Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Downwind and Racing => Topic started by: blueplanetsurf on August 15, 2015, 02:05:44 AM
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These are the most common mistakes I see when I coach paddlers on their first downwinder:
1) Paddling too much at a steady pace
2) Not paddling at the right time
3) Not using the paddle to brace
4) Not using the right board
5) Not standing in the right place
Feel free to add more mistakes/ tips
I made two videos covering these mistakes and how to fix them- top is the abbreviated version and second is the full version, I hope it helps more paddlers get into downwinders!
https://youtu.be/iBtbti-MsAg
https://youtu.be/iduGEB1OXzI
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Good video! The only thing I might add about the first one - paddling too much at a steady pace - is that it depends on your conditions. I got my son out for the first time paddling DW, and we were on our local river which is wide with about a 5 km fetch in maybe 12 to 15 knots. Which means you could catch bumps, but they were small. I had to get him to paddle a bit more and generally keep his speed up. On small waves you're only in the sweet spot for catching them for a very short time. If your timing is a bit off and/or you have to accelerate more from a slow speed, and it you're not a good strong paddler, waves will pass you by. For sure you still have to sprint to catch them, but it seems a little speed is your friend on the small stuff. He found out it's still a workout, and not a free ride!
Peter
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Great vid Rob.. I agree 100% and couldn't have said it better myself.. But there are plenty of other common mistakes so I'll add a few more.. Don't look back.. It's like you said.. It's about getting behind a big wave in front not surfing a wave that's coming from behind.. Also.. Keep your head up and don't look down at the nose of your board or the water just in front of your board.. Try and line things up that are further ahead.. Also.. Bumps are often in sets of two or three and sometimes even four.. The place to be is right behind the last bump rather that in front or behind the first.. I find that most people stand too far back while trying to catch bumps and wonder why they can't catch them.. Being forward will catch more but you need to be ready to move back quick once it's caught.. and on most boards that moving forward and back can feel like an accelerator pedal.. Moving forward and back requires a non parallel stance.. The more you get one foot in front of the other the easier it is to move forward and back.. Most people get locked into their parrallel stance way too much.. One last thing to add.. Think more ahead and hold your line to the distance or finishing point rather than just head where the waves or wind takes you.. It's best to prevent getting into trouble rather than getting yourself out of trouble if you find yourself way off corse.. I also find most people paddle way too much.. Always wear a leash.. :)
Check out the beginning of this vid (once I'm paddling) and see my friend Ann way off in the distance.. Watch how little I try and paddle to get across to her.. At times I go to take a stroke and think.. No.. I don't need to.. Doing this lets you concentrate on gliding and board trim rather than just paddling.. I hope others add more.. There are heaps more.. :)
http://vimeo.com/135635275
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oops.. double post..
Having the wrong board is a good one.. I've had people want to come on a DWer with us and they want to use their 10' inflatable.. That's not going to work.. 8)
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Hey DavidJohn...
Just found your downwind videos on Vimeo this past week and love them. Wow! You all sure do have some fun down there! Great viewing while waiting for winds to pick up on Lake Michigan in the Midwest and the Chesapeake Bay over on the east coast where I am moving (back home) next week.
And to BPS...Have been a big fan of Blue Planet since I saw them at Walk on Water in Ocean City, Maryland!!
Fall is when the winds pick up on the bay so all videos are good fuel!!
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I learned a lot here.
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Great post Robert! I'd say one of the top mistakes is staying in flat water stance and not moving back and forth. For people not coming from a surfing background, I think this is the hardest thing to get used to. To paraphrase DJ, its all about knowing when to tap the gas and when to tap the brake; i.e. trim forwards or aft. Footwork is at least as important as paddle work.
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Having the wrong board is a good one.. I've had people want to come on a DWer with us and they want to use their 10' inflatable.. That's not going to work.. 8)
Robert, that is a great video, and hits the major points
DJ, I agree the right board makes a huge amount of difference starting out. Although I will take people out on our mini downwind run on whatever board they have, and then swap with them so they get to use a downwind specific board (usually my SIC Bullet 14v1 TWC) and can experience how much better it is. That has meant I've paddled a few crazy boards (including 10' iSUPs) on downwind runs, and it's actually quite fun now and again.
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Footwork is at least as important as paddle work.
Completely agree, and it was DJ who pointed this out to me a while back. The main issue when you are learning downwinding if you are not a surfer is you spend all your time concentrating on paddling and timing the paddling to catch bumps, and the feet get left behind. Then when you master the paddling part of it, I find you forget entirely about the paddling part, and it's all about the foot work and feeling the board, the glide and where you need to be on it, just like it is surfing. It's the hardest part of the equation to master for the non surfer, but forcing yourself into surf stance even if it is just slightly staggered to start with, pays huge dividends later.
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Another big common mistake is going out in conditions that are too windy and rough for the ability of the rider.
Better less windy and calmer until the beginner is able to stand and paddle ok. Some are very surprised at the difficulty switching from flat water as they realize in short order that DW requires a different skill set. A beginner in the water too many times and possibly hurting themselves cracking a rib from a fall on a board are situations you want to avoid. Sometimes it is even better for a beginner to practice doing easy out and backs so they can learn the nuances of staying in control on a wave in more safer predictable conditions. When they get tired they can sit and rest -> then just head back to their starting point. No shuttle - easy peasy in conditions they feel comfortable in.
A beginner one time wanted to do a 7 mile run into Squamish as he thought it would be easy and relatively straightforward for him. Conditions starting out were fairly calm - but after about a mile the wind started to pick up and wind swell and whitecaps started to form. Could see he was having a lot of trouble staying upright so I offered to swap my wider and more stable board. He thought it was ok on his board and as can happen entering Squamish it was really rocking and rolling entering the river. Since then - that paddler has not returned for another DW run.
