Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: surfcowboy on March 06, 2017, 07:40:35 AM
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Here's one of the ideas we've been tossing around. This guy made a kit. $125 with all the wood cut and foiled.
I'm going to hit him up and see if he'll cut one for lower speeds.
http://www.clearwaterfoils.com (http://www.clearwaterfoils.com)
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The site says he's working on a SUP version. Where did you find the price? I'll order a couple.
Nevermind, found it. Damn those big "single page" sites (which never really are single page). Oh, wait, I built a few of those. Never mind again.
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Here's one of the ideas we've been tossing around. This guy made a kit. $125 with all the wood cut and foiled.
I'm going to hit him up and see if he'll cut one for lower speeds.
http://www.clearwaterfoils.com (http://www.clearwaterfoils.com)
looks interesting worth a play although I don't think there is anything there you couldn't whittle in a few hours and use a wood that has a good amount of natural oil and you wont have to worry to much about dings, just hope it is stiff. The birch plywood one I made was fairly good but does take a bit of time doing all the glassing and sanding which is why I'm going the moulded route.
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I plan on wrapping it with carbon, and probably extending the trailing edge to gain some square inches. I've got a bunch of 10 oz 3k that I don't have another use for--bought ten yards for a project that didn't work out. I made some carbon kick plates for the doors of my truck today. Tasty.
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Pono, post up that carbon work in random. Wanna see how you finished it.
UK, that's the thing, I could whittle it, but I don't want to have to whittle it 2 or 3 times as it's my first time. This will be a good place to start and then I can get busy.
I'm really interested in the molding technique. You have to document that. Will it be hollow like a car part or will you fill it? Also, do the 2 parts get glassed together? So many questions, can't wait to see it.
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That's sweet. For $125 it's not worth my time to to whittle it out myself and try to optimize the foils. I'd bet that if a few of us got together for, like, 5 of them he'd do a run in paulownia (if that's not already what they're made of) that we could carbon wrap. I'd definitely be in for 2-3 just myself.
ETA: Just sent him an email to see about tuttle boxed, SUP sized foils, in paulownia. 5-10 kits.
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come on boys just get the grinder out its not that hard!
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That's sweet. For $125 it's not worth my time to to whittle it out myself and try to optimize the foils. I'd bet that if a few of us got together for, like, 5 of them he'd do a run in paulownia (if that's not already what they're made of) that we could carbon wrap. I'd definitely be in for 2-3 just myself.
ETA: Just sent him an email to see about tuttle boxed, SUP sized foils, in paulownia. 5-10 kits.
As mentioned in his website he is using the wood for the main strength in his build which looks to just be pine or something, this makes the build a little simpler and need a lot less glass or carbon. If you switch to a lighter wood you are back to relying on the composites to do the work which is fine but makes it all a little more complex.
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^^Not too. I'll gladly trade half the weight in wood for putting on a second layer of carbon. Putting on 2 is just as easy as putting on 1 and the extra cost on such a small part is negligible. Especially since I plan on bagging it anyway, light core always wins.
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You will need way more than two plus to make something like paulownia. You will need more like 6-8 plys minimum of uni per side running length ways then 3-4 running at 45 to get the torsional stiffness you will also need to do the same on the fus to stop that bending as well as twisting. The last fus I built in high grade birch ply and even that with two plys was not enough to be fully rigid and any twisting you get when on the foil leads to a huge loss in control. You could do a very simple test with a plank of balsa from the hardware store but from experience personally your better of ether going low tech like the guy is suggesting or going high tech and making moulds which after about 5 prototypes in various constructions including light weight cores is the way I'm going.
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Hmmm, good info, thanks. The standard for paipos here is a 1/2" pauwlonia core with 2 layers of 6oz glass on the base and 1 on top so I thought 2 layers of carbon would have been plenty.
