Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: PonoBill on March 20, 2017, 05:06:15 PM
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I've been thinking of doing this for some time--I like the idea if not the execution. But my paddling workouts were curtailed this winter by some carpal tunnel syndrome and while my weight hasn't changed my waist size has, so I need to pick things up a notch. I went into the local Kayak shop who are Hobie dealers to ask about availability, and they had one. So I bought it.
I haven't gotten it wet yet, but I thought I'd start a thread about this since I think it's going to head in interesting directions. Today--unboxing.
First off, it's an impressive piece of work. The board is nicely designed and the workmanship is flawless. I'd like to know the construction method, it looks molded. The deck is complex and just really looks well made. the well for the drive and the steering mechanism are very well done, very precise.
So I put everything together and realized how dorky the handlebars look. Take away the bars and it's a great looking rig. I expect to do that anyway, but now I'm even more convinced it's necessary. I plan to add handles like an elliptical machine to engage my core more, and put the steering controls on those handles.
I have to say the handlebars and their related locking system and steering mechanism are extremely well designed and built. I've come to the conclusion that the dorkiness and functionality is a marketing choice, not an engineering/design mistake. There is nothing about this board that indicates in any way that these folks lack vision or that they can't design and build anything they chose to. The elliptical machine design is obvious, and I don't expect it will take me long to design, build and perfect it. If I can see it, they can see it. I presume their marketing research tells them to make it accessible and friendly. the dorky bars do that. It doesn't look like the high-performance torture device I want to turn it into. It looks like fun for the whole family. Yup, yup, yup.
So now we fire up the lathe and the TIG and fuck that up.
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;D ;D ;D
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I think this thing is going to ROCK on a downwinder. A walker frame on a SUP. Perfect.
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Oh man, I can't wait for the pictures!
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Well, if it's a carbon fiber walker frame, we'll all have something to look forward to. Lead the way PB!
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Cant wait to watch this come together.
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I'll be interested to see how well you like it on the water. Looking forward to your review of it.
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Cool. Will be interesting to see the tweaking mods.
Every time I was out chasing carp and missed a cast last year because the fish was gone by the time I put my paddle down, grabbed my rod, and then loaded the line I thought about you and your "perfect fishing machine..." or (however that exactly went) comment about this thing. That light went off so bright when you said that it is still burning.
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Why don't you just go balls-out and hook the handlebars up to a foil on the bottom side and pump that beast into a glide pattern?
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Why don't you just go balls-out and hook the handlebars up to a foil on the bottom side and pump that beast into a glide pattern?
Already been done...fastest thing I've ever been on. I forget his name but a very interesting guy brought one to a demo that Sailworld put on 5 or so years ago. He had it mounted in an 11 or 12' all-around board and it was FAST. He didn't have a fixed foil but a setup like a whales tail under the board that flapped up and down. The motion using it was like pumping up an inflatable. He also brought it to the Challenge on the Charles and despite being in his seventies and no athlete he was right up near the front of the pack until he hit the weeds in the lagoon.....dead stop. A strong athlete with that gizmo on a race board....I bet maintaining 9 or 10mph would be easily doable.
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Pono, Re DW in the gorge:
Look at the penalty for failure dOOd
Are you sure you want to get wrapped around a handlebar on an epic high wind downwind crash?
2 videos spring to mind.
One is some guy nose planting a 14’ Bullet V2 on a downwind. (could that have been you?)
Another is this:
http://youtu.be/QVhYjbIRYAs
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I will probably hold off on a full Viento DW until I convert to elliptical-style shafts. Those will collapse against the board in the event of a nose plant (they will pivot forward freely, retained in the vert position only by a bungee). But even if I don't--no, not really worried. I'm more concerned that the flippers in the middle of the board will make it round up in every bump. Anyway, it will make a hell of a video. We'll do that right after we take the Red Dragon 22' on a downwinder. Now THAT has me a little scared. I plan to be the guy with the leash.
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call RedPaddle and get a Red Dragon DW world championships going.
The potential for epic crash footage is epic.
Not a million spots which are currently feasible for drone coverage.
I'm in. You guys got good beer there?
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We have a few. Hood River has the largest number of breweries per capita of anywhere in the world. At least that's what everyone says. Seven thousand people, ten breweries. Including Full Sail which is a national brewery, and Double Mountain which is gaining fast on Full Sail. Also lots of cider makers because of all the apples and because of Ryan's, a huge fresh juice company started by David Ryan, starting with his family's 33 acre apple orchard and a hand cider press after he was orphaned at 17 in 1977.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what kind of times we can turn on the Red Dragon. If we can stop laughing long enough, it should be pretty fast.
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I think this thing is going to ROCK on a downwinder. A walker frame on a SUP. Perfect.
