Standup Zone Forum

Stand Up Paddle => SUP General => Topic started by: Easy Rider on August 25, 2015, 11:00:38 AM

Title: Leash Use.
Post by: Easy Rider on August 25, 2015, 11:00:38 AM
Have just sent this to as many people in the SUP Industry that I have contacts for. 
If you are related to the sup industry and would like to be involved - please message me here. 
Thanks
Warren







To Whom it May Concern,

In light of the recent tragic event in the Gorge this past weekend, we are penning this Open Letter to the Stand Up Paddle Industry.
We believe that we, as a collective industry, must take a vehement stand in the education and encouragement of the use of leashes on all types of SUP’s, on all types of water, and in all conditions. 

With the exponential growth of SUP, there are a great deal of boards being sold with very little safety education accompanying the sale.
Like seat belts in cars, leashes save lives on SUP’s.  If it is far enough to paddle - it is far enough to wear a leash. 

A few ideas as to how to implement this are:
- A sticker on the tail of the board near the leash plug that states “Leashes Save Lives”
- Only showing images (both still and video) of paddlers that are using leashes.  This is especially important in Manufacturers brochures and Industry publications (magazines).
- A Public Service Announcement video - featuring the top Pro’s in the industry advocating the use of leashes. 
- Instructing Team Riders that they should be setting the example by always wearing a leash.

We need to educate our customers on how to safely use our products.  Unfortunately, as is often the case, it takes a tragedy to create the momentum for positive change.

Please feel free to reply to this email with any comments and or questions, and please share with any industry related SUP businesses. 

Thank you,

Warren Currie
Easy Rider

Dave Kalama
Imagine / Quickblade
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: stoneaxe on August 25, 2015, 12:00:38 PM
Excellent idea and long overdue.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 25, 2015, 12:03:40 PM
I like.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 25, 2015, 12:05:57 PM
Great, and thanks.


I also like that this puts the focus on the leash, not the pfd.  If the industry is successful is getting people to wear leashes, it will be good ammunition against more pfd rules.  And of course it WILL save lives. 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PDLSFR on August 25, 2015, 12:16:58 PM
It also needs to be mandatory for Rentals, part of the rental process should include signing the rental agreement/waiver form that states that leashes must be worn while on the board, no exceptions !! SUP instruction should also make the leash an integral part of their lesson.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Tom on August 25, 2015, 01:25:38 PM
Great idea . I  like  the  education  and encouragement  tact  better  than  regulations .
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 25, 2015, 04:21:11 PM
I got a PM from a Zoner talking about doing safety videos, a great idea, and an important part of the larger effort. I'd suggest holding off on connecting this to the recent tragedy until someone talks to the family. If they get bent out of shape about this it would backfire in media--it could seem like capitalizing on a tragic circumstance. So perhaps start planning and organizing, but hold off on any general announcement until the T's are crossed.

I'd also suggest making an effort to get some logical regulation passed in the US. I'm tired of seeing people with no leash paddling in dangerous water with a PFD tied to the nose of the board. Wear a leash or wear a PFD and it's advisable to wear both. The USCG doesn't understand leashes and doesn't understand SUP. That's an unacceptable excuse. Time that they either got smart about what works or get out of the regulatory business.

I'll be glad to help in the effort. Money, time, contacts, whatever. I don't want to see this happen again.

Incidentally, leashes are not a panacea. An educational effort needs to be complete. There are places where a leash is VERY dangerous, for example, anyplace with fast current and a risk of entanglement, and there have been deaths caused by them--two with SUPs that I know of. In both cases if the victims had been wearing a PFD instead of a leash it's likely the outcome would have been much better. 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Easy Rider on August 25, 2015, 04:30:16 PM
Agreed Bill. 
Thanks for the notes. 
I have already been contacted by a SUP Film maker that is willing to do some sort of PSA.

I think that the main focus needs to be the safety education of all paddlers - on all water. 

If the Industry comes together and takes the lead - it can only be a good thing.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Badger on August 25, 2015, 05:08:53 PM
I'm all for it as long as it doesn't result in a leash law.




Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: stoneaxe on August 25, 2015, 06:31:10 PM
What are the thoughts on a BOP style race.....nobody (or very few) is going to want a leash in those conditions when the in and out exchange is so critical to timing. We recommend but don't require them for the SUPathon. Wondering if that needs to change.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 25, 2015, 06:55:30 PM
Stoneaxe--peterp said something related to this earlier:  "Around here everyone downwinding is wearing a leash - we don't allow any racers not to wear a leash and now it has just become the norm. The only time a leash is a chore is when doing a beach start - so we don't do them...we start knee-deep and then the leash is never in the way..."

That makes sense to me.  Absolutely, it seems downwinder races should be set up so there's no time penalty for wearing a leash.

The starts of all the races I've ever been in (all flatwater lakes or rivers) have been on boards in the water, or standing next to boards in shallow water--no beach starts, no in-and-out running.  So if you wear a leash, you lose only a couple seconds taking it off at the end (typical races here end with a short run, but many just end paddling past a buoy which doesn't even require any leash removal). Even in the longest races I've been in (13 miles) I've always been close to other paddlers and fairly close to safety boats and/or the shore.  I don't think there's a big safety drawback to not having a leash in those because of that as well as the flat water and lack of current.

BOP-type races seem like a more complicated issue.  Ocean and waves mean leashes make sense. Lots of nearby racers means no leash is less of a safety issue since people are nearby to see you in distress and help out.  Beach starts means leashes get in way.  In-and-out beach runs between laps means time penalty for wearing one...

Certainly how starts and finishes are set up impacts leash wearing so your question is important.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 25, 2015, 07:27:58 PM
really, a leash on an in and out beach run can be accommodated--just requires rethinking the leash a little. A belt with a side clip, a loop on a camelback. Quick clip and you're done.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Off-Shore on August 25, 2015, 07:45:21 PM
I think this is a great initiative from the industry by the industry for the industry. I would also add that those individuals who work for the brands who are responsible for the pictures used for advertising their boards should mutually agree to always show their products with leashes being worn. Right now I am looking at a banner advertisement from a major brand showing race boards, and not a leash in sight...
Title: Leash Use.
Post by: nj_sup on August 25, 2015, 07:51:15 PM
Agree whole heartedly and thanks. PB great thoughts. PB what about using a coil leash in those conditions? Quick release strap would help no? Big thing is knowing how to use the quick release. I agree if in those circumstances and a coil leash is not doable then should be wearing a pfd. It's amazing to me that people who can't swim would SUP and kayak. That I just don't understand.

I believe that SUP is taken too lightly at times. I see it near me in the bay where people have a pfd strapped to the front of the board with no leash. If you don't watch the wind and tide you will be quickly swept out the inlet in no time. Witnessed it more than once when a panicked newbie didn't realize the force of the current and couldn't get back to shore before being swept out the inlet. No leash and you fall off and watch your board sail away with nicely strapped pfd on the board, all while being swept out to ocean from the bay. My nephew lost a college rugby teammate swimming in that same area being swept out. Found three days later. Usually at least one drowning a season, some years more.

Went to Bass Pro shops today in Atlantic City. They sell SUPs. Thought of it later to check if they sell leashes. I will check the next time I go. While their fishing and hunting staff are local and very knowledgeable I could guarantee that those working in the kayak, SUP dept have know clue which way the paddle is suppose to face, let alone the benefits of using a leash.

Yesterday while standup surfing the local pier, this guy goes out with his SUP without a leash. What a beauty. Paddles out on knees and falls, swims to board. Gets back on. Paddles out, stands up to catch wave and falls, nice missile screaming down the break amongst a bunch of proners. Reflects great on us Repeats this for two more times. Grabs board and walks to us on beach (we were getting ready to head out) and says I didn't even realize I didn't have my leash on the board until after I paddled out, makes perfect sense to stay out trying to surf with no leash

I always wear a leash at a minimum. I wear a belt type inflatable type III pfd when not surfing, I wear it paddling in the bay or when distance paddling in the ocean. I keep my iPhone in a life proof case in a JOTO waterproof case with me. If I paddle across the inlet or in the ocean on rougher days distance paddling I take my PLB with me. I always check the wind, tide, current and forecast before I head out. I've been in the ocean fishing since 15 yo, know of way too may bad outcomes, can't be careful enough.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: cruzanboard on August 25, 2015, 08:54:40 PM
All this talk of safety gear and prepping for a session reminds me of general aviation flying. I am a private pilot and there is a LOT that gets done before I even 'head out' to the sky. Why would the waters, ocean in particular, be any different?

There is a poster with a picture of an old biplane lodged into a tree. The saying goes . . . .
"Aviation, in and of itself is not inherently dangerous.
But to an ever greater extent than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving
of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect."


I see that poster every time before I fly.
Based upon the sea's ability to 'eat people', I now wonder which one is more terribly unforgiving.

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Easy Rider on August 25, 2015, 09:41:11 PM
The issue of leashes in actual races is not really an issue.  At races there are not only other paddlers - who WILL help a fellow paddler in distress - there are usually a few spectators and most importantly there is usually some sort of "safety" in place.   
The issue is for the "average" and or newbie paddler that buys their board from a source that provides NO safety instruction at all.   
As for why - "Leashes Save Lives" - a leash is the simplest safety device available to us - and if we as an industry and "family" of paddlers can't educate and encourage leash use - then my fear is that the governments will regulate something for us - and it will be much more intrusive than a leash.   
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 25, 2015, 10:12:08 PM
Yeah, I realized after I posted the bit about QD leashes that it isn't really the issue at all, and focus is important if we want to get something done.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PtBobSup on August 25, 2015, 10:29:58 PM

Incidentally, leashes are not a panacea. An educational effort needs to be complete. There are places where a leash is VERY dangerous, for example, anyplace with fast current and a risk of entanglement, and there have been deaths caused by them--two with SUPs that I know of. In both cases if the victims had been wearing a PFD instead of a leash it's likely the outcome would have been much better.

Was lucky enough to spend an hour with Dan Gavere talking about how to safely get started in the river.He strongly recommends a leash.  There are a couple of techniques for installing the leash so it will release from both ends and that is the key. 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PtBobSup on August 25, 2015, 10:33:38 PM
The issue of leashes in actual races is not really an issue.  At races there are not only other paddlers - who WILL help a fellow paddler in distress - there are usually a few spectators and most importantly there is usually some sort of "safety" in place.   
The issue is for the "average" and or newbie paddler that buys their board from a source that provides NO safety instruction at all.   
As for why - "Leashes Save Lives" - a leash is the simplest safety device available to us - and if we as an industry and "family" of paddlers can't educate and encourage leash use - then my fear is that the governments will regulate something for us - and it will be much more intrusive than a leash.   

Warren, don't add the hedge.  Leashes are always important.  Racing or not.  People will do what they do but I think the message should be simple.  Don't give folks the excuse of racing to skip it.  1 minute and 47 seconds is al it took for that fellow in Hood River to vanish.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 25, 2015, 11:08:15 PM
The issue of leashes in actual races is not really an issue.  At races there are not only other paddlers - who WILL help a fellow paddler in distress - there are usually a few spectators and most importantly there is usually some sort of "safety" in place.   
The issue is for the "average" and or newbie paddler that buys their board from a source that provides NO safety instruction at all.   
As for why - "Leashes Save Lives" - a leash is the simplest safety device available to us - and if we as an industry and "family" of paddlers can't educate and encourage leash use - then my fear is that the governments will regulate something for us - and it will be much more intrusive than a leash.   

Warren, don't add the hedge.  Leashes are always important.  Racing or not.  People will do what they do but I think the message should be simple.  Don't give folks the excuse of racing to skip it.  1 minute and 47 seconds is al it took for that fellow in Hood River to vanish.
You're right the message should be simple, and it is:  "Leashes Save Lives".  But ER's answer isn't a hedge--it's true, for all the reasons he lists.  People racing without leashes--especially the typical flatwater race--isn't the problem.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Off-Shore on August 25, 2015, 11:28:15 PM
Flat water racing is not the problem. It's the habit people get into of not using a leash and not having a leash always attached to a board that is the issue. If the leash stays in the bag / car / cupboard and is only ever used when it is mandatory then they are forgotten; they become not the norm.

IMO this paradigm needs to change so the norm is the leash is always on the board and everyone uses it. I tell beginners who start out on glass like conditions on a surf style board that the beauty of a leash is when you fall off, the board is never far away from you, and you'll always be able to find it quickly. It is a safety feature and when you start going out when it's windy or choppy this will always keep the board close to you..

Every board our family and I use has its own leash that never comes off the board unless it is being replaced. My kids are the first to tell me if we are renting boards, "Dad, but they don't have leashes!".. That's the paradigm I'm talking about. And usually when I ask, the rental places always seem to have leashes stashed somewhere.. I think one of the reason they don't keep them on the boards is they get taken...
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Badger on August 26, 2015, 03:38:02 AM
We also need someone to invent an unbreakable leash or at least make them better.

Even if people do wear their leash, who is going to be there to tell them when to replace it.

I watched a guy in his sixties surfing in some overhead surf over the winter. His leash broke, his board came floating in and he had a very long swim. I talked to him when he got to shore and I looked at his leash. The urethane cord had snapped. The velcro cuff was all ratty and faded. His leash looked really old or maybe he just left it out in the sun too much.

Maybe we need expiration dates on leashes or a warning saying to keep them away from heat and sunlight. Better yet, invent a leash that won't break.

The silliest thing about leashes is that they are held to the board by just a piece of string which can chafe through and get weakened by sun damage depending on what's used. There has to be something better than a piece of string.

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: stoneaxe on August 26, 2015, 05:50:12 AM
I kind of think the events/races are very important. Perception and peer pressure is what we are trying to change. Where does the tribe gather? The actual use is more important in everyday situations but if we are to change the culture it has to be all in.
We require leashes for our other events but the beach in and out makes it difficult for the SUPathon. We have on and off water safety but does it ever really replace a leash? Someone can go under pretty quick. A leash obviously even allows for quicker rescue if a paddler is incapacitated. We could have a lifeguard every 20 ft and still not get to someone quick enough if they went under and didn't come back up. Rips/currents could have someone 50 ft away or even far more before anyone responded.
I think I just talked myself into what we need to do....doesn't matter the format, leashes required.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: eastbound on August 26, 2015, 06:03:57 AM
badger--this has been argued about in the past, but i use two pieces of string, on slightly longer than the other. the tensioned string fails, the other has been relaxing, awaiting its moment of glory! i wrap the two with a bit of 3m electrical tape to keep from catching a toe or finger in there.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: 1tuberider on August 26, 2015, 06:37:31 AM
I believe the zone is at the front lines of education and we identified early in the development of the sport that
a leash is going to keep you near your board and that the board is a flotation device.

We cannot control the bravado attitude - I need no stinkn leash.

I see it in the surf zone by surfers who often are talented. When one ventures offshore,
put your leash on. Set an example because others are noticing. You will not catch your board in
winds over 25mph and maybe even less. Oh, you left your life jacket on the board. DA! You can watch
your board get further away as you helplessly chase it and wear your self out. Hopefully you won't be
a statistic. Bravado greatly increases your chance of being a statistic or leading someone else down the
wrong path to be a statistic.

Accidents happen. Check you equipment. Having a leash that breaks or falls off is the same as not
having a leash only worse because you have false confidence in your gear. Leashes stretch, nick and break.
Leash hardware fails and leash attachment cords can fray. Replace it before it breaks.

Don't be fooled. Mother nature is not forgiving and newbies may not know better. Regardless, be a good example
and it may save someone else or your family from grief of loss of a loved one.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 26, 2015, 06:49:43 AM
I'm on the PaddleFit Facebook group and Brody Welte came out against mandatory leashes. I posted a respectful disagreement. I think there are points to be made against a leash but it's better to have one. Beginners especially.

I had a leash mishap just the other day. I was on a wave and the leash wrapped around my fin somehow. I managed to stay standing but afterwards there was a bit of detangling. Does this mean I'm now against leashes? No.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Wetstuff on August 26, 2015, 07:05:32 AM
The better leash idea needs to be expanded two ways: strength and release. 

There was a posting not long ago of a rental where a young woman was swept under a barge on an inland river.  If memory serves, she was leashed. Perhaps one of the companies could make a simple 'quick release' like we had with kites if things go to Chit.  I still fumble in the shore break getting out of a DaKine ..and that's at the knee.  I do not think I will ever use an ankle leash with a SUP again ..after a few long drags by a heavy cruiser.

We have SUPers locally who find leashes 'too much trouble'. (interferes with their 'style') You will never get 100% of any group to act responsibly. 

Jim
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Tom on August 26, 2015, 07:28:07 AM
wetstuff, I  always  wrap  my  lease  the  same  direction  so  I  never  have  to  think  about  how  to  release  it.

On another  note ,  I  think  that  we  should  try  to  get  someone  other  than  the  Coast  Guard  to  endorse  leash use, maybe a  lifeguard  association .
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2015, 08:17:20 AM
So, did we wander far enough, fast enough? 

1. Leashes save lives -- make a campaign about it. Stickers, ads, endorsement.
2. Encourage leash use in all advertising and magazine/blog pictures
3. Petition Coast Guard to change regulation to either wear a leash or wear a PFD (you see PFDs tied on leashless boards because current regulation WORKS)
3. Safety video about leash use, PFD use, and how to plan for a safe experience.

That's it. That's a solid start. Save the rest for later unless you see something vital missing. Emphasize everything and you emphasize nothing. Most importantly: Leashes Save Lives.  Get behind it, make it happen.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 26, 2015, 08:19:49 AM
I like that slogan, Bill. I'm going to start spreading it.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PtBobSup on August 26, 2015, 08:24:27 AM
So, did we wander far enough, fast enough? 

1. Leashes save lives -- make a campaign about it. Stickers, ads, endorsement.
2. Encourage leash use in all advertising and magazine/blog pictures
3. Petition Coast Guard to change regulation to either wear a leash or wear a PFD (you see PFDs tied on leashless boards because current regulation WORKS)
3. Safety video about leash use, PFD use, and how to plan for a safe experience.

That's it. That's a solid start. Save the rest for later unless you see something vital missing. Emphasize everything and you emphasize nothing. Most importantly: Leashes Save Lives.  Get behind it, make it happen.

This is exactly it.   Is there room for one more though?

4.  Be a leader in the sport and use a leash yourself.  Everyday in all conditions. 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Easy Rider on August 26, 2015, 09:45:14 AM
Fantastic news from Svein at Starboard late last night.

Effective immediately - all boards will come with a "Leashes Save Lives" sticker at the leash plug. (they had 3 design options drawn up in an hour - but have decided to go with my design - - which was chosen by Dave Kalama and Jaimie Mitchell out of the 5 I did).

All Photo shoots will require leash use, and all Team Riders are being instructed to use a leash at all times! 




So lets get a list going of board manufactures that are "on board".
1) Starboard



(http://www.theeasyrider.com/palladium/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/LeashesSaveLives.jpg)


Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: addapost on August 26, 2015, 10:06:39 AM
It also needs to be mandatory for Rentals, part of the rental process should include signing the rental agreement/waiver form that states that leashes must be worn while on the board, no exceptions !! SUP instruction should also make the leash an integral part of their lesson.

