Post by: surf4food on May 11, 2016, 06:32:02 PM
I still can't get over the pure illogic that the unlimited class has all but disappeared. It just makes no sense that the fastest class (in most conditions) draws such little interest. I get the storage and transport issue (I'm an apartment dweller and can only do inflatables) but that's doesn't seem to be a problem for OC1s, surfskis, kayaks etc. so it shouldn't be for boards over 15 feet.
Post by: SUPflorida on May 12, 2016, 08:37:22 AM
1) SUP in inherently a slow sport... If you want to go fast SUP is not the vehicle.
2) Great downwind conditions with a groomed swell/high winds/warm water/easy entry & exit are probably about as rare as great surf breaks.
3) With all do respect to the fun of down winding...A empty Dixie cup can blow down wind without an issue. I hear the 17 bullet is a bear upwind.
4) Most people are not retired/trustfund babies/independently wealthy/sponsored riders(God bless them, I would love to be in their ranks). We go where we can, when we can. Flat or chop, wind or calm, current or no current. More often than not at least half the time on the water is going up wind and/or up current...sometimes both at the same time.
5) Time is a precious commodity that is stretched between family/Job/ and other priorities. Anything that adds a extra hassle factor in loading/unloading/ storage/moving around on land without damage is going to be naturally avoided. Add significant wind, and taking off/putting on a 17' 35 lb+ board on a car/truck is a two person operation.
6) The majority of athletic people, or people in general, that are going to gleem a noticeable advantage is small. The average male is around 190...female 145...those who are serious athletes are probably ligter in relation to their height. While I am all for the 200+ guy getting a board that better suits them, for the under 175 lb club it might be (at best) a zero sum game for everyday paddling.
Right now I'm doing a 100 hr in 100 days paddle challenge. Having the ability to just slide my 14' in the back of my long bed truck makes for a spur of the moment paddle doable on a tight schedule. It reminds me of how true the statement: "The easier it is to use, the more you tend to use it; the more hassle it is to use, the less you use it."
We all have toys of every description sitting and collecting dust...we were real excited about them at first...But somewhere along the line it became more trouble than it was worth to use them.
If you own a unlimited, and don't live in Hawaii, what percentage of you paddle time do you actually spend on your unlimited compared to your other boards?
With all that said...If you have the time/money/conditions/need/space by all means go for it and enjoy...
Post by: PDLSFR on May 12, 2016, 10:21:32 AM
If you own a unlimited, and don't live in Hawaii, what percentage of you paddle time do you actually spend on your unlimited compared to your other boards?
I agree with SUPflorida that unlimited boards are great if you have the capacity to use it often, we have a few guys here in Southern NE that have unlimited boards and other than the occasional race you barely see them out (and even some of the local races are now eliminating a class for boards over 14'). We also don't have that many opportunities for true downwinders here, so that almost takes a ton of the fun out of the equation. But if you have the space, money, and use for one....go for it.
Post by: atlanticsup on May 12, 2016, 12:01:49 PM
I think when one heads for 10mile + downwinding, then unlimited are in a class of their own.
For me its not a storage issue, or transport, but because they are such expensive boards vs the 14ft, I tend to baby it (it needs to have 2x the life of my 14ft), and still only use it 30% of the time for downwinders. So during the week, I prefer leaving the 14ft on the roof rack.
I certainly hope more manufacturers or local shapers have a go at unlimited but with SIC dominating, and Hawaii the only place unlimited have taken off it may take time
Post by: surf4food on May 12, 2016, 12:08:12 PM
Post by: covesurfer on May 12, 2016, 01:16:58 PM
When I lived in the Gorge, and if I were to do so again in the future, it is unlikely that I would paddle a board bigger than a 14'. The vast majority of competitive paddlers ride 14's there and it's a board class that works very well for the conditions. I'd sure want to keep my OC1, in spite of the inconvenience of transport, handling and storage.
When I lived in the PNW, and long before retirement and standup paddling, I owned an 18 foot sea kayak that I paddled regularly, usually as soon as I got home from work. I had a lot of paddles that ended in the dark, especially in the Fall every year. For me, I think it's less about the inconvenience of a long boat or board and more about what works well and what all your paddle partners are on, both day-to-day and at the races.
Post by: Eagle on May 12, 2016, 01:45:51 PM
Whereas for a 14 you are paddling what most others are on - so your speeds are much closer. The 14s are simply much easier to handle and paddle in changing conditions. Much more maneuverable and versatile. What we do with our 4 boards is purposefully rotate using them - so that we can appreciate the differences and nuances. In rough conditions especially - that really helps with improving our balance. Using a flat water board for DW really changes up your perspective - and forces you to get out of your comfort zone.
So would like to have UL boards - but just do not see using them enough to justify keeping them. They are however near impossible to beat in their respective power zones.
Post by: SUPflorida on May 12, 2016, 03:43:33 PM
When I lived in the PNW, and long before retirement and standup paddling, I owned an 18 foot sea kayak that I paddled regularly, usually as soon as I got home from work. I had a lot of paddles that ended in the dark, especially in the Fall every year. For me, I think it's less about the inconvenience of a long boat or board and more about what works well and what all your paddle partners are on, both day-to-day and at the races.
Covesurfer ....I did the same every afternoon for years with my 18' surfski. I was single at the time and self employed...and only lived two blocks from my launch site.
Since I make my boards, an unlimited would not be a big deal cost wise. It just seem the larger I go...from 8'-4" to 12'-6" to now 14' I start loosing that "walking on water feeling." When I'm in howling upwind conditions with my 14...and it a fight to keep the board from getting blown off course, it always reminds me how much worse it could be with another 3 or 4' of board to deal with. With close period cross chop there is plenty to deal with without adding a rudder into the mix.
You hear how great a 17' board is for downwind but are they a viable option for day to day multi condition use? I can only speak for myself, but if a board can only go down wind its essentially it not going to function in my real world conditions as I'm going upwind at least half the time I'm on the water.
If I was Pono's size I would build one in a New York minute, but at 160-165 I probably fall right in the sweet spot of the 14.
Post by: Area 10 on May 12, 2016, 05:24:16 PM
This puzzles me, because it hasn't been my experience at all. What strength of wind do you think that a rudder allows you to paddle at 90 degrees without having to only paddle on one side?
Also, the big drawback of ULs with rudders in many parts of the world is weed and other debris. If your rudder gets broken then you really are in a pickle: not "safe" at all.
Travis's article is no doubt co-ordinated time-wise with the availability of his DC UL boards in many markets in the world.
But I'd be very pleased to her from anyone who has one of these NSP DC 17-10s. They seem to be very good value compared with eg. the SICs. But what is the construction like? How much do they weigh? The weights seem to be a closely guarded secret, which doesn't seem like a good sign.
But maybe I'm too cynical. The NSP 17-10 boards look a lovely shape for sure. I'd be interested to know how they go in flat water.
Post by: surf4food on May 12, 2016, 05:51:38 PM
Post by: PonoBill on May 12, 2016, 06:05:34 PM
I never hear anyone who races surfskis or OC's explaining how difficult it is to manage and store their boat, and yet they are substantially bigger, more fragile, more difficult to launch and retrieve. My point is simply that these responses reflect the status quo, not some logical or experiential set of reasons why longer boards aren't desirable.
In the short period swell of the Gorge, with the wind directly at your back, a 14' board works fine. But the reason 14 feet is the standard for the Gorge is NOT because they are the best board for the conditions. It's because of the race classes. The fact that we have strict race classes sets the standard that everyone accepts. Some people wanted to take everything a step further, make the boards shorter and limit the width. Talk about a buzz-kill. We don't know what the best length is for various aspects of the sport, it's been mandated. With the single exception of open ocean downwind, where unlimiteds rule and the natural standard has become 16 to 18 feet.
If the ideal board for you was 15' X 24" then you will never know that. If you were crazy enough to have the perfect board for you built custom, you couldn't race it. It's an odd thing to have happen in such a young sport, but it is what it is. Like it or lump it. Travis is right, these boards are fun. For me, 14's are a waste of time. I've had a dozen or so, still have four or five. They hang on the wall. No interest. I'll get rid of them this year even if I just find kids to give them to.
I don't know about unlimited being safer. I do know that if the wind line is a mile out and it's shoving towards Tahiti, that I'd rather have a rudder than not. Most rudder boards today have a pin so you can lock the rudder if the mechanism breaks. The folks who know what they are doing are just as safe taking an outside line on a fixed fin board on an offshore day--we don't lose any of them. But the folks with rudders have more fun, because they can still play with the swells while the fixed fin people have to grind away and always turn into the
Post by: surf4food on May 12, 2016, 06:34:56 PM
I never hear anyone who races surfskis or OC's explaining how difficult it is to manage and store their boat, and yet they are substantially bigger, more fragile, more difficult to launch and retrieve.
Yep. Exactly.
Post by: Area 10 on May 12, 2016, 06:44:42 PM
I ask because with my 17, the rudder does pretty much diddly squat for quartering wind and waves. There's not much a little 9" x 5" bit of rudder is going to do against the leverage acting upon a 17ft board in choppy seas. But then I see from a lot of people's videos that their idea of 30 knots is not the same as mine, and the effect of 30 knots on a body of water 100ft+ deep is very different to that upon a body of water that is less than 20ft deep. So maybe if I were in Hawaii a rudder would allow me to run at 90 degrees to the wind just fine. ????
Post by: SUPflorida on May 12, 2016, 07:20:51 PM
Hey...it was my day off, had time to make up on my challenge so I did an upwind grinder. Went as far as I could (5 miles) until the wind picked up to the point I started losing ground while paddling flat out. As a sailor I always head up wind first because no one wants to do the "walk of shame". Definitely glad I did that day.
Pono, I get your point about the arbitrary line drawn in the sand for these two established lengths. But somewhere along the bell curve there is a body weight that is going to be optimized for a 14...who that is I don't know...obviously you have come to the conclusion its definetly not you🤔
Post by: Eagle on May 12, 2016, 07:22:09 PM
Paddling at 90 degrees in just 15 kts of breeze is very difficult with the Bullet 17.4. You have the rudder on full and paddle only on one side. It is not the most comfortable because you are forced to a certain standing position dealing with waves hitting you broadside. At about 45 degrees DW you are ok quartering.
Post by: zachhandler on May 12, 2016, 07:44:55 PM
Okay so are OCs and surfskis better for upwind than ULs? If so, due to lower center of gravity?
Upwind always sucks compared to downwind, but way way less so in a ski. less hull drag and way less wind resistance. There is a spot I do out and backs on in the ski when it is stormy. If the wind is blowing 30mph I am still holding 5 mph or more going out into the wind and waves. The other thing that is nice about skis in the wind is that it is a trivial task to hold any angle to the wind you choose, and never requires paddling more on one side than the other. In fact you don't even think about steering. You just go where you want to without even realizing what your feet are doing on the pedals. I have never paddled an OC in strong conditions so I don't know how that would compare.
Post by: covesurfer on May 12, 2016, 08:03:24 PM
Ok, I'll ask it again: at what wind strength can a 17-18ft board with a rudder run at 90 degrees to the wind direction, by using the rudder?
On days when the wind is straight east, we have about a 3/4 mile paddle, straight south, at 90 degrees to the wind, across Kahului Harbor. It is not deep but it's a harbor so there is no fetch and the wavelets are small and choppy. The rudder allows me to paddle on both sides of the board while making my way across the harbor and I am also able to steer a pretty precise line of my choosing. It is a combination of paddling and rudder use that gets you going. I'd guess the wind is typically 25 with micro-burst type gusts to about 35 or even 40. Especially when a large ship is in port. The wind hits the ship, and accelerates around it, resulting in nightmare gusts. There have been days where the paddle across the harbor is very, very difficult, even on a rudder board. The guys that paddle fixed fins manage it but sometimes get blown downwind more. They are a hardy bunch.
On a 16 or 17+ foot board the rudder is damn nice to have. On a 14, it's not nearly as important as you have a lot less board profile exposed to cross wind and the boards are easier to steer with your paddle and with your feet. I will mention that I relied on the rudder a lot more on my 17-4 Bullet when I first got the board. Now that I've ridden it for a year, I find that I can surf it well from the tail and that it is actually faster when you get most of the front of the board up and out of the water. But, I wouldn't want to be without the rudder either, on a big 17+ footer. On a 14, I truly am comfortable without a rudder at all. But, on a challenging day, you'd better be paying plenty of attention.
