Standup Zone Forum

The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: supuk on February 07, 2016, 09:56:46 AM

Title: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 07, 2016, 09:56:46 AM
As of yet I haven't had the chance to get my hands on a foil to try and I could not afford the cost of buying one so I thought I best get on with making something. I have had a little look around the Internet and it seams like a fare few have been made for  kiting so how hard can it be?

The mast I have made by hot wireing a xps core then vac bagging it with carbon the  fuselage is made from a old windsurf mast. I have been experimenting a bit on how to do the foils at the moment I'm going for a laminated ply core which I will then bag in carbon. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 07, 2016, 10:53:49 AM
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Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: 808sup on February 07, 2016, 10:54:58 AM
I will be watching your progression. I've been kiting for years and recently aquired a foil board . I had been thinking ok making my own as well. I have a sheet metal background and thought ... How hard can it be?. Well, after reading others who have made their own I decided to put making one on hold. It looks simple enough but I there are issues to consider. Seems the forces on the mast cause many to flex and break. The fuselage can flex as well. The wings have very different characteristics depending on their size,shape,and relationship to each other. I have often thought of the feasibility of using foils on a downwind board. Good luck and keep the pics.coming.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 07, 2016, 11:18:29 AM
I'm sure there is a lot to learn but only one way to do that in my world. When you see some of the diy builds the kite guys have done they are fairly crude so will have to see. Im not worried about the fuselage that is super stiff the mast i am going to add a little more carbon to, the foil I'm going to go with a flat bottom section i think on the front, i have not decided on the rear yet. the rear foil will have some way to change the incidence but yet to be decided how. If any one has a kite foil i would be keen to see some close up pics as to what foils they are using on the wings. if this works i will definitely try it on a larger board dw!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on February 08, 2016, 07:43:18 AM
Could your CNC machine make the foil shape core in HD foam or plywood or make a set of forms in MDF?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 08, 2016, 09:30:43 AM
Could your CNC machine make the foil shape core in HD foam or plywood or make a set of forms in MDF?

yes quite possibly however my cad skill out side of shape 3d are not there at the moment.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on February 08, 2016, 11:09:58 AM
Charlie, let me know if I can ever work something up (foil to be made from foam). It's be fun to get a file to run remotely for you. Looking forward to seeing the results from this build. -J
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 08, 2016, 01:02:01 PM
Charlie, let me know if I can ever work something up (foil to be made from foam). It's be fun to get a file to run remotely for you. Looking forward to seeing the results from this build. -J

Cheers many thanks i have been trying to find a local course to learn a 3D package but not had any luck finding one yet and Video tutorials done work that well for me. It would be nice to find a program with intergrated cam as I have only played with a few trial ones to do some very basic stuff.  It would defiantly be easier to mold the hole bottom part in one !
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on February 08, 2016, 08:35:34 PM
What kind of files does your CNC run on?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 08, 2016, 11:41:21 PM
the cnc is running on mach3 so i believe it will take quite a few .Tap .Txt .Nc .Ncc are the ones i know of. I normally use .tap
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on February 09, 2016, 10:07:18 AM
Nice work. I don't try to do complex stuff here on Maui, too hard to get materials, too many other things to do, but foils are part of my plan for this summer.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterp on February 09, 2016, 10:34:37 AM
I have often thought of the feasibility of using foils on a downwind board. Good luck and keep the pics.coming.

I'm with you on this one - I would love to explore the possibilities of downwind foiling - it could be dwd nirvana of endless glides. SO I have started trying to learn how to foil with a kite, looks simple enough.....but there are many schoolfees to be paid and living in a place where it either doesn't blow (rarely) or hits min 25knots (mostly) progress is slow.....KEEP US POSTED!!!!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 09, 2016, 06:29:18 PM
Am I crazy to think that a model airplane or glider wing from foam would work? Glass it up and go? I'm pretty sure that'd be the fastest way to play around.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on February 09, 2016, 07:50:06 PM
Not crazy. The RC airplane folks do some fancy stuff with foil templates and hot wires.

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 09, 2016, 11:47:07 PM
I used to do a lot of rc glider stuff which is the only realy thing I'm using to help me guess my way through this. The mast i did like a foam wing using mylars in the cores and vac bagged. The problem with the foam is when it's very thin cores you need a lot of carbon or glass to get the strength so for prototypeing I think the wood will actually be a little better and cheaper to test.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 10, 2016, 06:33:02 PM
I can totally see doing wood for tests. Good call.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 02, 2016, 11:41:57 AM
Got side tracked again and stoped work on this but got inspired again today after seeing a kite foil on the beach so shaped anouther ply foil today after not being happy with the last then being sat night I thought I would do a lazy mans vac bag around it and got it in the warm as the misses is away for the weekend. I'm determined to get this done soon. Just realy have the tail plane to do and make a mold to put the Tuttle box head on the mast which I haven't quite figured just yet
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUP Sports ® on April 02, 2016, 12:50:43 PM
I've seen the pain outweigh the gain with foil kiting...especially, trying to do it with rocks, kelp, and big animals in the water...;-)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 02, 2016, 01:35:14 PM
luckily we don't suffer from any of those round here just big wide open stretch of shingle/sand beaches and a small bit of seaweed in the summer at the most so pretty lucky unfortunately we do suffer from a big lack of ground swell which is where having lots of other toys help.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 03, 2016, 03:57:19 AM
Top sanded and bottom glassed then flipped with plastic film and hot coated at the same time ... Speed build!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on April 03, 2016, 08:37:18 AM
Love the fast flip for prototyping. I need to do that on fins. Did you wait for initial cure to a tacky finish?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 03, 2016, 09:35:35 AM
No flip it when wet it's better to use Mylar than plastic for flat surfaces but didn't plan to originally do it this way which is what I have just done. What I would have been better to do was do the flat bottom first on Mylar and then glass the top after which is what I have just done on the tail. This is a full on garage hack build trying to do it fast as posable and keeping it super simple.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 04, 2016, 05:14:43 AM
Foils done prity much now to make a mould to cast a deep Tuttle on the mast.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 04, 2016, 12:28:09 PM
Gives a bit of a idea it's rather crude and not super prity but hopefully I will learn something from this.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on April 05, 2016, 04:04:00 AM
Is your fuselage a paddle shaft?  I wonder if where you cut into it to mount the strut (mast) if that might be your weakest link (if it did not get beefed up).  I'm just getting started on my kite foil now, but from the reading I've done that is one of the high stress areas, and your wing centre of lift is a fair way ahead of the strut.  Maybe a few more carbon layers on the front of the fuselage?  On a windsurf foil they have to put the wing forward like that if using the standard tuttle box, but on kiteboards where they mount further forward on the board they have the wing close to the strut to reduce the forces on the fuselage at the front of the strut

Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 05, 2016, 04:19:26 AM
The  fuz is actually a old rdm windsurf mast which I have allso beefed up with a second layer of mast around that the mast will defiantly break before the fuz which is leading me to beefing up the mast with a bit more carbon as it has a bit more twist than I would like so will do a few more layers at 45deg. My plan in to install a new deep Tuttle in the boards where ever needed as stock ones will probably not be strong enuff anyway which is why I'm just making a mold to make a few.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on April 05, 2016, 06:04:10 AM
I am very impressed by you, dude.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 05, 2016, 07:00:49 AM
Two extra layers of carbon on the 45 and two of glass per side for a little more strength hopefully it won't snap to quickly
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on April 05, 2016, 09:46:26 AM
Ah, RDM mast that should be beefier than what I thought.  How much carbon do you have on either side of the mast and what fibre orientation?  Mine is going to have about 50 oz per yard of carbon on each side, half unidiretional, half biax, and no plain weave so no fibres along with the chord.  Of course I don't know how stiff it is yet!  From my reading though, hopefully that should be about right.

Are you glassing the wings on directly or is there a way to bolt/screw them on?  It would be good to at least be able to vary the angle of attack on the rear wing.

Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 05, 2016, 10:29:03 AM
I cant remember how much I have used now but there was a good few layers of 200g uni and then a few plain running at 45 deg tbh it is just what ever off cuts I have had lying around I havnt purchased anything for it but some biax probably would be worth it I will see how it is after what I have done is cured.

the plan is to have them bolt down and then have come shims for the rear to change the incidence of the rear, going with what I know from flying I will probably try 2-3 deg I haven't seen any mention of numbers anywhere? 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on April 05, 2016, 07:53:11 PM
I think you can start with the rear at zero, based on my conversation with a guy who's built a few.  Is your front wing going under the fuselage?  That's the most common setup.  My foil is on hold because I might see a few in a few weeks in Hatteras and get some ideas, and my ice just went out and I won't be riding it (swimming a lot) any time soon!  Hatteras is also too shallow in many spots.  On lighter days I'll suppin the ocean side.

Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 06, 2016, 08:19:47 AM
No at the moment for ease of build i put it on top. I will start with zero then and have some shims ready.

If this works at all I will think about a mk2 and maybe make some moulds up for things like the mast and fuz to improve them a little.

I have just popped the mould for the head and just laying up a fin box, this bit is painfully slow to do and yet being so close to finishing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 06, 2016, 11:20:01 PM
Just tested the mast after the extra layers and it is super stiff now in flex and torsion so realy happy and prity sure it won't be snapping any time soon!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on April 06, 2016, 11:29:06 PM
Man, you are getting close. I also love that it's all off cuts and extras. This is a pretty sweet build for a "mock up."

Have you seen DW's foil yet?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 06, 2016, 11:54:20 PM
yea nearly there I started to lay up a fin box yesterday and now just got to figure how to cast the head onto the mast perfectly straight which is probably going to be the hardest part! Yea it is literally all of cuts even the resin was a load that I was given free to test out the mast was a old broken one I was give, its like the scrap heap challenge of foils.

No not seen dw's
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: getcarter on April 07, 2016, 12:47:19 AM
Charlie,

How did you make that Tuttle mould? I want to make one for FCS heads. Made one using vac formed ploy vinyl but was almost too small to get an effective cast from

Cheers

GC
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 07, 2016, 12:57:37 AM
just molded off a standard fin. you will probably find it easier to just cut fcs in as they are small and simple and for the strength you would need to mold the hole fin in one go
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: getcarter on April 07, 2016, 04:52:57 AM
Yeah I know...its just I've got loads of fins that are screw in that I wanted to make adapters for and cutting them out alters the original fin.

GC
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 08, 2016, 12:40:20 PM
Slow progress waiting for stuff to fully cure it's still only 10deg here during the day but Moulded a fin box and pored the head on the mast which I'm hoping is stright all fingers crossed! So with any luck I just need to sort the fixings for the foils and bolt them up and then put a fin box in to a board. I have allso manged to pick up a old freeride windsurf board to stick a extra fin box in to give it a try on which should be interesting
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 09, 2016, 12:20:23 AM
Couldn't wait to crack open the mould this morning! And luckily it worked great for the hack that it is just hope it on fairly stright which it should be.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 09, 2016, 03:59:32 PM
I didn't make my foil. I only made the special board. I used the Horue foil from France.

I decided not to get into blade building yet, due to foil design still being in its infancy.  I was afraid it would turn into an R&D money pit.

We have about 20-30 kiters foiling here. I've see so many wildly different ideas on what the blades should look like. I've also heard from guys who've ridden many of the designs, that some completely blow others out of the water in performance.

My wife foiled today on it for the first time. You can see the photos on my site. SupSURFmachines.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 11, 2016, 12:45:02 AM
dw i noticed you had your fin box fairly well back i assume thats because of the forward sweep of the horue? pics look great i didn't realise your in fl. I'm supposed to be over that way in a june to see faimiy and a mini stag do
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 11, 2016, 04:04:15 AM
dw i noticed you had your fin box fairly well back i assume thats because of the forward sweep of the horue?

Yes, the Horue is designed to work in any production windsurf board as-is.

It's the best approach for any foil company. You can sell more foils if they work in your board. What most others are doing (needing Tuttle in middle of board) is just lazy design work.

Of course, you never really know how well that production board is going to hold up to the loads. You can assume if your production board came with the deep Tuttle box, it was probably built to handle massive fins.

Many modern boards have the Tuttle screws recessed below the deck, making the box too shallow. Older boards, like ProTechs might work.

It was easiest for me to just make a board with deep Tuttle installed super strong.

FYI it looks like Neil Prydes foil will also be plug and play in any stock production board with deep box.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 02, 2016, 08:28:26 AM
Well Kai got there first but he didn't have to make it from scratch! I won't be to far behind, If I had been given one I would have tried it a long time ago! We don't have much in the way of a forcast coming but will get it on the water one way or anouther this week!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: stoneaxe on May 02, 2016, 10:21:57 AM
Looks awesome...nice work
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 02, 2016, 10:33:02 AM
Very, very interesting. Make sure you get some footage of you heading into Shoreham Harbour on that ;)

What is that board you are attaching it to?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 02, 2016, 11:07:00 AM
Yea the harbour could be great in the winter when the tide is two high for it to break. At the moment it's just on a windsurf board I picked up for £25 which I will test it on with ether a sail or behind a cable ski,boat or with a paddle then from there I guess I may need to try and find a race board to chop down or something
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 02, 2016, 07:46:47 PM
Man, you are almost there!

I can't wait for the ride report. I'm curious what it will take to get it in the air.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil fly's
Post by: supuk on May 08, 2016, 09:48:46 AM
Still waiting for wind and waves here so the cable ski was the next best thing to test on. The lagoon is a little on the shallow side and all sorts of ropes holiding the sliders in place so not much room but I got up on the foil first run and every run after that so it defiantly works, I will be put a box in a race board next or maybe building a specific board to try paddleing with it. Fingers crossed the wind swings and we get a few waves soon! Pics to follow
Title: Re: Diy sup foil fly's
Post by: supuk on May 08, 2016, 10:43:58 AM
here you go a garage hack of a foil with zero calculations and all made from scrap and off cuts.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 08, 2016, 11:03:12 AM
Congratulations! That's really great. Well done, looks like huge fun. How difficult would it be to control without the benefit of an overhead tow?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 08, 2016, 11:39:11 AM
Hard to say I think being able to control speed myself may make things a little easier allso having more room would help the cable wasn't doing much other than providing the speed there was very little power needed to get up on the foil
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: 808sup on May 08, 2016, 11:41:02 AM
Windsurf board . That's my plan for my downwind foiling experiment . Still sourcing a suitable board.
Keep up the good work! BTW did you hit one of those ramps? 😉
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 08, 2016, 11:52:07 AM
Yea the windsurf board was only $40 so was the cheapest test subject. I didn't hit the slider but I did hit the ropes holding them down underwater and made for a sudden stop!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: 808sup on May 08, 2016, 12:09:44 PM
Yeah I've noticed that when I fall foiling it is very abrupt.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 08, 2016, 11:39:49 PM
Yea I'm wondering if it need to be quite so high it feels prity darn high when your all the way up and it doesn't feel like there is a in between point I think I'm some were around 900mm-1meter up
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Kaihoe on May 08, 2016, 11:54:20 PM
I'm just blown away at your skill. Hey I know let build some new tech out of stuff I've got lying around. Awesome work
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 09, 2016, 12:38:22 AM
cheers if i could do that all day long i would be a happy person its always  good to make something out of nothing.

The question is now what board to go for? full on race board for maximum paddle speed, a all water semi dw style board a low rocketed dw board or full on dw board!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 09, 2016, 12:51:40 AM
I'd go for something that will "crash well". You don't want a foiled board doing loops in the sky at the end of your leash in 35 knots. Plus you need to be able to get back on it easily and get going. Maybe it will need a wider board than you usually make?

I do wonder whether foil SUP downwinding is going to be possible in the shallow short period stuff we get round here. But you are a pioneer and if anyone can make it work, you can. It really is wonderful that you have just knocked up something in your back garden and got it working first time.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 09, 2016, 01:02:11 AM
im not sure if it will work on the short suff on the harbour runs but it think the worthing or selsey run should be good. We will soon find out! at the moment I'm thinking maybe a 24 or 25 wide all water to give enough stability and enough speed or maybe a low rockerd 12' dw board or scarp that and maybe even try a old school classic round nose surf style board
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 09, 2016, 04:05:20 AM
Yeah you may need to invent an entirely new shape altogether for this. Maybe fairly flat rocker through most of the board but with lots of nose rocker. Kinda like the rocker on the Mk1 Glide 14 or JL Albatross, but maybe with more volume. I dunno... You aren't going to want to come down and plough the nose for sure, and if a steep bump starts to lift your tail, you aren't going to want to be engaging in lots of fancy footwork at that point...hmm... It's gonna require some thought for sure!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil done now for the board!
Post by: supuk on May 09, 2016, 09:39:13 AM
I think this is going to be the plan which is a flat deck version of my 12'6 x 24. allwater design. I cant quite decide on length right now, maybe start of at 12'6 and cut it down from there. It going to be a matter of finding that balance of speed of paddling to get it on the foil as I expect there will be a fair amount of time spent not flying and and reducing swing weight and mass it has to carry.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 09, 2016, 10:29:24 AM
In the ghetto style I though I would use up all the scrap blocks of eps I had kicking around to make a blank so using pu foam glue they are all stuck together before hotwireing to size to machine.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: clay on May 09, 2016, 04:05:49 PM
cheers if i could do that all day long i would be a happy person its always  good to make something out of nothing.

The question is now what board to go for? full on race board for maximum paddle speed, a all water semi dw style board a low rocketed dw board or full on dw board!

Awesome and amazing!  Well done!  I hope you find a way to do this all day long.

I have put down a deposit on the gofoil and I have the same question of what board to use?

Does the foil add stability, in that we can use a narrower really tippy board?

And nose?  A penetrator that minimizes the abruptness of a pearl?  Or a really upturned nose that can't pearl?  Or a bulbous high volume nose that skips/bounces/rebounds when it hits the water?

Appreciate any feedback
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 09, 2016, 11:58:56 PM
It's hard to say as I was only using a windsurf board but I'm prity sure we are going to need something with some width as it causes other problems The way I see it at the moment is the harder part is be going to be geting it on foil so I have gone for speed and stability over prity much everything. If you take a nose dive at 10-15 knots I think it's rather going to send you way out the front or it will bounce back up through surface area. Maybe I will try it on the new 21.5 any way until I get this new one done.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 10, 2016, 12:48:14 PM
Well I have the cnc cutting the blank now and I have allso managed to get a company to send me one of there kite foils to test which apparently is very good at low speeds so will have something for a comparison.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on May 10, 2016, 04:08:36 PM
Looking good Charlie! I like the tinkering and the recycled foam.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: stoneaxe on May 10, 2016, 05:45:22 PM
It's fun watching you hack Charlie. You remind me of my brother.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on May 10, 2016, 09:07:58 PM
You are the R&D master. Charlie's chitty chitty bang bang garage.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: 808sup on May 10, 2016, 09:14:06 PM
I have to agree with stoneaxe. It is fun to see the progress day by day. That cnc machine is amazing. Keep the pics. coming as I can't wait to see it finished and hear how it works.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 11, 2016, 12:46:02 AM
You are the R&D master. Charlie's chitty chitty bang bang garage.

fun thing is the chap that made all the chitty chitty bang bang gizmos (Roland Emett) actually only lived a few doors down the road and my dad actually helped him make some of the props for the original film. There was actually a exhibition of his machines at the local museum recently and my dad and myself had to go down and help look after them while they were on display.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 11, 2016, 06:37:32 AM
Priceless, Charlie. Absolutely priceless. I'm imagining Chitty Chitty Bang Bang up on hydrofoils now...
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: stoneaxe on May 11, 2016, 07:02:18 AM
Very cool connection.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 11, 2016, 01:16:13 PM
Few pics from this eve, chopping in a HD block of xps for the foil box to mount in and cutting back the joints in the eps to allow for final sanding. Having the joints in the eps does not effect the strength of the board and by cutting them back and spackeling over them they are almost invisible. The board is now all spakled and after 24h I will final sand it and start glassing. I have ended up going for 11ft as the final length.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: stoneaxe on May 11, 2016, 05:43:36 PM
What made you decide on 11'?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on May 11, 2016, 06:33:19 PM
Wow...two days from design to spackle. I am impressed and jealous. Nice work Charlie!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 12, 2016, 10:23:19 AM
Still on track! I'm realy keen to get it done by early next week as I will only have a week to test it before a 10 day trip to Florida. Got the bottom glassed this eve, went for a bit of a different layup to keep the nose light and the strength around the foil and still fairly stiff. Will do a full coat later tonight then get on to the deck tomorow eve.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 12, 2016, 03:26:37 PM
Few last bits from today a fill coat on the flat and started to lay up the Tuttle box on the new mould.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Bean on May 12, 2016, 09:07:38 PM
That wide squared off tail looks like it will jump on plane really well.  It reminds me a bit of the tail on my Jav which surfs like a Simmons shape.

I was wondering why Kai's tail has its corners clipped and can only imagine that it's to reduce the effect of drag when the tail dips down.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 13, 2016, 12:23:43 PM
Deck laminated this eve and poped the fin box of the mould, unfortunately my tolerances were a bit tight and I think I may need to ether do anouther or maybe modify it a bit.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 13, 2016, 03:31:52 PM
Where in Florida? I'm in Florida
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 13, 2016, 03:36:26 PM
Where in Florida? I'm in Florida

to start with at my brothers place just north of orlando in wintergarden then heading down the coast for a little road trip towards miami for a kind of small stagdoo with my bro and a few friends
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 13, 2016, 07:34:42 PM
Dude, get over to cocoa beach and see DW. The Zone builders chain will grow another link.

Also, looks like I'll be adding more UK trips soon so expect to have to get in the water with me. I have to ride that foil!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 14, 2016, 04:11:54 AM
Supuk,

You'll be driving past my house when you come to coast. If you want to share knowledge and try my foil call me. 910-297-4567. Dwight.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 14, 2016, 05:28:42 AM
Supuk,

You'll be driving past my house when you come to coast. If you want to share knowledge and try my foil call me. 910-297-4567. Dwight.


sounds great coca is only a hour from the house so will try pop by at some point, been semi tempted to put a box in my surf sup so i can do some practice on the foil behind the boat on the lake.



Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 14, 2016, 05:29:22 AM
Dude, get over to cocoa beach and see DW. The Zone builders chain will grow another link.

Also, looks like I'll be adding more UK trips soon so expect to have to get in the water with me. I have to ride that foil!

always welcome
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 14, 2016, 09:14:52 AM
Finbox chopped in half and re done lucaly it was a nice quick fix, ghetto post cure on the dash board of the van in a black bag. Fill coat sanded and started to install the foil box.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 15, 2016, 05:08:55 AM
Nearly on the final stright! Cheater coat down hot coat deck in a hour hot coat bottome this eve fingers crossed! Realy like the look of this board I think it could end up doing anouther very similar as my go to 12'6
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2016, 06:23:04 AM
A 16ft version might make a nice DW board...
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 15, 2016, 01:34:21 PM
yea it would be interesting to try it larger. It is very similar to the 14' cork board i did for andre.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 16, 2016, 03:09:50 PM
Managed to get it all finished up today but no proper pics, hoping to try it tomorow with any luck! The first foil specific dw board?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 16, 2016, 04:03:16 PM
Well, would you count Kai's board as a DW board? If not (and it didn't much look like one), then surely you have built the world's first (unless someone here knows different). Congratulations - it's pretty tricky to be the first in the world to do anything.
Title: Re: Diy dw sup foil board pics
Post by: supuk on May 17, 2016, 04:15:47 AM
here we go testing later today as and when the wind pics up if not it will be tomorrow in the rain.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: yugi on May 17, 2016, 04:40:12 AM
Nice!

Presuming you just "eyeballed" the foil angles how are you planning to tweak them? Presuming that's where all the tweaking is at.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 17, 2016, 04:45:01 AM
The insadence is all ajustable so will just have a play I used to be a glider pilot so got a fairly good idea of were it need to be.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: getcarter on May 17, 2016, 05:06:23 AM
man i'm dying to see how this turns out?....Charlie do you have some kinda price list for the various things you build?...
GC
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: AndreasBreda on May 17, 2016, 01:31:45 PM
Would love to do a testride on this one. Looks really cool
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 17, 2016, 02:00:16 PM
Had a quick test today it was 15-18knots on shore small chop so I had to paddle stright out. To start with I was standing way to far forward, once I got back I did 3 small hops unfortunately I cracked the top of the mast were it bolts in so it went all very woberly from there on,just trying to re do it now to test again tomorow. So far I'm thinking the mast and fuz need to be a lot stiffer so may need a re build allso need to try think a bit more about the insadence between the foil and the board as to how to have it set up for the best take off. Allso posably wondering about moving the fin box forward more
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Arany on May 18, 2016, 03:33:58 AM
I show your picture  to a friend  of me and he dont live me .I have unidirectional  Carbon and glass that used to build windsurfer mast in the 1980 I wonder if I want to build mast what do I need and on the clan they could give me old rex for trying does it look ok to you.thanks
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on May 18, 2016, 06:31:54 AM
Once you get it flying the incidence will be set by the angle the board assumes, unless you mean the angle of the foils relative to each other. As I recall the front foil is screwed on with four screws. You could shim under the attachment with either a tapered shim or simply washers.

And A10, both Conner and Kai's boards were modified from existing boards by chopping off the tail. This may well be the first purpose built foil board.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2016, 07:14:06 AM
And A10, both Conner and Kai's boards were modified from existing boards by chopping off the tail. This may well be the first purpose built foil board.
Glad to hear it. Supuk is a true innovator. The other day I tried a couple of his 21.5" wide boards on flat water. To my amazement, I could actually balance them - in fact I didn't get wet at all. I was getting some extraordinary speeds - for me at least. In fact, looking at the GPS record, even on his 26" wide heavily rockered DW 14ft board I managed a peak speed of over 9mph, with a sustained burst veering between 7.6 and 7.8mph. No wind, perfectly flat. That would be nothing of course for Connor, but for a plump wobbly old porker like me that's prey darned fast for a DW board in millpond conditions.

He told me that if I knelt down and paddłed his 21.5" wide 14ft flat water board hard, it would go fast. He was right - I got a peak speed of 10.5 mph. If I had the balance skills of a much younger man I'd maybe be getting those sorts of speeds standing up. I actually wouldn't have believed this possible - at least for me.

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 18, 2016, 07:48:40 AM
Charlie, I was thinking the other day that some sort of aluminum channel would be good for a test unit while figuring out the front to back position. It wouldn't likely work for a real working board, but as a test unit it would allow for a lot of tests.

Might not need it, since you can just move your weight but it got me to thinking about new kinds of boxes for this.

I know you'll dial the angle with a little time, I remember earlier you mentioning leaving it so you could tweak the angles.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on May 18, 2016, 08:09:39 AM
Also possibly wondering about moving the fin box forward more
I'm feeling that it's still just too much board. Maybe more deck pad towards the tail. When you're foiling, it seems less board would be easier to control. Once your back down to paddling in the water how little length and volume can you get away with? Maybe width is your friend?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 18, 2016, 08:49:09 AM
First proper go out on the foil today in some micro waves. Things to note when learning to foil
1. It's a bit like paddling with a anchor when it's not flying.
2. It feels pretty darn high when you right out the water.
3. It's  a long way down when you crash
4.when you crash you crash hard and fast!
5. When the foil wants to go one way and you want to go the other the foil always wins!
6. Prepare yourself like your going in to a bull ring and probably won't win.
7. Did I mention the hard crashes!

That said I defiantly felt like I made some progress today  and got some cruzey flights staying fairly low and in semi control. It's defiantly puts you back to being a complete novice.

Got all sorts of thoughts on the direction to go, it would be great to do some more prototypes but bit strapped for time and money with the wedding coming up. One thought is that safety defiantly needs to be considered more I had a few close calls geting high sided and landing face first on the foil lucaly it missed my face, the north kite design seams like a prity sensible idea at least to start with.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2016, 09:43:43 AM
Sounds like someone needs to design a Kevlar suit for foiling... What would the foil do to a standard kiteboarding helmet if it hit it hard?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on May 18, 2016, 09:46:04 AM
I looked at the North kiteboard foil when I was researching foils. It does seem safer in more ways than one.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 18, 2016, 03:44:36 PM
yea i was waring a helmet and impact vest today and i think that is a bare minimum for learning. The north one looks a lot safer just hope if you did fall on it it wouldn't brake it straight away. I think in time dw foils will evolve in to something quite different. It would be great to have a go on one that is a bit more refined so i know what I'm trying to achieve as at the moment i don't know how much is me and how much is the ghetto foil.

i changed the angles of the foil relative to the board as well as the incidence between the front and rear which seamed to help and i may go a little further still.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: JP4 on May 18, 2016, 04:10:31 PM
I ran into Tony Logosz down at the Event Site today as he was rigging up his foil windsurfer. He said he has a foil SUP that he's been experimenting with downwind here in the Gorge. His thought was that it might be a tough go foiling downwind in the Gorge since the swell is much smaller than the ocean, not to mention the weeds. It will be interesting to see how all this develops.
JP

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 18, 2016, 11:50:40 PM
Surffoils over on Sways uses the runner style. I was thinking that that, being lower too, might be good for an experiment. You could also probably mount it with 4 pro box boxes. You'd need a forward canard wing probably but I think it's an idea worth pursuing.

