Post by: ukgm on April 12, 2017, 07:46:47 AM
Post by: Board Stiff on April 12, 2017, 10:46:49 AM
But seriously, any more details you can share?
Post by: ukgm on April 12, 2017, 10:59:13 AM
Please, no 2018 rumors while I'm still trying to make up my mind on a 2017! ;D
Don't buy 2017, we're too deep into the season, the 2018 stuff will surface soon and if that doesn't suit you, the sales will start in less than 6 months.
Post by: Board Stiff on April 12, 2017, 11:20:32 AM
Post by: viatormundi on April 12, 2017, 12:59:24 PM
Post by: burchas on April 12, 2017, 06:52:35 PM
I'm starting to hear whispers that in 2018 a couple of brands may well be moving even further towards focusing on all conditions boards and away (or even ditching) condition specific board specializations. Anyone else heard anything yet ? We've got Lost Mills next month so that might shed some light on what's coming.
It sounds more like you're fishing for information ;) if you heared something please share so we can further dig in...
I'll definitely echo your suggestion to hold off on 2017, at least until OR this summer.
But if you're looking to check the pulse on new boards, stay tuned for Carolina Cup...
Post by: ukgm on April 13, 2017, 09:12:18 AM
I'm starting to hear whispers that in 2018 a couple of brands may well be moving even further towards focusing on all conditions boards and away (or even ditching) condition specific board specializations. Anyone else heard anything yet ? We've got Lost Mills next month so that might shed some light on what's coming.
But if you're looking to check the pulse on new boards, stay tuned for Carolina Cup...
Do new boards appear there that early ?
Post by: burchas on April 13, 2017, 09:28:10 AM
I'm starting to hear whispers that in 2018 a couple of brands may well be moving even further towards focusing on all conditions boards and away (or even ditching) condition specific board specializations. Anyone else heard anything yet ? We've got Lost Mills next month so that might shed some light on what's coming.
But if you're looking to check the pulse on new boards, stay tuned for Carolina Cup...
Do new boards appear there that early ?
Indeed they do. Even earlier than that.
Take a closer look at the recent world tour race in Maui. You could see some 2018 models
there. Some maybe easier to spot since they are not an existing models in a company lineup (SIC), but some are just an evolution of existing models (Focus).
The stakes at the Carolina Cup are even higher and the competition this year I read will be the
most fierce in the history of the event so draw your conclusion.
Post by: Rideordie on April 20, 2017, 08:12:02 AM
I will be heading out tomorrow for the Carolina Cup. Not racing this year, but I will be watching closely, testing all the boards and having a few beers. PM me if you are going and want to say hello. I'll buy you a beer and we can talk boards.
Post by: Area 10 on April 20, 2017, 11:30:35 AM
What I heard is that more brands will have concave bottom shapes like the Allstars. I don't believe in this one board does all thing. In pure flatwater conditions boards like Strike or Sprint are faster. In medium chop boards like Sidewinder or Allstar excel and in downwind a real downwind board is faster such as Bullet or Rail.Yes. But I think that the "all-waters" type designs are popular largely because they make drafting easier, as well as the fact that you can buoy turn them more easily (than flat water boards) and are better for beach starts etc. Plus you can go narrower for a given stability. In other words, they are popular for racing because of their ease of handling rather than their out-and-out speed. Planing-nose boards can however be surprisingly quick over very short sprint distances, if you have the power.
So I think the choice of these boards by racers substantially reflects the realities of racing formats these days. If we raced in lanes, or mostly raced big downwind, then the boards would look different.
Btw, don't try telling the ardent Ace fans here that a Bullet or Rail is faster downwind than their board. They'll start foaming at the mouth and posting videos of talented youngsters with the balance of gymnasts and energy that makes the energizer bunny look like a sloth doing impossible things in a standup clog :)
Post by: PonoBill on April 20, 2017, 11:38:57 AM
So the newest designs are somewhat interesting but mostly irrelevant. They all seem to be tweaking "use case" rather than performance. That's because at 14' there isn't much to tweak. If you want to go fast in the flats, then make it as narrow as you can, and flat on the bottom, and keep as much of the board in the water as you can. That's as fast as you can go in flatwater.
A very accomplished paddler in somewhat rougher water could probably gain some speed with a bottom shape that optimized pumping. How many people can maintain a race-quality stroke while pumping a board consistently for the duration of a race? Two? Three? Of course, you can sell performance to people who will never have the athletic prowess to perform. Suckers like me fall for that every time.
Post by: viatormundi on April 20, 2017, 11:43:30 AM
What I heard is that more brands will have concave bottom shapes like the Allstars. I don't believe in this one board does all thing. In pure flatwater conditions boards like Strike or Sprint are faster. In medium chop boards like Sidewinder or Allstar excel and in downwind a real downwind board is faster such as Bullet or Rail.Yes. But I think that the "all-waters" type designs are popular largely because they make drafting easier, as well as the fact that you can buoy turn them more easily (than flat water boards) and are better for beach starts etc. Plus you can go narrower for a given stability. In other words, they are popular for racing because of their ease of handling rather than their out-and-out speed. Planing-nose boards can however be surprisingly quick over very short sprint distances, if you have the power.
So I think the choice of these boards by racers substantially reflects the realities of racing formats these days. If we raced in lanes, or mostly raced big downwind, then the boards would look different.
Btw, don't try telling the ardent Ace fans here that a Bullet or Rail is faster downwind than their board. They'll start foaming at the mouth and posting videos of talented youngsters with the balance of gymnasts and energy that makes the energizer bunny look like a sloth doing impossible things in a standup clog :)
Totally agree!
Post by: Board Stiff on April 20, 2017, 12:28:13 PM
Yes. But I think that the "all-waters" type designs are popular largely because they make drafting easier, as well as the fact that you can buoy turn them more easily (than flat water boards) and are better for beach starts etc. Plus you can go narrower for a given stability. In other words, they are popular for racing because of their ease of handling rather than their out-and-out speed. Planing-nose boards can however be surprisingly quick over very short sprint distances, if you have the power.
At least for the casual racer, a big attraction of these boards is that you can race them effectively (or at least enjoyably) in a wider range of conditions (including changing or unpredictable conditions). A 14x25 "all-water" board might be a little slower in glassy water than a narrower shape that's optimized for clean conditions, but realistically for me, the difference probably doesn't even put me one place higher/lower in the middle of the pack final results. But when conditions get a little messy, I'm probably falling quite a few places behind and having a lot less fun on the narrow flatwater-optimized board, as I'm falling in constantly and wasting energy balancing instead of paddling with power and form.
At least that's what I told myself when I ordered a new Sidewinder! :D
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on April 20, 2017, 01:14:21 PM
That's interesting what Pono Bill said about "use case" being the focus now instead of performance. Also interesting about a narrow flat bottom board with maximum waterline being the fastest for pure flat water. Bill, what are some board models that you think are already optimally shaped for pure flatwater speed? Does the StarBoard Sprint count even though it has the funny concaves on the bottom? What about the idea that some flatwater board shapes are fastest in short sprints where they can get some lift and others with more cutting bows are faster for longer hauls in flatwater? Riviera made some tongue-depressor shaped variants on their RP raceboard that they recommend for short sprint and surf races but say are less efficient for long distance paddling. https://www.rivierapaddlesurf.com/collections/sup-used/products/14x22-rp-raceboard-2
Post by: TallDude on April 20, 2017, 02:20:31 PM
Also interesting about a narrow flat bottom board with maximum waterline being the fastest for pure flat water. Bill, what are some board models that you think are already optimally shaped for pure flatwater speed?I'll answer that. Anything narrower than 24" and longer than 14'. This was, is, and still will be the fastest board I have ever wobbled through a flat water race on. It was designed over 10 years ago. It's 19'8 x 22.5" . So if you want the fastest board, don't wait for next years models. You have to have it custom made... for you. ;) If only Craig Richmond would start making SUP race boards again.
Post by: Rideordie on April 20, 2017, 02:35:19 PM
Post by: TallDude on April 20, 2017, 03:15:00 PM
It's a bird...It's a plane, It's TallDude and not too far behind the pack. ::)
It's just the big and tall (or just heavy) dilemma. Nothing of the rack (14') is going to be right for us.
Post by: Area 10 on April 20, 2017, 03:50:21 PM
I believe that for most people, a 2" wider displacement nose board is faster than a 2" narrower planing nose one in most conditions that racers will face. But paddlers are so fixated on going narrow now that they don't seriously consider it. The only issue really is drafting. But for many people that is becoming the whole secret to race success.Yes. But I think that the "all-waters" type designs are popular largely because they make drafting easier, as well as the fact that you can buoy turn them more easily (than flat water boards) and are better for beach starts etc. Plus you can go narrower for a given stability. In other words, they are popular for racing because of their ease of handling rather than their out-and-out speed. Planing-nose boards can however be surprisingly quick over very short sprint distances, if you have the power.
At least for the casual racer, a big attraction of these boards is that you can race them effectively (or at least enjoyably) in a wider range of conditions (including changing or unpredictable conditions). A 14x25 "all-water" board might be a little slower in glassy water than a narrower shape that's optimized for clean conditions, but realistically for me, the difference probably doesn't even put me one place higher/lower in the middle of the pack final results. But when conditions get a little messy, I'm probably falling quite a few places behind and having a lot less fun on the narrow flatwater-optimized board, as I'm falling in constantly and wasting energy balancing instead of paddling with power and form.
At least that's what I told myself when I ordered a new Sidewinder! :D
We started off with displacement noses (once past the Naish Glide V1 stage) on race boards (e.g. Bark Dominator). IMO the pendulum will swing back one day, once people realise that what you are pushing in front of you is more important in terms of drag than a couple of inches width where you are standing. I suspect that people discount displacement designs these days because they think they are too specialised but in fact unless they are crazy extreme designs (think Fanatic Strike V1) they are actually surprisingly adaptable.
Post by: ukgm on April 21, 2017, 01:46:08 AM
I heard a rumor that a big blue board brand was going to shift marketing focus from their all-water board to their flatwater board, which they will tweak a bit and start recommending for anything flatter than knee high chop.
Conversely, I was speaking to a brand rep this week who told me that they were going to delete their flatwater model entirely - instead choosing to go with a tweaked all water board.
Post by: ukgm on April 21, 2017, 01:48:02 AM
I believe that for most people, a 2" wider displacement nose board is faster than a 2" narrower planing nose one in most conditions that racers will face. But paddlers are so fixated on going narrow now that they don't seriously consider it. The only issue really is drafting. But for many people that is becoming the whole secret to race success.
That and a good start. If you don't make that first train, no 23 inch board is going to save you. In other words, for 95% of the field, they likely should be selecting an allwater board as narrow as they can get full power out of.
Post by: yugi on April 21, 2017, 03:18:31 AM
I believe that for most people, a 2" wider displacement nose board is faster than a 2" narrower planing nose one in most conditions that racers will face.
... once people realise that what you are pushing in front of you is more important in terms of drag than a couple of inches width where you are standing. ...
Hmmmm... a good question. I'd like to have a data backed up answer to that. I'm not buying your confusion just like that.
I know you are a huge fan of a displacement nose [for flatwater speed] and you find a planing nose pushes water. I'm not so sure.
Of course widths are relative to a shape. For example a JL Rail is fish shaped and is 26.5 at the widest point but rides like a narrower board.
Anyone have any data on this? This stuff is so easy to tunnel test. Isn't anyone ever going to do that? ukgm, don't you have access to such facities at your university or at one nearby?
Post by: Area 10 on April 21, 2017, 04:15:56 AM
Do you think that Jo Hamilton-Vale would have been able to beat both the mens' and womens' world record for distance covered in 24 hours on a Naish Maliko - even one that is 2" narrower?
No chance.
https://youtu.be/xpk3qFex3rA
Post by: ukgm on April 21, 2017, 06:46:46 AM
Anyone have any data on this? This stuff is so easy to tunnel test. Isn't anyone ever going to do that? ukgm, don't you have access to such facities at your university or at one nearby?
I haven't but Southampton Uni near me has one but there wouldn't be the money or interest to fund the research. If a board company wants that done (and will bankroll), it would be easy to organise.
Post by: supthecreek on April 21, 2017, 07:40:08 AM
Burchas,
I will be heading out tomorrow for the Carolina Cup. Not racing this year, but I will be watching closely, testing all the boards and having a few beers. PM me if you are going and want to say hello. I'll buy you a beer and we can talk boards.
I am at the C Cup with Tino (owner of Sunova)
I believe we will have some new stuff on display at the Carolina Paddleboad Company tent.
Please look for me wandering around and say hi!
I'll be the one that doesn't look like a racer 😂
Tino is a crazy little German!
Post by: Luc Benac on April 21, 2017, 07:46:02 AM
Do you think that Jo Hamilton-Vale would have been able to beat both the mens' and womens' world record for distance covered in 24 hours on a Naish Maliko - even one that is 2" narrower?
https://youtu.be/xpk3qFex3rA
The flat water in the canals is mesmerizing.
I have not seen anything as flat for a couple of year, when able to catch a windless/current-less/tide less dawn paddle.
I would not share with anybody - least of all 200 sups :-)
Post by: warmuth on April 21, 2017, 08:05:50 AM
I believe that for most people, a 2" wider displacement nose board is faster than a 2" narrower planing nose one in most conditions that racers will face. But paddlers are so fixated on going narrow now that they don't seriously consider it. The only issue really is drafting. But for many people that is becoming the whole secret to race success.
That and a good start. If you don't make that first train, no 23 inch board is going to save you. In other words, for 95% of the field, they likely should be selecting an allwater board as narrow as they can get full power out of.
Its always a compromise in some area. A narrower all water board will be the best in some specific amount of rough water but not ideal for a flat race nor a rougher one. It will be decent at everything though so it's probably a prudent choice for a one board solution. I'd still always rather be on a flat water board in a flat water race though.
Post by: ukgm on April 21, 2017, 09:30:17 AM
I believe that for most people, a 2" wider displacement nose board is faster than a 2" narrower planing nose one in most conditions that racers will face. But paddlers are so fixated on going narrow now that they don't seriously consider it. The only issue really is drafting. But for many people that is becoming the whole secret to race success.
That and a good start. If you don't make that first train, no 23 inch board is going to save you. In other words, for 95% of the field, they likely should be selecting an allwater board as narrow as they can get full power out of.
Its always a compromise in some area. A narrower all water board will be the best in some specific amount of rough water but not ideal for a flat race nor a rougher one. It will be decent at everything though so it's probably a prudent choice for a one board solution. I'd still always rather be on a flat water board in a flat water race though.
My other point is that unless you're right at the front, you'll be in choppy water, not flat water for the first 10-15 mins.
Post by: Area 10 on April 21, 2017, 09:45:08 AM
However I just don't think that a person who considers themselves "a serious racer" would be seen dead on a board over 26" wide these days, whether in fact it would be faster for them or not.
Hard to beat the smoothness of a cutting bow in anything even approaching flat water.
https://youtu.be/4oN8GtBh0sU
Post by: Eagle on April 21, 2017, 10:36:24 AM
Oddly the amount of drag upwind of the Bullet V2 in breeze is not that bad for a surf nosed board - but the DW advantages seem to compensate more than expected. DW speed timed was the fastest ever for me - and was a big eye opener. That board glides like crazy DW. But balance and how tippy one feels is very personal -> and repeated timed runs make it pretty easy to sort through questions on speed vs width.
For flat would go FW specific like the Jav or Whip or Sprint. For chop or slop or DW -> the Maliko or BF or AS. Basically just move up a width if a board feels too tippy for you. For most top serious racers and pros though - a 23" wide board is super stable.
Larry makes that original 27.5 Dom fly but it has a ton of drag at sustained race pace. A narrower board can be more efficient like the D2 for many. Pulling a Dom at that constant speed is extremely hard. Have tried it many times as that board was my first board. But Larry is a special breed. ;)
Post by: ukgm on April 21, 2017, 11:19:30 AM
Well I reckon that ukgm would have been better off in the Head of the Dart river race he did recently on a 14x28" Bark Dominator than he was on his 14x26 Naish Maliko. That would be very simple to test.
However I just don't think that a person who considers themselves "a serious racer" would be seen dead on a board over 26" wide these days, whether in fact it would be faster for them or not.
Hard to beat the smoothness of a cutting bow in anything even approaching flat water.
https://youtu.be/4oN8GtBh0sU
If an ironing board was faster, I'd race that. I have no scruples about racing boards wider than 26 if it will make me faster.
Post by: yugi on April 21, 2017, 11:32:54 AM
Well, I've tested more boards than most over the last 10 years, and I'm a data freak. But try for yourself. The results might surprise you.
Do you think that Jo Hamilton-Vale would have been able to beat both the mens' and womens' world record for distance covered in 24 hours on a Naish Maliko - even one that is 2" narrower?
No chance.
Better, ask her to do it again w a Maliko. Twice, once for each width.
<duck>
Post by: yugi on April 21, 2017, 11:46:50 AM
Anyone have any data on this? This stuff is so easy to tunnel test. Isn't anyone ever going to do that? ukgm, don't you have access to such facities at your university or at one nearby?
I haven't but Southampton Uni near me has one but there wouldn't be the money or interest to fund the research. If a board company wants that done (and will bankroll), it would be easy to organise.
Thought Southampton would have one, since the VPLP design guys studied there. (I actually visited years ago).
Can't you just convince/suggest some students to do it as a thesis? I'm sure there are enough looking for a nice easy useful research to do. Hey, I'm an open source kind of guy. Richard Stallman finally convinced me.
Post by: Eagle on April 21, 2017, 12:23:24 PM
But still your own self timed results give the best answer for you vs bs speculation anyways. A stopwatch time and GPS distance both are very hard to dispute when repeated. ukgm what is your take on the race results this year vs last? How did your new Maliko 26 perform etc?
Post by: burchas on April 21, 2017, 02:03:51 PM
Burchas,
I will be heading out tomorrow for the Carolina Cup. Not racing this year, but I will be watching closely, testing all the boards and having a few beers. PM me if you are going and want to say hello. I'll buy you a beer and we can talk boards.
I am at the C Cup with Tino (owner of Sunova)
I believe we will have some new stuff on display at the Carolina Paddleboad Company tent.
Please look for me wandering around and say hi!
I'll be the one that doesn't look like a racer 😂
Tino is a crazy little German!
Creek, I think I was way ahead of you. Just as I was done demoing all their boards,
Tino showed up, the guy who was showing the boards didn't know who he is, I had introduced him. i guess I missed you :'(
Anyway, sick boards, their all- arounder 14x24 pro is a really solid board, very stable for its width, very light as well. def my favorite of all of them.
Their 14' dugout is also super slick, could definitely use the Larry Allison 4 fin
Treatment.
Post by: Luc Benac on April 21, 2017, 02:08:07 PM
Their 14' dugout is also super slick, could definitely use the Larry Allison 4 fin
Treatment.
On the Ace-like (red or green nose) dugout?
Have you tried the Faast Pro (not sure on the name) it is a flat water dugout?
Post by: burchas on April 21, 2017, 02:36:27 PM
Their 14' dugout is also super slick, could definitely use the Larry Allison 4 fin
Treatment.
On the Ace-like dugout?
Have you tried the Faast Pro (not sure on the name) it is a flat water dugout?
Yes I meant the Ace like board. I did try the Faast Pro. Nose is pretty good
The board is heavy compared to the all arounder. Didn't feel as good as the
Whiplash IMO.
The all arounder however feels very good, I did back to back run with it and the
Blackfish 23 2017. Very different boards, both super good. Def worth an extended look.
Post by: ukgm on April 21, 2017, 02:52:52 PM
Maurice Guy and Scott Warren improved their times a lot vs 2016. Others finished about the same and others a bit slower. Would be interesting to find out why those 2 in particular did so well this year. Maybe those answers would shed some light to whether board or training or whatever impacted their 2017 race results.
I can give you the exact answer to that. Mo moved from a 12'6 25 width sidewinder to a 2015 14ft 23 inch wide starboard Allstar. Scott warren moved from a 12'6 to a 14ft starboard sprint. It's also worth noting that his job changed to allow him more time to train too.
I made one of the biggest time gains of 2016 vs 2017 ;-)
Post by: Luc Benac on April 21, 2017, 05:06:14 PM
It's also worth noting that his job changed to allow him more time to train too.
Yes for us still having to work, the office gets a lot in the way of the paddling :-)
Not only in time but also in mental energy.
Post by: Luc Benac on April 21, 2017, 05:10:51 PM
The all arounder however feels very good, I did back to back run with it and the
Blackfish 23 2017. Very different boards, both super good. Def worth an extended look.
Good to know. So the all-rounder is the Faast Ocean?
God I hate their naming for the long SUPs, never know which board is which....
