Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => SUP Gear Reviews / Newly Acquired / On Order => Topic started by: burchas on October 31, 2016, 12:22:33 PM
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With the 2017 14’x25” Elite, Red Paddle Co really took it up a notch! The good old RSS (Rocker stiffening system) is now joined by the all new FFC (forward flex control) to make up one hell of a stiff board! This model takes the rounded rail/bottom one step farther. I can’t stress enough how rounded it is (see attached images), that, along with the new pintail, translates to a very fast, alas, very tippy board.
After few rides I still can’t decide which is it, faster or tippier. According to some specs I’ve read, this board has the volume of 340 litters, which makes it sit very high on the water with my average weight of 175lbr.
Riding with the usual crew on some usual rides made it very clear that this board is super fast. The guys with the Starboard All-Star 25 had hard time keeping up, especially on the bumps where this board really takes off, that is of course until it sends you swimming. I switched with some people who ride a 24” or 25” boards, non wanted to stay on more than a couple of minutes, “too much leg work” they say.
I think this board RED just killed off-shore’s “will it downwind” series. Sorry off-shore. :'(
Bottom line, this board is a pure flat-water machine and it will give any hard board run for its money. I don’t have any speed tests results yet since I have no pure flat water lake in my vicinity but I can tell that I did register a 7mph once in slack water, with no obvious current or wind assist. This will have to be verified with some true testing so don’t take my word for it.
If however, you’re like me and want to take it to rougher conditions, this board is a great workout machine that will keep your legs engaged at ALL TIMES. Hey RED here is a slogan for you “The Cool Balance Tool™”.
It’s a while now that I’m not getting good leg workouts on my SUPs, worse, with my current 27” and 26” boards it became apparent that it is way to easy to wander-off and just go to touring mode. This board changed that and now I’m back to feeling my legs after a 2-3 hour session. I bought it specifically for that reason so I’ll be more than ready for my upcoming 24” all-water board.
Another fun fact about this board, compared to my RED 2015 Elite, I’m schlepping 10-12LBR less weight. And the difference is felt both on and off the the water. I had this board alone at about 21LBR yet still feels durable as the old one. Time will tell.
The board has 4 really comfortable well placed handles that I’m actually using as a tie-down and leash plugs for the leash and the dry bag with all the equipment in it (pump, carry bag etc) Deck pad is also very comfortable and grippy.
Red did a good thing changing the fin box this year, they say it’s an 8” us box, but don’t expect to put a fin with an 8” base in it, 7.75” is what will fit in. Still, the box is improved over last 2 years models and can accept many standard fins.
This year Red realized that they have to up their fin game so They are offering Larry Allison fins as an up-sellll to their existing inadequate fin. If you are going to buy a fin specifically for this board (which you’ll probably need), you better off buying a click-it fin for a 3 second installation and removal.
Make sure to buy Larry Allison's Click-it for inflatables that has a dual lock safety pin for these specific boxes. Either Dolphin pivot fin or the more aggressive dolphin keel fin will do. For pure flat-water you can even go down to the 7’ stinger if you’re willing to give up some stability. Almost anything will be better than their stock fin. I would avoid other brands click-in fins as they do not include a safety pin and the flexible fin box walls will eventually loosen, leaving you at risk of losing your fin.
The Red Titan Pump is, as with previous models, very helpful. if I’m diligent enough with my pumping, I could get it pumped to 22PSI ( which seems to be the recommended pressure ) in 5 minutes. Add 3-4 minutes to the setup if installing the RSS and the FFC. Another minute for the fin. Realistically, don’t expect to be on the water in under 15 minutes and longer on the cold days when Impaired by thick gloves.
The boards carrying bag is a good comfortable bag to take with you when traveling, though It’s not the bag I use for the day to day, for that I have a very lightweight mesh bag that doesn’t absorb water and doesn’t require constant cleaning.
I can’t find bad things to say about that board other than its price tag, at $1799 is seems RED is following the bad trend in this industry to jack-up prices out of the reach of many people who do want to race.
Good thing we have Julian of Green Water sports to give us zoner discounts and first class customer service. Julian was able to score me the this board 1 month before my contact at RED North America was able to!
Pros:
- Fast, really fast board! Catches every bump
- Dual stiffening systems (RSS & FFC)
- Lightweight ( especially whencompared to previous models)
- Good ergonomics (handles, deck pad, velcro attachments for RSS battens)
- Better fin box. can accommodate many current fins
- Great Titan pump (now comes with several adapters for other applications)
- Great Quality bag and accessories
Cons:
- Very Tippy in anything other than flat water (you’ll be rolling over even on your knees)
- Stock fin is a joke
- Overpriced
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Great review, thanks.
