Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Downwind and Racing => Topic started by: digger71 on July 21, 2016, 04:55:04 PM
-
A few years ago Jim Terrell wrote an articlehttp://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/ (http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/) pushing for board size restrictions and a 4 meter board class. His concern was mainly based on the technology advances being seen in flatwater racing, and the fear that the sport would move away from it's surfing roots and lose it's appeal to the masses. I'm not a racer but remember thinking that if the sport moved in the direction of Olympic canoeing it would be depressing, but at least stand open ocean paddling and downwinding would retain their surfing roots.
Then I saw this when watching the Maui 2 Molokai race highlights. This new dugout board from DEEP that was very successful at M2M, and which might be even better suited to M2O, seems to be more "boat" and less "board". Jimmy Casey and Matt Nottage had top 5 finishes with this, and while those guys would be fast paddling my coffee table, the fact that they chose to race this board rather than their SIC boards says something.
I've never been on a board with such a dugout but imagine they 1) hurt like hell to fall on, 2) make it difficult to remount the board, and 3) have to have some issue with weight when that thing fills with water (I see the drain holes, but still). Could be a very fast board if you don't plan to fall I guess.
More importantly to me though, it just doesn't look that fun to surf! Maybe I'm wrong...
They are Aussie made and clearly those are Aussie racers using them - here is a discussion from Seabreeze about the boards
http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/Deep-M20/
(http://www.seabreeze.com.au/img/photos/stand_up_paddle/10873331.jpg)
(http://www.seabreeze.com.au/img/photos/stand_up_paddle/10873335.jpg)
-
I would argue no.
Dugout boards like the Starboard ACE have been around for years (before Jim wrote that article) and are very effective in sloppy choppy conditions, going up wind as well as downwinding. Take a look at the videos for the King of the Cut everyone was on dugouts.
As to your specific points
1) They only hurt more if you fall on the edges, I haven't managed that in several years of paddling ACEs
2) Actually I can get on a dugout faster than a flat board. I wrap an elbow over the edge and just lever myself on. You can also catch the board as you fall by grabbing the raised edge :)
3) Yeah they really suck when they fill up and the drain hole usually only work when they are moving
And they really don't surf. When you catch a wave you have to just straight line it and hang on. Our national downwinder ended at a beach with dumping overhead, I was really happy when I didn't take the drop on the set wave I tried for as I got to the beach, but I still got worked over in the white water
-
Yeah, no.
the industry has largely ignored the substantial gains available from taking footwells all the way to the skin. From my memory of calculations i did six or seven years ago, I think you get about a ten percent gain in paddle efficiency. When you lower the paddler the downward vector of applied force decreases and the rearward vector increases. You also drop the roll center lower to increase stability. The big bugaboo is drainage, which was solved ages ago in canoes and surfskis, but boardmakers ignored the high volume drainers in favor of simple holes. No idea why. Not invented here??
Jim was talking about a completely different issue, the narrowing of paddling to a smaller group of people who could win--but IMO he took a silly course to do so, making boards even shorter. and then coming up with restrictive specs that would have eliminated all innovation, or led to silly "spec" boards that skirted some element of rule loopholes. Nothing kills a sport faster.
In car racing, when the spec racers hit the track the few fans in the stands go get a beer. No serious racer drives a spec car until you get to F1 and the like, where the rulebook is 500 pages and requires four engineers and two lawyers to understand.
-
I gotta admit Kaihoe I didn't realize how deep those Starboard Ace's really were - just haven't seen a lot in person around here for some reason. And you're not kidding about King of the Cut, dugouts are everywhere! https://vimeo.com/148195646
And Pono, JT talked about deck depth but I assume that was just a way to get the board narrower without being too tippy. Have you seen many dugout type boards used on Maliko or in Hood River? They may have been there and I just wasn't paying attention.
-
I would say this is related to what he warned us about, in regard to the recessed decks. These particular ones would have been allowed under his proposed rules, since he saw unlimiteds as an "anything goes" category, without restrictions. But outside ULs, he wanted to limit deck recesses to 7 cm (2.76") which is way less than what these boards look like they have, and less than many recessed decks from many manufacturers.
-
There are a few boards with a little recess, but the way to really gain is to go to the skin--just a PVC sandwich.
That is one butt-ugly looking steering system by the way. they copied Mark's mistake of putting the centering spring on the tiller. silly stuff. If you put the spring on the rudder the friction of all the tiller mechanism doesn't affect centering and you can make the spring (batten) much lighter. People who have tried that used a heavy batten and didn't like the effect. I use a super-light batten and it works great, with micro adjustments to rudder trim and no stiction. Kind of obvious, but nothing is obvious when you copy.
-
Next years NSP flatwater race board has a v deep dugout. Looks like the riders feet are below water level. As close to "skin" that pono is talking about as I imagine possible.
-
Yeah that steering system looks like a very cheap unsophisticated tweak and copy. Stepping around and back looks to be somewhat uncomfortable and a tripping hazard!
-
Yeah that steering system looks like a very cheap unsophisticated tweak and copy. Stepping around and back looks to be somewhat uncomfortable and a tripping hazard!
I thought the steering cords were going to be covered in the finished product, but it seems they just stay exposed as you see them. Here is a pretty cool 360 video of Jimmy Casey during the M2M - small sample of a 3+ hour crossing but not a lot of movement.
https://www.facebook.com/CGTing/videos/10210381165953271/
-
I would argue no.