Post by: TallDude on April 21, 2017, 05:38:07 PM
Isn't that the 'F'n truth. Time on the water, don't pay the bills.... That is the difference for me as far as how well I do in a race (more than an inch narrower board). How much work I had the few months prior will dictate my finish time.It's also worth noting that his job changed to allow him more time to train too.
Yes for us still having to work, the office gets a lot in the way of the paddling :-)
Not only in time but also in mental energy.
Post by: Eagle on April 21, 2017, 08:28:43 PM
Much easier is the wider AS24.5 or even better yet the Bullet V2 because you can stand super far forward on that board DW. Speed DW might be a hair faster for the Bullet V2 once wind picks up to around 10 kts. Have found every board has its own power zone and its weak zone depending on conditions. No one board quiver for me. Yesterday the V2 was perfect and today the AS23 was perfect. Just enough each day to push my limits.
For my wife and I -> the boards we have are pretty much just right. Was considering getting a Sprint 23 or 21.5 but really the AS23 is still quite a handful in slop and rough ocean water. So sounds like you were happy with your new Maliko 26 then.
Post by: Area 10 on April 21, 2017, 11:31:33 PM
But let's not get fixated on particular boards, or board comparisons. I was only using that as an example. My point was that I believe that in flat water or mild chop a good cutting bow design is faster in a straight line (for most people, and over a reasonable distance) than a planing hull board that is 2" wider. I was NOT saying that the Dominator is the fastest race board out there. Of course it isn't.
Post by: ukgm on April 22, 2017, 12:28:51 AM
ukgm - The drop in times btwn the 12'6 vs the 14s was very substantial for both of them. Around 7 min or 8% faster. perfect and today the AS23 was perfect. Just enough each day to push my limits.
So sounds like you were happy with your new Maliko 26 then.
My 26 was ideal for me as there were 50 of us in the 14ft class packed into a narrow high sided walled river section. The chop on the line was massive but there was a huge train you had to be in at the start. My board is very forgiving and delivered on getting me to the right place. It struggled in the mid race glass section a bit but by that point it it came down to stamina anyway - many of us were holding a pace near or above 10kph.
You might find my light touch analysis article interesting about that race though here:
https://standuppaddlemag.co.uk/2017/04/10/race-intelligence-a-snapshot-analysis-from-the-head-of-the-dart-sup-race-2017/
Post by: Area 10 on April 22, 2017, 03:19:27 AM
Anyway, if anyone can sort out these kinds of performance/design issues it's you. It's nice to have a (slightly) bigger guy towards the top in UK racing again, and so have these discussions play themselves out all over again - but this time with someone who might be minded to persevere to uncover the principles at work.
Post by: burchas on April 22, 2017, 04:11:17 AM
Their new all water board ( called the RS ) looks like an hybrid of the
X pro and the Blackfish.
It even has a slight channel on the bottom towards the the tail, very much
Like the Blackfish but much more subtle. Nose is much sharper.
Tail is much narrower and the deck is recessed about 1 inch.
Rideordie, if you read this, look for Seychelle or Caio Vaz to see the board.
It looks like Caio is using all 4 fins for this race twin stealth, 6" Stinger and
A small ventral.
Post by: Area 10 on April 22, 2017, 05:25:30 AM
Post by: Eagle on April 22, 2017, 08:07:47 AM
ukgm - very nice analysis and my take as well. I kinda did the same sort of debrief when I was more serious about sailing. You can gain a ton of insight looking at nuanced information available. Sounds like the Maliko 26 gave you a really good result given your size and concerns. The lads on the 21-24 wide boards are cutting down to narrower boards just like over here -> and still getting faster times.
A10 - my point was the Dom 27.5 is a very wide board which has a ton of drag -> and if you want to go fast on that board it takes a ton of sustained power no matter what size you are. A narrower AS23 or 24.5 is much more efficient thru the water. Larry switched to a AS25 last year and explained how much faster that board was for him vs the 2015 version. Not many top racers use 25+ wide boards any more. Just zaps way too much power with a ton of drag. Even I can feel that as a really crappy paddler.
"The 2015 All Star was a hands down winner over the other brands I tested. The only board I tested that outperformed it was the 2015 Starboard Sprint."
http://www.larrycain.ca/blog/blog/
Post by: Area 10 on April 22, 2017, 08:11:24 AM
Post by: Area 10 on April 22, 2017, 08:14:44 AM
Post by: Eagle on April 22, 2017, 08:19:35 AM
Post by: ukgm on April 22, 2017, 10:11:57 AM
Aww.... c'mon - no pics of the RS???!! Somebody please get your phone out and snap a pic or two and post it here for us to drool at and speculate about. It sounds great, and something I'd definitely be interested in.
Can anyone see if any of the big brands have new designs there ?
Post by: ukgm on April 22, 2017, 10:19:05 AM
Well it seems perhaps to me that in your particular case ukgm you are in a bit of a bind. Naish don't make a flat water board that is wider than 26", and because of your size and power, and the low volume of the Naish designs, you need 26" wide to be able to use your power. So, while nearly all the top guys in that race were (unsurprisingly since it's a river race) on flat water boards, you couldn't be. You actually got a remarkable pace out of a planing design, and that is testament both to your skill and endurance and also the Maliko design. But if there was a 28" wide Jav this year, I reckon you'd have found it stable enough for the choppy bits but slightly faster in the calm bits. Not a lot, but a bit. Anyway, we'll never know I guess. You could borrow an old Dominator I suppose, and time yourself on that. It's funny because some of the (wider) cutting nose boards don't feel particularly fast because human proprioception seems to be more sensitive to changes in speed than top or mean speed. So boards that accelerate well but also decelerate quite a bit can feel faster I think than those that maintain a higher average speed. I guess that's why we need GPS.
Anyway, if anyone can sort out these kinds of performance/design issues it's you. It's nice to have a (slightly) bigger guy towards the top in UK racing again, and so have these discussions play themselves out all over again - but this time with someone who might be minded to persevere to uncover the principles at work.
I've had a heads up of what Naish have planned for 2018 . If what I was told is true, it could be very interesting. I'll hold judgement until I see photos and specs though but my choices are always going to be more limited than most. I may get forced in the end to go custom if brands drop volume but I think at my height 25 is going to be my natural width ceiling. Having done a quick survey, I'm 3-4 inches taller and 5-10kgs heavier than most other comparable uk racers. The advantage I gave is that I'm only on SUP year 3 whereas everyone else are much more seasoned. That's probably why my time reduction at that race was go large.
Let's say starboard work on the concept of the sprint being slightly more versatile in chop (as someone mentioned earlier) - isn't that what the 2015 race was ?
Post by: Luc Benac on April 22, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
Let's say starboard work on the concept of the sprint being slightly more versatile in chop (as someone mentioned earlier) - isn't that what the 2015 race was ?
The 2015 Race was not a stable board at all. It could be fast of course but kind of wobbly.
Weight is definitely an issue - says the 170 lbs.....
At my weight at this stage if I was looking at a flat water board for non-racer, I would likely look at the Bark D2 or a Riviera both low volume and potentially available on the used market. The D2 likely my first choice at 26" wide. The Whiplash could also be an option but I do not want a board with a high deck and lot of volume.
If money was no object then of course.....I could see a custom Ban Pho or Riviera 16'x26" or something of the kind.
But realistically, I would just be thrilled to be able to upgrade my Blackfish 2015 to a 2017 and have a foot a little bit more into flat-water.
Post by: Eagle on April 22, 2017, 01:37:53 PM
The drawbacks are the big single concave is not optimal DW as the reviewer notes. The Race 25 is very squirrelly - but the AS23 does catch and trip with all its longitudinal edges. Simple design compromises. The AS23 always feels like it wants to go straight vs turn -> but DW you want your board to turn fast and surf and plane. The flat M14 does this well plus the panel vee Bullet V2 even better. But the AS24.5 and especially AS23 not nearly as well. The Maliko 26 and 24 would probs be much better DW. Am still looking for a Maliko 24 btw for my wife. Would be a very fast fun DW board by the looks of it.
As noted in my PM the other day -> the Race 25 is very tippy which correlates to what the reviewer refers to as twitchy even in the 27.5 he tested. He is not exaggerating. At all. Would source a used AS25 and put on LA quads as noted. The AS25 rolls but is pretty hard to fall off for most racing peeps. ;)
"This All Star is very fast and slippery feeling. Not the most stable, but the glide and acceleration are excellent. It would be best-suited for advanced and expert paddlers up to +/- 185 lbs. who want a fast board in a wide variety of conditions."
https://www.bigwinds.com/sup-blog/2015-Performance-Race-Board-Test
https://youtu.be/6S9AAp2uh4s
Post by: Eagle on April 22, 2017, 02:04:47 PM
Starboard All Star 14' x 25” Custom Carbon 269 L. 25 lbs -> Speed 10
Bark D2 14’ x 26” Pro Elite 238 L. 27 lbs -> Speed 9
Naish Javelin LE 14’ x 26” 250 L. 20 lbs -> Speed 8.5
Infinity Blackfish ST 14’ x 26” Custom Carbon 22 lbs -> Speed 8
SIC X-14 Pro Lite 14’ x 24” 253 L. 23 lbs -> Speed 10
SIC X-14 Pro 14’ x 26” 253 L. 23 lbs -> Speed 9
Post by: burchas on April 22, 2017, 04:57:32 PM
Aww.... c'mon - no pics of the RS???!! Somebody please get your phone out and snap a pic or two and post it here for us to drool at and speculate about. It sounds great, and something I'd definitely be interested in.
Can anyone see if any of the big brands have new designs there ?
Here is the RS 14(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/c044eb543395ae19c3d639aa3cf214f4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/1f62e7aed597d580167d38512eaa8195.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/636983ac44d33fc658d6735608f8f91b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/2d3af44afe2be3dce3ff94a9b1ac23b4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170422/bec91540bac83685ce26401d71400571.jpg)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: Luc Benac on April 22, 2017, 05:17:45 PM
Not that it means much at this stage. The FX Pro was going to be 26" and lower volume based on the prototype and then ended-up what it is...
Running the triple but no ventral? >>> sorry you answered that one in your original post... all 4 fins, nice.
Post by: Area 10 on April 22, 2017, 05:19:23 PM
Looks like the RS should be pretty stable for its width. I'm surprised the deck isn't lowered just a little bit more. That's what I was expecting. But maybe if it's got eg. the PPG in mind, then you'd want to minimise the deck lowering. I'd love to try one, it could be a very adaptable shape. Do you know what sizes it will be coming in?
Post by: Luc Benac on April 22, 2017, 05:28:49 PM
Great pics, burchas, thanks very much.
I'm surprised the deck isn't lowered just a little bit more. That's what I was expecting.
Yes I am looking more and more to this on a board flat/chop. More than 4.5 or 5 inches is not my preference.
Post by: burchas on April 22, 2017, 05:57:26 PM
The dude is a monster, he did 8 minutes behind Annabel, and today was the
Worst day you can pick not to be in good paddling shape. Shows the raw talent the dude has (40 over all, considering Michael booth was 13th).
I helped him put the fins on the board cause he couldn't figure out how the
Twins work and the position of the center fin in relation to the twins.
I think the board was 24" and I think at the standing area is about 5'
Seychelle's board seemed a little different size wise but I'm not too sure about it
She ran a vmg 35Sqi fin and the small ventral and She also had ptreety good results considering she has no downwind experience and today was the day to use it to your advantage. This really demonstrate the board's abilities and the fact they chose to go with Larry's 4 fin setup for their production is a writing on the wall for what's to come.
Post by: Eagle on April 22, 2017, 07:05:57 PM
Larry 28th 2:23
Caio 42nd 2:37
Annabel 1st 2:29
Seychelle 5th 2:41
“If I’m being honest, it’s like I towed [Fiona] for over an hour,” Anderson said. “Eventually it was like, it’s time to have a race. Side-by-side and I literally blew through a train of guys in front of me and got a big gap. So, number five.” :o ;D
http://www.supthemag.com/news/titouan-puyo-annabel-anderson-win-2017-carolina-cup/#fvJpL345ZK4kICVS.97
http://www.supracer.com/2017-carolina-cup-paddleboard-race-results/
Post by: Luc Benac on April 22, 2017, 07:33:09 PM
I helped him put the fins on the board cause he couldn't figure out how the
Twins work and the position of the center fin in relation to the twins.
So you were the perfect support technician with access to the boards :-) No test drive just to make sure....
This really demonstrate the board's abilities and the fact they chose to go with Larry's 4 fin setup for their production is a writing on the wall for what's to come.
So these are production boards and not prototypes?
Post by: Area 10 on April 22, 2017, 07:42:37 PM
Nice to see a greater variety of brands represented towards the top, including some relatively niche ones.
Post by: supthecreek on April 22, 2017, 08:15:01 PM
Graveyard 13 mile race
Wind 15-20 mph
Downwind in ocean 1/2
Upwind in flatwater 1/2
Kelly Margetts was riding a Sunova Ocean Faast Pro 14' x 24"
43 years old
7th place - 1 min 35 sec off the winners time
Kelly was leading the 3rd group at the halfway, then improved to 7th with a strong 2nd half.
I am not a racer, don't claim to know anything about boards or racers.
Just giving you what I see.
Post by: Eagle on April 22, 2017, 08:21:23 PM
Edit - both AA and TP were with SB prev
http://www.supracer.com/titouan-puyo-nsp/
Post by: burchas on April 22, 2017, 11:44:34 PM
Kelly Margetts was riding a Sunova Ocean Faast Pro 14' x 24"
43 years old
7th place - 1 min 35 sec off the winners time
Just to echo creek, Kelly Margetts result is by far the most impressive
In the competition to me!
And he was doing in style on the Sunova board. I rode this board in windy
Conditions, and the windage factor is substantial because of its thickness.
For the life of me I can't understand how he managed the board in the
Cross-wind section.
Post by: burchas on April 22, 2017, 11:51:41 PM
I helped him put the fins on the board cause he couldn't figure out how the
Twins work and the position of the center fin in relation to the twins.
So you were the perfect support technician with access to the boards :-) No test drive just to make sure....This really demonstrate the board's abilities and the fact they chose to go with Larry's 4 fin setup for their production is a writing on the wall for what's to come.
So these are production boards and not prototypes?
No test drive! Would you let a stranger take your board into the surf just before
The biggest race of the year? ;)
These were not production boards, but built according to production specs.
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2017, 01:42:22 AM
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2017, 01:43:45 AM
ukgm - Basically what SB did was pull the Sprint and Race designs together and add triple concaves for increased stability. Sprint with lower rocker and sharp reverse disp entry vs the AS increased rocker and cutting boof. The flat bottom 2015 AS design was completely discarded.
Yep, my point was that if S'board want the sprint to handle more chop in 2018, are they going to tweak it and basically not end up too far away from the Race 2015 was....
Post by: Area 10 on April 23, 2017, 05:01:07 AM
Incredible performance by Larry Cain though, given his age and flat water background. Top 30 in that company in your 50s, in conditions that aren't your natural arena? Mind over matter stuff.
Post by: Luc Benac on April 23, 2017, 05:11:18 AM
Incredible performance by Larry Cain though, given his age and flat water background. Top 30 in that company in your 50s, in conditions that aren't your natural arena? Mind over matter stuff.
Cannot agree more.
Post by: Rideordie on April 23, 2017, 07:47:54 AM
Post by: Eagle on April 23, 2017, 08:47:42 AM
Georges was incredible tho to catch the front train. It was all him. Massive pull that dude. But DW not his specialty. He also had nothing left.
To me the standout was Larry. Mid age guy past his prime killing it upwind and DW. Only 15 min behind. But so many AS and no Ace boards represented. Shame. Connor did what he could -> but DW Tito just squirted away on the first bump and waved bye bye lads. The NSP design looks very versatile. Tito played it very smart for the repeat. Kept plenty in the tank. ;)
Annabel just has too much for the ladies. Five in a row. Awesome. ;)
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2017, 08:59:37 AM
Post by: Area 10 on April 23, 2017, 09:35:32 AM
Post by: Luc Benac on April 23, 2017, 09:39:53 AM
ukgm - wait until you are in your 50s before you say that. Many people don't notice *too* much drop-off up until 40-45 but the following 10 years are absolutely brutal for most people, no matter how low impact the sport is.)
I refuse to be reminded of this everyday :-)
Thanks for yoga
Post by: ukgm on April 23, 2017, 10:00:24 AM
ukgm - wait until you are in your 50s before you say that. Many people don't notice *too* much drop-off up until 40-45 but the following 10 years are absolutely brutal for most people, no matter how low impact the sport is.
I just go by the published age related performance data of swimming, biking or running. I can't see SUP being any different to any of those. Yep, they'll be drop off but the decline is going to vary.
Note: I'm currently nigh on 42.
Post by: Eagle on April 23, 2017, 10:06:30 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Cain
Post by: Area 10 on April 23, 2017, 01:53:43 PM
Come back in ten years. If you are still racing then and finishing close to where you are now then I'll buy you a drink. There's probably a selection artefact in sports performance data for ageing in competitive sports - if you aren't ageing extraordinarily well then you won't be taking part in the sports. So you probably aren't looking at data from a true cross-section of the population.ukgm - wait until you are in your 50s before you say that. Many people don't notice *too* much drop-off up until 40-45 but the following 10 years are absolutely brutal for most people, no matter how low impact the sport is.
I just go by the published age related performance data of swimming, biking or running. I can't see SUP being any different to any of those. Yep, they'll be drop off but the decline is going to vary.
Note: I'm currently nigh on 42.
Post by: Eagle on April 23, 2017, 02:56:11 PM
"These findings provide evidence that the age-related decrease in VO2max of master athletes who continue to engage in regular vigorous endurance exercise training is approximately one-half the rate of decline seen in age-matched sedentary subjects."
http://jap.physiology.org/content/68/5/2195
"We conclude that in both sexes, a large portion of the age-associated decline in VO2max in non-endurance-trained individuals is explicable by the loss of muscle mass, which is observed with advancing age."
http://jap.physiology.org/content/65/3/1147.short
"On the other hand, there is a decline in skeletal muscle oxidative capacity with aging, due in part to mitochondrial dysfunction, which appears to play a particularly important role in extreme old age (senescence) where skeletal muscle VO2 max is observed to decline by approximately 50% even under conditions of similar oxygen delivery as young adult muscle."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18347663
Post by: Eagle on April 23, 2017, 03:13:18 PM
M01-29 Top 5 -> 5:02-5:27
M30-39 Top 5 -> 4:50-5:38
M40-49 Top 5 -> 5:42-6:44
At 40 up to 50 the wheels start coming off. Slowly then quickly once muscle mass declines and VO2 max drops off. Def building muscle and continuing with endurance fitness etc helps a ton to slow decline. For short distances like 12 miles not so bad -> but up that to 32 or more. Good technique helps for sure. ;)
Post by: burchas on April 23, 2017, 03:36:25 PM
Great pics, burchas, thanks very much.
Looks like the RS should be pretty stable for its width. I'm surprised the deck isn't lowered just a little bit more. That's what I was expecting. But maybe if it's got eg. the PPG in mind, then you'd want to minimise the deck lowering. I'd love to try one, it could be a very adaptable shape. Do you know what sizes it will be coming in?
If I heard right, I think they'll have one wider than 26", I think 3 or 4 width option
altogether. So maybe something for ukgm after all.
Post by: JEG on April 23, 2017, 05:46:19 PM
Post by: ukgm on April 24, 2017, 12:01:40 AM
Based on the 2013 M2O endurance race.
M01-29 Top 5 -> 5:02-5:27
M30-39 Top 5 -> 4:50-5:38
M40-49 Top 5 -> 5:42-6:44
At 40 up to 50 the wheels start coming off. Slowly then quickly once muscle mass declines and VO2 max drops off. Def building muscle and continuing with endurance fitness etc helps a ton to slow decline. For short distances like 12 miles not so bad -> but up that to 32 or more. Good technique helps for sure. ;)
Well, here's the thing. I don't believe that anyone disputes the natural decline of age but there are some factors I believe which will help someone 'survive' for longer.
1) Time served in a sport makes a difference. It's been said that regardless of age, if you're new to a sport, you may continue to improve for 5-6 years due to the learning curve. Even if you're 40+, this can mask some of your slide - particularly if technique is a major factor.
2) Whilst Vo2 max declines from 30, aerobic efficiency can continue to improve well beyond this and may offset (temporarily) some overall performance decline.
3) I doubt (unproven) that most SUP athletes are training to maximum capacity. An older athlete may be able to outpace a younger one. Particularly if they have well ingrained technique. For anyone who looks at Larry's facebook page, its obvious that, even in his 50's, he still has the work ethic and training load tolerance of an Olympian. I'm not that convinced that all of the younger people in front of him do.
4) In addition, certain races with certain technical conditions are going to reward the watermen more than the training machines. Anyone familiar with Oscar Chalupski in Ocean Ski racing will be familiar with this. He is older than Larry and still places on podiums on international level downwinders. He knows how to read the water. Sure, you're eventually going to get hammered by someone old enough to be your child when things get glassy but this can be staved off for a while.
