Someone please help me out here because I am suffering from a severe lack of imagination. What the hell is the point of that thing?
C) Bummer no leash.
Thanks, Like I said I can't imagine what it feels like to stand on that thing. To me it LOOKS like it is completely unstable. It LOOKS like it is uncontrollable, un-steerable. It LOOKS like waves/swell would roll right over it and you would go nowhere. Interesting.Someone please help me out here because I am suffering from a severe lack of imagination. What the hell is the point of that thing?
The dream would be near zero drag/resistance/chop contact to stall your glides on a downwinder. Pass from one cup to another without stalling off. All that plus the fun of soaring. I imagine the board could become very narrow and efficient when stabilized by a deep underwater wing.
Thanks, Like I said I can't imagine what it feels like to stand on that thing. To me it LOOKS like it is completely unstable. It LOOKS like it is uncontrollable, un-steerable. It LOOKS like waves/swell would roll right over it and you would go nowhere. Interesting.Someone please help me out here because I am suffering from a severe lack of imagination. What the hell is the point of that thing?
The dream would be near zero drag/resistance/chop contact to stall your glides on a downwinder. Pass from one cup to another without stalling off. All that plus the fun of soaring. I imagine the board could become very narrow and efficient when stabilized by a deep underwater wing.
I'd love to see how much effort, or how big of a bump it took to get flying. Is this something that normal humans could get flying in someplace like the Gorge? Or are we still a few iterations away from that?
Someone please help me out here because I am suffering from a severe lack of imagination. What the hell is the point of that thing?
No. Sex is better.Someone please help me out here because I am suffering from a severe lack of imagination. What the hell is the point of that thing?
My imagination must be different than yours. I saw that video and immediately thought "that looks better than sex"!
C) Bummer no leash.
C) Bummer no leash.
Why would he need a leash? That board isn't going to float away. It's a perfect sea anchor.
I love the idea of soaring above the water.
.
Is this something that normal humans could get flying in someplace like the Gorge?
C) Bummer no leash.
So true. Foils are hard to catch swimming. They drift crazy fast.
I emailed Alex to see if we could get some full images of his foil. He wrote:
The foil is on back order already for two months and growing and as you can imagine, we are holding the pics of the new downwind/wave foil under wraps for a little while longer to try to keep the competition at bay.
Aloha!
AA
C) Bummer no leash.
Why would he need a leash? That board isn't going to float away. It's a perfect sea anchor.
For those who don't "get it;" this is my take… The biggest smile on my face when I'm downwinding are those moments when I'm hitting 8-12mph on a SUP or over 15mph in the outrigger… Speed equals fun. Kai says he's hitting 20mph. Enough said.
I emailed Alex to see if we could get some full images of his foil. He wrote:I'm pretty sure it looks very similar to the foils that I've been seeing on WS boards and kite boards, which are all very similar with various tweaks here and there.
The foil is on back order already for two months and growing and as you can imagine, we are holding the pics of the new downwind/wave foil under wraps for a little while longer to try to keep the competition at bay.
Aloha!
AA
For those who don't "get it;" this is my take… The biggest smile on my face when I'm downwinding are those moments when I'm hitting 8-12mph on a SUP or over 15mph in the outrigger… Speed equals fun. Kai says he's hitting 20mph. Enough said.
Yep, but on the other hand, that means my run is going to over in about 20 minutes. :-\ and that means the logistics of shuttling is going to be higher percentage. :( But I'd be willing to give it a go anyway :)
Especially if you're not wearing a leash like Kai. Good thing he had all those support boats around.C) Bummer no leash.
So true. Foils are hard to catch swimming. They drift crazy fast.
Especially if you're not wearing a leash like Kai. Good thing he had all those support boats around.C) Bummer no leash.
So true. Foils are hard to catch swimming. They drift crazy fast.
Especially if you're not wearing a leash like Kai. Good thing he had all those support boats around.C) Bummer no leash.
So true. Foils are hard to catch swimming. They drift crazy fast.
Falling off at 20mph / 32kph tied to that thing, is not something I'd suggest... This needs some new thinking... Maybe one of those fabric sea anchors that is attached to the board and the anchor is stuffed in a pouch around your waist. When you fall off the anchor gets pulled out the pouch and slows the board down..
Bruno Andre did this at least five years ago!
Bruno Andre did this at least five years ago!
I suspect Naish/Kai will generate more interest than SeaLion/Bruno! Whaddya think??
I emailed Alex to see if we could get some full images of his foil. He wrote:I'm pretty sure it looks very similar to the foils that I've been seeing on WS boards and kite boards, which are all very similar with various tweaks here and there.
The foil is on back order already for two months and growing and as you can imagine, we are holding the pics of the new downwind/wave foil under wraps for a little while longer to try to keep the competition at bay.
Aloha!
AA
I'm surrounded by foils these days, and I've seen maybe 50 different configurations that are all still used, so when I say a "tweaks here or there", it's like which fin do you use or like the best?,,,,,,,, many answers, none of them wrong.I emailed Alex to see if we could get some full images of his foil. He wrote:I'm pretty sure it looks very similar to the foils that I've been seeing on WS boards and kite boards, which are all very similar with various tweaks here and there.