Dugout boards like the Starboard ACE have been around for years (before Jim wrote that article) and are very effective in sloppy choppy conditions, going up wind as well as downwinding. Take a look at the videos for the King of the Cut everyone was on dugouts.
As to your specific points
1) They only hurt more if you fall on the edges, I haven't managed that in several years of paddling ACEs
2) Actually I can get on a dugout faster than a flat board. I wrap an elbow over the edge and just lever myself on. You can also catch the board as you fall by grabbing the raised edge :)
3) Yeah they really suck when they fill up and the drain hole usually only work when they are moving
And they really don't surf. When you catch a wave you have to just straight line it and hang on. Our national downwinder ended at a beach with dumping overhead, I was really happy when I didn't take the drop on the set wave I tried for as I got to the beach, but I still got worked over in the white water
I paddle both dug-outs and flat decked boards. The dugout regularly leaves me with bruises from climbing back in in choppy seas - its easy to catch a knee or ankle. It is much harder and slower to get back on (actually, in) a dug-out, and some people really struggle: if you have little upper body strength then you might not actually be able to do it, at least not without considerable instruction and practice.
Beach starts are extremely awkward with dugouts.
Yes, they are awkward to surf - although the Ace actually surfs better than some flat-decked boards I've tried.
Yes, when they swamp, like when pushing through sizeable chop, you really are in a bit of a pickle. In a tight race it would pretty much be game over.
They are very awkward to carry. You have a very wide rail and a handle that is inside the cockpit so your arm/hand has to go over the rail into the board to carry it. This presses on your forearm and is unpleasant. You kinda have to carry them by the rail but this is very awkward in any kind of wind.
They are also a bit awkward to transport, and to stack on roofracks with other boards.
It is pretty uncomfortable to rest on them when you don't want to paddle. It's tough to sit on them with your feet in the water and relax. This might seem like a small point if you are a full-on racer, but if you are a recreational paddler who likes to take regular rest breaks, or likes to stop and admire the view or chat to friends, then it is surprisingly annoying in terms of day-to-day ownership.
There are also some advantages. As PB mentioned, the ability to use a shorter paddle is very useful (and faster), and if you are touring it is easy to load up the cockpit with lots of kit.
And, there are actually some times when dugouts are a total pleasure to use. If DW conditions are smallish and there is plenty of wind push, they can skip from one bump over into the trough in front, and keep going like that almost endlessly. It can be extremely exhilarating. You aren't so much riding bumps as skipping right over them. It is hugely addictive. So if you have the skills, and the conditions, they can make a typical heavily-rockered "surfboard-type" DW board seem a bit leaden. You sure have to be on your game though: it is fun but exhausting and the concentration requirements are extraordinary.
So, overall, dugouts are brutally effective race machines aimed at those who care about performance over paddling pleasure or adaptability. So pdxmike is right IMO: I think that there is a small hint here of what JT was talking about. But they are undeniably effective if you have the skills to use them. So they are here to stay.
And let's remember that the M2M wasn't actually won on a dug-out. Although if conditions had been really small it probably would have been. If you want to be fast at all costs in downbreezing conditions an Ace-like dugout is pretty much unbeatable. I can't imagine many people in the world have the skills to use a narrow pintail dugout in big conditions on eg. the M2O. So I doubt that they will ever become widely used - and the M2O is as much "an event" as a race, so paddling ease and pleasure, and safety, will always be a concern to many taking part, rather than the last fraction of one percent performance that the elites are fighting over.
I'm becoming less and less sure that racing is going to be the dominant ethos in SUP. It seems to me that the number of people who have never raced, or who have raced and didn't like it, or who used to race but now don't, are starting to overwhelm the numbers of keen currently active racers. So it perhaps won't matter too much even if racers adopt some weird standard for their crafts. It will just accelerate the exodus from racing, and not affect the majority of SUPers much at all. JT's "zombie apocalypse" scenario perhaps overestimated the influence of racing upon the overall SUP community. Very keen racers are a very visible and vocal lot. But they really are an increasingly small fraction of the overall community.
This coming year, SIC, who have surely been one of the most race-oriented SUP outfits from the very beginning, aren't bringing out new narrower super-high spec 14ft raceboards. Instead, they are bringing out ruddered 12-6 and 14ft versions of their all-conditions, flat-decked boards (FX) that are 30" wide. The rudders won't even be race-legal (although you can fit a fixed fin too if you did want to race). So much for boards getting ever more specialised and difficult to ride...
-
Absolutely.
I think there will always be a significant number of racers and some race boards, but 99% of the race boards I see get used for downwinders, and are never raced. The tide could be turned by more casual races, but the big venue stuff is probably on a down cycle. Very smart of SIC to ignore the push for performance and focus on fun. You'd think the old surfboard manufacturers would have learned their lesson with the collapse of windsurfing into overpriced, overspecialized, overperfomanced(??) equiipment that required expert capabilities to use--and therefore no new blood coming into a sport that was already difficult to learn. But they surely haven't. Even their touring models are a challenge to a newb or a heavy paddler.
Motorcycle manufacturers did the same stupid thing--eliminated the entry level and focused on the most profitable models. Good for the bottom line today, death tomorrow. Royal Enfield produced 302,000 bikes in 2014, Harley-Davidson produced 270,000.