Ok, which of us is gonna start a prototype over here?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 12:27:59 AM
yes it makes a lot of sense after you start learning or should i say crashing . I wondering if putting some dihedral into the wings will help give a bit of stability, i think for sup it should be posable unlike kiting were the board is on a rail a lot more. Im also wondering if i have to much area on the foils and it would help going a little smaller.

so much to think about with it all it would be great to have others having a play and sharing there finding, there is so many thing to try.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blueplanetsurf on May 19, 2016, 12:48:06 AM
We have been practicing foiling behind a jet ski and yes, it is very tricky and you have to learn a whole new sport and muscle memory.  Kai makes it look easy but it is very tricky.  We also had some bad crashes and broke the mast on the foil.  One thing I learned is that your weight needs to be centered right over the front wing of the foil, so it looks like you need to extend your deck pad further back so your back foot is on top of the mast when foiling.  We ordered a hover glide foil from Slingshot to practice on.  You can get 3 different mast lengths so you can slowly work your way up to a longer mast which should be less dangerous and frustrating:
http://www.slingshotsports.com/Foil

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blueplanetsurf on May 19, 2016, 12:50:03 AM
This is a pretty good introduction to foils:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQhIZnHzp1k
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 01:21:33 AM
cheers rob yes i should have put a longer pad on i was finding myself standing one foot on and one foot off. It would be interesting to know if the kite foils are the right sort of size for sup.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on May 19, 2016, 06:07:26 AM
Why two wings on all of these designs?  It seems like one longer wing with no fuselage would simplify, reduce drag and might be plenty stable.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 06:27:36 AM
In aircraft terms a convential main wing and a tail stabiliser is far more efficient than what is called a flying wing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on May 19, 2016, 06:36:38 AM
In aircraft terms a convential main wing and a tail stabiliser is far more efficient than what is called a flying wing.

Is that not design specific though (horizontal stabilizer, directional pilot input, long fuselage requirement)?  It seems like most low power air designs (hang gliders, parafoils, kites) and some planes (Concord, etc) opt for a single wing.  Looking at many current foil designs it appears that a lot (most?) of the drag would come from elements other than mast and a wing (were a single wing to be used).

Of all the sports that foil, we have the lowest power to work with.  No kites, sails, jetski, and relatively little gravity assist.  It seems like reducing drag is a much bigger deal for SUP foils than the other sports.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 07:08:50 AM
Paragliders are extremely unaficient and hangliders are now using tails for stability so they can use a more efficient airfoil. To get the stability from a flying wing you have to have reflex in the foil which is unaficient in its self. One of the main things is to reduce the wetted surface area which is something a flying wing does not do well. Just take a look at the glide ratios between them all.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Beasho on May 19, 2016, 07:23:14 AM
Why two wings on all of these designs?  It seems like one longer wing with no fuselage would simplify, reduce drag and might be plenty stable.

A flying wing is the most efficient design, but they are almost impossible to control. 

Think B2 Bomber, they didn't make it to look cool.  However the older versions were called "wobbly goblin" because until modern computers were introduced they would flutter out of control.  The tail surfaces allow for stability on an otherwise unstable aerodynamic shape.  The high aspect wings on a glider are even more unstable requiring a sh-t load of computer stability or a simple long tail.

From Wikipedia:

A clean flying wing is sometimes presented as theoretically the most aerodynamically efficient (lowest drag) design configuration for a fixed wing aircraft. It also would offer high structural efficiency for a given wing depth, leading to light weight and high fuel efficiency.

Because it lacks conventional stabilizing surfaces and the associated control surfaces, in its purest form the flying wing suffers from the inherent disadvantages of being unstable and difficult to control. These compromises are difficult to reconcile, and efforts to do so can reduce or even negate the expected advantages of the flying wing design, such as reductions in weight and drag. Moreover, solutions may produce a final design that is still too unsafe for certain uses, such as commercial aviation . . . . But maybe computer control on a SUP Foil could be worth a try.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on May 19, 2016, 07:29:29 AM
I wonder.  It seems like in our usage the flow from wing into mast around fuselage into tail wing would create more drag.  Especially with joints and hardware for portability.  Also we have the board (which in the air examples would be the fuselage) and then a second fuselage underwater (or a second mast for a second wing).  All seem relatively draggy.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 07:51:59 AM
like i say wetted surface area is a big factor as well. However i don't think the designs that are used for kiting will be what it stays as. it would be interesting to try something more along the line of the AC boats.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on May 19, 2016, 08:53:35 AM
A bit on the foil control.

https://youtu.be/HzbZ53cSGPE
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 12:36:57 PM
i was actually at a place that builds the foils for the B.A.R teams AC boat a few weeks ago and saw them laying one up along with other things and was also lucky enough to go on the hugo boss boat and get a guided tour around his boat and how it all works, i have never seen so much carbon in my life!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: clay on May 19, 2016, 12:57:02 PM
I spent a lot time building and modifying RC planes for use as camera platforms.  I built a foam flying wing and could not get it to fly straight, I bought someone's pre-built foam wing and still had control issues.  I then tried some wood wings that were longer front to back and could get them to fly but they would quickly become unpredictable after adding some weight. After a dozen or so attempts I gave up on the single wing.  The many dozens of 2 wing planes I used always flew predictably, I overloaded them with batteries and cameras and tall antennas, and no matter how badly I Fraken-hacked them flying them was still relatively predictable and I still had decent control.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on May 19, 2016, 04:39:50 PM
Flying straight might not be a problem with SUP.  The mast is a pretty huge (although to varying degrees) vertical stabilizer that is not present (or to a much lesser degree) in aircraft.  Maybe an even deeper boomerang shape

(http://api.ning.com/files/kV4MbYiv7oSfq1m3cNUoqdmRC7saxjvfoKxEahQrkVbXCLcSJku*IH1ECFDTbJA3kXm9EU1y-SZ4TliSvsbkmxFZpPWy6tEP/1082083750.jpeg)

possibly with a hint of Albert King

(http://campingcar.shumilog.com/files/2012/06/8e62ce3a48a9afca7d646efa029a5ab3.jpg)

...Back to your thread...
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 19, 2016, 07:36:32 PM
UK, I would have loved to see that shop. Not often you get to see 50k (more?) of carbon laying around.

I think the sailing thing might work. If I do one, I'll go that way. Maybe a back W foil with one of the V foils near the nose? I still think the multiple attachment points with fin boxes could be good too, if we can keep them from tearing out. (Set them to the deck in heavy foam?)

More googling.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 11:05:50 PM
Yea a track would be good for a center foil however the flight caracteristics I don't think will be effected to much if you are standing in the right place. I have had a little idea I may try and prototype soon.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: yugi on May 20, 2016, 12:36:58 AM
I was SUPing around the Class C cats at the Worlds last year. The top guys all have foils a la AC, and was thinking exactly that.

The windsurf and kite single mast has the advantage that the rider easily (well, pretty technical actually) adjust foil angles without mechanical devices.

How about AC foils mid-ship (should I say mid-SUP?) then a rear foil which is self adjusted via one of those Moth-like prow wands that totally detect the exact ride the bow has above the water? It may backfire for nosebleed drops in DWs or it may just be the bee’s knees.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 20, 2016, 02:05:41 AM
Flying straight might not be a problem with SUP.  The mast is a pretty huge (although to varying degrees) vertical stabilizer that is not present (or to a much lesser degree) in aircraft.  Maybe an even deeper boomerang shape

(http://api.ning.com/files/kV4MbYiv7oSfq1m3cNUoqdmRC7saxjvfoKxEahQrkVbXCLcSJku*IH1ECFDTbJA3kXm9EU1y-SZ4TliSvsbkmxFZpPWy6tEP/1082083750.jpeg)

possibly with a hint of Albert King

(http://campingcar.shumilog.com/files/2012/06/8e62ce3a48a9afca7d646efa029a5ab3.jpg)

...Back to your thread...

Your right adding sweep to a flying wing does add stability however at the penalty of more drag. Having the mast acting as like the fin of a airplane is all dependant on we're it is positioned relative to the center of lift the further back the more effective it is like a fin on a board unfortunately when they are very near the center of lift like on a flying wing they have to be large to be effective. It's kind of the the hole twin fin v quad, a quad is just like a twin fin but split in to but in doing that they become more effective
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 20, 2016, 02:13:55 AM
I was SUPing around the Class C cats at the Worlds last year. The top guys all have foils a la AC, and was thinking exactly that.

The windsurf and kite single mast has the advantage that the rider easily (well, pretty technical actually) adjust foil angles without mechanical devices.

How about AC foils mid-ship (should I say mid-SUP?) then a rear foil which is self adjusted via one of those Moth-like prow wands that totally detect the exact ride the bow has above the water? It may backfire for nosebleed drops in DWs or it may just be the bee’s knees.

There is no reason I can see  a two or three point setup should react any different to the same weight shifting that is used to trim currently on a single mast set up. The trim want would be interesting however I think that probably only works if you have the secondary control like the moth uses on the rudder to change altitude.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on May 20, 2016, 06:31:04 AM
I thought increasing sweep reduced drag. 

How long is your foil from leading edge front to trailing edge back?  What is the wingspan?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Bean on May 20, 2016, 06:47:53 AM
What is the lift coefficient? ;D
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Chilly on May 20, 2016, 07:41:32 AM
Crash helmet not included. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejbEAtkyefc

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 20, 2016, 07:57:23 AM
It's now about a 30" span and 5" cord on the front wing after its little modification that it's just gone through. I have reduced the area right down and added some dihedral to see if that helps with stability. I have allso been working on a new fuz to test the kite fouls I have. Yet to start on the new 3point design I have brainstormed.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on May 20, 2016, 09:08:04 AM
I better start keeping an eye on my 90" long paddle. These foil sup guys are going to be wanting it. I can actually heat the handle and extend it to about 94".
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 20, 2016, 09:48:59 AM
you don't really need a longer paddle or at least much, once you are up high you don't need to paddle. i have been using my race paddle and it actually works quite well as once you start to rise a little and want to keep the power going your paddle shortens so is like choking down. The one advantage of a long paddle would be the extra stability it would provide when up high.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 20, 2016, 07:01:21 PM
Just took my wife back through this thread and it reminded me to mention how amazing this is, Charlie.

You've made a really complex hydrodynamic device here, from scratch, out of some pics off the net and your brain. Seriously, I hope everyone on here take a minute to appreciate your skills and the fact that you share them here with us.

In a more low tech note, I'm about to start glassing an old long board that I salvaged for a friend. It was his first really good board and I stripped it and have spent weeks on and off spackling and filling it and I've gotten it into decent shape. Notes for those who might do this. Use a router to cut the glass on the rails into strips so you don't pull off much foam.

Second note, never do this. Blanks are cheap. LOL.

We're doing black poly resin and I'm testing some layups this weekend. I'll keep you posted on it.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 21, 2016, 01:21:28 PM
Many thanks in not going to take much credit until it's functioning well. I don't think it's hard to build a foil that does the basics but is quite tricky to get it to work well especially when I have no experiace of foiling to go by.

I have had a bit of a hack around with it today so will see what the changes have done. Anoyingly I don't think there is going to be any sort or swell before I go to try it. I'm allso hatching a plan for two other completely different set up now however they will have to wait till I'm back from Florida
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on May 21, 2016, 07:42:54 PM
It's cool to see how this is progressing.

Here's something just slightly off topic (sorry!).  Speaking of foils, I asked this on the kiteforum and have not got an answer.  Does anyone know much about windsurf foils (DW)?  I don't have much use for a SUP foil unless they work in flat water, but I'm hoping to used the foil I'm building for kiting and windsurfing, since we have a number of days when the kite launching and getting back to shore is a bit of an issue, and windsurfing is less of a problem that way. 

I'm wondering about the lateral loads on the mount to the board on a windfoil.  I had planned to use a plate mount, but am wondering if I should do a tuttle mount, which is maybe not my first choice for a kiteboard.  I was hoping to keep the carbon foil fairly light, but wonder if it needs a tougher mast/strut to take the windsurfing loads.  Even if the old board I'm going to use is less wide and if the straps are not out near the rails, I would assume the typical lateral fin loading when applied with so much more of a moment arm would make for much high stresses on a windfoil.  Does that make sense?

Or, does anyone know of a differnt online source for good info on windfoils??

Thanks,
Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 21, 2016, 11:51:51 PM
you are defiantly going to have a lot more side loading windsurfing, i would maybe think about using a 12mm birch ply as a core and then a lot of carbon over that booth uni and 45deg biax, that will be how i do my next one i think or make a mould and lay them up proper.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on May 25, 2016, 03:06:15 PM
Getting back to a previous discussion on this thread, here is something i saw on kiteforum about the angle of the rear wing.  Might be useful and is not quite what I was told.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTCyag5N_vE

Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 25, 2016, 08:43:13 PM
Dig these foils. Could something like this design work in SUP or do you think you'd need more surface area?

https://quadrofoil.com either way, cool vehicle.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Kaihoe on June 15, 2016, 06:39:57 PM
Dig these foils. Could something like this design work in SUP or do you think you'd need more surface area?

https://quadrofoil.com either way, cool vehicle.

I can see a lot of benefits in this style of foil. It should be a lot more stable for those of use without super freaky balance. Also should be a lot safer during wipeouts.... 

Not sure how you would turn with them though
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on June 16, 2016, 07:04:38 AM
https://youtu.be/ooAAnZIgj8o

That's what I have in mind for a front foil--only much thinner, don't have to lift that much weight. For the back foil I plan to use a T foil on a rudder, probably foot-operated unless I get my ass in gear and do a radio rudder. It could be steered by leaning. Note the flaps on the rear foils. Those are almost certainly steering. Tilting the board against the foils could operate flaps through a relatively simple linkage, but I don't plan to do that. I think rudder steering will be adequate.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUP Sports ® on June 16, 2016, 09:54:44 AM
It's cool to see how this is progressing.

Here's something just slightly off topic (sorry!).  Speaking of foils, I asked this on the kiteforum and have not got an answer.  Does anyone know much about windsurf foils (DW)?  I don't have much use for a SUP foil unless they work in flat water, but I'm hoping to used the foil I'm building for kiting and windsurfing, since we have a number of days when the kite launching and getting back to shore is a bit of an issue, and windsurfing is less of a problem that way. 

I'm wondering about the lateral loads on the mount to the board on a windfoil.  I had planned to use a plate mount, but am wondering if I should do a tuttle mount, which is maybe not my first choice for a kiteboard.  I was hoping to keep the carbon foil fairly light, but wonder if it needs a tougher mast/strut to take the windsurfing loads.  Even if the old board I'm going to use is less wide and if the straps are not out near the rails, I would assume the typical lateral fin loading when applied with so much more of a moment arm would make for much high stresses on a windfoil.  Does that make sense?

Or, does anyone know of a differnt online source for good info on windfoils??

Thanks,
Peter

Aloha Peter,
I have started windfoiling...and, am also converting one of my SUP designs into a windSUP/SUP foil board...
Guys are using a 4 bolt plate attachment for kitefoiling...but, based on everything that I know and experienced, I would only use a deep Tuttle attachment for the sailboard...the loading and stresses on the board and foil is much beyond those that would come from even large high aspect fins on a sailboard...and, there are guys making and using Tuttle and some deep Tuttle attachments on kiteboards and/or converted surfboards...

Don't worry about getting into the straps until you learn to fly the foil...they are both unnecessary, and also potentially dangerous...

There is a lively discussion (64 pages long) on windfoiling/kitefoiling over at the UK Boards Mag forum...

http://forums.boards.mpora.com/showthread.php/74801-Windsurfing-on-a-hydrofoil
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on June 16, 2016, 06:30:04 PM
That's a great link for a big discussion on foils.  The nay-sayers who know everything that's wrong with it and have never done it are classic!

So, a DEEP tuttle you say?  Not even a regular tuttle box?  That's much too deep to fit in any kiteboard I own!  I'll have to post up some pics of the foil I've made soon.  Everything but the board mount and final finishing are done, so I need to make a decision!!

Thanks,
Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUP Sports ® on June 16, 2016, 09:06:49 PM
That's a great link for a big discussion on foils.  The nay-sayers who know everything that's wrong with it and have never done it are classic!

So, a DEEP tuttle you say?  Not even a regular tuttle box?  That's much too deep to fit in any kiteboard I own!  I'll have to post up some pics of the foil I've made soon.  Everything but the board mount and final finishing are done, so I need to make a decision!!

Thanks,
Peter

Aloha Peter,
Yeppers...some truly classic zingers...;-)
I had an oceanography professor once who would say..."an oceanographer who has never been to sea, is like a virgin who has never had sex...they talk about it with enthusiasm...and, ignorance"...;-)

Re: building a foil for both kitefoiling and windfoiling...I'd pick one or the other...if you come up with a design for both...it may be a compromise in mast angle...lift...installation...etc...and, might not be good for either...however, I am starting to work with a guy in Canada who has a pretty good kitefoil that I want to adapt for windfoiling, with a deep Tuttle base config...

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on June 17, 2016, 02:10:01 AM
Wow, we're six months into the concept and there's a One True Way.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on June 17, 2016, 04:38:25 AM
Thanks SUPsports, I think I'll stick with the plate mount, and will also mount it to a old windsurfer kicking around with a mor forward plate mount for some low speed learning behind a boat.  I'll maybe see how this goes and decide if this gets adapted to windsurfing later, when I move on to version 2.0.

That must be Terrie you're talking about??

Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUP Sports ® on June 17, 2016, 08:00:46 AM
Aloha Peter,
Sounds like a plan...plate mount will work to get you off the ground...or, water as it were...sooner than later...;-)
I should mention, another thing about deep Tuttle base, is regular Tuttle foils and fins can be used also...obviously, not vice versa...

Back when I was working with Sean Ordonez on the "Big Red" and "Big Blue" prototypes...which became the first production SUPs on the planet...we routered in a G-10 plate that was threaded for accepting a mast foot...it worked well...seems a similar same technique that was thru-bolted, could be applied...you can see the threaded plates in this image...

Yes, Terrie...I also have a local guy with a CNC making non-carbon kite foils...but, I like the weights on the carbon foils...makes off-water handling with a sail rig, not that big of a thing...
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on June 17, 2016, 05:22:33 PM
I finished a set of calculations for a set of angled foils set near the tip of a 14' board, assuming they have to lift and carry half my weight (240#) plus half of a 30 pound board plus a fudge factor. Either I've screwed up royally or foils don't have to be very big. Good chance it's the first option, but I've checked everything a dozen times. Looks like I could take a big shortcut and build a foil with some high aspect windsurf fins sanded to give them some camber. The airfoil is not going to be optimal, but good enough for a general test. I'm going to give it a go.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUP Sports ® on June 26, 2016, 10:25:33 AM
Many thanks in not going to take much credit until it's functioning well. I don't think it's hard to build a foil that does the basics but is quite tricky to get it to work well especially when I have no experiace of foiling to go by.

I have had a bit of a hack around with it today so will see what the changes have done. Anoyingly I don't think there is going to be any sort or swell before I go to try it. I'm allso hatching a plan for two other completely different set up now however they will have to wait till I'm back from Florida

Good job, Charlie...
Here's another guy that builds his first foil...kinda makes it look easy...also, builds a kite foil board...then takes it out and flys it...trial and error...no calculators...;-)

https://vimeo.com/136474166

My buddy is going to modify one of his carbon kite foils for me...change mast angle and length...bigger wings...deep Tuttle base...etc..."bleeding edge" takes on a whole new meaning...;-)


Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on June 26, 2016, 10:37:18 AM
Okay, that convinced me, straight to carbon for the Geezer foil. Guy has major league skills though. He might not glass like Storm, but he's a lot better than me. All the same--Imua.

I've ordered the divynicell I need to do it right. Kind of wish I'd held off on pulling that trigger. Plywood might be a better bet. Maybe I'll hold the three hundred bucks worth of friggin' foam in reserve and do #1 in plywood and carbon.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUP Sports ® on June 26, 2016, 11:05:55 AM
Yup...good call...plywood and carbon...
A local buddy of mine builds kite foils that way...CNC's the wood foil shapes...

There's a few guys who have cobbled foils together that are outlasting off the shelf foils...;-)

This one was pretty cool...

http://kiter.com.au/Forums/Kitesurfing/General/DIY-hydrofoil-with-rubbish-and-an-angle-grinder?page=1
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on June 26, 2016, 12:17:55 PM
That's hilarious. I've been eyeing my Big Kahuna skateboard as a possible donor. My wife would love it if that were gone. Especially after I mounted the offroad trucks/wheels and the mast base on the nose. She refuses to be around whenever I use it.

I love the tail wing. Just what I was thinking of doing, though I have a couple of windsurfing fins set aside that will need some camber mods to work. Too bad none of the big fins I know of are single sided. I probably should stop being such a pussy and just shape some. I watched Kenny tilton do it beautifully by hand with an angle grinder. All I need is fifty years of experience.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 26, 2016, 04:09:45 PM
A good birch ply is defiantly the best material for prototypes you need very little carbon or glass to get something useable.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on June 28, 2016, 11:26:40 PM
I would think that home laminated cedar would be the best choice for a wing core - light, strong, easily shaped, good with moisture.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on June 29, 2016, 01:58:05 AM
That cedar sounds promising. A 2X6 would let you cut out the a herald out as well and still keep it about a 1/2" thick overall.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Beasho on June 29, 2016, 05:10:37 AM
This one was pretty cool...

http://kiter.com.au/Forums/Kitesurfing/General/DIY-hydrofoil-with-rubbish-and-an-angle-grinder?page=1

Interesting comment to reverse the camber on the rear foil.  Downforce?  I couldn't immediately find reference links on the forum.

"I paid attention to put the flat surface of the fins facing upward - to create some lift downward as they say on http://kitefoil.forumactif.org/."
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 01, 2016, 04:51:12 PM
We absolutely nailed the fitment of the foil on my new carbon Hammer foil board...pretty close tolerance...it ain't rocket science...but, it's kinda sorta freakin' close...;-)

Not many of these have been built in North America...

After a little paint and some detail work...it will be ready for liftoff...ground control to Major Tom...;-)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 01, 2016, 08:26:01 PM
Here's the bottom of my new carbon Hammer foil board in brushed seafoam before the seal coat...gonna be hard to sleep while dreaming of flying this puppy...;-)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 01, 2016, 11:07:39 PM
Was back out yesterday having a little play with the changes I had made. Got a few nice long and low glides
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on July 02, 2016, 06:03:49 AM
Looks awesome, are you riding that downwind, or are you on a swell?  I'm also curious what you did about the stabilizer angle.

My foil (for kiting) is finished enough to ride, but needs some prettying up.  I mounted it to an old Bic Astro Rock I got from my dad, I think it's about 120L.  But I put it forward, for towing behind a boat.  I can start standing and gradually build up speed.  Other than a big crash I took from high up where I landed on the foil and severely bruise my thigh partially crippling myself, I'd say it went well.  I kept doing it but by the time I came ashore I could barely walk!  I had not paid attention to the rear stabilizer angle though, and it was essentially at 0 degrees.  I just re-watched that video I posted on the previous page and think I need about 3 degrees of angle at the rear as a start.  Hopefully I can fix that, heal up and wrap my self in bubble wrap and have another go in a couple days!

Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 02, 2016, 08:37:06 AM
It was kinda 50 50 it was in the harbour in about 20-25knots the waves would have been un-rideable on a surf board catching the way out back. Once you gain a little speed and it starts to unweight you get a huge amount of extra speed and glide.

I have the hole setup rocked forward 2-3deg then the second time I went out I gave the tail 1deg + which helped, I went back to zero after the changes and you can tell it needs that positive angle so will maybe try 2deg next time
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on July 02, 2016, 09:13:24 AM
Oh man, I may have to think about a Tuttle in my next board just in case. That looks so fun man.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 02, 2016, 04:25:59 PM
Deck side done...apply pad & grab handles...ready for liftoff...;-)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 03, 2016, 03:38:58 PM
My new carbon Hammer convertible foil board is finished...bagged and tagged...ready for flight...;-)

http://blog.surfingsports.com/2016/07/foil-board.html
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 03, 2016, 05:43:02 PM
All dressed up and ready to fly...I will prolly Monster Paint, or add EVA pad strips, to areas that may need it, once I have some time on it...there are really four sports going on with it...SUP...SUPfoiling...windSUP...& windfoiling...as close as I've come to designing the ultimate one design...;-)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on July 03, 2016, 06:38:55 PM
Sweet looking ride!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUP Sports ® on July 03, 2016, 07:00:21 PM
Gracias jrandy...
I just added a couple of EVA pad strips to the tail...the pads that I designed for my other boards didn't quite fit this application...so, I kinda cobbled together something functional...but, not necessarily my first choice...it's growing on me...and, I predict even more so...once I install the foil and get it flying...;-)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: clay on July 09, 2016, 04:39:41 PM
Right on!  I look forward to the flight report.  I'm guessing you already have a flight plan, care to share where you plan surf it?

I ask because I have yet to think of a good spot to SUS foil in my area.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 10, 2016, 06:52:02 AM
Been bodging up a lower profile mast today to test some different foils this one is a ply core with carbon and glass.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on July 10, 2016, 07:34:09 AM
Man, you're reading my mind. I've been thinking of making a mast with tail and wing mounts for testing different wings etc.

I'm also thinking of mounting it to a thin plywood sheet that I could tape onto a board at different places like Piros did. Not perfect, but probably a good way to learn a lot about foils and how they work with different boards.

Still just making notes and such but I'm curious about a way to quickly mock things up.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 10, 2016, 10:28:09 AM
I wouldn't worrey about the board to much to start with, just use something that will paddle fairly fast. The  foil adds loads of stability.

I just got this back together and off to test it later, if nothing it should have a lot less drag.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: southwesterly on July 10, 2016, 04:55:10 PM
I ask because I have yet to think of a good spot to SUS foil in my area.

I hear you Clay. There only a few breaks in the kelp the entire length of Pleasure Point.

I'm thinking high tide down at the beaches just south of Moss Landing. It starts to break way outside and backs off at high tide leaving plenty of room to experiment.

Since you'll probably spent a fair amount of time in the water falling off at first, you might want to check https://www.dorsalwatch.com/report/
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on July 10, 2016, 08:03:53 PM
Those are the breaks, when a big swell hits and it's good, but not breaking when the tide is high. Way outside, no one inside because of the big rollers.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 11, 2016, 03:41:10 PM
So these foils were kite foils and I took them out today, for initial testing they do not seam to provide much lift at paddleing speeds, it tock a fairly good size wave to get out the water and it felt even more unstable than my own which doesn't surprise me with the ached tak so I think these are out the window and time to try some other foils.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on July 11, 2016, 09:53:58 PM
They look pretty small, especially the rear foil. I'd guess about 120# of lift at 6mph. That's a total swag, but that's how they look to me. I'm constantly surprised how the calculations come out though. Wings don't have to be very big in water.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 11, 2016, 10:57:44 PM
They look pretty small, especially the rear foil. I'd guess about 120# of lift at 6mph. That's a total swag, but that's how they look to me. I'm constantly surprised how the calculations come out though. Wings don't have to be very big in water.

According to the company I got them off they are fairly large for a kite foil I belive they went smaller still after. I actually ended up cuting mine down to the same size but used a flat bottom foil were as this has a fairly symmetrical foil though so not sure if that needs to change or not as odviosly there is two different pricapals.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 12, 2016, 10:40:23 PM
Here is just one way you can expect to crash

http://youtu.be/-oyBRjT6jTE (http://youtu.be/-oyBRjT6jTE)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on July 12, 2016, 11:11:31 PM
Wow, I guess my initial calculations weren't that far off. Everything keeps looking too small to me, so I raised the weight.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 12, 2016, 11:48:36 PM
the crash was on a fairly steep wave, I think the problem is having something that will lift at slow speeds but then that does not produce to much when you hit a big drop.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 19, 2016, 02:38:51 PM
Again  I havnt had much time to play with this but I have done a few modifications, I have added another few layers each side of uni carbon up the mast to stiffen it up more and have allso made a new thicker front foil. Now with more pictures coming out of the go foil you can see just how thick they have gone.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on September 19, 2016, 03:44:40 PM
That was not a good direction or position to fall with that foil in your landing path .... closer than you want.(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/7913423eb86a79a065514f68ad2144e4.jpg)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 08, 2016, 07:11:26 AM
I have Been thinking about this a little more recently and ways to do faster lighter and more accurate prototypes and after doing a bit of looking around on the net and getting a little inspiration from seeing rc planes being 3D printed i think 3D printing some cores to then vacuum bag could be a good sollution  the only thing is I'm rubbish on cad and don't have a 3d printer yet.  I have said to myself I'm not allowed to buy a printer until i can use a cad program properly so that is going to be my first step while I'm in Australia over the winter. It will alls mean that ideas and designs could get shared around quite easily which should be good for development. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 08, 2016, 03:31:12 PM
this was the video that got me thinking

https://youtu.be/4ybuv2TEYrk (https://youtu.be/4ybuv2TEYrk)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 10, 2016, 03:19:23 AM
Not much good for 3d printing but I thought I would have a play on Shape3D at drawing a basic foil similar to that of the go foil ie with a nice lot of volume inside, I could also cut one out of foam no I suppose to see what it comes out like. If any one else would like the shape3d foil to do a little refining to im happy to share the basic drawing to get you started.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on October 10, 2016, 06:34:18 PM
Yeah a 3D print would be a great way to control the variables too.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: capobeachboy on October 17, 2016, 11:42:09 AM
Am I crazy to think that a model airplane or glider wing from foam would work? Glass it up and go? I'm pretty sure that'd be the fastest way to play around.

