Standup Zone Forum

General Category => Random => Topic started by: PonoBill on January 24, 2016, 06:44:42 PM

Title: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on January 24, 2016, 06:44:42 PM
I tagged this onto the downhill video, but shouldn't have. Just being lazy.

Here's my latest project. Built this yesterday. It's a cheap fatbike ($250 from K-Mart) mated to a REALLY good Chinese crank drive electric. These Bafang BBS02 drives are beautifully engineered. This is the new 100mm, version that fits most fatbike bottom brackets. I had to cut 15mm off my braket to fit it, which would be shameful with an expensive fatbike but for $250 it's no biggie. The power electronics are in the drive, so there's just one waterproof harness for the control circuits, one for the battery and one for the speed sensor. Super clean installation and a TON of power. 1200 watts peak, 750 continuous. Highly configurable and very good UART control system (tons of info available on line). Or just stick it together and ride with default settings (like limited to 20MPH). Super powerful, especially with the seven speed gearing on my cheapo. Even has discs. 

The 100 mm versions are hard to come by here, no one wants to ship them to Maui, so I bought 11 of them straight from Bafang and imported them. If someone wants one on the Hawaiian Islands I'll sell it to you at my cost. I don't know exactly what that is, but it's somewhere around $600. I had plans to do something exotic with them, but other priorities arose. If you're on the mainland you can get these pretty easily for about $700, but be sure you're getting the right length for the bottom bracket. Standard is 68mm, but most fatbikes are either 100 or 112.

Got to be the cheapest way possible to build an electric fatbike with a quality drive. I'll never build another hubmotor bike--too clumsy. The K-mart here in Maui has three of the model I used left in stock.

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ponostyle.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F01%2Ffatty1.png&hash=e19682229cd6f32ce935dfa8c1b08e7a)


(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ponostyle.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F01%2Ffatty2.png&hash=3ebb2b96a5b1616b9f5be480e681dfc6)


(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ponostyle.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F01%2Ffatty3.png&hash=2e09bf340b4f6c5610a07c8448385832)

I'm using three 14.8 V 5000ma RC LiPos to power mine. Super cheap way to do a fatbike battery if you already have a 4 channel LiPo charger. I already had four of the batteries for multicopters.  The photo shows 4 but I had to drop to 3--the drive errored out from overvoltage. Nice that it just says "sorry, can't do that" instead of just toasting. I'm eventually building a set of three batteries that will sit in parallel with two sets diode-isolated and one switchable as a spare. With 15 amps at an actual 50V it should give a lot of range. . 750 watt/hours, or about an hour at full power. More like two hours at 20 mph. Kind of bitchy to charge, but a few hundred bucks less than a standard bike battery and much lighter.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Subber on January 24, 2016, 07:04:31 PM
Nice!!!

Looking forward to the Ride Report.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on January 24, 2016, 08:15:49 PM
Rides great. I can break the rear wheel loose in dirt. Very zippy and super smooth. I don't like how the pedal assist system works. It's backwards. If you pedal lightly it supplies more power, when you pedal hard it backs off. I'm going to disconnect that or change the parameters in the controller. I prefer to throttle the power anyway. I think the automatic stuff is kind of dangerous.

I have the speed cutoff set at 20mph and the bike reaches that really quickly in second gear (with five to go). So I'm going to set that to thirty, though thirty MPH seems like time for a full helmet not just a bike one.

Got to say I LOVE the fat tires. Ways smoother than suspension bikes. Going to be fun on sand. It would be great in snow too.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: covesurfer on January 24, 2016, 09:23:30 PM
I gotta come over to Ponohouse and ride that thing. Seriously. I want to try it out.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: LB Surper on January 24, 2016, 09:49:56 PM
Curious, how are you packing the batteries so they don't get damaged while riding?
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: dabigkahuna on January 25, 2016, 08:37:47 AM
Nice!  Definitely on my list of fun things to build...
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on January 25, 2016, 08:56:18 AM
Curious, how are you packing the batteries so they don't get damaged while riding?

Eventually I'm going to enclose most if not all of the triangle in the center with a carbon box the width of one battery, which is about the width of the downtube. I'll fill the lower section with batteries. What kind is a bit of an open question. If I find I use this thing often then I'll do a big A123 array with a BMS (Battery management system) to handle charging. If it's just casual, occasional use I'll use LiPos and manually charge them. I can do four at a time in about half an hour with my current charger. Doing 12 (15 Amps if I put three series sets of three in [parallel) is no big deal if I'm just playing around.

Currently I built a little tray out of sheet metal that attaches to the bottle mount and holds my three batteries.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: TEX_SUP on January 25, 2016, 05:44:43 PM

Got to say I LOVE the fat tires. Ways smoother than suspension bikes. Going to be fun on sand. It would be great in snow too.

I run mine at 4 psi in the soft stuff, works great!

I ditched the stock tires and went with Vee Rubber Missions 26x4". Almost a pound less rotating mass each tire.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: starman on January 25, 2016, 06:04:32 PM
Looks good. I am wondering just how long the Kmart spec drive train lasts with all that torque. May want to include an iPhone charge port so as not to get stranded.

Although I half expected to see your name associated with a project like this;

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/25/464322851/dont-blink-robot-solves-rubiks-cube-in-just-over-1-second


Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on January 25, 2016, 06:39:10 PM
Seriously impressive. When the zombies come, I hope I have a PonoBill nearby!
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on January 25, 2016, 07:16:52 PM
Looks good. I am wondering just how long the Kmart spec drive train lasts with all that torque. May want to include an iPhone charge port so as not to get stranded.

Although I half expected to see your name associated with a project like this;

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/25/464322851/dont-blink-robot-solves-rubiks-cube-in-just-over-1-second

Not much left of the drivetrain, just the freewheel in the back, and it's primitive sounding (clicks loudly) which is probably good. But if it dies I have a nuvinci hub sitting in the shop, tanned, rested and ready.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: stoneaxe on January 26, 2016, 10:39:12 AM
Looks like fun bro.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on January 26, 2016, 10:55:55 AM
...
Not much left of the drivetrain, just the freewheel in the back, and it's primitive sounding (clicks loudly) which is probably good.
...

Oddly, the really high end freewheels are very loud clicking.

I'd have thought pedal assist was more power the more you pedal. Is it easy to bypass that with a throttle?
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on January 26, 2016, 01:03:38 PM
This pedal assist is backwards to others I've used. Usually its as you describe Yugi, for some reason they designed this backwards, and I can easily see myself backing off for a turn and having pedal assist shove me into a tree. the only way to cut it off without modifying the system is to touch a brake lever, which is fine, but I don't nee4d counter-intuitive help. pedal assist can be disconnected by clipping one wire inside the power control system, which is what I'll do. well documented on the web.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on January 28, 2016, 02:14:52 PM
Looks like the battery element is still a little vague. They appear to have $400-$1,000 options out there.

For the home made solution they have Chinese 5000 ma Lipo batteries online for $60 each. How do you wire them together? Series? Do you cut the wires and put three together for 44Volts to a 50 Volt motor?

These guys have a "bottle" shaped option that looks clean.

http://lunacycle.com/motors/mid-drive-kits/bafang-mid-drive-and-parts/bafang-bbshd-1000w-mid-drive-kit-in-stock/

My fear is that I take It to the beach and it gets stolen, im thinking of trying to make it look UGLY so no one wants it.  Even if you lock it up the battery is a costly and easily stolen component.

I still cant get over how cheap that Kmart bike is. $260??
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: starman on January 28, 2016, 02:53:12 PM
Lunacycle has some very nice battery packs. Looks like the battery prices have come down considerably using the 18650 cells. $475.00 for a 13.5ah 52v Panasonic battery pack at 7lb 11oz is pretty damn good. Once bolted down it would be an effort to steal. If the bike is targeted I would expect them to steal the bike and not try to part it out on the beach.

I personally WOULD NOT try to build my own battery pack considering the dangers when charging large format Lithium batteries if things are not built by someone with expert knowledge.

Nice review here;

http://electric-fatbike.com/2016/01/19/pink-bunny-arrested-charged-with-battery-new-18650-cells-vs-alkalines-ncrb-shark-packs/

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on January 28, 2016, 04:21:35 PM
I personally WOULD NOT try to build my own battery pack considering the dangers when charging large format Lithium batteries if things are not built by someone with expert knowledge.

Absolutely correct. I've been fiddling with big LiPo packs for years to power multicopters and other stuff, and they still scare the crap out of me. Good way to burn down your garage. LiFe is much safer.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: dabigkahuna on February 01, 2016, 05:40:56 AM
Got a question for people who use their eBike to go to the beach:  what do you about securing your bike?  I know a lot of beaches are notorious for theft.  Is a bike like enough?  Do you "grunge" the paint job so it doesn't stand out too much?
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Bean on February 02, 2016, 12:21:23 PM
That's got to depend upon the vibe at your beach.  The kids that come to our beach have no idea what a bike lock is, they leave their bikes (some expensive some not) in a heap (and we're talking Jersey here (no, not the Isle of Jersey)).
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on February 02, 2016, 06:26:56 PM
My bikes generally look so weird that no one messes with them.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: dabigkahuna on February 03, 2016, 03:15:43 AM
My bikes generally look so weird that no one messes with them.

Your last build looks pretty trick, I would think it would be the first bike to get nabbed.  Maybe Maui is better than Oahu?  Got a buddy who uses rattle can paint to grunge up his $10K carbon bike.  Helps, but they still get stolen. 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: stoneaxe on February 03, 2016, 08:06:11 AM
Got a question for people who use their eBike to go to the beach:  what do you about securing your bike?  I know a lot of beaches are notorious for theft.  Is a bike like enough?  Do you "grunge" the paint job so it doesn't stand out too much?

OK....here's a task for Bill. Ant-theft device...Wire the batteries to a capacitor...circuit is closed when you grab the handlebar and sit on the seat...... :o
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on February 03, 2016, 09:06:36 AM
Easily done, but you've forgotten my bad memory. The first person to get 50 thousand volts to the nuts would be me.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: kayadogg on February 03, 2016, 09:48:12 AM
Enjoy  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bN76TvJspY
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on February 03, 2016, 11:08:26 AM
I'm building a DIY 44V 20AH LiPo battery with a hacked BMS. Anyone stealing the bike may be subject to sudden explosions or fires. We'd probably find the thief by following the fire trucks to the shell of his former garage.

Turnigy just came out with a Graphene shielded LiPo. Unbelievable specs. A bit expensive (though cheaper than standard 5A 16V LiPos were a year or two ago), but you could weld 1/4" aluminum plate with one of these batteries. 6 amps, 130C burst which means you can discharge at 780 amps in bursts, 390 amps continuous at 16Volts. That's 12.5 KW from ONE battery. Insane.


TURNIGY, the name synonymous with performance, reliability and innovation is excited to release a powerful new battery chemistry in the Turnigy Graphene! 
What does this really mean for you? Well not only do Graphene batteries go harder for longer but they're unlike anything you have seen or used before. 
Turnigy Graphene packs utilize carbon in the battery structure to form a single layer of graphene just 0.335nm thick, making that type of battery substrate the thinnest known to mankind. The graphene particles form a highly dense compound allowing electrons to flow with less resistance compared to traditional Lipoly battery technologies.
The result is a battery capable of maintaining greater power output whilst remaining much cooler under load.  Since heat and resistance are the natural enemy of batteries Graphene chemistry has significantly reduced these problems and the result is an incredible boost in cycle life.
Turnigy Graphene batteries are the new standard for serious hobbyists who require POWER ON DEMAND.
Specs:
Capacity: 6000mAh
Voltage: 4S1P / 4 Cell / 14.8V
Discharge: 65C Constant / 130C Burst
Weight: 742g (including wire, plug & case)
Dimensions: 168x69x34mm
Balance Plug: JST-XH
Discharge Plug: XT-90
Advantages over traditional Lipo batteries.
• Power density: 0.15-0.17kw/kg (5Ah-16Ah)
• Power density: 0.13-0.15kw/kg (1Ah-4.9Ah).
• Stable High pack voltage through duration of use.
• High discharge rate, giving more power under load.
• Internal impedance can reach as low as 1.2mO compared to that of 3mO of a standard Lipoly.
• Greater thermal control, packs stay much cooler under extreme conditions
• Higher capacity during heavy discharge.
• Maintains higher pack capacity even after hundreds of cycles
• Fast charge capable, up to 15C on some batteries.
• Longer Cycle Life 600+

I imagine Musk and the gigafactory are all over this.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Old School 213 on February 03, 2016, 11:18:48 AM
Enjoyed the vid. They got off light, there was not enough DNA left on the fence/tree/car/sidewalk.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: stoneaxe on February 03, 2016, 04:55:57 PM
That was awesome.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: stoneaxe on February 03, 2016, 04:57:11 PM
Easily done, but you've forgotten my bad memory. The first person to get 50 thousand volts to the nuts would be me.

So long as there is video..... :)
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: p06781 on February 19, 2016, 12:23:30 AM
Hey what do you think of the new sonder thin ebike ?  499 + 193 shipping?  Is it worth it ? 

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sondors-thin-electric-bike/x/9019669#/

Jim
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on February 19, 2016, 01:27:47 AM
It's pretty low spec, but it's certainly cheap. I don't know why they call it a single cell battery, it's not, it's likely a 12S2P LiFe battery. 36v 8.6 amp (300watt-hours) is on the small side and a 350W hub motor is pretty weenie, especially for a single speed bike. I wouldn't want one, but they're selling a lot of them.

For comparison, my fatbike is 750W crank drive with seven speeds and a 800 watt hour battery.

So what's with the wind machine hair pose in the beginning of the video. Sheesh.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: DavidJohn on February 19, 2016, 04:19:29 AM
Just buy a normal fatbike.. and use your legs..  ;D

http://vimeo.com/54282760
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Eagle on February 20, 2016, 11:26:47 AM
Not sure if these are cheap -  :o

http://www.businessinsider.com/bike-investigated-technological-fraud-cycling-world-championships-cyclocross-2016-1

http://youtu.be/vKgJ_Uhwfno
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on February 20, 2016, 11:45:16 AM
It's feasible to design an in-bracket motor that would be very hard to detect. What I see the regulating bodies using for detection would be easy to defeat. Even pulling the bottom bracket apart wouldn't be apparent. Design the PAS to give a boost only at the highest level of effort. No external controls, no wires, no visible motor or battery. I could do it, that means others can.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Eagle on February 20, 2016, 12:19:04 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/vivax-motor-bike-doping-scandal-2016-2

"You can download in the App Store an app for magnetic search," he said. "With a simple app you can find the motor, because the motor is [made] from steel and the frame is carbon. You can see the difference in the material."  - But like the Lance fiasco -> staying one step ahead is the goal - and can work for a while.

http://youtu.be/DiuwXLU4v_8
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on February 20, 2016, 05:20:16 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't do that. Embed uncored copper coils in the carbon bottom bracket. Make the crank axle a large diameter tube with low profile bearings and groove it radially. It could just look like a trick, lightweight part even if the entire crankset was disassembled.  Batteries in whatever tubes you decide on. Leave the thing unpowered until high cadence is detected (passively, from induced voltage) and then power up the thyristors. Marginally detectable because of the reluctance difference of copper coils vs carbon, but not easy like a steel can or iron cores would be. Wouldn't be the most efficient motor available, but should be good for a couple hundred watts. Used to be that some electric motors for toys and cheap clocks were made this way.  Modern coreless DC motors are a different thing, using easily detectable permanent magnets. This is a synchronous AC motor I'm conjecturing about.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on February 20, 2016, 05:27:59 PM
Just buy a normal fatbike.. and use your legs..  ;D

http://vimeo.com/54282760

Nice, but i notice you stay in the wet, packed sand. Mine will zip over the dunes like a trail bike. Nice to have a couple of lance Armstrong's shoving you when you need it.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on August 05, 2016, 09:34:12 AM
I tagged this onto the downhill video, but shouldn't have. Just being lazy.

Here's my latest project. Built this yesterday. It's a cheap fatbike ($250 from K-Mart) mated to a REALLY good Chinese crank drive electric. These Bafang BBS02 drives are beautifully engineered. This is the new 100mm, version that fits most fatbike bottom brackets. I had to cut 15mm off my braket to fit it, which would be shameful with an expensive fatbike but for $250 it's no biggie. The power electronics are in the drive, so there's just one waterproof harness for the control circuits, one for the battery and one for the speed sensor. Super clean installation and a TON of power. 1200 watts peak, 750 continuous. Highly configurable and very good UART control system (tons of info available on line). Or just stick it together and ride with default settings (like limited to 20MPH). Super powerful, especially with the seven speed gearing on my cheapo. Even has discs. 

The 100 mm versions are hard to come by here, no one wants to ship them to Maui, so I bought 11 of them straight from Bafang and imported them. If someone wants one on the Hawaiian Islands I'll sell it to you at my cost. I don't know exactly what that is, but it's somewhere around $600. I had plans to do something exotic with them, but other priorities arose. If you're on the mainland you can get these pretty easily for about $700, but be sure you're getting the right length for the bottom bracket. Standard is 68mm, but most fatbikes are either 100 or 112.

Got to be the cheapest way possible to build an electric fatbike with a quality drive. I'll never build another hubmotor bike--too clumsy. The K-mart here in Maui has three of the model I used left in stock.

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ponostyle.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F01%2Ffatty1.png&hash=e19682229cd6f32ce935dfa8c1b08e7a)


(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ponostyle.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F01%2Ffatty2.png&hash=3ebb2b96a5b1616b9f5be480e681dfc6)


(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ponostyle.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F01%2Ffatty3.png&hash=2e09bf340b4f6c5610a07c8448385832)

I'm using three 14.8 V 5000ma RC LiPos to power mine. Super cheap way to do a fatbike battery if you already have a 4 channel LiPo charger. I already had four of the batteries for multicopters.  The photo shows 4 but I had to drop to 3--the drive errored out from overvoltage. Nice that it just says "sorry, can't do that" instead of just toasting. I'm eventually building a set of three batteries that will sit in parallel with two sets diode-isolated and one switchable as a spare. With 15 amps at an actual 50V it should give a lot of range. . 750 watt/hours, or about an hour at full power. More like two hours at 20 mph. Kind of bitchy to charge, but a few hundred bucks less than a standard bike battery and much lighter.

Alright Bill....your a bad influence on me...I just bought two of everything...but went to Lunacycle and got the Bafang BBSHD 1000 Watt Mid drive kit, full color display, Carbon Shark 52 v GA 13.5 ah battery.....starting the build later today.....let the fun begin
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on August 05, 2016, 09:41:00 AM
Hard not to like. Here's my latest. I just built a 48v 16AH battery for it.

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ponostyle.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F07%2FeTrek.jpg&hash=cdfca57fadb34d5d322605fccfc46685)

You might have to trim the bottom bracket, depending on which length BaFeng you bought. No big deal, just hacksaw it off the non-chain side.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on August 05, 2016, 09:48:51 AM
Hard not to like. Here's my latest. I just built a 48v 16AH battery for it.

You might have to trim the bottom bracket, depending on which length BaFeng you bought. No big deal, just hacksaw it off the non-chain side.

Fragging cool!  How much does this version weigh? Between this, the foils, the SUB foils . . . too much to do and maintain the job and family priorities.

PS: If you haven't tried an electric bike you have to try one.  They are like riding a magic carpet.  I have yet to put someone on my electric bike, young or old, who hasn't giggled with delight at the silent, mystical power it delivers.   
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on August 05, 2016, 09:57:26 AM
Hard not to like. Here's my latest. I just built a 48v 16AH battery for it.

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ponostyle.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F07%2FeTrek.jpg&hash=cdfca57fadb34d5d322605fccfc46685)

You might have to trim the bottom bracket, depending on which length BaFeng you bought. No big deal, just hacksaw it off the non-chain side.

very clean...whose front fork did you go with? that will be my first upgrade I think....then racks....one for kiting...one for supping.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on August 05, 2016, 10:14:01 PM
I kind of hate to tell you this, but I'm building an electric Triumph TR3.