The foil is on back order already for two months and growing and as you can imagine, we are holding the pics of the new downwind/wave foil under wraps for a little while longer to try to keep the competition at bay.
Aloha!
AA
I doubt it. That is a very very old style foil. The wings are extremely different these days. The wing in that images is very unstable compared to the modern wings.
Edit: I might have misunderstood that you thought the image was how the foil would look....
Someone said it is hard to ride foils...I would say I disagree...I was upwind in less than 30 mins on my kite foil. This is way way back tho, and now they are even easier to ride.
Mind blown.Still that one.
I'm surrounded by foils these days, and I've seen maybe 50 different configurations that are all still used, so when I say a "tweaks here or there", it's like which fin do you use or like the best?,,,,,,,, many answers, none of them wrong............Sooooo, whose the guy who thought to put a giant ass fin on the bottom of a board and try and figure out what that could do? I can see how it would have started with sails on boards.....Whoa....and then to go and try without a sail.......both really amazing I think.
I'm a little disappointed the Naish crew didn't resurrect last years Penetrator board for the foil video, seeing that thing hovering along would have been spectacular.
I'm a little disappointed the Naish crew didn't resurrect last years Penetrator board for the foil video, seeing that thing hovering along would have been spectacular.
Apparently they did try, but had a very very hard time getting it up.
How much wind and bump to make the foil work on a real, 14' + board? Why is he using such a short board?
And what if the wind dies, or shifts mid run? Is the whole contraption paddleable to get back to shore, without wind / bump on the back?
The other Go Foil products look to be modular, so I am wondering if this might have multi sport possibilities. That would make it pretty interesting.
I plan to build a foiled DW board this summer, different design in mind. I plan to use the board as the foil fuselage. Retractable front foil, shorter rear foil--a little deeper than a standard fin.
A few questions:
1) Will a Standard Tuttle Box work for these foils?
How much deeper is a full tuttle box?
A few questions:
2) How hard is a full Tuttle box installation?
Where do we get the tuttle boxes?
A few questions:
The advantage Kai has is that wind swell is in fact quite slow (maybe 8 - 14 mph). This means he is actually able to pump up onto the first swell under his own power and take it from there. However, big open ocean swell travels at speeds of 18 - 30 mph. You may never be able to get up to speed enough without a catalyst.
As for origins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tst5dTveO8
Dw what's up with the chinook deep tuttle? I havnt seen one but was going to order some as that's all I can find here.
Dw what's up with the chinook deep tuttle? I havnt seen one but was going to order some as that's all I can find here.
The top surface is molded into the box, so its a fixed depth. Shallow. I've not heard of a deep Tuttle Chinook.
I'm a little disappointed the Naish crew didn't resurrect last years Penetrator board for the foil video, seeing that thing hovering along would have been spectacular.
Apparently they did try, but had a very very hard time getting it up.
I've foiled behind a ski. It only takes 6-7 mph for lift. Even a crap paddler like me can burst to that speed. Pitch control was sensitive when I did it but as some have said, things have improved.
Dw what's up with the chinook deep tuttle? I havnt seen one but was going to order some as that's all I can find here.
The top surface is molded into the box, so its a fixed depth. Shallow. I've not heard of a deep Tuttle Chinook.
hmm this is what i saw so maybe its not deep i will have to call as it does not say, i gets to me it looked like a deep.
http://www.k-bay.co.uk/chinook-parts-and-accessories/board-building-parts/fin-boxes/tuttle-fin-box
Cheers guess I will just have to keep moulding themDw what's up with the chinook deep tuttle? I havnt seen one but was going to order some as that's all I can find here.
The top surface is molded into the box, so its a fixed depth. Shallow. I've not heard of a deep Tuttle Chinook.
hmm this is what i saw so maybe its not deep i will have to call as it does not say, i gets to me it looked like a deep.
http://www.k-bay.co.uk/chinook-parts-and-accessories/board-building-parts/fin-boxes/tuttle-fin-box
It's not deep. I bought that box and found out.
I wonder if a foil would work going down river?! As long as it was a deep section?
I wonder if a foil would work going down river?! As long as it was a deep section?
Someone please help me out here because I am suffering from a severe lack of imagination. What the hell is the point of that thing?
Wow. Foil freaking everything.
sailboats
windsurfers
kites
SUP
You need deep water for all of them.
I have just seen the future. How can we make it work in shallow water with less distance between the bottom of the board and water surface.?
ed
Looks like they released them for sale....$1800 yikes! The. What board do I out it on for a downwind? Lots to think about.
http://gofoil.com
Nobody has talked about paddles yet... but after years of cutting down our paddles to be shorter and shorter, won't we now need a super long one for a foiled dw board?
My windsurf foil comes with 3 front wing sizes. Regular, for use with kites, or windsurfing in higher winds, or lighter sailors. My wife is using this wing for windsurfing.
