Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: Zooport on July 28, 2016, 01:09:04 PM
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This is just my opinion and I was wondering if anyone else would agree. Many people who ride big boards in small surf, use fins that are too big. I have found, over the years, that big boards turn better with small fins. I am tending to use fins that are just barely big enough to keep the board from sliding out, and that loosens my big boards up tremendously. Seems to me that big boards have so much rail area that it compensates for smaller fins so you don't need a big 10" fin and sidebites. Same with quad boards.
Exceptions:
Bigger, steeper waves. You need the fin area there.
Boards that are single fin. I'm only talking about thruster and up.
Agree? Disagree?
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100% agree.
On my 10'10 and 10'6 I use 7in notched fins or 8in max...neither are real noseriders so i use them to make the boards turn on wait high minus waves
my biggest is a Greenaugh stage 6 8in and only that big because of the design
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Yessiree! Little boards bigger fins, bigger boards smaller fins.
My biggest SUP is my 9'4" King's and I use small Stretch FCS II thrusters in it. It actually turns even in smaller waves!
There is a thought out there, that bigger sups have so much rail, board, weight, lotsa stuff, that the less fin the better! Works for me!
Pic is my Molly Hatchet setup with tiny sides. Works a treat. Now sold in green!;
Your experience and opinions may differ.. ;D ;D ;D
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I agree.
With my Laird (10'6") when I'm trying to catch small somewhat mushy waves in competitive conditions,
I wanted the least drag as possible (to make it as easy for me as possible). After trying lots and lots of fins
and fin combinations, I think small sidebites (3.5" or smaller) and a small middle fin - say even down to 4" -
work fine for small waves. -- For big waves, I found I could use down to a 7.5" swept fin with the small side-bites.
You can even still noseride pretty good - you just can't go quite as far up on the nose without the tail pullling out.
But the board screams with the small fins (and sharper rails).
The thing with the Laird is it has fairly sharp edges in the tail - so I think the sharp edges
allow for smaller fins.
I too used the method of shrinking everything down until the tail would slide out.
With small waves it is kind of fun to slide slip around turns. I used a 7.5" Fins Unlimited Swept Fin
As A Single Fin with fun slip slidey results. But you wouldn't want to use it like that on larger waves.
On my JL B&B (10'1") it is a bit different because the board has rounded rails all the way back. With smaller fins,
the B&B doesn't hold a line nearly as well while paddling, it tends to slip around as you paddle if you use
smaller fins. Still it can be a fun challenge in small waves.
So, I guess part of it is the rail shape of the boards.
And, also what you are trying to do.
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Also, I have found that fin size and area affect stability quite a bit.
But, generally, if you have a bit wide board,
you're already pretty much covered, so you can use the smaller fins.
Sometimes it takes a while to get use to the different effects of changing
to smaller fins - stability, tipping and yawing - then you go back to
a big fin and its like you are on an aircraft carrier.
8)
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Yes: Go smaller until your fins slide out.
Add to this that a fin is used for "Stability." This is the opposite of maneuverability.
I was talking to STRETCH, board designer in Santa Cruz. He was the first, sane,legitimate shaper confirmed to me that "Those fins hanging off the back of a board are like dragging an anchor." He, rather STRETCH sponsored Mavericks surfers like Nic Lamb who just won Mavs this spring, is running 4" fins on the Mavericks guns. We talked about the camber and toe on a surfboard. My stance has been that there should be NO camber on fins and NO toe in. He confirmed that the bigger and faster the board is designed to ride, the maximum being big wave toe-in boards, the less of both Toe and Camber STRETCH uses (almost ZERO).
Me speaking: Two Opposing Single foils (Flat on one side) that are toe'd inward create drag, but add an incredible amount of stability. The flat sided foil benefits from a low stall speed, meaning it will not slide out as easily as a double sided foil, however at the cost of drag. Once you get up to speed the chance of sliding out becomes almost nothing. Stretch further confirmed that at lower speeds boards are expected to go through wide changes in angle of attack (e.g turning left and right). The Toe-in with Flat foils gives two overlapping stall profiles that handle slow speeds and snappy turns without stalling / spinning out. However at higher speeds the angle of attack is nearly constant.
