Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: PonoBill on March 15, 2017, 06:05:02 PM
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So,GF2 needs to be a lot stiffer, a lot stronger. Two ways to do that--1. use very strong materials, or 2. use a strong structure. I'm going mostly with 2 with a bit of 1 tossed in.
The front foil will be boxed, the rear, i'm not sure yet.
Here's the start of building the box and a new connector foil. There will be two fences coming down to the joint of the main wihng, and a brace across the top that the board connects to.
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF2.JPG)
Here's the wing and center foil pieces. I cut through the top of the wing sections, leaving the aluminum intact, then flexed the pieces into this position
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF2-0.JPG)
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF2-1.JPG)
Glued with Gorilla glue
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF2-3.JPG)
Added carbon strips to reinforce the joints,
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF2-4.JPG)
Good start I think. I'm not going to try bagging this. the center foil is going to be a wet layup. I'm thinking a thin skin of spruce ply on the top of the wing, glued in place, and then carbon. The fences reinforcing the joints are going to be thin plywood with carbon on each side--a thin sandwich, but it should be strong. Top piece probably plywood with fiberglass over it. Maybe some carbon too--why not. I have a lot of 10oz scrap.
Total width is 29 inches. the center foil is 22"X8" The angle wings are 13" X8". I'm fudging a bit on the foil coefficient, but according to my calculations the full wing (center and angled wings) gives 240# of lift at 4mph. The coefficient might be better, we'll see. There's nearly 200# of righting force available if the foil tilts 30 degrees at 5mph. Lots 'o fudging in those numbers.
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I'm amazed you can actually do the math on that. I'm definitely not that kind of nerd. Mucho respect.
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Water makes it easy since the density parameter factors out to 1, so you can ignore it, and I'm doing a very simplified calculation assuming zero degree AOA.
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I like the new names: GF1 and GF2. Sounds a bit more hip than the original. Perhaps Admin can rename the thread.
I look forward to having a GF experience someday soon.
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This is a great design evolution.
What's the back again? Same apparatus or a single winglet on a fin?
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Cool. Are you going to router the board to recess the top brace?
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Very cool bro. I can't wait to move...so stoked about having a real workshop finally. Glad you'll have some of the experimenting out of the way. I was thinking about that board I want to build last night and it occurred to me that I should install a tuttle box in it. Now I'm thinking it would be good to also build in some hard points for mounting a GF2...or maybe that will be GF3.... :)
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Cool. Are you going to router the board to recess the top brace?
No, that's too much like work. I already have through bolt sleeves installed in the 11'11" SIC. I'm just going to bolt it to the bottom. We can do pretty later.
The tail will be a T wing in place of the fin. I think the standard fin fox will do for testing since there won't be that much weight on it. I'd have to go to Tuttle for serious use, through it might need a rudder.
A version of this design would be good for the boat idea you had Admin.
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I'd like to maybe get a thread going on putting in hard mount points. I'm starting a new board soon (that cabin is almost done!) and I'd like to add a Tuttle and/or a 4 point mounting plate into it. I keep thinking the 4 point is easier than a Tuttle overall. Of course I could be wrong but then again, so could the industry. Lord knows once the tooling is made it's near impossibile for people to switch to a better way. Ask Larry A about that.
I'll see if I can get us started. I'd like a few camera mounting options as well.
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A version of this design would be good for the boat idea you had Admin.
It sure could. I am envisioning a little steeper and deeper for the angled members with very minimal verticals (possible just mounting stubs) and a reduced length of the horizontals. Less chord as there would be two. One of these Flat V-foils just inside the fore and aft confines of the rider cockpit (3 feet apart-ish?). In my mind the mid points of the angled members would about 16-18 inches apart on each. Mine can be a lot less stable than yours. I don't need to stand on it.
I like how low you will be riding. How tall is your total foil?
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19 inches.
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More progress. The goofy eye problem seems to be helping me focus. Little pun there.
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF6.JPG)
Wing with top carbon. I glued an aluminum brace to the bottom that supports the wing joints and then glassed over it. Then did carbon on the top. I'll do one layer of carbon on the bottom and one more on top
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF3.JPG)
I think I'll bondo the thing before I do the next layer of carbon.
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF5.JPG)
Top brace and mount,
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF4.JPG)
I wrapped to top brace with peel ply to try to get some kind of wrap over the edges. Probably won't work. I should have tapered the edge.
