Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: Esteroali on November 07, 2016, 12:27:39 PM
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I am a 55 year old female racer and use a Hippo Stick AL 7.5. I am looking to get a second paddle that has a shaft with more flex and smaller blade to increase cadence. I tried a Riviera Bump 7 that felt good and still want to try a Kialoa Pipes which I think was designed for women. Here's my question.... How do total square inch area of blade relate to blade length, width and paddle characteristics. Is it an individual thing where a paddle feels one way or another as far as catch and power or quickness go or are there certain design characteristics that make one paddle perform a certain way. Thanks.
Open to other paddle suggestions.
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I am a big fan of Werner paddles. To your question, Werner's long slender blade is a design that is significantly different than a tear drop (QB or others). So what you suggest about it being an "individual thing" is always going to be true to some extent, but different blade designs will sure effect that 'individual thing'. Maybe tear drop shapes are better represented in racing results because you have all of the surface area in the water, as opposed to varying the submerged portion on a longer blade. The blades also have a bit of a hook shape for the catch. I also mention them because they have optional, so-called 'small fit' shafts available on their lightweight paddles (Grand Prix and Trance - 85ish sq), that should provide additional flex. There are genuine paddle experts on this site. I'm sure they'll chime in. BTW, not affiliated with Werner, except I give retailers money and get paddles in return 8)
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Of course blade area is related to width and length of blade. But it's easiest just to worry about area until you know what suits you best. Quickblade paddles provide a very handy general guide to area and paddle length here:
http://www.quickbladepaddles.com/SUP-paddle-sizes/
Generally, the paddle-specific brands (eg. Quickblade, Kialoa, Ke Nalu, Werner, ZRE etc) IMO make better paddles than those that make boards and everything else as well. Most brands now have paddles aimed at women or the smaller paddler.
You shouldn't go too wrong with a decent paddle from one of the paddle specialist brands. What size and length you go depends on your body and paddling style and what you are doing (flat water cruising, racing, surf etc). But for many women something between 80-90 sq inches is a reasonable starting point. It's generally better to go too small rather than too big so if you are in doubt go smaller: many women (and many men) even go 70-80 sq ins. Try to borrow or demo a few paddles and see what feels right. Paddles are as personal a choice as clothes.
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Until recently I used nothing but Werner paddles, and they do make a very good paddle. Then a few weeks ago I took a gamble and ordered a ZRE adjustable paddle with a 75 sq. inch blade. Absolutely love my new paddle. Since you are looking, you might want to also include ZRE in your search.
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Of course blade area is related to width and length of blade. But it's easiest just to worry about area until you know what suits you best. Quickblade paddles provide a very handy general guide to area and paddle length here:
http://www.quickbladepaddles.com/SUP-paddle-sizes/
Generally, the paddle-specific brands (eg. Quickblade, Kialoa, Ke Nalu, Werner, ZRE etc) IMO make better paddles than those that make boards and everything else as well. Most brands now have paddles aimed at women or the smaller paddler.
You shouldn't go too wrong with a decent paddle from one of the paddle specialist brands. What size and length you go depends on your body and paddling style and what you are doing (flat water cruising, racing, surf etc). But for many women something between 80-90 sq inches is a reasonable starting point. It's generally better to go too small rather than too big so if you are in doubt go smaller: many women (and many men) even go 70-80 sq ins. Try to borrow or demo a few paddles and see what feels right. Paddles are as personal a choice as clothes.
I thought I would add Jim Terrell's updated formula for figuring out what's an ideal blade size. I recently used it and it seems to be spot on. Granted this is just a ball-park guide as personal preference will always dominate, but if you don't have any established preferences or can't demo, this formula seems to be a good starting point.
His formula is:
Weight x .25 + 45 = blade size
http://supexaminer.com/2016/10/how-to-choose-your-sup-blade-size-insights-from-jim-terrell/#.WCEHDmNBai4
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How do total square inch area of blade relate to blade length, width and paddle characteristics. Is it an individual thing where a paddle feels one way or another as far as catch and power or quickness go or are there certain design characteristics that make one paddle perform a certain way. Thanks.
Open to other paddle suggestions.
First pic is supposedly 116 all around - next 78 high aspect - next 67 surf according to manufacturer specs. By looking at each blade shape you can tell how each should feel in the catch and power phases. And should give you some idea of its general characteristics. Insofar as quickness - the smaller the blade - requires a faster cadence to go the same speed. Other aspects such as offset and scoops and wings etc come into play plus shaft flex shape and length etc.
