Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: Larry Allison on December 07, 2013, 05:35:11 PM
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The Twin Race movement has come a long way. Thought I would share some show and tell. Please feel free to jump in my friends. Mahalo, Larry
http://www.supracefins.com/uncategorized/twin-fins-or-more-on-a-race-board/ (http://www.supracefins.com/uncategorized/twin-fins-or-more-on-a-race-board/)
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Hovie Comet Twin 12/6.
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Infinity Cutthroat going Twin
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Indigo 12/2 from Florida
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Thanks for the post Larry. I love the debate on this subject. Its been really interesting to hear such varying opinions on this topic. Innovation is what keeps the sport growing. Here's to the Crazy One's who aren't afraid to try new things and push the envelope!
Casey
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Fin selection for the Ventral /Probox Twin combos has grown pretty much in the last 6 months.
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Sneak peak at new carrying cases for Allison Race Fins in 2014.
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This is my 10/6 stock board that I ride most of the time. I ride it with Twins and a small Ventral in between. The Ventral gives the board projection like the kick fin does in the surfboard world. I was riding the yellow GT twins until I came out with the Smoke Lazy "S" GT twins in the first pic below are now my favorite in this board for Touring conditions.
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A batch of Probox Finsystems Twins coming thru for my customers.
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I had a shop owner call me one day and said can I retro fit some M&M Boards to sell in his shop by requests of some customers. I said yes only if I could ride them afterwards, he replied no problem. Here in the bottom pic you see a 12'6" and 14' M&M retro fitted with https://www.facebook.com/Probox.Finsystem (https://www.facebook.com/Probox.Finsystem) with a fin selection at the beach. We tested these 2 boards over 2 hours with 5 different riders including my self as one of the test pilots. My favorite for me was the Probox Twins , 4" by 10" and Large Ventral up front. I could not ride these 2 boards as a single fin period!
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For anyone interested in some more feedback from people who have actually done this to their board, see the comments at the bottom of the post. Quite a few of them have chimed in with their personal experiences.
http://www.supracefins.com/uncategorized/twin-fins-or-more-on-a-race-board/ (http://www.supracefins.com/uncategorized/twin-fins-or-more-on-a-race-board/)
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Larry , I am surprised to see the fins so far forward on most of those boards. My fins started way forward and with each board I have moved them way back because the tracking is better the greater the distance from the point of entry of the paddle to the fins. Although the fins forward are better for turning. Whats your experience with this ? It seems that for flat water paddling fin placement is not very critical. On the other hand surfing or down winding placement is everything !
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Or ends. It's certainly interesting, but unless a major production race board shows up with twins, I am doubtful this design will gain any traction. It's a lot time, fins and money to invest in, especially for those of us who seem prone to blow money every year on the latest and greatest. Remember when there use to be something called an unlimited board...
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Comment from Reid Inouye of Standup Paddle Magazine. The Hovie Race Board pics below is the board Reid was riding that he based his option on.
Reid Inouye Twins? Just when you thought it was all safe….. lets take it a step further and say “quad experimentation? 2010 quad’s on open water proved that right placement less the upper ventral fin can create more speed. Like the old ’60′s single fins that were re-designed from prior board makers, then various bottoms, rockers, rails, SUP is seeing evolution and unless you were there to see what happened in surf, you will remember what SUP was with regard to race just 5 years ago. After Hobie did the winning board at the 1st BOP in 2008?, SUP race boards changed forever. But with board design, comes fin designs and changes. In surf, single, twins, thrusters quads, 5-fins are all based on water displacement, propulsion, release and to say fins don’t make a difference is total crock. for those who are into performance boards there is an equation with you and your board and that equality comes to going fast and having fun. Real simple. All I can say is be open minded. Don’t sit there and think single fin race boards are the answer. If you are a board maker or a manufacturer, think like a dinosaur and you’ll get left in the dust. Same with a racer. Don’t give a shit about what people might say about what you’re riding, Just ride what goes fast or gives you the ultimate wave riding toy. As for the win factor, i like it in certain conditions. Flat water 12’6″ I can go either way. Single race fin is my preference. It there’s a side chop, back hop or forward lump I like the twin because you can push of the back keels and get speed. Now don’t get me wrong, I rarely race. in fact I don’t race anymore but if I do, I’ll ride the fastest board out there to get the edge. and some experimenting has already been started on quads and because race boards are more about going forward and less about surfing, even number back fins make more sense regarding forward and side to side balance than say 3 or 5 fins. Lastly, on a 14′ I can only say i like the keel ventral more than a single fin. Just my own preference though mainly because i can pump the back fins when i paddle and not feel like i’m going to do the “tip/recover” thing. Lastly, we’re not even close to design, fins, placement, etc. This is just the beginning, just be open minded. Remember the book “Green eggs and Ham”. Well next Larry will be cooking “Green Eggs and Spam” with teriyaki sauce and he doesn’t even know it.
Reply
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Like the beer commercial says, it's only weird if it doesn't work.
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Here's some more Data from another guy Wayne Limm from South Bay who called me one day for a ProBox Twin Install. Wayne was also one of the test riders in the group that tested the M&M Boardwork Twins.
I will come back and answer some of your comments in a few my friend. Thanks for asking questions, Mahalo
Wayne Comment:
Wayne Limm In the past couple of yrs I've progressed through the Ninja, several Gladiators, & the Bat Wing on a 12'6" Surftech Competitor and the green Big Joe (14 ft) in the pic. They all improved tracking on flat water. What I really wanted to do though, is paddling in the open ocean & not worry about losing my balance & getting wet. Larry's pro box twins and ventral are rock solid stable in allowing me to go just about anywhere in the ocean. I love being able to tinker with the fin set up for different conditions.
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My Fanatic Fly Race Carbon 14' Flatwater and my Surftech Bark Competitor is going to have the AVS and TWINS installed. In a month or so I will have them tested :)
Henrik F
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Lastly, we’re not even close to design, fins, placement, etc. This is just the beginning, just be open minded. Remember the book “Green eggs and Ham”. Well next Larry will be cooking “Green Eggs and Spam” with teriyaki sauce and he doesn’t even know it.
It's always interesting to me (and a good lesson) to see that the people who know the most about something are the first to say how much more there is to know.
I'm excited about the experimentation and the idea that fins could become much more prominent in regard to how boards perform. It's pretty wild to see people focused on fin shape, then out of the blue (to me) people are questioning the number of fins--esp. when the standard idea is that you'd be crazy to put more than one fin on a race board. It does seem like there's been some growth in appreciation of fins' importance even in just the last couple years--hope that continues. All we need now is for race rule makers to stay out of the way, so the rules don't lock in today's practices.
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Underwater shot of Probox Twins in motion.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10203015944466134&comment_id=7357138&offset=0&total_comments=2¬if_t=mentions_comment (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10203015944466134&comment_id=7357138&offset=0&total_comments=2¬if_t=mentions_comment)
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This Indigo Board in the pic is owned by Conrad Garcia from Florida. Conrad Garcia shares here his experience using ProBox Twins and Ventral combo.
Conrad Garcia comments:
Conrad Garcia Great article Larry W. Allison and Casey Gotcher. And great comment by Reid Inouye. The carbon Indigo with twin Allison fins and dual ventral in the article is my rec class 12'2" x 31" board. It is faster with just twins and ventral front. The center ventral in back actually helps with tracking in rough ocean conditions but adds drag. I do not surf, so I'm interested in going straight, fast, and staying on my board.....the twins and ventral really make up for my lack of ability and keep the barge going straight and balanced in the worse South Florida washing machine conditions.
My previous rec class board was also 12'2 x 31" 225ltr and was we'll balanced with a single fin. The new board is 255ltr and faster with the twins. My mistake on the new board is that it should have been 29" wide, and the twins with 2 ventrals or single ventral would have given me the same stability as my previous single fin board, but more speed. 31" wide board with quad fins was definitely overkill, but the set up works very well in any size board.
I guess it's time to start a new twins with ventral fin project on another 12'2" or 14' board.
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Hi this is Wayne. My first post! When I got the twin & ventral installed, I immediately noticed the board was faster than with just a single fin. Larry attributed this to straighter tracking (i.e. less alternating paddle on each side) and better glide.
From that point to now I've been able to paddle to places that were previously too challenging or difficult for my skill level. Really enjoying the ride ;D
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The Pics below are from Joel Yang out of Washington on this Starboard.