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF22.JPG)
Vertical gates that brace from the top plate to the wing joints. I'll cut two out of this. It's 1/8 spruce ply wrapped in two layers of carbon.
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You are a rapid prototyping machine!
Are the gates needed? It looks strong as is.
US fin box mounts is a great idea for your T foil and would be cool for GF3 for the Flat V. I am thinking of doing that for both of the flat V's on my Swell Sled. Two plates in each box. 4 boxes. Maybe a foot of combined fore/aft adjustment with long boxes.
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Hey Bill, have you been following where kite foils are going? The latest is trying to get foils to carve turns off the back foot, instead of pivot turning between your feet. It's all about getting true surfboard feel. Within two years, what we have today will be no more, I think.
They are getting there by reversing the foils, bigger in back. Canard like setup. Zeeko has it in production. Back yard guys are just swapping wings. Some are getting it to work.
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DW, that's so funny. I was thinking of putting a forward canard on my bodyboard by mounting a fuselage backwards as a test. I was thinking it was too weird but I guess the rules are all thrown out these days lol.
I'll totally play with that.
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Hey Bill, have you been following where kite foils are going? The latest is trying to get foils to carve turns off the back foot, instead of pivot turning between your feet. It's all about getting true surfboard feel. Within two years, what we have today will be no more, I think.
They are getting there by reversing the foils, bigger in back. Canard like setup. Zeeko has it in production. Back yard guys are just swapping wings. Some are getting it to work.
Interesting thought. I can mount this big wing anywhere. A little T up front just to lift the nose up, and the big wing to bear the weight. Still might not turn, there's a lot of stability built into this kind of wing, but I think there's more of a chance of foot steering it. I guess I need to buy a bunch of fin boxes. That poor SIC Recon is going to look pretty strange.
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Are the gates needed? It looks strong as is.
US fin box mounts is a great idea for your T foil and would be cool for GF3 for the Flat V. I am thinking of doing that for both of the flat V's on my Swell Sled. Two plates in each box. 4 boxes. Maybe a foot of combined fore/aft adjustment with long boxes.
Yes, I think so. This is a fast and loose build and the joints need a lot of strength and rigidity if they aren't supported. Might be overkill, but that's my middle name. Well, actually, I don't have a middle name, but if I did...
The wrap on the edge of the upper plate worked better than expected. I think I'll foil the bottom edge to make it easier to glass and wrap it, and go for a good size overlap using the peel ply "technique" which is another terms for "bodge".
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF8.JPG)
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF9.JPG)
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Nice work PonoBill, this looks like it will be inherently stable and create lots of lift. Will the mounting plate go on the bottom of the board or on top like your first setup?
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I made it to go on the bottom, but I'm considering angling the gates so it could mount either way.
Here's the bottom of the foil with carbon--a 1/3 wrap on the leading and trailing edges
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF11.JPG)
And the top brace, wrapped 1/3 also, with peel ply stapled to hold the edges tight.
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF12.JPG)
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This is a great structural design man. I can see a lot of mounting options.
having never seen a rudder board up front, do they just glass tubes through the board for the steering rods and cables?
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Yup. Most use irrigation tubing.
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This is an interesting project for a human powered foil craft that uses a double decker foil under the rider and very small stabilizer foils in the front:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1269353040/help-us-break-a-speed-world-record/description
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Lovely cad work, I was impressed right up until I realized it was prop driven. it seems silly to use a propeller if you're going to have a pedaling mechanism. There are any number of moving foil designs that would transfer the human energy much more efficiently.
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Cross brace installed. I love laying glass or carbon onto previous layers that had peel ply on them. The "tooth" of the resin layer is perfect.
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF24.JPG)
Next I'll fillet the inside of the joints with chopped carbon and lay a patch over the fillet. Last step is installing the gates. I think they're necessary. It's a strong piece, but there will be lateral loads. I'm going to angle the gates as a cross brace. If I was laying up four or five layers of carbon I might not do it, but this if just two layers, lapped. Plenty stiff, but not necessarily super strong.