Even sillier are the race organizers, who insist that everyone have a race board to play. Instead of creating classes in the open groups where people with ordinary boards of any flavor can participate and try out the sport (and perhaps get hooked) they close the door and specify which boards are permitted and reduce the number of classes. They've also ignored the fact that people like to be recognized for their effort. What are they trying to do? Save money on five dollar trophies awarded to ten percent of the people who paid fifty to a hundred bucks to race? It's the dumbest thing I've seen since vintage car racing, where the insistance that "the cars are the stars" and only awarding trophies for random characteristics (everyone in third place gets a trophy) ignores the fact that people pay the entry fees. Naturally vintage grids in the US, where this stupid meme held sway, are shrinking rapidly as the geezers kick the bucket.
Who is the customer? What makes them happy?
I joke about being clean and sober from marketing for ten years, but I do have a marketer's outlook on motivation and inclusion. This kind of stuff is the very thing we advised clients to pay close attention to. And it works like gangbusters. the companies and entrepreneurs who ignored these obvious concepts are back living with their Mom, wondering why someone who built the same products they did got rich, while they went broke.
-
Interesting how things evolve over time. Once upon a time, SUP was not even a separate sport from surfing. It WAS surfing but just opting to use a paddle instead of lying down and popping up to the feet. Granted it was just a novelty. There were no purposely built SUP boards and paddles were any kind of makeshift concoctions to allow a long enough stem so the rider would not remain in a bent down position. Fast forward to 2016 and the sport is now a well-established mainstream (well almost) recreation. The majority of paddlers are not surfers and even the main growth of the sport is in areas far from any ocean coastline. It only stands to reason that the sport is going to be seen more and more as an extension of the paddle sports world than an extension of surfing. With that being said, I think it’s a natural progression that boards (that are not designed to actually surf with) are going to be moving farther and farther away from the sport’s roots in surfing. Downwind boards are their own entity but boards used in lakes and flat water bays and even coastal ocean areas where wave riding is not in the equation are going to be heading into some interesting designs.
Jim Terrell has some interesting and controversial ideas about boards and restrictions and his fears of the sport’s direction are not unfounded, however they are inevitability where much of the sport will be headed due to the very fact it is no longer just an alternative way to surf. He’s worried about how the sport’s move away from its surfing roots is going be less appealing to the masses but the fact is the “masses” don’t surf. They don’t race either but I think if they live in a land locked area the surfing aspect of it is going to matter even less. Just my two cents.
-
Just an idea that popped into my head. While these dugout boards were designed with racing in mind, I have to wonder they would actually be a fun type of board to paddle in a flat lake just for fun. Without the chop of open ocean less water will get in and I can see these being a lot of fun just to slice through the water in.
-
I would argue no.
Dugout boards like the Starboard ACE have been around for years (before Jim wrote that article) and are very effective in sloppy choppy conditions, going up wind as well as downwinding. Take a look at the videos for the King of the Cut everyone was on dugouts.
Agreed. Jim was talking about mainly flatwater narrow board racing (and had one made for a 200m race to showcase the risk). These are open water unlimited boards and not really relevant to most races.
However, his concerns (and mine that I raised in a article that followed on from his on the same site) will be potentially realised in 2017 when Starboard releases in 21.5 width sprint board.
-
Interesting how things evolve over time. Once upon a time, SUP was not even a separate sport from surfing. It WAS surfing but just opting to use a paddle instead of lying down and popping up to the feet. Granted it was just a novelty. There were no purposely built SUP boards and paddles were any kind of makeshift concoctions to allow a long enough stem so the rider would not remain in a bent down position. Fast forward to 2016 and the sport is now a well-established mainstream (well almost) recreation. The majority of paddlers are not surfers and even the main growth of the sport is in areas far from any ocean coastline. It only stands to reason that the sport is going to be seen more and more as an extension of the paddle sports world than an extension of surfing. With that being said, I think it’s a natural progression that boards (that are not designed to actually surf with) are going to be moving farther and farther away from the sport’s roots in surfing. Downwind boards are their own entity but boards used in lakes and flat water bays and even coastal ocean areas where wave riding is not in the equation are going to be heading into some interesting designs.
Jim Terrell has some interesting and controversial ideas about boards and restrictions and his fears of the sport’s direction are not unfounded, however they are inevitability where much of the sport will be headed due to the very fact it is no longer just an alternative way to surf. He’s worried about how the sport’s move away from its surfing roots is going be less appealing to the masses but the fact is the “masses” don’t surf. They don’t race either but I think if they live in a land locked area the surfing aspect of it is going to matter even less. Just my two cents.
surf4food--you have a way of taking the words right out of my mouth before I even know what the words should be. You summed it up well. I'd guess very few people who do standup here in the NW surf--and even fewer than here do in the middle 90% of the U.S. Most here now would be kayaking if standup hadn't come along. If a board with a deep recess works better for paddling on a lake or river, or in Puget Sound, the last thing people care about here is whether that "takes them from their surfing roots". It's basically an unrelated sport for people who've never surfed and are in non-surf-type conditions.
-
Just an idea that popped into my head. While these dugout boards were designed with racing in mind, I have to wonder they would actually be a fun type of board to paddle in a flat lake just for fun. Without the chop of open ocean less water will get in and I can see these being a lot of fun just to slice through the water in.
