Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: linter on October 30, 2014, 12:27:10 PM
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well, at least that's how i feel about my shaper after getting my new supig board. i mean, really, is it that difficult to listen to what a customer wants and freaking do it?
this is the second board based on the same shape he's made for me. V1 was perfect except it weighs 33 lbs and i wanted something roughly the same but around 26 lbs or 27 lbs w/ fin and pad, which is what i told him. Also, i wanted it a little bit thinner overall. I gave him some other specs, too, about glassing schedule, use of vector net, etc.
well, he totally ignored these other specs for the first iteration of V2. he sent me pix, i told him what was wrong, he said okay he'll redo it.
so he redid it and it looked good in the photos and so i paid up and it was sent to me. I received it two days ago and the second i saw it and picked it up, my heart sank.
first, it weighs 22 lbs or, with fin and pad, 23 lbs. no no no no! i kind of figured this was going to happen, just from something he said after the board had been shipped, but i was hoping against hope i was wrong. i wasn't. crap.
and then, far from being a little thinner overall, it's ... wait for it, wait for it ... 1.5" to 2" ***thicker*** overall, with the back third of the board fat like the fat back of a waveski. see the photos. holy crap! how is this possible? wtf?
my mind is more than boggled. i just don't get it. i'm steaming mad but what can i do? he's got my money and i have a board that is not what i ordered. i mean, how'm i supposed to sink the rail/tail of a board that's over 5.5" thick, closer to 6", I bet, if my calipers opened far enough to reach the center.
i've written him an email expressing my unhappiness but haven't sent it. my heart is just too heavy right now. argggg!
in the photos, the new board is on top, the old one on the bottom.
btw / all the specs were sent to him in writing and discussed on the phone.
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Oh my God....I'm speechless....I don't even know what to say other than I'm sorry :'(
Even though I don't know what's on the letter, it's probably a good idea not to send it out when you're angry. Give yourself a while to cool down.
Is there anyway you think he'll take it back? Just be completely honest with him and tell him this is not what you agreed upon and it just won't work for you?
I hope it works out...
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Wow...that is amazing Linter.
I can understand how shocked you were/are.
I think that, especially if you gave him the specs in writing, especially about it being thinner,
and it shows up so much fatter, that he would take it back.
Definitely pursue it - yeah, but let the anger cool first.
Just show him how you spec'd it and that pic that makes it obvious something isn't right
with what you ordered and what you got.
That is amazing - wow.
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Shocked.
The longer I'm doing this, the more I'm shocked by the "old ways".
CAD, engineers, etc, if you want meticulous repeatable shapes.
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Don't wait to tell him, the board isn't as ordered. But for now, keep it basic and clean.
Yes it sucks. You want him to correct it, not tell you to go, ###***!
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You should be able to reject the board and not have to pay for it. A good shaper is like a good barber ot dentist, once you find one that works for you, stick with them. The shaper I work with puts the board into his shaping program after we decide on how it should be. We can later look at it on the computer before the blank is shaped. After he gets the blank out of the cdc machine, we can then talk about the final shaping before it gets glass.
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i've taken my letter and trimmed out all the inflammatory stuff. good advice. there still might be anger leakage in the words that i can't see but it's better than what it was.
V1 of this board was perfect but for weight, so i had no reason to expect things in V2 to go so off track. As I said, I already rejected the first iteration of V2 (it'd been shaped and glassed but not sent) and I doubt he's going to make a third one. This guy is cranky to begin with -- or at least this time around he has been -- and has complained about the time and expense of the V2 project all along the way, even though he set the price.
I am in Rhode Island, he is in Santa Barbara, so returning the thing would not be a simple matter.
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Looking at the tail, it looks like you've got a Hammer Pig on your hands.
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Looks more like a fattened up Sea Snake that a pig.
You might want to mention that you are doing research for a new article called "Shaper or CNC, where is the future for the surf industry"
I can make you a board. I read a "How to" post on it somewhere. It will be better than that.
Maybe forward a link to this thread and tell him you will start naming names.
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Have you surfed it?
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As a shaper I take offense to your title.
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Funny story about F@#W##!!!ing shapers;
When I was twelve, my best friend and I split the cost of a shaped blank ($50) that we were somehow going to glass ourselves. We hung out at the surf shop all day everyday, as little groms will do. We waited and waited. A week turned into a month and still no shaped blank. Finally Joe the shop owner said that, Kirby the shaper, finished shaping our blank and he would bring it into the shop the next morning.
My best friend and I were waiting outside as Joe pulled up to open the shop. He had bad news for us. He said Kirby the shaper, freaked out on acid (it was the summer of love and all) and shaped our finished board into a cross. He gladly refunded our 50 bucks back.