Yes to both at my shop. Every student I've taught has gotten the "fear of god" speech from me about leash use. I have them attach and remove several styles in the first 15 minutes of every beginner class.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Green Water Sports on August 26, 2015, 11:17:42 AM
I've sent this post up the food chain if they haven't already seen it. Sent to Red Paddle Co, Naish and JP.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Badger on August 26, 2015, 11:59:43 AM
So, did we wander far enough, fast enough? 

1. Leashes save lives -- make a campaign about it. Stickers, ads, endorsement.
2. Encourage leash use in all advertising and magazine/blog pictures
3. Petition Coast Guard to change regulation to either wear a leash or wear a PFD (you see PFDs tied on leashless boards because current regulation WORKS)
3. Safety video about leash use, PFD use, and how to plan for a safe experience.

That's it. That's a solid start. Save the rest for later unless you see something vital missing. Emphasize everything and you emphasize nothing. Most importantly: Leashes Save Lives.  Get behind it, make it happen.

I don't like where this is going.

Getting the Coast Guard involved might just make our lives worse. We should be fighting their rules not adding more.

Magazines should be able to use any pictures they want without being hassled by the self appointed safety police. Nobody is going to be influenced by seeing a picture of someone without a leash. A better way to do it would be to publish ads and articles on leash use.



Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2015, 12:49:10 PM
Couple of questions Badger.

1. Do you wear a leash?
2. If the rule was changed to Leash OR PFD would that have any impact on what you do?

The petition to the coast guard is disposable if it defocuses the effort, but I don't think it does. I believe newbs and renters and even some experienced people skip the leash and tie a PFD to their board because that meets the current regulation. That's dangerous and stupid. Having the option to wear either a leash or PFD and eliminating the option of tying a PFD to the board to meet regulation requirements would make the sport safer.

The coast guard already is involved--but it's in a negative way--as anyone who has been cited for not having a PFD while they were leashed to their board will agree.  How would you fight the current regulation? Suggest that there be no PFD requirement? I don't know how that would work, and it certainly wouldn't contribute to safety. We can't show that our gear stays stationary when we fall, which was one basis for windsurfing's exemption from PFD requirements, even though they are clearly MORE of a vessel than a SUP is. We can show that our gear stays stationary if it's leashed.  The argument seems obvious, but there needs to be an organized approach to making it.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: supthecreek on August 26, 2015, 01:42:11 PM
Leashes are mandatory. Period.

My first year on flat-water.... I never considered a leash, so I understand how they are easily over looked.... but as I ventured out in more adverse conditions, I began wearing one.
Now... I wouldn't think of paddling without a leash.... regardless of conditions.

I get a lot of people on a paddle board for their first time.... family.. friends....I tell them all.... wear a leash! Always.

Then I tell them about DJ's video... and how insanely fast a board will get away from you in a gust of wind.

I am working on a "Teaching" post.
It evolved from my 1st response to this thread.... but it went way off topic.... so I'll make a new thread.





Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: raf on August 26, 2015, 01:58:25 PM
I would support a mandatory leash law, especially if it was coupled with an option to use a pfd or not. 

The current laws are not created with SUPs in mind, but rather focused at kayaks and canoes.  As soon as you recognize SUPs as a unique watercraft, and mandate a leash, you have a good argument to make pfds optional.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: kjulks on August 26, 2015, 01:59:48 PM
Nobody is going to be influenced by seeing a picture of someone without a leash.
Sure they are. Or, if the positive form of that statement isn't true, the negative surely is. People WILL be influenced by seeing a majority of pictures WITH leashes.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Tom on August 26, 2015, 02:11:24 PM
Both skateboarding and snowboarding made wearing a helmet cool, or at least not 'not cool'. I know that has save me from a couple of snowboarding concussions. I'm more for the selling of need for a leash vs legislation, and I think those of us that are committed to SUPing can make a positive difference that could save lives.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Easy Rider on August 26, 2015, 02:19:18 PM

I don't like where this is going.
Getting the Coast Guard involved might just make our lives worse. We should be fighting their rules not adding more.
Magazines should be able to use any pictures they want without being hassled by the self appointed safety police. Nobody is going to be influenced by seeing a picture of someone without a leash. A better way to do it would be to publish ads and articles on leash use.


It's unfortunate you feel this way. 
At no time have I requested any "legislation" mandating leashes.  It is in the letter - Education and Encouragement.  This will have a much more positive outcome than any legislation ever will.

As for the magazines being able to . . . .   
Well both the bicycle and wakeboard industry have gone through similar "issues" with helmet use - and all of their respective industries banded together and now any image used is of a helmeted rider. 
Snowboarding and Skiing are going through similar issues right now. 

Ultimately it is up to you if you want to wear a leash or not - my only desire is that you remain safe.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: lucabrasi on August 26, 2015, 02:25:15 PM
Getting the Coast Guard involved might just make our lives worse. We should be fighting their rules not adding more.
In the end, this is fighting their rules. This is making a common sense approach which the current rule is not. Look at that gopro shot of that kid at Tahoe. All happy. "look at me". No leash, pfd strapped to the board. He just rented it a few minutes before. Probably had never been on one before. They found the board that night and he was long gone. No one knew where for a few days. That ending was ok but......others weren't.

There are so many more people trying this than kayaks or other things before because of it's absurd and beautiful ease and simplicity. Not trapped in it like a kayak, no sail so not "extreme", etc. If there is a time, now (soon) is probably a good time to petition the Coast Guard. As much as the sport has exploded in the last 2-3 years there probably is some mulling already going on somewhere within all the layers of it. They are not all complete idiots, tho I am sure sure many of the decision maker are and the process is most likely idiotic but I am sure some have seen or have had it pointed out the ridiculous rule in effect for these kind of "watercraft". Leash OR pfd would be good and in the end, I think just common sense. Leave the surf zone alone.
I wonder tho, how would the argument go with inflatables and single chambers? Would they let that go that way or would that be pfd wear only? Would they differentiate between the two? Is there a reason to? Should that be a different segment of a petition?
Don't want to make it complicated either or let other things muck it up. Not talking about a stroke or heart attack out on the water and how a pfd might be better......talking about the first line of defense to prevent drowning by having a safety device right there.

I am curious. What are the rules in other places? Australia? Europe? England? (oh wait, is that Europe?) Hong Kong? Canada? PFD? Onboard? Worn? Leash?
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: lucabrasi on August 26, 2015, 02:37:07 PM
Both skateboarding and snowboarding made wearing a helmet cool, or at least not 'not cool'. I know that has save me from a couple of snowboarding concussions. I'm more for the selling of need for a leash vs legislation, and I think those of us that are committed to SUPing can make a positive difference that could save lives.
I am so in the minority on the mountain without a helmet. Pretty much everyone under 30 wears one, board or skis. 30-40 probably 70-80 percent. 40-50 a bit less and over 50 still more than half at least where I go and notice. Even the funky little home town hills tho the spread on those hills over the age of 30 isn't quite there but it is on the under 30 crowd. All of those kids learned with helmets on. What I see is that pretty much 100 percent of kids for the last 25 years or so have worn helmets when learning and just always have since. If I still snowboarded I think I would be but I haven't strapped a board on in ten years and am ok with that. Skis are better......not that I am any safer tho.  ;)
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Badger on August 26, 2015, 02:45:27 PM
I would support a mandatory leash law, especially if it was coupled with an option to use a pfd or not. 

The current laws are not created with SUPs in mind, but rather focused at kayaks and canoes.  As soon as you recognize SUPs as a unique watercraft, and mandate a leash, you have a good argument to make pfds optional.

I like the idea of an even trade of rules. If we wear a leash, we no longer need to carry a PFD. That would be perfect. I doubt the CG would go for it though.

I always wear my leash. It's just so easy to do, why wouldn't I. It doesn't bother me a bit to wear it.

On downwinders I always "wear" either my belt PFD or my impact vest. Either of those will allow me to swim for hours.

On calm flatwater a PFD is useless. Why? Because I'm always wearing my leash.

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: coldsup on August 26, 2015, 02:55:27 PM
badger--this has been argued about in the past, but i use two pieces of string, on slightly longer than the other. the tensioned string fails, the other has been relaxing, awaiting its moment of glory! i wrap the two with a bit of 3m electrical tape to keep from catching a toe or finger in there.

Never thought of this .....good idea.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Badger on August 26, 2015, 03:07:30 PM
Couple of questions Badger.

1. Do you wear a leash?
2. If the rule was changed to Leash OR PFD would that have any impact on what you do?

The petition to the coast guard is disposable if it defocuses the effort, but I don't think it does. I believe newbs and renters and even some experienced people skip the leash and tie a PFD to their board because that meets the current regulation. That's dangerous and stupid. Having the option to wear either a leash or PFD and eliminating the option of tying a PFD to the board to meet regulation requirements would make the sport safer.

The coast guard already is involved--but it's in a negative way--as anyone who has been cited for not having a PFD while they were leashed to their board will agree.  How would you fight the current regulation? Suggest that there be no PFD requirement? I don't know how that would work, and it certainly wouldn't contribute to safety. We can't show that our gear stays stationary when we fall, which was one basis for windsurfing's exemption from PFD requirements, even though they are clearly MORE of a vessel than a SUP is. We can show that our gear stays stationary if it's leashed.  The argument seems obvious, but there needs to be an organized approach to making it.

I misunderstood what you were saying in your other post. I'm in favor of making the carrying of a PFD optional as long as a leash is worn. That's a great idea.

Of course, I always wear my leash.

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: kjulks on August 26, 2015, 03:08:34 PM
I know we're just replaying the same argument over again here, but the use has to take conditions into account.

You don't want a vest on in surf. You don't want a leash on in the river, or if you must, it MUST be quick release.

Regs are aimed at the lowest common denominator of user, and paint with a broad brush. Education and awareness, with help from "the industry", go much further in taking the necessary, nuanced approach at actually keeping people safe.

Think of kayaking. You've got everything from Aunt Sally taking out the sit-on-top kayak on Backyard Lake to Demshitz-wannabes charging towering waterfalls. To do the latter, you'd want a helmet, drysuit or beefed up clothing, a skirt, a specific type of PFD (not your orange one-strap), and all kinds of other gear.

Regs do not differentiate based on use. That's up to the industry and its role models.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Badger on August 26, 2015, 05:24:20 PM
badger--this has been argued about in the past, but i use two pieces of string, on slightly longer than the other. the tensioned string fails, the other has been relaxing, awaiting its moment of glory!


I've actually tried to do that but JL leash plugs are not big enough to allow two strings.




Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2015, 05:30:54 PM
I know we're just replaying the same argument over again here, but the use has to take conditions into account.

You don't want a vest on in surf. You don't want a leash on in the river, or if you must, it MUST be quick release.

Regs are aimed at the lowest common denominator of user, and paint with a broad brush. Education and awareness, with help from "the industry", go much further in taking the necessary, nuanced approach at actually keeping people safe.

Think of kayaking. You've got everything from Aunt Sally taking out the sit-on-top kayak on Backyard Lake to Demshitz-wannabes charging towering waterfalls. To do the latter, you'd want a helmet, drysuit or beefed up clothing, a skirt, a specific type of PFD (not your orange one-strap), and all kinds of other gear.

Regs do not differentiate based on use. That's up to the industry and its role models.

A rational reg helps, and your point is exactly why I'd suggest PFD or leash. Up to you to know which one is appropriate, and the industry, role models, and places like this can make it clear which to wear and when. At least the regulation wouldn't be working against safe practices.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: ninja tuna on August 26, 2015, 06:27:08 PM
If a leash is going to be regulated by statute, then there will have to be certifications on them that they can with stand a certain amount of tensile strength.  No common surf leash will be able to be used because of the newer regulations and most likely liability if and when a leash fails.  Are leashes going to have expiration dates on them. Because after so long being left in the sun, the car, or whatever will fall apart with  very little force.  It lets you see how well they are made  and the reason I will never buy or recommend FCS leash products. But again another way for them to fail.

There are enough stories on here about that.  I have had 3 leashes break myself from surfing.

Now also along those lines. What about the method the leash attaches to the board.  I am not talking about the line(s) you use to attach it, but the attachment point itself.  I would think those would need to verified and certified to some standard because that is a point that could fail too. I have had a post on my leash plug pull out in what I would say is small surf.


I have to work with fall protection and harnesses sometimes.  The harnesses have to be inspected and fit correctly with no tears, rips, burns, or other defects. I also have to make sure that I attach it to a point that can support at least 5000lbs. So this is where I am coming from in terms of an analogy. These are the rules I and everyone else in my industry is supposed to follow.  Not  everyone does though.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: magentawave on August 26, 2015, 09:02:48 PM
On the other hand, starting something thoughtful now in the free market could preempt the action of idiotic politicians wanting to capitalize on a tragedy. You know, laws forcing us to wear helmets, PFD's, life preservers, register our boards as if they were boats, etc., etc.

I'd suggest holding off on connecting this to the recent tragedy until someone talks to the family. If they get bent out of shape about this it would backfire in media--it could seem like capitalizing on a tragic circumstance. So perhaps start planning and organizing, but hold off on any general announcement until the T's are crossed.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Blue crab on August 26, 2015, 09:56:14 PM
Ninja Tuna, I think you are dead on about the need for tensile strength regulations and I would be all for this, particularly for downwind leashes.  I am meticulous in caring for my leashes and only buy the thickest Dakine leashes on the market. Nevertheless, a runaway board is still by far my biggest safety concern . It seems well within the capabilities of the industry to design a highly reliable, strong leash akin to a climbing harness that is nearly completely reliable.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: TallDude on August 26, 2015, 10:16:06 PM
My bigger wave leash is the thickest Dakine I've ever seen. If fact, I haven't been able to find a replacement one as thick. I wonder if they discontinued it? My leash plug is epoxied right into my wood stringer. Even with the rail guard, my leash has crushed, cracked and pulled through my tail more than once. It's never let go though, and I've been dragged a long way for that reason. Now I use a leash all the time when distance paddling. I usually paddle by myself a couple of miles off shore. I should start carrying a phone, but I like my solitude.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: magentawave on August 26, 2015, 10:31:12 PM
And when you say "the need for tensile strength regulations" - does that mean you want the government involved in this sport?

Ninja Tuna, I think you are dead on about the need for tensile strength regulations and I would be all for this, particularly for downwind leashes.  I am meticulous in caring for my leashes and only buy the thickest Dakine leashes on the market. Nevertheless, a runaway board is still by far my biggest safety concern . It seems well within the capabilities of the industry to design a highly reliable, strong leash akin to a climbing harness that is nearly completely reliable.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 27, 2015, 12:17:47 AM
No need for government, they'd just f$#k it up anyway. Mountaineering solved this kind of thing aeons ago. And really, existing leashes work very well most of the time. What would be most effective is the simple steps already suggested. A campaign to underline the importance of a leash, with stickers on new boards. Some outreach to rental companies to get them to take more care about leashes and appropriate PFDs. Fixing the dipshit current regs. Getting industry to pay attention and highlight leashes. We're not walking new ground here. Nearly every action sport goes through some process like this to increase safety.

That takes care of the general level. As for the people doing stuff at the sharper end, you pretty much need to be responsible for having gear that works for the level you're playing. True for any risky sport. We're not skydiving, the needs are pretty simple. And even if we were, there's no government regulations for sport parachuting equipment, but lots of industry certification.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 27, 2015, 05:51:16 AM
The most dangerous SUP issue that I see in the Gorge area is the number of beginners paddling from the rental area at the Event Site up the Hood and up the White Salmon with leashes.  Last time we paddled into the White Salmon it was hot and there were a dozen beginners way up there with long leashes hooped out behind them. 

Please check out this old thread for perspective.

http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=15925.0
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 27, 2015, 06:26:03 AM
I was thinking about what you said, Bill. I don't mind the idea of having a regulation that every SUPer must wear a PFD and leash with exceptions for certain activities (surfing, which already exists, or whitewater, or whatever else needs amending). I understand I may be in the minority here, but maybe an industry safety certification, like you said, is the best approach. Establish some basic rules and certify businesses that pledge to do that. I don't know how that would be done, but it makes sense. Maybe races too should certify.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: kjulks on August 27, 2015, 06:27:50 AM
Please check out this old thread for perspective.
"when her board and line became tangled in a submerged tree, pulling her under"

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Now the discussion turns from "PFD or leash" to "well if it's gonna be a leash, it should probably be a coil on rivers where it could snag, or it should be a quick release, in which case you'd probably want an inflatable PFD too in case you had to release, and if it's gonna be a PFD, it can't be a vest in surf, but it should be a leash in surf, but for whitewater river stomping it should be a vest but not a belt inflatable..."

I'm all about this, but regs and silver bullet one-liners aren't gonna keep people safe. The onus is on the shop, rental outfit, friend lending you the board, friends taking you out to the spot, whatever the case may be. It's up to those who have the knowledge to teach and keep those who don't safe. People always get in a tizzy when newbies make newbie mistakes. I don't get that. Blame whoever's facilitating their dumbassery. They don't have enough information to be making rational decisions - they're new.

Common sense goes a long way, but I wouldn't blame you for a second if you heard "Leashes save lives", trailed a big loop on a river, got caught and as you're submerged thought, "Huh, so you want to make sure the leash doesn't snag anything... Got it."
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 27, 2015, 07:03:30 AM
I just sent this letter to one of the local rental outfits in my area:

Dear Kayak Hudson:

As an experienced paddleboarder on the Hudson River, I have happily encountered your organization many times. Most notably, it pleases me to no end to see how popular the paddleboard rentals are, especially at your Croton River spot. I’m glad this sport is finally gaining traction around here.

The thing that concerns me about your paddleboard rentals is your safety policy. As you may have heard, experienced standup paddler Andres Pombo recently drowned in the Columbia River during a downwinding event because he got separated from his board. This tragedy could have been prevented if he had been wearing a PFD and leash. I noticed that you do not require leash use for your rentals, and that concerns me. While a PFD is a vital part of general water safety, so is a leash for a standup paddleboard. You should have everyone who rents a board from you wear both.

This is especially true because I sometimes see your groups venture out of the Croton River onto the Hudson itself. While the river is often placid and serene, it can become hazardous very quickly. Winds pop up out of nowhere. Current and tides make the water unpredictable. During a fall, a leash makes retrieving a board far easier. I myself have gotten into trouble in rough waters and was grateful for being leashed to my board.

I urge you to please make both PFD and leash use mandatory for each rental. My suggestion is to start this with your 2016 season if not sooner. As an experienced paddle boarder (I recently completed the grueling Cape Cod Bay Challenge) I would never venture onto the Hudson without both, and neither should your clients. If you would like some help with safety rules and paddleboard instruction, I have been PaddleFit and ACA certified. I am also a professional teacher, so I know how to present well to a group. I would be happy to help you with this and any other type of paddleboard instruction.

I’m going to close with a letter by Dave Kalama, one of the two founders of standup paddle boarding, about leash use. I hope you agree with his wisdom.

Sincerely,

Ian Berger


Dave Kalama

When we first started tow surfing Peahi in 92′ through to 2000, big wave surfers didn’t wear floatation, so neither did we. My friend Paul Miller always wore one, and we used to think it was kind of kooky, then Laird started wearing one around the end of 99′. I thought he was getting soft, then I had my near drowning experience new year’s day 2000.