I guess this is more an exercise in iSUP marketing than an attempt to actually sell many since it will be too tippy for most. I wonder if it would really have been much slower with a wider tail - it might have made tracking and stability so much better that it would have compensated in the real world for any theoretical loss of speed. But as I say, to have created an iSUP that can genuinely compete with many hard boards may be the greater aim - as an attempt to remove the iSUP stigma.
Very interesting indeed.
I'm hoping someone comes up with a 3-piece hard boards in a large but air-friendly suitcase.
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Clearly RedPaddle went for a racing steed. They were fast before, now even faster.
Thanks for the review. Let us know your progression in becoming comfortable on it.
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Hi burchas,
Great write up. Glad you're enjoying the challenge and you'll find your balance in no time I'm sure. This is Red's out and out racing board, their halo board. The 2016 14' Elite is now the 14' Race so there is still a board for the more touring and leisure inclined paddle.
https://greenwatersports.com/8126/red-paddle-co-2017-stand-up-paddle-board-product-guide
The fins: I have some Larry Allison fins waiting for me back at the warehouse that I'll check out on Wednesday. The stock fin is a nice shape but now that so many other models come with click in FCS 2 Connect fins, seems like it could have had a nicer fin, or at least a tool-less fin.
https://greenwatersports.com/8280/fcs-connect-sup-fins-fast-and-easy-to-use
In this first batch I've got 1x 14' Elite left, but plenty of the others. Get in touch for a Zoner deal.
Julian
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Very interesting indeed.
I'm going to make it a little more interesting. I'm waiting for a ventral
fin kit to be installed on this board. I'll probably have it in a month or so.
That should make a difference both in average speed and stability
based on my experience with my 4 fin SIC.
I'm hoping someone comes up with a 3-piece hard boards in a large but air-friendly suitcase.
Take a look at the RUM RUNNER 12.5:
http://kayaks.point65.com/en/category/5540
It's probably not what you had in mind but at least there is something out there the can check some boxes.
My first choice for my custom 2 piece SIC was actually to have it in
3 pieces, based on the RUM RUNNER 12.5. Mark's logic took me off this idea to the 2 piece board. I'm glad he did.
A hardcore paddler like you A10, what would you do with a 3 piece board?
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Burchas - I'd fly to Maui, Melbourne, Cape Town etc and join the crews there on their downwinders :)
Maybe I'd stop off and see Offshore in HK along the way...
I don't fancy the Maliko run on an iSUP, or Cape Town in 40 knots on one. Red Paddle have sure raised the bar here for flat water racing iSUPs but it would take a lot of changes in the technology before I'd use one for serious downwinding, especially unsupported.
Traveling to downwind has currently got to be the biggest logistic hurdle there is for SUP. A 14fter in a suitcase could change all that.
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Very interesting indeed.
I'm going to make it a little more interesting. I'm waiting for a ventral
fin kit to be installed on this board. I'll probably have it in a month or so.
...
Cool!
Make sure you measure twice before drilling. You don't want to mess up a nice new board.
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Cool!
Make sure you measure twice before drilling. You don't want to mess up a nice new board.
Good advice yugi, I'll measure twice, maybe even 3 times, but I'll be very hesitant to drill into an iSup ;D I'll stick to glue (pun intended)
Burchas - I'd fly to Maui, Melbourne, Cape Town etc and join the crews there on their downwinders :)
Maybe I'd stop off and see Offshore in HK along the way...
A10, I Hope this is not what keeping you from going to all these places.
I could have easily taken my 2 piece board to Maui and Hood river this summer. It's just like taking 2 surf boards which is still allowed by at the airlines.
I opted not to since It was a lot easier and cheaper to rent boards there.
It also has the advantage to get different board every day so you get to match board to conditions or maybe try board you haven't tried before.
But if you are stuck on that idea, I can tell you that the 2 piece board is as good as a regular board. most people who tried it didn't even notice it's a 2 piece until I told them.
I covered just about every condition I would normally do with a regular board, my only reservation is taking it to the surf, but that's mostly because I'm a novice surfer and wouldn't be able to handle the board safely.
Plus, with all the schooling we got from you over time here, I think they would just give you the boards for free just to get some pointers. 8)
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I think this board RED just killed off-shore’s “will it downwind” series. Sorry off-shore. :'(
Okay Burchas.. You laid the gauntlet down... video coming soon... ;D
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Burchas - I'd fly to Maui, Melbourne, Cape Town etc and join the crews there on their downwinders :)
Maybe I'd stop off and see Offshore in HK along the way...