A light wind wing for guys under 200 lbs wanting to go in 10. An extreme light wind wing for guys over 200 wanting to go in 10. All plug and play if you have a deep Tuttle box in a stock windsurfer.
how high do we need to be above the water perhaps we don't need to be quite so high as the kites and boats he looks fairly happy when he is only 1' above the water.
My windsurf foil comes with 3 front wing sizes. Regular, for use with kites, or windsurfing in higher winds, or lighter sailors. My wife is using this wing for windsurfing.
A light wind wing for guys under 200 lbs wanting to go in 10. An extreme light wind wing for guys over 200 wanting to go in 10. All plug and play if you have a deep Tuttle box in a stock windsurfer.
DW, is there a reason all of the Windsurf boards have the straps positioned way out over the rails (race style) vs more centered (wave style)?
DW, is there a reason all of the Windsurf boards have the straps positioned way out over the rails (race style) vs more centered (wave style)?
Yup, I was just wondering if you could not use strap positions more like boards for kite foiling. Uni right near the nose and super reduced board. Seems like you could waterstart in the straps, pump up and go.
The trick seems to be to get comfortable riding the board low in the water first at fairly low speeds....
Yup, I was just wondering if you could not use strap positions more like boards for kite foiling. Uni right near the nose and super reduced board. Seems like you could waterstart in the straps, pump up and go.
;D that is funny to a guy who foils! You can't water start 80% of the time. BTW, I'm an expert at light wind water starts. I can grab the sail foot and crawl up in the lightest of wind. Years of wave sailing! The sails are just way too small for any given wind speed. Then you've got those knife blades under the board just waiting to slice you if you kick your feet to help lift that under powered sail.
The strap position probably won't work like the kite boards. My wing span is 32". The very light wind foil is ~36" span. You need some outboard leverage for the moments when it lifts the windward rail. But, then you don't want both feet out there for when it looses lift and can't support all your weight out there. You need to be able to move around some and have one foot out, one in, for complete control over the range of speeds and lift it throws at you.
For those talking about other foil devices, here is one missing from the list - the Aqua Skipper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfjDqiyEMOE
A friend of mine had one at a cottage and I tried it a few years ago, but I don't think it really upped my waterman cred.
As for the idea about 2 foils on a board, keep in mind that with a single foil the side to side balance is maintained by steering, just like on a bike. If you can't steer it easily, it will need better stability than some that I've seen. Kite hydrofoils have anhedral so the wing tips are lower and do not reach the surface, but dihedral (wing tips sloped upward more than in middle) will be more stable for a level board.
Peter
Wait, you are uphauling most of the time? What is the downside of using a sail closer to what you would typically be using with traditional gear?
I thought the foils were already set up for foil quivers. Is that not common?
The biggest sail we have is 5.0. If that would get me foiling in 6.0 conditions, that would be a nice way to start and learn the foil. Do I still need one of these ultra wide boards to make that work or are their guys using more normal (wave board) widths for foiling?
DW, what kind of foil are you using on the windsurfer? I see you are using the regular finbox at the back, and am wondering if your setup has a longer distance from the front wing to the mast, or whether your mast rakes forward underwater, or if you have to stand further back. From what I hear if using the main finbox you need to get the wing further forward than the typical setup on a kiteboard.
Thx,
Peter
Well I thought it kinda looked a bit limited in what you can do. Wouldn't you get bored after a while?
Just a little somewhat worthless info.
Out of the three single board disciplines of foiling, windsurfing puts the most strain on the foil. Check out how the mast of the foil bends under the stress of a big sail.
Yeah, that's rad. super tight turns on the foil. Feet on the center-line. The windsurfers look so spread out in comparison. Wonder if that is due to the formula side for early uptake.
Well I thought it kinda looked a bit limited in what you can do. Wouldn't you get bored after a while?
Everyone I know that is into downwinders is pretty excited about the possibilities- endless glides!
Jeff Chang and I went out this weekend to practice foil boarding on his kite foil board towing behind a jet ski and I can tell you that it is not easy AT ALL. It's like learning a whole new sport. We looked like kooks and had some pretty bad wipeouts.
Falling on the foil can be dangerous. My friend Sam Pae hit his head on the foil and had to get stitches when he tried to SUP on a foil board a few years ago. So wearing a helmet and protective gear is a must when learning.
After many tries we were able to "fly" the board for a bit, and come back down without crashing. It's very sensitive to front and back movements. Lean back a bit too much and you shoot up high and get catapulted. The trick seems to be to get comfortable riding the board low in the water first at fairly low speeds, then putting a little pressure on the back foot to fly it just a bit and then lean forward to keep it flying low and level. I can't wait to try it again, and hopefully soon on a downwinder. I would definitely recommend learning how to foil behind a boat or ski first before attempting to use it on a SUP. The foil we were using attaches to two standard fin boxes mounted parallel, not a Tuttle box.