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF25.JPG)
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF26.JPG)
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The joints are faired in with chopped carbon and covered with a layer of carbon, now I just need to attach the gates, sand everything, seal it up, bondo and paint. I have two of the wood foils coming, I plan to build a short one and use just the wing for the front foil. Going to try DW's idea of the big foil in the back--makes a lot of sense. A few more days and this will be ready to rock. Not too bad for four days work with a lot of other stuff done as well. I bought one of the Hobie Mirage Eclipse boards today. I'm going to modify the pedals so it works like an elliptical machine. Should be great exercise--better than a sweaty gym.
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF27.JPG)
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF28.JPG)
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I think it's strong enough. Now I'm waiting for the bits to do a front foil and some mast tracks. Ordered a bunch of Chinook 12". I should have just driven down to Cascade Locks and picked them up at the factory.
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF29.JPG)
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF30.JPG)
Rigid like a block of concrete. Might be a little overbuilt (ya think?!?). If it's too draggy I'll pull the vanes and sand it thinner.
Rod Parmenter came by the other day. He's been talking to some guy that's building a SUP foil he wants him to test. We're going to stick a couple of mast tracks in my L41 to test it with a flat base plate. I'm trying to talk them into a 2' mast. What's the thinking on minimum mast height?
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Interesting.
Well.... you revolutionized paddles....might as well make foiling more user friendly as well! :)
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The mast track is genius. You think it'd work for a Clearwater kit too? (I need to hack up my Sim I think.)
This thing looks solid man. I've been in the desert wrapping the interior of that place out there and am itching to get my paipo in the water. But think when I build this next board I'm going to put some sort of mount in it and build a chinook kit as well while the garage is sticky/dusty.
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PonoBill, I believe you can mast at any length, but the longer it is the more distant the feel and reaction time. It also depends if you like the look of flying higher or lower.
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Doesn't the mast height also factor into the ability to sustain glide? In other words as the foil is slowing and sinking, the height of the mast would help determine the amount of glide before the bottom of the board contacts the water.
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Bean, throwing in another variable!
This is all becoming a word problem. ;)
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Are the gates needed? It looks strong as is.
US fin box mounts is a great idea for your T foil and would be cool for GF3 for the Flat V. I am thinking of doing that for both of the flat V's on my Swell Sled. Two plates in each box. 4 boxes. Maybe a foot of combined fore/aft adjustment with long boxes.
Yes, I think so. This is a fast and loose build and the joints need a lot of strength and rigidity if they aren't supported. Might be overkill, but that's my middle name. Well, actually, I don't have a middle name, but if I did...
The wrap on the edge of the upper plate worked better than expected. I think I'll foil the bottom edge to make it easier to glass and wrap it, and go for a good size overlap using the peel ply "technique" which is another terms for "bodge".
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF8.JPG)
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF9.JPG)
I want to see that on your electric car (not really).....where is that car...was that a tease? I want to do the same thing was hoping to learn from your journey:) sorry for the hijack...just got me thinking.
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Just getting back into it. The delay turns out to be beneficial--there are a lot more packs coming from wrecked Volts, Leafs, and refurbs from tesla swapouts than there were a year ago. I'm probably going to use about 20KW worth of Tesla battery that I can get for about 4K instead of the 20K it would have cost for new batteries a short while ago.
The car is on the lift. I'm getting ready to order the parts. Step one is getting the best transmission. I wanted to go with single speed gear reduction, but the only company that makes a suitable transmission has been unresponsive after some initial enthusiasm. So I'll go with a Toyota trans.
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Received these today. The masts and plates didn't come, but I started on the wings. One layer of carbon, five layers of 4oz on the bottoms. The odd looking one I'm extending with an aluminum plate to make a lower speed wing.
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF31.JPG)
(http://www.ridingsophia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF32.JPG)
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Bill, that looks great, sturdy me ready to fly.
Bean, you asked...
"Doesn't the mast height also factor into the ability to sustain glide? In other words as the foil is slowing and sinking, the height of the mast would help determine the amount of glide before the bottom of the board contacts the water. "
On a wave, the foil should be constantly lifting rather than pulsing. But the mast length helps with the 'Huntington Hop' pumping. At the end of the wave , as the power reduces you just lean very slightly back to increase the AOA.
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If you lean back too far will the foil stall, like an airplane wing?
And, yes the HH is exactly what I was thinking about when I made that comment.
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The HH is quite effective in getting around, it still looks a bit awkward...