Oh, and 5000mah batteries are a dirty lie. More like 1200mah, but at less than a buck apiece, I just keep welding then together until I get what i need. Honestly, I can't tell what the cheap Chinese batteries are--they're all over the place. Some are 1200mah, some are 3000mah. None are 5000mah, but just stick a whole bunch in parallel and who cares.

You did the right thing buying from Lunacycle. In a world of sleazebags, those guys are the real deal. Congrats on your wisdom.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: linter on August 06, 2016, 02:51:43 AM
  Has anyone come up with the better design for a SUP rack?  Beasho's works for him but that style caused me nothing but trouble with my super-heavy, very-wide 10' board.   I've looked at some of the commercially available trailer-types and I'm sure they're fine but, well, there's nothing elegant about them.  And I want elegance.   Pono -- you gotta put your teeming genius mind to work on this at some point.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on August 06, 2016, 08:40:34 AM
Project #1164.

Actually, I made a pretty good trailer for my motorcycle in Maui, but it's a fair amount of work to make.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: JP4 on August 19, 2016, 08:23:28 AM
Hey PB, just read about this. Is it legit? Seems like a revolution in batteries if scaled up.

http://news.mit.edu/2016/lithium-metal-batteries-double-power-consumer-electronics-0817

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on August 19, 2016, 08:49:31 AM
Yes, it's for real, and it can scale. Tesla's gigafactory is a multi-chemistry system, they can adapt it to almost any battery design. Improvements in batteries are coming fast and furious. Even just the new size cylinder batteries and the advanced Li-ion chemistry that the gigafactory is producing are nearly double the power per kilo and double the expected life that batteries produced previously.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on August 19, 2016, 09:14:17 AM


You did the right thing buying from Lunacycle. In a world of sleazebags, those guys are the real deal. Congrats on your wisdom.
[/quote]

Heres some pics of my build....top speed 31mph aprox range 22miles....fun factor 10+
I live next to the wetlands so they don't look pretty....we ride them down to the beach and abuse them...Ordered two bike from Walmart and the kits from lunacycle.com with the high end color displays...I drove to the store and they gave me no tax or delivery fee.


I will post pics in a minute of the progress and the final bikes done...they are filthy because they get used daily between by three kids and my wife and I.


Did Bafang BBSHD 1000 W Mid Drive kit x2 = $1,365
Upgraded to the 42 T Sprocket, 100mm fit perfectly on this Dolomite by Mongoose
Did 2 x 52 Volt Carbon Shark @ $566 each
Two Mongoose Dolomite Delivered to my door for $452 including tax and delivery

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on August 19, 2016, 09:17:42 AM
Pics....
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on August 19, 2016, 09:24:03 AM
Looks great! I like the carbon shark batteries. I build my own, but if I didn't, that's what I'd use. It's really dumb to make your own, I have them stored outside the shop so they don't burn the place down, but I have the incurable disease of newToolItis. If I can justify buying a new tool to roll my own, I'll do it almost every time. Making my own battery packs justified buying a cheap spot welder. Now I only have to weld together a few gigawatts of batteries to justify upgrading to a more powerful one.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: SlatchJim on August 19, 2016, 11:00:21 AM
Gotwavz, awesome job.  Also your garage is a thing of OCD beauty.  I'm jealous on both fronts.  :D
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on August 19, 2016, 11:29:21 AM
Gotwavz, awesome job.  Also your garage is a thing of OCD beauty.  I'm jealous on both fronts.  :D

Thanks but my garage is a mess in those photos...almost didn't post because of that...yes I have ADHD and OCD and probably a lot of other things wrong:)
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: SlatchJim on August 19, 2016, 02:36:53 PM
Gotwavz, awesome job.  Also your garage is a thing of OCD beauty.  I'm jealous on both fronts.  :D

Thanks but my garage is a mess in those photos...almost didn't post because of that...yes I have ADHD and OCD and probably a lot of other things wrong:)
That's exactly what someone with OCD would say  ;D
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: stoneaxe on August 22, 2016, 08:25:21 AM
Nicely done.

THAT's a messy garage?.... :o :)
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: mrbig on August 22, 2016, 09:37:24 AM
That is NOT a messy garage!

THIS is a messy garage!!

 ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: SlatchJim on August 22, 2016, 09:38:06 AM
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg-2.newatlas.com%2Fcrua-hybrid-hammock-tent-69.jpg%3Fauto%3Dformat%252Ccompress%26amp%3Bfit%3Dmax%26amp%3Bh%3D670%26amp%3Bq%3D60%26amp%3Bw%3D1000%26amp%3Bs%3Dba911d39081f069106f8266e7dc03626&hash=3f4b0a9c1d9962c8a01d54303264070c)

http://newatlas.com/outdoor-retailer-2016-roundup/44657/pictures (http://newatlas.com/outdoor-retailer-2016-roundup/44657/pictures)

Looks like the Outdoor Retailers like your concept too, but they call their version Rambo and it's a fat tired hunting bike. (and probably charge 4 times what it cost you)

Mr. Big, I think I see where Indiana Jones stored the Arc of the Covenant along the back wall.  ;)
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: mrbig on August 22, 2016, 09:43:06 AM
Slatch, Ssshhh..

 ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on August 22, 2016, 09:52:10 AM
Meister Grande--thanks for that. I feel much better now.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: TallDude on August 23, 2016, 10:25:50 PM
Check out this new Bultaco electric dirt bike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hxpmpFAlqs
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on August 24, 2016, 08:57:32 PM
It's pretty, but a hub motor?? WTF? 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on August 25, 2016, 07:11:00 AM
What's the downside of a hub motor?  Alternately the upside of the bottom bracket design?

Having used a Hub Motor for 5 years, 5000+ miles what I do like is the instant power on.  Even if you are at a stop you can throttle up regardless of the gear and get out of a pinch (can't do that as easily with the wrong gear on bracket motor). 

Here is a hub motor from Luna Cycle.  Half the cost and might go in more effortlessly.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on August 25, 2016, 09:06:13 AM
There's nothing wrong with hubmotors in a low-end electric bike--they are the most popular motors for low power by far. Easier to fit, and simpler electronics. But if Bultaco is going to sell a high-end bike it should be a BB crank motor IMO. Hubmotors have too many limitations. I've built several hubmotor bikes, one mid-gear, and two BB crank motor bikes. Crank motors win hands down.

First major issue is efficiency--it's a single gear device. Not such a big deal for electric motors since their torque curve starts pretty high at 0 rpm, but it's still a curve, and there's still a point of greatest efficiency and torque--often the same peak unless the gearing is really screwed. With a nuvinci, internally geared, or seven-speed derailleur rear hub you can have tons of low end grunt and high top speed.

Second is balance. A heavy device hanging out at the front or back end makes for an unbalanced bike. You've undoubtedly mastered the art of keeping it from getting away from you, but it's a big flaw for most people.

Third is cabling limitation--power has to come in through the axle, which means the wires have to pass through an axle that can fit in the dropouts. The small cable means limited power and high resistance. I'm powermad. There are 2KW hub motors, but I doubt that they actually deliver that, and if they do, I suspect their reliability. It's much easier to build a reliable high-power bottom bracket motor. All of the true electric motorcycles I'm familiar with use the equivalent of a BB crank motor (with no pedals of course) for all the reasons above. My late friend Michael Czysz (gone much too soon. RIP Michael)  http://motoczysz.com/  called hubmotors "tin fiddles". I'm not that critical of them, but I know what he meant.

The only technical downside of a BB motor is that the power is delivered through a chain and gear system designed for human power levels. Not as big a problem as one might think because motor torque delivery is much smoother--the instantaneous impact of a 200 pound person standing on a six inch crank pedals is 100 ft-pounds and the average torque is roughly equivalent to a 1500 watt motor, even though it's only about 100watts average. They are also roughly twice as expensive. The reason that's so is that they are much less popular--easier to build an eBike with a hubmotor.  But the balance is excellent, and all the technical aspects are more favorable. I hack my BaFeng motors to make 2kw (about 2.6hp) in short bursts. Similar to the power output of a 50cc gas engine and the torgue of a 100cc.

No company currently makes high-power crankmotors, since there are so many regulations that limit their use, but it would be easy to build a 10kw crank motor. I know a guy ho did just that. He can light up his rear tire with the bike rolling.  I've seen high-power hubmotor bikes that claim 10kw with dual motors. they have custom axles and dropouts to handle the bigger wire required. I've never had a chance to ride one, but seeing the videos of them performing I don't see anything my 2kw crank motor doesn't do.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on August 25, 2016, 11:57:45 AM
There's nothing wrong with hubmotors in a low-end electric bike. . . .

OK got it.  So my bike is a Piece O Crap :o

That said maybe I have been like a dumb animal and don't realize what I have been missing.

So what is the build time on this Mongoose set up?  (Question for GotWavz, or Pono)

How heavy is the whole thing?  Do you care or is there just so much juice it doesn't matter?

I was wary of building my first electric bike because of all the components needing to be compatible AND I wanted it to start as my Surf Caddy IMMEDIATELY.

5 years later, and with a few successful builds on this thread, I am more excited to try.  I might even learn something to benefit my current rides.  Alternately if I really like the setup it doesn't look like much to swap out a nicer fat bike or modify over time.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on August 25, 2016, 06:31:10 PM
The new BaFang motors are a cinch. The controller electronics are in the motor housing and the cabling is coded, snaps together, and is waterproof. It's mostly a matter of fitting the motor to the bottom bracket. If you keep the derailleur rear end you need to get the sprocket of the drive more or less centered on the middle of the gear cluster. You also need to pull all the guts out of the bottom bracket. The cheesy Mongoose bike is particularly easy to do because it doesn't have a bearing cassette, just old school races and loose balls. You basically just knock all the stuff out, make up any shim you need to center the sprocket, and bolt it up. I did mine in less than a day. I'd suggest the battery option that GotWavz settled on. It looks like he did a cleaner job than I did on his bike, so it might have taken longer, but I'd guess a day for both, especially since once he did one he knew all the things he should and shouldn't do with #2.

How much do you have into yours Gotwavz? $1500 each?

Opps, just looked at Gotwavz post--I get $1474.

A good place to start is to read all the stuff from Lunacycle. these guys are pretty hot on the Bafangs, and have been hacking them a long time. On their recco I boosted mine to 1600 watts and was terrorizing the neighborhood. they tell me it runs all day like that, but I'd be getting stopped by the cops for nutjobbery, so I'm back to 1000watts.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on August 25, 2016, 06:54:33 PM
The Mongoose was really easy, we did two of them in about 5 hours. Even went thru and upsized the wires with a lower gauge between the motor and the battery receiver, soldered (removed quick connects, shortened excess wire) and went thru and put sealer on all the possible water entry points. Overkill but worth it.  No shims were required on the Mongoose, it fit perfectly.  I had a friend who built his a month earlier and he helped me big time, so that helped but there are lots of videos on the build on Lunacycles web site.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: 1tuberider on August 26, 2016, 06:53:31 AM
Is the mongoose strong enough for the electric motor? What about weight with this choice?
Nashbar has a nice fat tire bike on sale, as well as the house and REI. I would also look for a frame
that is gusseted. Workman cycles builds this tyoe of frame but they are heavy. I would not want my bike
frame to fail at speed. Also consider a front shock, because on the beach it can get rough and the frame bouncing
is punishing the battery. My battery is fine but the housing cracked.

I went with an aluminum framed bike(origin 8), added the bafang 1000 hd kit and a bottle battery 13.5 ah.
The nice thing about my choice is that it included the nuvinci hub. I paid 1200 for the bike, 700 for
the motor kit and 435 for the battery.  So for under 2400 I have a nice fat tire beach bike (around 60 lbs)that weighs
less than my evelo arias e bike (around 70lbs) that I commute on. My evelo cost around 2800.

The fat tire bike has opened up miles of beach to collect on. So far I have put over 100 miles of beach
riding and have collected over 40 lbs of agate and jade. I have only had to come back on my own power
twice as the rides were in soft sand for many miles.

The fat tire bike is not much of a street bike. Its the tires. The evelo is not much of a beach bike. Its the tires. They both have their roles. I do plan on hunting next month with my fat tire bike. Nothing like stealth out in the woods.
I have been really happy with the bikes. They get used. So far the garage has not gone up in flames.

I guess my bikes are not what you would call cheap. But put in perspective, e bikes prices range from around 1800 (look at luna cycles) to 10k. So I feel I am at the lower end of the spectrum. Both bikes are crank driven motor setups.  The bafang likes to rev where the evelo is a low speed torque setup. I like the advantage of gearing. I can do rooster tails in the sand.

Why do it? Every person who has ridden either of my bikes squeals like little kids with joy. No insurance. No license,
fewer restrictions (try taking a motorcycle on the beach), commuting at 20 mph around town and of course
exercise.

You should try one sometime just to check it out if you have not done so yet.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: stoneaxe on August 26, 2016, 08:55:12 AM
OK...a pair of these just went into the do this sometime soon box.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2016, 12:00:11 PM
Onetube -- The mongoose frame is a stout piece of work--steel, oversized tubing, double-butted in a few places. The cheap stuff is the components--the crank isn't a sealed cassette, it's loose bearings. Who cares, you're throwing it away. The rear derailleur is low end shimano, but it looks stout. I flailed the crap out of mine on Maui, doing the cane road from hell to the Peahi lookout, riding in soft sand, doing the mud and root trails near my house. No problem. It's heavy, but with three Lance Armstrongs doing the pedaling who cares.

Still, I looked at doing the Kawasaki aluminum framed el-cheapo. But it was heavier! Most importantly, the Mongoose was available at Walmart, and no one will ship bikes into Maui, to be even slightly rational they need to come in a container load.

It was a lot simpler to build the Mongoose than the Trek I just finished. I couldn't get the big sprocket on the BaFang to line up in the middle of the gear cluster of the Trek. It was easy on the Mongoose, but the trek bottom bracket attaches to the rear frame with sharply bent tubing, which lmits sprocket placement. I'm going to try getting a smaller sprocket from Lunacycle (better anyway) but if that won't let me center the drive I'll have to swap in an Alfine internally geared hub I have sitting around. That means lacing up a wheel and a few weeks of delay.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: 1tuberider on August 28, 2016, 07:22:45 AM
Thanks Pono
I did not realize the mart bike was ok. I know you get rid of the crank, but there is more to it than the crank
assembly. The frame build is a major concern when adding power. The other components are easy to change.

The issue with weight for me, is that I lift the bike to a bike rack on the back of the truck. Its pretty high as I
have a tall 3/4 ton truck. Power overcomes the weight for rolling and lifting. I am doing the lifting, not some
gorilla.

I am using the 31 tooth luna sprocket. Great power at the low end. Top end I am not to worried about as I get
tire bounce and there is no suspension. Yet!

I have been roofing my house. 4 weeks of all my time to remove shake, clean surface, repair damage and then
reroof. 4000 sq ft has had me busy. Should be done this week and then back to the beach. Things you do to save
money. This savings is over 8k. Not to bad for a month of time out.  I may have to build another e bike with all this savings. I do have the 3k watt cyclone motor kit.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on September 01, 2016, 06:47:43 PM
Luna Cycle has some specials going on a bad ass frame for $499, if  you want to build a beast;


http://lunacycle.com/electric-enduro/

They also have a 3000W motor, which I guess you have Tube rider....crazy, must be so fast!
Where are these things going to be in a year from now, they are advancing so quickly along with the battery technology.

From Luna......

We have the mini-cyclone in stock which offers the same power the 3000w offers when using  a 48v or 52v battery in a smaller size and weight.  This is a very nice motor

Check it out here its an awesome motor:

 http://lunacycle.com/mini-cyclone-kit/
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 01, 2016, 07:27:27 PM
Pretty slick stuff. I'm a decent TIG welder, so I don't mind reinforcing a frame if I think it needs it. So far I haven't felt the need, though if I were going to 3KW or more I'd consider it. Might even build a custom frame. That's four horsepower. there are lots of ways to finesse that amount of power. I'd be as worried about the stock freewheels and axles as anything else. I blow spokes out of my three wheeler with just a 1200 watt mid-drive, but they last long enough, the last wheel I laced up I got some pretty heavy duty stuff and it's holding up well.

There are lightweight water-cooled outrunner motors available up to 55KW (75 horsepower) that are intended for UAVs. There's no practical limit to how far you can go, just a matter of, umm, why.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on September 03, 2016, 10:10:17 AM
Is there any reason NOT to go with this motor? 

2000 Watts, small, apparently light and $419.  I am about to pull the trigger and think this would be pretty fantastic.
http://lunacycle.com/mini-cyclone-kit/

Also:  The Mongoose comes in the Dolomite (Blue) and the Malus (Silver).  Any particular differences?  I am leaning towards the Silver Malus.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: stoneaxe on September 03, 2016, 12:18:29 PM
This the bike?....$187.00? It says mens....think the 26" would work for both Sue and I?
https://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Mongoose-Dolomite-Men-s-7-speed-All-Terrain-Fat-Tire-Mountain-Bike-Navy-Blue-Red/29741123

Does the kit work on a 20" boys?
https://www.walmart.com/ip/20-Mongoose-Massif-Boys-All-Terrain-Fat-Tire-Mountain-Bike-Black-Yellow/29741122?action=product_interest&action_type=title&item_id=29741122&placement_id=irs-2-m3&strategy=PWVUB&visitor_id&category=&client_guid=995e85a4-d5e7-4e51-b79e-308f064e5deb&customer_id_enc&config_id=2&parent_item_id=29741123&parent_anchor_item_id=29741123&guid=733e2762-96bd-4cee-a2b5-231c3f62a2a4&bucket_id=irsbucketdefault&beacon_version=1.0.1&findingMethod=p13n

If so I'm pulling the trigger on two and then we'll talk motors.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on September 04, 2016, 03:22:36 PM
Good overview of the Hub vs. Bottom Bracket motor. 

Similar to what Pono stated.  He added the observation about the increased Current required with a hub motor, which is essentially single geared system.  4X more power on a hill, for example, means 4X the current which is squared in the form of heat, e.g. 16X, and gets inefficient pretty quickly.

This all vs. leveraging the bicycles natives gears which have evolved to near perfection over the past 150 years, lowering unsprung weight . . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL7tTUZCFDs&list=PLaVr3cF6sYhtq_VDNU9CYxRhxpGpsTrXc&index=3
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 04, 2016, 08:13:21 PM
Beacho, 'm not sure what comes with that kit. Looks like just a motor, mounting system and drive sprocket. You'll need a controller, wiring, throttle, cadence sensor, probably a freewheel on the crank sprocket. You should call Lunacycle and see what you're getting into. You jump right into the deep end, don't you.

Bob, I don't know anything about the boys bike. If it has disk brakes, and multi-speed rear derailleur it will probably work fine. You need to fid out what the bottom bracket width and inside diameter is. Basically, you can fit a wide Bafang drive to anything, but you might need some simple adapters. I turn mine out of tubing, but any machine shop can make you a sleeve for not much money, you can cobble something together like I do. A snug fit and good spacing makes for a happy bike.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: southwesterly on September 05, 2016, 01:47:19 PM
Fat tire e-bike? Yes. Cheap?... Not so much.

Cool looking though.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/moto-parilla-carbon-suv-ebike/?utm_source=k1&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=test&kwp_0=208953&kwp_4=809200&kwp_1=403798#/5
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on September 05, 2016, 05:33:30 PM
I am leaning back towards the Bafang.  The primary reason is the enclosed gearing.  I didn't like the look of the exposed 2nd chain the cyclone kits. 