So be very cognizant that conditions can change from docile to a bit windy and gnarly in a very short time depending where you paddle. Better less windy and less choppy for a beginner until their balance skills improve. ;)
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Very cool Video Robert, I wish I had that when I was starting. Now do one for more advanced downwinding.
You hint at following the energy, but it might be a good lesson for your next video. Reading the water, finding where the energy is going and following it, and when you drop into a big wave, looking ahead to find the way out without punching the nose in.
Jeremy differentiates between turning and banking, which I think is a good way to describe carving across the face of a wave. Countersteering to keep from rounding up in big swells, etc.
I like the explanation of following the bump that rolled under you, as if the bump were drawing you along. It's not really, but it's a good illustration. You're really in the trough between two waves and the rear peak plus wind pressure on your body plus paddling is giving you the energy. Short period wind swell looks more like a divot than the longer period ground swells do, and the divot has a leading and trailing edge. When we connect swells we're leaving the trailing edge and advancing to the leading edge of the divot we start in. Most of the wind swell we ride probably moves at about 10-15 MPH depending on size, and has a period of 1-2 seconds which means the wave peaks are 14 to 30 feet apart. Hence the "divot". The big guys that roll under us at Maliko have much longer periods, more in the range of 7 to 10 seconds and are going 15-20 mph so the peaks are roughly 400-600 feet apart, so a huge swell rolling under you doesn't mean there's one right behind you--though its out there. Dah Dum... ...Da Dum.... Da Dum...
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oops.. double post..
Having the wrong board is a good one.. I've had people want to come on a DWer with us and they want to use their 10' inflatable.. That's not going to work.. 8)
Been there. Said that. Ended up riding the damn thing the last 3/4's of the run.
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Thank you for the input, keep those tips coming.
DJ, that video section of you catching up to your friend Ann without barely taking a stroke is a great illustration of how it's often not about paddling but more about timing and trim.
Bill, I like what you said about Jermey talking about turning vs. banking.
I thought about including something about rail steering but I find first timers find that concept very confusing. It's very common for first timers to lean on a rail and don't expect the board to turn away from underneath them. The board turns and they keep going straight- into the water. It's important to learn to anticipate the rail steering and use it to your advantage.
Banking- if you stand close to the center of the board at medium speeds you can use rail steering and steering strokes to bank into a turn-i.e. lean on the left rail to turn to the right.
Turning- if you are standing further back on the board at higher speeds you can turn the board like when you are surfing- leaning into the turn onto the inside rail will make your board turn off the tail.
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It's very common for first timers to lean on a rail and don't expect the board to turn away from underneath them. The board turns and they keep going straight- into the water.
Check - done that a few times
Banking- if you stand close to the center of the board at medium speeds you can use rail steering and steering strokes to bank into a turn-i.e. lean on the left rail to turn to the right.
Check - I am working on that and I have found the Aercor fin to be of help
Turning- if you are standing further back on the board at higher speeds you can turn the board like when you are surfing- leaning into the turn onto the inside rail will make your board turn off the tail.
On my bucket list - I have not managed yet to be planing often enough and fast enough to practice with any consistency
Thanks for the videos Robert, I also really liked the old one in a previous series with the hand-drawn sketches showing the bumps and where to be and paddle.
Cheers,
Luc
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Going to have a good look at these. A few of us did our first "proper" downwinder today with the wind probably getting close to 20 mph at times. I got a few glides but very short. I was just too knackered to paddle hard. There were bumps but just not getting them. I think it was a bit choppy but when the wind picked up it became easier. It was a 10 km stretch and that was enough for me. Two things I know I was doing wrong...paddling all the time and looking at the nose of the board. Stil loved it.
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Slightly confused over the standing further back.....am I right in saying stand a little forward to catch ( smaller bumps) but then back off further on the board? Not stand slightly further back from the handle all the time?
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Great video Robert! Thanks for sharing. The other videos you made a while back I found very helpful also, especially when trying to understand when to paddle. Love to see more videos with advanced moves.
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Slightly confused over the standing further back.....am I right in saying stand a little forward to catch ( smaller bumps) but then back off further on the board? Not stand slightly further back from the handle all the time?
I have found that standing more forward in smaller bumps helps me catch the little ones, and then moving back a little once I have caught it keeps me in the sweet spot of the bump and maintain momentum.
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Slightly confused over the standing further back.....am I right in saying stand a little forward to catch ( smaller bumps) but then back off further on the board? Not stand slightly further back from the handle all the time?
I have found that standing more forward in smaller bumps helps me catch the little ones, and then moving back a little once I have caught it keeps me in the sweet spot of the bump and maintain momentum.
Thanks...that is what I thought is the best.
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Slightly confused over the standing further back.....am I right in saying stand a little forward to catch ( smaller bumps) but then back off further on the board? Not stand slightly further back from the handle all the time?
I'm no expert but I think one of the reasons you stand further back is just to keep the nose from pearling into the wave ahead. That's why footwork is so important because you need to be constantly trimming the board.
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Great vids Robert....really useful
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I agree that starting forward and moving back as the wave behind you picks of the tail and begins accelerating you is true most of the time. Where you stand on different boards is dependent on the board and your weight and balance. For example, if I was paddling a raceboard on a downwinder, I'd stand behind the handle most of the time, even though on flat water, it might be more efficient to be further forward.
My .02 cents is that it is almost always better and faster to angle to the right or left across the face of the waves you catch. This will lead you from the peak of one wave to the shoulder of the next wave and a few paddle stroke take you to the peak of that wave. You do not have to get as sideways as you would surfing, but even a slight right or left across the face and down at the same time allows you to stay with the wave train and link your glides.
I've given away too much already. Forget all of it.
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Down and straight works to build enough speed -> then switch to down and across for the swell ahead. Repeat down and across and link as many as possible -> keep eyes focused ahead to stay in the power groove when the next wave builds left or right.
Do not fight the swell - and go left or right following the power. Glance at the tip to help gauge a fast trim for each wave - and adjust forward or back. Shift a bit left or right to stay right in the sweet spot power band. A zig-zag line down a run is often faster than trying to go straight.