I used to store my OC 1 on the living room wall in our tiny condo that we first lived in on Maui. The difficulty of moving it in and out was nothing compared to convincing my wife to put up with it. When you are addicted to the water and the toys you need to enjoy it, you do what you have to. ;D
As for paddling my OC1 upwind, what zachhandler says I also find to be true. I can manage about 5 mph until the chop gets to a point where it starts really slowing the boat. But, if you 'tack' back and forth into the wind, you can still manage to make some decent headway. As soon as you're at an angle where the ama is on the windward side of the boat, you are going to get wind and waves bouncing it and trying to flip you. When you're a newbie, those kinds of conditions are very difficult and anxiety provoking. As you develop good bracing and better boat balance, you learn to get through those conditions quite efficiently. Still, the ama, while it's usually an asset, can create drag and provide a leveraged huli (capsize) mechanism under certain circumstances.
Post by: Eagle on May 12, 2016, 09:08:05 PM
Post by: PonoBill on May 12, 2016, 10:37:46 PM
Post by: Eagle on May 12, 2016, 11:00:43 PM
We paddle out maybe half a mile quartering the wind. It is pretty much broadside to the swells - so we do need our foot on the 17.4 steering all the time to edge into the wind and waves. If our toes are off the steering we instantly veer DW.
So depending on your situation - you may or may not need to paddle at 90 degrees to the wind.
Post by: covesurfer on May 12, 2016, 11:32:05 PM
While the rudder is useful to go across the wind, it is also as PB points out, a tool to catch glides and steer into the energy of the swells. When you're cooking along really well, you can be back on the tail steering the board with your paddle and your feet. The rudder is an aide, it's not a requirement. When you get used to using it effectively, it is something you can grow to love. Rudders are also extremely useful on channel crossings when you're on a big assed downwind board.
Last point is that there is a big design difference between SIC downwind boards and other unlimiteds that may have another primary purpose, like flatwater or even upwind speed. Horses for courses. A Bullet is not designed as an upwind or flatwater board. The 14's that are available nowadays may be arbitrarily (somewhat anyway) 14' in length, but they are designed to do a number of things well (draft, flatwater speed, upwind, etc) and be fast while they're doing them.
Post by: SUPflorida on May 13, 2016, 03:51:19 AM
Last point is that there is a big design difference between SIC downwind boards and other unlimiteds that may have another primary purpose, like flatwater or even upwind speed. Horses for courses. A Bullet is not designed as an upwind or flatwater board. The 14's that are available nowadays may be arbitrarily (somewhat anyway) 14' in length, but they are designed to do a number of things well (draft, flatwater speed, upwind, etc) and be fast while they're doing them.
This begs the question why is there not a 16'-18' Sic FX? Or Starboard Allstar? Or Nash Maliko? If bigger is better why are these latest shapes not being generated in longer lengths? Is this the reason it's stalled at the starting line?
Have they tried any customs those lengths? Hard to believe someone has not approached SIC and requested a custom 17' FX with steering...Bill what are you waiting for? 😉Did they try and the result did not giving a big enough performance bump to make it worth while?
The standard in boat design is to not increase/decrease the length by more than 10% before a complete revisit of the design. So, like most things, it's not as simple as it sounds....
Post by: Area 10 on May 13, 2016, 04:10:02 AM
An All Star in that length would be awesome too. I think that around 15-16ft is about as long as most people can go before they need a rudder, and start to pilot a board rather than surf it.
I think this would resurrect the UL class. The limiting factor for all currently available production ULs is that they are one-trick ponies. But SUPers these days mostly want their boards to be able to empower them to do lots of different SUP activities. Multi-use ULs would be very popular I think.
Post by: DavidJohn on May 13, 2016, 05:38:56 AM
Post by: burchas on May 13, 2016, 06:45:31 AM
And as for storage limitations, we live in a great times...
I am an apartment dweller as well but that doesn't mean I have to be limited to
an inflatable. with all their advantages the experience is not coming close to
an artfully shaped board in my experience.
So while on the subject of SIC, you have options. You want a hard board
for your city life that you don't want to store in some remote boat house?
Have a 2 piece board why don't you. Mark will build it for you.
If this become a hit, maybe they'll make it production so more could afford it.
I had this as a proof of concept in mind and it turned out to be the best
idea ever. Not only that I now have the experience of a really advanced board
shape, it also saved me 10 minutes on my time to water compared to my inflatable.
Based on the experience that I have with this board I can easily see my self
applying the same concept on a Standamaran & end-up with an unlimited
all around board that I can hang on my apartment wall and have it on water
in 20 minutes flat.
Post by: TallDude on May 13, 2016, 07:14:59 AM
Post by: PonoBill on May 13, 2016, 09:32:42 AM
But when people get on exactly the right board for them it can be pretty stunning. Devin Blish has a custom 15' Bullet with steering. Probably close to ideal for her. Try and catch her. It's not just a matter of speed, it's a matter of ideal for control in downwind conditions with big complex bumps. She's always in control of her board, and it's always gliding, always powered up. Kathy Shipman has a custom 17 splinter of a Bullet. Same thing. Kathy is a little bigger and stronger than Devin so the board suits her.
Tallman--A 14' outrigger would be a slug everywhere but in the surf. The asymmetrical ama drag on the hull would require constant steering.
Post by: TallDude on May 13, 2016, 10:36:44 AM
Of coarse. But for all those newbies who have never paddled a real OC-1, they wouldn't know the difference. And probably wouldn't care as long as everyone else was buying them.
Tallman--A 14' outrigger would be a slug everywhere but in the surf. The asymmetrical ama drag on the hull would require constant steering.
Post by: pdxmike on May 13, 2016, 12:29:40 PM
Based on the experience that I have with this board I can easily see my selfburchas--you could probably get any inflatable from your place to out on the water in less than 20 minutes flat. But they do work a lot better if you take time to inflate them.
applying the same concept on a Standamaran & end-up with an unlimited
all around board that I can hang on my apartment wall and have it on water
in 20 minutes flat.
Seriously, I love your 2-piece board, I've always thought the Standamaran was great, and it's exciting to get your reminder that there are other possibilities besides the conventional "inflatable or hardboard" limited choice.
Post by: burchas on May 13, 2016, 02:16:20 PM
burchas--you could probably get any inflatable from your place to out on the water in less than 20 minutes flat. But they do work a lot better if you take time to inflate them.
It does work better inflated, but then you get stuck with the pump on the board wrapped in a dry bag. :D
Seriously, I love your 2-piece board, I've always thought the Standamaran was great, and it's exciting to get your reminder that there are other possibilities besides the conventional "inflatable or hardboard" limited choice.
Thx pdxmike, these "other possibilities" materializes only when you hit a wall looking at conventional offering.
I rarely race. Stand-up for me is purely workout and fun combined into one. For me it was
the challenge to find the most convenient solution to gurranty this workout will also be as much
fun as possible to keep me coming back rather than let the board collect dust in some remote
boat house.
I found this "reminder" becoming as this thread is clearly about the fun of the unlimited board that
get tossed aside on the account of hardship of handling.
Post by: hefwiezen16 on May 13, 2016, 05:11:21 PM
READ AND PONDER THIS!!! When it comes down it, paddlesports are all about the strength-weight ratio. I've seen a 150 lb-ers on a 14 decimate a field, and seen the same thing from bigger guys on 14s. In the 1st scenario, it might lead one to believe that one must be small like a distance runner to win. The other would indicate that one must be muscular to win. 200lbs may be considered ideal For UL, but it all comes down to the efficiency of the engine. In a race, or just an outing for that matter ,that lasts several hours, All of that muscle still needs Oxygen, and the lungs Won't increase in size like muscle can. While I'm just 185 lbs, not the designated ideal weight for UL, I entered it in Chattajack, along with 17 others. UL is not dead!!!
The biggest drawback of racing UL is the inability to join a draft train. I've got several photos of me in a race right alongside a train of Canadian Olympians. As per the rules, I'm not allowed in their draft.
Post by: PonoBill on May 13, 2016, 07:00:26 PM
Post by: covesurfer on May 13, 2016, 10:18:31 PM
PB tried to convince me I'd be no faster on a 17-4 Bullet than on an F16 at my size/weight. And yet.....my speeds on downwind runs have steadily climbed on the bigger board. I am pretty sure that if we were talking pure paddling, in flat/choppy conditions, i.e. NOT downwind, the power to weight stuff would ring true.
BTW, Ralf got an OC1. He will soon begin crushing all of us even more.
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 14, 2016, 12:28:06 AM
Interesting article by Travis Grant. http://www.supracer.com/travis-grant-unlimited-stand-up-paddle-boards-are-fun/
I still can't get over the pure illogic that the unlimited class has all but disappeared. It just makes no sense that the fastest class (in most conditions) draws such little interest. I get the storage and transport issue (I'm an apartment dweller and can only do inflatables) but that's doesn't seem to be a problem for OC1s, surfskis, kayaks etc. so it shouldn't be for boards over 15 feet.
Yeah but yakkers and OC1 are paddlers so they don't see the need for 'smaller smaller smaller' like most with a surf background seem to want. Certainly in the UK anyway. Bigger boards are for the less skilled - ha, what BS
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2016, 02:48:01 AM
This is the reason I don't have a van. But if I had a dollar for every time one of my watersports friends has said to me "I'm surprised you don't have a van" (since in their minds all keen water sports people have one), then I'd be almost as rich as PonoBill.
Watersports people in the UK, and elsewhere in N Europe, have vans because the weather is cold and wet and the van provides shelter for changing, and a place to sleep for overnight trips. So it's an important aspect.
Also, land in much of Europe is much more expensive than in places like Australia and the US, because our population density is higher. So there are many mire people who don't have the space to store a UL board. This is why inflatables outsell hard boards 10 to 1 in this market.
The argument that "storing UL boards can't really be a problem because people own OCs and surfskis" does not apply for most of Europe, because firstly people with surfskis etc often store their boats at a clubhouse (whereas I yet have to hear of there being a SUP-only club that has it's own clubhouse), and also there's the fact that hardly anyone uses long paddle craft (except rowers, who again have their own storage facilities). It's just not a sport with significant participation numbers.
If there were good, effective, UL inflatable SUPs there would instantly be a UL class in SUP all round the world. The difference? No transport or storage hassles, cheap, and durable. So those are the reasons why you don't have a UL class at your local races (unless you live in Hawaii): transport and storage, cost, durability, all of which are almost inextricably intertwined.
Perhaps when SUP matures as a sport, clubhouses will spring up at beaches and lakes everywhere, and then the UL class will start to grow. But that will only happen in Europe if it becomes a sport for the rich (like sailing and rowing), so it's swings and roundabouts.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2016, 02:57:45 AM
If you own a unlimited, and don't live in Hawaii, what percentage of you paddle time do you actually spend on your unlimited compared to your other boards?
This is outrageous. The points you mention are, at best, inaccurate.
FAST
Neither is a surfski, because based on what you are saying, if we want to go fast, we should get a power boat.
DW
Unlimited boards aren’t just about downwind. A 17-footer bullet will have more glide on flat water than most 12’6 board. However, speaking of DW, there are literally endless possibilities for DW on an Unlimited board on nearly any body of water from West Virginia to Florida, to Nevada and to Hawaii, without even talking about countries like France, Spain, Italy, the UK, etc… To say that there are few DW possibilities is like saying there isn’t a lot of water on this planet.
HEAVY
This is where you really need to try a UL board. My UL is lighter than any other board made by Starboard, including every single 12’6 board of that brand. Further, I have not tried a single board faster upwind than my 17’6 x 23 UL – even in 30 knots right in the face.
TRUSTFUND
UL boards do not have to be more expansive. Look at surfskis: you can get one that weight less than 25 pounds for about $2500. Stand up paddle boards are well above the 3000 USD without a rudder.
VERSATILE
You cannot even compare how versatile a UL board with a rudder is compared to a 12’6. At least, the UL will almost always be safer, and you are not going to get blown out to see. That’s basically the difference between a surfski and a kayak from 1979 – where the two of them are in the middle of the ocean, and only one makes it back to shore.
LOADING
Loading and unloading a 55-pound kayak takes about 8 round trips to the car and is a lot more difficult than loading and unloading a 35-pound UL board to and from the car.
PADDLER’S WEIGHT
It’s ridiculous. I weight 125 pounds, and I will prove to you any day and any time that my UL board is a clear advantage TO ME in terms of speed, glide, board capacity, and board versatility than my 12’6 or 14-footers ever will be. Add a rudder, and I am totally golden. Speaking of paddlers’ weight… did you know that a 80-pound kid cannot paddle with ease in windy conditions without a rudder?
The misconception that UL boards are only for heavier paddler is wrong. UL boards will benefit both the heavier and lighter paddlers.
