Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: Biggreen on February 14, 2017, 06:17:41 PM
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A buddy of mine brought back some Innegra when he went to Florida to visit his Mom. He wanted me to build him a board using the stuff. I did. Having no experience with it there were a couple of spots where I thought, "Oh...well I won't do it that way next time." He'd visited a few local builders while there and they were doing a glass/Innegra/glass layup. I'm shaping another board now and plan to use it again. For those of you who have thoughts or experience with this material, my question is...If I'm vacuum bagging to a resin/microballoon sealed blank can I go directly to foam without an under layer of glass? Since the stuff is a polypropylene and doesn't absorb resin I wasn't sure if it needed something more substantial to adhere to. Thanks.
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You can put it direct to blank. I did a pull test and found it bonded better than glass to the blank.
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Hey, thanks DW! I figured you might have the answer I was looking for.
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So do you guys like the stuff for board building? I bought some to play with, made a hand plane, and had a lot of problems. Mostly just getting it to lay down and stay put. I like to get things settled before I stick the vacuum to it, and couldn't get any smooth wrap with the tight radius of the hand plane. I had to just call it good and squish it, and it shifted.
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Glass over the top of inegra and cut it above the apex of the rail it generally doesn't like compound curves all so you have a lot less chance of hitting it when sanding and getting a fluffy mess. Vac bagging is defiantly important with it to get it to sit nice and tight to the foam
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My first go round had a few hiccups. I did baste the rails and pre-wet the blank with resin before laying the Innegra even though I used the wet out table, and that helped a lot. The stuff is deceptive when you're trying to wet it out, I discovered. Since it doesn't actually absorb resin in the way glass does it's hard to tell when it's saturated.
And
I discovered the hard way that you need to be careful with relief cuts and make sure they don't overlap. And the free-lap I thought would disappear under several layers...didn't. The cut lap worked ok.
I'm gonna try a little different approach this time and see.
PB. I'll let DW and supuk tell you about the structural benefits of Innegra. Best I can figure is that it's bombproof when it comes to durability. And I bet if you baste your curves and let the resin sit a bit you'll have better luck. I know I sure did.
Thanks all!
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Not all Innegra comes with the proper finish for surfboard building. The stuff from Solar Composites falls apart and you end up drowning in white hairs everywhere.
I bought a full roll of 3.5 oz Innegra from BGF. It has the right finish. Never sheds hairs or falls apart. The finish adds stiffness though. I use the glass capping layer, to aide in sticking the laps.
A cab o sil cheater coat helps blend the edge of the Innegra.
It reminds me of dyneema kite leader line. It laughs at a sharp razor blade.
I use electric scissors. It's an ideal kook proofing layer for any SUP.
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Do you baste just the curves?
I'm pleased to hear there's a way to make this work without some kind of magic. I have my Innegra stash stuffed in the pile with the overly stiff S glass I bought, waiting for a project with no curves.
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Do you baste just the curves
No. I just wait until I get the glass over it, then tuck the laps. The glass pulls it down.
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Tried that, it just lifted the glass. I had pretty tight curves though.
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I think I could pretty easily come to love this stuff. With that stiffness DW mentioned the Innegra rolls out and lays down smooth on a blank. No fighting and coaxing wrinkles. If you're patient with your cuts it tucks in nicely. And if you cut your laps while the stuff is green, it trims easily and smoothly. The peelply just rolls right off instead of leading you to chicken chokers paradise, and to top it off, when cured the stuff is ROCK hard.