From that moment on I never tow surfed without one again. Looking back at it with perspective now, it’s clear to me that everything we did was guided by ego, because there is absolutely no good reason that you would ever ride waves like that without flotation, it’s just stupid.

Now a days, guys are pushing the paddle in limits way beyond what they’ve ever been, because they’re using floatation. It literally is saving lives.

Now we’re at a similar point in stand up. There is absolutely no objective reason that we should ever go without a leash, and this is coming from a guy who saved a person’s life because their leash got stuck on a coral head and they were getting drug under water (literally one of the scariest moments I’ve ever had in the water).

Even with that being said, I still absolutely believe that leashes save a 100 times more lives than they would ever take.

It’s absolutely imperative that we as an industry, make the use of leashes standard practice, just like all the big wave surfers of today, that wouldn’t ever let one of their cohorts out into the lineup without their flotation.

We must do the same as individuals, friends, leaders and as an industry. I regret that all this momentum came at the cost of one of our own, but we all do a disservice to Andres Pombo and his family if we do not act.

http://distressedmullet.com/2015/08/26/dave-kalama-discusses-stand-up-paddle-board-safety-issue/
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 27, 2015, 07:10:38 AM
...and not to poo poo the simple answer but there have been 4 SUP fatalities in Oregon and 2 were caused by leashes:

http://www.columbian.com/news/2015/jun/20/man-dies-in-willamette-river-in-paddleboarding-acc/
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 27, 2015, 07:18:23 AM
Yes, the answer isn't simple, but this is a better one than no leashes at all, especially for beginners.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 27, 2015, 07:22:59 AM
Yup, I know, entanglement is certainly possible. Happened to me at Lanes, just pure luck that I didn't drown. Never made me think it wasn't important to have one on. Wearing a PFD puts you at a nice height for a powerboat to run over your head. It happens. I don't know the real statistics. It's just a guess that Kalama is right, but all my experience tells me it's a good guess.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 27, 2015, 07:25:58 AM
You don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 27, 2015, 07:52:26 AM
You don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

You don't want phrase that pays Americana to become the enemy of reality and judgment.

Of our 4 SUP deaths in Oregon 2 were directly caused by leashes, one was a heart attack (wearing a pfd).
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 27, 2015, 08:08:01 AM
I don't understand what you mean by that phrase.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 27, 2015, 08:13:11 AM
I don't understand what you mean by that phrase.

Easily popularized phrases that have a snappy ring but lack substance.

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 27, 2015, 08:14:32 AM
I think it makes sense here. If something makes things 95% or 99% better, then do the exceptions outweigh the benefits?
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 27, 2015, 08:29:27 AM
I think it makes sense here. If something makes things 95% or 99% better, then do the exceptions outweigh the benefits?

Frankly, the slogan should be, leashes likely save lives in some situations and have taken them in others.

This is actually not related to the topic at hand (Andres' death).  He was an instructor and an experienced paddler.  He understood leashes, PFD's and risk.  A decal would have had no impact on that.  He made choice. 

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: standuped on August 27, 2015, 08:34:22 AM
I know the man to fix this problem. The man who comes prepared.  Mentally and Physically.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: southwesterly on August 27, 2015, 08:36:41 AM
I know the man to fix this problem. The man who comes prepared.  Mentally and Physically.

Kenny Powers!
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Badger on August 27, 2015, 08:37:27 AM
Right now I am very thankful that at least we are not required by law to wear a PFD. Please lets not push this so far that it might encourage the CG to require the wearing of PFDs on paddleboards. We need to prevent that at all costs.

Wearing a leash, yes.  Wearing a PFD, optional.

Ultimately, PFDs should only be required on board if you are not wearing a leash.





Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: feet on August 27, 2015, 08:47:12 AM
Uh, the USCG has already done that...

The Coast Guard determined that SUPs were “vessels” when operating “beyond the narrow confines of
a surfing, swimming or bathing area.” A vessel, according to 1 USC 3 “includes ever description of
watercraft or other artificial contrivance used, or capable of being used, as a means of transportation on
water.”
OK, but what does that mean to a boarding officer?
It means that if you see a SUP operating:
A. In the surf or swimming/bathing area, leave it alone.
B. On other waters, treat it as a kayak or other paddlecraft.
What boating safety regulations apply to a SUP?
Like any paddlecraft, a SUP operating outside a surfing or swimming area is subject to the NAVRLES,
carriage requirements for PFDs, VDS, sound producing device, navigation lights, and accident
reporting.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Badger on August 27, 2015, 08:50:54 AM
Mr feet,

Carriage of PFDs is mandatory yes, but we are not required to wear them.

You left out that you are only required to carry a PFD if you are using a paddle, oar or engine as a means of propulsion. PFDs are not required on board if you are paddling the board with your hands.

SUPs are not required to carry a VDS.

All that's required for nav lights is a working flashlight which only needs to be turned on when warning an approaching boat.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: kjulks on August 27, 2015, 09:12:05 AM
"I still absolutely believe that leashes save a 100 times more lives than they would ever take."
Here's where things start to get concerning for me for two reasons:

First, this is a pure utility, benefits over cost argument. If this becomes the industry-standard silver bullet, with the intended sphere of influence on beginners, that 100th accident that results in a snag death is a direct result of the leash. Who speaks for them? 99 saved, awesome, never gonna hear me wish death upon someone. 1 dead as the cost of doing business? Not ok.

Second, that might be true where Dave paddles, but the plural of anecdote is not data. We can't take the issue of safety and apply a one-size-fits-all mentality.

The onus is on the facilitator. The message cannot be "leashes", it must be nuanced and address all conditions and factors if it is to be effective. As far as forgoing the good in pursuit of the perfect, I'd suggest we don't settle for 99% effective when it's just so easy to teach the lessons that would account for the remaining 1%. If you're gonna do something, do it right.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: feet on August 27, 2015, 09:18:07 AM
So are you one of those guys that straps his PFD to the deck?

It's hard to get through all of the pissing and moaning here about leashes/pfds/government regulations, complaints that make many of you seem grumpy and selfish.

The industry has done a great job selling the sport, but not so great in education users about safety.

Many of you fail to see the value in redundant safety practices, ie downwinders with a type of leash AND at least an inflatable belt pfd. There are a whole bunch of variables that can impact ones ability to self rescue let alone swim; perhaps the biggest being fatigue and weather conditions. 

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Badger on August 27, 2015, 09:37:45 AM
So are you one of those guys that straps his PFD to the deck?

It's hard to get through all of the pissing and moaning here about leashes/pfds/government regulations, complaints that make many of you seem grumpy and selfish.

The industry has done a great job selling the sport, but not so great in education users about safety.

Many of you fail to see the value in redundant safety practices, ie downwinders with a type of leash AND at least an inflatable belt pfd. There are a whole bunch of variables that can impact ones ability to self rescue let alone swim; perhaps the biggest being fatigue and weather conditions.

The only time I wear my belt PFD is on downwinders or any situation where my board could get away from me if for some reason my leash broke. All other times it stays on deck as a useless compliance.

Do you wear a helmet and eye protection when you drive? That would save tons of lives and prevent countless injuries.

Does your car have a roll cage? If you drive a convertible and get rolled over, you are very likely not going to survive it.

There is absolutely no reason to wear a PFD on calm protected water as long as you are wearing a leash.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Chan on August 27, 2015, 10:06:18 AM
For SUP schools, rentals, and shops leashes and PFDs make a lot of sense. Leashes and a PFD for SUP Yoga with your pup on Lake Serene a lot less so. 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 27, 2015, 11:05:11 AM
It's hard to get through all of the pissing and moaning here about leashes/pfds/government regulations, complaints that make many of you seem grumpy and selfish.
?
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: thorn on August 27, 2015, 11:43:53 AM
gah. so confusing. I will mostly be on a river - a small, slow river - no rapids in the places I will be most, only one section with class 1 or 2 rapids anywhere along the 48 mile stretch. leash or no leash? quick release leash? leash plus knife?
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 27, 2015, 11:45:47 AM
For SUP schools, rentals, and shops leashes and PFDs make a lot of sense. Leashes and a PFD for SUP Yoga with your pup on Lake Serene a lot less so.
Chan--there's a brilliant safety point to what you said that may not be obvious to everyone.

As you posted a while ago, there's a lot more to safety than pfds and leashes.  Swimming ability, safety plans, thinking through what you'll do if your gear fails...

I agree with people who say it's important to have some redundancy in safety, so you're not doomed if you're unlucky enough to have even 3 or 4 safety strategies all fail at once.  But there really is a point where the redundancy gets ridiculous.  A woman with swimming ability in a SUP yoga group, but no pfd or leash, is not ignoring safety.  She's already using four safety strategies that I'd say are all as or even more effective than pfds or leashes.  She can swim, she's in calm water, she's near shore and onshore help, and she's in a group.  I'd say she's as least or more safe than most solo paddlers, even if the solo paddler is a swimmer in good conditions, with a pfd and leash. 

So when someone questions the need (and especially legal requirements) for pfds and/or leashes in all situations, it doesn't mean they're anti-safety.  They just recognize that very strong safety levels can be achieved without both, and even without either. 

By the way for questioners, I wear a leash and inflatable pfd almost always, and think the "Leashes Save Lives" campaign is great.  Unless it's handled badly, I don't see problems arising with people using leashes when they shouldn't, or the campaign causing a new slew of regulations.  I think the people involved in carrying it out are well aware of the nuances.

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 27, 2015, 12:04:26 PM
gah. so confusing. I will mostly be on a river - a small, slow river - no rapids in the places I will be most, only one section with class 1 or 2 rapids anywhere along the 48 mile stretch. leash or no leash? quick release leash? leash plus knife?

I'd use a PFD with a belt leash. If the current is fast enough to have rapids at all there's risk of entanglement, and equal risk that your board might head off without you. Small rivers tend to have a lot of crap on the bottom, like sunken logs with lots of branches, root balls, old tractors.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: stoneaxe on August 27, 2015, 12:08:14 PM
I think we will soon be screwed. Bureacrats like black and white....no PFD=ticket is easy for them to remember. I hope it's not soon....no PFD being worn=ticket. They don't like nuances and to them a leash is a nuance.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: kjulks on August 27, 2015, 12:12:10 PM
gah. so confusing. I will mostly be on a river - a small, slow river - no rapids in the places I will be most, only one section with class 1 or 2 rapids anywhere along the 48 mile stretch. leash or no leash? quick release leash? leash plus knife?
The main thing with rivers isn't rapids, it's the current in general. If you were to snag on anything, you're likely to fall off, and one of two things happens: 1) Your board wants to be buoyant and keep moving downriver, and whatever your leash is snagged on pulls your ankle down towards it. This can pull your head under and hold you there. 2) Your board becomes the stationary object of the snag, and you move downriver from it, but you're still attached, and the water pushes you away from your ankle, horizontal and most likely under water.

You want to be able to detach your leash in either scenario, but then you've just detached yourself from the giant PFD that is your board. This is why I'd say use a PFD on rivers. Leashes are great, they'll keep you with your board, but they can be a hazard. If you're going to use one, don't leave a big loop behind you, and be able to get out of it.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: thorn on August 27, 2015, 12:13:37 PM
Small rivers tend to have a lot of crap on the bottom, like sunken logs with lots of branches, root balls, old tractors.

lol! well, hey, at least one worry I can cross off my list. way too shallow for a tractor ;D
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Bean on August 27, 2015, 03:49:21 PM
If you're going to use one, don't leave a big loop behind you

Just keep in mind, you can't avoid having a big loop behind you when you take a spill...
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 27, 2015, 05:20:13 PM
This is leftover from this morning--apparently I hit post and it didn't go. No idea what I was responding to, but what the heck:

Unfortunately that would never happen. For the same kind of reason that the Coast Guard requires boats to have PFDs. You can take a whole bunch of safe boating classes before you set foot in your new boat--at least one tenth of one percent of people do that. Or you can require people to have PFDs in the boat and have them already on any minors. Not a perfect regulation, but an understandable compromise.

I confess I'm kind of shocked that we haven't lost droves of people the way most people rent a SUP. Wobbling off to the middle of the Columbia, half a mile from shore, no leash, PFD tied to the deck, paddle backwards, all alone. How are these people surviving their first fall?

And yes, I get kjulks argument. Profoundly true. The answer is that where there's risk of entanglement you need to wear the PFD instead of the leash. But who tells everyone that? How do you educate people about something that's a casual choice on a hot summer day? We can't really teach people how to drive a car safely. "Seat belts save lives unless they jam and you burn to death". Not a great safety slogan. Airbags required even though they snap the neck of anyone a little too small or sitting a little too close.

Far more common dangers. Worse yet is that airbags, and seatbelts, and antilock brakes encourage people to take greater risks and endanger other people more than the selfish bastard looking down at his cellphone while driving.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Easy Rider on August 28, 2015, 09:32:14 AM
^^^ Agreed Bill. 

I think what a lot of people are losing track of here - is that the idea of promoting leash use is not for "us experienced paddlers". 
It is for the absolute beginner / the newbie / the first timer / the rental person / the Costco board purchaser / the on line "click and buy" beginner / what ever you want to call them - they are the one that truly needs the message of Leashes Save Lives! 

Grab any copy of a SUP magazine - flip through it and count the number of flat water photos where the paddlers are not wearing leashes (better yet - count those that ARE wearing leashes - it will be way easier to count).  I did it the other day to one of the 3 main North American SUP Mags - and the number of people on flat water (I didn't bother with surfing - because they all get the leash "thing") - and it was 5 with leashes and 44 with out.  No wonder the "general public" feel that there is no need to wear a leash. 

Also - it won't be a tragic event like what happened at the Gorge (high profile / experienced paddler / in "extreme conditions") that changes actual governmental legislation - it will be the son / daughter / wife / etc. of some elected official who suffers the same fate - on a glassy calm lake. 

So please stop arguing about "rights being taken away" or "sometimes leashes can kill you" - - and lets just get the message across and educate people that Leashes do in fact save lives!

Thank you
Warren Currie
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: robon on August 28, 2015, 10:00:17 AM
Great thread and thanks to Warren for starting this and sending the word out to so many people. Long overdue.

I also agree with kjulks mentioning that "We can't take the issue of safety and apply a one-size-fits-all mentality". So true and education is key here, and there is much more to paddling than simply throwing on a PFD and a leash. Conditions and location dictate what type of gear to use. White water paddlers frequently use a quick release leash and I liked using the quick release set up on whitewater this summer. A standard leash in whitewater is a hazard. A surf type leash that trails behind the board can be a hazard on even a glassy lake or river if it catches on a dead head, or if wind suddenly picks up. Coiled leashes are much safer than a standard surf leash for inland and calm rivers where a straight leash can trail behind 10 feet in the water if not coiled up on the board. Waist PFDs can be very awkward to use if not educated on them properly  , and  might not work at all if said person does not stay calm, or isn't a strong swimmer.

Lots to consider here for first time paddlers, and much of the onus is on those of us that have been doing this for awhile and for business owners in particular. I rented a 14 foot board last summer and wasn't even given the option for a leash. I told the shop employee straight up that it's sketchy practice not to have mandatory leashes with their rentals. I think it will get better over time, but unfortunately it seems to be the mishaps/tragedies that make people wake up and get educated.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 28, 2015, 10:24:20 AM
This from the ACA:

http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.americancanoe.org/resource/resmgr/sei-documents/aca_sup_survey_report_2012.pdf

"Leashes are another crucial piece of equipment in numerous situations, know which style to wear and in what venue, and know when not to wear a leash
o Wear an appropriate leash in the surf zone
o Know when to wear a leash and when not to when paddling in moving or whitewater"

Also of note that at least 2 of the SUP fatalities that occurred the paddler was wearing an inflatable PFD that was never inflated.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Easy Rider on August 28, 2015, 10:29:57 AM
AGAIN - The collective "WE" of the SUP industry are not trying to  "mandate" leash use in white water. 
No - "I just bought my first board at Costco" person is going to go and try white water. 

PLEASE stop arguing about leashes in white water use.   

The percentage of all paddlers that "do" white water is less than 1%  (not saying they are not important to educate as well - just that they WILL have some sort of experience already).

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 28, 2015, 10:33:35 AM
Its a discussion.  The Oregon leash deaths that have occurred were not in whitewater.  They were in relatively slow moving river water and they were beginners.  All of Oregon's 4 deaths have been in rivers.  The majority of SUP deaths have been in rivers.  This should not be ignored.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: robon on August 28, 2015, 10:52:11 AM
I'm certainly not arguing a mandated rule for leashes in whitewater. As mentioned, it's a discussion. In my area, quite a few paddleboarders are trying whitewater now because whitewater is so accessible, but it is dangerous. I tried the quick release system on a PFD a few times now and like it. It seems comfortable and easy to use but that's where it ends. I have no agenda. A few paddlers aren't using a leash in whitewater and just grab their board and paddle when they go down or rely on others to get the board if they lose it and that works alright. This is more about knowing what you are getting into and choosing the appropriate gear for the situation, and experienced paddlers can help as can business owners.

River safety definitely shouldn't be ignored because more things can go wrong on even slow moving river systems.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2015, 10:56:42 AM
Better to argue things out here than when you actually need to get things done. Death by committee happens aas a project moves from theorizing towards the implementation point, where every person added to the mix makes results less likely.

To that end, it's not just whitewater that kills people when leashes get tangled. It's moving water. Drifting lazily down a river moving at 1 mph turns really nasty if you leash snags a rootball. Sounds bizarre but it's really hard to bend enough to release the leash in just a 1mph current. But most people don't even try--they just start flailing, and then quickly transition to the Instinctive Drowning Response, which is counter-productive to survival and very passive: http://www.xgeez.com/2011/06/drowing-doesnt-look-like-drowning/

Leads me to wonder why all flatwater leashes aren't just belt leashes with a big quick release. No real reason for that leg strap in a non-surf application. I generally attach my downwinder leash to my Camelbak--not really quick release, but I like keeping the leash out of the water.  And actually I've come to appreciate waist leashes in big surf--they don't pull you under. I've never used a leash in Whitewater. I always go with folks that are way better at it than me (except Admin and Chan, who fall almost as much as I do) and they catch my board for me usually. Though I have gone through more than a few rapids bobbing like a black rubber duck. I'll try a waist leash next time I get stupid enough to go.

I know that's a digression, but it's worth talking about in THIS group. I'm going to talk to the Dakine folks here in the Gorge about it after I hear from the rest of you.

In the meantime Warren, I'd like to start helping you with your effort. If you'd like I'll set up a "Leashes Save Lives" website. PM me with your thoughts.

I'm also working on a script for a SUP the Gorge safety video. Off-shore, I'll send you the first draft when I'm done. I'm going to ask Rod Parmenter to shoot it for us.  He's one hell of a good videographer.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: kjulks on August 28, 2015, 11:14:12 AM
We can't really teach people how to drive a car safely. "Seat belts save lives unless they jam and you burn to death". Not a great safety slogan. Airbags required even though they snap the neck of anyone a little too small or sitting a little too close.
Yeah, but let's not use improper analogies. We're not talking about malfunctioning equipment. And in the case of "too small or sitting too close", there was a massive public safety effort to educate the populace about car seats, keeping your kid in the back until a certain weight, etc. With some coordination people CAN be taught how to handle variables to maximize safety.