I picked up one at Walmart awhile back with this in mind but didn't have the time to get around to it. I'd rather let the pros do the R&D and pick up their cast offs.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 17, 2016, 11:51:05 AM
In principal if you could get the size about right you may not be far off.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 23, 2017, 02:43:12 PM
so I'm slowly learning to draw in fushion360 so I can cut some moulds to build my next foil its a slow process but getting there and should make life easer in the future. Does any one else use fushion on here?

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 23, 2017, 06:24:47 PM
I have a buddy who was learning it.

One note on the printer, I'd offer that paying for a print of that size might be better since most of the cheaper ones are small. I think your foam idea is right on.

I've been considering looking at getting a mast cut out of plywood with a CNC. The idea being that a mast made of two hollowed out plywood pieces glued together and covered in carbon might get us there as far as stiffness, strength and lightness.

Though your mold looks good too. What would you want that made of, would it be printed or CNC?

Seems like the foam for a wing could get you there with the right carbon layup.

Let's try to crowd source a design here. Even if we all pitch in most (none?) of us would commercialize it and you could make them to sell if you wanted. Open Source software has worked like this forever. Use it for free to make your own solution or pay someone to do it for you if you don't have diy skills or want support.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 23, 2017, 09:57:12 PM
I'm going to cnc the moulds, they can be cut from a number of things anything from plywood or mdf to aluminium, they all have there benefits but odiously cost varies.

cncing ply wood and then covering would work but then you mat as well cnc the mold and do away with having to do any surface finishing on the part.

soon as I can figure how to do this fillet I should be good to go with running a test on the mast and then will try and design the rest. It would be great to get some numbers of a original foil to work from. I'm still waiting for my reply from go foil on my order.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on January 23, 2017, 11:25:55 PM
Broaching in a bigger wave is going to be an issue. Most of the foil surfers I see get out in front of the wave and ride the rising swell instead of a critical pocket. A foil that lifts at a bit over paddling speed (5mph) is going to have a substantial foil coefficient unless it has a lot of area. That high coefficient foil is going to be very draggy, and it's going to be speed sensitive.  If it lifts 200 pounds at 5mph it will lift 288 at 6 mph.

The higher the speed you get the lift you need, the more range you have. If a foil lifts 200 pounds at 7 mph it will lift 254 at 8mph.

Making a foil from an RC plane wing is pretty easy. If you can find out what the foil coefficient is of the wing it's fairly easy to calculate how big it needs to be for the weight you want to lift.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 23, 2017, 11:52:33 PM
Broaching in a bigger wave is going to be an issue. Most of the foil surfers I see get out in front of the wave and ride the rising swell instead of a critical pocket. A foil that lifts at a bit over paddling speed (5mph) is going to have a substantial foil coefficient unless it has a lot of area. That high coefficient foil is going to be very draggy, and it's going to be speed sensitive.  If it lifts 200 pounds at 5mph it will lift 288 at 6 mph.

The higher the speed you get the lift you need, the more range you have. If a foil lifts 200 pounds at 7 mph it will lift 254 at 8mph.

Making a foil from an RC plane wing is pretty easy. If you can find out what the foil coefficient is of the wing it's fairly easy to calculate how big it needs to be for the weight you want to lift.

perhaps this is were the trimming wand that the moths have could be used.

I'm not relay one for doing math so most of my stuff is done on the 'that looks about right approach' then build test and refine. I'm happy to play with numbers if you can give me them. The one good thing about fusion is it plots 4 and 5 series naca foils so not to hard to try different sections.

The naish foil has the area and size stamped on it so gives a bit of a idea.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on January 24, 2017, 07:46:16 AM
The wand and related angle of attack mechanism is pretty fussy and fragile. The pumping and pitch changes foil surfers do is to duplicate some of the function, partly changing angle of attack to vary lift momentarily, and partly adding some energy to accelerate.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on January 24, 2017, 08:45:26 AM
flexi foils is what we need! shaped with wash in at the tips for extra lift in the pump, then when your weight comes back on it will flex to have wash out.
this was the idea with my whale tail foil but i may have built it too stiff, stand by for results!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on January 24, 2017, 09:12:16 AM
The geezer foil flexes like crazy. Trust me, that's not a feature. Some flex might be useful, but it adds some random variation in lift and lift vectors to a system that's already marginally stable.

One option that I haven't seen any company explore is laddered foils. It's common in high-speed boats--essentially a biplane wing. When the top foil broaches, the lower foil still provides some lift, which prevents crashing. In the middle of the speed range the lift isn't enough to sustain the top foil out of the water, so the foil settles back. At the upper end of the speed range the upper foil stays out of the water. This has the added effect of increasing the surface area available for lift without increasing span. You could have two high aspect wings, and even stagger them a little to gain some pitch stability. Making the top foil relatively small provides breaching control without huge lift variations. Just enough to settle the foil and extend the useful speed range.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 24, 2017, 01:24:58 PM
I think the hole pumping thing could be really exploited and I intend to try a few ideas when I have a new working model. The wash in and out is a interesting idea but  you do need enuff stiffness for control.

I'm prity sure the curved foils you see on a lot of boats is for self regulating lift. The other one I have seen is called the crazy foil and it has the front foil sitting a lot lower than the rear with the idea that if the rear comes out you still have some lift from the front
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 24, 2017, 09:36:50 PM
Have you guys noticed that surffoils over on Swaylocks has woken up and is discussing his foils again. Pono, he's done flat foils more like you were working on for years now. Did a boogie board that looked crazy fun. Mostly bent aluminum. It's  wild to see that strips of flat metal can lift like that.

Tired foils makes a ton of sense. Even a little wing up above the main one would boost you up.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on January 24, 2017, 10:21:28 PM
anything piercing the surface suffers a drag penalty, especially an adverse pressure inducing foil!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on January 24, 2017, 10:45:14 PM
True, but the stability, self-regulation, and crash-proofing of surface piercing foils is probably worth the penalty. And the mast of a submerged foil is generally faired as a symmetric foil, and has roughly the same drag as one of the foil legs.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 25, 2017, 12:57:51 AM
Have you guys noticed that surffoils over on Swaylocks has woken up and is discussing his foils again. Pono, he's done flat foils more like you were working on for years now. Did a boogie board that looked crazy fun. Mostly bent aluminum. It's  wild to see that strips of flat metal can lift like that.

Tired foils makes a ton of sense. Even a little wing up above the main one would boost you up.

been cheating to him off line for a while about things and about the open ocean stuff he has been experimenting for year on the wave stuff.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 25, 2017, 01:30:06 AM
trying to go about trying to draw the mast molds in a different way
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: dns on January 26, 2017, 08:49:19 AM
It's probably worth noting that every single racing sailboat is using surface piercing foils now. Even the monohulls are going down the same road. The SUP and kitefoil guys are backyard tinkerers compared to the millions that are spent developing and optimizing the AC72 and IMOCA 60.

We should really be copying those curved foils and figuring out how to adapt them to SUP boards rather than following the kitefoil lead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leZEIf3fKB4
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 26, 2017, 02:56:02 PM
it definitely something I'm going to play with when i figure this hole cad thing out and cut moulds easily, i should be able to speak to someone involved in the vendee globe boats about them to get there view.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 26, 2017, 06:44:30 PM
DNS, Pono is ahead on that. Check the Geezer Foil thread. I just don't know how those would surf but for flat and downwind I'll be they are superior.

In a more hollow wave I'm not sure how you'd manage the three or four points of contact.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: dns on January 26, 2017, 09:09:39 PM
You're right, I definitely don't think multiple points of contact is the answer. I was mostly referencing how the curved, surface piercing foils are self regulating with regards to lift. As the foil rises more of the wing is out of the water, reducing lift. re: PonoBill's post.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on January 26, 2017, 10:47:22 PM
don't know much about this but saw it on sailing anarchy... looks interesting.

https://www.facebook.com/SEAir.gravity/?fref=ts
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 27, 2017, 11:29:55 PM
DNS, totally agree. Progressive foils make sense. Don't get Pono started, he'll have a sensor on there and servos to dial the aspect ratio up and down. ;)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: yugi on January 28, 2017, 12:13:50 AM
I think small very tucked in curved (C) lifting foils could be cool up front on a DW board. Not enough to completely lift you, not enough to be a drag, just enough to assist the board to get on a plane. Ideally very shallow V so that they no longer interfere once the board is planing, retaining classic planing and turning feel. Should be pretty stabilising while in the water. Win win.

Just earlier, way earlier, planing by foil assistance. That’s all.

Great foil reference (in french)
   https://foils.wordpress.com/tag/alinghi/
pdf downloadable english translation here
   http://proafile.com/multihull-boats/article/the-foil-alphabet
   
   

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on January 31, 2017, 12:49:59 AM
well its not a sup, and it was behind a boat, but she will fly at 3kts(!) with 75 odd kg onboard! now we just need 30kts to try it out on the sup.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 31, 2017, 10:01:44 PM
cool that's great, just started hand shaping a new front wing to experiment with. Did yours work out nice and stiff?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on February 01, 2017, 07:01:00 AM
yup its mint, no flex in this puppy. super thick is the way to go the lift this thing produces is unreal although 10kts is about as fast as you can go before you really notice the trailing edge separation. heres a couple of vids first one is after about half an hour of riding it and second one is my 85kg brother taking off at 3kts the next day. I weigh less  (75)and was getting up even slower but unfortunately no one got it on film
https://vimeo.com/201975035
https://vimeo.com/201983814
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: clay on February 01, 2017, 12:05:21 PM
Very cool!  I really appreciate seeing the pole cam underview of the board, that's a fresh look and I enjoyed watching.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 01, 2017, 02:20:20 PM
great stuff what angle have you used between front and rear foils?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on February 01, 2017, 06:45:36 PM
I don't have the foil with me but at a guess the main foil would be over 5 but less than 10 degrees, and the stabilizer about 7 at the root washing out to about 2 or even 0 degrees at the tips. There is a lot of room for improving here so I am making a new adjustable stabilizer with more area and a nicer section shape
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 11, 2017, 12:26:08 AM
finally got the cad work done and started cutting the first mdf mould for the mast.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on February 13, 2017, 12:28:10 PM
Looking good! Man that machine would make life easy. Do you set stainless into the Tuttle box for tapping into or just straight into the carbon?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Beasho on February 13, 2017, 02:46:51 PM
heres a couple of vids first one is after about half an hour of riding it and second one is my 85kg brother taking off at 3kts the next day. I weigh less  (75)and was getting up even slower but unfortunately no one got it on film

How much pull is on the rope?  The strain on the rope should be directly proportional to the Life/Drag of the foil.

For example a Lift/Drag ratio of 10:1 would be a relatively low performance Airfoil. This would suggest 85 KG of lift producing 8.5KG of drag or 18.5 lbs of pull on the rope.

Given that 'you' appeared to be using 1 hand this would seem accurate.  (excluding form drag which might still be low at 3 - 8 knots). 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 13, 2017, 08:47:39 PM
Looking good! Man that machine would make life easy. Do you set stainless into the Tuttle box for tapping into or just straight into the carbon?

The moulds will make life easier but getting to that stage is a lot of work. Having a few problems with the machine giving us fault codes at the moment so having to sort that out before carrying on.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 13, 2017, 09:41:47 PM
UK, man I love that you got the CAD done.

Can't wait to see the mold finishing for this one, I've never been around much molding.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on February 14, 2017, 07:33:26 AM
The moulds will make life easier but getting to that stage is a lot of work. Having a few problems with the machine giving us fault codes at the moment so having to sort that out before carrying on.

Out of curiosity, what is it that is a lot of work? ie what is your process? Is it the 3D design or is there something else between the drawing and running it on the mill?

I've fooled around with Sketchup and a local lasercutter shop said they could translate that into something the mill could take orders from, but I have no clue.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on February 14, 2017, 09:28:17 AM


How much pull is on the rope?  The strain on the rope should be directly proportional to the Life/Drag of the foil.

For example a Lift/Drag ratio of 10:1 would be a relatively low performance Airfoil. This would suggest 85 KG of lift producing 8.5KG of drag or 18.5 lbs of pull on the rope.

Given that 'you' appeared to be using 1 hand this would seem accurate.  (excluding form drag which might still be low at 3 - 8 knots).

I'd say more like 10-12kg+ with the new foil, mainly cause it is horrendously unfair on the underside and has a leading edge like a golf ball... i like to structurally test things before getting carried away with finishing  ;) the old thin foil at around 8mm thick had next to no drag on the rope once you got up at maybe 7-8kts, the tow line was slack most of the time even behind a 10ft dinghy with no wake to speak of.
in light of petrol prices here in NZ we are now conducting tests under sail, much better with no prop wash
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 14, 2017, 07:08:54 PM
The moulds will make life easier but getting to that stage is a lot of work. Having a few problems with the machine giving us fault codes at the moment so having to sort that out before carrying on.

Out of curiosity, what is it that is a lot of work? ie what is your process? Is it the 3D design or is there something else between the drawing and running it on the mill?

I've fooled around with Sketchup and a local lasercutter shop said they could translate that into something the mill could take orders from, but I have no clue.

Doing the cad has taken a bit as I'm quite new to it, then machining doesn't always go to plan and it takes over 5 hours to cut just the mast, then there is a fare bit of time involvedvin prepareing the mould then machining cores and then laying up bagging and cooking.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 20, 2017, 02:15:17 PM
Been away in nz for a week but back now and we think we have the problem with the CNC sorted and we managed to get it to Finnish the one side last night with a pritty good Finnish. Just got a few little bugs to work out and then probably do one more test cut and maybe then try anoutger material for the final mould that will need less work to Finnish.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on February 25, 2017, 09:23:17 AM
 new adjustable stabilizer made from the tips of the old main foil for quick adjustment between anhedral and dihedral, angle of incedence, and the foils can also swap over so we can try having the low pressure side on the top to see how that affects things. goes rock solid when the bolt is tightened up so should work ok
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 25, 2017, 10:43:49 PM
nice that should give you some room to play a bit just make sure its nice and stiff. I have played with incidence in the past out on the water just with shims, I think now I'm getting the hang of cad I will just make a few different moulds for the rear foils and just make it so I can change them out quick and easy.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on February 26, 2017, 01:19:54 AM
Container, I did a lot of work on An and Di tips a few years ago.
 With a flat foil the lift drops as the foil rolls L to R, and the loss of lift is quite dramatic Vs the angle. That is at say 5 degrees you lose maybe 10% lift but at 15 degrees you lose maybe 40% .

 An hedral, that is downturning the tip decreases the lift even on a Flat plane so you are wasting area for no lift. As you roll, the An tip returns even less lift. 

Di hedral, or up turning the tips also reduces lift on the flat plane ( as opposed to a completely flat foil) but as the foil rolls, the inside Dihedral tip comes into the horizontal plane and increases lift at the tip.
 So as you turn the inside tip increases in lift and stabilises your turn. That's why most planes have Di hedral wings. Huh ?
 The angle of the Di or An has to suit the roll angle so it's a smooth transition as you turn and the area of the tip is also important. I've used a tapered tip so as you lean into a turn you can feel the lift from the tip, but also get the feeling of the lift fading as the tip tapers so you know where you are based on feedback.
 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 26, 2017, 01:48:01 AM
Been playing around a little more with cad and done a few more test's with different tool paths and adding a few bits to the mould. This one came out good except the step over was 50% to low. Hoping to get the final mast mould cut in the next few days
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on February 26, 2017, 10:01:26 AM
mast looks wicked supuk! do you finish it by hand from that point or is custom wood just shit for machining?
 surffoils i have found there is far less drag with an anhedral main foil, according to my videos there is next to no wave drag compared to the same foils in a dihedral position but like you said the loss in effective area is quite noticeable. these hinged wings are only the stabilizer, its just a short term set up to quickly change position and see the effects it has on the board then i will glue it together once we have found a sweet spot. i have also cut off and swapped over the tips on the main foil as these had 0 toe in and i think were only aiding the tip vortex. hopefully it will be slippery enough for the sup board im starting to get real sick of carbon dust!

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on February 26, 2017, 12:10:03 PM
Container, the finished setup looks sick, I'm only using a single foil with no stab.
I found things end up being a compromise of whats good in a straight line Vs turning but it would be good if there was a perfect setup for everything.
Oh yeah, I found the same about No Toe too.
I would love to be there when you're testing it, that adjustable rig is absolutely amazing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 26, 2017, 07:43:50 PM
Man, I'd almost say keep the adjustable and build one fixed that matches the angle but as I type this, I know how it is when you're finishing something. You couldn't pay me to sand another minute by the time I finish a board. ;)

SupUK, I have a cad expert here in LA that we can hire if you get into anything too weird to finish. I can't wait to see the final molds.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blueplanetsurf on February 27, 2017, 11:07:33 PM
Container, I really like the adjustable angle stabilizer wing and am curious what you find.  The Go Foil stabilizers are angled downwards while most of the kite foils I have seen are angled or curved upward, I wonder how they act differently.

Surffoils, in my experience the Kai Foil, which has downturned tips, creates more lift in turns than when going straight, I'm not sure why but I think the g-forces of the turn increase the speed of the water flowing over the foil and you really have to lean forward into a turn to keep it from coming too high out of the water.  I'm really  curious about your single foil design, can you post a photo of it please?

 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on February 28, 2017, 03:39:44 AM
I'm really  curious about your single foil design, can you post a photo of it please?

Me too!  Delta? 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on February 28, 2017, 11:52:49 AM
Thanks for your interest guys, if you Google 'Surffoils' and look at the Images there's hundreds of pics of my foils and videos.
Single,double, triple foils that are un-stallable, they regulate the amount of lift so it's always stable. Theres no glassing, the components can be swapped in and out to adjust to your skills and the waves.
Depending on the design they cost about $100-$150 to make and they're designed to ride on standard tubing beachwaves, bottom turns , tubes.
 If I had the time I would certainly have a range of my own SURFFOILS on the market.
Questions ?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blueplanetsurf on February 28, 2017, 12:51:46 PM
Thanks surffoil, I googled it and I did find your vimeo channel:
https://vimeo.com/59636016

I guess you have the foils mounted on a body board, so now it makes sense that you were able to learn it without the usual wipeouts from the standing position, haha.

I like the idea of multiple foils to avoid stalling and also the single wing foil.  You said you are now learning to foil on a SUP, are you using the same foils as on the body board?

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on February 28, 2017, 04:14:09 PM
I don't know why it won't embed here, there's no privacy regulation I've done.

The prone foiling gave me the chance to work out how to ride them and what changes to the design made to the riding. I rode thousands of waves on the prone foils since seeing Laird in 06. When you're prone there's no fear of losing balance so I learnt that you can bunny hop on foils, do high speed surface slides by intentionally ventilating the foil.     That the foil design for normal surfing waves has to adjust for the angle down the face towards the beach, the angle down towards the nose and the curve of the wave itself with bigger waves needing a wider, longer foil for stability at high speed.
 I started with the Twin lateral foils like Laird did and tried so many arrangements with NACA profiles and all the carbon, Aluminium ,glass layups, grinding, sanding. Trying to get the right angles front and back,  the distance between, trying An and Di tips becuase it was bogging in the turns and after about 2 years I gave up.
Screw it !
And then I thought surfings a left and right engagement, especially due to the water flow on a wave and  not directly from the front. So I turned the foils to go front to back and it's like night and day.
 Here's a pic of one of the 2009 foils in the Vimeo videos.
 It's very basic from what my foils are now but it shows that you can use a single foil in the surf and have complete control.

3 ply with 1x6 and 1x carbon. Flat plate, no foil, 5 mm thick, so no form drag and it's very light.

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2657_zpsdc6onqco.jpg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2657_zpsdc6onqco.jpg.html)


(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2656_zpsoixbqlmc.jpg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2656_zpsoixbqlmc.jpg.html)


(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2657_zpsdc6onqco.jpg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2657_zpsdc6onqco.jpg.html)

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2662_zpsgvbsyrhw.jpeg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2662_zpsgvbsyrhw.jpeg.html)

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2661_zpszi4mw5qv.jpeg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2661_zpszi4mw5qv.jpeg.html)

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2660_zpspzjknrb3.jpeg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2660_zpspzjknrb3.jpeg.html)




Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on February 28, 2017, 05:38:29 PM
And there's a ton of information on my prone foils on Swaylocks back to about a year before Laird. I got the bug from Terry Hendricks (U.S) who was doing foiling back to the 1980's. And a guy Gilbert Lum from Hawaii. We all built our own boards and foils. But when I saw Laird I had to try shortboard and then SUP foiling.

And there's a lot of surfing forums ( Swaylocks, SurfingWaves, Compsand, RealSurf ) with pics of me and other guys riding my paddle in shortboard hydrofoils in 2013. Just 3 years before Kai did it.

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2664_zpsmcml7sgc.jpeg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2664_zpsmcml7sgc.jpeg.html)

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2665_zpshm10lgrp.jpeg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2665_zpshm10lgrp.jpeg.html)


(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2666_zpsqnawigrm.jpeg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2666_zpsqnawigrm.jpeg.html)



Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 01, 2017, 04:05:48 PM
Man, I'd almost say keep the adjustable and build one fixed that matches the angle but as I type this, I know how it is when you're finishing something. You couldn't pay me to sand another minute by the time I finish a board. ;)

SupUK, I have a cad expert here in LA that we can hire if you get into anything too weird to finish. I can't wait to see the final molds.

Getting there with cad, I get distracted every now and then and start drawing other stuff that I have wanted to do for years but not been able to as I didn't know how! I have also had a few bits to do for the guys at the place were the cnc is as they were not fully up to speed with cad and cam ether, starting to get some good parts coming out of it now just having to spend a bit of time figuring out the machine as its a china job and means a lot of the time things are not always as simple as they should be and there is zero information or manuals and zero backup and support (I'm sure I have come across that problem before, sound familiar ???)

bunch of new router bits turned up today  which is good news so it wont take as long to cut everything out.

I'm using fusion 360 for cad and cam which has been great as there is a huge online network of people willing to help and it uses a cloud so they help side by side.

These are a few of the bits ive been working on this week. the middle one will be a new dust extractor attachment for my cnc back home that I will 3d print.

and that's another thing now I can do cad I can officially allow myself to get a 3d printer when I get back to the uk  along with building a second cnc :)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 02, 2017, 06:45:37 PM
  You said you are now learning to foil on a SUP, are you using the same foils as on the body board?

Yes Robert, they're the same foils. But some things are different. The Distance between board and foil is shorter so Ive lost The Pump but gained lots more control. The shorter mast means the whole setup is lighter and the balance point is closer to my feet and the transition between paddling and flight is quicker.
With a longer mast, sometimes when the foil stalls the mast acts like a lever tipping the board down at an angle into the water, with a shorter mast the angle is less so easier to recover. I'm using masts no longer than 18" and some down to 8" where it's more like Ground Effect Vehicle (GEV) skimming with the board rails coming into action on cutbacks and bottom turns.
 It's inevitable that such a new sport like SUP and shortboard foiling will move quickly from the basics into a more complex and aggressive style. I look at handgliding and how it's developed into those Red Bull Flying Wing Suits and the same with SUP, not long ago they were very chunky beasts but now it's split into ocean, beach, flatwater and foil, ( and probably more) with each discipline having its own exacting designs and functions.
 For me I always foiled in the surf so my designs have progressed in that direction but it's sure that Foil SUPs will diversify and get more refined in design and performance.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: yugi on March 03, 2017, 01:21:57 AM
...
 I'm using masts no longer than 18" and some down to 8" where it's more like Ground Effect Vehicle (GEV) skimming with the board rails coming into action on cutbacks and bottom turns.
 ...

cool!

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 03, 2017, 01:44:17 AM
Thanks for you comment Yugi !
 There's no ( or little) difference if you're 30" or 20" or 10" or 5" off the water. As long as the board is clear, you're foiling at full speed. And the further the vertical distance between foil and board only increases the 'drag balance' between the two. And a shorter mast or struts allow you to surf at any beach/ point/reef wave like regular surfers.
A shorter mast is also safer, which is a big deal. I've never been hit by any of my foils in gee... 13 years of foiling prone and shortboard, but it's because they're 1/2 the length of other foils.
 But after a while I started blurring the lines between foiling and surfing and with the shorter struts there's less dynamic forces so you can replace all that glassed carbon with other materials to make a much quicker and cheaper foil setup.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 03, 2017, 02:33:25 AM
And now you see why I was thrilled to have surffoils join us here. His experience and fresh approach blew me away on sways.

The reduced mast length, and therefore reduced pressure and structural strength needed are key I think to rapid innovation.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on March 03, 2017, 03:17:24 AM
Surfoils. do you have any high res images of your current builds?  Post 'em up. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on March 03, 2017, 03:33:09 AM
Yes. This just got VERY interesting.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 03, 2017, 12:54:49 PM
@Surfcowboy, I did a great online apprenticeship at Swaylocks with so many masters of surfboard design and construction there.
So many tinkerers, tradesmen, experts and innovators on the one forum.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 03, 2017, 03:35:36 PM
@Admin, Ive sent you a PM all about the photos.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 05, 2017, 03:47:06 AM
C'mon guys, I know you've got questions.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on March 05, 2017, 04:02:48 AM
C'mon guys, I know you've got questions.

There has been some good discussion here about single foils and shorter masts.  You can search some of the old foil posts to read some of the suggestions and concerns.  I am stoked that you are working on those.  I get your reluctance to post photos but without them it isn't possible for us to engage your ideas.  The only way to stay ahead is by constantly innovating, not protecting.  It sounds like you have some great ideas but they will never be attributed to you if you don't share them. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 05, 2017, 08:47:29 AM
Surffoils, I'd bet several of us would willing to help discuss writing up docs if you want to publish a little e-book or something. But I understand if you are thinking of commercializing something.

I think there are a lot of ways to get paid, including selling plans, a book, or even kits. I'd like to build my own and I think paying for the info is fair or even selling 3D CNC files so they can be cut out of plywood or whatever. I did this in my own business and now companies pay me to consult on their products.

I'm betting there are some brands who would pay you (and U.K.) to help them make a product out of this. Admin is right, but you also don't have to just give everything away. I think a crowd sourced book could get you started and establish your ideas as your own.

I'd be willing to help write it just to move the art/craft along and I'll bet there's enough talent here on the zone to get you started.

Same to you Charlie, if you need help packaging or documenting stuff, let me know. You guys did a lot of hard work and I'd love to contributor you two getting rewarded a bit.

You have basically written a book over the years, it's really just collecting it and putting it into a format.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 05, 2017, 05:23:42 PM

Thanks for the offer Surfcowboy, I think there's a lot of design to come by having a discussion here, everyone interprets things differently and that's going to good to hear. Maybe we need a new thread on Hydrofoil Design ?

If you had to build a stable design for anything that was all about going forward, but lift wasn't an issue, what would be its longest axis ?



Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 05, 2017, 07:10:05 PM
Man , I'm really a fan of the longer foils myself, but I need to build a bodyboard and get to work.

I think the current foils show about 2 to 2.5 feet, 24 to 30 inches (oh man, are we gonna have to standardize on the metric system here? ;) but Pono and a few of us discussed the geezer foil idea of splitting out the foils over a long down wind board just to make things super easy but obviously that won't work on a wave.

But I do think people are over compensating with the front/rear axis. If you actually look at surfboards on a wave there's not really that much in the water. Skimboard guys have even less so I can see how maybe 18" could work if you were a good rider. If you check the current GoFoil systems on really long boards, you gain some stability just from the pressure of the water moving over the foil. I assume this is the same effect as a low volume Sup with rails under water gaining side to side stability. Add the movement and I'm betting the lift stabilizes the fore/aft even more allowing even less length.

Time to hack up a foamie and start cutting plywood shorter and shorter. ;)


Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 05, 2017, 07:13:57 PM
Surfcowboy, you've got some ideas there that I've been doing, the split foils works really well on waves and they're adjustable. I'll have to stick with the other thread for Foil stuff.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 17, 2017, 02:44:36 AM
Slowly making progress! been doing a lot of messing about with the cnc and had a few problems with it along the way with it but we finally got the first of the proper moulds cut today. I have decided to have two mast options a short mast at 450mm and a long mast at 640mm. There is a deep tuttle for the board side and a standard tuttle for the foil end.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 18, 2017, 01:07:23 AM
Congratulations man, that's solid.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Bean on March 18, 2017, 07:08:05 AM
+1  really nice work UK - it's no wonder Land Rovers are legendary!

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: yugi on March 18, 2017, 08:22:38 AM
Slowly making progress! been doing a lot of messing about with the cnc and had a few problems with it along the way with it but we finally got the first of the proper moulds cut today. I have decided to have two mast options a short mast at 450mm and a long mast at 640mm. There is a deep tuttle for the board side and a standard tuttle for the foil end.

nicely, sukup!

But but but, I thought the answer was 420mm.