The old Starboard K15 was not only the board you're talking about, I believe it's also the reason we have 14' as the standard for race boards today. I think Naish knew that if the K15's raced against their 14 Jav's that the Jav would be toast even if the K15 had a less talented paddler. Hence the Naish series was limited to 14' and the SUP world ossified around that standard. K15's were silly fast in the right conditions and a total barge with water slowly draining from the well. Starboard ditched them much too early--when the SUP world was focused on the coasts. Today they'd probably sell well--except for the fact that you can't race them.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/djp-2/P5080024Medium.jpg)
-
Just an idea that popped into my head. While these dugout boards were designed with racing in mind, I have to wonder they would actually be a fun type of board to paddle in a flat lake just for fun. Without the chop of open ocean less water will get in and I can see these being a lot of fun just to slice through the water in.
The old Starboard K15 was not only the board you're talking about, I believe it's also the reason we have 14' as the standard for race boards today. I think Naish knew that if the K15's raced against their 14 Jav's that the Jav would be toast even if the K15 had a less talented paddler. Hence the Naish series was limited to 14' and the SUP world ossified around that standard. K15's were silly fast in the right conditions and a total barge with water slowly draining from the well. Starboard ditched them much too early--when the SUP world was focused on the coasts. Today they'd probably sell well--except for the fact that you can't race them.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/djp-2/P5080024Medium.jpg)
One of the top mens 14ft paddlers in the UK still races his (but had it shortened to 14ft). Fast but bloody heavy.
-
Just an idea that popped into my head. While these dugout boards were designed with racing in mind, I have to wonder they would actually be a fun type of board to paddle in a flat lake just for fun. Without the chop of open ocean less water will get in and I can see these being a lot of fun just to slice through the water in.
I've never had a board with a deep recess, but I've tried them. I don't like some things about them, but the fact you can add stability without going wider and therefore slower (and harder to keep the paddle upright) is great, and that does make them fun on flatwater--who doesn't like more speed without more tippiness? And some of their drawbacks (taking on water, possibility of falling on a rail, etc.) fall away on flatwater.
In fact, I think manufacturers sometimes forget that some things that make boards better for racing also make them more enjoyable for daily paddling, and that people will skew their board selections based on that. So, for instance, they don't want "high-performance" shapes to be available only in expensive, flimsy construction whereas if racing were all that mattered, cost and flimsiness might be accepted for a small increase in speed.
What I disliked most about the attempted move a few years ago to establish board limits on width, weight and especially recesses was when manufacturers agreed to stop selling non-rule-compliant boards, thus making, for instance, boards with deep recesses unavailable to people whose priority wasn't racing.
-
ukgm--great example. The K15 seems like it would be a great board for me, for reasons that a lot of people would share--performance on flatwater for larger people who don't race seriously, or have other boards for racing. In fact, the 14'+ to 16' range seems ideal for many people for many reasons, but it's a horrible length for racing--even if you can find a race with a UL class, you'd have the shortest board in it.
-
Just an idea that popped into my head. While these dugout boards were designed with racing in mind, I have to wonder they would actually be a fun type of board to paddle in a flat lake just for fun. Without the chop of open ocean less water will get in and I can see these being a lot of fun just to slice through the water in.
Yeah, except that they aren't, particularly, at least in their current configuration, which do not have cutting bows. The Mistral Equinox 14 is quite pleasant to paddle in flat water, for instance, but most people who could handle that board (24.6"
Wide) would rather be on something like the SIC X14Pro, which is a full displacement design. At the moment, at least, dugouts are aimed at coastal racers and are a hybrid-type bow design.
But the SB K15 (RIP) wasn't a hundred miles away from a canoe that you stand up in, so I can see that type of design making a return, for inland paddlers. Maybe it's because the main (non-specialist) SUP brands are mostly windsurfing/kitesurfing brands that there are not already fleets of SUPs for inland paddlers that are similar to the K15 (possibly the first production dug-out SUP?).
-
Just an idea that popped into my head. While these dugout boards were designed with racing in mind, I have to wonder they would actually be a fun type of board to paddle in a flat lake just for fun. Without the chop of open ocean less water will get in and I can see these being a lot of fun just to slice through the water in.
Yeah, except that they aren't, particularly, at least in their current configuration, which do not have cutting bows. The Mistral Equinox 14 is quite pleasant to paddle in flat water, for instance, but most people who could handle that board (24.6"
Wide) would rather be on something like the SIC X14Pro, which is a full displacement design. At the moment, at least, dugouts are aimed at coastal racers and are a hybrid-type bow design.
But the SB K15 (RIP) wasn't a hundred miles away from a canoe that you stand up in, so I can see that type of design making a return, for inland paddlers. Maybe it's because the main (non-specialist) SUP brands are mostly windsurfing/kitesurfing brands that there are not already fleets of SUPs for inland paddlers that are similar to the K15 (possibly the first production dug-out SUP?).
I was just curios how these boards would be for flat-water recreation.
-
My perspective is no doubt influenced by my background. I come to SUP from surfing, and a majority of my SUP time now is SUS. I probably SUS ~200 days a year, downwind maybe 25 days, and flatwater paddle when I have to in order to be in shape for downwinding.
With that said, while "the masses don't surf" I think a large part of the popularity of SUP to those masses is based on it's surfing roots. I'm guessing there were stand up kayaks or other crafts before Laird brought SUP into popular culture, but they never gained the attention SUP and its surfing roots did.
