt that anyone is looking at the prices of these elite items and choosing their activity on the basis of the relative prices.
Post by: ukgm on March 26, 2019, 08:23:47 AM
I doubt that anyone is looking at the prices of these elite items and choosing their activity on the basis of the relative prices.
I agree.
Post by: photofr on March 26, 2019, 09:44:53 AM
Weight is a much bigger issue for you, photofr, because you weigh so little, so a boards weight is a bigger percentage of your body weight. Plus, I have SUPs that are more than 10 years old and are pretty much the same as they were 10 years ago: how long do you need a board to last???
...
Honestly, when I spend 2000 or more euros, I'd like my "toys" to last a bit...
Here's my short list of boards I have been extremely unhappy with as far as lasting - they ALL had massive pressure dings after just a handful of sessions in the Ocean.
- JL 14x27
- JL 14x25
- SB Sprint 12x24
- SB Sprint 17'6x23
- SB Ace 14x25
- SB Allstar 14x25
- SB Racer 14x25
Aside from pressure dings, most of the above boards aged poorly, and looked a bit run-down before the first season was over.
So, to answer your original question: How long do I want them to last?
3 to 5 years would be nice - without too much compromise on weight (since as we both know that would impact feather-weights like me).
Note: I usually "baby" my equipment (I can put 1000's of kilometres on a board or paddle and not even put a scratch on it - as long as I don't race) :)
Post by: photofr on March 26, 2019, 09:53:00 AM
It's a no-brainer: more people will make the move.
I don't think so. The market, drivers and buzz are completely different between the two in my view. I just think paddlers will have a short shelf life in SUP whereas surfskiers are more like kayakers i.e. long term lifers not driven by fashion or fad. Surf skiing has been helped massively by boats like the Epic V8 (making it manageable) but since SUP's biggest market is inland based (with the coastal market being quite small), you'll more likely see ex-SUP paddlers try something completely different.
I agree with most of the above - and YES, the V8 was a splendid move from Epic that helped EVERYONE. The Nelo 520 followed years after, and between the V8 and 520, there were 1/2 a dozen "beginner skis" that were super appealing to get people into the sport.
I agree with your view on the two sports too, but with one more factor that IS INVOLVED:
Imagine a person who doesn't paddle...
That same person who goes and gets into SUP with a 11x30...
That same person who eventually progresses to a 14x25...
That same person who races...
And then that same person who gets a little tired of SUP Racing...
Well, I have seen it myself:
Individuals who have followed the above path (almost to the letter), and then have found themselves getting into (and purchasing) either an OC1 or a Surfski (and even sometimes both to end up with only a surfski at the end).
Get people involved into SUP - it's good for everyone (including the Surfski World).
Get people involved into Surfski - it's also good for everyone (including the SUP World).
Heck, getting more people involved into water sports could benefit many different markets - eventually. Getting more people playing video games "may not".
Post by: Area 10 on March 26, 2019, 11:42:41 AM
Well, IMO if you buy Starboard raceboards then you should expect them to look like they belong in a dumpster by the end of the first year, and then for them to be actively falling apart by the end of the next. Ive always thought that the Ace should have been called the Entropy.Weight is a much bigger issue for you, photofr, because you weigh so little, so a boards weight is a bigger percentage of your body weight. Plus, I have SUPs that are more than 10 years old and are pretty much the same as they were 10 years ago: how long do you need a board to last???
...
Honestly, when I spend 2000 or more euros, I'd like my "toys" to last a bit...
Here's my short list of boards I have been extremely unhappy with as far as lasting - they ALL had massive pressure dings after just a handful of sessions in the Ocean.
- JL 14x27
- JL 14x25
- SB Sprint 12x24
- SB Sprint 17'6x23
- SB Ace 14x25
- SB Allstar 14x25
- SB Racer 14x25
Aside from pressure dings, most of the above boards aged poorly, and looked a bit run-down before the first season was over.
So, to answer your original question: How long do I want them to last?
3 to 5 years would be nice - without too much compromise on weight (since as we both know that would impact feather-weights like me).
Note: I usually "baby" my equipment (I can put 1000's of kilometres on a board or paddle and not even put a scratch on it - as long as I don't race) :)
But JL boards are usually very durable. So you must have been unlucky. Ive owned four JLs and they were all exceptionally well-built and pretty much looked the same the day I sold them as the day I bought them.
I currently have 20 SUPs and have owned at least as many others, by many brands. Most of the brands have let me down in some regard at some time. But I suspect you have been especially unlucky because of your predominant association with one particular brand. As I say, Im still using boards that are 10 years old no problem. In fact Ive even got an inflatable SUP thats 10 years old and still going strong!
Post by: mrbig on March 26, 2019, 01:16:10 PM
Owned one Starby which was a POS. Once was enough for me.
JP, hahaha. Chipalong Cassidy. Down the highway.
