Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Downwind and Racing => Topic started by: PonoBill on August 26, 2016, 10:19:16 PM
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So I didn't expect a very scientific test since I didn't have a lot of time and I know I'm biased against the Larry Allison three fin setup. Feels draggy to me. But I stuck my speed coach on my new Blackfish and did a few flatwater runs. Three fins, one small center fin, three fins with outer two reversed. Using the Mana 90
Average speed:
Three fins 5.47
One fin 4.9
Fins reversed 5.34
Hmmm.
Then I tried my Konihi 95 which felt terrible after the Mana 90
Three fins 5.74
One fin 5.11
Fins reversed 5.55
Well shit. I'm going to have to try the Konihi 84. I had a suspicion that the Mana 90 wasn't fast in flatwater, but it was just gut feeling. I bet the damned 84 is gonna be fastest. So what does this mean, do I need a paddle for flatwater, a paddle for downwinding, and a paddle for surfing? Seems like we all thought the difference was going to be shaft length in those three disciplines, but is it also paddle design?
Oh, and Larry. You were right. But you already knew that.
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So I didn't expect a very scientific test since I didn't have a lot of time and I know I'm biased against the Larry Allison three fin setup. Feels draggy to me. But I stuck my speed coach on my new Blackfish and did a few flatwater runs. Three fins, one small center fin, three fins with outer two reversed. Using the Mana 90
Average speed:
Three fins 5.47
One fin 4.9
Fins reversed 5.34
Hmmm.
Then I tried my Konihi 95 which felt terrible after the Mana 90
Three fins 5.74
One fin 5.11
Fins reversed 5.55
Well shit. I'm going to have to try the Konihi 84. I had a suspicion that the Mana 90 wasn't fast in flatwater, but it was just gut feeling. I bet the damned 84 is gonna be fastest. So what does this mean, do I need a paddle for flatwater, a paddle for downwinding, and a paddle for surfing? Seems like we all thought the difference was going to be shaft length in those three disciplines, but is it also paddle design?
Oh, and Larry. You were right. But you already knew that.
When you went down to one fin, were the empty fin boxes plugged or taped over ? How many runs did you do of each condition - if you list them here, I'll crank out some stats.
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When you went down to one fin, were the empty fin boxes plugged or taped over ? How many runs did you do of each condition - if you list them here, I'll crank out some stats.
UKGM, you saw my previous test. I can tell you that in my test I never plugged the empty fin boxes.
Although Larry did send me these plugs with his kit, according to him this is just a mind game for people who like to overthink, since I fall under this category at times. I had to test it and came up with nothing.
Nothing scientific, just few test runs with and without. Hope that helps.
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That is the neat thing with regards to expectations versus experimentation. Sometimes what you expect doesn't jive with the results from experimentation.
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No, I didn't plug them. I'm going to get some plugs from Larry, and some different cant inserts for the proboxes, I also want to try a bigger center fin. I'm going to race this board at the PPG. I decided after torturing myself at the Gorge Paddle Challenge with my surfboard that it was time to stop whining and train on a 14. I'll get some real data for you UK. I need a lot of time on the water with this board, and there isn't any point to training on it without testing results and optimizing the performance for myself.
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If the testing were done blind such that the rider didn't know the fin setup, then we'd be talking a bit more testing rigour. This and many many runs would be a way to normalize the rider's effort and remove any bias.
Once we get solid empirical results then we can get on with figuring out the why.
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Does this translate to other boards? Or just the infinity Blackfish? Am I correct that Infinity has been using that set up for at least a couple years? If the board has been optimized for that fin set up the differences may not be as dramatic on other designs.
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I tried it today on a downwinder, and did NOT like the fins. I don't think Larry intended these fins to be used for a downwinder, do it's no big surprise. I found the board very hard to steer--sometimes it felt like an old school windsurfer that turned in reverse pressure, sometimes it felt like it just wasn't going to turn no matter what. Not conducive to the kind of downwinding I do, which is heavy on steering to extend the ride and connect. I was basically waiting for the board to randomly point where I wanted to go and then pushing hard.
It also seemed to have a sharply defined top speed. At about 9 mph it felt like someone hit the brakes.
I have one of Larry's downwind fins, so I gave that a short test. Much mo' bettah. I'll give it another go soon, but for the next three days I'm going surfing.
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If the testing were done blind such that the rider didn't know the fin setup, then we'd be talking a bit more testing rigour. This and many many runs would be a way to normalize the rider's effort and remove any bias.
Once we get solid empirical results then we can get on with figuring out the why.
You can't really get that with equipment interventions though so you have to rely on typical statistical techniques to tease out whatever robustness you can find.
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Does this translate to other boards? Or just the infinity Blackfish? Am I correct that Infinity has been using that set up for at least a couple years? If the board has been optimized for that fin set up the differences may not be as dramatic on other designs.
Whet interests me are previous comments about the undraftability of a 3 fin set up. If I could get a set up that would be effective on point to point flatwater racing, I'd look to test a system on a board if it provided a competitive advantage.
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If the testing were done blind such that the rider didn't know the fin setup, then we'd be talking a bit more testing rigour. This and many many runs would be a way to normalize the rider's effort and remove any bias.
Once we get solid empirical results then we can get on with figuring out the why.
You can't really get that with equipment interventions though so you have to rely on typical statistical techniques to tease out whatever robustness you can find.
Certainly, blind trials would be virtually impossible with paddles and boards. But with most fin setups it should easily be possible.
The placebo effect is so strong that tests that don't take it into account are highly suspect. Notice how whenever you get a new board you seem to set a PB soon afterwards? That's most likely the placebo effect in action. Without even being conscious of it, you are cleaning up your technique and trying that 0.5% harder in the belief that your new board or paddle will make you go faster.
I've noticed that the larger the sum of money I've spent, the quicker that new PB happens!
And yes, it could also be that equipment is getting better. But I'm talking about effects above and beyond that.
Trials should really be conducted with several paddlers in order to minimise the placebo effect. Our Australian friends (PT and crew) did an interesting comparison of 14fters of this type a few years ago.
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If the testing were done blind such that the rider didn't know the fin setup, then we'd be talking a bit more testing rigour. This and many many runs would be a way to normalize the rider's effort and remove any bias.
Once we get solid empirical results then we can get on with figuring out the why.
There is no such thing as blind testing for the 4 fin vs single fin setups... As soon as you'll get on the board, before even put in a stroke, you'll feel the difference.
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im not so sure the difference is that large, i would be keen to know how many people could tell there was anything different at all. I have been experimenting today with some new ideas and comparing them all and by feel the differences are all very small and what i did today was with things that you would expect to make a lot larger changes. I think the placebo effect can probably make a larger difference than adding fins
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im not so sure the difference is that large, i would be keen to know how many people could tell there was anything different at al...
