Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Downwind and Racing => Topic started by: surfssup on February 11, 2016, 03:49:27 AM
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By looks of it and feedback during development it looks like it will cream a downwind run so am looking forward to them arriving in the UK.
27,25, 23. One of my guys has the 23 on order and I've got the 25 so let's see who gets the longest glides.
Am pretty convinced now about the RAIL. Super quick in smaller sharper bumps. M14 def. still cuts it when conditions get ugly and not so clean.
We've had a lot of DW runs in UK this year already. Most have been spending time on the harbour near us, but a few of more adventurers have gone out to open water to crack out some runs and it's been worth it.
WIll get some reviews up and pics once we have got the Sidewinders in and ridden.
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Maybe it's called the Sidewinder because it goes good when the wind is from the side. ;)
Just kidding.
http://www.jimmylewis.eu/news/report-sidewinder-race-2016/
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...as usual, Jimmy's naming convention for his boards dictates that it be some sort of weapon. ::). As for the graphics and colour, well that too, is personal. I'm not liking the black and the pseudo tribal artwork. It should be red - it's soooo much faster... Or the JL orange, or even the ice blue. Regardless, that's all superficial...the proof is in the pudding: someone needs to paddle one and report back.
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I'm very much looking forward to this one as a few of us had some input into things so be good to see how that was translated.
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These new wide nose boards are interesting. I’m looking forward to hear more about the Bark Vapor and this one. If you still have input on the Sidewinder, please mention that black boards don’t do well in the hot tropical clement.
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By looks of it and feedback during development it looks like it will cream a downwind run so am looking forward to them arriving in the UK.
27,25, 23. One of my guys has the 23 on order and I've got the 25 so let's see who gets the longest glides.
Am pretty convinced now about the RAIL. Super quick in smaller sharper bumps. M14 def. still cuts it when conditions get ugly and not so clean.
We've had a lot of DW runs in UK this year already. Most have been spending time on the harbour near us, but a few of more adventurers have gone out to open water to crack out some runs and it's been worth it.
WIll get some reviews up and pics once we have got the Sidewinders in and ridden.
Looks like the Sidewinder is coming in a 29" width too in the ocean model. Read that in a link here. All the bases are covered for all sizes of paddler. The shape looks very functional but I'm not feeling the graphics and the black colour.
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Robon, I clicked on the link and got an awesome offer on (Yonex PC SC-6 Badminton Shoes-ocean blue-Model 2013) ;D
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Can get it in any colour with a pre-order. JL boards come in a range of pantones so if you want something unique and without tattoos all over it (maybe pink) then you can request it.
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By looks of it and feedback during development it looks like it will cream a downwind run so am looking forward to them arriving in the UK.....
Am pretty convinced now about the RAIL. Super quick in smaller sharper bumps. M14 def. still cuts it when conditions get ugly and not so clean.....
WIll get some reviews up and pics once we have got the Sidewinders in and ridden.
Agree that the M-14 cuts it when conditions get festive. Look forward to your reviews. :)
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Starboard and SIC are getting all the hype these days. More pics of the sidewinder.
https://www.facebook.com/jimmylewis.eu/photos/a.108446492508604.12843.108019349217985/1123155397704370/?type=3&theater
http://jansurf.com/jimmy-lewis-sidewinder-2016/
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Robon, the 14x29 at 320L would even float you :)
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Robon, the 14x29 at 320L would even float you :)
Umm...yeah.
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Has anybody tested this board? Any comments?
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Has anybody tested this board? Any comments?
Not heard any feedback that isn't from a dealer or sponsored rider.
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A friend has this board in 14 X 23 and came on a dw with us. The first thing I noticed was the board is incredibly flexy which I wasn't expecting, upside down on the ground you can see it flex just by using one hand and lightly pressing down its almost like they left something out although it was very light. it was looked prity hard work by all accounts and he was on his knees at the end going into the harbour when I was still very happy on my 26 wide dw board and normal prity much ok on my 24 wide on the same run which is about 7 miles, the board is very thick which is probably not helping with stability.
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Has anybody tested this board? Any comments?
Not heard any feedback that isn't from a dealer or sponsored rider.
Any hype from undisclosed dealers or sponsored riders or others who have derived compensation one way or another really only discredits that brand in the end. That person posting simply loses credibility and loses face. Much better to disclose any relationships in the signature so all can plainly see on an ongoing basis.
Getting a close-out deal anyone can get - is another matter though. ;)
It seems finding out someone being a shill can cause long term problems and really hurt the brand. And really do appreciate when relationships are fully disclosed.
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I think someone did quite well on one at a flat race the other day around the Thames.
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I think someone did quite well on one at a flat race the other day around the Thames.
https://www.supboardermag.com/2016/05/11/2016-battle-of-the-thames-in-london-event-video/
3th place was a JL Sidewinder. But was it a 14x23 or 14x25?
Edit: it was a 14x23 -> http://www.ezsup.co.uk/#!Battle-of-the-Thames-2016-National-SUP-CLUB-Series/c1b9y/572f26bb0cf20cbfb294f74e
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review in German but Google translate does ok job: :-)
http://www.supshop24-7.com/sup24-7-sup-infos/sup-news/
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Generally it seems like 25s are better for heavier paddlers - and 23s better for lighter.
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A friend has this board in 14 X 23 and came on a dw with us. The first thing I noticed was the board is incredibly flexy which I wasn't expecting, upside down on the ground you can see it flex just by using one hand and lightly pressing down its almost like they left something out although it was very light. it was looked prity hard work by all accounts and he was on his knees at the end going into the harbour when I was still very happy on my 26 wide dw board and normal prity much ok on my 24 wide on the same run which is about 7 miles, the board is very thick which is probably not helping with stability.
That's odd, Jimmy's boards are generally a full on sandwich. If anything they feel too stiff to me. Wonder what that deal was.
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Yeah, that sounds like a board with water damage.
I don't know about the JL downwind boards but I have a Stun Gun surf sup and it is plenty stiff. I love that board. If I were going to try a fixed fin downwind board, I'd definitely give the JL's a chance. The shapes look very good to me.