Friends with JL seemed to have no issues, and friends with SIC no issues.
Pay your money and take your chances.
Post by: ukgm on March 26, 2019, 01:47:45 PM
. The only way I could see surfski prosper massively would be if it developed inland with events and participation. Because it hasnt means numbers will always be limited (in that sup downwinding or surf is in proportion to the rest of the sport). Funnily enough, I discussed with organisers how mass participation could work in the uk 3 or 4 years back and they werent interested. They preferred the high skill specialised nature of surf ski races. Fair enough. At least they know their identity.It's a no-brainer: more people will make the move.
I don't think so. The market, drivers and buzz are completely different between the two in my view. I just think paddlers will have a short shelf life in SUP whereas surfskiers are more like kayakers i.e. long term lifers not driven by fashion or fad. Surf skiing has been helped massively by boats like the Epic V8 (making it manageable) but since SUP's biggest market is inland based (with the coastal market being quite small), you'll more likely see ex-SUP paddlers try something completely different.
I agree with most of the above - and YES, the V8 was a splendid move from Epic that helped EVERYONE. The Nelo 520 followed years after, and between the V8 and 520, there were 1/2 a dozen "beginner skis" that were super appealing to get people into the sport.
I agree with your view on the two sports too, but with one more factor that IS INVOLVED:
Imagine a person who doesn't paddle...
That same person who goes and gets into SUP with a 11x30...
That same person who eventually progresses to a 14x25...
That same person who races...
And then that same person who gets a little tired of SUP Racing...
Well, I have seen it myself:
Individuals who have followed the above path (almost to the letter), and then have found themselves getting into (and purchasing) either an OC1 or a Surfski (and even sometimes both to end up with only a surfski at the end).
Get people involved into SUP - it's good for everyone (including the Surfski World).
Get people involved into Surfski - it's also good for everyone (including the SUP World).
Heck, getting more people involved into water sports could benefit many different markets - eventually. Getting more people playing video games "may not".
Post by: JEG on March 26, 2019, 02:48:05 PM
photofr, I like the look of that board and I wanna test it and see how it feel and compare to others 8)
Easy, buy it from Ludovic and have it shipped to Australia. Then you can compare speed on open water with your custom JL Sidewinder II. And post detailed review here :-)
Surely, JEG can find a board that doesn't require a 20 hours plane ride. He does have the right attitude: giving it a try, and seeing for himself.
As for my board, there are 4 people claiming to be interested - but seemingly, Europeans take longer to hit the trigger than folks back home.
BTW...
If I recall correctly, the Nelo boards originally came out at 3450 euros.
After about 6 months, that price went up to 3600 euros.
Looking at the Lightcorp website again, I am now seeing 3695 euros, each.
It sort of makes sense, for as long as a Starboard will be 3500 euros / without a "lasting construction".
photofr, there is a lot of false advertising now and the only way to find out is to test at my expen$e :)
Post by: photofr on March 27, 2019, 02:22:32 AM
- May I recommend that we START holding everyone accountable for providing false info?
However, aren't we sometimes to blame as well?
For instance, when someone says a board is very stable, don't just take it for granted. Ask them what they are comparing it to.
I have seen the same exact problems with Surfski paddling - and I am so glad that we came up with primary stability vs. secondary stability - in order to clarify a few things. It's gotten way better, with people actually telling you how a ski will feel compared to 3 or more surfskis.
I am still seeing (across the board) people downright lying about board or ski weight though. Are they removing fins / rudders / lines / pedals / handles / pads - BEFORE weighing????
In my opinion, we probably have 4 main categories:
- Untrusted people (people who aren't honest at all)
- Marketing bull (unfounded findings, or pulling stuff out of their A###)
- Accountable people (people who do their best to share their findings)
- US (us paddlers wanting to believe that a new 14x21.5 board is going to be as stable as an Allstar 14x25)
Post by: ukgm on March 27, 2019, 02:41:16 AM
I agree that a lot of the information shared across the board, on FaceBook, or even on YouTube can sometimes be questionable.
- May I recommend that we START holding everyone accountable for providing false info?
However, aren't we sometimes to blame as well?
For instance, when someone says a board is very stable, don't just take it for granted. Ask them what they are comparing it to.
I have seen the same exact problems with Surfski paddling - and I am so glad that we came up with primary stability vs. secondary stability - in order to clarify a few things. It's gotten way better, with people actually telling you how a ski will feel compared to 3 or more surfskis.
I am still seeing (across the board) people downright lying about board or ski weight though. Are they removing fins / rudders / lines / pedals / handles / pads - BEFORE weighing????
In my opinion, we probably have 4 main categories:
- Untrusted people (people who aren't honest at all)
- Marketing bull (unfounded findings, or pulling stuff out of their A###)
- Accountable people (people who do their best to share their findings)
- US (us paddlers wanting to believe that a new 14x21.5 board is going to be as stable as an Allstar 14x25)
A lot of this issue in the past was because that people on forums and social media did not (or would not) disclose their affiliations or conflicts of interest. It doesn't seem too bad on here these days.