Quote from: Easy Rider
So please stop arguing about "rights being taken away" or "sometimes leashes can kill you" - - and lets just get the message across and educate people that Leashes do in fact save lives!
I'm not arguing to take anything away from your message. I appreciate your efforts and your dedication to safety. What I'm saying is that they absolutely do until they don't. Please don't take personal offense to attempts to help clarify a murky subject.

It seems like this whole conversation was brought about as a result of Andres' death, yet we're all now citing that those types of circumstances aren't going to be the type of situation targeted by this kind of effort. Please keep separation of the two in mind, then. If we're targeting beginners, we must be taking a thoughtful approach to keeping them safe. If the message is "Leashes would have saved Andres' life", then own up to that. It's probably true. But calling for an industry-wide campaign to put forth a blanket statement that isn't patently true and that could actually lead to accidents is a mistake.

I'm sorry if that seems callous, but safety protocols can't be born from an emotional reaction.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Eagle on August 28, 2015, 11:39:35 AM
A pamphlet noting something like this seems to make a lot sense and can be distributed at time of rent or purchase.  Also the current local regulations for ROW and PFD use should be given out so that the consumer is made aware at the counter.

Unfortunately education and regulation are no guarantee that paddlers will comply anyways.  Common sense and knowing your equipment and how to use it is more important than an inflatable PFD that has a canister not checked and defective -> or a leash that will break or not hold because of old weak velco.

Education and knowledge of dangers is very useful to us - ex DJ's photos and videos noting the risks not using a leash in windy situations -> and news reports reflecting the dangers of SUP in any environment.  Knowledge of the pros and cons is key - "appropriate education is crucial".
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2015, 11:51:57 AM
I don't think there's anything improper about the analogy. You cite a massive public safety effort to educate people about using car seats and keeping kids in the back seat. Note the word "massive". Is that what you expect? More to the point is that airbags represent a clear hazard and yet the tradeoff is considered satisfactory. Even discounting the Takata airbags there is good evidence that airbags are a flawed solution when they work properly.  What we are talking about here is the same thing--a safety solution that could have a negative safety effect. The challenge in analyzing the solution is that if it works a million times to save someone's life that will not be reported, whereas if it drowns two people by entanglement it will.

For example, I do at least 150 downwinders a year, and probably fall an average of three times (yeah, I know). So 450 lifesaving events (possibly) and none reported. The few incidents I remember and talk about is when the leash didn't work--broke or slipped off.  What kind of analysis of risk vs. benefit is available from that data? None that bears real statistical scrutiny--two many assumptions. Does that mean I should be doing something different?

Really, neither analogy requires malfunction. People in a panic don't unbuckle their seat belt. They just struggle. Saw that firsthand when I stopped to help in a traffic accident. One of the drivers was struggling in her car--full panic. Couldn't get out, clawing at the window and jerking on the doorhandle with no more rationality than a trapped raccoon. I banged on her window right in front of her face and startled her. When she recoiled, I put my face up close and pointed to the door lock. She unlocked it. I reached across and undid her fully functioning seatbelt and got her out of the car.

Here's something a little more relevant that bears consideration, from the Drowning doesn't Look Like Drowning article:
"Throughout the IDR (Instinctive Drowning Response), drowning people cannot voluntarily control their arm movements. Physiologically, drowning people who are struggling on the surface of the water cannot stop drowning and perform voluntary movements such as waving for help, moving toward a rescuer, or reaching out for a piece of rescue equipment.

From beginning to end of the IDR people’s bodies remain upright in the water, with no evidence of a supporting kick. Unless rescued by a trained lifeguard, these drowning people can only struggle on the surface of the water from 20 to 60 seconds before submersion occurs”.


I've seen this firsthand. pulling people out of the ocean in Manzanita. It explains why PFDs don't get inflated, and why leash entanglement victims don't release their leash.

Yes, education is an important part of this effort, but anyone experienced with a SUP can certainly understand that a lot fewer people will drown if their board is right there, ready for them to crawl back onto. They won't go into that panic. Will there be useful statistics to make that assessment? NO.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Eagle on August 28, 2015, 12:12:58 PM
Yes, education is an important part of this effort, but anyone experienced with a SUP can certainly understand that a lot fewer people will drown if their board is right there, ready for them to crawl back onto. They won't go into that panic.

There is no convincing us that leashing up is important as we have noted that many times.  We always wear a leash for our purposes.  It seems the knowledge that at certain times there are risks one should also be aware of that is important.

We have been tangled even on a DW when a board flips a few times.  Luckily we have a QR so that does help.  For the majority -> obviously they should wear a leash.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: kjulks on August 28, 2015, 12:17:42 PM
What we are talking about here is the same thing--a safety solution that could have a negative safety effect. The challenge in analyzing the solution is that if it works a million times to save someone's life that will not be reported, whereas if it drowns two people by entanglement it will. ... Will there be useful statistics to make that assessment? NO.
You're right about that. I thought you were trying to say that a seatbelt jamming and keeping someone stuck in a car that could ignite- a case of malfunctioning equipment - was somehow akin to a misapplication of a safety device. That's where it becomes an inappropriate comparison for me.

But forget the debate team BS, I'm not trying to win arguments. I'm trying to clarify that those potential negative effects could be minimized by taking a more nuanced approach to the message and educational efforts. "Airbags save lives" without the educational piece about sitting too close, being too small is an oversight and not acceptable. Similarly, I'd say "Leashes save lives" without the education piece about moving water, being able to get out of the leash is an oversight and unacceptably simplistic.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2015, 12:31:30 PM
Okay then, we're in violent agreement.

Yeah, the only thing wrong with a belt leash is that I have managed to turn myself into leash macrame a few times. Fortunately I'm more inclined to laugh about it than panic.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 28, 2015, 12:35:35 PM
Some of the board and leash companies have a different type of message attached to their products.  I think a great measure of care is required when you say what a product will and will not do.

From Bic:

Warning on use of leash:
The leash is not a life-safety device and is intended for convenience purposes only. It is not intended to compensate for deficient surfing and swimming ability, ocean knowledge, safety precautions, or general common sense. We assume no liability for any damage or injury to you or others caused by use, misuse, or inability to use this product.
 
WARNING :
To use this product with maximum security please read and follow these simple instructions :
- Never grab or wrap the leash around your hand to recover the surfboard : the force of a wave may cause serious damage to your hand or fingers, even amputation in the worst cases.
- A SUP leash can become stuck on objects under the water, particularly when surfing reef or rock breaks. To reduce the risk of drowning, before going surfing with this leash you must train to use the quick release pull tab on the velcro ankle or knee bracelet.
- SUP leashes are NOT intended for use in rivers with current or whitewater rapids. They should not be used in these conditions unless used in conjunction with a PFD quick release sytem AND the appropriate training by a river professional.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Eagle on August 28, 2015, 12:39:36 PM
Okay then, we're in violent agreement.

Yeah, the only thing wrong with a belt leash is that I have managed to turn myself into leash macrame a few times. Fortunately I'm more inclined to laugh about it than panic.

 ;D
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 28, 2015, 12:41:12 PM
I'm taking my car in Monday for airbag replacement recall work.  Apparently my type of airbags have killed several people by shooting shrapnel when they deploy. 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Area 10 on August 28, 2015, 02:47:34 PM
Pretty much the best leash for ANY SUP activity is a waist-mounted one with a quick release system.

And what is the LEAST used leash system? A waist-mounted QR one.

Go figure. Vanity? Lack of education? Lack of imagination? Fear of the unknown?

Many of the objections that one might raise about leash use disappear if the designs were more appropriate to the situation (river, surf, BOP-type race etc).

So this is largely a design issue rather than one of principle.

And it is an opportunity for manufacturers to start selling us as many different types of leash as they do boards...

Show them this marketing opportunity and then let them do the advertising for you. In no time it will be cool to wear a waist-mounted leash, and a generation will grow up doing so. Job done.

And if you are one of the few here who find it hard to agree with the statement "leashes save lives", would you similarly object to the statement "wearing the correct leash saves lives"?
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: robon on August 28, 2015, 03:06:31 PM
Pretty much the best leash for ANY SUP activity is a waist-mounted one with a quick release system.

And what is the LEAST used leash system? A waist-mounted QR one.

Go figure. Vanity? Lack of education? Lack of imagination? Fear of the unknown?

Many of the objections that one might raise about leash use disappear if the designs were more appropriate to the situation (river, surf, BOP-type race etc).

So this is largely a design issue rather than one of principle.

And it is an opportunity for manufacturers to start selling us as many different types of leash as they do boards...

Show them this marketing opportunity and then let them do the advertising for you. In no time it will be cool to wear a waist-mounted leash, and a generation will grow up doing so. Job done.

And if you are one of the few here who find it hard to agree with the statement "leashes save lives", would you similarly object to the statement "wearing the correct leash saves lives"?

A waist leash quick release is probably the least used because it is the most expensive option for leashes and many people simply don't know about them yet. Many people inland don't even know about calf leashes, let alone quick release waist leashes so give it time. I don't have a waist leash, but want one. Truth is, I don't like anything on my waist or back when paddling, but have done the quick release on my PFD every time I have gone white water paddling. It makes sense to have a waist leash and it will catch on in time.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Weeble on August 28, 2015, 03:12:16 PM
I've tried to read thru this entire thread to make sure I'm not saying something already said.  Of course safety should be a high priority, and yes sometimes what you think should save you, might in some circumstances be what kills you.  I think it comes down to using your head, maybe practicing a few things to make sure you have your plan for if things go bad, etc.  Granted, we can't plan for everything, but there is a reason why police and firemen train and practice.  Anyway, my only additional thought on this huge issue is what each person might want to consider when they head out for a paddle.  You might be a true waterman, super healthy, super experienced, etc and it is your choice about your safety gear.  And, if you die because you didn't use it, or died because you did but you ran into what Pono Bill described in another thread "a perfect storm", it is your choice.  However, what about if you have a spouse, or family?  What about what you could be potentially leaving behind?  For the ones that you care about that are left behind to deal with the aftermath like Andres Pombo's family has had to, how would you feel about that?  They have suffered threw a few false reports that he was found alive, and then had to suffer through waiting for his body to surface.  What if your body weren't found for weeks?  I'm not sure how life insurance works on the payout, but what if your family wasn't in the best of financial shape and now needed the money from your policy, but they have to wait because your body hasn't been found.  Again, I don't know if that could happen, but I'm just bringing it up.  Sometimes, it not just you that is affected by your choices, it's also the ones that you love.  Andres's family needed the help of many to get out there and deal with bringing him back home.  Would you want your loved ones to suffer like that?  Not trying be sound all high and mightly, it's just another thing to maybe think about when you make your choices. 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 28, 2015, 03:19:20 PM
And if you are one of the few here who find it hard to agree with the statement "leashes save lives", would you similarly object to the statement "wearing the correct leash saves lives"?

Bill wrote this above:

Quote
I've seen this firsthand. pulling people out of the ocean in Manzanita. It explains why PFDs don't get inflated, and why leash entanglement victims don't release their leash.

Many never reach for the release on either the vest or the leash.

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 28, 2015, 03:27:10 PM
I've tried to read thru this entire thread to make sure I'm not saying something already said.  Of course safety should be a high priority, and yes sometimes what you think should save you, might in some circumstances be what kills you.  I think it comes down to using your head, maybe practicing a few things to make sure you have your plan for if things go bad, etc.  Granted, we can't plan for everything, but there is a reason why police and firemen train and practice.  Anyway, my only additional thought on this huge issue is what each person might want to consider when they head out for a paddle.  You might be a true waterman, super healthy, super experienced, etc and it is your choice about your safety gear.  And, if you die because you didn't use it, or died because you did but you ran into what Pono Bill described in another thread "a perfect storm", it is your choice.  However, what about if you have a spouse, or family?  What about what you could be potentially leaving behind?  For the ones that you care about that are left behind to deal with the aftermath like Andres Pombo's family has had to, how would you feel about that?  They have suffered threw a few false reports that he was found alive, and then had to suffer through waiting for his body to surface.  What if your body weren't found for weeks?  I'm not sure how life insurance works on the payout, but what if your family wasn't in the best of financial shape and now needed the money from your policy, but they have to wait because your body hasn't been found.  Again, I don't know if that could happen, but I'm just bringing it up.  Sometimes, it not just you that is affected by your choices, it's also the ones that you love.  Andres's family needed the help of many to get out there and deal with bringing him back home.  Would you want your loved ones to suffer like that?  Not trying be sound all high and mightly, it's just another thing to maybe think about when you make your choices.
That's very true a big reason I wear one.  I'm rarely anywhere my board would get away from me if I fell, but my first year paddling someone fell off their board right where I paddle and as far as I know they never found his body. 


In addition to the family, think also of the rescuers--first putting their own lives in danger not knowing you're already dead, then using up resources trying to find your body--not to mention the emotional aspect they also go through, even for a stranger. 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Area 10 on August 28, 2015, 03:44:42 PM
And if you are one of the few here who find it hard to agree with the statement "leashes save lives", would you similarly object to the statement "wearing the correct leash saves lives"?

Bill wrote this above:

Quote
I've seen this firsthand. pulling people out of the ocean in Manzanita. It explains why PFDs don't get inflated, and why leash entanglement victims don't release their leash.

Many never reach for the release on either the vest or the leash.
That is just a matter of education and training. It is not an argument for everyone not wearing a leash.

I have nearly lost my life twice through leash entanglement. It is very frightening. Both times I could have avoided the situation if I'd have been wearing an appropriate leash.

But my life has probably been saved countless times by a leash, most notably when downwinding. It may also have saved the lives of others who might otherwise have come into contact with my board.

Nothing is foolproof. But on balance, if you are wearing the right equipment and know how to use it, for most paddlers the benefits far outweigh the risks.

This is the same rationale as for seat belts etc (and for PFDs).

But surely for SUP yoga, or where people are paddling in indoor pools, some common sense has to be applied.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 28, 2015, 03:55:17 PM
Quote
That is just a matter of education and training. It is not an argument for everyone not wearing a leash.

Safety is a matter of education and training but that is essentially the opposite of a single line of text.   

Bill was referring to the Instinctive Drowning Response.  I had mentioned that two of the SUP drownings had involved SUPers that were wearing uninflated life vests.  The actuation was right there but they never inflated them.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Area 10 on August 28, 2015, 04:03:24 PM
Quote
That is just a matter of education and training. It is not an argument for everyone not wearing a leash.

Safety is a matter of education and training but that is essentially the opposite of a single line of text.   

Bill was referring to the Instinctive Drowning Response.  I had mentioned that two of the SUP drownings had involved SUPers that were wearing uninflated life vests.  The actuation was right there but they never inflated them.
Yes. But my point is that anyone who can be saved will be more likely to be saved by the correct leash for the situation (than not wearing one).

The fact that some people will drown no matter what help you provide (and sometimes will also drown a person trying to help them) does not alter the veracity of the line of text. The text wasn't "the correct leash will save every person's life". That would be fatuous.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Blue crab on August 28, 2015, 04:09:13 PM
Will there be useful statistics to make that assessment? NO.

There will never be adequate samples size, and there are way too many confounding variables, to make statistical comparisons (with meaningful p-values) amongst various safety options (say waist vs ankle leases). That being said, I think there is a role for precise statistical thinking to assess the situation. I use a serial probability approach every time I go downwinding to plan for specific situations. While admittedly imprecise, it provides a reasonable framework to assess risk for myself and those in my group.

At the heart of the issue are the multiple of two probabilities: the probability of becoming permanently separated from the board and the conditional probability of not being able to make it back to shore in one piece without the board? These probabilities vary enormously for an individual and a set of conditions.  However, when assessing personal risk, I make conservative assumptions. 

First, what is the risk of losing a board? For some context, I did a Viento run with my wife this weekend and it was her first time. We were out there forever and I got to watch dozens of people go by.  To my surprise, nearly everyone fell at one point or another (except for the SIC team riders).  I am nothing special and fall most runs.  I suspect that a reasonably high percentage of my falls would be associated with board separation. For me personally, if I did a run in the gorge without a leash, I bet I'd lose the board 20-80% of the time. Huge uncertainty, but this number is unacceptably high no matter the true value, and highlights to me that the leash is the single most important piece of safety equipment on a downwinder other than the board.  Based on Bill's history of 100s of runs and only a few mishaps, the risk of separation with a high quality leash is <1%. I try to get this number infinitesimally small by using new leashes & 2 tie down strings. I bring an extra leash on most runs as well in case the first one feels gimpy.

Second, can I get to shore? This is where there is a bit more nuance. I honestly have no idea whether I could easily swim half way across the Columbia river in big conditions. I'd like to think it would be no sweat but this is perhaps bravado.  A conservative assumption is that I would make it in from the middle of the river without a pfd 70% of the time.  However, there are easy ways to lower this risk which are more appropriate for certain runs than others.  I always bring a pfd so I have an option of using it if swimming is not working.  I believe in the buddy system: when I am with newer paddlers, I try to stay within a minute of their position to assist if need be. If possible, I stay near shore. The Columbia is a great place to do a first downwinder relative to Puget Sound or Maliko because there are great swells very, very near the Oregon shore. I of course realize that none of these factors ensures total safety and drowning can occur very rapidly. However, I think that the conditional probability of not being able to make it out of the water alive is lowered dramatically with the use of a pfd, buddy system and a route near shore. I would say less than 10% for sure.

The multiple of these probabilities (the prefect storm) is <0.1% which is pretty low (lower than my bike commute to work for sure). I therefore conclude that downwinding can be quite safe with the right preparation, and used this logic to justify taking my kids out this weekend. 

That being said, I also do 9 mile solo runs on Puget Sound in the middle of winter when it is hailing out. These may be on a Tuesday afternoon when no one else is on the water.  I am therefore extremely careful about board separation on these days, and have used 2 leashes (one ankle, one waist) in the past.  I also wear full PFD (not the inflatable kind) and obviously bring a phone. Probably not as safe, but within my acceptable margin of risk.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: kjulks on August 28, 2015, 04:10:42 PM
Yes. But my point is that anyone who can be saved will be more likely to be saved by the correct leash for the situation (than not wearing one).

The fact that some people will drown no matter what help you provide (and sometimes will also drown a person trying to help them) does not alter the veracity of the line of text. The text wasn't "the correct leash will save every person's life". That would be fatuous.
This is the cost/benefit utility argument rearing its ugly head again, and I must vehemently argue against it. The choices are not A) Leashes save lives, or B) <no message>. The message can be anything you want. What I've been trying to articulate, and if I'm not mistaken what Admin has been saying, is that simply stating "Leashes save lives" doesn't address the times when it doesn't, and furthermore could augment the times when leashes take lives. To make this the industry-standard silver bullet would be a mistake.

You cannot say, "Well it's the best option, people are going to drown no matter what. So on balance, 100 times more lives saved by encouraging wearing leashes offsets the 1 time where someone dies from wearing it." That is a positive action taken that will influence some beginner to wear a leash when it is explicitly inappropriate to do so. That cannot be allowed to happen.