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yes i was surprised too it was the chaps board in the earlier link that mentioned it and showed me before we did the dw it was almost brand new at the time, he still seams to be using it so i don't know what the deal was he seamed a little disappointed at the time, it was very light maybe only 9kg so perhaps it wasn't a sandwich board.
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I absolutely love my sidewinder. I posted a review of the 14x25 Sidewinder in the gear review section.
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I'm trying a 14x25 Sidewinder at the moment. There isn't any more flex than you'd expect for a board this light. In fact, the fit and finish look to be up to the usual excellent JL standard - although the handle is slightly off. Maybe the 23" wide is aimed at elites and super-lightweights and so is a different layup?
The one I've got is stable for a 25" wide board. I haven't finished testing it yet but I'll let you know when I have. First impressions were very favourable.
It's pretty ambitious for most people to go to 23" wide in the conditions supuk often downwinds in, I think. Supuk's boards are tuned to them and so are extremely stable for their width. And supuk has balance that is well into the elite class. So I'm not surprised that someone might have to Pocahontas a 23. That will be a very valuable lesson learned I suspect.
I see that Jake Jenson had to give up during the first lap at the San Sebastián race because he started on a 21" wide board, but there was a messy bumpy section of the course. I suspect that the elites are now finding the point where a theoretically faster board becomes a practically slower one, once you stray from millpond conditions. As Larry Cain has pointed out recently, in some situations stability=speed.
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Good one Area 10.... I think you will be the only one so far that that will be giving an independent view of this board. All the rest of the reviews are by JL dealers or have connections so I don't pay any attention to those ( no offence to the others).
Of course, the only way to know if a board is for you is to demo it. One person's like doesn't transfer to someone else.
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Well, I had the board for a few days, but the weather didn't completely co-operate as far as being able to try it downwind was concerned. So as far as DW goes I can only say that in hell choppy crazily short period stuff I didn't find the Sidewinder as easy as I thought I would. But I'd really need to try it again in some more typical DW conditions before casting judgement on it's DW abilities. Certainly though the board was harder than one of supuk's heavily-rockered full-on planing design DW boards would have been. But maybe in lighter wind and better groomed stuff it would really shine. I hope I get another chance to try it in those conditions.
So that was inconclusive. But what I can say about the 14x25 Sidewinder is this:
1. Much faster in pure flat water than I was expecting. This board is basically a prone paddleboard shape, like the Bark Vapor. So you get quite a lot of spray off the nose as you paddle in flat water. This usually signifies a loss of speed, but in fact the Sidewinder is about the same speed in flat water as a typical displacement nose board that was a couple of inches wider. So, you could definitely race it in flat water. It's not the ultimate in flat water missiles, but it is perfectly acceptable unless you aspire to getting the last 0.5% in flat water speed. If the course was chopped up or there was a lot of drafting of buoy turns, the board would make even more sense as a flat water racer.
2. Surfs well for a 14ft. The Sidewinder has quite a fine edge at the very rear of the board and you can use this to steer well. It picks up waves easily and is generally pretty forgiving.
3. Goes upwind in small chop well. Tends to just skim over ripples a bit like the Ace does. It tracks well upwind also. I didn't really get a chance to try it for any length of time crosswind, unfortunately, so I can't say much about that.
4. Fit and finish seemed excellent, and the board wasn't soft or flexy , given its very light weight. The handle in this particular board was not in the right place, so it was nose-heavy which made it feel heavier to carry than it should have done. If you fitted a heavier fin and wrapped your leash round the tail it almost compensated for it, so it wasn't wildly off. But enough so that if you are buying one of these it would be a good idea to try lifting it first just to check you are happy with it. I've been told that this has been fixed for 2017. We shall see.
So, overall, I liked it enough to want to try it again, and perhaps try the 23" wide version. It is very stable for 25" wide and if your conditions are mainly flattish water and just downbreezing you might be able to go narrower than you'd think. I surfed this board about a mile offshore where there are very long fat waves (up to half a mile) but lots of rips and eddies, and had a dry-hair session of about 1.5hrs, which is pretty good for me as my balance is nothing special at all and my legs are pretty feeble. In pure flat water it is very stable and so for instance when on the waterway I was on was blocked by about 20 beginner kayaking children moving around in completely random and uncontrolled ways, I was able to happily stand and wait for them to disperse with my paddle resting on the deck without even thinking about falling. The wide tail means that the board is easy to kick turn, and the parallel outline means that tracking is good.
Now, don't get me wrong - this board isn't stable enough for most complete beginners. It is only 25" wide and is very light, after all. But it is much more stable than a 14x25 Ace for instance, and feels about the same to me as a typical 14x27 displacement nose (ie. cutting bow) race board would. The light weight and extremely rounded (almost egg-shaped) rails on the front half (or more) does mean that when it tips in side chop it can do it quite quickly and take you by surprise. But mostly the impression I was left with was of a very user-friendly and highly adaptable board. I very much would like the chance to try it again, and if you are a good intermediate or advanced paddler who is in the market for a "stable-for-it's-width", user-friendly all-conditions race board that is lightweight and a good price point for the construction (full carbon PVC sandwich), then IMO you'd do very well indeed to try the Sidewinder out.
Hope this helps. And yes, I've got no connection to JL or any part of the watersports business, and I was just demoing the board as an ordinary punter thinking about purchasing it. So this is about as independent a review as you are likely to get.
Equally, you are dead right, coldsup, there's no substitute for trying a board yourself. Which is why I did. And so should you, if you possibly can.
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Good, sounds like a good all round raceboard...well done Mr Jimmy ;D
I'm never convinced these ocean race boards are great DW boards for the masses....go for a DW one if you really want to DW. But they are probably ideal for downbreezers which for many does the job nicely.
It's weird isn't it ....how do these companies not get the balance right on their boards. That's the second comment I have heard on the Sidewinder not having bang on handle balance. Just like my Starby.
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Yeah the handle thing is odd.
Here's a simple solution for all the board buiłders out there:
MAKE THE HANDLES LONGER.
Then you wouldn't have to be so precise with the positioning, and changes of fin etc wouldn't throw the balance out because you could move the position of your hand to account for it.
Joe Bark does this with the long strap handles he uses. But there's no need to go quite that far. Just 2-3 inches longer would probably mean that customers are complaining much less frequently about misplaced handles.