You testing locally?
Title: Re: Diy sup foild
Post by: supuk on March 18, 2017, 12:44:11 PM
Not sure quite what you are asking but im still in Australia at the moment, until I get this finished i don't have any thing in terms of foils to test on the water but I am spending a lot of time at the workshop learning and playing with the CNC. I'm looking forward to getting back to the UK and having my CNC at arms reach at all times.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 20, 2017, 03:29:38 AM
Are you in Sydney ?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 20, 2017, 06:14:53 AM
Are you in Sydney ?

no Melbourne, heading up the east cost in a few week though so will probably be passing through at some point
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 20, 2017, 11:09:29 AM
If you're near the city or northern beaches let me know and we can have a chat. My number is 0416804168
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 21, 2017, 05:18:16 PM
Moulds are polished and ready to to lay up for the first test!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PT Woody on March 22, 2017, 02:39:58 AM
Moulds are polished and ready to to lay up for the first test!

Where are you going to test them, Charlie?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 22, 2017, 03:51:37 AM
hopefully out here in Melbourne if I get it done in time if not it will be back in the uk when I head back in about 7 weeks

I couldn't get any uni carbon locally however I did pick up some heavy weight basalt and glass today. I have also been busy waxing the moulds all day today  so they should be ready to lay up tomorrow.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 28, 2017, 07:39:12 PM
first mast out the mould! it was a wet layup thrown in no vac bag ( I don't have any proper system to hand or anything) just as a test so lots of air bubbles ect but it came out relatively good considering. I'm going to try and do a proper one before I leave aus but if not I will take the moulds back to the uk and continue there were I have all the correct tools and materials in the my work shop.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 29, 2017, 12:53:12 AM
Looks briliiant, you must be chuffed at the result ?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 29, 2017, 01:42:18 AM
Yea looking forward to doing a proper one and poping that out.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 29, 2017, 02:16:35 AM
Man that's pretty good for no vac. Great job. Those are going to be clean when you have the right gear.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on March 29, 2017, 01:03:31 PM
Supuk - looks great. Unless you don't want to reveal a secret process, can you tell us you joined the two sides and ended up with precise outer dimensions on the top and bottom ends? What's inside?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 29, 2017, 01:16:55 PM
I have not decided on the final method yet it depends a little on how much material I need inside the mould as to how I do it. I will be doing a number of tests to see what works well. That's the great thing about putting the initial time in to the mould its a lot easier and faster to test layups.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on March 29, 2017, 01:59:56 PM
Do you intend to lay up in both halves, trim each half, then bond together? I've seen that done on youtube with curved catamaran foils. He filled the inside with liquid foam.

Or do you intend to lay up in one piece and clamp the two halves of the mould together? That would be a lot harder but could be done with a precision-milled core and lot of trial and error.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 29, 2017, 03:11:12 PM
like I say it depends how much of the cavity gets filled up with the lay to get something suitably strong. Ether way both skins will be laid up separately and vacuum bagged/autoclaved and then joined so as to get maximum strength. With the adhesives you can get there is no real point in trying to lay it up in one go as it just over complicates it and does not achieve anything better.
 if I need to fill the voild at all I will probably machine a high density core to go inside, if there is not much space the two halfs  it will just get bonded
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 29, 2017, 06:12:12 PM
I've been trying to get the Fiberglass Supply guys to video or Facebook live their sessions where they demo and teach molding and bagging. Seems like a no brained but I've gotten no response. Wish I had the time to fly my butt up there with some gear to make it happen.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 30, 2017, 05:52:32 AM
ill try do some more facebook live vids when I get back home, people seam to love watching the cnc doing its thing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on March 30, 2017, 09:15:20 AM
I want you to host a summer camp in your shop! Sign me up for summer 2018.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 30, 2017, 02:03:09 PM
I want you to host a summer camp in your shop! Sign me up for summer 2018.
i do get asked this quite regularly, if i ever get a bigger workspace i would happily do something.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on March 30, 2017, 09:07:13 PM
I've been trying to get the Fiberglass Supply guys to video or Facebook live their sessions where they demo and teach molding and bagging. Seems like a no brained but I've gotten no response. Wish I had the time to fly my butt up there with some gear to make it happen.

They've done a number of videos, some are kind of lame, some are great. I've been to a few of their demos--again, some are great, some are so-so. the basic challenge is that anything done with resin takes tree hours of set time.

Here's the video and doc page: http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/How_To/how_to.html
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 30, 2017, 10:08:06 PM
Yes it couldn't be like a surfboard course were you glass with UV cure and you can sand 5 mins later and take the board home in two days  but you could learn the techniques
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 31, 2017, 08:14:23 AM
Charlie's right

You'd just need to time it like a cooking show (I've been in Hollywood too long.) build two or three pieces and start an hour apart before the class, then you'd have the start, the middle and the finish to show in 30-45 minutes.

That's why they need a producer. Charlie buzz me before you do them, I'll bet we could help get you some cool stuff set up over there. Technically, I could run the rig via remote now.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on March 31, 2017, 09:56:03 AM
Yes it couldn't be like a surfboard course were you glass with UV cure and you can sand 5 mins later and take the board home in two days  but you could learn the techniques

Not just construction, but your graphics skills, how to build and use a CNC, 3D design.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 21, 2017, 12:08:50 AM
Laid up a new mast today using Basalt fibre which is a first for me. I havnt been able to get a proper vac pump here so used onecof those vac bags you get from Kmart and use a house vac on. It worked OK but not really enough pressure so don't expect the corners will be perfect however back to the UK in two weeks to my workshop where I have all the tools.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 23, 2017, 01:20:34 PM
little update. while I carry on working on my own foil I picked up a takuma foil to have a play with, I will try it on booth the original 10'6 I made and also a nice new little number I have just cut out which is a 7'8 but a little different to the normal board you see foils attached too :)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on May 23, 2017, 07:19:24 PM
Nice foil. I saw one that has a reverseable fuselage which is where design will go to provide flexibility for different riders and conditions. There's some beautiful foils coming out lately.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 30, 2017, 01:27:52 PM
New foil board is getting glasses but think I may keep it under raps till it's done. I have also been working on some install kits to make it a lot easier to install the double boxes into the board. The final ones will probably get made in P.E.T
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: patfly on May 30, 2017, 07:42:06 PM
Supuk, would love some reports on the takuma.
I just picked one up, but will not get to try it till I get to Maui in late June. I am mounting it on a 9x Naish SUP.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 30, 2017, 11:26:53 PM
That kit looks sweet. So the idea is that the spacing is preset, you just route out the big hole and drop it in?

Thinking of doing this, if I do, should I put some reinforcement through to the deck? I was thinking a couple of pieces of HD foam maybe.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 30, 2017, 11:51:03 PM
yet to try the takuma just glassing the new board and have to put some boxes into my old. hopefully next week!

Yes the idea is that you don't have to buy the expensive jig to just route one board out and as you will need to put hd foam in anyway then this will do it all in one go and the spacing and alignment will be perfect between the two. 

I'm still learning about this method of mount, a friend has it in one of his and I don't think he put anything through to the deck and I believe its been fine. I would be tempted to rap a layer of glass around the insert and then a few over the top. The force is spread over a large area so it should be pretty rock solid.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 01, 2017, 10:14:12 PM
Thought I would try using the cnc to route the fin boxes out, worked great! Set the finboxes parallel to the waterline so the have a little fillet around the back but all glasses in now and good for the hot coat next after a little sanding.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on June 02, 2017, 11:11:51 PM
Nice! I wanna see this. I think I'm too paranoid about breaking a chunk out of a board. Im watching you and Pono go first.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blueplanetsurf on June 05, 2017, 09:47:41 AM
New foil board is getting glasses but think I may keep it under raps till it's done. I have also been working on some install kits to make it a lot easier to install the double boxes into the board. The final ones will probably get made in P.E.T
I think this is a great idea, are you planning to sell this?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on June 05, 2017, 07:29:04 PM
I agree, Robert, this box would be gold for any installer.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 07, 2017, 12:50:17 AM
New foil board is getting glasses but think I may keep it under raps till it's done. I have also been working on some install kits to make it a lot easier to install the double boxes into the board. The final ones will probably get made in P.E.T
I think this is a great idea, are you planning to sell this?

Yes I think I will cut a few and see if there is any interest. I have just got a few different types of HD foam to try to see what's going to work best and keep the cost as low as posable.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 07, 2017, 12:52:43 AM
New foil board is nearly there! Love glossy hot coats!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 07, 2017, 01:44:29 PM
well here she is! all done and ready to go. Managed to squeak 20min on her before training this eve. It was my first time on a production foil and first time back on one in 7 months so very much back to square one. First wave I over cooked it and was lunched off the back. It took a while to figure were I needed to be to stop it lifting too soon  but once I got that I could keep it fairly controlled with out fully lifting which was my goal. I Should say I am also only using the 40cm mast at the moment and not the 60. The board felt good, yes a bit more of a roll than a flat bottom board but very stable still with the foil underneath, but paddles nicely and transitions are very smooth. Next time out I will try shifting the foil back in the boxes to see if that helps a little with position.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on June 07, 2017, 01:59:35 PM
Nice. I see my friends who have homemade foils messing around with getting the bolts lined up. I went out and surfed for about 45 minutes, came back in and they were still messing with the bolts and alignment. Not sure what the sharks think of these foils whizzing by them  ::)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 09, 2017, 11:58:38 PM
Had first proper session on it today, first thing I did was move the mast back and it defiantly helped with paddling stright. I opted for the short mast and some micro waves to try and learn the foundations after my experience nearly a year ago and taking some prity heavey crashes. To start with the waves were literally only knee high but perfect for learning to get the board and foil into a wave and keeping it under control without having to worry about shooting out the water. You could feel it lifting and I got a few very small glides but it also allowled me to learn directional control and also how to pump. Later I move up to a different spot with some waves that were a fraction larger and faster and then managed to flying a lot more often all being for not very long as the waves were breaking in very shallow water.
The board seams to be working good, think there are a few things I would like to try different like the rocker and nose kick but size and volume feels good.
I had about 2 hours on it today and I defiantly felt some progress and can't wait to do more and once proficient take it dw.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 12, 2017, 09:44:25 AM
So back out again first thing this morning for the second proper foil session, still exhausted from a big dw run yesterday but this time I lent the new board to a friend and I took out one of my old board I converted.

Night and day difference between the dedicated foil board and the converted surfboard! I think the main difference is in the way you can pump the new board and even with only the 400mm mast you do not have to worry so much about touching the water however with the surfboard as so as the tail touches the water it kill the pump and your done, it was also a lot harder to paddle in to them and the extra glide the hull gives is a big bonus. It feels like with the hull there is less need to go to long on the mast, its crazy how high even the 400mm mast feels!

However that said after a quick warm up something just clicked today and  I was catching 90% of the waves I went for and I was foiling on them as fare as I dared go to the beach and even making a few turn's and kicking out while still flying so very very stoked on how quick it has been to pick up and super excited to go explore other waves and even feel fairly confident to do a dw run on it fairly soon.




Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on June 13, 2017, 07:39:04 PM
This is damn good news man. I think the shorter mast is the jam from what I can see. Great to hear you are getting it dialed. I want to hear about a prone session once you get the standup dialed. I'd be curious what the pop up is like.

If I build one here I'll make a plate and mount it to my wavestorm foamie and go see how hard I can wreck. ;)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 15, 2017, 11:55:45 PM
Back out for a 3rd session last night, it was blowing a good 25knots on shore but had a little sheltered spot that gives a little protection, the waves were still every were though and very bumpy so one second it was there the next second it double up and was gone.

Waves were a bit bigger than previous with some long mellow down ramps but with the on shore wind fairly easy to get on to but had some great rides but also some good crashes

The main thing I learned or rather didn't learn was I need to figure how to slow down! a number of time I would ether be going to fast on the drop to want to take off and even leaning forward it was hard to keep down or I would be up and cruzing across the wave but going so fast I would run out of shoulder or be going so fast it got mega twitchy!

I'm still a firm believer in the short mast, I made a few very heavy landings but was still able to ride them out and pop back up and the crashes I made were I really stuffed it, it was more of just a slight nose dive rather than going fully out the front which felt a lot safer.

In the crappy conditions I had yesterday and possibly for dw I'm starting to feel a paddle somewhere between a standard surf paddle and race length paddle is needed as yesterday when the waves doubled up and you wanted to get over a bump which is fairly easy with the foil my surf paddle was just a bit to short ( I am also on a lot thicker board than my surfboards which does not help)

The last thing I think I noticed last night was the mast angle and I'm starting to figure out the problems if it is not right. when I set the angle on the foil board i think i have gone a bit to far with the shimming of it and it feels when flying that your front foot is a lot lower and you cant get as much pressure on it to control the pitch witch is very important so i will be experimenting a lot more with this and trying to get it more dialled in what would be really great is a adjustable version which i may have to invent!

Ps i tried to get some footage on the camera but that was a big fail and this screen grab was about the best i could salvage.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on June 16, 2017, 09:18:30 PM
Hey man, do you think that a shim out of G10 or glass could allow you to adjust the angle of the mast with a plate mount, or maybe just washers? I'm thinking it'd need to be bigger to relieve the stress but it should be doable.

The paddle thing totally makes sense too.

I gotta say, I think your board design is really right on. Being able to touch and go without nose diving is a major plus. I love that you just completely bailed on traditional surfboard design and went full foil on it.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 22, 2017, 03:27:56 PM
surfing some onshore windblown chop this eve on the takuma foil and short mast. Think it may be time to switch to the longer one soon ish.

sorry just trying to figure how to post the video

https://www.facebook.com/CGCustomPaddleboards/videos/795196523987501/ (https://www.facebook.com/CGCustomPaddleboards/videos/795196523987501/)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on June 22, 2017, 05:08:46 PM
That's impressive, supuk, particularly in the messy dribble we get round these parts. You make it look easy, but how many take-offs do you blow for every one you make?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on June 22, 2017, 07:14:51 PM
Is the leading edge of the foil painted white or is that entrained air I see.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 22, 2017, 07:34:43 PM
That's white paint bill. Catching the wave and geting up is fairly easy, keeping airborne and in trim is the hard part and not poping out is the hard part certainly in the crapy waves and why I'm going to go to the longer mast soon so as to have more room to move
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: clay on June 23, 2017, 07:04:13 AM
Sweet and impressive foiling! Thanks for sharing. I am also impressed that you are able to embed a facebook video on this forum, is that a new feature? Is there a trick or just paste the video url?

surfing some onshore windblown chop this eve on the takuma foil and short mast. Think it may be time to switch to the longer one soon ish.

sorry just trying to figure how to post the video

https://www.facebook.com/CGCustomPaddleboards/videos/795196523987501/ (https://www.facebook.com/CGCustomPaddleboards/videos/795196523987501/)

Sweet and impressive foiling! Thanks for sharing. I am also impressed that you are able to embed a facebook video on this forum, is that a new feature? Is there a trick or just paste the video url?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 23, 2017, 07:07:52 AM
Sweet and impressive foiling! Thanks for sharing. I am also impressed that you are able to embed a facebook video on this forum, is that a new feature? Is there a trick or just paste the video url?

surfing some onshore windblown chop this eve on the takuma foil and short mast. Think it may be time to switch to the longer one soon ish.

sorry just trying to figure how to post the video

https://www.facebook.com/CGCustomPaddleboards/videos/795196523987501/ (https://www.facebook.com/CGCustomPaddleboards/videos/795196523987501/)

Sweet and impressive foiling! Thanks for sharing. I am also impressed that you are able to embed a facebook video on this forum, is that a new feature? Is there a trick or just paste the video url?

Cheers only 4th proper session still a lot more to learn! Just been playing with setup a bit trying different angles and position, slowly geting there!

I just coped the video URL and put the link in using the URL tab
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 27, 2017, 01:48:35 AM
been learning a lot on the takuma foil about what works and what I think could be improved so I think the next step is to build some new wings to go on the mast. The plan is to 3d print them however still waiting patiently for it to arrive. it was supposed to be shipped last week or early this week. its looking like the wing will be have to be split in to 4 parts to get it to fit but that's no real issue.

I have done some re designing and done a modified versions of a clark Y profile which is obviously not designed for water but is a great platform in the air with a that looks about right approach to applying it to the hydrofoil.

I would be really keen to see the profiles used on the go foil and any others to see what they are using front and rear. are they using the same section on the tail in reverse?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 28, 2017, 09:22:57 AM
I had a load of small blocks of foam that were only good for prone boards so thought I would stick two together and do another test board a bit different to the last but still with the big chined rails.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Pierre on June 28, 2017, 09:56:18 AM
I think you can start with the rear at zero, based on my conversation with a guy who's built a few.  Is your front wing going under the fuselage?  That's the most common setup.  My foil is on hold because I might see a few in a few weeks in Hatteras and get some ideas, and my ice just went out and I won't be riding it (swimming a lot) any time soon!  Hatteras is also too shallow in many spots.  On lighter days I'll suppin the ocean side.

Peter
Hello,just tried my DIM home foil today,  amzing but lift is very brutal. understood rear wing/stabilizer is set to downward lift ( flat face/intrado up/extrado down) with angle abt 2° downwards, am I right? did someone tried rear wing with extrado up same as main wing ? in that/any  case which angle? i can reverse rear wing or adjust angle with shims. thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: clay on June 28, 2017, 10:18:25 AM
Wow, I just realized how challenging it sounds to diy a foil.  Learning to foil has been super challenging for me, and the thought of trying make my my own and learn at the same time sounds Herculean.

You guys are legends!   

Super impressed with everyone who is making their own foil.  I look forward to seeing where you take it, and believe it can only grow and improve all of foil surfing.   Thanks!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 28, 2017, 10:23:00 AM
I think you can start with the rear at zero, based on my conversation with a guy who's built a few.  Is your front wing going under the fuselage?  That's the most common setup.  My foil is on hold because I might see a few in a few weeks in Hatteras and get some ideas, and my ice just went out and I won't be riding it (swimming a lot) any time soon!  Hatteras is also too shallow in many spots.  On lighter days I'll suppin the ocean side.

Peter
Hello,just tried my DIM home foil today,  amzing but lift is very brutal. understood rear wing/stabilizer is set to downward lift ( flat face/intrado up/extrado down) with angle abt 2° downwards, am I right? did someone tried rear wing with extrado up same as main wing ? in that/any  case which angle? i can reverse rear wing or adjust angle with shims. thanks in advance.

I would try doing one or the other ether the reversed rear wing or 2deg positive insadance. You are basically doubling up on the correction. If it's your first time foiling the lift can seam brutal at first. Have a read on all the tips and vids out there. The key is learn how to keep the foil down rather than up at first
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on June 28, 2017, 12:07:36 PM
more negative incidence on the back foil= more stable in just about every aspect, even turning.
supuk that wing is sexual, heres how ive been running mine for the last few goes
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPladomi on June 28, 2017, 02:47:42 PM
New foil board is getting glasses but think I may keep it under raps till it's done. I have also been working on some install kits to make it a lot easier to install the double boxes into the board. The final ones will probably get made in P.E.T
I think this is a great idea, are you planning to sell this?

Yes I think I will cut a few and see if there is any interest. I have just got a few different types of HD foam to try to see what's going to work best and keep the cost as low as posable.

I definitely would be interested in at least 2.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 29, 2017, 03:13:40 PM
I will try and cut a few more of the inserts out when I have some more material as I need a bunch to convert my other boards.

Got the new board cut, not all that prity but at the moment it's function over form.I also made myself a little foil kite board last week from a block of scrap foam and with the sup extra wide glass it only used about 3m
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 21, 2017, 01:31:55 AM
Was out for the first time on the new board, still learning lots about what exactly we need in a foil board it has been very interesting trying all these designs and its a lot more complex than most would think. Once again I cant under state how critical the foil positioning is and how much difference it make. The first few waves yesterday on the new board and I was fighting to keep the nose down with soooooo much front foot pressure so I went in and slid the mast back 2cm and added a 2mm shim under the back and the next wave it felt like a different board. Back out today I hope with another modification to try so we shall see how that helps. I have a ton of other ideas to try when I can get a little more time and cash to work on them.

sorry for the shit quality I need to figure how to download and upload them better from my camera to phone to youtube

https://youtu.be/GqoiwRQDzUU (https://youtu.be/GqoiwRQDzUU)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Beasho on July 21, 2017, 03:58:01 AM
more negative incidence on the back foil= more stable in just about every aspect, even turning.

Is there anything else MANMADE that is designed like these "Surf Foils?"

I ask because what we are essentially doing is putting a Traditional Fuselage Based Airplane (less vertical stabilizer) underwater.

Most other Hydrofoil designs rely on the Boat for the fuselage and only extend Struts underwater for the Main Lifting wing and Horizontal Stabilizer.

This leaves us with the Shortest Wheelbase ever attempted.  The only thing more extreme would be a single flying wing, and that might be crazy/interesting/eventually possible . . .

The Short wheelbase allows for the Rocking moment around the 'Pitch' axis that people love to use to continue flying. 

My question is:  Why the Negative incidence on the tail?

I realize it works, empirically, but WHY WHY WHY?

PS: Great Demonstration Video SUPUK.  My comments was sparked by the fact that SUPUK's design CLEARLY WORKS.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Surfside on July 21, 2017, 10:01:06 AM
Hi folks. Great thread! I am concerned with possible injury from the wing tips and saw this video with a box wing. What do you think? BTW....this is some awesome work! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsw6kHklhAA&t=51s
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 21, 2017, 10:05:04 AM
the reversed rear foil is basically working in the same way a airplane uses a positive incidence between the front and rear wings. In a plane adding positive incidence along with changing the centre of gravity makes them more stable in pitch, this is tested with a dive test and making sure the plane slowly pulls out without any input from the pilot. There is no reason you couldn't use a conventional rear foil set up but what it would be like I'm not sure, I'm guessing there is a reason most are like this I will however try flipping the one on my takuma over as it is fairly easy to do. 

Back out on the new board today and this time experimenting with a ventral setup. I think it was a little to small to really tell the difference so I will make myself something a little larger over the weekend to try.

As far as the board goes I'm tempted to take it back into the work shop and add some tail rocker, as I though the wide tail helps get the waves but it does get a bit sticky when you want to pump.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Newps on July 21, 2017, 10:36:23 AM
Hi folks. Great thread! I am concerned with possible injury from the wing tips and saw this video with a box wing. What do you think? BTW....this is some awesome work! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsw6kHklhAA&t=51s

That's an incredible build.  So many trick details incorporated into it.  Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on July 21, 2017, 06:18:03 PM
Got dragged around by Dave Kalama on the GoFoil today--a real eye opener. I need to digest and process all the thoughts running around in my head. I would have had an easier time of it if my boardshorts stayed up. Hard to get your back foot into the strap when you shorts are tieing your feet together.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on July 21, 2017, 06:23:19 PM

My question is:  Why the Negative incidence on the tail?

I realize it works, empirically, but WHY WHY WHY?

PS: Great Demonstration Video SUPUK.  My comments was sparked by the fact that SUPUK's design CLEARLY WORKS.

Negative feedback loop. If you had positive incidence the foil would respond to rear foot pressure by running away--the stabilizer would pull the tail down.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on July 21, 2017, 07:39:48 PM
Windwake, if you've been following most of the guys on this thread who are foiling I think you'll see that the great foil apocalypse of 2017 isn't really happening.

I agree that they seem dangerous but I'm not hearing much and if you're watching the wrecks, it's not looking any more dangerous than a long board fin when your board upends in a close out. I've become way more scared of that than foils. The wing in the water does a pretty good job of being a drag anchor too.

That box foil is cool, but man, what would that cost? Seems crazy hard to build.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 21, 2017, 09:21:17 PM
There are defiantly dangers there but there are ways to minanize them when learning. Specific sup foils are extremely stable compared to kite foils or flat wing style foils like I first built. Learning the basics on a short 400mm mast stops the big and dangerous crashes when learning and there is also lots of info out there now on what to do and what not to do. A year ago when I started ridding my first one when kai video had only just cone out and the go foil was not available was a very different story.

The main thing is still learn how to crash and get away from the foil as soon as it starts to go wrong.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 22, 2017, 04:40:20 AM
Trying adding a little more tail rocker the quick way, cut the glass with the multi tool then hot wire it back.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on July 22, 2017, 08:23:13 AM
That's funny. You'd be a useful person to have in a cheese factory :)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 22, 2017, 10:20:04 AM
So while the board dries I thought I would have a play making a diy foot hook. I have been finding foot position so critical literally a inch off the correct spot and it can throw you all out. Up until now I have been using a tail kick and ridges in the deck pad to guide me on the center line but now also looking for something for the front foot and while I want to stop my foot moving I still want to keep things nice and unristricted. The price of a kite foot hook style strap was something like $80 so thought better to that and 30 mins later with a donor windsurf strap and a strip of Ali and some eva I have a nice little thing to test, just got to get the wife to  sew the end up nice, all for the sum of about $2 of scraps
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 23, 2017, 06:49:53 AM
Quick jobs to do on a wet weekend

Modify tail✅

Adjustable kick pad ✅

Foot hook ✅

Done
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on July 23, 2017, 11:12:31 AM
Very cool, and probably ideal for the application. I like the raised centerline in the kick pad.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 23, 2017, 11:16:40 AM
Very cool, and probably ideal for the application. I like the raised centerline in the kick pad.

The raised center line is the most important stupidly I was in a rush when I did this board and forgot to put it under the main pad but there you go. Having your foot bang on the center every time helps a huge amount!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Surfside on July 24, 2017, 09:26:10 AM
Thanks for the replies and input. Going to start creating a foil and I was going to use an old windsurf fin for the mast and divinycell foam for the core of the forward wing. This will be my third glass related project. 1st was a surf board and then a carbon/innegra SUP...always an adventure. All input is appreciated
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on July 24, 2017, 04:37:07 PM
about to sea trial this horrendously finished, unfair piece of.. foam. made from an old 14' that i never quite finished, 2.7m long, 640mm wide and about 45kg
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on July 24, 2017, 06:14:31 PM
Must be something in the air. the Geezer foil is on the truck, helmet in the back seat, I expect to drag it around tomorrow.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 25, 2017, 02:28:44 PM
Slowly refining things down.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 27, 2017, 06:04:32 AM
Had a really good foil session last night on this setup and got the foot mast, foot pad and foot hock dialed in exactly the right spot no. The front hook is nice it helps with pumping a little but it's also a pain as you can't prone paddle so I have a new idea I'm going to give a go at some point when I have the materials for it.  I'm starting to also wonder with  the thick hull style board perhaps going to a dug out design may be worth lookin in to. There are so many things that need to be tried with this new sport!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on July 27, 2017, 07:26:45 AM
You could hinge it to get it mostly flat, but that would be a pain to build. Alex Aguera's board had a fairly floppy, loose foot strap that I could get my front foot into easily. but once I had my foot deep into the strap my instep tightened it enough to gain some purchase. It didn't trap my foot at all--when I bailed (frequently) my foot popped out with no problem. I could lay on it comfortably.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 27, 2017, 07:51:37 AM
Personally this was more than enough restricted enough I couldn't deal with a full foot strap at the moment at least I find myself moving my feet a lot while taking off and like just being able to slide forward down the center line but it annoying you can't prone I will post back when I have built v2
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on July 27, 2017, 11:26:55 AM
tried downwinding for the first time last night after having not paddled for well over 6 months. thats hard work! flew a couple of times in natural stance for some reason (im usually goofy), i think the foil is too far aft on this board. oh well too late to change it now. supuk this board is a dugout and i reckon its terrible for foiling, i cant explain it but you can definitely notice it, just feels wrong
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 27, 2017, 02:50:57 PM
Good job on giving a dw a go I really must bite the bullet and try one soon. I also need to get some boxes in my 10' er from the start of this thread.

I went out again today and surf a right handed first which felt good then I went and surf a left back side and man that gets exciting! Took a few heavy crashes!

It feels like we are are so many ideas that need to be tried for boards, I get frustrated not knowing exactly how to optermise the design as there are no set rules yet I have ideas for about 10 different boards I want to try that are totally different!

I'm also trying to see if I can get some other foils to test but not had much luck yet.

I'm fully hooked with foiling at the moment it's so cool playing with stuf that so new.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on July 27, 2017, 06:12:30 PM
thats why i never bother with paint, as soon as you have finished something you want to chop it up to make it better. shitty itchy work but damn the results are fun. speaking of, chopped 200mm out of my mast today down to 640mm. we'll see how that goes on a downwinder then she will be in for 2 new wings and maybe a longer fuselage
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 28, 2017, 12:20:21 AM
thats why i never bother with paint, as soon as you have finished something you want to chop it up to make it better. shitty itchy work but damn the results are fun. speaking of, chopped 200mm out of my mast today down to 640mm. we'll see how that goes on a downwinder then she will be in for 2 new wings and maybe a longer fuselage

I find it hard to chop board up and modify them as I have the cnc its so easy just to chop a new one out and flog the old one to at least get the cost of materials back. all the colour I generally use is all pigment I try not to use any paint as your right its a pain in the ass as you have to make sure you scrub it all back before doing anything like modifications or repairs. 640 sound a good length its amazing how quick you get used to the legth of masts though. 600 is far enough to fall from though and I don't think it will mater how long the mast is you will still end up breaching.  It really feels like coming up with a way to stop breaching would take even more of the dangers out of it all.   
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 28, 2017, 07:29:14 AM
Here we go then first 3D printing test! Already want to change the airfoil a bit but will let the print run and use it for testing construction. I'm printing it in 3 sections to get it to fit and avoid support structures
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: clay on July 28, 2017, 11:54:22 AM
Personally this was more than enough restricted enough I couldn't deal with a full foot strap at the moment at least I find myself moving my feet a lot while taking off and like just being able to slide forward down the center line but it annoying you can't prone I will post back when I have built v2

I enjoy seeing your ideas and progress, thanks for sharing the stoke!