Basically we have tried many paddles and like these ones the best especially when price is factored in. 116 for DW - 78 for easy speed - 67 for long distance. Try before you buy is always the best bet. We paid $100 to $200 all in for each of our very light strong perfect flexing 100% carbon or kevlar blade paddles. And have 5 complete paddles we use all the time. My wife actually likes the 116 Vantage 8.5 the best for her style of paddling. So it can be very personal. I like the small 67 for fast cadence speedwork and always use the 116 for any DW. We are both lightweight paddlers that paddle a fair amount all year.
You are doing the right thing by testing different paddles. Every paddle we have ever tried feels different than another. Even within the same model - just a few sq inches in size can be felt pretty easy. Many buy and sell paddles left and right because they never had a chance to ever try it before buying. So you are fortunate like us. It can be costly when you dump your expensive used paddles on CL - plus waste a lot of time learning the nuances of what you now have to use.
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I have been online obsessing over paddles at all of the above mentioned brand websites. I am even more confused. The labels and names don't really help in describing what the paddles actually do or feel like. I wish I could try all before I decide!! I figured I need a blade of abput 80 sq.in and maybe a fiberglass shaft for flex. Won't this make the paddle heavier?
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All around paddle shapes can do everything ok. High aspect is good for easy catch with a good power phase. Surf is good for bigger catch and an easy power phase. Look at the width in the pics at the tip midpoint and shoulders and compare the different shapes.
Try different shapes like this if you can - and you should feel the difference firsthand. An 80 blade should be ok and a fiberglass shaft will have more flex but will make it heavier. We always go for lighter - so we go carbon. But carbon is more expensive than glass.
Look at your HS shape vs the Bump 7 vs the Pipe. And determine what you want to get out of the blade. That should be really quite important to you if you plan to race with it.
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What does high aspect mean?
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What does high aspect mean?
Think of it like an airplane wing. High aspect = longer length and skinnier width ratio.
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Look at the second pic of my Blackfish kevlar blade over the Riviera R8.5 - the BF is narrower vs its length. That is HA. What it means is that the catch tip is not too powerful - and as you get into the power phase of your stroke - power stays on vs going away like in the empty SB surf shoulders. Also it is narrower so you can paddle closer to your rails to get a more vertical paddle shaft. But that question is the exact right type of question for you to ask though. If anything else is unclear just ask. :)
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What does high aspect mean?
For airplane wings, aspect ratio is the ratio of the root width to the length. so high aspect is long and skinny, low aspect is short and wide. The descriptor is also used for fins.
As far as I can tell, paddles are the most personal thing about SUP, and most of the formulas and recommendations are only generally useful. I know tiny people who use huge blades very effectively. I'm a 230 pound moose with bad shoulders who keeps going smaller. Even Dave Kalama, who has a huge Quickblade design named for him as the "Big Mama Kalama" is now using a much smaller blade--because his stroke technique changed. You'll also find that everyone loves their current paddle and thinks it's the best thing ever--they are like religion, only more dogmatic.
So understand that the reason your search is frustrating is because paddles work differently depending on your stroke technique, strength, weight, height, arm length, the kind of paddling you do, and probably your zodiac sign and hat size. Keep looking, keep trying, and make notes. Since you are racing the most important thing is which paddle can you go fastest with. Easy to measure.
Your just going to have to try a bunch, and NO, don't buy a fiberglass paddle. Heavy and slow. Don't buy an aluminum shaft paddle.
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I am a 55 year old female racer and use a Hippo Stick AL 7.5. I am looking to get a second paddle that has a shaft with more flex and smaller blade to increase cadence. I tried a Riviera Bump 7 that felt good and still want to try a Kialoa Pipes which I think was designed for women. Here's my question.... How do total square inch area of blade relate to blade length, width and paddle characteristics. Is it an individual thing where a paddle feels one way or another as far as catch and power or quickness go or are there certain design characteristics that make one paddle perform a certain way. Thanks.
Open to other paddle suggestions.
Yes, there are design characteristics that make one paddle perform a certain way. Someone with a lot of paddle experience can just examine a paddle on dry land and have a good idea how it will perform. The problem is that it would take pages to explain.