FLOORED
This one floored me…
QUOTE START
“If you own a unlimited, and don't live in Hawaii, what percentage of you paddle time do you actually spend on your unlimited compared to your other boards?”
QUOTE END
I do not live in Hawaii.
I have 4 boards (including 1 UL).
The last 18 months have shown that I have been on my UL 8 out of 10 times, and paddled more than 3700 km with it – in all sorts of conditions from dead flat to Island Hopping to touring and to race photo coverages.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2016, 03:05:38 AM
It's often mentioned by UL board advocates that UL boards are "safer", because the rudder helps you to paddle cross wind.
This puzzles me, because it hasn't been my experience at all. What strength of wind do you think that a rudder allows you to paddle at 90 degrees without having to only paddle on one side?
Also, the big drawback of ULs with rudders in many parts of the world is weed and other debris. If your rudder gets broken then you really are in a pickle: not "safe" at all.
Travis's article is no doubt co-ordinated time-wise with the availability of his DC UL boards in many markets in the world.
But I'd be very pleased to her from anyone who has one of these NSP DC 17-10s. They seem to be very good value compared with eg. the SICs. But what is the construction like? How much do they weigh? The weights seem to be a closely guarded secret, which doesn't seem like a good sign.
But maybe I'm too cynical. The NSP 17-10 boards look a lovely shape for sure. I'd be interested to know how they go in flat water.
RUDDER & WIND
I have very successfully paddle an Unlimited board with a rudder in 35+ knots. For the first time in my life on a SUP, I didn’t have to paddle “only on one side”. My personal UL doesn’t do so well with side wind, but that’s only because I lack muscle mass and because it has no rudder.
WEED
There are endless simple solutions to avoid weed on your rudder.
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2016, 03:18:38 AM
Rudders bring safety risks too. They break. And the rudder steering mech is often exactly where you'd want to stand/lie if you were in trouble and having to paddle prone or on your knees in a dicey situation.
In very messy windy sea conditions, UL boards can be simply too much board to control.
I don't see this as an argument against ULs. I love my 17fter. But there ARE disadvantages to very long boards as well as advantages and it doesn't help the argument to deny them. These disadvantages are why people vote with their wallet for fixed fin 14s. So in order for there to be more ULs we need to solve these issues.
Some UL advocates treat people who don't have ULs as if they were little children who haven't seen the light yet. But your arguments would be more effective if you listened more carefully to the points of the "14 brigade" and considered ways of addressing, rather than denying, them.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2016, 03:25:41 AM
^^True that, though there is an absolute power aspect that has to do with board length, or more specifically skin friction. A small person with a high power to weight ratio won't find an 18' board to be the fastest board for them (unless their power to weight ratio is astronomical). A larger person with a somewhat lower P/W ratio generally can make the 18 board go faster. Might still get toasted by the smaller person on a 14, but it's a better board for them in the right conditions.
@PONO:
On the dead of flat water, I am still more than 15% faster on my 2014 17'6x23 than on my 2016 14'x23.
How would you explain that?
Post by: Bean on May 14, 2016, 03:45:18 AM
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2016, 03:46:04 AM
Above, an 18-footer UL board with a rudder. It is made out of plywood, and costs less than 400 euros, so we can’t really sit here and say that UL boards cost more.
This handmade board is equipped with an anti-weed rudder guard, per my surfski. Weed is therefore not a problem.
Last, but not least, the fact that this UL board is an Unlimited board allows the builder to do what ever he pleases. To make it safer, with crazy Brittany winds in mind, a removable dagger was put in place about 3 feet from the standing area. It’s “just” a hole in the hull and a piece of wood that you slide in and/or out. If you have a problem paddling this board with side wind, you pretty much had no business being on ANY CRAFT on the water on that day.
So, if you don’t know why Unlimited boards are safer in Open Ocean, ASK… but saying that a 12’6 board is safer in Open Ocean is completely absurd.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2016, 03:51:01 AM
Photo, what is your maximum speed (at flat calm) on each of the two boards?
AH.... you make a very good point. I may have made a mistake stating that my UL is faster. Please allow me to rectify that by saying:
Without a doubt, my UL is faster on anything more than a 1-mile course - by about 15% !!!
To answer your question:
On a pure sprint, and totally flat water, I can hit a top speed of about 12 kmh on my UL, but about 12.8 on my 14-footer. Granted, it feels a whole lot easier to Sprint and Go on the 14-footer.
Post by: supuk on May 14, 2016, 03:54:02 AM
At the end of the day who cares on the length i know there are time i will have more fun on a 12'6 and time when i will have more fun on a 14 or a unlimited there are positives and negatives about both every time there is no right or wrong just ride what you like to ride and go enjoy.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2016, 04:04:21 AM
Once you KNOW what a rudder can do from experience, it stops being a fantasy about what a rudder cannot do.
The storage and transport aspect is, sorry, but a somewhat ridiculous aspect. I live in an apartment, and have bene for the last two years, right here in France (yeah, that's part of Europe). I don't even own a car, but I believe to have paddle more miles on an UL than anyone else on this planet. Still, people are going to tell us how it's just not possible to store an Unlimited board in a European country.
You must not want to paddle as much as some people.
Post by: burchas on May 14, 2016, 04:51:30 AM
The storage and transport aspect is, sorry, but a somewhat ridiculous aspect. I live in an apartment, and have bene for the last two years, right here in France (yeah, that's part of Europe). I don't even own a car...
With statement like that, clearly France discovered teleportation, No?
Post by: addapost on May 14, 2016, 05:09:48 AM
Also, the primary reason I started looking at SUP 8 years ago after over 10 years of high level sea kayaking, was exactly because I was sick of hauling around a 45+ pound, 18 foot fiberglass tube. SUP was so much simpler.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2016, 05:25:07 AM
The storage and transport aspect is, sorry, but a somewhat ridiculous aspect. I live in an apartment, and have bene for the last two years, right here in France (yeah, that's part of Europe). I don't even own a car...
With statement like that, clearly France discovered teleportation, No?
We all know that there's always a solution.
For my immediate storage and transport problems, the solution is parking my equipment on a neighbor's land. He lives 30 meters from the ocean.
COST: couple of bottles of wine (super cheap in France) and a cake every few months as a thank you.
Post by: burchas on May 14, 2016, 05:49:01 AM
The storage and transport aspect is, sorry, but a somewhat ridiculous aspect. I live in an apartment, and have bene for the last two years, right here in France (yeah, that's part of Europe). I don't even own a car...
With statement like that, clearly France discovered teleportation, No?
We all know that there's always a solution.
For my immediate storage and transport problems, the solution is parking my equipment on a neighbor's land. He lives 30 meters from the ocean.
COST: couple of bottles of wine (super cheap in France) and a cake every few months as a thank you.
Yeah, tried that with my neighbors, they called 911 ;D
I believe there is always a solution as well but saying the storage and transportation problem is
absurd? frequently the solution is absurd. Case in point:
For my immediate storage and transport problems, the solution: cut the board in half
COST: $5000 ouch! (This sh*t is super expensive in the US)
Even if there is always a solution, it doesn't mean it's always executable. Sure, If was living alone,
I would just move closer to the water and be done, but when operating in a family unit.. well I'm sure the are people here that can better explain it.
Post by: surf4food on May 14, 2016, 06:57:10 AM
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2016, 07:01:45 AM
So, if you don’t know why Unlimited boards are safer in Open Ocean, ASK… but saying that a 12’6 board is safer in Open Ocean is completely absurd.
OK, well if that statement is aimed at me, it is not only misrepresenting what I said, but also very blinkered. My point, if you read it properly, was that it is not correct to state that UL ruddered boards are necessarily safer than shorter fixed fin ones. This is not at all the same as saying that shorter boards are safer. To illustrate my point, here is a situation where an UL board is NOT safer than a shorter board, and where a rudder will be just a liability:
(http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t550/Area_10/tribolet_bopc2014-0091_zpskr4wpvu8.jpg) (http://s1313.photobucket.com/user/Area_10/media/tribolet_bopc2014-0091_zpskr4wpvu8.jpg.html)
Here is another situation where UL boards are (a) not faster, (b) not safer, and (c) a rudder will be worse then a fixed fin:
(http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t550/Area_10/bop-bishow-15_zpsbmg2ur9p.jpg) (http://s1313.photobucket.com/user/Area_10/media/bop-bishow-15_zpsbmg2ur9p.jpg.html)
And here is another situation where an UL board is not faster than a shorter board and in fact the UL board might actually be LESS safe:
(http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t550/Area_10/PRG_zpsg7y3ie1l.jpg) (http://s1313.photobucket.com/user/Area_10/media/PRG_zpsg7y3ie1l.jpg.html)
And here are the typical conditions I downwind in (the paddler is Steve West of Mistral, not me). A rudder is not going to help you quarter against wind and waves here, and in fact a big ruddered UL board can be a right handful. Frequently the currents and wave action upon the length of the hull are so strong that the rudder just flips about like a crisp packet in a breeze, and you lose control. You are better off with a fixed fin that can give you some control:
(http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t550/Area_10/Steve%20West%20DWing2_zpst6gnp90t.jpg) (http://s1313.photobucket.com/user/Area_10/media/Steve%20West%20DWing2_zpst6gnp90t.jpg.html)
Put this together with the fact that the most significant race in the entire SUP calendar worldwide is the BOP/PPG, it is easy to see why UL boards are seen as a niche market to many outside Hawaii.
But I suspect I should be saving my breath. You seem to have made up your mind, and are dismissing the opinions and explanations of many people here who have made reasoned attempts to explain why UL boards might indeed be great in certain situations, but that they can be practically impossible for many people in many situations, and therefore it is no use telling people that they are stupid for not having one, which seems to be the message you are trying to get across. Everyone here agrees, I think, that UL boards have their place, and are great for some people in some situations and some applications. But it seems to be only you that refuses to acknowledge that they aren't the answer to everything. Please try to be a little more understanding of the multiplicity of uses and situations that the entire spectrum of SUP paddlers are dealing with.
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2016, 07:09:06 AM
Wow. Some interesting response and things I never considered. I'll admit, I didn't really think about Europe since I don't live there (though I'm aware of it's higher density living situation for most people). Area 10, you mentioned club houses but none ur SUP specific. So why can't board be stored n the same clubhouse long with skis, OCs, skulls etc? I would think in 2016 a lot of these paddle clubs would now be including SUP.Yes, this is a critical issue I think, and it's a good question. I suspect that in time SUPers might indeed integrate with other ocean paddler. But most SUPers don't come from a paddling background (instead, windsurf, kitesurf, surfing, sailing, yoga/fitness, thriathletes etc.) and most other paddle sports regard SUPing as a bit of a novelty joke. There are a few lifesaving clubs where boards could be stored perhaps, but the trouble there is that surfers hate us...
So, as with so many things in life, I guess it just comes down to the way people tend to separate themselves into tribes, and the long time it takes to break down those barriers. And, to a certain extent, the failure of SUP as a sport so far to get itself organised, with national and international governing bodies etc. In Europe, SUP is principally marketed mainly to kitesurfers and windsurfers as a thing to do when there is no wind. It doesn't yet fully have its own identity.
Post by: PonoBill on May 14, 2016, 07:29:36 AM
Photo, what is your maximum speed (at flat calm) on each of the two boards?
AH.... you make a very good point. I may have made a mistake stating that my UL is faster. Please allow me to rectify that by saying:
Without a doubt, my UL is faster on anything more than a 1-mile course - by about 15% !!!
To answer your question:
On a pure sprint, and totally flat water, I can hit a top speed of about 12 kmh on my UL, but about 12.8 on my 14-footer. Granted, it feels a whole lot easier to Sprint and Go on the 14-footer.
I think you answered your own question to some degree. I suspect that your paddle technique changes between these two boards. It's very inefficient to paddle substantially faster than a board is going--the only way you can do so is to increase the amount of slip across the paddle face, which is a lot of wasted energy. There is a proper cadence for every paddler, for every board speed. If you look at the curves of skin friction drag and wave drag, there is a point where wave drag becomes greater than skin friction and starts to increase rapidly. Right around that point is the most efficient place to hold speed. The longer the hull, the higher speed that point occurs.
In a sprint, the smaller hull with lower skin friction will accelerate quickly and the efficiency is not so important. Boards may get pushed past their froude "limit" in a sprint, but even paddlers that aren't as strong can push a smaller board further along the curve. Over longer distances it's hard to hold an inefficient speed.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2016, 07:49:47 AM
A longer board is not necessarily safer, but add a rudder to a longer board and it will be far safer in Open Ocean. I keep saying open ocean paddling for a longer board, and you show us: Rivers, Shore breaks, and/or conditions that misrepresent stand up paddling (and perhaps the entire DW scene in the UK).