Short story: As board speed doubles, like going from 10 - 20 mph, the amount of lift generated by a fin quadruples according to Lift = 1/2 * Density * Speed ^2. In layman's terms your fin just became 4 times larger. Therefore you should need SMALLER FINS for bigger, faster waves and BIGGER FINS in smaller slow waves. The only risk is the bounce. When you bounce on a big wave, and the fins release, you are foo-barred.
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Yowsah! JP no cant no toe on their short SUPS. Which are very fast BTW.
Beasho, I knew those small Stretch fins were good!
Pat Rawson 'splained fin size to me when I wanted to put giant JL quads (bigger than GL1's ) in one of his boards. Pat-San knew and I was lost in theoretical numbskull Ville.
Smallest mo bettah, hoale boy!!
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Jet planes have smallist , swept back, thin fins. Slow planes have large, straight, thick fins. The same applies to surf fins
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well, my feeling is if you want to ride a longboard SUP like a shortboard SUP, then ride a shortboard SUP and quit with all the wiggle-waggling. ha ha just kidding, to each his own and all that. but, i'm not a fan of progressive prone longboarding either. i side with the trad crowd who word for word say the same thing i said about longboard supping.
otoh, i couldn't longboard sup with small fins if i wanted to, so anything i say is no doubt double drenched with jealousy.
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In the original post there were exceptions. Single fin was one!!
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I like specific fins for specific turns. I enjoy skidding the tail of my 10'4" Footie so I have a 6" middle fin usually and I swap in a 4 incher for when I'm feeling particularly skiddy. Quads? Little, yeah sure. Otherwise I tend to like big fins for the swoopyness. I'm sure that's a word though the spell checker doesn't agree, not even with an ie. Also if you're going to try to get to the nose, you probably want something long.
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I agree based on my experience. I liked using a small 2+1 on my 10'5 SB Drive, and I've been doing the same on my new "old" Surftech Laird 10'0... just using the stock fins which are 2 sidebites and a 6" center w/ a wide base. Plenty of hold. I've twin-finned the Laird on small days and had a blast, super loose & slide-o-matic.
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I agree based on my experience. I liked using a small 2+1 on my 10'5 SB Drive, and I've been doing the same on my new "old" Surftech Laird 10'0... just using the stock fins which are 2 sidebites and a 6" center w/ a wide base. Plenty of hold. I've twin-finned the Laird on small days and had a blast, super loose & slide-o-matic.
I like specific fins for specific turns. I enjoy skidding the tail of my 10'4" Footie so I have a 6" middle fin usually and I swap in a 4 incher for when I'm feeling particularly skiddy. Quads? Little, yeah sure. Otherwise I tend to like big fins for the swoopyness. I'm sure that's a word though the spell checker doesn't agree, not even with an ie. Also if you're going to try to get to the nose, you probably want something long.
Me too! I enjoy a bit of skid on a bigger board. Really makes cutbacks fun.
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The added benefit of running quads on my 10 footer is I can surf right through peak low tide on our 100% sand bar beach breaks. Come to think of it, that is how I broke my foot last year...totally worth it!
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The smallest of these I used this morning, 7", all the way up in the box for the 2-3' waves. Super loose but positive on the 10-6.
Swap fins out and move around in the box to suit the waves.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s672/jayspics09/image_zpsdenorbec.jpeg) (http://s1311.photobucket.com/user/jayspics09/media/image_zpsdenorbec.jpeg.html)
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Riding my 9'4" King's "Monsterpiece" as a twin fin is fun fo sho!
Both with the little trailer and without! Loosy goosy..
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This is just my opinion and I was wondering if anyone else would agree. Many people who ride big boards in small surf, use fins that are too big. I have found, over the years, that big boards turn better with small fins. I am tending to use fins that are just barely big enough to keep the board from sliding out, and that loosens my big boards up tremendously. Seems to me that big boards have so much rail area that it compensates for smaller fins so you don't need a big 10" fin and sidebites. Same with quad boards.
Exceptions:
Bigger, steeper waves. You need the fin area there.
Boards that are single fin. I'm only talking about thruster and up.
Agree? Disagree?
I respectfully Disagree. :)
Thread scenario is: big boards in small waves....
Most of my big boards have the thruster option.
