Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: 14 West on April 01, 2014, 10:58:18 PM
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I picked up a 2014 7'7" Pro in Carbon last month on Maui, and back home on the water the other day I noticed the thing has dents everywhere (especially on the top of the nose near the upper part of the rails) despite the fact that I bag and baby it. Looking at it at home tonight, I can actually dent the surface just about anywhere just by poking it with my finger or by squeezing the rail with my hand. Comparing it to my 2012 7'" Pro in Carbon which doesn't have a single dent after 150 or so sessions this just seems weird. Same story with the 8' Pro in Carbon I had before that, plenty of use, even lent it to several friends, not a single ding or dent. I know they changed their layup a bit for 2014, so I wonder if they have just gone really light or if my board is defective?
Anyone having a similar experience?
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I have a 2013 8'5" Carbon Pro and while I can't dent it with my hands (even though it feels like I can) I certainly have a lot of paddle blade and shaft dents on the forward half. I think the tail half is a lot more sturdy. When I paddle out and get knocked by waves, I tend to fall forward on or near the board with the paddle, when I fall surfing I tend to fall away from the board. Except 2 days ago when the paddle blade pierced the deck right on the upper rail area about a 1/3 of the way from the nose. Wiped out and board was pushed into me and the paddle by the wave, put a nice little 1in cut in the board.
Not happy the rest of the day, still not happy.
They say they are getting lighter so maybe they are getting better at laying up the materials and can go thinner.
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that sounds pretty fishy, are you sure its a regular production board and not a 'maui special' prototype for a team rider?
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Possible theory....
A few months back, I ran into the owner of a kiteboard company on the beach testing production board samples (made at the Cobra factory). They had the brushed carbon Starboard look. He told me his boards were done this way because it looked cool, but in fact, his boards had zero carbon. Just black pigment, streaked with white.
Before you panic, I have no doubt your Starboards are carbon. But might they have reduced the use of carbon, to make them surf better? Does it surf better?
If you've ever gone too far with the carbon, you'll know it. The board surfs like crap. ;D made that mistake only once myself. :-[
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There is no such thing as brushed carbon - it's a term used to describe the use of tinted filler as the finished look as opposed to a painted finish or exposed carbon or glass laminate. There are several "Brushed Carbon" look boards on the market that do not contain carbon.....Using tinted filler is lighter than a full on paint-job, so it's not a bad thing, it just hasn't got anything to do with carbon.
But I doubt any of the bigger manufacturers would risk using the term carbon in their marketing if there is none in the board.
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Never say never. Brushed carbon was popularized as a way to reduce overheating by adding some light color (white) to black carbon-fiber boards while adding minimum weight. The process was/is shoot the paint and then sand most of it off... very effective and easier to match repair.
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I have since become more educated on the "brushed-carbon" construction by way of putting 2 halves back together to make a whole SUP. I think Bean and Peterp are both right. The board I re-assembled had the same finish on both sides, but only one side had any carbon cloth. The bottom side fiberglass cloth had a black weave-fill coat. Once you sanded through that, you could look through clear glass to the eps below. The deckside of the board also seemed to have a thin black weave-fill, but definitely had some black/carbon looking cloth beneath a thin outer glass layer. This was a Cobra built board sold as a carbon model. Both sides had the "brushed carbon" look.
My previous understanding of "brushed carbon" was the one posted by Bean. Now I know at least part of it is the opposite....black paint to simulate carbon and then white/contrasting paint to make the black seem more authentic. I would still assume that any board sold as "brushed carbon" has carbon cloth in it somewhere...just not necessarily everywhere.
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Overly fragile... My 2013 Allstar was as tough as an egg. Now sold. Cost £2000 too!
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My 2013 14" ACE has the structural integrity of cheese.
I can push the carbon on any part of the board. I've had a big chunk of carbon peel off the inside of the footwell and its cracked across the bottom in front of the footwell. Fixing it we found that the foam has been joined together at that point so It's not been made out of a single blank.
Great board and it's send a lot of service, paddled every day and hard racing, but even so not impressed with the build quality.
I've seen a few of the 2014 race boards sent back with bubbles appearing on the bottom (delams?)
On the other hand my 2012 EPS ACE and 2013 Widepoint are tough as nails
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My 2013 14" ACE has the structural integrity of cheese.
I can push the carbon on any part of the board. I've had a big chunk of carbon peel off the inside of the footwell and its cracked across the bottom in front of the footwell. Fixing it we found that the foam has been joined together at that point so It's not been made out of a single blank.
Great board and it's send a lot of service, paddled every day and hard racing, but even so not impressed with the build quality.
I've seen a few of the 2014 race boards sent back with bubbles appearing on the bottom (delams?)
On the other hand my 2012 EPS ACE and 2013 Widepoint are tough as nails
Opps wrong dates.
The Cheesey ACE is a 2012 (light gray)
The solid EPS was a 2011 (the first year of being called ACE instead of NEW)
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http://youtu.be/AGzQA5DjHPE
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My 2013 carbon 14' Allstar is really tough. Definitely don't want to fall on the sides of the recessed deck - hurts
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yes mine do the same thing. but they are prototypes. i jus taped paddle again no more nicks.