I made the switch from prone to stand up surfing for good about 5 years ago and would casually paddle flatwater. I had no clue that downwinding was even a "thing" until a couple years ago when someone showed me a video of Jeremy Riggs (think this is the one below). I was hooked and made my first trip to Maui shortly after. I get that most will never downwind in conditions like this and basically none will move like JR, but for me a guy standing still in a dugout wouldn't have had the same impact.
https://vimeo.com/49651165 (https://vimeo.com/49651165)
-
With that said, while "the masses don't surf" I think a large part of the popularity of SUP to those masses is based on it's surfing roots. I'm guessing there were stand up kayaks or other crafts before Laird brought SUP into popular culture, but they never gained the attention SUP and its surfing roots did.
https://vimeo.com/49651165 (https://vimeo.com/49651165)
I'd agree agree there's some connection between it's growing popularity and its surfing roots, but I don't think most non surfing SUPers fancy themselves as being part of surf culture.
On nn unrelated question to the OP but relevant to the vid you posted. Are the steering mechanisms on these SIC boards available based on being either a goofy or regular foot?
-
I agree with digger also that even in places like here without much surfing, the perceived connection with surfing may add a "coolness" factor that may add to the initial attraction. After that, though, I don't think people care, at least not to the point they're interested in hampering performance and enjoyment by sticking to board designs that aren't suited as well as possible to their non-surfing paddling.
Then there's the thing that happens to anyone with no surfing background or knowledge who DOES feel a connection to surfing culture when they buy a standup board--they find out "real" surfers don't like standup. So again, why sacrifice your performance paddling on an inland lake by sticking with boards that look like surfboards, instead of something better suited to your activity, all to avoid deviating from "the roots" of a sport that doesn't even like you already?
-
On nn unrelated question to the OP but relevant to the vid you posted. Are the steering mechanisms on these SIC boards available based on being either a goofy or regular foot?
On the production boards they are plumbed for both regular and goofy and can be switched. Assume on some/most customs they are only on one side, but not sure how prevalent that is.
-
This was a REALLY interesting article by Steve West from Jan 2013 regarding his take on SUP history. Jim Terrell is adamant that SUP is primarily rooted in surfing (as am I) but Steve West is more adamant of outrigger canoe as its catalyst. Chicken or the egg.
http://www.supracer.com/steve-west-the-roots-of-stand-up-paddling/
-
This was a REALLY interesting article by Steve West from Jan 2013 regarding his take on SUP history. Jim Terrell is adamant that SUP is primarily rooted in surfing (as am I) but Steve West is more adamant of outrigger canoe as its catalyst. Chicken or the egg.
http://www.supracer.com/steve-west-the-roots-of-stand-up-paddling/
If I had just seen that article and the accompanying comments earlier I could have saved Admin some bandwidth ;) They had this same conversation and covered most of the same points 3 years ago.
-
Steve West's position has merit, but who cares? Virtually every person who would even bother to think about the roots of SUP think it's surfing. An academic rationale for thinking otherwise is an interesting exercise, certainly the kind of folly that I indulge in, but ultimately doesn't change anything.
The majority of SUP growth is currently inland. Lots of lakes and rivers and a lot of people. They don't think much about the roots, they just like the idea of what a SUP does--which is a lot of stuff. That's the element that surfer's don't understand. they look at SUP and see something encroaching on surfing. We look at SUP and see a bicycle for the water.
-
It's important to know so if we paddle recessed boards we know whether to feel guilt for betraying the roots of the sport.
-
Steve West's position has merit, but who cares? Virtually every person who would even bother to think about the roots of SUP think it's surfing. An academic rationale for thinking otherwise is an interesting exercise, certainly the kind of folly that I indulge in, but ultimately doesn't change anything.
The majority of SUP growth is currently inland. Lots of lakes and rivers and a lot of people. They don't think much about the roots, they just like the idea of what a SUP does--which is a lot of stuff. That's the element that surfer's don't understand. they look at SUP and see something encroaching on surfing. We look at SUP and see a bicycle for the water.
Yes.
Steve West is a windsurfer from Hayling Island in the UK (where there was no OC while he lived there through youth and early adulthood) who subsequently left to go to other countries and then discovered OC and other paddlesports. He doesn't surf, as far as I know, at least not seriously. Now he lectures us on the Polynesian roots of just about everything, like a born-again evangelist will tell you that having bread with a meal was invented by Jesus.
He is a talented guy - what he has done for Mistral SUP in a short space of time is remarkable. But he needs to sell books. To sell books, you have to say sonething a bit different. So he does the "mystical Tahitian" thing, pimping the lineage of another culture (indeed, perhaps it is even what is now called "cultural appropriation") and because we use a paddle, suddenly SUP is an off-shoot of another sport that 99.9% of SUPers have never tried, and never will.
So, is he in effect a white man with dreadlocks, selling Bob Marley t-shirt? Or is he an immigrant ambassador for Polynesian culture acting selflessly to promote the achievements of a people far distant from his own roots? I have no idea. You make up your own mind. As you will about whether SUP came from Laird and the Waikkiki beach boys experimenting by using a OC paddle on their surfboards, and whether the presence of either the paddle or the surfboard was the most important feature in that scenario as far as tracing the lineage of the sport goes. Most of us focus on the surfboard, and the purpose (ie. surfing, not transport or racing). Steve West sees that scenario and sees only the paddle. Make up your own mind about what you see.