Clearly, your 4 images do not represent the majority of SUP users. Heck, most paddler wouldn’t even make it on any one of those images with ANY BOARD. I don’t think recommending a UL, a 12’6, or a 9-footer would help them.
You are taking things to the extreme, while I am aiming at the majority of SUP users who would benefit from using an Unlimited board with a rudder.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2016, 07:58:04 AM
Photo, what is your maximum speed (at flat calm) on each of the two boards?
AH.... you make a very good point. I may have made a mistake stating that my UL is faster. Please allow me to rectify that by saying:
Without a doubt, my UL is faster on anything more than a 1-mile course - by about 15% !!!
To answer your question:
On a pure sprint, and totally flat water, I can hit a top speed of about 12 kmh on my UL, but about 12.8 on my 14-footer. Granted, it feels a whole lot easier to Sprint and Go on the 14-footer.
I think you answered your own question to some degree. I suspect that your paddle technique changes between these two boards. It's very inefficient to paddle substantially faster than a board is going--the only way you can do so is to increase the amount of slip across the paddle face, which is a lot of wasted energy. There is a proper cadence for every paddler, for every board speed. If you look at the curves of skin friction drag and wave drag, there is a point where wave drag becomes greater than skin friction and starts to increase rapidly. Right around that point is the most efficient place to hold speed. The longer the hull, the higher speed that point occurs.
In a sprint, the smaller hull with lower skin friction will accelerate quickly and the efficiency is not so important. Boards may get pushed past their froude "limit" in a sprint, but even paddlers that aren't as strong can push a smaller board further along the curve. Over longer distances it's hard to hold an inefficient speed.
I agree with you in theory, but in practice, I am afraid I do not.
REF.: www.tourfr.com/sup/speed-stats.pdf
Tests conducted with 5 people clearly showed that everyone was faster on the UL board (lighter, heavier, strong and weak paddlers alike).
Personal data (with 1000's of km) has showed me that I am substantially faster on all longer than 1 km distances - using the UL.
So how do you explain that I can paddle without fatigue for 6 hours straight using a UL board, and still average a better speed than 30 minutes on a 12'6 race board ?
Post by: PonoBill on May 14, 2016, 08:39:51 AM
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2016, 08:51:56 AM
… A small person with a high power to weight ratio won't find an 18' board to be the fastest board for them (unless their power to weight ratio is astronomical). A larger person with a somewhat lower P/W ratio generally can make the 18 board go faster. Might still get toasted by the smaller person on a 14, but it's a better board for them in the right conditions.
PONO:
Unless I am mistaking, you are saying that I (being a feather-weight) should be faster on a 14 footer. Why is all my data showing that I am always faster on my Unlimited board?
With all respect, I am trying to understand what you are saying. Could you clarify?
Post by: comeu on May 14, 2016, 05:14:32 PM
" I can paddle without fatigue for 6 hours straight using a UL board, "
Waow! You start feeling fatigue after how many hours?
"and still average a better speed than 30 minutes on a 12'6 race board ?"
X12 longer effort and more speed!
Post by: hefwiezen16 on May 14, 2016, 06:44:17 PM
So, as with so many things in life, I guess it just comes down to the way people tend to separate themselves into tribes, and the long time it takes to break down those barriers. And, to a certain extent, the failure of SUP as a sport so far to get itself organised, with national and international governing bodies etc. In Europe, SUP is principally marketed mainly to kitesurfers and windsurfers as a thing to do when there is no wind. It doesn't yet fully have its own identity.
We who are in the UL crew are simply trying to not be negated for our efforts, and be listed (or not) into the "also-ran" category in the press release, when in fact, we were the first SUP across the finish line. For real, this just happened to me. CONSPIRACY THEORY!!!
Humans as a species will always find a way to hate and separate themselves from one another, be it by race, religion, creed, color or penis length. Some call it bonding, cliques or niches. We are programmed by 100's of thousands of years of evolution to unite and fight. A wise person, currently #10 in the women's world rankings, told me not long ago that we are too small a sport to spread negativity. Her talking point is beyond the scope of this discussion, but reigns true. The decline of UL is driven by many factors, Money is #1, and not just from manufacturers. In my locale, OC1 is being promoted as the next big thing, primarily by a local market-savvy shop. After 20 years of sit- down paddling in all forms, I went to stand up 1/2 dozen years ago or so as a new challenge. I'm not about to go back; except for kayak surfing, that shit ROCKS!!!!
I've been in the thick of MTBer VS hikers VS horses BS for decades. Do what makes YOU happy, join a club and argue online with people you've never met, then post your cat videos.
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2016, 07:18:49 PM
Post by: surf4food on May 14, 2016, 08:54:33 PM
"Penis length"? I've never heard the separation of men and women into different race classes that way, but I guess that is one way. You might get a tough time as a race scrutineer though ;)
Perhaps Cialis could be a major sponsor at the next PPGs.
Post by: PonoBill on May 14, 2016, 10:05:06 PM
Photo, the answer to your question is long, I was trying to answer you simply, but I guess it wasn't clear. Let's try this. First of all, it's obvious that there is some length at which a board is too long for any person. A 100 foot long board would certainly have too much skin friction for even the strongest paddler to approach its hull speed of 13kts. So for every paddler there is some length where skin friction is the limit to speed.
For a non-peircing displacement hull the wave speed of an 18 foot board is about 6kts. For a 14 foot board it's 5kts. That's not a wall, it's the point where the resistance from the bow wave starts to rise exponentially. Any person capable of overcoming the skin resistance of an 18 foot board enough to get it moving above 5kts will go faster on the 18. If they can't overcome that much skin resistance and their speed is well below 5kts then the 14 will take less energy.
There isn't a lot of difference between theory and reality in this basic kind of hydrodynamics. Yes, there's some chaotic stuff that happens with poor designs, and there's small differences in skin friction between different hulls, but it's proportional and linear, and not huge.
As for your tests, there's a myriad of ways that on the water tests with groups of people and boards yield odd results. As carefully as something as apparently controllable as a drug trial is, there are times when the placebo is hard to beat. It might piss you off to hear that your test is not scientific, or controlled in any fashion, or significant in any way--but it's not, it's not, and it's not.
Oh, and A10, I think those first two photos are of Salt Creek BOP. I did that race on a 17' Bullet with a rudder. Got one second and one first place finish--Sprint and distance. Of course the reason is that 1. I'm old and 2. There were only four unlimited boards in the race. In that particular race I changed my entry from surfboard class, where I would have automatically won first place just by finishing--I would have been the only idiot over 60 on a 12'2" surfboard, to unlimited. I did so because the unlimited boards had a tremendous advantage: They started first. I didn't need to paddle through a littered battlefield.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2016, 10:49:46 PM
@photofr
" I can paddle without fatigue for 6 hours straight using a UL board, "
Waow! You start feeling fatigue after how many hours?
"and still average a better speed than 30 minutes on a 12'6 race board ?"
X12 longer effort and more speed!
The harsh reality is that there are different ways of paddling. There are probably a number of ways to describe it, but I always like to portrait it and estimate it like this: 50% effort (tourist mode), 80% effort (efficient mode), and 95-100% effort (racing or serious training mode).
At 50%, the average paddler will average about 4 to 5 kph.
At 80%, the average speed is about 7.8 to 8.8 kph.
At 95-100%, the average speed is about 9.2 kph.
I can paddle at 80% and get into a rhythm that allows me to paddle for a very long time. I wake up the next morning, and even at my old age, I’ll discover zero muscle pain, and absolutely zero shoulder pain. The best part is that on an Unlimited board, I never feel like the board is “stalling” when paddling at 80% effort. I have paddled multiple days for 6 hours.
When I paddle at my 95-100%, I seem to max at in under 2 hours of paddling. I always wake up the next morning feeling intense muscle pain, and absurd shoulder pain.
I can only speak for myself, but I much prefer paddling super long distances at 80% - so perhaps that’s why I can last 6 hours in a race feeling totally like I could eat and go back out again.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2016, 10:53:50 PM
Thanks for the explanation. I told you I understood the “theory” behind it, though you have made it even clearer. In fact, probably one of the best explanations I have seen in a long time.
It reminds me of a book I read that said that at a depth of 218 feet, humains would die while breathing straight air. Turns out that theory wasn't necessarily true.
Please note that there are two tests:
The one with the group of 5 people
My numerous mileage and extensive GPS data
For argument sake, let’s just throw the Group Test out the door – even though, interestingly enough: the woman paddler HATED the Ace GT 17’4 board… even came back saying “this board sucks, doesn’t glide, and feels like a tank” … even though she got her second best time on that board. But like I said, let’s just ignore all that data for a second.
Scientifically speaking, skin resistance is true. In practice (GPS data in hand) please tell me WHY the following happened to me:
My data (personal paddling for 1000s of kilometers) shows that my overall average speed ON LONG DISTANCE flat water paddling is always greater on either the 17’6 x 23 and/or 17’4 x 27 than any of the 12’6 boards I have ever tried?
Note: Long distance as in: anything over 1 km.
Post by: PonoBill on May 14, 2016, 11:13:31 PM
As I said before, you don't gain much from trying to paddle much faster than your board is moving--it's inefficient. But a board being paddled goes through a cycle of speed--it accelerates while you are applying power, and decelerates when you recover. A longer board has a wider range of relatively linear resistance. It translates into a feeling people call glide, but it's really just that the board doesn't poke into the exponential increase in resistance caused by wave drag unless you really go at it hard.
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2016, 11:35:37 PM
On pure flat water they were both surprisingly slow on it, with one in particular being quite a bit slower over a 3 mile circuit than on a 14ft Bark Dominator. He said that he just didn't feel he had the power to get it moving. We tried various different techniques and paddles for him on the UL board to get him to go faster but we just couldn't find any way to get him even moderately fast on it, despite the fact that I am much faster on the UL than on any 14, including the Dom.
Both paddlers are around the 147-158 lb mark.
I guess that UL boards are not for everyone. Speed isn't everything for everyone. Just because you feel happier on a UL doesn't mean everyone does.
I think the "it's not a Boardsport any more" comment is telling. If you have a background in kayaking, canoeing, surfski, OC etc then I think that UL SUPs feel quite natural to you. But if you come from a surf or windsurf background then UL boards feel alien and barge-like. Since most SUPers in Europe come from a windsurf/surf/kitesurf background, this may have contributed to the slow sales of UL boards.
Post by: photofr on May 14, 2016, 11:49:29 PM
Make
Model
Year
What is the weight of that board?
Did it have a rudder?
Regarding the two paddlers who were slower on flat water with that UL, do they have very narrow shoulders? Do they both happen to be very new to the sport of SUP?
The reason I am asking is because "factors" always make a difference. Details make it easier to understand.
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2016, 12:24:15 AM
What UL board did they try out?They tried my Naish Javelin 17ft carbon. I don't know the weight. It's not light but it's no heavier than many 14s.
Make
Model
Year
What is the weight of that board?
Did it have a rudder?
Regarding the two paddlers who were slower on flat water with that UL, do they have very narrow shoulders? Do they both happen to be very new to the sport of SUP?
The reason I am asking is because "factors" always make a difference. Details make it easier to understand.
Yes, we tried it both with the rudder and without.
They are both experienced SUPers. One was the UK champion racer in his age group at the time.
They aren't especially narrow-shouldered, although at their weights they aren't exactly The Rock. But this is a red herring since my UL is narrower than their Bark Dominators.
Some people just can't get big boards going. I'm not sure why. I think it's something to do with a cadence/power ratio. Both of them had trouble keeping the board tracking well, also. Which is odd because it tracks great for me.
I'm still a bit mystified. But it wasn't a minor thing. They absolutely hated the board - I had lent it to them to enable them to go faster for a particular training exercise we were doing but they ended up slower.
It's not just this particular UL either because I've seen the same thing with another UL board (actually, the older one that UKRiversurfers owns now). One guy who tried that was faster on a 12-6 Bark in flat water than on that 16.5ft UL board! I was a lot faster on the UL, and my friend who is bigger than me was about the same on both. Go figure!
Btw, a group of friends and I tried downbreezing on the Naish 17 and Naish 14 of the same year. Same construction, same shaper, same rocker. We were all faster on the 14. Once the wind gets up it's a different matter for some but not others, but in light winds the smaller board is faster for most people. (Actually, once the wind gets only 10 knots or so I'm faster on the 17, but let's not complicate things even further...).
