Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: Wetstuff on February 02, 2016, 02:16:34 PM
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I picked up a second Werner Gran Prix M1000 from a local. I really like this paddle. At 15.6oz (443g) it's nearly 30% lighter than another big name paddle I have and far better balanced. The blade shape is not heavily pear-shaped so I bang rails less with it. ..manly sized shaft ..yatta-yatta.
I have to cut one tho'. They're both 78" ..a full Shaka over my head. I will keep one long for flatwater but seem more comfortable at about 72" in surf. (I'm 5-11) Assuming it was put together with epoxy, I hit it with heat from a commercial heat gun. I warmed up the joint pretty good ..to no avail.
I have motorized sharp stuff but I thought perhaps one you have been down this path and can share. Thanks.
Jim
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Carbon or Plastic Handle? I ask because heating the plastic makes a bad design even worse leading to breakage.
Anyway it's likely the carbon. The handle inserts 2" into the ID of the paddle shaft. So cut the paddle 2" from the joint (maybe add 1/4") then using a right angle grinder or a sander carefully grind off a section of the shaft just down to the handle. Then then thin down or grind the opposite side down to the handle and peel off the shaft from the handle. Don't forget to wear a dust mask as carbon dust is very bad for you!
If you screw up you can always buy a new handle but Warner does not sell them directly to the public. You have to go through a dealer. I think the carbon handles are around $45 last I checked.
Werner has a link on their website for cutting shafts and the recommended glues to attach the handle.
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I've shortened my Werner several times. Used a heat gun while twirling the shaft. Took a while but the handle eventually pulled right out. Kept the heat off the handle and the shaft got pretty warm, but it'll come. Love the Werners.
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Jim.... you are a talent with material, so I am sure you can handle the heat gun, but just a warning.... too much heat weakens the carbon, from what I hear.
If the heat doesn't work for you, try this:
I cut down a werner I got from Stoney a few years ago
I cut the shaft below the handle plug, then I took a hacksaw blade (no saw) and cut a slit up the piece of shaft epoxied to the handle.
I inserted a flat blade screwdriver into the slit and pried the shaft bit off, a little at a time.
It didn't take too long to work around and finely pop the shaft bit off the handle.
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A pot of boiling water is sometimes more effective than a heat gun for getting the handle off (DJ trick). But as STC said, don't over do it.
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Thanks guys. I knew that crab pot would come handy for something; it's on the boil! Thanks Bean. I tend to use a framing hammer to pound a tack (short attention span ..need to hurry) so advice to 'take it easy' is well given.
??.. I guess I must be a F-ing hoarder; rather than cut the handle off and chip off the ferrule bit like Creek says ..I want to preserve the full length?! (I have three others if someone needs one...) Jeeez... Cheers.
Jim
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Boiling - No Go. It spent about 15min in the tub at a standing boil. I measured the temp of the shaft at the handle when I pulled it out: 150f. The one noticeable change: the surface of the handle and about the first 4" of the shaft were 'blushed'. ..as goofy as I look in the lineup this is not an issue.
Staman.. they do a excellent job of hiding that resource. I understand supporting dealers, but not all of us need someone to do it for us, or live close to a dealer. Thanks for reminding me to use the mask.
Chop saw - here we come.
Jim
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I've done it with a chop saw then follow Creeks plan works for me
Beauty of KeNalu this is never a problem
JimK
Extreme Windsurfing
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Since I typically would rather break something further that have someone else fix.. I did both. I 'broke' the shiny finish by boiling it off ..and then as a real American, went-got a heavier hammer ..'n-fix'dit.
(http://wetstuff.com/ideas/Werner1.jpg)
Thank the Larid for cheap, infrequent use tools from Harbor Freight...
(http://wetstuff.com/ideas/Werner2.jpg)
Rather than trusting Starman (should have), I lopped off a large chunk and ran a rule inside 'till I hit the insert.
(http://wetstuff.com/ideas/Werner3.jpg)
I took a cutoff wheel and scored the shaft to see if I could get a chisel under an edge to break the shaft bit free - uh-uh. (in the picture below you can see my first cut; I forgot how thin the shaft was ..ooops)
(http://wetstuff.com/ideas/Werner4.jpg)
God this is messy! ..like carbon is magnetic. It's a damn good thing I did it outside. After fiddling in an attempt at holding this level I found it better to hold the handle about 45deg at the front, round end of the belt and lightly twirl it.