F@#W##!!!ing shapers.
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SW-- Maybe funny now. When I was about 15, I put $100 down on a board to be made by a sharper on Balboa Island CA. He made very good looking boards and had some good team riders. After too long a time, A small claim was filed. This caused the police to show up at our house. Apparently he had a few problems. Soon after the police visit, he called and said to come pick up the deposit.
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You could always saw it in two halves along the rails, re-glass the raw parts and put a pad on the bottom one, and have two boards.
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I have only shaped a few boards for people and its really not what I prefer. I don't like the uncertainty of what they want and what I think they want. Although the joy of getting it right is awesome I would much rather have them pick up a board off the shelf and then they get exactly what they get.
They don't have to pretend they love what you created for them or nothing. I wish I had the exacting skill to make replicas but then that is what machines are for.
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southwesterly: hammer pig? that's exactly what i thought when i first saw it, a hammer taken to extremes. maybe wardog should file a suit against the guy? (and they do live in the same town and know each other.) anyway, my name for it is the ultra-light fat-ass pig. not what i wanted at all.
slatchj: i rode it yesterday, at the same time i surfed the lead-weighted L41. loved the L41, couldn't really ride the ultra light fat-ass pig. will add lead to it and see if that helps me figure out how much is the fatness and how much is the lack of weight.
gorgeb: this guy has been shaping boards for at least since the very early 70s. he's known for one shape in particular, which has his name attached to it, so i'd think he knows how to make replicas. otoh, he's got to be pretty old by now, so maybe, sadly, that accounts for some of the problems i've had.
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This thread touches on a sore spot for me, so rant is on :P
When I see old time respected shapers mow foam, then take a couple of measurements here and there, I cringe. Engineers see the world differently. The old ways are not accurate enough.
When I see average Joe's tell a shaper I want this, that, and this, and the shaper says sure thing. I'll take your money. Hope you like it. I cringe.
I try to steer everyone into standard proven shapes and only allow the slightest of tweaks, if any at all. My conscious doesn't allow experiments on anyone but myself.
Same applies to construction.
But, I do have the luxury of not needing the income. It's a labor of love and fun for me.
Rant off ;D
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The solution is simple, Have Kirk weight up a simsup for you and sell the V-2 piggy at auction. Craigs list needs something that starts "One Terrific Pig" in the title.
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Not to make light of the situation, but I have to think somewhere in Africa, there's a kid who would love that board.
Or.. perhaps Terre Haute. :-X
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Linter - Completely unacceptable. Looks like he made a tandem Susquatch SUPPAPIGGY. Not exactly what you wanted.
Did you pay with a card? You did not receive what you paid for. Possible leverage in a conversation with the shaper. I am sure you have received lots of advice. The less anger you express increases your chances of him not digging in his heels.
But expressing to him clearly the ramifications and possible financial loss he will incurr if he doesn't do the right thing need to be expressed clearly.
Delta Air 99 cash american to ship from Prov to Santa B.!!
Return to sender cancel and see you in small claims court bozo!
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Not to make light of the situation, but I have to think somewhere in Africa, there's a kid who would love that board.
Or.. perhaps Terre Haute. :-X
Cool, Corn Flakes can still make it out my nose ;D
Linter, like most of us I'm sure you do not have an unlimited budget, but have you considered working with a local shaper, someone who will keep you involved in the process each step of the way?
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bean: the only local shaper i wouldn't trust, either.
like i said, the shaper made an initial stab at v2 but did it with the wrong glass and put on a vector net deck patch instead of a carbon one, etc etc. so the board i have is actually like V3.
in my email to him, i asked him if the first V2 was shaped per my specs in terms of thickness and resemblance to V1. if it was, and if he'd add another layer of glass to bring it up to the proper weight, i told him i'd take that, and live with the vector net, etc. i think that'd work ok for me. but i fully well expect him either to tell me to take a hike or to not respond at all. we shall see ....
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This is bizzare and I would def be pissed.
I would build my case with referencing previous emails and tell him it's not acceptable. Don't make it personal and take out any feeling words. Just state the facts using dates, pictures and most of all use his own words whenever possible.
At the end of the day, I assume you would not continue this relationship and just want a finished product based on your expectations and then be done with him. Thus, be kind until you can't be. If this does not work take a few days to think how you want to be viewed as a dissatisfied client and behave accordingly. Karma will take of the rest.
For the rest of us vicarious ZONERS too bad Judge Whopner is not still on tv :D
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If you're unhappy with your board and the way it was shaped blame yourself for making a poor choice of shapers.
No surfboards no surfing. No shapers, no surfboards.