Joel Yang comments on his use of ProBox Twins and Ventral:
This is my Starboard Coast Runner 14'. It is now part of our quiver as the Village of Stoke Tandem board that Coli and I use for paddling locally and at the races here. It as taken quite a bit of morphing over the last year of ownership starting with it taking flight from the roof of a car - getting brought back to life by an amazing friend - Sean Thomas from Echo Composites, who has proven to be quite the board repair guy/customboardmaker/awesomeguyonthewater in our neck of the woods, to taking on some mods with Larry W. Allison's ProBox Finsystems and Ventral fin installation. This board ever since is perhaps the most versatile board in our quiver that I use for everything from Training, Racing, Downwinding, and Tandem paddling with the Stoke-o-nut. I now have the ability to switch up how this board feels according to the type of paddling I do..(imagine being able to switch out the tires on your vehicle according to the road and weather conditions on a dime)... Imagine this: a 200lb guy that has ZERO grace and looks like a Bulldozer when paddling with medium balance and a child that has very limited athletic ability and is nowhere close to as Ninja as the both of us would like to be on a board that is 14 x 28" - - - this setup has allowed us to move forward from the 11'6x32 board that we were using in the past (which I'm extremely thankful for!) I cannot even imagine having a board without this setup from this point onwards.
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Here's pic and review on the Infinity 12/6 Cutthroat with Billy Kho:
Billy Kho says:
December 8, 2013 at 8:23 pm
Billy Kho I’ve been experimenting with the twin/ ventral combination on my Infinity 12’6. Prior to Larry setting me up with the twins and front ventral I was paddling my board with a Gladiator hybrid for stability since my board was a little tippy at 25 inches wide and a lot less volume than what I was used too. In flat water to mild wind conditions the board paddled fine, but in moderate chop and race conditions while being in the mix with all the wash from other boards it proved to be pretty tippy. The addition of the twins along with the proper size ventral provided a much more stable feel . My first feedback is that it’s not necessarily faster than a single fin set up, but it is not slower either. I can’t wait to try it on a board more suitable to my size and weight, which Steve Boehne just shaped me. I’m very optimistic with the direction Larry is going with the twinnes, we are in the initial R and D phase playing with how the fins react with different covcaves, rocker, bottom contours and fin sizes. This has been fun for me, keeping things fresh and exciting!
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I need some guidance on toe-in angle on Twins for a 16-5 build. And if you Think ventral is neccessary on a board that Long.
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Larry--good to hear of all the developments in twin fins since I last talked to you down at your factory a few months ago.
What are the latest thoughts of the need for a ventral fin (in front)? Would twins + fin box ventral fin provide adequate tracking without a ventral fin in front? A ventral in front wouldn't work for me, as I surf the 12'6" quite a bit.
BroDog--I recognize your mug/board from the pics above. Sup4Fun and I met you at the Adler Paddler Race earlier in the summer in Long Beach. See you around the South Bay!
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Here is a review by Allison Race Team Ambassador Chip Bock: One of the strongest supporter of Twins beside Chris Hill of North Carolina would started the Race Twin movement with me almost 2 years back after the Surf Twin movement on the Phoenix Boards 3 years back. Enjoy the Ride my friends.
Release the Twins!!
Part I of II
Ok, NOT what you were thinking…
I am talking about Twin Fins on SUP Race Boards.
Now I know many of you are saying “Aw come on, I saw people do that a couple of years ago and it didn’t work…”
Well, you are right. It didn’t.
The bigger question is WHY?
It didn’t work because shapers and riders did what we usually do…take what we know and apply it…well…to EVERYTHING.
Twin fins didn’t work previously because traditional SURFBOARD dimensions and fins were applied to SUP race shapes.
You see the interesting thing about SUP’s is that they are...SUP’s.
Especially unique are Race SUP’s.
They are not canoes, or kayaks or outriggers or sailboats or powerboats or windsurfers.
The physics occurring when paddling a SUP of any kind, due to the weight being centered in a very small area (even compared to a Kayak or Canoe), the angle of leverage being so much higher above the boards water line and the fact that we are only going 6-7mph (and that’s at the Elite fast end in flat water) is something that many of us seem to overlook.
So back to Twin Fins; How and Why do they work now?
It's because SUP Race Twin Fins need specialized fins and a more in depth analysis of what a SUP race board is doing Under and On Top of the water (and not forgetting to factor in environmental forces like Current, Wind and Surface Chop).
Enter Larry Allison of Allison Race Fins and Fibre Glas Fin Co.
More about Larry - see video below:
http://youtu.be/-oN8TziAEFM (http://youtu.be/-oN8TziAEFM) - Larry Allison
I have worked with Larry quite a bit over the last couple of years on different fin designs (the Ventral Fin box and advent of the Mini-Ventral are some of my forays with Larry).
So when Larry said “Let’s put a pair of Pro-Boxes in your carbon 14ft race board” (and he explained why) I said “Let’s do it!” (Special thanks to George at www.surfguyssurf.com (http://www.surfguyssurf.com) who does all of the fin box modifications on my race/surf boards - top shelf work)
Flash forward to a few fin size and shape alterations later and I again say Release the Twins!
So what will Twin Fins in your SUP Race board do for you?? (THE HOW)
1. Increased stability – not just to the boards’ general shape, but also in chop, side wind, heavy seas, while paddling, etc.
2. Increased projection - in adverse side wind and chop (at the 2013 Key West Classic this year I was able to accelerate, pass and point higher than other paddlers on the back side of the island cutting across the large bay with a 25 mph cross wind; I attribute that to the Twin Fins and Ventral Fin combo I was running – especially compared to the previous year with a single fin on the same board)
3. Off the line top speed – From a standing start, Twin fins allow you to accelerate up to the boards top speed much quicker than a single fin.
4. Low Drag, Low Drag, Low Drag – a pair of twin fins are only 4-5 inches deep. Depth is drag. (At this year’s Carolina Cup I was able to cut across very shallow sections of the Intracoastal; keeping me out of the very heavy on coming current we paddled in for almost 8 miles and again afforded me to catch and pass 5-6 racers or more on the back side of the course.)
For THE WHY, I need to break this up into two posts.
In my next post I will explain why Twin Fins work in more detail (The Method behind the Madness)
NOTE: Do not run out and throw a set of surf fin boxes in your race boards and snap in a set of 4 inch surf fins - remember this didn’t work the first time around.
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Release the Twins - Part II
So now for the “Why” twins work so well in SUP Racing compared to traditional single fin set up’s…
Single fins Vs. Twin fins in SUP Race boards when trying to go straight and fast:
1. Projection
a. Because Single Fins are in a center fixed position in the tail; fin outline shape, flex, cord length and depth can all dramatically effect projection – projection effects speed in both flat water and catching bumps down wind
b. Twin Fins are able to “push off” from two separate parallel planes, allowing for one fin to compensate for lateral forces (side chop, turbulence from other paddlers, etc.) and provide more consistent projection (with far less drag due to reduced depth)
2. Drag
a. Single fins tend to be longer (or deeper) because with only a single plane to work off of; single fins need to do the multiple tasks of projection, yaw (tracking) and lateral stability – this does not allow for the fins to go much shallower than 6-7” (and be affective)
b. A pair of Twin Fins can accommodate the same surface area as a larger single fin with much less depth; as little as 4” – my current favorite for most race conditions are 4” deep with a 10” base in an “Elliptical” shape – Depth equals drag, so if you can run shallower fins, you have less drag.
3. Stability
a. Single Fins again have a single plane to counteract lateral forces like side chop and sub-surface turbulence (from boats, and other paddlers), rebound from shore lines, jettys, docks etc. The plane also being at the tail, makes it even harder for this single point to stabilize efficiently (similar concept as to what is more stable in rough water; a dual hull/keel vessel or a single hull/keel vessel)
b. Twin Fins again have the advantage of dual planes; this allows for greater lateral resistance (as water pushes and pulls from both sides, allowing one fin to compensate for the other and visa versa) – increased lateral resistance equals greater stability – in order for a Single Fin to increase lateral resistance, it has to be made longer – BUT if you make it longer (deeper) what happens? – Increased Depth equals Increased Drag
4. Tracking (Yaw)
a. Single Fin SUP race boards suffer from excessive Yaw – early Single Fin SUP surf boards had tremendous Yaw for example; this is one of the reason’s displacement shapes for race Sup’s came into use; to compensate for the Yaw created by paddling a single blade paddle on one side and then the other – if you create displacement in the nose, the hull aids in compensating for the Yaw and allows the board to go straighter (more strokes per side) and helps the boards “track” and “point” in side chop and windy conditions
b. Twin Fin race boards do not need as much nose displacement – the two planes of the Twin Fins work off of each other, creating better tracking and pointing. When added to a Ventral fin (a single fin located 20” forward of center balance point) – the three fins work in concert, allowing the paddler to point a board (displacement hull or not) wherever they want to go (regardless of side wind and surface chop). How to use this efficiently requires an understanding of the various environmental forces that a SUP race board can encounter in what I like to call “Mixed Media Races” – race courses that traverse both open ocean, intra-coastal waterways, tidal currents, cross/head/tail winds, etc. ALL in a single race. Twin Fins together with a Ventral fin, exchange “jobs” when set up properly throughout a single race; producing more efficient hydro dynamics for the paddler.