-
I agree with digger also that even in places like here without much surfing, the perceived connection with surfing may add a "coolness" factor that may add to the initial attraction. After that, though, I don't think people care, at least not to the point they're interested in hampering performance and enjoyment by sticking to board designs that aren't suited as well as possible to their non-surfing paddling.
Then there's the thing that happens to anyone with no surfing background or knowledge who DOES feel a connection to surfing culture when they buy a standup board--they find out "real" surfers don't like standup. So again, why sacrifice your performance paddling on an inland lake by sticking with boards that look like surfboards, instead of something better suited to your activity, all to avoid deviating from "the roots" of a sport that doesn't even like you already?
Exactly. Agree 100%. Ironic JT is so worried about the "cool" factor diminishing as a result of SUP moving away from surfing when surfers think SUP is about as cool as an accordion player (and I like accordion).
-
Steve West's position has merit, but who cares? Virtually every person who would even bother to think about the roots of SUP think it's surfing. An academic rationale for thinking otherwise is an interesting exercise, certainly the kind of folly that I indulge in, but ultimately doesn't change anything.
The majority of SUP growth is currently inland. Lots of lakes and rivers and a lot of people. They don't think much about the roots, they just like the idea of what a SUP does--which is a lot of stuff. That's the element that surfer's don't understand. they look at SUP and see something encroaching on surfing. We look at SUP and see a bicycle for the water.
At the end of the day, none of it matters but it makes for an interesting conversation.
-
Some of the early SUP pioneers (both John Zapotocky and Pops Ah Choy I think) didn't use canoe paddles, they used light oars. I guess Steve might argue that SUP descended from Dinghies. I'm sure the surfers would like that.
-
I didn't know that Steve West was from the UK. There's a California Steve West who many people here know. I guess that makes the UK Steve the Steve West of the East, and the other the Steve West of the West.
-
I just want to say, as an inland-only, lake-only guy, I feel zero connection to surfing and I'm surprised it matters to anyone. I'm the guy who otherwise kayaks - usually in my plastic "toy" kayak, but sometimes in my old Pacific Designs Sea-Otter (40 year old fiberglass :D ) . It's 100% lakes and streams. Waves are made by boats going by.
-
I just want to say, as an inland-only, lake-only guy, I feel zero connection to surfing and I'm surprised it matters to anyone. I'm the guy who otherwise kayaks - usually in my plastic "toy" kayak, but sometimes in my old Pacific Designs Sea-Otter (40 year old fiberglass :D ) . It's 100% lakes and streams. Waves are made by boats going by.
..so is there ever windy days on the lake you paddle? Betcha there is. Try paddling with the wind one day. The stronger the wind the better. 15 knots sustained is a good start. It only gets better. Arrange for someone to pick you up at the other end. Then get back to us.. You'll need to talk about it...
-
well - ok I've done one "down breezer" - 20 to 30 mph winds, some whitecaps - and it was great fun. I did love that - a lot. We don't get those conditions often here in the lakes -
Now - Turnagain Arm gets some honking winds, and with the extreme tides the waves look fun. I know we have had windsurfers there for decades and the kiteboarders look like they have a blast....but the consequences for failure in that water/mud are severe. People are sup'ing the bore tide - seems ok - but the learning curve for "1 wave every 12 hours" seems rough :D
I don't want to say that waves can't be fun - but I'm trying to express my "I'm surprised there is a this is cool because surfers do it" mindset. I have a "this is cool because of what I can do that adds to what I've been doing for years on a kayak" mindset.
I do think I'd LOVE to learn to really downwind - I've never visited Hawaii but I have have a daughter in Oregon, maybe I can try the Gorge someday.
-
I gotta admit Kaihoe I didn't realize how deep those Starboard Ace's really were - just haven't seen a lot in person around here for some reason. And you're not kidding about King of the Cut, dugouts are everywhere! https://vimeo.com/148195646
And Pono, JT talked about deck depth but I assume that was just a way to get the board narrower without being too tippy. Have you seen many dugout type boards used on Maliko or in Hood River? They may have been there and I just wasn't paying attention.
The Starboard Ace has dominated the King of the Cut race for years now - mainly because it's the best performing 14' board in the great downwind conditions of that race. Yes, there's a learning curve to boards like the Ace, but it's clearly worth it in my opinion. Personally, I don't give a damn about how cool a board looks or its roots. I'm interested in how fun it is and how it performs. In downwind conditions up to about 25mph (30mph if you're really skilled), there just isn't another board that catches bumps and glides like the Ace. My idea of fun on a downwinder is catching as many bumps as I can and gliding as much as possible and nothing has come close the Ace for me. I've had 3 versions of the Ace in my quiver over the past several years (going back to the "New", the old name of the Ace). The Ace has been a constant for me while lots of other boards have come in and out of my quiver alongside the Ace. It's not by accident that the Ace has inspired many similar designs from a large number of other manufacturers.