My primary interest in this bike would be to replace my current Surf-Mobile.  This would involve some beach riding in hard to soft pack.  I am getting comfortable that the 1,000 Watt BBSHD Bafang should deliver the goods in a more hermetically sealed package.

Also:  Considering the upgrade from "Cheap" to the Gravity Bullseye Monster PRO: $999 with Front Suspension.  No longer in the Cheap category, but should last for a few years and be able to run stairs and perform like on off-road beast:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/gravity/fat-bikes/fatbikes-monster-pro-bluto.htm#specs
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: TEX_SUP on September 05, 2016, 06:27:05 PM
I am leaning back towards the Bafang.  The primary reason is the enclosed gearing.  I didn't like the look of the exposed 2nd chain the cyclone kits. 

My primary interest in this bike would be to replace my current Surf-Mobile.  This would involve some beach riding in hard to soft pack.  I am getting comfortable that the 1,000 Watt BBSHD Bafang should deliver the goods in a more hermetically sealed package.


If reliability in a beach environment is a concern Mongoose has a simpler version called the Beast.  No cables, no derailers, etc.  We have two of them that we have ridden on the beach several times a week for the past two years with virtually no reliability issues.   

I took the frame out of the box and put in sealed bearings, lower gearing (for soft sand), rust resistant chain, lightened the wheels, and lighter tires.  Run 15 psi for the street and hard pack or 4 psi for messing around in the dunes.

If you have an electric motor what do you need gears for anyway?

Brakes might be an issue though.

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 05, 2016, 06:46:46 PM
Gears are nice. Derailleurs stand up nicely to sand and junk because they're coarse and simple sprockets to begin with. If you want to get fancy you can use an Alfine internally geared rear end as I did with the three wheeler, or go wild and use a NuVinci hub, though in theory they're only rated for 350 watts.

The Mogoose beast uses a coaster brake. I don't know how that would work out with the Bafang--probably OK, but I like the disks. You don't need a sealed bottom bracket because you're tossing all that away.

I recommend cheap and cheerful with the Mongoose (on sale for $179) and if you really like it and want to gpt fancy, all the electric stuff can move to a more spendy bike later. I have to say that building my Trek--about $2k worth of bike--has been three times more difficult than building the Mongoose. Everything was a bit of a struggle. Getting the sprocket to line up with the derailleur has taken all kinds of fiddling, and I still can't get first gear without the chain popping off.  Zero problems with the Mongoose. Something to be said for the robust nature of cheap, clumsy parts designed to be assembled by K-Mart employees.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: JP4 on September 06, 2016, 01:07:57 PM
In my continued effort to keep my 17 yr old son from driving and endangering us all, I've been pushing the electric fatbike idea on him. We've talked about 50cc scooters, but they're super slow anyway, gotta have insurance, yadda, yadda...
Question, especially for you PB since you know the hills around here. Will the standard Bafang conversion give him enough power to, say rip up the hill from the skatepark (next to Safeway)?
He's only 120 lbs.
He'd be riding it mostly to the high school and down to the waterfront for work.
He's going to be paying for it himself, so I don't want to sell him on something he's but going to be stoked about.
JP

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on September 06, 2016, 01:22:53 PM
In my continued effort to keep my 17 yr old son from driving and endangering us all, I've been pushing the electric fatbike idea on him. We've talked about 50cc scooters, but they're super slow anyway, gotta have insurance, yadda, yadda...
Question, especially for you PB since you know the hills around here. Will the standard Bafang conversion give him enough power to, say rip up the hill from the skatepark (next to Safeway)?
He's only 120 lbs.
He'd be riding it mostly to the high school and down to the waterfront for work.
He's going to be paying for it himself, so I don't want to sell him on something he's but going to be stoked about.
JP

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Yes, easily! I'm 205 lbs and I have a nice size hill near my house on the way to the beach, it's not a problem. It's comical.  If you get the advanced controller you can also set a max speed for him. I set my sons to 20 MPH, which give me some solace, otherwise he's pegged at 32mph.  Of course im assuming your mating this to a 52 Volt battery which I listed in my build.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: JP4 on September 06, 2016, 05:55:55 PM
Thanks GOTWAVZ. I'm promoting it as basically an electric scooter that just happens to have pedals, so I don't want him disappointed if it can't whip uphill without pedaling.
Hood River is only 4-5 miles across at it's widest point but is very hilly, so I think this will be a great way for him to get around.

Like Beasho, I'm looking at BikesDirect for the starting point. I've bought a few things from them before and the service is good. Looking at the Boris X9 with front suspension so he has something nce to cruise around on.
 
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/fat-bikes/fat-bikes-borisfs-x9-bluto-ltd.htm

JP
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 06, 2016, 10:03:33 PM
Major overkill for what you're trying to do, seriously. Why spend a thousand bucks on a nice bike that you then strap 15 pounds of motor and 30 pounds of battery to? You bike guys are the worst gearheads. Covesurfer had a mild coronary because I put bar ends on my Trek. So very 1990.

Anyway, the Bafang HD will take him up any hill Hood River has without pedaling. But don't go bonkers on the bike. Suspension is unnecessary on a fatbike. If you want to go all gearcrazy get some lighter tires for the Mongoose, but seriously, just buy the cheapest fatbike you can find with Derailleurs and discs (at $179 I think you're good with the Walmart Mongoose) and get 'er done.  Your kid will love the thing, and if it falls apart in two years you do something different, and just transfer the electric bits.

Scooters suck toads. I wouldn't put my worst enemy on one. I bought my father in law a Honda Pacific Coast to get him off a scooter.

Bring the thing up to the shop and I'll help you stick it together. It will take about three hours, max.

Oops, $187. You waited too long. Seriously, there will be NO DISCERNABLE DIFFERENCE between the thousand dollar bike and the walmart special, and the Walmart bike is an easier build.  https://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Mongoose-Dolomite-Men-s-7-speed-All-Terrain-Fat-Tire-Mountain-Bike-Navy-Blue-Red/29741123

If you want to get all crazy, get the hitch for $249. It has lighter rims:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Mongoose-Hitch-Men-s-All-Terrain-Fat-Tire-Bike-Red/42248079?action=product_interest&action_type=title&item_id=42248079&placement_id=irs-106-t1&strategy=PWVUB&visitor_id&category=&client_guid=87d7f7fe-c4bb-467c-bedf-14e32d66173a&customer_id_enc&config_id=106&parent_item_id=29741123&parent_anchor_item_id=29741123&guid=b69c6c43-fcfd-4cf2-9a84-a9dfbecf8019&bucket_id=irsbucketdefault&beacon_version=1.0.1&findingMethod=p13n
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: JP4 on September 06, 2016, 10:40:21 PM
Thanks PB, I knew I was gonna hear about wanting too fancy a bike, but I'm a bike geek, what can I say? Covesurfer and I used to spend ridiculous amounts of money to win meaningless old man bike races. It's funny I'll balk at spending $2-3k on a new sup, but that would only buy about half a mid-range mountain bike these days. We used to drop $1k on a set of wheels that would be next to worthless in a year. Dumb.
I'll check out the Mongoose.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: 1tuberider on September 07, 2016, 06:56:29 AM
I find my 500 watt evelo is a great commuter. I cruise around town at 20 mph. Hills do slow it down a little, but still
plenty fast when compared to no assist. The evelo does give up to 750 watts on demand. I have had the bike up to 26 mph a few times. Nuvinci hub is how I control speed and power. I highly recommend it. But as PB mentioned they are limited to 350 watt. So far no problems. The evelo came with a 2 year warranty.

My 1000 watt fat bike has limited top speed due to tire bounce. It is used only on sand. I rarely take it up to pas3, I mostly stay in pas1 as I have a 31 tooth front sprocket and a nuvinci hub. Plenty of gearing for soft sand. I can rooster tail when peddling. I do not like speed on the sand as it is bumpy and hard jolts to the frame. My battery housing cracked due to the jolts. This is where a front suspension would help. The fat tires are great for absorbing rocks and in many ways is better than a suspension. But when it gets rough and your cruising 15 mph and hit a wash out that is hard to see, you get jolted and the fat tire adds to the jolt.

When I build the 3000k bike, it will be built to handle the extra power. Failure of frame at 30mph due to fatigue of being beat is something I want to avoid. I did do some research in this area and decided to stay away from a mild steel frame.
At slower speeds it would probably be ok, but I would be looking for cracks before the ride. 

The e bike is evolving. I expect the market is going to satisfy all types of needs. 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 07, 2016, 09:47:26 AM
The power and torque of an eBike is not a huge problem, even when it's up in the 2KW range because it's delivered continuously. Even a kids bike needs to be able to handle a lot of torque when the rider stands on the pedals. Make that a 250-pound oaf standing on 6" cranks and it's 125 foot pounds of torque at least, That's about double the torque of a 100 watt motor (about 50 ft-lbs). Weight is the issue--hanging even a light motor from the bottom bracket applies twisting forces during jolts that the frame wasn't really designed for. But still, consider that the 250 pound oaf could be standing on the pedals during the jolts and it seems that any bike that could handle the average American man could handle a motor and battery.

It's kind of amazing that a little bike chain and lightweight sprocket system can handle a big man pounding away at it, but it can. A smooth running motor doesn't stress the system nearly as much, even though it can provide a lot more power.

I think offroad eBikes are going to get a lot stouter because they create an opportunity to whale the living daylights out of a bike, but when I watch what people already do with pedal bikes I think the strength required is already available. But for general street riding and moderate off road, I don't see much need for added strength.  We'll see, it looks like GotWavz is using his pretty hard, and I'm abusing mine in Maui. Now that I've written all this I'll probably find myself carrying the broken bits back from canefield ride some day soon.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on September 15, 2016, 04:33:29 PM
Maybe not so cheap.  Here are the list of electronics on the way ~ $1550.

This is going to be the step up from my current electric bike.  Take my top speed from 20 mph to 30 mph and extend workable range to 5 miles from current 3 miles.  Range is more a function of time than battery limitation.  Beyond 3++ miles its just more effective to take a car.  I don't like using my car and haven't had to in the past 6 years.  This should also add to the adventure since the beach now become traversable.   More to come.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: 1tuberider on September 16, 2016, 06:50:51 AM
Beasho I get closer to 10 miles of range on the beach with soft sand. You should see more for street.
I have the 52 v bottle battery. My daily use of commuting bike ranges from 6 to 16 miles. I have not run out of power
and its a smaller batter.
 
For gearing I used a 31 t front sprocket. It gives lots of low end power and hill climbing ability. The bafang motor likes to rev. I also find my gearing is used for speed or power.  Once use to it, its very efficient. I am not interested in high speed on a bicycle. Over 20 mph and your breaking Calif law for one thing but braking is not like a motorcycle and I find cars not respecting my right of way. They speed around you and then turn right causing you to brake at speed.
 
It looks like your setting up a fat tire bike with the 100 mm bottom bracket. If you find the tires not the best choice for street, I believe the house has street wheel tire sets for fat tire bikes. I gave up on using mine for the street and just bought a better style bike for commuting.

I am not trying to get a quiver of bikes, but like boards they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Now get that bike
built and give us a report and compare it with your hub motored e bike.

Unless you have the bicycle tools, Luna has the tools needed to make the motor nice and tight. They are worth having.

Cheap is relative. Your going to have a great kit that can transfer to another bike. Most e bikes available cost more than your kit and some 7 times the price of your kit. I am not an advocate of cheap anything. I think you get what you pay for. You do have a great kit.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 16, 2016, 07:53:03 AM
Looks good. I like bigger batteries, but that's just because of the way I use my bikes. Long rides. I also suggest a smaller sprocket, though the big 46T one gives lots of speed. I have a 30T on my new Trek and it required a change in the way I ride. I was getting it into top gear on the flats, cranking the motor to five for assist, and going balls out--generally 35 MPH. Now I'm dropping to 1 for assist and doing 20. Saner, and the battery lasts forever. The other advantage is you won't have to lengthen the chain to suit the much bigger sprocket. I think the stock Mongoose sprocket is 32T.

You'll probably have to shim the Bafang crank housing to the Mongoose frame. I don't remember what I did in Maui. It's worthwhile to get a snug fit with solid metal though it will work with something funky, like plastic shims. I used a piece of steel tubing I cut off a trailer jack foot that was still little too small for the Trek BB, so I added an aluminum shim. PIA. You can buy converters meant to convert the various standard bottom brackets for using cassette crank shafts--not much in the way of standards in the bike world.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: covesurfer on September 16, 2016, 10:28:59 AM
Pono, don't forget about building one with me this winter in Maui. Cheap = Good for me. First of all, I totally don't need one, I don't have room for one, and it's better for me to pedal than coast. That doesn't mean I don't WANT one. Just sayin'

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 16, 2016, 11:55:18 AM
Sure. Stick a board rack on it and it's a good replacement for a car--everywhere but on Maui, where if the tourists don't get you the texting locals will.

I took my truck to the Dalles this morning to have it serviced before the long road trip to the PPG. Stuck the ElecTrek in the back to ride home. The Odometer reads 41 miles for the trip, which included a few side excursions. Odo and speedo are probably not quite accurate, though I did calibrate for the tire diameter.  I did 17MPH average on the four climbs -- Rowena Crest, State Road, Twin Tunnels and 13th street. I got lazy on 13th street because I just had breakfast (Egg River) so I did it on throttle only--16.5 MPH. the control panel shows 2/3 of battery capacity is left. I doubt the accuracy, I'm tempted to run it back to the Dalles without charging and see how it does, but I don't feel like pedaling up seven mile hill without assist.  Going back on the back road to get a change of scenery.

I'm no longer sold on the 30T sprocket. It's nice to be able to pedal assist when you're doing 30+ on the flats. A little speed on a long ride is a good thing. I can do 34mph (indicated) but it's all throttle. the lower gear ratio means I can't pedal fast enough to add any power.

I'm going to try something in between. I don't want to use my lowest ratios on the derailleur because the front sprocket is moved too far out--the chain is straight on the ninth gear (10 speed hub) which makes for an extreme angle to first. It's usable, but I wouldn't want to put a lot of strain on it. If it gives me too much trouble I'll ditch it and put on a Rohloff. 

Gotta love big batteries though. This one from Lunacycle is what I'm using--20AH, 52V 1040watt hours.  http://lunacycle.com/batteries/packs/52v/triangle-52v-panasonic-pf-18650-20ah-pack/

the one I'm building is bigger, fills the whole frame, but it's cheap chinese LiPos that vary all over the place in capacity, so who knows what I'll get out of it. As my battery build chops improve I'll do one with good batteries.
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theretirementtrap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2FIMG_0812.JPG&hash=9c471f5656e44603ee03fd844bfcb30f)
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theretirementtrap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2FIMG_0809.JPG&hash=3f1f88600518352379ae6746865d8d9c)(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theretirementtrap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2FIMG_0814.JPG&hash=eadb0f15c52b878f80fca5b5be0a142b)

The climb up to Rowena Crest is substantial. I passed a lot of lycra this morning, none of them were happy to see a dipshit wearing levis, sitting up straight, blowing past them a double their speed. No wonder they hate electric bikes--cheater!!
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theretirementtrap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2FIMG_0816.JPG&hash=b3d78d0eefaa5da0163be2fa8063d2fb)(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theretirementtrap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2FIMG_0818.JPG&hash=4739e41958404d8ab5131ff41771e131)
Back at the shop. 41 miles, still got battery left. If I were being conservative I'd probably have a hundred mile range, but that would be all on the flats, lots of pedalling, and no blitzing up long climbs or 30+ mph throttle only shots. And I'd have to pump up my tires. I forgot that I'd let most of the air out to do some dirt stuff yesterday. I just checked the rear tire--8 pounds. No wonder it was so loud.

I have no idea what the battery capacity meter really means. Could be about anything.

Beasho, this is a good article to read, though you're a bit on your own with the Mongoose because the bottom bracket is non-standard. I've found the Mongoose is about the easiest bike to add a Bafang drive to, even if you have to shorten the non-chain side of the BB. Very few interference problems and the chain lines up in the middle of the derailleur. https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/11/19/get-a-bigger-hammer-bbshdbbs02-installation-problems-fixes-for-non-standard-bb-intrusive-chainstays/
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Bean on September 16, 2016, 01:01:37 PM
Holy Crap PB, 1040wh, that's a big-ass battery!

So, to put it in perspective (mostly for me), 1040wh is more than 10 times the battery capacity, in watt hours, that the FAA will allow you travel with.  The Onewheel battery is 130-140wh and the Boosted board is 99wh or 199wh depending on the chosen battery pack.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: covesurfer on September 16, 2016, 01:21:54 PM
A 30T front chainring is pretty small. I would think a 36 or 38 would be mo' bettah. Tough to get a good chainline with a 10speed rear and a single front ring. You can't really expect it for the largest two rear sprockets. I don't know how the chainring/crank/motor setup all works, because I've never looked at one up close. But, there are options for realigning a front chainring, in some cases, depending on which side of the crank star (the chainring carrier) you mount it and by using washer shims. But, like I said, I don't really know how everything is configured with the added electric motor on the crank.

The bike looks and sounds like a blast. I used to pedal that loop - up sevenmile, down into the dalles and around on Hwy 30, over Rowena Crest, back to HR on the Twin Tunnels road. Surprisingly, that loop is only 46 miles and a little over 4000' of climbing. So, you should definitely go for it. Be careful on the 7 mile descent into TD. At the bottom of the upper section, when you pass by the ranch houses, there are some friggin chase dogs that are sometime loose. It's been a problem for years. There is a sharp left hander, as you're headed for TD, and the houses are in a little grove just after the turn. Fun on a motorcycle, fun on a bike, the e bike will be too. Don't kill yourself. Have fun. Miss the riding there, it's superb.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on September 16, 2016, 02:01:44 PM


I have no idea what the battery capacity meter really means. Could be about anything.

This may help (see pics). My buddy did a lot of research on LiPo's and apparently to help preserve them you have to be careful how much you let them deplete, i.e. never fully deplete them and 2) Never fully charge them for extended periods.  He made up these charts for our use.  The color computer that Beasho bought has volts as an option read out.  Sometimes we let friends use the bikes and we ask they keep them within these parameters.

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 16, 2016, 02:13:39 PM
Nice chart. I don't know what the funky little battery meter on the control panel indicates, but i'm going to add a wattmeter to this bike.

I like big batteries. Here's one of the two LiFe batteries on my three wheeler. I need to find the cells that have gone resistive. This folds in half and gets taped all to heck like the one that's still in the bike. 16s18p 52V 30AH (1560 watthours) with both of them in I've done a century ride that started with climbing to government camp on Mt. Hood.
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theretirementtrap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2FIMG_0821.JPG&hash=7e1218291e2e2528dc2fcf488d880435)

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theretirementtrap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2FIMG_0823.JPG&hash=26744b2964240b3f05cff1f5192d69f9)
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theretirementtrap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2FIMG_0822.JPG&hash=a950a20e38825a86dcf11e1924718820)

this is the battery I'm building for my fatbike.
No idea of what the capacity will be.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on September 16, 2016, 02:17:15 PM
Nice chart. I don't know what the funky little battery meter on the control panel indicates, but i'm going to add a wattmeter to this bike.

I like big batteries. Here's one of the two LiFe batteries on my three wheeler. I need to find the cells that have gone resistive. This folds in half and gets taped all to heck like the one that's still in the bike. 16s18p 52V 30AH (1560 watthours) with both of them in I've done a century ride that started with climbing to government camp on Mt. Hood.
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theretirementtrap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2FIMG_0821.JPG&hash=7e1218291e2e2528dc2fcf488d880435)

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theretirementtrap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2FIMG_0823.JPG&hash=26744b2964240b3f05cff1f5192d69f9)
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theretirementtrap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2FIMG_0822.JPG&hash=a950a20e38825a86dcf11e1924718820)

this is the battery I'm building for my fatbike.
No idea of what the capacity will be.

