Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: dns on January 05, 2017, 09:31:07 AM
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Like the title says, I've been researching SUP specific foils and the only available option seems to be the Go Foil. Horue mentions a prototype, but no info is available. Naish has theirs, but availability is zero and there's no way in hell I'm dropping $5k on it because it only comes with its own board. Are there any other options out there?
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Probably not until GoFoil makes a lot of money and gets knocked off. Their foil would be challenging for most other sports--the foil coefficient has to be huge to give the kind of lift it obviously generates at low speed and a reasonable area. I think it would be pretty nasty with a kite or sail unless you swapped out the front foil. You'd be popping out of the water like a Malolo with an Ono on it's tail.
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F-one also has a SUP foil available and I'm sure we will see more options soon. My friend Jeff got the F-one Foil but he says the edges are sharp and it seems dangerous for learning so he is getting a Go Foil to use until he feels confident enough to use the F-one.
http://www.f-onefoil.com/Products/Supfoil-range
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^ was just writing that
I think RRD and Gong as well.
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Probably better filed in "other foiling ideas"
but this,
http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2389889
in standard fin box and a ventral fin box might help a board get up a bit easier for DW planning. Wonder what the downsides are.
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https://instagram.com/p/BO44LcWA39k/
Pelican
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F4 Fins
http://f4fins.com/product/suspendisse-vitaesem/
AHD
http://www.ahd-boards.com/product/foil-ahd/
LP Foils
http://www.lpfoils.com/windfoil
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Windsurf foils are not SUP foils. Buy SUP foil, lower take off speed.
Another SUP foil here. https://instagram.com/p/BO5USgcDl6v/
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^ he's the Gong guy (l'ours)
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Windsurf foils are not SUP foils. Buy SUP foil, lower take off speed.
Can you please explain the difference? Why would a WS foil cause a slower take off? If the wing shape/size and canting is right, wouldn't it work the same?
I know some that are already using the F4 version on their SUPs with no complaint. Knowing them, I'm sure they've done some mods to the wings.
What's even more contradictory is AHD markets their foil as a "do it all" for both WS and SUP, so it's kind of misleading if they do not offer the same performance.
If it's indeed true about the WS foil not being compatible, I'm going to inform some buddies to save their $$$ and just wait for some more SUP specific (marketed) foils to come available. Thanks!
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This just popped up. Looks like a GoFoil again.
https://vimeo.com/197587520
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Can you please explain the difference?
I met the LP foil designer at Surf Expo and asked him if the windsurf foils would work for SUP. He said not very well. SUP needs a lower aspect foil providing take off at slower speeds.
LP, F4, and Horue windsurf wings are very long high aspect designs.
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Foil lift for fully submerged foils is governed by three factors: Speed, area, and foil coefficient (which is determined by the foil shape). If you design a foil for kite speed you have to ensure the foil doesn't lift clear of the water at the speed you're pulling it for the weight it carries.
If you build a low aspect foil you can squeeze more area into less width and get more lift. The aspect ratio affects drag substantially, but at low speed it's not that important.
Cant of a foil (angle of attack) isn't really a way to change lift, it's a way to tune the foil's reaction to the amount of power you can apply to it. Low cant is low drag, minimal stall. High cant is high drag, near stall (or stalling). In simple, narrow speed band applications cant it used to adjust the amount of lift produced at a specific speed, but it doesn't change total lift.
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I shot this yesterday at Kanaha. DK on a GoFoil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2nmyWpaAeU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2nmyWpaAeU)
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^^Wow. Amazing how much glide he maintains even way out in front of the wave with no push. Nice vid.
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Great footage of DK at Kanaha, well done. Dave really looks comfortable on it and I think he just started using it recently.
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It must have gotten crowded at Kanaha because later in the morning he came to the harbor when I was riding bumps on the surfski. Pretty cool. His foil looked very maneuverable compared to another out there with the downwind 'Maliko' version. I think Dave had the 'Kai' version. He told me the apparatus underneath made a small board fairly stable for paddling out. It's when you get lift that the pitch sensitivity starts. I watched and was interested.