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If you're unhappy with your board and the way it was shaped blame yourself for making a poor choice of shapers.
No surfboards no surfing. No shapers, no surfboards.
Ouch. This might be too simplistic. You could also say no surfers no shapers. And so on and so forth. But, as you are a shaper I could see why you might pipe up here. Im sure not all clients are great to work with.
I also agree there is always some degree of mutual blame in communication/behavior whenever a business transaction goes foul. And on a personal level, yes i would def search where i had started the ball rolling and what my part was in the process (shaper choice, communication, expectations, etc) to learn from the situation. However, this particular incident is still a definitive shaper issue assuming the OP has his facts right. A shaper can't just go ahead and make something way off the mark and expect to have a happy customer or get paid. He is in a service industry after all.
Yes, the OP would have been better served to have stated "shaper" instead of adding an "S" in the subject heading, but I don't think he is really throwing out a blanket statement about all shapers here. Merely just bringing his emotion to the table about a recent transaction with a particular shaper who did him wrong and looking for guidance on how to proceed. Of course non-shapers outnumber shapers on the Zone 100 to 1 and thus would most likely side with the OP, but I also know that Zoners are a cut above the typical forum rats and sometimes a spade is just a spade.
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Even buying something off the shelf can be daunting. Buying something before you can see it takes guts. It's an honor to be in the position in which customers/clients commit their trust and money to you without their being able to see the end product. Along with that honor comes a responsibility to listen and communicate with the customer/client. If the customer has been clear with what he or she wants, there should be no surprises at the end, because the designer should have stated why he would not be able to do--or would not recommend doing--what the customer has requested. If the customer hasn't been clear, the designer should ask for clarification before proceeding. The designer also has a responsibility to watch out for the interests of the customer, and make sure he or she understands the design before it is built, since the customer is almost always far less experienced in the process than the designer.
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well, at least that's how i feel about my shaper after getting my new supig board. i mean, really, is it that difficult to listen to what a customer wants and freaking do it?
this is the second board based on the same shape he's made for me. V1 was perfect except it weighs 33 lbs and i wanted something roughly the same but around 26 lbs or 27 lbs w/ fin and pad, which is what i told him. Also, i wanted it a little bit thinner overall. I gave him some other specs, too, about glassing schedule, use of vector net, etc.
well, he totally ignored these other specs for the first iteration of V2. he sent me pix, i told him what was wrong, he said okay he'll redo it.
so he redid it and it looked good in the photos and so i paid up and it was sent to me. I received it two days ago and the second i saw it and picked it up, my heart sank.
first, it weighs 22 lbs or, with fin and pad, 23 lbs. no no no no! i kind of figured this was going to happen, just from something he said after the board had been shipped, but i was hoping against hope i was wrong. i wasn't. crap.
and then, far from being a little thinner overall, it's ... wait for it, wait for it ... 1.5" to 2" ***thicker*** overall, with the back third of the board fat like the fat back of a waveski. see the photos. holy crap! how is this possible? wtf?
my mind is more than boggled. i just don't get it. i'm steaming mad but what can i do? he's got my money and i have a board that is not what i ordered. i mean, how'm i supposed to sink the rail/tail of a board that's over 5.5" thick, closer to 6", I bet, if my calipers opened far enough to reach the center.
i've written him an email expressing my unhappiness but haven't sent it. my heart is just too heavy right now. argggg!
in the photos, the new board is on top, the old one on the bottom.
btw / all the specs were sent to him in writing and discussed on the phone.
Oh boy ... that is not a board!
If you paid by credit card, then call the CC company and file a complaint. The payment may be reversed.
In writing to the CC company and to the shaper, you should reference the specifications and changes that were made with exhibits (original design by you, original pictures sent by shaper to you, changes that were made after you both spoke and pictures of the changed made by the shaper after the both spoke and whereby you agreed to the design). Be as clear and concise as possible in the letter. Good luck.
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Oh wow. The boards are so different. Get him to take the board back and get you money. Back. Then find a reputable shaper. You trust who can put the board on a computer and generate a 3d pict. Next tweak the pic until it is exactly as you want the shape. Then drive there and watch him shape it. Doesn't matter if it's 2-6 hours away drive there work with him till it is exactly. How you want it. I am sure you can find a shaper within that distance. Or work with some body very reputable like out west. Pm me for my suggestions if u like
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That is one fugly board.
I get TW being irritated by the headline, but A. that is one fugly board, and B. That board is fugly.
I've worked with shapers that listen to what you say and then build you what they think you need. But that board isn't even close. and did I mention that it's fugly?
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Shocked.
The longer I'm doing this, the more I'm shocked by the "old ways".