5. Venturi Effect (added bonus)
a. If you view a Single Fin underwater when paddling a Race Sup board, you will see turbulence (as bubbles and wash) coming off the fin as it alternates pressures being placed on it from side to side with each stroke of the paddle blade.
b. If you view a Twin Fin set up underwater when paddling, you will see zero turbulence. The water is releasing cleanly and with greater efficiency than the Single Fin. An added bonus I discovered with the Twin Fin set up is a “Venturi Effect” that is generated by the parallel fins. The Twin fins from Larry Allison combined with Pro Box Fin Systems are placed in reverse to how they are positioned on a Twin Fin Surf Board – the “Flat” side of the fin is on the outside of the fin towards each rail – the convex sides are on the inside facing each other – this channels the water between the fins and creates a “Venturi Jet Effect” off the tail.
In summary, Twin Fins in Race SUP boards:
· Reduce drag (shallower Fins)
· Increase stability (increased lateral resistance while maintaining reduced drag)
· Increased projection
· Enhanced tracking (without increased hull displacement required, allowing for more “planning shapes” in Race SUP boards)
· Venturi Effect (channeling water, increasing speed – especially time from standing start to top speed is reduced)
If in Florida or Southeast – contact George at www.surfguyssurf.com (http://www.surfguyssurf.com) to get your Sup Race board retrofitted to Twin Fins and feel the difference!
**NOTE: Not all Sup Race Boards have flat bottoms – Twin Fins need to be set at Zero Degrees (meaning vertical to the bottom) – Pro Box Fins Systems by Larry Allison are the only retro-fit fin boxes that allow for different “Cant” inserts – this allows for Zero Degree alignment regardless of the contours of your Race Sup bottom – we tested various Cants with Twin Fins for this application and Zero Degree positioning of the Fins is CRUCIAL. – I have a Morelli and Melvin 14’ Race Sup being retrofitted now and will post more detail on “Cant”; using this board shape to illustrate.
So let’s see those Twins and see YOU in the water – Aloha!
The Pic below:
(Blue/Green Board to far right) - Twin Fin Standing Start example - within first few yards the board is at top speed (notice the small "jet" effect off tail - that's the Venturi Effect)
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For what its worth I have twin fins on the Kaholo that I built earlier this year, and I have been very happy with them. After reading all these posts though I feel like I may want to add the ventral fin I kept seeing on the pictures. Where should I place that thing on a 14 ft board, and what are the typical dimensions on it?
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For what its worth I have twin fins on the Kaholo that I built earlier this year, and I have been very happy with them. After reading all these posts though I feel like I may want to add the ventral fin I kept seeing on the pictures. Where should I place that thing on a 14 ft board, and what are the typical dimensions on it?
Alright bretrwarner, nice to see you jump in my friend. Posts some pics of your board! On any board the formula for the Ventral is 20" forward of the balance point of the board to the back of the 10" fin box(Hi Surf Box Produced by Larry Allison). Not to get the balance point confused with the middle of the board, because the middle of the board is not the balance point most of the time.
Ventral fins come in 3 sizes, 2 1/2" by 8 1/2" is the small. 2 3/4" by 11" is the Medium. 3" by 12" is the large Ventral. Ventral fins are all Screwless (Click In) for ease of changing to the conditions or stacking on top of your car when loading boards.
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Here are some pics of my boards fins. It was my first time ever glassing anything, hence the bumps. Fun board though, and faster than I thought it would be.
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Here are some pics of my boards fins. It was my first time ever glassing anything, hence the bumps. Fun board though, and faster than I thought it would be.
Nice work bretrwarner, I really like the out line for Twins on that board. Post another pic showing the bottom nose entry to see if a front Ventral would work or adding a Ventral small between the twins only instead. Thanks for sharing.
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Are you running these fins parallel to the centerline...that is without any tow in?
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Probox-Larry, here is the underside of the board. Its three panels total, I couldn't tell you where the standing area is without being out on the water and actually marking it.
Supflorida, I am not sure if your question is for me or in general, but I put the fins on exactly how the plans I bought on the internet told me to. I believe that made them parallel to the centerline.
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Probox-Larry, here is the underside of the board. Its three panels total, I couldn't tell you where the standing area is without being out on the water and actually marking it.
Supflorida, I am not sure if your question is for me or in general, but I put the fins on exactly how the plans I bought on the internet told me to. I believe that made them parallel to the centerline.
Plans you bought on the Internet? Where was that?
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They are from Chesapeake Light craft, www.clcboats.com (http://www.clcboats.com)
They make all sorts of kits to build wooden boats, boards, whatever. They have a kit for the SUP I built where you buy the pieces precut, but I was trying to save money, which sort of worked, so I cut the pieces myself.
They have a 12'6" too, but I like the 14' way better.
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Another review from Joel Yang i Washington:
Joel Yang says:
December 10, 2013 at 11:31 pm
At the time when Larry first brought up the idea of modding one of my boards to try out the ventral/twin fin system with me – I was curious but not quite sure if I was at the level where I’d really be able to notice a difference (or what it would really do for someone like me that was not an elite racer). My Starboard 14′ Coast Runner AST was in the process of getting repaired so I went for the Ventral/Probox mod. Due to the nature of my board being a 14′ AST it naturally had some characteristics that I knew would potentially mute some of the initial feel of the new setup (weight and flex). It was hard to really feel what was going on during the first flatwater test – so I decided to do more comparative testing in other types of water to see what what could be different. I brought the board into choppy open water, low flowing rivers, and some downwinding. These are some of the characteristics I found on my particular setup.
-The design of the Starboard Coast Runner excels in choppier waters (which is what made me fall in love with it in the first place). The choppier the water, the more fun you’re going to have – especially if it leads into a downwinder. The planing hull design of the Starboard has a very loose feel and the nose shape does not lock or submarine when it’s windy and choppy out, allowing you to navigate with ease. The flip side to the Coast runner design is that sometimes when you need the front end to stay engaged…it remains loose and can be frustrating. The addition of the Ventral fin box allows you to track straighter, and depending on which size ventral fin you choose – you now have the ability to update the character of the board and choose how much you’ll need the nose to engage. On longer distance paddles – the addition of the ventral fin has helped me lots – keeping me straighter and not weaving all over the place (especially when I’m tired and my paddle strokes get sloppy)
- The twins in the rear have a very unique feeling: on the first flatwater test – I did not feel a dramatic difference – when I switched between a single and the twins…… but I did notice that there was an extension of glide when I stopped paddling with the twin setup that I did not get with the single fin. In Choppier water, I did feel the additional stability and the ability to keep going with more strokes per side when compared to a single fin setup. The added stability also allowed me to be much more comfortable walking my board and utilizing more of my board while downwinding than I normally would with just a single fin setup. Using the twin setup and a ventral in the center finbox (in back) also gave the feeling of so much more control when I was on the back of the board. It felt like I was stepping on a gas pedal and the board would respond in the form of forward projection which was extremely gratifying as I had not been able to achieve this feeling in the past.
-The Ventral/Twin setup has allowed me to paddle in very shallow waters and upwind easily as there is no worry of the fin hitting rocks or logs, catching weeds, or pulling me to one side.
- Upon further experimentation – I was also able to figure out the perfect configuration to allow my daughter and myself to paddle this board tandem. I am not a graceful guy – and I have mediocre balance at best. My daughter is very fidgety and wriggles a lot when we paddle together – but the both of us enjoy participating in local races. When we figured out the right config of this setup – it clicked for us! – she felt so much more confident while paddling a narrow board, and the both of us are able to move around on the board and adjust our stances depending on what paddle stroke we need to get into. Both hers and my level of riding together tandem and confidence have gone up dramatically since we have had this setup that I cannot imagine any of my boards in the future without it. I am so grateful that we can paddle this setup now rather than push water on the former board we used. This has been such a fun and rewarding project for both Coli and I – Thanks so much to Larry for keeping this all exciting and possible for us!!!
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They are from Chesapeake Light craft, www.clcboats.com (http://www.clcboats.com)
They make all sorts of kits to build wooden boats, boards, whatever. They have a kit for the SUP I built where you buy the pieces precut, but I was trying to save money, which sort of worked, so I cut the pieces myself.
They have a 12'6" too, but I like the 14' way better.
Oh! The board kit, I thought you bought the fin placement concept which is free from my posts on the forums my friend. Nice work on that. I can see a small Ventral being glassed on needed. The measurement for that is 18" from your big toes where your sweet spot on that board is to the trailing edge of the Small Ventral fin.