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Funny: I wasn't interested in foiling when I watched Kai, Zane etc do it. But now I've seen Dave Kalama do it, I want to have a go 😀
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^^Wow. Amazing how much glide he maintains even way out in front of the wave with no push. Nice vid.
Yah, was nuts how far out on the shoulder he could go and come back.
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Great footage of DK at Kanaha, well done. Dave really looks comfortable on it and I think he just started using it recently.
Yes, been a few weeks now. He's diggin it.
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Funny: I wasn't interested in foiling when I watched Kai, Zane etc do it. But now I've seen Dave Kalama do it, I want to have a go 😀
Me too. Watching Kai do it is like watching a Space Alien do it--not human. Watching Dave and Sam Pae do it I can relate to. Yes, Sam is a much better surfer than I am, and Dave is in a totally different category, but still, they are both guys that are physically sort of almost similar to me.
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^^Ditto. Watching a water god like Kai or Robby pull something off is immensely entertaining, but not necessarily inspiring for us mere mortals. Seeing a regular dude (albeit a skilled one) doing (whatever the thing is) is what inspires me to think, "I can do that." And go out and give it a try. The water gods push the limits => The skilled mortals pick it up => The rest of us monkeys pick it up and start playing. ;D
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Kalama is so dreamy..
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Awesome thread, loving the posts.
Thanks for sharing the videos, inspiring to see bigger older guys making foiling look fun and easy.
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Is it just me or does that Jimmy Lewis foil board look like the thinnest SUP I have seen?
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I guess we have to remember that in 2014 Laird was doing this...
https://youtu.be/N01vrLwAWiM
but back to Foil SUPS and here are two more vids that are full of interesting bits...
https://youtu.be/5S2lUC0YDs0
https://youtu.be/fluuU2C1Kjg
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In the beginning, watching super humans and kids do it was not convincing.
Then seeing guys do it in chest high waves, I'd love to surf without a foil...not convincing either.
But this high tide mush being surfed by older guys has me sold me on it.
Now to just wait on the $895 version, like we have in kiting now. Maybe another year and we'll get to $895.
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But this high tide mush being surfed by older guys has me sold me on it.
I agree. Surf foiling seemed more novelty than practical.
There are tons of spots near me that at high tide become unsurfable or there is so much backwash/rebound off the shore that balancing is no fun.
I'm now wondering how the foil rides or cuts through the kind of surf where the incoming wave is hit with an outgoing wave?
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Here is a new foil I found on the net: Takuma Concept
https://www.facebook.com/TakumaConcept/
Aluminum. Sure to be cheaper than the Go-Foil for those interested.
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The Kite foils are all ready coming out of the back door of china factories, you can already buy the sling shot one for $200-300 on alibaba it won't take long before they are copying the naish and go foil!
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Kinda sad really. Been surfing the Harbor lately and more foil SUP on the water. There is a few guys that are now called the 3 stooges. They hang out in the impact zone and are totally out of control dropping in and falling over and seriously scaring the shit out of the regular folks.
I can see lots of problems in the line up with these inexperienced folks..
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Kinda like "sweepers" a while back.
Except those foils make sushi on contact..
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As much as I'm an advocate of sharing the waves, there's really no excuse for a yahoo that doesn't know what he's doing crowding the lineup and endangering others with a flailing hatchet. Foils are SO perfect for catching little bumps before they even think of becoming waves that a foiler can sit WAY outside and be on and riding even before other SUPers. Stay WAY outside, catch anything, let the other users catch the pocket. If no one jumps on feel free to play on the whole thing.
I'm actually looking into the Ali foils: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/OEM-Kitefoil-Kite-Foil-Manufacturer_60573336977.html
WAY too small front wing for SUP, but at the price I can afford to toss the front foil and DIY it. Just save the mast and back foil. Could be a fun project.
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As much as I'm an advocate of sharing the waves, there's really no excuse for a yahoo that doesn't know what he's doing crowding the lineup and endangering others with a flailing hatchet. Foils are SO perfect for catching little bumps before they even think of becoming waves that a foiler can sit WAY outside and be on and riding even before other SUPers. Stay WAY outside, catch anything, let the other users catch the pocket. If no one jumps on feel free to play on the whole thing.