So, although there are some general principles for these things, you don't have to look too hard to find examples that break them. I've seen many other examples (eg. young girls faster with big bladed paddles that most men struggle with, than small ones aimed at women). As my dad used to say: "those who generalise generally lie".
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 15, 2016, 05:04:22 AM
Quote
Perhaps when SUP matures as a sport, clubhouses will spring up at beaches and lakes everywhere, and then the UL class will start to grow. But that will only happen in Europe if it becomes a sport for the rich (like sailing and rowing), so it's swings and roundabouts.
I started sailing at my secondary school for 50p per season :D
Granted the boats were crap! But accessible to anybody.
Our rowing club is also open to anybody, not just the wealthy. A rowing scull is not too much either.
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 15, 2016, 05:07:14 AM
Quote
DW
Unlimited boards aren’t just about downwind. A 17-footer bullet will have more glide on flat water than most 12’6 board. However, speaking of DW, there are literally endless possibilities for DW on an Unlimited board on nearly any body of water from West Virginia to Florida, to Nevada and to Hawaii, without even talking about countries like France, Spain, Italy, the UK, etc… To say that there are few DW possibilities is like saying there isn’t a lot of water on this planet.
My Bullet is the fastest board in my fleet in all condition, flat, downwind, cross chop etc... Purely because of its length.
On the Thames its faster than my k15
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2016, 06:16:17 AM
Yes, I'm faster on my 17ft DW board in pure still flat water than on a K15 too. Except when going with a current, when the K15 is freakishly fast.QuoteDW
Unlimited boards aren’t just about downwind. A 17-footer bullet will have more glide on flat water than most 12’6 board. However, speaking of DW, there are literally endless possibilities for DW on an Unlimited board on nearly any body of water from West Virginia to Florida, to Nevada and to Hawaii, without even talking about countries like France, Spain, Italy, the UK, etc… To say that there are few DW possibilities is like saying there isn’t a lot of water on this planet.
My Bullet is the fastest board in my fleet in all condition, flat, downwind, cross chop etc... Purely because of its length.
On the Thames its faster than my k15
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2016, 09:38:39 AM
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. My point was that it will have taken the patronage of some rich people over a long period of time to get to the stage where the big facilities of sports like sailing and rowing are accessible to paupers like me. SUP will need that too if we are ever to be on a par with eg. rowing in this country. I can't see it happening, though. But that's OK. I'm happy with doing something that is the runt of the paddlesports litter, because it is simply more fun :)QuotePerhaps when SUP matures as a sport, clubhouses will spring up at beaches and lakes everywhere, and then the UL class will start to grow. But that will only happen in Europe if it becomes a sport for the rich (like sailing and rowing), so it's swings and roundabouts.
I started sailing at my secondary school for 50p per season :D
Granted the boats were crap! But accessible to anybody.
Our rowing club is also open to anybody, not just the wealthy. A rowing scull is not too much either.
Post by: photofr on May 15, 2016, 11:48:27 AM
Yeah... your finding humans who do not go faster on a UL on flat water is very strange.
I have put more than 25 people on my two different UL (and they couldn't possibly be more different from one another). My findings (based GPS data) is that, with the exception of a single person (a top French racer) All testers were faster on BOTH boards in the flats. The top French racer was faster on the 23" wide UL on flats, slower on the 27" on flats, but noticeably faster on mega DW using the 27" board.
Like you said: it may just be a mystery as to why your testers didn't have faster times. Interesting though...
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 17, 2016, 03:10:05 AM
Quote
Photofr - I have two experienced male friends who has the exact same reaction to trying my UL board as your female friend. They said it felt like a tanker and they didn't feel in control, and it felt like canoeing to them rather than a board sport. They actually felt unsafe and nervous when the wind got up because they said they felt the board would just go where it wanted rather than where they wanted.
Who????
The 'pro' who said he could hardly stand after a 20 mile sea paddle ::) :o ;D
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 17, 2016, 03:10:54 AM
Post by: photofr on May 18, 2016, 12:51:11 AM
Because you are paddling at the most efficient point--a speed just below the large increase in resistance caused by wave friction. You are probably also taking short strokes, putting most of the effort into the first few inches of pull, and maintaining a relatively high cadence--all factors that make long boards comfortable and efficient close to their hull speed. You don't get the same kind of benefit from a shorter board.
As I said before, you don't gain much from trying to paddle much faster than your board is moving--it's inefficient. But a board being paddled goes through a cycle of speed--it accelerates while you are applying power, and decelerates when you recover. A longer board has a wider range of relatively linear resistance. It translates into a feeling people call glide, but it's really just that the board doesn't poke into the exponential increase in resistance caused by wave drag unless you really go at it hard.
THANKS PONO
It's clear to me that we are on the same page. Somehow, I misunderstood you earlier. My apologies.
Thanks again for the explanation.
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2016, 03:22:30 AM
Err... No. He's not a "pro", and I never said he was, nor would he claim to be - unlike many others... But he'd probably kick your ass in a race nevertheless. But anyone who races very hard for 20 miles could easily find themselves wobbly on their feet. But I guess that since you don't race, you wouldn't know this. It's easy to rack up huge miles just cruising. Anyone can do that.QuotePhotofr - I have two experienced male friends who has the exact same reaction to trying my UL board as your female friend. They said it felt like a tanker and they didn't feel in control, and it felt like canoeing to them rather than a board sport. They actually felt unsafe and nervous when the wind got up because they said they felt the board would just go where it wanted rather than where they wanted.
Who????
The 'pro' who said he could hardly stand after a 20 mile sea paddle ::) :o ;D
The bizarre thing is that some people just don't like big boards. I don't understand it. You clearly don't understand it (especially since you are a heavy guy), but that's the way it is.
Who has rattled your cage, anyway?
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 18, 2016, 07:02:30 AM
Quote
Err... No. He's not a "pro", and I never said he was, nor would he claim to be - unlike many others... But he'd probably kick your ass in a race nevertheless
Most likely... ;D
We'll probably never ever find out as most UK paddlers won't go near my desired locations :D
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 18, 2016, 07:05:08 AM
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2016, 07:41:32 AM
And they certainly wouldnt ever, ever organise anything thats not via Facebook which I am banished from :DWell, you shouldn't be such a naughty boy, should you? ;)
It's a bad time to be off FB because people are just starting to organise trips and training now that summer is (almost) here and the race season gets underway. You could do a few of the non-serious local events/races that don't have board class distinctions on your Bullet 17-4. Or maybe the Icon downwind race - looks like there will be a few people doing that on ULs.
I suspect that we are starting to see the re-emergence of the UL class, fuelled by the sharp increase of interest in downwinding.
Post by: paddlestandingup on May 18, 2016, 09:48:06 AM
I agree with the people that said the rudder doesn't do jack upwind or cross wind so I would not say that it's safer than a fixed fin. In organized conditions going downwind, it does help some though I locked the rudder for a bit last year and had no trouble turning the board while going downwind. For me, I don't see any advantage of the 14 except for being easier to handle on and off the car and while walking to and from the water.
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 18, 2016, 09:54:21 AM
And they certainly wouldnt ever, ever organise anything thats not via Facebook which I am banished from :DWell, you shouldn't be such a naughty boy, should you? ;)
It's a bad time to be off FB because people are just starting to organise trips and training now that summer is (almost) here and the race season gets underway. You could do a few of the non-serious local events/races that don't have board class distinctions on your Bullet 17-4. Or maybe the Icon downwind race - looks like there will be a few people doing that on ULs.
I suspect that we are starting to see the re-emergence of the UL class, fuelled by the sharp increase of interest in downwinding.
Well - Its Facebook who are naughty actually and I do have a legal case against them as they are in breach of their own T&C but its truly not worth it.
I am a brand on my own who runs his water sports career without FB and did for decades before FB.
I was actually only a member for about 1 year so its no big loss.
It does sadden me slightly that the UK SUP industry is entirely dependent on it and I truly believe it would collapse as a watersport in the UK if Facebook suddenly moves the goal posts or something similar.
FB is probably part of the reason folk are so narrow minded as to only go for a certain size board.
Part of the heard mentality.....?
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 18, 2016, 10:00:02 AM
Trust me - it will definitely end in tears sooner or later for some big UK players.
Post by: PonoBill on May 18, 2016, 10:03:59 AM
First thing to learn is that you steer the tail, not the nose. The turning force comes mostly from the rail, not the rudder. I bet that creates a few "aha!" moments in novice rudder users. The fastest guys in Maui are trimming off at least two inches from their rudders. They don't need all that turning authority and the shorter rudder drags less.
Guys like Dave Kalama do upwind Maliko runs with a rudder board. He goes exactly where he wants to go in 20+ kt upwind and crosswind, and if you watch Dave paddle upwind or downwind you see his foot nearly always on the rudder--he goes through all kinds of gyrations to keep his rudder foot in contact. The limitation isn't the board or the rudder. It's in the nut behind the wheel.
Oh, and the volume of the Bullet 17 doesn't add stability. A cylinder would have a lot more volume and a lot less stability. The length and rocker are responsible for some secondary stability--like a monkey standing in a hammock, the weight of the monkey has to be lifted to tip the hammock. The righting force of a rail is the force necessary to submerge the rail, which is a function of both width, and the length for that width. Added width gets an extra benefit from leverage, but every increment of length increases the righting force.
Post by: paddlestandingup on May 18, 2016, 10:22:39 AM
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 18, 2016, 10:32:24 AM
It's definitely not intuitive if you're used to foot steering with a surf background but my friend Siri Schubert who is a time served rudder paddler picked it up within seconds she says.
Without doubt I'd rather have a rudder if a had a fully loaded board and had leeway to consider on a bumpy sea with a cross wind!
Post by: photofr on May 18, 2016, 10:33:47 AM
Post by: paddlestandingup on May 18, 2016, 10:41:21 AM
Post by: PaddleSpot on May 20, 2016, 10:10:58 AM
How can people imagine that a rudder can work alone cross wind ? It's just impossible. Upwind or cross wind, a rudder needs a pivot, hence a centerboard. No one would think of sailing a dinghy, a laser for instance, crosswind without a minimum of daggerboard down. It would drift like a piece of soap, and you would have to hold the rudder at 30-45 degres to (have the illusion to) sail straight.
I'm pretty sure it's the same with SUPs, and specialy with ULs. Rudders alone are great downwind, but totally misused cross wind. Basically, cross wind, a centerboard + a standard rear fin will be much more efficient than a rudder. Rudders should be used to turn, centerboard to go straight.
I've been adding daggerboards on my 14' for the last 3 years, and there'll definitely be one on my next flatwater UL (shape starting tomorrow ;D !!! )
It will be something like that : I'll probably add a rudder later, but I'm not even sure. The rudder is still an option, not the daggerboard.
Post by: TallDude on May 20, 2016, 11:07:00 AM
That's a sexy looking board. I've been down this unlimited design road before. Two things to consider is the windage at the nose, and the full round bottom is actually slower on a sup. The rounded board causes a lot of foot over-steering. The foil created as it heals over (which it will constantly) causes the board turn hard right or left. You basically spend your energy trying to keep the board from constantly zig zagging. Craig Richmond told me that over the years of the unlimited development they found a full length double concave, a slight bevel at the rail then straight up rail is the fastest design he's done to date. Thomas Maximus unlimited has that bottom. Brian Szymanski's Lahui Kai race boards have the same bottoms. Mine is flat with a slight round at the rail the whole length. My next UL will have a double concave full length.
You can take some height (or depth) out of the first 2 of the nose. That's more for a 14' or shorter board. Maintain recovery volume starting about 3' feet back. This will help in quartered wind.
Food for thought.
Post by: Area 10 on May 20, 2016, 12:48:51 PM
You guys with ruddered ULs should try them with fixed fins and with the decks freed of the rudder mechs so you can move around more freely. You might be surprised at how much you enjoy it. Most people with ULs have never tried a fixed fin UL, but they have huge advantages in some situations.
Post by: PonoBill on May 20, 2016, 08:09:09 PM
I've had a board with the kind of rails and bottom you've designed. The infamous Penetrator 572 designed by Stuey Campbell. Ridiculously fast board with Jeremy Riggs on it, and fast with me for about ten strokes, before I'd have to balance check on both sides. That centerboard might do you some good. If you have alien balance like jeremy you might do well, otherwise its tough to be fast when your laying in the water.
I played around with center rudders with a fixed rear fin for a while, SIC did linked front and rear rudders. We both found them to be more trouble than they were worth. In some conditions they were responsive and positive, but in downwinders they were inconsistent and twitchy. It's also how I learned that rudders don't work the way I thought they did on SUP boards, especially for downwind. In most cases the center of force on a SUP board is aft of the center of drag. The rudder rarely turns the tail around the nose of the board, it pushes the tail to one side or the other. The board may sideslip as a result, or it may move far enough for the rail and the rudder drag to change the general board direction.