Yes, it is not easy. I kite foil and when learning almost broke my ankles falling over the board/foil. These are key, let you get out and bail without killing yourself.
https://www.northshoreinc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=425&idcategory=203 (https://www.northshoreinc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=425&idcategory=203)
On another note, every movement is exagerated, so when you see Kai pumping the board to get speed and get it onto foil, keep in mind, once you get on foil every motion translates into the wings, and they are super touchy depending on the profile of the foil.
Everyone I know that is into downwinders is pretty excited about the possibilities- endless glides!
Jeff Chang and I went out this weekend to practice foil boarding on his kite foil board towing behind a jet ski and I can tell you that it is not easy AT ALL. It's like learning a whole new sport. We looked like kooks and had some pretty bad wipeouts.
Falling on the foil can be dangerous. My friend Sam Pae hit his head on the foil and had to get stitches when he tried to SUP on a foil board a few years ago. So wearing a helmet and protective gear is a must when learning.
After many tries we were able to "fly" the board for a bit, and come back down without crashing. It's very sensitive to front and back movements. Lean back a bit too much and you shoot up high and get catapulted. The trick seems to be to get comfortable riding the board low in the water first at fairly low speeds, then putting a little pressure on the back foot to fly it just a bit and then lean forward to keep it flying low and level. I can't wait to try it again, and hopefully soon on a downwinder. I would definitely recommend learning how to foil behind a boat or ski first before attempting to use it on a SUP. The foil we were using attaches to two standard fin boxes mounted parallel, not a Tuttle box.
Yes, it is not easy. I kite foil and when learning almost broke my ankles falling over the board/foil. These are key, let you get out and bail without killing yourself.
https://www.northshoreinc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=425&idcategory=203 (https://www.northshoreinc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=425&idcategory=203)
On another note, every movement is exagerated, so when you see Kai pumping the board to get speed and get it onto foil, keep in mind, once you get on foil every motion translates into the wings, and they are super touchy depending on the profile of the foil.
Thanks, those hooks look good, I wonder if they could be used for SUP surfing as well.
But who says it has to be fixed? I can already think of a few ideas that could solve that fairly easily.Foils that pivot like the wings of a F14? Against a spring so they are automatic? Flaps and slats?
F&*king Brilliant!
This is from Kai's FaceBook page:I anticipate that the foils will not be limited to downwinding. Many will follow Kai's lead and take to surfing them.
This hydrofoil has become an essential item in my board bag. After riding the smallest swells, I had as much as if I were surfing perfect waves. 🇯🇵🙇🏻🍣
@naishsup #GoFoil
F&*king Brilliant!
Piros,
It took exactly one femtosecond after seeing your Gorilla Tape come out for Bill to say to Diane, "I need to check something at the shop. Back before dinner."
This is from Kai's FaceBook page:I anticipate that the foils will not be limited to downwinding. Many will follow Kai's lead and take to surfing them.
This hydrofoil has become an essential item in my board bag. After riding the smallest swells, I had as much as if I were surfing perfect waves. 🇯🇵🙇🏻🍣
@naishsup #GoFoil
Any info on who else is presently surfing with the foils ?
Riding with giant knifes under the board will be a great way to keep spots uncrowded... ; )
F&*king Brilliant!
Interesting that Kai introduced the Go Foil but now Starboards is bringing them to market while Naish makes their own version:Who knows what negotiations went on with then all behind the scene.
http://www.naishsurfing.com/2017-malolo-sup-foilboard-hydrofoil/
I strapped a kite foil board to my Sup and shot this yesterday . Amazing result.
I tried down winding in 20 with my foil on my 7'10 windsurf board. No chance in hell of getting up on the foil.
I came away thinking it might take conditions similar to what's required to make a 14 footer sporadically plane on a run. If you don't have good downwinding where you live, the foil doesn't seem like the answer in the same way it turns poor kiting or windsurfing conditions into great ones.
Hope I'm wrong.
I can't recall ever seeing a kiter learn without a helmet. I've seen tons of kiters learning too. They love my windsurf spot for learning to foil. What the heck were you thinking?
BTW, Slingshots newest aluminum foil is so dam heavy it will knock you out cold.
Can someone who has a Naish or Starboard please measure the length of the nose logo and the length of the handle?
I'm looking for a unit of measure so we can get a good idea of how long the boards in the video are and where they put the tuttle.
This very interesting thread has been going for a month, or more, so far. Lots of talk of pros and cons on the design. Foils on surfboards, kites and windsurf, even drones. Evidently, the foiling movement is hot.I'm not sure we even know that downwind SUP foiling is even possible yet, in any meaningful sense, do we? (I agree that watching eg. Kai Lenny with full boat support at one specific and rather special location doesn't really count).
Now, beyond sponsored pros, tweaked equipment and the like, are there any mortals foiling downwind on an sup, that we can see on video? Better yet, against a proven dw board in bona fide dw conditions?
May all be well.
Can someone who has a Naish or Starboard please measure the length of the nose logo and the length of the handle?
I'm looking for a unit of measure so we can get a good idea of how long the boards in the video are and where they put the tuttle.
The length dimension of a 2014 Glide handle is 108 mm, aka 4.25 inches. Sharpen your pencil...