I'm actually looking into the Ali foils: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/OEM-Kitefoil-Kite-Foil-Manufacturer_60573336977.html
WAY too small front wing for SUP, but at the price I can afford to toss the front foil and DIY it. Just save the mast and back foil. Could be a fun project.
That foil looks like it uses the bastard box, some of the French foils use. It's not a Tuttle. You might be forced to make your own box.
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What's a bastard box? I did a bunch of searching, but didn't find anything with that name. By "French Foils" do you mean Horue? AFAICT they use a standard deep tuttle.
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What's a bastard box? I did a bunch of searching, but didn't find anything with that name. By "French Foils" do you mean Horue? AFAICT they use a standard deep tuttle.
http://www.alpinefoil.com this one is a bastard. I can't recall what the French are calling it. I've seen it in person.
http://www.f-onefoil.com this one also uses the old ball box.
F-one calls it a KF box. haha, kite foil box. Bastard to them, or the same as Apline?
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Full circle or what? It's windsurfing all over again.
Tuttle box, alpine box, power box, A-box, and now just for fun the KF box.
But, my all time favorite box... The Bastard box!
Except if I made my own box. I'd call it the Chew-Boxa.
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Let's post the videos people. I'm not so sure I like them mixing in the learning via towing with the surfing. Makes it look like they just started.
Better marketing might have them JUST showing the finished product e.g. Surfing, Kiting Windsurfing. At least give us the appearance that someone knows what they are doing.
https://vimeo.com/183621688
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OMG the video is coming out of the woodwork.
Footstraps make all the sense in the world. Just have to position them properly. It would almost seem mandatory on the front foot.
https://vimeo.com/197250037
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Kai crushing it once again on the GoFoil:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVs_cD7bzI
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This is a photo of the Go Foil Maliko Foil, the Kai Foil and the F-one Foil
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any info on how the maliko compares to the kai? i got the email last night! :)
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Footstraps make all the sense in the world. Just have to position them properly. It would almost seem mandatory on the front foot.
Not sure I agree.
What is the appeal you see in footstraps? More torque for pumping?
The downside is the trickiness of getting in and out. Those transitions being the hardest part.
More importantly I'm not seeing them as very necessary. Foiling is piloted by finessing. Always very smooth always centered movements. Footstraps aren't needed for that. You mostly need to be very centered and that center may change by what you are seeking to achieve, just like a surfboard.
Watch Zane shift his back foot in this vid at 00:46, then again at 00:52. And many other times.
https://youtu.be/Pa2RWyCFG3U
I'm not discounting in the [not so distant] future some newschool foil riding with very small wakestyle boards and quicker turning foils doing radial maneuvers which are cranked not finessed. I can imagine that evolution and that requiring footstraps. Dunno how they launch though. At first tow-in. Definitely at wake cable centers and for wake surfing behind boats.
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I go hot and cold on straps. I'm back to strapless only at the moment. Straps add control, but are pain in the ass at the same time. You loose the freedom to micro trim with your feet. You loose the free feeling when riding.
And then there is the fear of straps. Every single foiler I know has sprained an ankle at least once, often several times, using straps. That 2 to 3 foot lever under the board with feet in straps sucks big time.
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Ahhhhhhh. Yes, exactly, that free feeling. I don’t even like skiing with alpine bindings any more.
Oh! Right! The tweaked ankles. I have a healthy fear of straps. Yep, I can attest you raise a valid point. I have a few screws holding one of my ankles together from exactly that.
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I go hot and cold on straps. I'm back to strapless only at the moment. Straps add control, but are pain in the ass at the same time. You loose the freedom to micro trim with your feet. You loose the free feeling when riding.
And then there is the fear of straps. Every single foiler I know has sprained an ankle at least once, often several times, using straps. That 2 to 3 foot lever under the board with feet in straps sucks big time.
Agreed...I think that the lever arm of the foil makes straining, spraining, or snapping an ankle likely at some point...
I can't believe the Horue guys looping their windfoil boards and sail rigs...