A10 I love an uncluttered deck, that's why I started working on the radio rudder, but 99 percent of the moving I do on a big rudder board is back of the tiller. It is nice to move forward on dead flat or microbump conditions, but for everything else, the rudder is more important. Is to me anyway.
Post by: Area 10 on May 20, 2016, 11:54:49 PM
The natural place for a rudder worldwide seems to me to be for UL flatwater rather than downwinding. A ruddered 18-21ft flat water board in millpond conditions would be absolutely superb, especially if a weed-free rudder design was used. I can see that being a transformational experience for many people. You'd never want to go back to a fixie 14.
Post by: PonoBill on May 21, 2016, 06:52:55 AM
All the enormously talented and experienced people doing high wind downwinders and channel crossings, who generally jump off the fixed fin race boards they usually use to do these events, are simply being fooled into thinking a rudder works better.
When I have a rudder board made I get a fin box added right behind the rudder post. It gives a place for the trailing edge of the fin to shove into without breaking the board in the event that something hits the fin, and gives the option of using a fixed fin. I've tried it. Didn't like it. I can do a downwinder without a rudder an unlimited board, but I can't do any of the steering and countersteering moves that make it feasible to ride the face of big swells with a big board without rounding up.
Post by: Area 10 on May 21, 2016, 07:39:18 AM
Already, relative newcomers on fixed fin 14s are getting close to the people on UL boards even in locations that favour a rudder. If you gave them 3 or 4ft extra length in their board they'd probably be right up there with the ruddered people even without a rudder.
But I guess some things you have to try for yourself. A clean deck fixie can be better than a ruddered board in my experience in downbreezing conditions, short period confused waters, and typical European shore-breaks. You are welcome to come over and try the same board with and without a rudder in the conditions I paddle in, and then I think you'll agree. No doubt however if I came to Maui, is pretty soon be asking for a rudder. Not many people have actually tried the same UL board both with and without a rudder back to back. But I have, and the results surprised me. But then again, I have learnt DWing mainly not usual a rudder, whereas it has probably been an integral part of it for you from the start. So our skill sets probably differ. But most of the new recruits worldwide will be like me, rather than someone who developed their DW skills on the Maliko run.
Ok, so I hope that's a bit clearer. Horses for courses. Downwinding round here involves getting right forward (standing on top of where the rudder steering mech would be), paddling like hell to catch the bump (which are often not easy to get onto because of tidal effects and refractions etc), then once you've got the bump, getting back pronto for the drop to avoid pearling, foot steering from the back, often using paddle also, and then jumping right forward again and doing the whole thing all over again. At no time are you in a position to use the rudder to direct your board. The bumps are too steep, and too close together. There are just two positions - fully forward trimmed for flat water speed (in effect), and then with back foot over the rudder/fin. But as I say, I think very often people just have to come and see for themselves. At the moment the underlying and unchallenged (except by me, it seems) belief amongst DW paddlers is that anyone who does not use a rudder does so because they are incapable rather than that there might be situations where a rudder is more a burden than a blessing.
But I am willing to accept that I might be wrong. And it would be great to get the same courtesy from others. It will be interesting to see how this develops. I suspect that the reason that the new SIC UL production boards come with both fixie and rudder fittings is because Mark Raaphort's team riders have already told him something along the lines of what I'm saying here. Or, maybe because he is from Holland, he already knows what conditions are like in Europe. It's a great idea IMO.
Post by: Pierre on May 21, 2016, 01:29:51 PM
Ok, that makes no sense at all, but please, do as you like.I can add a fin ( in fact a daggerboard) about 1 foot AHEAD of the rudder, it works great in very choppy conditions, gives extra stability. so rudder still works behind. if a fin is behind the rudder, rudder becomes useless, and board may be very straight to handle if you remove rudder, Am I right?
All the enormously talented and experienced people doing high wind downwinders and channel crossings, who generally jump off the fixed fin race boards they usually use to do these events, are simply being fooled into thinking a rudder works better.
When I have a rudder board made I get a fin box added right behind the rudder post. It gives a place for the trailing edge of the fin to shove into without breaking the board in the event that something hits the fin, and gives the option of using a fixed fin. I've tried it. Didn't like it. I can do a downwinder without a rudder an unlimited board, but I can't do any of the steering and countersteering moves that make it feasible to ride the face of big swells with a big board without rounding up.
another daggerboard case is placed ahead of center, this is for head-sidewind conditions. that's awesome. In fact on my 18' I can put this board or 1 ft ahead rudder or 1 ft ahead my feet...
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 22, 2016, 12:45:17 AM
Paddlespot,
That's a sexy looking board. I've been down this unlimited design road before. Two things to consider is the windage at the nose, and the full round bottom is actually slower on a sup. The rounded board causes a lot of foot over-steering. The foil created as it heals over (which it will constantly) causes the board turn hard right or left. You basically spend your energy trying to keep the board from constantly zig zagging. Craig Richmond told me that over the years of the unlimited development they found a full length double concave, a slight bevel at the rail then straight up rail is the fastest design he's done to date. Thomas Maximus unlimited has that bottom. Brian Szymanski's Lahui Kai race boards have the same bottoms. Mine is flat with a slight round at the rail the whole length. My next UL will have a double concave full length.
You can take some height (or depth) out of the first 2 of the nose. That's more for a 14' or shorter board. Maintain recovery volume starting about 3' feet back. This will help in quartered wind.
Food for thought.
And Craig Richmond is one geeza I would listen to above any other board maker ;)
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 22, 2016, 12:46:35 AM
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 22, 2016, 12:58:52 AM
How does a bump know if it's in the Pacific or in the Atlantic???
Please explain why the period will be different in one part of the world compared to another?
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 22, 2016, 01:04:21 AM
Post by: coldsup on May 22, 2016, 01:08:42 AM
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 22, 2016, 01:20:28 AM
I get an urge to post as soon as I see a point being made that needs correcting ;D
For eg - folk keep saying 'refraction' when what they really mean is 'Clapotis'
Reason - because any other serious paddle sports folk reading this will just see us as a bunch of amateurs!
As water sports is my carreer - last thing I want is future customers seeing me as a
Surfer trying to paddle ::) 8)
Post by: Area 10 on May 22, 2016, 02:03:21 AM
Since the SUP community contains people from many different Watersports backgrounds, our terminology is a mix of them, and is continually evolving. For instance there was an extended debate about what to call the item that Larry Allison call a "ventral fin". This term actually doesn't make sense because all fins on SUPs are ventral. He agreed with the objections and for a while called it an Anterior Ventral Fin. But the phrase is now truncated back to ventral fin and that's fine because although the term is technically a bit dumb, we all know what we mean so that's fine.
Another case in point was the change in the early days of SUP downwinding from calling the things that we ride "runners" to "bumps". Initially the former phrase was used more often, but latterly we dropped the term entirely in factor of "bumps". Many other terms could have been used but that is the one that stuck due again to the influence of a particular sub-section if the SUP paddling community.
It is interesting to hear why UKRiverSurfers posts lots of shorter posts rather than one longer one. I had always assumed it was because he wanted to inflate his zone "status" number (overall number of posts). But maybe laziness makes more sense. The trouble is that if someone posts several in a series closely following each other it has the effect of pushing out recent posts from other people from the "recent posts" list at the bottom of many people's pages, which they use to check for what to read. So other people's contributions might go missed. This seems a bit selfish, so I try to put all my own thoughts in one post even though it is harder, and some people will not read long posts. Whatever, again, each community tends to have it's own rituals, procedures, and standards so usually people choose to go along with them rather than do something socially different. It's a bit like the use of language I guess.
Jargon is a difficult issue. Sometimes people use it just to show off rather than to illuminate. So a person has to be careful about deploying it.
Personally, it certainly doesn't bother me if someone thinks I'm a "surfer trying to paddle", just as it wouldn't if they thought I was a "kayaker trying to paddle". Both would be variously accurate descriptions, as would "dad trying to paddle", which is how my kids describe me :)
Post by: hefwiezen16 on May 22, 2016, 04:32:40 AM
And as for round hulls being slower on SUPs; that depends on who's paddling it. My 18'6 Savage River uses the same hull as their marathon canoes, full displacement, and it tracks just fine with a single fixed fin, and I'm able to steer it with weight shifts. Though my only head-head speed tests have been in races where larger, stronger paddlers than me were unable to keep up. I dare say it has unrivaled speed potential in calm water to mild chop. That being said, I've also been passed when I blew up after going out too fast. It has a "Ventral" fin box, installed as per Larry Allison's instructions. It allows more strokes per side, yes, but is mostly unnecessary.
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 22, 2016, 04:57:19 AM
I'd have at least two! 😎
I'm well over the post count status thingy A10 but I see what you mean about the recent posts thing getting clogged up.
Clapotis is the term used for waves that bounce back and get confused with the incoming swells making the sea state particularly nasty. It's the term 'refraction' that most folk seem use to describe the other.
Posted edited btw 👍🏼
Post by: Area 10 on May 22, 2016, 05:17:44 AM
Post by: PonoBill on May 22, 2016, 07:56:20 AM
And as for round hulls being slower on SUPs; that depends on who's paddling it.
Absolutely. Most people can't manage the constant roll and catch that minimal initial stability delivers.
I understand that languages of science and medicine read and sound the way they do because the need to be precise (and it's always pleasant to exclude the unwashed). I've never heard the term 'clapotis', but that isn't surprising since I have no background in boatbuilding or paddling. Any expertise I have is very narrow, generated by becoming interested in something and studying it intently. The usual limitation of the amatuer. No scope.
I struggle to find words to describe the phenomena I see or infer, but I don't think I'l be adopting clapotis anytime soon. It sounds like something you might develop if you frequently contracted gonorrhea.And clapotis looks to be fairly specific, meaning a standing wave generated by reflection, and not the general backwash or reflected wave energy from a steep beach or a wall. I'm sure the meaning has been generalized, but that makes it potentially confusing to someone who actually knows what clapotis is--which only includes me in the last few minutes.
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 22, 2016, 08:37:39 AM
The Jurasic Coast is know for it between K Bay and Lulworth Cove, a result of steep cliffs plunging directly into the sea. It can make even the hardiest folk sea sick :(
http://www.b3c.org.uk/trips/Lulworth%20Trip%20Report.pdf
Post by: Area 10 on May 22, 2016, 10:30:47 AM
And yes, the S Coast of the UK has a lot of different phenomena. The tidal gate round Selsey Bill leads to some really strange things happening at locations nearby, such as the current nearly always going W even when the tide is going out (i.e. heading E). Just weird. But it makes the swell really stand up for downwinding and your speeds at the water surface seem much faster than the GPS is telling you. So you get a longer run for a given transport shuffle than you would otherwise. So these strange phenomena can have their upsides sometimes :)
Post by: Pierre on May 22, 2016, 11:50:06 AM
Paddlespot,Theory of less speed on a rounded shape may certainly not be verified in flat water. Oversteering can be solved in other ways than a double concave... Even a rounded shape is for sure not designed for heavy downwind condition, why surfskis have such?
That's a sexy looking board. I've been down this unlimited design road before. Two things to consider is the windage at the nose, and the full round bottom is actually slower on a sup. The rounded board causes a lot of foot over-steering. The foil created as it heals over (which it will constantly) causes the board turn hard right or left. You basically spend your energy trying to keep the board from constantly zig zagging. Craig Richmond told me that over the years of the unlimited development they found a full length double concave, a slight bevel at the rail then straight up rail is the fastest design he's done to date. Thomas Maximus unlimited has that bottom. Brian Szymanski's Lahui Kai race boards have the same bottoms. Mine is flat with a slight round at the rail the whole length. My next UL will have a double concave full length.
You can take some height (or depth) out of the first 2 of the nose. That's more for a 14' or shorter board. Maintain recovery volume starting about 3' feet back. This will help in quartered wind.
Food for thought.
And whatever findings of Craig Richmond, Travis Grant board has a different design and works awesome... My opinion is that a rounded bottom may work best in condition which are best fit for it, but theoretically it should work the best. Oversteering is not an excuse.
Post by: Pierre on May 22, 2016, 12:11:08 PM
Please use 'Clapotis' not refraction as the correct term 8)"Clapotis" is originally a french word which means irregular choppy water, generally noisy of low amplitude. can be current against/across wind or wavelet REFLEXION. the meaning of word can be altered.