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A10 good info - and so refreshing to see a review that has complete and full disclosure. Any biased review written by someone who is connected to the brand - without disclosure - is an out and out shill and a disgrace.
At least some more recently have the honor and decency to disclose they are ambassadors - or they obtained a discount - or they received a commission in some way. But still - not putting this in their sig seems very shady and not right. Having to dig for this by others - or find this info in an old post - is pretty low and seems deceitful. Ones that simply post this connection in their sig for all to see - all the time - are doing the right thing and garner respect.
Both you and coldsup are right as well in your comments about testing a board firsthand. Even with the same weight and height - a board can feel vastly different to the user if their balance levels differ. A note about feeble legs - what helps is doing heavy low squats. Seems to strengthen your stance a lot when getting tossed about in slop and chop - legs do not seem to get tired out as fast. May help if you are ok to do them.
Odd thing is - my old M-14 is quite nose heavy as well. Though it does balance out somewhat with the heavy glass tracker fin in place. All manufacturers should simply test this out and get it right before shipping. SIC with their Easy Grab seems to work best as the handle can be torqued just by changing your grip a bit.
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Hello guys
Just correcting something that was mentioned. I am the UK importer for JL so yes, I have an interest. I have looked to see how others are showing their associations but couldn't find anything , so if you could point it out I'd be happy to mention my links.
As for the recent independent review, I am very pleased to see the board was well received. Area 10 seemed very pleased with the board when he dropped it off after trialing it for a few days.
Handle balancing, I spoke with Jimmy after this was first noted and he advised that he has once again told the factory to address this. He has a very simple method for them to follow but in this run it was not correct.
I cannot comment on construction other than it is full sandwich.
I know my team rider who uses the 14x23 has been getting a lot of time out on the board and scored a 3rd at Battle of the Thames after he had 2 years out of the race scene and scored a 2nd place last week so not too shabby. It's been flat water racing to date. He also has a 14x25 for when conditions get too tricky on such a skinny stick.
This board is an exciting progressive shape that will lead to further development as with anything. We're really lucky to have some superb team riders and ambassadors, but for those of you that know Jimmy, he does not believe in simply giving boards to paddlers . These guys really believe in the boards they're riding and that says something.
From my own water time - I have been a lot fast on the Sidewinder in clean, sharper dw conditions, but once it got more confused I opted for my Rail as the extra balance between strokes meant I wasn't missing a stroke or bump grab.
Hope that clears it up and happy to field any questions.........
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I think someone did quite well on one at a flat race the other day around the Thames.
https://www.supboardermag.com/2016/05/11/2016-battle-of-the-thames-in-london-event-video/
3th place was a JL Sidewinder. But was it a 14x23 or 14x25?
Edit: it was a 14x23 -> http://www.ezsup.co.uk/#!Battle-of-the-Thames-2016-National-SUP-CLUB-Series/c1b9y/572f26bb0cf20cbfb294f74e
This is an irrelevance though - his results could just as easily be in spite of the board than because of it. Either way, a review from a good rider with perfect balance and technique is not representative of the actual market. What we really need is a review from a middle of the pack paddler who bought their own board, not ambassadors and dealers trotting out marketing spiel.
I've seen the board and I'm curious as the new nose seems to really throw the spray out when on flat water which should mean it's terrible there but it seems to be a trend the likes of this and the starboard allstar are following (and I'm hearing very mixed reviews about that one too).
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Hey UKGM.
You're more than welcome to come and try a 14x25 to see how you get on. You have probably seen the board Mo has in Bournemouth which is only 12'6, maybe a bit small as you're pretty tall.
My comment relating to the fact it has done well in flat water races, simply that it must has something going to for it considering he is racing some of the UK top racers on flat water specific boards.
Anyway, on the 30th July we are offering a FREE training session with our main team rider don here in Bracklesham, Sussex. We'll work on paddle technique etc. You are more than welcome to come join the session and try the board, thus reviewing it yourself. I'd be very interested to see what you think once ridden.
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I think someone did quite well on one at a flat race the other day around the Thames.
https://www.supboardermag.com/2016/05/11/2016-battle-of-the-thames-in-london-event-video/
3th place was a JL Sidewinder. But was it a 14x23 or 14x25?
Edit: it was a 14x23 -> http://www.ezsup.co.uk/#!Battle-of-the-Thames-2016-National-SUP-CLUB-Series/c1b9y/572f26bb0cf20cbfb294f74e
This is an irrelevance though - his results could just as easily be in spite of the board than because of it. Either way, a review from a good rider with perfect balance and technique is not representative of the actual market. What we really need is a review from a middle of the pack paddler who bought their own board, not ambassadors and dealers trotting out marketing spiel.
I've seen the board and I'm curious as the new nose seems to really throw the spray out when on flat water which should mean it's terrible there but it seems to be a trend the likes of this and the starboard allstar are following (and I'm hearing very mixed reviews about that one too).
Well I'm pretty much the guy you describe - against my peers the same age I do OK but against a full pack of all age ranges and including sponsored riders I'd only be mid-pack. And I always pay for my own boards. So you've had one review at least. I GPS all my workouts and have about 8 years' worth of data on lots of boards on some standard courses I paddle. So it's quite easy for me to judge how fast a board is when I try it, assuming the weather co-operates.
I do think you should try the Sidewinder. You might also try the Mistral Equinox, which is another hybrid board that performs well as an all-conditions race board. A SIC FX would be interesting to try too.
These new breed of hybrid boards are so stable for their width and so user-friendly that it's easy to manage surprisingly decent average speeds without tiring. Actually, they kinda change the way you paddle, which is interesting.
What criticisms have you heard about the All Star? Mostly the coverage on the web has been extraordinarily positive, I thought. Coldsup seems to have given a more balanced review but have I missed something else?
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I think someone did quite well on one at a flat race the other day around the Thames.
https://www.supboardermag.com/2016/05/11/2016-battle-of-the-thames-in-london-event-video/
3th place was a JL Sidewinder. But was it a 14x23 or 14x25?