Wow - very impressive - sorry but that scares me sitting between my legs...just saying....im sure your better at soldering than the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 workers
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 16, 2016, 02:18:44 PM
At the bottom of the upper section, when you pass by the ranch houses, there are some friggin chase dogs that are sometime loose. It's been a problem for years. There is a sharp left hander, as you're headed for TD, and the houses are in a little grove just after the turn. Fun on a motorcycle, fun on a bike, the e bike will be too. Don't kill yourself. Have fun. Miss the riding there, it's superb.

I know the spot well, been there a bunch of times on my trike. The dogs chase that but they don't know what to bite. I ran over one when he tried to dart in for a nip.  Didn't hurt him, but he quit chasing me.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 16, 2016, 02:20:23 PM
Wow - very impressive - sorry but that scares me sitting between my legs...just saying....im sure your better at soldering than the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 workers

Not really. It's welded with a spot welder but the reason it isn't installed is that some of the connections are funky. It's a little sketch, which is why it's outside the shop.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 16, 2016, 06:37:29 PM
Went back and got my truck. I did a little charge on the turnaround, but only about two hours. My weenie little 3 amp charger (150 watts) takes at least 8 hours for a full charge. Did the shortest route to the Diesel service place--27 miles, 68 miles total today. Barely made it. the charge indicator started flashing and dropping power.  Given the elevation changes and my priority for speed vs. battery conservation (I got to the place with 28 minutes to spare) I'd say it did pretty well.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: JP4 on September 16, 2016, 07:42:15 PM
Pono, don't forget about building one with me this winter in Maui. Cheap = Good for me. First of all, I totally don't need one, I don't have room for one, and it's better for me to pedal than coast. That doesn't mean I don't WANT one. Just sayin'
I appreciate you're going to have an electric bike for me to ride when my divorce is final and I'm living in your garage. I'm sure it will be nice and quiet so I won't wake up Marcia when I come stumbling back in the middle of the night.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: covesurfer on September 16, 2016, 10:22:06 PM

I appreciate you're going to have an electric bike for me to ride when my divorce is final and I'm living in your garage. I'm sure it will be nice and quiet so I won't wake up Marcia when I come stumbling back in the middle of the night.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Send standby tickets for Marcia, that'll buy her off. We could use the income from renting out the garage but you'd be smarter to get yourself stationed at Ponohouse. Once you're in there, it's almost impossible to get rid of you and PB really has no idea what he's dealing with when it comes to JP4. Bring lots of mosquito repelente because you going need it. Da buggahs are choke ovah hea
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: JP4 on September 17, 2016, 11:13:37 AM
Rental income? That's not really the program I had in mind bro.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: covesurfer on September 17, 2016, 03:36:48 PM
I am already helping support one adult child. Can't take on any more.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 17, 2016, 08:34:10 PM
Are you ladies done?
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: covesurfer on September 17, 2016, 08:45:51 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on September 21, 2016, 06:58:19 PM
The "Not so Cheap Electric fatbike" platform arrived yesterday.

Took about 45 minutes to put together.  $1,000 from BikeDirect shipped. 

I opted for the BLUTO front fork.  My current eBike, iZip Zuma, gets me to 20 mph.  At that speed any divot in the road, bump or pothole is especially painful without a good front fork.  I had to swap out the original crappy Zoom fork because it kept bottoming out for a RockShock. 

This Motobecane model was the cheapest with a good front fork and I was worried the Mongoose might not upgrade easily.  Add the fact that my current eBike has 5,300 miles and I decided to up the ante since this will be my primary surf vehicle.  I have used a car fewer than 10 times in the past 6 years to go surfing so this new beast will be my workhorse.   

Bottom bracket measured 99.5 mm.  Ideally no surprises with the 100mm BBSHD sitting in the box.  The build will continue this weekend. 

I am excited to see how this works in the sand.  I took it for a peddle and it was fantastic in everything but the softest sand which required a lot of work.  1,500 Watts of power should fix this problem  8)
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 21, 2016, 08:33:22 PM
Nice looking ride. Bottom Bracket should be perfect, though you could potentially run into a little trouble with the chainring clearing the bend in the chainstay. Probably not, but watch for the chainring rubbing it. That can be fixed by shimming the chainring off the drive with washers or using a different sprocket. But you'll probably be fine. You'll need a tool to pull off the cranks--they are probably standard tapered square--and you might need a tool to pull the bottom bracket cassette. Depends on what they used for it. You'll figure it out. Easy stuff.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: 1tuberider on September 22, 2016, 06:55:55 AM
Nice bike Beasho

Will the battery fit in the triangle?  Hope so.  My bottle
battery is a real tight fit and requires a little force.

I am considering a bluto shock for the front.  The jarring on ruts in the sand is not tamed by low
air pressure. I want a use report after you get a chance to beach ride.

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 22, 2016, 08:07:02 AM
There are a lot of limitations to front suspension on a bike. They're generally useful only in handling impact. The compliance of a suspension is a factor of the mass suspended, it's distribution, the spring rate of the fork, and the damping of the shock absorption. Weight distribution of a bicycle with a rider seated up, with arms extended, can be as low as 30 percent on the front wheel.  If you spring the front suspension of a bike softly enough so that the light weight on the front wheel holds the front wheel smoothly on bumpy ground, the bike will porpoise. That could be dampened either in compression or rebound, but in compression that means the bump compliance is less, and in rebound the forks will pump down with repeated shock. To strike a useful medium the forks are generally stiffly sprung and lightly damped. You can change the damping, but you'll be surprised how little it aids comfort with a stiff spring.

Manufacturers tried to combat this with air forks using soft springs, but air tightens the seals around the fork legs and makes them sticky. It's also easy to lose pressure in one leg and get a torque to the axle with every bump.

That's a very long way of saying you probably won't get the softer ride you're looking for, but when you hit a curb it will jolt less. But tele forks look cool.

Good catch on the area in the triangle. I didn't think of that. I suspect the Carbon Shark batteries will fit nicely, but a big triangle bag battery might not fit.

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theretirementtrap.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2FIMG_0812.JPG&hash=9c471f5656e44603ee03fd844bfcb30f)

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.standupzone.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D29087.0%3Battach%3D77286%3Bimage&hash=48aa76f8e18b0de62aa3c087fc7f713e)

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: starman on September 22, 2016, 09:55:56 AM
Lots of links to different builds on Electricbike.com forum. This one is specific to Beasho's build;

https://www.empoweredcycles.com/blogs/news/109966534-motobecane-boris-the-evil-brut-sprung-bafang-bbshd-build

I've been eyeing the Motobecane Boris for awhile so I'm very curious to hear what Beasho thinks of his when done.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on September 23, 2016, 09:15:56 PM
PHANTastic!

Maiden run.  Look Mom ONE HAND! From soft to hard sand.

On the way home with 2 hands I was jumping the sand moguls.  Really cool and silent.  Quieter than my original eBike because . . . . it's totally silent.  No whir, or whine from the motor.

Less juice than my hub motor from 0 - 3 mph but then it takes it up to 35++++.  I was probably going 40 mph downwind with this thing.  Need to optimize chain ring, chain length but will give it a bit of time first.

Unedited but hot off the press.  Just got this eBike working today around 3 pm.

https://youtu.be/EpRmy7_yiVs
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 23, 2016, 10:44:15 PM
What happens from 0-3 is that there's so much torque that you forget about the shifter and take off in pretty tall gears, especially if you're using the 46 tooth sprocket. The 42 is a bit better, but if you take off in first (unlikely) there's plenty of jump. Unnecessary though. The controller also keeps the power low for the first second of two. You'll notice that even if you set it to an assist level of 4 that it actually starts about 2 and ramps. You can change that with a programming cable, but it's best to leave it alone for a while. If start in Level five you get level five.

One little tip, when you let someone try it, set it to level one and then tell them how to adjust it, or they'll wind up on their ass and your bike gets scraped up. A neighbor ran my Maui fatbike into the garage.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on September 24, 2016, 08:03:31 AM
A lot to learn here.  And - Yes on Power.  After my second ride I went to my favorite surf spot which requires a hike downhill.  I tried the bike going down and didn't realize how technical the trail was on a bicycle.  Let's say I wouldn't have been comfortable with 1 hand.  I then turned around and tried going up. 

I was originally worried about the large 46 tooth sprocket in the front.  However the combination of trying to peddle with 1,000 - 1,500 Watts means that the old gearing theory doesn't hold.  You have so much power you can afford to run a little bigger in the front.  Going up was actually easier than going down and its going to take time to get used to SPEED going up a Technical incline.  Really cool again.

For now my chain is a bit short, the original sprocket was 36 teeth so I can't comfortably run on the largest back sprocket, I need to add links.

Friends will have to be managed.  Naturally everyone will want to try it.  If I were to redo my 1st ten runs down the beach I would crash at least once.  So yes I am NOT happy to have someone fling themselves off a dune and crumple themselves or the bike. 

PS:  My monitor is on the fritz, will have to send it back.  It worked for 3 minutes and I saw the 1, 2, 3, and had no idea what it meant, then it sketched out.  I will be riding with a blank monitor until I can afford to take a break and send it back.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: starman on September 24, 2016, 10:45:51 AM
Beasho, I'm being lazy (the info is there to find) but what was the final price for your build?
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 24, 2016, 02:07:08 PM
Remember it's only half the number of links--only half the sprocket has chain on it, so going from 36 to 46 is ten teeth but only five  links. And yes, you count the second master link. Make sure you get the same chain and link. Bicycle chains tend to look alike, and the nomenclature is odd. If you have a derailleur your chain is sized for the spacing between sprockets, so a ten-speed rear hub takes a ten-speed chain. Likewise the master link. Trying to get a ten-speed master link on an eight-speed chain is not gonna work, and if it does the link will be too tight.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on September 24, 2016, 05:06:22 PM
Took the bike for a jaunt down the coast.  6 miles down, 6 miles back.  Ironically even though its powered you end up sweating.  AND you are out on the bike when you might otherwise be sitting around. 

My arms and legs end up tired after the ride.  Awesome!!!!!

Cost ~ $2,500.  Here:
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Off-Shore on September 24, 2016, 09:55:27 PM
That's less than a top end board.. and way more useful and looks a lot of fun. I'm amazed you can one hand on the beach.... What is the law in the US about riding these on roads or does it vary State to State?
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Bean on September 26, 2016, 03:50:49 AM
Hey OS, not only does it matter from state to state but each county and municipality can impose additional restrictions.  In NJ, the rule is 1hp or less (750W) and max speed 20mph (with a 170 lb rider).
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on September 26, 2016, 05:02:50 AM
they are also rare enough that there isnt much enforcement, though that will change if the wrong peron gets irritated by them
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Off-Shore on September 26, 2016, 05:21:36 AM
Hey OS, not only does it matter from state to state but each county and municipality can impose additional restrictions.  In NJ, the rule is 1hp or less (750W) and max speed 20mph (with a 170 lb rider).

Interesting, so if you are 180lbs, does the max speed or hp reduce?
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: DavidJohn on September 26, 2016, 06:09:40 AM
Just use your legs like the rest of us..  8)

https://vimeo.com/54282760
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: 1tuberider on September 26, 2016, 06:51:12 AM
You look like your happy with the build Beasho.  Great report.

I attended a bike event yesterday. There was 3 rides to choose from. I rode the 9 mile loop with a change in elevation
from 120 feet to 1240 feet. A lot of 12% grade. They called the loop the bummer lake trail. The bummer was no lake.
I started last and kept up with the riders to the start of the grade. I passed them all eventually as the grade increased.
It was not easy but I did not stop all the way. Rode thru the break at the top and just had the best downhill ride I ever had. It was the best and my bike did great. The brakes were outstanding flying down the course and battery lasted the whole trip. I did the trip in 1 hr and 8 minutes. The next rider was at least 20 minutes behind.

Yeah I cheated. I don't care what others think as I would not have been there without the equipment. At almost 65 I was happy to just make it. This was the first time I used the bike on a trail. All other riding was on the beach. Ohhh and my
butt is still sore.

Beasho's smile on his ride should be enough encouragement. My report ought to get you to see some of the possibilities. There is no license, insurance or registration requirement. You can ride places you can not take a motorcycle so why not
try it out. The motor totally changes it. You will not be as happy peddling those fat tires anywhere after you have taken a bite of the e bike.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on September 26, 2016, 07:57:03 AM
The learning curve is steep. 

1) Shocks: I consider these a must not because they generally soften the ride but they make unexpected hits at 15 mph + tolerable.  As Pono suggested the shocks when cruising might not be doing as much as the softer tires.  But from my 5,000 miles of experience on my last bike there are plenty of holes in the road that you hit even on your normal commute that are terrible without the front shock

2) Power: I am now convinced this has more power than my last bike evident from the fact I can spin out in dirt from a stand still.  I am currently trying to climb the "Rockies Cove" hill with this bike.  It is a trail that isn't quite mountain climbing but is ~ 100 foot ascent over 300 foot traverse.  Pretty darn steep.  I made it up all but one little technical section with an 16" step that I have to figure out how to go around.

3) Legs vs. Power: Let's face it we're all getting older.  This bike will put the kid back into you and you will be racing all over spots you might have written off long ago.  I want to go mountain biking again having taken the last 15 years off.  The bike will get you riding when you otherwise wouldn't and you will sweat and be tired after riding.  So there has to be some element of workout.

4) Legality:  Essentially there are no laws.  Sure you are suppose to keep it under 20 mph, and <<750 Watt motor.  The reality is, in less populated areas, no one is going to ask.  The motor is silent.  When around crowds just slow down.  There will be a crack down but for now you are well ahead of the curve and the laws which no doubt will come when some knucklehead barrels through a crowd at some random street fair.

5) The build was much faster than expected.  2 1/2 hours and it would have been faster if I had googled how to get the sticky handlebars off (allen wrench and alcohol) and the motor had easily fit in the bottom bracket (required sanding the inside of the bottom bracket with dremel flat-wheel sander).

Total Bike Weight = 58 lbs.  Here is a view of the geometry.  Not much space in the triangle.  This is the 17" Boris FS X9 from BikesDirect.com.

Thanks to Pono and Gotwavz for inspiring this purchase. Really, really cool stuff.  And this is coming from an owner of 2 prior electric bikes. 

Rarely, but once in a while something comes along that makes you say to yourself "This changes everything."  Like SUP this is one of those things.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on September 26, 2016, 08:57:54 AM
Well done Beasho!  I forgot to tell you keep an eye out for your motor to work it's way loose after a half dozen rides. Both of my bikes did that. I pulled the peddle and removed the safety cover and loctited it on after re-tightening it.

Also the whole wheel spinning thing actually hurt me....in a weird way. I was standing up peddling up a steep offroad incline and powered on the juice at the same time (it was steep). I went over a branch and the torque of the wheel put the branch right thru my tire. Just saying bring a spare. The Mongoose doesn't have quick release hubs so that meant a walk home. And you go far quickly on those bikes so bring all the tools/repair kits.  This was just going to be a quick jaunt from my house.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Bean on September 28, 2016, 11:48:29 AM
Just throw some Slime or equivalent (tire sealant) into your tire and never (never in this case is maybe = 90%) have to worry about flats again.  Since you are running electric-assist no need to watch the grams too closely.  I even run a tire sealant in my Onewheel since carrying a spare would just be awkward.
Title: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on September 29, 2016, 12:05:05 PM
.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 12, 2016, 05:35:33 PM
Any long term updates, lessons learned, etc from those who built them?

I'm assembling my Mongoose and BBSHD 1000W with Panasonic Shark from Lunacycle right now.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: stoneaxe on December 13, 2016, 06:29:14 AM
I'm hoping my wife called Santa Pono for specs....if not I may have to get myself a birthday present next month.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on December 13, 2016, 07:15:08 AM
Bob, I've got a spare BBSHD motor kit in my shop in Hood River with your name on it (and two left in Maui--you might recall I discovered back when I started it was cheaper to import eleven of them than five). Let me know when you want it. All you need is a bike and a battery.

My long term stuff echoes GotWavz. Carry repair stuff. Not because it's a less reliable setup (though you are straining things) but because you wind up in the middle of nowhere. Twenty miles is a short ride, but it's a long walk.

I carry:
Bike toolkit--one of those amazing folding thingies that has everything on it. I often wind up digging it out when I need to do something in the shop.

Pump

Patch kit

Two spare tubes

a little chunk of chain and two master links.

Small charger--slow is better than none, and lunch yields enough charge to get home without grinding. A 60-pound bike is a bitch on a hill without assist.

Anything you carry you won't need. Anything you leave you will.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: 1tuberider on December 13, 2016, 07:24:37 AM
I was so proud of the nuvinci hub! Seemed perfect.
After a 5 mile hill climb it started leaking. Only had 100 miles on it. I now have
a cassette.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: stoneaxe on December 13, 2016, 07:29:34 AM
Cool....send it whenever. If Sue hasn't talked specs with you then Santa won't likely be bringing it (a lump of coal again!.... :P).
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on December 13, 2016, 07:37:04 AM
Just push the BUY Button.

I take out the bike rather than run.  This spot is 3.5 miles from my house so 7 miles round trip.  I can check out Mavericks inside break all the way down the beach, mushroom rock, then climb up the hill and check out Rockies cove this perspective and then get home in 30 minutes.  Fast and Fun.

400 miles on the bike so far.  Mostly surf commuting.  I would still advocate the "Mid Priced Electric Fat Bike."  The front shock is really nice but runs another $600 to $750.

The chain is interesting.  When not well lubricated it starts to skip.  Given all the load on the chain it freaks me out a bit. 

Got one flat when my tire pressure was low and I slammed a rock from the side.  When these go flat, they go really flat.  There is almost no hope of even rolling the bike you almost have to carry the back of the bike.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on December 13, 2016, 09:50:56 AM
OHHH that flat tire gave me a flash back to mine...your right you cant even push the bike when its flat with that fat tire getting hung up.

Long term upgrades for me would be;

1) Better kick stand - I like yours, looks beefy, the stock Mongoose one sucks
2) Quick disconnects on the wheels (I dont remember the last bike that didnt have them standard), makes changing a flat more difficult in the field
3) The Shark battery system has a USB slot somewhere, so i would like to figure out a way that it either charges or powers my lights
4) Surfboard rack - Done
5) Condensed flat kit attached to bike frame - wip (i use a back pack now)
5) SUP Rack....WIP
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on December 13, 2016, 11:45:58 AM
There is a USB slot at the Base of the Cycle computer.  I ordered mine from Lunacycle so it all came complete.  However rather than monkey around trying to find a super juiced USB powered LED Headlamp I just bought this one from Amazon.  $25 - Done. 

It recharges (in fact you could use the USB recharger to plug into the USB), and it nearly as bright as a truck headlight.  Great for speeding down the beach at night. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01H2XNVQM/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Kickstand was here.  I like this form factor because it doesn't get in the way of reversing pedals:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FIKIK7C/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 13, 2016, 12:42:18 PM
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi238.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fff242%2Ffishersfort%2F1342488D-0FB9-4920-B199-30CB4F59AE27_zpspfhwic9g.jpg&hash=88782a3ff7224bc29fbb28eb84e22bda)

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi238.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fff242%2Ffishersfort%2FD74BD1F5-F7BF-455B-B5C2-0980283406C2_zpsr8oaxsmy.jpg&hash=a2a6e9ae63a417f10282e930ed494394)

Here is mine. Built for getting back to my van after a 7 mile down wind kite surf session. My plan is to lock bike around street sign post in highly visible area. Where a thief using cutoff wheel, shooting sparks cutting my hardened steel might attract attention.

Mine gives me power without peddling. Also with peddling. I can just ride it like a motorcycle. Although I'm not. I peddle on the beach as to not draw attention. I'm running back to my van on the beach. I selected off road programming when I ordered it.