Some of the points have ready been covered, such as high aspect vs. Low aspect. Other things to consider are the blade angle. So for instance, low angle blades have a more immediate catch but are harder on the body, and can be more difficult to load the paddle if you aren't good at getting a positive forward angle at the catch. But then again some people with short strokes like Candice Appleby might benefit from it - so it very much depends on your technique. What does loading the paddle mean? Well that's a whole topic of it's own.
Then there are things like dihedrals vs flat blades, or scooped blades vs no scoop etc. These are all attempts to change the way that the blade enters and holds onto the water. Scoops tend to hold onto the water whereas dihedrals direct the flow off the blade. Scoops can change the blade angle at the tip of the blade so change the way the paddle is at the catch, so this has to be factored into the equation. Flat paddles can be good for surfing because they can be good for bracing on a wave and give an immediate catch for wave-catching, but there can be a penalty for some people in terms of flutter during long distance paddling (but some people do not experience this no matter what paddle they use).
Confused? I haven't even started on shaft stiffness and how this interacts with the paddler and the blade and the activity. And then there's shaft shape. And the different types of handle. And the different types of construction, different designs for different types of race, and so on.
Really, your head will be spinning by the end. And you probably don't know yet terribly well what type of technique you have, or what weaknesses your body has that need compensating for in paddle design. So the best way is to try some paddles if you can, and start upon the long slow (but interesting) process of discovering what is right for you and why. It is part of a person's progress as a paddler to get to know these things. And it will affect your race performance so it is worth investing the effort, especially if you have plateaued in your training. So try some paddles and make notes as you have already been advised. And then as your technique evolves you'll find that what you want in a paddle will change anyway. For instance, if your technique is sloppy you can be faster with a bigger blade because you are loading the paddle less efficiently thus smaller blades can slip. But when you can get a really good catch then even a tiny blade will hardly slip at all so you can go smaller for a given weight. But go too small too early in your paddle career and it will be like stirring a cocktail with a swizzle stick.
So, in short, there are certainly answers to your questions. But it soon gets pretty complex pretty quickly and it's all a matter of balance and person-specific ergonomics. So unless you are a total gear obsessive like a lot of us here, the quickest and most certain way for you to know what is right for you is to try a shedload of paddles. So your next question should be "how on earth can I get to demo a whole range of paddles"? That's a pretty tough question in some parts of the world. Good luck - I've now come to the conclusion after owning around 30 paddles and years of paddling that the perfect paddle for me isn't on sale, and so I may need to get a custom... Hard enough with boards, but with paddles you are starting to talk real rarities... We are all still learning, even the paddle designers: SUP is still such a young sport, and thoughts on technique are changing and evolving constantly.
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I have been online obsessing over paddles at all of the above mentioned brand websites. I am even more confused. The labels and names don't really help in describing what the paddles actually do or feel like. I wish I could try all before I decide!! I figured I need a blade of abput 80 sq.in and maybe a fiberglass shaft for flex. Won't this make the paddle heavier?
I've been where you are and I feel your pain. I'll try to simplify your choices based on what you wrote and I'll give you my reasoning.
Echoing fellow zoners, best to stick with speciality paddle brands.
You figured an 80sqi will be good for you, I would agree and probably say, go a little lower, If nothing else a smaller blade will teach you how to improve your stroke technic without creating injuries. Since you wanted to increase your cadence, a smaller blade is the right way to go.
Blade shape, since it's racing you're aiming for and high cadence is a goal, a high aspect blade is what you're looking at IMO, softer entry, better power distribution much narrower blade which will help paddling upwind as well.
Shaft, I would avoid stiff shafts (just to be on the safe side of injuries)
but would not go too flex. I would probably look at oval shaft, I know it gave me more control as a beginner.
After going through these filters, It looks like you are left with only
2 choices:
Quickblade Trifecta 76sqi
ZRE Lightning 75sqi
Both high aspect quality blades with oval shat and smaller palm grip option designed for women and kids. Both generate a good power when used correctly.
I own both and though on paper they sound they same, they are very different.
Trifecta is a hard paddle to master and will force you to preform a good technic, if not, you'll flutter a lot and pull a lot of water on your exit. The payoff is big though and you'll see your stroke improves big time if you put in the time.
The ZRE is very efficient paddle and more forgiving both on less the stellar technic and on the body, but at 75sqi you'll have to load it really well to get the speed. It is also a lot lighter depends on the configuration.