Even though I knew it would cause more work and time I did cut laps for the deck and bottom without the glass layer to help pull everything in place just to see how it would go. The deck layer I took right to where the rail line meets the bottom and ran my tape. The bottom layer I planned to wrap up and around the rail onto the deck for the traditional pinline finish. I was curious at how much of a bitch it would be to get the curves to lay. Deck went on first. I did baste the rails and all grabbed the curves and stayed down nicely. I bagged and let it do its thing and then while green and out of the bag I just folded the tape back around to the rail and ran a razor knife along the bottom line. Worked far better than I expected. The Innegra really does cut easy while green. Then to the bottom. I ran my tape, basted the rails, and rolled out my wet cloth. The stuff really does lay easier than traditional glass. When it came time to tuck the curves, the nose section wanted to fuss. I could get it to lay and certain spots would pop loose (nothing new, right?). I'd dob on a bit more resin and I made relief cuts just down to my tape line where they'd be trimmed off and that definitely helped. Still I had some poppers that I just had to pull down with the peelply and then just kind of massaged everything smooth as the vacuum pulled. I can certainly see the benefit of the Jimmy Lewis poor man's vacuum technique for this stuff for the non vacuum crowd. It'd help get everything to lay. Once out of the bag it was an easy trim and done. Yeah, I think I'm a fan
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Am jealous of you guys who can make them yourselves!
Had the pleasure of owning two King's glassed with innegra. Light and very very tough. Both in terms of resistance to impacts from paddle hits, rocks, sharks (a little joke) as well as pressure dings, softening over time etc. The only damage was a schnozz shipping ding which I repaired with sun cure - ugly as sin.
Between Matt and I the 7'11" CB3 King's has been ridden hard for over three years and is rock hard still. Rumor has it STC took it for a spin a while back..
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Clarification please... "basting" or to "baste" is just coating something with resin before applying cloth or hardware, right? I had never noticed that term until this thread.
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Basting means laying down some additional resin, usually with a brush instead of a squeegee or roller. Like basting a turkey. It's common to baste rails and/or laps to make sure the glass lays flat and stays there.
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Pono, thank you for that. Never knew there was a word. We still need a terminology wiki sticky for us non-surfers and latecomers. First entry should be "projection".
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It's going to need a Snopes-style true/false flag if you start with projection. Anyone who has had math past the tenth grade is going to have a problem with that one.
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Sorry to bring up an old thread but I just purchased some 7.8 oz Basalt/Inegra twill for a wingfoil board I’m doing. Impulse buy? Maybe?
I plan on laying Inegra direct on blank then covering with 4 oz glass. First off, I was thinking of basting the micro balloon sealed blank with epoxy resin. Let it get tacky. Lay the Inegra down, get it well positioned and flat, then, without adding extra resin, apply peel ply, breather/bleeder and put it in a vacuum bag. Once cured, and tacked down hard, take it out of bag then add 4 oz glass and squeegee remaining resin into the somewhat dry Basalt/Inegra cloth and glass. Possibly even vacuum bag again or not.
Is this stupid? I’d much rather be told by someone else than discover this truth on my own. Thanks
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Sorry to bring up an old thread but I just purchased some 7.8 oz Basalt/Inegra twill for a wingfoil board I’m doing. Impulse buy? Maybe?
I plan on laying Inegra direct on blank then covering with 4 oz glass. First off, I was thinking of basting the micro balloon sealed blank with epoxy resin. Let it get tacky. Lay the Inegra down, get it well positioned and flat, then, without adding extra resin, apply peel ply, breather/bleeder and put it in a vacuum bag. Once cured, and tacked down hard, take it out of bag then add 4 oz glass and squeegee remaining resin into the somewhat dry Basalt/Inegra cloth and glass. Possibly even vacuum bag again or not.
Is this stupid? I’d much rather be told by someone else than discover this truth on my own. Thanks
It’s going to be a heavy board, unless doing 1# EPS. Innegra is usually 2 oz or 4 oz in boards.
Don’t seal the blank. If vacuum bagging, and using a wet out table, you don’t need to. Adding weight for no reason. Using a wet out table will help get the fiber to resin ratio ideal with that heavy cloth. If needed, to help the laps stick, baste the EPS on the rails only.
Your idea will create a dry lam and a disaster.
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Thanks DW,
I appreciate the advice. I’ll be able to cancel the 7.8 oz Inegra/basalt twill. I will look for some 2 or 4 oz but am liking the idea of an Inegra/basalt twill., under 4 oz glass.
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My intuitioand limited experience says bag it all in one go. I can’t think of a reason why.
I may never lam the regular way again. So much less sanding.
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Does anyone know any online supplier or local(SoCal) for 2 or 4 oz innegra?
