Standup Zone Forum

General Category => Foil SUP => Topic started by: dns on April 06, 2017, 09:16:23 AM

Title: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: dns on April 06, 2017, 09:16:23 AM
Looking to mod a board and take the plunge, but trying to figure out a mounting solution. Slingshot, GoFoil, and a couple others use the Tuttle box while Lift, Horue, and Moses favor tracks and plate mounts.

I'm kind of favoring the plate mount so I can also use the same setup for low wind kiting, but is there any significant advantage of one over the other?
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: TonyGring on April 06, 2017, 10:46:35 AM
I have a Tuttle. Friends have mixture of plate and Tuttle.  No advantage over either from what I've heard / seen.  More important is board length and mount placement.  Good luck !
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: PonoBill on April 06, 2017, 11:26:43 AM
I think the structure of your board and how you mount a plate vs tuttle has a lot to do with which might potentially last longer.  A complete answer is long, but might not make much difference since most people won't really know which way their board is stronger. A standard plate mount might rely on the skin of your board being robust, while a tuttle being more of a through mount but with worse leverage properties relies on the overall strength of the board.
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: supthecreek on April 06, 2017, 01:27:45 PM
My friend Paul used the stick on plate to attach his brand new foil to a brand new SUP
Hit a rock on the 1st paddle.... entire foil fell off and sank. He couldn't find it.

Later, someone saw it.... he dove in without a wetsuit (in New England) and recovered his gear

He came up with a leash to keep the foil from sinking if it falls off again.
Paul had no problems during his 1st, 2 hour, SUP surf foil session. He did pretty well, as a matter of fact.

What do you think of the "leash" idea for "stick on gear?"
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 06, 2017, 02:37:03 PM
Tuttle is better if you know exactly where you want it.

Dual finboxes win when you need to move the foil slightly to accommodate different foils, lifting different.

I've seen dual finboxes leak on MHL boards.

Tuttle is stronger being connected to deck.
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: Beasho on April 06, 2017, 02:45:30 PM
Tuttle is stronger being connected to deck.

What happens when the Tuttle rig "Hits a Rock?"  Hopefully you just elegantly slip off the front of the board and come up smiling. 
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: dns on April 06, 2017, 05:15:43 PM
I'm definitely NOT a fan of the stick on mount. Even if it doesn't rip loose it's definitely going to work the skin of the board loose from the EPS foam eventually and probably peel off half the underside.

I do want a review of his Lift Foil though.

Doing dual tracks, again as EPS is relatively weak, I'd inlet a block of high density foam, perhaps with a couple wood micro stringers, and bond that all the way through to the deck.

May be a moot point though. On kiteforum a guy had a pretty good argument for the GoFoil design with much more rounded edges as his friend got tumbled in a wave (with another companies wing) and got his face layed open from the sharp edges. Nothing is truly safe, but I'd rather be tumbled with a baseball bat than blender blades.
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 06, 2017, 05:43:33 PM
Tuttle is stronger being connected to deck.

What happens when the Tuttle rig "Hits a Rock?"  Hopefully you just elegantly slip off the front of the board and come up smiling.

It's repairable in the worst cases. Around here, that's hitting a manatee at full tilt boogie (30 mph or more).
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: surfcowboy on April 07, 2017, 02:35:06 AM
I've been considering how to do the fin box mounts with a chinook-type deck connection and it almost seems the same trouble as a Tuttle. Probably start a thread on this but I think the HD foam is a start for sure. I think I'd want a 12" x 15" bottom to deck cassette installed at least on a non-production board. Or then there's the idea of a sort of poor man's sandwich around the boxes on the bottom where you'd glass under and over a 1/4" layer of HD foam around the plate as well.