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So Larry what is the science on the fin placement? Is there any toe-in and cant? How far away from the tail? And finally what are the options for the base? Thanks!
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So Larry what is the science on the fin placement? Is there any toe-in and cant? How far away from the tail? And finally what are the options for the base? Thanks!
All good questions Starman. I will answer those shortly, now that the reviews have been posted to give people time to take everything in and ask questions. Got to run to the Airport and have a few heavy meetings with some new stuff coming out. But will get back to give you a break down my friend. Mahalo
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Lastly, we’re not even close to design, fins, placement, etc. This is just the beginning, just be open minded. Remember the book “Green eggs and Ham”. Well next Larry will be cooking “Green Eggs and Spam” with teriyaki sauce and he doesn’t even know it.
It's always interesting to me (and a good lesson) to see that the people who know the most about something are the first to say how much more there is to know.
I'm excited about the experimentation and the idea that fins could become much more prominent in regard to how boards perform. It's pretty wild to see people focused on fin shape, then out of the blue (to me) people are questioning the number of fins--esp. when the standard idea is that you'd be crazy to put more than one fin on a race board. It does seem like there's been some growth in appreciation of fins' importance even in just the last couple years--hope that continues. All we need now is for race rule makers to stay out of the way, so the rules don't lock in today's practices.
Mike, Open minded shapers like the idea of more fins they get it. Close minded Shapers that say fins are not important makes me laugh when their board designs look like Gun surfboards for big waves. I have been lucky that the new breed of Sup Shapers are more Progressive than the old time surfboard shapers that hit the Sup market first and are now falling behind. Also STOKED how SHARP the Sup consumer is over the Sup Manufactures and stand their ground which is different in the Surf Market where the Consumer drinks the Koolaid then complains the boards don't work.
I have retro fitted 3 year old Race Boards with multiple fins and the boards worked better than originally built with 1 fin. Proven by people trying and making change and now change is here for performance.
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very Nice Larry thanks for all the work.
You have me on the hook, I have a 2012 carbon 14x25 Starboard Ace, the board is a love hate relationship so fast and fun to paddle but a handful in the chop (tippy). I use this as my race board the tail being so pulled in could you move the fins forward? I have been using the board on my downwind runs it would be great to give it a little more stability.
What are your thoughts?
Thanks Bob
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very Nice Larry thanks for all the work.
You have me on the hook, I have a 2012 carbon 14x25 Starboard Ace, the board is a love hate relationship so fast and fun to paddle but a handful in the chop (tippy). I use this as my race board the tail being so pulled in could you move the fins forward? I have been using the board on my downwind runs it would be great to give it a little more stability.
What are your thoughts?
Thanks Bob
Thanks Bob for stepping in, Below is a pic of a guy in Washington running Probox Finsystems Race Twins with Ventral set up in his Starboard.
I have learned in the pass 2 years that placement of the Probox twins is based on a min and max tail width. What I mean by that is if the tail width is under 14" in width rail to rail, the Twin Fins work against each other. If the tail is wider than 16" then the aid of any of my 3 Ventral fins come into play which acts like a KICK FIN in a quad or Twin fin of a surfboard to increase forward projection. If you increase the Twin Fin size and Not add the Ventral then you have the same feel as a over fin tug like a center fin and you loose forward projection.
Also depending on the tail rocker and tail kick which are 2 different things going on will determine Twin Fin placement and single fin placement for that fact like a M&M board that has alot of roll and rocker with a wide tail the fin sets further forward. The Starboard which as alot of some of the similars, but having a narrower tail causes us to put the fins further forward lke the pic below.
Also looking at this Kings wider tail with Kick sucked with the Fin box back and became magic when I put another center box further forward like pics below.
So Bob your board the Twins are placed with the Aid of the center box more forward to work with that design.
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So Larry what is the science on the fin placement? Is there any toe-in and cant? How far away from the tail? And finally what are the options for the base? Thanks!
Starman, The Proboxes are set with a 1/8" toe but water does not recognize this as the pic below shows. The Probox Twin fins are reversed with the flat out. Look at the pic and notice the flat out and foil to the inside. This set up forces water to the tail and not the rail giving you one release point. If you run 2 center foiled fins then you create 2 release points which work against each other.
Starman, Cant is a NO!NO! which I learned using ProBox Finsystems Patented Canted Insert concept. When the Twin fins have any Cant (Tilt Out of Angle) the board has a tug feel like being over finned. When Twin Fins are straight up and down then free glide and increased speed came back to the same board with same fins which is the beauty of using a Finsystem like Probox to change the feel of your board. This indicates to me that More Cant makes the board feel like more fin reaction which slows you down. No Cant having the fin Straight up and down then makes the board feel less fin reaction head on increasing speed.
Fin base options are limited to structure and design options. Future Fin Base NOT a option of any kind because of Base locking design, limits fin base design and pre-canted Future Fin Base not a good function with this application. FCS weak structure option because of Twin Tab concept, so breakage would happen to the rear tab and Fail the system. Probox Finsystem can handle the fin base loads and design with NO LIMITATIONS, which was a over built system for extreme surfing and perfect for the loads of Standup Paddling.
The Science behind the Twin Fin concept in Paddle boarding is simple: A single fin is a Pivot point and a Twin Fin separates the Pivot point creating lateral stability.
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I need some guidance on toe-in angle on Twins for a 16-5 build. And if you Think ventral is neccessary on a board that Long.
55Nsup, Here's is some numbers to give you a idea how I place the ProBoxes with the aid of the center box. Yes 1/8 toe for ProBox setting but not Toe in real water of water flow recognizing the Toe because of reversed fin foil to guide water to tail.
Yes a Ventral box is always a good option because it aids in down sizing rear fin options for Drag. A Ventral also helps in stability with a long beam reach to react with rear fin. A Ventral fin is also a good fin to increase forward projection. Not knowing your board design and rocker the Ventral fin is a good option possiblities on the unlimited board designs.
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Larry , I am surprised to see the fins so far forward on most of those boards. My fins started way forward and with each board I have moved them way back because the tracking is better the greater the distance from the point of entry of the paddle to the fins. Although the fins forward are better for turning. Whats your experience with this ? It seems that for flat water paddling fin placement is not very critical. On the other hand surfing or down winding placement is everything !
You are right my friend, the reason these boards have the fins further forward are because of Tail width and bottom rocker and Tail kick. Most of the time rear fin placement I find 8 to 12 inches on average tails and 6 to 10 inches on wider tails.
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Or ends. It's certainly interesting, but unless a major production race board shows up with twins, I am doubtful this design will gain any traction. It's a lot time, fins and money to invest in, especially for those of us who seem prone to blow money every year on the latest and greatest. Remember when there use to be something called an unlimited board...
Never say never my friend. Once people understand the options, watch other wanna be fin companies and board companies claim they were the first to do Twin Fins and sell you their Koolaid with Big rider names and Fantasy Graphics. Production Board companies are the last to pick up to things the custom market dictates. Yes the Unlimited Class is growing again just like the Prone market is pushing strong again. Companies are afraid of change because they don't understand what they are making in product only how to make a quick BUCK on lack of market knowledge. I welcome change and spend hours of R&D time and retro fitting the old to make it new to completely understand what makes it tick with my own feet and hands to better educate the market to save a BUCK and survive. I don't care about what Production Companies are doing because I am custom and welcome Production Companies to follow and ask. I will help Productions Companies like Infinity who is making a change and testing the waters of the hidden potential of their boards. This why I Love what I do for over 40 years in real life.
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Like the beer commercial says, it's only weird if it doesn't work.
Agreed Kevin you will never know until you try: Bud Light NFL - "Basement" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMn6kTmZL80#)
I like being Weird to make it better!
Bud Light NFL - "All Time" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oiHPEzCa08#)
Probox Finsystems it's not just Weird, just Better!! The only expandable Patented Finsystem of the 21st Century. Don't waste your money on your next board with the standard outdated shipping finsystems of the past.
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Thanks for all the information. It made it very easy to understand how to measure up where to install the twins!
Thanks
Henrik F
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Have you guys tried this twin set up on a 14' pin tail yet?
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Have you guys tried this twin set up on a 14' pin tail yet?
Haven't yet, but just had someone request ProBox Twins for a Nsp Pin on my Sup Race Fins Facebook https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201793857740788&set=p.10201793857740788&type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201793857740788&set=p.10201793857740788&type=1&theater)
Nice to see people making the move and thinking outside the Box!!! Thanks for asking Paddle Damnit!
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Have you guys tried this twin set up on a 14' pin tail yet?
paddle damnit, This MHL Unlimited will be ProBox Twinned shortly that just arrived in Florida.