I'm been thinking about using it for many years now and I'm building up a foil board. I have bunch of 2mm cork sandwich material and 2oz FG. Thinking about using as sandwich construction with 2oz FG inside, then cork, innegra then 2x2oz FG on the outside. I assuming i still need to cap the foil box area with couple layers of cf.
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With Innegra, I was under the impression that it was best to always put it in between two layers of carbon or glass fibre.
Did Dwight say it works well between foam and fibre also?
I have some 2onz Innegra that I have had for ages and am about to use it in a first wing board build so curious about best approach.
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is anyone doing resin infusion with innegra/carbon? I would have thought that's the way to get it perfect
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Does anyone know any online supplier or local(SoCal) for 2 or 4 oz innegra?
I'm been thinking about using it for many years now and I'm building up a foil board. I have bunch of 2mm cork sandwich material and 2oz FG. Thinking about using as sandwich construction with 2oz FG inside, then cork, innegra then 2x2oz FG on the outside. I assuming i still need to cap the foil box area with couple layers of cf.
I made a SUP foilboard using a plain weave carbon/innegra purchased from Graphite Master in Los Angeles. Attached is link to their catalog. Wet table carbon/innegra cloth and vacuum bagged bottom. Bamboo veneer deck, also bagged. Topped 4 oz fiberglass over total board.
https://graphitemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/GRAPHITE-MASTER-Catalog-SURF-DNA-March-2018_High-Res.pdf
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Nice work, man.
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Just a word or two about Innegra.
While making my way through some rather large, sharp edged, barnacle and rockweed covered boulders I found my leg caught in a hole which, if I had fallen left or right, my lower leg would likely have snapped. I had only one option, toss my brand new board to the side and use my hands to prevent bodily damage. My leg did not suffer but I felt much pain, for my board. Damn, only the second time in the water. I picked up the, most likely damaged board, and amidst some curious swear words, made my way into the deeper water to perform a visual inspection. I looked, and looked some more but could not find a hint of damage. I looked again. Nothing. This Innegra/Carbon 4.8 oz twill is rugged shit. I do believe most of the hits were on the doubled up lap area near the upper deck rail but not all. I'm sold.
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is anyone doing resin infusion with innegra/carbon? I would have thought that's the way to get it perfect
I'm intrigued by infusion as well, and I asked that half of the question some years ago. The reply was that the voids in the EPS will soak up resin (of course! as it should!) so that is wasted resin and useless weight. Now someone earlier mentioned sealing the foam, and if that was perfect, then one could theoretically do an infusion. The reduction in resin weight might offset the sealing material weight. I think in practice this wouldn't work at all.
It should work if you were building a composite hollow board in a mould or flat panels for subsequent secondary bonding.
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I own one of his infused surfboards. Awesome! No foil boards that I know of.
http://corevaccomposites.com/about/
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I've made some non-surfing components with infusion. the big problem is how much stuff you throw away. Even relatively simple builds fill a trashcan. It makes traditional vacuum bagging, where you trash peel ply, barrier, breather, release film, and possibly the hose to the resin trap, seem downright frugal. Since I adopted DW's table wetting approach I haven't considered using either infusion or traditional bagging. With properly table-wetted material all I need is peel ply and a bunch of paper towels for breather. Light, simple, better incorporation of the layers, and a good mechanical bond to the unsealed EPS. It's hard to improve on that.
I have no idea what 7.8-ounce innegra would actually be for, but I'd put that aside and get some 2 ounce. I doubt there'd be any difference in strength and a big difference in weight.
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It makes traditional vacuum bagging, where you trash peel ply, barrier, breather, release film, and possibly the hose to the resin trap, seem downright frugal. .... With properly table-wetted material all I need is peel ply and a bunch of paper towels for breather.
Don't forget your plastic sheet on the wet out table. A flow system for infusion replaces breather layers, although hard to say they're equivalent and therefore not really an even swap. Net addition for infusion is the re-useable spiral hose.