The trifecta will be faster if you'll develop a good technic but it will put more strain on your body over longer distances. The ZRE will preform better when you get tired and your technic is falling apart and will feel better over longer distances. BTW this latest configuration of the ZRE is not on their website but you can call them and they will get you what you need.
I hope that helps with the thought process. Both paddles helped me develop better technic and still helping (this is something you constantly have to work on) although these days I'm leaning more towards the ZRE.
FYI, I'm a male 5'8 @ 175lbr just to put things in perspective.
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Try a Quickblade Flyweight with a carbon shaft and fiberglass blade. The narrower diameter shaft along with the glass blade will have a more forgiving flex then your Hippo, guaranteed.
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Wow that's all great info guys exactly what I was looking for. So here is an idea, I live on a beautiful tidal river in warm sunny SW Florida. How about if I have a Paddle Party and you guys can bring all 40 paddles that you own and let me demo them. Free mango jam and coconut key lime liquor, the best damn legal stuff in a jar ever, to all participants. Do any of these companies demo paddles by mail? If not they should.
One additional question, what is the difference between the two levels of paddles on the ZRE site. Is it worth it to go with the higher option? The flex shaft option iisnt listed there, is that because it's heavier?? Which shaft option is best for me? Does the blemished option make a difference? And WHY do they put all of those goofy stickers on the paddles?
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Excuse me, but what’s with the “higher cadence” objective, and why do you expect a smaller blade do that?
OK, a smaller blade is exquisitely flickable, which reduces your recovery time. However the idea is to set the blade really well and pull yourself on it to propel your craft.
Not saying don’t go smaller blade. Do, but realize you can get a good long power pull in the water with a small blade. The combo of small and powerful is the best of both worlds IMO.
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Good idea with the "paddle party". I'd bring 22 (my current paddle quiver) but I live across the Atlantic.
The ZRE graphics are shamefully bad IMO. They need a serious re-think.
Many of the brands make paddles with graphics aimed to appeal to women. Kialoa and Quickblade in particular. My wife actually doesn't like ones with girly graphics, saying that she doesn't need to advertise her gender. But other women I paddle with take a very different view. Most of the top female athletes however seem fine with paddling plain carbon ones (albeit with sponsor stickers all over them), and I don't think anyone is likely to mistake someone like Candice for a man :) But maybe this is a topic I should be staying well clear of since it's the sort of thing that evokes strong opinions no matter what you say...
It would be interesting to know which model/size/blade angle ZRE Annabel Anderson uses. Of course, although she is a nano-person in physical size, she still generates more power at the blade than 99% of men, mind you. So her choices might be the choices of an outlier.
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Excuse me, but what’s with the “higher cadence” objective, and why do you expect a smaller blade do that?
OK, a smaller blade is exquisitely flickable, which reduces your recovery time. However the idea is to set the blade really well and pull yourself on it to propel your craft.
Not saying don’t go smaller blade. Do, but realize you can get a good long power pull in the water with a small blade. The combo of small and powerful is the best of both worlds IMO.
Yes, quite. A small paddle will only increase your cadence if it slips or you do something different with it. Increased cadence can also mean less time spent pulling and more time in recovery so you need to make sure the quality of your strokes is very good and you are working within the optimum power range. Otherwise you are just spinning your wheels: it may look dramatic but it ain't fast. Danny Ching etc have a famously low cadence and are some of the fastest paddlers on the planet. Annabel Anderson's cadence is slower than Candice Appleby's but I think we'll all agree that in a straight line in flat water Annabel is the fastest in the world.
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^ important stuff to think about when selecting next paddle IMO
just sayin'
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One additional question, what is the difference between the two levels of paddles on the ZRE site. Is it worth it to go with the higher option? The flex shaft option iisnt listed there, is that because it's heavier??
Their cheaper option paddle is offered with a flex shaft which is a little heavier due to Carbon and fiberglass combo.
The higher end flex is their lightest due to thinner shaft wall. This is the model I have and it is so light you can barely feel the paddle in your hand (super strong though). My new ZRE is about 30% lighter than my Trifecta.
If you're going with the factory seconds option, you might as well go with their lower end paddle, there will be a small difference.
I agree about the stickers, they are bad, everyone says so. Good thing they can be easily removed Unlike the QB. I usually remove them within a week or two. I would just ask ZRE not to include the blade sticker, maybe this will sink in that they need to update.