CAD, engineers, etc, if you want meticulous repeatable shapes.
I'm art trained industrial designer, but some really good design comes from people trained as "engineers" adopting design thinking.
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The only thing I would say is it's prity hard to copy a board if you don't have the board beside you to copy but still I would expect a little closer than that. I have to admit I would never get a custom board from some one that wasn't local unless it was a tried and tested design on cad. Hope you can sort something without any agro.
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If I were a shaper on this board, I would be horrified because Linter's shaper is not just scaring away his own business, he's scaring away other shapers business. Anyone fairly new to SUP/SUS who thought, "hey maybe in a few years I'll spring for a custom board" and took a look at this thread, just said, "no thanks." Even if everything works out in the end—and I really hope it does—just knowing the hassle involved makes me think I'll never bother. There's just too much that can go wrong. :(
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Good Shaper+ Good Communication= great board
Without both of those factors the outcome will be substandard.
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Even if everything works out in the end—and I really hope it does—just knowing the hassle involved makes me think I'll never bother. There's just too much that can go wrong
I love the reward of custom boards. I get emotionally attached to them. I'm a fan of the entire process--the ideas, design, recommendations, back-and-forth, anticipation, etc. If you go with a reputable shaper, I wouldn't say there is any more risk than picking the wrong production model, or getting a factory dud (especially now with the shaping machines being able to replicate tested designs so well before the shaper fine tunes them). I understand the advantages of production boards but will almost always (not always, but almost always) look to custom first.
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If you're unhappy with your board and the way it was shaped blame yourself for making a poor choice of shapers.
I respectfully disagree--with victim blaming in general, and more specifically with how it applies to linter's situation here.
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Even if everything works out in the end—and I really hope it does—just knowing the hassle involved makes me think I'll never bother. There's just too much that can go wrong
I love the reward of custom boards. I get emotionally attached to them. I'm a fan of the entire process--the ideas, design, recommendations, back-and-forth, anticipation, etc. If you go with a reputable shaper, I wouldn't say there is any more risk than picking the wrong production model, or getting a factory dud (especially now with the shaping machines being able to replicate tested designs so well before the shaper fine tunes them). I understand the advantages of production boards but will almost always (not always, but almost always) look to custom first.
Yes, this is worth it. And the customer should have a certain level of tolerance for the shaper's wisdom and creative direction. For me, the OP's board doesn't look good, so that is something else, but I don't see it as reflective of custom operations overall, at all.
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Of all my boards, including race and downwind, I think three, oops, four are production, and I've never had the problem Linter is having. True, I know these people, and true, they are close enough for me to go look at the work in progress to correct misunderstandings. But I never have. That's not just because I stayed in their wheelhouse--their comfort zone. Bill Foote has given me the beady eye more than once about what I wanted, and while he NEVER gives me exactly what I ask for he always gives me something that works better, looks amazing, and does what I had in mind. Mark Raaphorst won't make me a lightweight downwind board. And my new/old V2 Bullet 17 is going on it's third season. looking more or less like new without any holes. I want a light one, but I'm going to have to order under an assumed name to get one.
I respect their opinions and expertise, but if any of them gave me a board like that and stuck me with it I'd put my foot through it in their driveway and never darken their door again. That thing looks like the guy glassed a blank.
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It's sad to hear these kinda stories...
I think that once you start to get serious about the board sport you are involved in...and, make the decision to customize a board, rather than be force fed something designed from half way around the planet...in my mind, the first criteria would be with working with a SUP designer that is personally interested in getting you close to your original design premise...it's important to saddle up with somebody that *actually* does standup...the more the better...and,is personally vetted in the sport and lifestyle...and, paddlesurfs daily...the more the better...and, lives and breaths it...again, the more the better...and, uses a computer with modern shaping software for design accuracy and reproducible products leading to desired tweaks going forward to achieve said desired results...;-)
There must be a reason that very few of the old school surfboard shapers have been successful at transferring their surfboard shapes into SUP's...
I personally fund, and do the research...and, design testing on myself...and, my staff...before ever springing it on John Q Public...ummm...but, not every board designer does this...;-)
http://supsports.com/standup-paddle-boards/california-custom-series
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I really like custom boards and this is the first real problem I've ever had. Don't know whether Wardog's Hammers qualify as custom, but you're able to provide input to change the basic shape if you want, and he's great to work with. I loved the first one I got, which is now down in Mexico and I don't think I'll see again, sigh. The second was too light but that's through no fault of Wardog's; this was before I realized how important weight was to me, and I ordered it that way. That said, my buddy bought it from me and I might try to retrieve it and add lead to it like I'm doing with some other boards.