Years ago I saw a young man on west Maui with something like velcro on his board and shoes/booties, just enough stick so that when he boosted an air his feet stayed attached to the board.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 28, 2017, 02:28:30 PM
Personally this was more than enough restricted enough I couldn't deal with a full foot strap at the moment at least I find myself moving my feet a lot while taking off and like just being able to slide forward down the center line but it annoying you can't prone I will post back when I have built v2

I enjoy seeing your ideas and progress, thanks for sharing the stoke!

Years ago I saw a young man on west Maui with something like velcro on his board and shoes/booties, just enough stick so that when he boosted an air his feet stayed attached to the board.

I have used the 3m duel lock which its almost permanent, we actually used to use the same stuff on water ski bindings so it really takes some force. you could quite passably use it for the front strap also, I may try on my next board.




This eve I committed and went for the dw, unfortunately it wasn't very productive. Just as we set off the wind started to drop as did the bumps which were small and going in every which way, luckily we set up for a short course so wasn't too bad.  I'm sure it not so bad once you get up and going but it feels like maybe a little more length is needed in the board perhaps to keep things in a straight line and get a little more glide and a reduction in drag wouldn't go a miss. I will keep on trying but will be on the look out for some solid winds to try it in next time.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 28, 2017, 03:03:28 PM
8h in and it's slowly growing, think perhaps I should have done it at a lower resolution and upped the layer height.

If anyone fancies taking a drawing  of the  air foil of ether the naish or go foil I would be very keen to see how it compares to the Takuma and the Clark y I have used.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on July 28, 2017, 03:34:31 PM
What's the chord on that one? Print looks clean!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 28, 2017, 04:04:52 PM
220 mm ish at the moment
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on July 28, 2017, 11:07:17 PM
Since you can now 3D print foil plugs (I assume the printed foils are plugs) how about adding tubercules to the leading edge? I think low speed paddleboard foils are a perfect application for tubercules: Lowish speed, frequent AOA changes, turbulent water. Particulary after seeing the thickness of that Takuma foil.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 29, 2017, 03:56:19 AM
Quite possably I think the Takuma may be thinner than the go foil would like to find out.

First part off the printer and it looks good, feels pritty solid defiantly up to going in a vac bag.

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on July 29, 2017, 04:18:08 AM
Great work !
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on July 29, 2017, 05:04:56 AM
Wow!  Incredible resolution.  Are you maxed out on part size?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 29, 2017, 05:33:52 AM
No can still go up in part size layer height was set at .20 it goes down to .05 but it took 17 hours to print that so won't be going any finner if anything the larger layer height may be better for bonding to the epoxy. The two other sections for the left side are printing now, I'm hoping the will be done before I go to France tomorrow for  10days
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on July 29, 2017, 06:47:42 AM
Cool!  What are the max dimension that printer will put out?  What materials are possible? 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 29, 2017, 06:55:57 AM
Cool!  What are the max dimension that printer will put out?  What materials are possible?

250mm x 210mm x 200mm it take 1.75 filament and extruder goes up to 300deg so there is a huge number to choose from. im just using pla at the moment but have  abs, a 20% carbon fiber one and a flex filaments here I am still to try
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on July 29, 2017, 08:41:10 AM
Very cool, I'm acquiring some Focus 360 skill so I can do the same. My antique hot printer is probably up to the job--I promised myself I wouldn't buy anything new for this until I give that a go. 300 degrees is hot enough for polycarbonate. If you run into strength problems with this one you could give that a go. I've found poly printed parts to have outstanding strength.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 29, 2017, 09:10:42 AM
Very cool, I'm acquiring some Focus 360 skill so I can do the same. My antique hot printer is probably up to the job--I promised myself I wouldn't buy anything new for this until I give that a go. 300 degrees is hot enough for polycarbonate. If you run into strength problems with this one you could give that a go. I've found poly printed parts to have outstanding strength.

The fancy filaments are fairly expensive (well maybe 3 time the price but still probably only $30 to print booth wings so not really all that much) they way I am planning for the first one is to  just use it more as a form to bag the carbon so was not worrying about the strength or the print too much, it is however super strong as is the only way I could see it fail is by it splitting on one of the layers. its going to take a bit of experimenting I think if the printer was able to do it in one bit  or the cad was done in a clever way and printing orientations played with a pure 3d printed wing is doable.

You may as well order a printer bill there is a 7 week wait on them so should arrive just as you have convinced yourself.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 29, 2017, 01:21:15 PM
Few pics from today. Two different spots the one in the harbour can get a bit sketchy and feel quite small as you cover so much ground on the foil and have some fairly solid walls ether side. It was only micro in there today it normally breaks way further out.

Every one likes a good face plant
 http://youtu.be/nRQke2UlLWU (http://youtu.be/nRQke2UlLWU)

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on July 30, 2017, 03:49:58 AM
It almost look likes a massive test tank, what a great place to get a heap of waves to yourself.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 30, 2017, 08:30:22 AM
Finally finnished printing, there was a bit of warping on the second part probably due to the small contact area so probably need to print with a raft or try a different filament that works better for large parts. There was also a problem with the cad for the wingtip so that needs to be looked at along with thining the wall thickness as it's way over built.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on July 30, 2017, 09:33:03 AM
This is exciting.  How heavy is this?  It sure looks like you could eventually modify to do some kind of CAD dovetail slide or similar to connect the sections and then perpendicular carbon dowels.  Print, assemble, ride. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on July 30, 2017, 09:49:38 AM
I assume you printed the wingtip vertically, without supports. If so it's surprising that it came out as well as it did. I've always found that unsupported overhangs misprint someplace, usually near the greatest bend. The plastic slumps a little while it's still hot and the next pass is trying to print on air. That came out extremely well for a first try. I hear (from rod Parmenter) that one of the guys here in the Gorge (Peter Lederer at LP foils--https://www.lpfoils.com/ ) is 3d printing wings. I saw him and his wife and kids at the Sand Bar Cafe yesterday. If I had seen this picture before that I would have grilled him for some technique. His 3d wings look like castings. He might be using a service instead of his own printer. The first one I looked at of his looked like 10 microns or maybe some kind of solvent smoothing. Felt kind of heavy. At that time he was showing his foils at a kite event and had a dozen people asking him questions, so I didn't bug him for any answers to the myriad of questions I had. He's got a very sophisticated shop in Bingen, WA, and Bingen is kind of becoming a serious center for composite tech, so who knows what they used.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 30, 2017, 09:50:50 AM
This is exciting.  How heavy is this?  It sure looks like you could eventually modify to do some kind of CAD dovetail slide or similar to connect the sections and then perpendicular carbon dowels.  Print, assemble, ride.

Sorry I didn't Waigh it and just left for France. Yes with enough cad skills the joints could be quite sophisticated and cool with out complicating the manufacturing. It's tempting to build a second printer that could do each half in one go.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 30, 2017, 10:03:59 AM
I assume you printed the wingtip vertically, without supports. If so it's surprising that it came out as well as it did. I've always found that unsupported overhangs misprint someplace, usually near the greatest bend. The plastic slumps a little while it's still hot and the next pass is trying to print on air. That came out extremely well for a first try. One of the guys here in the Gorge is 3d printing wings. I saw him and his wife and kids at the Sand Bar Cafe yesterday. If I had seen this picture before that I would have grilled him for some technique. His wings look like castings. He might be using a service instead of his own printer. The first one I looked at of his looked like 10 microns or maybe some kind of solvent smoothing.

It was printed in 3 parts vertically so when it got to the tip that was almost orizontal so just the tip had supports. I let the slicer split it in to bits to print. Next time I would try print the first part as large as posable and make the tip as small as posable to reduce the amount of support and reduce print time. The problem is visible in the slicer so the problem is defiantly in the cad, I'm not sure why exactly.

My plan is to glass over the top so not to worries about how smooth it was but maybe it is posable to just print and go. Even at 50microns it would be fine to use as is, if you use abs you can do vapour smoothing with acatone for a shiny surface
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on July 31, 2017, 06:44:54 AM
https://www.facebook.com/PrusaResearch/videos/1208374315899553/
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on July 31, 2017, 06:47:05 AM
You may as well order a printer bill there is a 7 week wait on them so should arrive just as you have convinced yourself.

They almost have me and I don't have anything to build with it...yet. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 31, 2017, 06:54:02 AM
I was very well restrained and held my promise to myself that I would not get one until I could use cad to which I surprisingly held to, I don't encourage this sort of behaviour however. There is so much cool things you can make :)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on July 31, 2017, 07:13:35 AM
I was very well restrained and held my promise to myself that I would not get one until I could use cad to which I surprisingly held to, I don't encourage this sort of behaviour however. There is so much cool things you can make :)

What are you using for software?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 31, 2017, 12:48:45 PM
I was very well restrained and held my promise to myself that I would not get one until I could use cad to which I surprisingly held to, I don't encourage this sort of behaviour however. There is so much cool things you can make :)

What are you using for software?

Fusion360 for cad and slic3r for the print g code which is also free
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on July 31, 2017, 01:30:36 PM
You may as well order a printer bill there is a 7 week wait on them so should arrive just as you have convinced yourself.

They almost have me and I don't have anything to build with it...yet.

If nothing else you can make a chess set. And toys for Carseat, Chloe, and maybe Shannon.

Oh, and by the way, it is Lars. I swear I met this guy fifteen years ago and he looked exactly the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1JeUQM4GSA&feature=em-lss
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on July 31, 2017, 07:20:18 PM
Admin, that's why I started the Fusion360 thread, it's just too fun. But I'm in the same boat, nothing I'd really build just yet and don't need more "stuff" so I'll probably get a small one to learn on and pay to print bigger stuff.

UK, I started a rough version of the Naish Malloy style with more of a delta style and straighter lines. That one would probably print pretty well and the downturned tips could mostly print flat. Should be easy to get into 4 pieces.

I'm just a beginner so I'm struggling to get the compound curve of a foil with anhedral really nice yet but every session I learn new techniques and it's truly fun to learn.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 31, 2017, 11:30:20 PM
Yes it gets a little harder doing the compound stuf you have to draw the outline and the dihedral then turn it into a 3D curve and then use that as a rail. I tried using sweep but that is what I thing have the problems so will have to try lofting again but I was geting problems with that too. I messaged Lars a while ago to see if he could do a video on drawing wings but haven't seen one yet, maybe a few outhers could help persuade him.  I have allso been looking for a thicker foil to use I think the Takuma air foil works out about 14% thick which is quite fat.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on August 02, 2017, 02:35:04 AM
I'll buzz Lars too, I was wondering.

If you search for how to do a bend there's a a tutorial making an eyeglass earpiece that got me started on the dihedral (anhedral?) it's all pretty counter intuitive sometimes but once you learn a technique it leads to another.

Here's a link.

https://youtu.be/hicToIPxYJI
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPladomi on August 02, 2017, 07:29:04 AM
Hey all,

I received my CNC cassettes from supuk yesterday (thanks Charlie!). Finally going to convert my 7'6" JP Surf Slate to foil and also windfoil. I imagine it might need more reinforcement due to the dual use for windfoiling.

I'm not diy so I'll be taking it to a local shaper on Hatteras Island and wanted to have an idea of what people thought regarding installation. I'm asking for thoughts about  1) layup 2) placement. Also any idea on what kind of weight this should add?

Here are the cassettes made from HD foam that have cnc cutouts for Futures oneshot 10.75" longboxes.
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29149.0;attach=84843;image)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on August 02, 2017, 09:21:51 AM
Yeah, I'd get all carried away if I was doing it for windfoil--lots more force possible. It's a very precise piece, so if your pro is good, he shouldn't need fill. So I'd do 4oz or 6oz satin glass on the bias under the insert and under the mast tracks. Sand everything flat and bag on 6oz carbon, probably full width, also on the bias, and 4oz glass any old way just for sanding. But that's me. Satin glass conforms really well and laying it on the bias gives strength in all directions. 90-degree alignment puts minimum strength at 45 degrees, which is where a lot of the force from the sail and foil drag will resolve to.

You could certainly use just a diamond-shaped patch instead of going full width. That has the advantage of not creating two stress risers across the board. If you go full width and you break the board, that's where the break line would be. But you're more likely to rip the foil out than break the board, so I'd opt for full width.

Placement depends on your foil. The aft placement of Windfoils is just because there's already a Tuttle box there. Windfoils are designed to use that, so they have a long fuselage that moves the front foil forward. If you're using a GoFoil just follow their placement directions.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 02, 2017, 12:22:31 PM
Just a note first the insert you pictured was my origanel test in xps and the ones you have are a far higher quality PET foam


I have not yet done a windsurf install but all my paddle board ones I have done I have just put a layer of 6oz under and then the the two layers of 6oz for the lam and a 6oz patch over the top.

I have done them without the glass under and they have been fine but no harm adding a little when installing.

I think the loads when paddleing are generally not going to be super high it more the constant little side to side forces that will be acting when paddleing around.

For windsurfing I'm not to sure, maybe double the glass up around the bottom



Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on August 02, 2017, 01:14:26 PM
Since you can now 3D print foil plugs (I assume the printed foils are plugs) how about adding tubercules to the leading edge? I think low speed paddleboard foils are a perfect application for tubercules: Lowish speed, frequent AOA changes, turbulent water. Particulary after seeing the thickness of that Takuma foil.

had this one hangin round for a while now, maybe its time to try it. I'm skeptical as far as i can see they are only beneficial in post stall operation, in normal pre stall flight they are only drag. not as bad for a whale that weighs 30 tons.. we will soon find out i guess.
its a bit thin at the moment but nothing a few layers of carbon and a bit of bog cant sort out, the big question is what foil section to go with the tubercles, your standard humpback whale fin section is pretty shit
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on August 03, 2017, 09:29:13 AM
I'm skeptical as far as i can see they are only beneficial in post stall operation, in normal pre stall flight they are only drag. 

Its my understanding that they delay stall at high AOA. Or allow for more attached flow at high AOA. Or, as you say, allow for earlier recovery.

your standard humpback whale fin section is pretty shit

And it works for them! ie maybe the foil section doesn't matter so much. Just use what you like. Apart from weeds and difficult construction, I can only see upside for tubercules.

I'm looking forward to the testing results. What else you got that you haven't showed us?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPladomi on August 03, 2017, 11:08:04 AM
Yeah, I'd get all carried away if I was doing it for windfoil--lots more force possible. It's a very precise piece, so if your pro is good, he shouldn't need fill. So I'd do 4oz or 6oz satin glass on the bias under the insert and under the mast tracks. Sand everything flat and bag on 6oz carbon, probably full width, also on the bias, and 4oz glass any old way just for sanding. But that's me. Satin glass conforms really well and laying it on the bias gives strength in all directions. 90-degree alignment puts minimum strength at 45 degrees, which is where a lot of the force from the sail and foil drag will resolve to.

You could certainly use just a diamond-shaped patch instead of going full width. That has the advantage of not creating two stress risers across the board. If you go full width and you break the board, that's where the break line would be. But you're more likely to rip the foil out than break the board, so I'd opt for full width.

Placement depends on your foil. The aft placement of Windfoils is just because there's already a Tuttle box there. Windfoils are designed to use that, so they have a long fuselage that moves the front foil forward. If you're using a GoFoil just follow their placement directions.

Thanks for the suggestions on layup. I've got the Slingshot Foil which has the switch fuselage which allows you to place the wing close to the mast or move it forward. I guess I'll have him install around 20" and I'll have all sorts of adjustability with the tracks and switch fuselage.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPladomi on August 03, 2017, 11:12:25 AM
Just a note first the insert you pictured was my origanel test in xps and the ones you have are a far higher quality PET foam


I have not yet done a windsurf install but all my paddle board ones I have done I have just put a layer of 6oz under and then the the two layers of 6oz for the lam and a 6oz patch over the top.

I have done them without the glass under and they have been fine but no harm adding a little when installing.

I think the loads when paddleing are generally not going to be super high it more the constant little side to side forces that will be acting when paddleing around.

For windsurfing I'm not to sure, maybe double the glass up around the bottom

Thanks for the insight to your layup. Probably should err on the stronger side as long as the weight gain is not too significant.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on August 04, 2017, 08:27:39 PM
mad rush to get it done cause i want to use it right now, did the carbon/bog on both sides at the same time and had a shocker but it turned out ok. needs heaps more work so if it works now it can only get better
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on August 04, 2017, 09:24:36 PM
Ok, container, I have questions. The "bog" what is that, bondo?

Also, are you hand shaping and sanding these? If so, your sculpting skills are on point.

I'm leaving on a 3 week trip and so all I'll be able to do it order parts and design and post here for a bit so post up some info or a build thread. These things are really cool man.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on August 05, 2017, 04:56:34 AM
just micro balloons and epoxy surfcowboy. yup like all my stuff, eyeball/hand job with a grinder and some 40 grit. took it for a paddle today downwind in 20kts with much the same results as my other foil. i'd call that a success at this point! were going to try it behind the boat tomorrow to get some proper results but there was certainly less drag paddling compared to the huge old foil although i think it needs a bit more AoA or a different foil shape on the bottom as i got a few good glides that were pretty fast but the foil wasnt quite 'biting'
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on August 05, 2017, 12:09:53 PM
Inspiring man. Now I just gotta make it through 3 weeks "inland" and get home to some cutting, glassing, and sanding.

By the way, Fiberglass Supply has $15 per yd 6oz 50" carbon. 5 yard minimum but that's half price.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on August 06, 2017, 10:47:30 AM
thats dirt cheap!! carbon is outrageously expensive here in NZ.
went for another downwinder today and achieved flight, the shape on the bottom of the foil definitely needs some attention, its nearly a symmetrical foil right now so you had to be going extremely fast before it would lift but once up its super smooth, stable as in the roll axis and when you slow down instead of stopping and falling straight down as you usually would those bumps maintain the flow and the foil just slowly drops down even if you are practically stopped!
 i also had to re-do the tail foil socket which i must have screwed up cause the foil wouldnt go in low pressure side up which is the way i usually run it so just had to go out and deal with it as it was.

the question now is do i go full cambered foil  i.e big concave on the underside or go convex into concave like this
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 11, 2017, 04:06:27 PM
I'm starting to re draw the foil to print again as I was not happy with the airfoil of the first. I have gone from a 11% clark Y to a 15% thick clark y

what do we think compared to the look of the go foil? to fat?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 12, 2017, 12:38:42 PM
i got a bit curious today to see what the foil on my takuma was so I used the cardboard and bondo method to make a very quick template.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 12, 2017, 12:54:58 PM
I then got impashent as I really wanted to try a modified vershion of the front wing so I thought I would do a quick prototype. First step rap the wing in cellophane, second lay up glass and carbon over the top and put it in the vac bag. I will then use pu pour foam to create a core to shape to which I will then glass over.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on August 12, 2017, 01:30:36 PM
Are you changing the aspect ratio or just the foil cross section ?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 12, 2017, 01:42:34 PM
just the airfoil profile
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on August 12, 2017, 01:51:33 PM
Looks good.
What's you theory about the foil shape ?
You were going for low speed lift , are you doing a thicker foil with more camber/ concave ?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 12, 2017, 02:07:47 PM
I'm not keen on the shape of the leading edge on the takuma so going to have a bit of a play with modifying that mainly
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 13, 2017, 12:52:28 PM
so I  trimmed the laminate and made a jig to hold it straight and true on a table before removing the plug/original foil. I then keyed the inside of the fresh lam and filled with por foam. Let cure and then sanded to the new bottom profile.

After that I made a second jig around the original wing and fuz to which I then used to line up the 3d printed socket that fits the fuz and make sure the incidence as the same. Whilst doing that I gave the foam a coat of bog to help with faring it all in before moving on to glassing. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on August 13, 2017, 01:11:02 PM
Dude, you really are a composites wizard.

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 14, 2017, 01:21:21 PM
Sorry forgot to take pics along the way but got the bottom fared in laid up and in the bag this eve.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on August 14, 2017, 01:46:03 PM
I like the profile--skatewing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 14, 2017, 11:45:39 PM
Out the bag few small areas to fare in then for a hot coat. Hoping to test Thursday when some wind and waves arrive.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on August 15, 2017, 07:57:47 AM
Supuk (and Container too), how do you do your trailing edges? I think I asked before but I couldn't find it in a search. To me they are the most finicky part - delicate if not wrapped/lapped, and it's tough to bend carbon.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on August 15, 2017, 11:39:47 AM
once you have laid up one side of the foil i usually flip it over (doesnt matter which side) and dig a bit of foam out along the trailing edge so the top and bottom laminates can meet and you end up with 10-15mm of solid carbon.

nice work supuk, what have you changed about the leading edge?

edit- thats 10-15mm fore and aft, not thickness
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 15, 2017, 11:58:39 AM
Supuk (and Container too), how do you do your trailing edges? I think I asked before but I couldn't find it in a search. To me they are the most finicky part - delicate if not wrapped/lapped, and it's tough to bend carbon.

Similar to container I lay one side up get it all sanded nice and then trim the core back and fill it with resin and fibers, sand that back and the glass the top. I only wrap around  we're there is a radius the trailing edge just gets left with a little over hang that can be trimmed when cured or part cured.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 15, 2017, 12:01:35 PM
once you have laid up one side of the foil i usually flip it over (doesnt matter which side) and dig a bit of foam out along the trailing edge so the top and bottom laminates can meet and you end up with 10-15mm of solid carbon.

nice work supuk, what have you changed about the leading edge?

edit- thats 10-15mm fore and aft, not thickness


The original leading edge had very little camber bellow the center line so I have filled it right out. I will show a comparison tomorrow when the hot coat is dry and have it sanded
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on August 15, 2017, 11:59:25 PM
once you have laid up one side of the foil i usually flip it over (doesnt matter which side) and dig a bit of foam out along the trailing edge so the top and bottom laminates can meet and you end up with 10-15mm of solid carbon.

edit- thats 10-15mm fore and aft, not thickness

Good idea. The only foils I have made were two layers carbon and one glass in one go over both sides of a hot wired foam core, ie bending around the leading edge. When I trimmed the trailing edges I was left with a 1mm slot with neither surface touching the other. I was able to insert a cedar strip and it became remarkably tough afterward.

However another screw up with this method (which I adapted from a dry lammed daggerboard build): The core was squeezed aft while in the bag so the perfect wrap over the leading edge was ruined. Next time I'll do opposing surfaces separately like you guys do. Scratch that - I'll try some other method and ruin some more carbon! Learn from your mistakes. I've learned alot.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 16, 2017, 12:17:00 AM
the other way you can do it is cut the core at the start then use masking tape as your dam for filler, let dry sand back then glass and wrap the leading edge
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on August 17, 2017, 02:55:54 AM
Can I guess that you're trying to get more lift from less wave by increasing the camber of the foil ?
 The greater the variation of the foil curve the higher it's performance but only in a smaller window of AOA.
 It'll work fine at a certain speed and AOA but lose lift either side of these parameters.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 17, 2017, 03:00:22 AM
no not exactly more trying to change its handling characteristics, testing later today hopefully
 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 17, 2017, 09:37:02 AM
Here it is and back from its first test it is all very positive which slightly surprised me!  The first thing I noticed was the feeling of being on the edge of control the hole time as dropped right back and it now feel that changing height is no big deal and it is a lot less sensitive to over corrections. The second thing is the speed, it is a lot slower that the takuma which may sound odd but the extra drag is quit nice as it doesn't make you shit your pants every time you drop down a slightly larger wave and it means your not always out running or running to the shoulder of the wave the hole time just trying to bleed speed off to stay with it. One sessions odiously doesn't mean much and I found I need to move my front foot hock forward a half inch which means I need some new inserts but I feel its defiantly a good size step forward so happy days! 8)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blueplanetsurf on August 17, 2017, 10:17:27 AM
Interesting.  So the main difference between the original Takuma wing and your prototype is a thicker leading edge?  You did not change the surface area of the wing?

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 17, 2017, 10:20:17 AM
Interesting.  So the main difference between the original Takuma wing and your prototype is a thicker leading edge?  You did not change the surface area of the wing?

Leading edge and bottom profile area is almost the same.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 18, 2017, 01:24:49 PM
sorry the footage was very poor from todays surf the waves were not much better but had a few good rides but a little proof the new wing works
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 18, 2017, 02:06:14 PM
all so trying printing a shim plate that can go on the takuma to change the mast angle. (low quality with low infill just as a test)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 18, 2017, 11:25:00 PM
Here we go printed angle base plate, thinking I may remove the outer edge as it's not really needed. This one is a 3mm rise at the back to bring the nose of the foil up.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jondrums on August 19, 2017, 01:30:25 PM
When I was looking at foils, I felt that the mast-plate attachment method is superior because it could be shimmed for angle.  Too bad the go-foil isn't available with a mast-plate.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 19, 2017, 01:36:31 PM
When I was looking at foils, I felt that the mast-plate attachment method is superior because it could be shimmed for angle.  Too bad the go-foil isn't available with a mast-plate.

yes until a better idea comes along the plate mount is the way forward especially if you bolting up to a board that has not been specifically designed for a particular foil. The adjustment are so small but make a huge difference. I normally take a alen key out with me and some shims and play around most sessions or at least every time I change boards or wings ect.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 20, 2017, 04:16:02 AM
Mk3
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Newps on August 20, 2017, 07:30:55 AM
A very nice solution to adjust your angle of attack.   
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on August 20, 2017, 11:04:02 AM
all so trying printing a shim plate that can go on the takuma to change the mast angle. (low quality with low infill just as a test)

For what purpose? I don't surf so I don't know. It shouldn't matter once you are up so I assume it is to optimize paddling-out or lift-off, ie the attitude of the foils while the board is still in the water.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 20, 2017, 11:22:00 AM
It basically ajusts the amount of pressure you have to put on your front or back foot
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on August 20, 2017, 09:36:23 PM
That's nice man. Really pro touch putting the logo and dimensions in it. Also great when you are trying to remember which one you want.

You are really making a case for the plate mounts for sure.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 25, 2017, 03:56:41 PM
Got a bit of a idea to try something and just wondered does anyone know what grade of cineseium would be being used in the masts and fuz of the foils that are being made or what would be most suitable ?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 26, 2017, 01:13:34 AM
new board with a few mods in the tail from the previous and a bit of a change in rocker
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on August 26, 2017, 06:37:55 AM
UK, you thinking of aluminum? I have a buddy who could help with that selection if so.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2017, 07:35:25 AM
What is cineseium? Do you mean aluminum? Are you considering extrusions or built up? All the aluminum masts I've seen are extrusions, probably 6060 T4. That's the most common extrusion alloy because it extrudes so nicely and it can be solution hardened to T4 state as it comes out of the extrusion die. I saw one that looked to be a 1000 alloy because it was so soft and weak.

I considered doing a built up, because I can do that myself, but shitcanned the idea. I'd either do carbon or buy the mast rather than that. I started to build a carbon mast using a broken Ke Nalu paddle shaft as a core. I might finish that someday.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2017, 10:26:00 AM
I've looked at these guys a few times, seems like an easy way to make a custom mast. The nose idea is very appealing to me, I could add flat or lightly rolled sheet to make any chord I like. Could also be a great base for a hybrid AL/CF mast.

http://www.windknife.com/full-foil/foil-nose

Pretty sure they're a UK company. The nose foil and FF13 are pretty reasonable though I can buy a full mast for about the same price as the FF13. A Slingshot mast in the US is about 90 bucks retail, a four foot FF13 is 80 bucks, nose is 50 bucks. Windknife sells a 250cm version in the UK, but their USA dist doesn't carry it.

Here's an Instructable on assembly into a custom foil size. I'd TIG the thing, but I'm the kind of guy who gets good with a hammer and starts banging on everything. http://www.instructables.com/id/rudder-or-daggerboard/

The nose stuff is 6082 T6 mill finish, the FF13 is 6063 T5 anodized. There's no internal webbing, so the torsional resistance wouldn't be the best. I'd probably add a tube down the middle and tack/glue it in place.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 26, 2017, 02:53:04 PM
sorry for the spelling mistake
 
according to the dictionary


Chinesium

An element not found on the periodic table. A crappy metal or plastic substance made in China in the manufacture of ALL Chinese exports.

The only stuff under the Christmas tree this year is Chinesium crap.

#pot metal#shoddy#poor#cheap#fubar



It was only this morning I was looking at those extrusions. could work for something but probably not for me with the use of the cnc I will probably make myself a new mold relatively soon of a new design I have been working on.

like you say ali masts are very cheap and you can probably just order from any one of the china manufacturers direct for even less.

my plan for a ali boom would require getting the best ali for the job, possibly even titanium if there is enough of a mechanical advantage  with torsion and flex. I will probably end up trying booth. 
It is for a boom that the aluminum interests me
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 26, 2017, 03:01:58 PM
I've looked at these guys a few times, seems like an easy way to make a custom mast. The nose idea is very appealing to me, I could add flat or lightly rolled sheet to make any chord I like. Could also be a great base for a hybrid AL/CF mast.

http://www.windknife.com/full-foil/foil-nose

Pretty sure they're a UK company. The nose foil and FF13 are pretty reasonable though I can buy a full mast for about the same price as the FF13. A Slingshot mast in the US is about 90 bucks retail, a four foot FF13 is 80 bucks, nose is 50 bucks. Windknife sells a 250cm version in the UK, but their USA dist doesn't carry it.