The message, whatever it is, must be more than an inadequate alliterative one-liner.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 28, 2015, 04:13:11 PM

Yes. But my point is that anyone who can be saved will be more likely to be saved by the correct leash for the situation (than not wearing one).

The fact that some people will drown no matter what help you provide (and sometimes will also drown a person trying to help them) does not alter the veracity of the line of text. The text wasn't "the correct leash will save every person's life". That would be fatuous.

I appreciate your opinion and I don't doubt your interest in safety but I completely disagree.  The ACA said it perfectly:

"Leashes are another crucial piece of equipment in numerous situations, know which style to wear and in what venue, and know when not to wear a leash".
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Bulky on August 28, 2015, 04:18:33 PM
I've tried to read thru this entire thread to make sure I'm not saying something already said.  Of course safety should be a high priority, and yes sometimes what you think should save you, might in some circumstances be what kills you.  I think it comes down to using your head, maybe practicing a few things to make sure you have your plan for if things go bad, etc.  Granted, we can't plan for everything, but there is a reason why police and firemen train and practice.  Anyway, my only additional thought on this huge issue is what each person might want to consider when they head out for a paddle.  You might be a true waterman, super healthy, super experienced, etc and it is your choice about your safety gear.  And, if you die because you didn't use it, or died because you did but you ran into what Pono Bill described in another thread "a perfect storm", it is your choice.  However, what about if you have a spouse, or family?  What about what you could be potentially leaving behind?  For the ones that you care about that are left behind to deal with the aftermath like Andres Pombo's family has had to, how would you feel about that?  They have suffered threw a few false reports that he was found alive, and then had to suffer through waiting for his body to surface.  What if your body weren't found for weeks?  I'm not sure how life insurance works on the payout, but what if your family wasn't in the best of financial shape and now needed the money from your policy, but they have to wait because your body hasn't been found.  Again, I don't know if that could happen, but I'm just bringing it up.  Sometimes, it not just you that is affected by your choices, it's also the ones that you love.  Andres's family needed the help of many to get out there and deal with bringing him back home.  Would you want your loved ones to suffer like that?  Not trying be sound all high and mightly, it's just another thing to maybe think about when you make your choices.


Well said.  Spot on.  I also don't have much to add but put me down for education, etc.  Bottom line for me is, I enjoy paddling and understand there's risk.  It's not really a matter of obeying the law (I break it everyday as I'm far out of the surf zone without a PFD--and the likelihood of ever seeing any enforcement agency is negligible), but taking my safety seriously (my conditions are nothing like the Gorge, but you won't catch me without a leash).  With a leash, phone and good judgement regarding local conditions (I won't go out if things are shaping up a certain way) I feel like I've adequately prepared for most emergency scenarios I'd encounter.

There's certainly some freak events that might result in tragedy, but you just can't prepare for every one of those.  For me, it's most important to think of my wife and kids with a clear conscience and know that I'm not doing anything inordinately risky or stupid that would impact them.

The vexing thing is that you often can't educate complete ignorance.  Most of us here are experienced enough to know the dangers and prepare accordingly, but I worry about people with rented/borrowed gear who just don't realize some of the risks they're taking.  But then again, in the recent tragedy and in DJs video that still gives me chills, ignorance wasn't the issue--sometimes we just forget, make mistakes or poor calls.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Area 10 on August 28, 2015, 04:47:10 PM
Yes. But my point is that anyone who can be saved will be more likely to be saved by the correct leash for the situation (than not wearing one).

The fact that some people will drown no matter what help you provide (and sometimes will also drown a person trying to help them) does not alter the veracity of the line of text. The text wasn't "the correct leash will save every person's life". That would be fatuous.
This is the cost/benefit utility argument rearing its ugly head again, and I must vehemently argue against it. The choices are not A) Leashes save lives, or B) <no message>. The message can be anything you want. What I've been trying to articulate, and if I'm not mistaken what Admin has been saying, is that simply stating "Leashes save lives" doesn't address the times when it doesn't, and furthermore could augment the times when leashes take lives. To make this the industry-standard silver bullet would be a mistake.

You cannot say, "Well it's the best option, people are going to drown no matter what. So on balance, 100 times more lives saved by encouraging wearing leashes offsets the 1 time where someone dies from wearing it." That is a positive action taken that will influence some beginner to wear a leash when it is explicitly inappropriate to do so. That cannot be allowed to happen.

The message, whatever it is, must be more than an inadequate alliterative one-liner.
I said "wearing the *correct* leash saves lives". Not "wearing leashes saves lives". My phrasing is much more nuanced because it leads to the question "what is the CORRECT leash?". If you don't know that, you might die. Just like I very nearly did, twice. So you don't need to lecture me about the potential risks of leashes.

But if you are going to reject any cost/benefit analysis as a matter of principle, even when there might be good pragmatic reasons for doing so, then it's going to be tough to please you. Perhaps we should just let people make up their own minds, like happened on Hood River. That's the approach we tend to favour in Europe. If you decide to take a risk with your own life then mostly we don't care. Go die if you want to. It is only when that decision puts others at risk that we care. But even if you take this approach then it might still be useful to tell people that leashes might save their lives. You clearly don't think much of the proposed messages. So how do you think that message should be phrased?

But the vociferousness of your voice on this matter makes me wonder if you have had some personal experience that is driving it. What is your own personal experience of leashes?
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Area 10 on August 28, 2015, 04:54:59 PM

Yes. But my point is that anyone who can be saved will be more likely to be saved by the correct leash for the situation (than not wearing one).

The fact that some people will drown no matter what help you provide (and sometimes will also drown a person trying to help them) does not alter the veracity of the line of text. The text wasn't "the correct leash will save every person's life". That would be fatuous.

I appreciate your opinion and I don't doubt your interest in safety but I completely disagree.  The ACA said it perfectly:

"Leashes are another crucial piece of equipment in numerous situations, know which style to wear and in what venue, and know when not to wear a leash".
Other than the very specialised situations (maybe) of whitewater or surfing weirs etc, when is a person safer not wearing a leash? I obviously need educating.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2015, 05:06:53 PM
Not much going on today, so I took the grandkids down to the event center to swim and play with boards. Leashes and PFDs for those gomers all the time--they don't swim well and are constantly trying to drown each other. While I was sitting around, watching the war, I observed people headed out into the Columbia. It looks so harmless. Of the 21 people I watched paddle out into the middle of the river, all had PFDs tied to the nose of their board. Four had leashes.

I resisted the urge to scream at them.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Easy Rider on August 28, 2015, 05:11:44 PM
The biggest "issue" I have with the pfd strapped to the . . . is that it totally creates a false sense of security. 

"Oh the rental place strapped a life jacket to my board, I must be safe then"   

This is what needs to change. 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 28, 2015, 05:30:06 PM
I'd almost say safety would improve if all that changed was a legal ban on strapping pfds to boards.  Not a requirement to wear them, or replace them with leashes,  but simply a ban on bringing them along on your board. The false sense of security would go away, but safety wouldn't be harmed, except for very rare circumstances.   


And of course on the leash subject, it takes no more time and effort to strap a leash to your leg than a pfd to your board.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: kjulks on August 28, 2015, 05:35:39 PM
But if you are going to reject any cost/benefit analysis as a matter of principle, even when there might be good pragmatic reasons for doing so, then it's going to be tough to please you. Perhaps we should just let people make up their own minds, like happened on Hood River. That's the approach we tend to favour in Europe. If you decide to take a risk with your own life then mostly we don't care. Go die if you want to. It is only when that decision puts others at risk that we care.
I don't reject them on principle, only when the principle of utility furthers an argument that would lead to a positive harm. I'm really not trying to be an argumentative dick, I'm just clearly unable to articulate the subtleties of what we're discussing. Let me try again:
The conversation started with the letter, and Dave Kalama put forth the argument that leashes save 100 times more lives than they take. He cited an example of helping someone who became entangled. He acknowledged the risk of entanglement, but stated that the potential benefit outweighs that risk. From that letter, Starboard appears to be spearheading a movement to include a "Leashes save lives" sticker on all of their boards. That has ramifications for the industry. Starboard is widely regarded as one of the leaders, if not the leader. This could mean that several other manufacturers do the same.
So, fast forward to how this plays out: Somebody rents a board, and the rental outfit has boards that have these "Leashes save lives" stickers. The outfit follows this advice, as does the customer. They're on a river, or they take the board to the river. They snag. They die. That is what I mean by a positive action that results in an inappropriate application of safety equipment. That would be directly caused by a positive action taken (the sticker campaign, the inappropriate enforcement of an inadequate generalization), and it would result in a life lost. That is differentiated from a lack of action.
Deaths from lack of action, one could argue, are just as bad. We see Andres, these other poor guys that have drowned recently due to board separation. That's horrible, and I don't want that to happen either.
What I'm trying to say is that these are not the only two options.
The pragmatic approach is the neither "Leashes save lives" nor <silence>.

But even if you take this approach then it might still be useful to tell people that leashes might save their lives.
Yes, but that "might" in the "save their lives" is the important part. Manufacturers jumping on a message that could actually take lives is a horrible mistake. "Leashes save lives" is a very forceful statement. It suggests that leashes are the answer. Beginners, less informed facilitators of the sport, and all sorts will view that as a statement made from a position of authority, and will likely follow it. A small percentage of those adherents could do so to their detriment.

You clearly don't think much of the proposed messages. So how do you think that message should be phrased?
I think the examples cited by Admin from Bic and the ACA are the realistic approach. I understand the desire for an easy solution, but safety is a complex issue. I don't have a good answer, because I think "the message" is more of an industry-backed approach. It's not a blurb, a sentence, a sticker, but rather a mindset. Facilitators and enthusiasts should do everything they can to aid newbies and educate them. Experienced paddlers should take responsibility and call each other out when we aren't being safe for dumb reasons. Whether this means pamphlets like Eagle said, videos like several people have suggested, or some sort of facilitator certification system, I don't know. I don't think there's ever going to be an easy answer to safety. What I'm trying to caution against is the feel-good reaction to a snappy phrase that will do a lot of good, but will also result in harm. That can't be the answer.

But the vociferousness of your voice on this matter makes me wonder if you have had some personal experience that is driving it. What is your own personal experience of leashes?
Fortunately no. I love this sport, and I'd hate to see it misstep because we acted out of grief. That's all.

And, Area 10, I'll say this one more time because I'm really not trying to be a dick: I'm sorry if some of this is stated in a "holier than thou" way. That's not my intention. I'm not trying to lecture anyone. I feel strongly about safety, especially when it's targeted to beginners and could have ramifications for the industry as a whole. When the stakes are high like this - yknow, life and death - I'd rather state the obvious and come off as condescending than leave things unsaid and assumed. So I sincerely apologize if I'm doing any of the above, which were, in summary: being a dick, holier than thou, lecturing, or condescending. Pretty sure I did them all, but it comes from a good place. [See? I can get behind cost-benefit arguments...  ;) ]

EDIT: The last last thing I'm going to add on to this friggin treatise... This snag hazard isn't some outside chance. I live near a bunch of rivers that are used recreationally like lakes by a lot of people. Kayaks, canoes, power boats, you name it. I'm not going on and on about this because it's not a perfect solution. I recognize that nothing will ever be death-proof. I'm saying that if the sport keeps growing (and here it certainly will... we're about 5 years behind coastal trends I'd guess), then telling a load of people to use leashes in inappropriate scenarios will lead to issues that will be statistically significant.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2015, 05:52:11 PM
As any good marketer would tell you, it's extremely hard to get a message across, and every word you add costs you audience and comprehension.

"Leashes Save Lives" is a fine title, and it's true. Yes, you could add a bunch of waffle words, but they don't make the statement more true. All that would be accomplished is to dilute the message. The caveats that BIC came up with--effective writing by the way--can and should be added. As subheads and copy. But clarity shouldn't suffer.

I've heard anecdotal examples of bicycle helmets causing traumatic head and neck injuries, even death. Google it. There's no such thing as a safety product without hazard. In truth, there's no such thing as safety. Doesn't mean bicycle manufacturers shouldn't encourage people to wear helmets.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 28, 2015, 06:09:35 PM
The biggest "issue" I have with the pfd strapped to the . . . is that it totally creates a false sense of security. 

"Oh the rental place strapped a life jacket to my board, I must be safe then"   

This is what needs to change.

Absolutely.  From the SUP death in Lake Tahoe:

"Lyngar said because Campo borrowed the board he missed out on the safety talk from the rental company that would have gone over issues about the water temperature.

A life jacket was secured to the paddleboard with the leash that is supposed to be strapped to a paddler’s ankle."

http://www.laketahoenews.net/2013/08/bay-area-man-drowns-at-sand-harbor/
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: kjulks on August 28, 2015, 06:12:11 PM
I've heard anecdotal examples of bicycle helmets causing traumatic head and neck injuries, even death. Google it. There's no such thing as a safety product without hazard. In truth, there's no such thing as safety. Doesn't mean bicycle manufacturers shouldn't encourage people to wear helmets.
Lemme put that part of it another way then. There's a principle in LEED building design and certification that says "Respect diversity". What they mean is don't expect to design a sustainable building for the Amazon that will also work in Siberia. Don't make a marketable statement the industry-wide mantra when it's 100% inappropriate in some situations.

I'm not talking about freak accidents. I'm talking about what could become, if it's not already, a statistically significant population of paddleboarders taking leashes out on rivers for recreation. Reducing the concept of risk management to nothing with "There's no such thing as a safety product without hazard. In truth, there's no such thing as safety" kills me. I know that. There's no guarantee that I won't fall out of my chair right now and die. But do me a favor and don't bring that up like it has any bearing on treating different SUP circumstances differently when it comes to appropriate use of safety equipment.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: thorn on August 28, 2015, 07:10:21 PM
Leashes and PFDs for those gomers all the time

completely OT but are you in medicine? Never seen anyone use the term gomer who hasn't read The House of God.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: thorn on August 28, 2015, 07:12:29 PM
However, what about if you have a spouse, or family?  What about what you could be potentially leaving behind?  For the ones that you care about that are left behind to deal with the aftermath like Andres Pombo's family has had to, how would you feel about that?  They have suffered threw a few false reports that he was found alive, and then had to suffer through waiting for his body to surface.  What if your body weren't found for weeks?

Yeah I have 4 kids. I want them to learn to love the outdoors, to try new things, to be active - but also I want them to learn by example to be safe and also know that I took as many steps as reasonably possible to keep myself safe on my adventures.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Area 10 on August 29, 2015, 02:05:12 AM
I've heard anecdotal examples of bicycle helmets causing traumatic head and neck injuries, even death. Google it. There's no such thing as a safety product without hazard. In truth, there's no such thing as safety. Doesn't mean bicycle manufacturers shouldn't encourage people to wear helmets.
Lemme put that part of it another way then. There's a principle in LEED building design and certification that says "Respect diversity". What they mean is don't expect to design a sustainable building for the Amazon that will also work in Siberia. Don't make a marketable statement the industry-wide mantra when it's 100% inappropriate in some situations.

I'm not talking about freak accidents. I'm talking about what could become, if it's not already, a statistically significant population of paddleboarders taking leashes out on rivers for recreation. Reducing the concept of risk management to nothing with "There's no such thing as a safety product without hazard. In truth, there's no such thing as safety" kills me. I know that. There's no guarantee that I won't fall out of my chair right now and die. But do me a favor and don't bring that up like it has any bearing on treating different SUP circumstances differently when it comes to appropriate use of safety equipment.
So, if your objection is just that "leashes saves lives" isn't always true, then why not suggest an alternative such as "Be leash aware" or "Be smart, be leash aware". In the same way that you argue that the only available options are not saying "leashes save lives" or doing nothing, I don't accept that the only alternative to "leashes save lives" is a page of complicated text.

You have a valid point, but criticism alone won't solve the problem we all want solving, which is that people are routinely risking their lives needlessly. So I'd welcome hearing some suggestions from you for alternative messages that get across the need to understand the importance of leashes as part of your potential life-saving equipment. It also needs to be simple enough to be effective.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 29, 2015, 06:33:01 AM
Here are links to two more SUP fatalities (both were again beginners) that were caused by entrapment:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/67613131/Familys-poignant-paddleboard-safety-plea

http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=27780.0

It seems that entrapment may be the leading cause of SUP fatalities.  To make an industry wide change i would first want that data.  Possibly Beware of entrapment would be the resulting line.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 29, 2015, 06:56:18 AM
Admin, I hear your argument, but it seems like you're looking at the situation through a microscope. I'm not going to argue that leashes didn't cause those tragedies, but you may be missing the vast amount of times they prevented one. Perhaps better designed leashes are the answer?

The only time I ever got into real trouble on my SUP was when I had forgotten my leash. I fell in cold water and had to do a long swim while dangerous water was pouring into my wetsuit. (I shouldn't have had the wetsuit collar open either, but it was a warm day.) I'm not trying to continue the argument, only to say that your points are valid but they seem to be missing the bigger point.

If you don't like leashes (which I understand), is it right to argue against them when they protect in the vast number of cases? You'll probably say “Yes” but I want to point out what I'm seeing. Should we tell people not to wear a leash? Will most beginners understand the distinctions you as an expert are making?
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 29, 2015, 07:05:56 AM
Hi IS,

I don't think anyone here is promoting any reduction in leash use (or PFD use, swimming lessons, game plans, whistles, helmets, cell phones or any successful safety tactics that are currently in use).  I certainly am not.  We are talking about making things better from the status quo in the best way possible.  That means reducing the types of incidents that are occurring without causing more.

As others have mentioned here we will not know what combination of current safety practices is leading to that status quo.  We can however try to better the situation and to do that we would need to understand the fatalities that actually are happening. 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 29, 2015, 07:12:54 AM
That's fine. I hope we can come to some sort of general idea of best practices.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 29, 2015, 07:51:38 AM
Holy shit, those links are pretty compelling, especially the first one. Horrific. Okay, I'm convinced, "leashes save lives" is not a good idea. Let's work on an alternative.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: standuped on August 29, 2015, 08:40:31 AM
Here are links to two more SUP fatalities (both were again beginners) that were caused by entrapment:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/67613131/Familys-poignant-paddleboard-safety-plea

http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=27780.0

It seems that entrapment may be the leading cause of SUP fatalities.  To make an industry wide change i would first want that data.  Possibly Beware of entrapment would be the resulting line.

Wow, the NZ girl really set me way back.  Maybe more so than Andres.  I was pro leash prior to reading that.  Can't come up with a silver bullet slogan at the moment.

Russell said Amie - a strong swimmer who was wearing a life jacket at the time - was unable to release her leg strap, while he and others who dived to save her were also unable to undo it.

"The breakaway mechanism that caused our tragedy is just a bloody disaster. I couldn't break it away. She was stuck. We don't honestly know what she was caught on.