Riding in soft sand is easy, but it jars your teeth out going fast.

I had to use Beasho style kickstand. Otherwise bike fell over with my board and kite weight on it.

Walmart jacked the price to $249. Then they did a roll back to $219. Amazon followed suit. Then I saw Academy Sports had it for $199. I paid too much at $249
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on December 13, 2016, 01:13:06 PM
I use this:http://www.backcountry.com/blackburn-outpost-seat-pack-dry-bag


(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcontent.backcountry.com%2Fimages%2Fitems%2F900%2FBLB%2FBLB001O%2FCM.jpg&hash=769f83f51a47a013fa458c9c2f16fa26)
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on December 13, 2016, 05:26:01 PM

Here is mine. Built for getting back to my van after a 7 mile down wind kite surf session. My plan is to lock bike around street sign post in highly visible area.

How are you doing this? Dropping your bike off first then driving up wind?  I like it!
I was going to try and do the same with two bikes and my son but need to set up a double seat, not sure I trust that weight.

Love the banana seat...so ugly no one will steal it :)
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 13, 2016, 06:10:09 PM

Here is mine. Built for getting back to my van after a 7 mile down wind kite surf session. My plan is to lock bike around street sign post in highly visible area.

How are you doing this? Dropping your bike off first then driving up wind?  I like it!
I was going to try and do the same with two bikes and my son but need to set up a double seat, not sure I trust that weight.

Love the banana seat...so ugly no one will steal it :)

That's it. Locking bike up at finish. Riding back to van on the beach to avoid crazy drivers.

I'm leaving wife at finish line while I ride back to get van. She's not on board yet with going electric on her bike. My wife kitesurfs too.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on December 13, 2016, 11:00:12 PM
Just push the BUY Button.

The chain is interesting.  When not well lubricated it starts to skip.  Given all the load on the chain it freaks me out a bit. 


Is it the derailleur or the drive sprocket slipping? Lunacycle has some sprockets that are cut deeper to reduce skipping. YOu might also be able to tension your derailleur idler more.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on December 14, 2016, 02:27:18 AM
Dunno how many miles you got on it but have a bike shop measure  the chain for wear. Maybe an electric bike wears them out quicker. A worn chain skips.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 14, 2016, 11:59:31 AM
Anyone know where the Bafang gets its guestimate of speed?

I'm guessing it's counting rear tire revolutions and guessing based on some tire diameter, but what tire size?

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on December 14, 2016, 04:14:51 PM
You can set the tire size directly in the controller. the manual shows how--it's an approximate value, the best approach is to choose a size, ride the bike with a GPS speedometer to compare indicated speed against. If the speed reads low, choose a bigger tire. Here's the manual with instructions that work for most controllers. Yours might be different but you can probably download a specific controller on the bafeng site.

https://www.greenbikekit.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/9/c965a-manual-8fun-bbs01-bbs02-kit.jpg

To go deeper into changing how the controller works you need a programming cable--lunacycles is good. Also good to watch some of the youtube videos on changing the controller since you can screw things up pretty comprehensively. There are lots of recommendations for setup. BaFang sets up the controller to meet regulations, and then everyone ditches that and makes it more useful. Besides calibrating the speedo you certainly want to ditch the 20mph PAS limit, which you have undoubtedly felt in the lower settings. Feels like you suddenly ran into a wall of marshmallows.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: clay on December 14, 2016, 04:24:38 PM
Cool thread.   This inspired me to look into chain drives, I was previously scared power driving the chain would be dangerous.

My electric bike was stolen out of my garage earlier this year, I wrote about it here:
https://clayisland.com/trusting-bike-thieves

I love my new replacement bike, a lot of the comments here resonate with me.

I learned 2 things with my old rigid frame electric:
1- even minor bumps are bone jarring and teeth rattling at 15+, some kind of shock absorption is crucial in front.
2- hub motors suck and chain drives are a huge upgrade, faster, lighter, and more effeciant.

My new bike is just plain fun, I ride it like it's a full suspension MTB and it's a blast on any terrain.   It's so fun I ride it more often and look for excuses to take it out.  There's a great farmers market 10 miles away and I enjoy the ride back even with a heavy fully loaded backpack.

Also makes DW shuttle runs twice as fun.

I drive a lot less, so it will eventually pay for itself.  I had my old bike for 2 years and it paid for itself in fuel savings.

Highly recommend   ;D
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 14, 2016, 05:21:46 PM
Thanks Bill. It's been a small battle to dig up some details.

Lunacycle ships package with no manuals or instructions.

It's all on the customer to search and watch videos. Ok, but it could be better organized on their site.

Mine was programmed for off road. I was hitting 25 mph on beach today when nobody was around.

I'm running 30T sprocket. I ran 46T my first day. The 30T is scary on power setting 1. It's a beast.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on December 15, 2016, 09:33:14 AM
I tried the 30T sprocket and it was too low geared for my use, went to a 40T which works well and was easier to position for reasonable chain alignment. Lunacyucle's website used to be easy to navigate--designed for the DYI folks. Now the focus is on complete units, probably because that's where the volume and profit are.  You have to dig for tools, information, and accessories. But it's there.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: CLTSUP on December 15, 2016, 11:39:04 AM
Cool thread.   This inspired me to look into chain drives, I was previously scared power driving the chain would be dangerous.

My electric bike was stolen out of my garage earlier this year, I wrote about it here:
https://clayisland.com/trusting-bike-thieves

I love my new replacement bike, a lot of the comments here resonate with me.

I learned 2 things with my old rigid frame electric:
1- even minor bumps are bone jarring and teeth rattling at 15+, some kind of shock absorption is crucial in front.
2- hub motors suck and chain drives are a huge upgrade, faster, lighter, and more effeciant.

My new bike is just plain fun, I ride it like it's a full suspension MTB and it's a blast on any terrain.   It's so fun I ride it more often and look for excuses to take it out.  There's a great farmers market 10 miles away and I enjoy the ride back even with a heavy fully loaded backpack.

Also makes DW shuttle runs twice as fun.

I drive a lot less, so it will eventually pay for itself.  I had my old bike for 2 years and it paid for itself in fuel savings.

Highly recommend   ;D

Clay whats the frame manufacturer and wheel size you have there? Searching  craigslist for a 29er with a good quality fork for my daily commuter. I like to have the ability to off road the beast a bit , but will be used mostly to get to the train station a couple miles away.

Thx
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: clay on December 17, 2016, 08:53:54 AM
Cool thread.   This inspired me to look into chain drives, I was previously scared power driving the chain would be dangerous.

My electric bike was stolen out of my garage earlier this year, I wrote about it here:
https://clayisland.com/trusting-bike-thieves

I love my new replacement bike, a lot of the comments here resonate with me.

I learned 2 things with my old rigid frame electric:
1- even minor bumps are bone jarring and teeth rattling at 15+, some kind of shock absorption is crucial in front.
2- hub motors suck and chain drives are a huge upgrade, faster, lighter, and more effeciant.

My new bike is just plain fun, I ride it like it's a full suspension MTB and it's a blast on any terrain.   It's so fun I ride it more often and look for excuses to take it out.  There's a great farmers market 10 miles away and I enjoy the ride back even with a heavy fully loaded backpack.

Also makes DW shuttle runs twice as fun.

I drive a lot less, so it will eventually pay for itself.  I had my old bike for 2 years and it paid for itself in fuel savings.

Highly recommend   ;D

Clay whats the frame manufacturer and wheel size you have there? Searching  craigslist for a 29er with a good quality fork for my daily commuter. I like to have the ability to off road the beast a bit , but will be used mostly to get to the train station a couple miles away.

Thx

CLTSUP - It is a Specialized Fuse with 650bx3.0" (27.5+) tires.  I wanted an XXL frame and a slack headtube so that narrowed my choices really quick  :)

I had a flat last month and the tire went completely flat but it didn't come off the rim like happened to Beasho.  Tire was on there good and there was a trick to removing it.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 22, 2016, 01:04:23 PM
My Mongose chain exploded today, and took out my derailler.

I was fighting a head wind returning from my kite downwinder. The beach was getting narrow, no good hard packed sand to reduce the strain. At power setting 4 and full throttle, I could only maintain 10 mph, so I got off the beach and hit the highway. Too late though. Chain exploded 1 minute after hitting pavement.

Lunacycles is recommending this chain. Amazon has it cheaper.
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi238.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fff242%2Ffishersfort%2FScreen%2520Shot%25202016-12-22%2520at%25203.53.46%2520PM_zpsvfxj8rsj.png&hash=ca9e5056f5f77783813b42612e4a77f7)

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on December 22, 2016, 01:17:37 PM
What is your gears (number)? 8 speed?

KMC is OK
I prefer SRAM

More expensive chains are plated to avoid corrosion. Which may make a difference since you ride on the beach. Another strategy is to get a cheaper version and change more often.

Sheldon Brown [RIP] wrote up an amazing resource of bike info. Everything you need to know. Dunno if someone has kept it updated. Basically chains have become narrower to fit more gears (10 speed, 11, etc). SRAM bought SEDIS.
   http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html

I ride with a chain tool. If I break a chain I just hook it back up minus the damaged links. Basically it works like this: if you carry the tool the chain doesn't break. If you don't, it does. Some strange law of luck.

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 22, 2016, 01:28:14 PM
My gears are 7 speed. Amazon shows that chain fitting 7 or 8 speed.

I was running my 46T front sprocket. I had just taken off the 30T. 30T is going back on.

I'll start riding with chain tool. After my derailleur got destroyed, I'm tempted to go single speed.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on December 22, 2016, 01:31:44 PM
Don't go single speed. Either buy an Alfine or rohloff hub (spendy) of stick with your derailleur. Yugi is absolutely correct, whatever tools and spares you carry will never be needed.

I would point out that your 30T puts more tension on the chain, not less.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on December 22, 2016, 01:40:46 PM
https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/component/chains

Yes, 8 speed is now the lowest and yes they are compatible w 7 (from memory)

Forgett the top end 890, way too expensive for your use. The 870 is nickle plated and probably worth the extra $5  as you’re on the beach. Else take a PC-830 and change it twice a year (at least yearly). Changing your chain early will save you a ton of money on not having to change the cogs or chainrings. A worn chain wears the cogs and chainring teeth like crazy.

I love singlespeed. The downside is limited top speed. The upside is big badass chain that’ll never break. I love the simplicity of singlespeed.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on December 22, 2016, 01:46:16 PM
I wouldn't use an Alfine or rohloff hub on a beach. I'd stick to derailleur and rinse with fresh water after every ride.

Maybe on the beach once of those wax based chain lubes is smarter as sand won't stick.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 22, 2016, 01:56:52 PM
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi238.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fff242%2Ffishersfort%2F1839AEBA-E530-45F1-837A-CF2349191410_zpsg8xp7afr.jpg&hash=e6935638284c137e3965efa71abf7979)

Look at all that sand on my bike. A big set wave almost took me out. It broke over the seat height when it hit me. Still not sure how I kept from washing out to sea.

Beach was narrow where it got me.

Waves were awesome. So worth it.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 22, 2016, 02:00:16 PM
I would point out that your 30T puts more tension on the chain, not less.

Yeah, my main concern was lack of power. If it had been more windy, no way the bike could have made any headway.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 22, 2016, 02:15:06 PM
I love singlespeed. The downside is limited top speed. The upside is big badass chain that’ll never break. I love the simplicity of singlespeed.

This appeals to me because the Bafang only seems right in one gear anyway.

Is it easy to replace 7 sprockets with one, then get a big hoss chain.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on December 22, 2016, 02:19:33 PM
you will lose top end. As long as you realise that.

People think singlespeed is hard. No it isn't. It's super cruisy. You just shouldn't be in a hurry.

I'd have thought a huge advantage of eBike is speed.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 22, 2016, 02:51:28 PM
I'd have thought a huge advantage of eBike is speed.

It is, but doesn't need gearing to go fast. Just twist the throttle and fly!

I'd like to set gearing for the beach. On the road, I can use the throttle for any extra speed I want.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on December 22, 2016, 03:58:12 PM
Picture is worth 1,000 words.  This is titled:

I Think I'll Stop Here 

First Tracks Half Moon Bay Style 

The Gumbi sticks are my legs against the sunrise.  No vehicles allowed on the beach.  The sand with a rising tide just too soft for human power.  Only an electric fatbike can pull this off.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on December 22, 2016, 06:42:46 PM
Probably singlespeed makes great sense on a mostly-beach bike. I tend to ride mine everywhere, and I have this mentality that tells me I must pedal effectively, so multiple speeds are needed to satisfy my Calvanist ethic. Of course, that's a pragmatic Calvinism or I wouldn't have an electric motor.

My three-wheeler had an alfine hub for the last four or so years, and it was pretty bulletproff. I currently have a Nuvinci hub in it that I'm probably going to toast. the Alfine is still working perfectly. I thought I might have grubbed up the gears, so I took it apart to check it out. Not recommended. took me about 30 tries to get it back together and working. But it was fine, gears looked good, the inner housing was unscored. this trike probably has somewhere in the neighborhood of 5K miles on it, so I was surprised to find the hub looking so good. I just cleaned it, replaced the grease, replaced the seals and called it good. I think the alfine would be fine for a beach bike--it's well sealed.

Rohloffs look to be a bit more fragile, but they are rated for tandem use, which means one hell of a lot of torque. Picture two two hundred pounders standing on seven inch cranks. That's 200+ foot pounds of torque. Admittedly low RPM, but it has to be torque that smokes these things, not power.  Nuvinci's are rate for 350 watts. I hear there's a torque rating somewhere, but I haven't found it.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 23, 2016, 11:26:03 AM
More problems found..

Tore things apart. Found a bent rear axle. It's a 10mm axle. Do they make stronger axles? This axle, the loose balls just fall out. Now I'm wonder if something better can even be fit to this old school design.

I put calipers on a single chain. The side plates are the same cross sections as a 7 speed chain. That means no difference in strength, unless someone offers harden steel side plates. I only see hardened pins. Worthless for my issue.

What kind of rabbit hole did I go down  :D :D

At this point, I'm not even sure a higher end bike would have prevented these issues. Am I wrong?
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on December 23, 2016, 11:53:19 AM
yes

next question?
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on December 23, 2016, 12:05:00 PM
I've pounded the heck out of my Mongoose without any issues--doesn't mean they won't jump out and bite me. I assume all the stuff is crap, but it's been adequate crap so far. You can beef up what you have or swap to something more expensive. I'd try a good single speed hub and axle laced up to the rim and tire you have. that would probably put an end to your problems.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on December 23, 2016, 12:08:20 PM
sorry to be harsh

will answer my opinion with time. merry Christmas

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on December 23, 2016, 12:15:54 PM
Not harsh at all, it's nice to have someone actually knowledgeable talk about this stuff. I'm just bumbling along, "inventing" shit that's probably been well understood for ten years.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 23, 2016, 12:38:50 PM
Ok lets discuss more.

I would assume higher end bikes can be had with hardened steel axles? But figuring out if the bike comes with one, easy, hard?

The chain issue really bugs me. Until I see thicker side plates, I'm worried.

Lighter bike by 10 lbs would be easier on axle, but guys jumps these things, so seems like bike weight can't that big a deal.

And the sand, oh my, when I tore it apart, everything was grinding in grit. Washing it after each use didn't seem to help at all.

As you can tell, I'm not a bike guy. I don't know squat. My other bike is an Electra  townie.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on December 23, 2016, 01:02:41 PM
I learned some good stuff from Keith Bontrager, (Santa Cruz). One of the main influencers of modern mtn bike design. Smart guy but even more mad scientist. Tested stuff to find limits.

I remember a conversation about potential of carbon wheel rims to be stiff. [in those days they tried to make strong rims with 4 huge carbon spokes]. His answer: "why? A wheel is incredibly strong along it's plane. From the side it is very weak. You could build it be strong from all directions, but why? Basically: if you aren't pretzleing a wheel from time to time it is too heavy."

I bet you think same same when building a surfboard, DW. No?

My guess:
you had some freak weird high stress from an oddball direction on your axle and/or chain. Thus comprimised. An axle or chain, uncomprimised, would normally not break under circumstances that yours broke under. In layman terms: they were tweaked.

Think of it as some guy complaining that a surfboard you made wasn't strong enough because he had fallen on it. Then it snapped while he was riding the wave of his life.

My [totally uneducated] guess: your axle and chain underwent some freak stress, maybe even when you weren't there.

My recommendation: stick w the cheap stuff and replace as the world dishes out random funny crap. And laugh about it. [precisely because you didn't get suckered into buying the high end stuff]

merry chirstmus

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on December 23, 2016, 01:30:00 PM
I tend to agree with Yugi.  My last electric bike had 5,000 miles before I upgraded to my electric Fatbike.

I upgraded to the Boris FS X9 with Bluto front shocks.  Essentially this was a $400 bike with a $600 front shock.

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/fat-bikes/fat-bikes-borisfs-x9-bluto-ltd.htm

I managed to break nearly all the components on my first electric bike (iZip ZUMA rear hub).  I too snapped a rear axle, stretched the chain, wore down the gears, went through the rear derailleur, blew out the original front forks, wore out tires, blew countless spokes (I always kept 1 dozen on hand), and even fried the controller.  What I learned was that these bikes were not CARS designed for 100,000 miles.  The stuff wears out.

The new bike has the advantage of a good shock, soft tires and slightly better components.  I am hoping the cushion keeps the spokes from breaking.  I am wary of the chain being under such an enormous load.  I so far have 550 miles on the new bike (since September) with about 50 miles on sand.  I am surprised how much the sand just 'flits away.'  Time will tell but I am more consciously lubricating the chain and derailleur whenever I hear any minor chunking sounds. 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 23, 2016, 04:18:41 PM
Thanks everyone.

Thinking back on the events of that day, when I rode down the wheelchair ramp to the beach, the bike had a strange wobble. I thought maybe a tire was flat.

I'll bet the axle bent unloading the bike from my van that day. Then it wobbled when I took off, and that stressed chain.

I just roll the bike out of the van and let it bounce on the pavement. Oops.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: stoneaxe on December 29, 2016, 08:56:38 PM
Got the package from Pono. Now for the bike, battery....and helmet.....maybe body armor too... :P
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 30, 2016, 04:05:03 AM
Stoneaxe,

I have been reading up on bent axle fat bikes. I found lots of threads on it. Some, think it's a design flaw in fat bikes. Longer axles are required, but nothing has been done to upgrade axles over regular mountain bikes using 2.25" tires with much shorter axles.

So I searched out the largest through axle fat bike choices. 12mm RR, 15mm Frt. I was very disappointed. Only bikes above $1200 from bikes direct and the-house have this.

On to plan B. The new bike category called Plus bikes, with 27.5 x 3" tires. These use shorter axles, yet come with the same hardened through axle 12mm RR, 15mm Frt. Here is the kicker.....these bikes are way, way, cheaper than fat bikes. Fat bikes are a rip off because they are the hot bike right now. I'm not riding in snow. I can ride the beach with 3" tires just fine. Most beach cruiser don't have tires that fat. I can ride the road at super high tides.

I ordered a plus bike with front shock. High end hyd brakes, BB7. Motobecane, all for hundreds less than fat bike. It arrives today.

http://bikeisland.com  this is bikesdirect scratch and dent outlet. I discoverd this outlet after ordering mine. They didn't have my bike anyway.

The Plus Bike category is so new, few people even sell bikes with 3" tires. I read somewhere that tire size only went into production about a year ago.


Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Glowmaster on December 30, 2016, 04:43:24 AM
They are finishing the extension of the Cape Cod Rail Trail bicycle trail in Yarmouth right behind where I work.

So my 3.8miles commute will be 1.3miles of smooth level bike path. I am biking to work next year!

I dont want to build my own Ebike, and am deciding between the Surface 604 colt, Radpower Radcity or FLX trail premade.