Here is an additional video from JR to help beginners visualize what to do on a DW run to avoid mistakes. ;)
http://youtu.be/7vFKZKqOm58
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For those in small waves where you are trying to not plant the nose into the wave ahead, you might find angling the board is a little tricky because if or when the nose does catch it is more likely to throw you off to the side a bit. But sometime on those I have to move a long way back on the board of they're steep and close together but still fairly small. I'm not talking about most Gorge or Maui conditions, but smaller conditions that many of us get at home.
Some may know this, but here's a little background on wind waves from someone who's taken a Masters level oceanography course called "Water Waves". Small wind generated waves in deep water are different than bigger waves breaking in shallow water. For deep water waves where they are not "feeling bottom", the wave energy moves at half the speed of the individual waves. For this reason the waves at the front of a set will fade out, and the wave following the set which was quite small will become a big wave. This is why when you are paddling you spot waves that are ahead of you, and catch them up from behind. A wave that is small and smooth behind a bigger set will get that slower moving wave energy and become a bigger wave. You'll catch the last wave in the set and end up eventually at the front of a multi-wave set. With luck you carry off it with some speed and line up onto the back of another set. This is why looking behind you for waves is useless unless you then stop and allow it to pass you by. This also works with boat wakes for those in flat areas. Catch the boat wake from behind or let it pass you by before you catch it.
For those of us coming from windsurfing and kiting background, this also explains why in these wind waves (not surf) the nice steep ramp is the next wave back behind the whitecap that just broke.
I've never been in big ocean waves on a SUP (other than near shore in surf). It's possible that the long period swells on the outside in deeper water are feeling bottom in deep water, so they may not behave the same way as the smaller wind waves in deep water.
Peter
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For those in small waves where you are trying to not plant the nose into the wave ahead, you might find angling the board is a little tricky because if or when the nose does catch it is more likely to throw you off to the side a bit. But sometime on those I have to move a long way back on the board of they're steep and close together but still fairly small. I'm not talking about most Gorge or Maui conditions, but smaller conditions that many of us get at home.
Some may know this, but here's a little background on wind waves from someone who's taken a Masters level oceanography course called "Water Waves". Small wind generated waves in deep water are different than bigger waves breaking in shallow water. For deep water waves where they are not "feeling bottom", the wave energy moves at half the speed of the individual waves. For this reason the waves at the front of a set will fade out, and the wave following the set which was quite small will become a big wave. This is why when you are paddling you spot waves that are ahead of you, and catch them up from behind. A wave that is small and smooth behind a bigger set will get that slower moving wave energy and become a bigger wave. You'll catch the last wave in the set and end up eventually at the front of a multi-wave set. With luck you carry off it with some speed and line up onto the back of another set. This is why looking behind you for waves is useless unless you then stop and allow it to pass you by. This also works with boat wakes for those in flat areas. Catch the boat wake from behind or let it pass you by before you catch it.
For those of us coming from windsurfing and kiting background, this also explains why in these wind waves (not surf) the nice steep ramp is the next wave back behind the whitecap that just broke.
I've never been in big ocean waves on a SUP (other than near shore in surf). It's possible that the long period swells on the outside in deeper water are feeling bottom in deep water, so they may not behave the same way as the smaller wind waves in deep water.
Peter
Well said.. I've always found this hard to explain.
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For those in small waves where you are trying to not plant the nose into the wave ahead, you might find angling the board is a little tricky because if or when the nose does catch it is more likely to throw you off to the side a bit. But sometime on those I have to move a long way back on the board of they're steep and close together but still fairly small. I'm not talking about most Gorge or Maui conditions, but smaller conditions that many of us get at home.
Some may know this, but here's a little background on wind waves from someone who's taken a Masters level oceanography course called "Water Waves". Small wind generated waves in deep water are different than bigger waves breaking in shallow water. For deep water waves where they are not "feeling bottom", the wave energy moves at half the speed of the individual waves. For this reason the waves at the front of a set will fade out, and the wave following the set which was quite small will become a big wave. This is why when you are paddling you spot waves that are ahead of you, and catch them up from behind. A wave that is small and smooth behind a bigger set will get that slower moving wave energy and become a bigger wave. You'll catch the last wave in the set and end up eventually at the front of a multi-wave set. With luck you carry off it with some speed and line up onto the back of another set. This is why looking behind you for waves is useless unless you then stop and allow it to pass you by. This also works with boat wakes for those in flat areas. Catch the boat wake from behind or let it pass you by before you catch it.
For those of us coming from windsurfing and kiting background, this also explains why in these wind waves (not surf) the nice steep ramp is the next wave back behind the whitecap that just broke.
I've never been in big ocean waves on a SUP (other than near shore in surf). It's possible that the long period swells on the outside in deeper water are feeling bottom in deep water, so they may not behave the same way as the smaller wind waves in deep water.
Peter
V interesting...thanks for explaining.
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Sounds like you are talking about wave trains. The energy-conserving way that longer period wave trains travel long distances in deep water is somewhat as you describe, but I don't know what the rest of your notion is about. Doesn't matter too much since the wind waves we are generally riding are short periods waves in intermediate or shallow water. The wavelengths, and therefore the speed of the waves, is varied and wave trains and sets don't form.
You don't get those kind of ordered formations until a considerable distance is traveled from the wave source and the chaotic mixed wavelength waves separate because longer wavelength swells travel faster. The swells form up into trains reinforcing each other harmonically. But that doesn't have anything to do with the kind of swells we're interested in.
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Pretty awesome (and not at all unexpected on this forum) that a superb primer on skills for beginners would rapidly evolve into a discussion about relatively advanced skills and open ocean wave physics. I have taken some extremely athletic people out for their first downwinders. All returned to shore safely. Most managed to get a few decent glides (by accident) and become addicted to the sport. None had the foggiest notion about carving and angling right and left, or good timing. These skills come much later even for natural athletes.