I used the cutoff to check-fit it ..nice an snug. Hot glue is next. Cheers.
Jim
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Is it too late to suggest that 15min at a standing boil is too long? Remind me not to eat lobster at your place ;D
In any case, it looks like you are getting to the right place...
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Jeez, what a mess. What's the ID of that shaft? If it's somewhere larger than 0.92" you can hot glue an extended or standard Ke Nalu handle in there. I know Lane still sells them individually. I've made a shim out of a chunk of shaft to fit a Ke Nalu before. You take the piece and cut in lengthwise, then make a second cut about a 1/4" or so that permits you to compress the section and slip in into the shaft. You can epoxy the shim in permanently and then hot glue the Ke Nalu handle in.
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Bill, Since both you and Big Jim brought it up.. The next paddle to get folded into a package resale deal here is a Ke Nalu. It's the one I find too heavy and unbalanced by comparison of four other brands I have, the KN blade is only 8% lighter than a molded plastic one.
So I am not blowing smoke up your nether region.. I elevated the paddle's blades about 13" and placed the blade on a pretty accurate scale in a attempt to somewhat unweight the effect of the shaft and handle. (all below - done the same)
Aqua Bound Adjustable - plastic blade:17.3oz Total weight: (incl. carbon shaft/handle): 28.4oz
K-N - carbon blade:15.9oz Total weight: (incl. shaft/handle): 22.4oz
Kialoa Methane - carbon blade:14.9oz Total weight*: (incl. shaft/handle): 24.3oz
Rivera R9 - carbon blade:12oz Total weight: (incl. shaft/handle): 17.6oz
Werner Grand Prix M1000 - carbon blade:9.3oz Total weight: (incl. shaft/handle): 15.2oz
For me, good balance is when my lower hand does not feel as if there is seaweed on my blade out of the water.
...and I did get the Werner handle to fit back into the shaft. Hate to add this.. but I also really like the Werner handle. I rotated the KN handle a number of times (thanks to hot glue) to find a more comfortable position - could not find it. The basic T-handle on the Methane is fine, the KN was like stuck half in/half out from being a cup or a T.
And.. I like lighter!
Jim
*the Methane has a 3" hardwood plug/epoxy repair about 3/4 up the shaft as I fell and busted it.
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No idea how you got such a heavy one. I just weighed my Konihi at 83 inches with an extended ergo-T handle and a bunch of hockey tape on it--509 grams = 16.4 ounces. the only loose blade I have kicking around is a Maliko xTuf, which is a heavier blade--226 grams = 7.97 ounces. No idea what you got going there, but that's nowhere near typical Ke Nalu weight. For a long time the Ke Nalu and ZRX paddles were the lightest you could buy.
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Jimmy Jimmy Jimmy...... a freeking cutoff saw???? (wheres the Emoji dude with the horrified look?)
I said hacksaw blade - sans hacksaw. for a reason. it is slow.... and incremental.... so in as how you don't be gashing the handle :'(
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Hey Fellas, I have a handful of Werner paddles, love them. I've always shortened them in a chop saw. The secret to this is a sharp blade in the saw, preferably a finish quality blade, and not a rough blade meant for cutting framing material. The next trick is to have the paddle blade absolutely static, not allowing it to move, or shift during the cut. This can be done by hand, but also can be accomplished with a clamp. Finally, get the blade up to full rpm's before plunging it into the shaft, and make contact with the shaft slowly and evenly.
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Still not a good idea, even if you know what you're doing. The wide kerf means lots of carbon particle tossed around, the blade exiting the material can pull fibers from the matrix. The recommended approach for cutting carbon shafts from manufacturers and every other source I know of is a hacksaw. cutting along a guide--I prefer a few wraps of tape. With minimal pressure on the forward stroke, none on the back stroke (opposite to usual hacksaw technique), rotating the shaft as you score it and going slightly deeper with each rotation until the shaft falls apart. I've used motorized thin kerf abrasive blades and don't like the result--less control, more chipping, more crap in the air.
Don't discount the crap in the air part, carbon shards are wicked, even microscopic. As nasty as asbestos.
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A while back someone posted that they had success cutting paddle shafts with a wet-saw. That might make some sense, but only if you clean up the saw and tub before it dries and the fibers become airborne.