Post by: photofr on March 27, 2019, 02:54:26 AM
a) a lie
b) anything that wasn't 100% truthful
The goal was to share new development, and some of the advantages of Cannondale bikes. Back then though, people would "read between the lines" and ask questions. If I said: The Synapse is a very comfortable bike, people would ask me HOW did they make it comfortable, and others would ask me HOW this "comfortable" bike would do in sprints.
In the end, the younger guy looking for a comfy road bike would take a look at the Synapse, and the young sprinter would look at something else. Point being, people asked questions. We should ask more, and perhaps read more.
Post by: Area 10 on March 27, 2019, 03:04:42 AM
Some peoples balance abilities are simply extraordinary. And there are quite a few of them, and for obvious reasons they tend to be those who get asked to do reviews more often than the average SUPer. But they really have NO IDEA how bad the rest of us are, or that what they find so trivial is extremely difficult or totally impossible for the vast majority of people.
So, for sure some people are basically being paid to lie in reviews and social media, and are knowingly doing this. But there are many more elite athletes who simply have no idea what it is like to be in the bodies of the rest of us. If they had to swap with us for a day theyd be absolutely horrified!
I get quite irritated when I see people claiming that a board that is sub-25 side is very stable. They might mean very stable for a board this width, but no board under about 27 wide should really be called stable, period. Maybe even 28-29 (or much wider in the case of short SUPs). Because that simply doesnt accord with the majority of peoples experiences.
I just dont listen at all to the views of anyone who uses a 21.5 wide board or less. 23 in pure flat water is about my limit. I *can* paddle a 21.5x14 but it is a horrible, and very slow, experience. If I wanted that kind of experience I might as well just stay at home and dunk my gentials repeatedly into a pan of boiling water. And this, coincidentally, is what I feel would be deserved punishment for smug elite tossers who are happy to tell inexperienced potential customers that their sub-23 board is super-stable.
Post by: ukgm on March 27, 2019, 03:51:31 AM
1) And many people (indeed, perhaps even most of the entire SUP-user population) are worse balance-wise than I am.
2) Some peoples balance abilities are simply extraordinary. And there are quite a few of them, and for obvious reasons they tend to be those who get asked to do reviews more often than the average SUPer. But they really have NO IDEA how bad the rest of us are, or that what they find so trivial is extremely difficult or totally impossible for the vast majority of people.
3) I *can* paddle a 21.5x14 but it is a horrible, and very slow, experience.
1) Try it when you've got my mass and centre of gravity ! I've no doubt that most racers have better balance than I do. It's mainly as I'm lazy at training it and partly as I'm pretty much four inches taller than everyone else I race against.
2) I agree. I got some offline stick from [brand not stated] recently over that review of the Lightsignature GT because they said they had better paddlers than me to do testing against that board. I agreed and told them that I doubted any of those was a scientist and without that training, they were kind of missing the point and the skillset needed. It's all relative.
3) It's funny you feel that way. I could paddle a 21.5 at full power but only on glassy flatwater (and not in a large mass start race). I suspect with your skills you'd adapt easily but you'd have to put some time in. Personally, I consider 23 inches is my reasonable limit. Anything narrower than that will require a large amount of time just being able to handle the board, let alone maximise your ability on it. That's where a paddler has to judge what is a step too far. Funnily enough, I'm going through this with surfski's at the moment.
Post by: photofr on March 27, 2019, 03:55:36 AM
Its actually quite bizarre when you think about it, because I recall perfectly describing the stability of surfskis and SUP like this:
- The Allstar 14x25 is an extremely stable platform.
- The Nelo 560 is a very stable Elite surfski.
- The Epic V10L will provide an amazing amount of stability.
There are no lies, and no trickery there. I will vouch a 1000 times over for the above statements, but these statements CANNOT BE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.
The first line The Allstar 14x25 is an extremely stable platform should also be considered RELATIVE. Its automatically assumed that anything under 34 is going to feel somewhat unstable for new-comers to the sport, especially if they are non-athletic, and / or weigh a bunch.
The second line The Nelo 560 is a very stable Elite surfski describes an Elite ski. Enough said there its not an entry-level ski, and clearly meant as a statement for Elite paddlers that will find the 560 to be quite stable (compare to a V14 for instance).
The third line The Epic V10L will provide an amazing amount of stability also makes a reference to an Elite ski, but notice I didnt include the words ELITE SKI. I didnt try to trick anyone, but in my defense, it just didnt even occur to me that a non-elite paddler would be looking at a V10L. The only thing I can say there is that, in my reviews, I have taken the time to compare the V10L with something like a Nelo 550, Nelo 560M, Epic V10, and Epic V14.