Canoes are well know to be the unsuspecting killers of the water craft world.  SUP I believe can very easily eclipse that if we don't all preach the safety...... preach the safety.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 29, 2015, 08:46:38 AM
Yeah, I'm having a somber breakfast after reading that. I still get some kind of kick out of good marketing, but if something I helped with caused something like that my life would suck ever after.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: robon on August 29, 2015, 08:52:06 AM
There has also been several deaths on open water inland lakes where the paddler wasn't wearing a leash, and one of these deaths occurred on lake Geneva in June of this year. It wasn't an entrapment death. We are kinda cherry picking this topic ad nauseam, pointing out specific causes of death to try and prove a point, but in the end it is more speculation than anything and from what I am reading on this forum, personal opinions in large part. We have already discussed that individuals have failed to deploy their inflatable PFDs when falling off their boards, and entrapment deaths might still occur without a leash and PFD when you are trapped under a barge, a house boat or a log or whatever.

The point remains to be informed and make a choice in having the most applicable safety gear for what the paddling situation warrants at that given point in time.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Chan on August 29, 2015, 09:05:15 AM
I've tried to read thru this entire thread to make sure I'm not saying something already said.  Of course safety should be a high priority, and yes sometimes what you think should save you, might in some circumstances be what kills you.  I think it comes down to using your head, maybe practicing a few things to make sure you have your plan for if things go bad, etc.  Granted, we can't plan for everything, but there is a reason why police and firemen train and practice.  Anyway, my only additional thought on this huge issue is what each person might want to consider when they head out for a paddle.  You might be a true waterman, super healthy, super experienced, etc and it is your choice about your safety gear.  And, if you die because you didn't use it, or died because you did but you ran into what Pono Bill described in another thread "a perfect storm", it is your choice.  However, what about if you have a spouse, or family?  What about what you could be potentially leaving behind?  For the ones that you care about that are left behind to deal with the aftermath like Andres Pombo's family has had to, how would you feel about that?  They have suffered threw a few false reports that he was found alive, and then had to suffer through waiting for his body to surface.  What if your body weren't found for weeks?  I'm not sure how life insurance works on the payout, but what if your family wasn't in the best of financial shape and now needed the money from your policy, but they have to wait because your body hasn't been found.  Again, I don't know if that could happen, but I'm just bringing it up.  Sometimes, it not just you that is affected by your choices, it's also the ones that you love.  Andres's family needed the help of many to get out there and deal with bringing him back home.  Would you want your loved ones to suffer like that?  Not trying be sound all high and mightly, it's just another thing to maybe think about when you make your choices.

Hi Weeble,

I agree, Andres' family's loss is heart wrenching.  I am so sorry for their loss.  As a mom, I would want answers.  In fact that's a lot of what I'm feeling from this discussion.  People want to take action.  We want this not to have happened.  We don't want it to happen again. 

We do open water swim and have swam the Columbia.  I wouldn't want to risk my safety or the safety of any rescue personnel but I am certain I can comfortably swim that water in the conditions I swim in.  However, this incident has prompted me to reconsider the hidden risk of entanglement.   Nets, particularly lost and damaged nets, have become an increasing hazard.  A regular downwinder from Viento to Hood River passes by/over many net locations.  I'm ready to starfish or ball up if I get bucked but it's a growing concern.  The tribal council have treaty rights to net these waters and they have posted safety warnings explaining the risks. 

I mention all of this because I can't get it out of mind that this may have been a factor.  I wouldn't want people harboring unnecessary residual guilt. 

Here is a photo of what we regularly encounter:
(http://www.critfc.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/P9080004.jpg)

Additional information:

http://www.critfc.org/for-kids-home/public-resources/river-safety/




   
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Easy Rider on August 29, 2015, 09:51:30 AM
There has also been several deaths on open water inland lakes where the paddler wasn't wearing a leash, and one of these deaths occurred on lake Geneva in June of this year. It wasn't an entrapment death. We are kinda cherry picking this topic ad nauseam, pointing out specific causes of death to try and prove a point, but in the end it is more speculation than anything and from what I am reading on this forum, personal opinions in large part. We have already discussed that individuals have failed to deploy their inflatable PFDs when falling off their boards, and entrapment deaths might still occur without a leash and PFD when you are trapped under a barge, a house boat or a log or whatever.

The point remains to be informed and make a choice in having the most applicable safety gear for what the paddling situation warrants at that given point in time.

Agreed. 
While the cases of "leash entrapment" are truly horrific - I wonder what the statistics are for instances where leashes have saved a life?  I can't really find anything - as these situations are never reported. 
From customer comments this past week I know of several people that are safe and sound due to wearing a leash. 
Also to note - where I am from - northern Canada - cold water is the biggest issue we deal with in terms of safety.   Being able to quickly get back on your board is key for us here. 

Also - I am curious the number of entrapment tragedies that involved a straight (surf) leash vs. a coiled leash.   
All we sell here are coiled leashes.   Again - making sure that the leash or leash system that you are using is vitally important to the type of paddling you are doing.


Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: TallDude on August 29, 2015, 10:25:26 AM
I hate coiled leashes. I was surfing at Nuc's maybe 5 years ago during winter. It's a reef break so you're out there. I took the first set wave, and lost it somewhere along the line. I got rolled pretty good. When I came up my coiled leash had wrapped around my paddle shaft, and twisted into a knot. The real problem was my ankle was now twisted right  up against my paddle shaft. Guess what? Here comes mack'g wave 2 right on my head. I get rolled again, but my paddle is still strapped to my frick'n ankle, and my board is dragging me. Now I can feel the cold water temp cutting through my 2/3 wetsuit. I'm along way from shore, and trapped by my coil leash. I took 3 or 4 more on the head before I realized I had my paddle with a 2 piece shaft. I pulled the shaft apart and freed my ankle. When I got to back to the shore, that leash went straight into the trash can.
A few years later I was surfing on my nieces paddle board she had just picked up. It came with a coiled leash. The first time I fell, the leash wrapped around my paddle. I thought to myself " I hate coiled leashed!"
At the BOP last year, for some unknown reason I brought a coiled leash. I got hit by a ton of boards and rolled 'Jack-Ass' comedy. My leash when between my toes, under my foot, and around my ankle twice. I had to return to the beach to untie it. "I hate coiled leashes". Did I say that already???   
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 29, 2015, 10:31:55 AM
No easy answers, and that's a good reason to talk it out. I love a clean, clear message and "Leashes Save Lives" is exactly that, but it isn't one I'd want to give to that beautiful girl's father.

So it's time for a reset, and some careful thought. I want to help make this sport safer. I'm willing to work for that, and more than willing to step back and rethink an idea that is certainly elegant and to the point, but might have some very rough unintended consequences.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: thorn on August 29, 2015, 10:35:15 AM
All PFDs come with that little booklet on choosing the right PFD for you - it outlines the different types and the pros and cons of each in simple layouts with simple graphics. Maybe a similar booklet could be designed and come with every leash...
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: robon on August 29, 2015, 10:44:01 AM
Hey Warren,

I actually agree with the slogan in leashes save lives, but the sport in most parts of the world is still relatively young, and exceptions to the rule always occur and always will. For now, wearing the right gear for the presenting situation seems to quell the debate somewhat, and education is always prudent, but you bring up valid points that go far beyond cold water environments.

I was paddling off the coast of Victoria earlier this summer and was battling near OH conditions and got bucked off by some quartering swell trying to back to my start point that was several kilometres away. The water was warmer than I anticipated, but I definitely thought to myself what would have happened if I wasn't wearing a leash and my board got away? In that situation I might not have made it. I'm sure every single person on this thread that paddles distance or downwinds has been in COUNTLESS situations like this thinking, "shit I probably would have been f*cked without a leash". It has happened to me more than once in open water situations. Throw in the cold water environment and it becomes that much more important. The water on the lakes in my area doesn't freeze, but you are a dead man if you don't have a leash and fall off more than a few hundred feet from shore at certain times of the year and sometimes a PFD might not save you before hypothermia finishes the job. Of course this plays back to having the right equipment too such as a wetsuit at a bare minimum. Thing is we only hear about the accidents and mishaps regarding leashes and not the thousands and thousands of instances when they have, or likely have contributed to saving lives.

The same thing goes right back to the origins of seat belts, and even with advances in safety measures, seat belts sometimes still malfunction, and people still die or are severely injured as a result. Some panic and can't get the seat belt off in a submersion or accident scenario. Doesn't change the fact that seat belts save a hell of a lot more lives than not and there is not a sliver of doubt in my mind that the same is not true of leashes. Of course in certain scenarios leashes CAN be and ARE a hazard, but who is to say that some of these entrapment scenarios wouldn't still occur with a quick release waist leash or with no leash at all? People panic and somehow don't pull the conveniently located draw cord with inflatable PFDs and the drowning response may kill some individuals before help arrives as well.

Now it sounds like I have an agenda lol. With that said, it goes back to being appropriately prepared and educated for the areas and conditions we are entering as paddlers. Wether we champion a "leashes save lives" slogan or not is besides the point. However, I would not be surprised if this doesn't become a catch phrase in the near future. I'm willing to bet deaths caused by leashes are the rare exception, and not the norm. Once again, we hear about the entanglement scenarios more often than those cases where leashes helped or actually do save lives. Much more.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 29, 2015, 10:50:07 AM
Robon, you're absolutely right, and I agree with you and Warren completely, but I think that clear, simple, and elegant message just shouldn't be given, at least not in isolation.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: robon on August 29, 2015, 10:53:11 AM
Robon, you're absolutely right, and I agree with you and Warren completely, but I think that clear, simple, and elegant message just shouldn't be given, at least not in isolation.

True enough.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Eagle on August 29, 2015, 11:27:10 AM
Robon, you're absolutely right, and I agree with you and Warren completely, but I think that clear, simple, and elegant message just shouldn't be given, at least not in isolation.

^^^
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: magentawave on August 29, 2015, 12:18:22 PM
Last summer I did four raft trips in Montana with minor to fairly major rapids and I can understand how a regular leash dragging in the water could snag on rocks and junk and kill you if you didn't know what you were doing. The key, I think, would be a leash that never drags in the water because it goes from the leash plug to the ankle and then up to the waist where it attaches with something that would release quickly under pressure (Velcro??). Along with that should be a super easy to implement release at the ankle.

Sorry if this comes off sounding cold and callous, but as long as humans play in the water, there will be casualties, and no amount of hand-wringing or legislation is going to change that. However, businesses that rent sups should insist that their customers wear PFD's and perhaps the kind of leash I mentioned and then have them sign a waiver. I think the ideas being floated around for the businesses to VOLUNTARILY act on this BEFORE creepy self-serving politicians do is a great idea. It's going to cost them money so the key for persuading them is that their actions now will preempt legislation and lessen the possibility of being sued.

Of course none of that will do a bit of good for the Harry MacDoofus that's never or hardly ever been in the water and rents a sup for the afternoon to cruise down a river, falls off, snags the leash and then panics because Harry doesn't have rough water experience like the kind that the average sup surfer deals with every time they go surfing.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 29, 2015, 12:32:55 PM
While the cases of "leash entrapment" are truly horrific - I wonder what the statistics are for instances where leashes have saved a life?  I can't really find anything - as these situations are never reported. 
There's really no way to know.  With the leash, you fall in, get back on the board and continue on.  Without it, assuming the lack of leash wouldn't make anyone more cautious, usually people would get back on their board.  Sometimes, the board would shoot away, then a buddy would grab it or you'd eventually swim to it.  A few times, you couldn't reach it and would swim to shore, or you'd tread water or float in your pfd until a boat came.  A few times, you'd drown...And there are very few instances where someone falling with a leash would ever notice any danger to the point they'd think, "Wow, if I hadn't had my leash I could've drowned".
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Subber on August 29, 2015, 02:56:41 PM
...Along with that should be a super easy to implement release at the ankle....

I had a leash entrapment/entanglement issue about 15 years - it really got my attention.
My leash got hooked a rock; I was in about 5 feet of water with waves going over my head.
It took several tries before I could get the leash off of my ankle.  I definitely could see the danger.

So, Now, whenever I get a new leash, I take a BIC lighter and singe about the first inch of Velcro
towards the release strap.  Also, if the little strap you are supposed to pull seems too short -
- doesn't give enough leverage to easily pull but the Velcro apart - I sew on an extension - usually an
inch or two.  I find these steps make it much easier to get the leash off your ankle....and it still
works like normal as far as staying attached when you wipe out.   I've only had a board get away once,
when the Velcro let loose; however, I'm fairly sure I hadn't really tightened it much in the first place. 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 29, 2015, 03:23:13 PM
Won't work in current, you can't bend to get to it. Surprising how little current it takes. When my leash got trapped at Lanes I was just in the usual wave thrust and suck, but I couldn't reach my ankle. Believe me I was trying. It popped free from the rocks as I was running out of options. I was down about two feet from the surface. I started wearing calf leashes after that, but had them pull off a couple of times. Damned if you do...
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Area 10 on August 29, 2015, 03:23:56 PM
Yeah, I'm having a somber breakfast after reading that. I still get some kind of kick out of good marketing, but if something I helped with caused something like that my life would suck ever after.
As I've said before, waist leashes are the best in pretty much any situation. Ankle leashes with just a little tab to release them are a liability in many SUP situations. They have nearly killed me twice. You just can't get them off - or off quickly enough - when you are caught up in a critical situation.

We need waist leashes with big and easily accessible quick release mechanisms. I use one that is taken from a kayak rescue line, and it has a big floating ball attached to the buckle. As long as you can reach that and pull it, you should be able to get free quickly. It also works well for beach finishes in races - much quicker and easier to get off than eg. a knee leash. UKRiversurfers was making his own a long time ago because he foresaw these issues.

So, as I've said before, some of these tragic deaths could perhaps have been avoided by the use of a different design of leash. So maybe don't be quite so quick to give up on leashes altogether? We just need designs more appropriate for the application. The most currently used designs are amongst the most dangerous. And that is ridiculous.

There is definitely an entrepreneurial opportunity here...
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: SUP Sports ® on August 29, 2015, 03:27:05 PM
The only leash that we have ever included for free with our boards over the last 10 years of selling SUPs has been the XM big wave rated leash with patented quick release pull loop...we feel that strongly about it...if they have even saved one life then it was worth it...

BTW, I started using them after I had a snag at "Shark's Reef" while prone surfing that held me under until I saw stars...

http://supsports.com/shop/gear/safety-leash/
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Easy Rider on August 29, 2015, 03:40:14 PM
Those are great leashes Wardog . . . for your application. 

To further my point - these are the leashes we sell. 
Custom colored On A Mission coil leashes.   
They work exceptionally well for our conditions and use. 

It is all about choosing what works best for your individual set of circumstances - and educating yourself in its use.

(http://www.theeasyrider.com/palladium/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/IMG_9046.jpg)
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: SUP Sports ® on August 29, 2015, 04:02:10 PM
I should also add that for my application (waves) I alternate between leashes...I also sell the clear version...so black one day...clear the next...
I never use any product that my life depends on until failure...learned that from windsurfing in giant waves and currents that you cannot possibly swim against...downhauls...outhauls...inhauls...universal joints all changed out every year whether they *needed* it or not...

Colored urethane is OK for flatwater...but, I always felt that adding pigment would weaken it...nothing scientific there...but, every colored leash I ever had...partial to blue in my decades of crawling days...ended in failure...I also believe in double folded over Velcro for the leash rope attachment...and, 4mm Marlow for leash rope...of course double leash plugs...hasn't failed me yet...;-)
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Easy Rider on August 29, 2015, 04:11:44 PM
Wardog - Black and clear urethane has pigments added.  Urethane in its raw form is yellow'ish / amber. 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 29, 2015, 04:18:44 PM
The posts by Easy Rider and SUPsports illustrate a big part of the problem by showing what's not the problem.  Two shop owners show the leashes they recommend (and sell or include) based on the conditions their customers encounter.  Sounds like nobody walks out of either store with a new board without a leash to go with it, or at least without being asked if they have one (not just if they want one).  Same is true of my local shop.  Probably nobody buys a leash at any of them without being asked what it's for, either.  If all boards were bought or rented from businesses like these, safety would increase remarkably. 

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: goodfornothin on August 29, 2015, 04:23:47 PM
Waist leash. Downwinding, small waves, big waves.

I've scene stars and pink elephants,,with a quick release. Very rare can you get that pin undone with a load on it, let alone the current, coupled with hypoxia.

Waist leash allows.quick release of leash or belt.
Waist leash keeps a 4-20ft leash out of your feet
Waist leash allows you to use less energy and eases hypoxia on big hold downs
Looks gay as hell,,we are suping

I should have drowned out at avalanches with a quick release. I'm an x ranked national.swimmer and national team member in water polo. As messed up as I am, I still a beast in the water and  I couldn't get to my foot. Two wave hold down drug two football.fields, it sucked. I got so lucky

I almost drowned on a big towing day at mexi beach, with a vest. I was pinned for two waves.

So I'm with kalama on this. Get flotation, who cares if you look the kook. And get a lot of it and don't be afraid to wear it
Same dam thing with the waist belt, it works and it's safer. I wish some people with more pull than my sorry ass would start advocating this. 

I will.admit, I was spooked after avalanches. If my leash hadn't broke I would have drowned.  I got the waist leash and went to Killers with my buddy Troy.  He caught a bunch of bombs and I however sat on the inside for a half hour and got my head back straight and see how the waist leash works.  (Haley talked me Into it one day out at newport harbor. Thank you for that by the way. You will.help.save a lot of lives if you keep advocating as you are.)

It worked great. I don't think I ever took a stroke to get air.  And I was sitting directly in the impact zone, getting detonated.  I think troy thought I had finally lost my mind.  Then my leash broke, hahaha that sucked. I swam like 2 miles searching for that dam board. It has replaced all my lost confidence. 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: standuped on August 29, 2015, 05:08:47 PM
Waist leash.............. It has replaced all my lost confidence.
Thanks for this reminder. It's on my list to do.. What/where did you get?
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: SUP Sports ® on August 29, 2015, 05:50:30 PM
Don't get too carried away with this leash stuff...at the end of the day...leashes won't save your arse...fitness...experience...external help...and/or, luck will...
I went to double plugs and double leashes after almost losing my life in 48* H20 after swimming relentlessly with no avail for 45 minutes after a leash plug pull out during a 3 hour surf sesh...I'm talking at a spot that flips 45' Coast Guard cutters on end like little toys...;-)
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Blue crab on August 29, 2015, 06:12:21 PM
With that said, it goes back to being appropriately prepared and educated for the areas and conditions we are entering as paddlers. Wether we champion a "leashes save lives" slogan or not is besides the point. However, I would not be surprised if this doesn't become a catch phrase in the near future. I'm willing to bet deaths caused by leashes are the rare exception, and not the norm. Once again, we hear about the entanglement scenarios more often than those cases where leashes helped or actually do save lives. Much more.

Spot on. I've no idea what the best way to market the message is. However, at least in certain contexts (high volume downwind runs), it is so obviously clear. My instinct is that the routine use of leashes saved a non-trivial number of lives in the gorge last weekend.  I  am completely certain that the routine use of leashes prevented dozens of people from having to endure long swims to shore, lost expensive boards and unneeded worry amongst loved ones.  The message "Leashes save lives", while perhaps not applicable to all settings, seems absolutely perfect for the downwind context (perhaps at the entrance to highly trafficked downwind runs, nearby surf shops etc....).
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 29, 2015, 07:09:10 PM
The largest group of Stand Up Paddlers goes a single time a year.  60% go 3 times or less.