My 2 cents on the perfect ingredients for a first time run: short course (<3 miles), real wind (>20 mph: down breezing is not addictive and does not sell the sport), very stable DW board (29" Glide, F14 or the like), huge emphasis on safety, and beer at the end.
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One tip I give students when explaining how to time your paddlestroke, is to never paddle uphill - try and get a feel for the tail of the board getting lifted up and use that as a cue to put power in the paddlestroke. If the paddlestroke feels heavy, you are paddling uphill - if the paddlestroke feels light you are paddling downhill and not wasting energy. You will never catch a bump while board is sliding down the back of the wave in front (with nose up) so waiting for the lift to put the hammer down also teaches you to find the rhythm of when to paddle.
I also experience a lot of pretty decent wave-sup paddlers taking up downwinding have terrible paddling technique and I always find a flatwater paddlestroke technique lesson will improve the ability to catch bumps dramatically.
On the boards we use (Naish Glides/Javs) I always tell my students that they must be as far forward as they can without the nose ever digging in - water must always pass under the nose - not over it. This means only stepping back when nose starts pearling (or learning to anticipate this) and stepping back a split second before it does.
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Great videos !
Couple of things that I would like to add to common mistakes.
Hopefully, this will get beginners to catch more bumps, and to last a lot longer on the water.
Sprinting to catch bumps
People need to work on their sprints. They should be short and powerful. A common mistake is perhaps sprinting, and then sprinting some more - before over exhausting yourself. I recommend practicing powerful sprints (3 to 7 strokes) and then getting into a smooth rhythm again… repeat every 20 seconds.
Breathing between sets
Everyone needs to catch their breath. Learning to relax and resting between sprints is something everyone can learn.
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Great post and videos Robert! I have done a downwinder yet, but that definitely will help!
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My 2 cents on the perfect ingredients for a first time run: short course (<3 miles), real wind (>20 mph: down breezing is not addictive and does not sell the sport), very stable DW board (29" Glide, F14 or the like), huge emphasis on safety, and beer at the end.
Spot on.
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Yes. And you might also add not standing period because too narrow a board. Took a first timer from Maliko today. He told me he had tons of experience at home on fairly narrow 26" race boards. He wanted to rent a Bullet 17 and I wanted him to get a 30" wide. We settled on a F-16, which is fairly forgiving but still didn't pan out for him. He stood a little paddling out of the gulch and that was it. As soon as we hit the wind line it was Pocohantas all the way. Wasn't the first time I've seen this and try as I could, I couldn't convince him to ride a wider board.
But he realized he had let his ego get the best of him and although he was on his knees the whole time, he did catch some glides and had a remarkably great sense of humor about it all. At the end he told me it was one of the coolest things he had done. So we all set bars as to what works and for some it doesn't take much. It was a great day so even on his knees we got down the coast fairly quick. I took the time to focus on steering and catching glides without paddling, which was pretty damn fun as well.
But note to others. If you come here to Maui and don't have some downwind time in the saddle (anywhere will do really), please check your egos about board width at the door if you have expectations of standing up for the run. Even though it's downwind, the surface heaves around in a heavy handed manner. Today had the added extra of Portuguese man of war. The first timer didn't get stung and he was in the water plenty. I got hit in the ankle sticking my feet in to slow the board waiting for him.
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I don't want to drag this off topic but PB, a "deep water wave" is when the wave length is less than one half the water depth. Looking at the Hatchery (the Gorge) aerial in Google I can measure the peak to peak wavelength at 50 feet (nice!) so water needs to be at least 25 feet for waves to behave like deep water waves. On the Oregon side where water is shallower, outside of the channel you might not have deep water waves sometimes. I did refer to the word "set" but I'm not referring to that in the context of "swell" which is when waves travel away from where the wind is creating them. I just was referring to the fact that often on wind waves there is more than one big one, there might be a few in a row, but I did not mean to suggest that those are the same as swell from a long way away.
The energy of larger waves does travel at less than the speed of the actual wave in deep water. You might never get the right conditions to test this on Maui, but wait for one of those super glassy windless days at the Gorge and look at what motorboat wakes do. Ideally do it on the sup of course :) You can't stay on the same wave (wake) out in the deeper water on the river, but maybe over a sandbar if the depth stays knee deep so the wave is not quite breaking you'll find that you will no longer end up ahead of the wave, since the wave will become a shallow water wave. The shallow water wave moves slower and gets closer together and steeper. The speed of the wave is then similar to the speed of the wave energy.
Here's a big more on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispersion_(water_waves) scroll down to the section titled "group Velocity".
I'm sure my old bearded Birkenstock-wearing oceanography prof would correct some of my rusty terminology, but hopefully that has not led to the confusion.
Peter
****EDIT*** Wait, I see PB and I are closer together than I thought we were. Looking at that Wikipedia page, the section further down on "multi-component wave patterns" has a graphic on the right which illustrates how the waves behave. The energy of the larger wave is moving slower than the actual wave, and you can see how this is coming from interference. Very good graphic!
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My 2 cents on the perfect ingredients for a first time run: short course (<3 miles), real wind (>20 mph: down breezing is not addictive and does not sell the sport), very stable DW board (29" Glide, F14 or the like), huge emphasis on safety, and beer at the end.
Completely agree with you BC. Most of us commenting on this subject have had downwind experience and / or have taught people to SUP in various conditions including downwinding. I find that if newbies feel safe then it makes a HUGE difference.