I have a handful of GOFOIL's (KAI & MALIKO) on order...most are already sold...
It will be interesting to watch how the IP and patent issues get resolved as this new sport takes off...as the Aguerras have an international patent pending...
They also own the factory that their foils are being built in...expensive tooling and autoclave equipment...etc...gives them a bit of a head start for now...
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It will be interesting to watch how the IP and patent issues get resolved as this new sport takes off...as the Aguerras have an international patent pending...
I'd be really surprised if they actually get granted a patent. Foils have been put on all sorts of watercraft for decades. Sticking one on a surfboard is nothing new, even if the surfer happens to carry a paddle.
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As someone who has had to use the legal system to pursue justice in an IP claim, I definitely wouldn't advise betting the family farm against AA's surfing foil design being denied the patent that they have applied for...from the sounds of it, they have good counsel...
If awarded, infringing parties would be liable for significant damages and attorney fees...etc...looks like a couple of the world's biggest board companies didn't want to take that risk either...YMMV...;-)
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More footage of DK I took a couple days ago. I'm on my 11 footer and still can't keep up with the foil. :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4ZawYOX5wM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4ZawYOX5wM)
I post more footage on my Instagram, you can check'um https://www.instagram.com/jasonihall/ (https://www.instagram.com/jasonihall/)
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^ nice filming. I figured it would be pretty hard to keep up.
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As someone who has had to use the legal system to pursue justice in an IP claim, I definitely wouldn't advise betting the family farm against AA's surfing foil design being denied the patent that they have applied for...from the sounds of it, they have good counsel...
If awarded, infringing parties would be liable for significant damages and attorney fees...etc...looks like a couple of the world's biggest board companies didn't want to take that risk either...YMMV...;-)
I haven't read the patent, but it's not likely to be a broad patent covering foils with their hundred years of development--more likely specific features. The patent office isn't the highly professional and prudent outfit it used to be. There was a time when gaining a patent was certain proof that an invention was at least an original departure from prior art. As the holder of a bullshit patent I can testify that is no longer the case.
I would never attempt to enforce the patent I hold. It's for core internet technology, and if I tried to collect license fees some of the largest companies on earth would line up to pull my pants down. The issue is always how much money will the opposition spend if you try to enforce a flawed patent, or push past the specific elements that might deserve protection. It's a gamble for both sides, but as with any gamble, the odds are on the side of the people who can afford to push it as far as it might need to go.
If I were in the foil business I would be reading the patent and intervening. Even if the patent is awarded a post-award intervention can limit or eliminate liabilities. Most of the new patent legislation over the past ten years came about because the patent office went nuts and became political.
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Patents! Patents! All I see are STRAPS, STRAPS, STRAPS.
I mean it's only Dave Kalama for god's sake. He actually looks quite happy.
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The handful of guys here SB / Ventura area ( of which I will be one shortly ) are not using straps with SUP foils.
The ability to micro adjust foot placement and not have to insert feet in straps is preferable it seems.
After learning to foil with a kite a couple years ago. I ended up taking off rear strap on the foil board.
I like it much better - I can micro adjust back foot placement and I'm not locked in with both feet if I crash. Had a couple close calls when using front and rear straps that could have been serious.
Thinking I'll be strap free with SUP foil.........
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^ nice filming. I figured it would be pretty hard to keep up.
SUP board = Cessna
SUP foil board + Millenium Falcon
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More footage of DK I took a couple days ago. I'm on my 11 footer and still can't keep up with the foil. :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4ZawYOX5wM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4ZawYOX5wM)
I post more footage on my Instagram, you can check'um https://www.instagram.com/jasonihall/ (https://www.instagram.com/jasonihall/)
We need a crash video. We need to see the real world coming at us.