Will it downwind? :) Sure whips a tight turn.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Parrot-Hydrofoil-Newz-Drone-PF723401/206783336?cm_mmc=ola|criteo|27E-27-8-7|22037|https://us.yahoo.com/?p=us
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aK2eS2ciPE
This very interesting thread has been going for a month, or more, so far. Lots of talk of pros and cons on the design. Foils on surfboards, kites and windsurf, even drones. Evidently, the foiling movement is hot.I'm not sure we even know that downwind SUP foiling is even possible yet, in any meaningful sense, do we? (I agree that watching eg. Kai Lenny with full boat support at one specific and rather special location doesn't really count).
Now, beyond sponsored pros, tweaked equipment and the like, are there any mortals foiling downwind on an sup, that we can see on video? Better yet, against a proven dw board in bona fide dw conditions?
May all be well.
I must say that I don't really see the attraction here, with what I've seen so far. The foil surfing for instance just looks like a poor version of normal surfing IMO - the turns are less dynamic, the footwork is largely gone, there's little variety etc. Apart from the novelty, I can't quite see the attraction. I'd still like to have a go, but I'm not sure this would ever replace "normal" SUP, or even be able to compete with it at any level. It kinda looks a bit monotone and restrictive to me, and I can't see a situation where it gives you a clear advantage. Does anyone know of one? By contrast, I can see plenty of situations where you'd be at a disadvantage.
The foil that I ordered back in April has finally arrived and I'm ready to get it flying...in and out fog today making the wind go up and down...instead of our normnal steady thermal seabreeze...
Will it downwind? :) Sure whips a tight turn.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Parrot-Hydrofoil-Newz-Drone-PF723401/206783336?cm_mmc=ola|criteo|27E-27-8-7|22037|https://us.yahoo.com/?p=us
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aK2eS2ciPE
Your ass would be better served on a different project. The existing foils are fine. The French make the best foils. Years of design and R&D. Buy one of those and slap it on a board and go. Learning to foil will be a project in itself.
Will it downwind? :) Sure whips a tight turn.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Parrot-Hydrofoil-Newz-Drone-PF723401/206783336?cm_mmc=ola|criteo|27E-27-8-7|22037|https://us.yahoo.com/?p=us
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aK2eS2ciPE
Similar to the design I'm working on. I'm doing the math before I get serious on shaping. I plan on L-shaped front foils, retractable and adjustable. T tip on the tail, and probably that will pivot as a rudder. I've got an old Starboard Coast Runner that will be the test mule.
The engine will be done next week, car back together a week after. I think what I have in mind is pretty simple to do as a test. It's nothing new, in fact it's how foils are always done when you have a hull instead of a chair. Nobody in the rest of the boat world builds a foil like a chair/tow/windsurf/kite foil. I have six or seven books on hydrofoil design, none of them show a design with a single strut connecting to an underwater fuselage. The only reason the fuselage is attached to a single strut is because it was designed to be attached to a seat. Works fine for a kite with a tiny board, makes less sense for a windsurfer and even less sense for a SUP board.Bill, I'm all for innovation and creative new ways of doing things but I think there are some things to be said for the commonly used single strut foils.
I'm not in that much of a hurry.
First you mentioned that you changed your sails for the ease of uphaul.
Why didn't you bought a bigger windsurfing board?
The ease of uphaul increases exponentially. I have 3 light air boards, Fanatic Ray 130, Ray 145 and *board Formula
Like the main advantage of paddleboard behind the boat is that you can start standing up at zero speed, 1, 2, 5, 8 mph... (the second advantage that you need no more than 10... 12 mph, so you can use a smaller boat, and the wipeouts are gentle for old body)
Voila! You bought a Horue foil! Way to put your money where your mouth is. You'll have a blast. Enjoy.
Just a little different perspective on foils. Controllable foils. Maybe a mix of the Hobie pedal sup board with handlebars w/ grips as controls, controlling a moth type of foil system.
In this video the term 'Twitchy' is used to describe the reactions of a foil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ3rTlvLNvc
As far as learning and wipeouts I'm hoping it's like the progression from water-skiing to wake boarding to wake surfing, and with the relatively slower speed SUP DW foiling will be the safest and easiest to eject from.
I also do all of the above and sup foiling on the style of foil that most use is danger on a hole new level over them. The last time I went out it left me fearing for my life, sometimes you don't get to chose the direction you are ejected and there is a lot of sharp bits to hit very easily speaking from experience, I have crashed in ways I never knew possible, the high side to face plant on the foil is the worst one I have found at the moment hence my efforts to try and develop something a lot more stable and safer to use.
I also do all of the above and sup foiling on the style of foil that most use is danger on a hole new level over them. The last time I went out it left me fearing for my life, sometimes you don't get to chose the direction you are ejected and there is a lot of sharp bits to hit very easily speaking from experience, I have crashed in ways I never knew possible, the high side to face plant on the foil is the worst one I have found at the moment hence my efforts to try and develop something a lot more stable and safer to use.
Wow, sounds like there is real possibility of getting smacked in the face with tip, not so much the shaft, but just the tip? That does sound terrifying. ;)
From the reports I have read it's hard.