QUESTIONS
- Were those statements taken out of context?
- Did the reviewer (me, or anyone else) actually compare a surfski or a SUP board with similar crafts?
- Did the reader READ the entire review?
Arent we all at fault here because after all, someone did (very recently) have the audacity to claim that a 28 board would be stable?
FACTS
At the end of the day, I believe that a 27 board will feel instable to my mother (even though she is a total featherweight). I even believe strongly that a 28 board will feel terribly wobbly to a non-athletic 135 kilos male especially if said individual isnt too comfortable near a body a water.
Having said all of this, I still agree and believe that the SUP industry as a whole isnt as honest as Id like them to be. In fact, the only thing we can hope for in the future is for reviewers to back up every single one of their claims:
** A way stable board should be compared with other boards, and so should a way fast board, a well built board, a light board, unstable board, etc**
Post by: JEG on March 27, 2019, 04:18:12 PM
Post by: singingdog on March 28, 2019, 04:42:09 AM
For instance, when someone says a board is very stable, don't just take it for granted. Ask them what they are comparing it to.
Good luck with that. Any thread that I have seen on this board that begins with "What 14' board for x conditions" devolves into a hair-splitting discussion of epic proportions. "In knee high cross-chop, x board is waaay more stable if you weigh 165 and the sun is over your left shoulder."
Post by: Area 10 on March 28, 2019, 06:29:00 AM
:) :) Thats funny, but true. But it reflects the huge variety of experiences of paddlers. Its pretty much hopeless asking someone else how stable a board is, really. We are all so different, and the conditions we paddle in, and the level of difficulty we will tolerate, are so varied.For instance, when someone says a board is very stable, don't just take it for granted. Ask them what they are comparing it to.
Good luck with that. Any thread that I have seen on this board that begins with "What 14' board for x conditions" devolves into a hair-splitting discussion of epic proportions. "In knee high cross-chop, x board is waaay more stable if you weigh 165 and the sun is over your left shoulder."
I can now tell just by looking at a board whether it will provide the level of stability I require. It has taken 12 years of trying scores - maybe hundreds - of boards in a huge range of conditions to get to that point. And a lot of uncomfortable reality checks too, along the way. I dont really see a way round that. Sometimes there is no substitute for hands-on experience, especially when it relates to self-knowledge.
Post by: ukgm on March 28, 2019, 07:24:47 AM
:) :) Thats funny, but true. But it reflects the huge variety of experiences of paddlers. Its pretty much hopeless asking someone else how stable a board is, really. We are all so different, and the conditions we paddle in, and the level of difficulty we will tolerate, are so varied.For instance, when someone says a board is very stable, don't just take it for granted. Ask them what they are comparing it to.
Good luck with that. Any thread that I have seen on this board that begins with "What 14' board for x conditions" devolves into a hair-splitting discussion of epic proportions. "In knee high cross-chop, x board is waaay more stable if you weigh 165 and the sun is over your left shoulder."
I can now tell just by looking at a board whether it will provide the level of stability I require. It has taken 12 years of trying scores - maybe hundreds - of boards in a huge range of conditions to get to that point. And a lot of uncomfortable reality checks too, along the way. I dont really see a way round that. Sometimes there is no substitute for hands-on experience, especially when it relates to self-knowledge.
I personally find that someone telling you what their previous board was prior to that one (and the volume/type of experience they have) is enough normally for me to work out whether a board should be on my demo list or not.
Post by: Area 10 on March 28, 2019, 07:50:22 AM
I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything youve tried so far, for you. But since you arent willing to take the financial risk that would involve, well never know.
Post by: ukgm on March 28, 2019, 03:35:33 PM
ukgm - that might work for you since you will be talking to highly skilled riders. But most people arent. The information you get from less experienced paddlers is highly variable in quality.I reckon you could handle a narrower board with your self-professed balance excellence but since you arent willing to take the financial risk or put the hours in, well never know that either ;D
I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything youve tried so far, for you. But since you arent willing to take the financial risk that would involve, well never know.
Post by: burchas on March 28, 2019, 03:49:39 PM
I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything youve tried so far, for you. But since you arent willing to take the financial risk that would involve, well never know.
That's a tricky proposition though. The first part of this equation is whether you have good ability to asses your skills and be honest with your self rather than leave it to wishful thinking. It also requires
experimentation with various shapes and hone in on the set of features that work for you.
The second part could prove trickier as you need to find a good shaper who can translate your thoughts into your personal shape, something I found to be not so simple as many shapers have predetermine
mindset and always trying to inject their point of view which may not work for you. They also have to be really good craftsmen so they can build you a solid board that will be light as well.
It use to be easier back when it was just surfboards, simple and cheaper construction and by the 5th board you and the shaper are in sync. With sup it's different, by the 5th board you'll be
homeless and you'll need a board that can double as your home. If there was ever a good all-around shape, that would be it.