For what it's worth, I have power output or training data of most sports I've done for the last 15 years or so. I'm still finding out ways to get faster now at 41. A lot of this is likely due to not being a full time athlete (therefore never being at true maximum of my raw ability). However, I am trying to offset the inevitable so this year has seen a resurgence of vo2 max work and weight training. It's use it or lose it for me now but luckily I've only got one 'elite' sports project left to aim for next year. After that, most of my own targets are age group related anyway.
Post by: ukgm on April 24, 2017, 12:09:48 AM
So you probably aren't looking at data from a true cross-section of the population.ukgm - wait until you are in your 50s before you say that. Many people don't notice *too* much drop-off up until 40-45 but the following 10 years are absolutely brutal for most people, no matter how low impact the sport is.
I just go by the published age related performance data of swimming, biking or running. I can't see SUP being any different to any of those. Yep, they'll be drop off but the decline is going to vary.
Note: I'm currently nigh on 42.
I would agree with you entirely. If I recall correctly, a lot of the data is based on age group world records. However, a lot of the data does not take into account 'generation endurance' i.e. the recent and heavy rise of both competitive sport throughout a persons age and a greater personal understanding of how to train properly for it. I suspect a lot of the data is going to be rewritten soon.
Post by: yugi on April 24, 2017, 01:07:20 AM
Post by: Area 10 on April 24, 2017, 01:51:08 AM
Based on the 2013 M2O endurance race.
M01-29 Top 5 -> 5:02-5:27
M30-39 Top 5 -> 4:50-5:38
M40-49 Top 5 -> 5:42-6:44
At 40 up to 50 the wheels start coming off. Slowly then quickly once muscle mass declines and VO2 max drops off. Def building muscle and continuing with endurance fitness etc helps a ton to slow decline. For short distances like 12 miles not so bad -> but up that to 32 or more. Good technique helps for sure. ;)
Well, here's the thing. I don't believe that anyone disputes the natural decline of age but there are some factors I believe which will help someone 'survive' for longer.
1) Time served in a sport makes a difference. It's been said that regardless of age, if you're new to a sport, you may continue to improve for 5-6 years due to the learning curve. Even if you're 40+, this can mask some of your slide - particularly if technique is a major factor.
2) Whilst Vo2 max declines from 30, aerobic efficiency can continue to improve well beyond this and may offset (temporarily) some overall performance decline.
3) I doubt (unproven) that most SUP athletes are training to maximum capacity. An older athlete may be able to outpace a younger one. Particularly if they have well ingrained technique. For anyone who looks at Larry's facebook page, its obvious that, even in his 50's, he still has the work ethic and training load tolerance of an Olympian. I'm not that convinced that all of the younger people in front of him do.
4) In addition, certain races with certain technical conditions are going to reward the watermen more than the training machines. Anyone familiar with Oscar Chalupski in Ocean Ski racing will be familiar with this. He is older than Larry and still places on podiums on international level downwinders. He knows how to read the water. Sure, you're eventually going to get hammered by someone old enough to be your child when things get glassy but this can be staved off for a while.
For what it's worth, I have power output or training data of most sports I've done for the last 15 years or so. I'm still finding out ways to get faster now at 41. A lot of this is likely due to not being a full time athlete (therefore never being at true maximum of my raw ability). However, I am trying to offset the inevitable so this year has seen a resurgence of vo2 max work and weight training. It's use it or lose it for me now but luckily I've only got one 'elite' sports project left to aim for next year. After that, most of my own targets are age group related anyway.
Mostly the age effect is about injury and recovery, I think. Most active people acquire some injury at some point which will limit them. But no matter how cleverly you train you'll find that as you enter your 50s you just can't maintain the volume of training you once could. Recovery and adaptation to training events takes a little longer each year, just as it takes longer for a cut to heal when you are 50 than when you are 25. There's not much you can do about it. For sure you can offset the decline with clever strategy, experience, knowing your body and increased training diligence and technique. But you are still pushing a turd up a hill with a stick, not rolling down with it as you did in your early 20s.
Very little is known about the science of recovery, as far as I can determine. Mostly no doubt because the world's top sports science practioners are understandably focussed on elite youngsters most. And this current vogue for older people to take up endurance and extreme sports is a very new phenomenon -this is the first generation really where large numbers are doing it, afforded to some extent by the reduction of manual labour/labour-saving devices. Knowing more about recovery might help us all enormously not only as we age, but also in terms of recovery from ailments etc. So you don't hear much about recovery and ageing in sports science textbooks. But that's really what limits you as you get older IMO. You simply can't train as much each week as you used to before overtraining sets in and bad things start happening.
So, start keeping records of eg. heart-rate variability etc after your training events, and watch over the next 10 years the very slow decline in your training volume, and increased need for sleep. I didn't notice anything much until age 45 but the last 10 years have been brutal, and the last a lot 5 worse than the previous 5. Even training monsters like Laird Hamilton and Dave Kalama are starting to have to pick their battles now that they are closing in on 55.
Extreme endurance performance is something else altogether. There are probably different factors at work there than for most "normal" athletic endeavours.
Post by: ukgm on April 24, 2017, 02:55:32 AM
1) From people I've spoken to, the issue of recovery seems to be the defining factor between being an elite athlete and joe normal at any age - particulary in endurance sports.Based on the 2013 M2O endurance race.
M01-29 Top 5 -> 5:02-5:27
M30-39 Top 5 -> 4:50-5:38
M40-49 Top 5 -> 5:42-6:44
At 40 up to 50 the wheels start coming off. Slowly then quickly once muscle mass declines and VO2 max drops off. Def building muscle and continuing with endurance fitness etc helps a ton to slow decline. For short distances like 12 miles not so bad -> but up that to 32 or more. Good technique helps for sure. ;)
Well, here's the thing. I don't believe that anyone disputes the natural decline of age but there are some factors I believe which will help someone 'survive' for longer.
1) Time served in a sport makes a difference. It's been said that regardless of age, if you're new to a sport, you may continue to improve for 5-6 years due to the learning curve. Even if you're 40+, this can mask some of your slide - particularly if technique is a major factor.
2) Whilst Vo2 max declines from 30, aerobic efficiency can continue to improve well beyond this and may offset (temporarily) some overall performance decline.
3) I doubt (unproven) that most SUP athletes are training to maximum capacity. An older athlete may be able to outpace a younger one. Particularly if they have well ingrained technique. For anyone who looks at Larry's facebook page, its obvious that, even in his 50's, he still has the work ethic and training load tolerance of an Olympian. I'm not that convinced that all of the younger people in front of him do.
4) In addition, certain races with certain technical conditions are going to reward the watermen more than the training machines. Anyone familiar with Oscar Chalupski in Ocean Ski racing will be familiar with this. He is older than Larry and still places on podiums on international level downwinders. He knows how to read the water. Sure, you're eventually going to get hammered by someone old enough to be your child when things get glassy but this can be staved off for a while.
For what it's worth, I have power output or training data of most sports I've done for the last 15 years or so. I'm still finding out ways to get faster now at 41. A lot of this is likely due to not being a full time athlete (therefore never being at true maximum of my raw ability). However, I am trying to offset the inevitable so this year has seen a resurgence of vo2 max work and weight training. It's use it or lose it for me now but luckily I've only got one 'elite' sports project left to aim for next year. After that, most of my own targets are age group related anyway.
1) Mostly the age effect is about injury and recovery, I think.
2) And this current vogue for older people to take up endurance and extreme sports is a very new phenomenon -this is the first generation really where large numbers are doing it.
3) So, start keeping records of eg. heart-rate variability etc after your training events, and watch over the next 10 years the very slow decline in your training volume, and increased need for sleep. I didn't notice anything much until age 45 but the last 10 years have been brutal, and the last a lot 5 worse than the previous 5. Even training monsters like Laird Hamilton and Dave Kalama are starting to have to pick their battles now that they are closing in on 55.
2) Yep, as I mentioned above. i think our pre conceptions are going to be re-written. Mainly as the slack between elite endurance athletes often retiring completely around 35-38 is going to be taken up by those that started later and have more knowledge than previous generations.
3) As far as training goes, I abandoned anything to do with heart rate monitors around 5 years ago.
You are, of course right but then you don't half know how to depress a guy on a Monday morning. Can't we get back to discussing about what new 2018 board is going to hide my decline for a year or two ?!!!
Post by: yugi on April 24, 2017, 03:19:17 AM
You can do it if you want to.
You're right about injury. I'm pretty much done with running thanks to a trashed ankle messing up a wakeboard flip landing. The screws in there bother me. Read Born to Run. It's a fun book even if you aren't a runner. It's all about old farts never slowing down.
I'm not slowing down. I'm still getting better and that's thanks to SUP I have to say.
I picked SUP up, of course, for no wind days on the water but also to regain shoulder strength after a shattered shoulder. The cross training has definitely helped both my biking and skiing fitness levels. SUP I'm still getting faster.
So far so good.
Post by: yugi on April 24, 2017, 03:36:45 AM
...
3) As far as training goes, I abandoned anything to do with heart rate monitors around 5 years ago.
...
That's interesting. Esp coming from you.
I abandoned heart rate monitors over 25 years ago.
I'd read a running book in the early 70's that talked about training at a "conversation pace". When I was racing Mtn bikes in the 80's I got a heart rate monitor and did a full test with an elite sports doctor friend to determine my ideal heart rate training zones. I used the heart rate monitor for a year or so only. It was cool to calibrate myself to understand what the "zone" feels like. Then dropped it. Turns out my ideal heart rate training pace was exactly "conversation pace".
Paddling, Mtn bike and ski skinning uphill I'll be the guy talking the whole way. It's a habit.
Post by: ukgm on April 24, 2017, 03:59:52 AM
...
3) As far as training goes, I abandoned anything to do with heart rate monitors around 5 years ago.
...
That's interesting. Esp coming from you.
I abandoned heart rate monitors over 25 years ago.
I'd read a running book in the early 70's that talked about training at a "conversation pace". When I was racing Mtn bikes in the 80's I got a heart rate monitor and did a full test with an elite sports doctor friend to determine my ideal heart rate training zones. I used the heart rate monitor for a year or so only. It was cool to calibrate myself to understand what the "zone" feels like. Then dropped it. Turns out my ideal heart rate training pace was exactly "conversation pace".
Paddling, Mtn bike and ski skinning uphill I'll be the guy talking the whole way. It's a habit.
It would help if i provided some backstory:
- As a far as my first sport goes (cycle time trials) HR got replaced by power meter data. I found HR didn't offer any actionable intelligence (and could actually be misleading). I ditched its use.
- As far as SUP goes, I found the day to day variation and (particularly) a developing paddle stroke (as I'm on SUP year 3) made my HR data all but useless to monitor. I use perceived exertion instead. I do still wear a HR band in races from time to time (purely out of interest to see the maximums).
- I have used it occasionally to doublecheck for signs of overtraining. I know that my resting HR is typically around 47-49 in the morning. If it goes north of 55, I'm generally in trouble.
Post by: warmuth on April 24, 2017, 05:45:18 AM
Post by: ukgm on April 24, 2017, 06:07:11 AM
If you're over 50 and not fit it'll be a real drag for sure to try get in shape but if you've always been athletic it's relatively easy to maintain. And I'm a desk jockey by day.
You can do it if you want to.
You're right about injury. I'm pretty much done with running thanks to a trashed ankle messing up a wakeboard flip landing. The screws in there bother me. Read Born to Run. It's a fun book even if you aren't a runner. It's all about old farts never slowing down.
I'm not slowing down. I'm still getting better and that's thanks to SUP I have to say.
I picked SUP up, of course, for no wind days on the water but also to regain shoulder strength after a shattered shoulder. The cross training has definitely helped both my biking and skiing fitness levels. SUP I'm still getting faster.
So far so good.
Well its never over until it's over - Ex olympic heavyweight rower James Cracknell broke his marathon PB last weekend at aged 44 (and did a 2:43). 10 years ago he was 15 minutes slower).
Post by: Eagle on April 24, 2017, 10:29:15 AM
Larry would be a good benchmark for many wannabe racing peeps. Mid age guy you should be able to beat if you are anywhere serious. Bart deS is an early 40ish guy that rules in crazy endurance races. Another guy to pace results against. The basic trick is to get on an efficient narrow nose 23 wide board if you want first or second. The wide Maliko 26 is simply just too sluggish. ;)
"With 500 racers one of the bigger events of the year. The Starboard Sprint 14'x23" proofed the right choice for Larry Cain (1st place) and I."
http://www.supracer.com/2016-chattajack-stand-up-paddleboard-race-results/
Post by: Area 10 on April 24, 2017, 11:00:09 AM
ukgm and others were talking about the rekatively small growth in overall race participants now. One of the factors I think will be exactly what Jim Terrell predicted several years ago.
http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/
The old hands here on the 'zone will remember this debate well at the time, but I guess there might be one or two new people who haven't read it.
If we want to keep numbers up I would think that events need to keep that "fun run" vibe. To be a nice paddle in itself, and more emphasis on the social aspect than the competitive one. A lot of paddlers - probably 95% of them - find race training boring, so once you've done one (and no doubt got your ass kicked), then it becomes ever harder to motivate yourself to do another, unless the event offers a nice/unusual/social paddle in of itself independently of racing.
But maybe the uber-competitive types are better off just doing their thing, and not worrying about expanding their numbers or pandering to the occasional racer. It's not clear to me why we need race numbers to expand anyway. Most of us are happy with SUP being a niche sport. How do I gain if there were e.g. SUP lakes all around me teeming with SUPers, and every school had SUP as part of the curriculum? Some people would no doubt make money, but not me or anyone I paddle with. It would t offer me anything I don't already have, and in fact it might just mean irksome regulations and interfering regulatory bodies populated with tinpot dictators telling us the direction that SUP must go. The appeal of SUP is partly things like it's simplicity, ease of learning, adaptability etc, but for some of us it is also the fact that there's no expectation that you'll be a card-carrying member of some organisation that regulates your equipment etc. The amateurishness and spontaneity of SUP right now, about 10 years into the sport proper, is appealing.
Post by: Eagle on April 24, 2017, 11:25:06 AM
Def extremely hard to be winning fast on a wide 26 board when others are beating you on narrow sleek 21-24 boards. ;)
Post by: Eagle on April 24, 2017, 12:00:23 PM
Here is a perfect example where GM goes quick on a Sprint 23. If swapped for a Sprint 21.5 with quads -> that would probs be very quick. ;)Paddler: recreational paddler, male, 41y, 85kg (187lbs) , with lower center of gravity- 174cm (5'8'') , but with large heart
Last year board was 2016 SB All Star 14x23 (AS- bellow mentioning)
Equimpment: 2017 SB Sprint 14x23, original stock fin (Natural Winner Fin), 2016 SB bolt M (oval shaft), Garmin XT310 (mouted on board) with hearth belt.
First impression: wow, this glides on flat. It really cuts water like a hot knife trough butter with no/little noise comparing to AS. Also cuts small waves upwind really good.
Stability: on flat, the Sprint is more stable than AS – I would say only due to lower standing position and 3cm wider tail. Did not try pivot turning as I haven't learn it yet and the water is to cold to learn at this time of the season.
Traction: with original stock fin the board tracks pretty well, but due to my poor ability still needs some work to paddle in strait line.
Test: 60min. paddling trial in lake two 4,5km circles (please see my garmin profile) to paddle from 130-165 hearth rate/min. Maintaining speed over 9,0 km/h (5,6mi/h) is pretty easy on the board like this (on flat), and over 9,6 km/h (6,0 mi/h) should now become my standard race pace on flat.
I'm fortunate enough to paddling in the lake 10min driving away, almost whole year (except 3 weeks in January due to frozen lake). My average paddle day is 8-12km with no training program, 5times a week which add up to more than 1.500km/year. I'm also fortunate enough to be on Starboard national team which ables me to purchase board at very fair price!
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1653545444
Cheers and paddle on,
M
Interestingly, some of these turned up to the UK's first big race last week. I counted 2-3 of them (with another 2-3 23 inch versions). Popular at the front end but a real handful in a race with 50 other guys was my impression.
Post by: ukgm on April 24, 2017, 12:24:34 PM
No doubt width and stability are very personal issues. Have stated that before a few times now. But a Sprint 23 is def faster than a Dom 27.5 if you can balance well on both. As noted if you cannot -> simply go wider until you are comfortable. Point was the winner used a 23 wide board. Low drag and very efficient board and fast.
Def extremely hard to be winning fast on a wide 26 board when others are beating you on narrow sleek 21-24 boards. ;)
Interestingly, one of my local training partners moved from a 2016 Mistral Equinox (24.75 width) to a 2016 JP Flatwater Race (24 width). We went from me being able to be ~30 secs faster than him over 40 mins to suddenly being 2 minutes down. He weighs similar to me but a fair bit shorter. Just goes to show that volume isn't everything.....
Post by: Area 10 on April 24, 2017, 12:45:42 PM
No doubt width and stability are very personal issues. Have stated that before a few times now. But a Sprint 23 is def faster than a Dom 27.5 if you can balance well on both. As noted if you cannot -> simply go wider until you are comfortable. Point was the winner used a 23 wide board. Low drag and very efficient board and fast.The fact that they are on narrow boards tells you that they are superior athletes - it is not the board that is making them fast, they are on those boards *because* they are fast. They'd still kick your ass even on a 30" wide board, but for them it's easier to paddle a 21" wide one than a 30" wide one, so why wouldn't they?
Def extremely hard to be winning fast on a wide 26 board when others are beating you on narrow sleek 21-24 boards. ;)
Look, Eagle, I'm very glad that you like your 23" wide board. I have a 14x23" too (also boards at widths of 24.5", 25", 26", 26.75", 27"(x2), 28.2", 29.75", 30" (x2) and 32". But the way you are seemingly turning every conversation round to the merits of a 23" wide board ignores the fact that for many people they are just NOT fast for them, and never will be. Just as a 20" wide board probably wouldn't be for you.
It sounds like you are bragging or pimping. Well, it's no big deal paddling a 23" wide board. I can do it, and I'm a wobbly old man. So please, enough with the "my board is narrower than yours" one-upmanship, and the All Star adverts, eh?
Post by: warmuth on April 24, 2017, 02:13:42 PM
Post by: Eagle on April 24, 2017, 03:42:35 PM
For me all I can say is that when docile in the ocean my 23 is faster than my 27.5 -> and when rough my Bullet is faster than my 23. I clearly understand that you have stated a few times that your 26 is faster than your 23. Not sure what other points there are to make.
If I were to choose a race board -> I would go for the AS24.5 or Eradicator 25 at the moment. Both are quite a bit more stable and easier to handle than my 23 in slop and chop over 5 miles.
Post by: Eagle on April 24, 2017, 04:16:04 PM
Seems no one has stated that narrower boards make someone faster. Not sure where you got that idea from.
But probs more valid is that those paddlers simply have good enough balance without losing much power. Def narrower boards can be much slower sometimes. Most everyone understands this -> so not sure what there is to dispute.
Post by: Area 10 on April 24, 2017, 04:30:03 PM
90% or more of male entrants at any given amateur race cannot paddle a 23" board faster than one wider in a typical race around here. As it is I've done 4 races this year so far and my 24"whiplash has been benched for two of them due to conditions. I'll be lucky to use it in half of the races this year. Forget the pros, theres no point in making comparisons.Yep. That's it.
Post by: Luc Benac on April 24, 2017, 09:54:21 PM
As it is I've done 4 races this year so far and my 24"whiplash has been benched for two of them due to conditions. I'll be lucky to use it in half of the races this year. Forget the pros, theres no point in making comparisons.
Every-time I have been lured to go narrower (24"), I have found that while I could perfectly paddle the board without falling at all, I also found that I did not really fully enjoyed the experience 70% of the time. A top paddler in Canada, that actually bought my BF 24" is having a blast 99% of the time with it and takes it everywhere. It is not the board it is me.
Now I know that I enjoy a board that is over 25"and bellow 27" wide. Too narrow and legs get tired, too wide and stroke is not as nice.
This might change if I become miraculously a better paddler, but for the time being this is the rules I stick with.
Post by: ukgm on April 25, 2017, 12:05:15 AM
As it is I've done 4 races this year so far and my 24"whiplash has been benched for two of them due to conditions. I'll be lucky to use it in half of the races this year. Forget the pros, theres no point in making comparisons.
Every-time I have been lured to go narrower (24"), I have found that while I could perfectly paddle the board without falling at all, I also found that I did not really fully enjoyed the experience 70% of the time. A top paddler in Canada, that actually bought my BF 24" is having a blast 99% of the time with it and takes it everywhere. It is not the board it is me.
Now I know that I enjoy a board that is over 25"and bellow 27" wide. Too narrow and legs get tired, too wide and stroke is not as nice.