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Hi Larry,
Ok i understand twin placement and toe. Where is ventral fin? I am Planning On installing Twins and single center, then paddling to find standing zone, then I can intall ventral. I have also prepared board for a rudder steering system.
Thanks, Tom
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Hi Larry,
Ok i understand twin placement and toe. Where is ventral fin? I am Planning On installing Twins and single center, then paddling to find standing zone, then I can intall ventral. I have also prepared board for a rudder steering system.
Thanks, Tom
Tom, There are 2 ways of determining a Ventral Fin Placement. 1) if the Race board has never been ridden then the formula for that is 20" from the balance point of the board to the back of the 10" "Hi Surf" fin box made by Fibre Glas Fin Co. 2.) If you rode the board and know the sweet spot then the measurement is 15" from the riders big toe to the back of the 10" "Hi Surf" fin box. Thanks Tom, do you have a pic of your board because if you are going with a rudder then the fin box placement can be placed to use with a turning rudder or by its self without the aid of a rudder.
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Have you guys tried this twin set up on a 14' pin tail yet?
paddle damnit, This MHL Unlimited will be ProBox Twinned shortly that just arrived in Florida.
;D THAT LOOKS FAST!
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Check the proposed rules from the SUP Athletes Association. They restrict race boards to only a single fin. Surf class and unlimited class can have any amount.
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Check the proposed rules from the SUP Athletes Association. They restrict race boards to only a single fin. Surf class and unlimited class can have any amount.
You are right I seen the rules also. Funny how sponsored riders are always the front face of So call Rules, LOL! I asked Chase Kosterlitz the Lead guy I guess the questions are copied below 7 hours age how he determined the single fin Rule! No answer yet!!!!!
Click here to read the rules!!! http://supathletes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/SUPAARuleBookcomplete.pdf (http://supathletes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/SUPAARuleBookcomplete.pdf)
Qoute:
I am very excited to finally have the The Stand Up Paddle Athletes Association ready to serve SUP athletes around the world. Check out the site to see what it is all about and help spread the word!
- The Stand Up Paddle Athletes Association
supathletes.com
1Like · · Share
Kristin Thomas, Betsy May-Risner, Erick Gelbke and 19 others like this.
Sup Race Fins Chase, Nice work my friend. I found this rule to be interesting for sure: 2.06 All boards, except unlimited and surfboard class, must have only one fin. Maybe you can enlighten me what your thoughts are here. MahaloLarry W. Allison
7 hours ago · Like
Reid Inouye Just tested a quad 14' on open water and its faster than a twin. lol.
6 hours ago · Like
Larry W. Allison Chase your rules are not clear on straight dual foil, which is standard or twist foil, which is not standard like the fin you used at a Florida Race awhile back.
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LARRY,what are your thoughts on implementing your system to a prone paddleboard with a continuous convex hull?
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LARRY,what are your thoughts on implementing your system to a prone paddleboard with a continuous convex hull?
There is testing already going on with the Allison Ventral in the Prone Market. You are the 4th person in the last 2 weeks that inquired about Twins on a Prone Board. Here's a link showing the Ventral early on when I called the concept a Sup Dagger, but the word Dagger confused builders for placement comparing to it to Windsurfing which is Wrong Placement. Which is why I came up with the Name Allison Ventral Fin which stands for forward placement. Click in the link and you will see the review of the Allison Ventral being tested and approved by Barrierwaterman's in Florida.
http://www.barrierwaterman.com/long_distance_8.html (http://www.barrierwaterman.com/long_distance_8.html) Yes my system would have a place in your Hull design!
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Check the proposed rules from the SUP Athletes Association. They restrict race boards to only a single fin. Surf class and unlimited class can have any amount.
supdiscobay, Got a chance to talk to Chase Kosterlitz and one of the Representative's of the Advisory Board of Sup Athletes Association on the "Single Fin Ruling". All I can say right now is both parties are reviewing the Single Fin Rule in the Race Board class and will inform me of their final decision after trade show next week in Florida. I will let the guys here and others who emailed me along with a few board builders the out come as soon as I receive word from them at Sup Athletes Association. What I can say after a fairly long talk with one of the Representative's of the Advisory Board that I feel pretty optimistic the "Single Fin Rule" will change! Mahalo, Larry
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Check the proposed rules from the SUP Athletes Association. They restrict race boards to only a single fin. Surf class and unlimited class can have any amount.
supdiscobay, Got a chance to talk to Chase Kosterlitz and one of the Representative's of the Advisory Board of Sup Athletes Association on the "Single Fin Ruling". All I can say right now is both parties are reviewing the Single Fin Rule in the Race Board class and will inform me of their final decision after trade show next week in Florida. I will let the guys here and others who emailed me along with a few board builders the out come as soon as I receive word from them at Sup Athletes Association. What I can say after a fairly long talk with one of the Representative's of the Advisory Board that I feel pretty optimistic the "Single Fin Rule" will change! Mahalo, Larry
Larry, that's great. I couldn't see any reason why that rule (among many) was needed. All it seemed to accomplish was to lock in conventional (and maybe soon outdated) thinking. Thanks for lobbying for the change.
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Here is a new believer from Washington, Sharon a Paddle Instructor. When asked on Facebook how she likes this set up her answer below:
Gabriel Mccorry How does that track???
about an hour ago via mobile · Like
Sharon Ilstrup Tracks beautifully without any drag
31 minutes ago · Like
Gabriel Mccorry Sickk
31 minutes ago via mobile · Like
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HI Larry,
are you saying i can use ventra with the rudder ?
My plan was to install ventral after test paddle because board is designed by me in Shape 3D but more or less hand shaped- need to find balance point empirically.
Being a curious tinkerer- i was planning on testing on this first board:
Single fin
Rudder
Rudder with Ventral
Twins only
Twins with Ventral
Are you saying placement of ventral with Rudder is different than Twin with Ventral ?
Will send some pics- getting ready to install finboxes, vents and plugs...
T
Hi Larry,
Ok i understand twin placement and toe. Where is ventral fin? I am Planning On installing Twins and single center, then paddling to find standing zone, then I can intall ventral. I have also prepared board for a rudder steering system.
Thanks, Tom
Tom, There are 2 ways of determining a Ventral Fin Placement. 1) if the Race board has never been ridden then the formula for that is 20" from the balance point of the board to the back of the 10" "Hi Surf" fin box made by Fibre Glas Fin Co. 2.) If you rode the board and know the sweet spot then the measurement is 15" from the riders big toe to the back of the 10" "Hi Surf" fin box. Thanks Tom, do you have a pic of your board because if you are going with a rudder then the fin box placement can be placed to use with a turning rudder or by its self without the aid of a rudder.
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HI Larry,
are you saying i can use ventra with the rudder ?
My plan was to install ventral after test paddle because board is designed by me in Shape 3D but more or less hand shaped- need to find balance point empirically.
Being a curious tinkerer- i was planning on testing on this first board:
Single fin
Rudder
Rudder with Ventral
Twins only
Twins with Ventral
Are you saying placement of ventral with Rudder is different than Twin with Ventral ?
Will send some pics- getting ready to install finboxes, vents and plugs...
T
Hi Larry,
Ok i understand twin placement and toe. Where is ventral fin? I am Planning On installing Twins and single center, then paddling to find standing zone, then I can intall ventral. I have also prepared board for a rudder steering system.
Thanks, Tom
Tom, There are 2 ways of determining a Ventral Fin Placement. 1) if the Race board has never been ridden then the formula for that is 20" from the balance point of the board to the back of the 10" "Hi Surf" fin box made by Fibre Glas Fin Co. 2.) If you rode the board and know the sweet spot then the measurement is 15" from the riders big toe to the back of the 10" "Hi Surf" fin box. Thanks Tom, do you have a pic of your board because if you are going with a rudder then the fin box placement can be placed to use with a turning rudder or by its self without the aid of a rudder.
Formula for Ventral Fin never changes my friend! Ventral Placement is 20" forward of Balance point to back of 10" Hi Fin Box! Mahalo,Larry
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Another exciting change of events with New Probox Stealth Twins. Here are 2 new 14 Infinity Race. 1 is Dave's personal board and the other Red board is Brendan's. Coming up will be some vido of Dave on his board and first comments from Dave. Enjoy the ride my friends.
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Qoute from Dave Boehne:
Filmed with the phone.
Wasn't intending on using for a post but upon closer look was very impressed with the little amount of wake and cavitation "hobby horse" on the tail block with a decent amount of torque applied. Wish we took more....
We did 3 hours of testing this AM. This particular clip Dave Boehne is riding a thruster in back with a front ventral fin. 4 fins total.