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If you're looking for torsional stiffness I wouldn't use Uni unless it was one layer lengthwise, one 90 degrees to that, lather, rinse repeat. I used three layers of 10OZ 3K straight weave for the first geezer foil and the support arms. Torsional stiffness is good, and longitudinal flex is pretty good, but the joints and the mounting plate not so much.
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Definitely not uni, I'm thinking (now) 2 @ 45* and 1 intermediate @ 90*. Although 1 layer of uni spanwise would really help keep the flex down.
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Ah, UK saving us from broken parts.
There are crazy forces on that joint between the mast and fuselage if you think about it.
I'll take the pine for my first one since I'm going to crash the hell out of it and I'm ok with the 4 point mount as I'll probably just screw it to a Pono skin (trademark that man) and duct tape it to the bottom of my board for the first tests.
Looks like I'll be building an aquarium pump vac bag rig soon. Get ready for some crazy shop pics.
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Your life will suck with an aquarium pump, or rather it won't suck enough. I figured out a way to use the cheap oil-spewing pumps and keep them from blowing oil everywhere, a swirl pot on the vent (made from a Fosters big-ass beer can) that drains back to the fill cap. I don't know why they wouldn't just come this way. You can get the oil bath rotary pumps for 65 bucks at Walmart or about $80 from Jet or Harbor Freight. 3 cfm or thereabouts.
Uni is always a little tricky. the biggest advantage besides being a bit cheaper is that the fiber isn't kinked by weaving. Even in a resin matrix the wiggle of passing over and under crossing fibers gets taken up a bit as load is applied, so woven carbon cloth has a little more initial give. But uni provides almost no rigidity perpendicular to the fibers, and if something pulls up on a fiber it can cut itself right out of the matrix. If you get a fray on a Ke Nalu xTuf shaft, don't pull up on it. Sand it off. You can strip it full length, right out of the shaft. There's nothing but a thin layer of epoxy to stop it. And the fiberglass underneath the Uni carbon on xTuf shafts is there to keep the shaft from buckling against your hand and to resist twisting. The uni doesn't help resist twisting much. If you wanted a nearly pure Uni shaft (which would feel terrible, btw) you'd need to wind one layer at an angle (maybe 70 degrees) and the second at 110 degrees (70 reversed). Uni is super strong when you use it right, and a fantastic material, but you have to watch the lateral load and figure out how to resist it. Carbon fiber is ONLY strong in tension.
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for a light weight core the mast which the main issue is stiffness down the length 6-8 plys of 200g uni to then 3-4 layers of 200g plain weave running at the 45 to stop any twist Per Side.
for the fus. the main issue is torsional stiffness, I use something more solid for that as it make mounting points easier, for birch ply I use 1-2 layers down the length of uni then 2-3 layers of 200 plain weave on the 45.
This layup will give you something that is fairly solid, I have tried less.. The main issues you will find are getting it solid around the joints between the board and wings.
Try less by all means experiment, I did and my results are posted above.
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Ah, UK saving us from broken parts.
There are crazy forces on that joint between the mast and fuselage if you think about it.
I'll take the pine for my first one since I'm going to crash the hell out of it and I'm ok with the 4 point mount as I'll probably just screw it to a Pono skin (trademark that man) and duct tape it to the bottom of my board for the first tests.
Looks like I'll be building an aquarium pump vac bag rig soon. Get ready for some crazy shop pics.
Aquarium pumps work fine on small parts like foils if you get the right one and you make sure you use new bags and get no leaks. I have used all numbers of different pumps over the years and having something that has power in reserve as it can save you time and money if you end up chasing leaks and don't get much pressure. stick a thing on ebay for a gast pump or similar that does not use oil and is nice and quiet, they come up from time to time quite cheap then ether just use with a bleeder valve and gauge or go on veneer supplies to get inspiration or order one of there kits.
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Automotive A/C pumps. Cheap and powerful. 8)
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Pono, post up that carbon work in random. Wanna see how you finished it.
UK, that's the thing, I could whittle it, but I don't want to have to whittle it 2 or 3 times as it's my first time. This will be a good place to start and then I can get busy.