I always check everyone's gear, and make sure each person has a bright coloured top and a PFD/ lifejacket, whistle and good leash. We also go through the drill for what to do if they are in trouble. Firstly they can always kneel on their board and paddle. We have two signals: Waving the paddle in the air, is for "I need assistance" and waving their hand is "I am okay". I've paddled with people who have freaked out when the wind has picked up or they have fallen off a lot, and I've found if they have the right safety gear, and know what to do, that it's a lot more manageable for them and myself. Usually I take 1 or max 2 newbies out at a time, and stay at the back of them, and then speed past them, stop and get them to stop when I stop. This can be as short as 500m / 550 yards at a time. I'll use these stops to say things like "Isn't this awesome!!" but mainly I check on their condition, both physically and mentally, and give a bit of coaching. If I feel they are okay, then I'll let them go further the next time. Usually after two of these 2km / 1.5mile runs, they are good enough to go on their own (with a buddy of course).
SUP is one of the fastest sports to learn, and as Headmount says, if you start on the right sized board downwinding, you can get gliding and catching runners on your first outing and progress swiftly. Sure if you are lucky enough to be able to get your hands on a SIC F14 to start out on, do. But if not, and you have access to any wide stable surf style board, this can still be sufficient to give you a good safe taste of downwinding.
The board below is 10'8" x 36" wide and is an inflatable.. Okay purists I know I know I know.. it's not a downwind board and you're not going to use this as a downwind board, but this was this guy's first time downwinding having paddled probably less than 10 times in the last 3 years, there were no other options available, and 1/2 way through the run, I swapped with him onto my 14' x 26" board, and he managed to make the transition and catch some real glides.
I admit, if I'd had an SIC F14, of course, he'd have gone on that, and he would have had a way better experience..
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Let's take this waves theory elsewhere. I'm sure I have some misconceptions about how this works since I'm self-taught about most things.
How about here: http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,27961.0.html
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Yes. And you might also add not standing period because too narrow a board. Took a first timer from Maliko today. He told me he had tons of experience at home on fairly narrow 26" race boards. He wanted to rent a Bullet 17 and I wanted him to get a 30" wide. We settled on a F-16, which is fairly forgiving but still didn't pan out for him. He stood a little paddling out of the gulch and that was it. As soon as we hit the wind line it was Pocohantas all the way. Wasn't the first time I've seen this and try as I could, I couldn't convince him to ride a wider board.
But he realized he had let his ego get the best of him and although he was on his knees the whole time, he did catch some glides and had a remarkably great sense of humor about it all. At the end he told me it was one of the coolest things he had done. So we all set bars as to what works and for some it doesn't take much. It was a great day so even on his knees we got down the coast fairly quick. I took the time to focus on steering and catching glides without paddling, which was pretty damn fun as well.
But note to others. If you come here to Maui and don't have some downwind time in the saddle (anywhere will do really), please check your egos about board width at the door if you have expectations of standing up for the run. Even though it's downwind, the surface heaves around in a heavy handed manner. Today had the added extra of Portuguese man of war. The first timer didn't get stung and he was in the water plenty. I got hit in the ankle sticking my feet in to slow the board waiting for him.
I have had this same scenario happen a few times. Now when a first timer insists on a narrow performance board based on their flatwater racing experience, I often just let them take it and I will use the wider one that they should have picked myself and then switch boards with them as soon as we get in the rougher water and they finally realize the board is too tippy for them.
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Most definitely wider is better for first timers.
Have seen many times that even using F14s in just 10 kts is still not enough stability. Going in over and over is not really fun - especially if one gets banged up going down. Staying dry is always good. :)
http://www.spc.noaa.gov/faq/tornado/beaufort.html
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I don't teach anyone, and don't guide--as HM knows I don't have anything approaching the kind of patience required, and my concentration is fleeting--I'd be off picking daisies when the newb wandered into outer Baldwin. But I did recently swap boards in sort of reverse of what Robert suggests, letting a relative newcomer try my Bullet when they inferred that the difference in speed between us was solely a result of my board vs. theirs. A cruel joke since Bullet V1 17's have a nasty learning curve, exacerbated by the fact that he was entirely correct, though it would be hard for him to realize that when he was laying in the water holding his shin.
Oh, wait, I did that with my brother too. I can be a mean bastard.
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I don't teach anyone, and don't guide--as HM knows I don't have anything approaching the kind of patience required, and my concentration is fleeting--I'd be off picking daisies when the newb wandered into outer Baldwin. But I did recently swap boards in sort of reverse of what Robert suggests, letting a relative newcomer try my Bullet when they inferred that the difference in speed between us was solely a result of my board vs. theirs. A cruel joke since Bullet V1 17's have a nasty learning curve, exacerbated by the fact that he was entirely correct, though it would be hard for him to realize that when he was laying in the water holding his shin.
Oh, wait, I did that with my brother too. I can be a mean bastard.
;D ;D
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One tip I give students when explaining how to time your paddlestroke, is to never paddle uphill - try and get a feel for the tail of the board getting lifted up and use that as a cue to put power in the paddlestroke. If the paddlestroke feels heavy, you are paddling uphill - if the paddlestroke feels light you are paddling downhill and not wasting energy. You will never catch a bump while board is sliding down the back of the wave in front (with nose up) so waiting for the lift to put the hammer down also teaches you to find the rhythm of when to paddle.
I also experience a lot of pretty decent wave-sup paddlers taking up downwinding have terrible paddling technique and I always find a flatwater paddlestroke technique lesson will improve the ability to catch bumps dramatically.
On the boards we use (Naish Glides/Javs) I always tell my students that they must be as far forward as they can without the nose ever digging in - water must always pass under the nose - not over it. This means only stepping back when nose starts pearling (or learning to anticipate this) and stepping back a split second before it does.
I agree mostly but I tell paddlers to anticipate the next bump and start paddling earlier, before the tail lifts up and then stop paddling and let it glide when the tail lifts up. Basically paddling into the back of the wave in front of you as soon as it passes underneath when the nose is still up- start early and stop early. If you wait until the tail lifts and then paddle, you often end up working too hard to chase after the bump and then don't have the strength needed to get into the next one.