In the present instance, I had no reason to believe the shaper would do anything but a great job. Remember, I'd already gotten a board from him that was perfect but for actually being too heavy. (I didn't specify weight for that one.) All I wanted him to do was make a board that was 1" narrower and a little thinner and otherwise shape it like the first one. This time around, though, I had nothing but troubles almost from the start. But, like I said, I had no reason to believe that this would be the case. Why would I?
I have not heard from the guy since I wrote him Friday morning. I don't know what I'll do if he ignores me. Suggestions for a next step, anyone?
Thanks, all, for weighing in on this. It's been very trying.
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1st thing you do is name names. If he doesn't treat you with respect there is no reason for you to show him any.
And Bill is right....that is FUGLY!
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I'd say move on. It's painful to toss away bucks, but it's pointless to focus on something that's just eating you up. Especially when it's related to something you love.
That said, I did get Luxottica to replace my Ray Bans. They decided that it was true that I was going to cost them a lot more in lost business and attention to their abusive warranty policy than they would gain by screwing one more customer. I posted about my little battle with them here and in a few hundred other places. You can take a similar approach as Bob suggest, but you have to decide if it's worth it.
The other side of the coin is that your shaper did not have your old board present as a reference, and probably doesn't remember exactly what he did. I have a certain sympathy for that, I struggle to remember what I did yesterday, and my days are unique, I haven't been doing the same thing for twenty or thirty years.
I doubt you will prevail if the guy has decided to be stubborn. Too much geography to go face him and shake the board under his nose.
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This saga reminds me of the time I bought a $2500 sliding-seat rowing shell from a company half-way across the country. The deal was 30-day money back guarantee. I took delivery of the shell but was not impressed. Called to inquire about the return process. Owner of the company tried to talk me out of it, but I persisted and he gave me instructions on return shipping, which freight company to use (small-time boat hauler), etc, etc.
I painstakingly repackaged the thing in 400lbs of bubble-wrap/shrink wrap and shipped it back, at no small expense to myself. That thing could have withstood a nuclear attack. (The hauler even remarked as much at pickup time.)
Several weeks later, seller put the refund through on my creditcard -- $700 short. I called to ask why, he muttered something about phantom damage done in transit, that was my responsibility b/c the hauler he had required me to use didn't offer/provide insurance. I said bullsh*t, send me a picture? He emailed me something that might as well have been an Rohrschach inkblot. I disputed w/ my credit card company to no avail.
Yes, I was able to find the guy's home address. Yes, I had thoughts of a 20-hour rage-fueled roadtrip culminating in me setting the guy's lawn on fire.
In the end, I let it go. There is something to be said for buying local.
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bill wrote: The other side of the coin is that your shaper did not have your old board present as a reference, and probably doesn't remember exactly what he did. I have a certain sympathy for that, I struggle to remember what I did yesterday, and my days are unique, I haven't been doing the same thing for twenty or thirty years.
no, he did not have my board for reference, but he did have the specs and he did have common sense and at one point he did ask me for the fin-placement measurements, so he could have asked for others as well. i mean, just look at that board. this guy has been around for decades. would anybody in their right mind shape that? which brings me to my one great big fear: the guy is older -- how old i don't know -- and as cranky as he is, and as off and wrong and bad as that shape is -- i wonder if there's not some age-related issue at work here. maybe not, but when i think about this situation, i'm hard pressed to come up with many other explanations. and if that's the case, i would, of course, move on. if not, i'll probably stew a little bit longer, write a few more emails and then go my poorer-but-wiser way.
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Just move on and chalk it up to experience. It sounds like you're wasting a lot of energy on anger. It isn't worth it, it's just a board, nothing more.
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well, i'm actually not that angry. more like irritated and perplexed. oh, and you forgot one thing: it's only money :D.
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Yeah I hear ya. These boards are expensive. Every board has a buyer. Someone will want it and maybe even like it so all isn't lost. Focus on the next one...........
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Probably an avenue you would never explore....but, and I'm probably showing my ignorance here, would it be possible for a shaper to take off the glass and shape the board to the specs you want and then re-glass it? Probably not worth the expense, but wondering if that was possible?
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If he can't duplicate the thickness and rails, maybe he can't duplicate the rocker of the original either. Might be better off walking away from this guy.
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It could be worse--I'm amazed how many times I've seen new, expensive, architect-designed homes in magazines, then seen them quietly go up for sale a couple years later, because they just weren't really what the clients wanted. Similar process as having a custom board made, but with the time and costs multiplied by 1000x.
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It could be worse--I'm amazed how many times I've seen new, expensive, architect-designed homes in magazines, then seen them quietly go up for sale a couple years later, because they just weren't really what the clients wanted.