Is this based on your experience or you're just guessing? Based on my experience there is a noticeable difference in the side to side resistance of the board hence there could be no blind testing. Other noticeable differences, compare to some large surface fins, is the elimination of the "tug" effect I experienced, such in the case of the Future RUNNER. Also very noticeable difference in cross current and turbulent water conditions.
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from my experience i have been playing with 3 fins for a while now but just fitted the ventral. i could not feel hardly any difference with the rear sides in, the ventral made a small positive difference on the flat but quite a negative difference on the ocean. Considering my board is 21" wide they are quite stable so perhaps it is not so noticeable. The rear fins have been proved to slow the board down it seams and getting extra stability all the way at the tail is never going to be that effective which is why i think the ventral makes a lot more sense in the flat but not in a moving ocean.
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Tried a LA 4 fin modified 25" BW Eradicator with only the ventral and small centre fins in place. The board was extremely stable and very fast without the side twins. Can see adding more fins if you really required crazy side to side stability on flat. But in most cases - would just use the OEM single fin set-up for up down AW use. The 25 is a nice stable board already.
NH was the original owner of the board before it was modified by a zoner. Up in Squamish a year ago - Norm used that board with the OEM fin and he just planed and surfed that board with complete ease. It was crazy to see how easy he pulled away from all of us. And he told us he was slow compared to Connor and Kai. :o
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Ventral is great in flat out speed sprint on flatwater but once you get water movement I feel the same...negative outweighs any positive.
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from my experience i have been playing with 3 fins for a while now but just fitted the ventral. i could not feel hardly any difference with the rear sides in, the ventral made a small positive difference on the flat but quite a negative difference on the ocean. Considering my board is 21" wide they are quite stable so perhaps it is not so noticeable. The rear fins have been proved to slow the board down it seams and getting extra stability all the way at the tail is never going to be that effective which is why i think the ventral makes a lot more sense in the flat but not in a moving ocean.
I would like to know what are the negatives you experience with the ventral on open water? What is the measurements and shape of your ventral.
Fine tuning took some time, long time. But after several months of back and forth with Larry, going from over fined to under fined with several fin configurations, I now have a 4 fin setup that works better than any single, center/ventral configuration in most cases for me.
4x10 twins, 6" stinger and 2x9 ventral. I found it to be the best combination of speed and balance, being able to commit to my best stroke on my high cadence (50 spm) without having to worry about loosing balance.
I usually use variety of center fins with small ventral for my day to day, but when I need to preform, my 4 fin setup is my go to choice.
I do have my winter setup with the 7" stinger and the slower 2.5x12 ventral, but it's a small price to pay considering the other option is 35F water.
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If the testing were done blind such that the rider didn't know the fin setup, then we'd be talking a bit more testing rigour. This and many many runs would be a way to normalize the rider's effort and remove any bias.
Once we get solid empirical results then we can get on with figuring out the why.
You can't really get that with equipment interventions though so you have to rely on typical statistical techniques to tease out whatever robustness you can find.
Certainly, blind trials would be virtually impossible with paddles and boards. But with most fin setups it should easily be possible.
The placebo effect is so strong that tests that don't take it into account are highly suspect. Notice how whenever you get a new board you seem to set a PB soon afterwards? That's most likely the placebo effect in action. Without even being conscious of it, you are cleaning up your technique and trying that 0.5% harder in the belief that your new board or paddle will make you go faster.
I've noticed that the larger the sum of money I've spent, the quicker that new PB happens!
And yes, it could also be that equipment is getting better. But I'm talking about effects above and beyond that.
Trials should really be conducted with several paddlers in order to minimise the placebo effect. Our Australian friends (PT and crew) did an interesting comparison of 14fters of this type a few years ago.
Placebo can often be teased out as its magnitude isn't generally reliable. In other words, do enough runs and you'll see something is wrong (although this could be construed instead as a poor experiment design or conditions).
Using several paddlers may help reduce placebo (or might just create variable levels of individual bias) but might not help as that will only tell you what is good for that specific sample (rather than what you really want to know - i.e. what is good for me). The reality is to just crank out enough runs and really look hard at the stats. Test/retest strategies might be worthwhile too.
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I repeat, the best way is to use several paddlers. Period.
I've earned my living for the last 30 years doing scientific experiments on human performance. If you want your results to be applicable to a population of people rather than to just one, then you need to test a representative sub sample of that population of people.
You can establish proof of principle with a N of one (and I've done that too) for eg. creating a particular method. But that isn't much help here: The fin setup that might make one person faster might make another slower. This happens often with SUP: if you are on a board that is too tippy for you, or your technique is not good, you can sometimes go faster by using a large area fin with a wide base. But once you improve your balance and technique, you will probably find that a smaller area fin with a narrower base will be faster for you.
Using a group of people to test will usually ameliorate any placebo effect since people will differ greatly in terms of their beliefs. One person who is convinced that X fin is fastest will still be faster using that fin so repeat testing doesn't really solve the problem: testing a group of people does (and using multiple runs, balancing the orders of them across the group using eg. a Latin Square design).
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I repeat, the best way is to use several paddlers. Period.
I've earned my living for the last 30 years doing scientific experiments on human performance. If you want your results to be applicable to a population of people rather than to just one, then you need to test a representative sub sample of that population of people.
You can establish proof of principle with a N of one (and I've done that too) for eg. creating a particular method. But that isn't much help here: The fin setup that might make one person faster might make another slower. This happens often with SUP: if you are on a board that is too tippy for you, or your technique is not good, you can sometimes go faster by using a large area fin with a wide base. But once you improve your balance and technique, you will probably find that a smaller area fin with a narrower base will be faster for you.
Using a group of people to test will usually ameliorate any placebo effect since people will differ greatly in terms of their beliefs. One person who is convinced that X fin is fastest will still be faster using that fin so repeat testing doesn't really solve the problem: testing a group of people does (and using multiple runs, balancing the orders of them across the group using eg. a Latin Square design).
This all make sense and to emphasize the complexity of said tests you need to add one more complication: Different Boards.
Based on my discussions with Larry I know that different boards call for different setups. Metrics such as Tail volume, width and rocker and board overall volume and length will dictate the setup.
And than there is the complexity of open water testing. It's all nice and perfect when we test it in the flats but it's almost useless
for me as I rarely get to ride in these conditions.
Just for my own board I had about 20 combinations of setups:
- 5 Center fins
- 4 sets of twins
- 2 ventrals
I'm not a numbers guy, but lets take the 20 combinations, add just the 5 most popular boards on the market, bring 5 paddlers
and lets test it in open water conditions. The end results is nice mixed salad :) not to mention it's a ridiculous undertaking.
For the time being I'll rely on my own tests and read other members tests results and then talk some more to Larry to get his
take on things and maybe suggest an approach.
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Yes - up to a point.
I analysed the data from Robert's first group test, and PT Woody and crew's subsequent 14ft test. And I've conducted several of my own since. And I can tell you that the performance differences you'd find between different fin setups will be so small, over a large number of people, that it would be quite an enterprise to collect enough data to prove differences to normal scientific criteria. The effort and skill required would be pretty trivial for a professional researcher who has some funding behind them, but would be prohibitive for the average Joe paddler.