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Got the masts today. Did a first layer of 10oz carbon and one of 60z glass because I couldn't get the heavy carbon to lay down--should have stuck with 6oz. So I covered it with wide pieces of fiberglass, flipped it over and lightly stapled the stretched FG to the wood, then wet the glass and the edges of the folded carbon. We'll see how that turns out. Looks OK so far. On one mast I cut the margin of the glass and carbon too narrow on one end, but I need to shorten one mast a bunch anyway.
(http://www.ponostyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF34.JPG)
I'll probably do the same thing on the other side, but I'll go wider with both the carbon and the fiberglass and get an inch lap. I'll do it as a cut lap but do the cut after the glass cures. Gonna take t light touch not to weaken the carbon. Maybe I'll just let the carbon have a fuzzy edge and just sand off the glass on the taped lap.
I've been playing around with the relationship of front to rear foil. I think if I set the nose to be slightly high with a neutral AOA and neutral AOA in the tail foil, then any weight shift forward reduces AOA on both front and back and therefore reduces lift. Might be good, might be terrible. It's something I can easily tweak with shims.
I don't think I'm going to put carbon on the baseplates. Doesn't seem necessary. Maybe a carbon patch over the fillet. I'll use chopped carbon to make the fillet.
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I have a talent for making work for myself. While I was working out a way to do the mast without bagging it, I thought "this would be a good place to do infusion". But no. Instead, I did "Infusion without bagging" also known as "Hey stupid, that isn't a good idea, here are ten reasons why."
It might have been forgivable, might have even worked, but it's cold and rainy in Hood River and cold in my shop, so I put the resin in a water bath, and then didn't watch the temp. By the time I was ready to mix resin the water was boiling. Any rational human being would have waited for stuff to cool but I thought "better wetting" and mixed the resin. As I started to work I felt the cup get warm, so I dumped it on the masts, hoping thinning the layer out would slow the exothermic reaction. Too late. I got it spread and worked it into penetrating, but it's a little uneven, which means lots of sanding and probably another layer of glass before hot coat. Dickhead.
Should have bagged it.
(http://www.ponostyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF35.JPG)
I laid a strip of masking tape down, then taped the carbon to with little strips of taping, finishing with a full strip of tape. Then did the same thing with 6oz glass. I cut both the fiberglass and the carbon precisely, laying down a strip of tape and cutting up the middle, leaving the tape in place. If I were making a suspension component for a race car, this is how I would do it, but I'd bag it and infuse the epoxy. I don't know WTF I'm thinking doing it as wet layup.
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You're on top of it now !
Bagging is so much simpler and cleaner, I worry about all the chemical cancers the old factory guys get. Washing hands in Acetone, heating food in the same microwave as they do the resin.....scary stuff.
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I worry about all the chemical cancers the old factory guys get. Washing hands in Acetone, heating food in the same microwave as they do the resin.....scary stuff.
+1 Surfoils. I see it at construction sites and have to look away. Acetone goes through the skin and directly into the blood stream. Worse yet, it penetrates the blood brain barrier - our last defense for the central nervous system. That filter can stop viruses and bacteria, but not acetone. Bad stuff.
Workers mock me when I tell them to use gloves. "Girls use it for nail polish remover." Google search doesn't help much - until you start to dig a bit. Yeah, it does very bad things to people.
Shop guys know. Epoxy guys know. Odorless fumes are the spooky ones. I use vinegar for cleanup. Lots of gloves. If the immune system ever gets "sensitized" its over. No more epoxy work, ever. It happens with certain species of wood too.
Years ago I was exposed to an odorless chemical (foundation waterproofing) that almost killed me. I passed out and fell through a floor, clipping my jaw on a joist. The floor below wasn't concrete yet, still gravel. I woke up with a broken jaw. Nobody saw me, no clue how long I was out. Don't remember a thing before waking up. Close call. Surgery, back to work and on the water in 2 weeks. Liquid diets sure suck though, six weeks of it. :(
Always a silver lining. Now, a fresh carbon respirator available at any possible exposure.
Good air is underrated and taken for granted. Breathing is THE most important thing for health and fitness.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxCd0v3MdUw
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I need to spend a day filling and sanding the Geezer Foil, and I still need to finish the front wing, but I'm dodging all that sanding to get the boards ready. Rod Parmenter has a new SUP foil, and I want to try my SUP version of the clearwater foil. So I did this to my trusty L41. I'm going to make some inserts so I can still surf with it, but I think it will be a great foil board. I have no idea what a big stiff section of carbon will do to the surfing characteristics, I think I'm clueless enough to not notice it, but we'll see.