Here's an Instructable on assembly into a custom foil size. I'd TIG the thing, but I'm the kind of guy who gets good with a hammer and starts banging on everything. http://www.instructables.com/id/rudder-or-daggerboard/

The nose stuff is 6082 T6 mill finish, the FF13 is 6063 T5 anodized. There's no internal webbing, so the torsional resistance wouldn't be the best. I'd probably add a tube down the middle and tack/glue it in place.

I cant see what legths those ali secions come in from windknif anywere?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2017, 04:52:29 PM
Just below the pictures on the home page where the prices are. Crap webpage.

Foil Nose [FN]
Nose section only 6082-T6 (mill finish)
60mm wide
Standard Lengths
125cm 1.2kg - £30
250cm 2.4kg - £60
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 27, 2017, 09:41:45 AM
Cheers didn't spot it there. May try some for some other project maybe not for the surf foil though. I like the way you can do all the various things with it. A carbon rear half would be very easy to do.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on August 27, 2017, 01:03:51 PM
Hi Supuk,

How is this setup holding up for you?  I am still thinking about having a waveski builder drop a foil mount into a micro butt-sled for me for some seated double-bladed downwinding. 

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29149.0;attach=87321;image)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 27, 2017, 01:51:46 PM
yes works for me, I have them in all 4 of my foil boards without any problems
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 28, 2017, 11:50:09 AM
its gone completely flat here not a breath of wind or once of swell so took the foil down to play on the system2 the water is only waist deep so it was short mast only and carful not to hit the siders or anchor ropes.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 30, 2017, 12:18:36 PM
In the quest for something with a little less drag I dug out mk1 and chopped the Tuttle head off and started to build up a plate mount. I allso started to do a similar thing to the rear wing as I did the front.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 31, 2017, 05:17:12 AM
Trimmed back the first layup on the new mast head I could quite deside if it was enough so I did a second. I should have made note but I think there should be at least 10-15 layers on there. I also picked up some nice 20mm x 20mm x 1.5mm carbon box section which I ether plan to use for the front or perhaps the hole of the fuz with maybe a little reinforcement internally but I can't quite deside.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 31, 2017, 02:52:38 PM
It's all working out fairly well and coming together quite quick. Sanded and hotcoated the head tonight and chopped the old fuz down and routed it parallel to the head. I have allso printed a adapter to turn the Takuma fitment into the 20x20 fitment.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on August 31, 2017, 07:37:58 PM
Dude, you have really stepped this thing up.

This is getting pretty pro compared to the first plywood prototype.

Is that plate all carbon or is there something under it?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on August 31, 2017, 10:13:20 PM
So what I did for the plate was started with a mix of epoxy and microfibres which I put down to make a level base and to start the fillit then did the layup on top after I sanded it back to what I wanted. That way I didn't have to worry if I moved anything while laying it up which was done all in glass (off cuts)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 02, 2017, 11:44:57 PM
On a bit of a close inspection I found that the mount on the front wing was not suffisiant and the leverage was causing the wing to slowly crack the core, when I was building it I wondered if it was going to do this and thought why not see and find out, I guess I know now. So hopfully a simple bit of surgery and adding a center rib the rest of the way across the wing from the mounting tube should do the trick.

The plate mount is now done, I was not happy with the first hot coat so did a second.

The fuz I still can deside on, the carbon on its own I do not think is strong enough for the front half I ordered some 25mm Ali square rod as stock but can't deside what to do. Try reinforcing the carbon tube maybe with bonding some birch ply in the front half, do the Full thing in Ali, front Ali back carbon but that will be a pain to get the joint right, make a Ali mandrel and rap someone myself in carbon
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 03, 2017, 05:54:28 AM
I have been keen to learn more about the technical side of the foils and how they all compare. I started off by looking at my takuma and putting a few of the basic numbers in to get a visual on what they all look like. Im interested at the moment in were in relation the mast is between the wings so I though I would do a quick comparison to the go foil, The go foil dimensions will not be 100% accurate but it looks like the go foil mast is a good 27 ish mm further back than the takuma. What difference does this make I couldn't exactly say but I am very keen to test and find out!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Piros on September 07, 2017, 01:59:43 AM
Yeah good observation Charlie I have been looking at the same thing. The mast mounts really vary in the different brands . The new Naish Thrust mast is pushed right up to the back of the front wing but the Go foil is set back. I don’t have scientific answers but have done plenty of practical testing. We have found the Naish Thrust more stable in flight compared to the Kai GoFoil and also seems to carve and create more speed in the turns. The Kai Gofoil will still do the same but the sweet spot is much smaller. We have logged top speeds in excess of 30 mph on both foils free surfing on waves so lets leave front wing design out of it at the moment. (both rear wings are fairly similar)

Does moving the mast forward closer to the wing help with stability and control ? The Kai Gofoil does seem to pump a bit easier than the Naish Thrust , is that also from mast position back helping with leverage ? Getting back to the front wings they are very different , very hard to tell where the benefit comes from. I own both these foils and rate them highly. No answers I know but just sharing my time on the foil.

Where you see a massive difference in mast position on the fuselage is on the Naish wind foils and Slingshot wind foils compared to their surf foils. They are way back and so are the mast mounts to the boards. On windsurf foils the rear wing is way past the back of the board compared to a surf foils. This may be a good starting point to understand mast mounts on the fuselage as these guys have been at it a long time. Obviously the mast are back on the board because of wind power but the science of pushing the mast back on the fuselage to compensate will relate in some form to a Sup surf foil mast mount position on the fuselage.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 07, 2017, 02:39:02 AM
At the moment I'm trying to figure out the hole pumping thing as maximising this for dw is probably going to be key. I wish I had more foils to compare here to try and work things out a bit more. I did have a go foil on order but put it on hold till the new one is realised in Nov/Dec. My new mast and fuz will have adjustment between them so I can test a lot more variations. There are a huge number of things that can be adjusted and when you change one thing it's probably going to mean adjusting everything else's, it's incredibly complex compared to a surfboard!

I just had to jig up my new mast for the fuz mount, a bit ghetto but it's fairly accurate
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Piros on September 07, 2017, 03:57:20 AM
Yes I've been lucky to test so many different foils. Interesting to see also Dave Kalama and Alex have been playing around with the new curved Maliko front wing with the Kai rear wing . Go Foil Aus say it will be available in 4 to 6 weeks can't wait to try that , supposed to be really good in smaller waves with heaps more pump and turning ability. Props to you for all your work you are doing on the foils they look really good and I'm keen to get a wedge like you posted on SB.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 07, 2017, 04:44:38 AM
Yea even now there is only a hand full of people over the uk with sup foils, I'm the only one I know of for about 100miles so not much options to test other than buying them all and I don't have the cash for that. I did have a go foil combo ordered but with pennies tight I have said wait till the new one. I do hear of a few others things in the pipe lines so maybe others to try too.

Flying has been in my blood since I was first given a knife and balsa wood at the age of 3 or 4 then building and designing model boats and aircraft all my child hood. I even had a rc hydrofoil back in the 80's. I then went on to fly full size aircraft around the age of 16-17 I first went solo in gliders with just under 20hours of training which is about 1/3 the normal person would have.

Being able to combine my love of the water with my love of flight has been huge for me and why I have been so pasonate about foiling.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on September 07, 2017, 07:14:12 AM
Piros, the configuration of windsurf foils is not because of power, but because they use an existing Tuttle box for the fin.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Piros on September 07, 2017, 09:04:41 PM
Ah yes of course plus that's where the back foot is.....so I assume they just slide the fuselage forward to help with lift.  How did your foil go in Hood river , I was talking to Rob from Aus about it he met you over there and said you were looking for a test pilot.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 08, 2017, 12:44:01 PM
So I allso just noticed it looks like the go foil has a lot shorter fuz behind the center point of the mast to the Takuma, is this correct piros and if so how does the naish compare?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Piros on September 09, 2017, 10:11:25 PM
Yes another good pick Charlie. The Go foil Fuselage is 80mm or 3.15" shorter between the wings , plus the mast is back 50mm or 2" . It's quiet a difference but you don't really feel it. There is a couple of pounds difference in the weight with the Naish being heavier but again you don't notice it surfing but you can feel it on the long paddles back out and carrying it to the car. The extra weight of the Naish also feels better on sketchy take offs but that could also be attributed to the longer fuselage.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 09, 2017, 11:51:20 PM
Cheers thanks for the pic I think this is perhaps the length of the fuz and position of mast could be the main effect to how efective the pumping works like when we had the comparison to pumping a bike and a skate board, basically it's finding what works for the frequency/harmonics that is posable to pump at comfatably.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Beasho on September 10, 2017, 05:40:11 AM
FYI:  Go Foil is 6.59 lbs with front and rear wing.

What is the Naish?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Piros on September 10, 2017, 05:00:07 PM
Go Foil Kai                   6.59 lbs

Naish Thrust Large     10.32 lbs

Sling Shot Surf model  11 .02 lbs

I'm guessing the Takuma will be closer to the Slingshot than the Naish , Charlie can you confirm.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 11, 2017, 07:26:10 AM
Yes the takuma is about 11.87
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: AlexFun on September 15, 2017, 09:15:47 AM
Interesting.  So the main difference between the original Takuma wing and your prototype is a thicker leading edge?  You did not change the surface area of the wing?

Leading edge and bottom profile area is almost the same.

Hi Supuk,
amazing what you are doing, i learned so much from you!

So you mainly shaped in more chamber?
@ Piros, maybe you can measure the profils of the Naish and Gofoil for comparison?

And i thought i could Supfoil with a 13mm flat Mantafoil, o dear, maybe in Nazare when McNamara and the town-in crews show up  ;-]

Alex
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 15, 2017, 11:16:12 AM
Interesting.  So the main difference between the original Takuma wing and your prototype is a thicker leading edge?  You did not change the surface area of the wing?

Leading edge and bottom profile area is almost the same.

Hi Supuk,
amazing what you are doing, i learned so much from you!

So you mainly shaped in more chamber?
@ Piros, maybe you can measure the profils of the Naish and Gofoil for comparison?

And i thought i could Supfoil with a 13mm flat Mantafoil, o dear, maybe in Nazare when McNamara and the town-in crews show up  ;-]

Alex


it was more about creating a larger radius on the leading edge to make the foil less sensitive to changes in AOA but this did add some camber.

There is defiantly a balance that needs to be found, we need lift at low speeds yet low drag when not flying. There is also a point were you can have to much speed so having a little extra drag at the higher speeds would be no bad thing.

I would be very interested to see the profiles of some other wings to see how they compare. you can make templates very quickly by putting some packing tape over the shape you want to profile and then making a very rough cardboard template and ten using bondo to make a impression to get the accurate shape.


Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 15, 2017, 11:18:24 AM
I was working on a aluminum fuz but my shitty little mill was not really up to what I wanted to do so I have decided to do a basic composite one.

soon as I have figured out the cam for it I will cut it on the cnc and have a go at laying one up.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 20, 2017, 06:25:34 AM
Had a little help with the cam, just doing a test cut in mdf before the proper one.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 21, 2017, 02:00:03 PM
Machined out some mould to try a layup in, I expect they may only last one pull but that should be fine just to test and then perhaps I will do them in Ali.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 30, 2017, 11:11:32 AM
First fuz out the mould not perfect but better than expected. Solid carbon and super strong and light so will be interesting to try it out, just a few little bits left to work out.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 02, 2017, 12:16:42 PM
All the component are now complete just need to sort the fixings out and we should be good to test. All up weight is 3kg compared to the 5.4kg of the Takuma so a  significant difference. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on October 02, 2017, 12:59:28 PM
That’s excellent work supuk, just brilliant. And the weight gain will make it easier to ride.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Beasho on October 02, 2017, 05:04:27 PM
Here's another candidate. 

Looks like one of SURFFOILS designs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI7OuPBx4gA
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on October 02, 2017, 05:46:05 PM
UK! Another win.

When you say solid carbon how is that done, fillers? Fabric rolled up in the mold?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 03, 2017, 12:23:57 AM
Here's another candidate. 

Looks like one of SURFFOILS designs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI7OuPBx4gA


I did see that, I guess inspired from the north kite foil, would be interesting to test and see the difference the canard makes and how much drag the double fuzz creates. It would defiantly reduce the risk or injury on the wing tips but you still have the trailing edges there which is probably the main thing that will cut you.

The fuz was laid up with carbon tow staggering them with the taper.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 05, 2017, 11:04:40 AM
We'll  I started to bolt it all up and I came to the desision I was just not happy with the connection between mast and fuz and soon came up with a way to improve the design so back to the computer and I have just about finished two options, one that could be machined in ali and anouther that could be moulded. I'm tempted to go the ali route and get the parts machined properly but a little striped for cash at the moment so may go with the carbon route which I can maybe machine here.

I'm the mean time I have just started to cut a new board. For the past few weeks I have gone back to using my original converted fish and it's been working well so I have taken my square nose fish and done some tweaks and have this board now on the way.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Blackrat on October 10, 2017, 04:52:20 AM
Nice !!

Did you do a build thread on your Cnc on the zone ? It looks familiar ?
Is that eps or xps you using ?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 10, 2017, 05:18:42 AM
No I don't think I did. Its normal eps
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on October 10, 2017, 05:42:31 PM
Let me tell you. I've seen the CNC in person and it's truly awe inspiring. Able to cut unlimiteds and any shop would be stoked to have it. I'm still not sure why you aren't just being flown around the world to build those for cutting shops.

Once that foil is shaped and scanned I'm buying a wing blank for sure. Unless you start making the Greyfoil ( which sounds like a family name from Game Of Thrones.)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 24, 2017, 12:31:03 PM
While I carry on learning cad I thought I would freestyle a new larger wing just using some pet core and the sander and a block to get the shape. I will then add a single layer of glass to hold its shape and then bag a few more on the top of that. The new board is allso nearly there.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SlatchJim on October 24, 2017, 02:12:18 PM
Let me tell you. I've seen the CNC in person and it's truly awe inspiring. Able to cut unlimiteds and any shop would be stoked to have it. I'm still not sure why you aren't just being flown around the world to build those for cutting shops.
That's a great gig if you can swing it.  I worked for a geotechnical engineering company that had the industry standard machine for testing shear strength in soil.  The guy that fixed it and calibrated it was the only one of his kind, and he spent the better part of 6 months each year doing a world tour. He was the envy of everyone in the company that knew what kind of a job he worked himself into.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 27, 2017, 04:43:59 PM
New board done and new wing taking shape. I 3D print the tubes that fit the Takuma fuz and then bond them in with plenty of glass to secure them, i did the top with one layer of 6oz that was then used to give me something to poor the trailing edge reanforcement on before getting trimed down and the bottom laid up. Once this is done and sanded I will vac bag 5 more layers top and bottom to the wing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Newps on October 29, 2017, 10:33:26 AM
Very cool looking new front wing.  Your ability to churn out new designs is inspiring.  Thank you for sharing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on October 29, 2017, 10:08:15 PM
I like it too.

Was this shaped flat and then cut and reassembled, or did you shape it with the anhedral?

I'm gonna try to start mine this week. Turns out my charger is only 1 amp. Won't get far on that so I'm searching.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 30, 2017, 03:01:32 AM
Yes I shaped the two half with a straight leading edge and got them symmetrical then added the shape to the tip, then glued the two halfs together in the center for with some of the anhedral and then cut the tips to add the poly anhedral.   
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 30, 2017, 02:28:41 PM
Got a fare bit done over the weekend booth sides now bagged on the front wing and now all sanded and the tail has gone in with both sides all in one go.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on October 30, 2017, 07:47:32 PM
Can't wait to see how this one flies. Could be a game changer if a simpler shape performs well.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 31, 2017, 04:45:54 PM
 Out the bag and cleaned up and ready for a hot coat.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Beasho on November 01, 2017, 06:21:08 AM
Holy Mooochoooo!

Are you looking for some test pilots?
 

I love the Go Foil but your artwork is looking pretty fantastic. 

Truth be told several of us have our foils in "The Shop" I am suffering from the "One is None and Two is One" mantra. 

I am looking for a backup option when things need a repair.  Sadly this applies to:
 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 01, 2017, 07:25:21 AM
Holy Mooochoooo!

Are you looking for some test pilots?
 

I love the Go Foil but your artwork is looking pretty fantastic. 

Truth be told several of us have our foils in "The Shop" I am suffering from the "One is None and Two is One" mantra. 

I am looking for a backup option when things need a repair.  Sadly this applies to:
  • The Foil
  • The Mast
  • The Board
  • The Surfer


Cheers one I get it how I want I’m happy for anyone to try it’s just getting that feeling right like any board till then I’m happy to test them myself :)

How are you all breaking them? What’s failing or is it just running into stuf?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Beasho on November 01, 2017, 10:20:43 AM
How are you all breaking them? What’s failing or is it just running into stuf?

One Mast delamination (like a piece of carbon stripped off the mast), One subtle crack at the Mast to Tuttle connection and One catastrophic mast to Tuttle connection failure.  Different brands.

All of these were under "normal" use scenarios.  NOT from a single defined impact event.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 01, 2017, 10:39:26 AM
interesting, doesn't  sound great! its fine when traveling in a straight line but there must be huge forces on the masts when loaded in the wrong directions from getting tumbled in the surf so it doesn't surprise me.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 01, 2017, 01:23:31 PM
its taken a year of learning CAD i have made a big personal break through today.  I was going down a dead end road which were never going to allow cad to do what I wanted properly until some one noticed the problem in the method and the result was frustratingly simple! anyways now I have figured It out it finally opens the the door to experiment a lot more accurately with wings as soon. Just got to figure the best method to create quick cheap mounds for one off's but I have a few ideas floating around upstairs so we will see. first I want to test the freestyled 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on November 01, 2017, 08:11:18 PM
Dude! That is insane! I know how many hours you put into that but I suspected there was a fix since the Chinese foils were hitting. Congrats. Now get to work!!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on November 01, 2017, 09:20:27 PM
I've looked at a Chinese SUP foil now, and for this one anyway, I doubt it will really work. Several reasons, but the most telling one is that the front foil profile looks like nonsense. Without cutting it in half I can't be sure, but I think it's just a symmetrical foil with camber. I can't see how it could generate significant lift below 10mph with some positive AOA. Are there kite foils like that? Could be they just made a kite foil wide and thick.

I spent some time at Dave Daum's shop last week during my SoCal trip. He's got one hell of a shaping system. Huge. He has interesting takes on how to build wings and keep them from flexing asymmetrically when bagging. The guy is a master of his shaping machine.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 01, 2017, 10:01:50 PM
I think I know the Chinese one you mean, no I have never seen a kite foil like it and like you say it won’t work at the speeds that are useful to us and be controllable for many reasons. I know at least one company trying to flog these for near the same price as the bigger brands, it’s quite comical!

I have seen a little of what Dave does from his Facebook posts and videos, his cnc is indeed nice. What’s he doing to stop twist? It’s not something I have incointeredproblems with yet but a lot depends on the shape of the wing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on November 02, 2017, 05:12:47 AM
His bagging setup is pretty complex and hard to describe. But one thing I thought was interesting is that he shapes one side of the wing and then glasses it in the block. Then flips it over and CNC's the other side. Gets a stable base for the second cut
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 02, 2017, 05:33:36 AM
His bagging setup is pretty complex and hard to describe. But one thing I thought was interesting is that he shapes one side of the wing and then glasses it in the block. Then flips it over and CNC's the other side. Gets a stable base for the second cut

I think I know the method you mean, a lot can be learnt from the rc glider guys, there a lot of the time they are dealing with incredibly thin cores so precision is everything and the use of vacuum beds and hold downs are a must.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 02, 2017, 10:00:28 AM
Just so happened Dave posted a video today of this exact thing cutting foil cores on the cnc however it seams he is citing them from huge blocks of foam rather than doing them flat, it doesn’t show what he is doing on the second side but would assume a vacuum bed hold down.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 02, 2017, 02:27:50 PM
Front done however working on anouther tail wing that will fit the Takuma fuz without modifying.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 02, 2017, 02:36:25 PM
This is the new tail using a slightly quicker method with it being flat. I started out the same way with a double layer of pvc and hand foils the wing how ever I trim back the leading edge to give room for some reanfocement. I then prepared Mylar skins for the top and surface to which I lay the glass up on to. I allso cut out two areas for the hard fixing points, these are then allso filled with some microfiber mix. After all that it’s in the bag at max pressure for a few hours.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on November 02, 2017, 07:00:17 PM
Can't wait for the cut foils to start. That's going to kick the research into high gear.

The new wing looks like it'll be great to learn on, stable and should fly at an easy pace. I'm still working too hard. Hoping to get some wing sanding done this weekend. Prepare for photos.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on November 03, 2017, 10:26:56 AM
Yeah, he uses cutoffs from board making. He doesn't wirecut his board blanks--uses them whole. Seems odd, but his operation looks very efficient and he's got a great mind. He showed me how he makes flexible molds for the mounting cores and whenever a glasser in his glassing bay mixes too much resin the pour it into a mold. Super slick and he gets a hard, consistent mounting core that machines beautifully in the wing, tail or mast base.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 05, 2017, 09:00:15 AM
2nd rear wing done, this method is nice and fast for flat wings. Out the bag once cleaned up it could be used straight away but I deside to do a little more refining and gave it a nice hot coat after
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 05, 2017, 10:56:40 AM
New wing set complete, was hoping to test it over the weekend but it was flat, Tuesday looks like it may happen
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on November 05, 2017, 12:12:04 PM
It's a bird. It's a plane......
I like the aviation graphics. Well done.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on November 05, 2017, 02:07:43 PM
Yeah man, your stuff always looks so pro, even the first attempts.

I'm anxious to hear about how this one flies. I need a nap and then I gotta get in the garage and cut and sand some foam myself. Finished my sanding rig yesterday.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 07, 2017, 09:28:11 AM
It felt like a long few days waiting to try the new wings but a dawn patrol this morning gave me the chance. Temps have dropped fast here in the uk and it was a cold and windy one this morning but I did have it all to myself. It was a first sesion for booth foil and board and I have to say they both felt great. The board was designed for maximum stability and a fast release and that was very apparent and could probably drop in size with this design. As for the wings very happy again lots more lift and glide, pumps a lot better and although not quite as manovrable as to be expected still managed to get multiple cutback fairly easily on our very narrow and relativly small waves. It defiantly has a lot more dw potential than the v100 which was my goal.  All in all very happy with the new toys and I could quite happily carry on surfing this for a while but me being me I will carry on playing and see what I can improve further on :)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on November 07, 2017, 08:23:38 PM
Oh man, love that this worked out. I'm reading more and more people saying the big wings are the way to go both for learning and also some guys just like them for fun. Almost every review of the Naish stuff says to get the big wing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blueplanetsurf on November 08, 2017, 01:21:56 PM
Nice work!  The board and Foil look totally pro and way beyond what most of us would consider DIY.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 08, 2017, 02:02:33 PM
cheers sorry only just noticed the pic was upside down and cant now edit it
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 11, 2017, 10:48:44 AM
Had a fantastic 3hour foil session today on the new board and wings cant believe the difference with the new wings over the v100 wings. Take off with the new board are so much easier I'm thinking I could actually drop a inch in width and a few on length easily not sure how long I can stop myself building it. It was defiantly the best session yet and felt quite happy carving around and I'm already now starting to get a little bit of the pump going back out which I could never do on the v100. Its got me even more stoked on foiling!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 13, 2017, 11:44:11 AM
wasn't the best wave by any means but was the only one a friend captured unfortunately he missed the first half too.

http://youtu.be/FA7G61LeC38 (http://youtu.be/FA7G61LeC38)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 14, 2017, 09:45:36 AM
had a go at cnc a wing mold this eve, only in foam at the moment but got a idea im going to try to see if I can turn it into a cheap method to make a one off.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on November 14, 2017, 07:16:34 PM
Dude, you are getting there. Curious to see if you'll be able to cut a plug to glass over, or do you think the mold is the way to go with the construction method?

I've been googling and I can't find anywhere that explains solid carbon fiber construction like you find in solid rod construction. Is that how the GoFoils are made? Are the solid carbon/resin?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: daswusup on November 14, 2017, 09:08:37 PM
My slingshot is made of prepeg carbon. My understanding is that it is a liquid that is sold refrigerated and then you squirt it into a mold and it goes off at room temp. That's my simple regurgitation of how my buddy explained it to me.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 14, 2017, 09:52:39 PM
The reason for doing the mold is you have a lot less hand finnishing to do. It would be easy enough to cut a core to glass over like my previous method but not as accurate.
I’m not 100% sure how pultruded stuff is made but it’s going to involve some sort of tow being pulled through a die and cooked. It would not be themethod used for foils I would think.

Pre preg just means pre pregnated cloth so rather than having to wet by poring resin on and using a squeegee it goes into a machine and saturated as it goes through a number of rollers to give even saturation and the correct ratio of fibers to resin. The resin can be of any type but normally it is resin that does not cure at room temp but requires a oven and cures at around 150deg. The parts would go into the oven normally in a vacuum bag to compress the laminate.

The oven or autoclave as they are called can then ether be at atmospheric pressure or pressured, this then helps put even more pressure on the vac bag to help compress and remove any air from the laminate.

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on November 14, 2017, 11:21:47 PM
But are they solid? That's the impression I get from all the info but that seems unlikely. I'm familiar with pre-preg cf like in car parts but the discussions all seem to try to make it like they are solid pieces but that doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 14, 2017, 11:29:09 PM
The wings and fuz would defiantly not be solid, they would weigh a ton the mast could be but still fairly unlikely.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 17, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
I came across this today via another forum, its not a method I have used before but could quite easily work especially for things like masts.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/icelandic-aerofoil-humbles-formula-1-engineer-willem-toet?trk=mp-reader-card
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 18, 2017, 03:32:54 PM
Thought I would re visit 3D printing a wing now I got the cad sorted. Still geting a little warping I think it would be better to print in smaller sections to stop this.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on November 18, 2017, 06:45:49 PM
Dude, you're getting there. What about sending them out to a larger printer? Probably crazy expensive but maybe a student at a college could help with access to a high end printer?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 19, 2017, 02:09:35 AM
like you say would be crazy expensive and probably even then not that many that will go that large. there are cheap printers that could do half at a time but is more complicated than just the size of the machine. The idea of this is more it gives a method that people can on a relatively low cost printer at home.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 19, 2017, 02:50:09 AM
Half the wing printed, like I say still geting a lot of warping, not sure if that’s just the shap or the type of plastic I suspect a combination of booth. The idea for this for me is to be able to find the best way to try new shapes so don’t want it to become to complicated. I will print the second half and then glass the hole thing and see how it holds up.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: clay on November 20, 2017, 11:17:13 AM
Right on, I can feel the stoke all the way across the pond to norcal!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on November 20, 2017, 06:13:43 PM
Dude, that’s pretty good. If you get the file straight you know that the cheap printers are going to catch up soon anyway. That’s the great thing about tech.

I got a big box of resin, glass, and carbon today so things are getting real around here too.

One question, seeing all these wide wings coming out. How wide was that last wing you made? It looked wider than the Takuma.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 21, 2017, 01:34:18 AM
it was a 800mm span
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 23, 2017, 07:35:53 AM
Not been very creative the last week but I have had a lot of Foil time and have been testing and trying lots or little changes in the setup and starting to find out what adjustments can achieve and as before just a few mm can make a huge difference!

Anyway I have the 3D print all glued together and I think rather than leaving the print inside I am going to use the method I posted in the link and remove the print after it is cured and the fill the shell with foam.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on November 25, 2017, 10:05:05 AM
So did the smaller sections allow you to get around the warping? It looks great man and sets the stage for way faster prototyping I'm sure.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 26, 2017, 12:58:07 AM
No unfortunately with pla I have still been geting some warping in the base of the print. I used a raft which helped a little, posabley a enclosure would help or a different plastic but It works ok for what I need. I may try pet next time. Half way through glassing it then just need to deside how I’m going to do the internal structure.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 27, 2017, 06:17:54 AM
Worked like a charm!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on November 27, 2017, 09:43:01 PM
Perfect!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 29, 2017, 12:21:14 PM
Had a bit of a problem geting the 3D printed fuz tube in so had to do a bit of modifications to get it in. However before that the 3D printed tube got wrapped in a bit of glass and carbon and a high density insert placed in front to tie the top and bottom skins together nice and solid. It was allso time to bond the trailing edge at tips with a Cabo mix. I allso made sure to get everything all lined up square and with the correct inserdance.

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on November 29, 2017, 05:44:49 PM
It looks thin at the trailing edge. Is that just the photo or was this just a shell and  you're going to add more glass once you get it glued up?