Post by: Area 10 on March 28, 2019, 07:11:38 PM
Au contraire, Pansy Potter, I did put my money where my mouth is, and I did find my limit. It was a humiliating and expensive experience. Like you, I decided at that point there there was no point competing any more. But then I didnt get much out of racing anyway - I enjoyed the training but the races were usually a rather hollow and dispiriting experience, far away from the joy of paddling. So now, unlike you, I just do the training. But it has to be on boards so wide that they would mark me out as a sad old man (which I am) at all but the smallest local races, where Id be getting my butt comprehensively kicked by the best 14 year-olds.ukgm - that might work for you since you will be talking to highly skilled riders. But most people arent. The information you get from less experienced paddlers is highly variable in quality.I reckon you could handle a narrower board with your self-professed balance excellence but since you arent willing to take the financial risk or put the hours in, well never know that either ;D
I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything youve tried so far, for you. But since you arent willing to take the financial risk that would involve, well never know.
But today I spent 2 hours surfing my raceboard in rippy conditions, and didnt fall in or wipeout at all in that session, which covered nearly 8 miles. And thats how I like it. Stable enough to rarely fall. In 15 or so years when you are my age and you cant even stand on the boards the teenagers are paddling, youll probably feel similarly. No need to make it any harder than it has to be. After 12 years of SUPing 4x week on average, and at my age, my balance skills arent going to miraculously improve not matter how much I struggle with a super-narrow board: I have reached a plateau determined by age and the hard demands of life.
Post by: Area 10 on March 28, 2019, 07:36:49 PM
This is all true, and Im just teasing the Strongmans Daughter (aka ukgm) for his lack of commitment to what is his seventh sport or somesuch. I have been through this process and got the (downwind) board I wanted partly by paddling with the shaper so he knew exactly what conditions I was facing, and partly by owning every damn downwind board anyone could own and learning from the failings of each. The resulting design (for which I am claiming no credit) is very unlike anything you could buy off the shelf. More conventional though will be my next custom (I hope), which is kinda like a mix between the SIC RS and the Bark Vapor, but with a slightly different (and more effective in my conditions) nose, which underneath is more like that of a mix between the noses of the C4 Switchblade and the Angulo Shaka. It wont be especially light because I dont have problems carrying heavy boards, and Id prefer a durable and super-stiff layup to a light and more fragile one. But it will be fast nevertheless, and tough, and optimised to flatter my (dis)abilities, and probably wont cost more than one of those wobbly rolly Nelo boards that few can use. Ive paddled a 12-6x24 version of the design and it goes like stink.I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything youve tried so far, for you. But since you arent willing to take the financial risk that would involve, well never know.
That's a tricky proposition though. The first part of this equation is whether you have good ability to asses your skills and be honest with your self rather than leave it to wishful thinking. It also requires
experimentation with various shapes and hone in on the set of features that work for you.
The second part could prove trickier as you need to find a good shaper who can translate your thoughts into your personal shape, something I found to be not so simple as many shapers have predetermine
mindset and always trying to inject their point of view which may not work for you. They also have to be really good craftsmen so they can build you a solid board that will be light as well.
It use to be easier back when it was just surfboards, simple and cheaper construction and by the 5th board you and the shaper are in sync. With sup it's different, by the 5th board you'll be
homeless and you'll need a board that can double as your home. If there was ever a good all-around shape, that would be it.
So yes, you have to put the hours in if you want to get a custom board that is truly customised to you, and works superbly for you. But it is possible, and it is worth it, IMO.
Post by: ukgm on March 29, 2019, 01:14:00 AM
Au contraire, Pansy Potter, I did put my money where my mouth is, and I did find my limit. It was a humiliating and expensive experience. Like you, I decided at that point there there was no point competing any more. But then I didnt get much out of racing anyway - I enjoyed the training but the races were usually a rather hollow and dispiriting experience, far away from the joy of paddling. So now, unlike you, I just do the training. But it has to be on boards so wide that they would mark me out as a sad old man (which I am) at all but the smallest local races, where Id be getting my butt comprehensively kicked by the best 14 year-olds.ukgm - that might work for you since you will be talking to highly skilled riders. But most people arent. The information you get from less experienced paddlers is highly variable in quality.I reckon you could handle a narrower board with your self-professed balance excellence but since you arent willing to take the financial risk or put the hours in, well never know that either ;D
I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything youve tried so far, for you. But since you arent willing to take the financial risk that would involve, well never know.
But today I spent 2 hours surfing my raceboard in rippy conditions, and didnt fall in or wipeout at all in that session, which covered nearly 8 miles. And thats how I like it. Stable enough to rarely fall. In 15 or so years when you are my age and you cant even stand on the boards the teenagers are paddling, youll probably feel similarly. No need to make it any harder than it has to be. After 12 years of SUPing 4x week on average, and at my age, my balance skills arent going to miraculously improve not matter how much I struggle with a super-narrow board: I have reached a plateau determined by age and the hard demands of life.