Does this mean that fin setups make no difference? Certainly not. It just means that a particular setup will suit one person but not another. And one board but not another. And some conditions but not others.
So, my advice is to try to understand some of the basics of what fins do, and fin design (which might take a couple of hours of research to establish), and then try some setups for yourself. Learn what is right for you and your boards by trial and error. And beware of anyone making very broad statements about how "good" a fin is, or how it will improve performance: "for whom, in what board, and in what conditions, and why?" are the questions you need to be asking them. If you don't get a clear and unambiguous answer then be suspicious, IMO.
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The other thing I've noticed is that all the testing done mostly speak to speed performance and neglect
to emphasize the other benefits of the 4 fin which are much easier to prove and more important to me.
To begin with, I didn't subscribed to the 4 fin setup due to improved speed. Although in my tests I did
find the setup to be marginally faster in most cases (but not all), at my level or where I see my self at, It would not worth the hassle.
The added stability, improved tracking, better handling in confused conditions and the ability to avoid close to surface obstacles (namely rocks) definitely worth the hassle, even if it did mean I have to take a slight hit on speed, which I don't 8). For my use case it's a no brainer.
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Empirical testing aside, what are the theoretical advantages/disadvantages of a 3 fin setup vs a single fin on a raceboard? I've never seen the multi-fin setup on anything other than a surf SUP before. Is it to improve performance in BOP or downwind races where some surfing is necessary? Or would it provide any benefits on flatwater too?
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If you want your results to be applicable to a population of people rather than to just one, then you need to test a representative sub sample of that population of people.
......which is exactly why I said it wasn't necessary. The results of any evaluation in this case don't need to be applicable to a population. They only need to be a robust case study - i.e. To know what is needed to be fastest for you (the paddler doing the testing for themselves). A sample group would be detrimental to that aim (in my view). Granted though, to a company themselves (or someone trying to prove the overarching concept), yep, I'm with you all the way - a large population study would be needed..... however, I suspect that you would not be able to obtain the statistically recommended sample size.
The other thing is using different board and fin combinations just won't help because no single design feature created in isolation will work wholesale statistically reliably. It's entirely plausible that a board with a heavy concavity (like an Allstar) may not benefit at all whereas something very flat may well benefit enormously.
As you know, I'm working on some fin testing at the moment but the real area of interest to me is whether you can start detecting measurable changes in performance with smaller and smaller incremental changes in equipment when field testing.
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The fin setup that might make one person faster might make another slower. This happens often with SUP: if you are on a board that is too tippy for you, or your technique is not good, you can sometimes go faster by using a large area fin with a wide base. But once you improve your balance and technique, you will probably find that a smaller area fin with a narrower base will be faster for you.
^^^
We do plenty of upwind DW and loop routes in the ocean - and conditions change all the time. It seems for DW in waves a 4 fin set-up will not play nice. Even using a single fin with too much hold and tracking -> is a dangerous broaching hazard and detriment. So we go with the smallest fin possible that provides sufficient hold yet releases when you want. Interestingly on a narrow board like our AS23 - secondary stability improves tremendously using a small single fin once your mind and body adapt.
Once you learn how to ride a narrow board - you want less fin so you can exert more control when you want. Being over finned prevents this. With time - initial stability also improves dramatically. Our AS23 has been the best purchase we have made because it has forced us to move outside our box and learn new skills - and how better to apply power. We simply test this via our own sprint and 5 mile GPS time trials. Those are the truly accurate ones. There is no doubt our AS23 is plenty faster on flat than our Dominator -> in a sprint and over 5 miles.
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Im honestly not too interested in what works for most people, I only care about what works for me. When I was testing paddles long ago to try to make a better one that wasn't so, buy Im not going to sell boards or fins. Its just me,me,me,me.
In that selfish vein I think my results with the three fin setup on the Blackfish was quite significant--for me. It wasn't the result i expected or wanted. Now Im going to have to add a ventral fin and see what that does. As I've said before, listening to Larry's technical explanation of what his fins do gives me heartburn, but I certainly can't argue about the results.
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This gives me a chuckle, Pono, as I remember when I lined up next to you before the PPG start last year. I believe your exact quote was: "why'd you put all those fins on your board?" (but I can't capture the hint of disdain in your tone.)
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Who won between you two? :)
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from my experience i have been playing with 3 fins for a while now but just fitted the ventral. i could not feel hardly any difference with the rear sides in, the ventral made a small positive difference on the flat but quite a negative difference on the ocean. Considering my board is 21" wide they are quite stable so perhaps it is not so noticeable. The rear fins have been proved to slow the board down it seams and getting extra stability all the way at the tail is never going to be that effective which is why i think the ventral makes a lot more sense in the flat but not in a moving ocean.
I would like to know what are the negatives you experience with the ventral on open water? What is the measurements and shape of your ventral.
the ventral i have recently been using is 2 x 6 and found on the ocean you are very much effected by what the currents are doing. If you are not going straight up or down you get drifted sideways fast and it takes more effort than its worth to correct it. Its like flying a plane in winds if you one to go in a tight line towards something the board does not necessarily want to be pointed straight directly at it in a current and the ventral stops this. We also get quite a bit of back wash of our seep beaches and having swell moving at you for booth sides took me by surprise a lot more with the ventral than without.
Im pretty sure the placebo effect is stronger than the difference the fins makes in most situations.
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Who won between you two? :)
b
Im fat and old, he's not. It doesn't always come down to fins. I dont remember that but it doesnt surprise me.
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This gives me a chuckle, Pono, as I remember when I lined up next to you before the PPG start last year. I believe your exact quote was: "why'd you put all those fins on your board?" (but I can't capture the hint of disdain in your tone.)
If he asked me that, I'd say it worked for Nokia.
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If you are not going straight up or down you get drifted sideways fast and it takes more effort than its worth to correct it.
Certainly turning with a ventral does take more effort - vs without. So can appreciate in ocean current and reflected waves -> board control will be impacted.
There are times when we paddle upwind in breeze where it is very difficult to maintain an oblique course with a big tracking fin. The nose becomes very reluctant to paddle input vs using a small fin. So would expect considerably more difficulty with a ventral in place as you note. Like anything -> pros and cons. More stability and tracking vs too much tracking leading to instability.
pdx - ;D
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Tried a LA 4 fin modified 25" BW Eradicator with only the ventral and small centre fins in place. The board was extremely stable and very fast without the side twins. Can see adding more fins if you really required crazy side to side stability on flat. But in most cases - would just use the OEM single fin set-up for up down AW use. The 25 is a nice stable board already.