Will do a full review in the coming weeks. You can see pics of this board on Larry Allison and ProBox Finsystems pages. #infinityspeedfreaks
Video of Dave on 4 fin ProBox Stealths/Allison Ventral setup
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=738188592876701&set=vb.301593443202887&type=2&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=738188592876701&set=vb.301593443202887&type=2&theater)
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Dave Boehne from Infinity joining the Twin Fin revolution!
Another one with same set up thruster rear and ventral front. 4 fins total.
When you watch these videos, watch the water from the tail. board tracking and pick up and glide of the board after Dave stopped paddling.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=738196796209214&set=vb.301593443202887&type=2&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=738196796209214&set=vb.301593443202887&type=2&theater)
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Good showing at Hano Hano Race this past week end in San Diego with ProBox Race Twins on Infinity Boards. Just got calls from South East of another couple of Pros added ProBox Twins to their boards will post and update as it happens. Here you can see Brendan Light and Dave Boehne on these 14'by 24" wide boards moving with Ease! Both guys finished in top 12 over all! Strong Racing group this week end.
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I am going over to the dark side. Twin fins/ ventral getting installed on my 12'6" x 27" NSP/DC. Testing starts on it next week, stay tuned should be fun!
Jjill
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Thought I would share some footage of me foiling and fine sanding some ProBox Race Twins. Enjoy the ride my friends, https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152311814980934&set=p.10152311814980934&type=2&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152311814980934&set=p.10152311814980934&type=2&theater)
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Off to the Races! A batch of Chill Probox Twins sitting in drying racks.
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Larry, I know this thread is on the twins and ventrals but I saw the new fins you are doing on your facebook. I got a Bat fin and Ninja from you and would like to call tomorrow about how the new Bat fin would work in US fin box on Fanatic inflatable and My ATR11 12'2 Hobie. Start a thread on this new line of fins ;D THANKS
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John Andel Does the ventral fin clear the water when you're doing a buoy turn?
Like · Reply · 13 minutes ago
Infinity SUP most definitely. if you get lazy i guess it could get caught but a pretty standard lift of the tail no prob. this placement of the ventral is critical and has been a year of testing to come up with our formula and varies from board design to board design based on the bottom. is it better? can't say. all i know there is definitely some VERY cool things happening.
Larry Allison helped us add a few more ponies under the hood. #infinityspeedfreaks
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=749212175107676&set=vb.301593443202887&type=2&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=749212175107676&set=vb.301593443202887&type=2&theater)
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By popular demand I have created a install album for everyone to follow to Install ProBox Finsystem Twin Fin set up on your Race Board. Enjoy my friends and Thanks for believing.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152278551023545.1073741833.85121998544&type=1
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Guys Aren't these illegal in the SUPAA rules stating boards may only have 1 fin?
i'm confused and believe the paddler makes more difference in overall speed in ALL conditions than any piece of equipment
but that might just be ME
JimK
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Jim, per the SUPAA 2014 Rule Book, it appears you are right.
But, in any event, I'll have my twin-fin Fanatic at the Freezin' For a Reason race later this month so you can experience this for yourself if you like.
Chapter 1: Equipment
Article 1: Application of this chapter.
This chapter applies to all surfboard shape, 12’6 and 14’ foot and unlimited boards.
Article 2: Board Restrictions
2.06 All boards, except unlimited and surfboard class, must have only one fin.
2.07 All boards that are currently in production or that have already been made will remain legal until 2016.
Article 3: Board Classes Defined
3.09 ‘Fins’ are defined as any external attachment or protrusion on the underwater surface area of a board that is 6 cm (2.4 inch) or greater in length.
3.13 An ‘Attachment’ is any component added to the surface of the board hull, such as but not limited to: fins, handles, foils, etc.
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Jim, per the SUPAA 2014 Rule Book, it appears you are right.
But, in any event, I'll have my twin-fin Fanatic at the Freezin' For a Reason race later this month so you can experience this for yourself if you like.
Chapter 1: Equipment
Article 1: Application of this chapter.
This chapter applies to all surfboard shape, 12’6 and 14’ foot and unlimited boards.
Article 2: Board Restrictions
2.06 All boards, except unlimited and surfboard class, must have only one fin.
2.07 All boards that are currently in production or that have already been made will remain legal until 2016.
Article 3: Board Classes Defined
3.09 ‘Fins’ are defined as any external attachment or protrusion on the underwater surface area of a board that is 6 cm (2.4 inch) or greater in length.
3.13 An ‘Attachment’ is any component added to the surface of the board hull, such as but not limited to: fins, handles, foils, etc.
Bean and JimK, The Single fin rule was just a thought thrown in by SUPAA for simplicity. I have email from Chase and the advisory board of SUPAA that the single fin will change as I stated earlier on in this Thread. Mahalo,Larry
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Jim, per the SUPAA 2014 Rule Book, it appears you are right.
But, in any event, I'll have my twin-fin Fanatic at the Freezin' For a Reason race later this month so you can experience this for yourself if you like.
Chapter 1: Equipment
Article 1: Application of this chapter.
This chapter applies to all surfboard shape, 12’6 and 14’ foot and unlimited boards.
Article 2: Board Restrictions
2.06 All boards, except unlimited and surfboard class, must have only one fin.
2.07 All boards that are currently in production or that have already been made will remain legal until 2016.
Article 3: Board Classes Defined
3.09 ‘Fins’ are defined as any external attachment or protrusion on the underwater surface area of a board that is 6 cm (2.4 inch) or greater in length.
3.13 An ‘Attachment’ is any component added to the surface of the board hull, such as but not limited to: fins, handles, foils, etc.
Bean and JimK, The Single fin rule was just a thought thrown in by SUPAA for simplicity. I have email from Chase and the advisory board of SUPAA that the single fin will change as I stated earlier on in this Thread. Mahalo,Larry
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That's great Larry. As currently written, the rule seems pretty restrictive.
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That's great Larry. As currently written, the rule seems pretty restrictive.
Bean here is some of my exchange with Chase of SUPAA!!
Quote from Chase K in a email:
The 2014 Rulebook is designed to be amended so that we can work toward a solid foundation in 2015.
SUPAA is much more than an association trying to ban mutli-fin boards. We are trying to establish international standards for racing rules, equipment and instruction. With such a big and fast-growing sport it is important for us to listen to our members and the industry personnel in order to create a path toward success.
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Guys Aren't these illegal in the SUPAA rules stating boards may only have 1 fin?
i'm confused and believe the paddler makes more difference in overall speed in ALL conditions than any piece of equipment
but that might just be ME
JimK
JimK, Interesting comment about equipment my friend. True the Rider is a KEY factor, but adding better equipment enhances the riders experience along with their results most of the time. Just a thought! (-: Larry
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Wanted to share another ride review from another guy using the multi fin Race Board set up with ProBox Finsystems. This is Johns Board in the Pics, Hovie Comet. Enjoy the Ride my friends! Mahalo, Larry
Quote by John Schuck from Dana Point:
John Schuck Hovie Comet Raceboard with the Triple / Ventral set-up by Sup Race Fins. Working with Larry W. Allison on the best configuration for the Comet Raceboard, we have hit a winner using three (3) 4x10's on the Triple Rear and the Medium or Large Ventral on the front. Improved stability with the Ventral and improved projection and decreased drag with the Triple Rear. I experimented using only two (2) outer fins on the rear, and noticed that the projection was not there, switched to the three (3) ... that is the key on a quality set-up. Thank you Larry for the continued support and sharing your expertise.
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I agree SUPAA rules are kinda a joke "Why not multifins?" I bet they track better and thus faster. I still say the paddler is the MOST important component of speed. But I do agree why not make equipment (like your fins) that enhances everyone's experience
I'll look forward to meeting you at Freezin for a Reason! I know of several ZONERS that are planning to attend Fun, Fun, Fun ONLY 16 days !!!!!
jimK
www.extremewindsurfing.com
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Hi!
Just read this in the SUPAA rules:
3.09 ‘Fins’ are defined as any external attachment or protrusion on the underwater surface
area of a board.
3.13 An ‘Attachment’ is any component added to the surface of the board hull, such as but
not limited to: fins, handles, foils, etc.
Should I understand the rules and regulations that multiple fins are allowed on a raceboard?
Many thanks
Henrik F
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Confirmed from the advisory board today that the"SINGLE FIN RULE IS GONE"
http://supathletes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/version1.1%C2%A9The-Stand-Up-Paddle-Athletes-Association.pdf
Thanks my friends your comments in this thread early on I turned in to the advisory board when requesting a answer why a Single Fin Rule was even in the Rules to start!
Mahalo,Larry
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Thanks Larry, that's great to see!
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Thanks Bean!