Edit: it was a 14x23 -> http://www.ezsup.co.uk/#!Battle-of-the-Thames-2016-National-SUP-CLUB-Series/c1b9y/572f26bb0cf20cbfb294f74e
This is an irrelevance though - his results could just as easily be in spite of the board than because of it. Either way, a review from a good rider with perfect balance and technique is not representative of the actual market. What we really need is a review from a middle of the pack paddler who bought their own board, not ambassadors and dealers trotting out marketing spiel.
I've seen the board and I'm curious as the new nose seems to really throw the spray out when on flat water which should mean it's terrible there but it seems to be a trend the likes of this and the starboard allstar are following (and I'm hearing very mixed reviews about that one too).
Well I'm pretty much the guy you describe - against my peers the same age I do OK but against a full pack of all age ranges and including sponsored riders I'd only be mid-pack. And I always pay for my own boards. So you've had one review at least. I GPS all my workouts and have about 8 years' worth of data on lots of boards on some standard courses I paddle. So it's quite easy for me to judge how fast a board is when I try it, assuming the weather co-operates.
I do think you should try the Sidewinder. You might also try the Mistral Equinox, which is another hybrid board that performs well as an all-conditions race board. A SIC FX would be interesting to try too.
These new breed of hybrid boards are so stable for their width and so user-friendly that it's easy to manage surprisingly decent average speeds without tiring. Actually, they kinda change the way you paddle, which is interesting.
What criticisms have you heard about the All Star? Mostly the coverage on the web has been extraordinarily positive, I thought. Coldsup seems to have given a more balanced review but have I missed something else?
Yep it wasn't aimed at you but the extent of positive reviews with clear undisclosed bias is pretty awful on here.
I tried the 24.5 Equinox last week after a race but (at my height and weight) was beyond a comfortable level of stability I would race on. Plenty of friends of mine do like it though and it is light, well made and well conceived. I have been told from a good source that it was mapped after an Ace but with a wider tail then added.
As for the Allstar, the coverage on the web has been mixed with some sites saying it is great, others saying it is slower than last years and Larry Cain yet to publish the results of his own testing. There are a lot of clear conflicts of interest again though and I know of several athletes who have one who say its not brilliant in a small chop/flatter water scenario. I would discount that though until I've tried it myself. I want to know if the 25 14ft is as overtly stable as people have been raving about. Do you have a link to a good review for it on here as I'd like to know more of people's experiences about it. The mooted 2017 24.5 is likely too much for me but I might consider it.
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The 27 Allstar is really stable and I am talking about stability on the ocean rather than flat water stuff.
I would be okay on the 25 on flat water and guess would be okay over more time out in the ocean...but I don't paddle 14 boards all the time and regularly....so 25 not for me.
I really like the uncluttered design of the board.....it is a user friendly board.....but I will leave it to the racers to decide how it stacks up against others. I'm not surprised it is well liked though.
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ukgm - Other than Coldsup's valuable insights, all the All Star reviews are virtually all from retailers, Starboard employees, or other people with a potential conflict of interest I think.
There must surely be someone who races one in the UK? Could you try theirs. If there isn't anyone, maybe that says all you need to know. Or maybe they are just too expensive. There are still unsold 2015 Naish Javelin LEs for sale in the UK I think - they were over £2.5k.
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ukgm - Other than Coldsup's valuable insights, all the All Star reviews are virtually all from retailers, Starboard employees, or other people with a potential conflict of interest I think.
There must surely be someone who races one in the UK? Could you try theirs. If there isn't anyone, maybe that says all you need to know. Or maybe they are just too expensive. There are still unsold 2015 Naish Javelin LEs for sale in the UK I think - they were over £2.5k.
Oh, and the 14x25 Sidewinder is quite a lot more stable than the Equinox.
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ukgm - Other than Coldsup's valuable insights, all the All Star reviews are virtually all from retailers, Starboard employees, or other people with a potential conflict of interest I think.
There must surely be someone who races one in the UK? Could you try theirs. If there isn't anyone, maybe that says all you need to know. Or maybe they are just too expensive. There are still unsold 2015 Naish Javelin LEs for sale in the UK I think - they were over £2.5k.
Same here the glowing reviews are usually from "sponsored" riders: i.e. this is such a great board at 2/3 or 1/2 the price, which to me is different than this is such a great board and I have no regret to have shelled so much $$$. A few people I know are not that sold on it and did not quite like it for catching bump. I tried one briefly and did not like it. I do prefer my Blackfish five-fold....but I am a bellow average paddler, so...
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Well my wife and I are pretty much average paddlers and we receive no compensation in any way from SB or any other brand. We have no undisclosed associations with any brand - and do not even get quasi "pro" deals. Often the stuff we get is from CL or advertised end-of-season discounts. ;D
Now a couple of years ago when my wife first started - she could barely stand 5 minutes on our Dominator without taking a break. When she easily jumped on the 14x25 All Star CS and started paddling away from me - it was surprising as she never had paddled a board narrower than 27.25". So it goes to show that balance skill is a very real and very personal aspect to SUP. So both our answers would be - the 25 is exceptionally stable for a 25. And just slightly less stable than our Dominator.
In fact I have now tried two different AS 23 CS - and am trying to justify adding one of those to our quiver. But for what we do in the ocean - am still not convinced we really need a narrower board at all. The 4 boards we have cover pretty much 95% of what we do out there. Nevertheless - if we can get one for a really deep discount - we may. Since my wife agrees she would use it as well. Getting a CS used for a lot less than a Hybrid new - does have appeal.
Interestingly - one of our local higher ranked racers tested the 23 25 and 27 AS. His on the water timed speed results he posted online declared no clear winner for him. So it seems weight and balance are the key fundamental factors at play when the engine is taken out of the equation - when comparing different widths. Where we paddle in the ocean - we always deal with variable and sometimes rough conditions. So that may be reason why that 25 is so stable for us.
Good on supsurf though to declare his close association to Jimmy. Keeping it real and transparent with no nonsense and no bs is always a good approach. ;)
Now c'mon Luc - we've paddled together - quit playin.
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ukgm - Other than Coldsup's valuable insights, all the All Star reviews are virtually all from retailers, Starboard employees, or other people with a potential conflict of interest I think.