I'm really interested in the molding technique. You have to document that. Will it be hollow like a car part or will you fill it? Also, do the 2 parts get glassed together? So many questions, can't wait to see it.
two options here the first is like you aquarium pump it only pulls 8" which is just OK for foam cores but you really want to have the option to pull higher especially when moulding some were around 24"
You end up bagging a lot more thing when you have a good and reliable pump setup that you know is not going to burst in to flames if you leave it running and all the oil pisses out and the motor seizes up ! plus with the vac switches ect it only comes on for a few sec every hour or so therefore save a bunch of energy.
http://www.acpsales.com/OnlineStore.php?cat=4839
http://www.veneersupplies.com/categories/Vacuum__Press__Items/Vacuum__Press__Kits/
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I have a nice Gast setup for my main pump, but I bought a oil pump first, and I hate wasting stuff, so I fixed the oil spewer. It actually works pretty well now.
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I'm sure I have warned people before but If you do use a oil pump its best to do it in a separate room to were you do any laminating as any oil vapour that gets in the air will ruin any glass or carbon cloth you have around not to mention contaminate everything else and give one more sure fire way to have fish eye headaches next time you do a hot coat.
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Could you guys post a couple of examples? I've tried looking at eBay and there's always a thousand options. In fact, I'll start a beginner bagging thread to link to some starter stuff.
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Could you guys post a couple of examples? I've tried looking at eBay and there's always a thousand options. In fact, I'll start a beginner bagging thread to link to some starter stuff.
tbh the price on here for the new one is pretty dam good!
http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Excel-1-Continuous-Run-Vacuum-Press-System.html
I just had to take a stab in the dark when I got mine I'm not one to really fully understand all the numbers just went for the bigger is better approach.
if not take the details of there and look for a similar one on ebay and cross reference on the gast website to get the full specs. I would tell you what mine were but they are a bit fare away at the moment! I have one of the square diaphragm ones which is a double piston one and then one of the round rotary vane type too which I have set up with a reservoir and all the bits and bobs.
there is a good gallery here of all the different builds.
http://www.veneersupplies.com/pages/Vacuum__Press__Gallery.html
my build is bellow you can get away with just the pump and bleed valve but in time you will appreciate the full setup.
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Thx man. What about the medical units? There are tons on eBay and I'm thinking that I'd crush less stuff with one of those LOL.
I'll start a thread so people can post up some links.
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Thx man. What about the medical units? There are tons on eBay and I'm thinking that I'd crush less stuff with one of those LOL.
I'll start a thread so people can post up some links.
possibly I have heard of them being used you would need to see what volume they pump and to what pressure, I have never played with one to test it. With small things volume isn't such a issue if you don't have any leaks however if you are going to ever do even a small board you will want something with good capacity as even a small hole will have you panicking as the resin starts to kick and you can get the pressure down. I actually have my second pump always on stand by for these occasions and even a shop vac to get the large volume of air that can be in a bag when I'm doing a 14' or 16' board. As long as you have a vac gauge and bleeder valve and don't go over 12" on foam you wont crush anything unless you want to which can be fun. I often compact my waste foam from the cnc with my vac pump its amazing to see it turn a huge sack into a pancake :)
you could always use a venturi vac generator but they are not great on power and use a lot of air so means having a noisy air compressor going alot
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Thx man, that's a great point. And yeah maybe the Venturi will be my backup in case of pump issues.
Also hitting my local surplus places this weekend. Ah, it's good to live in the land of aerospace surplus. Pono, when you're in LA sometime let me take you on a tour of the guys who sell off 50 years of Lockheed and Northrop history here in Burbank. Mind blowing.
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I love surplus places. Used to be able to go to Boeing's surplus yard in Seattle to get all kinds of stuff, including sheets of aluminum and honeycomb deck plate. I was going to do the floor of my trailer in the stuff, but they closed the yard.