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A crash w/ straps could be very nasty if you could not bail away in time. Did a face plant one time on my race SB with hard boots - and was shocked at the level instant pain even on spring slush. Is a sensation you never forget. On a strap foil can def see an ankle or knee blowing out if torqued. Maybe the straps are easier to balance at first though vs micro adjust. Probs is easy to remove the straps though. Look at how Charlie pushes off from his board as he bails -
https://youtu.be/-oyBRjT6jTE
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i have mixed feelings on the strap thing I'm waiting to see how the go foil feels when it arrives as to weather to try them or not. I could learning to bail and bail early is pretty important to avoid a face full of carbon daggers
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How close the foil gets looks kinda scary in this screengrab -
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maybe not to sure it doesn't feel to bad going off the back like that the worse one is getting to much lift on your toes and it high sides you and you land right on top of it, i have a few near miss before learning to just eject out the back.
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^ nice filming. I figured it would be pretty hard to keep up.
SUP board = Cessna
SUP foil board = Millenium Falcon
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Would suspect you will probs have a much easier time of it on the GoFoil. ;)
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i hope so it will be interesting to see, although getting a little frustrated with the customer service at the moment, i don't think email response is there strong point.
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Three guys and a dog. They'll get better.
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i hope so it will be interesting to see, although getting a little frustrated with the customer service at the moment, i don't think email response is there strong point.
I messaged Alex on their Facebook page and got a response in less than 24hrs.
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Here you go....catching air
https://instagram.com/p/BPQrBvmDvVU/
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i hope so it will be interesting to see, although getting a little frustrated with the customer service at the moment, i don't think email response is there strong point.
I messaged Alex on their Facebook page and got a response in less than 24hrs.
I paid my deposit back when they were first opened the pre order then then told it was not going to be the dw foil so said I would wait for that. I got a email on the 10th saying they were ready to ship the maliko which I emailed back to straight away. I did not hear anything after a few days so sent them a message on facebook, they replied to that after 3 day and said, try sending my original email again to which I did and backed up with another message saying let me know if you do not receive my email that was 3 days ago and still no reply on ether platforms so have no idea but they are obviously posting daily on facebook , a bit fed up as they have had my money since mid last year. I do however have a radical new board design I'm very keen to build and to once I can get my hands on a foil out here in aus.
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Neil Pryde announced their windsurf RS race class foil price. 699 pounds. $876 converted to USD.
This is a Tuttle box aluminum design.
That confirms to me $899 SUP foils will be here soon from somebody.
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Not sure Aluminum is the right material for foils?
yes it is cheaper than Carbon but why take the interum step(cost more in the long run than buying the right one the first time) my guess is its going to be like windsurfing masts (if its not carbon its worthless in most applications)
The way I see it (for whatever that may be worth)a foil needs
- Componentized (not molded one piece)Mast, Wings and Fuselage all seperate
Carbon constructed
Deep Tutle Box connection to board (less kiting where bolt thru is std)
Supported by a reputable company In case something is wrong
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i hope so it will be interesting to see, although getting a little frustrated with the customer service at the moment, i don't think email response is there strong point.
I messaged Alex on their Facebook page and got a response in less than 24hrs.
I paid my deposit back when they were first opened the pre order then then told it was not going to be the dw foil so said I would wait for that. I got a email on the 10th saying they were ready to ship the maliko which I emailed back to straight away. I did not hear anything after a few days so sent them a message on facebook, they replied to that after 3 day and said, try sending my original email again to which I did and backed up with another message saying let me know if you do not receive my email that was 3 days ago and still no reply on ether platforms so have no idea but they are obviously posting daily on facebook , a bit fed up as they have had my money since mid last year. I do however have a radical new board design I'm very keen to build and to once I can get my hands on a foil out here in aus.
They definitely are slow on email...but, they do eventually get back to you...
I was told that they should start shipping on the other side of Chinese New Year which is happening right now...
I ordered a number of them...so they have a pile of my money, too...I'm looking forward to getting the tracking numbers...
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Not sure Aluminum is the right material for foils?
I see your point. My windsurf foil fast flexes a lot and would fatigue out like our masts did in the old days, if it were aluminum.
But kites and SUP don't bend the mast.
Neil Pryde has done a nice job on their Tuttle head design in aluminum.
Plus, isn't the Naish SUP foil mast aluminum. I thought I saw a photo somewhere.
Btw, there is no weight savings with carbon on some of these foils. The LP carbon windsurf foil is as heavy as aluminum. Shocking, I know.