This might change if I become miraculously a better paddler, but for the time being this is the rules I stick with.
Mind you, race boards aren't supposed to be a pleasure. They are supposed to be the knife edge between full power application and maximum cruising speed. Both of those take some effort and some concentration. If I were not racing, I'd be moving around on a 26 and be perfectly happy.
I do believe there is also a coercive effect in the sport whereby some paddlers are buying boards that are slightly too much for them as they think that's the norm at the sharp end and are faster. I've seen a couple of friends realise this, add an inch or two back on and go much better for it. People should realise that the majority of the typical elites are now a typical weight and height that many of us are not. Guys like Costerlitz and Booth are morphological or physical outliers to the others.
Post by: Area 10 on April 25, 2017, 12:32:19 AM
An extra inch or so in width isn't going to make much difference to the hydrodynamics of the board, in real-world race conditions. But it can make all the difference to how comfortable you feel on the board, especially on longer paddles. So I think that you have to fit the dimensions of your board to not only to your weight, but also to your height and how broad you are (and perhaps even how big your feet are). Your board needs to fit you perfectly like a glove, and in the same way that a glove that is an inch too big in any dimension will be next to useless, so is a board that doesn't fit you.
IMO you will be fast when your board "fits you". So it's hopeless saying that "X board is faster than Y board". It's like saying that a smaller glove is warmer than a bigger one. Warmer for who? Faster for who?
One day in the future there will be charts for dimension of boards that are like the size charts you have for wetsuits now, which take into account weight, height, and chest size. (See also bicycles.) We aren't at that level of understanding yet with SUPs, but eventually it will come. The Sunova "made to order" type approach is appealing in that respect. No doubt this is part of the reason why I now find going custom such an appealing idea. Once you find out what "fits" you (and it's taken me 30+ distance SUPs to do that), it's hard to accept a board that doesn't.
Post by: yugi on April 25, 2017, 01:32:16 AM
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=27309.15
depends on paddler's size and weight, skill leveland conditions...
for average conditions, using boat stability theory, I computer this couple years ago.. depth of board in water is optional
more or less , the taller you are or the heaviest, wider you need.
if you are a beginner, take wider,
if backwash or cross bumps(current, etc) are likely to be encountered, take wider.
this table is just for reference,shaper rails, wide noses may improve stability, recessed decks too ,... this is for a 12,6 pin nosed average transom,for a 14', reduce 1/2 inch, for a 17,another 1/2 inch...
Post by: ukgm on April 25, 2017, 01:55:05 AM
from
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=27309.15depends on paddler's size and weight, skill leveland conditions...
for average conditions, using boat stability theory, I computer this couple years ago.. depth of board in water is optional
more or less , the taller you are or the heaviest, wider you need.
if you are a beginner, take wider,
if backwash or cross bumps(current, etc) are likely to be encountered, take wider.
this table is just for reference,shaper rails, wide noses may improve stability, recessed decks too ,... this is for a 12,6 pin nosed average transom,for a 14', reduce 1/2 inch, for a 17,another 1/2 inch...
I know its based on standard principles but that chart seems to overestimate the current situation for pro's widths let alone us.
Post by: yugi on April 25, 2017, 03:01:45 AM
"this is for a 12,6 pin nosed average transom,for a 14', reduce 1/2 inch, for a 17,another 1/2 inch..."?
Since that's for a pin nose and transom take off another 1/2 inch for the more parallel stable shapes we have now. Maybe even 1 inch based on my experience with these really stable shapes.
Obviously adjust for how it fits you. What's interesting is once you've adjusted for the board/conditions/skill you know then you have the answer for people other heights and weights.
Which I thought answered your question
Post by: Bean on April 25, 2017, 03:39:31 AM
Post by: Area 10 on April 25, 2017, 03:45:01 AM
This was all predicted on the Zone several years ago: once you fix board lengths through regulations rather than let length naturally evolve, and new build technologies do not occur (as they haven't), then mostly people will fixate on width, because that's the most freely varying parameter. And since "narrower is faster" is an easier message to sell than "narrow tails and narrow noses can be faster, but it depends if you can get your paddle vertical, and how good you are at buoy turns..blah blah.." this is where we are at the moment, with everyone obsessing over volume (similarly easy to understand, and is imported from windsurfing) and width at the middle, despite these two measurements being profoundly unhelpful in telling to how fast or comfortable you will be on a board.
Post by: Pierre on April 25, 2017, 04:46:22 AM
I drawn this chart for beginner-average level paddlers around 5 years ago...that's a reference only.
Since that time y used boards mathematically more stable, but with rounded bottom, a,dsurfski-like looking shapes, if one can stand on it and control rolling effect performance is awesome, oncluding in DWding conditions, but keeping balance is a huge challenge,
Post by: Pierre on April 25, 2017, 05:09:51 AM
but increase of width vs height and/orweight remains the same...
Post by: ukgm on April 25, 2017, 05:53:53 AM
Yeah, I think that for this reason, and as Luc highlights, Naish have it right going for 14x24, 14x26 and 14x28 (Maliko only, I think) rather than 14x23, 14x25 (or 24.5) and 14x27 like Starboard or Jimmy Lewis.
With the 14ft increasingly likely as the defacto stock length generally, I for one am interested to see where Starboard goes for 2018. A few other big brands do seem to be hanging around the 24 and 26 points (Naish, Fanatic) but Starboard change their boards every year and their widths are very unusual (24.5 in '17 or 26.5 in 2014 for example). Starboard 2017 ended up with a gap in their Allstar range between the 24.5 and the 27. The 24.5 seems to be less stable than the 2016 25 and the 27 is really only for downwinding. That's just too big a gap in my view and needs plugging.
Post by: Area 10 on April 25, 2017, 06:36:59 AM
Neither Naish nor Starboard have a dedicated downwinding board in their range, unfortunately. But they are not alone, and it keeps sales for JL, SIC, Bark etc up.
Post by: warmuth on April 25, 2017, 07:34:58 AM
Yeah, I think that for this reason, and as Luc highlights, Naish have it right going for 14x24, 14x26 and 14x28 (Maliko only, I think) rather than 14x23, 14x25 (or 24.5) and 14x27 like Starboard or Jimmy Lewis. But I guess it's good that the brands are slightly different because 2" is quite a big difference, and you can easily end up with a "between sizes" need. I'm with Luc, 26" wide feels very natural to me, my feet don't often hang off the rails and I virtually never hit the rails. Whereas at 25" or below I'm finding myself often with my toes kinda on the edge of the rail (or jammed up against the sidewall in my Ace), and at 23" wide I'm having to be very conscious about where my feet are, and changing the position of my feet as I paddle (eg. going from parallel to staggered stance) is tricky. But then I'm quite a broad build. People with narrower shoulders seem to stand with their feet closer together, so can go narrower without feeling restricted.
An extra inch or so in width isn't going to make much difference to the hydrodynamics of the board, in real-world race conditions. But it can make all the difference to how comfortable you feel on the board, especially on longer paddles. So I think that you have to fit the dimensions of your board to not only to your weight, but also to your height and how broad you are (and perhaps even how big your feet are). Your board needs to fit you perfectly like a glove, and in the same way that a glove that is an inch too big in any dimension will be next to useless, so is a board that doesn't fit you.
IMO you will be fast when your board "fits you". So it's hopeless saying that "X board is faster than Y board". It's like saying that a smaller glove is warmer than a bigger one. Warmer for who? Faster for who?
One day in the future there will be charts for dimension of boards that are like the size charts you have for wetsuits now, which take into account weight, height, and chest size. (See also bicycles.) We aren't at that level of understanding yet with SUPs, but eventually it will come. The Sunova "made to order" type approach is appealing in that respect. No doubt this is part of the reason why I now find going custom such an appealing idea. Once you find out what "fits" you (and it's taken me 30+ distance SUPs to do that), it's hard to accept a board that doesn't.
26" sidewinder would be nice. I'd like to try the 27. The 25 for me is riding a fairly fine line between flat and rough water. There are better flat water boards and better rough water ones. It does work a charm in mild chop though. I don't think I'd ever choose a 23" all water. That'll be constrained to flat water and at that point I may as well be on a displacement board.
Post by: ukgm on April 25, 2017, 07:42:49 AM
I don't think the All Star 14x27 is for downwinding, really. There are far better 14x27 specialised boards for downwinding. It is instead the all-round distance board in their range for the occasional racer or big guy racer.
Neither Naish nor Starboard have a dedicated downwinding board in their range, unfortunately. But they are not alone, and it keeps sales for JL, SIC, Bark etc up.
Well, a 2.5 inch gap is pretty big don't you think ? 24.5 is still exclusive (and at the limits of many racers) but a 27 is going to be a dog in anything other severe chop.
Post by: Area 10 on April 25, 2017, 08:06:03 AM
I don't think the All Star 14x27 is for downwinding, really. There are far better 14x27 specialised boards for downwinding. It is instead the all-round distance board in their range for the occasional racer or big guy racer.
Neither Naish nor Starboard have a dedicated downwinding board in their range, unfortunately. But they are not alone, and it keeps sales for JL, SIC, Bark etc up.
Well, a 2.5 inch gap is pretty big don't you think ? 24.5 is still exclusive (and at the limits of many racers) but a 27 is going to be a dog in anything other severe chop.
Is it REALLY 24.5"? Those of us here who have been keenly watching Starboard over the last 10 years have seen that there is sometimes only a passing resemblance between the actual width of the board and the advertised one. The 2016 25 might always have been a 24.5, rounded up, perhaps? Starboard may have changed the advertised width as a marketing tool to emphasis the difference year-on-year. They still seem to be pretty much sticking roughly with the 23, 25, 27 that they have for a while - although there was a 14x28 AS I think that was quite a different design and was indeed really aimed at DWing. PT Woody had one, I think, maybe? Bulbous nose, more rocker, very stable.
Although with technology these days as it is, there really isn't any need for a board not to be an advertised width (within pretty tight tolerances), I'd still use the advertised dimensions as only a guide, and boards may differ from each other as well because of manufacturing error variance. Some are way off what they say: The SIC Bullet 14ft v1 is actually only 13ft 10" long. I has a custom board bag made for it and was puzzled when I couldn't get my SIC Bullet V2 in it...so measured it and hey presto, the 14ft v1 isn't actually 14ft long at all! A few years back when the Ace GT came out, it was advertised at a different width than it actually turned out to be - and quite different from the marked dimensions actually on the board itself.
So in this context I wouldn't start making anything much of half an inch. Get yourself a pair of calipers and go have some fun measuring your boards to see what dimensions they *really* are :)
Post by: ukgm on April 25, 2017, 08:13:31 AM
I don't think the All Star 14x27 is for downwinding, really. There are far better 14x27 specialised boards for downwinding. It is instead the all-round distance board in their range for the occasional racer or big guy racer.
Neither Naish nor Starboard have a dedicated downwinding board in their range, unfortunately. But they are not alone, and it keeps sales for JL, SIC, Bark etc up.
Well, a 2.5 inch gap is pretty big don't you think ? 24.5 is still exclusive (and at the limits of many racers) but a 27 is going to be a dog in anything other severe chop.
Is it REALLY 24.5"? Those of us here who have been keenly watching Starboard over the last 10 years have seen that there is sometimes only a passing resemblance between the actual width of the board and the advertised one. The 2016 25 might always have been a 24.5, rounded up, perhaps? Starboard may have changed the advertised width as a marketing tool to emphasis the difference year-on-year. They still seem to be pretty much sticking roughly with the 23, 25, 27 that they have for a while - although there was a 14x28 AS I think that was quite a different design and was indeed really aimed at DWing. PT Woody had one, I think, maybe? Bulbous nose, more rocker, very stable.
Although with technology these days as it is, there really isn't any need for a board not to be an advertised width (within pretty tight tolerances), I'd still use the advertised dimensions as only a guide, and boards may differ from each other as well because of manufacturing error variance. Some are way off what they say: The SIC Bullet 14ft v1 is actually only 13ft 10" long. I has a custom board bag made for it and was puzzled when I couldn't get my SIC Bullet V2 in it...so measured it and hey presto, the 14ft v1 isn't actually 14ft long at all! A few years back when the Ace GT came out, it was advertised at a different width than it actually turned out to be - and quite different from the marked dimensions actually on the board itself.
So in this context I wouldn't start making anything much of half an inch. Get yourself a pair of calipers and go have some fun measuring your boards to see what dimensions they *really* are :)
Yep, I had an 2015 AS in a 28 width. I really liked that board. I wouldn't dare race it now though. Starboard did say they'd intentionally dropped the width this year due to stability of it being a non issue (not that anyone I know who has paddled it agreed with) but that may well be a marketing ploy as you say.
Post by: Luc Benac on April 25, 2017, 08:15:04 AM
A few years back when the Ace GT came out, it was advertised at a different width than it actually turned out to be - and quite different from the marked dimensions actually on the board itself.
I can attest that I have an Ace-GT marked 28" on the board and that actually measure about 27" at the widest point. I think that the very same board has showed both in literature and as marked on the board as 28", 27.5" and 27". I cannot check this of course but I would doubt that they changed the design on this "niche" board by 0.5" just for the sake of it.
Post by: SUPflorida on April 25, 2017, 09:42:36 AM
It's also great for determining the centerline anywhere on the board (as long as you have them 90 degrees to the centerline).
Post by: Luc Benac on April 25, 2017, 09:59:43 AM
How are you measuring the width? My favorite method is to use two aluminum framing squares. Both with the long leg on the deck (or bottom is sometimes easier), lap them and keep both together so it a perfect right angle over the rail. Add the 22-1/2"'on the one with what ever is left on the other and you will get the true width no matter what the tuck or rail shape.
It's also great for determining the centerline anywhere on the board (as long as you have them 90 degrees to the centerline).
Something similar. I put the board on the ground. Put two squares on the outside and a measuring tape to select the widest point, so in effect I measure between the hopefully vertical portion of the squares at their tops and at their base. It is by no way exact but gives a sense of a plus or minus inch.
Post by: PonoBill on April 25, 2017, 11:58:43 AM
Post by: ukgm on April 26, 2017, 12:24:19 AM
Post by: Area 10 on April 26, 2017, 04:25:55 AM
The Starboard race board that really matters is the 14x25(ish) AS and probably the 14x27 All Star in the cheaper construction too. The market for the 14x23" Sprint will be small, and I doubt a UK distributor would even bother importing a 21.5" wide board.
Is there going to be ANY regular contributor to this forum who is going to be racing a 21.5" wide Sprint? This just shows the growing gap between the racing community and mainstream paddling.
There's a problem here. If I turn up to a tennis tournament, you won't know how good I am by looking at my racquet. If I enter a swimming or running comp, my gear will not sing the level of my competence. But if you go to a SUP comp these days you might as well award the medals on the basis of how narrow the person's board is, and the average Joe or Joanna turning up with their 28" or 30" wide board is going to feel like a dumbo before they even hit the water. This puts a big psychological barrier up to participation. I think this is what Jim Terrell was getting at when he argued for standard board dimensions. I'm actually predispositionally disinclined towards such regulations. But maybe it would be inevitable if we are going for the Olympics, or if we want to keep participation in races high.
But I'm beginning to feel that maybe those who race don't. Hard board sales in some markets are already so small as to be almost irrelevant. Is SUP starting to establish a club structure like surf lifesaving, surfing etc that could form a backbone for local racing scenes? That would help. But if we are to be governed by the canoe or surf fraternity rather than develop our own international body, then it seems to me that we will always be just a minor adjunct to other sports, and so we will develop at a rate and in ways that are determined substantially by them.
Post by: ukgm on April 26, 2017, 04:51:24 AM
I wonder how many 21.5" wide sprints were sold worldwide? A tiny number, I should think.
The Starboard race board that really matters is the 14x25(ish) AS and probably the 14x27 All Star in the cheaper construction too. The market for the 14x23" Sprint will be small, and I doubt a UK distributor would even bother importing a 21.5" wide board.
Is there going to be ANY regular contributor to this forum who is going to be racing a 21.5" wide Sprint? This just shows the growing gap between the racing community and mainstream paddling.
There's a problem here. If I turn up to a tennis tournament, you won't know how good I am by looking at my racquet. If I enter a swimming or running comp, my gear will not sing the level of my competence. But if you go to a SUP comp these days you might as well award the medals on the basis of how narrow the person's board is, and the average Joe or Joanna turning up with their 28" or 30" wide board is going to feel like a dumbo before they even hit the water. This puts a big psychological barrier up to participation. I think this is what Jim Terrell was getting at when he argued for standard board dimensions. I'm actually predispositionally disinclined towards such regulations. But maybe it would be inevitable if we are going for the Olympics, or if we want to keep participation in races high.
Well, look at it this way, I don't know about your 'average consumer' but two of the Starboard UK team ladies were on the 21.5 at the Head of the Dart event (probably the biggest race we have in the UK) the other week. I know that two of the men were on the 23 that day. All in all, I know of 3-4 in the UK so far but none of the non team guys have bought one. Mind you, I think this is part of a bigger problem of the 'new market' now being completely disconnected from the secondhand market by too large a gap. The depreciation is savage in the first year and many people buying new boards seem to hold out for a good deal instead. I do know though that the Naish 'domestic racer' discount racer programme went down extremely well here and Naish have sold a lot 24 or 26 14ft Maliko's here as a result.
As for Jim's fears, I mostly agreed with him. I wrote a couple of follow up articles here on SUPracer about it.
http://www.supracer.com/the-board-class-debate-again/
and more specifically to some of the concerns you've raised here:
http://www.supracer.com/the-board-class-debate-again-again/
Post by: ukgm on April 26, 2017, 05:14:34 AM
"With 500 racers one of the bigger events of the year. The Starboard Sprint 14'x23" proofed the right choice for Larry Cain (1st place) and I."
Here's a compromise for you that I discovered. The RRD Razzle dazzle in a 14ft length, 25 width and 280 liters of volume. I've never seen one in the flesh though (only the 12'6 version).
http://www.robertoriccidesigns.com/equipment/shop/razzle-dazzle-14-v1/
Post by: yugi on April 26, 2017, 05:35:28 AM
It's a pretty high volume board. It has high sidewalls.
Post by: ukgm on April 26, 2017, 06:51:44 AM
^ A friend uses the 14' x24 for everything, including choppy days and downwinds. He likes it. He's really good though.
It's a pretty high volume board. It has high sidewalls.
I looks like a 2014 starboard sprint clone. Is it stable though ?
Post by: yugi on April 26, 2017, 07:26:26 AM
but not as stable as a Naish Maliko x24 or Focus Bluefin x24
Post by: Eagle on April 26, 2017, 09:57:22 AM
Post by: Area 10 on April 26, 2017, 10:01:13 AM
Post by: Eagle on April 26, 2017, 11:36:42 AM
• VORTEX 14’ x 26" (426.7cm x 66cm)
Optimum for paddlers up to and over 209lbs (95kg) with added stability
https://shop.mistral.com/collections/2016-sup-hardboards/products/vortex-14
https://shop.mistral.com/collections/2016-sup-hardboards/products/equinox-14
Post by: ukgm on April 26, 2017, 12:49:09 PM
Mistral seems to have nice dropped standing areas with Steeve Rete Ryan etc doing very well. ukgm - the Vortex Equinox looks a solid one two punch that might be an option.
• VORTEX 14’ x 26" (426.7cm x 66cm)
Optimum for paddlers up to and over 209lbs (95kg) with added stability
https://shop.mistral.com/collections/2016-sup-hardboards/products/vortex-14
https://shop.mistral.com/collections/2016-sup-hardboards/products/equinox-14
Yep, I've spoken to Steve West about that one in the past. They will be doing an XL version too at some point (like the narrower 23 inch version). The Equinox I tried and its identical to an Ace really (as that was what the prototype was heavily based on).
Post by: Luc Benac on April 26, 2017, 01:11:00 PM
I think that it is a nice simple line of boards.
Regretfully, Mistral confirmed that they did not have a distributor in North America but you could beat Brexit and get these while you can :-)
Post by: Area 10 on April 26, 2017, 02:56:47 PM
Post by: Eagle on April 26, 2017, 04:31:23 PM
"How and where to add volume was an interesting challenge and it was concluded that the side walls should be increased in height by a further 3cm compared to the regular Vortex."
http://www.mistral.com/blog/2016/10/new-2017-vortex-xl
Post by: GlideMarko on May 04, 2017, 04:53:37 AM
Post by: ukgm on May 04, 2017, 05:40:38 AM
Check the tail on Connor's AS - from Japan. 2018 AS maybe?
That virtually looks like an uncut blank that's so thick and squarely cut !
Post by: burchas on May 04, 2017, 07:09:28 AM
Haven't seen or heard much about that one.