NH was the original owner of the board before it was modified by a zoner. Up in Squamish a year ago - Norm used that board with the OEM fin and he just planed and surfed that board with complete ease. It was crazy to see how easy he pulled away from all of us. And he told us he was slow compared to Connor and Kai. :o
It's interesting how people react when a single fin does not work than when a multiple fin board does not work. Just like being over sized with a single fin it also happens in a multiple fin world. In the Sup world all or alot of companies sell you their surfboard fins and now even some windsurf companies even try selling you their windsurf fins. It has taken me 6 years to figure out Sup Specific fins for the Single fin world and now 4 years to dial in the multiple fin Sup World. I have wrote more specific descriptions on these fins if you follow me on Facebook you would have seen. Will be adding the write ups to my Website soon and Paddleboard Specialists will be very proactive with this understanding of Sup Fins also. Cris and Kevin at Paddleboard Specialists have spent some long communication time with me about alot of this stuff. Check out their page which will soon have a Ventral fin write up section. Pics below Surf Fin verses a similar Sup Fin wanna be then a Sup Specific Fin by me. If you take a similar Surf Fin and change the color and call it a Sup fin, does that make it a Sup Fin. Or changing the Rake and outline specific for Sup makes it a Sup fin.
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If you are not going straight up or down you get drifted sideways fast and it takes more effort than its worth to correct it.
Certainly turning with a ventral does take more effort - vs without. So can appreciate in ocean current and reflected waves -> board control will be impacted.
There are times when we paddle upwind in breeze where it is very difficult to maintain an oblique course with a big tracking fin. The nose becomes very reluctant to paddle input vs using a small fin. So would expect considerably more difficulty with a ventral in place as you note. Like anything -> pros and cons. More stability and tracking vs too much tracking leading to instability.
pdx - ;D
Sorry Eagle, Have to disagree with you about turning with a Ventral. Only if the Ventral is placed in the wrong place. Her you have 2 different people riding with a Ventral. One guy turning with ease and another riding with surfing with ease using a Ventral. I think it as to do with the mind set of the rider. If the rider is trying to find fault, then he will. But in the real world and 2000 happy riders later I don't hear this complaint from others using a Ventral.
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Have actually used your Elite from day one and still use it from time to time. Also your Hybrid. So can appreciate the differences between surf fins and SUP fins. Norm also uses your Hybrid for DW runs from time to time.
No doubt a kick turn works - but in the ocean angling down and across DW waves - would expect problems. Understand the 4 fin we paddled was based on your specs and dims and correctly placed. It uses your fins. Not doubting you have happy riders. Just that there are pros and cons with most set-ups.
What do feel are cons?
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If you are not going straight up or down you get drifted sideways fast and it takes more effort than its worth to correct it.
Certainly turning with a ventral does take more effort - vs without. So can appreciate in ocean current and reflected waves -> board control will be impacted.
There are times when we paddle upwind in breeze where it is very difficult to maintain an oblique course with a big tracking fin. The nose becomes very reluctant to paddle input vs using a small fin. So would expect considerably more difficulty with a ventral in place as you note. Like anything -> pros and cons. More stability and tracking vs too much tracking leading to instability.
pdx - ;D
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July 7, 2010 23:16
18 ft. Unlimited Bark SUP with Larry Allison Dagger concept
Here's a Ride Review by John Bowling the owner of this 18-ft./ 6-in. Unlimited Bark who lives and Paddles in the San Francisco Bay, which has some of the strongest currents and wind conditions.
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Ride Review:
Gentlemen- It is with renewed confidence that after installing Larry's dual daggers on my 18'6" SUP Bark battleship, that I can actually navigate through wind, current and bump without wanting to shoot myself in the head! This is something I previously thought only possible with the addition of a full rudder system..... before Larry lent me a hand.
Let me just paint a quick picture for you of my experience before the addition of the mid-fin. This board was fast on the flats, in calm conditions, but it easily fell off course. It would yaw to the left or right, with the slightest bit of wind or current. And, the harder I paddled, the quicker I had to change sides too. I'd go for 6-10 mile paddles and find myself caught in squalls or currents in the San Francisco Bay pitching sideways, totally frustrated, just trying to get home with some sense of dignity. Joe Bark sympathized with me, but was reluctant to retrofit a rudder on the board while he was keeping pace with all his orders and referred me to Larry. It's cool, Joe! You are The MAN!
Larry's inline dagger, mid-fin concept gave my board the lateral stability I needed. I easily doubled the efficiency of my work. Now, I can easily fire off 10-20 sprint strokes on one side, before switching to the other side, to stay on course. This has preserved the glide and simplicity of a rudderless board, on a board simply to long to be rudderless otherwise. When conditions do get more than moderately challenging, I still have to hammer away to fight the drift, but I'm not cut to my knees, feeling like an (m)oaron! Thanks Larry, for all your help! I'm stoked! John
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What is your view comparing a 2 - 3 - or 4 fin with ventral set-up compared to a single Aercor for DW runs in the ocean?
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What is your view comparing a 2 - 3 - or 4 fin with ventral set-up compared to a single Aercor for DW runs in the ocean?
Depends on water conditions. Anytime you have a strong bump running like a wave where power is coming from the back of you and less paddle power is needed then Aercor fin is the fin of choice for a skilled paddler. Now if you have the same condition with less skill and stability becomes a issue then a Triple no Ventral running small Twins 4by9 inch with a small kick fin. Or a GT Moray Fin which holds like a 8 1/2" but flexs small and reacts like a 6 " fin.
If you are open ocean in a DW situation with white cap peak chop then depending on the board again and if now you have more paddling power to drive you and less wave power then GT Moray again on low volume boards or Dolphin Pivot on high volume boards over 300 liters. In this situation you then would run larger twins 4by9 1/2" ellipticals no Ventral option.
If you are in open ocean or flat water surface from wind chop small ripples. Then Elliptical Twins with small Ventral for high volume boards over 280 liters or Stealth Small Twins for lower volume boards with small Ventral which would give you the forward push to maintain a nice glide.
Single fins have a very small range of function PERIOD. If you set your board up for flats and hit open ocean with conditions then your board feels small and you go swimming. If you set your board up for open ocean and hit flats, now your board feels like you are towing seaweed. But with Twins and Ventral assist your board moving from flat to open ocean then back have very little change with alot more positive than a single in feel and control.
Options is the name of the game Eagle. If your board comes as a single fin then you put the range of users in a small bracket. If your board comes as a Multiple fin set up then the user pool has widened dramatically.
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Interesting comments about the Aercor and GT Moray. But this makes sense. When we use our SIC 7.0 and get wave push from behind - the Aercor would probably be better. But once we power up the SIC works perfectly. The trick simply is to get up to speed and maintain it. Conditions always change in the ocean and they are never static or consistent.
What does someone do when conditions in the ocean change when say on a 4 fin set-up -> and that becomes the wrong set-up?
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Interesting comments about the Aercor and GT Moray. But this makes sense. When we use our SIC 7.0 and get wave push from behind - the Aercor would probably be better. But once we power up the SIC works perfectly. The trick simply is to get up to speed and maintain it. Conditions always change in the ocean and they are never static or consistent.