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i hope so it will be interesting to see, although getting a little frustrated with the customer service at the moment, i don't think email response is there strong point.
I messaged Alex on their Facebook page and got a response in less than 24hrs.
I paid my deposit back when they were first opened the pre order then then told it was not going to be the dw foil so said I would wait for that. I got a email on the 10th saying they were ready to ship the maliko which I emailed back to straight away. I did not hear anything after a few days so sent them a message on facebook, they replied to that after 3 day and said, try sending my original email again to which I did and backed up with another message saying let me know if you do not receive my email that was 3 days ago and still no reply on ether platforms so have no idea but they are obviously posting daily on facebook , a bit fed up as they have had my money since mid last year. I do however have a radical new board design I'm very keen to build and to once I can get my hands on a foil out here in aus.
They definitely are slow on email...but, they do eventually get back to you...
I was told that they should start shipping on the other side of Chinese New Year which is happening right now...
I ordered a number of them...so they have a pile of my money, too...I'm looking forward to getting the tracking numbers...
It's been over two weeks now since I was told it was ready to ship and not a word via FB or email.
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There are a few different foils available now and a few are using Ali masts. I dont think there should be much strength issue for sup with Ali masts but they are heavy. The naish has a Ali masts with Ali Tuttle head and Ali fuz and composite foil, it's defiantly on the heavy side and even if it's not a issue on the water on the beach it will defiantly slow you down. With proper pre preg autoclave built there should be a good weight saving to be had in carbon but it would cost. Like everything you chose what you want to pay for!
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https://youtu.be/Rck4alEq9NI
https://youtu.be/uixcVOQeVEU
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https://youtu.be/mS27yfREaJM
https://youtu.be/BSxaybi-0Xs
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Some video from Horue. One would think they would be coming out with a low speed sup foil soon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqW8t2ViLPk
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This is so cool! We have been riding the hydrofoil behind boats and making tbars and wings to get 25+ feet off the water!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGVirl7OLPw
Had an opportunity to ride with Rush Randle on the North Shore behind a wave runner and use the waves as a kicker. He surfed on a wakeboard with snowboard boots with a foil and landed a flip in the wave. Super Cool!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJSH2CbPAOg
These surfing tbar applications are much thinner and lighter... interesting...
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Patents! Patents! All I see are STRAPS, STRAPS, STRAPS.
I mean it's only Dave Kalama for god's sake. He actually looks quite happy.
The straps are for pitch control but theres a new Gen of foils due out that have much better control. Initially a single piece foil with development continuing...
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Surffoils, is that you from sways? Welcome either way but if so, I've watched your work for years.
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Hi Surfcowboy, Yes Im the same guy from Sways. Foiling is an interesting offshoot of so many water sports. From what I know in the recreational arena, there were a water ski guy Walter Woodward back in the 1960's who made basic ladder foils for his water skis for towing behind boats, later in 1990, 2 guys made a sit down towing version called the Air Chair which went on to be Its own sport with the long strut that we know but with full Aluminium foils.
At some point around 2006 Laird Hamilton cottoned on to the idea and put one of the Aluminium foils onto a snowboard or something similar with boots and blew everyone away. And it stopped there.
But for me that's where it started. Ive hand built about 130 foil setups from glass, carbon, thermoplastics, Aluminium but only for shortboard surfing. And a bit of prone and SUP. There are videos and stills of people surfing my foils in the surf as far back as 2013, prone, standup, all styles but the foil design is for beach and reef breaks, tube-riding, bottom turns and cutbacks in hollow breaking waves.
The Horue guys are killing it for diversity on Kitefoils and then SUP foiling started, initially on downwinds chasing runners on longer boards, quickly moving to shorter board length but the foil design is basically the same as the Air Chair foils...a long single strut /mast with a 2 foil setup, larger foil in front and trailing foil set at a-Ve AOA. A highly successful setup creating lift from the principles of Bernoulli.
And how great has it developed now ! So many startup Foil manufacturers making great designs, so many amazing videos to feast on and Theres a great future in foil design to come.