I build these things. The homes that get sold are usually the ultra contemporary ones. Hard lines and material. They're dramatic to look at but very hard to live in for an extended period. Kinda like having a Ferrari 438 as your Daily Driver. Sounds good but too hard to deal with over time.
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I've seen that too PDX. I recently tried to explain something like that to a young guy getting ready to buy his first house. He spouted all the common axioms, one at a time
"I'm tired of tossing my money away on rent"--really. Have you done the math? Do you prefer to toss it away on taxes, interest and maintenance?
"I need room for my boat and stuff." --I thought you were just complaining that you hadn't used your boat in a year? Storage is cheap, and you can store it cheap or free where you use it (the coast) instead of hauling it 150 miles every time.
"I'm going to buy in Washington county, I don't want to pay multnomah county taxes." -- so you're going to buy a house in neighborhood with nothing but families who have nothing in common with you, that's not convenient to work or any of the things you like, so you can save on taxes?
Pointless. I was wasting my breath. People need to make their own mistakes. Whatever he buys he'll be selling soon, for less money. Or he'll be miserable. He's not stupid--he could easily figure out a workable course that would get him what he wants. Instead he decided on a course of action and is gathering up all the arguments that "support" it.
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It could be worse--I'm amazed how many times I've seen new, expensive, architect-designed homes in magazines, then seen them quietly go up for sale a couple years later, because they just weren't really what the clients wanted.
I build these things. The homes that get sold are usually the ultra contemporary ones. Hard lines and material. They're dramatic to look at but very hard to live in for an extended period. Kinda like having a Ferrari 438 as your Daily Driver. Sounds good but too hard to deal with over time.
Interesting--I'd say exactly the same thing. It's the ultra-contemporary--and often very expensive--ones that people sell after only a couple years. When I see them being designed, I wonder where the architects are finding those clients, since most people around here are more conservative in their tastes and spending. Then I find out later on that the clients for those houses were no different, it's just that the architect imposed his own tastes on the client, and they ended up spending more money than they wanted on something much more modern than what they wanted. So the house gets built, the magazine spread and awards come out, then the clients sell the house and move into an old one with character that they can see before they buy it.
In linter's case, it seems more like a matter of the shaper not listening vs. trying to impose his tastes on the customer, but sometimes a designer can get an image in his head of what something should be prematurely, and once that image gets set in his mind, he doesn't listen carefully enough to realize that that image doesn't represent what the customer wants.
Of course there can also be cases (with the houses, but not linter) where people think they want something, until they get it. There's also the case where people think a new house, more space, etc. will solve the problems of their marriage, then when they get the exact house they want, they realize that the problem isn't what they live in, it's who they live with. Not sure how many marriages have ended from people no longer being able to blame an inadequate board, though...but there may be a few that ended because the board turned out reaaally well...
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I've seen that unfold a few times. Both the house that felt like a hotel, and the "let's build a house to save our marriage" ploy. A guy I used to work for built this place that was all jutting walls and glass. Good thing it was on acreage, because the bathrooms had floor to ceiling glass. Really. I hated to use his bathroom, I felt like I was taking a crap in a department store window, even if the only thing watching was squirrels. The edges of the rooms were freezing in the winter, the middle was hot. He spent two million dollars on an unlivable pile of concrete and granite. He and his wife moved a year after building it, because it was so far out of town it took two hours to get anything more complicated than a hot dog (out near Banks). The place was on the market for a year, finally sold for a million, and last time I drove by it, it was for sale again.
He and his wife got divorced soon after, but that was probably a good thing--she was a psycho and the main reason the place got built. She used to get depressed, fly to San Francisco and spend fifty K on clothes, and come back looking like she was an admiral in the Spanish Navy circa 1750.
So take heart Linter, at least you didn't lose a bunch of money in the stock market. Or marry a Spanish admiral.
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I say don't get too stressed out over it. Might be time to name names and move on.
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It's only money.....you'll make it up in pot stocks......;)
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bob: it was only a matter of time before someone brought that up. thanks for being the one!
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I hated to use his bathroom, I felt like I was taking a crap in a department store window, even if the only thing watching was squirrels.
No doubt eyeing up your nuts... 8)
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They say that lawyers never build custom homes. They see so many marriages fall apart over them, so many problems with contractors etc.
That seems to be true. In one of my neighborhoods, above us on the hills, we used to watch the mansions being built, and a lot of them came with divorce proceedings before they were finished.