I use them in bigger waves, but not in small waves, because the thrusters are stickier, and provide less drive.
I find a big single, back in the box works better, if I am looking for a snappy turn.
Note:
I prefer long boards with significant tail rocker.... the bigger fin, back in the box, works with this tail.
I like a big, stiff, wide base fin, like I had on my 10'6 Naish Alana.
Monster 10.5", wide base... fiberglass....wahoo! (pic#1)
My feeling is... fins give back what you give them
I get a ton of drive in weak waves.... it's what allows me to throw a turn, without juice.
Like a skateboard on a flat parking lot
Compress, uncoil, your thrust into the wheels is converted to forward speed because the parking lot doesn't move... so the board has to.
In our "small surf" scenario, the fin's resistance to the water, is all we have to "push" off from.... my big based, stiff fin, takes my body energy and converts it to thrust.
On a weak, gutless wave, I can literally create the thrust needed, to support a solid turn, by "pushing off" from my wide base fin.
Big fin drag doesn't even come into play in small waves.
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Nicely explained STC.
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I not sure what this means :o. I do exactly the opposite. Fin forward for loose in the small and back for higher speed, bigger.
The swing turn with the foot back, that'll always go.
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As usual, fin size and shape is relative to the board that they're used on. Fins are much more than just something that "holds you in". There's the drive factor for one and the most important factors is the ability to balance out the handling of the board.
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It's not just fin size and board length. Rider weight is also a factor. Isn't it common knowledge that heavier riders require bigger fins?
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This is just my opinion and I was wondering if anyone else would agree. Many people who ride big boards in small surf, use fins that are too big. I have found, over the years, that big boards turn better with small fins. I am tending to use fins that are just barely big enough to keep the board from sliding out, and that loosens my big boards up tremendously. Seems to me that big boards have so much rail area that it compensates for smaller fins so you don't need a big 10" fin and sidebites. Same with quad boards.
Exceptions:
Bigger, steeper waves. You need the fin area there.
Boards that are single fin. I'm only talking about thruster and up.
Agree? Disagree?
I respectfully Disagree. :)
Thread scenario is: big boards in small waves....
Most of my big boards have the thruster option.
I use them in bigger waves, but not in small waves, because the thrusters are stickier, and provide less drive.
I find a big single, back in the box works better, if I am looking for a snappy turn.
Note:
I prefer long boards with significant tail rocker.... the bigger fin, back in the box, works with this tail.
I like a big, stiff, wide base fin, like I had on my 10'6 Naish Alana.
Monster 10.5", wide base... fiberglass....wahoo! (pic#1)
My feeling is... fins give back what you give them
I get a ton of drive in weak waves.... it's what allows me to throw a turn, without juice.
Like a skateboard on a flat parking lot
Compress, uncoil, your thrust into the wheels is converted to forward speed because the parking lot doesn't move... so the board has to.
In our "small surf" scenario, the fin's resistance to the water, is all we have to "push" off from.... my big based, stiff fin, takes my body energy and converts it to thrust.
On a weak, gutless wave, I can literally create the thrust needed, to support a solid turn, by "pushing off" from my wide base fin.
Big fin drag doesn't even come into play in small waves.
Yeah, but you're a mutant ;) I've never seen anyone with such good footwork. I've learned a lot from your footwork vid.
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ha ha... thanks Zoo ;D
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I not sure what this means :o. I do exactly the opposite. Fin forward for loose in the small and back for higher speed, bigger.
The swing turn with the foot back, that'll always go.
Hi J..... with a big fin, the "swing turn" is more than simply raising the nose and pivoting a turn.....
it feels exactly like a driving "kick turn" on a skateboard
I can actually carve a small turn without juice, by "flicking" with my rear ankle... it pushes against the fin and gives me the burst I need to carry out the turn with some speed.
With a smaller fin, my push would give back nothing..... the tail would slide and all speed would be gone.
I made a short video that sort of shows what I'm describing.
it shows a series of turns after I have scrubbed off all speed..... you can see the nice little carve I get by driving off a big fin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVb7i2-wenk
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As usual, super nice big board technique. I'm thinking that a single fin board is the ticket for that kind of riding. Might not work as well with multiple fins.