All 3 in the $1500-1700 range.  Any comments on premade E-bikes?


ed
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on December 30, 2016, 07:22:11 AM
DW, great point on the Plus bikes, I expect my Trek is considered that. Not a full-on fatty. I don't think I've bent an axle on my cheap-ass Mongoose yet, but it's not for lack of trying. I am careful not to let it drop taking it out of the truck--I bent the rear axle on my three wheeler by letting the wheel drop off my tailgate. Also flat-spotted the rim and loosened a bunch of spokes. 

The motor I sent to Bob is for 100mm bottom brackets, though it can be spaced for narrower, as long as the spacers are well-made and tight. Tape and PVC pipe won't cut it. My trek needed a spacer, I bored the inside of some heavy tubing so the fit was perfect, but the OD was a little small inside the BB, so I added lateral weld lines and ground them to fit. I thought I could turn them down to fit, but even the lightest cut looked like it was going to rip the toolpost off my lathe. Looks like something from the days of steam, but it doesn't jiggle.

Glowmaster--all three look surprisingly good for the price point. I'd gravitate towards the FLX trail because of the midmotor and larger battery. the motor is pretty anemic, but the gearset will make up for that to some degree. Of the two hubmotor bikes, the Radpower looks to be the best spec, and perhaps the best bike, though pictures and basic specs can be deceiving. Yugi is undoubtedly a better judge of that.

If he doesn't respond I'd PM him and ask him to take a look.



Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 30, 2016, 07:45:20 AM
The Motobecane Plus bikes have 100mm bottom brackets. That's what fedex is bringing me today!
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on December 30, 2016, 08:03:39 AM
Wow, those look really good, for not that much more money.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on December 30, 2016, 08:25:31 AM
I took a peak. I know nothing about motors so just looking at the bikes the FLX by FAR. The other look lame and have 26” wheels.

FLX:
+ ve  Looks good.
+ ve  makes engineering sense
+ ve   decent components spec (bike built around the mid motor)
+ ve 27+ wheels, excellent tires (my fav).  The other bikes are 26” wheels. Has been, for a reason. They will begin to fade and be less available.

Colt Electric Cruiser Bike
-ve  looks like a woman's bike
-ve 26” wheels

RadCity Electric Commuter Bike:
-ve: Ugly! Sorry, a bike must be esthetic.
-ve: mech disc brakes. Sorry, needs real brakes.
-ve 26" wheels

[edit to add]
One downside is you'd need to buy a better lock for the FLX. No-one would want to steal either of the other two - so they have that going for them.

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Glowmaster on December 30, 2016, 06:11:29 PM
I hear you Yugi

how about this one?

https://shop.m2sbikes.com/collections/frontpage/products/xc-mid-drive-electric-commuter

Why is 27.5" better than 26"?

thanks for your advice.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on December 31, 2016, 03:38:06 AM
I hear you Yugi

how about this one?

https://shop.m2sbikes.com/collections/frontpage/products/xc-mid-drive-electric-commuter

Why is 27.5" better than 26"?

thanks for your advice.

OK, heres the Mtb wheel story. Much like SUP sizes and norms you will see.

There are 3 wheel sizes in Mtb: 26”, 27.5”(650B), and 29”(700C).

Bigger wheels roll over little bumps easier. Meaning better rolling and more comfy ride. Everyone would have gone with the bigger size right fro the start but with big wheels you got less room to squeeze in a fat tire to fit in to your frame. That’s basically the juggling act and here is how it unfolded.

The original crew in the SF area racing clunkers off-road were looking into building their own bikes allowing for fatter tires on their bikes. No room for that with big road bike wheels (and the rims were too skinny). The funny story is that they were actually looking to get 650b rims (AKA 27.5”) but couldn’t source them but they could get 26” rims. So they went with that and it became the standard.

Gary Fisher rocked the boat after 10 years and came out with the 29” wheels with lets, say mid fat tires. Works much better for a rigid bike without suspension because the wheels make for a better ride. But there still isn’t room for a long travel suspension bike to use these big wheels. So Suspension bikes were still 26”. OK, you’ll see some 29” full susp bike but they are short travel. With all the buzz about how bigger wheels work some guys took the good old 650 rim size standard  (AKA 27.5”) made full susp bikes with that. Marketing! Bigger is better right. Everyone whined “WTF, why another size” but after a few years of whining 27.5” won, because it is just that bit better. 26” will begin to fade out including tires for it, at least the top end ones. I still have 26” and I’ll buy a new DW board and then a new foil SUP before I need to switch. But I would never buy a new bike with 26”. 2nd hand, yes because they are going for next to nothing.

27+ is simply a bike built with 27.5” wheels but with enough room in the frame to accommodate fat tires, 2.5” or 3”. Fat tires are “poor mans suspension”. Nice!

If I got an eBike it would be for distance commuting so I’d get 29” wheels. Fine for dirt roads and stuff like that.

The FLX you’re looking at is the little brother of their fuss susp bike, just rigid. Hence the 27.5” wheels. It’s built for off road. (and has nice off-road tires)

So, like everything. Depends on your use.


I took a peek at M25 XC sport. It’s similar to FLX.
- first. It’s not bad looking but the FLX still has a cleaner look. I do have a soft spot for all black bikes. Whats with those silly orange highlights on the M25??? They think it’s 1980 or what?
- I dunno exactly what to look at in a motor but the FLX motor looks more powerful. I like power.
- you might get all excited that the M25 has a slightly higher spec derailler and 10 speeds over the FLX 9. But the 9 is better for eBikes. The chain is stronger (10 gears needs a narrower 10 gear chain).
- I dunno if the M25 has this but the FLX brakes seem to cut the power. Sounds like a sensible feature.
- M25 tires are a bit more road/dirt mix. But don’t let that sway you. Tires are things to replace anyway.
- otherwise they are similar frames, wheel size and spec.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Zooport on December 31, 2016, 05:49:14 AM
I like the look of the FLX you mention because it doesn't scream ebike.  Battery concealed in a slightly larger downtube and motor concealed in the crankshaft area.  If you will commute on bike trails shoulder to shoulder with licra clad, road bike dudes, you often get hassled and catcalled, at least here in OC.  Nice to have your technology less obvious. 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: stoneaxe on December 31, 2016, 09:11:30 AM
Catcalls because you have an electric bike.....what a bunch of losers.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Zooport on December 31, 2016, 09:23:14 AM
Catcalls because you have an electric bike.....what a bunch of losers.

Losers, I agree.  The most common catcall is yelling "cheater" at you as they go by.  Which doesn't make sense, other than they view bike riding as a competition and nothing else.  I usually respond with a thumbs up.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Glowmaster on December 31, 2016, 10:24:26 AM
Radcity and FLX are cadence sensors for pedal assist,

Surface 604 is torque sensing (which makes a lot of sense to me) and the

M2S has the new Bafang max mid-drive that combines torque and speed sensing at 80Khz.

This is so high tech it makes me have to think!

thanks for the feedback guys, very excited to pull the trigger, but it is also tempered by the other post of "came within inches"......


ed

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 31, 2016, 03:14:38 PM
I did a kitesurfing downwinder today using my new Motobecane Plus bike. I love the 27.5 x 3 tires. They work great on the low tide hard pack. The pure soft dry sand, its squirrelly. But so is a fat bike, just less so.

But on the road, no comparision. The plus bike is so low drag compared to fat bike, I enjoy using it with motor off. Can't say I enjoyed fat bike motor off.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on January 01, 2017, 01:21:38 AM
Radcity and FLX are cadence sensors for pedal assist,

Surface 604 is torque sensing (which makes a lot of sense to me) and the

M2S has the new Bafang max mid-drive that combines torque and speed sensing at 80Khz.

.....

I got the impression the FLX was going to be delivered with some version 3 of the motor which is torque sensing, and also has a throttle.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Glowmaster on January 01, 2017, 06:20:27 AM
thanks Yugi,

you are correct about the FLX torque sensor. That, and finding out that the M2S has no throttle, made up my mind.  I am taking your advise and getting a FLX trail and a good lock. 

Had no idea about the wheel size history!

Happy New Year!!!


ed


Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: stoneaxe on January 01, 2017, 10:21:24 AM
I know nothing about bikes....is this the one you're talking about DW
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/fat-bikes/fat-bikes-fantom275-x7-plus.htm
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 01, 2017, 03:59:37 PM
I know nothing about bikes....is this the one you're talking about DW
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/fat-bikes/fat-bikes-fantom275-x7-plus.htm

Yes, that's my bike and what I paid.

Only thing that still breaks my heart is knowing it only cost http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/mountain_bikes/529ht_29er_mountainbikes.htm
$399 with 2.25" tires. The risk with the $399 version is not knowing some details, like whether 3" tires can be swapped in. They don't give axle size details or bottom bracket length (100mm?).

We're getting ripped off going for the hot bike size, although not getting ripped off as bad as fat bike buyers.

BTW, my rims are narrow. It looks like same rim used for 2.25" tires. I sure wish we had both bikes side by side to measure.

Anyway, mine works great. Love the high end shifter and hydraulic brakes. So much better. I just ordered hyd brake sensor wires from lunacycle. I tired going without the sensors, but yesterday Bafang had dumb moment and was spinning tire and throwing sand with throttle off and no peddling. Brake lever motor kill feature would have been handy at that moment.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Zooport on January 01, 2017, 04:33:25 PM
thanks Yugi,

you are correct about the FLX torque sensor. That, and finding out that the M2S has no throttle, made up my mind.  I am taking your advise and getting a FLX trail and a good lock. 

Had no idea about the wheel size history!

Happy New Year!!!


ed




I agree with your choice.  I'm interested in one of those for trail riding.  I have a street only bike and would like another.  Please give us a review once you get your bike dialed in. 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 01, 2017, 04:44:21 PM
I know nothing about bikes....is this the one you're talking about DW
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/fat-bikes/fat-bikes-fantom275-x7-plus.htm

Bafang needed one tiny shim to clear frame. When I tore stock bottom bracket cartridge out, there was a washer in there, that was perfect shim needed.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Zooport on January 01, 2017, 05:36:56 PM
They are finishing the extension of the Cape Cod Rail Trail bicycle trail in Yarmouth right behind where I work.

So my 3.8miles commute will be 1.3miles of smooth level bike path. I am biking to work next year!

I dont want to build my own Ebike, and am deciding between the Surface 604 colt, Radpower Radcity or FLX trail premade.

All 3 in the $1500-1700 range.  Any comments on premade E-bikes?


ed

Glowmaster, here is the bike I bought for my wife about a month ago.  It's an EVO Eco Lite. Unisex, step thru frame.  Great bike.  Battery concealed in the downtube, 500W geared motor on the back axel, mechanical disk brakes.  Rides great.  Tops out about 20 and cruised easily at about 17 hardly pushing on the pedals.  Throttle or 5 levels of pedal assist.  Shocks aren't great but they help a little.  We haven't tested the range, but it appears to go about 25 miles on a charge, specs say 50, but I doubt that.   $1699.  We love it.  The looks don't scream "eBike!" as I said before, that's a blessing on bike trails where agro traditional cyclists are.

Here's a link.  Wow, I just noticed, we got a good deal on this bike:
http://www.electriccyclery.com/shop/electric-bikes/easy_motion_e-motion_electric_bikes/e-motion-evo-eco-lite/?gclid=CLXpvLmrotECFUlqfgodQ4QIKQ
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 02, 2017, 10:19:41 AM
Here is the Mongose fat tire next to the Motobecane Plus tire

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi238.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fff242%2Ffishersfort%2F77F8C520-1274-4707-848B-8E7B01645FB4_zpsh8unzmud.jpg&hash=d7770f7582e54102da03c1c741d24d1b)

Here is the tire clearance on the Motobecane

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi238.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fff242%2Ffishersfort%2F94426476-CA08-4C23-AAB5-DF87F118B7AA_zpseob5csgz.jpg&hash=e62f685c1c3fc1f483ad1ef30130dc04)

Here I think you can see the skinny rim.

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi238.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fff242%2Ffishersfort%2F2AAFC4E9-BC20-4199-B33F-3F1BD1E338B1_zpsgnzx22mw.jpg&hash=8c0071cd500c9666078cdb2904cbe768)
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on January 02, 2017, 02:04:48 PM
I'm going to make the argument FOR the FAT tires, considering the thread is for fatbikes.

I realize that there ARE NOT many people like DW or me that truly want to ride the bike down the sand BUT for those that do I have found that I my 4.0" tires are on the smaller side. 

I have been thinking that I would add larger tires because in soft sand it takes everything to keep my bike going.  Considering that I weigh 180 the bike is 60 lbs and the added board, surf rack, wetsuit and dinner from the night before could be 50+ lbs the entire rig is starting to push 300 lbs.  We have 6 foot tides and semi steep beaches so the only time you get hard pack is at dead low tide otherwise you are zipping along and sinking from time to time into soft patches trying to maintain speed.

It looks like I have the capacity to add 4.5" tires, with 1/4" on each side, and given all the power from the Lunacyle 1500 Watt motor WHY NOT GO BIGGER..  The electric fat tire bike is like the HUMMER of bicycles. 

Here is a video of my return from surfing in Miramar Beach, HMB CA.  Truly awesome to just bike along and stop at your own private spot.

https://vimeo.com/196988268

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on January 02, 2017, 03:42:22 PM
Just did a check on weight distribution.  I had thought that the majority of weight would have been on the rear tire.  But hopping on the peddles and standing on the digital scale I measured:

153 lbs Front Tire                -----            142 lbs Rear Tire

With this board on the rack. 

I was considering JUST using a wider REAR tire but this suggests a more even distribution that I thought.  I am sure that sitting in the saddle would move the CG backward alittle BUT this even distribution supports the argument that a center mounted bottom bracket motor results in better weight distribution than rear-hubbed motors.  A wider tire could also let me run with slightly higher tire pressure potentially resulting in better sand and road handling.

PS: If you look closely you can see that my kick stand snapped in half.  Ah the joys of pushing the limits with new technology.  Fortunately only $12 on Amazon. 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 02, 2017, 04:08:04 PM
I wondered about wider tires too. I also wondered if my Mongose tires were hurting traction. The Mongose tire is like a motorcycle tire. Side wall is so heavy, it doesn't mushroom at low air pressure.

My Motobecane 3" tire has side walls paper thin like a race bike. I can't run very low air in them.

How are your high quality fat tires?

This is so fun....

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Zooport on January 02, 2017, 04:39:23 PM
Just did a check on weight distribution.  I had thought that the majority of weight would have been on the rear tire.  But hopping on the peddles and standing on the digital scale I measured:

153 lbs Front Tire                -----            142 lbs Rear Tire

With this board on the rack. 

I was considering JUST using a wider REAR tire but this suggests a more even distribution that I thought.  I am sure that sitting in the saddle would move the CG backward alittle BUT this even distribution supports the argument that a center mounted bottom bracket motor results in better weight distribution than rear-hubbed motors.  A wider tire could also let me run with slightly higher tire pressure potentially resulting in better sand and road handling.

PS: If you look closely you can see that my kick stand snapped in half.  Ah the joys of pushing the limits with new technology.  Fortunately only $12 on Amazon. 


Beasho, I'd like to see the construction of your side rack that can carry a SUP.  Looks like it was made from PVC pipe.  Tell me about how you did it.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on January 02, 2017, 05:13:53 PM
Softer tires for sand. You can go very low with tires like that.

Just get some Stans noTubes liquid in there for in case you hit a rock or a curb to not get snake bits (rim hits).

Doesn't look like you have much clearance left. Don't over do it, you need space for a rainy day and mud.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on January 02, 2017, 06:35:06 PM
Beasho, I'd like to see the construction of your side rack that can carry a SUP.  Looks like it was made from PVC pipe.  Tell me about how you did it.

Basic setup I discussed here.  I am a few generations passed this version but still the same fundamental design.  I have swapped out the Plastic PVC T's for Copper and am currently using 1.25" PVC.  The rack is strong enough to carry people.

http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,13907.msg121927.html#msg121927
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on January 02, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
As I said The Rack is Strong Enough to carry people

https://vimeo.com/197842995
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: TEX_SUP on January 02, 2017, 06:45:29 PM
I'm going to make the argument FOR the FAT tires, considering the thread is for fatbikes.


I've found 4 psi works great for the soft stuff ..... floats right over everything, and that's just using my legs!

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: SlatchJim on January 03, 2017, 08:56:38 AM
The stress test worked.  Your daughter looked pretty stressed  ;)
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 03, 2017, 12:19:05 PM
Wife asked to go bike riding today. Afterwards, she said she wants an E bike. She was worn out chasing me.  :D
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 10, 2017, 02:27:40 PM
I just added this suspension seat post to my bike. I found myself riding over too many bumps seated and taking shots to the spine. Normally we'd stand when riding over bumps, but with the motor, it doesn't feel stable and natural to stand. I think I'm missing the stability you get from driving hard on the pedals when standing.

Anyway, this seat post blew my mind. It works way better than I thought it might.

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi238.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fff242%2Ffishersfort%2F9C7CB62E-90A2-481F-B210-838AC469E528_zpsk5aqtkn7.jpg&hash=28b51ffa1b5f6e783444f11515d9b9df)
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Glowmaster on January 10, 2017, 04:54:48 PM
that suntour suspension seat post looks awesome and is on my list of upgrades once the FLX arrives.


ed
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Zooport on January 10, 2017, 04:59:16 PM
that suntour suspension seat post looks awesome and is on my list of upgrades once the FLX arrives.


ed
Ed, would you start a new thread in Random when your bike arrives?  I have been interested in one of those FLX bikes too and would love to read your first impressions and ride report. 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Glowmaster on January 10, 2017, 05:03:55 PM
Willdo.

Random is all me.


ed
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 15, 2017, 03:04:56 AM
It was a tight fit on my wife's 13" Motobecane. Battery had to mount outside the frame.
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi238.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fff242%2Ffishersfort%2FF8716AB3-EBF2-442E-8414-E687BACDFC21_zpslxzq8fwg.jpg&hash=0bba1eac454e133d5d9bae4330d05299)
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on January 15, 2017, 08:48:46 AM
Nice!
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Zooport on January 15, 2017, 10:13:06 AM
That bike looks trail worthy.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on January 17, 2017, 02:26:10 PM
I'm going to make the argument FOR the FAT tires, considering the thread is for fatbikes....

I have been thinking that I would add larger tires because in soft sand it takes everything to keep my bike going.  Considering that I weigh 180 the bike is 60 lbs and the added board, surf rack, wetsuit and dinner from the night before could be 50+ lbs the entire rig is starting to push 300 lbs.  . . .

It looks like I have the capacity to add 4.5" tires, with 1/4" on each side, and given all the power from the Lunacyle 1500 Watt motor WHY NOT GO BIGGER..  The electric fat tire bike is like the HUMMER of bicycles.
 

I ordered a 4.5 inch tire off Amazon - KENDA Juggernaut 26X4.5.  Measuring the difference between the original 4.0 inch and the replacement "4.5 inch" tire I am seeing close to a 20% jump in width.  As measure from edge of tread 3.6 inches on original "4.0 inch" tire to edge of tread on NEW rear tire 4.25 inches. 

The difference in the soft sand is remarkable.  The bike now floats over the soft stuff vs. struggles.  All the difference in the world.  The rear tire worked so well I may not even have to replace the front tire.  The clearance is JUST BARELY visible.  The little Nobby "fingers" were flicking the frame but I'll take it. 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: GOTWAVZ on February 24, 2017, 11:45:05 AM
Lunacycle just released its full complete bike for those who dont want to build their own.  It looks pretty amazing. 40 MPH!!!


https://lunacycle.com/luna-rhino-cargo/

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on February 24, 2017, 02:36:45 PM
That's one solid piece of kit, from about the only company I'd trust to deliver what they promise. Good folks.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: starman on March 21, 2017, 10:49:46 AM
Since I can't find the $$$ for an ebike at the moment I think I have a solution, have a bike and a dog........