Post by: Pierre on May 22, 2016, 12:16:42 PM
Post by: Pierre on May 22, 2016, 12:19:39 PM
Yes. Round hulls are of course faster, theoretically, but you need to add width to compensate for the added roll otherwise the paddler can't cope with it. This added width tends to negate the theoretical speed advantage, and make the boards hard to paddle in chop, and also affects things like beach starts, surfability and ease of certain forms of drafting. So although round hulls are theoretically faster, for most paddlers and most situations, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, and often make them slower for the applications that people actually use them for. But if we all paddled on rowing lakes in separate lanes then all our boards would look like Olympic canoes or rowing craft. People demand versatility and ease of use from their SUPs.To complete my previous post, Area 10 your reply is wise... But using a round hull with the knowledge of the "Pros" and"Con" about it can be pleasant. Especially when paddling them in situations they fit for. And there are, including in slight downinding condition without too much "clapotis".
Post by: Area 10 on May 22, 2016, 01:29:42 PM
Post by: PaddleSpot on May 22, 2016, 01:41:18 PM
That's a lovely design if you're going to put a motor or sail on it. or maybe paddle it in flatwater. But downwind boards get pushed from behind. If you're going to try to start from first principles (like "a rudder needs a pivot"--since when???)
Basically, since around 250 BC :-)
“Give me a place to stand and with a lever I will move the whole world”
Archimedes
If you're going to try to start from first principles then you have to get them right.
I promise you I'm trying my best, with my old engineer's degree, specialized in mechanics and naval architecture :-)
I know that "downwind boards get pushed from behind", so what :) ?
To make anything rotate, you need an axis and a torque. The rudder provides the torque, but without axis it can't work properly, just like anyone confirms here. Add a small centerboard and the rudder will make the board turn around it.
The rudder rarely turns the tail around the nose of the board, it pushes the tail to one side or the other. The board may sideslip as a result
Precisely, because SUP flat hulls lack the pivot of the centerboard or the support of a deep hull :)
Surfskis work well because they have a deep, v-shaped hull, so they don't sideslip. Just like old Hobie cats can sail upwind without centerboard.
But everyone knows that SUPs have a problem cross wind, that OC1s, K1's, or any of a myriad craft with decades or hundreds of years of development don't have because they have deep and narrow hulls. SUPs are shaped like big surfboards;that's why they just don't work cross wind. Every flat boat in the world need a centerboard cross wind, except windsurfs cause they use their rails instead. SUPs seem to leave in a world where the escape the laws of physics.
This topic is called "The fun of unlimited boards", it's not dedicated to DW, neither is my future UL. The aim is more to be able to easily paddle 60 miles in a day. But I'm pretty sure it will be perfect in DW conditions. Please have a quick look at how my current "Pierre de la Monneraye design/home made" round 14' goes downwind. Just like a surfski. Not as fast, but as smooth... It was my first test, I have many things to improve, but this round hull is a real downwinder
http://www.supjournal.com/article,breve,video-un-downwind-sur-l-etang-de-berre,4034
Post by: Chilly on May 22, 2016, 04:06:33 PM
Post by: PonoBill on May 22, 2016, 05:38:19 PM
This topic is called "The fun of unlimited boards", it's not dedicated to DW, neither is my future UL.
Somehow I missed that this board is intended for flatwater--sloppy reading on my part. As Rosanne Rosannadana would say: "Never Mind."
But any hull has a center of drag: flat, round or v, and it can and will be turned by a rudder around the center of drag. the question is how much drag is there, where the center is located, and is it enough to provide effective turning for the condtions we subject the hull to. I realize this is the pivot you are speaking of, but to my reading you were inferring the pivot doesn't exist without a centerboard, which is obviously not true.
I raised the issue of centerboards in downwind rudder boards because I've tried them and didn't like the result. When the board is turned across the wave the centerboard drag overcomes the rudder and the board rounds up. Furthermore, sideslipping is an important part of positioning the board the way you want to.
I do have a ventral fin on my 18' Speedboard, which is a flatwater board, and I like it for certain conditions. The board has a fixed fin, and again, in any condition where there is wind and swell coming from behind, the board becomes more difficult to handle. In races like The Challenge On the Charles" the ventral fin was more trouble than it was worth, since the wind often came up during the race.Nice for upwind, okay for crosswind, lousy for bouy turns. The speedboard nose is an elongated deep, rounded V, much like a surfski. It doesn't need the fin, but it helps a bit.
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 23, 2016, 01:20:01 AM
Yep. Well I guess this nicely illustrates the varied uses of terminology. As long as we all know what we mean (which is usually discoverable through the context) then I guess it's all good. It seems that on the zone most people just say "confused seas" or "messy waters" or similar - which doesn't tell you anything about the source of the phenomenon but describes the effect upon the paddler quite well, and can be understood by anyone.
And yes, the S Coast of the UK has a lot of different phenomena. The tidal gate round Selsey Bill leads to some really strange things happening at locations nearby, such as the current nearly always going W even when the tide is going out (i.e. heading E). Just weird. But it makes the swell really stand up for downwinding and your speeds at the water surface seem much faster than the GPS is telling you. So you get a longer run for a given transport shuffle than you would otherwise. So these strange phenomena can have their upsides sometimes :)
Yeah but a lot of that strangeness around Selsey and other prominent headlands/points on the south coast is all in the admiralty charts, tide diamonds and tidal streams atlas's..
The worst place is Portland Bill over falls.
As most SUPers don't venture too far along isolated coasts they won't see all the different phenomena... As I said before - every part of the south coast is like a Child's play ground compared to the North Coast.
And the North Coast is my next desired trip! I'll be first, on one of my UL SUPs! Nobody else wants part of it! ::)
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 23, 2016, 01:24:27 AM
If you’re in side chop and need to correct your course and turn into the wind, wouldn’t that center board fight you? Compared to a rudder that can easily turn the board with the paddle stroke. The paddle being the pivot point.
The centreboard would actually aid directional stability - therefore making your strokes more effective and better distance per stroke. The centreboard will take the sideways energy and turn it into forward momentum, similar to a sail on a dinghy :)
Post by: SUPflorida on May 23, 2016, 06:42:39 AM
Apply what Larry has already experimented with in regard to depth and area...this could be the next step in the natural progression of things. If properly designed so as to easily deploy and retract, it would lessen the issue with weeds as well.
Post by: PonoBill on May 23, 2016, 07:35:52 AM
The swithchblade ventral fin was part of that development. It was controlled from the deck with a paddle blade or toe. I'm not sure why mark set it aside, but I decided my results were not worth the effort of developing. I liked some aspects of front steering, but found that it was ineffective for the kind of paddling I care about. I also don't bother much with ventral fins. In pure flatwater in a straight line they would make some paddlers faster, but in a typical flatwater race in a course with bouy turns they don't so much. There's an old picture of me somewhere on Facebook during one of the Willamette SUP cup races where I look like I'm giving birth trying to get around a bouy, and getting aced by a guy on the inside. Ventral fin in the Speedboard. The chop and bouncy water from boat traffic made a tail pivot very dicy--at least for my balance.
Post by: SUPflorida on May 23, 2016, 09:39:16 AM
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 23, 2016, 11:03:35 AM
I think we agree. There have been successful SUPs with rounded(ish) hulls like the K15 and some of the NSP DC boards. And even one of my own 12-6s has a (fairly mildly) rounded hull (C4 Switchblade). You are right that you can learn to use and admire the handling characteristics - to a certain extent, and they can be fast, for sure. But as I say, to list people they feel a bit tippy for their width and a lot of people are obsessed with going as narrow as they can, so trying to sell boards that roll a bit is not always going to be easy. What sells is not necessarily what is the most effective.
K15's got a 'shallow arch' with 'tumblehome' ;D
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 23, 2016, 11:05:49 AM
Like a rowing singe skull.
Post by: Area 10 on May 23, 2016, 11:32:29 AM
Anyone thinking that they could usefully SUP any hull that even remotely approached a true semi-circle is out of their mind.
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 23, 2016, 11:46:06 AM
Look at a single skull... It has exactly the same radious all through its profile and will have absolutely zero initial stability, and absolutely zero secondary stability too. It will just capsize without the ours aiding balance. It will get some stability when it gets moving though.. It is the lack of primary and secondary stability that makes it so fast..
A shallow arch will have a different radius at different points which add either primary or secondary stability....Tumblehome for example. The word even describes the action :)
Post by: photofr on May 23, 2016, 12:44:04 PM
"Rudders do not do jack for you when paddling upwind, or side wind".
It was said with such certainty, that, NEXT, we'll hear the same person say:
Surfskis do not really exist and even if they did, they never would be able to travel upwind or side wind with a rudder, because rudders do not do jack for a surfski.
I know... I know... you can't see me... but statements based on omitting what we already have that already works are just OUTRAGEOUS.
Post by: Area 10 on May 23, 2016, 01:03:16 PM
Post by: PonoBill on May 23, 2016, 01:04:07 PM
Ponobill what you describe as a switch blade is exactly what I had in mind. If it could be instantly retractable to volley between having the extra tracking in a beam wind/paddling into a strong head wind on the quarter....and being able to go to conventional rear fixed fin only...where would be the liability? Did you or Mark try it in conjunction with a fixed rear fin? or only with a rear rudder? Curious if you guys skipped right over that possibility in pursuit of a fully steerable concept....
I dont know what mark did with the thing. Hes almost as easily distracted as i am. I suspect though that he came to a similat conclusion as i did. That for rough water and given our primary interest in downwind that ventral fins and daggerboards arent worth the effort.
Post by: UKRiverSurfers on May 23, 2016, 01:23:02 PM
Oh fer chrissakes -we've done this one to death. Let's move on.
I was just gonna post..... Lets rename this thread "The fun of Unlimited Threads"
::) ;D ;D
Post by: PaddleSpot on May 23, 2016, 11:11:16 PM
Ponobill what you describe as a switch blade is exactly what I had in mind. If it could be instantly retractable to volley between having the extra tracking in a beam wind/paddling into a strong head wind on the quarter....and being able to go to conventional rear fixed fin only...where would be the liability?
Something like that ?
https://vimeo.com/89657512
Post by: PaddleSpot on May 23, 2016, 11:36:59 PM
at 1.30 I can actually steer the board using the paddle IN THE AIR, at about 30° left or right.
At 1:50 I stand up, the board is tracking perfectly. Of course you don't chase bumps with the daggerboard, but you can choose a direction and keep it effortless.
The board is a regular f-one 14'x29", fixed fin, no rudder, I just added this little daggerboard.
https://vimeo.com/146574470
Post by: PaddleSpot on May 23, 2016, 11:39:13 PM
Post by: PaddleSpot on June 04, 2016, 10:57:56 PM
Post by: TallDude on June 05, 2016, 12:30:48 PM
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on June 05, 2016, 07:15:23 PM
Post by: PaddleSpot on June 06, 2016, 01:14:02 PM
This looks familiar. Here's mine 18' UL when I was cooking the hot coat.
Do you have other pictures, TallDude ? How does it look now ?
Post by: TallDude on June 06, 2016, 02:13:36 PM
Post by: PaddleSpot on June 08, 2016, 01:42:53 PM
Post by: TallDude on June 08, 2016, 03:22:24 PM
Post by: supuk on June 09, 2016, 11:33:02 AM
Post by: PaddleSpot on June 09, 2016, 12:27:46 PM
very nice did you manage to lay the deck up in one bit without relief cuts using the twill?
Yes, no cuts, no problem at all. One layer of 5 oz carbon, then immediately one layer of 3 oz fiberglass, then a peelply.
Post by: supuk on June 09, 2016, 12:43:36 PM
Post by: PaddleSpot on June 09, 2016, 12:55:02 PM
nice i take it you used twill glass also? would love to see some more pics of the standing area when the peel ply is all of
The glass is not twill, it is Hexcel 2116 : http://www.hexcel.com/resources/datasheets/fabrics-data-sheets/2116.pdf
But this is not the standing area. The standing area will be :
- 5 oz carbon
- Hexcel 2116 fiberglass
- 0.6 mm oak wood
- 6 oz fiberglass
- Hexcel 2116
Post by: SUPflorida on June 09, 2016, 01:55:38 PM
To all the unlimited guys out there...any of you have something other than a pin tail on your current unlimited board (or ones you have owned in the past)? If so, does it negate some of the benefit of going longer?
I noticed the wake of a bunch of different shaped boards in Robert's downwind race video. The SIC 17's were putting out a much more turbulent wake, even as narrow as that snipped off tail is ...compared to a Fanatic pin tail that was in the mix. That said from strictly appearance sake I like the tail blocked off a bit rather comming to a point...all thing being equal.