I reinforced the EPS with some more EPS, but this is four pound construction board. Not as stout as PVC by any means, but better than the one pound popcorn.
(http://www.ponostyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF40.JPG)
I went with a full band of carbon and a layer of 6OZ S-glass. I'll sand and hotcoat tomorrow, then Dremel out the slots and be ready to rock.
(http://www.ponostyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF43.JPG)
In preparation for the rear GF2l and front wing I further butchered my long-suffering Recon 11'11"
(http://www.ponostyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF42.JPG)
I don't think I need carbon on the back--there's quite a bit of helpful leverage in both the width and the length of the mount. But for the front wing I did a little double carbon patch and two layers of 6oz.
(http://www.ponostyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF41.JPG)
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I like to cut the boxes open with a knife. Right when epoxy cures enough to still be flexible. Before it gets rock hard. I like getting a peak inside to ensure no drips. It's nicer than using trimmer bit the next day. For me anyway.
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DW, like the joy of freehand cutting laps with a razor blade when you know it's set but you can cut and peel it off.
PonoBill, I can't wait to see the Geezer foil in flight, it's going to be great.
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I'd like to do that, but I'm rarely around when the epoxy is in that state, and too forgetful to rely on it. I stuff the boxes with EPS and sand over them. I do manage to clean up the trim lines when the epoxy first gels--sometimes. That usually happens just before I turn the lights out. I trimmed the front and back edge of the S-Glass on the SimSUP, but the mast tracks were too soft to try.
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I just tried it before I headed out to lunch with Diane--still too wet. It's a worthwhile thing to attempt since routing out the slot is so easy to screw up. I cut down the middle with a Dremel and then use a carbide file to match up the edges. A lot of time for a little slot.
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I appreciate that you are paving the way for me in these mounts. I really don't trust my board skins but seeing that Kings Tuttle makes me think that it's not that big of a deal.
I think your carbon patches are the deal, making a big plate on the bottom, in effect.
I'm really thinking that the dual mast mount makes way more sense. Even if you connect them to the deck it seems easier than the Tuttle overall.
Those Chinook boxes that connect to the deck seem like they'd be good encased in some HD foam.
As to your AOA stuff, I think you're on track and yeah, shims will let you test. I taped tiny washers onto my foil and stuck a screwdriver in my wetsuit so I could tweak on the beach.
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Yeah, I think this is going to work well. We'll be testing this stuff pretty hard, not just the geezer foil, but a number of new SUP foils as well. I'll know how well it all holds together very soon.
Oh, and DW, I happened to still be in the shop when the big carbon patch was in a good state to try your method. Holy buckets, that's ever so much easier. Thanks. As usual, your tips save me time, effort, weight and money.
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I've been playing around with the relationship of front to rear foil. I think if I set the nose to be slightly high with a neutral AOA and neutral AOA in the tail foil, then any weight shift forward reduces AOA on both front and back and therefore reduces lift. Might be good, might be terrible. It's something I can easily tweak with shims.
Just pointing out that if you "set the hose to be slightly high", you will have slightly negative AOA for your transition from displacement to foiling. I suppose on the face of a swell this will be short-lived.
I notice that the SUFoilS (SUF? SUFS?) riders stand quite forward on their boards. I would figure their COG should be about where the mast is but instead they are forward of the front wing. They must be countering a nose up pitching moment but I don't know why. Do the rear wings have negative AOA relative to the forward wing? If so, makes sense for carving those lovely turns they do, but it must be draggy.
With that in mind, back to your board. Maybe a bit of negative AOA would help you turn.
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Probably true. The big SUP foils with a lot of area and asymmetric high-coefficient foils generate way too much lift when speed increases. If they pop out of the water with a little positive AOA at 4mph then at 8 MPH they are generating 4 times the lift and want to leap out of the water. the AOA needs to be pushed negative to keep them in the water. They have no control other than full manual so what you got is all you got.
The geezer foil surface area declines as it lifts, so there's some compensation, plus the distance from front foil to back foil is nine feet. I'll be able to walk forward to push the nose down, and when I do the AOA of the rear foil goes more negative and the foil should settle. I have no real idea what the starting conditions should be, just a lot of guesses. The anwer to almost every question is "we'll see".