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/dogpower/192830112


Certainly would help with range anxiety.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: paddlejones on March 25, 2017, 07:09:21 AM
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/alex-rims-shimano-e-bike-motor-miranda-xmod-crankset-taipei-cycle-show.html

Shimano is sliming down the e bike motor...

Usually the new product is not on the cheap side...
but a cheap e bike seems to run 1200+

With a cheap gas motor at 125 + bike
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on March 25, 2017, 08:10:32 AM
Interesting motor. The comments are typical, so many bike guys are whiners and fashion freaks. "You're not doing what I do--that's bad". Sissies. I think it comes from having that lycra tucked up their asses.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on April 18, 2017, 08:46:58 PM
Cool thread.   This inspired me to look into chain drives, I was previously scared power driving the chain would be dangerous.

My electric bike was stolen out of my garage earlier this year, I wrote about it here:
https://clayisland.com/trusting-bike-thieves

I love my new replacement bike, a lot of the comments here resonate with me.

I learned 2 things with my old rigid frame electric:
1- even minor bumps are bone jarring and teeth rattling at 15+, some kind of shock absorption is crucial in front.
2- hub motors suck and chain drives are a huge upgrade, faster, lighter, and more effeciant.

My new bike is just plain fun, I ride it like it's a full suspension MTB and it's a blast on any terrain.   It's so fun I ride it more often and look for excuses to take it out.  There's a great farmers market 10 miles away and I enjoy the ride back even with a heavy fully loaded backpack.

Also makes DW shuttle runs twice as fun.

I drive a lot less, so it will eventually pay for itself.  I had my old bike for 2 years and it paid for itself in fuel savings.

Highly recommend   ;D

Clay whats the frame manufacturer and wheel size you have there? Searching  craigslist for a 29er with a good quality fork for my daily commuter. I like to have the ability to off road the beast a bit , but will be used mostly to get to the train station a couple miles away.

Thx

CLTSUP - It is a Specialized Fuse with 650bx3.0" (27.5+) tires.  I wanted an XXL frame and a slack headtube so that narrowed my choices really quick  :)

I had a flat last month and the tire went completely flat but it didn't come off the rim like happened to Beasho.  Tire was on there good and there was a trick to removing it.


Clay, you were absolutely right, my bike is a specialized Fuse as well. I have no idea why I thought it was a Trek. Only took me half a year to figure that out.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: outcast on January 31, 2018, 06:02:56 PM
Reviving this tread....great info here
Ready to pull some kind of e-trigger so a couple of questions re the bafang builds

I am most worried about time, and would do a workover on my Elllsworth Truth if i could slap things on , but  don't really want to give in more than a few hours and not equipped for machining

The alternative is the FLX Trail which has an integrated 750 Bafang an 17A
 like the idea of later being able to later cannibaize that if i don't like it, and the frames not  horrible, but i guess i wouldn't have the motor casing...etc

Anyway, what i do't want to do is get into machining, a new chain, etc so it is about time.....Thoughts on the FLX as a starter platform for  newbie????

I have a Schwinn Stingray with a rear hub 500  waiting , but needs the works and a new front fork
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on January 31, 2018, 09:52:10 PM
So here's the thing about Bafeng conversions--they do fine with slapdash. The drive slips through the bottom bracket and snugs into place. You need to get the fit reasonably snug but beercan shims work. Steel cans are better than aluminum, but that's the limit of sophistication required. And no, you don't want a 750, you want a 1000HD. Get it from LunaCycle. The owner (Eric Hicks) is a nut, but he's my kind of nut.  A nut who makes good shit, and stands behind everything to a ridiculous degree unless he doesn't like you.

If by machining you mean you don't own a hacksaw, then measure the bottom bracket of your Ellsworth carefully and order the right width Bafeng. Luna has shim kits and sprocket alternatives. Start with stock unless you see something you just have to try. Gearing when you have 1500 watts available and lots of torque is kind of not a huge deal. My Piece-o-shit Mongoose has decided the first two gears are not reachable. I'm sure I could fix it but why? Incidentally, the seriously cheap Walmart Mongoose has proven to be seriously tough. I've beaten the shit out of it, rode it hard and put it away wet. Anything that can rust, has, and it works perfectly--except for those two low gears. Which probably need two minutes and a screwdriver to fix.

Luna's new battery packs are very high tech. Get the biggest you can afford/fit. Everyone thinks about eBikes in bike terms. 100 miles is something you do once or twice a year on a bike. On an eBike, it's any old time--four to six hours. My minimum ride is thirty miles. When you're doing 18mph up a six percent grade the whole world changes.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: outcast on February 01, 2018, 07:28:11 AM
Think I just needed that push...Thanks....I've had bottom bracket rebuilds that took too long, so it is a mostly a time thing for me

Beer can shimming is a known art to me.

If I told you that the Ellsworth is the Vincent Black Shadow of the Mountainbike world it might pique your interest...I think it will be a good platform, so Thanks
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on February 01, 2018, 07:35:23 PM
The bottom bracket rebuild in this case is knocking everything out, pushing the Bafeng through and tightening the lock nuts. So simple. I converted my Fuse back to standard bike (I liked riding it in Post Canyon better as a non-eBike) and installing a new BB took FOREVER. The day after I finished it got stolen. If it had still been an eBike it wouldn't have been where it was.

If you love your Ellsworth as it is, then don't convert it. Get a cheapo Mongoose. The standard mtn bike ones are even cheaper than the fatbike. I think less than $200. The shitty loose ball BB and junk pedals wind up in the trash.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: yugi on February 03, 2018, 09:52:36 AM
Elllsworth Truth is a classic holy grail of light and long travel. Will always be a classic. Classics has esthetic quality and holds value in the hearts of connoisseurs.  Don't change the frame and do keep the original groupo. Classics have mroe value with original groupo.

Anyone ever ride a VeloSolex? I loved those things. The lightest and fastest of mopeds. So old school, exquisitely simple and 10x the milage of even a moped. The gas tank was like a quart. 

I grew up always more of a cyclist than a thottle-head but nevertheless spent time on mopeds.  As mopeds got better they got [speed] limited by law. I remember a time when cops were keener on catching suped up mopeds than drunk drivers. They'd do moped roadblocks and test moped speeds in a van equipped with a speed test bed for 2 wheelers.

VeloSolex were already old school. The cheapo clunker of mopeds. The like motor assist was no crazy acceleration but always there as a bonus thoughout. No top speed so on flats faster than mopeds.

I just came across this:
   https://www.add-e.at/en/technical-information/

Silly price. Too bad. 98% of the VeloSolex charm was it cost worlds less than full moped power.



Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on February 08, 2018, 12:47:27 PM
Need some help:

My BBSHD Phat Tire Bike is Phantastic. 

However 16 months in my chain started skipping. 

I replaced the Entire Chain, and the entire Rear Cassette.  BUT the chain still skips.

I can see wear on the front ring (all Steel) and I am willing to change it out as well but What the Heck is going on?

When the bike was new it would skip if I was in a large rear sprocket going up a goat trail.  Otherwise it was rock solid.  Now if I start from a stand still, and am in a small rear sprocket it will skip and the chain will come off 30% of the time.  I have to shift to a larger rear every time to avoid this.

It is a 10 speed rear, and obviously a skinny chain.  I would be happy to just get it back to New Operational State. 

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: ChefBoyRD on February 08, 2018, 03:22:12 PM
ALoha Beasho,
I was having similar problems with my e bike as well,
I switched the  to the  "bling ring" from Luna cycle  and this made the   difference, no more skipping 
As P Bill mentioned Luna cycle is the place I go for my ebike parts, anyway that helped me.
 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on February 08, 2018, 06:10:26 PM
Common problem. Make sure the derailleur is well adjusted, especially the high and low gear stops, and make sure there's adequate derailleur tension. You can shorten your chain to increase derailleur wrap as long as you don't go too far and get to the point it can't shift. Realize that any sprocket or chain wear means only the first few teeth are handling the torque. I generally change gearsets and chains at the same time though I didn't after I broke my chain. The stock front sprocket is generally OK, but Luna Cycles has alternative sprockets that have better teeth. The zooty ones with alternate long and short teeth are particularly good for retaining the chain. Don't go too low on the ratio unless you want to climb walls. 40+ teeth. If I was in HR I'd send you my Luna 30T sprocket to try--worthless for me, but it might be great in sand and on trails. They also have KMC chain which is supposed to be good stuff. The ten speed rear cassette takes the most narrow and wimpiest chain and has the wimpiest, most narrow sprockets. You can convert your rear cassette to eight speed and be a bit more sturdy or go all the way to five-speed. The rear cassette on my Mongoose looks like a piece of crap, but so far it's been bulletproof with no maintenance. I've broken the chain once, and after reading your post I went out to count gears (seven-speed) and realized my rear cassette is completely filled with mud and grass between the gears. It's been working just fine. Something to be said for getting cheap shit. You can get a cheapo Shimano five- or seven-speed cassette/freewheel for less than fifteen bucks then switch to the appropriate chain. Worthwhile beefing these things up though you can accomplish a lot with just adjusting the derailleur.

If you want to go all-in you could replace the derailleur with an Alfine hub, or a Rohloff. or even a nuvinci and then use single speed sprockets and chains, or even a Gilmer belt drive. That's what I have on my trike. The most bulletproof option is a Sturmey-Archer internally geared hub, it's what most rickshaws use. Cheap, but hard to get--they only sell to OEMs. I've been trying to get one of their eight-speed hubs for some time.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: eastbound on February 15, 2018, 07:21:50 AM
check the deraileur tension spring before you throw doughola at this, beash--i am not an ebike guy, but that'd be something i'd check on a normal dreailleur equipped bike, where things seemed to be sdjusted properly, yet chain kept a skippin
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Weasels wake on August 23, 2018, 08:47:04 PM
I reanimated this old (not that old) thread because when it first got started, it even further peaked my interest in these.  Been following, waiting for the right time, and the right type of bike that I didn't have to build myself, and one with a good reputation, as far as I can tell, and not over priced.
So, I just pulled the trigger in this bike the other day, the "Rover" from Rad Power Bikes, from Seattle.
7 speed, 5 power ranges, 26" wheels, w/ a 750w hub motor.
25 to 45 miles/charge, depending on power used, 20mph tops w/ the stock gears, but others have been changing those out and getting them to go about 45mph, as if you'd want to, I don't.  I just need the power to get my ass up a cardiac hill that goes up to my street w/o having to peddle if I don't want to.  I hate that hill.
My cost was $1499, no tax, free delivery, but the prices on all their models went up $200 just today due to tariffs, so they say.
I don't have it yet, it's being shipped, but I'll give my feedback after I get it and use it for awhile, pretty stoked.
Go to their website for more info if you want.

P.S.  I don't plan on doing any serious boondocking, this is mostly for checking out the surf conditions up and down the coast, asphale to dirt roads, and dirt parking lots, some trails, not too interested in salty sand, all rural.



Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on August 23, 2018, 09:12:10 PM
Rad power does a nice job. I still prefer mid drives to hub motors, but the hub motors have been getting better. They outnumber mid drives far more than ten to one since they are the simplest and cheapest way to electrify a bike.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: digger71 on April 30, 2019, 08:43:29 AM
Reviving an old thread is search of some direction. Getting ready to place orders for my build and have a couple questions.  Build info is below:

Saw this at costco and it looks pretty solid for the price.  Thoughts?
Northrock fat tire bike from Costco for $299 (in store price)
https://www.costco.com/Northrock-XC00-Fat-Tire-Bike-.product.100467336.html

Fourth Anniversary BBSHD Mid Drive Kit Special (Details below)
https://lunacycle.com/bbshd-kit-special/

The bottom bracket measures exactly 100mm.  I've read that the 120mm BBSHD should be fine with spacer.  Does that sound correct?  The smaller version is not available at this time.

Is the Brake Cutoff something I need?
How about the Gear Sensor?
Programming cable?

Can't wait to get started!

Choose Your Programming Level: Hot Rod Program (For Off Road Use Only)
Bottom Bracket Size: 120mm (Extra Fat)
Display Options: Luna 750c Full Color Display for BBDHD and BBS02 $45.00
Throttle Choices: Bafang BBSxx Universal Thumb Throttle
Optional Ebrake Cut Offs: Hydraulic and Disc Brake Sensors with Cut Off (Pair) $20.00
Battery Options: 52v Luna Wolf 30q 12ah $200.00 (Highly Recommended)
Upgrade Your Included Charger: Standard Barrel Charger
Install Spacers and Helpers (Highly Recommended): Luna Install Helper - Spacer and Adapter Kit $10.00
Optional Programming Cable: Bafang Programming Cable $19.95
Add Luna Tool for Installs for only $10.00: Luna Wrench $10.00
Add a Reccommended Gear Sensor: GearSensor for Derailers and Internal Geared Hubs $45.00
Add a Luna One 36T Chainring at a Special Price!: Anodized Black $50.00
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on April 30, 2019, 11:52:40 AM
The Bafeng kit comes with cutoff-equipped brake levers for mechanical brakes. Those disks are probably mechanical, if that's so you don't need them. The color display is nice. I have it on my HR el-cheapo fat tire. Spacers for sure, and I prefer the 120mm for flexibility though it spaces the pedals an extra 20mm wide. Not a huge deal, but noticeable if you're an experienced bicyclist.

I'd go for the Luna chain ring. You might find 36t a little low geared, but it's a reasonable size and will work better than the stock.

As far as the bike goes, it looks fine from the pictures. I like the idea of an aluminum frame. My Maui Mongoose is rusty in places where I've bashed it. I've done my best to break this thing without success, but the Maui air might dissolve it.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: paddlejones on May 21, 2019, 12:17:03 PM
https://www.fezzari.com/wirepeak

For a bike that is pretty dialed right out of the box... Not cheap, but it is a value compared to the big bike brands. Pretty close to the new MTB GEO

and for a review...

https://reviews.mtbr.com/fezzari-wire-peak-elite-e-bike-first-ride-review
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Chan on May 21, 2019, 01:53:43 PM
That looks amazing.  Have you tried one?
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: paddlejones on May 21, 2019, 05:39:31 PM
No not this one, I got to try my neighbors giant full suspension e bike, it was great. But I would like the 29” wheel option of the Fezzari
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on May 21, 2019, 08:07:12 PM
Five grand for a bike with a 250 watt motor and a 500 wh battery? Umm, okay, I understand I'm not the guy this is aimed at, but I don't get it. That's a big shot of why bother. If you're going to actually use an electric bike you need some power to spare and a big enough battery so you don't wind up at the bottom of coronary hill with a dead battery and a 50 pound bike.

If you want to spend that kind of money for an eBike then at least get one with some serious specs.
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-9vkjq73s/images/stencil/2048x2048/products/1724/10801/surron_red__36302.1549068233.jpg?c=2)

This thing ships with the motor limited to street-legal in 50 states 750W, but two minutes with a screwdriver takes the limiter off and gives you 6000 watts. That isn't some kind of hop up that going to fry the controller and motor, it's a 6000 watt mid drive motor with all the drive components sized to live with that power. It's also a pure sine controller which means the motor is quiet and smooth, and it has adjustable regen braking. Or leave the limiter on and it's three times more powerful than the Fezzari. Take the limiter off and it's 24 times more powerful. The battery is 1920 wh. $3600. 40 mile range on the limiter or if you don't spend all your time being a hooligan.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: paddlejones on May 21, 2019, 08:53:56 PM
Bill for me it’s the the mountain bike design. It’s what I am riding without the motor.

I bet that specialized fuse was a great bike with and without the e motor.

Looks like the shimano motor has room to improve. Also why Specialized is claiming big improvements this year... but at a huge cost
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: surfsupla on May 21, 2019, 09:51:50 PM
Bill. My bro in law has that bike. It is amazing. And at $3600 i think is the best value electric bike out there. But its honestly more of a motorcycle. Great for commuting. But would get kicked of mtb trails in a heart beat. The way i see it is the pedal assisted bikes are more for the trails and less for commuting. 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on May 21, 2019, 09:56:44 PM
I don't see the weight listed, but you can be certain that thie Fizzari weighs two or three times more than a quality mountain bike--probably at least 30 pounds and maybe 50. With that kind of weight, does the bike remain useful and fun? To my thinking there just isn't enough power and capacity to bother with--a 250 watt motor will be stressed getting you up a modest grade. This looks to be positioned as a mountain bike with occasional electric assist, but does that really work? Is that small amount of power worth the added weight?

I took the motor back off my Fuze because I enjoyed the bike more without the motor, the weight difference made the bike nasty to ride on a challenging singletrack. On the road and in less challenging terrain it was great--but it had 1000 watts and 1200wh of battery capacity. I think you need to gain enough capability to make the added weight worth it, and I can't see how 250 watts would do that, unless the entire drive system is miraculously light.

Yeah, you don't need to go as crazy as the Sur Ron, but you need some beans for eBikes to be worthwhile. 250 watts isn't a lot of beans.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: paddlejones on May 21, 2019, 10:26:43 PM
Yes 30 lbs for a mtn bike


50 lbs for an e bike. I’m wondering how that feels to ride on the trails.

I wonder if the bike manufacturers are sticking with the 250 watts in order to keep them from being banned from the trails
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Admin on May 22, 2019, 04:57:13 AM
A lot of people are having an amazing time on the mountain bikes trail riding, jumping, etc.  They consider it a different sport...but they are smiling.  The big complaint is that they are burning through drivetrains.  All that torque comes at a price.  Dinky chains, rings, etc. that are adequate for human legs are no match for these electric motors when they are being ridden for sport. 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on May 22, 2019, 06:58:52 AM
The big complaint is that they are burning through drivetrains.  All that torque comes at a price.  Dinky chains, rings, etc. that are adequate for human legs are no match for these electric motors when they are being ridden for sport.

Agreed! The weird thing is that I haven't broken any chains yet.

I have stretched plenty of them.  About ~ 18 months they need replacement.  And my chain rings get all toothy.  But never broken a chain.  And I have a few thousand miles on the BBSHD from Lunacycle.  Plenty of power.  1,800 watt motor.

Prior to the BBSHD Fat-Tire I had a 500 Watt iZip.  Stretched those chains and broke almost every other part on the bike but the frame including snapping a rear axle.  But no broken chain.   
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on May 22, 2019, 07:40:26 AM
A lot of people are having an amazing time on the mountain bikes trail riding, jumping, etc.  They consider it a different sport...but they are smiling.  The big complaint is that they are burning through drivetrains.  All that torque comes at a price.  Dinky chains, rings, etc. that are adequate for human legs are no match for these electric motors when they are being ridden for sport.

It's probably more of a weight factor than torque. It's not just human legs, it's standing on a pedal and putting full weight on it. For a 200 pound guy and a 6" crank that's 100 ft lbs of torque. A 1500 watt ebike motor at 500 RPM generates 10 ft lbs of torque. If it was generating  full torque at 50 RPM (unlikely) that would be 100 ft lbs. The benefit of a motor is that it can generate that torque all the time and can therefore generate a lot more power. But power doesn't break stuff--torque does. Power wears stuff out. Simplistic way of thinking about it, but it's true. And it's why Beasho and I don't break chains but stretches them (actually, wears them out so they get loose and therefore are longer).

Bicycle gear is marginally strong to begin with. Anyone wanting an e-bike to last has to pay attention to manitenenace. I don't bother, I just replace the worn-out stuff. It's cheap and easy.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Admin on May 22, 2019, 02:50:40 PM
One of the attractive things about e bikes for trail riding is powering up steeps.  That is just fun.  Guys are out riding up stuff that legs don't like, particularly old legs :).  This is now possible even from a silly-steep 0 mph start.  That is where the torque comes in.  It puts a lot of strain on the parts.  Stretch, wear, or break, the service shops are delighted.  It seems like a much more robust drivetrain is needed for mountain biking. 