DW, no issues with a Tuttle in a custom board's relatively thin skin?
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: SUPflorida on April 07, 2017, 05:10:29 AM
I am kinda surprised no one has brought up the option of 8. lb density pour foam around the attachment point...that is... cutting out a section of the EPS and replacing it with 8 lb foam for mounting your box/attachment point ... whatever flavor you choose.
I use to use that sometimes instead of divinycell with my windsurf mast boxes....never had a problem with of them. It makes it easy to fill a whole cavity with out voids, bonds tenaciously to pretty much anything and everything..and is closed cell...take note I'm talking 8 lb not 2 lb floatation foam they use in boats that does absorb water readily (despite their claims)....and is really weak.
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: PonoBill on April 07, 2017, 05:46:44 AM
Are you routing the foam after it sets? I've found the stuff hard to work with. Catches the bit and tears, and it won't sand well.
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: SUPflorida on April 07, 2017, 06:54:13 AM
Pono...yes, mask everything with plastic around the opening as this stuff sticks like you won't believe...including your hands (goes without saying to use gloves). Cut out the area you want to replace> mix and pour it in the clean hole> sand it flush with 8" 40 gritt disk close to flush> fine tune with hand sanding block> Route to fit your box>laminate over to taste.
I know this works for the loads that are exerted on a windsurf mast track or fin box...but someone with more engineering creds would have to sign off if it could stand up to the forces generated by a foil.
It works fine for a hole a couple inches bigger than a standard box in all directions... it may not be the best way when having to reinforce an area 12"X15" or more. The divinycell sheet transferring the loads over a larger area of bottom would seem to be the better option for that.

It is a great way to repair a conventional fin box issue.
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: PonoBill on April 07, 2017, 07:16:00 AM
I have a couple of gallons of the stuff. I use it primarily for making custom fitted seats for race cars. Mix it, pour it into a double plastic garden trash bag that's been taped to the upper edge of the seat, let it foam a bit and have the driver sit on it. That's how geezers like me handle cornering G's.

Yes, I know what a bitch it is to clean up. That's why the double bag. Only had to learn that lesson once. I got it in my hair once.
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: Beasho on April 07, 2017, 07:53:42 AM
Rectavit:  This is the recommended glue.

I was asking Stretch about the structural properties of Gorilla Glue, which he turned me on to 10 years ago.  I specifically asked if you could just glue in a box with Gorilla Glue rather than heavy pours of Epoxy.  He 'suggested' that Gorilla Glue may get compromised by extended exposure to moisture.  However this was the stuff he was using to glue in Tuttle boxes used to mount foils for Peter Trow.

Aka - Route a hole, insert Tuttle Box and use this expanding polyurethane glue to bond and fill gaps.

Hard to find this stuff.  Please help if you know where to get it.
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: Beasho on April 07, 2017, 07:58:38 AM
Here is a clip of Peter Trow on the Stretch board, filmed by Ian Boyd of all people.  Whats up with all ex-windsurfers, Dasher, Matt Schweitzer, Ian Boyd . . becoming film makers?

https://vimeo.com/199726988 
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: surfinJ on April 07, 2017, 08:16:36 AM
More cool carving to tempt the uninitiated.

And a nice cameo by some sort of an aggressive standup guy.  Dropped in on by a foil, get over it.
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: PonoBill on April 07, 2017, 10:46:52 AM
Here is a clip of Peter Trow on the Stretch board, filmed by Ian Boyd of all people.  Whats up with all ex-windsurfers, Dasher, Matt Schweitzer, Ian Boyd . . becoming film makers?