Personally, you should have done my event this weekend and kicked some wrinkly arse in your age group. We'll never know the result of that either. Nobody uses a narrow board past 50 ;D
Post by: Area 10 on March 29, 2019, 03:53:44 AM
Id rather be catching clean little offshore waves on my unlimited board instead, Im afraid, hooting my friends great waves, saying hello to the curious seals, and revelling in the peaceful sunset, far away from the competitive demands of working life.
Post by: photofr on March 29, 2019, 10:31:21 AM
Au contraire, Pansy Potter, I did put my money where my mouth is, and I did find my limit. It was a humiliating and expensive experience. Like you, I decided at that point there there was no point competing any more. But then I didnt get much out of racing anyway - I enjoyed the training but the races were usually a rather hollow and dispiriting experience, far away from the joy of paddling. So now, unlike you, I just do the training. But it has to be on boards so wide that they would mark me out as a sad old man (which I am) at all but the smallest local races, where Id be getting my butt comprehensively kicked by the best 14 year-olds.ukgm - that might work for you since you will be talking to highly skilled riders. But most people arent. The information you get from less experienced paddlers is highly variable in quality.I reckon you could handle a narrower board with your self-professed balance excellence but since you arent willing to take the financial risk or put the hours in, well never know that either ;D
I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything youve tried so far, for you. But since you arent willing to take the financial risk that would involve, well never know.
But today I spent 2 hours surfing my raceboard in rippy conditions, and didnt fall in or wipeout at all in that session, which covered nearly 8 miles. And thats how I like it. Stable enough to rarely fall. In 15 or so years when you are my age and you cant even stand on the boards the teenagers are paddling, youll probably feel similarly. No need to make it any harder than it has to be. After 12 years of SUPing 4x week on average, and at my age, my balance skills arent going to miraculously improve not matter how much I struggle with a super-narrow board: I have reached a plateau determined by age and the hard demands of life.
Personally, you should have done my event this weekend and kicked some wrinkly arse in your age group. We'll never know the result of that either. Nobody uses a narrow board past 50 ;D
Good one UKGM -
You do realise though, that I am 51 ?!?!
Post by: Area 10 on March 29, 2019, 12:36:56 PM
Post by: Luc Benac on April 04, 2019, 02:43:04 PM
https://www.facebook.com/zoltandoterdelyi/posts/10214809554896701?__tn__=K-R (https://www.facebook.com/zoltandoterdelyi/posts/10214809554896701?__tn__=K-R)
Post by: Luc Benac on April 04, 2019, 04:46:10 PM
Post by: Area 10 on April 04, 2019, 06:21:29 PM
Review by ZoltanNot quite sure what to make of that review, except that it sounded like several experienced Ive had om boards that were too tippy for me.
https://www.facebook.com/zoltandoterdelyi/posts/10214809554896701?__tn__=K-R (https://www.facebook.com/zoltandoterdelyi/posts/10214809554896701?__tn__=K-R)
But he won a sprint championship on a nelo board last weekend so Im guessing hes fully on board with it, if youll forgive the pun.
Post by: photofr on April 04, 2019, 09:35:13 PM
- The board is voluminous.
- That volume is a welcome addition for open water.
I'd still prefer a whole lot less volume though... no doubt about it for my featherweight.
Post by: ukgm on April 05, 2019, 12:00:00 AM
He did not say if he was to become a team rider or whatever is the equivalent and race next year sponsored by Nelo and Braca or not at all.
He isn't a team rider. He's currently being loaned demo boards by the UK's distributor on a short-term basis. However, a paddler of his standard (he's ex-C1 Hungarian national squad), will no doubt be pursuing such an arrangement at some point I would imagine. I would say that his account provides some natural bias towards that. However, you can read that account as someone out there using a tippy board...... albeit in very challenging conditions (I was out there round the corner on a demo Nelo surf ski having a similar experience but I didn't see it as a negative thing either - some might).
For what its worth, he's raced the 24.75 twice now. One was a winter low key race a fortnight ago (beating our longstanding national champion in the process) and the second was a win in our National Sprint Championships last weekend. He's got the skills to eventually tame the 23 width of that board but aside from the likes of Bruno (who currently has got social media footage of him using a 22 inch version in rough water at full speed), the 23 inch width boards are frankly beyond 99.9% of us in my view.
Post by: Luc Benac on April 05, 2019, 10:56:16 AM
He did not say if he was to become a team rider or whatever is the equivalent and race next year sponsored by Nelo and Braca or not at all.
He isn't a team rider. He's currently being loaned demo boards by the UK's distributor on a short-term basis. However, a paddler of his standard (he's ex-C1 Hungarian national squad), will no doubt be pursuing such an arrangement at some point I would imagine.