I don't fancy the Maliko run on an iSUP, or Cape Town in 40 knots on one. Red Paddle have sure raised the bar here for flat water racing iSUPs but it would take a lot of changes in the technology before I'd use one for serious downwinding, especially unsupported.
Traveling to downwind has currently got to be the biggest logistic hurdle there is for SUP. A 14fter in a suitcase could change all that.
Area 10. You are welcome here anytime. Downwind season is upon us, so the earlier the better. Don't worry about travelling with a board. There's one Zoner here at least who has nearly as many boards as you :o
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I think this board RED just killed off-shore’s “will it downwind” series. Sorry off-shore. :'(
Okay Burchas.. You laid the gauntlet down... video coming soon... ;D
Oh Man, you cracked me up ;D
can't wait to see that. You're Da Man.
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Thanks for the review Burchas. Very cool concept - an inflatable that's as fast as many hard boards in flat water and in the bumps! I think that would be a first. Love the 21lb weight also.
The round shape and pin tail remind me of my Ace - could be one reason why it catches bumps so well. I like your idea of taking it out in rough water. Let us know how you progress on it.
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The round shape and pin tail remind me of my Ace - could be one reason why it catches bumps so well.
I thought about it as well after seeing yours and off-shore's recent
posts. If only they could do dug-outs on inflatables... right?
Well now that off-shore has set out to do another "will it downwind"
with this board, maybe he could tell us how they compare.
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I think dug-out inflatables might happen - something like the Sea Eagle kayak, where they turned two drop-stitched chambers on their sides to make a stiff, shaped(ish) hull.
(https://www.seaeagle.com/img/ActionShotsNew/Medium/310.jpg)
shaped and designed better for sup, of course.
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Hmm...a dugout iSUP would likely be a real handful in side-winds. Plus, the big advantage of a dugout is that you can stand pretty much at water level. I'm not sure how you'd get the rigidity in the bottom of an iSUP to be able to do this? With a kayak the load is spread over a larger area in the cockpit.
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I've just posted this in the Will it Downwind? Yes or No thread.. I was reluctant to even try this downwinding having had it out on the flat and also in chop several times. This board is TIPPY, but super fast. In the flat I can paddle it as fast as the Ace 14 x 27... Filmed this with the new GopPo Hero 5, and you'll notice the sound quality is better. Also used the inbuilt stabilisation, so images appear crisper.
https://youtu.be/Ggp1kim_Za4
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Nice!
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I've just posted this in the Will it Downwind? Yes or No thread.. I was reluctant to even try this downwinding having had it out on the flat and also in chop several times. This board is TIPPY, but super fast. In the flat I can paddle it as fast as the Ace 14 x 27... Filmed this with the new GopPo Hero 5, and you'll notice the sound quality is better. Also used the inbuilt stabilisation, so images appear crisper.
https://youtu.be/Ggp1kim_Za4
Quality is great. I replied to this video on the other thread.
I see you chose not to go with the 3rd person mount. What makes you decide what to go with, is it certain conditions or just convenience?
I have to say, I find this board so capable, it is the first time I find myself going for my inflatable rather than my SIC for a downbreezer.
Yesterday, on a very light breeze (6mph) I went 5.5 mile downbreezing against the current for (1-1.5 knots) at 4.7 mph average.
on the way back with the current against the wind my average was
6.5mph with peaks up to 8.9mph (testing bursts with my new ZRE Lightning)
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Burchas, Glad you liked this. I have to say the board surprised me and I am impressed. I have used it in one time trial here and everyone was surprised it was an iSUP. SO.. fast it is. I really thought it would be too much of a handful downwinding, but amazingly it seems to get more stable the faster it goes, and the new FFC (Forward Flex Control) pole really seems to stop that flexi-banana-nose thing going on.
I usually only use the 3rd person mount:
a. On a board I know is stable,
b. When I've got a safety boat with me,
c. When several others paddling with me.
I've had a few narrow escapes wearing it when I've fallen and somehow the leash has wrapped around my neck and the 3rd person pole, and the only way to get out of it has been to undo the one buckle and two wraps of velcro that secure the pole around your waist. This is difficult at the best of times. I'm pretty good at calming myself in these situations having spent a lot of time getting rolled in the impact zone when wave sailing (a windsurfer) while holding onto a boom, and sometimes ending up between it and the sail and being unable to unhook the harness. I do carry a floating marine knife tethered to the chest pocket of my CamelBak, but trying to cut through a coiled leash while being choked by it out at sea, is something I'd rather avoid...