What does someone do when conditions in the ocean change when say on a 4 fin set-up -> and that becomes the wrong set-up?
In ocean condition usually becomes more extreme away from shore than closer in some cases. But other times as higher tide comes in back wash will add another element to roll in the ocean with current wind. In which case 4 fin set-up would be the fin set up to weather thru and not get thrown off your board easily because the only thing that could become wrong is glide. The trade off is glide sacrifice over swimming.
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Have actually used your Elite from day one and still use it from time to time. Also your Hybrid. So can appreciate the differences between surf fins and SUP fins. Norm also uses your Hybrid for DW runs from time to time.
No doubt a kick turn works - but in the ocean angling down and across DW waves - would expect problems. Understand the 4 fin we paddled was based on your specs and dims and correctly placed. It uses your fins. Not doubting you have happy riders. Just that there are pros and cons with most set-ups.
What do feel are cons?
The Cons: Never use a Hybrid plan shape at 59 sq inches along with a 7" rake for hold in a Downwind situation. That would be like towing seaweed and a nightmare to turn.
Pros: Use a GT Moray which has the same depth hold as the Hybrid at 39 sq inches and flexs small to feel like a 5" to 6" fin for glide and turning to catch the next bump.
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Does this translate to other boards? Or just the infinity Blackfish? Am I correct that Infinity has been using that set up for at least a couple years? If the board has been optimized for that fin set up the differences may not be as dramatic on other designs.
Waiting for someone to make this comment: Supflorida, It's interesting how quick the market shifted from Displace to Planning. In simple term the Twins comes from the Simmons concept which is twin fin related. The surf industry used Simmons only in glass on form and then the finsystem users tried to change the wheel by claiming Simmons concept with non Simmons fins and design, ASS backwards.
Now we are in the Sup World same concept Simmons again, which is why Infinty gets it. The Phoenix Twin Models are from Surfing Roots of Simmons and so is the Infinity Blackfish which also revolves around Twins. So if other companies are following Infinity with planning designs it only makes sense that Twin Fins will come into play it they get it. But like I have seen, shapers are so quick to claim being right and being first. Let's see how long the other companies will try to find fault in Twins before they open their mind and think for a minute I get it and add Twins. It has taken 5 years to get here because one key factor Probox Finsystem is the only Finsystem that can carry a large base fin other have limitations. So we will see how long politics plays the role to the other board companies making the move to better their board options.
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Actually have used the Elite and Hybrid on the Dominator and SB Touring carbon pintail for DW. Those fins added a lot of stability to those boards and helped in the early days. We planed fine and stayed dry nearly all the time with those fins. Could not turn well - but stayed dry. Speed seemed ok as well.
As our skills improved - we purchased a Bullet 14V2 and M-14 as those boards made DW runs a breeze. Soon we found that too much fin was a hindrance maneuvering across bumps. So we switched to a smaller fin like the SIC 8.3. We could catch many more bumps and go much faster - with more stability at speed. That was an eye-opener. Now we have progressed to an All Star 23 with a SIC 7.0 fin. The board is stable and fast in speeds up to 15 kts. All our boards are super stable already - with the All Star being the exception in steep cross and reflected chop. So why go to a quad set-up?
Also is "glide" the only con to a 4 fin set-up? Or is too much fin on a quad also a con - like using a Hybrid should never be used in a DW situation. And what are your thoughts about those carbon SIC fins - good or bad for DW use?
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Here are comments about the Hybrid for DW - "This fin is also becoming a favorite among downwinders, as it offers great tracking, but still offers the maneuverability they need to move from swell to swell."
http://www.supgladiator.com/racefins/
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Actually have used the Elite and Hybrid on the Dominator and SB Touring carbon pintail for DW. Those fins added a lot of stability to those boards and helped in the early days. We planed fine and stayed dry nearly all the time with those fins. Could not turn well - but stayed dry. Speed seemed ok as well.
As our skills improved - we purchased a Bullet 14V2 and M-14 as those boards made DW runs a breeze. Soon we found that too much fin was a hindrance maneuvering across bumps. So we switched to a smaller fin like the SIC 8.3. We could catch many more bumps and go much faster - with more stability at speed. That was an eye-opener. Now we have progressed to an All Star 23 with a SIC 7.0 fin. The board is stable and fast in speeds up to 15 kts. All our boards are super stable already - with the All Star being the exception in steep cross and reflected chop. So why go to a quad set-up?
Also is "glide" the only con to a 4 fin set-up? Or is too much fin on a quad also a con - like using a Hybrid should never be used in a DW situation. And what are your thoughts about those carbon SIC fins - good or bad for DW use?
You are exactly right about the Hybrid and Elite fin design in the early days back in 2011 when I came out with these for the Gladiator due to the bulky board designs then. Which is why I stopped doing these designs for the Gladiator this year because more cons than pros with today board designs which he couldn't understand so I had to separate with the confusion it created in the Sup market. Although I still make the Hybrid in HDM for Rental Fleets and the Inflatable Market which that size and makeup works well.
As for the SIC fin ok in Hawaiian waters where power is coming from the tail with little paddle stroke needed. But suck in our Calif. water which makes the board hard to ride a larger fin because they move the fin box back to track more but creates another issue when putting on a bigger fin to better your board drive then you get over fin feel of now tugging. I have had guys add Ventral fins to make the performance better at a minimal cost to adding twins in these boards. I know the SIC Fin design which I created in 2010 for Jim Terrell when he rode for Bark, because Joe's boxes are also to far back on the tail.
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August 10, 2010 15:03
Ride Review from Standup Paddle Magazine on the new Jim Terrell Stealth Race Fin by Larry Allison
Just did a 2 mile R&D run at Ala Moana Beach Park. The Jimmy Terrell Fibre Glas Fin. Co. Larry Allison race keel to be exact was the test. I always gauge Larry's Becker/Mills race keel against whatever is placed in front of the Standup Paddle Magazine feedback team.This was the result;The Jim Terrell race keel gets way more strokes per side and even in the wind, the "yaw" was minimal. On a straight course, this one will have a lot less cross over which means keeping speed rate up and momentum going. I even went up to 16 strokes per side. I never thought that was possible.The Becker/Mills fin got me 12 plus strokes but what I like about that fin is on buoy turns, especially on those hard cross-bows, you can yank and turn a lot easier than the JT race keel.Both fins are good. Like having a 12'6 and a 14 or open water and flat water board, you should always have a quiver of at least 2 race fins. It could be a matter of a gold, silver or bronze medal at the next race. Or even 4th which means no medal especially if it was your neighbor who beat you at the last race.So whether you're doing a course race or straight course, know your equipment.
Never said glide was a con to 4 fins. Only stated if power coming from the tail is greater than the need for paddle power with more paddle strokes, then you can opt out Ventral fin.