So what's the buzz? Never saw a surf ski with anything other than a pin tail...how about an unlimited SUP with a rounded pin tail? Any of those out there? Remember, looking for all water board performance. Spending as much (or more) time going up wind and cross wind as downwind.
What's been your first hand experience? Appreciate your insight.
How do you turn one of those beasts from down wind to into the wind without a rudder in 15+ mph? If you move back to sink the tail...all that nose in the air is going to send you heading straight down wind... What's the secret?
Post by: Pierre on June 09, 2016, 02:21:37 PM
https://photofr.smugmug.com/FindYourPhotos-1/2016-Event-Photos/2016-Jun-09-Tour-de-Groix
Post by: Area 10 on June 09, 2016, 02:44:46 PM
When I was on my UL fixed fin board yesterday, I was struck by how much easier it was to turn into the wind than my 14.
Soon, shapers will start building UL specifically designed to a fixed fin rather than a rudder. This will mean some changes from current designs I think. Most current designs with rudders presume very little or no weight movement forward of the handle. But moving forward is essential on a UL in certain conditions and can be HUGELY advantageous.
Post by: supuk on June 09, 2016, 03:45:47 PM
Supuk...you home yet? been holding off on my decision of going 14' or 16' on a new upcoming "all-water" board to hear if the 16 was everthing you thought it would be...or if you were going back to your tried and true 14 length? Quit messing around and get that thing glassed and on the water😉 You would normally pop three of these baby's out in this amount of time😎
yes got home Tuesday sorry for taking so long on this one unfortunately its going to be a little longer too as i am now going over to France next week to surf in the euro championships and i have a 7'4 to Finnish before then so not much time to work on the unlimited but it is next to get glassed when I'm back but i think being so long i am going to try and make a rocker jig for it to make sure it stays were i want.
Post by: SUPflorida on June 09, 2016, 04:25:57 PM
SUPFlorida - you turn fixed fin UL board by moving well forward on the board to minimise the fin, and use rail steer. It works well - as you pass the centre point of the board going forward you make the length of the rail behind the pivot point (ie. roughly where you are standing) longer than the rail in front of you. This means that as long as you minimise the anchoring effect of the fin, side winds and chop will tend to act more on the tail than the nose, and will help you turn into the wind.
When I was on my UL fixed fin board yesterday, I was struck by how much easier it was to turn into the wind than my 14.
Soon, shapers will start building UL specifically designed to a fixed fin rather than a rudder. This will mean some changes from current designs I think. Most current designs with rudders presume very little or no weight movement forward of the handle. But moving forward is essential on a UL in certain conditions and can be HUGELY advantageous.
Thanks Area10 ...makes perfect sense when you described it that way...exactly what we do to get an overturned cat headed into the wind to basically "water start" it with minimum effort...walk to the bow on the lower hull when it's knocked down on its side...mast turns 90 degrees to the wind, wind gets underneath the sail and pops it right back up on its feet (so to speak). Bill Roberts the designer of Supercat & ARC catamarans would right his ARC 27 like that and it had a 15' beam.
That's good to know, as my 14' gives me enough of a fit in over 20 mph as it is...I was anticipating 16' plus being pushed downwind with little recourse.
Strike another excuse off the list to avoid building a 16'.
Post by: PaddleSpot on June 10, 2016, 06:50:26 AM
nice i take it you used twill glass also? would love to see some more pics of the standing area when the peel ply is all of
Standing area :
Post by: PonoBill on June 11, 2016, 06:00:10 AM
Post by: SUPflorida on June 11, 2016, 02:25:03 PM
It will be interesting to see if the route Starboard [Allstar] and Infinity [Black Fish] is taking (with deep concaves all the way out the back of a wide tail) proves as effective as more conventional drag reduction designs. Will it give the pur-ported dynamically lift to the tail? Will it reduce drag while still giving the stability of the wide tail? It may reduce drag when going full out at "Connor pace"...what about for the those that can't keep that pace up for an entire race? Does that deep concave actually create drag when not pushed above a certain minimum speed?
Since I asked the question I found a couple pictures of two of Danny Ching's unlimited boards. One had a rounded/rounded pin and the other had a square tail. In agreement with your statement about the wide tail and moving forward to incourage clean release...it hard to say for sure...but the board with the square tail appeared to have its wide point farther forward than the one with the rounded pin.
Post by: PonoBill on June 11, 2016, 02:43:46 PM
(http://www.theretirementtrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/speedborad.jpg)
I did this back in June of 2014, haven't gotten around to getting the bugs out of it. One bug is that it won't turn. Another is that it leaks.
Post by: SUPflorida on June 11, 2016, 03:45:01 PM
Here's a twofer, the tail of the Speedboard 18 and the deep duct I cut into it. The idea is to make the board finless, maintaining direction by stalling the water in the deep slot. I didn't deface a good board, this is the one that UPS freight broke in half.
(http://www.theretirementtrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/speedborad.jpg)
I did this back in June of 2014, haven't gotten around to getting the bugs out of it. One bug is that it won't turn. Another is that it leaks.
Thanks for the look at your speed board and the mods. Like your sense of adventure. Can't wait to hear how it goes when you get all the bugs worked out.
Remember you talking about this quite awhile ago. Nice to get a look at the photo.
You were way ahead of the curve.
The difference between your concave and the Allstar that jumps out to me right away is your concave appears much deeper and gets progressively wider as it moves aft.
The Allstar appears to transitions gradually from convex to flat, to shallow concave, to deeper concave...but never it seems much more than 5/8" to 3/4"of an inch or so deep...even at the tail. It also follows more parallel to the rail line, rather from a point forward to wide point aft in a straight line.
I have not seen a All Star up close and personal. It would be interesting to plot the area of the concave from its most forward onset, to the tail( at 6" increments along the length). It looks like the width/depth of the concave in the back half of the board may be close to constant. That is...towards the midpoint (along the length) the center concave is wider and shallower...at the tail its narrow and deeper. Not sure if it stays constant or if the area is constricted to accelerate the water out the tail...or goes in the opposite direction and gets progressively bigger.
Post by: PonoBill on June 11, 2016, 09:19:56 PM
Post by: PaddleSpot on June 26, 2016, 10:49:38 PM
First test yesterday. This board just flies !
https://vimeo.com/172324359
Post by: PonoBill on June 27, 2016, 12:12:43 AM
Post by: PaddleSpot on June 27, 2016, 12:15:18 AM
Once you get it in a bump it won't stop. Even if you run out of water.
Perfect description PonoBill :)
Post by: PaddleSpot on June 27, 2016, 04:16:40 AM
Post by: Pierre on June 27, 2016, 05:58:07 AM
Post by: PaddleSpot on June 27, 2016, 06:30:29 AM
Post by: TallDude on June 27, 2016, 08:12:58 AM
Post by: SUPflorida on June 27, 2016, 08:35:32 AM
Beautiful board. With the rounded bottom you have to do a little more feathering and bracing with the paddle, but the speed is worth it :)
I agree it's a beautiful board...very "classic" in appearance... but as to the "little more feathering and bracing" description... "Exhausting"
is more the word that came to my mind...lol
Post by: PaddleSpot on June 27, 2016, 09:03:08 AM
I need to learn how to use the paddle as a canoe outrigger float, and always have my weight on the right leg...
And I'm pretty sure I can paddle 60 miles per day on flat water with this board, effortless.
Post by: PonoBill on June 27, 2016, 10:24:55 AM
Post by: PaddleSpot on September 25, 2016, 12:48:43 PM
If the small "ventrical" fin is helpful in some conditions and a liability in others.. a minimal size retractable dagger or centerboard could be the answer. But much smaller than that show in paddlespots computer rendering (where the daggerboard appears to have twice the area of the fin).
Definitely, SUPflorida. The board is ready, tests will begin this week :)
https://vimeo.com/181938609
Post by: SUPflorida on September 25, 2016, 04:30:18 PM
How far are you intending your dagger board to protrude below the bottom in its final version? .... and what kind of area will be presented?
Thanks for sharing the video.👍🏻
Post by: PaddleSpot on September 28, 2016, 05:18:08 AM
I'm waiting for the wind to try different lengths, from 8cm to 20cm, the chord being 6.5 cm (and the area between 50 and 130 cm2 / 8 and 20 in2)
(on the right, river and downwind fins)
Post by: SUPflorida on September 28, 2016, 04:15:35 PM
Post by: photofr on September 29, 2016, 01:27:44 PM
Post by: robon on September 29, 2016, 01:39:59 PM
Speaking of unlimited boards, how does the Ace GT go upwind?
Post by: photofr on September 29, 2016, 02:22:03 PM
PROS
Downwind: picking up any odd bump any time anywhere.
Upwind: up there with some of the best I have ever tried as far as upwind speed.
Tons of room for photo equipment.
Tons of extra stability.
It was even faster on flatwater than my flat water specific 12'6 board.
CONS
Heavy: it was about 14 kilos and felt like 22.
Lacking a rudder (or at least one PaddleSpot magic blades.
A board like that, in my opinion, should be 8 to 10 kilos, including a rudder system - and at that weight, I would have kept it and cherished it.
My 17'6x23 is still the fastest board upwind I have ever been on; I just have to make sure that it totally stay upwind. I am putting a rudder on next month.
Post by: PaddleSpot on September 29, 2016, 11:38:02 PM
I love the door in the background: "that's French, and from the South" - with plenty of history.
The last chapter being the bolt I just added. The baby twins are now toddlers, and the tool shed (called "cafoutche" in Marseille) is one of their main targets.
My 17'6x23 is still the fastest board upwind I have ever been on; I just have to make sure that it totally stay upwind. I am putting a rudder on next month.
Forget the rudder to stay upwind, it can't work if you don't have a ventral fin or a daggerboard to keep the bow on track. The easyest would be to add a fcs fin box, like I did on the 14' shark...
Post by: PaddleSpot on September 30, 2016, 01:33:33 AM
Post by: robon on September 30, 2016, 10:08:40 AM
I sold my GT quite a while back, but I can tell you what I liked and didn't like about it:
PROS
Downwind: picking up any odd bump any time anywhere.
Upwind: up there with some of the best I have ever tried as far as upwind speed.
Tons of room for photo equipment.
Tons of extra stability.
It was even faster on flatwater than my flat water specific 12'6 board.
CONS
Heavy: it was about 14 kilos and felt like 22.
Lacking a rudder (or at least one PaddleSpot magic blades.
A board like that, in my opinion, should be 8 to 10 kilos, including a rudder system - and at that weight, I would have kept it and cherished it.
My 17'6x23 is still the fastest board upwind I have ever been on; I just have to make sure that it totally stay upwind. I am putting a rudder on next month.
So, did you find the Ace to be a handful in quartering swell and crosswinds then? Any paddlers in the 200 pound+ range have any insight on the Ace unlimited? These boards are rare but a couple have come up for sale used on the coast and i've been contemplating getting one. I have the room now, but might not if I move. It would be interesting if SB did another unlimited with a bit less of a dug out. One used Ace GT I checked out online had tie downs on the inside of the rails, which makes sense for extended tours and expedition paddling. The centre of gravity and overall balance would be better putting your gear inside, rather than completely front loading the nose.
Post by: photofr on September 30, 2016, 10:45:53 AM
Upwind: no problem. It's loud though when it gets rough.
Glide for touring: seriously excels.
Current tie-downs: pretty much useless. I created my own (too simple).
Dug out area: perfect depth. I'd actually extend the dug out area more on the front, for easier access to my camera bag.
There are now two GT in France:
My old one went to a monster of a man. When he paddles the GT, he looks like me on a 12'6.
The other one went to someone I know who is about 90 kilos - but he's selling it (he had someone make him a custom board).
Post by: PaddleSpot on October 17, 2016, 11:41:13 AM
https://vimeo.com/187403489
Post by: TallDude on October 17, 2016, 11:28:14 PM
But wait! I bet you're deep in thought about the next... redesigned unlimited........?
Post by: PaddleSpot on October 24, 2016, 01:27:50 PM
But wait! I bet you're deep in thought about the next... redesigned unlimited........?
Not yet. I didn't open Shape3D for a couple of months. This is the 4th board (1st UL) I make, and I totally love this one. Really fast and polyvalent, from flat conditions to 20 knots downwind.
Maybe I'll try to design variations on the same theme : a narrower, longer and lighter flatwater version, and a more "downwind oriented" one. But I'm expecting stability curves features in a future version of S3d (Thomas, if you read this post ;-) )
Post by: Muskoka SUP on October 30, 2016, 07:05:35 AM