You're going around the bend partner
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Nothing like shop talk that includes beer.
Maybe some CF crank arms, candy pedals and bike shoes, and some triathlon bars. OR! A drone landing pad, GoPro handle bar mounts, a beer holder and an ice chest.
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Or with a few modifications you can avoid the HR shuttle and have room for two;
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/amphibious-water-scooter
Or you could combine the board with this idea and make the walk too and from the water a lot easier. Avoid those nasty rocks at Viento;
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/u-s-navy-demonstrates-flying-platform
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I would like to drop the guts of that in my 2012 Naish 17 Glide.
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I would like to drop the guts of that in my 2012 Naish 17 Glide.
YESSS! That's the eventual plan. I'm thinking one of the wideboy SIC F14's with a somewhat rear set Hobie Mirage Drive and elliptical arms so you can get your core into it. I pedaled the thing for a half hour at Nichols today despite the rain and cold, gray weather. A tubby 12' SUP and it's the fastest I've ever gone on in flatwater on a SUP. It's a major league workout--my legs are sore. I need the elliptical bars to more efficiently engage, but jeezus this thing is fast. I need to put my speedcoach on it, but I'd guess from the bow wave shoving over the nose at full tilt that it's well over 6 mph, maybe seven.
Talldude--cooler for sure, though that might work against the fitness aspect.
Starman--could I wear a bowler?
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I think this thing is going to ROCK on a downwinder. A walker frame on a SUP. Perfect.
You're going around the bend partner
You'd love this thing. It's surprising.
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You take off on a glide and what happens with those flippers underneath? I don't think it'll round up, it'll lift up like a foil and over you go. My son has a 2 man kayak with those flippers. We did it on Lake Tahoe so I'm kinda experienced. I like the guy in sweats in this video. He looks like some retiree from Naples Florida.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=125&v=QCv1MeL0Cyo
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One video I could find that might be of interest to this topic thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow28JhJKFTQ
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You take off on a glide and what happens with those flippers underneath? I don't think it'll round up, it'll lift up like a foil and over you go. My son has a 2 man kayak with those flippers. We did it on Lake Tahoe so I'm kinda experienced. I like the guy in sweats in this video. He looks like some retiree from Naples Florida.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=125&v=QCv1MeL0Cyo
You can either tuck them more or less flat against the bottom of the board or step off the pedals and let them do whatever (I suspect they'd go flat). If they're straight up and down (both flippers centered) they'd be like a big centerboard, which would probably make the board round up. I don't know what they'll do if they're flat. One mod I might make if (when) I add these to a DW board might be recesses to get the fins flat to the bottom and a bungee or spring to pull them flat if you step off the pedals. That's what I did with my kayak version (AI) to keep the flippers from grounding when I was coming to the beach.
The most impressive things about the drive are acceleration and speed. Acceleration is instantaneous, not like paddling. You step down and the board is going at what must be close to hull speed with the first shove. I think the smooth motion will be good for my knees.
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Have fun stepping off the pedals to get into surf stance and getting back on the pedals
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Not a problem, tried it yesterday. If you lift one foot off the pedals the other drops to board level. And it's a rudder board, so I probably won't have to move as much. I think the elliptical-style handles will help a lot, though they won't offer the stability of the cruiser bars. I didn't appreciate before that putting your weight on the bars would add so much stability. Should have realized that the weight is transferred to the middle of the board.
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We're going to have to get you a new pair of those Navy issue glasses and that hat you tried on out here. Those should match your new sense of cool....... ;)....of course you know I'm going to have to try it when I finally get out there.... ::)
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Took it out again today in between rainstorms. I don't want to get wet. Gotta say, double vision doesn't do much for stability. Good thing it's pretty hard to fall off that thing or I would have been swimming. I hate to think what my other boards are going to be like. This thing needs to clear up. .
I took the PaddleCoach along. Interesting result. the stroke counter says the cadence is from 150 to 170. Those flippers feel like smooth, constant acceleration, but obviously, they aren't. Two strokes took me from 0 to 3.6-7 MPH. A steady pace is 4.5, and I can sprint easily to 5.5 and touch 6mph. Pretty impressive for a tubby 12' board. The bow wave is vicious.
Steering is a bit too peppy. It takes a light touch to avoid doing much harder turns than expected. like instant 90 degree turns with accompanying hard rolls. I didn't fall, didn't really come close, but jeez.
I think that for the reason I got this thing--exercise that doesn't mean gym time--it's going to be great. I've been back for a half hour and I'm still breathing hard. It's like a short stroke stair stepper. Holding 5.5 for a few hundred yards is a serious workout.