However foiling is a lot more than a single submerged twin foil setup. 8)
Foiling has passed by the regular surfing industry/market but SUPs are the perfect vehicle for foils, and the future of SUP foil design relies on the manufacturers, as soon as one company innovates, the rest will follow.
As long as people are buying into SUP oiling it will get so much better and easier and cheaper.
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Love it man. Your bodyboard foil was great and such a well executed design.
Check out what PonoBill is cooking up with the geezer foil. And then of course SupUK is doing great stuff. This is a fun and open minded crew. Glad to have you on here.
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SURFFOILS,
I am shocked with the current foil frenzy that a foilcraft hasn't been developed for downwind sit down yet. That is a natural. Twice the power of SUP for a double bladed paddle, same swell energy. The boat itself could be greatly reduced from any current form. I would love to see creative guy with foil experience take a crack at that. Someone is going to turn that industry on it's head.
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^ no doubt they will
However sit-down ain't for me. I absolutely hated the sit down aspect of the airchair. One feels so handicapped and cramped.
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Yeah, you could sit on the geezer foil. I'm thinking of a walker frame for it if my knee goes much weaker, but yeah. With a surface penetrating foil you'd have two options for pitch control--a surface sensor managing AOA or put the chair on slides. Don't need a huge amount of control, the foils self-stabilize a bit by losing area as the nose rises.
I'm chafing at the bit to get back to work on this and other projects. We'll probably be leaving San Diego in a week to head back to Hood River. It's been nice, living among the lotus-eaters, but it's time to get back to my shop.
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SURFFOILS,
I am shocked with the current foil frenzy that a foilcraft hasn't been developed for downwind sit down yet. That is a natural. Twice the power of SUP for a double bladed paddle, same swell energy. The boat itself could be greatly reduced from any current form. I would love to see creative guy with foil experience take a crack at that. Someone is going to turn that industry on it's head.
I'm sure you heard about the Flyak http://www.keystonekayaks.com/new_kayak_019.htm
It's been around for a while, I'm not sure if anyone has tried it on downwinders.
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I am imagining something much smaller (waveski size ?) with a foil setup similar to the current SUP/ surf foils with an integrated rudder. It seems like you could replace the maintenance pumping with paddling as you should always be within reach of the water. Possibly a shorter mast would work. Possibly a lower drag foil could be used. You could likely control pitch with upper body position.
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the issue would be the turbulent surface region on wind chop, makes control quite difficult and can demand some fairly large weight movements on your feet let alone on your ass while trying to paddle
if the foil is within 200-300mm of the surface you are affected quite alot by the waves and then add to that the weight and leverage of a ski swinging round out there infront and you will see why it hasnt been done. something like this is extremely hard to fly on your feet, now try sitting down!
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Hi Container,
That board looks like 12 feet or so. I am thinking 7 to 8 feet. You are thinking harder seated? I would expect the opposite.
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A small kayack with a sliding seat like a rowing boat perhaps. Once I get my foils built I will happily try then on anythinh !
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Now , do you choose a foil that comes from flat water ski-boat foiling background or from a surfing pedigree ?
The early ski boat foils have a single mast with a twin foil setup where the back foil digs down into the wave creating drag to promote an uplift of the bigger main front foil. And then when riding you have to balance that negative grip to create a smooth positive lift.
The single mast means you need a thick board to support your weight and the overall lift is dependant on constant flow over the NACA foil shape. But is that ski boat foil setup right for surfing ?
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I keep thinking that a little carbon waveski like the image below (possibly smaller) with a relatively low drag foil would be a blast for downwind. I have paddled one of these things in tiny non breaking waves and if you think it is easy to get in on a SUP... It feels like you have twice the power of a single SUP blade and obviously loads more than when surfing. I am not sure what foil design would be best but it would be nice to stick with a single mast, double foil setup if workable.
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/55195b88e4b0d6bbb553b35d/t/557ddd42e4b0d0b21b8a18c7/1434312060119/?format=1500w)
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It's an interesting idea, and certainly feasible. I do think you need to look more at sailing/boating than skiing/kiting for design since your ability to control pitch will be limited. It would probably be best not to worry about pitch at all, which to my mind suggests surface-piercing rather than submerged foils.