One lady was a spendaholic interior designer. She stole her friend's husband when she was doing interior design for them. He was a wealthy tech executive. She lived in our neighborhood while she was building their "dream home" which was a gothic British like stone pile with stained glass and leaded glass windows. She spent massive amounts of money on the place, to the point where even he couldn't take it. They sold it for a fraction of what it cost to build when they divorced over it. All the tech guy got out of it was two divorces and a gothic pile he sold at a huge loss.
Another at the base by the gate was started by a surgeon. He and his wife came to blows over the place with each other and the contractor, divorced, and it remained half finished for years before somebody bought it at discount and finished it.
I am not interested in a huge home anymore. Give me a nice 2000 sq footer and my leisure time rather than being a butler of my own domain.
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Here's a nice little 13,000 footer I did for a sports legend. He lasted 3 year's in it "Tom, I just keep losing my kids in here!"
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less house=more life
or, as my friend said, after downsizing to a much smaller, new house:
I am now enjoying living IN my house, vs LIVING MY HOUSE
That said, I am freshly remarried, living in wife's huge brooklyn brownstone which needs to be gutted before anything else is done with it.
we have considered moving out, renting for a year, and doing the gut...............we know that's probably a marital test fire we shd not eagerly dive into.
fortunately we are both busy, have other properties which require attention, so we'll probably just stay there and live it.....
i have friends who blow through building house, rehabs, etc. they seem to enjoy and not be particularly stressed about it. iunlikely i can be that kind of person.
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less house=more life
or, as my friend said, after downsizing to a much smaller, new house:
I am now enjoying living IN my house, vs LIVING MY HOUSE
That said, I am freshly remarried, living in wife's huge brooklyn brownstone which needs to be gutted before anything else is done with it.
we have considered moving out, renting for a year, and doing the gut...............we know that's probably a marital test fire we shd not eagerly dive into.
fortunately we are both busy, have other properties which require attention, so we'll probably just stay there and live it.....
i have friends who blow through building house, rehabs, etc. they seem to enjoy and not be particularly stressed about it. iunlikely i can be that kind of person.
I sometimes forget how good I have it. My wife who surfs with me every week suggested we downsize from the house that easily fit our two kids and my dad to a much smaller single story for the remaining years before retirement. Her reasoning? Cheaper mortgage = more money, quicker path to retirement, more money for SUS vacations, less time cleaning house and yard, more time for surfing. Other than my natural tendency to be a land baron, I find absolutely no fault with her logic.
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I wonder if this shaper might have some people working under him? If he is busy, or trying to break some new employees in, they might have gotten your board as a project. Plus if he has a lot going on personally, he might decide your happiness is not worth his unhappiness? Its a bummer, but I agree you are best off moving on.
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Yup. I went from a custom built 5600 sq foot home on seven acres with a 1800 sq foot shop under it, four car garage, sport court with a gym, blah, blah to a 2800 sq foot house on a double lot in hood river with a one car garage. Couldn't be happier. Of course I did buy a big ass shop, but that's beside the point. If we had built a house here it would have been smaller than this one. We learned our lesson. Bigger isn't better, it's just bigger.
The ultralight airstream project I'm contemplating will build a liveable, comfortable, beautiful home in a 19 foot single axle Airstream. My goal is for it to be pulled by a target hybrid. I haven't figured out which one yet, so I don't know my weight goal. But it will be somewhere near 2000 pounds. I could live happily in something like that if the design was perfect. I've lived in a lot less.
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I really like custom boards and this is the first real problem I've ever had. Don't know whether Wardog's Hammers qualify as custom, but you're able to provide input to change the basic shape if you want, and he's great to work with. I loved the first one I got, which is now down in Mexico and I don't think I'll see again, sigh. The second was too light but that's through no fault of Wardog's; this was before I realized how important weight was to me, and I ordered it that way. That said, my buddy bought it from me and I might try to retrieve it and add lead to it like I'm doing with some other boards.
While I do have 8 very dialed in Hammer models from 7'11" to 10'6" that I have taken into production...covering most riders on the planet...we have built a number of locally made custom one-offs for our clients all over North America (and even Brazil)...since I design with a CAD shaping program, it's very reassuring to us that we can guarantee accurate attribute reproduction...especially, since many of our clients own other custom Hammers...
http://supsports.com/standup-paddle-boards/hammer-series/
Here's one that's nearing completion for a Zoner (SlatchJim) right now...he wanted it to be even more of a nose rider than the Hammer already is...(hard to imagine...;-), so, I widened it a bit in the nose and thinned it out significantly, while still incorporating the characteristics that make the Hammer special...this one is gonna be a "crowd pleaser"...;-)
Going forward, have you thought about increasing foam density, additional stringer layups, and/or, heavier glassing schedules to achieve the added weight that you are looking for?