Post by: GlideMarko on May 11, 2017, 11:03:52 AM
Post by: SUPflorida on May 11, 2017, 11:11:30 AM
Post by: Area 10 on May 11, 2017, 11:14:13 AM
Post by: SUPflorida on May 11, 2017, 11:18:22 AM
Post by: SUPflorida on May 11, 2017, 11:21:11 AM
It almost looks like the layed up a flat panel off the board and glued it up where they removed the original rail, the feathered it in...
Post by: TallDude on May 11, 2017, 12:10:08 PM
It also looks like a knife bottom edge...should promote a super clean release if you can get it going fast enough.
Just the opposite. A knife edge promotes stability but can cause a lot of friction depending on the board outline. If the tail transitioned to a pin tail, then you'll have a lot of disturbance on the release. The board outline (rail line) on the SB's are pretty straight, so there would be less disturbance on the release. That's the trade off with going narrow, you have to keep the rail line straight, the bottom rail sharp (mid thru tail) and boxy (volume out at the edge). By shaving the rails to a sharp edge, they narrow the boards slightly at the tail, but they gain a little stability.
You just don't want to turn the tail inward, or you will introduce drag. It's a fine line.
Post by: ukgm on May 11, 2017, 12:36:59 PM
Post by: BrentP on May 11, 2017, 01:35:37 PM
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t201/THEbrownblurr/15370079_1432364293459124_1309707557325699508_o.jpg)
Post by: yugi on May 11, 2017, 02:01:19 PM
It also looks like a knife bottom edge...should promote a super clean release if you can get it going fast enough.
Just the opposite. A knife edge promotes stability but can cause a lot of friction depending on the board outline. If the tail transitioned to a pin tail, then you'll have a lot of disturbance on the release. The board outline (rail line) on the SB's are pretty straight, so there would be less disturbance on the release. That's the trade off with going narrow, you have to keep the rail line straight, the bottom rail sharp (mid thru tail) and boxy (volume out at the edge). By shaving the rails to a sharp edge, they narrow the boards slightly at the tail, but they gain a little stability.
You just don't want to turn the tail inward, or you will introduce drag. It's a fine line.
yep, things to do with tails are often a fine line
Post by: supthecreek on May 11, 2017, 05:25:31 PM
http://www.supracer.com/rankings/brands/
Not bad for a low budget newcomer, with only 3 paddlers racing them :)
Post by: Luc Benac on May 11, 2017, 05:32:31 PM
Post by: Board Stiff on May 11, 2017, 07:24:06 PM
Sunova holds 3rd spot in world ranking on latest "SUP Racer" Battle of the Brands
http://www.supracer.com/rankings/brands/
Not bad for a low budget newcomer, with only 3 paddlers racing them :)
Does anybody race Jimmy Lewis boards? They're not even listed in the rankings. :'(
Post by: Luc Benac on May 11, 2017, 07:28:01 PM
Post by: warmuth on May 11, 2017, 09:24:03 PM
Sunova holds 3rd spot in world ranking on latest "SUP Racer" Battle of the Brands
http://www.supracer.com/rankings/brands/
Not bad for a low budget newcomer, with only 3 paddlers racing them :)
Does anybody race Jimmy Lewis boards? They're not even listed in the rankings. :'(
I don't think they do any major sponsoring. Those rankings are paid for, they aren't really earned by design superiority.
Post by: Area 10 on May 12, 2017, 01:09:45 AM
Yes, Starboard sponsor far more athletes than anyone else, and put a much bigger budget into sponsoring riders. So it's not really surprising that you see SB boards at the front of so many races. They pay to roll the dice many more times than anyone else, so you'd expect them to get sixes more often.
As Mo Freitas showed in Japan, when he jumped on a different brand's board for the first time in a race and then gave a masterclass in skilful paddling, the secret to having your brand win races is spending enough money to attract the top few paddlers. Mind you, the board can't be a complete dog or they won't paddle for you. But beyond that, I doubt that race results indicate much, and actually could in some circumstances be downright misleading.
Post by: SG50SUP on May 12, 2017, 01:14:51 AM
That was Caio's board. I think the board was 24" and I think at the standing area is about 5'
Seychelle's board seemed a little different size wise but I'm not too sure about it. She ran a vmg 35Sqi fin and the small ventral and She also had ptreety good results considering she has no downwind experience and today was the day to use it to your advantage. This really demonstrate the board's abilities and the fact they chose to go with Larry's 4 fin setup for their production is a writing on the wall for what's to come.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170512/ae44899f5ef9766a864820953546ff36.jpg)
Thanks burchas. Really cool insights on the 2018 SIC RS'. Curious if anyone had pictures on Larry's 4 fin setup.
The board looks like it's a marriage between iconic Bullet with recent FX to me. Curious if Seychelle is going to use the RS or the secretly prototype 2018 Pro-Lite for the Lost Mills and Sup11CityTour's 220km race. Both she and Steeve Teihotata gave Vortex Mistral a huge launch 3 years ago winning the tour here twice in a row on Vortex proto and later with the production board. Steeve was 3rd his following year when SupBroz played a tactical game with the 21'5 Sprint.
Now that she's on SIC and coming to do the tour, I'm sure that'll be something interesting to clock and watch. Vortex is everywhere here in Europe with flatwater racing. Netherlands being main distribution source might have something to do with that.. Curious to see what Fanatic, Kundaka, A2S, JP and RRD would reveal soon.
But you're right ukgm. Naish might have some influence in the next range of boards - subtly foregoing the displacement nose design. More piercing and bulbous. Casper winning the sprint in Fiji, Kai winning the historic relay for Hawaii and Joanne renewing the 24hr guinness distance record on the Javelin might have done some rethinking for board shapers on flatwater boards.
Just a couple more weeks to Lost Mills! Who else here is in Europe?
And about narrower = faster thing. I seriously thing it all comes down to the paddler. Momo won Japan sprint on a board he's never even tested. All about preparation, confidence and how hungry we are to go faster. All about keeping it fun!
SUPmission
🤙🏽
Post by: supthecreek on May 12, 2017, 04:59:16 AM
"Those rankings are paid for, they aren't really earned by design superiority"
That's exactly what I liked about Annabel Anderson being a free agent and choosing the Sunova for the Olukai..... because she just wants a board she can win on!
Post by: burchas on May 12, 2017, 05:39:31 AM
That was Caio's board. I think the board was 24" and I think at the standing area is about 5'
Seychelle's board seemed a little different size wise but I'm not too sure about it. She ran a vmg 35Sqi fin and the small ventral and She also had ptreety good results considering she has no downwind experience and today was the day to use it to your advantage. This really demonstrate the board's abilities and the fact they chose to go with Larry's 4 fin setup for their production is a writing on the wall for what's to come.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170512/ae44899f5ef9766a864820953546ff36.jpg)
Thanks burchas. Really cool insights on the 2018 SIC RS'. Curious if anyone had pictures on Larry's 4 fin setup.
SUPmission
It's a standard Larry Allison setup. follows the same placement formula based
on tail width an kick.
Post by: warmuth on May 12, 2017, 05:42:28 AM
JL have had a couple of sponsored riders in Europe, who have done well - although maybe not quite winning the major races.
Yes, Starboard sponsor far more athletes than anyone else, and put a much bigger budget into sponsoring riders. So it's not really surprising that you see SB boards at the front of so many races. They pay to roll the dice many more times than anyone else, so you'd expect them to get sixes more often.
As Mo Freitas showed in Japan, when he jumped on a different brand's board for the first time in a race and then gave a masterclass in skilful paddling, the secret to having your brand win races is spending enough money to attract the top few paddlers. Mind you, the board can't be a complete dog or they won't paddle for you. But beyond that, I doubt that race results indicate much, and actually could in some circumstances be downright misleading.
It's money well spent by and large. Mo Freitas and his otherworldly smooth style already has people talking about the focus boards.
Post by: Area 10 on May 12, 2017, 05:45:01 AM
warmuth said:Being a free agent actually means nothing of the sort, in AA's position. She probably had less choices available to her than I would have done. Annabel likes dugouts, but Starboard is probably out (since she left them), and there will probably be similar sponsorship issues - or availability of board at the size she wanted - with the other major brands. So she probably didn't have much choice about what board to use. It pretty much had to be a custom-type dugout from one of the smaller brands. Moreover, Annabel would win on anything, so you can't really draw much conclusion from her result. She almost *too good* to make you believe that it's the board and not her.
"Those rankings are paid for, they aren't really earned by design superiority"
That's exactly what I liked about Annabel Anderson being a free agent and choosing the Sunova for the Olukai..... because she just wants a board she can win on!
So I wouldn't go pimping Sunova too much over this. We aren't stupid.
Post by: Area 10 on May 12, 2017, 05:48:33 AM
Oh yes, for sure. Mo is freakily skilful, and makes anything he stands on look as stable as a table. The power he generates at the blade is extraordinary. He doesn't even look like he's trying, half the time.JL have had a couple of sponsored riders in Europe, who have done well - although maybe not quite winning the major races.
Yes, Starboard sponsor far more athletes than anyone else, and put a much bigger budget into sponsoring riders. So it's not really surprising that you see SB boards at the front of so many races. They pay to roll the dice many more times than anyone else, so you'd expect them to get sixes more often.
As Mo Freitas showed in Japan, when he jumped on a different brand's board for the first time in a race and then gave a masterclass in skilful paddling, the secret to having your brand win races is spending enough money to attract the top few paddlers. Mind you, the board can't be a complete dog or they won't paddle for you. But beyond that, I doubt that race results indicate much, and actually could in some circumstances be downright misleading.
It's money well spent by and large. Mo Freitas and his otherworldly smooth style already has people talking about the focus boards.
It's easy to think "I could surf like Kelly Slater if I had his board". That's how marketing works. It relies on our inherent wishful thinking :)
Post by: PonoBill on May 12, 2017, 06:20:26 AM
Tails are the weirdest part of board design. Conceptually I have to wander towards the quantum level to feel like I'm getting some kind of understanding of how they work. The mechanism of energy transfer, that is. I'm not sure I understand what "release" is, the typical mental pictures that work for the rest of the board don't really fit.
Post by: Luc Benac on May 12, 2017, 07:13:15 AM
warmuth said:Being a free agent actually means nothing of the sort, in AA's position. She probably had less choices available to her than I would have done. Annabel likes dugouts, but Starboard is probably out (since she left them), and there will probably be similar sponsorship issues - or availability of board at the size she wanted - with the other major brands. So she probably didn't have much choice about what board to use. It pretty much had to be a custom-type dugout from one of the smaller brands. Moreover, Annabel would win on anything, so you can't really draw much conclusion from her result. She almost *too good* to make you believe that it's the board and not her.
"Those rankings are paid for, they aren't really earned by design superiority"
That's exactly what I liked about Annabel Anderson being a free agent and choosing the Sunova for the Olukai..... because she just wants a board she can win on!
So I wouldn't go pimping Sunova too much over this. We aren't stupid.
My apology in advance to SupTheCreek whom is a great guy as far as I can remember from all his past posts and somewhat of a legend for cold icy paddles, no disrespect to him, but I could not resist the pun after seeing what is happening on Seabreeze.
Sometime it feels a little bit like these golf stickers "Who cares about the question, the answer is....Sunova"
Nothing against the guys or the brand, just seems to have been laid so thick lately, enough to possibly turn off people.
Post by: PonoBill on May 12, 2017, 08:26:41 AM
It's a variation of the phenomenon that leads shortboarders to hate longboarders and both to hate SUP. "You're not doing what I'm doing. Let me point out all the things that are wrong with that."
Post by: burchas on May 12, 2017, 08:54:20 AM
it is justified IMO. It's no different than DJ pushing Naish or Kayadog with Infinity or
me with ZRE and LA Fins. IMO all justified.
It's very easy to be brand loyal and push it to everyone who'll listen if the brand is good.
Post by: baddog on May 12, 2017, 09:02:39 AM
warmuth said:
"Those rankings are paid for, they aren't really earned by design superiority"
That's exactly what I liked about Annabel Anderson being a free agent and choosing the Sunova for the Olukai..... because she just wants a board she can win on!
...She probably had less choices available to her than I would have...
...Annabel would win on anything, so you can't really draw much conclusion from her result. She almost *too good* to make you believe that it's the board and not her.
So I wouldn't go pimping Sunova too much over this. We aren't stupid.
She can ride anything she wants. There's not one manufacturer including Starboard, who wouldn't be happy if Annabel won on one of their boards. How many shapers wouldn't jump at the chance; none with any brains. Won't disagree about being too good; better then most of the men.
STP is a shameless Sunova pimp. I'm certain he'll be happy to recognized as such. Perhaps your dismissal of Sunova raceboards is what is short sided. Please try one and let us know what you think.
Post by: Tom on May 12, 2017, 09:14:42 AM
Post by: PonoBill on May 12, 2017, 09:17:48 AM
Does anyone think Annabelle won because she was on a Sunova? Anyone think racers win because they are paddling with a Quickblade, Kialoa, or Ke Nalu.
What I just did was to set Ke Nalu, that sells a miniscule number of paddles per year on the same plane as Quickblade and Kialoa--who sell thousands. And I did it by disparaging a marketing strategy that Quickblade and Kialoa use as if Ke Nalu did the same thing--which it doesn't.
Fun, huh? If I were advising Sunova, I'd write an advertisement that said "Annabelle Anderson didn't win the XXX because she was on a Sunova. She won because she's Annabelle. But it makes us very proud that she chose our board." Needs tweaking to make it short, but you get the idea. Tell people something negative that they already believe, and twist it into a believable way to say "she chose our board because it's the fastest".
Bullshit makes the world go round--Fonzi.
Post by: burchas on May 12, 2017, 09:29:05 AM
Yes, but it becomes predictable, boring and ineffective. I constantly advised clients against testimonials. They'd say "but this is totally unscripted, the guy is a great fan and he's well respected." Of course, they were joining the other 3000 companies with testimonials that everyone discounts. Let me show you a little marketing trick. See if you pick it up before I tell you.
Does anyone think Annabelle won because she was on a Sunova? Anyone think racers win because they are paddling with a Quickblade, Kialoa, or Ke Nalu.
What I just did was to set Ke Nalu, that sells a miniscule number of paddles per year on the same plane as Quickblade and Kialoa--who sell thousands. And I did it by disparaging a marketing strategy that Quickblade and Kialoa use as if Ke Nalu did the same thing--which it doesn't.
Fun, huh? If I were advising Sunova, I'd write an advertisement that said "Annabelle Anderson didn't win the XXX because she was on a Sunova. She won because she's Annabelle. But it makes us very proud that she chose our board." Needs tweaking to make it short, but you get the idea. Tell people something negative that they already believe, and twist it into a believable way to say "she chose our board because it's the fastest".
Bullshit makes the world go round--Fonzi.
I see what you did here. I usually try to bore people with the actual facts that makes a product
great IMO. If they ever get to read what I wrote they'll usually see my point.
I can see how yours has a broader appeal, thanks for the lesson! Hope STC is taking notes ;)
Post by: LaPerouseBay on May 12, 2017, 01:46:46 PM
/
My apology in advance to SupTheCreek whom is a great guy as far as I can remember from all his past posts and somewhat of a legend for cold icy paddles, no disrespect to him, but I could not resist the pun after seeing what is happening on Seabreeze.
/
Interesting ideas on marketing from everyone. I had a look over on Seabreeze for some controversy, but didn't find anything.
Yeah, Creek is the real thing. I say good on him for his enthusiasm about Sunova. He's an old salt and is a major contributor to the zone.
/
Sunova is the new guy on the block for racing and I'm sure they'll be in the top soon. They have a great designer in Marcus Tardrew and their construction is off the charts. They have come out with a new line of race/touring boards, so expect to be hearing more from them.
/
This was over on the breeze, I need to check in there more than once a year. This guy is absolutely flying. It's the same cam view I've used hundreds of times on my ski. Gopros are horribly deceptive for downwind, but if you look way off to the side - down the line - those are wide, well organised open ocean swells. Not super big, but he's really zooming with virtually no effort. Great paddler. I don't know where this is, but it reminds me a lot of maliko. At 4 minutes it starts to get shallower, so the swells slow down, get steeper. That shows how blazing fast he was going in the early part of the video. Very, very hard to link the swells and maintain glide like he's doing. Very patient, very smart. I can't wait for these top dogs to start posting video with telemetry.
https://vimeo.com/203793658
Post by: supjacko on May 12, 2017, 04:15:48 PM
Some amazing new boards hitting the market this year from lots of brands so weather its a Starboard, Sunova or ONE it doesn't really matter as the level is so high they are really all pretty good.
Jacko
Post by: Rideordie on May 12, 2017, 04:32:21 PM
Post by: Area 10 on May 12, 2017, 04:57:16 PM
I was at the Japan event and can say Mo looked by far the best all event, sure i was stoked when he choose to use our board for the Semi's and Final when he had a beach full of boards to choose from but the way he was paddling he would have been right there anyway.And so you put into practice exactly what PonoBill just taught you. Pimptastic!
Some amazing new boards hitting the market this year from lots of brands so weather its a Starboard, Sunova or ONE it doesn't really matter as the level is so high they are really all pretty good.
Jacko
Post by: PonoBill on May 12, 2017, 07:11:47 PM
Post by: mrbig on May 12, 2017, 07:38:40 PM
Post by: yugi on May 12, 2017, 08:35:01 PM
Fiona sure is coming on strong. That might be her with her foot on the odd Starboard.
Tails are the weirdest part of board design. Conceptually I have to wander towards the quantum level to feel like I'm getting some kind of understanding of how they work. The mechanism of energy transfer, that is. I'm not sure I understand what "release" is, the typical mental pictures that work for the rest of the board don't really fit.
In skiing there was a raging debate on the merits of swallowtails on skis. The conclusion was that they are awesome because Chicksdiggit.
Post by: yugi on May 12, 2017, 08:41:35 PM
...
The sand in the finish to provide grip is a bad idea. Will shred your knees or whatever comes in contact.
...
obviously you're not a windsurfer
Post by: supthecreek on May 12, 2017, 11:23:18 PM
I can't throw my opinions around about which skinny board is fastest or exactly when age affects endurance.
All I got in my bag is race results and team news.
But.... I am super, super stoked about what my friend Tino and his little team have managed to accomplish in a few months.
Sunova is a brand new, low budget program, using a VERY different construction, that has won 3 of 5 races, against the best racers in the world. (with every finish in the top 10)
and yes, it is true... Annabel could win on an ironing board...... but for some reason, she chose a Sunova... apologies to the ironing board.
If that is inappropriate new raceboard discussion, so be it.
Note:
Sunova does ZERO advertising, other than having me for a mascot.. and no, sadly I wasn't paying attention to the tutorial, so the bullshit is likely to continue.
Post by: PonoBill on May 13, 2017, 05:48:23 AM
Post by: Area 10 on May 13, 2017, 07:51:26 AM
Post by: PonoBill on May 13, 2017, 11:47:58 AM
Post by: Area 10 on May 13, 2017, 12:03:14 PM
Post by: PonoBill on May 13, 2017, 01:19:51 PM
Post by: ukgm on May 15, 2017, 03:21:13 AM
Sunova holds 3rd spot in world ranking on latest "SUP Racer" Battle of the Brands
http://www.supracer.com/rankings/brands/
Not bad for a low budget newcomer, with only 3 paddlers racing them :)
It depends on how much stock you put in how the best brand is calculated. I've exchanged views offline with Chris in the past about this and I think his individual rankings are a good system but the brand ones are pretty irrelevant when only a smaller percentage are true international frequently travelling racers.
Post by: burchas on May 15, 2017, 05:40:36 AM
It depends on how much stock you put in how the best brand is calculated.
Seems to be arbitrary mix with bias. So pretty much BS.
Considering how many top riders got podium on the SIC painted with their team theme
in the downwind races but never once got credit for it and then he goes and give credit
for Sunova after Anderson won. So he's all over the place on that.
Then again, he's a shameless promoter so I wouldn't put stock in that any way as I'm
sure he's on a kick back plan.
That said, the guy has in-depth knowledge of what's going on and has good coverage
both online and and on the live streams so kudos to him for figuring out how to get
paid on this cash poor sport.
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2017, 07:26:15 AM
But yes, the website and his coverage is usually really good, and I think that those of us who like to watch racing (strangely, I get more entertainment out of watching other people race than I do out of racing myself) we are very lucky that someone has done what he had done.
Post by: ukgm on May 15, 2017, 08:07:36 AM
It depends on how much stock you put in how the best brand is calculated.
Seems to be arbitrary mix with bias. So pretty much BS.
Considering how many top riders got podium on the SIC painted with their team theme
in the downwind races but never once got credit for it and then he goes and give credit
for Sunova after Anderson won. So he's all over the place on that.
Then again, he's a shameless promoter so I wouldn't put stock in that any way as I'm
sure he's on a kick back plan.
That said, the guy has in-depth knowledge of what's going on and has good coverage
both online and and on the live streams so kudos to him for figuring out how to get
paid on this cash poor sport.