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Here are comments about the Hybrid for DW - "This fin is also becoming a favorite among downwinders, as it offers great tracking, but still offers the maneuverability they need to move from swell to swell."
http://www.supgladiator.com/racefins/
My Point exactly: That is not me saying that it's a guy from Texas on his Website not mine, which is why I discontinued making his brand PERIOD! Market confusion and not accurate information along with compliant's from other people for this same reason. You don't see my name on his fins now because they are not made by me.
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Interesting comments about the Aercor and GT Moray. But this makes sense. When we use our SIC 7.0 and get wave push from behind - the Aercor would probably be better. But once we power up the SIC works perfectly. The trick simply is to get up to speed and maintain it. Conditions always change in the ocean and they are never static or consistent.
What does someone do when conditions in the ocean change when say on a 4 fin set-up -> and that becomes the wrong set-up?
In ocean condition usually becomes more extreme away from shore than closer in some cases. But other times as higher tide comes in back wash will add another element to roll in the ocean with current wind. In which case 4 fin set-up would be the fin set up to weather thru and not get thrown off your board easily because the only thing that could become wrong is glide. The trade off is glide sacrifice over swimming.
"In which case 4 fin set-up would be the fin set up to weather thru and not get thrown off your board easily because the only thing that could become wrong is glide. The trade off is glide sacrifice over swimming."
So to be clear then - do you see any cons with a quad under any conditions?
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Interesting comments about the Aercor and GT Moray. But this makes sense. When we use our SIC 7.0 and get wave push from behind - the Aercor would probably be better. But once we power up the SIC works perfectly. The trick simply is to get up to speed and maintain it. Conditions always change in the ocean and they are never static or consistent.
What does someone do when conditions in the ocean change when say on a 4 fin set-up -> and that becomes the wrong set-up?
In ocean condition usually becomes more extreme away from shore than closer in some cases. But other times as higher tide comes in back wash will add another element to roll in the ocean with current wind. In which case 4 fin set-up would be the fin set up to weather thru and not get thrown off your board easily because the only thing that could become wrong is glide. The trade off is glide sacrifice over swimming.
"In which case 4 fin set-up would be the fin set up to weather thru and not get thrown off your board easily because the only thing that could become wrong is glide. The trade off is glide sacrifice over swimming."
So to be clear then - do you see any cons with a quad under any conditions?
You are asking a guy that comes from a single fin mentality in the surfing world because I like the skateboard feel to now in the standup world me and my girlfriend only ride only 4 fin like the pic below:
The only con is weight which is added 1/4 lb.(4 fins compared to 1 fin in Fiberglass) to some people, which I will have foam carbon coming in the small ventral along with the 4by9 1/2"Twin with the 6" kick. 20 seconds longer to unscrew the twins for those of you who break down their boards to bag them, Vitamin Blue Board Bags do make bags for Twin fin and Ventral slots. Tell them Larry sent you. Other con is some say with twin fins you are not working out hard enough because of the ease added by Twins. So some Racers I know train with a Single fin and Race with all 4 to have peak energy in a Race. OPtions are great!!!
Big Pro in all 4 over single fin that everyone gets is. In a start of a Race when the water is air from all the paddling going on a Single fin feels like you are in quick sand trying to get out while with Twins you fly out like no one was there paddling next to you. Dave Boehne told me a story that happened 2 days ago while he was paddling with a group of 10 guys. Dave and one other guy had a Ventral combo while the other 8 were riding single fin. The group came up behind a big boat backing out creating a Eddie in the water. When the group hit the Eddie all 8 of the single fin guys went down in the water Dave and the other guy with ventral combos went thru with no problem. The 8 guys that fell in the water were all above average paddlers. Everyone can debate all that want Single Fin over 4 Fins in a perfect world but it's hard to fight that fact which Dave Boehne explains in a not so perfect world of Mother Nature!!!! This is why I find NO cons in a 4 Fin. Hope that covers it for you my friend.
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I'm going to have to try the 4 fin setup. I would say that so far I'm convinced of the three-fin superiority in flatwater, but for downwinders, I prefer single fin. I had a hard time steering the three fin on a downwinder.
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Here are comments about the Hybrid for DW - "This fin is also becoming a favorite among downwinders, as it offers great tracking, but still offers the maneuverability they need to move from swell to swell."
http://www.supgladiator.com/racefins/
My Point exactly: That is not me saying that it's a guy from Texas on his Website not mine, which is why I discontinued making his brand PERIOD! Market confusion and not accurate information along with compliant's from other people for this same reason. You don't see my name on his fins now because they are not made by me.
Ah - can now better understand the change in relationship. It seems all of the old LA fiberglass fins have been changed to carbon.
The 2 Elite and 1 Hybrid we have are original fiberglass versions from years ago. Those we still use and they function excellent for the purpose designed. Elite -> rough conditions. And Hybrid -> all purpose. But thought the area of the Hybrid was 50.5 for some reason. Nevertheless had no idea that the business relationship ended.
Now makes better sense. Had the impression before that both you and Casey were both happy marketing the Gladiator fins together on both separate websites. And agreed on the description write-ups. But yeah if your view now is the Hybrid should now not ever be used for DW - can see that causing a rift.
https://supgladiatorfins.com/collections/frontpage
http://www.supgladiator.com/2015/02/10/sup-gladiator-adds-world-champion-female-racer-lina-augaitis-to-national-race-team/
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Dave Boehne told me a story that happened 2 days ago while he was paddling with a group of 10 guys. Dave and one other guy had a Ventral combo while the other 8 were riding single fin. The group came up behind a big boat backing out creating a Eddie in the water. When the group hit the Eddie all 8 of the single fin guys went down in the water Dave and the other guy with ventral combos went thru with no problem. The 8 guys that fell in the water were all above average paddlers.
That's exactly right, on the Manhattan circumnavigate race few days back, I was flying at 10mph average on the last short section of the East River leading to the Harlem River through Hell Gate, when hitting Hell Gate, the strong currents from 3 directions formed 3-4 ft waves with some nasty turbulence all over the place.
People were falling left and right, other were struggling to stay on and going on their knees. This was one of the points where I dropped most of the people who paddled next to me for the past 7 miles or so. I was on the 6 inch stinter with small ventral and the 4x10 twins and I was able to plow through this section without too much effort. 8)
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Here are comments about the Hybrid for DW - "This fin is also becoming a favorite among downwinders, as it offers great tracking, but still offers the maneuverability they need to move from swell to swell."
http://www.supgladiator.com/racefins/
My Point exactly: That is not me saying that it's a guy from Texas on his Website not mine, which is why I discontinued making his brand PERIOD! Market confusion and not accurate information along with compliant's from other people for this same reason. You don't see my name on his fins now because they are not made by me.
Ah - can now better understand the change in relationship. It seems all of the old LA fiberglass fins have been changed to carbon.