I'm also worried about making sure mine's all true before I set it. Just want things to run straight. That said, it's still a surfing device so I know that "good enough" will work. I've got a nice marble slab that a buddy gave me to make sure I've got a true and flat surface, even though I've not had any time to glue up my fuselage. The early dark is still killing me. I haven't adjusted to winter yet.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on November 29, 2017, 11:43:14 PM
I used 6 layers of 6oz top and bottom as there is no structural core that is all there is at the TE. I’m tempted not to actually fill the inside with foam but my over Claudio’s side will probably get the better of me and I will do it anyway. It’s not hard to get it true just get the front wing parallel to the fuz cord wise just use some sort of similar setup to a pair of notched calipers. Vertical for the mast can odviosly be done with a square on a flat surface but then make sure you tail surface is allso level. then trueness can be don’t with triangulation from wing tips to center of fuz at the rear.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 02, 2017, 06:16:05 AM
Nearly there now with this wing and new process, did a fill coat in black and then gave it a sand back then a hot coat in white. The one problem you do get with the expanding foam is it continues to gas out for quite some time so I have left the holes open to allow it to equalise.  May have also cut a new foil board 6'10 x 26.5" from a block that has been sitting around for a while  ::)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on December 02, 2017, 11:46:02 AM
Dude, it's so good. You inspired me to get back to mine. The first one will be a bit hacked together but it'll get me a mast and fuse to use for future wings and should be good to let me get the feel for flying.

I'm thinking that the more this printing thing evolves us home builders might have a shot at really nice foils and the sport will move forward way faster as people can prototype quicker as well. The hive mind will get us down the road faster for sure.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 02, 2017, 01:06:15 PM
good good you just need to get on and do it its not hard to make something very useable. put the effort into the mast and fuz so you have something solid and that you can easily swap the wings on then bodge a quick set of wings like I did on my free style set.

the printers have lots of applications its just learning how best to aid manufacturing with them. There are so many little ways they can help its crazy, I cant wait for new printers to be developed and open up even more possibilities. There are already two other printers I'm already very tempted to get.

Like you say with everyone having so much to learn the faster everyone can try new things the better so hopefully some of this will help others with the testing. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on December 02, 2017, 02:10:04 PM
I mostly print polycarbonate now. It takes a bit more work to get it going, but it's worth it--stronger parts, less warping--if you do it right. Lots of information online, but for me, the biggest benefits came from enclosing my PC printer and playing with the print head to get the temperature high enough (everyone says 290 works, but 295 is better). You need the bed to get good and warm too, but a good enclosure helps with that. I put heaters in my enclosure but I keep forgetting to turn them on and I still get strong, dimensionally stable parts. And don't buy cheap PC. Matterhackers has good filament, and it needs to stay dry--meaning store it in a big ziplock bag with desiccant. I haven't printed anything with PLA since I started using PC. I still do a little ABS, but that's because I have a lot of it.

I made a shrouded propellor for an 85 lb thrust trolling motor (guess what that's for) in October that I think is substantially stronger than the one that came on the unit.

I'm going to have to buy a printer for Maui, there's a dozen things I'd like to print.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on December 02, 2017, 02:24:13 PM
Pono, I don't want to see you trolling the efoil forums too now. ;)

Thx for the tip. I keep avoiding buying a printer but it's looking like I'm heading that way. First I'm going to hit up all my buddies who bought one and never use it lol.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 02, 2017, 03:18:42 PM
a cabinet for my prusa is on the list, I have done a few designs but all come down to cost and I cant bring myself to do some sort of bodge I want it to look cool. I tend to do anything that is just a prototype in pla as it prints so nice and is at least slightly greener than the others and then recently I have been using a fare bit of pet. From what I read abs is now out of date and thing like pet have replaced it. I have a roll of abs I tried but gave up very quick with it.
I too thought I would print a prop from solid pla and its incredibly strong.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 03, 2017, 04:52:12 AM
And here you go a bit of sanding a splash of paint and jobs a good’n
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on December 03, 2017, 08:26:32 AM
Very cool. Beautiful work. I never build anything that pretty.

Yeah, my enclosure looks like crap. Every time I look at it I want to toss it in the trash and rebuild it. I had a big piece of plexiglass left over from building my somewhat-useless water tunnel, so it has one clear side and the rest is 1/4" plywood I had kicking around. With all my metalworking equipment you'd think it would be a cool aluminum cabinet, but no.

Cowboy, you are on to something there--I have two I never use. A Form 1 and a really early one I don't remember the name of--one of the little guys with laser cut wooden frames. Problem is that if you get an older one the print head and bed temperature probably won't go high enough for Polycarbonate. There are other fiber-reinforced plastics that have high tensile strength, but if you want to print parts that can do something useful you need to get a hot enough printhead and bed to do PC. You can buy aftermarket printheads but they aren't a bargain and it adds to the fiddling you'll have to do.

PLA and PET print beautifully if your printer is set up well. Most old printers have limited bed adjustment. If the print is going to be fine, then you can't get away with any bed misalignment. Any imperfections in the adhesion of the first layer and the part is going to be compromised and might come apart during printing.

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 03, 2017, 08:53:15 AM
That’s the reason I went with the prusa as it has the auto mesh bed levelling and other than setting the z height when you change plastics it’s fairly hassle free printing. The new mk3 has even more cool stuf though which is tempting
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on December 03, 2017, 11:47:18 AM
I'm going for either the Prusa MK3 or the Luzbot. Prusa is a lot cheaper but the Luzbot looks super sturdy and has a big volume (11X11X10").
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 03, 2017, 12:30:11 PM
I was surprised how sturdy my prusa was when you see the construction, the mk3 should be super solid with the extrusion frame so that wouldn't worry me. The extra build volume is nice but its in a totally different price bracket but if price is not a problem why not. I have been wondering about a cheap cr10 to print foils on as it has a 300 x 300 x 400 volume , it has other limitations but hear its not bad for the money and if I had a spare $400 I would.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 09, 2017, 06:22:22 AM
Got out on the new wing and it’s a little faster than the old hand shaped wing so I think I’m going to try doing anouther with a few mods but the same technique using the printer plus perhaps a even larger one for light down winding. The current one is just over 1600 sqcm.

There are two clips here from yesterday it’s not normally we’re i foil but waves were small so the beach break was the only option and it gets a shallow fast as one of the clips shows. Must get around to trying some different angles you just don’t get a feel for height speed and angle from the paddle

https://youtu.be/Wgsv3oWMq7w
https://youtu.be/Y8mjAutcnqg
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on December 09, 2017, 08:39:49 AM
Must get around to trying some different angles you just don’t get a feel for height speed and angle from the paddle

Maybe you could mold / print a pocket that would recess into the bottom of the nose of your board and nest a Gopro into it. It would face downward and backwards. If it was completely through the board, you could even insert from the top side so you could turn it on and off from the top side. Or make it an add on nose piece that stuck out a little so you could see the board and foil. Make it a little longer with an arcing beam mount that holds the Gopro in a nose cone of sorts, and captures you, the board nose in the center and the foil below.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 09, 2017, 09:41:50 AM
Must get around to trying some different angles you just don’t get a feel for height speed and angle from the paddle

Maybe you could mold / print a pocket that would recess into the bottom of the nose of your board and nest a Gopro into it. It would face downward and backwards. If it was completely through the board, you could even insert from the top side so you could turn it on and off from the top side. Or make it an add on nose piece that stuck out a little so you could see the board and foil. Make it a little longer with an arcing beam mount that holds the Gopro in a nose cone of sorts, and captures you, the board nose in the center and the foil below.

the problem isn't how or what I think its more the fact I'm to lazy and can never really be that bothered with taking the camera out, it tends to get rather boring to watch, you always seam to have to mess with it and I prefer to just get on and surf. Would be good to see what the foil is doing a bit more though, ill have to try get one of those smaller ones maybe but cant justify a go pro as they always seam to die after a year or so. my £60 yi camera has been the best I have had so far!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on December 09, 2017, 04:03:48 PM
Th cameras are a hassle. I notice that Robert from BluePlanet gets some good angles off his paddle from down low.

I love that you've got the wing dialed printing down now. That's really cool and you will be able to prototype so fast.

I busted my toe pretty good popping up at Malibu today. Maybe that'll keep me in the garage for a bit. ;)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blueplanetsurf on December 09, 2017, 07:50:48 PM
Yes I'm getting some good angles of the foil from my paddle mounted camera by holding it low, I'm playing around with different angles in this video.

https://youtu.be/GMoqy5PNkw0
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Sam the Surfer on December 10, 2017, 06:58:45 AM
Yes I'm getting some good angles of the foil from my paddle mounted camera by holding it low, I'm playing around with different angles in this video.

https://youtu.be/GMoqy5PNkw0

Great video and looking good!! That board is crazy looking!!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 10, 2017, 12:57:59 PM
yes those shots look great, at the moment I haven't found any wave here that come close to that though and I don't think the 50+knot winds and freezing rain could ever look quite like that and give me so much time to play around with things, its  defiantly hi on the holiday list now just for all the cool looking foil waves you have.  It also looks like you have a wider angle so get more of the board and foil in the picture which make a big differance but have not quite figured how to change that on mine yet.




Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 14, 2017, 02:09:07 PM
Had a fun surf today but the cold killed the camera 10mins in so only got this one crash at the start of the session. Waves were clean today but relativly fast for a foiling waves so took a few more good crashes after this one, really need to find some nice big fat rollers somewhere, I got some really nice tight cutbacks today but it’s so hard with the short steep faces to stay in the power zone, dreaming of the big Hawaiian bumps and warm waters in the videos!

http://youtu.be/oovrYDe5dTo
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 16, 2017, 02:27:07 PM
I won’t bore everyone with any more of the building on here but the printer has been running flat out and I now have two more plugs ready to mold from , a XL and XXL :)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on December 16, 2017, 04:07:29 PM
Wait, those are your latest prints? Those are flawless. How are those finished, are you putting primer on them and sanding? That's almost unbelievable compared to the prints I usually see. You've tuned that Prusa up man.

Trust me, this thread has not been boring. Check the numbers, there are a ton of lurkers.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 16, 2017, 04:28:19 PM
yes they have had a coat of filler primer on them to which I sand and then wax ready to laminate on
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: opie on December 16, 2017, 04:32:00 PM
  Trust me, this thread has not been boring. Check the numbers, there are a ton of lurkers.

That's true.  I think I've been through this thread about 50 times, trying to follow what you've done.  I've actually considered printing it out and adding an index.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 21, 2017, 03:02:33 PM
had some fun bumps on the foil yesterday, first time in a proper ground swell on the outer banks at local ish spot and I had some nice long rides, looking forward to trying the new wing to see how it compares.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33yggRwCJHU&t= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33yggRwCJHU&t=)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on December 21, 2017, 07:44:24 PM
Nice long rides man. Good footage and nice glassy conditions too.

I love sessions like that.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 29, 2017, 09:13:54 AM
had quite a lot of foil time the last few days and looks like it should continue for days still.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on December 29, 2017, 10:07:12 AM
Looks like a strong sup community there. Your foils and foiling has come a long way Charlie. Well done.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 30, 2017, 01:15:39 AM
Looks like a strong sup community there. Your foils and foiling has come a long way Charlie. Well done.

Yes there are a lot of Sup and surfers in the area and as we don’t often get waves in this area it tends to get busy when there are.

I think learning cad while I was in aus has been the biggest help (although gutted I didn’t have one there with me) so that I have been able to build the wings a lot easier and more accurately and I have have a setup I’m really happy with how it’s ridding allthough saying that I still have stacks of new ideas to build and try on booth board and foil.
Just been sent this pic from anouther angle from yesterday which is quite interesting to see the shape of the swell. Not having the ability to get anywhere near it before it looks like i need to go to the shoulder the pump forward and I may get on to the bump running down the center of the channel.


 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on December 30, 2017, 12:58:18 PM
3rd day in a row on the foil this week and after a quick surf a friend and myself headed up the cost to try a short down wind run, typically the wind dropped and the tide was a bit low so the swell was  not going down the coast but even so we got some good runners and when given the chance it was relatively easy to get up on the foil. hoping to try another run tomorrow else were.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 02, 2018, 02:06:35 PM
A little clip from the down winder that was lacking a lot of wind. I was on my large wing and my friend was on a stock takuma. http://youtu.be/pnix2lbvMxc (http://youtu.be/pnix2lbvMxc)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 02, 2018, 06:36:13 PM
Were you still able to get some rides on the bigger foil?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 03, 2018, 12:37:52 AM
plenty like in the video but struggled to find any to connect but I think that was just the conditions. Its a bit all or nothing here in the winter today its blowing 5knots and 3.5m swell making it to crazey to dw then it spins round and goes to nothing on the weekend. I'm sure I will find a good day at some point but I think the real fun will be had when we get the sea breezes in the summer.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 05, 2018, 03:25:53 AM
Just finished up one of the two wing I was working on went a bit experimental with the masking tape and paint. Just a few small changes to the shape from the last one but some bigger changes to the construction method.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 05, 2018, 08:48:55 PM
They keep coming man. I do like your colors and look better than most. I don't love a lot of the foils cosmetics. The Takuma is cool but the graphics do add to the look. Some of the factory foils look really cheap due to the plain finish.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on January 06, 2018, 10:28:25 AM
I love those "hot" leading edges!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Newps on January 07, 2018, 02:24:11 PM
Sick..sick...love the tape/paint job. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 07, 2018, 02:44:39 PM
had a bit of a test yesterday , the weight of this wing is about half that of the original and immediately noticed that this wing felt a lot more buoyant and that I may need to lose some board letters. need to spend some more time on it though to get a good feel and comparison. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 09, 2018, 02:08:46 AM
Just finished the XXL wing ready to try dw soon as we gets some suitable conditions, Although mid winter here we get a lot of storms and high wind its hard to find days that are safe enough to go out in to do dw runs but fingers crossed its not to long before I can have a play.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 13, 2018, 03:26:59 PM
Playing around with making a new carbon fuz so just cncing some new molds :)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 13, 2018, 04:57:35 PM
That's nice. I th BK that's the thing I'll change on my next one, my fuse is pretty chunky. I could go with something more that size for sure. I am considering buying the Liquid Force fuse and mast and just making wings for it, but I'm not sure if I want to give up a carbon mast. After this one I'm pretty sure I could make a pretty decent one with 3D printing or just wood again. It's not that hard really.

Ready to see this molding. Will it be hollow or will you build up carbon and make it solid?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 16, 2018, 03:47:00 PM
Taken longer than hoped to get the fuz mould done but got them all waxed up this eve ready for the first layup. I’m going to do the first solid as a test, I ordered a roll of 200mm x 200m of 12k uni the other day as it was on special. I was a bit shocked when it arrived I think I have enough to last a lifetime! Im ether going to try making up some prepreg and chilling it before laying it in to get a nice tight lam without excess resin and then bag it or alternatively I could go the resin infusion route which may work quite well.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 16, 2018, 07:01:27 PM
Stoked to watch this one come together. I can't quite envision how the solid layups work yet. Will you cut the fabric to fit around the filled areas?

Over here I just got my sealant tape so I'm gonna get started bagging some stuff over here and I finally picked up my surf mat project too. (Super stoked about that for travel.)

The more I read about mast bending, the more I think that the carbon mast and fuse is the way to go.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: opie on January 16, 2018, 08:56:52 PM
The more I read about mast bending, the more I think that the carbon mast and fuse is the way to go.

The fact that there isn't a Takuma or Naish mast available in the U.S. right now  makes me think there are a lot of guys bending their masts.  And at the rate I'm bending them I'll need 8 masts to get through one year.  Carbon is the way to go.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on January 17, 2018, 09:55:02 AM
The new infusion bits are pretty interesting. I especially like the look of the sleeved spiral pipe. The biggest problem with infusion is all the stuff you throw away. Anything that reduces that pain is interesting. Do you plan to do that fuse mold as infusion? You need to make a few of mods to that mold to make it infusion-ready unless you know something I don't (pretty likely). As soon as I get back to the Mainland I'm going to attend some infusion classes. My GMC Motorcoach project is crying out for some aero parts. Probably carbon. Infusion would be the way to go for big molds like these would be.

I use table-pregging for almost any CF project, and most fiberglass ones as well. Slow hardener, reasonably firm scraping the excess off the layers and gelcoating the mold or sealing the plug makes for a light, strong, not very leaky part. I've never had one fail to pinhole, but that's probably just because I don't know what I'm doing.

You might also consider doing a foam core and pressing the mold like a paddle blade since you have a CNC shaper. You could lap one side and squash the other. You wouldn't want the skinny blade-like edges of a paddle. You'd need to strongback the mold and clamp the bejesus out of it, but once you got the technique down you could crank out some nice masts.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 17, 2018, 10:38:55 AM
I have laid up the first test and is in the bag, I have done it in two half's like the previous one I did and then will bond together. If I do infusion I could ether do it in two parts and just do the standard process of I will add a port in and out of the mould for the resin to flow. I would use the outer channel for a silicone gasket to seal the two half's.   
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on January 17, 2018, 11:52:13 AM
The few attempts I've made at infusion I had a lot of trouble getting the resin to flow to all the corners. My most recent attempt I had four out forts and two in. I cut off the two outlets in the middle almost immediately since the resing line was a deep convex curve. I had to fiddle with both the inlets and the outlets to get the corners and still had undersaturation in the furthest reaches. Hence, classes before I try it again. But I'm almost certain that one inlet and one outlet, even on a narrow piece, will have problems. I'd go on both corners and the middle. I've seen parts done (not by me) with just the corners that were dry in the center.

On the other hand, people that know what they're doing get perfect results with setups that look bound to fail to me. I must have watched more than a hundred infusion videos. Some of them show shockingly bad molds that get great results. There's one guy that spray-glued carbon to an old car hood with some window putty around the edges and got a perfect-looking reproduction of the hood in carbon. If I used that much spray glue the part would have freckles everywhere.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 17, 2018, 09:03:07 PM
Pono, I'd love to have a bagging class down here in SoCal, infusion seems like a lot of work but I'll bet that as you say, a class would make it more do-able.

The bottom of a board makes a pretty good wetout table for small pieces, by the way, as long as you clean it up before it all kicks. I figured that out doing this bottom cassette. One less piece of plastic to toss.

Charlie, when you bond the pieces are you putting carbon over the joint or just epoxy?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 18, 2018, 02:04:08 AM
if anything infusion is simpler its like anything in composites there's no real short cuts if you want it to work well so you have to use the correct resin and materials specific to infusion if you want good results.

I use a structural two part adhesive to stick the two parts together, its a lot stronger than standard epoxy.   
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 18, 2018, 08:01:17 PM
Regarding the structural adhesive, hopefully you're not using the aerospace stuff. ;) Crazy to see $100 for 6oz of glue! No wonder jets and super cars are so expensive. The composite game has gotten crazy.

The boat stuff is not cheap but it's reasonable at least.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 19, 2018, 09:59:59 AM
It’s a marine adhesive spabond345 .
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on January 19, 2018, 11:03:38 AM
100 bucks of adhesive is a lot cheaper than welding.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 19, 2018, 09:41:12 PM
True that Pono.

It's a sign of my age that I still think of metal as stronger.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 20, 2018, 12:29:33 AM
Not nesaseraly true it all depends on the component and what forces it has to take. I have spent a few days with some guys that build components for f1 cars and foils for ac yachts and learning a huge amount. Carbon does have its limitations and things it doesn’t like to do.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 21, 2018, 02:38:38 AM
Just about there with the latest iteration of the fuz and mast. Happy with the result and all up weight of just a fraction over 3kg all up.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 21, 2018, 07:10:30 PM
Dude, 3kg is amazing for all that. The mast and fuse look great. Your skills are unbelievable man. It offsets all us home builders on here. ;)

I guess you can sell that Takuma now?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 22, 2018, 12:35:57 AM
Cheers yes that’s the plan
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blueplanetsurf on January 23, 2018, 11:31:16 PM
Just about there with the latest iteration of the fuz and mast. Happy with the result and all up weight of just a fraction over 3kg all up.
Very nice, can't really call that DIY anymore, that looks like a pro setup.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 24, 2018, 04:40:38 AM
cheers its getting there but still lots to play with, There isn't much there that's super high tec it just requires a little planning preparation.

I went out on the XXl today on the takuma mast , it was 50knots on shore in the harbor and I had to paddle prone to get anywhere. I went for the center channel to take some more dw style bumps but the mast felt terrible with such a big wing and not only could you feel the flex side to side but also a lot of twist so there is defiantly a limit some were between the 160 and 260 wing for were a aluminum mast becomes not usable so bare this in mind if you are planning big wings. Next time out I will try the carbon mast and see how that compares.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 24, 2018, 07:34:30 PM
Dude, I hadn't thought about the torsion on the mast with a bigger wing. I'll bet we start to see some serious returns on those big slingshot wings.

Such a crazy thing to watch the physics of a sport be worked out in real time, in the market with people selling stuff they don't even understand yet.

I appreciate the testing you are putting in. I'm sure people test but I feel like a lot of the kite guys just started making bigger wings for their rigs and calling them surf wings.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 08, 2018, 07:39:24 AM
Had a little break and headed to the mountines it’s amazing the similarities of ridding nice deep powder and surfing foils.

I recently deside to take one of my old boards and hack it about a bit, I’m not convinced on the shape but it was siting in the rafters not doing anything so who know I should learn something from it good or bad.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 08, 2018, 08:10:58 PM
The evolution continues. I'm plugging away over here. Starting to pay attention to the boards now. I'm pretty sure that'll be the next thing I look at.

Question, have you prone paddled a foil yet? I see the benefit of the paddle for getting back out after long rides but I haven't seen you posting about that yet. Everyone seems to just be using regular surf boards for that and I'd think that some innovation there would happen too.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 09, 2018, 12:01:19 AM
No I have not tried a prone board yet, since creating the new wings which made life a hole lot easier the weather went to cold and water to nasty to be paddling around prone in it but it is something I plan to do when things warm up a little in the spring and summer and I have designed a board ready that's ready to cut as soon as I feel its time. The other nice thing about having the paddle is your not restricted to one break, I quite often surf 2 or 3 different breaks that are quite spaced out and I wouldn't want to paddle that far prone, it also make the long paddles just a little easier. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 10, 2018, 10:52:40 AM
Tested the modified board today back to back with my current board and it still sucked. The chined rails just takes to much volume out and leave you feeling like your trying to do log rolling.

For me this pricapal Just doesn’t do it to get maximum power down to get on the smallest posable wave you want as much stability as you can get and taking volume from the rails and having more in the center goes totally against and combine it with nice hard rails you get a nice quick release on take off or if you make a quick touch and go.

So onwards to the next one :)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: opie on February 10, 2018, 02:38:27 PM
I keep wondering about those chines people are putting in their foil boards.  I don't know anything about board design but I always feel like what I really want is for the rails to be two pontoons.  It would be like standing on a small dock.  :)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 10, 2018, 05:44:43 PM
I think that also, you have less push to your waves so getting going is probably more effort. It's early and I think there is room for a few designs. Blue planets boards don't look like Kalama's. Lotta ideas.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: opie on February 10, 2018, 07:39:04 PM
Worked like a charm!

When you fiberglass the plug, do you do top layers then bottom layers with separate cuts of glass, or do you wrap one piece of cloth from one side around the leading edge and back down the other side?  I just tried the second way and it did not go smoothly.
Thanks
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 10, 2018, 09:01:19 PM
Opie, was that bagged? I did mine by wrapping as you said and while I got a few wrinkles it was mostly solid. I think it may just take some time to work out the technique.

I'm curious as to how Charlie does it but wrapping should be doable.

I'm working on a holder for my next one so I can have the leading edge pointed up and spin the wing to get all the wrinkles out. This is my "test" wing. I'm hoping to get a bigger one 3D printed soon and start on another that can mount to the same fuselage and then I'll probably start another mast and fuse. Or, I might just give up and buy one. Haha.

One thing I've learned is that in addition to building the thing, you often need to build the tools to build the thing. My first board, about 1/4 of the total build was setting up jigs and such. Also, testing is key. I've actually never done a build operations without a test. I built handplanes to learn to laminate. I planed and drilled and routed spare foam before installing plugs and fins and that saved me a lot of materials. Check my thread, you can see the results of my wrap. I had some wrinkles for sure but I know I can do better next shot.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: opie on February 10, 2018, 11:46:17 PM
It wasn't bagged, I don't think it will handle the pressure, maybe I should try.

 I was just surprised how impossible it seemed to wrap it without wrinkles.  But I imagine if I do bottom patches and top patches the leading edge will end up a mess.  I mean more of a mess.  A jig to hold it upright is a good idea. Thanks.

As for building tools to build the thing, I need to work on that.  Patience and prep are not my strong points.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on February 11, 2018, 09:00:05 AM
Try using peel ply to hold the carbon or glass in place. It's useful without bagging--or just plastic cling wrap, or ripstop nylon (which makes a reasonable peel ply for bagging if you run out). I put mast tracks in my two foil boards yesterday to try sailing them as an aid to learning to foil quicker. I laid cling wrap on top of the last layer, added a layer of foam and then a steel plate as a strongback and topped the mess with an 80 pound bag of concrete. I was concerned that the tracks might lift a bit since I laid a layer of six ounce under the tracks, doubled up at the ends. As it was, one of them got a bit recessed. Should be fine.

(http://www.ponohouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/track1.JPG)


(http://www.ponohouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/track2.JPG)


(http://www.ponohouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/track3.JPG)

The cling wrap doesn't peel off very easily but sands away easily. I cut away the glass over the track slot with a razor blade while the glass was partly cured and picked out the foam to make sure I didn't have any drips in the track.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 11, 2018, 02:00:54 PM
Worked like a charm!

When you fiberglass the plug, do you do top layers then bottom layers with separate cuts of glass, or do you wrap one piece of cloth from one side around the leading edge and back down the other side?  I just tried the second way and it did not go smoothly.
Thanks

it is possible to lay up both sides in one go with plain weave however it takes a lot of manipulation and the fibers get distorted a lot, using a twill weave will make it a lot easer. If I'm just doing a quick prototype I lay the first layer in one go then the rest of the bottom layers in another fare the edges then the same on the top similar to how you would laminate a board odiously bagging it all throughout the process.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Rider on February 11, 2018, 05:00:43 PM
Lot’s of custom windsurfing boards just had two bolt holes to accept the chinook two bolt mount.  Seems like that would be much simpler. Mast tracks present lot’s of other problems.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on February 11, 2018, 09:01:10 PM
I'd love to use one, but that's a hard to find part. I could make one up if I had access to a mill here on Maui, or I guess I could weld something up and embed it in PVC, but mast tracks are easy.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 13, 2018, 11:57:25 AM
New board for me 6’10 x 26.5
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 13, 2018, 07:26:58 PM
Can't wait to see the bottom of this one. You're iterating so fast now it's cool to watch. I'm curious as to where the U.K. Foil board style will land once you dial in the rails.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 14, 2018, 01:58:44 PM
using the new jig to route the foil inserts out works a treat
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on February 14, 2018, 04:28:07 PM
The fixture looks great Charlie.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 14, 2018, 08:50:21 PM
Right, Jrandy? Charlie it's pretty cool of you to post up those files too.

I dug back into Fusion360 last night and made a little tool/jig for a friend who makes scented oils. I've not started on a wing but your screencast is awesome and is a great example of giving back.

I'll build one of these for sure before I install that next cassette.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: opie on February 15, 2018, 10:02:49 AM
Charlie it's pretty cool of you to ost up those files

+1,  I could never figure out how to design a wing until I saw your example.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on February 16, 2018, 04:22:27 PM
Charlie it's pretty cool of you to ost up those files

+1,  I could never figure out how to design a wing until I saw your example.

+2, I was having trouble with the dihedral/anhedral bit until I watched the latest tutorial from Charlie.
Now I gots me some 'swoop'...
Edit: just found out that the *.dat file for (airfoil) import Spline CVS in Fusion360 needs x,y,z <CR> format instead of x<tab>y<CR>
Now I gots me some 'foil'...
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on February 16, 2018, 06:17:22 PM
Third time through the procedure and all is well...
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: 808sup on February 16, 2018, 08:53:21 PM
So supuk, In your pic. It appears you are routing out to install a duel mast track in I’m assuming high density foam. If true then it would seem you don’t feel it necessary to bond through to the deck as previously mentioned. Is that what I’m seeing? I’m interested because I’m about to put some tracks in a repurposed board soon. I thought I would need to run through to the deck of the board to get a secure mounting.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 16, 2018, 11:41:53 PM
That is correct I have been using this method for the last year without any problems. I use a 35mm deep insert and put a layer of glass or two around it then glass over the top with a patch and it’s good to go. Yes you could go to the deck if you wanted and felt the need but this has been working for me
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: 808sup on February 18, 2018, 05:51:05 PM
Thanks for the reply supuk. I’m about to set a block of high density foam into an old race board I’ve had lying around. Now that I’ve reached the point where I am ready to install the new foam I have another question.  My board has the cheap popcorn foam.  Would it be better to use gorilla glue to glue this block in? Or use your method with the fiberglass bed underneath? I don’t want to melt down😳
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 18, 2018, 06:04:31 PM
808, I'd lay in some 4 oz glass just to be sure. It's simple and cheap insurance as it ties it all to the top skin.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: 808sup on February 18, 2018, 06:55:27 PM
Shoots! here is a picture of the foam I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on February 18, 2018, 07:43:00 PM
If not using foaming PU glue, I would be tempted to make a lightweight fill from resin and microspheres and 'frost' the sides and bottom of the cavity, sealing the foam and filling in where the beads are missing. Then I would let it cure before adding glass, resin, and the HD block.
Doing it all at once with alot of resin between insulating foams could trigger a meltdown as you mention. I redid a board a couple years ago and the first finboxes I set were cavitated by meltdowns on the bottom outside of the boxes. It was not visible from the outside. That foam was also lighter than normal EPS.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 19, 2018, 02:27:41 AM
I would defiantly not use pu glue, I would use at least 1 layer of 6oz under mine to connect it to the bottom skin. Use a slow curing epoxy to bond it in, you may want to use a coat of epoxy/mb before just to smooth the bottom out a little first to avoid pooling resin
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Surfside on February 19, 2018, 04:43:42 AM
Why not use PU glue? Curious?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 19, 2018, 04:47:52 AM
Because you relying only on the shear and compressive strength of the foam were if you use epoxy and use a layer of cloth to attach it to the bottom you are using both of the above plus the shear strength of the glass.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 19, 2018, 05:54:22 AM
Because you relying only on the shear and compressive strength of the foam were if you use epoxy and use a layer of cloth to attach it to the bottom you are using both of the above plus the shear strength of the glass.