My point was that the team score being calculated using 3 men and one female isn't representative of what goes on with the sport internationally and is flawed in my view. You don't have to look too far down its top 10 to see the limitations of that. I'm neither critical nor aware of any loyalties he may or may not have within the industry as a whole so can't comment on those.
Post by: burchas on May 15, 2017, 09:21:49 AM
It depends on how much stock you put in how the best brand is calculated.
Seems to be arbitrary mix with bias. So pretty much BS.
Considering how many top riders got podium on the SIC painted with their team theme
in the downwind races but never once got credit for it and then he goes and give credit
for Sunova after Anderson won. So he's all over the place on that.
Then again, he's a shameless promoter so I wouldn't put stock in that any way as I'm
sure he's on a kick back plan.
That said, the guy has in-depth knowledge of what's going on and has good coverage
both online and and on the live streams so kudos to him for figuring out how to get
paid on this cash poor sport.
My point was that the team score being calculated using 3 men and one female isn't representative of what goes on with the sport internationally and is flawed in my view. You don't have to look too far down its top 10 to see the limitations of that. I'm neither critical nor aware of any loyalties he may or may not have within the industry as a whole so can't comment on those.
Regardless of criticism, I think I pointed out an even greater flaw.
If you count all the downwind races where all top 3 or even 5 are actually
on an SIC boards rather than team boards you'll probably have SIC at #2.
The whole idea behind the brand ranking is to show the "best-performing board
manufacturers" and if you go by that logic, you have to give credit where credit
is due.
Post by: ukgm on May 16, 2017, 04:43:35 AM
It depends on how much stock you put in how the best brand is calculated.
Seems to be arbitrary mix with bias. So pretty much BS.
Considering how many top riders got podium on the SIC painted with their team theme
in the downwind races but never once got credit for it and then he goes and give credit
for Sunova after Anderson won. So he's all over the place on that.
Then again, he's a shameless promoter so I wouldn't put stock in that any way as I'm
sure he's on a kick back plan.
That said, the guy has in-depth knowledge of what's going on and has good coverage
both online and and on the live streams so kudos to him for figuring out how to get
paid on this cash poor sport.
My point was that the team score being calculated using 3 men and one female isn't representative of what goes on with the sport internationally and is flawed in my view. You don't have to look too far down its top 10 to see the limitations of that. I'm neither critical nor aware of any loyalties he may or may not have within the industry as a whole so can't comment on those.
Regardless of criticism, I think I pointed out an even greater flaw.
If you count all the downwind races where all top 3 or even 5 are actually
on an SIC boards rather than team boards you'll probably have SIC at #2.
The whole idea behind the brand ranking is to show the "best-performing board
manufacturers" and if you go by that logic, you have to give credit where credit
is due.
This rebadging issue has been occuring in cycling for years. Mind you, they don't credit manufacturers alone like SUP (or F1) does. I guess the argument is that the true downwind races where that happens are actually a small percentage of overall full race season.
Post by: Area 10 on May 16, 2017, 04:58:50 AM
Post by: GlideMarko on May 16, 2017, 05:24:53 AM
Check the tail on Connor's AS - from Japan. 2018 AS maybe?
Maybe he was just on this years 12'6''
Post by: viatormundi on May 17, 2017, 12:19:12 PM
Sunova holds 3rd spot in world ranking on latest "SUP Racer" Battle of the Brands
http://www.supracer.com/rankings/brands/
Not bad for a low budget newcomer, with only 3 paddlers racing them :)
Jimmy Lewis has/had couple of good race boards for example the Sidewinder. The brand has one or two Italian riders who won some races in Europe and one of them had an impressive result in SUP 11 City with 23 wide Sidewinder. The board is not a pure flat water board, imagine that. What happened with Jimmy Lewis is in Europe is that there is one European distributor, no more country distributors. This made the brand to disappear from some shops especially in Spain. The same trend is happening now with NSP and Quickblade. The brands are eliminating the country distributors. This sometimes pushes the prices down, good for the consumer but in general the brands are also losing the local support and marketing.
This whole brand ranking thing is quite misleading. The brand who has the best riders has the highest ranking in general. The ranking should be called more "who has the best riders in his team" or similar IMHO.
Does anybody race Jimmy Lewis boards? They're not even listed in the rankings. :'(
I don't think they do any major sponsoring. Those rankings are paid for, they aren't really earned by design superiority.
Post by: Eagle on May 17, 2017, 12:59:55 PM
Post by: burchas on May 23, 2017, 04:39:52 PM
Great pics, burchas, thanks very much.
Looks like the RS should be pretty stable for its width. I'm surprised the deck isn't lowered just a little bit more. That's what I was expecting. But maybe if it's got eg. the PPG in mind, then you'd want to minimise the deck lowering. I'd love to try one, it could be a very adaptable shape. Do you know what sizes it will be coming in?
A10, from what I hear, Mark read your post and decided to lower the deck at the standing area
by an inch and added drain holes, maybe some minor changes to the nose to make it ever more
piercing.
Volume I think is 290 for few of the 14" models width 23, 24.5, 26 and 28.
Post by: Eagle on May 23, 2017, 05:12:11 PM
Post by: bernhardd on June 08, 2017, 09:19:49 AM
Titouan is doing Great on it at the Euro Tour - lots of SB Sprint 21,5 behind him!
Greetings from Austria
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170608/9cb6af82a13f71f3f01ed4411941f3f6.png)
Post by: Eagle on June 08, 2017, 11:59:34 AM
Post by: ukgm on June 25, 2017, 04:30:38 AM
Post by: Eagle on June 25, 2017, 10:48:08 AM
The 24.5AS boof actually floats quite high vs the low slung 23. Upwind and DW my 23 pearls easy but the 24.5 not at all.
The 24.5 feels like a big platform vs the 23 and both Sprints.
Post by: yugi on June 25, 2017, 11:33:21 PM
Any Infos on this board? 2018 NSP Sonic 14 x 23?
...
It's a pin tail.
Post by: DavidJohn on June 26, 2017, 12:10:16 AM
Any Infos on this board? 2018 NSP Sonic 14 x 23?
...
It's a pin tail.
and no more DC on the graphics.
Post by: ukgm on June 26, 2017, 12:31:48 AM
Yeah kinda looks more angular than expected. With his Sprint he has a good combo for flats and chop. Larry seems to be adapting quite well to narrower boards.
The 24.5AS boof actually floats quite high vs the low slung 23. Upwind and DW my 23 pearls easy but the 24.5 not at all.
The 24.5 feels like a big platform vs the 23 and both Sprints.
So did that look like a new AS to you too ?
Post by: Eagle on June 26, 2017, 09:45:45 AM
The Sonic looks good for AW with low COG.
Post by: ukgm on June 26, 2017, 11:16:58 AM
The colour ways design looks bloody awful and something out of the 1980's. They should fire their graphic designer !
Post by: Eagle on June 26, 2017, 12:03:06 PM
Post by: JEG on June 26, 2017, 03:18:11 PM
Post by: Area 10 on June 26, 2017, 04:49:39 PM
Post by: SUPflorida on June 26, 2017, 05:04:43 PM
'Blue and green should never be seen'.
The colour ways design looks bloody awful and something out of the 1980's. They should fire their graphic designer !
Blue & green are my favorite colors...especially when used together.
Apparently I'm in good company...God loves blue (sky) and green (oceans), when you get around to creating a planet you can pick your favorites...can't wait to see you show Him how it's done 🙄 😜😏
Post by: Luc Benac on June 26, 2017, 05:20:52 PM
Both Starboard and One Sup with the high-vis orange and green make the boards a lot more visible.
I am always wearing something hi-vis from shirt to shorts or pdf jacket, and the incidence of boaters speeding straight to me on an otherwise empty sea has been significantly reduced.
Still leaves the idiots or the blind but for the average, works like a charm.
Post by: ukgm on June 26, 2017, 11:51:10 PM
Haha! Yeah the colorway is a bit out there vs last year. Guess they wanted to throw in some orange to identify Tito etc from SB. But why no Naish rep this year? Not much Casper and zero Kai. What is up with Naish racing?
Casper is racing hard at the moment (he just won the europeans). Kai has been doing a lot of surf stuff going by facebook.
Post by: ukgm on June 26, 2017, 11:52:06 PM
Outside of fashion statement, you have to give credit to safety.
Both Starboard and One Sup with the high-vis orange and green make the boards a lot more visible.
I am always wearing something hi-vis from shirt to shorts or pdf jacket, and the incidence of boaters speeding straight to me on an otherwise empty sea has been significantly reduced.
Still leaves the idiots or the blind but for the average, works like a charm.
I wouldn't say those with blue boards are high vis or safety orientated - its just corporate colorways.
Post by: Area 10 on June 27, 2017, 01:01:49 AM
If you ever see the ocean that colour of dayglo green that NSP are using, you'll know that the end of the world is nigh. That colour screams "man-made".'Blue and green should never be seen'.
The colour ways design looks bloody awful and something out of the 1980's. They should fire their graphic designer !
Blue & green are my favorite colors...especially when used together.
Apparently I'm in good company...God loves blue (sky) and green (oceans), when you get around to creating a planet you can pick your favorites...can't wait to see you show Him how it's done 🙄 😜😏
One reason why these garish colours are popular with some brands, other than that it makes them stand out and the brand to be easily identifiable (which is the principal reason IMO), is that they tend to reflect heat reasonably well. However you can't beat plain white for that of course.
A downside of these garish colours is that they make repairs harder.
Naish have managed to use bright colours and "youthful" type designs without the result looking like a 4 year old has vomited a popsicle. So it can be done.
Personally, I prefer more "grown-up" graphics though, like SICs. Some of the JL graphics are pretty tasty too IMO. If you want bright colours that aren't too garish then even the Surftech Bark graphics are less like a pair of '70s underpants than the ones NSP have used.
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on June 27, 2017, 04:13:59 AM
Post by: Luc Benac on June 27, 2017, 07:18:08 AM
Not sure that hi-vis stripes would work :-)
I also like SIC scheme.
Post by: Area 10 on June 27, 2017, 07:50:30 AM
Post by: JEG on June 27, 2017, 02:37:48 PM
Maybe they're working on new Naish racing boards, any news?
Sunova's just released their 5th racing board.
JP & RRD & NSP & any SUP brand, if you ever need opinion about detail msg me ;)
Post by: warmuth on June 27, 2017, 04:35:58 PM
Post by: supthecreek on June 27, 2017, 07:01:57 PM
what happen to Naish racing this year and is it the budget or the rider/boards or both.
Maybe they're working on new Naish racing boards, any news?
Sunova's just released their 5th racing board.
From Kelly Margetts instagram post:
Introducing the Allwater Faast Pro, the fifth and final board to round out the @sunova_surfboards Pro Race board range. This @marcus_tardrew brainchild, started as a prototype that I raced at this years @supcarolinacup. But after extensive racing and paddling up and down the east coast of Australia and America; seeing the way it handled downwind, upwind and all conditions from ocean, lakes, flat, as well as the messy inlet and river mouth waters, we knew it had to go into production.
Post by: Area 10 on June 27, 2017, 08:18:33 PM
Post by: supthecreek on June 28, 2017, 12:59:18 AM
Anyway...... It seems to work well enough for some folks.
Post by: Area 10 on June 28, 2017, 02:58:36 AM
Ha ha.....Area 10, I only post on YOUR thread, to see your instant dissent ::)By your own admission, you don't race or know much about race boards. I am basing my observations on my use of a Starboard Ace, and the Sunova design is taking the most tricky aspects of ownership and use of that board and exaggerating it - which you might not know since you don't use them. But I understand that you will get stroppy if anyone dares to say anything about Sunova except unbridled enthusiasm, and that your aim is to "make SUPing great again" ;)
Anyway...... It seems to work well enough for some folks.
There are pros and cons to all designs. The balanced opinion acknowledges both. Marketing blurb does not.
Post by: ukgm on June 28, 2017, 04:25:55 AM
Well, if you are a fan of dugouts (or clogs), that Sunova is going to appeal. But getting back into that after a fall is going to be tricky, and beach starts and surf might be an issue too. Those side walls look potentially very painful in a stumble, and easy to damage when paddling or transporting, and it might be tricky to carry. In his way, these dug-out all-waters race boards aren't perhaps quite as versatile as they first seem.
Wood finish looks lovely. However, if we're designing a race board, I'm sure getting the weight down might be a bigger priority ?
Post by: Area 10 on June 28, 2017, 05:57:30 AM
Is the wood sandwich significantly heavier than using some other material (e.g. PVC)? The wood laminate they use will be very thin. More of a concern to me would be the difficulty of repairs and the likelihood of the wood absorbing water after a ding. But I'm not a repair specialist so maybe these are not things I should be unduly worried about.Well, if you are a fan of dugouts (or clogs), that Sunova is going to appeal. But getting back into that after a fall is going to be tricky, and beach starts and surf might be an issue too. Those side walls look potentially very painful in a stumble, and easy to damage when paddling or transporting, and it might be tricky to carry. In his way, these dug-out all-waters race boards aren't perhaps quite as versatile as they first seem.
Wood finish looks lovely. However, if we're designing a race board, I'm sure getting the weight down might be a bigger priority ?
Post by: burchas on June 28, 2017, 08:57:45 AM
Is the wood sandwich significantly heavier than using some other material (e.g. PVC)? The wood laminate they use will be very thin. More of a concern to me would be the difficulty of repairs and the likelihood of the wood absorbing water after a ding. But I'm not a repair specialist so maybe these are not things I should be unduly worried about.Well, if you are a fan of dugouts (or clogs), that Sunova is going to appeal. But getting back into that after a fall is going to be tricky, and beach starts and surf might be an issue too. Those side walls look potentially very painful in a stumble, and easy to damage when paddling or transporting, and it might be tricky to carry. In his way, these dug-out all-waters race boards aren't perhaps quite as versatile as they first seem.
Wood finish looks lovely. However, if we're designing a race board, I'm sure getting the weight down might be a bigger priority ?
I've ridden and handled most of the Sunova line. Weight seem to be on
par with many race boards for a certain size. Construction seems very solid.
That said I share your concern as far as dings and repairs, maybe someone
with more knowledge in that matter could jump in.
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on June 28, 2017, 10:09:06 AM
Post by: SUPflorida on June 28, 2017, 11:04:26 AM
Wood as a sandwich layer is inferior, but cheaper core than PVC foam. All other things being equal when you move the inner and outer laminate apart it increase stiffness. Roughly 1 to 4 or 1/4" core is going to be 4 times as stiff as a 1/8" core. I have not ridden a Jimmy Lewis board but I am very familiar with that type of construction, I would expect with his laminate/core layup his boards are plunty stuff without the use of carbon. As stiff or stiffer than a single laminate carbon or thin wood carbon combination.
The industry has invented a whole host of marketing reasons to get the public to buy a lesser product for a premium price. "The natural look of wood", some imaginary magic flex pattern, sustainability, more "organic", increased strength over single laminate" and the list goes on...but at the end of the day a well designed and constructed PVC core is going to give you the ability to make a stronger board, a lighter board, a stiffer board, have a longer useful life, and be less suseptable to damage than any other system now available for a hard performance board. As long as you know your making a compromise, no worries, but to say wood is better with cost not a factor....that's just fantasy.
Post by: warmuth on June 28, 2017, 11:48:48 AM
Post by: ukgm on June 28, 2017, 12:28:12 PM
Is the wood sandwich significantly heavier than using some other material (e.g. PVC)? The wood laminate they use will be very thin. More of a concern to me would be the difficulty of repairs and the likelihood of the wood absorbing water after a ding. But I'm not a repair specialist so maybe these are not things I should be unduly worried about.Well, if you are a fan of dugouts (or clogs), that Sunova is going to appeal. But getting back into that after a fall is going to be tricky, and beach starts and surf might be an issue too. Those side walls look potentially very painful in a stumble, and easy to damage when paddling or transporting, and it might be tricky to carry. In his way, these dug-out all-waters race boards aren't perhaps quite as versatile as they first seem.
Wood finish looks lovely. However, if we're designing a race board, I'm sure getting the weight down might be a bigger priority ?
I've ridden and handled most of the Sunova line. Weight seem to be on
par with many race boards for a certain size. Construction seems very solid.
That said I share your concern as far as dings and repairs, maybe someone
with more knowledge in that matter could jump in.
That's my point. If they can make wood en par, chances are standard construction could have been lighter or they could have got a stronger integrity. To suggest wood is as good as contemporary materials is rediculous.
Post by: JEG on June 28, 2017, 03:06:20 PM
that sunova rail edge look sharp, maybe they will rounded up on the production boards. I'm starting to like the wood thing look.
Post by: Area 10 on June 28, 2017, 03:30:08 PM
dugout board will have some difficulty getting up after a fall though why are they still making/selling them, that is the question.They are making/selling them because in the right hands and conditions, they are an effective race design. But although they tend to be marketed as "all conditions" boards, in fact they are just as specialised as flat water boards are (although of course, in a different way), for the reasons discussed above. I can't see many people buying this sort of design for recreation paddling, whereas you certainly wouldn't say that about all-conditions boards like the Maliko, All Star etc.
that sunova rail edge look sharp, maybe they will rounded up on the production boards. I'm starting to like the wood thing look.
Post by: Eagle on June 28, 2017, 05:38:52 PM
The feel of the Ace 23.5 was very much more uniform refined and controlled vs the tippier AS23. The bottom shape of the AS has a ton going on - almost too much. As well different models in the same or similar width have a completely different feel ie. Sprint tippy fast - AS tippy ok fast but a bit splashy - Ace somewhat tippy but decelerates quite fast. So can see the Ace benefiting huge from wave and wind push DW. The boof nose floats easy over waves upwind.
The Sunova has more a cutting entry vs boofy. So probs handles a bit differently. Personally the low standing height is a much better feel than up high like on the AS. But pros and cons to every design. Sitting on the water hanging legs over is not optimal of course. And quite tough to do quick buoy turns.
https://www.surffx.com.au/product/sunova-ocean-faast-pro/
http://www.californiakiteboarding.com/product/2016-starboard-ace-140-x-25/
Post by: JEG on June 28, 2017, 08:44:03 PM
Post by: burchas on June 28, 2017, 08:46:15 PM
I've ridden and handled most of the Sunova line. Weight seem to be on
par with many race boards for a certain size. Construction seems very solid.
That said I share your concern as far as dings and repairs, maybe someone
with more knowledge in that matter could jump in.
That's my point. If they can make wood en par, chances are standard construction could have been lighter or they could have got a stronger integrity. To suggest wood is as good as contemporary materials is rediculous.
If you have first hand knowledge about Sunova construction, please share,
otherwise it's just hot air.
Post by: yugi on June 28, 2017, 11:49:08 PM
That's my point. If they can make wood en par, chances are standard construction could have been lighter or they could have got a stronger integrity. To suggest wood is as good as contemporary materials is rediculous.
:o
Obviously you’re not a skier.
Nor a windsurfer.
Nor a kiteboarder.
Post by: supuk on June 28, 2017, 11:49:51 PM
Post by: ukgm on June 29, 2017, 12:03:26 AM
That's my point. If they can make wood en par, chances are standard construction could have been lighter or they could have got a stronger integrity. To suggest wood is as good as contemporary materials is rediculous.
:o
Obviously you’re not a skier.
Nor a windsurfer.
Nor a kiteboarder.
No, but I've got a degree in product design, a masters in engineering and a PhD in sports technology. As a result, I understand the basics of both marketing and materials science. You don't seriously believe they are selecting a wood veneer (although it could be a decal wrap) for anything other than aesthetics ? You'd get better controllable material dynamics with a composite and probably for less cost.
Post by: yugi on June 29, 2017, 12:13:03 AM
In skiing wood cores are well known for vibration dampening qualities over foam cores. Also last much longer. Foam cores came and went. Several times.
Before you laugh [about why a SUP would need that] let me assure you that when they added a wood laminate to windsurfers we felt the same effect.
http://2006.star-board.com/products/technology.asp
Kiteboards with wood cores like Nobile are well known to be far more solid. There’s also that sweet flex and dampening qualities.
All three of the above are used in water. Just by the way.
FYI. Many SUPs are constructed with a wood layer under your feet. Without you seeing it.
There's actually is a reason for it. Ski, windsurf and kite aficionados have regularly had these arguments and wood has always come back. Simply because it works well.
New stuff will always be tried. Nature remains very cool. I find flax composites interesting. I wonder if surfboards will one day use them.
Post by: ukgm on June 29, 2017, 12:48:06 AM
^ nope [edit to add: to both above]
In skiing wood cores are well known for vibration dampening qualities over foam cores. Also last much longer. Foam cores came and went. Several times.
Before you laugh [about why a SUP would need that] let me assure you that when they added a wood laminate to windsurfers we felt the same effect.
http://2006.star-board.com/products/technology.asp
Kiteboards with wood cores like Nobile are well known to be far more solid. There’s also that sweet flex and dampening qualities.