From what I can find, the vast majority of the potentially preventable fatalities (excluding things like boating collisions, fins to the head, heart attack, etc) were novices.  That is where the greatest opportunity to improve safety lies.

http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.americancanoe.org/resource/resmgr/General-documents/ResearchPaddlesports2013.pdf

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Glowmaster on August 29, 2015, 07:12:26 PM
Minds can  be changed.  While i was made fun of in the 90s wearing a helmet windsurfing, now it is common even on multihull sailboats. Common sense will eventually win out,  more if nudged along. 

ed
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 29, 2015, 07:31:41 PM
Admin--I don't suppose they have a percentage for 250+ times?

Honestly, I think the slogan is fine, and it already seems to have a life of it's own. But I'm going to put my efforts into the other stuff. A general open docs pamphlet that shops can print if they choose, that talks about all the bits and pieces of being safe on a SUP. A video about safe downwinding in the Gorge. And anything else that pops into my head. I'm also quite willing to help with furthering the "Leashes Save Lives" effort, because I believe they truly do. But the more I read Bic's copy on leashes and safety, the better I like it.

I heard an interview with Jack O'Neill years ago wherein he was asked why O'Neil the company didn't make leashes (they do now, in kind of a halfhearted way) and he said he never considered leashes to be safety equipment, it was so surfers didn't have to keep swimming to the beach. But now people were relying on them to keep them safe in conditions they couldn't handle, and he didn't like that. He said something like "No one has ever engineered these things for safety."
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 29, 2015, 09:04:57 PM
The largest group of Stand Up Paddlers goes a single time a year.  60% go 3 times or less.

From what I can find, the vast majority of the potentially preventable fatalities (excluding things like boating collisions, fins to the head, heart attack, etc) were novices.  That is where the greatest opportunity to improve safety lies.

http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.americancanoe.org/resource/resmgr/General-documents/ResearchPaddlesports2013.pdf (http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.americancanoe.org/resource/resmgr/General-documents/ResearchPaddlesports2013.pdf)
Based on the statistics and the drownings I remember reading about, the very first priority might be getting rental places to require customers to wear standard pfds and/or leashes. 



Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: magentawave on August 29, 2015, 09:11:08 PM
PonoBill's experience at Lanes is very scary and something I hadn't thought about when surfing rocks. I stand corrected - waist leashes or at least calf leashes makes a lot more sense. I've had my calf leash get yanked right off my foot too.


Helmets and body armor because those America's Cup cats can push 60 mph in ideal conditions. Just falling off at those speeds and you'll probably break something from skipping across the surface. We used to make fun of the euros on Maui that windsurfed with helmets. They never smiled and always looked pissed off. We used to call them "Helmut" (pronounced HELL-MOOT!) but there's no doubt a crack to the head by our rig or board on a mast high+ day could have killed any of us. Heck, even on a little day too! Remember when Tom Carroll used to wear a helmet at pipe?

Minds can  be changed.  While i was made fun of in the 90s wearing a helmet windsurfing, now it is common even on multihull sailboats. Common sense will eventually win out,  more if nudged along. 



60% go only 3 times or less per year is an amazing statistic. We really are in the minority.

The largest group of Stand Up Paddlers goes a single time a year.  60% go 3 times or less.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: lucabrasi on August 30, 2015, 06:52:21 AM
Nice start to getting this out there Easy. Looks like your open letter to the industry is getting picked up and really making the rounds.  You are definitely going down the path of raising awareness. The details of when, why, where and all that will follow. Nice job and nice start.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 30, 2015, 06:58:05 AM
The largest group of Stand Up Paddlers goes a single time a year.  60% go 3 times or less.

From what I can find, the vast majority of the potentially preventable fatalities (excluding things like boating collisions, fins to the head, heart attack, etc) were novices.  That is where the greatest opportunity to improve safety lies.

http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.americancanoe.org/resource/resmgr/General-documents/ResearchPaddlesports2013.pdf (http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.americancanoe.org/resource/resmgr/General-documents/ResearchPaddlesports2013.pdf)
Based on the statistics and the drownings I remember reading about, the very first priority might be getting rental places to require customers to wear standard pfds and/or leashes.

It is wild to think of it that way.  Over 540,000 people SUPing once per year.  Over 900,000 people who SUP 3 times or less a year.  To that group I would think any broad sweeping suggestion would have to be all three: Site Specific Instruction, Standard PFD, Leash (with strong caveats for certain areas/situations).

*-based on the ACA's 2012 study (above) which showed 1.5 million participants.  That is likely higher now.

Here is the ACA's take:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMjgnFPnEqU
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 30, 2015, 07:29:48 AM
That's a really good video. Thanks.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: kjulks on August 30, 2015, 07:56:54 AM
I don't accept that the only alternative to "leashes save lives" is a page of complicated text.

You have a valid point, but criticism alone won't solve the problem we all want solving, which is that people are routinely risking their lives needlessly. So I'd welcome hearing some suggestions from you for alternative messages that get across the need to understand the importance of leashes as part of your potential life-saving equipment. It also needs to be simple enough to be effective.
You're right. And so is PonoBill. Sorry for just being on the negative side of the issue. I just wanted to make sure that those points were brought up and defended.

As far as suggestions... in wilderness medicine we use a lot of TLAs (probably borrowed from the military) because they're easy to remember. Mnemonics in general are pretty standard for helping convey complex messages with formulaic outputs. (ABCDE for life threats, rule of 3s for survival, SAMPLE, etc) So something that captured that simple input->output and was memorable...

So here's the brainstorm, feel free to critique the hell out of it since I've been dishing critiques all day.

Input              Output
Lake               PFD on or leash (redundancy wouldn't be bad)
River*             PFD on, leash aware
Surf*               Leash
Downwind*     Leash (PFD as redundancy wouldn't be bad)
Cold                Redundancy +++
Whitewater    Not experienced enough to say. Lots of gear.

* denotes the scenarios where one or the other could be detrimental to your margin of safety. ie, a leash in a river could easily lead to a snag scenario, a PFD on in surf means you're not getting under waves, a downwind without a leash means you're waving goodbye to your board.

So maybe just targeting those three in particular. You guys would know better than me, but my gut tells me that people wearing PFDs in surf isn't a huge issue. In other words, you might not even need to highlight the need to NOT wear a PFD in the surf. (Not talking about tow-ins and that kind of craziness.)

Waves and bumps -> leash
Moving water -> PFD

So uh... Leash it up for wind and waves, float it down the river. That's dumb... DSL,PR? Downwind Surf Leash, P(FD) River? Those are existing ubiquitous acronyms, might be easy to remember. Eh... "Would you put a leash on your dog swimming in the river?" Nah, too emotionally charged and a bit of a stretch... SPR(a)WL -> Stream PReserver Waves/Wind Leash

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Off-Shore on August 30, 2015, 08:27:58 AM

Here is the ACA's take:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMjgnFPnEqU

That is a must watch Video.. Very clear and educational. All we need now is to add a piece to this on downwinding.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: goodfornothin on August 30, 2015, 08:30:42 AM
Seems to me as outside observer,,,,you guys are way over thinking this.  Acronyms,  videos, work shops, Ted talks, next up govt policies,,when does it stop.  At some point the responsibility to stay safe is on your shoulders, and yours alone.  There appears to be solid videos allready, and all.the other media seems to be in place.

Make the safest components available at the rentals and at the shops. Reduce the price of leashes and pfd's to encourage use.  The rest should be on the users shoulders.

Waist leash, just sayin

Works in rivers
Works in oceans
Works in lakes

Because you can safely exit the device, instantly, under duress or static pressure.  How about making these available at everyones shop that owns one here at the zone.  They are the easiest thing in the world to build. You can even embroider your  shop name on belt. That's kinda cool, in a kooky way.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 30, 2015, 08:55:24 AM
GoodforNuttin'--this is what forums are for. I always think it's cheeseball to quote a definition, but this is the definition of forum: a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

The sole responsibility for safety doesn't rest just with the person taking the risks. If that were true there wouldn't be a 34 million vehicle recall on Takata airbags going on right now. You assume your airbag makes you safer, and when it goes off you get drilled with nine pieces of shrapnel through the heart. Oops.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 30, 2015, 09:06:52 AM
Let's let the discussion be our contribution here.  Warren started a great thread.  Frankly, after all of the social media quick hits have faded from site (no typo) this will still be high in the search results and hopefully, the thought process that goes into your safety decisions will help newcomers make theirs.

Of interest.  Of kids under 18, 62 percent, either cannot swim or consider themselves weak swimmers.  It is 54 percent for their parents.  Many of these folks are SUPing.  We are indeed a bit myopic here. We lean towards giving advice that is based on our lifestyles but that is not the norm for the SUP demographic as a whole.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: goodfornothin on August 30, 2015, 08:08:43 PM
I just came off wrong. I'm all.for what you are doing.  Just suggesting that wheels can spin but things can stay in place.  There is good info out there. Just get it into shops.
 And I offered a very safe option, waist leash. Not sure how im.distracting from anything. But I'll happily let you guys get er done. 

Waist leashhhhhhhhhhhh,,,by
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 30, 2015, 08:26:48 PM
Not beating on you buddy, just pointing out that we're all doing what we're supposed to be doing. And yeah, I'm switching to waist leashes for everything.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Kaihoe on August 30, 2015, 08:44:00 PM
Wow just caught up on this thread, some really good stuff in here. Just a couple of thoughts to throw into the pot.

 Entrapment has always been an issue with leashes.... remember Mark Foo? Even with this you only see kooks or gurus without a leash.

 The waist leash is a huge improvement. But still has issues, after going over the falls in a surf race I came to the finish and couldn't get it off.  The 'cuff' had spun around and the release was somewhere round my back.  It took long enough to figure that in a race situation. I'd hate to think what that would have been like underwater and running out of breath   

 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 30, 2015, 09:41:21 PM
I had the same problem so I came up with a belt that I sewed to my camelback vest pack (baja). Unless the camelback managed to wind up reversed (pretty much impossible with your arms still attached) the release is always there. Positive too, it releases a plain piece of strap and the leash has standard railsaver that goes over it. Simple as bricks. Doesn't need the railsaver, a plain loop would make more sense, but I just robbed one off an old leash. I'll shoot a picture later.

No good for surfing though. I'll figure something out for that. Maybe sew the buckle end of the belt to the Boardshorts. A snap or clip would work too.

I'm using a camlock buckle with a pull lanyard attached to the buckle. It's not ideal, it could be accidentally released. If someone has a better idea I'd be interested. I considered the kind of releases we use in race cars, but nah. Overkill.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 30, 2015, 10:27:33 PM
Admin error!  My apologies Mike, I went to quote you and overwrote your post.  Kindly repost.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Area 10 on August 31, 2015, 05:05:20 AM
Wow just caught up on this thread, some really good stuff in here. Just a couple of thoughts to throw into the pot.

 Entrapment has always been an issue with leashes.... remember Mark Foo? Even with this you only see kooks or gurus without a leash.

 The waist leash is a huge improvement. But still has issues, after going over the falls in a surf race I came to the finish and couldn't get it off.  The 'cuff' had spun around and the release was somewhere round my back.  It took long enough to figure that in a race situation. I'd hate to think what that would have been like underwater and running out of breath
I use the belt from a kayak rescue tow line. It has an arrangement where the leash attaches to the belt in such a way that it prevents the belt from being pulled around when a load is applied. It attaches to the belt via a loop that changes the direction of the pull so there is pull in opposite directions at once. Hard to explain but easy to see how it works if I can get a picture. Anyway, the point is that this issue is solvable, especially if you also have a pin-release type arrangement at the rear of the belt as a failsafe.

These are design issues and it's about time that someone somewhere started making waist leashes specifically designed for SUP. They'd be money in it, as well as the warm glow of knowing that you'd saved some lives. Surely (maybe with PB's internet marketing know-how?) some enterprising person out there could take this on. If RSPro can capture the market in rail tape and make money out of it, somebody should be able to so the same for SUP leashes.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Gramps on August 31, 2015, 07:11:32 AM

These are design issues and it's about time that someone somewhere started making waist leashes specifically designed for SUP. They'd be money in it, as well as the warm glow of knowing that you'd saved some lives. Surely (maybe with PB's internet marketing know-how?) some enterprising person out there could take this on. If RSPro can capture the market in rail tape and make money out of it, somebody should be able to so the same for SUP leashes.

I've never used either but are the NRS and Corran waist leashes not designed for SUP?  I assume they are aiming mainly at river SUP but why wouldn't they work in other situations?
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 31, 2015, 07:33:37 AM
We have a couple of these.  They released well enough but are designed for use with twist resistant vests and they are a bit jangly.  There have been lots of kite issues where the on-harness (waist) release became inaccessible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MqWxTC5P8E
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: LaPerouseBay on August 31, 2015, 08:17:55 AM

These are design issues and it's about time that someone somewhere started making waist leashes specifically designed for SUP. They'd be money in it, as well as the warm glow of knowing that you'd saved some lives. Surely (maybe with PB's internet marketing know-how?) some enterprising person out there could take this on. If RSPro can capture the market in rail tape and make money out of it, somebody should be able to so the same for SUP leashes.


https://www.northshoreinc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=351&idcategory=86

I've had rear mounted quick release capability in my ski for years, but I had to fabricate it.  It's attached to the rear of the ski - much safer in surf. 

I revel in my dorky appearance.  I have one of these coming in February.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hydesportswear/the-wingman-the-first-life-jacket-youll-want-to-we

My current PFD is sun bleached white.  I hope this new one is color fast.  Time will tell.  I risked it on kickstarter because it's a great idea.  No need to ditch it if faced with a long swim...  I'll be wearing it on standup too. 

I clear my nose in the general direction of elite paddlers that don't promote safety for the less gifted.  That's what may have  killed Andres.   

Too soon?  Sorry.  My heart goes out to the profound loss for his family and friends.       
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Area 10 on August 31, 2015, 08:33:07 AM
You don't want metal carabiners and suchlike in critical situations when downwinding or surfing. They have a nasty tendency to end up smacking you in the face, catching your fingers, or damaging your board or wetsuit, especially when re-mounting. Don't ask me how I know this...

The release ball looks a bit small on the river leash video. It needs to be big, and you (and anyone attempting to rescue you) need to be able to know exactly where it is within a second with your eyes closed and getting churned around underwater.

I think the ideal leash would probably have two release mechanisms, one front, one back, so that however a belt might get pulled around on your torso you'd always be able to reach one.

And it needs to be able to be worn without a pfd. Most of us in eg. Europe and other places around the world don't wear pfds most of the time, and hardly anyone does in surf, unless it is huge and/or freezing cold.

This is an interesting conversation in that it helps in appreciating the very specific issues that the different subdisciplines of SUP face.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 31, 2015, 08:41:27 AM
I have a lot of pin-release snaps left over from old helmets (we use them for HANs devices). I might incorporate one of those into my downwinder belt leash as a second release. It's metal, but it's smooth and fairly small. I'll take pictures when I'm done. Not sure the snaps I have are all stainless. If the spring isn't, that would suck.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: stoneaxe on August 31, 2015, 08:46:50 AM
I think the ideal leash would probably have two release mechanisms, one front, one back, so that however a belt might get pulled around on your torso you'd always be able to reach one.

I had the same thought....how about simply velcro front and rear or better one on each side? Reach down across to your waist from either side and pull. If it gets twisted around you its still right there.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: magentawave on August 31, 2015, 08:53:12 AM
The Wingman looks good. How does it compare to the couple other similar products on the market? I think Jeff Clark developed something like this.


These are design issues and it's about time that someone somewhere started making waist leashes specifically designed for SUP. They'd be money in it, as well as the warm glow of knowing that you'd saved some lives. Surely (maybe with PB's internet marketing know-how?) some enterprising person out there could take this on. If RSPro can capture the market in rail tape and make money out of it, somebody should be able to so the same for SUP leashes.


https://www.northshoreinc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=351&idcategory=86

I've had rear mounted quick release capability in my ski for years, but I had to fabricate it.  It's attached to the rear of the ski - much safer in surf. 

I revel in my dorky appearance.  I have one of these coming in February.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hydesportswear/the-wingman-the-first-life-jacket-youll-want-to-we

My current PFD is sun bleached white.  I hope this new one is color fast.  Time will tell.  I risked it on kickstarter because it's a great idea.  No need to ditch it if faced with a long swim...  I'll be wearing it on standup too. 

I clear my nose in the general direction of elite paddlers that don't promote safety for the less gifted.  That's what may have  killed Andres.   

Too soon?  Sorry.  My heart goes out to the profound loss for his family and friends.     
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: eastbound on August 31, 2015, 09:03:00 AM
Beasho uses a waist leash with what he calls a "chicken loop"--plastic loops sewn to velcro of the waist leash, which allows quick grab/ditch if need be.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Admin on August 31, 2015, 09:17:31 AM
Quote
--one thing I dislike about the ACA is that it lobbies for mandatory pfd use--it doesn't support leashes as an alternative to pfds. ACA does have some interesting survey info about paddlers' thoughts about pfd use.

I hear you, Mike.  It gets tricky when they are making a suggestions for everyone (in our case _1.5 Million SUPers).  This article about the SUP death in Tahoe explains part of the why:

http://coastguard.dodlive.mil/2015/01/a-lifejacket-buys-you-time/

Also, if you google the term "dry drowning"...wild stuff like: http://www.nrs.com/safety_tips/dry_drowning.asp

And then there is this double SUP drowning in Germany, which calls back to your (correct) mention of all of the elements of safety.  Sometimes the most important safety device is the plan.

http://paddleathlete.com/2010/high-water-kills-two-top-stand-up-paddle-athletes/


Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Weeble on August 31, 2015, 09:56:47 AM
So, at this moment, are there any decent waist leashes out on the market?  I've looked around and found two, but they seemed way over complicated.  Are there some leashes out there that some of you are currently using that you'd recommend to start with?
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: TN_SUP on August 31, 2015, 10:45:58 AM
On the leash topic, I'm trying to figure out how to leash my stock prone board without it dragging in the water, thinking a waist leash may be the answer, or chopping down a SUP leash. I haven't found a single pic of anyone using one on the web. Anyone? I fall off a lot!
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Eagle on August 31, 2015, 10:51:28 AM
This is the Think QR leash we have posted before.  Because we normally wear a waist PFD or full PFD we just use the leash velco loop and attach it around any PFD strap.  No mods necessary.  Is at waist level instead of ankle or calf and has a QR clip easy to get at that always stays in the same place.  Gets the strap out of the way and if tangled can be easily accessed.  There are other leashes with plastic QR clips but they may not be strong enough when you need it - we like SS.  ;)

http://thinkkayak.com/product/765/

If you have any belt or loop attachment -> you can also simply clip directly.  If you are under load like in a river simply add any SS load QR shackle.  Here is pic of it attached to our MacGyvered paddle loop on our Bullet -
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 31, 2015, 11:28:04 AM
Admin error!  My apologies Mike, I went to quote you and overwrote your post.  Kindly repost.
HEY!!!  I wait three years for a thread where I can finally make what Gary Gilmore said to the firing squad relevant to the discussion, and you delete it???   >:(



Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: feet on August 31, 2015, 11:40:15 AM
I have the NRS QR waist leash. Santa brought it last Christmas.  So far I've only used it without the QR belt (have only used it on flatwater) but I did play around with the qr belt and it works well enough on dry land with my kids tugging on it. 