There must surely be someone who races one in the UK? Could you try theirs. If there isn't anyone, maybe that says all you need to know. Or maybe they are just too expensive. There are still unsold 2015 Naish Javelin LEs for sale in the UK I think - they were over £2.5k.
Oh, and the 14x25 Sidewinder is quite a lot more stable than the Equinox.
I’m surprised you find the Sidewinder a lot more stable than the Equinox. I would have thought that the sunken decks of the Equinox would have made it as stable. I’m hoping the Equinox will make it to the States to demo. Just for reference, three boards that I have demoed are the 14x25 All Star, Bark Vapor, and SIC FX. The All Star was the most stable and the FX the most unstable. These were short demos so I can’t comment on speed.
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Yeah, maybe "a lot" is pushing it a bit far, on reflection. Perhaps "a bit" might be a better judgement. The Sidewinder is a fraction wider and has a much wider tail, plus quite thick rails, and these factors just outweigh the sunken deck and fairly deep concave of the Equinox. I'm probably going to do a separate review of the Equinox so I won't bother saying too much here, but it feels a lot like an Ace but with easier handling. So if you know what an Ace feels like you will know how sunken decks do give stability of sorts. But the loss of volume of a dugout also gives a distinctive handling characteristic that some people feel stable with and some don't. So I think that judgements of stability for dugouts are likely to be quite personal things. Some people describe the 14x25 Ace as stable for it's width, especially in chop. But I don't find it stable at all. The Equinox is usefully more stable than the Ace 14x25 IMO.
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What we really need is a review from a middle of the pack paddler who bought their own board, not ambassadors and dealers trotting out marketing spiel.
I bought my own Sidewinder 14x25 and I'm not a ambassador or dealer of Jimmy Lewis.
And I fully agree with the review by Area10.
I started last year with paddling on a SIC Bullet TWC on flat water, bought a used JL Stiletto (14x28, 2014) because the Bullet isn't fast on flat water.
But the Stiletto wasn't fast than assumed and I bought a used Starboard Sprint (14x23, 2015).
In fact the Sprint was slower than the Stiletto, because I did not have the balance skills for this narrow board (yes on flat water it was very fast, but with some very little waves or in races, it meant a lot of swimming for me.
After a race I could test a Sidewinder 14x25 and it was great. Within 10 minutes, I decided to buy this board.
Meanwhile, I did two races with the Sidewinder. 19 km (lost mills) and 10km (Alps Trophy) without swimming :D
Ok, I'm not a fast paddler, because I have no technic and endurance. Drafting is a lucky game and I became slowly if the water isn't flat, buoy turns are a desaster or very slowly. So I was very happy with my average speed of 8.2 km/h and 8.4 km/h. This means there is potential to become faster ;-)
With the Sidewinder I have really fun and no stress and it is faster than the Stiletto. So a perfect choice for me.
I'm 51, 202 lbs and 6'.3".
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I think there is a lot of Starby/Allstar bashing regardless because you see the dammed things all the time on social media or in every mag. You get sick of it. Plus the price of the carbon is ridiculous....as with some other brands. the more a brand is in your face and the more it's Ambassadors push it in your face the more you turn off.....well I do.
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I think there is a lot of Starby/Allstar bashing regardless because you see the dammed things all the time on social media or in every mag. You get sick of it. Plus the price of the carbon is ridiculous....as with some other brands. the more a brand is in your face and the more it's Ambassadors push it in your face the more you turn off.....well I do.
I agree - there is an anti SB thing going on. However, I bizarrely have heard offline criticism from people that do not have a conflict of interest and its also interesting that many of the current UK team are actually opting to use different/older/discontinued boards still rather than that board.
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I'm probably going to do a separate review of the Equinox so I won't bother saying too much here, but it feels a lot like an Ace but with easier handling.
It should do. That was the basis behind its design. I felt it had a very 'log rolling' feel. However, I should add that I'd just stepped off from a N1sco race so everything was going to feel a bit twitchy compared to that. I then tried a Javelin immediately after that and instantly felt better but then that board was just over an inch wider.
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ukgm - Other than Coldsup's valuable insights, all the All Star reviews are virtually all from retailers, Starboard employees, or other people with a potential conflict of interest I think.
There must surely be someone who races one in the UK? Could you try theirs. If there isn't anyone, maybe that says all you need to know. Or maybe they are just too expensive. There are still unsold 2015 Naish Javelin LEs for sale in the UK I think - they were over £2.5k.
I'm going to see if I can get out on one after my next race. I quite fancy another go on a Javelin (I liked the lowered deck of the 2016 version) but realistically, at this stage, I won't buy any board unless it is proven competent on flatwater using robust testing as that's how most of the UK races are held. A fast flatwater board than can draft or handle the first 10 minutes of carnage is the goal. Maybe a 25 allstar is that board maybe its something else.
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Hey UKGM.
You're more than welcome to come and try a 14x25 to see how you get on. You have probably seen the board Mo has in Bournemouth which is only 12'6, maybe a bit small as you're pretty tall.
My comment relating to the fact it has done well in flat water races, simply that it must has something going to for it considering he is racing some of the UK top racers on flat water specific boards.
Anyway, on the 30th July we are offering a FREE training session with our main team rider don here in Bracklesham, Sussex. We'll work on paddle technique etc. You are more than welcome to come join the session and try the board, thus reviewing it yourself. I'd be very interested to see what you think once ridden.
Thanks for the kind offer - I'll bear it in mind.
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I just got sent this so thought it may be of interest. http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/201617-NEW-Jimmy-Lewis-Sidewinder-Race-Board/?SearchTerms=Jimmy%2CLewis%2Csidewinder
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I just got sent this so thought it may be of interest. http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/201617-NEW-Jimmy-Lewis-Sidewinder-Race-Board/?SearchTerms=Jimmy%2CLewis%2Csidewinder
That's interesting. I have seen Mo's and Jason Sawyers board so can vouch for the decent finish [the only thing I would criticise Starboard of to date - I wonder what their 'no paint' finish is going to be like for durability next year]. I'm breaking up for summer in the next fortnight so I may well see if I can source a few different boards and do some more controlled testing of my own.
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Once again....that link/review is written by someone connected to JL sales.
Gets very tedious.