I just need to discipline myself to spending two days in a poopy suit and respirator, sanding and filling the lumpy thing. then we'll toss it in the water and learn some stuff.
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I forgot to add a quote from a Sailing Anarchy discussion on this topic. The most common sense approach was "In practice you just stick them on the boat and go flying, and if it seems wrong change it."
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That's about it. I know how to do the math, but that' doesn't mean the crap I build is gonna work like the textbook says.
I checked all the mast bases today with real mast nuts. For some reason I thought I needed six--I need twelve. I think I cleaned out Big Winds. On a positive note both the L41 and the Recon 11'11" are ready to go. Now I need to clean my shop a bit, sand the geezer foil, and assemble all the bits.
You'd think I could find a couple of interns or hire someone to help out, but no. The gutter guy that came to my house today to look at replacement said "June--maybe". I said, "you're the only gutter guy around for 50 miles, can't you hire a bunch of guys and teach them to do this?" We had a good laugh over that. He's 58 and said he thinks his back might hold out for five more years. He can charge pretty much anything he wants.
All these people, including my brother, who think we have an immigration problem need to put the fucking bong down and look around.
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You'd think I could find a couple of interns or hire someone to help out, but no. The gutter guy that came to my house today to look at replacement said "June--maybe". I said, "you're the only gutter guy around for 50 miles, can't you hire a bunch of guys and teach them to do this?" We had a good laugh over that. He's 58 and said he thinks his back might hold out for five more years. He can charge pretty much anything he wants.
Assuming that was Barry, June, Maybe means August, possibly. Hysterical guy though and awesome work.
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Copper gutters really do require some special skill and care but will also last a lifetime. Here on the EC we still have had an abundance of day laborers ready to go at many of the local quick-marts, although currently spring cleanup is absorbing (er, ah, adsorbing?) most of them.
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You'd think I could find a couple of interns or hire someone to help out, but no. The gutter guy that came to my house today to look at replacement said "June--maybe". I said, "you're the only gutter guy around for 50 miles, can't you hire a bunch of guys and teach them to do this?" We had a good laugh over that. He's 58 and said he thinks his back might hold out for five more years. He can charge pretty much anything he wants.
Assuming that was Barry, June, Maybe means August, possibly. Hysterical guy though and awesome work.
Who else could it be? He's it.
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Copper gutters really do require some special skill and care but will also last a lifetime. Here on the EC we still have had an abundance of day laborers ready to go at many of the local quick-marts, although currently spring cleanup is absorbing (er, ah, adsorbing?) most of them.
We have amazing copper gutters on Ponohouse. We didn't have them on the building across the pool, so we had some done. Yikes. These are super deep to accommodate the tile roof and hand formed in a style that isn't commercially available so it's priced like art. My butt is still sore. You can see them in the video. http://www.ponohouse.com/
Hood River doesn't have anyone looking for work. The folks with signs at the freeway entrance no longer use the "will work for food" shtick. I suspect they get too many people stopping and offering jobs.
Both the Recon and the L41 are ready for foil duty. Sometimes I just hate myself for proceeding when I know I shouldn't. Out of Kwick Kick and Additive F, shop too cold, no decent paintbrush? No problem, I just want it sealed, I don't care how it looks. Oh wait, I do care, what's with the fisheye and the brush bits. IDIOT!
(http://www.ponostyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF50.JPG)
I don't like shiny finishes on the bottom of surfboards anyway, so it's no big deal to sand it, but the fisheye will remain.
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In composites you get to pick your own definition of "done." It's all strong enough, it's just how tweaky you wanna be. Right?
My cosmetic bar is lowering now that I've done a couple of nice ones. I'm ready to move fast and prototype.
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All these people, including my brother, who think we have an immigration problem need to put the fucking bong down and look around.
Are you going daft in your old age? I've only said we have an illegal immigration problem. Stop paying able bodied people to sit on their ass, and allow for legal immigration, illegals can no longer be exploited by business....wages go up for all....people are less inclined to sit on welfare because they can now get a job that pays better than it does......do all that and finding folks to do work will be easier. Break the illegal cycle bro...that's all I want.....and the reason I want it to change is so that wages can rise for all. Put your own bong down and tell me the restaurants, hotels, construction, etc, etc...don't take advantage of illegals to pay less wages and skip other requirements legal workers bring.