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well - it's not a 6" thick bottom. That kayak is open top - more of a canoe. It's for sure an out of the box idea. Maybe a top on the front half - 2" thick top? 2" thick walls? 3" floor?
I also have been wondering why there isn't a solid bit in the bottom - like the under a Zodiak - the inflatable keel - or a rigid tube, either one - to give the front half more of a displacment shape. The Red Paddle stiffener rod on top - if it was slipped into the bottom? Or a 2nd one? would provide an keel shape.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxAwgpWZmxU
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxAwgpWZmxU
Outside of the mistake on the fin box at 13:37 (said it's same as last year which is not) and not mentioning the much more rounded shape, It a pretty good review.
Would love to see them testing it downwind and chop (side chop). Flat water is very narrow scope.
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I have been researching Race iSup's so I can easily travel to some races in 2017. Kinda bummed this sounds so tippy, but with that said my balance has been vastly improved on my 26" wide Lahui Kai - which is fairly tippy (video link to recent choppy water run on my Lahui Kai below). Really want the inflatable race board to work in flat and choppy conditions. Maybe the non-elite 14" is a better way to go? So for this new board is it a 'tippy" you think you would get used to after some time on the board in the crud?
https://youtu.be/VcbRNJxJnmc
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Might take a look at the 14' x 26" Race. Basically the 2016 14' Elite, now called the 14' Race. More stable than just the 1" wider.
https://greenwatersports.com/shop/red-paddle-co-14-race
Got some detailed pics if interested.
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So for this new board is it a 'tippy" you think you would get used to after some time on the board in the crud?
Already took it to some messier water. I think you can get use to it
if you put time on it, I feel more comfortable on it already.
A good fin will give extra stability, like the Larry Allison Dolphin Pivot keel. I'm also going to try his paddle core fitness fin, should be interesting.
The biggest challenge for me right now with this board is heavy side chop on a windy days. On days with 10-15mph winds, its gets pretty tricky if you want turn into the wind due to its shape and volume, you put a lot of leverage on the paddle which leaves you susceptible to balance loss and inevitable drop.
If you can keep your rhythem and speed steady, even in messier conditions, you should have no problem.
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Burchas - side chop is most people's enemy. :D
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^ depends what board you're on
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^ depends what board you're on
^ Indeed.
in said conditions I would not think twice about it on my
SIC. With this board I have to pay extra attention. It could be that
I need more time on this board. only time will tell.
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Are the side handles juxtaposition next to your standing area a problem?
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Are the side handles juxtaposition next to your standing area a problem?
The short answer is NO.
Few more rides on the board I discovered that trim makes a big difference.
While in the previous Elite board Red encouraged you to stand a little forward to overlap your standing area with where the RSS battens are engaged, I found that standing forward, where the FFC system starts, will give you the most responsive, stiff and tippy ride. the flex is very minimized at that point.
But for more stability I found that going backwards, slightly behind the middle handles ( where only you toes overlapping) is a better place to stand, it's not as stiff and your fine is more engaged.
And to your first inquiry. This would definitely be my board for travel.
assuming that one usually travels to a warmer place where cold waters are not an issue and taking a dive or two won't mess you up.
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Since this is relevant, here is a downwind vid for this board.
https://vimeo.com/193949025
Posted originally on this thread with extra side notes
http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,26567.msg339499/topicseen.html#new
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Some other pointers about the board:
- If you're planning going out with it on side chop or side wind, don't pump over 18psi, you'll be a lot more stable.
- If the wind is blowing sideways and it's 15mph or more, save your self the pain and take a more suitable board, you will not be able to maneuver with this board.
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I am really enjoying this thread. I have been seriously considering an inflatable board, but so far have not tried anything that comes close to the 14ft. boards that I currently use. (14 X 29 Connector and 14 X 28? Bark Dominator). I am looking for something with at least similar performance, but is more travel friendly and more durable. This new 2017 looks awesome, but I fear it is probably too narrow for my skill level in true downwind conditions......I could probably handle it on flat water....but when traveling and exploring new waters you never know what you are going to encounter as far as conditions. I wish Red Paddle would make a wider version of this same design (like maybe 27-28) for the older "balance challenged". I like the concept of the new stiffening system....why not incorporate that into some of the other touring boards, etc?
I need to find a dealer in my area so that I can at least try this awesome looking board. (by the way, I really enjoyed the quality of the tests and reviews of this board.....good job!!)