It would be interesting to know which model/size/blade angle ZRE Annabel Anderson uses.
Annabel latest paddle is the same my new one (the lightning custom), with a platinum blade and the super light shaft. At PPG it looks like she was using either the 80 or 85 with the 18inch blade (based on the shape).
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My new ZRE is about 30% lighter than my Trifecta.
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Hello! Now I'm listening...
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My new ZRE is about 30% lighter than my Trifecta.
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Hello! Now I'm listening...
Doesn't lighter mean less material. And less material generally mean less durable?
But if you are someone who wants the very lightest paddles, I don't think Quickblade is particularly the place to go. There is a local brand near me whose all-carbon paddles are about half the price of the Quickblade ones and they are much lighter. Good performance too. But I still use my Quickblades more than anything else: beyond a certain point I'm really not sure that reducing weight makes much difference. However, I'm certainly glad that the 25-30 oz paddles of old have bitten the dust though :)
I'd like to try one of those ZRE paddles. It would be crazy expensive for me to import one from the UK though, and the new designs aren't available here I don't think. I did buy a ZRE a while back, but when it turned up it was so badly finished (the blade wasn't even close to being symmetrical and the whole thing looked generally shabby) that I sent it back. The shaft was very big too, and the handle. But maybe things have changed lately. It has always seemed to me that ZRE has the potential to be market leaders in SUP paddles.
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My new ZRE is about 30% lighter than my Trifecta.
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Hello! Now I'm listening...
Doesn't lighter mean less material. And less material generally mean less durable?
To a certain degree for sure, but not for its intended usage though.
I would probably not use that one when some surf is involved, or if
I'm 200+ LBR. But other than that why would I not use it.
I guess I'm more lucky on that regard since I have a smaller frame thus more options.
If you are doing a lot of upwind paddling, this paddle does make a big difference, you get almost no resistance but you do have to be careful, it is so light an the wind will take it very easily if you let it.
It is also great for downwind as it is so easy to go 90spm in bursts due to its weight and profile
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Lighter does not always mean less durable...different engineering, production methods, cloths, resins, etc.
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On some videos posted in a different section of the Zone recently, John Puakea said it's about time in the water, not stroke rate.
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Lighter does not always mean less durable...different engineering, production methods, cloths, resins, etc.
No, of course not. But the question is whether it does in this particular case. I'd have thought that if there was a way to make his paddles lighter and at the same time more durable, whilst maintaining cost and performance, someone like Jim Terrell (or Ke Nalu for that matter, since they are not extraordinarily light either) would be all over it. Paddle technology is pretty basic, it's not as if there will be a patent or trade secret that will be preventing manufacturers from using the best method.
Is this ZRE paddle shaft stiff? The one I tried was very stiff. That might be another reason for different layups, perhaps - if you wanted to have different flex characteristics.
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Is this ZRE paddle shaft stiff? The one I tried was very stiff. That might be another reason for different layups, perhaps - if you wanted to have different flex characteristics.
The ZRE lightweight shaft has nice flex to it. His stiff shaft, which I had on my first one was too much for me. This one is very different. It's slightly more stiff then their carbon-fiberglass combo shaft.
If I compare it to my Trifecta with the oval shaft, it is more flexible as well
The thing with ZRE is that they make custom paddles right in their US factory and it's not imported production shafts as I believe its the case of QB so they can accommodate as they did in our group order for the NYC members.
If you want a 75sqi blade with more flex in your shaft, they'll do it like they did in mine, he just told me not to go surf ocean waves with it, which was never my intent. If I would, I have a better suited shaft for that, more stiff and super strong.
The fact is, when you go custom, you have more options, still, the price is lower than the QB either way.
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Cadence increases with a smaller blade because you can get a fast flick recovery - especially noticeable when paddling upwind in around 15 kts. And when power sprinting it pays to have slippage with a faster cadence. That is really noticeable if you sprint yourself or watch the Lost Mills video.
But always best to just time yourself over 5 miles or over sprints - to find out what works best for you when. 7.2 mph while sprinting is fast enough for a crappy average joe paddler like me. But these guys show how it really should be done. Would like to see their GPS track and max speed graphs as well.
https://youtu.be/NU-keh72kQg
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Wow that's all great info guys exactly what I was looking for. So here is an idea, I live on a beautiful tidal river in warm sunny SW Florida. How about if I have a Paddle Party and you guys can bring all 40 paddles that you own and let me demo them. Free mango jam and coconut key lime liquor, the best damn legal stuff in a jar ever, to all participants. Do any of these companies demo paddles by mail? If not they should.