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This afternoon I pedaled the Hobie to Wells Island and back. Anyone who is looking at the Mirage drive as a lower-effort water toy is going to be hugely disappointed. I basically drove a stair-stepper for four miles, and it felt like it.
I discovered something very strange. This thing is faster against a light current than with it. I was so certain I was just nuts that I did six loops, trying my hardest to hold the same cadence both ways. It's faster against the current. Not a tiny bit faster, about 12 percent faster in four tests fairly careful tests-- about 4.1 with the current for a steady, slow pace and 4.6 against the current I don't know what the current speed is close to shore between the hook and the event center is right now. Probably one or two MPH.
I have a theory, see if this makes sense. The stair stepping isn't very much about pressing hard on the pedals--it's lifting your weight to the requisite height and straight-legging the pedal down. It's hard to feel any difference in resistance other than to say it feels like there's not enough resistance when I'm going with the current, and there might be a little more resistance going into the current.
With the current, the effective speed and related lift of water across the flipper foil is lower than against the current. The foil can generate more lift with that higher speed from the same cadence, but the higher lift means more drag. Obviously the higher drag takes more energy, but it's hard to feel it because of the nature of the stair-stepper system. Just as obviously, at some higher current speed the greater efficiency is going to be overcome and the thing will go slower.
Anyway, that's my guess.
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Anything to get on the water and get some exercise is great. I bet you could haul ass if it was mounted on a narrower unlimited.
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Anything to get on the water and get some exercise is great. I bet you could haul ass if it was mounted on a narrower unlimited.
I hit 7mph on a 12' today. So yeah.
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So when are you going to put it on something sexy?
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I think that's going to wait until I see just one Wells Island.
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When did that ever stop you!
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I wore leggings today to protect the silky skin on my legs. Thought you'd chuckle. But I'm not kidding. I really did.
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I took a test drive on a 12' Eclipse yesterday. I'm a so-so flatwater paddler, and paddle a 12-6 Ron House and 14' Laird Bark board. I've never used a Hobie Drive but have been impressed by the reported efficiency of the drive (a large blade moving slowly produces the least turbulence and hence efficiently transfers work to motion: why fish have fins and not propellers).
I felt like there was too little resistance in the fins and it felt like I wasn't using my legs very efficiently. It probably could be remedied with larger fins. That would drive the board faster but once you hit hull speed (4.6 kts for the 12' board) it would be like trying to push the board through molasses. Now, I wasn't going 4.6 kts, so I could have used larger fins and still kept it under hull speed. But it also suggests to me that putting a drive on a long board might be really sweet. A long catamaran design, like the Standamaran could be incredibly fast with a larger drive fins.
A while back I tried a one-off contraption made by Easy Rider: a stand up board based on a kayak with an ama for stability. It seemed quite questionable in that falling would possibly do damage to ama and paddler. But with handlebars, this problem disappears.
Lastly, a comment about the Hobie drive in general. Though more efficient than a propeller, a Hobie drive is a single speed device, while pedals can be geared to maximize the coupling of legs to drivetrain. This is an inherent limitation of the drive.
Robert
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Yes to all of that. The single speed aspect is not quite such a big deal. I think it's inevitable that the drive will feel like it's not doing enough since you are using weight to drive it. I want bigger flippers already, hopefully the huge ones used on the Tandem Island kayak will work on this drive.
I'm enjoying the thing though. It's a hell of a workout. I need to think the elliptical element through a bit. The handlebars are a big piece of the stability, necessary because of the rocking motion caused by the weight shifts. I need them to be more restrained than I intended to make them. I was just going to mount a pivot and make an L shaped handle with a bottom roller that pressed on the pedals. Very simple. Use bungees to hold the shafts up. Now I'm thinking that either the bungees need to be very stout or something else needs to make the handles useful for balance.
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I'm thinking of the Frankenstein child combo of the Hobie mirage with the Geezer Foil MkIII......... 8)
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I finally got to “test paddle” a Hobie Mirage Eclipse today. Was faster than I thought it would be and a very good workout for the legs. I didn’t feel any kind of core or upper body workout though. But then, I only had it out for a couple of minutes. Hardly enough time to make any kind of definitive statements. Was fun, but I think I’ll stick to my regular paddle boards. :)
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I think they really need to add in core. I'll get on that real soon now.
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That looks like a blast! Do you turn the board by using handlebar levers?
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Hi Spirit,
How are you? And yes, that’s exactly how you turn it. It takes a couple of seconds to get use to, as instead of leaning you into the turn, it throws you away from the turn. Again, it doesn’t take long, but it does take a couple of times to get used to it. At least it did for me.
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Haven't been around here for awhile, and just stumbled across this thread, and I have to say, "I'll be damned".