If you live somewhere where you get lots of downwinders over 25mph (Maui, Gorge, etc.), then I'd look to a non-dugout board that would be more fun to surf and turn on big waves. I must admit, it's tricky to carve a turn on a wave on the Ace, although it can be done. Check out this video of a super skilled rider carving the Ace on a downwinder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbdKlEpK4rg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbdKlEpK4rg)
Here's a bigger rider doing a great job surfing the Ace:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piiZYxxvZzw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piiZYxxvZzw)
As for the difficulty of falling off and getting back on, yes it's trickier, but once you learn the technique, it's not really an issue. I just jump off when I reach the tipping point of no return. No bruised shins. This is me in the process of ejecting:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-h0oJxp12Pm4/ViECWo7DrCI/AAAAAAAAwNU/TTY-XFnKttI/s640/2015-10-11%2BGarmin%2B08.jpg)
As mentioned, you can grab the raised sides as you fall in to keep the board near you:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JGxDSVdet9w/ViECWmmT9tI/AAAAAAAAwNU/eGvTZ0TYme4/s640/2015-10-11%2BGarmin%2B10.jpg)
There's also a technique for getting back on in rough water, but I won't go into it here.
-
I gotta admit Kaihoe I didn't realize how deep those Starboard Ace's really were - just haven't seen a lot in person around here for some reason. And you're not kidding about King of the Cut, dugouts are everywhere!
And Pono, JT talked about deck depth but I assume that was just a way to get the board narrower without being too tippy. Have you seen many dugout type boards used on Maliko or in Hood River? They may have been there and I just wasn't paying attention.
The Starboard Ace has dominated the King of the Cut race for years now - mainly because it's the best performing 14' board in the great downwind conditions of that race. Yes, there's a learning curve to boards like the Ace, but it's clearly worth it in my opinion. Personally, I don't give a damn about how cool a board looks or its roots. I'm interested in how fun it is and how it performs. In downwind conditions up to about 25mph (30mph if you're really skilled), there just isn't another board that catches bumps and glides like the Ace. My idea of fun on a downwinder is catching as many bumps as I can and gliding as much as possible and nothing has come close the Ace for me. I've had 3 versions of the Ace in my quiver over the past several years (going back to the "New", the old name of the Ace). The Ace has been a constant for me while lots of other boards have come in and out of my quiver alongside the Ace. It's not by accident that the Ace has inspired many similar designs from a large number of other manufacturers.
If you live somewhere where you get lots of downwinders over 25mph (Maui, Gorge, etc.), then I'd look to a non-dugout board that would be more fun to surf and turn on big waves. I must admit, it's tricky to carve a turn on a wave on the Ace, although it can be done. Check out this video of a super skilled rider carving the Ace on a downwinder:
There's also a technique for getting back on in rough water, but I won't go into it here.
The new Mistral Equinox is an evolved version of the older Ace so if people like the feel of the Ace, they might want to try that board too (I personally found it a bit too rolling for my tastes).
-
Lots of Aces in the Gorge, and lots of Naish boards, but SIC Bullet 14s dominate probably 5 to 1.
-
my recessed decks are opened at tail, gives an advantage on the Aces, but this is a different design. No problem for surfing, however I guess such boards are for ocean touring and light to medium DW conditions, not for surf or beach-races.
-
Open tails work pretty well, though there is a bit more slosh time. Stuey Campbell did them on Penetrators with a bridge. I thought there might be a flapper valve under the bridge, but no. The NACA-style bilge drainers on most OCs and Surfskis actively suck when you're moving. One little piece of carbon or plastic. Works gangbusters.
-
I just want to say, as an inland-only, lake-only guy, I feel zero connection to surfing and I'm surprised it matters to anyone. I'm the guy who otherwise kayaks - usually in my plastic "toy" kayak, but sometimes in my old Pacific Designs Sea-Otter (40 year old fiberglass :D ) . It's 100% lakes and streams. Waves are made by boats going by.
I'm with Deepmud. I'm a reformed whitewater paddler/seakayaker and guideboat rower. I feel no connection to the "surfing roots" of the sport. I mainly paddle lakes in rivers here in New England, but spend 2 weeks each year getting blown and bounced around Martha's Vineyard. SUP for me is an "easier" way to get on the water, and it provides a better workout. I love it when I have some bumps to glide on.
I would love a recessed-deck board for my use, reducing the width while maintaining stability would be great. The short-period boat wakes waves still give me problems. Big ocean swells no problem.
I have tried SUS and it is a blast - if I lived out on the Cape or the south shore of Long Island I would be doing that all the time.
-
my recessed decks are opened at tail, gives an advantage on the Aces, but this is a different design. No problem for surfing, however I guess such boards are for ocean touring and light to medium DW conditions, not for surf or beach-races.
Board name is the "Pierrotrator"? Ha ha! :)
-
Here's an old Hobie 18' x 25" that drained out the tail. This was built for Chuck Patterson probably 10 years ago. I raced it for a while. I cracked my ribs on the sharp top rail while falling in the wake of a big ferry boat. It had too much rocker. I surfed it a number of times, but the rocker killed the speed.
BTW, I designed the Craftsman Style home in the background:) It's what I do when I'm not paddling.
-
Awesome, this 18' Hobie, a pity that rocker is too much, better to have a bit too flat that too much, as speed is allowed by a flattest rocker on longest part of board...
Regarding Jim terrel "philosophy" I admit that a 4 m class out of UL may be profitable, but I am not afaid about loss of "surfing" roots as SUP takes roots in surf as well as in canoeing/kayaking/ sailing... handling a 18 footer on a downwinder does not need only a surfing background, and performing a flat water sprint is much closer to canoeing, excepted the difference on design.
-
It's important to know so if we paddle recessed boards we know whether to feel guilt for betraying the roots of the sport.
That is very, very funny.