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do you mean a Starboard prototype? how would that be different from a regular layup?
Dan G is sure not shy about banging the boards around a little! :D
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Tony, maybe you bought a dud?
Sorry about your board.
My 7'7" has a few cracks and one moderate pressure ding, but no water leaks.
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Tony, maybe you bought a dud?
Sorry about your board.
My 7'7" has a few cracks and one moderate pressure ding, but no water leaks.
Yeah, well that is what I am wondering! The 2012's and 2013's shared the same construction and are bulletproof from what I've seen, but I know they changed the materials a bit for 2014, so maybe they are just fragile now? But still, a carbon board that dents from finger pressure just seems bizarre and really defeats the purpose of carbon!
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Here are a couple photos, it's really hard to make the light work so you can see them in more than a small area at a time but both sides are like this plus across the top. Many of those dents are from my fingers squeezing the rails.
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Whoa! Warranty that. I have a 2012 carbon & the layup is super stiff and super strong... nothing at all like those pics.
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Yeah I had a 2012 8' Pro and still have a 2012 7'7" Pro and same story as you, they are bullet proof. 100+ sessions on each and not a single dent. Is it true with everything - they just don't build them like they used to?!?
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It is definitely worth a direct call to Starboard. I would guess they would like hear about it and fix the problem.
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^
Not normal!
Call it in, ASAP.
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the 2014s are very different then 2012 and 2013s
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I have heard the carbon lay up isn't the same for this year, and I recall hearing the AST/epoxy versions aren't the same across the board either. More flex and possibly not as durable. Just speculation from other people's opinions but it would be good to know what the real story is on the build process for this year.
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Okay- i can offer some insight here. I was lucky enough to somehow order a 2014 allstar and take delivery of it in november last year. It was a pre-production board (evidenced by dark blue color). When it arrived it had a slight blister on the nose where the carbon delaminated from the divinycell. I still paddled it for a while then made a warranty claim. Starboard basically said - oops, we'll send you a fresh one, just cut that one in half first.
It was painful, but i did it. See pics.
Well, my new board arrived 4 or 5 days later. I guess that kind of service should be expected at the pricepoint, still I was very impressed, and very happy.
So now i'll rat myself out. I'm reassembling the two halfs, having never done any work with composites before its been a fun and challenging project. And please believe me- IN NO WAY cost effective. Ive bought probably $600 in consumables & materials, and will have spent 80 hours or more working on this thing (& learning). This warranty claim isn't some clever way to get another board for half price, its a tedious way to go insane. But im already nuts & have a lot of tools.
The relevant bit is - their boards are constructed exactly as described on the site, eps, inner glass, h50 & h80? divinycell, carbon, then faired with tinted filler. Rails get crazy reinforcement, several plies reg. glass and some uni directional carbon. Standing area has a hardwood ply veneer of sorts. This whole system appears very well thought out. There is one reoccuring problem that the board lady mentions on her site, at some stage of construction at Cobra, there is a some product used to fair depressions or bond loose glass or something? I cant remember exactly? At any rate it can lead to blisters or delams, if they could iron out this last weakness they'd be flawless. Also the blister can be fixed pretty easily.
To summarize, I'm a not an expert, but ive recently dissected a starboard, and successfully reassembled it with all oem materials & methods. In my opinion, they couldn't be built any better or more complexly. Sandwich construction over a eps core, pretty crazy. Also the board is awesome. I was at a race yesterday and it was like the village bicycle, i lost track of it for a while, id bet 15 people took it out and everyone loved it. Making my new board available for everyone to try was my way of paying back starboard HQ for keeping the board i cut in half, they'll sell 5 more because of it.
Ill add pics later ipad wont let me.
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Well, how are they making the boards 5% lighter each year for the past couple years?
New materials? Less glass?
At 12 to 14 lbs for the shorter boards, I'll take more durability over a few ounces!
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Had a similar experience with a Coreban carbon. I ordered the Coreban from the local rep in the Gorge. When it was delivered I saw several dimples in the skin, which I thought shouldn't be there, on a brand new board. I showed it to the guys at Big Winds, where the board had been delivered, and one of them tested the board with his fingers. Every spot where he pressed down left a new dent! Needless to say, I did not accept delivery. Apparently, some carbon layups do not set properly, or so it seems.
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Well I sure hope warranty comes through. The are probably 1/2" heel dents under the pad in it now.
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Any updates?
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Okay- i can offer some insight here. I was lucky enough to somehow order a 2014 allstar and take delivery of it in november last year. It was a pre-production board (evidenced by dark blue color). When it arrived it had a slight blister on the nose where the carbon delaminated from the divinycell. I still paddled it for a while then made a warranty claim. Starboard basically said - oops, we'll send you a fresh one, just cut that one in half first.
It was painful, but i did it. See pics.
Well, my new board arrived 4 or 5 days later. I guess that kind of service should be expected at the pricepoint, still I was very impressed, and very happy.