Alternatively, a long fuselage or two masts might make a better platform. You could buy the foil bits of a moth and shorten the masts. Moths use a sensor wand to control pitch. I think you'd need different foil blades, the high aspect, relatively small wings of a moth are designed for a large range of speed, but mostly fly at 10mph+. I think you'd need low aspect foils with a thick foil profile and lots of square inches. The moth foils are fairly complex, the wand moves a bellcrank on top of the mast that moves a pushrod running down the mast, which changes the AOA of the foil. The rear foil is the rudder and a screw inside the rudder extension drives a pushroad to adjust hull trim angle. Anyone who has ever cranked the rudder of a moth too quickly understands what high speed instability does. Google "international moth crashes".
(http://d19vj6yy87fjj8.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/moth_diagram.jpg)
But my experiments will be with surface piercing. I don't have any faith in my ability to finely control pitch with my lurching around.
Get the boat you want and we'll stick Geezerfoil II or III on it.
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It's an interesting idea, and certainly feasible. I do think you need to look more at sailing/boating than skiing/kiting for design since your ability to control pitch will be limited. ...
Exactly!
It can be done sitting down but it looks [and feels] like you're extremely constipated and trying to squeeze one out.
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It can be done sitting down but it looks [and feels] like you're extremely constipated and trying to squeeze one out.
Hi Yugi,
Do you mean seated paddle sports in general or that you picture it being more so on a foil?
I guess we won't know until we try, but in an OC1 for instance you have quite a bit of pitch control by shifting your upper body. As I would hope that the pumping (SUP and Surf) would be replaced by the ability to paddle on the foil I envision this being much less of a requirement. For getting it initially flying I am looking at the seated air chair video and the weight shift is almost imperceptible. Granted, more speed and power there.
I agree that this would likely work with your setup as well Bill. I think that body pitch control would be the most fun if it is feasible. That seems like it could be a great feeling.
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Way more so for foiling since it’s far more about trimming. As soon as you foil in surf stance you need to press on front foot. Sitting down as soon as you feel it foil you must act very constipated. Footstraps are key.
The AirChair guy making the weight shift look almost imperceptible is incredible skill.
What would be a great feeling?
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With the air chair from what I rember when I used one back in the 90's pitch control was done all through raising your arms which changes were you are getting pulled from and there for the angle its was not through any weight shifting realy
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What would be a great feeling?
The combination of the speed and glide of the foil (with pitch and roll being controlled by body motion) coupled with the additional power of a dual blade setup for glide maintenance and linking. Full recognition that the air chair control in that video shows mastery.
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It's an interesting idea, and certainly feasible. I do think you need to look more at sailing/boating than skiing/kiting for design since your ability to control pitch will be limited. It would probably be best not to worry about pitch at all, which to my mind suggests surface-piercing rather than submerged foils.
Alternatively, a long fuselage or two masts might make a better platform. You could buy the foil bits of a moth and shorten the masts. Moths use a sensor wand to control pitch. I think you'd need different foil blades, the high aspect, relatively small wings of a moth are designed for a large range of speed, but mostly fly at 10mph+. I think you'd need low aspect foils with a thick foil profile and lots of square inches. The moth foils are fairly complex, the wand moves a bellcrank on top of the mast that moves a pushrod running down the mast, which changes the AOA of the foil. The rear foil is the rudder and a screw inside the rudder extension drives a pushroad to adjust hull trim angle. Anyone who has ever cranked the rudder of a moth too quickly understands what high speed instability does. Google "international moth crashes".
(http://d19vj6yy87fjj8.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/moth_diagram.jpg)
But my experiments will be with surface piercing. I don't have any faith in my ability to finely control pitch with my lurching around.
Get the boat you want and we'll stick Geezerfoil II or III on it.
to simplify things rather than having elevators on the wing and lots of push rods ect the bog boats just rake the foils forwards or back to change the trim it may be simpler to do however it would only need tiny movements. The price of moth foils would be fare beyond what anyone would want to pay but there is another similar boat called the wazp that is worth considering as it uses aluminium foils http://www.waszp.com/ (http://www.waszp.com/)