I have personally used a 10" miter saw with a 60 tooth carbide blade, clean and square but apparently not so healthy...
Next time, I'll try my tile saw.
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Bean, This little bugger is really great. The 6" blade is <3mm wide. HF item#61659 about $44.
(http://wetstuff.com/ideas/Saw1.jpg)
I don't think I could get a cleaner cut with anything else I have used the last couple of decades.
(http://wetstuff.com/ideas/Saw2.jpg)
Handles: I am a little odd. Things like socks that slide, scratchy labels, suits-n-ties and many things normal people probably take for granted can make me twitchy. SUP handles can be as annoying as a stone in my shoe.
I have medium-manly hands and many of these handles are not wide enough to suit me. The worst was an adjustable version of the Methane where the adjuster was a cable clamp in the center of the handle. It was child-sized. I hope the person who bought it along with the Olivetti typewriter at Good Will had a better use for it.
(http://wetstuff.com/ideas/Handle12.jpg)
The paddles didn't cooperate well when taking this shot, but the Methane and KN are ~4" wide ..which I find is great because I can fully top-control the twist of the shaft/blade. They are quite similar in their top-view front/back offsets. What I find more comfortable about the Methane is a straight top line. .. but both divide your fingers, contacting the shaft, when you grip it.
The Rivera also has a rounded head like the KN but that is somewhat offset by it being nice and thick front-to-back
~1-7/8" vs the KN ~1-3/8s
The Aqua Bound plastic* and Werner handles have deep finger ledges. It gives me the feeling of a much more secure grip. (as much as I flounder out there... I need something I can control!)
*they must share the shaft contractor with KN. They're remarkably similar (same..to this eye) both having that spiral, traction surface where you don't need any wax, etc ...a nice detail. Werner's shaft has a knobby surface texture when dry ..I don't remember if it got slippery-when-wet..
Anyway: 'Horses for courses'. Cheers.
Jim
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Actually more a matter of manufacturing technique rather than manufacturer, theough it may well be the same manufacturer. the spiral ridges are formed from wrapping mylar tape onto the shaft to compress it onto the mandrel. Like vacuum bagging without the vacuum or the bag.
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That's a pretty darn clean cut. Looks like a nice tool to have. 44 buck, my, my. Might have to score one of those when I get back to Harbor Freight Land. Nothing like that on Maui. Wear a mask when you cut though.
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I think I owe Ke Nalu an apology for my rant.. I had a conversation with Creek today where he mentioned a KN 'second'. Hmmm.. likely the cheapest b-tard posting here, I think I bought a 'second' 18-24mos ago... That would explain the extra weight; it was likely out of spec.
To sell off-spec goods, or not, is hard choice for a small business. As my stuff has lived/died in public for 37yrs.. I attempt to trash a bad item before I complete it, and if it gets out the door ..and I hear about it, replace it quick. The reaction mill is 100X more vocal these days. If I needed to sell seconds, I'd etch it 'Second' ..to remind the bugger he got a great deal it.
Jim
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That doesn't really explain it. The seconds are just finish flaws. Ke Nalu paddles are not clearcoated--they come out of the mold finished except for trimming flash. the seconds have some flaw that gets sanded and then the blade gets clearcoated, or the graphics slip. Nothing that would add more than a few grams of weight. there are no seconds for shafts or handles, just blades. At least that was so when I was a partner in the company, and I doubt that's changed.
There's something wrong.
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FYI, I weighed my Kenalu Konihi 95 blade while switching shafts and got 231g or 8 1/8 oz. With carbon 90 shaft and extended handle: 552g or 19 3/8 oz total.
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I've seen these used along with a hack saw to get a nice even cut, but I'm too cheap to pony up for one, instead I use a miter box I already own. Have to be a little more careful to get a square cut.
http://www.parktool.com/product/threadless-saw-guide-for-carbon-composite-forks-sg-8?category=Frame%20&%20Fork
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JS, Park makes the best bike tools, but in this case you could get the same results by simply attaching a ViseGrip to the discard end of the steerer tube and letting the jaws act as a saw guide.
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Any update to this, I'm thinking about cutting my Werner Rip Stick down from 1" OH to 1" below. I've cut a ton of KeNalu's but never a Werner, and it's epoxyed together (I asked too late to get it hot glued instead).
Any tips?