I also find it easier to get glides by keeping the weight a little further back. It seems easier to get some push from the bumps when you keep the weight forward but it also keeps the board from lifting and getting on a plane to get the faster, longer rides you really want. Also I don't have to shift my feet around for every little bump, only the bigger ones. That's just what works for me and keeping the weight more forward might work better for others and for different boards.
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Well done Robert. I think mistake #1 should be choosing the wrong board though. Despite my experience I struggled the last time on Maui and that was just south side. Started out trying to use Bill's Bullet and it felt OK at 1st but once we got into the bumps I was having problems staying standing. Switched to headmounts old board which was much more like my Vec and it was far better though still not perfect.
The wrong board makes all the other mistakes happen more often and amplifies them.
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One tip I give students when explaining how to time your paddlestroke, is to never paddle uphill - try and get a feel for the tail of the board getting lifted up and use that as a cue to put power in the paddlestroke. If the paddlestroke feels heavy, you are paddling uphill - if the paddlestroke feels light you are paddling downhill and not wasting energy. You will never catch a bump while board is sliding down the back of the wave in front (with nose up) so waiting for the lift to put the hammer down also teaches you to find the rhythm of when to paddle.
I also experience a lot of pretty decent wave-sup paddlers taking up downwinding have terrible paddling technique and I always find a flatwater paddlestroke technique lesson will improve the ability to catch bumps dramatically.
On the boards we use (Naish Glides/Javs) I always tell my students that they must be as far forward as they can without the nose ever digging in - water must always pass under the nose - not over it. This means only stepping back when nose starts pearling (or learning to anticipate this) and stepping back a split second before it does.
I agree mostly but I tell paddlers to anticipate the next bump and start paddling earlier, before the tail lifts up and then stop paddling and let it glide when the tail lifts up. Basically paddling into the back of the wave in front of you as soon as it passes underneath when the nose is still up- start early and stop early. If you wait until the tail lifts and then paddle, you often end up working too hard to chase after the bump and then don't have the strength needed to get into the next one.
I also find it easier to get glides by keeping the weight a little further back. It seems easier to get some push from the bumps when you keep the weight forward but it also keeps the board from lifting and getting on a plane to get the faster, longer rides you really want. Also I don't have to shift my feet around for every little bump, only the bigger ones. That's just what works for me and keeping the weight more forward might work better for others and for different boards.
I agree Robert.. I no longer agree with the whole don't paddle up hill thing.. You can see me at the 1.30 mark in this vid I'm paddling up hill.. or with the nose pointed up..
http://vimeo.com/136176646
We used to try and do the one or two stroke take offs but we miss many good waves doing this because we don't have enough base-speed..
We used to paddle beside DW newbies and say stop paddling.. wait.. wait.. and just at the right moment say.. now. paddle now.. Occasionly they'd get it but most times not because they'd be a split second too late.. Now I tell then to start paddling while their nose is pointed up and dropping down the back of the wave in front so they have more base-speed for that right moment for when the nose is pointed downhill..
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I've taken a short segment paddling a downbreezer to expand on DJ's comment about paddling "uphill" and not waiting for the tail to lift before making the first paddle plant when transitioning from one glide to the next. You'll see in the slo-mo replay that the first paddle plant is when board is effectively stalled and tail is down and nose is UP. The 2nd paddle plant (very shortly afterwards), is when the tail lifts and the nose is pointing DOWNHILL, and the third (if needed) is when I'm on the glide.
https://youtu.be/RvvwtCvfL38
When you get the timing right you sometimes only need the first paddle plant. I call this the "pole vault" plant, and it is very satisfying when it works as you come off one glide and with one stroke you launch yourself into the next. Of course the aim is to link one glide with the next without planting a paddle between them, but in reality, especially when starting out, linking paddle work is needed..
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I've taken a short segment paddling a downbreezer to expand on DJ's comment about paddling "uphill" and not waiting for the tail to lift before making the first paddle plant when transitioning from one glide to the next. You'll see in the slo-mo replay that the first paddle plant is when board is effectively stalled and tail is down and nose is UP. The 2nd paddle plant (very shortly afterwards), is when the tail lifts and the nose is pointing DOWNHILL, and the third (if needed) is when I'm on the glide.
https://youtu.be/RvvwtCvfL38
When you get the timing right you sometimes only need the first paddle plant. I call this the "pole vault" plant, and it is very satisfying when it works as you come off one glide and with one stroke you launch yourself into the next. Of course the aim is to link one glide with the next without planting a paddle between them, but in reality, especially when starting out, linking paddle work is needed..
Nice illustrative video.
Cheers,
Luc
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Well done Off Shore, thanks.
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My 2 cents on the perfect ingredients for a first time run: short course (<3 miles), real wind (>20 mph: down breezing is not addictive and does not sell the sport), very stable DW board (29” Glide, F14 or the like), huge emphasis on safety, and beer at the end.
Completely agree with you BC. Most of us commenting on this subject have had downwind experience and / or have taught people to SUP in various conditions including down winding. I find that if newbies feel safe then it makes a HUGE difference.
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And then there are assholes like me who take total nOObs out for 10-15 Mile downwinders…
There are two benefits to that, well three.
1. Our longer DW are almost perfectly in line with the wind. Taking the shorter one ends up mostly being just a bit too much sideways for a beginner to handle. Better for nOObs to privilege a more in line with the wind course. Even if longer.
2. After 5 or 6 miles the nOObs get exhausted and then a funny thing happens. They get into the groove. They find the right times to paddle and stop the frenetic constant paddling. By the end of a long run they “clicked”.
3. If they survive we have a new DW addict. They might hate me for a little while until they recover but the DW addiction quickly takes over and we remain friends. The stronger the wind the better too! In truth we have a lot of excellent skiers where I live and they pick this stuff up really quickly. They all survive it very well.
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In truth we have a lot of excellent skiers where I live and they pick this stuff up really quickly. They all survive it very well.
Almost all the people I downwind with here are good skiers, snowboarders, surfers, or windsurfers and surfskiers and are used to being out in wild conditions. Makes a huge difference if they don't get scared, and have balance skills..