The leash itself is nice, and I like fact that the neoprene velco is both comfortable and big enough to fit over my calf below the knee. 

http://www.nrs.com/product/15991/nrs-quick-release-sup-leash?utm_campaign=shop_comp&utm_source=google&utm_medium=buy_now&utm_term=goog_product_15991&gclid=CJCCuf3508cCFUsXHwodJFMBog

I live a few blocks from the Delaware River (in a tidal section, so not as nice as the spot where Washington Crossed) and I've been hesitant to paddle on it because of the leash issue and fear of entanglement.  If I were to paddle on it, it would have this QR leash, plus my type III pfd with a Gerber River Runner Shorty knife, with serrated edge for cutting ropes/polypro straps, etc.

http://www.nrs.com/product/47258.02/gerber-river-shorty-knife


Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on August 31, 2015, 12:04:57 PM
It was wrong anyway PDX. What Gilmore said was actually "Just Do It". I heard that story at a Portland Ad Federation meeting about 20 years ago. Dan said the source of an inspiration doesn't taint it. I don't think he convinced anyone of that, but Nike's market share increased hugely after the Just Do It" campaigns started. More than double as I recall.

Those leashes look way too complicated. Right now I just use an 8' coiled leash connected to my camelback with the leg strap for my 17' Bullet. The best thing about it is a surprising benefit--you don't have to pay attention to where the leash is when you climb on the board. Hard to describe, but just by letting it pop up over your outside leg it's always in the right position. I'm going to move the leash attachment further forward to eliminate rudder tangling.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 31, 2015, 12:11:31 PM
It was wrong anyway PDX. What Gilmore said was actually "Just Do It". I heard that story at a Portland Ad Federation meeting about 20 years ago. Dan said the source of an inspiration doesn't taint it. I don't think he convinced anyone of that, but Nike's market share increased hugely after the Just Do It" campaigns started. More than double as I recall.

Those leashes look way too complicated. Right now I just use an 8' coiled leash connected to my camelback with the leg strap for my 17' Bullet. The best thing about it is a surprising benefit--you don't have to pay attention to where the leash is when you climb on the board. Hard to describe, but just by letting it pop up over your outside leg it's always in the right position. I'm going to move the leash attachment further forward to eliminate rudder tangling.
I thought he said, "Don't aim at my Reeboks". 


Actually I heard he said, "Let's do it" and Wieden modified it.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on August 31, 2015, 12:14:01 PM
Quote
--one thing I dislike about the ACA is that it lobbies for mandatory pfd use--it doesn't support leashes as an alternative to pfds. ACA does have some interesting survey info about paddlers' thoughts about pfd use.

I hear you, Mike.  It gets tricky when they are making a suggestions for everyone (in our case _1.5 Million SUPers).  This article about the SUP death in Tahoe explains part of the why:

http://coastguard.dodlive.mil/2015/01/a-lifejacket-buys-you-time/ (http://coastguard.dodlive.mil/2015/01/a-lifejacket-buys-you-time/)

Also, if you google the term "dry drowning"...wild stuff like: http://www.nrs.com/safety_tips/dry_drowning.asp (http://www.nrs.com/safety_tips/dry_drowning.asp)

And then there is this double SUP drowning in Germany, which calls back to your (correct) mention of all of the elements of safety.  Sometimes the most important safety device is the plan.

http://paddleathlete.com/2010/high-water-kills-two-top-stand-up-paddle-athletes/ (http://paddleathlete.com/2010/high-water-kills-two-top-stand-up-paddle-athletes/)
Those are pretty wild, especially the last one--experienced paddlers going together with leashes, pfds and even helmets, and both drowning anyway.


The videos and general info the ACA is great.  But last year I sent a few emails back and forth with them on their position on mandatory pfd laws. What was weird to me was they didn't seem to be thinking consistently.  I'm not sure they even realized the SUP requirement is not wearing one, but having one on board.  I pointed out the inconsistency of defending a law that makes someone in compliance for something (strapping a pfd on a board) that their own information warns against doing.  Their own surveys show a lot of standup paddlers don't want the mandatory pfd law.  They also show (sim. to the stats you posted) that many people participating in their surveys about what rules should apply to standup have hardly ever been on a SUP. 


The ACA seems like a powerful group, and might have some positive influence on SUP safety (actually they do just from their videos).  But I also worry about having them lobbying for anything affecting me when it seems like they don't have a lot of understanding of standup, at least as far as laws are concerned.  I also worry that if standup paddlers pushed the ACA to lobby for changes to SUP laws--say to change the law to "wear a leash or a pfd" instead of "carry a pfd", the result might be the ACA would choose to advocate "always wear a pfd". 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Eagle on August 31, 2015, 01:03:34 PM
"The two paddlers decided to go for a quick paddle after work on a section of river that was unusually high and were washed downstream into a hydraulic at the dam’s base, trapping and drowning the two men. Both were wearing helmets, life jackets and wearing leashes."

"Both men were very experienced watermen, knew the section of river very well, and had the necessary safety equipment."

http://paddleathlete.com/2010/high-water-kills-two-top-stand-up-paddle-athletes/

A more mundane benefit of a QR leash is that if your board flips and your leash wraps around the fin or your leg after you board -> you simply unclip unwrap and reclip.  The velco loop always stays attached to you.  Have seen times where DW paddlers get going again with the leash wrapped around the fin because it was not noticed -> especially in big wind and waves.  Always check before you get up that you are not tangled in any way.

Since we like to scoot forward and back to trim the board this simple QR solution works with no chance of tripping.  It feels like you do not even have any leash attached when used this way.  Also works great if you need to unclip during races. Waist attached QR has worked perfectly for our use.   :)
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: TN_SUP on August 31, 2015, 01:19:28 PM
The way you escape a hydraulic (if possible) is to remove your pfd and swim down to the deeper "green" water that is flowing downstream, which takes guts. Low head dams look harmless but are deadly. Two inner tubers and a fishermen drowned on a popular creek here in July, the first tuber went over a low head dam and got stuck in the hydraulic, his brother then followed him in an attempt to save him, then a fishermen jumped in to save them both. None expected a little dam to be deadly. I'm a dam engineer and we're constantly pushing for their removal, most no longer serve a function, in this case it was an old Mill.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Easy Rider on September 01, 2015, 12:02:06 PM
I am stoked that this thread is leading to so many good ideas / discussions.

I will let all you "tech guys" come up with the next great leash system. 

My main goal is in the direction of just getting people to know what a leash is - and why they should use one.

Selling a board to a customer yesterday and when it came to talking about getting a leash - he said "why?"  I explained all the benefits - and he grabbed a manufacturer brochure that we had been looking at - flipped through it and said - "no one in these pictures is using one."
It took a bit more convincing - but he eventually saw the benefit and got a leash as well. 

This is the "problem" that I see as having the biggest impact.  If none of the manufacturers and magazine have photos of people using leashes ON FLAT WATER - then why would the "newbie" even think of it as a requirement? 
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Eagle on September 01, 2015, 12:53:55 PM
This thread is good as it brings more awareness to many that visit this forum -> and by word of mouth.

Around here most stick very very close to shore and stay in very protected waters.  If there is any wind and waves they stay right next to the beach.  Hardly any wear leashes or PFDs as they feel their risk is very low in this environment.

Many have no desire to DW or even venture 1/4 mile away from land.  They just want to have a toy to play with when tanning with their kids and friends.  Most have inexpensive boards that come with a leash and paddle.  Only racers and those more serious own and use expensive carbon boards.

So definitely photos in brochures will help - as well as reports of fatalities - but if they see no need or risk -> they will continue to not wear PFDs and leashes.  There is no PFD policing where we are - so the only ones who wear safety gear are those that are concerned about their own personal safety.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on September 01, 2015, 03:19:20 PM
So I came up with two belt designs that I like. One uses two velcro flaps and two open buckles. The velcro laps through the buckle and then back over itself to stick down like any standard leg leash. I did a long tongue so it's easy to grab a free end and pull. I used two short belts instead of one long one so there's always a flap close by. If you wanted to really be sure you could use three, but I wiggled around in the two-belt version for a while and it's easy to find a pull flap no matter what I do. The belt supports my weight with the velcro doubled over the loop, so I'm not worried about unexpected releases unless the flap gets pulled.

Second option is similar, using camlock buckles. There's a company that makes a two-inch web belt with a camlock buckle for ten bucks. I guess the consensus is that a knob on a rope is easy to find and pull. I'm going to make on and test it. I can't quite picture having a problem with the belt buckle moving out of position if the leash is attached to the belt positively, instead of just being looped. If that emerges as a problem the double buckle (two short belts hooked together) might be as effective a solution as it seems to be with the velcro belt.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: goodfornothin on September 01, 2015, 03:32:39 PM
I used the belt off kayak supply.  The free end of the belt buckle is pretty long.  A simple tug away from body opens the buckle and belt releases.

I like your idea with velcro though, I end up placing buckle near my back so my fat doesn't accidently open it ;D ;D

The velcro may be safer.  You could build a quick release into the leash as well.  I use the Dakine gun leashes with quick release. But I bet a better rig could be built.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: eastbound on September 02, 2015, 08:49:59 AM
true that re small old dams--i was tubing in boulder creek 35 years ago with a friend and he got sucked in below a small old dam--i was hemming and hawing about whether i should dive in to attempt to save him and, thankfully, he popped up, ok. scary

sadly that guy (a fellow NYer) a developed a nasty coke habit, with a lot of debt to bad guys, and was found a year after graduation stabbed on subway tracks, just down from the 86th st  lexington line platform. murder never solved. scary
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: TN_SUP on September 02, 2015, 09:17:20 AM
Whitewater kayakers carry throw ropes for those situations, maybe tubers should too!
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on September 02, 2015, 09:24:25 AM
Tubers are mostly drunk frat boys or rednecks. Unlikely to carry anything more rational than a cooler in a tube. It's all fun until your run your feet under a snag. Don't ask how I know that.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: TN_SUP on September 02, 2015, 09:54:50 AM
When kayaking a Class I river, I spend half my day helping stuck tubers. Funniest thing I ever saw was when a thunderstorm/squall hit and blew them all upstream while I sprinted downstream. You're pretty helpless in a tube.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: eastbound on September 02, 2015, 01:20:43 PM
i thought they used to be called filters--when a big tree falls into a river and its many branches serve to filter the river
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Gramps on September 02, 2015, 01:59:28 PM
i thought they used to be called filters--when a big tree falls into a river and its many branches serve to filter the river

We've always called them "strainers" around here.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Easy Rider on September 03, 2015, 02:04:19 PM
Unfortunately this is what we are dealing with in Canada.
A "regulation" that was written by people that have no idea what SUP is about.


Link:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/debs-obs-resources-menu-4139.htm

Quoted here:
Transport Canada, like the United States Coast Guard, classifies Stand Up Paddleboards as human powered vessels when they are being used for navigation. When being used within the surf zone for surfing activities these requirements are not in force. When undertaking a trip or circuit such as a group crossing or solo outing, this is considered navigation.

As human powered vessels, Stand Up Paddleboards are subject to all carriage requirements, including lifejackets. There must be one Canadian approved lifejacket or personal floatation device available on board and available for immediate use. There are many PFD options available for ease of use, such as waist-pack inflatables (a popular choice among competitive rowers, who are also short on space and require a broad range of movement) or low profile paddling vests.

While we have received many requests for the consideration of a leash in lieu of a PFD, Transport Canada does not recognize the leash/paddleboard combination as a floatation device. The department has received many inquiries from Stand Up Paddleboarders regarding Section 4 (Substitute Safety Equipment) of the Small Vessel Regulations. This part is intended to provide like-to-like exemptions, for example for police marine units to make use of tactical PFDs, or for small commercial charter vessels to carry high buoyancy PFDs in place of small vessel lifejackets.

Transport Canada supports leash use, but not as an alternative to a lifejacket or personal floatation device.

End Quote.


Also to note is that in Canada you legally have 2 options.
1) Wear a PFD and have a sounding devise.
2) Have a PFD on board for each person on board / have a sounding devise / and have 15 meters of buoyant heaving line. 

With either option you also must have a waterproof light if paddling within 30 minutes of sunrise / sunset, or in periods of limited visibility.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: starman on September 08, 2015, 07:34:21 PM
I read a bit of the posts on leash's and their use but I think having a leash is more convenience than a safety device. At least that's why it was originally created. These days I think it's more for the safety of anyone in the path of a loose board or for preventing that expensive board from landing up on the rocks. That and to help with the wave count as one isn't swimming after their board as much. Weak swimmers and those with limited experience in rough water may easily drown with or without a leash if they panic. I can imagine more then a few ways I could expire with a ankle leash in the water. Plus given the number of complains on the Zone about broken leashes they are not super reliable.

So really the issue is how good of a swimmer are you? Think you can swim the width of the Columbia River on a windy day? Yea? How about when you're a bit winded after trying to get into big swells and fall? No? What's your fallback plan? How long can you tread water before someone comes to your aid? Just how far and for how long can you keep you head above water with swells breaking everywhere. I won't mention water temp. I also won't mention the idea of tying a PFD to your deck as safety.

Water safety ALWAYS starts with making smart choices and being a good swimmer. Strong swimmer even better. Flotation is next. Not as easy to drown when you can keep your head above water. You can get away with not being a great swimmer or being out of shape if you can float. Staying connected to your board is down the list. It's a really good idea to stay with your board and a leash helps but you sure as shit better know how to swim and have flotation available as a backup. Lastly use the old tried and true buddy system. Keep an eye on each other out there which can help keep a bad situation from getting worse. But once someone sinks it hard to be of much help. You have to be able to keep that head above water.

Which leads me to ask; how may of us has practiced putting one of those waist PFD's that you've inflated on in the water?

And lastly if we are making the leash a "safety device" that prevents drowning. How many leash companies are going to want to take on that liability?

I think safe SUP'ing all starts with the person holding the board and paddle before they get wet. How capable are they getting back to shore without that board and paddle and are they even thinking that before heading out?

Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: SUPer Oslo on September 17, 2015, 11:15:25 AM
Sorry - error
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: marcioferrari on September 17, 2015, 11:35:50 AM
It´s DavidJohn on the video.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: stoneaxe on September 17, 2015, 11:40:33 AM
Scary video from TotalSUP:
http://www.totalsup.com/en/videos/item/613 (http://www.totalsup.com/en/videos/item/613)

Leashes saves lives - use it!

Not actually from TotalSUP. That's DJ...longtime zoner and SUP videographer extraordinaire.
http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,27168.0.html
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on September 18, 2015, 10:10:19 AM
Good points Starman. A lot harder for manufacturers and regulators to cope with those elements of safety though. Swimming is the big deal, and I need to up my game there. I had to swim just a few hundred yards this year, and it was a lot harder than it used to be. Bad shoulders don't help, but I think it was mostly the Camelbak. Maybe it's time to look at some flotation in a shirt. Most of the new ideas for PFDs look kind of useless to me if you're going to swim yourself to safety. Inflating anything isn't going to help swimming. Most people who are not going straight into panic just need a little buoyancy in their chest and a bit at the waist.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: pdxmike on September 18, 2015, 12:54:57 PM
Unfortunately this is what we are dealing with in Canada.
A "regulation" that was written by people that have no idea what SUP is about.


Link:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/debs-obs-resources-menu-4139.htm (https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/debs-obs-resources-menu-4139.htm)

Quoted here:
Transport Canada, like the United States Coast Guard, classifies Stand Up Paddleboards as human powered vessels when they are being used for navigation. When being used within the surf zone for surfing activities these requirements are not in force. When undertaking a trip or circuit such as a group crossing or solo outing, this is considered navigation.

As human powered vessels, Stand Up Paddleboards are subject to all carriage requirements, including lifejackets. There must be one Canadian approved lifejacket or personal floatation device available on board and available for immediate use. There are many PFD options available for ease of use, such as waist-pack inflatables (a popular choice among competitive rowers, who are also short on space and require a broad range of movement) or low profile paddling vests.

While we have received many requests for the consideration of a leash in lieu of a PFD, Transport Canada does not recognize the leash/paddleboard combination as a floatation device. The department has received many inquiries from Stand Up Paddleboarders regarding Section 4 (Substitute Safety Equipment) of the Small Vessel Regulations. This part is intended to provide like-to-like exemptions, for example for police marine units to make use of tactical PFDs, or for small commercial charter vessels to carry high buoyancy PFDs in place of small vessel lifejackets.

Transport Canada supports leash use, but not as an alternative to a lifejacket or personal floatation device.

End Quote.


Also to note is that in Canada you legally have 2 options.
1) Wear a PFD and have a sounding devise.
2) Have a PFD on board for each person on board / have a sounding devise / and have 15 meters of buoyant heaving line. 

With either option you also must have a waterproof light if paddling within 30 minutes of sunrise / sunset, or in periods of limited visibility.
Sounds like Canada must get their bureaucrats from the same place as we do.  I can see if they had a preference of wearing a pfd over being attached to a board with a leash, but saying being attached to a board with a leash is not equivalent safety to having a pfd strapped to a loose board doesn't make sense.


At least we don't have the heaving line rule here.  How many times has anyone on a SUP actually used that line to heave to someone?  You could paddle 15 meters faster than you could reach down to get the line and throw it.  And who'd you be throwing it too, anyway?  The passenger of yours that fell off your board?  That heaving line regulation really proves your point that the rulemakers have no idea what SUP is about.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: supthecreek on June 03, 2017, 04:33:58 AM
Bump... lots of great info in these pages!

It's a good time of year to have this thread resurface!

Leash up and live long!
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on June 03, 2017, 07:01:12 AM
Agreed. All beginners especially need to leash up.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Wetstuff on June 03, 2017, 09:25:38 AM
100% Icky... Anybody who's gone 'off the back' has watched the board take off like a watermellon seed.  Without a leash, there might not be a second time.  'Darwin Awards' waiting for the taking.

(http://funnypictures1.fjcdn.com/pictures/The_8ba5ab_5672842.jpg)



Jim
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: PonoBill on June 03, 2017, 11:38:07 PM
I was paddling in Nichols the other day, which is a long, skinny, protected area probably 200 yards long by 50 yards wide, doing fin testing so I didn't have a leash on. Fell off the back of my Blackfish and kicked it away from me. I had to swim about 15 yards in cold water wearing short and a T-shirt. It wasn't easy. I thought "If I drown doing this I'll never live it down" which made me laugh so hard I swallowed a bunch of goose-poop infused water.
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: stoneaxe on June 05, 2017, 02:53:58 PM
Started another thread but should have gone here.
http://mauinow.com/2017/06/05/woman-rescued-offshore-at-kuau-during-sup-downwind-run/
Title: Re: Leash Use.
Post by: Bean on June 05, 2017, 04:55:56 PM
I keep thinking it would be nice to lose the leash once in a while...then reality strikes.  Glad there was a happy ending, thanks for the lesson.
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