One additional question, what is the difference between the two levels of paddles on the ZRE site. Is it worth it to go with the higher option? The flex shaft option iisnt listed there, is that because it's heavier?? Which shaft option is best for me? Does the blemished option make a difference? And WHY do they put all of those goofy stickers on the paddles?
Esteroali,
If you are interested in ZRE, you might want to give them a call. They are very helpful and will answer any questions you might have.
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Not to do with paddles - but look how low that racer stands below water level in that 2017 Sprint. :o
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Update on paddle purchase.
I waited a couple months to post this because I wanted to get a feel for the paddle.
There was definitely a learning curve paddling with my new paddle. Grabbing the water at the catch was initially very difficult and I had a hard time keeping the board straight. After a couple months I feel much more comfortable with the paddle and have no issues. When I ordered the paddle I spoke directly with Bob Zaveral. He helped me through the whole process. I wanted a 78sq. in. blade that was 6.5 wide. I got a superlight shaft that has a bit more flex, thinner walls, and a contoured smaller hand grip.
The paddle is well made and SUPER LIGHT. I was able to hop on a group sale from NYC and get 25% off. Total cost to door 350.00
Conclusion: I love the paddle. I am able to hold a higher cadence and it "seems" easier on my body than the Hippo stick 7 I was using. I don't think the new paddle is any slower or faster but I am able to keep a higher rate with less effort and go the same speed. It definitely too some getting used to but it seems to have forced me to improve my catch.
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Lightness is not simply the reciprocal of durable. A lot of the weight in cheap and even not-cheap paddles are cosmetic fixes like clearcoat, or clumsy and heavy shaft to blade connections. 111 grams is amazing. The ONLY way to get that light and still survive a single hard pull is excellent materials and excellent engineering.
Still, a paddle that light can be compromised with a deep scratch. Make sure you bag that thing.
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111 grams is amazing...
111 grams is amazing but if you referring to image I posted, it is 11.1oz. Still amazing
but just wanted to set the record straight.
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The paddle is well made and SUPER LIGHT. I was able to hop on a group sale from NYC and get 25% off. Total cost to door 350.00
Conclusion: I love the paddle...
Esteroali, I'm so very happy you like the paddle and glad I could help. Still planning on
Hitting FL later in the winter so maybe we'll get to paddle together.
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Update on paddle purchase.
I waited a couple months to post this because I wanted to get a feel for the paddle.
There was definitely a learning curve paddling with my new paddle. Grabbing the water at the catch was initially very difficult and I had a hard time keeping the board straight. After a couple months I feel much more comfortable with the paddle and have no issues. When I ordered the paddle I spoke directly with Bob Zaveral. He helped me through the whole process. I wanted a 78sq. in. blade that was 6.5 wide. I got a superlight shaft that has a bit more flex, thinner walls, and a contoured smaller hand grip.
The paddle is well made and SUPER LIGHT. I was able to hop on a group sale from NYC and get 25% off. Total cost to door 350.00
Conclusion: I love the paddle. I am able to hold a higher cadence and it "seems" easier on my body than the Hippo stick 7 I was using. I don't think the new paddle is any slower or faster but I am able to keep a higher rate with less effort and go the same speed. It definitely too some getting used to but it seems to have forced me to improve my catch.
Hey Esteroali,
Really glad you like the paddle. Burchas also helped convert me to ZRE, and like you I love it. I hadn’t been on my board for a while and then went out again yesterday. It’s just a joy to use the ZRE paddle.
Oh, and by the way. I went back and read through this thread and came across your earlier post where you offered a “paddle party” with free mango jam and coconut key lime liquor. Since you already have your new paddle I’m thinking there is no need for the party. But then again, since it was Burchas and myself who recommended the ZRE, maybe there’s still some mango jam and coconut key lime liquor for us??? ;D ;D ;D
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ANy time you're important the neighborhood you're welcome to paddle.
I quit drinking but mango jam is still to be had.
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I was only teasing, and since I live in Canada I doubt I’ll be close anytime soon. Do appreciate the offer though. And must admit that mango jam is one of my favourites! :)