Wondering if you are thinking of giving it a rest, or are more determined than ever to figure it out?
Maybe Alex and company have solved these problems already and that's why they filed a patent?
Foiling a down wind SUP should be far less dangerous that kite foiling because 11 ft of board length will tame the beast somewhat. The death crash where a kite foil cartwheels at your head can't happen at 11 feet long.Have you never experienced a 17ft board flying into the air in 35 knots when you wipe out? Get thrown forward by the board because you've pearled it and see what happens. They can take off like a feather blown by a hair-drier. Once the board has reached the end of your leash, it often shoots back towards you in fantastically unpredictable ways. Duck and dive! The fin is the biggest danger. So if you have a foil, that danger is going to be multiplied many times. Wipeouts involved pearling the nose are going to be even more common when foiling, surely? SUP foiling might be huge fun and an enormous buzz, but I can't see anyway that you are going to make it even modestly safe, at least with foils like typically used on kite boards, no matter how long the board is. Holding the paddle while all this happens adds another dimension of trouble too.
The only crashes where the foil could get you, would be flipping sideways. With min practice, I think you'd be able to sense disaster coming and bail safely away from it.
That's the way it works for me windsurfing a foil. The sail prevents it doing a cartwheel. I can sense loosing control and bail safely.
SUP foiling might be huge fun and an enormous buzz, but I can't see anyway that you are going to make it even modestly safe, at least with foils like typically used on kite boards, no matter how long the board is. Holding the paddle while all this happens adds another dimension of trouble too.
Not particularly. Just not drinking the Kool-Aid quite yet.Quote from: Area 10 link=topic=29628.msg322771#msg322771SUP foiling might be huge fun and an enormous buzz, but I can't see anyway that you are going to make it even modestly safe, at least with foils like typically used on kite boards, no matter how long the board is. Holding the paddle while all this happens adds another dimension of trouble too.
Area 10 Seems like you are pretty anti-foil, why so against a product that isn't even out yet?
Why am I pro gofoil?Well, there ya go then: I haven't seen any videos that impress me much yet, and my mind is far from blown by what I have seen, and I DO care how hard and dangerous learning to downwind foil is. So I'm NOT sold. In fact, I when watching those SUP foil vids I start to hear Shania Twain singing gently in my head... "so you're a SUP foiler? That don't impress me much..."
I have seen multiple videos of multiple riders getting glides the likes of which I have never seen before. I suspect it would cost a fortune to fake those videos. I saw a couple rides that blew my mind, and I don't care how hard or dangerous learning to downwind foil is, I'm sold.
That's the great thing about these forums. You get wildly differing viewpoints about just about anything!You are totally wrong about that.
I understand being wary of marketing BS. I have yet to ride a Naish or Starboard that I like, if the only way to get a foil was through those brands I'd be cynical also.
Why am I pro gofoil?
I have seen multiple videos of multiple riders getting glides the likes of which I have never seen before. I suspect it would cost a fortune to fake those videos. I saw a couple rides that blew my mind, and I don't care how hard or dangerous learning to downwind foil is, I'm sold.
Well, that statement really is ironic :)
How about if we don't have anything nice to say we don't say anything at all?
I grew up with complainers and haters and I didn't feel safe bringing my ideas to that crowd, so I had to squash my passions or keep them secret for years until I found a safe place to be myself and be the early adopter.
What rubs me the wrong way is seeing someone's passion and years of trail and error be pissed on and hated on. It takes a lot of courage to keep at something new and different and unpopular, and then at the first sign of success the negative Nancy's come along and beat the crap out of it.
I understand being wary of marketing BS. I have yet to ride a Naish or Starboard that I like, if the only way to get a foil was through those brands I'd be cynical also.
What rubs me the wrong way is seeing someone's passion and years of trail and error be pissed on and hated on. It takes a lot of courage to keep at something new and different and unpopular, and then at the first sign of success the negative Nancy's come along and beat the crap out of it.
First you mentioned that you changed your sails for the ease of uphaul.
Why didn't you bought a bigger windsurfing board?
The ease of uphaul increases exponentially. I have 3 light air boards, Fanatic Ray 130, Ray 145 and *board Formula
It's not about being "able" to up haul. It's about the fact that you MUST up haul all day long because you are using a sail way, way, too small to water start. Would your back hold up to up hauling all day long? We're not kids anymore. I designed and built my own foil board. 214 x 79 x 127 liters. Made for strapless foiling. Short and thin up front so the wind doesn't push it around once airborne. Wide for easy up hauling.
Like the main advantage of paddleboard behind the boat is that you can start standing up at zero speed, 1, 2, 5, 8 mph... (the second advantage that you need no more than 10... 12 mph, so you can use a smaller boat, and the wipeouts are gentle for old body)
There are no gentle wipeouts. People are not showing you the "real" learning experience. These foils release their energy when you bail. They can cartwheel and hit you in the head, mouth, face, etc.
With a windsurfer, the sail seems to tame the devil under the water, way more than other ways of foiling.