Area 10 has the only independent review I have seen so far....that's the only ONE on the web I have seen :)
UKGm.....you have the option to demo so go for it.
So many decent boards out there......
Back to my coffee
Oh...don't get me wrong in anyone thinking I am bashing JL....I'm a big fan of him....but hate all the social media pushing by the back door that ALL brands do.
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Once again....that link/review is written by someone connected to JL sales.
Oh...don't get me wrong in anyone thinking I am bashing JL....I'm a big fan of him....but hate all the social media pushing by the back door that ALL brands do.
I don't mind that they are connected, I do mind to that lack of disclosure. Mind you, I have now added content in my signature to keep mine as transparent as possible.
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We have a very handy canal over here UKGM. Near Chichester so not a bad place to get some glass and wind free conditions.
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That answers my original question then - I have added the JL link to my signature. Anyone else going to add it for clarity?
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Once again....that link/review is written by someone connected to JL sales.
Oh...don't get me wrong in anyone thinking I am bashing JL....I'm a big fan of him....but hate all the social media pushing by the back door that ALL brands do.
I don't mind that they are connected, I do mind to that lack of disclosure. Mind you, I have now added content in my signature to keep mine as transparent as possible.
Re the 25 Allstar and Mistral.....have a chat with Nick Watt at SUP Store as he rides both. Yes, he sells both but I could bet you he would give you his own opinions on both boards quite freely. Always found him an honest bloke....and he is a big guy like yourself I think.
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Once again....that link/review is written by someone connected to JL sales.
Oh...don't get me wrong in anyone thinking I am bashing JL....I'm a big fan of him....but hate all the social media pushing by the back door that ALL brands do.
I don't mind that they are connected, I do mind to that lack of disclosure. Mind you, I have now added content in my signature to keep mine as transparent as possible.
Re the 25 Allstar and Mistral.....have a chat with Nick Watt at SUP Store as he rides both. Yes, he sells both but I could bet you he would give you his own opinions on both boards quite freely. Always found him an honest bloke....and he is a big guy like yourself I think.
Thanks. Yep, I know Nick well and he's sold me a couple of boards in the past. I'll likely tap him up to borrow an Allstar.
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I think there is a lot of Starby/Allstar bashing regardless because you see the dammed things all the time on social media or in every mag. You get sick of it. Plus the price of the carbon is ridiculous....as with some other brands. the more a brand is in your face and the more it's Ambassadors push it in your face the more you turn off.....well I do.
Anti SB - has underlying reasons
I agree - there is an anti SB thing going on. However, I bizarrely have heard offline criticism from people that do not have a conflict of interest and its also interesting that many of the current UK team are actually opting to use different/older/discontinued boards still rather than that board.
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The 27 Allstar is really stable and I am talking about stability on the ocean rather than flat water stuff.
I would be okay on the 25 on flat water and guess would be okay over more time out in the ocean...but I don't paddle 14 boards all the time and regularly....so 25 not for me.
I really like the uncluttered design of the board.....it is a user friendly board.....but I will leave it to the racers to decide how it stacks up against others. I'm not surprised it is well liked though.
Secondary stability...
The AS is low in primary stability...
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Folks - social media is the WRONG platform for all of that talk..
It's just bitter & twisted and it owns you!
Try and survive without FB and report back ;D
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If FB goes - so does UKSUP
Let's rename stand up in the UK - FUP ?
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Folks - social media is the WRONG platform for all of that talk..
It's just bitter & twisted and it owns you!
Try and survive without FB and report back ;D
Hmm, some deleted comments now. What did I miss ?
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Area10, I agree the Ace has a rolly feel. It's an acquired taste, but has proven very successful by those that have mastered it. I’m looking forward to your review of the Equinox.
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Referring to a comment about splashing nose syndrome - you can ride this board slightly back so the nose rides as bit higher and reduce splash. The tail is very buoyant so doesn't begin to drag even for me at 95kg. We've been putting it up against the UBoat as well which has a piercing bow and results were interesting.
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Bit of a downwind shot for you
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We've been putting it up against the UBoat as well which has a piercing bow and results were interesting.
Do tell...... :D
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Excellent pics! :)
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Area10, I agree the Ace has a rolly feel. It's an acquired taste, but has proven very successful by those that have mastered it. I’m looking forward to your review of the Equinox.
For sure. Absolutely. That's why I have an Ace 14x25 carbon. A oleasure to paddle? Umm...no, not really. Effective? You bet. It's for people who care about winning, and does what it does very well. No-one can argue with the race results, and it's still the board the pros reach for when the race has mild chop or downwind, even though the design has been around a while.
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Folks - social media is the WRONG platform for all of that talk..
It's just bitter & twisted and it owns you!
Try and survive without FB and report back ;D
Hmm, some deleted comments now. What did I miss ?
Are you reading something else UKRivers? Where did that come from....must have missed something. I'd say the 2016 AS has good primary and exceptional secondary stability. It ain't like the one you used to have a few years back. But that's my opinion of course.
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Once again....that link/review is written by someone connected to JL sales.
Oh...don't get me wrong in anyone thinking I am bashing JL....I'm a big fan of him....but hate all the social media pushing by the back door that ALL brands do.
I don't mind that they are connected, I do mind to that lack of disclosure. Mind you, I have now added content in my signature to keep mine as transparent as possible.
Re the 25 Allstar and Mistral.....have a chat with Nick Watt at SUP Store as he rides both. Yes, he sells both but I could bet you he would give you his own opinions on both boards quite freely. Always found him an honest bloke....and he is a big guy like yourself I think.
Thanks. Yep, I know Nick well and he's sold me a couple of boards in the past. I'll likely tap him up to borrow an Allstar.
He has a X25 for demo.....it is the non carbon one.
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Maybe time to start a new post re the Starboard AllStar - Pros and Cons as this is getting confusing.
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Referring to a comment about splashing nose syndrome - you can ride this board slightly back so the nose rides as bit higher and reduce splash. The tail is very buoyant so doesn't begin to drag even for me at 95kg. We've been putting it up against the UBoat as well which has a piercing bow and results were interesting.
Where do you stand with your heels exactly?
I mean that the board works best with the heels at the position at the shark on the handle (92 kg).