The 2 Elite and 1 Hybrid we have are original fiberglass versions from years ago. Those we still use and they function excellent for the purpose designed. Elite -> rough conditions. And Hybrid -> all purpose. But thought the area of the Hybrid was 50.5 for some reason. Nevertheless had no idea that the business relationship ended.
Now makes better sense. Had the impression before that both you and Casey were both happy marketing the Gladiator fins together on both separate websites. And agreed on the description write-ups. But yeah if your view now is the Hybrid should now not ever be used for DW - can see that causing a rift.
https://supgladiatorfins.com/collections/frontpage
http://www.supgladiator.com/2015/02/10/sup-gladiator-adds-world-champion-female-racer-lina-augaitis-to-national-race-team/
Lina, has been riding my fiberglass version of the Pro and also the Stealth Ninja. Lina has just got the 7" Stinger like pic below which takes the place of the Pro with Faster release and more surface area at the same depth as the Pro. The large tip area of the Pro gives good hold and stability but stops at top speed and now you are working against the fin holding on which releases late.
Here are recent comments from facebook about the Stinger Fin that replace the Pro in my world:
Comments
Michael Westenberger
Michael Westenberger Great fin!
Unlike · Reply · 1 · August 11 at 8:06am
Bryce Dyer
Bryce Dyer Beautiful.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · August 11 at 9:46am
Wyatt Everhart
Wyatt Everhart #FastFin
Like · Reply · August 11 at 5:15pm
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I'm going to have to try the 4 fin setup. I would say that so far I'm convinced of the three-fin superiority in flatwater, but for downwinders, I prefer single fin. I had a hard time steering the three fin on a downwinder.
You are right my friend in a downwind situation with strong power from the tail by Mother Nature with little paddle stroke needed no Ventral is required and single option is great for pivot turning. When condition forces you to increase paddle stroke to maintain speed where now power comes from front then Ventral assist is valuable. Thanks PonoBill for going thru the test.
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Here are comments about the Hybrid for DW - "This fin is also becoming a favorite among downwinders, as it offers great tracking, but still offers the maneuverability they need to move from swell to swell."
http://www.supgladiator.com/racefins/
My Point exactly: That is not me saying that it's a guy from Texas on his Website not mine, which is why I discontinued making his brand PERIOD! Market confusion and not accurate information along with compliant's from other people for this same reason. You don't see my name on his fins now because they are not made by me.
Ah - can now better understand the change in relationship. It seems all of the old LA fiberglass fins have been changed to carbon.
The 2 Elite and 1 Hybrid we have are original fiberglass versions from years ago. Those we still use and they function excellent for the purpose designed. Elite -> rough conditions. And Hybrid -> all purpose. But thought the area of the Hybrid was 50.5 for some reason. Nevertheless had no idea that the business relationship ended.
Now makes better sense. Had the impression before that both you and Casey were both happy marketing the Gladiator fins together on both separate websites. And agreed on the description write-ups. But yeah if your view now is the Hybrid should now not ever be used for DW - can see that causing a rift.
https://supgladiatorfins.com/collections/frontpage
http://www.supgladiator.com/2015/02/10/sup-gladiator-adds-world-champion-female-racer-lina-augaitis-to-national-race-team/
Sorry Eagle, Hybrid is 52 Sq Inch. not 59 Sq
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Be prepared my friends the wanna be corp.world starts to play catch up. the limitations of the other systems that were designed for fins no bigger than 4inches now are trying to come into the market stating 3 plugs are the way to go, Verses 1 Probox. LOL Not to forget for those of you that are not aware of the mechanics of Probox adding a "V" groove to suck the taper wedge insert fin into the board for a tight fit. Along with different "Cant" adjustments for fine turning Performance in Surf and fin alignment for the Sup Touring and Race Twin multiple fin boards. If I didn't have patents on Probox Finsystems the corps would have knockoffs already.
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When condition forces you to increase paddle stroke to maintain speed where now power comes from front then Ventral assist is valuable.
Larry, in these conditions does the ventral assist stability, or is its benefit primarily for tracking and/or speed?
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When condition forces you to increase paddle stroke to maintain speed where now power comes from front then Ventral assist is valuable.
Larry, in these conditions does the ventral assist stability, or is its benefit primarily for tracking and/or speed?
Let me break down the function of a Ventral Fin my friend. Thanks for asking
Ventral Fin on a Raceboard:
A Ventral Fin on a Raceboard performs multiple duties: 1) Helps the board nose maintain a straight line 2) Helps the board increase forward power by creating resists against the pull( torque) of the paddle stroke. 3) Helps with added lateral stability under your feet on higher and narrower board designs. 4) A Ventral Fin allows you to down size the rear fin for added speed to bring the drag noticed by depth of the fins down. Ventral fins come in 3 sizes, 1) Small at 2 inch by 8 inches is the most common used in the higher performance 2) Med at 2 1/2 Inch by 10 inch long for open ocean on high volume boards or riders that need added stability to control the lateral roll in the board. 3) Large at 3 inches by 12 inches long for deep water long distance Excursion Boards.
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So I ground out about three miles of upwind, to the split rock from the event center. I really like the Blackfish, and I like the small triple fin setup for upwind. Good stability and tracks really well. Holds well in crosswind too. Downwind on the return, I'm struck again at how hard it is to steer with wave pressure from behind. I was catching lots of bumps, but couldn't maneuver well enough to really stay in them as long as I like. I'll be trying one of Larry Allison's dolphin fins, probably next week, and I expect it will make a big difference.
I'm pretty happy to have a 14' board I can move around on, and that stays in trim when I move back behind the handle. I can also move well forward to press the nose down, which helps greatly in getting bigger bumps.
I had two falls today, once while angling across the wicked cross wind and swell that fires out of the backside of Wells Island, where the Hook redirects the wind. I had almost made it through and relaxed my guard a bit. I was impressed with how well the board recovered from being bashed with strange swells, There was also a counter swell from a double barge moving downriver. The second time was downwinding back to the EC. A crossed-up swell hit the tail of the Blackfish and overpowered the fins, making it feel like I had no fins at all, The board turned 45 degrees before I fell off. Felt like I was going to do a 360. Jeremy probably would have, and would have taken a picture while the board was backwards. I need all the help I can get.
Seems like I need a quickchange fin setup for upwind/downwind. More practically, I suspect a dolphin will be adequate for upwind and great for downwind.
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Seems like I need a quickchange fin setup for upwind/downwind. More practically, I suspect a dolphin will be adequate for upwind and great for downwind.
Bill thanks for the update.
That is the setup I am planning to run this winter. 6" Stinger and 4 x 9.5" semi-elliptical. And the Pivot Dolphin for single.
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On facebook, Larry had been modding a Starboard Allstar with the heavy concave. I'd like to see the feedback from the outcome of that.
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If we needed more stability - a quad is super stable. Even with just a ventral a 25 board is alot more stable. But since we bought the AS23 to "improve" our stability -> we "want" the tippy challenge factor. And because we do a lot of up down loops in breeze - a set-up that works well catching bumps DW is paramount for us.