I was wondering if anyone here was going to take that plunge. I saw those being touted on a morning LA news show (KTLA) about 6 months ago, and was impressed at how hard an obviously experienced paddler was paddling, just to keep up with the people on those things who didn't seem to be working as hard. It was in a lagoon on glassy water. Interesting, it goes to the old adage "can't judge a book by it's cover".
But,,,,,,,,,,,, I've got too many toys already.
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It's silly fast considering the board design, which is wide enough to make it almost untippable. Hobie is a very smart marketing company, they don't focus on performance in their kayak development, they focus on usability by the largest market segments. This thing is not really for us, except it's so much fun. I keep looking at my poor butchered up 18' speedboard, thinking how fast that thing would be with a mirage drive and handles that let the "paddler" use their core and weight completely. People in moderately good shape generate more horsepower on an elliptical machine than they can on a bicycle with less perceived effort. That's one reason why ellipticals are such effective workout devices. Of course a bicycle with an experienced rider generates more, but for the average joe, the mirage drive is ideal.
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Think weight is an advantage on a mirage drive? Seems like it would be far easier for me to generate power with a mirage than someone smaller......give me some BIG wings.....and lets go waterskiing....... ;)
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Bill - would you recommend one as an addition to a quiver? They look kind of goofy but fun. Also - keep us posted if they can downwind.
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Absolutely goofy fun. Great workout too. I'll keep you posted on the downwinding, I'm certainly going to try it.
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Hi PB - you ever get that Eclipse DW session in? Very curious.
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Yup, it was hard, but it was fun. I'd do it again. You can catch any bump with a mirage drive, even ones you missed. Just chase them down. It constantly wants to round up, but if you're quick on the rudder and bang the drive fins flat on the bottom of the board it controls somewhat OK.
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It's occurred to me that the mirage drive would make great propulsion for a R2AK vessel. If they could be mounted on the transom of a monohull, or somehow on a multihull, that would be awesome. If they could stay immersed. I have no idea regarding the relative efficiency merits of one human powered drive vs another, but on the R2AK it seems that paddle and oar driven craft are in it for the adventure, but the winners are sailboats with pedal-driven-propeller auxiliary power. Last year it was so light that the pedallers/paddlers/rowers had a say in the outcome. But the dual-pedal driven sailboat won.
But hey, Karl Kruger! Legend.
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Just off the top of my head I'd think the Mirage drive would be ideal. With the pedals together the flippers are straight down and act as a fairly efficient centerboard. With the pedals away from each other the flippers are flat against the hull. And of course they can be pulled out easily and even replaced by either a plug or a better centerboard. The locking mechanism is stout. I don't know if Hobie would sell them individually, but they might get behind a serious effort. R2AK looks like a blast.
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This afternoon I pedaled the Hobie to Wells Island and back. Anyone who is looking at the Mirage drive as a lower-effort water toy is going to be hugely disappointed. I basically drove a stair-stepper for four miles, and it felt like it.
I discovered something very strange. This thing is faster against a light current than with it. I was so certain I was just nuts that I did six loops, trying my hardest to hold the same cadence both ways. It's faster against the current. Not a tiny bit faster, about 12 percent faster in four tests fairly careful tests-- about 4.1 with the current for a steady, slow pace and 4.6 against the current I don't know what the current speed is close to shore between the hook and the event center is right now. Probably one or two MPH.
I have a theory, see if this makes sense. The stair stepping isn't very much about pressing hard on the pedals--it's lifting your weight to the requisite height and straight-legging the pedal down. It's hard to feel any difference in resistance other than to say it feels like there's not enough resistance when I'm going with the current, and there might be a little more resistance going into the current.
With the current, the effective speed and related lift of water across the flipper foil is lower than against the current. The foil can generate more lift with that higher speed from the same cadence, but the higher lift means more drag. Obviously the higher drag takes more energy, but it's hard to feel it because of the nature of the stair-stepper system. Just as obviously, at some higher current speed the greater efficiency is going to be overcome and the thing will go slower.
Anyway, that's my guess.
This suggests that the efficiency could be improved by at least 12 percent with a new design modification. The long standup paddle is a terribly inefficient motor because the long arm reduces the force that a surfer can apply. You need to build or adapt some better substitute prototypes to lead the way: for surfing, for racing for exercise, for - - -. Suddenly catching waves would be sooo easy even for non-surfers, AND one could increase stability with more board speed, not so much different than a windsurfer in light wind.
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Maybe the reason its faster going into the current is the same principle as a sailboat being faster on a beam reach than on a down winder. The Mirage is powered by 'wings' that are flapped under water. The pedaling creates a difference of pressure on the wing which propels it by creating lift. With the current coming from behind, there would be less lift because there's less pressure difference on the wing.