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/IMG_0260_zpsspigav0z.jpg)[/URL][/img]
There was also a foiled windsurfer out on the ugliest board I've seen in a while. Big round nose. Like a downsized formula board, but thick as an inflatable.
so what is so special about the special board you building?
214 x 79 x 127
so what is so special about the special board you building?
214 x 79 x 127
F4 foils is reporting Tuttle box failures for some people.
So I built a board with super strong deep Tuttle box installation. Because I was building from scratch, I decided to follow the design ideas of the leader (Horue) in windsurf foiling. Shorter than normal. Wider than normal up front. Seems to work well.
In the future (when Neil Pryde releases their Olympic foil) I expect Racing class windsurfers to have foil duty rated Tuttle boxes. Boards will be rated for foil use. Expect more boards with deep Tuttles. Also expect these boards to come with extra strap inserts located for foiling. Current strap placement is not ideal for foiling.
Btw! Foiling at slow speeds is actually more dangerous. It's when the foil is going slowest that it looses stability and flips you off. It's scarier going fast, but foil gets very stable at speed.
You will grow to hate heavy sails when you get your foil.
Clay, if that's within your definition of being hated on, then you've either been oversensitized by your prior environment, or you're a pretty sensitive dude. Expressing varied opinions is the only way to have a useful conversation. There's nothing more boring than someone who agrees with everything I say. Fortunately that's vanishingly rare.
another Q is about range. Is it more or less when on the foil than on regular wsrfng?
If 7.5 is too big of a sail for you... compare your biggest wsrfng setup (I am guessing 7.0 on 110 liters) with appropriate foil setup (I am guessing something like 5.2?) for the purpose of this comparison.
I am guessing when overpowered this huge board in the air will be a sail on it, "catching air"...
I am guessing when overpowered the wipe out won't be pretty either??
Cast it from your mind mate, it doesn't matter one jot. This forum would be a lot less interesting if people didn't regularly express strong opinions.Clay, if that's within your definition of being hated on, then you've either been oversensitized by your prior environment, or you're a pretty sensitive dude. Expressing varied opinions is the only way to have a useful conversation. There's nothing more boring than someone who agrees with everything I say. Fortunately that's vanishingly rare.
Yeah I got all that and lots of other emotional baggage, still working on sorting it all out. :)
If my comments are rude or hurtful, that's not my intention, and I apologize.
another Q is about range. Is it more or less when on the foil than on regular wsrfng?
I don't have the skills to answer that yet. Over powered for me, is going too fast, that high in the air. I'm able to foil at speeds comparable to windsurfing on the water. Say 25 mph on average. I've raced a kiter. The kiter said he was scared racing me.
If 7.5 is too big of a sail for you... compare your biggest wsrfng setup (I am guessing 7.0 on 110 liters) with appropriate foil setup (I am guessing something like 5.2?) for the purpose of this comparison.
My biggest board sail combo was 123L slalom board and 7.5m sail. My 6.5m sail and foil beats that. It takes a formula board and 8.5m sail to match me on the foil.I am guessing when overpowered this huge board in the air will be a sail on it, "catching air"...
I am guessing when overpowered the wipe out won't be pretty either??
When over powered, I ride down on the water. It doesn't fly, unless you let it fly. Stand 6" forward, it's never going to lift off the water.
Crashing is easy and fun. We eject all the time. That's the beauty of strapless foiling.
I can now use the same sail size as my wifey...we were at least 0.5m2-0.7m2 apart non regular windsurf gear...
Pretty cool video if you have a few minutes:
Kite vs. Moth vs. Nacra F20 FCS vs. Marstrom 32
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfBumbfPpnM
"Hydrofoils aren’t new, but almost everyone who’s done it uses a boat or kite to provide the propulsion necessary to get up. Lenny doesn’t need either of those, because he’s a monster who can get those speeds using nothing but a paddle and his arms."
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/05/this-is-the-future-of-paddleboarding-and-its-terrifying
Scroll down a bit and you can see how much power and speed is needed for light weight Kai to get his board to foil.
He is hammering for about 8 or so full power strokes and uses the swell to launch bounce and pop up. Once there he looks ok - and his feet remain pretty well fixed. So it definitely looks possible - but balance - and strength to weight are key. When you watch that take-off - it does look doable in the right conditions. Wind looks about 20 kts steady.
Would guess that at the speed we plane on our DW runs in decent breeze - it looks like plenty to get up on a foil and fly. We are planing at faster than you can ever paddle. Hmmm... There may be something to this. :)
Pretty cool video if you have a few minutes:
Kite vs. Moth vs. Nacra F20 FCS vs. Marstrom 32
Warren, was that day #1?
If so, I'm impressed!
Pretty cool video if you have a few minutes:
Kite vs. Moth vs. Nacra F20 FCS vs. Marstrom 32
Wow. What you are looking at here is a Quantum Shift is Sailing Ethos.