On another note...why the fuck would you want to bring politics into a thread on foils.....isn't the shitshow enough without polluting other threads with it?
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The big SUP foils with a lot of area and asymmetric high-coefficient foils generate way too much lift when speed increases. If they pop out of the water with a little positive AOA at 4mph then at 8 MPH they are generating 4 times the lift and want to leap out of the water. the AOA needs to be pushed negative to keep them in the water.
You have reminded me that the two wings don't increase lift proportionately. The bigger wing's lift increases far more and thus the centre of lift moves forward. Hence the rider must move forward to keep the COG in line. Not just to force the AOA more negative, but as a steady state because the COL has moved forward. If he slows, he moves back.
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Move forward, as in shifting more weight to the front foot, not cross-stepping...
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Advice from Kalama who knows a thing or two about many things including foiling.
As soon as it starts to lift, press down on the front foot. The one move to practice, ideally on a boat, is the Huntington Hop variation..
Most, if not all, of the wipeouts on video are from a runaway schnozz. Straps help so they say..
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Bob--simply venting. I foolishly coached the great helper I had last year to clean and organize the place into getting a job organizing one of the larger high-tech companies around here. talked myself right out of a great asset. She'll be running the place in ten years.
Big, bean and black--you're thinking of a board with one mast and a two foot fuselage at the bottom. GF2 has a little wing up front, and nine feet back a second, much larger wing. Dave commented on the GF2 saying something about it being a good place to sit on the beach. A nice, sturdy, carbon fiber geezer bench.
I don't think anyone knows how to make this thing fly yet. But I did some calculations again last night. at 15 mph I have 1200 pounds of lift--if the rear foil is fully submerged. I'm pretty sure it won't be. It would probably be bouncing off the surface like a skipping stone. Unless maybe I get another three fat geezers to ride it with me. Not a pretty mental picture.
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This is kinda like what I've had in mind. I still want to paddle it...... FAST. Not pump, surf, or downwind.
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Dave commented on the GF2 saying something about it being a good place to sit on the beach.
Hey, good is good...he's just jealous. But just in case, pack some sunblock...
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TD!! That's the GF2 -- sort of. Change the front wing to just a little foil wing and move it to the nose and we're done here.
(http://www.ponostyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF51.JPG)
Here's the front wing, and the base for the wing being bagged. Three layers of carbon and two of 6oz satin. That's my ultrasonic leak detector at the top of the mast base. I don't know how people do bagging without one. Thanks DW.
(http://www.ponostyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GF52.JPG)
I faired the base of the wing with chopped carbon.
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This is kinda like what I've had in mind. I still want to paddle it...... FAST. Not pump, surf, or downwind.
Not to be a stick in the mud TallDude, but that idea won't work on flat water. Swell energy is needed to get an Sup up on a foil. Olympic level K1 paddlers can get a foil kayak up for short distances. Once up, they go like the wind, but not for very long. No way an sup blade can generate the watts.
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Never say never. It may just release a little skin friction. Let me rephrase that. With a little less skin friction, it may release some.......Almost as if to lube it up..... The board I mean.
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We have amazing copper gutters on Ponohouse. We didn't have them on the building across the pool, so we had some done. Yikes. These are super deep to accommodate the tile roof and hand formed in a style that isn't commercially available so it's priced like art. My butt is still sore. You can see them in the video. http://www.ponohouse.com/
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Check out these gutters. Almost totally hidden. Very spendy. Worked on this house back in 98-99.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/risley47/Rainwater%20slots%202_zps4orsfxst.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/risley47/media/Rainwater%20slots%202_zps4orsfxst.jpg.html)
I covered rafter tails and put up facia for about a year. Just the mahagany. The framers did magnificent work.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/risley47/Glue%20Lam%20rafter%20tails_zpsfgbq1uh7.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/risley47/media/Glue%20Lam%20rafter%20tails_zpsfgbq1uh7.jpg.html)
This one is a vallley, but you get the idea. About 12" high.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/risley47/Valley%20rafter%20tail%20box_zps1616mygy.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/risley47/media/Valley%20rafter%20tail%20box_zps1616mygy.jpg.html)
Almost blind fastening. Plenty o glue.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/risley47/Fasten%20Hip_zpsvk9iorq4.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/risley47/media/Fasten%20Hip_zpsvk9iorq4.jpg.html)
Pop on some jacks
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/risley47/Add%20Jacks_zps37nb73ia.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/risley47/media/Add%20Jacks_zps37nb73ia.jpg.html)
Then some facia. Solid mahogany.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/risley47/Facia_zps9c61zack.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/risley47/media/Facia_zps9c61zack.jpg.html)
Brutal working conditions.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/risley47/Workshop_zpstjggnwio.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/risley47/media/Workshop_zpstjggnwio.jpg.html)
Nice house. Audrey teaches people how to make money at Berkeley. She built this one at just the right time. Rumor has it the value doubled before she moved in. Some say tripled. She didn't mind that the materials for the roof alone cost more than ALL the materials for Ponohouse.