So now i'll rat myself out. I'm reassembling the two halfs, having never done any work with composites before its been a fun and challenging project. And please believe me- IN NO WAY cost effective. Ive bought probably $600 in consumables & materials, and will have spent 80 hours or more working on this thing (& learning). This warranty claim isn't some clever way to get another board for half price, its a tedious way to go insane. But im already nuts & have a lot of tools.
The relevant bit is - their boards are constructed exactly as described on the site, eps, inner glass, h50 & h80? divinycell, carbon, then faired with tinted filler. Rails get crazy reinforcement, several plies reg. glass and some uni directional carbon. Standing area has a hardwood ply veneer of sorts. This whole system appears very well thought out. There is one reoccuring problem that the board lady mentions on her site, at some stage of construction at Cobra, there is a some product used to fair depressions or bond loose glass or something? I cant remember exactly? At any rate it can lead to blisters or delams, if they could iron out this last weakness they'd be flawless. Also the blister can be fixed pretty easily.
To summarize, I'm a not an expert, but ive recently dissected a starboard, and successfully reassembled it with all oem materials & methods. In my opinion, they couldn't be built any better or more complexly. Sandwich construction over a eps core, pretty crazy. Also the board is awesome. I was at a race yesterday and it was like the village bicycle, i lost track of it for a while, id bet 15 people took it out and everyone loved it. Making my new board available for everyone to try was my way of paying back starboard HQ for keeping the board i cut in half, they'll sell 5 more because of it.
Ill add pics later ipad wont let me.
It's a shame you took advantage of their warranty policy.
As a retailer that deals with Starboard - I hope it does not affect the ease of how they process warranties in the future.
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Easy, I'm of two minds. Let's start by saying they should have inspected that board before selling. That's the straight truth.
If he sells it, that would mis-represent the brand and be bad, I totally agree with you. On the other hand, making a beater/loaner and keeping that one out of the landfill I think is a solid thing to do as long as it's made clear that this was a hack job and he retains ownership until the end of its days.
I think it sounds like he's more than paid for that "blank" with effort and materials. ;)
I'm going to reserve judgement. He did what they asked. He could have made them pay for return shipping for that unusable board and we all know it.
If it was my company I'd have told him, "don't sell that one and it's yours to keep."
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Hey SupTrip, not making any moral judgments either way, but it seems like you did as you were instructed, whatever's left is yours to do with as you please.
I am curious about the center area between the foot pads. Is there any High Density Foam running done the center of the standing area? I'd like to put the same double screw inserts in the center of the board for one of the side handles. In the same vain, is there HDF in the rails where the handle inserts are located.
Not to be morbid, but any pics? Thanks.
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I guess if SupTrip had been really devious, he could have cut the board in half, then taken out two classified ads for "Starboard Allstar--50% off".
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Any updates?
The warranty machine is in motion.... waiting to hear back. Fingers crossed!
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UPDATE - Warranty was approved. Now I just need to do the bad deed and cut the old sucker in half. I'm hoping I can salvage the deck pad somehow, and maybe the tail kick too as I really like it. Then fingers crossed the new board doesn't have the same issues.
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Somehow i totally missed all the follow up posts on this thread. Firstly I'm really happy starboard warrantied the OP's board.
Second, let this serve as a disclaimer for anyone considering attempting to repair one of these boards in the manner i did, i.e. with all the correct materials, vacuum bagging, fairing it all out perfectly, etc.
The only aspect of this project that makes it worthwhile is the experience gained, or the fun of learning & tinkering. This is certainly not a financially smart move, the raw materials probably cost me $600.00 - $800.00, and god only knows how much time, maybe 40+ hours of dicking around with it.
Its cheaper to buy another one. But i will say the repaired board turned out sick! I've nicknamed it frankenstein, and raced it in the florida cup this past weekend. Its really very nice, i shot it with ppg delfleet essential. I think that and the repairs added 2 lbs, although it is extremely stiff now, very little flex. Its a lead sled.
Easy, for whats its worth- im such a fan of the starboards i just bought a new carbon 14' x 26" sprint. I rode an ace the other day and its got me thinking.
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Re: taking advantage of warranty quality control should catch errors in construction, period. Sounds like West's board had a bad batch of resin.
EASY, what you have done with the damaged board as a retailer? Patched it up and sold it as new for full price? ;)
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Here's the new stick at Waddell Beach near Santa Cruz. Thanks to Steve and Russ at Hi-Tech Maui for making the process quick and easy.
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Here's the new stick at Waddell Beach near Santa Cruz. Thanks to Steve and Russ at Hi-Tech Maui for making the process quick and easy.
Two thumbs up for Steve and Russ at Hi-Tech Maui. Great example of customer service.
They are great to deal with and will always get you the best price on a Starboard.
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EASY, what you have done with the damaged board as a retailer? Patched it up and sold it as new for full price? ;)
I would have cut it in half - as requested - and then either disposed of it - or made a bench / table / sign for the shop / or trophies for my sup events. All of which I have done.