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OK, so I weight in at 95kg dry.
I pretty much paddle with a switched stance even on the flat water runs so am not able to give a true answer, but how we test on the canal for glide is quite simple.
Pace out a comfy stroke rhythm. Don't go hell for leather as it tends to tip you back and forth. Focus on a good technique with a very perfect catch as possible.
Keep your eyes on the nose of the board at this point and just keep rolling along. We're not trying to win a race here.
I remember Danny Ching saying he counts and tbh that is how i used to showjump horses to maintain calm when things got a bit intense.
The board will throw spray off those as the steeper edges of it touch water, BUT, if you come back an inch and drop your weight just a fraction to the back foot you will notice the spray hugely reduce and the board will peel along more freely.
It's like anything. Get aggressive and the returns are often far less per ounce of effort put in.
We've been working on this board for quite a while and have a really good understanding of it, in particular the tail end that has that nice kick up. Comes in very handy when trimming lengthways and on buoy turns or surfing as Area 10 said earlier.
IMO - a piercing bow can be a pro and a con depending on the linear/lengthways balance of a board. At my weight if you cannot trim it evenly from nose to tail then you're often pushing or dragging.
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Referring to a comment about splashing nose syndrome - you can ride this board slightly back so the nose rides as bit higher and reduce splash. The tail is very buoyant so doesn't begin to drag even for me at 95kg. We've been putting it up against the UBoat as well which has a piercing bow and results were interesting.
Where do you stand with your heels exactly?
I mean that the board works best with the heels at the position at the shark on the handle (92 kg).
.... and whilst that might avoid the nose splash, won't that then change the trim of the board negatively and then just move the drag problem behind you where you can't see it ?
One of the things I was taught with aero (but it might not apply to hydro) dynamics is that its better to have a bluff body problem in front (and then tidy up the flow behind it) then to have a clean fluid flow but then finish with some feature that leaves the flow turbulent with nothing left to tidy it up.
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From our testing the release is clean off the tail and there is a fairly relaxed sweet spot. Do bear in mind I am talking about people of varying weights here.
All testing we have done is in real time/not computer generated etc. I've got a lifetime of experience in developing software and testing modules so whilst it does not directly relate to Hydro dynamics it does give you a kind of clean logic to work with no matter how you extract those figures.
Something Jimmy said to me way back was to imagine that there was a perfect shape and undeniable rules that could be applied. All boards would be perfect.
Another thing I've noticed on the JL SW is how the water very very quickly you can monetise those tiniest of ripples into positive momentum - and i mean small.
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Referring to a comment about splashing nose syndrome - you can ride this board slightly back so the nose rides as bit higher and reduce splash. The tail is very buoyant so doesn't begin to drag even for me at 95kg. We've been putting it up against the UBoat as well which has a piercing bow and results were interesting.
Where do you stand with your heels exactly?
I mean that the board works best with the heels at the position at the shark on the handle (92 kg).
.... and whilst that might avoid the nose splash, won't that then change the trim of the board negatively and then just move the drag problem behind you where you can't see it ?
One of the things I was taught with aero (but it might not apply to hydro) dynamics is that its better to have a bluff body problem in front (and then tidy up the flow behind it) then to have a clean fluid flow but then finish with some feature that leaves the flow turbulent with nothing left to tidy it up.
One very big difference between aero and hydro dynamics is 'surface tension' .....
You can't really ampere them in any way. Like compring the north pole to my Nans slippers :D
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Folks - social media is the WRONG platform for all of that talk..
It's just bitter & twisted and it owns you!
Try and survive without FB and report back ;D
Hmm, some deleted comments now. What did I miss ?
Are you reading something else UKRivers? Where did that come from....must have missed something. I'd say the 2016 AS has good primary and exceptional secondary stability. It ain't like the one you used to have a few years back. But that's my opinion of course.
It seems this comment was deleted from ukgm's post back a few pages -
"Anti SB - has underlying reasons."
Care to elaborate ukgm?
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Pace out a comfy stroke rhythm. Don't go hell for leather as it tends to tip you back and forth. Focus on a good technique with a very perfect catch as possible.
Keep your eyes on the nose of the board at this point and just keep rolling along. We're not trying to win a race here.
...
The board will throw spray off those as the steeper edges of it touch water, BUT, if you come back an inch and drop your weight just a fraction to the back foot you will notice the spray hugely reduce and the board will peel along more freely.
Thanks.
Less spray means good glide?
I tried different positions in combination with maximum speed. Too far forward or too far back gets a somewhat lesser max. speed noticeable.
It was best with the heel at the shark on the handle.
Nevertheless, I interested in the opinion of the experts ;-)
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Folks - social media is the WRONG platform for all of that talk..
It's just bitter & twisted and it owns you!
Try and survive without FB and report back ;D
Hmm, some deleted comments now. What did I miss ?
Are you reading something else UKRivers? Where did that come from....must have missed something. I'd say the 2016 AS has good primary and exceptional secondary stability. It ain't like the one you used to have a few years back. But that's my opinion of course.
It seems this comment was deleted from ukgm's post back a few pages -
"Anti SB - has underlying reasons."
Care to elaborate ukgm?
I'm not sure if that comment is directed at me but I personally don't know where that has come from. I didn't write that in my own post responses (did someone drop that into the shaded box of mine ?) and that's certainly not my own stance. I'm not anti SB at all - I have many friends on their UK team and wasn't ruling out considering applying to be on their team at some point in the future if I felt I was good enough or could contribute.
If I am being accused of anything (or if someone else is), please air what you know. I personally have nothing to hide (and have no conflicts of interest I have not already disclosed in my signature).
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I think there is a lot of Starby/Allstar bashing regardless because you see the dammed things all the time on social media or in every mag. You get sick of it. Plus the price of the carbon is ridiculous....as with some other brands. the more a brand is in your face and the more it's Ambassadors push it in your face the more you turn off.....well I do.
Anti SB - has underlying reasons
I agree - there is an anti SB thing going on. However, I bizarrely have heard offline criticism from people that do not have a conflict of interest and its also interesting that many of the current UK team are actually opting to use different/older/discontinued boards still rather than that board.
Maybe UKRS dropped this in to your quoted post.