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Not being scared and good balance are the most important part. One of the earliest guided tours Headmount did was a guy from Alaska. Super nice guy and quite a bit of paddling experience. I went along and the conditions went from mellow to Maliko madness before we got past Baldwin. Camp One and Outer Kanaha was massive with huge windswell and groundswell. Boyum doesn't swear very often, but at one point he looked at me while I was fiddling with something and said "let's get the fuck out of here". guy fell a lot but wasn't scared at all. He had a great time. I was sweating gumdrops, some of the spots we were in were pretty critical. If the guy had panicked it would have been really bad. But he was fine.
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I agree that any downhill skier or snwbrder has a great edge on the learning curve because of their experience in focusing on surfaces and attention to fall-lines. My Canadian pal from Alberta is a great case in point.
As far as downwinders are concerned, there's no surf ones and surf oriented ones. The non surf deal is pretty damn safe. But the winter time surf deal could and has gone south. The incident PBill was talking about was like stopping on the 405 and having a discussion.
Speaking of which... has everyone seen the highway stats recently? It's thunder road out there folks. Talk about focus. Makes downwinding look like a stroll.
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Yes, skiing and especially SB helps one to quickly transition to DW. Have taught both for many years when kids were toddlers so allowed plenty of time to develop strong fundamentals like edging and unweighting going down big bump runs and waist deep pow backcountry runs. Skateboarding even more of a cross-over without being buckled in.
Was just thinking yesterday how slamming my Dominator DB in left-over slop and chop was similar to SB and skateboarding - but with tons more cardio and upper body workout.
Also concur that it does help to paddle uphill to get as close to the crest as possible before the swell drops. Not doing so reduces forward momentum and potential energy just when you need it especially in windspeeds 5-15 kts.
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The highway carnage this year is nuts. Anyone that worries about the rent collector is just not paying attention. which of course I believe is the main reason for the carnage. I guy nearly ran into me today--head on. I honked my horn. He looked up from his cell phone, turned out of my path and waved. I waved too, but I used fewer fingers. He gave me his little frowny face. I actually wanted very much to kill him, which would have added to the carnage, but in the plus column.
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Also concur that it does help to paddle uphill to get as close to the crest as possible before the swell drops. Not doing so reduces forward momentum and potential energy just when you need it especially in windspeeds 5-15 kts.
I like the way that Robert first described it in the vid at the beginning of the thread, and that is to wait for the wave to pass under you, and then allow it to drag you along. In order to catch the wave as it passes under you, it is easier and less energy to make the first paddle stroke just as the crest of the wave coming in from behind reaches the nose of your board (when it seems to be going uphill. if you wait for the tail to pop up you can still do it, but it may require more energy especially in lighter wind conditions.
If you have ever tried to catch a piece of toast out of a toaster with your thumb and forefinger when releasing the button to let the toast pop out, and catch the toast before it falls back into the toaster, you'll know that actually you have to grab at the same time as you push the button. It's too late if you wait to see the toast pop out of the toaster and you'll grab thin air while the toast falls back into the toaster... Try it..
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Haha - do not have a pop up toaster like that!
But yes timing is everything when it comes to glides. It seems our short period wind waves requires a slightly different technique than long period ground swell found in places like Hawaii. But however you can increase and maximize glides and planing the better.
Have found that by paddling more at the right time -> actually allows you to paddle a lot less the rest of the time. The extra speed gained allows easy linking of glides and planing between swells. When we luck out and our timing and technique line up - we often end up dry and fresh at the end of the run.
Best is having an ice cold beer after a DW run chilling and chatting with friends and family. :)
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I was able to put a lot of these tips into practice today. I am sure I was still paddling way too much, but the wind wasn't really ripping and I was on an 11'6" inflatable so I was still having trouble catching bumps and staying on them. Still this was one of the funnest days I have had on the water.
Went out and the wind was really light, bumps from the south were barely a foot and there were some leftovers coming from the west that were about a foot, but dying quickly. Weather and wind reports were for possible thunderstorms and wind between 5 - 15 knots. With the threat of storms I was planning for a quick paddle around and headed into the light breeze. Made it about a mile down the shoreline and the wind was starting to really pick up (probably 15 knots with gusts close to 20) so I decided I would turn back around and try to catch some bumps. Rode these bumps back passed where I initially put in, thinking that I would turn back around and do this run again, but cut back into where I was parked. Well halfway back the wind really gave me and my inflatable some problems as it seemed to have picked up again. At this point I wasn't too far passed where I had put in, so I attempted to cut a line back to my Jeep, but the wind wasn't having it and frankly I was having to much fun catching these little bumps. So I ended up cutting a line and riding the bumps about a half mile back up the beach. Carrying the board back sucked, but it was well worth it. Days like today are when I wish I had some friends to shuttle with. There is a run about 6 miles long that would have been perfect today if I knew other paddlers around my area and if I knew the conditions would be as nice as they were.
Anyway I hope my crazy report wasn't to hard to follow. I appreciate all the tips given out in this thread and can't wait to get back out in conditions like this again.
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I need to get off my ass. I've been off the river for a couple of weeks because we had the grandkids and I was getting my race car ready for last weekend. But now I'm turning my nose up at 15mph wind, which is kind of stupid. All the same, Diane will be out of town for five days so I think I'm gonna go surfing at the coast.
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I know what you mean PB. As the wind slowly tapers of for the season, I find it hard to motivate unless it's really honking. Missed the big afternoon blast Saturday because I balked at the forecast.
Was going to head to the coast today, but the stars didn't align. Looking forward to some fall swell.
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Still this was one of the funnest days I have had on the water ...
... Made it about a mile down the shoreline and the wind was starting to really pick up (probably 15 knots with gusts close to 20) so I decided I would turn back around and try to catch some bumps.