This incoming Flyon motor is really cool.  The video below is a fun watch.  The Haibikes (that will be coming with the Flyon's) are pretty expensive but I like those plenty.  That is why Chan is posting about "more reasonable" options.  :)
(https://img.newatlas.com/haibike-2019-flyon-ebike-2.png?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&q=60&w=1000&s=ba4f37f95b7d8d75886f079bf9cc0c57)

(https://s14761.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/07/Haibike-XDURO-AllMtn-10.0-TQ-Systems-News-eMTB-eBike-3-von-33.jpg)

(https://electricbikeaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Haibike_MY19_XDURO_NDURO_100.png)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3wbkdyBWT4
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: paddlejones on May 22, 2019, 04:42:58 PM
I wonder if Luna Cycle would come out with a direct bolt in swap for the shimano e-bike motor...

Not much standardization yet with e-bikes

I have seen the SRAM NX Eagle group noted as e-bike rated, not sure if it means anything
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on May 22, 2019, 11:00:53 PM
All the big bike company stuff seems to be designed for European regs. which is largely 250 watts which is just hardly worthwhile. The US max for 50 state legal is 750 watts, which is more like it, but still kind of weenie. The relatively ancient Bafeng HD weighs 13 pounds and is capable of 1500 watts all day long. You can build a bike with a cyclone mini with 2000 to 3000 watts with a motor assembly that weighs 7 pounds. Where you put the battery is up to you. If I wanted a stealth MTB it would have a fully hacked cyclone motor and a backpack battery/controller. Ten pounds heavier than a standard MTB with four Lance Armstrongs on drugs helping me pedal. You'd never know it had a motor until some geezer blew by you and tossed dirt in your face.

The production bikes are built to satisfy weenie regulations in places like Finland or Wales that don't apply once you hit the dirt anyway. It's real simple, if it's less than 1000 watts, why bother?
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: paddlejones on May 23, 2019, 07:02:27 AM
https://ebike-mtb.com/en/lapierre-ezesty-am-ltd-ultimate-2019-review/

This bike shaves 10 lbs & you can remove the motor & battery and ride it

Not Cheap, not sure if we can buy it in the us, probably only 250 watts
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on May 23, 2019, 08:48:21 AM
That flyon motor looks a lot more like a reasonable solution: 88ft lbs of torque and 920 watts in its highest spec. Couldn't find any info on weight, but it looks like it could be light. Kind of eye-watering price for a dabbler like me, but I guess serious MTB riders are more used to dropping $10k on something with pedals.

The DIY aspect of eBikes is fading as a primary source pretty quickly, the more advanced systems and components are aimed at OEM design rather than being anything a home hacker can deal with. Even BaFeng is changing their focus toward components for large manufacturers, and Luna Cycles features completed bikes rather than components. All the stuff is still available, but you have to search for it, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it emphasized even less in a few years
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Admin on May 23, 2019, 09:52:14 AM
That flyon motor looks a lot more like a reasonable solution: 88ft lbs of torque and 920 watts in its highest spec. Couldn't find any info on weight, but it looks like it could be light. Kind of eye-watering price for a dabbler like me, but I guess serious MTB riders are more used to dropping $10k on something with pedals.

The DIY aspect of eBikes is fading as a primary source pretty quickly, the more advanced systems and components are aimed at OEM design rather than being anything a home hacker can deal with. Even BaFeng is changing their focus toward components for large manufacturers, and Luna Cycles features completed bikes rather than components. All the stuff is still available, but you have to search for it, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it emphasized even less in a few years

Haibike has a bunch of MTB models with Flyon motors but the least expensive is still $5,800.00 US.  They are reworking the motor for North america with 20 MPH restrictions (as opposed to the 15 MP model for Europe where I beleive they are already available).  Unfortunately it will be 2020 before they get here. 

Here is an interesting interview with the Flyon designer.  He is an awesome character:

https://youtu.be/V0qkfShozH4?t=322
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: TallDude on May 23, 2019, 10:44:56 AM
My wife has been riding with her friend on her friends e-mountain bikes for over a year. Her manual full-suspension 29'r has been sitting in our garage mostly unused now ::)  I've been keeping my eye on these lately as there maybe a gift purchase for her coming at some point? They ride in the hills above our house which has a huge network of trails. The e-bikes might rekindle my interest in mountain biking. The crazy climbing that my wife likes to do, is opposite of the crazy down-hill I like to do. All that up hill is too much for my aging knees which is why I quit riding. Plus my old Gary Fischer hard-tail feels harder on my tail these days :-\

That Fylon motor has built-in algorithms that apparently compare your right and left leg stroke power and adjust the motor accordingly. I'm not sure if it averages the two sides, or actually increases the assist on one side for each individual stroke? A little AI in there. It seems like the motor wouldn't be able to ramp up and down in such micro burst to make that correction on every stroke? 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: starman on May 23, 2019, 12:36:19 PM
From my experience the bafang kits still have a lot of life. The bikes coming from companies like Hibike are beautiful and the PAD systems are very refined but...the 20mph limit and the proprietary battery make it very restrictive both for riding and future battery replacement. Considering the ability to program the bafang controller one can get pretty close to the feel of the torque sensing motors. There is even the EggRider display available that allows you to change program settings without the need of a cable and laptop.
If I was buying an bike for the wife for sure it would be something like the Hibike. But for me, after riding with a Bafang, i love the power and would hate to lose the throttle.
I totally agree with Admin, the drivetrain takes a beating. I had to replace my rear hub, spokes and upgraded to the SRAM EX1 cassette and derailer kit. I do see the future being a motor with gearbox with a direct drive belt eliminating the bicycle drivetrain entirely. This is the kind of ebike I'm saving my $$$ for:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=el7Yk3axtSw
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on May 23, 2019, 12:49:31 PM
It seems like the motor wouldn't be able to ramp up and down in such micro burst to make that correction on every stroke? 

Of course it would. The motors are more or less AC three phase motors (brushless permanent magnet DC) and the sine waves that power the motor are synthesized. The torque can be managed in time increments of the drive frequency. At 1000 RPM the period is .001 seconds (the motors are geared down to pedaling RPM. Given a pedaling rate of 60 RPM the power could be adjusted every one thousandth of a stroke or better.

Doesn't really take AI, a torque sensor tells the controller how much the rider is applying and the controller can make that effort up to a average value per full stroke. If your right side was stronger than your left controlling to an average would give you more poop on your weaker leg. Nice, and easy to do.

Slap a Bafeng HD on that 29" and she'd probably love it. Weigh the bike she's borrowing first and see if you'd be in the ballpark for weight. My el cheapo mongoose weighs 51 pounds, but that's with a ridiculous battery.

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60911414_10156504890718668_5523723350230171648_o.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_eui2=AeFc1cRzRgmOOfmOcJaN3IHuIW0vv8d7cvOFBZ2Q2JeSYwJH2FDlip2s97oga09wLQjbYu_eHQHF4fxSa4Iu0QLYMb77TQ1a4-JAASYyfv1r1w&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=1011db8ce28d675132403f14376118a4&oe=5D64CA78)
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: TallDude on May 23, 2019, 03:40:34 PM
It looks pretty tight in that space. She rides a smaller frame with the 29" wheel and the frame geometry on 29" bikes puts the front wheel even closer to the pedals. The swing arm and downward shock mount fill that bottom bracket area up. I think she has 'Pro pedal' on that which reduces bouncing when you pedal, but it mounts the swing arm above and in front of the bottom bracket. She has her purist MTB club that she still rides with on occasion, and they all frown on the e-MTB. I don't think I should mess with her existing bike, just get her or build her a separate one.
She said her friend's eMTB are heavy. The batteries have died on them and she said they've had to push them up the hills. You can't pedal a dead one up a hill because they are so heavy. And that's coming from someone with powerful climbing legs. 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on May 23, 2019, 05:08:38 PM
Yeah, that doesn't look like a great candidate, and no, you can't really pedal these things far without an assist. That's why I have a big honking battery. Mine will go about 40 miles on a charge unless I get too happy with the throttle.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Admin on May 25, 2019, 09:44:45 AM
PS, Here is a fun vid showing the Haibike Flyon hardtail (about $5,500 US) with a really good rider.  Airs pedaling uphill.  That really changes things.

https://youtu.be/6r2mMwnX8Mc?t=199
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: southwesterly on May 25, 2019, 10:23:56 AM
This is my fat tire e-bike. It's a Rad Power Bike. This is the Mini. $1499, free delivery and no tax.

750 watts, 5 levels of pedal assist, has a throttle, folds up and fits in my car, gets 50 miles plus on a single charge and goes like a bat out of hell.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on May 25, 2019, 01:53:33 PM
Rad makes a lot of nice bikes. If it wasn't so easy for me to build them I might buy one.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: eastbound on June 04, 2019, 06:19:52 AM
sw'ly---spoke to a guy on one of those at a red light on my ride this morning--he said it's been great, battery solid for >5 months already---

i like the exercise, so far, of commuting/riding self-propelled---and i worry about danger--it's bad enough on a self-propelled--worry it might be worse on the electrics--a bit faster, and maybe, more relaxing??  so unlikely i will take the plunge

but the rad power bikes look compelling---you never know, might get one for the household
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on June 04, 2019, 10:12:17 AM
You really have to brutalize Lithium batteries to have them die in a year or two, or design the pack badly. Packs last about 2000 charging cycles, individual cells can go much longer. There's a whole DIY powerwall community out there recycling removable Lithium laptop batteries by ditching the dead ones and testing the remainder for capacity before using them. Check the groups out on Facebook--it's a thing. These cells start their new life as powerwalls with thousands of charge cycles on them, and last for many thousands more. If you narrow the charge/discharge cycles to 50/80 percent the current thinking is that most cells will last for their stored float lifetime, which is .37 percent loss of capacity per year for older chemistries. Ten years gets you to 96 percent capacity, a hundred years is 60 percent. Battery life is not an issue. Abuse is the issue. I know firsthand, I've abused the shit out of many.

People still jump all over the mining issue for lithium and rare earth elements, as if oil and coal came from butterflies and dewdrops. The stuff is all still there after whatever you choose for a lifecycle. Eminently recycleable. People are weird.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on June 04, 2019, 11:04:09 AM
Batteries are NOT the problem.

I now have 4 electric bikes.  ~ 10,000 cumulative miles between these 2. 

99% of my surfing for the past 8 years has been by bike carrying 1 or more boards.

I bought a 2nd Battery for the bike on the LEFT after 4,000 miles and 5 years.  It started to 'sag' and would get me to and from the beach with the board as quickly as it did when new.  The bike on the right has 2,500 miles and is still on its first battery. 

I have stretched chains, broken axles, snapped spokes, replaced transformers, worn through 10's of tires, brake pads and cables.  But the batteries NOT the main problem.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: eastbound on June 04, 2019, 11:07:37 AM
Beasho,

Is that a yellow sup on your rack, behind the foilboard??

be careful--Lucifer would not be pleased!

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on June 04, 2019, 12:13:57 PM
Is that a yellow sup on your rack, behind the foilboard??

Yes!  I had a friend in town aka we needed to get 3 boards to the beach but only 2 bike racks.  So I doubled up the rack with 50+ lbs of boards.

My rack has been stressed test.  The rack can hold people when you put line struts attached to the frame.

See this:

https://vimeo.com/197842995
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on June 04, 2019, 06:26:25 PM
I bought a 2nd Battery for the bike on the LEFT after 4,000 miles and 5 years.  It started to 'sag' and would get me to and from the beach with the board as quickly as it did when new.  The bike on the right has 2,500 miles and is still on its first battery. 

If you took the pack apart and tested the individual cells you'r find a few that are "resistive" meaning they won't charge and slowly drain the pack, but most of the cells would still test at 90 to 95 percent capacity. Take out the bad ones and replace them with new one and your "recycled" pack will go another 4000 or so miles.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: paddlejones on June 21, 2019, 08:46:11 AM
This looks like a good option for a starter bike to add the elect motor
https://www.framedbikes.com/collections/mountain-bikes/products/bobtrax-alloy-sram-x5-27-5-bike?variant=17666970615859

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on June 21, 2019, 12:09:13 PM
This looks like a good option for a starter bike to add the elect motor
https://www.framedbikes.com/collections/mountain-bikes/products/bobtrax-alloy-sram-x5-27-5-bike?variant=17666970615859

This is a good bike.  The challenge is the cost of the add-on's.

I built my Fat-Tire bike with a $1,000 Motobecane from BikesDirect and then added $1,600 of electronics.  My bike is a beast.  But for the 'Value' you might just get one of these pre-built with free shipping and NO Tax:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/e-bikes-electric-bicycles/ebikes-electric-bikes-elite-eadventure.htm

Or this one with rear Hub Drive I am a fan of the Bottom Bracket motor.  However this bike is bad-ass and >$1,000 less than mine was to build:

$1,500

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/gravity/ebikes/electric-bikes-fat-bikes-bullseye-monster-xe-ebikes.htm

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on June 25, 2019, 08:49:49 PM
Hub motor. Uck.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Weasels wake on June 29, 2019, 08:30:13 AM
Hub motor. Uck.
I know you don't like them, but many do, it all depends on what you're after, and what you can afford.  I'm hub drive all the way, it checks all my boxes, and if it's good enough for Kelly, then...………
His is one year older than mine, but it's the same bike, 100% satisfied.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on June 29, 2019, 09:57:45 AM
It's probably been a very long time since Kelly Slater bought anything in the category of equipment, and these days with the value of influencers in the market he's probably getting some serious bucks to be seen using anything with a commercial aspect. People with more than a few thousand followers no longer just accept product to shill, they send their rate sheet to anyone that wants to sell them stuff.

People used to jump through all kinds of hoops to fabricate mid drive bike motors. Mounting hub drives in the frame loop was fairly common. Mid drives are becoming far more popular and are starting to approach the price of hub motors, which actually have more parts, a lot of limitations, and are more difficult to repair or service. With the DIY aspect of eBikes in steep decline (or at least not growing as fast as ready made, and therefore de-emphasized by sellers) and the general popularity if eBikes ratcheting up rapidly the more sophisticated designs will get commoditization very quickly.

And of course "Hub drive, uck" doesn't represent a cogent argument or carry any engineering rationale. It's just an opinion. But yeah, I don't like them.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: outcast on June 29, 2019, 06:58:12 PM
For $1600 The Rad Rover is worth an occasional uck

It does everything i need it to do.   It was just too easy to click send...

 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on June 30, 2019, 07:14:00 AM
True that, the Rad power folks make a nice bike. I probably have 1200 into my el Cheapo fatbike. Maybe a little more. It's a much higher spec motor and battery than most people would need, but I like going briskly up the hills and I hate running out of battery. I've got 1200 watts if I want it, and I did a 48 mile ride a few days ago and didn't run out. It was close, and I was pedaling with minimal power most of the time, but I made it back to the shop with two bars left. Whatever that means. I left the wattmeter in the cruiser.

I need to build some basketry for elCheapo. I'd use it more if I could conveniently carry stuff.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: 1tuberider on July 01, 2019, 06:29:15 AM
1200 watts only twice the wattage of my v2 luna at a cost of around 700 delivered.
Must be nice to be able to understand and build.

I screwed up not diagnosing and bought a new battery because I thought my old one failed. The battery
housing was broken from hard rides on the beach. After new battery got plugged in and bike still did
not work, I did more thorough diagnosis only to find a plug in contact was not tight enough..

So now I have both mounted for those long beach rides. I have pushed the bike 6 miles in the past
on soft sand with 50 lbs of rocks on it. No fun   but not no more.

Because I am inadequate at electrical stuff, I only have around $1500 tied up in batteries.
The good part  I have doubled my range. I did up my soldering ability.  for cost  Lets see, $1200 bike,
$1500 in batteries and $600 for the motor kit. Yikes you might do better with a complete bike. 

I figure less than 20 lbs for the power. Totally worth having the extra range for my use.
Power more than makes up for weight.



Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: Beasho on July 01, 2019, 08:37:33 AM
1200 watts only twice the wattage of my v2 luna at a cost of around 700 delivered.

There is definitely a cost/benefit here.

Please post your source for "v2 Luna at a cost of around 700 delivered."

I got my wife an electric bike for Christmas.  This model has hub motor and NO throttle but she loves it.

The price on this model drops to $699 at times:

https://lunacycle.com/luna-low-and-fatty-wolf/
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: 1tuberider on July 01, 2019, 09:56:11 AM
v 2 Battery from Luna & shipping & sales tax and premium clear case.
It was around $750 delivered. So now I have two 52 volt 13.5 ah batteries
on the bike. Not cheap. 1st battery case broke after a couple of uses.
NO support on warranty. After two years of use and a totally broken
housing I thought it was done. Nah just my bad diagnostics.

Its ok. I like having the extra mileage. I get so remote when I use the
bike, I like the one less worry. 
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on July 01, 2019, 01:11:49 PM
Ah, you misundertood my sloppy writing 1Tube. My motor is 1200 watts. I can kick it up to 1600 but I toasted a controller doing that, so I decided 1200 watts is enough. It's just a programming hack.

My battery on El Cheapo is the 24ah 56V Luna. I built a 40ah 60V battery, but it was heavy, so I took it apart and just stole the battery from the Cruiser I built. That's 1344 watt/hours. That battery used to be about $550 but I think it's $700 now.

The big difference is that my donor bike was a $200 mongoose. It's been just fine, it could use more brakes than the dinky mechanical disks that came on it, but it's good. I imported a pallet of 12 BBSHD motors from China a few years ago, in that quantity they were about $480 with shipping.

So El Cheapo is $200+550+480 = $1230. At current proces from Luna it would cost about $1600. Most people don't need a 1344 watt/hours, but I like having a bigger tank of fuel.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: 1tuberider on July 01, 2019, 01:40:52 PM
Easy to do. confuse me that is.
My costs are similar except for the bike that was 1500 as it came with nuvinci
hub that failed. So converted to cassette. Another sum. And then an extra
battery. My bike frame is aluminum.
You can do better with a complete bike than I did. I was some what early in,
and not a specialist or informed. I am happy with my wheels for off road
riding. Its primary use is beach, but I take it in the mountains for silent
hunting. Now with the extra range less concern about pushing.
I have a 3000 watt motor for you if you want it. I don't need it.
20 mph is plenty fast.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on July 01, 2019, 02:38:24 PM
Sure, I'll take it. Cyclone??

A little suggestion--set up your batteries so you only plug in one at a time--don't connect them in parallel. That's how I set up my trike. I could ride until one battery was exhausted and then switch to the other. Best way to make sure you don't have to push as long as you remember to charge both batteries.
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: outcast on July 02, 2019, 06:01:27 AM
PB,
   The rack that you can get for the Rad Rover is pretty beefy aluminum, although I'm sure you could build one up.
   With bags and all, I hauled a 112 lb load on it...Duffle.. auto parts/weed wacker etc....Too top heavy and
   750w  underpowered that day, but  I am using it as an island hauler, and again, that rack holds well

   I just had to add my time into the costs,  because although I would have enjoyed the build, at this point with 3 teens it would have just been another project, and I think that if I ever wanted to up the game that the Rover platform would be a good base
Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: 1tuberider on July 02, 2019, 06:45:53 AM
Yeah Pono I think its a cyclone. Bought from Luna.
I am going to be in Mt Hood area 3rd week this month. I can deliver or
mail. If cards line up, it would be nice to get wet.

I plug in batteries separately. My connector is xt-90. Had to make
a charging harness for each. Simple plug and play. Hakko iron
works so well.

I will post a picture of bike later.

Sea ya

Title: Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
Post by: PonoBill on July 02, 2019, 12:26:10 PM
Cool, bring it along, I'll be glad to hook up with you for some water stuff.