Quote from Chip Bock of Florida:
Larry W. Allison Sup Race Fins - Stealth Twin Fin set for racing - NO SUBSTITUTE - See you in the water - Aloha
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Confirmed from the advisory board today that the"SINGLE FIN RULE IS GONE"
http://supathletes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/version1.1%C2%A9The-Stand-Up-Paddle-Athletes-Association.pdf (http://supathletes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/version1.1%C2%A9The-Stand-Up-Paddle-Athletes-Association.pdf)
Thanks my friends your comments in this thread early on I turned in to the advisory board when requesting a answer why a Single Fin Rule was even in the Rules to start!
Mahalo,Larry
Interesting that SUPAA was still claiming on March 13th on their facebook page that the one-fin rule still stands, and haven't retracted that belief to the public:
tand Up Paddle Athletes Association (https://www.facebook.com/supathletes) One fin, must be fixed, cannot be foiling.
Like (https://www.facebook.com/supathletes#) · March 13 at 10:29am (https://www.facebook.com/supathletes/posts/747079235600?reply_comment_id=1906353&total_comments=1)
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Confirmed from the advisory board today that the"SINGLE FIN RULE IS GONE"
http://supathletes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/version1.1%C2%A9The-Stand-Up-Paddle-Athletes-Association.pdf (http://supathletes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/version1.1%C2%A9The-Stand-Up-Paddle-Athletes-Association.pdf)
Thanks my friends your comments in this thread early on I turned in to the advisory board when requesting a answer why a Single Fin Rule was even in the Rules to start!
Mahalo,Larry
Interesting that SUPAA was still claiming on March 13th on their facebook page that the one-fin rule still stands, and haven't retracted that belief to the public:
tand Up Paddle Athletes Association (https://www.facebook.com/supathletes) One fin, must be fixed, cannot be foiling.
Like (https://www.facebook.com/supathletes#) · March 13 at 10:29am (https://www.facebook.com/supathletes/posts/747079235600?reply_comment_id=1906353&total_comments=1)
Mike, I talked to one of the advisors on the advisory board which confirmed the single fin had be dropped. The new update of rules are here my friend:
http://supathletes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/version1.1%C2%A9The-Stand-Up-Paddle-Athletes-Association.pdf
Also updated information from that facebook post on March 13th Facebook Qoute:
Mike Dowd Why the one-fin limit? Multiple fins could be a great boon to the sport. They potentially can increase speed and stability at FAR less cost than other ways to accomplish that. Has there been such a problem (or does SUPAA perceive multiple fins to be such a problem) that it needs to ban them from competition? Has anyone ever lost a race to an inferior paddler because the inferior paddler used 2 fins? And if so, so what? You don't need to be a millionaire to afford 2 fins. This sport is far too young for anyone to start banning multiple fins.
Like · 11 hours ago
Mike Dowd Actually, SUPAA should read its own rulebook. The fin limit was apparently removed well before your March 13th claim that it still existed, thankfully.
Like · 11 hours ago · Edited
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Confirmed from the advisory board today that the"SINGLE FIN RULE IS GONE"
http://supathletes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/version1.1%C2%A9The-Stand-Up-Paddle-Athletes-Association.pdf (http://supathletes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/version1.1%C2%A9The-Stand-Up-Paddle-Athletes-Association.pdf)
Thanks my friends your comments in this thread early on I turned in to the advisory board when requesting a answer why a Single Fin Rule was even in the Rules to start!
Mahalo,Larry
Interesting that SUPAA was still claiming on March 13th on their facebook page that the one-fin rule still stands, and haven't retracted that belief to the public:
tand Up Paddle Athletes Association (https://www.facebook.com/supathletes) One fin, must be fixed, cannot be foiling.
Like (https://www.facebook.com/supathletes#) · March 13 at 10:29am (https://www.facebook.com/supathletes/posts/747079235600?reply_comment_id=1906353&total_comments=1)
Mike, I talked to one of the advisors on the advisory board which confirmed the single fin had be dropped. The new update of rules are here my friend:
http://supathletes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/version1.1%C2%A9The-Stand-Up-Paddle-Athletes-Association.pdf (http://supathletes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/version1.1%C2%A9The-Stand-Up-Paddle-Athletes-Association.pdf)
Also updated information from that facebook post on March 13th Facebook Qoute:
Mike Dowd Why the one-fin limit? Multiple fins could be a great boon to the sport. They potentially can increase speed and stability at FAR less cost than other ways to accomplish that. Has there been such a problem (or does SUPAA perceive multiple fins to be such a problem) that it needs to ban them from competition? Has anyone ever lost a race to an inferior paddler because the inferior paddler used 2 fins? And if so, so what? You don't need to be a millionaire to afford 2 fins. This sport is far too young for anyone to start banning multiple fins.
Like · 11 hours ago
Mike Dowd Actually, SUPAA should read its own rulebook. The fin limit was apparently removed well before your March 13th claim that it still existed, thankfully.
Like · 11 hours ago · Edited
Thanks, Larry. I'd read your post earlier about how the one-fin limit had been dropped (thanks to your efforts) which was great. Then I saw yesterday on the SUPAA facebook page that SUPAA was still telling people on March 13th (and still haven't corrected themselves) that there IS a one-fin limit. So I commented on facebook. Then I read the revised rules, that confirmed that they'd made the change in early March.
I guess the question to me is, why isn't SUPAA reading its own rule book? It's no service to people who are asking for rule clarifications on SUPAA'S official facebook page if SUPAA itself isn't aware of its own current rules, and is passing on bad information. It makes me question their ability to make rules when they can't even read them.
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First in Sweden and in Europe!? :D
Finally I have had my boards retrofitted with TWINS and and AVS finboxes. I haven't tried them out yet and the pics are taken first thing when I got them off the roof rack.
Another thing I didn't know is that Fanatic and probably other companies that have that "brushed Carbon" look can stop doing that now. The bottomside is just black filler :(
I looked up the specs and looked closer and the carbon is limited to rails and deck...
Henrik F
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Today I tested my 12'6 fiitted with an AVS fin and TWINS. Just for an hour because it was freezing cold both in the water and in the air. But one thing I noticed is that when pushed the board from side to side with my feet when paddling something caught the board and adjusted it so it was almost directly flat to the water again. Like a stabilizer somehow. That was my first impression :) I will be back with more when the weather allows some more testing.
Henrik F
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Quote from Dave Boehne:
Got my new 12'6" today from the fin lord Larry Allison up at Fibre Glass Fin Co. Got equipped with the twin/front ventral option.
Still moving forward with testing these set ups and there's been some cool stuff happening under the hood.
Check the new custom "click in" box plug when not in use.
Fun thing about being one of the little guys in this SUP game is we are versatile and mobile as we can react to progression and design on the fly. It's not about units, it's about moving forward. You don't know until you go!
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The "S" Flex on the Gladiator Stealth Twins.
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Testing 1-2, Gladiator Stealths for 12'6" Race Boards for in and out of Surf conditions. This Triple delight "S" Flex set is designed to run without a front Ventral Fin.
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That "Triple Delight" looks KILLA'
Hey Larry, Howzit?
That set up, without the need for a front ventral fin is what I've been waiting for, since I surf my 12'6" Coastal Cruiser.
Keep it coming!
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Measuring it up in centimetres and installing on my Fanatic 14' Flatwater here in Sweden :)
Henrik F
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Nice work Henrik!
Larry, can you share your theory about the flex in the Gladiator Stealth? And, do you have any thoughts about the minimalist fin being used by Kai (MFC Sprint 5)?
To me the Sprint seems to emulate the lower profile design (keel) of the twin-fin.
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Nice work Henrik!
Larry, can you share your theory about the flex in the Gladiator Stealth? And, do you have any thoughts about the minimalist fin being used by Kai (MFC Sprint 5)?
To me the Sprint seems to emulate the lower profile design (keel) of the twin-fin.
The Gladiator Stealths are designed to give alittle more bite in the tail because of rocker or tail volume without adding much drag or over fin tug feel. Which is the reason for the "S" Flex. Flex fins are dsigned to hold like a larger fin and turn like a smaller fin. The task is to fine the proper flex in depth combo to trick water that the fin is really 5" but turns and feels like a 4" fin would.
As for Kai's fin. It's for Kai. Not to much more I would say out of respect for Kai. Mahalo, Larry
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Nice work Henrik!
Thanks Bean!
Henrik F
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And so it begins my friends. Future Fins starting to take some of their same fins and move to the Ventral concept which we have been doing for 5 years now. Stoke to see Thomas following and testing,thought I would share this with the guys out there sitting on the fence and thinking should I or Shouldn't I put in a Ventral (Front fin box) Fin.
Quote from Facebook Page of Thomas Maximus.