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While I do have 8 very dialed in Hammer models from 7'11" to 10'6" that I have taken into production...covering most riders on the planet...
We actually have 10 production Hammer models now...as I have two new soft top Hammer models on the water...and, we will have them in the store shortly...ultimate compact family , dog , and school/rental SUP boards...a new 8'11" x 33" @ 165 liters and a 9'5" x 34" @ 185 liters...
http://surfingsports.com/images/sups_hammer_series.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/images/sups_811_95_hammer_soft_tops_1000.jpg
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If this board is 6" thick how could you not see that it wasn't thinner than the prior board in the photos? Pretty big difference between the two boards. You were able to pick out issues that were not to your specs in the first V2 iteration but not the second?
Also, it would he pretty tough to glass a board to come out at an exact specified weight like you were asking for, especially if it is being sent to a glass shop for the glassing.
If you are going to order a board across the country via email with minute details like it sounds you did, there is a certain amount of risk you are assuming. I've seen this happen fairly often with people ordering surfboards via internet.
Numbers are not exactly going to substitute for the shaper being able to look at Version 1 again.
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i did not see the thickness of either board in pictures. the first rejection was based on other factors -- ie, i'd specified carbon deck patch, not a full wrap of vector net, etc, ez to see in any pic. the second one looked great in the photos he sent me but none of them showed the rails or the thickness. I ASSumed they'd be close to the same as the first one i got and loved.
he does the glassing himself. he just ignored my directions, for whatever reason i can't imagine.
imo, my directions were not minute. if they were minute you wouldn't be able to see the diff in boards the way you can.
wardog: i've thought about all that stuff but only in 20/20 hindsight at this point. just didn't know weight was such a factor for me until the 33lber arrived. i'd always thought volume was the deciding factor, because that's all anyone really talks about, in terms of stability. but in my case it's weight. next time!
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Does it say "Custom for linter" on it?
Most of the boards I ride say "Custom for ___" on them. And the ____ isn't me! ;D
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Also, it would he pretty tough to glass a board to come out at an exact specified weight like you were asking for......
There is more to the story....
The original 33 lb board was done with 2 lb EPS.
Linter asked for another made from 1.5 lb EPS. The weight difference is a simple calculation off the volume number.
It all went to shit when the shaper refused to use 1.5 lb foam and used 1.0. In hindsight, that should have been the warning to walk away from that clown.
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Does it say "Custom for linter" on it?
Wouldn't that be a kick in the old nut sack...
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Custom boards can be such magic, and since they are made for you, I think they always perform a little better. I've always preferred custom surfboards (I can think of only 2 in my lifetime that I've bought off the rack), and I ordered my first custom SUP from Ed Angulo in Maui after having a chance to surf the prototype model here in California. That board was everything I was hoping for, with the exception of color, which was not even close. Nevertheless, it was (is) a great board and I'm glad I dealt with the hassle of the long distance order, because the board has met my expectations in every way, and I really didn't mind the color much at all. At least the acid splash resin tint on mine did not resemble female genitalia, which was the unfortunate case for one of the other guys who placed an order at the same time.
It's always easier to deal with a local shaper, even though many shapers are excellent at meeting customer needs from far away. Unfortunately, there are not nearly as many SUP shapers in the northeast as there are in California and Hawaii, so to get the board you want sometimes it has to be the phone and e-mail thing. I know of at least 2 boards Linter has ordered that way that turned out very well, so he had no reason to believe this one wouldn't. It's a bunch of dough, and I hope the guy who made it is reasonable and can somehow make him whole on the deal.
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Custom boards can be such magic,
So how long would it take you to whittle him down a fine A.G. Wood classic? :)
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DW: I love the handle you suggested I get. The best ever!
Sadly, it wasn't glassed in properly and leaks. I'm in the midst of drying it out right now. Sigh. And this despite the fact that the shaper nickle-dimed me $20 extra for a "handle reinforced insert."
No word back from the shaper. Radio silence. Not a peep. I wrote him six days ago. Wrote him again yesterday. Don't expect to hear back. I feel like I really got shafted on this one. And my emails were even pretty civil. Crap.
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Linter,
Looking forward to a west coast session while you're lurking around.
p.s.: Noll has a shop in San Clemente now. Perhaps he can shape you your own classic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCQJ0_ONB38
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The tail slide in the tube looks pretty violent.
Reminds me about when Mario Andretti made the move from road courses to the oval. As skilled a driver as he was, he had his crew chief dial in more oversteer until he realized for himself that he would need tire changes every other lap.
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Slatch... great vid ;D
Fun to watch those boys rip on a piece of history.... looks like they really enjoyed the change up and the challenge.