Historically Waterline ALWAYS WON. This goes without exception in the aquatic world. High aspect ratio, long and thin, whether you are swimming, sailing or pushing a boat was always faster. No matter the strength to weight a short stumpy dude will never overcome Micheal Phelps hydrodynamic advantage.
With sailboats they kept getting longer and longer, Americas Cup J boats were 135 feet in 1930.
Then along comes the catamaran. Instantly 2X the waterline and MORE speed.
Now the foil is flying. Waterline efficiency is made irrelevant. Lift to Drag becomes the game.
The kiter wins because he has eliminated all the overhead. He is a man standing on a foil holding a sail. No hull, no vessel, no mast. Since he is lighter the foil has to produce less lift and correspondingly LESS DRAG. This makes sense academically but this video shows a speed advantage of 25% that goes well beyond what I would have imagined.
The game has changed to LESS IS MORE. :o
Pretty cool video if you have a few minutes:
Kite vs. Moth vs. Nacra F20 FCS vs. Marstrom 32
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfBumbfPpnM
Umm, catamarans don't have 2X waterline, they have hulls so narrow the froude "limit" . . . .
But yes, foils are exciting. Of course they've been around for over a hundred years, and not that much has been done with them. Because . . . . the Kiwis are gonna kick your ass with a weaker boat.
Warren, was that day #1?
If so, I'm impressed!
Aloha Greg,
Yeppers...I was stoked...I had some good crashes...so, it wasn't all teddy bears and flowers...;-)
Here's a pre-impact ejection below...
I watched the vid clips...visualized...but, I knew it was gonna be a challenge after watching some of the kitefoilers, who are damn good kiters, struggle with it...
I know that you've seen some of the learning curve kite foil kitemares...;-)
I had one attempt here in town in 10-13 mph on a 6.2m2...but, the fog killed the breeze before I could get out to the wind line...and, I had to grovel through kelp salad in the shore pound...constantly dropping to clear the foil...so, I'm not counting that...;-)
Did get my uphaul back on, though...boy, isn't that a joy...;-)
Hi Warren,
my box position is fine, but i use a kitefoil mast/fuselage and only the large wing of the Mantafoil windfoil.
The original Mantafoil windfoil has a forward inclined mast, like all the other windfoils designed for the rear standard box position like Horue, Loke, Ketos or Kerfoil.
These foils often also use a more rearward connectionpoint of mast to fuselage to get the foil more forward under the board.
Kerfoil did some tests with there foil in forward positioned boxes (see Quatro SUP and AHD SL in video sec 0:25 - 0:35) and i was told by them it wasn't working very well.
Alex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4eGc7RrEZM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4eGc7RrEZM)
Am I the only one who doesn't see the appeal in surf with these foils? The downwind videos look super fun and I can understand the benefits there but every video I've seen of these foil SUPs surfing hasn't been that appealing to me, just a whole lot of pumping and not much else. I understand that you can ride unbroken waves or make marginal surf more fun but you can do that by surfing a raceboard or a longboard SUP too. Are there additional benefits to the surf side that I'm missing?
Am I the only one who doesn't see the appeal in surf with these foils?
It's amazing how much speed Zane generates with just a couple pumps.
It's amazing how much speed Zane generates with just a couple pumps.
More ROI than any "Huntington Hop" ever got anybody at HB...;-)
Aloha Alex,
The board I am currently building is similar length to the sailboard that I am foiling on...and, I have ridden it as a SUP...and, know my foot placement...
Your foil position is more forward of mine...and, there are a few other builders with more forward locations...is yours too far forward?
BTW, I looked at the Manta foils and conversed with those guys...but, opted for lighter weight carbon...
The mast angle and foil type, definitely is part of the equation...for safety reasons alone, I don't like it as far aft as it is on the sailboard I am using to windfoil...
I have kicked it several times waterstarting...even though, I am trying to be careful...
I have also studied most of what is on the www, and, came to the conclusion to locate the box where I have...this will allow me to place my rear foot behind the mast if I want, while I am SUP foiling...similar to what the AHD foil board is, and what many kitefoilers do...but, also use the board for SUP and windSUP when I plug the deep Tuttle cavity and use the US box option...
Lastly, as this board is a proto, it won't be that big of a deal to R/R...reconfigure...the boxes if I have to...but, I don't think I will...plus, I am working on a windFoil with somebody who makes kitefoils...so, I will need to test the lift and stability...etc...in this position as well...;-)
He's already at the next level:
https://www.facebook.com/kai.lenny/videos/10154375563294312/
JP
SUP foiling in the Gorge.
It would have been really interesting to see someone on a downwind board for comparison.
SUP foiling in the Gorge.
It would have been really interesting to see someone on a downwind board for comparison.
https://vimeo.com/179013971
...
Are those kids or adults on the foiled sups?
The windsurfing looks more fun with less work !
who else got a email from go foil last week?I did.
https://youtu.be/h7XupqFOFSg
I just got word from a friend of mine that certain unnamed people on the north shore of Oahu are working on a safer foil that won't slice or decapitate you if you get hit by it. It's made out of high density rubber. Swear to gawd.
So I guess excessive board pumping is now going to be considered good style?