Nice details everywhere.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/risley47/Front%20Entry_zpsiuhpztoj.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/risley47/media/Front%20Entry_zpsiuhpztoj.jpg.html)
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That's wild.
Lots of ways to make money in the world. If I had it to do over, I think I could manage a few more zeros, but I'm not sure it matters.
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Yes, nicely executed!
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Big, bean and black--you're thinking of a board with one mast and a two foot fuselage at the bottom. GF2 has a little wing up front, and nine feet back a second, much larger wing.
Yeah, I get it. I'm just trying to understand why folks choose the foils they go with. Particularly the seemingly established practise of using of an anhedral main wing by others. I would think it would make a board twitchy and all wrong for beginners. I get that it makes for a carving machine for the experienced.
Its fun to watch the youngsters do what they do, but the only way I'm going to foil is on something a lot more stable. I'm excited for GF2 and hope it's successful enough for you to keep going with it.
Today I found a lot of basics here (probably for the fourth time - I'm too scattered to remember) http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/hydrodynamics-aerodynamics/ and their multihull forum.
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Actually, I have been thinking about the Geezer, short 10" masts in single foil designs, and the surf cowboy plywood experiment.
My terse speaking, or texting style, does lend itself to confusion I confess. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. And I wasn't raised in that church.
A serious question on the geezer design relates to my sense - and this could be wrong - that it would be very close to the surface of the water and more easily influenced by chop, swells, and motion in the ocean.
I saw a video of a guy riding a boat wake on a one foot mast and the board was constantly contacting the wake. In the ocean he would have been swimming.
Let me know if any of this makes more sense.. ;D ;D ;D
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Any reduction in chop contact is a win. It's true that my foil was bouncier than a tall foil, the reduction in bounce was marked. I think on a big board in anything but the worst chop you'll feel quite a difference. That, coupled with the reduction in drag and I think the GF2 will be a fun ride.
Ok, maybe the GF4 and CF3 will be fun rides. Ha!
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It's a possibility it will bounce like crazy Big, but the way most of the forces work it should stay on top of chop. The nose is the tricky part--single wing, and if it dips, the AOA decreases, meaning the dip isn't resisted. I might have to add a surface sensor and flaps. Mr. Efferding thinks so. Fortunately, he has a beautiful high-aspect wing with flaps that would be ideal for that. But we're going to try simple first. If only because I spent a lot of time building the damned thing.
My theory is that the nose will bear little weight, and the wing will be near the surface--adjusted by standing postion. Hopefully not popping wildly out on every bounce.
The tail is self-stabilizing both for roll and for bounce. Lift the wing higher and the wing area drops quickly because of the angles. Push the wing deeper and the lift increases rapidly because of increasing area. I think just moving forward or back on the big, stable platform will keep the thing under reasonable control. The angled sections of wing have the most aggressive foil. The center span is almost symmetrical.
As always, we'll know soon. I think I'm going to name this thing the HRFS We'll see. (Hood River Foil Ship).
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Bill, It will be very interesting to hear how it goes, I didn't realise how big the craft is but that can make it very stable with the foils further apart.
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Refreshing this. Has it been in the water? Pics, ride reports? I know it's Summer so we're not in the shops as much but how's this been. I saw a rumor of a push test on another thread. Just wanted to keep this one going.
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It needs sanding. I hate sanding. So it's kind of sitting there, waiting to be sanded. Other than that it's ready to go. Or not go, as the case may be.
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Either is acceptable but yeah, sanding. Argh.
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Any update Bill ? great concept.