People are simplifying infusion as well. One system is to cut grooves in the core material to act as flow channels, and this extra surface area helps with core/fibre adhesion. This does away with most of the flow mat. Easy enough on thicker hulled sailboats, tough to do on thin cored boards admittedly. Also, peel ply would only be necessary where secondary bonding is anticipated. I know it leaves a handy surface for finishing coats, but one of its purposes is to successfully pull away the outer bagging materials, in particular the fibrous breather, and that is not as necessary with infusion.
I'm saying all this so as to not dismiss infusion out of hand. Despite that, for repairs I now use pre-wetted material and heavy sand bags in place of vacuum for clamping.
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I've never been able to save many of the hoses, including the spiral. I tried once and wound up with incomplete flow out, which made me nuts. My experience is purely based on projects I did after attending seminars from a supplier, and they don't have much of a reason to teach how to be frugal with the stuff they sell you. I quit playing with the approach rather than try to refine it because ditching 100 bucks of stuff to make a 100 buck part felt a little nuts. I got to watch the fabrication processes at a serious motorsports fab shop. Their model is a bit different to say the least. Their dumpster is probably full of stuff I'd treasure, including offcuts from 500 bucks a yard kevlar honeycomb panel and rejected 3d printed titanium bits. I do really simple shit, and not very well. Like everything else, I'd have to focus my attention over a long time to get good. Not going to happen. I just discovered to my chagrin that apparently I don't know how to TIG weld aluminum anymore. I haven't done it for six months after a year of practice and projects. And now I'm back to the birdshit amateur level.
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When I built the panels for my hollow SUP I looked into infusion. As PonoBill said it all gets very expensive quickly and a huge amount of waist. If the epoxy goes of too quick you loose the whole project.
I don't think the small weight saving is worth the huge extra cost. As you said you would have to seal the blank first.
I have done a few boards with Innegra tape and carbon innegra. As people have said wet out table and poor man's peel ply work great. Innegra wants to float in the epoxy so you need to hold it down.
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When I built the panels for my hollow SUP I looked into infusion. As PonoBill said it all gets very expensive quickly and a huge amount of waist. If the epoxy goes of too quick you loose the whole project.
I don't think the small weight saving is worth the huge extra cost. As you said you would have to seal the blank first.
I have done a few boards with Innegra tape and carbon innegra. As people have said wet out table and poor man's peel ply work great. Innegra wants to float in the epoxy so you need to hold it down.
What is poor mans peal ply?
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It usually refers to clear tape or plastic wrap used to hold the fabric down instead of a vacuum if I recall correctly.
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Plastic film to help hold the cloth down. I use vac bag plastic. I know it won't stick. You can use any plastic film. Do a test to make sure it dosnt stick.
It works well to stop tape ends sticking up.
Jimmy Lewis does the entire board.
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I wasn't using innegra, but I was able to use a trash bag full of water as a poor man's vacuum bag - applies pressure and conforms to shape. It worked great!
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It usually refers to clear tape or plastic wrap used to hold the fabric down instead of a vacuum if I recall correctly.
Aha-you mean poor mans.vacuum bagging technique from Jimmy Lewis right? Poor Mans peal ply too I guess but that's not what Jimmy called it, and peal ply is obviously different than plastic
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Yes. Sorry about the confusion!
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Ill never build another board without Innegra. For the small amount of extra care, you end up with a board that , barring a small nuclear device, will not need a repair, thus saving you time in the long run. The biggest problem of getting it to lay down properly can be solved by using a Tackifier. I use Nu-Tack E an epoxy compatible spray on. A little expensive but one can will last a long time since so little is needed per board. I routinely lay on my board(top and bottom) with my huge metal harness hooks as well as drop my board repeatedly while negotiating sea weed covered rocks and ledges. while the stuff may be slightly heavier than pure carbon, its worth it. I also vacuum bag it which helps keep the weight manageable. Double thickness on the rail laps is recommended since that's where most damage is likely to occur. I use 4.8 oz carbon/Innegra twill 2x2, with carbon running the length of board and Innegra running transverse. Extra 4 0z glass under for deck patch and 4 oz over all. I then just fill the weave with epoxy/microballoons, sand it, and then put a very light, rubbed in sealing layer of epoxy. Time to foil!