I'll add it to my personal list of irrational guilts. Always room for one more.
-
It’s funny for me. I come from a surfing background (tho I am no Kelly Slater by a long shot) and standup IS very much a direct offshoot of surfing, unlike what Steve West implies. As I said before, once upon a time it wasn’t even a separate sport from surfing, but now it's moved far beyond just surfing to where the surfing part is only a small part overall of the sport. So with that being said, I kind of feel more of a connection to outrigger (even tho I’ve only paddle an outrigger canoe once in my entire life) than I do surfing when I’m out paddling. I would love to try OC1 one of these days but in the meantime SUP is a more accessible way to do something close to it.
-
Just saw this posted in the M2O thread but figured I would drop it in over here as well. Robert from BluePlanet giving us a great look at James Casey's DEEP board.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz5p1NzSVBo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz5p1NzSVBo)
-
This coming year, SIC, who have surely been one of the most race-oriented SUP outfits from the very beginning, aren't bringing out new narrower super-high spec 14ft raceboards. Instead, they are bringing out ruddered 12-6 and 14ft versions of their all-conditions, flat-decked boards (FX) that are 30" wide. The rudders won't even be race-legal (although you can fit a fixed fin too if you did want to race). So much for boards getting ever more specialised and difficult to ride...
Sorry to hijack the discussion, but as I found this thread searching for info on the SIC FX, this comment caught my eye. What kind of conditions/usage is a 30"-wide FX with a rudder aimed at? I thought the FX was designed to be a little more conditions-tolerant than the X-14 Pro, but a lot more race-oriented than the Bullets. So why make a fat one with a non-race compliant rudder? If the idea is a downwind board for big riders or beginners needing more stability, wouldn't one of the Bullets be a better basis for such a design?
-
It's for the large chunk (large, get it?) of us who don't give a rat's ass about racing. We're into fun. The FX shapes owe a lot to the V2 and V3 custom bullets as well as the flat water X series. The idea of a rudder that can be swapped out for a fixed fin is just what the doctor ordered.. if you're really stuck on the idea of a race, easy Peasy. But really, it's a board for touring in all waters. Who wants to spend all their energy balancing on a skinny anorexic race board? Some, sure, but for every 1 person obsessed with competing there's probably ten who really just don't care. That's the market.
-
I fully understand the convenience of a rudder for general riding, most especially, or even exclusively, for sidewind conditions. But I wonder… as much as paddling on one side sucks and extra effort is supplied to keep craft from heading downwind isn’t a rudder cranked to keep the board heading into the wind a full-on hand brake.
In sailing being overpowered in the sails (then leaning and luffing) and compensating by a constant hard core bearing off at the tiller is as close as one can come to putting hand brakes on a sailing craft. Definitely the exclusive domain of kooks. Any sailor worth their salt refrains from such measures.
So I wonder about the usefulness of a tiller on recreational SUP. Could be a false comfort.
-
It's for the large chunk (large, get it?) of us who don't give a rat's ass about racing. We're into fun. The FX shapes owe a lot to the V2 and V3 custom bullets as well as the flat water X series. The idea of a rudder that can be swapped out for a fixed fin is just what the doctor ordered.. if you're really stuck on the idea of a race, easy Peasy. But really, it's a board for touring in all waters. Who wants to spend all their energy balancing on a skinny anorexic race board? Some, sure, but for every 1 person obsessed with competing there's probably ten who really just don't care. That's the market.
Muskoka, I totally understand the need for a board like that, but isn't the F14 already that board from SIC? From their website:
The F 14.0 offers more volume and stability without sacrificing performance. The wider mid-point and widened tail enables the paddlers to put power behind their stroke and mitigate power loss often associated with rail-to-rail instability. The rocker profile is de- rived from the new Bullet 14.0 V2, which makes the board quick to plane and prolongs the glide. The F 14.0 was designed for the larger bodied paddler who is looking for more stability. It’s multi-purpose fitness, down-winding and touring hull design makes this board a crowd pleaser. Make no mistake, if you want to feel confident and secure in all conditions, the F 14.0 will give you confidence in the open water like no other.
I guess I could see if the wide FX is intended as a more flatwater-friendly board than the FX, it's just that a steering system seems unnecessary for such a board. Not having any experience with steering systems, though, maybe they're more versatile than I imagine. ???
-
Companies sell what people want, or think they want. And it's a guessing game. Might be redundant, might not suit anyone, could be a big seller. If people perceive that a wider board will be better for them, that's what they'll buy. Likewise steering. Given that the general sup purchaser is a bit older and feels the constraints of age, a wider board with steering might be very attractive.
a rudder is definitely a two-edged sword. Use it too hard and the board drops out of a glide. Used without care it's a brake. But at the trim level (2-3 degrees) it's faster than foot-steering a fin board. I wouldn't have realized that if I hadn't made the RC rudder system with autopilot. Setting the autopilot to aim for a distant object and limiting the amount of trim proved to have a significant speed advantage. It's both the shortest course and least braking. Turning using the rails and fin slows the board too, the wig-wag course we generally take is not an efficient one.
-
^^ I like your RC rudder system idea.
My biggest problem with the current concept of rudder is having to stand at a fixed place. We tried a 14' Bullet w/ steering and we just don't have enough big days to stand where the rudder is.
The tapping idea of yours is awesome. As is the autopilot. I presume you also eliminate wiggle (slack in cables).