I thought that he might be considering this with Nelo if the board(s) were to his liking. And it looks like this might be the case so Nelo could challenge Starboard and their Sprint for Elite racing boards. Good for them. This might entice them to also design boards for everyone else or entice other brands to adopt the technology (like ONE might be doing on UL boards) in their standard lineup. A true all-around board with nice lines might be in the making somewhere and there might also be less length limitations be it because of blanks or weight. The era of the one board, 16 foot long included in a standard catalog might be soon upon us :-)
Post by: Area 10 on April 05, 2019, 01:28:54 PM
Post by: LoudounSUP on June 30, 2020, 05:28:24 PM
Post by: burchas on June 30, 2020, 06:03:41 PM
Still no USA dealers for these boards? It appears to still be a Europe only thing, bummer.
Not a real tragedy. If you are eying a aboard like that, maybe even better, look at https://www.facebook.com/SpeedboardUSA.
Not my taste but looks fast. Done at same NELO factory, designed by a long time US board manufacturer Speedboard.
Should be coming up for sale very soon If not already.
Post by: SupSimcoe on August 16, 2020, 04:25:03 PM
Tried the 24.5 first and found primary stability to be pretty well non existent and secondary to be pretty good. The lightness was instantly felt with the first strokes and acceleration is incredible. It was the fastest sprinting board I have ever been on. The light weight also makes steering ver6 easy as a quick draw with the paddle will quickly move the nose to the side. I could paddle on one side all day on the board. Top speed average was pretty good at around 5.8 mph. Felt good enough on this board to go into one meter waves within 10 minutes. Going upwind was interesting as the light front would get pushed around a bit and the feel and sounds from the hollow construction were odd. It was not bad on the waves but I would need more work to be able to catch the Bumps as I was still rolling to much to put the power down to catch the waves. Overall I like the board but it was not fast enough on average to make me want to switch.
Now for the 23. I can say for sure that this board is fast. Easily able to get into the over 6 mph average on flat water and sprints into 9mph are possible. The issue is there is again almost no primary stability but also almost no secondary so I did not go out in the waves. I also was sinking the board to the standing area so tak8ng water in every slight tip and I am 150 lbs. Not a board that I would like for cold water and also not a board I could easily use in chop or waves without a lot of practice. One other note is due to the sides design as they get wider as they go down I was really cramped and found my feet pressing ver6 hard on the sides as I was trying to get my feet wider. This was not really an issue on the 24.5 just the 23. Also these were newer boards and had the pads all the way to the sides so at least I had padding.
So the next question is would I buy one? The answer is I do not think so the 23 is the speed I want but it was not stable enough compared to other boards on the market. I think they need some straiter and higher rails with a side which allows for a wider stance before I would get one.
Post by: Area 10 on August 16, 2020, 04:42:18 PM
Post by: PonoBill on August 17, 2020, 07:41:30 AM
Post by: burchas on August 17, 2020, 09:11:01 AM
...If so they could add a little flare to the sides to gain secondary stability without compromising the waterline width...
That exactly what Bob Blair did on his new SpeedBoards, also manufactured by NELO:
https://speedboardusa.com/product/speeder-ss/
Post by: tarquin on August 17, 2020, 11:42:17 AM
Then the first time I paddled it I understood very quickly why they have flat bottoms.
Post by: burchas on August 17, 2020, 12:21:34 PM
First board I designed and built I thought what are all these idiots doing making flat bottom boards. I am going to have rounded bottom like a kayak. Much faster.
Then the first time I paddled it I understood very quickly why they have flat bottoms.
Some add the 4Drive system to control the roll on a rounded bottom. I think the next batch of the Speedboards will also include that.
Post by: tarquin on August 17, 2020, 01:11:27 PM
Surely at some point the drag of the extra fins will negate the supposed faster hull shape. Weight of extra fin boxes?
The faster you go the more drag fins will create. A good hull shape will lift/plane and create less wetted surface area???
Post by: Area 10 on August 17, 2020, 01:52:55 PM
But we are still.learming. 10 years ago as SUP racing was in its infancy, this wouid not have been thought possibke: 17.1kph.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CDteLNvIdm3/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
Post by: burchas on August 17, 2020, 02:43:35 PM
What is that board? I have seen some pics of it before.
Surely at some point the drag of the extra fins will negate the supposed faster hull shape. Weight of extra fin boxes?
The faster you go the more drag fins will create. A good hull shape will lift/plane and create less wetted surface area???
You lost me at the weight of extra fin boxes ::) I just don't have a comeback for that.
There is a long loooong thread about the subject here so I let you educate your self if you care. I don't think this is the thread for it, until it is...
Post by: LoudounSUP on August 17, 2020, 06:22:55 PM
Finally got to try some Nelo Lightboard Corp Signature 2 boards. Tried both the 24.5 and 23.