I don't know about the rest of them, but the Matt Schweitzer that is a filmmaker is Matty--Zane's brother--not Matt, his dad.  That SUP paddler could easily have been me.  I got in the way of (can't remember his name) a foiler at Cardiff a few times. He could easily go around me, so it was not that big a deal.
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: surfinJ on April 07, 2017, 11:19:08 PM
Shooting your board at another surfers head is an ancient aggressive move in the surf zone. Maybe it was an accident but I didn't see any effort to avoid the boards trajectory.
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: blueplanetsurf on April 27, 2019, 07:56:28 PM
We finally have the Foil Strongbox available for DIY'ers.  Both Tuttle and Plate mount in a strong one piece construction that's easy to install into a custom foil board or retrofit.
Please watch the video for details:
https://youtu.be/1pIipnNehic
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: Beasho on April 28, 2019, 02:02:01 PM
We finally have the Foil Strongbox available for DIY'ers.  Both Tuttle and Plate mount in a strong one piece construction that's easy to install into a custom foil board or retrofit.
Please watch the video for details:

Great Video!  This deserves its own post. 

I am also glad that Gorilla Glue is getting its due coverage.  Too many old-school surfboard repair people are still using epoxy with micro-balloons.  The epoxy with balloons is heavy, brittle and DOES NOT FILL GAPS.

The Gorilla glue is a great way to build a high density foam matrix that sticks everywhere and will tear things apart before it fails. 
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: WindJunkie on April 28, 2019, 03:29:43 PM
I started on a tuttle and now using a track.  The main thing I didn't like about the tuttle is that it would work loose and make noise.  It was a worry and an annoyance that I didn't like dealing with.  I like the idea of being able to move the track mount but never have.  It's easier just to move my back foot.  The downsides of the track is that the board gets a little indented and or scratched from the plate and it's probably not as strong.
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: starman on April 28, 2019, 04:24:56 PM
If you are looking for Rectavit Structan Polyurethane it is sold in the US under the name Grizzly Glue Structan.

The MSDS data shows its the same stuff made by Rectavint.

https://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-jgnuwblrjb/content/pdf-files/Grizzly-Express-SDS.PDF

However it doesn't seem like it's recommended for glueing Foil mounts to a board:

"However, Grizzly Glues should not be used where strength is needed in gaps that appear in load-bearing or on stressed structures such as laminated beams."

But so what as I'm pretty sure fluffed up Gorilla Glue isn't intended for what we are using it for.

Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: Beasho on April 28, 2019, 04:45:18 PM
If you are looking for Rectavit Structan Polyurethane it is sold in the US under the name Grizzly Glue Structan.

The MSDS data shows its the same stuff made by Rectavint.

https://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-jgnuwblrjb/content/pdf-files/Grizzly-Express-SDS.PDF

This is great to know.  STRETCH was the first to recommend using Gorilla glue on Surfboards (to me at least).

I was gluing 2 halves of surfboards together with Gorilla glue 15+ years ago.  Gorilla Glue is just 1) Higher Density and 2) Stronger than EPS foam. 

If you are gluing into EPS that is all you need. 

The warning about gaps and Gorilla Glue (Rectivit) failing comes when gluing 2 pieces of wood together.  You wouldn't want a FOAM substrate between the pieces of wood for example.  For what we are doing its great stuff. 
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: Beasho on April 28, 2019, 04:53:06 PM
Here is another trick that I use to add water to Gorilla Glue and then WHIP it up.

It will turn WHITE and provide a MUCH, MUCH more consistent density without large air-pocket voids.

This is what I use to fill divots in EPS foam and/or want a more perfect cure.  It will cure faster, and in a completely air tight, moisture free environment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgZ3A3igBbY&t=2s
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: blueplanetsurf on April 28, 2019, 11:26:42 PM
I agree with Beasho. If you look at fin box and foil box failures, it's usually the EPS foam that fails (or got melted during installation from hot epoxy).
Gorilla glue forms a very good bond between the EPS foam and high density PVC foam, fills and seals any gaps better, is lighter and does not get hot like epoxy.
Title: Re: Tuttle Box vs. Plate Mount
Post by: blueplanetsurf on August 01, 2019, 01:22:53 PM
We have been sold out of the Foil Strongbox for a while but just received a new shipment, they are now just as strong and a bit lighter than before:
https://www.blueplanetsurf.com/foil-strongbox.html