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Folks - social media is the WRONG platform for all of that talk..
It's just bitter & twisted and it owns you!
Try and survive without FB and report back ;D
Then we read this.
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Folks - social media is the WRONG platform for all of that talk..
It's just bitter & twisted and it owns you!
Try and survive without FB and report back ;D
Hmm, some deleted comments now. What did I miss ?
And this.
We had nothing to do with the postings. Clarifications might help so others can better understand the context of the statements and questions you and UKRS made. There seems to be a disconnect left to hang.
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All a bit weird.... :o
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Why is the original post being blurred under all this confused conversation. Very off putting for anyone looking to gain insight!
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Threaddrift seems to happen from time to time. Best to just roll with it. Sometimes when you tell people what to do -> they actual do the opposite. Odd - but it does seem to happen. If people want to keep on discussing the original topic they will. Otherwise it goes off into threaddrift oblivion until people get bored or disinterested. Seems that way anyways. Can be off putting - but it is what it is.
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I think there is a lot of Starby/Allstar bashing regardless because you see the dammed things all the time on social media or in every mag. You get sick of it. Plus the price of the carbon is ridiculous....as with some other brands. the more a brand is in your face and the more it's Ambassadors push it in your face the more you turn off.....well I do.
Anti SB - has underlying reasons
I agree - there is an anti SB thing going on. However, I bizarrely have heard offline criticism from people that do not have a conflict of interest and its also interesting that many of the current UK team are actually opting to use different/older/discontinued boards still rather than that board.
Maybe UKRS dropped this in to your quoted post.
That's more likely. I certainly wouldn't have said that (I did say the bit about many of the UK teams opting to use alternative boards to the AS though). By the time I saw the UKRS weird response, the content above it had been deleted (hence why I asked what was then going on as i hadn't seen anything).
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Why is the original post being blurred under all this confused conversation. Very off putting for anyone looking to gain insight!
Agreed.
So in summary, I must get round to testing the JL board and doing some stats on it. I'll add it to my list of boards I must test.
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Why is the original post being blurred under all this confused conversation. Very off putting for anyone looking to gain insight!
Agreed.
So in summary, I must get round to testing the JL board and doing some stats on it. I'll add it to my list of boards I must test.
Think UKRivers was tripping.....nuff said ;D
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I think there is a lot of Starby/Allstar bashing regardless because you see the dammed things all the time on social media or in every mag. You get sick of it. Plus the price of the carbon is ridiculous....as with some other brands. the more a brand is in your face and the more it's Ambassadors push it in your face the more you turn off.....well I do.
Anti SB - has underlying reasons
I agree - there is an anti SB thing going on. However, I bizarrely have heard offline criticism from people that do not have a conflict of interest and its also interesting that many of the current UK team are actually opting to use different/older/discontinued boards still rather than that board.
Maybe UKRS dropped this in to your quoted post.
Oops - does look like a quote error from me.
I'm anti SB because they constantly change thier products which suggests the don't have good r&d or they have planned marketing strategies with only their own interest at heart.
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Look at all the confusion you created UKRS. Bad UKRS. ;D
But I thought you were trippin' too. :)
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They are not alone! Starboard, Fanatic, JP, Naish seem to make radical changes in bottom contours, rails, bow, tail. Methinks it might be marketing driven.
A new common theme seems to be a prone paddle board type nose. If these geniuses really were designing and testing in real world conditions why,did it take forever to figure that out?
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Yeah - it seems brands change up their boards a lot. Just like cars. Gotta tweak here - and gotta tweak there - to entice you to buy the latest and greatest. Spin it good. And buy this new board. Because it really is the lastest and greatest!
But have noticed an incremental build quality standard. As paddlers do not want their ridiculously priced race boards to only last one year like before.
Marketers must be marketers though - as that is how they put food on their table. We seem to be ok with changes -> since we buy low and hold. Also we use all our boards a lot. :)
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What we really need is a review from a middle of the pack paddler who bought their own board, not ambassadors and dealers trotting out marketing spiel.
I bought my own Sidewinder 14x25 and I'm not a ambassador or dealer of Jimmy Lewis.
And I fully agree with the review by Area10.
I started last year with paddling on a SIC Bullet TWC on flat water, bought a used JL Stiletto (14x28, 2014) because the Bullet isn't fast on flat water.
But the Stiletto wasn't fast than assumed and I bought a used Starboard Sprint (14x23, 2015).
In fact the Sprint was slower than the Stiletto, because I did not have the balance skills for this narrow board (yes on flat water it was very fast, but with some very little waves or in races, it meant a lot of swimming for me.
After a race I could test a Sidewinder 14x25 and it was great. Within 10 minutes, I decided to buy this board.
Meanwhile, I did two races with the Sidewinder. 19 km (lost mills) and 10km (Alps Trophy) without swimming :D
Ok, I'm not a fast paddler, because I have no technic and endurance. Drafting is a lucky game and I became slowly if the water isn't flat, buoy turns are a desaster or very slowly. So I was very happy with my average speed of 8.2 km/h and 8.4 km/h. This means there is potential to become faster ;-)
With the Sidewinder I have really fun and no stress and it is faster than the Stiletto. So a perfect choice for me.
I'm 51, 202 lbs and 6'.3".
Today I was able to increase the average speed in a 10km flat water race at 8.6 km / h. Again, the Sidewinder was super good-natured. Therefore, no swimming again :D
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How did you manage the average speed increase Mr Proper?
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Not scientifically. Simply trip distance calculated by time.
I know that conditions like wind, current and so on in the game, but the conditions were quite similar in the last three races.
But yesterday were more buoys and I can't this good, so I would have to be a bit slower. But I was not.
In the last two races I have not drafted, because I had no one found with suitable speed. Because where I tried it, I was slower than alone.
I have mounted my GPS watch on my board so I can see heart rate, distance, average speed and current speed.
@Surfsup: Now I've read the question again and you mean something else;-)
My poor english, sorry;-))
I think it is due to the increasing race experience. In addition, I have practiced in recent weeks sprint starts and generally worked at the paddling technique. And a few balancing exercises were also there.
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Has more people tried the Sidewinder 14 lately? I am interested in the 25" wide version.