All three of the above are used in water. Just by the way.
FYI. Many SUPs are constructed with a wood layer under your feet. Without you seeing it.
There's actually is a reason for it. I'm shocked with all your degrees you wouldn't know that. Go over to a ski, windsurf and kite forum and plenty of people over there without degrees will be able to explain it for you. You will find out why wood keeps coming back into these applications. Despite many novel technology attempts.
New stuff will always be tried. Nature remains very cool. I find flax composites interesting. I wonder if surfboards will one day use them.
As I said, it's about 'controllable properties'. For example, bamboo is a fantastic material for bicycle frames but some of the issues are material property consistency and wastage due to not always being able to guarantee the propertires of what you're supplied. That's why modern composites trump it as the cost has come down to silly levels and you can tailor the layup/matrix/fibre alignment to get it to do exactly what you want it to do.
As for your examples, a wood core isn't obviously a bad idea but its used in conjunction with other materials to get the tuneability that's needed and using wood as a dynamic spring is different to utilising it as a top later over a foam core. Yes its wood but your examples are apples and oranges. The other thing is that I'm yet to be aware of any SUP company that employs a material scientist/engineer so I don't put a lot of stock in a company doing something like this until I know their development credentials (many in sports equipment companies got on the carbon fibre bandwagon back in the early 90's leading to widespread breakages and poor design as many didn't know how to actually use it properly).
Nature is cool (I'm a huge fan of biomimicry in product design myself). As for the future, its low-cost, diversely useable innovations like graphene that will really do the business.
Post by: yugi on June 29, 2017, 01:00:07 AM
However reality is that it was just stunning the effect utilizing wood as a top later over a foam core on a windsurfer had on the ride. It just plain works. Sometimes we need to reverse engineer to find out what is going on.
Sunova’s construction is precisely so in order to tune flex for surfing. Check their vids. Of course it has less reason d'etre for a clog boat other than that's how they build.
Like I said wood is used a lot in SUPs as an extra layer in the standing area. Probably comes down to cost for that application.
Anyway, you’re right about one thing. Wood sucks when water gets in. I’ll be happy when better is found.
Post by: ukgm on June 29, 2017, 01:01:44 AM
I follow your logic.
However it was just stunning the effect utilising wood as a top later over a foam core on a windsurfer had on the ride.
Sunova’s construction is precisely to tune flex for surfing. Check their vids.
Like I said wood is used a lot in SUPs as a layer in the standing area. Probably comes down to cost for that application.
Anyway, you’re right about one thing. Wood sucks when water gets in. I’ll be happy when better is found.
Don't get me wrong, it's a stunning looking board. ..... and i think its worth being aware of the end user differences. For example, I'd want to race so I'd rather lose a kilo off the board than acquire the looks. However, if I'm paying full retail and racing once in a blue moon, I could see myself going for that. It's beautiful.
Post by: yugi on June 29, 2017, 01:07:34 AM
Post by: Area 10 on June 29, 2017, 01:50:58 AM
the most likely reason they use wood over foam is it gives a aesthetic finnish (if you like that look) with a clear glass job so no need for paint that chips ect however there are always compromises like weight and the fact if you ding it it soaks water like a sponge. There are some pvc core materials that look good but are expensive and there is also cork which I prefer as it does not absorb water and lovely to use however it is a little heavier.ukgm: Naish has used wood laminate widely in its boards, going back to at least 2009. I've owned three Naishes with either visible or hidden wood.
But I think that supuk has probably nailed it here. There are obvious advantages to avoiding paint on a sup, but it is very hard to get a good cosmetic finish using a resin tint. So the obvious solution is to make a feature of the laminate material and use a clear gloss finish on top. That way you can get a non-chipping, reasonably tough and stiff, and acceptable-looking construction that also keeps the cost down and doesn't require exceptional skills to build.
But you end up with a board that is very hard to repair to an acceptable cosmetic standard, and that will suck up water if it gets dinged, possibly leading to a more catastrophic situation than would otherwise occur, especially if you had used PVC instead. But PVC is expensive.
Of the production boards, no-one else can touch Jimmy Lewis for construction standard IMO. Some customs are of course even better, however.
Post by: ukgm on June 29, 2017, 01:56:41 AM
the most likely reason they use wood over foam is it gives a aesthetic finnish (if you like that look) with a clear glass job so no need for paint that chips ect however there are always compromises like weight and the fact if you ding it it soaks water like a sponge. There are some pvc core materials that look good but are expensive and there is also cork which I prefer as it does not absorb water and lovely to use however it is a little heavier.1) ukgm: Naish has used wood laminate widely in its boards, going back to at least 2009. I've owned three Naishes with either visible or hidden wood.
2) But I think that supuk has probably nailed it here. There are obvious advantages to avoiding paint on a sup, but it is very hard to get a good cosmetic finish using a resin tint. So the obvious solution is to make a feature of the laminate material and use a clear gloss finish on top. That way you can get a non-chipping, reasonably tough and stiff, and acceptable-looking construction that also keeps the cost down and doesn't require exceptional skills to build.
1) Yep, however, I think it was clear that was purely for aestheticsbut if there is more to it, I'd certainly be interested in knowing why.
2) Yep, as i said in my first post. My guess would be 99.9% for aesthetic reasons. You could claim its for board dynamics but without instrumentation (and knowing that a board is a highly complex form), its just a marketing claim. I must admit, getting in a tank and wiring a board up would be an interesting experience to learn more but outside of a students masters/PhD project, you'd never get the funding for it.
Post by: yugi on June 29, 2017, 05:18:03 AM
Wood as a laminate has a few advantages. It's a common product and there are common tools and know how to work with it in thin sheets. It's a bit shock absorbing and has interesting vibration dampening qualities. It's use as a sandwich laminate in windsurfers can be felt in the ride. Wakeboard, kite boards and skis are wood core as UKGM points out so a bit different but one can really feel how a wood core has better damping properties than anything else we've got so far (and a lot has been tried in skis). More solid too for the weight. It's probably currently a pretty cost effective option. It's main disadvantage is wood sucks if it gets wet. Literally.
There is a big body knowledge of test and feedback on this in windsurf boards.
Wood as a skin is also interesting due to it's shock absorbing and vibration dampening properties. It isn't brittle and can take a few bangs before it breaks. Of course it depends how thick you make that skin.
I'd love to hear Bert and Tino's experiences with it. Both know classic methods of construction very well to compare it with.
Post by: ukgm on July 27, 2017, 03:45:01 AM
https://www.thesupco.co.uk/boards/starboard-all-star-14-x-26-hybrid-carbon-2018
Post by: Area 10 on July 27, 2017, 06:35:17 AM
One of our UK based Starboard retailers is now provisionally listing an 2018 Allstar in a 26 inch width. Bear in mind that for 2017 there was nothing between the 24.5 and the 27.24 and 26 would be more sensible IMO.
https://www.thesupco.co.uk/boards/starboard-all-star-14-x-26-hybrid-carbon-2018
Post by: ukgm on July 27, 2017, 06:51:44 AM
One of our UK based Starboard retailers is now provisionally listing an 2018 Allstar in a 26 inch width. Bear in mind that for 2017 there was nothing between the 24.5 and the 27.24 and 26 would be more sensible IMO.
https://www.thesupco.co.uk/boards/starboard-all-star-14-x-26-hybrid-carbon-2018
I'm more of a fan of 23, 25 and 27. The 23 is outright elite level balance, 25 is for regular racers and the 27 can handle bigger conditions without being a tank.
Post by: yugi on July 27, 2017, 07:29:34 AM
Their Evo all-round board is available in 23", 24", 25", 26", 28".
Storm dugout in 24, 25, 26, 28.
Edge flatwater in 22, 23, 24, 26
Sorry, if 27 is what you have decided you are looking for, this obviously isn't your brand.
Post by: Area 10 on July 27, 2017, 07:58:30 AM
Hardly any can race 23.One of our UK based Starboard retailers is now provisionally listing an 2018 Allstar in a 26 inch width. Bear in mind that for 2017 there was nothing between the 24.5 and the 27.24 and 26 would be more sensible IMO.
https://www.thesupco.co.uk/boards/starboard-all-star-14-x-26-hybrid-carbon-2018
I'm more of a fan of 23, 25 and 27. The 23 is outright elite level balance, 25 is for regular racers and the 27 can handle bigger conditions without being a tank.
Many can race 24
Most can race 26
No-one races 27.
25 is an awkward halfway house - pretty tricky for many, too wide for the really good.
But we've had this argument before. I think Naish have got it right, and you think Starbosrd have (or had).
Post by: Jacko on July 27, 2017, 08:28:27 AM
For specific width satisfaction ONE SUP is awesome.
Their Evo all-round board is available in 23", 24", 25", 26", 28".
Storm dugout in 24, 25, 26, 28.
Edge flatwater in 22, 23, 24, 26
Sorry, if 27 is what you have decided you are looking for, this obviously isn't your brand.
Haha yes that is a lot of sizings and may confuse some but we like to think that the shops we sell to know their markets and will just choose what is right for the area they live.
We can do 27 as well if someone wants no worries all they have to do is ask their local shop really any width is a option if someone wants that something different.
Post by: ukgm on July 27, 2017, 08:36:10 AM
Hardly any can race 23.One of our UK based Starboard retailers is now provisionally listing an 2018 Allstar in a 26 inch width. Bear in mind that for 2017 there was nothing between the 24.5 and the 27.24 and 26 would be more sensible IMO.
https://www.thesupco.co.uk/boards/starboard-all-star-14-x-26-hybrid-carbon-2018
I'm more of a fan of 23, 25 and 27. The 23 is outright elite level balance, 25 is for regular racers and the 27 can handle bigger conditions without being a tank.
Many can race 24
Most can race 26
No-one races 27.
25 is an awkward halfway house - pretty tricky for many, too wide for the really good.
But we've had this argument before. I think Naish have got it right, and you think Starbosrd have (or had).
Well, I'm a Naish paddler so i have my biases !!
Trying to be as objective as possible, until modern innovations occured (such as the Allstar 2015 - whereby the main drive to get the width down then provides shaping features to facilitate this), I would have agreed with you. I would say though, I agree that the 26 is going to be the defacto, weekend warrior board width. Board widths won't win races but I'm increasingly of the opinion that if you paddle any wider than a 25, you've got no chance at placing. Granted, it's not all about the racing.
Post by: yugi on July 27, 2017, 08:48:10 AM
...
Hardly any can race 23.
Many can race 24
Most can race 26
No-one races 27.
25 is an awkward halfway house - pretty tricky for many, too wide for the really good.
But we've had this argument before. I think Naish have got it right, and you think Starbosrd have (or had).
So depends on the board.
...
We can do 27 as well if someone wants no worries all they have to do is ask their local shop really any width is a option if someone wants that something different.
good answer
True. Local shops tend to know local needs.
Post by: Area 10 on July 27, 2017, 11:19:54 AM
This has the causal relation the wrong way round IMO. The people winning on narrow boards are doing so because they are young and fit and have good balance (partly due to low body fat, and practice). If you put them on a board an inch or more wider they wouldn't suddenly stop winning. They have narrow boards because they are good; they aren't good because they have narrow boards.
I'm the exception. I have (some) narrow boards and I am crap. This is how I know that narrow boards don't make you fast :)
Post by: JEG on July 27, 2017, 02:36:04 PM
I think the widths should be 23, 24.5, 26 & 28
Post by: ukgm on August 03, 2017, 01:52:23 AM
Also, some french guys have done a comparison with the 2017 vs 2018 for the 12'6 length: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57IwDxLO-Hc
Post by: supthecreek on August 03, 2017, 07:08:14 AM
Wood as a skin is also interesting due to it's shock absorbing and vibration dampening properties. It isn't brittle and can take a few bangs before it breaks. Of course it depends how thick you make that skin.
I'd love to hear Bert and Tino's experiences with it.
Both know classic methods of construction very well to compare it with.
Hi Yugi, I just saw this and can link a few video's that Bert just made on his construction tech in general.
These vids are based on his surfboard (SUP very similar) construction, but he has put all of his experience and knowledge into adapting his construction tech into the Sunova Raceboard line.
I think if anyone is truly interested in "why" they uses this particular construction, these vids will give a great insight into Bert's complex knowledge and curiosity gained over decades of board making.
Sunova has been using wood sandwich construction for decades for a reason.... lots of reasons
NOT because it's cheap, cool looking, easy to use.....or a marketing ploy.
Anyway..... worth a look for anyone truly interested in "Why wood?"
They just produced a lot of vids covering ALL aspects of his construction.... here are just a few
Full disclosure:
Sunova is a Standup Zone site sponsor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-pxKge8iA4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXZWF6L--qM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=884zltcnl00&t=3s
Post by: Eagle on August 03, 2017, 08:15:56 AM
Yeah kinda looks more angular than expected. With his Sprint he has a good combo for flats and chop. Larry seems to be adapting quite well to narrower boards.
The 24.5AS boof actually floats quite high vs the low slung 23. Upwind and DW my 23 pearls easy but the 24.5 not at all.
The 24.5 feels like a big platform vs the 23 and both Sprints.
So did that look like a new AS to you too ?
Not sure if making the side topsides more vertical is better -> but flattening the tail triple concaves should help stabilize the 23 a considerable amount. If I were to change anything it would be just that. Should make the 23 less jittery when stepping back and not so tippy tippy so easier to put the power down and ride in general. That should be a good incremental change to add some more stability. Will be interesting to see how speed and glide are affected.
Post by: JEG on August 03, 2017, 03:00:52 PM
Post by: SUPflorida on August 03, 2017, 07:26:52 PM
Post by: PT Woody on August 03, 2017, 08:26:44 PM
Interesting...when looking at the two boards it appears if you drew the same two red triangles on the bottom of the board on the left...and then sanded the area flat within the triangles (from red line to red line) you would get the identical bottom of the board on the right...not close...but dead on identical. Which effectively gives it more tail rocker.
It's interesting that last year's radical design feature was a pronounced concave at the tail whereas this year's radical design feature is effectively removing most of the pronounced concave at the tail. I look forward to paddling this new one.
Post by: ukgm on August 04, 2017, 01:53:54 AM
Also comes in a 25 width. Good for us big guys..........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb4WI0F93aQ
Post by: Chilly on August 04, 2017, 05:57:34 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXC7Zfrdu_U&sns=em
Post by: Area 10 on August 04, 2017, 06:28:54 AM
The ACE unlimited looks cool18'x26.75"??? Now I'm listening! Wow, that would be a downwind monster that anyone could handle. Probably make a great distance tourer too. Is that a fixed fin, or does the UL come with a rudder?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXC7Zfrdu_U&sns=em
Bravo Starboard.
Post by: Chilly on August 04, 2017, 06:38:28 AM
Post by: Eagle on August 04, 2017, 09:31:13 AM
Post by: Eagle on August 04, 2017, 09:34:20 AM
The SB race line-up is actually quite solid for 2018 and will be interesting to see if they can maintain or better 2017 race results. Even with a very high wind catching nose design many scoff at -> many racers are able to win. That says something and enough for SB to not mess much with what has worked ok for them.
https://youtu.be/bhyxbnB_Y7c
Post by: Eagle on August 04, 2017, 09:37:28 AM
Def for more flat conditions the Sprint is by far the right weapon of choice over the AS or Ace. SB is sticking with 21.5 again this year. But the AS has dropped to 22.5 -> and the Ace down to 23.5 once again. Widths galore in small increments from very narrow to moderate for racing.
Post by: viatormundi on August 04, 2017, 10:56:53 AM
Post by: Luc Benac on August 04, 2017, 11:20:25 AM
1) the ACE UL
2) the bottom tail of the AS and Sprint look good
But they still have a lot of volume.....too much for my taste.
ps: the Ace 14x27 also look really nice....
Post by: Eagle on August 04, 2017, 06:10:26 PM
They seemed to go one step too far in 2017 by adding the chamfered edges and even deeper concave. That lead to more instability which probs reduced overall race speed for many top racers. If Connor is tippy during a race on an AS23 -> then the board is way too tippy. They must of had a lot of racer feedback this past year. By flattening out the back end -> the 2018 AS and Sprint should be back close to the stability of the 2016 version. Whether the 2016 2017 or 2018 is faster overall than the others is hard to accurately measure.
But in order to sell more new boards and generate profit they need to come up with changes each year to stimulate bs hype and sales. So have concluded years ago that not necessarily newer is always better. Instead sometimes what you have is perfectly spot on the money already. ;)
Post by: Area 10 on August 04, 2017, 06:18:39 PM
Post by: Eagle on August 04, 2017, 06:58:36 PM
So for flat the Sprint is a still a real big advantage. In mixed and BOP the AS is better handling surf with the nose popping back up a lot faster and cleaner. The Ace actually has included a narrower 22.5 version as well for 2018. Based on my demo on the older 23.5 version Ace -> that 22.5 Ace might be close in stability to the 2016 AS23.
Mega number of width choices for 2018. Should have no complaints from the peanut gallery. But think that SB wants serious racers to get all 3! :)
Post by: ukgm on August 05, 2017, 01:05:19 AM
With the Sprint being marketed as now suitable for BOP and ocean, and the All Star tweaks to make it more flat water friendly, the lines between these two boards are getting very blurred. Would someone buy both? How will you decide between them? And with the Ace taking the "real choppy and downwind" position in the line-up this squeezes the All Star even more. Is their intention that if you can afford two boards you'd go for the Sprint and Ace, and if you can only afford one you'd go for the All Star?
I love the look of their new range. A lot of choice and flexibility. The sprint would seem to be the optimum choice for most races here in the UK. I do wonder though that you'll still see the pro's on the AS pretty much 99% of the time......
Post by: Area 10 on August 05, 2017, 01:39:11 AM
Hmm...dunno - might depend where you are... what are the biggest European races? Paris, 11 cities, Lost Mills? At all three you'd want to be on the Sprint, wouldn't you (assuming it drafts well).With the Sprint being marketed as now suitable for BOP and ocean, and the All Star tweaks to make it more flat water friendly, the lines between these two boards are getting very blurred. Would someone buy both? How will you decide between them? And with the Ace taking the "real choppy and downwind" position in the line-up this squeezes the All Star even more. Is their intention that if you can afford two boards you'd go for the Sprint and Ace, and if you can only afford one you'd go for the All Star?
I love the look of their new range. A lot of choice and flexibility. The sprint would seem to be the optimum choice for most races here in the UK. I do wonder though that you'll still see the pro's on the AS pretty much 99% of the time......
Post by: SUPflorida on August 05, 2017, 06:00:18 AM
It appears from the chatter every year that it's been very difficult to get race boards when they had fewer offerings...has something radically changed in their supply chain management? Will this turn into a custom order only type affair?
I still find it interesting from an historical perspective that a splinter of the Surf Culture has so embraced the "pop out" that their father/grandfathers generation wouldn't be caught dead on. Granted the construction materials & methods are light years apart, but still the mystique of the custom built board doesn't seem to have the traction in SUP like it has with surfing....at least in the past. My take is CAD & CNC changed the Surf landscape forever and there is no turning back. But...a lot of the custom boys have this tech too. Even one backyard builder we know of 😏
In conclusion, its great they have winning designs...bought some of the best talent to race and promote their boards...have a model and size for 98% of the paddlers out there...but if it's not readily available, and priced too high for people to afford, it's just another carrot on a stick marketing campaign. Here's to hoping they can deliver on all these cool offering.
Post by: Luc Benac on August 05, 2017, 06:34:50 AM
One thing to design a board and put in a catalog with all the choices SUP forum junky,s say they want...it's an entirely different matter to have enough of these boards produced where people can actually buy exactly the model/length/width and now for the women, color, they want. Let alone demo one.
It appears from the chatter every year that it's been very difficult to get race boards when they had fewer offerings...has something radically changed in their supply chain management? Will this turn into a custom order only type affair?
I still find it interesting from an historical perspective that a splinter of the Surf Culture has so embraced the "pop out" that their father/grandfathers generation wouldn't be caught dead on. Granted the construction materials & methods are light years apart, but still the mystique of the custom built board doesn't seem to have the traction in SUP like it has with surfing....at least in the past. My take is CAD & CNC changed the Surf landscape forever and there is no turning back. But...a lot of the custom boys have this tech too. Even one backyard builder we know of 😏
In conclusion, its great they have winning designs...bought some of the best talent to race and promote their boards...have a model and size for 98% of the paddlers out there...but if it's not readily available, and priced too high for people to afford, it's just another carrot on a stick marketing campaign. Here's to hoping they can deliver on all these cool offering.
That is a good point. For most brands here, outside of a couple of models and size, it is difficult to find a board in stock at a retailer.
So if you need to pre-order a board from a big brand paying full retail price and waiting several months, what is the appeal compare to a smaller brand choosing a semi-custom or full custom.