That is one of the easiest and best ways to have fun on a SUP. A little upwind then back to your starting point. We do that often as it is quick with no shuttle requirements. Once you feel comfortable on these shorter out and backs you will be ready to go on your longer runs. SUP DW is all about fun. :)
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Still this was one of the funnest days I have had on the water ...
... Made it about a mile down the shoreline and the wind was starting to really pick up (probably 15 knots with gusts close to 20) so I decided I would turn back around and try to catch some bumps.
That is one of the easiest and best ways to have fun on a SUP. A little upwind then back to your starting point. We do that often as it is quick with no shuttle requirements. Once you feel comfortable on these shorter out and backs you will be ready to go on your longer runs. SUP DW is all about fun. :)
Just wish I would've known the wind was going to pick up to the point that I would have such a struggle going back into it. Had I have known that I would've continued upwind a little further from the start and avoided my half mile walk back up the beach. It was all worth it in the end though.
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It was all worth it in the end though.
That's what matters. :)
No doubt the wind can be extremely tough to battle. We have been in similar conditions and had to do everything in our power to not get blown off course DW in storm fronts we sometimes get. Knee paddling to lower our COG is perfectly ok for us when we get huge slop and reflected chop bouncing off rocky coastline. When winds gust 20+ and you need to go upwind or even crosswind -> it can be near impossible to make any headway.
Most times now we just go upwind for 2 miles or until we tire out -> then turn around and surf as many waves as possible directly back. Normally it is not windy enough to get on plane but is fine for a bit of DB gliding fun. Best to start angling back early on so you can keep a reasonable line before you get blown past. ;)
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A good rule is to always head upwind first, because getting back in should always be easy.
Last summer the wind managed to turn on us once we got upwind so we'd have an upwind back like 70% of the time. Just unbelievable. We learned to embrace going upwind. So now I just suck it up and do it. Tick: lesson learned.
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A good rule is to always head upwind first, because getting back in should always be easy.
Last summer the wind managed to turn on us once we got upwind so we'd have an upwind back like 70% of the time. Just unbelievable. We learned to embrace going upwind. So now I just suck it up and do it. Tick: lesson learned.
+1 on always paddling upwind first. Very very occasionally though we've had the opposite occur in that we planned a one way downwinder and as we were packing up we realised the wind was shifting and we realised we could downwind back. Now that has happened probably twice in 3 years.
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Wind shifts happen quite a bit around here. Have seen some on SUPs get caught in exposed open water conditions and really struggle to get back to shore. A little picnic adventure can turn quickly turn tragic for the unaware and unprepared. Local knowledge is always helpful as well as keeping a very close eye on weather currents etc. It does not take long for wind to switch from E to W and N to S.
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In a true downwind, there is absolutely no way to paddle upwind other than to stay in the same place. I actually think this is a nice way to differentiate downwinding from down breezing.
We do have a nice little section of in West Seattle where you can ride a protected eddy against the beach upwind (even in >35 mph conditions) and then ride downwind upon reaching the point. Great practice.
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In a true downwind, there is absolutely no way to paddle upwind other than to stay in the same place. I actually think this is a nice way to differentiate downwinding from down breezing.
Completely agree. In true downwind conditions I've had to give up trying to go upwind and get to the shore and drag my board upwind along the shore. Not fun but it works. Using eddies and wind shadows near shore also helps in any upwind paddling.
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This is an older thread but I made a sequel to the "5 most common downwind mistakes" by first timers.
This one goes into more common mistakes and tips on how to avoid them.
Thanks to my customer Tom who was willing to let me use him as an example. This was filmed during his second downwind coaching session and recorded while I'm paddling behind him and his takeaways after the downwinder:
https://youtu.be/NLFR1G7QAWs
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In a true downwind, there is absolutely no way to paddle upwind other than to stay in the same place. I actually think this is a nice way to differentiate downwinding from down breezing.
We do have a nice little section of in West Seattle where you can ride a protected eddy against the beach upwind (even in >35 mph conditions) and then ride downwind upon reaching the point. Great practice.
Depends on who you are. Dave Kalama commonly upwinds on pretty crazy Maliko conditions--cranks from Kanaha to the gulch then turns around and runs back. I certainly don't, though I do a lot of upwind/downwind Viento runs. Those consist mostly of finding wind shadows along the shore and grinding in between them. Great workout.
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Thanks for sharing the video Robert!
What is the ideal wind for the Hawaii Kai run? Does more north or more east make it work better?
I'm going to be on Oahu Tues-Friday and the wind forecast shows a bit of everything. From NE Tuesday to E Wednesday, S on Thursday, and SW on Friday.
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Thanks for sharing the video Robert!
What is the ideal wind for the Hawaii Kai run? Does more north or more east make it work better?
I'm going to be on Oahu Tues-Friday and the wind forecast shows a bit of everything. From NE Tuesday to E Wednesday, S on Thursday, and SW on Friday.
Hi Digger,
Easterly tradewind direction is best for a Hawaii Kai downwind run. The variable winds we are having right now are not ideal for downwinders. A strong, easterly tradewind direction is best. We will probably do a time trial this Wednesday for our training group unless the wind stabilizes. You are welcome to join, we will post the meeting time and place tomorrow on our facebook group, just ask to join:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/downwinders/
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A few weeks ago wind guru looked like this, perfect downwind weather.
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Great videos and tips from (the other) Rob! From a safety angle, I see a lot of the following (at least here in the PNW)..
-no leash
-no pfd (or waist belts with no cartridges)
-poor choice of line (direction). recently a race board ended up on a jetty... and no backup plans.
-going out in conditions above their skill level
-not picking most qualified people to DW with (leading to board on rocks, etc) or being left behind by partners.
-knowing how to upwind and/or paddle quite a distance when the wind shifts
-no reliable communication device (and devices used by each dw buddy)
-not letting the wind give them a free ride - trying to paddle too hard
-wrong clothing for air/water temps. have seen shorts on 43F water temp days.
etc...