The DW aspect is most important to us - as that is where we have the most fun and most risk of falling in. On flat the AS23 is very stable now. And even in cross chop it is getting quite ok. Getting up after sitting is actually the hardest part DW in slop and weak breeze. That is when we fall in on the 23. Haha. But getting better. Slowly.
Actually waiting for Larry to respond to a PM sent to him to demo a couple of his fins.
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How do you work out the toe-in angle of the twins?
It’s the drag on the twins I keep wondering about. Get that angle the tiniest bit wrong and it’s a drag. Literally. Or worse: doesn’t that angle change with speed or what you are doing?
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I don't find dolphin fins a particularly good choice for downwinding. The bulk of the area on a dolphin is towards the base. And the least amount of area is towards the tip. This limits turning (base area) and minimises hold and stability (tip), neither of which are features that most people want in a DW fin.
But fin choices are very personal, so there are no wrongs or rights. It'
s like asking which sofa is "best".
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All I know is that putting the Gladiator Elite with a ton more area and tracking is a lot tougher to turn on any of our boards vs the SIC 7.0. And am sticking to that!
And my sofa is "best"! No not really -> that is bs. But enough of this nonsense. Time to get out on the water. Sunny for the next week in beautiful end of summer BC. Sailing then SUP after. Sounds about right today. :)
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So I ground out about three miles of upwind, to the split rock from the event center. I really like the Blackfish, and I like the small triple fin setup for upwind. Good stability and tracks really well. Holds well in crosswind too. Downwind on the return, I'm struck again at how hard it is to steer with wave pressure from behind. I was catching lots of bumps, but couldn't maneuver well enough to really stay in them as long as I like. I'll be trying one of Larry Allison's dolphin fins, probably next week, and I expect it will make a big difference.
I'm pretty happy to have a 14' board I can move around on, and that stays in trim when I move back behind the handle. I can also move well forward to press the nose down, which helps greatly in getting bigger bumps.
I had two falls today, once while angling across the wicked cross wind and swell that fires out of the backside of Wells Island, where the Hook redirects the wind. I had almost made it through and relaxed my guard a bit. I was impressed with how well the board recovered from being bashed with strange swells, There was also a counter swell from a double barge moving downriver. The second time was downwinding back to the EC. A crossed-up swell hit the tail of the Blackfish and overpowered the fins, making it feel like I had no fins at all, The board turned 45 degrees before I fell off. Felt like I was going to do a 360. Jeremy probably would have, and would have taken a picture while the board was backwards. I need all the help I can get.
Seems like I need a quickchange fin setup for upwind/downwind. More practically, I suspect a dolphin will be adequate for upwind and great for downwind.
Hey Bill, I was wondering if your Blackfish is a custom and what's the volume? Seems to be working out well for you.
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Hey Bill, I was wondering if your Blackfish is a custom and what's the volume? Seems to be working out well for you.
You might have seen the 14x25 for sale on Craigslist. The seller is one of the racer here in Vancouver and the board is selling is fully equipped with twins and ventral boxes but no fins (I have some of them :-) ).
Cheers,
Luc
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Hey Bill, I was wondering if your Blackfish is a custom and what's the volume? Seems to be working out well for you.
You might have seen the 14x25 for sale on Craigslist. The seller is one of the racer here in Vancouver and the board he is selling is fully equipped with twins and ventral boxes but no fins (I have some of them :-) ). 25" might be a little bit on the narrow side fro a big dude like you fro an all-around downwind board but then again.
Cheers,
Luc
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I don't find dolphin fins a particularly good choice for downwinding. The bulk of the area on a dolphin is towards the base. And the least amount of area is towards the tip. This limits turning (base area) and minimises hold and stability (tip), neither of which are features that most people want in a DW fin.
But fin choices are very personal, so there are no wrongs or rights. It'
s like asking which sofa is "best".
There are mysteries at work for sure.
Look at the Ninja. At first look, it would not strike me as a downwind fin but I used one on my Riviera DW which has a lot of rocker at the tail (it's a banana of a board) and the Ninja actually worked really well. Plenty of Aussies downwind with VMG blades which are wide based and narrow tip with good success and Dave Boehne I heard is also using a single LA Dolphin for downwinding a Blackfish. I still have to try a Fat Boy as you use if I see a good deal on one that I cannot pass....:-)
Of course the Aercor has a shape on its own. It works great on a Bullet.
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No, it's a 2015 production board I picked up at Big winds. I tried a big dolphin fin in it today for a downwinder and it was a disaster. The fin overwhelmed the tail and mad it very hard to turn. I was a passenger. I think the square tail and concave in the back makes fins pretty critical. Might have to try an Aercor.
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No, it's a 2015 production board I picked up at Big winds. I tried a big dolphin fin in it today for a downwinder and it was a disaster. The fin overwhelmed the tail and mad it very hard to turn. I was a passenger. I think the square tail and concave in the back makes fins pretty critical. Might have to try an Aercor.
Yep. An Aercor. Or be radical and try a Squirrel :) A lot cheaper, and you can go pretty small with it if it's used as part of a 2+1 type setup and still have control, stability, plus good turning.
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Hey Area10, You use a TA Squirrel or a FCS FatBoy I believe. in 9" and 10" inches lenght?
Cheers,
Luc
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Hey Bill, I was wondering if your Blackfish is a custom and what's the volume? Seems to be working out well for you.
You might have seen the 14x25 for sale on Craigslist. The seller is one of the racer here in Vancouver and the board he is selling is fully equipped with twins and ventral boxes but no fins (I have some of them :-) ). 25" might be a little bit on the narrow side fro a big dude like you fro an all-around downwind board but then again.
Cheers,
Luc
Cool Haven't looked at the one in Vancouver on craigslist. Distressed Mullet has a few different versions of the Blackfish for sale. I think the 14 x 25" is around 280 litres, which is plenty. I probably lost around 10 pounds or more on a lake camping trip, so I'm not really in the big boys club. I Weighed 206 pounds on the vet clinic scale the other day. Bring on the skinny boards. I saw a 14 x 26 custom Blackfish on the mullet, and the 200 pound owner is going to a narrower version of the same board. It would be just a matter of getting used to a narrower width.
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Yes I have been tempted to swap my 26" for the 25" for flatter waters but then looking at the expense and then when things get choppy and I want stability, I am sticking to 26" for my boards. From somebody I know, 24" is too skinny for a a nice downwinder.
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I ordered a 9" Squirrel. I'm not really having a challenge with stability, it's steering the thing that's giving me problems. Might just be that the rails and tail are too square, though I don't have any problem steering my 12'2". It has full rounded rails but the tail is pretty square. Perhaps I need to move back more often. It gets into the bumps well if I stand forward, and I can connect bumps with it if they happen to be aligned, but steering into the right spot and cutting across the faces of swells is currently beyond me.
Maybe I'm just a rudder ho.