I am always surprised when some brands are advocating selling only through a retailer and supporting the store, when the only thing you can do at a store is pre-order for next season, or sometime put an individual order with no saving on shipping. I quite frankly do not see the sale of most board models through a store as relevant for most advanced paddlers. The argument that a store owner will know better what board I need is baloney. I have usually done more research on a board than most of them. Just compare the review provided by forum member to store reviews available on-line and in most case there is no comparison....
Even distributors have to edge their bet and will not bring atypical models in the container(s) they have on order.
ps: I perfectly understand the difficulty for a store to make money carrying big inventory so no blame on them. I just thing that this model has become irrelevant and just put an unnecessary layer in many cases
Post by: Eagle on August 05, 2017, 11:36:56 AM
It has been that way for years already at the narrow top end race spectrum.
The difference btwn a 26 and 24.5 is huge. 24.5 and 23 more huge. 23 and 21.5 most huge. So how do you choose without testing it out OTW? Can be a very expensive crap shoot and waste of money. We are very fortunate in Vancouver to have a number of racers -> so can try out their boards and paddles and fins. Can say without ever testing would never have considered riding and buying a 23 or even trying a 21.5 wide board. Most sponsored racers here are fantastic and very friendly ambassadors of the brand they represent.
If you do ever have a chance to try one of these special narrow race boards and can balance ok -> there is no turning back. It makes paddling anything less efficient feel like a complete pile of crap. Every board we own feels like crap vs that 21.5 Sprint. With even more stability on that 2018 Sprint -> it should make that board even more appealing. But give us wind and waves or open ocean slop and chop -> we will opt for stability every time ie. Bullet V2 or M14. In that way SUP is always hugely entertaining and fun for us. Never boring. Always a fantastic challenge or major fun DW.
From our understanding talking to the local retailer and SB distributor here -> expect a long wait for boards Connor and Boothy ride as they are always in high demand and very short supply.
Post by: Area 10 on August 05, 2017, 01:15:34 PM
Really, this era is the birth of the local custom board maker. Probably the numerous options apparently available are aimed at pulling the rug from under that or from brands like Sunova who run a "built to order" semi-custom service.
The local shaper can usually build a better made board, cheaper than the big brands' RRP. Once local shapers are all skilled at CAD/CNC and have methods of scanning boards, maybe making details via 3D printers, what role will there be for big foreign factories like Cobra? Instead of North American/European designs being ripped off by, or built by, by East Asian ones, the designs built in East Asian factories will be made cheaper locally in N America/Europe. We will have come full circle.
I recently bought a custom SUP. I am shocked at how much better built it is than the so-called "premium brands". It is hard to now consider spending so much on a big brand, fragile, chip-prone, filler-laden and more expensive piece of cheap packing foam that might take 6 months to arrive, and (if my past experiences are anything to go by), do so dinged, or with a handle misplaced, or some other imperfection.
Btw, how is it that the Starboard fans here were claiming last year that the tail concaves made the boards super-stable, but now you all seem to be claiming that removing them for 2018 will make them more stable? :)
Post by: Luc Benac on August 05, 2017, 01:25:06 PM
I recently bought a custom SUP. I am shocked at how much better built it is than the so-called "premium brands". It is hard to now consider spending so much on a big brand, fragile, chip-prone, filler-laden and more expensive piece of cheap packing foam that might take 6 months to arrive, and (if my past experiences are anything to go by), do so dinged, or with a handle misplaced, or some other imperfection.
Supuk to move to the Canadian West Coast.......nicer weather, great scenery, potential nice customers, micro-brewery, fresh salmon and halibut.......and we do not really have a local shaper. Everybody is SoCal or US East Coast, a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng way for shipping a board...
Post by: Luc Benac on August 05, 2017, 01:28:52 PM
Really, this era is the birth of the local custom board maker. Probably the numerous options apparently available are aimed at pulling the rug from under that or from brands like Sunova who run a "built to order" semi-custom service.
Yes if I had to replace my Ace-GT (cross fingers, touch wood that i don't) I would be discussing with our local Sunova rep. I strongly doubt that I could get a new Ace UL short of selling my car....
Post by: Eagle on August 05, 2017, 02:22:38 PM
Most every online and posted review concurred that the 2017 was less stable than the 2016. But the original 2016 triple concave was a game changer in more stability vs the 2015 design. As an AS23 owner -> would fully agree with that assessment. Personally know for a fact firsthand OTW that the narrower AS23 is more stable by far than the Race 25 -> or even Sprint 25 of past. That is amazing considering a 2" drop in width.
So that is why my position is to simply keep what you have if you like it. As chasing a moving design target is risky and can be very expensive and a complete waste of time. The new design may be worse and you will be moving backwards. But without trying you would never know the differences and true answer. So we always demo to be sure. Otherwise expect a good chance of buyer remorse. ;)
Post by: ukgm on August 05, 2017, 11:14:53 PM
Post by: PT Woody on August 06, 2017, 02:26:20 AM
The ACE unlimited looks cool18'x26.75"??? Now I'm listening! Wow, that would be a downwind monster that anyone could handle. Probably make a great distance tourer too. Is that a fixed fin, or does the UL come with a rudder?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXC7Zfrdu_U&sns=em
Bravo Starboard.
In the video, from the 23 sec mark to 35 sec, that's definitely a tiller in front of Connor's right foot. Looks interesting too. No centring batten. They must have it at the rudder end just as Pono Bill has always said would be the better way to design it.
Post by: Eagle on August 06, 2017, 11:07:16 AM
Post by: Area 10 on August 06, 2017, 01:05:55 PM
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on August 09, 2017, 09:04:35 AM
And I'd like to know if the loss of stability going from the 2016 to the 2017 AllStar has been put back into the 2018 AllStar.
And I'd like to get some unbiased testers' opinion on that "2-3 board lengths faster every 50 strokes" statement about the 2018 AllStar.
Post by: Area 10 on August 09, 2017, 01:54:34 PM
And I'd like to get some unbiased testers' opinion on that "2-3 board lengths faster every 50 strokes" statement about the 2018 AllStar.I'll save everyone the trouble. It is almost certainly total BS. Every year around this time Starboard or some SB fanboy makes some ludicrous claim for the performance advantage of the forthcoming board. The reality IMO is actually very dull: In the absence of real or useful advances in build techniques or cost reductions, they (and virtually everyone else) make fairly minor advances in design that are so small as to be hard to detect using rigorous scientific protocols. And then they let cognitive dissonance and the Emperor's New Clothes effect do the rest. Welcome to the optimism bias:
https://www.ted.com/talks/tali_sharot_the_optimism_bias/up-next
Post by: Luc Benac on August 09, 2017, 02:07:03 PM
ps: we have already had narrower is faster no ?????
Post by: JEG on August 09, 2017, 02:40:59 PM
I'm sure a lot of us find out once you purchased the thing/s whether good or bad
And also your preference ::)
so far the word stability and pour board design has cost me a few boards :-\
Post by: Area 10 on August 10, 2017, 02:37:24 AM
1. Improvement in build quality, especially durability.
2. A sizeable reduction in price.
When a local shaper can build a custom board better, and cheaper, than the big brands can sell you a factory-made Thailand production-spec board, then you've got to ask if customers are being well-served by the big brands. In real terms, SUPs seem to cost more now than they did 7-10 years ago.
*In case you aren't familiar with 1970s UK TV adverts, here is one that created "Carlos Fandango" as shorthand for a certain type of device marketing, and a certain type of buyer who will be taken in by it:
https://youtu.be/nqqZ28m8uCo
Co-incidentally, I've just been told that the 2019 All Star will be named the "Carlos Fandango Special Edition" ;)
Post by: yugi on August 10, 2017, 07:00:42 AM
'nuff said
Post by: Eagle on August 10, 2017, 10:13:02 AM
Haha! Sounds like a big load of bs and hype. Who made that click bait comment?
Post by: Eagle on August 10, 2017, 10:20:45 AM
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1653545444?zebratwo=CJ
And Bart stated this.
"With 500 racers one of the bigger events of the year. The Starboard Sprint 14'x23" proofed the right choice for Larry Cain (1st place) and I."
Personally for flat water my preference would be the 2017 Sprint with cutout. That board was efficient and easy to power up. But certainly Mistral and Nelo etc also look to have clean efficient shapes. So a number of options. My tubby Dom feels like a slug comparatively. Perfect on a small flat lake with afternoon ripples for a bit of breezy fun.
Post by: pdxmike on August 10, 2017, 11:12:09 AM
"2-3 board lengths faster every 50 strokes" for the 2018 AS.If you figure someone races at 60 strokes/minute, and wins the race in an hour, that's 3,600 strokes. Say they get a 2.5 board length advantage per 50 strokes, so that's 35' per 50 strokes, and 3,600 strokes divided by 50 = 72, so the advantage equals 72 x 35', equals 2,520 feet, which equals .48 miles. So you'd beat an equal competitor on a normal board by half a mile.
Haha! Sounds like a big load of bs and hype. Who made that click bait comment?
Post by: Eagle on August 10, 2017, 11:25:41 AM
Post by: Area 10 on August 10, 2017, 12:16:56 PM
Yeah sounds like a load of bs that will be hard to back up. But enquiring minds want to know -> who would be that brazen to spew that?Good question. Where did this originate? Carlos Fandango himself? ;)
Post by: Eagle on August 10, 2017, 03:06:21 PM
But FWS def check out that Sprint and let us know how you make out. If you dare take your RP23 in a crazy rough water race -> then the 23 or even 21.5 Sprint should be fine for balance.
I know it has taken me around 9 months -> but am finally starting to get the hang my AS23 in AW conditions. Was just out and am always amazed how easy that cutting boof pearls upwind. Everyone talks about how high volume the AS is -> but def not that 2016 version in 23. It is very low slung and perfect in light wind conditions. The wind has very little effect pushing it around at all. So bs on that.
Would speculate to say the 2018 AS is still not as stable as the 2016 even with a flattened underside at the tail. The chamfered edges roll vs bite like my 2016. At 23 you want max stability in waves.
Post by: Area 10 on August 10, 2017, 03:24:24 PM
I go for boards with six appeal.:)
'nuff said
Post by: JEG on August 10, 2017, 03:47:07 PM
I go for boards with six appeal.
'nuff said
I paid but didnt get none ;D
Post by: mrbig on August 10, 2017, 08:11:23 PM
Aren't these the same geniuses that made my 2015 Race!
But he's just a dedicated follower of fashion..
Post by: Luc Benac on August 14, 2017, 07:48:42 AM
ps: Disclaimer. Michael Booth is a really nice guy. I have taken one of his first clinics and it was great.
Post by: ukgm on August 14, 2017, 10:38:04 AM
Post by: Luc Benac on August 14, 2017, 11:28:31 AM
Both:
- the less or non sponsored price level $3,500 + and,
- the sponsored riders price level $2,500
Post by: ukgm on August 14, 2017, 11:58:51 AM
Well here in Canada, we have started to see 2017 Starboard owners put their boards for sale.
Both:
- the less or non sponsored price level $3,500 + and,
- the sponsored riders price level $2,500
What do you think that means - that the 2017 stuff wasn't that good, the 2018 is really good or a combination thereof ?
Post by: Luc Benac on August 14, 2017, 12:15:24 PM
What do you think that means - that the 2017 stuff wasn't that good, the 2018 is really good or a combination thereof ?
Early sale attempts so not to get stuck with old 2017 boards and likely a need to put a pre-order soon.
Also some sponsored riders are going to new players like ONE sup.
Conversely, there are also quite a bit of people trying to unload their junk inflatable and other "all-around" Costco boards.
For many people after the September long week-end the season is over.
Post by: Area 10 on August 15, 2017, 08:15:59 PM
https://www.facebook.com/DistressedMullet/videos/1531555230245612/
Could this be the greatest rival for the All Star/Naish Maliko/NSP/Falcon etc?
Post by: Eagle on August 15, 2017, 08:45:36 PM
Post by: ukgm on August 16, 2017, 03:35:12 AM
If you can balance fine on that 25 Sprint -> it should be blazing quick vs your 26 Maliko. That 2017 Sprint 21.5 was no joke. Wicked efficient and stable enough I could sprint at max power on flat in the ocean.
I have some options but my current feeling is that I'll opt for the narrowest allwater board I can handle. I'm of the opinion that narrowness is of greater priority to overall speed in a bunch race than a long gliding flatwater specific board (that would likely have to be a touch wider due to the reduced stability).
Post by: Eagle on August 16, 2017, 11:24:36 AM
But give me a flat lake or one with small ripples and that 21.5 would smoke and be my choice. Will be interesting which brand and board you go with for 2018. There seems to be more narrow AW boards available nowadays. But that Mistral XL still seems like a good race board for 95 kgs utilizing a dropped deck at 26. ;)
"WHEN STEEVIE TEIHOTAATA (85KG) WON EVERY STAGE OF THE 2015 11 CITIES EVENT THE ONLY FAULT HE COULD FIND WAS THAT HE WANTED IMPROVED DECK DRAINAGE AND A LITTLE MORE VOLUME TO COPE WITH THE ROUGHER WATER AT THE START OF EACH RACE LEG AND FOR WINDS INCREASED AND THE WATERS BECAME MORE CHOPPY.
https://www.mistral.com/blog/2016/10/new-2017-vortex-xl
Post by: ukgm on August 16, 2017, 12:29:25 PM
Yeah a narrow AW board is a good bet for a one board quiver. Personally could not use that 21.5 Sprint in my normal ocean conditions. It would just slam and pearl every wave and roll more than I could easily handle.
But give me a flat lake or one with small ripples and that 21.5 would smoke and be my choice. Will be interesting which brand and board you go with for 2018. There seems to be more narrow AW boards available nowadays. But that Mistral XL still seems like a good race board for 95 kgs utilizing a dropped deck at 26. ;)
"WHEN STEEVIE TEIHOTAATA (85KG) WON EVERY STAGE OF THE 2015 11 CITIES EVENT THE ONLY FAULT HE COULD FIND WAS THAT HE WANTED IMPROVED DECK DRAINAGE AND A LITTLE MORE VOLUME TO COPE WITH THE ROUGHER WATER AT THE START OF EACH RACE LEG AND FOR WINDS INCREASED AND THE WATERS BECAME MORE CHOPPY.
https://www.mistral.com/blog/2016/10/new-2017-vortex-xl
Due to an upcoming big bike race, I trimmed my weight down to 89kg ;-)
Post by: Eagle on August 16, 2017, 12:45:58 PM
Dropping 6 kilos should really help your acceleration and make it easier powering up any inclines. Pretty soon racers will be calling you -> ukgm the skinny guy. :)
Post by: Area 10 on August 16, 2017, 01:28:36 PM
IMO nose shape, rail shape, rocker, and volume distribution are more important to speed and handling than width (within reason). People just focus on width because they don't really understand the others (and I'm not sure anyone does understand it all terribly well).If you can balance fine on that 25 Sprint -> it should be blazing quick vs your 26 Maliko. That 2017 Sprint 21.5 was no joke. Wicked efficient and stable enough I could sprint at max power on flat in the ocean.
I have some options but my current feeling is that I'll opt for the narrowest allwater board I can handle. I'm of the opinion that narrowness is of greater priority to overall speed in a bunch race than a long gliding flatwater specific board (that would likely have to be a touch wider due to the reduced stability).
The board that you feel most comfortable on is probably the fastest for you in real-world race conditions (other than short sprints perhaps) IMO.
Post by: ukgm on August 16, 2017, 01:58:30 PM
Haha! Good on ya. I on the other hand have been trying to put on weight. Slowly but surely am gaining muscle mass. Interestingly am moving towards my original weight from 3+ years ago. Still a ways off -> but would be ok with that if it was all new muscle.
Dropping 6 kilos should really help your acceleration and make it easier powering up any inclines. Pretty soon racers will be calling you -> ukgm the skinny guy. :)
I hope so. I'm competing in my age group in the time trial at the upcoming cycling world champs. If I don't shift another pound or two, I won't be fitting in the skin suit !
Post by: Luc Benac on August 16, 2017, 02:10:31 PM
If I don't shift another pound or two, I won't be fitting in the skin suit !
Then you will be joining a good number of the cycling population that we see on the road that seems to ignore that Spandex is not your friend anymore.... :-)
Post by: Eagle on August 16, 2017, 02:43:02 PM
Post by: Eagle on August 17, 2017, 11:51:00 AM
I'd sure like to try the 21.5 Sprint in a flatwater race.
And I'd like to know if the loss of stability going from the 2016 to the 2017 AllStar has been put back into the 2018 AllStar.
And I'd like to get some unbiased testers' opinion on that "2-3 board lengths faster every 50 strokes" statement about the 2018 AllStar.
This is what SB actually says. Still quite a statement but not 2 or 3 board lengths. Am used to now SB making claims year to year -> then kinda going back to something else. A little flip here -> a little flop there. Like 2017 deeper concave is better -> to now saying shallow is better. Even still 2/3 of a board length is still a bold statement and SB should back that up with some independently validated test results. Would not hold your breath.
Post by: Eagle on August 17, 2017, 12:26:15 PM
Post by: ukgm on August 18, 2017, 01:39:45 AM
I'd sure like to try the 21.5 Sprint in a flatwater race.
And I'd like to know if the loss of stability going from the 2016 to the 2017 AllStar has been put back into the 2018 AllStar.
And I'd like to get some unbiased testers' opinion on that "2-3 board lengths faster every 50 strokes" statement about the 2018 AllStar.
This is what SB actually says. Still quite a statement but not 2 or 3 board lengths. Am used to now SB making claims year to year -> then kinda going back to something else. A little flip here -> a little flop there. Like 2017 deeper concave is better -> to now saying shallow is better. Even still 2/3 of a board length is still a bold statement and SB should back that up with some independently validated test results. Would not hold your breath.
They won't do that. I've suggested it to a few brands as a marketing strapline but there is a feeling that (even with these race boards) that art and emotion is more attractive than science and hard numbers. (By the way, my own testing has been peer reviewed and is in press to be published in a scientific journal before years end.)
(By the way Eagle, I've just had a secondhand 2017 24.5 Allstar delivered for me to test).
Post by: ukgm on August 18, 2017, 01:42:02 AM
Post by: Eagle on August 18, 2017, 08:45:08 AM
But still my pref would be Sprint 23 or 21.5 for flatwater vs an AS22.5 any day. Thos 2 boards feel like custom made for me. The sharp nose design of the Sprint is simply perfection for flat. The splashy AS has a bit too much rocker to be really efficient me thinks. But no doubt it is fast as FWS has demonstrated -> just the Sprint is simply faster and has mega glide efficiency.
My take is the 2016 AS23 and 2017 Sprint 21.5 designs were done right as is. No need to deviate from those proven race concepts. But fully understand SB tweaks year to year in their quest to sell "new" boards in hopes of generating profits.
Post by: ukgm on August 18, 2017, 09:36:07 AM
I know that 24.5AS quite well. Will be interesting to hear your comments after testing. Was not exactly my cup of tea nor sized correctly for me -> but can understand its appeal for certain top racers. For me it felt like a big big volume board vs my very low slung 23.
But still my pref would be Sprint 23 or 21.5 for flatwater vs an AS22.5 any day. Thos 2 boards feel like custom made for me. The sharp nose design of the Sprint is simply perfection for flat. The splashy AS has a bit too much rocker to be really efficient me thinks.
Well I put a couple of hours tempo paddle on it today and obliterated my upstream and downstream training time records so it got a thumbs up from me. I found it initially a bit wobbly due to most of my last boards being far higher in primary stability. However, once I'd put 10 mins in and learned to trust the secondary stability, I was really impressed. The nose splash isn't pretty and it isn't great upwind but the higher volume suited me. It's also the narrowest width I've ever paddled in anger so I was amazed I could just jump on it and go at full power. I'd be tempted to try the 23 too.
I also agree the sprints would obviously be faster in a straight line in isolation but most domestic races aren't in clean or virgin water and you need something that can handle a little more chaos on most of our start lines. As a result, I think a AS 22.5 may well be an attractive option for some medium weight paddlers. If I were buying from new for 2018 and going to use everywhere, the 23.5 would be very tempting.
Post by: Eagle on August 18, 2017, 10:38:31 AM
But SB adding more volume to give the 2017 AS more pop in waves vs spearing like my iteration -> was the right move from a racing perspective. Do know what you mean about wash and mass starts. So certainly understand the concern. But if you can pull away from that mess in shape and dry -> you should place high on say a 25 Sprint.
Would suspect you should try the 2018 AS23.5 if the 24.5 feels ok and you are setting training PRs. Makes sense the 2018 with that flattened tail should stabilize the initial tip more and be even easier to handle for you. The narrowing width was a big noticeable speed factor for me. Imagine going full out like Connor and Boothy on a 21.5 spear. Big big speed.
Post by: Eagle on August 18, 2017, 11:35:59 AM
http://www.chattajack.com/course-records