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This is just my opinion and I was wondering if anyone else would agree. Many people who ride big boards in small surf, use fins that are too big. I have found, over the years, that big boards turn better with small fins. I am tending to use fins that are just barely big enough to keep the board from sliding out, and that loosens my big boards up tremendously. Seems to me that big boards have so much rail area that it compensates for smaller fins so you don't need a big 10" fin and sidebites. Same with quad boards.
Exceptions:
Bigger, steeper waves. You need the fin area there.
Boards that are single fin. I'm only talking about thruster and up.
Agree? Disagree?
I respectfully Disagree. :)
Thread scenario is: big boards in small waves....
Most of my big boards have the thruster option.
I use them in bigger waves, but not in small waves, because the thrusters are stickier, and provide less drive.
I find a big single, back in the box works better, if I am looking for a snappy turn.
Note:
I prefer long boards with significant tail rocker.... the bigger fin, back in the box, works with this tail.
I like a big, stiff, wide base fin, like I had on my 10'6 Naish Alana.
Monster 10.5", wide base... fiberglass....wahoo! (pic#1)
My feeling is... fins give back what you give them
I get a ton of drive in weak waves.... it's what allows me to throw a turn, without juice.
Like a skateboard on a flat parking lot
Compress, uncoil, your thrust into the wheels is converted to forward speed because the parking lot doesn't move... so the board has to.
In our "small surf" scenario, the fin's resistance to the water, is all we have to "push" off from.... my big based, stiff fin, takes my body energy and converts it to thrust.
On a weak, gutless wave, I can literally create the thrust needed, to support a solid turn, by "pushing off" from my wide base fin.
Big fin drag doesn't even come into play in small waves.
Yeah, but you're a mutant ;) I've never seen anyone with such good footwork. I've learned a lot from your footwork vid.
STC- I think the only difference in fin box placement with the longboard style of riding in smalll waves is your pivot point,. Based on your size and how far back you turn with your foot- box of the box certainly looks like it gives a boost on turns.
I run my single in the front of the box to be able to pivot faster without getting my trailing foot all the way to the back of the board. helps in small dumpy waves when i dont have as much time to walk the board to turn as I would on a fat wave.
Great longboard vid by the way....we havent had a wave in a month in NJ
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so does the same principal apply to multiple fins? say you are using quads 2.9 in and 3.0 inches 4 fins is that like using a big fin in terms of area or is it he depth that makes the difference, I use foiled redfin 3 ds I love them as either a tri
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Great video!
Why are you using 10 6 boards instead of the 9 footers to do this? Because of the lower energies of the waves and added flat water speed, glide and stability? Also they have the proper fin box in the center?
Any other reasons for using a large board in small surf, which many seem to prefer?
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Glide, to keep the fun level high in the low energy waves, if the pickin are slim the mobility keeps the session rolling.
I not sure what this means :o. I do exactly the opposite. Fin forward for loose in the small and back for higher speed, bigger.
The swing turn with the foot back, that'll always go.
Hi J..... with a big fin, the "swing turn" is more than simply raising the nose and pivoting a turn.....
it feels exactly like a driving "kick turn" on a skateboard
I can actually carve a small turn without juice, by "flicking" with my rear ankle... it pushes against the fin and gives me the burst I need to carry out the turn with some speed.
With a smaller fin, my push would give back nothing..... the tail would slide and all speed would be gone.
I made a short video that sort of shows what I'm describing.
it shows a series of turns after I have scrubbed off all speed..... you can see the nice little carve I get by driving off a big fin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVb7i2-wenk
Exactly what I mean. A skateboard style kick turn. This has been in my repertoire for logs since I was a kid.
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Great video!
Why are you using 10 6 boards instead of the 9 footers to do this? Because of the lower energies of the waves and added flat water speed, glide and stability? Also they have the proper fin box in the center?
Any other reasons for using a large board in small surf, which many seem to prefer?
I regularly ride a 10'2 in small surf because a big board makes it a lot more fun. They catch gutless waves extremely easily, glide great and get going in minimal energy. I'll ride an 8'5 or smaller board in better surf, but the big board is the ticket for tiny stuff. Takes good foot technique to make them turn though. Creek is the footwork guru.