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I am really enjoying this thread. I have been seriously considering an inflatable board, but so far have not tried anything that comes close to the 14ft. boards that I currently use. (14 X 29 Connector and 14 X 28? Bark Dominator). I am looking for something with at least similar performance, but is more travel friendly and more durable. This new 2017 looks awesome, but I fear it is probably too narrow for my skill level in true downwind conditions......I could probably handle it on flat water....but when traveling and exploring new waters you never know what you are going to encounter as far as conditions. I wish Red Paddle would make a wider version of this same design (like maybe 27-28) for the older "balance challenged". I like the concept of the new stiffening system....why not incorporate that into some of the other touring boards, etc?
I need to find a dealer in my area so that I can at least try this awesome looking board. (by the way, I really enjoyed the quality of the tests and reviews of this board.....good job!!)
Hi connector14, Welcome to the Zone!
You should look at the Red Race MSL 14x26. I have the 2015 model and it
is super stable compares to the 2017 14x25 elite. Very good performance as well.
Check out this video of the 2015 model. I did everything possible with it. lots
of open ocean too.
https://vimeo.com/187034530
Be sure to test it though, just to be on the safe side.
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I'm sure the FFC tech will trickle down to more models over time. Here is a video of the 2017 14' Race up close:
https://youtu.be/Hp5iqdvG39A
More info: https://greenwatersports.com/shop/red-paddle-co-14-race
Starboard have the 14' x 28" Racer, but I'm already sold out... but more on the way... https://greenwatersports.com/shop/starboard-inflatable-14-racer
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Which board do you feel is the "stiffest" (between the Starboard and the Red Race 14)?
Stiffness in the standing area is of particular importance to me because of the way I move on the board. If the board is "springy" I have more trouble moving around....it's my biggest weakness, but unfortunately something that I don't seem to be able to change. (some days better than others). :-\
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Hi connector14,
I would say the Red Race 14' is stiffer. Starboard have stepped up their construction for 2017 with a fusion style as well, but Red's MSL is improved for 2017 and is still nicer and with a better finish. The Red board pumps up to 25 PSI whereas the Starboard to 'only' 18 PSI. I paddled a 12' Atlas Deluxe maxed out at 18 PSI (I'm 190lbs and this is a board to load up with my 2 little kids) this morning and still felt it spring in the quite choppy conditions. In similar conditions I've paddled a pre-MSL 12'6" Race with RSS and it wouldn't spring at all. To top it all off, the Red Race 14' also has the RSS battens and they also improve the stiffness of the board where you stand. The battens basically help to spread the load pressure point of your feet over a larger area and preventing the board from flexing at that single point.
In summary, inflation pressure, construction material and quality, and RSS battens, all point towards the Red Race 14 being stiffer.
Julian
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Appreciate your comments and insight. Do you have any experience with Hala Nass? I only mention this because one of the shops I deal with in Hood River, Oregon said they are going to start carrying the Hala Nass brand and they have a new 14ft. board that I am told will be able to downwind nearly as well as a true downwind board. I won't mention any names, but I trust the opinion of the guy that said that. This particular shop also sells SIC and Starboard and based on my needs they didn't recommend either of their inflatables for me...specifically said "not enough rocker and not stiff enough". (this alluding to how they would work downwinding...which is important to me).
I have only seen pics of the Hala Nass and the Uli brands......and compared to the appearance of the Red Paddle Race and the Starboard Race.......they certainly are NOT as appealing. But I realize that is not a good way to rate anything!
Guess I just need to be patient and what for a chance to try, try ....try! :)
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Sorry, I don't have experience with Hala Nass but I'm sure many on the forum have. I've kited the Gorge many years ago and friends have downwinded there. The short sharp chop on the river would not be nice to inflatables. Trust the locals and see what they ride and if you need an inflatable, test them.
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I looked at the Hala Nass. I suspect they recommend it because of its ski jump nose. However it’s too short and wide for my pick for a DW board. Yes, the ski jump nose will help. The hardest part of getting an iSUP to plane is unsticking the nose, which tends to stick to water in front. I’d pick the new Red Paddle Elite with the Forward Flex control rod. However at 25” wide the 14’ Elite is a narrow race boards so not so easy. Second best I’d pick the 14’ Race at 26” wide. The recent year noses are slightly picked up. Just enough IMO.
Then again DWing on an iSUP is never going to be very optimal. Fun, yes, in a stoopid kind of way.
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Then again DWing on an iSUP is never going to be very optimal. Fun, yes, in a stoopid kind of way.
I'll take stopped fun every time if the alternative is sitting at home since you couldn't make
the logistic of a downwind run work.
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Here is a video of the RED 2017 Elite in headwind action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPPY9p62pgU
Note: Using Larry Allison's Spartan fin made the board more
manageable in these conditions. you can read the full review here: http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,31280.0.html