Sorry I didn’t mean shear at the end there I’m meant tensional
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Surfside on February 19, 2018, 06:27:03 AM
Thanks.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 19, 2018, 08:19:53 AM
If you check my thread you can see that the glass isn't just under the cassette, it's wrapping from the bottom of the board, connected, under the cassette and then out the other side to the bottom skin again. You're making a fiberglass box really instead of just glueing foam to foam with glass over it.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: 808sup on February 19, 2018, 07:02:06 PM
Thanks guys for your help. I skinned the foam with a thick mixture of resin and microspheres. Then wet out some 4oz. and set the high density foam in place as suggested. I have routed the mast tracks to fit and that leads to my next question. Should I use the same resin and microspheres to set boxes? Adding weight to hold in place till resin cures. Then glass over to taste? Or should I set them in glass as HD foam and then glass over?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 20, 2018, 12:31:37 AM
Thanks guys for your help. I skinned the foam with a thick mixture of resin and microspheres. Then wet out some 4oz. and set the high density foam in place as suggested. I have routed the mast tracks to fit and that leads to my next question. Should I use the same resin and microspheres to set boxes? Adding weight to hold in place till resin cures. Then glass over to taste? Or should I set them in glass as HD foam and then glass over?

with the futures having a flange i don't use any glass under them if you are using a chinook or standard style box i would be tempted to put some under although probably overkill
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 20, 2018, 02:54:06 AM
Got the board laminated and inserts in over the weekend
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 20, 2018, 07:02:34 PM
Is that deck sunken?

Also, how do you finish these? Is it rattle can or a sprayer? I'm going to paint my wings but I'm considering leaving the mast black since it can't off gas and balloon.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 20, 2018, 11:46:33 PM
Yes this one has a deck recess, The wings I do the same as a board hotcoat and then a clear wings I sometimes do with a can if I don’t have a gun out.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on February 22, 2018, 06:03:14 AM
Wow! That is awesome. For some reason I think it needs a Batman logo...
What are you doing for lamination schedules on the mast and wings?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 22, 2018, 12:05:10 PM
Wow! That is awesome. For some reason I think it needs a Batman logo...
What are you doing for lamination schedules on the mast and wings?

5layers of 6oz top and bottom on the wings the mast I forget now but as much carbon as possible really, you want it to all be rock solid between the board and the wing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on February 22, 2018, 07:18:49 PM
Thanks guys!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 22, 2018, 08:34:54 PM
Ok so now I gotta lay more carbon on my mast lol. I guess if I got it I should use it.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 06, 2018, 11:43:35 AM
Just about finished up the latest Sup foil board so cut myself a little 5’ prone blank this eve

http://youtu.be/ddNGSf5_sjw
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on March 06, 2018, 08:38:13 PM
Right on Charlie!
Thanks for the inspiration, it helped me to keep going tonight.
I found myself slabbing off some foam for a set of wings.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 07, 2018, 02:31:46 AM
Good work good to see a few outher building there own now. For hotwireing blanks if you use templates like bellow it’s alot easier to get nice leading and trailing edges  and stops things moving around and even easier when you have the cnc to cut the templates and airfoil tools to get your profiles.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on March 07, 2018, 04:16:09 AM
Thanks Charlie.

Yes, I got so excited that it came together between Airfoiltools.com and Fusion360 and my general work holding concept and then finding enough scrap to CNC so as not to have to go buy plywood...that I totally forgot about a lead-in and lead-out section for the hot wire. I have recoverd from this in the past by gluing a small extra piece onto the template.

It has me thinking, could one 3D print the airfoil templates provided one used metal bobbins from a sewing machine to keep the hot wire from melting the plastic on the templates? I remember reading on Sway's that some folks use bobbins cored with the tips from a wire-feed welding gun to keep the wire in the center of the bobbin. One would have to figure in the offset from template to foam and from center of bobbin to desired airfoil shape.

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 07, 2018, 05:29:48 AM
could do I suppose however you would need a good size printer to get it all on. for years I just cut them out of formica or  thin mdf which I sealed the edge with superglue, you can also use thin aluminum sheet just make sure the surface is super smooth so the wire glides nice and you don't get bumps in your foam.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on March 07, 2018, 04:00:45 PM
Charlie, do you (or anyone, open mic) see any advantage in cutting wings by moving the wire around he templates with the foam clamped or moving the foam and templates around a clamped wire? The way my work is set up I can do either.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 07, 2018, 04:07:39 PM
I move the wire using the weighted lever method with a series of pulleys you can adjust the speed at ether end to get the perfect speed for tapers, it a comon setup in the rc plane world 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 07, 2018, 08:59:58 PM
Keeping my eye out for a variac and watching this post closely.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Surfside on March 08, 2018, 04:07:35 AM
Got one from here for 55.00 https://www.circuitspecialists.com/variac-variable-ac-ps05kva.html
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on March 08, 2018, 04:41:20 AM
I think I am going to take Charlie's advice and play out the lead-in and lead-out of the template.
It is pretty easy to do in CAD as the geometry is there, it just needs to be tweaked.

The variac in my pictures is from work. I am not sure if I'd do a variac or lab power supply if I were to set up to do more of these.

I read up on the model airplane rigs. They seem neat, much like a parallel rule in drafting, but more pulleys and baubles than I want to do right now. So I think I will clamp the work and start in the middle and pull towards the edges.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 08, 2018, 04:54:13 AM
If you can get a second pair of hand the best way to do the taperer is to mark each end in to 1/4 or 1/8 segments the call out to each other when you get to each one so you can keep in time and get to the Le at the same time. If you don’t you tend to get a curve in the profile simarly if you go to fast the wire will drag and you will get a curve in your surface.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 08, 2018, 06:47:56 AM
Managed to finish the new sup yesterday and got a quick session on it this morning, want to play with a few of the foil setting just to dial it in but for a first surf I was supper stoked, so much more nimble even compared to my 7'4 you do however loose a little glide however I do have a design in the pipeline that will be along the same principals but a little more down wind specific.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on March 08, 2018, 09:20:36 AM
I love the selfie Charlie! Lots of joy on your face with the new board.
Thanks for the hot wire tips.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 08, 2018, 11:42:39 PM
cheers im pretty hard on myself and if a board doesn't feel good it bugs the hell out of me so I have to build another almost straight away so when make a big leap and get on a board that instantly feels right the stoke is strong! that said im never really satisfied there are already a few micro changes I want to try but I can probably do that without needing to build a hole new board this time

here is clip from the boards first wave, like I say it was tiny and its a trick wave to foil as its a super narrow wave in a river mouth and the sand bars and currents do all sorts of crazy things to it but I normally have it all to myself in the area that's best for the foil.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fKE6fRSjMM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fKE6fRSjMM)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on March 10, 2018, 09:02:19 AM
I went after the wings with the modified templates.
It is all as Charlie said, four hands would have been easier.
Some spackle and sanding will be required.
I might consider some 'softer' wing tips after reading Pono's latest thread asking for safer designs.
Hope people are OK with my decentralized posts, just trying to acknowledge where I am getting ideas and stoke the choir...
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on March 10, 2018, 09:06:54 AM
Nice wirejob. Are you aiming for a clark-Y type foil?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on March 10, 2018, 09:34:27 AM
Thanks Bill. I was shooting for a 4412 with 2.1sqft (1950 sqcm) area to boost 300 pounds at 5.3mph.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 10, 2018, 10:20:10 AM
I went after the wings with the modified templates.
It is all as Charlie said, four hands would have been easier.
Some spackle and sanding will be required.
I might consider some 'softer' wing tips after reading Pono's latest thread asking for safer designs.
Hope people are OK with my decentralized posts, just trying to acknowledge where I am getting ideas and stoke the choir...

That’s not bad for a first go I normally mess up a few before I get a nice one if I have not done them in a while. That’s the classic one side finishing before the other on the leading edge, try cutting the other way perhaps and Finnish at the TE, but like you say you can easily make those work as you want a rounded leading edge anyway
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 10, 2018, 09:19:39 PM
Jrandy, I like you popping in here and there. It's like a scavenger hunt.

Wanna see this all come together. There are so many good builds going on here.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 18, 2018, 01:49:42 PM
Been busy working on the new prone board as we have had a anouther spell of very cold weather with very few waves. Hoping to get the probe board finished this week and with the excuse of using up offcuts of foam I have cut a new dw foilboard over the weekend
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 22, 2018, 01:49:43 AM
Grabbed this interesting picture of facebook of a gofoil maliko 160 which clearly shows the construction and the airfoil profile. defiantly not the 100% carbon foil the claim it to be.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 22, 2018, 01:52:39 AM
two other pics
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 22, 2018, 02:20:06 AM
Interesting, so 100% means 100% of the fabric is carbon but not solid carbon. Explains the floatation.

I don't see a problem with this actually. The leading and trailing edges are solid. Makes me feel better about my construction now too.

Wonder what the mast looks like.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 22, 2018, 02:33:55 AM
yes I would not have expected it to 100% solid carbon except maybe the mast, I was expecting perhaps the wing to be hollow but 100% carbon, like you say I have no doubt all the cloth is 100% carbon but the foil as a entirety does not look like it. I expect the mast is the same, I think beasho said he has seen a broken one.   
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: opie on March 22, 2018, 08:01:30 AM
Is that two kinds of foam in the middle?  Can you guys guess what they are?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 22, 2018, 10:16:13 AM
My guess would be a high density core like airex and the expanding epoxy around it, it doesn’t appear to be a very close tolerance core though. Not sure what the Black leading and trailingedge are could be carbon or just adhesive.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on March 22, 2018, 11:15:28 AM
Most of the wing construction I've seen, including my own, leaves a lot to be desired in terms of rigidity, weight, strength and cost to produce. I'm reluctant to take on another project, but I have some ideas, expanding on the conversation in the "Safer Foils" thread to potentially improve those factors and make the parts safer to use at the same time. I guess I'll build a couple of prototypes in Hood River. The ideas are too seductive to let lie.

I've been reading up on molding polyurethane. I've done silicone molds before to make suspension bushings for race cars. The materials available have increased dramatically in sophistication. Combining 3D printing to make the plugs and choosing the right materials could yield semi-production parts quickly and cheaply. I"m thinking standardized two-piece core for both wings and mast with plug-in attachment and fuselage and mounting system (plate or Tuttle) and replaceable leading and trailing edges of cast urethane.

For the wing it's a core with the upper and lower surfaces curved to good foil shape, modified by attachable leading and trailing edges. The core can be made with a modest lateral curve to start the anhedral with plug-in wingtips cast in stiff urethane to finish the curve. The surface area of the foil can be added to with wider leading and trailing edges. The stiffness of the trailing edge can be set to provide a decrease in lift and drag with higher speeds. The trailing edge can be cambered to increase lift and then the camber decreases at higher speed by flexing flatter. The Shore value of poured urethane is highly variable and parts can be cast that are stiff in one place and flexible in another.

It's more parts, which usually means more expense, but they are much simpler parts that are very easy to make with precision.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 25, 2018, 05:37:44 PM
Pono, there are a ton of different durometers of 3D printable materials now too for prototypes. You could test the theory by printing up a few leading and trailing edge pieces. That way you can experiment without having to make molds.

Check some of the new TPU's.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on March 25, 2018, 09:56:36 PM
I plan to print the prototype molded parts (leading and trailing edges for wing and mast), but I'll probably use them to make the molds rather than try to print them in the resilience I want. The wingtips will be printed I suspect, though I might have better choices for molded than printed. Certainly, polycarbonate would be strong enough but I can do glass or carbon filled parts in molding.

There's certainly a lot of choices for printing--nothing like the old PLA or nothing that the early printers supported. Actually, none of my current printers will do Polycarb. In theory, I could update the printheads, in practice, I bought too early.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on March 30, 2018, 04:04:23 PM
I,ve made a few SUP foils so far and I would guess most of us wish to find the fastest, easiest and least expensive method to keep experimentation going.  I’ll share some pictures if all goes well with this forum thing since I am new to this whole deal.   From what I’ve read it is also very important to make strong wings that are of very precise dimensions with regards to maintaining the same foil shape from root to tip.   
Using 24K (x2) carbon fiber tow( can be found for $30 for 3-4 lbs on eBay)an endoskeleton is created between 3mm plywood wing profiles.  These ply wing profiles are hot glued onto a mold of desired anhedral.  This keeps them in place while “lacing the wing with these twisted and epoxy infused carbon fiber cords(36 cords per wing,approx)  This skeleton comes out perfect every time to exact specifications.  Once cured the spaces between the ply wing profiles can then be filled with 2 part foam , microspheres with epoxy,  or any other filler which offers the appropriate strength and lightness..  I use 3 different densities depending upon location.  Most is ultralight 2 part polyurethane expanding foam. 
Once all is filled and faired out with microballoons and epoxy the wing is already strong enough to surf.  Sounds hard but compared to many other methods it is accomplished in very little time .  Once wrapped in a layer or two of glass, it is more than strong enough.  So now we have both an endoskeleton and an exoskeleton.  The single layer of carbon cloth I finally wrap or just use alone without the glass is mostly cosmetic.  I just finished 2 wings that took me less time than 1 wing by my previous method.(carved plywood).  I will attempt to post pictures but don’t hold your breath, I’m an idiot when it comes to this stuff.

It all seemed so easy until I tried to attach pictures.  If anyone has any advice, I’d appreciate it.  My files are too large, even for one photo.  I’ll just post my description for now and hope I can post pics later.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on March 30, 2018, 04:39:01 PM
Here is a photo of laced wing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on March 30, 2018, 04:42:35 PM
another photo
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on March 30, 2018, 05:10:03 PM
One more
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on March 30, 2018, 05:16:56 PM
Ahh! One more
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on March 30, 2018, 05:20:40 PM
I'm getting good at this now
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on March 30, 2018, 05:37:36 PM
Las one, I promise
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 30, 2018, 09:09:49 PM
Ingenuity, I love it. I'm not sure how you came up with this, but I'm impressed.

Can you speak to the start of the process? I'm not sure how you would keep the ribs standing up or how the ends are anchored or is the tow already cured in resin when you put them in? Are they wet with unfurled resin or cured, like sticks?

This would be a great video. Grab a phone or a GoPro (or grab some young person to do it for you) and get this out there. It's really cool man.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on March 31, 2018, 04:08:38 AM
     Well, to start you need a form which will follow the anhedral of the bottom side of the wing.  Each wing segment is scroll  sawed from 3mm ply based upon the airfoil shape you require.   The pattern of 1/8 inch holes is then drilled into each plywood wing segment.  Once done, these wing segments are hot glued, bottom down, to the anhedral shaped form.  This holds them in place for the next process.
I use one 24K piece of carbon fiber tow, folded in half and long enough to thread through entire width of wing.  Tie a knot at the folded end.   At the other end  use a tightly wrapped layer of scotch tape to make the cord ends easy to thread through holes in wing segmnets.  Like the hard ends on shoelaces.  Before threading the cord, it must be wet out with epoxy resin.   Slow cure resin helps since lacing the wing will take 3 hrs or so.  Wet out one at a time, thread it through first hole,  then twist the cord 10-15 times before threading through the other holes.  The knot will keep one end in place.  Small clamps, small clothspins or i use surgical instruments kold the other end.  Do it again, until you are done.   So you are threading a very flexible, damp, twisted piece of carbon fiber. Once cured, the entire wing can then be removed from the anhedral form.  be sure not to use too much hot glue.  Just enough to hold them in place.
     With the laced wing removed I then turn it over, bottom side up and loosely lay a piece of wet out 6 oz fiberglass.  It helps to let this glass layer drape down between the wing segments so it rest on the carbon laces. let it cure in this upside down position.
     Once cured,  I then cut out the space in the wing center where I will need to insert the square carbon tube that the fuselage will fit into.  Making sure its square to wing and of proper angle of attack(1-3 degrees) I use a very dense filler(milled fibers, wood flour) to attach cut carbon cords to inserted piece.  Let cure.
     Placing wing back onto anhedral form, I then fill the segments.  The very ends I fill with a high strength filler.  Around the fuselage insert, I use a lighter mix of microballoons and milled fiber,  the rest is 2 part expanding polyurethabe.  It ends up being pretty light since most strength is gained from internal skeleton.
     Sand or file to shape than recoat with microballoons. Keep sanding. You will be amazed at how strong this wing is even without its glass skin or carbon cloth. 
      I then vacuum bag a layer of 6oz fiberglass before adding 1 layer of 3K carbon twill.  Sometimes i omit the fiberglass and just go with the carbon cloth.
      As with all my wings, they tend to be overbuilt and with some experimenting one could build more flex into the system and make them even lighter. 
     Hope this helps!
     

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: opie on March 31, 2018, 05:24:16 AM
I think you win the prize for coolest construction method. :)

Are you happy with the square carbon tube connection method?  Is your fuselage tapered or do you get a tight enough fit without taper? Thanks.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on March 31, 2018, 05:35:01 AM
     Non tapered so that I can adjust the distance between the mast and the wing.  Forward wing  position for pumping, back position for increased stability.  Its too bad all this lacing must be covered up with filler and carbon.  It looks real cool as it is.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: 808sup on March 31, 2018, 09:47:47 AM
Great work Peter! I enjoy the pictures and the description of each. When I first saw the lacing my thinking was “ how long did that take? “ 3 hrs is some work! However the results look amazing.
What is the finished weight of a wing that size?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on March 31, 2018, 11:20:56 AM
Very cool. Those plywood ribs would be a cinch to knock out with the new Glowforge Laser cutter I've got gathering dust in the garage. I need it for my shop in Hood River but I haven't got much use for it in Maui.

That lacing technique looks familiar, but I can't recall where I've seen something similar.

Carbon tow is pretty remarkable stuff. I've used it freeform with the threads spread out as a decorative strengthener for glass. It works surprisingly well just laid sparsely on and swirled around with a chopstick or a paintbrush. You might try it with a clear fiberglass version of your wing. I bet you could make a wing that's at least partly see-through/hollow. Art project.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on March 31, 2018, 12:35:03 PM
Not sure about the weight since I do not own a very accurate scale.  Probably a little more than a kai go foil due to the increase in structural support.  I have a little play using a non-tapered fuselage insert but I plan on shimming it out some more with some filler.  I like the idea of being able to change the wing position fore and aft.  Gives me something to experiment with.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 31, 2018, 06:43:34 PM
Thanks for the detail, I get it now. One more question.  You knot the first end and you mention that the other end is held with clamps. What do you do to secure it so the clamps can release? Or, do you lay them against the last rib so the resin holds them once it kicks?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: LM on March 31, 2018, 10:38:12 PM
Not sure about the weight since I do not own a very accurate scale.  Probably a little more than a kai go foil due to the increase in structural support.  I have a little play using a non-tapered fuselage insert but I plan on shimming it out some more with some filler.  I like the idea of being able to change the wing position fore and aft.  Gives me something to experiment with.

What a cool/unique technique! If you want to shave a bit of weight you could try using divinycell (or similar foam) for the ribs. If you brushed them with epoxy they'd be plenty sturdy for the rest of the production & they'd be really easy to cut out too, and bond really well with the glass.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on April 01, 2018, 03:25:49 AM
I use a tiny bit of cellophane/plastic wrap under the clamps or you could just push a pointed tooth pick of appropriate size into the hole with the cord to pinch it in place.  When cured just cut them off.  I really like the idea of the divinicell wing profiles,  Ill have to try that.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on April 01, 2018, 03:58:22 AM
Very nice. Are you designing the wings in CAD or is it a more manual process?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on April 01, 2018, 04:11:57 AM
I tried the CAD thing but I found it to be a waste of time since I already know what I'm aiming for.  I just draw up planshapes according to the surface area I need and use different thickness wings based upon their use.ie - behind boats, large waves, small waves, river waves....
My goal was to create a strong wing as quickly and inexpensively as possible in order to test and tweek.  Without using carbon I can create a usable  wing for what I'm guessing is about $30-50.00.  If you are lucky , carbon fiber 24K tow can be found in large 4 lb rolls for $30-40.00.  This one roll could probably make 30 wings?  Maybe more?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on April 01, 2018, 10:07:12 AM
Las one, I promise

This is fascinating. I like the idea of a see-through foil, just for the look.

I also like the abrupt changes in sweep in the leading edge. If you wanted smoother, you could notch the ribs then fit in a piece of rod forced to conform to the curve, or a pre-shaped piece of wood. Lay out some of your twisted tow to make your rod.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on April 01, 2018, 11:48:48 AM
Great idea about using cured rods of 48K tow bent over to form curves.  Ill have to try that.  I also have some 2mm coremat which would make great stuff for wing profile templates instead of using plywood. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on April 03, 2018, 10:40:35 PM
How does coremat work? It looks like heavy felt fabric online. Would you cut it to shape then laminate fibre on each side while laying flat?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on April 04, 2018, 12:14:27 PM
just wet it out, let it cure, cut to shape, drill it, glue wing profile template to anhedral form, lace it.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on April 12, 2018, 07:38:26 AM
A noticeable benefit of using both an endoskeleton and an exoskeleton is the ability to make very thin wing sections with considerable strength.  Anyone have experience with longish winglets?  I can always grind them back if they prove to be of no benefit.  Next step is vacuum bagging some carbon onto these wings.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on May 05, 2018, 02:24:04 PM
I thought I'd give the laced wing technique a try in creating my new short mast.  I am curious to see just how many layers of carbon it will take to make this stiff enough.  My original mast took 12 layers of 6oz fiberglass covered with 7 layers of 3K carbon twill, 45/90.  All this over 10mm of plywood/glass core.  The short mast should make surfing river waves a bit easier since most of the major turbulence is near the river bottom.  Very much liking the new foil on rivers and behind boats,  have not yet had it in the surf.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on May 05, 2018, 02:33:17 PM
Here is the finished foil.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 08, 2018, 07:34:23 PM
Nice! What did the mast end up taking to stiffen it up?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on May 10, 2018, 09:48:09 AM
Its still in the bag but I'm pretty sure the 3 layers of 6 oz glass  and the 3 layers of 3K carbon cloth is going to be enough.  I'll let you know as soon as it cures.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on May 10, 2018, 10:59:16 AM
nice work mate, gotta be the coolest looking construction method out! what are the fibre orientations on the mast? my one has 6x 300g fibreglass double bias wrapped around a 10mm foam core and 6x 200g  carbon unis running the length. its pretty good deflection wise but still has a bit of twist when using the super mega wing, definitely carbon double bias would have solved this

edit- found a core sample from when i shortened the mast height and increased the cord, looks like i added another 3 or 4 layers of unis for a total of ~16 layers. no wonder it wont break!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on May 10, 2018, 11:56:42 AM
With a good deal of cord lacing of the internal skeleton in all direction(36 cords in all) I was able to achieve considerable stiffness both longitudinally and rotationally.  I usually lay both glass and carbon in 45 and 90 degree orientations.  For this mast I only needed to lay them longitudinally.  Again, I will take it out of the bag when I get out of work. Hopefully it's good and solid and I won't need any more layers.  Let you know later.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on May 10, 2018, 04:00:24 PM
Foil is out of the bag.  Excess is trimmed and I'm satisfied.  Very stiff while supported at each end with my 155 lbs standing on middle.  I am unable to appreciate any twist but I truly will not know until I fashion the adapters to fit the board and fuselage.  Thickness- 14.9mm x 122mm x 68.6 cm.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on May 10, 2018, 04:23:33 PM
Here is a pic of the end I will be embedding into filler to fit tuttle box.  Not very symmetrical atr this point since it will be inside of board.  Just to give you an idea of skin thickness.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on May 10, 2018, 04:39:23 PM
Hi Container,  Just wondering what your mast dimensions are.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on May 11, 2018, 11:53:53 AM
man you can really see the difference vacuum bagging makes to the lam thickness. are you going to make a standard tuttle box fitting? my mast is 115mm x 22mm x 650mm + 80mm for the box fitting
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on May 11, 2018, 12:12:34 PM
finally got motivated to put my foil back together after 6 months of gathering dust, just in time for winter here in nz  ???

I didnt like the small curvy tips on the main wing so off they came and on went an extra 440mm of wing span (41 inches now), the shape of them is just to maximize the surface area while still keeping the lines relatively smooth from the existing foil. they are laminated on with just one layer of 400g double bias cloth to give them a bit of flex while pumping. i also reduced the angle of attack on the main foil by about 2-3 degrees so its a bit less draggy while paddling.

the fuselage then got extended by 80mm and turned the rear wing mount upside down to get the wing more into the accelerated flow off the main wing
i must say its pretty incredible how much extra lift and thrust you get from a small increase in wing size!
theres also a new 6'6 sup and a gofoil maliko tail foil mould in the glassing bay but youll have to wait for that
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: kiwi on May 11, 2018, 02:25:21 PM
Such a small world we live in, didn't realise you lived so close container, I recognise the esplanade in the background of one of your photos.
I live in manly too, also trying to build a foil with much less success than your's.

Seriously cool that on a small global forum I find someone who lives in the same area  ;D
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on May 13, 2018, 01:16:22 PM
41 inch wing span! Crazy wide.  Do you notice increased torque against your feet from side to side.  I just might have to try a wing with increased span.  The Maliko ,I believe, is 32 inches and I thought that was really wide.  my first wing was 28 inches.  My new wings are 25 inches wide.  I have found that most of my foils for SUP end up being too fast and I'm now looking for ways to slow them down.  a speed that more closely matches the speed of the wave would be easier to keep in the correct position on the wave. More likely it is probably due to my lack of ability.  Its all fun anyway. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on May 15, 2018, 11:39:22 AM
you will have to come out for a session with us one day kiwi!
 supeter yup 41 inches is crazy hard to turn when you dont have a tow line in your hands to lever off. i think its more to do with the sweep angle of the wing though, the tips are pretty much behind the mast.
slowing them down is easy, thicker wings! they are also alot more forgiving when it comes to pitch angle and speed (or lack of)
heres a little clip from my first day on the big wing. not sure where my balance went at the end of the run, probably the same magical land where all the video quality went  ::)

 <iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/269926702" width="640" height="356" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe>
<p><a href="https://vimeo.com/269926702">flight</a> from <a href="https://vimeo.com/user62288090">Jordan Harkin</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on May 16, 2018, 01:01:01 PM
bugger
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 16, 2018, 09:37:36 PM
Nooooooo!!!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Newps on May 17, 2018, 04:02:10 PM
Welcome to the world of foiling.  Break..repair...break...repair....and repeat...:0.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on May 17, 2018, 05:29:44 PM
Great video!  Nice bit of pumping!  Looks very efficient.  I had to put 2 extra layers of 45 degree 3K carbon on the mast.  Very stiff but had a little too much twist.  All is good now and needed to cover the fairing from mast to insert portions anyway.  Looking forward to getting the short mast on the local river wave and also think it will make ocean wave foiling a fair bit easier.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on May 18, 2018, 04:37:22 PM
Forgot to ask you, Container.  Could you please tell me more about the foil with the Leading Edge Protuberances.  Is it a prototype  and how did it work?  Looks really cool.  Could be just the ticket for decreasing speed(increased drag) and inhibiting stall.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on May 24, 2018, 11:25:56 AM
its ok, great in the surf because of the 'M' curve in the wing and the extra weight of the plywood core but the bumps are proving quite hard to get right, the key to a good whale fin is its natural unfairness which im finding extremely hard to shape so i am just going to give up and fill them in
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on August 09, 2018, 08:14:52 AM
Got a start on the new extra large rear wing.  I'm hoping it helps with pumping.  22" wide. 3.5" front to back, tapered.  GOE 180 wing profile.  Good thing waves in the east only come sporadically.  Id never have time for all these projects.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on August 09, 2018, 08:16:24 AM
After lacing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on August 09, 2018, 08:07:24 PM
I’m still fascinated by this construction technique. I really have to see some footage of these flying. I know in my head it should be strong but it just seems crazy that it works.

We need a full build thread and video on these things. I have way too many questions for the occasional post.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPeter on August 10, 2018, 10:47:08 AM
A little too busy as of late but when all my projects are complete I'll try to make a video or something .  At least a walk through with photos.  All I can say is the strength of both lift wing and stabilizer has impressed me.  The more cords one uses in as many vector directions as possible, the better.  With thin wings like the stabilizers I fill with a mix of milled fibers and micro-balloons . I then cover these with 2 layers of glass and two layers of carbon(45 and 90 degrees).  If you noticed, the wing in photos will be flown tips pointed up.  I,ve just laced another wing of the same size and dimensions with wings angling down.  Experimenting with a rear stabilizer that aerates prior to main wing thereby causing the front wing to descend automatically.  I did this some time ago and had a fair bit of luck.   Probably only to be used downwinding.
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