So the next question is would I buy one? The answer is I do not think so the 23 is the speed I want but it was not stable enough compared to other boards on the market. I think they need some straiter and higher rails with a side which allows for a wider stance before I would get one.
This is an awesome review and just want I needed (thank you!). I was considering the 23" flatwater Speeder SS board but at 183 lbs, I'm thinking no. Also, as a new paddler, I need both primary and secondary stability. So, what would be a good board for a progressing flatwater paddler? SIC RS at 14x24.5?
Post by: SupSimcoe on August 17, 2020, 06:58:07 PM
I just got a 2020 Staboard Sprint 14*20.75 and that is more stable than my 23 inch wide wood paddleboard which I reviewed a few years ago when I built it and that board is more stable than the Nelo 23 even though it is a flat deck. I would assume that the wider Sprints are insanely stable. I was looking at the new speed boards but the lack of any volume in the rear and no pad on the rear, it sure why they did that as they are race boards and need to pivot turn, made that decision for me.
I have not tried a SIC yet so I would have to leave it up to others to comment.
I have also been on the wider nose boards like the Infinity Blackfish and Jimmy Lewis Sidewider but I hate the wide hoof noses as they pitch up and down more in upwinders and slap the water on flats which bugs me. But the new dugout AllStar may be a very nice option for that type of board.
Post by: Area 10 on August 17, 2020, 07:17:45 PM
I'm suspect that a dedicated flat water racer with good balance could find a narrower or more dedicated flat water board. But I find myself faster on more stable boards, so the RS 24.5 is perfect for me. Its just a shame thst the deckpad gets grubby so quickly.
Post by: PonoBill on August 17, 2020, 08:28:32 PM
What is that board? I have seen some pics of it before.
Surely at some point the drag of the extra fins will negate the supposed faster hull shape. Weight of extra fin boxes?
The faster you go the more drag fins will create. A good hull shape will lift/plane and create less wetted surface area???
You'd think so, but not really. You can have one big one or four little ones. the benefit of the little ones is that you can make them for what you need to have done and locate them where you need them most. the ventral fin, for example, resists the turning moment that having your paddle force applied some distance from the centerline causes. A rear fin won't do that as efficiently. Ignoring the ventral fin for a moment, I have some theories as to why the three fin setup on some boards is faster than a single fin, but I haven't done any testing other than just paddling an Infinity with a huge variety of fin setups and a good doppler GPS speedometer. Three small fins and a small ventral won in every case. It's a bullshit test, but that's what I did. And yes, there's a lot of stuff here on the zone about that if you care to search.
And you can't say the word "plane" in a post about SUPs and maintain any shred of credibility. At least not with me. When you find a human that can generate three horsepower I'll listen. Again--endless tiresome debate about that here, incredibly stupid, I should have just ignored it. Or referred them to anyone designing rowing shells with their hugely superior hull shape, their better oars, and full engagement of the large muscles. They could tell them that their boats should plane. Certainly, no one has thought about that in the several hundred years of serious experimentation and design that led to current boats.
Post by: tarquin on August 17, 2020, 10:43:08 PM
Post by: LoudounSUP on August 19, 2020, 03:14:49 AM
I have a 2020 SIC RS 14x24.5. It is easy speed, and very stable for its width. It is also useful that it is full PVC sandwich, and has all the trimmings like bungees, race handle etc.
I'm suspect that a dedicated flat water racer with good balance could find a narrower or more dedicated flat water board. But I find myself faster on more stable boards, so the RS 24.5 is perfect for me. Its just a shame thst the deckpad gets grubby so quickly.
Perfect, thanks for that. Its seems like both the SIC RS (14x24.5) and Starboard Sprint (14x24) have good primary and secondary stability. I'll be mostly on flatwater so perhaps that gives a slight edge to the Starboard?
Post by: Area 10 on August 19, 2020, 03:55:38 AM
Yes, possibly. I won't buy Starboard race boards these days though because in my opinion they are too badly made for the price. The graphics are also too gaudy for me - if I am spending a small.fortune then I want my board to be made to last and to look classy, not like it was drawn by a 5 year old with some leftover crayonsI have a 2020 SIC RS 14x24.5. It is easy speed, and very stable for its width. It is also useful that it is full PVC sandwich, and has all the trimmings like bungees, race handle etc.
I'm suspect that a dedicated flat water racer with good balance could find a narrower or more dedicated flat water board. But I find myself faster on more stable boards, so the RS 24.5 is perfect for me. Its just a shame thst the deckpad gets grubby so quickly.
Perfect, thanks for that. Its seems like both the SIC RS (14x24.5) and Starboard Sprint (14x24) have good primary and secondary stability. I'll be mostly on flatwater so perhaps that gives a slight edge to the Starboard?
But these are highly personal opinions. Many people don't intend to keep their boards for long, and aren't at all bothered by looks or the finer points of construction, and orefer more extrovert graphics.