Thomas Maximus Shahinian
6 hrs
Testing some new futures fin nubster combos for crosswind conditions & better tracking when you want it for flats & sprint formats... and out for downwinding on the new prototype Riviera Stealth 14!
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And so it begins my friends. Future Fins starting to take some of their same fins and move to the Ventral concept which we have been doing for 5 years now. Stoke to see Thomas following and testing,thought I would share this with the guys out there sitting on the fence and thinking should I or Shouldn't I put in a Ventral (Front fin box) Fin.
Quote from Facebook Page of Thomas Maximus.
Thomas Maximus Shahinian
6 hrs
Testing some new futures fin nubster combos for crosswind conditions & better tracking when you want it for flats & sprint formats... and out for downwinding on the new prototype Riviera Stealth 14!
Lets not forget FCS LOL!!! All I can say is Stoked to see others following even if they don't know why!
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Stoke when I get a call from a guy like Sam Pa'e for my help. Humbled and honored to have the Movement begin! Mahalo, Larry
Quote from Sam Pa'e:
Sam Pa'e
March 5
My latest SUP race board project..Following Larry Allison Ventura twin concept...
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Henrik,
That board looks awesome. Can't wait to hear how it rides.
Larry,
Can't wait to get mine and try them out on my SIC, just need a day off of work eventually. what is the quote, "imitation is the greatest form of flattery" :o
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Henrik,
That board looks awesome. Can't wait to hear how it rides.
Larry,
Can't wait to get mine and try them out on my SIC, just need a day off of work eventually. what is the quote, "imitation is the greatest form of flattery" :o
Tuna, Can't wait to see the SIC Twinned UP!!
"imitation is the greatest form of flattery" "We say that they arejust playing follow the Leader"
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So now I've been doing some testing on my 12'6" and I started out with a small AVS and and the small TWINS. I think the TWINS are something like depth 4" and 6 or 8" base. That stabilized the board a lot. Like if something grabbed it and gently put it straight again.
Then I changed to a medium sized AVS and TWINS that are 4" depth and 10" base and it was even more stable and the tracking was bit improved too.
The other day the sea back home here was kind of rough. Whitecaps and everything. I kept the medium AVS and the bigger TWINS and that was really great. I got in to get a rest and just for fun I added a small AVS in the centerbox and got out on the water again. Suddenly I could paddle in any direction without being pushed by the chop and whitecaps. The board was planted in the direction I wanted it to go. The front end of the board wasn't pushed. The tail didn't slide :) :) :) It just went the way I wanted it to go! ;D This is brillant. Now I am going to try out my 14' and see what fins that one want.
Henrik F
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Time to convert my Vec Larry. Lets talk, I'll get you the pictures and dims..... 8)
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Time to convert my Vec Larry. Lets talk, I'll get you the pictures and dims..... 8)
Looking forward to it my friend! Mahalo
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Out testing my Fanatic 14' flatwater carbon. First I tried with a small AVS up front and smaller TWINS. Great stability and speed. Then I added a small AVS in the ordinary centerbox. Wind about 15 knots and no problem paddling in any direction.
First pic is with set up number one and second is when small AVS added to rear centerbox. Interesting difference.
Henrik F
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Out with my paddle bro Larry Allison yesterday testing his new prototype Gladiator keel fin. I recently added an Infinity unlimited sup to my quiver. It's 17'6" and 27.5" wide. I've ridden it a handful of times on flat water at Alamitos Bay with a single fin. It's a very different kind of board that I'm falling in love with. Larry was kind enough to retro fit it with pro boxes and this was it's maiden voyage with multiple fins. Also the first time in rougher water at Cabrillo Beach with some moderate wind chop and boat wakes. This is the first UL sup to have pro boxes, according to Sir Larry.
A great challenge for me in evaluating equipment is the subjective nature of the experience (i.e. "It feels different"). Probably a better comparison would have been to go back to Alamitos, but I really wanted to see how the set up would work in rougher conditions. What I've discovered about ULs is that they track amazingly no matter the fin size. In fact, the smaller the size, the better.
With just the 2 twins in place, the board tracked well as usual, but also allowed me to feel balanced and stable. It was similar to the feel of my Big Joe Bark 14'x30" with twins & ventral in front.
Larry then added his new creation, the Gladiator keel fin to the middle box and we tried again. The board felt more "efficient" with better glide and much better projection. Something new I noticed was the bow wake with the 2 different trials. With just the 2 twins, the wake was more intermittent and "mushy". With the 3 fins in place, the bow wake was well defined and consistently present (the image was taken in the marina but it was the same in choppy water). Larry attributed this to "projection" with the board maintaining better forward movement, while with 2 fins the wake would appear with each paddle stroke.
The next test will be in the open ocean with different ventrals.
Aloha!
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It might just be my own weirdness, but what I like best about this multi-fin experimentation is that it's 100% contrary to the "conventional wisdom" that using more than one fin is for surfing only. It's not only doing something different, it's doing something that has been "proven" to be wrong, to the point that almost nobody questions that a single fin is best.
So, if you see someone paddling (no surfing) on a board with 2 or 3 fins, they're clueless, and way behind on the knowledge curve. Unless they're geniuses, and way ahead.
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It might just be my own weirdness, but what I like best about this multi-fin experimentation is that it's 100% contrary to the "conventional wisdom" that using more than one fin is for surfing only. It's not only doing something different, it's doing something that has been "proven" to be wrong, to the point that almost nobody questions that a single fin is best.
So, if you see someone paddling (no surfing) on a board with 2 or 3 fins, they're clueless, and way behind on the knowledge curve. Unless they're geniuses, and way ahead.
Mike, It is time my friend! This 3 fin combo on this unlimited is the set-up for your Ron House Costal Runner. Remember I said in time I would figure it out for these Bop, Rocker Wave combos which are way different than the 14' Race Boards. I am there, time to bring your board in my friend and Enjoy the ride to another level of that board. Mahalo,
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Mike, It is time my friend! This 3 fin combo on this unlimited is the set-up for your Ron House Costal Runner. Remember I said in time I would figure it out for these Bop, Rocker Wave combos which are way different than the 14' Race Boards. I am there, time to bring your board in my friend and Enjoy the ride to another level of that board. Mahalo,
Larry,
I'm Down!
Anxious to try out the 3 fin combo on my Coastal Cruiser. Tracking and stability in the ocean, and surfability once I arrive at the reefs is what I'm talking about!
I'll give you a shout this week.
BroDog--what's up? Sweet Infinity you got there! Hope to see you in the water again (Adler Paddler last year).
Mike
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The reason I'm so interested is primarily the mention of additional stability but i love the contrarian nature of this as well. The feeling I've always gotten from long fast boards is that tail release is so important. The shots I'm seeing of narrower better defined wakes is intriguing for sure. And if the stability from twins allows for a narrower board that would still let you put the hammer down...what's that worth?
My first use is going to be for my downwind board.....that could be golden for me. More stable and better surfer....won't hurt to give it a shot.
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Larry, I just picked up an 18'6, the board that Danny rode to victory in the BOP 2010 distance race. I think it's time to drop it off and let you do some magic to it. I saw BroDog's Infinity at Vitamin Blue a few weeks ago, getting custom fitted for a bag and that is one beautiful board. Nice to see you applying the same concepts on unlimited boards.
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Larry, I just picked up an 18'6, the board that Danny rode to victory in the BOP 2010 distance race. I think it's time to drop it off and let you do some magic to it. I saw BroDog's Infinity at Vitamin Blue a few weeks ago, getting custom fitted for a bag and that is one beautiful board. Nice to see you applying the same concepts on unlimited boards.
Ready when you are my friend. Mahalo, Larry
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Mahalo Mike & Kayadogg!!! I'm loving on my UL. Casey Gotcher asked me what I would name it. Seemed odd to name a sup board, but I went with it and came up with the "Incredible Hulk"…haha. All fun.
Glad you're stoked on multi-fins. I've got the full set up on my Bark 14 for past 2 yrs and love the versatility it offers in various water conditions. I guarantee you won't regret it.
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Mike, It is time my friend! This 3 fin combo on this unlimited is the set-up for your Ron House Costal Runner. Remember I said in time I would figure it out for these Bop, Rocker Wave combos which are way different than the 14' Race Boards. I am there, time to bring your board in my friend and Enjoy the ride to another level of that board. Mahalo,
Larry,
I'm Down!
Anxious to try out the 3 fin combo on my Coastal Cruiser. Tracking and stability in the ocean, and surfability once I arrive at the reefs is what I'm talking about!
I'll give you a shout this week.
BroDog--what's up? Sweet Infinity you got there! Hope to see you in the water again (Adler Paddler last year).
Mike
Mike, This is a pic Brodog took last Sat. of me on my 10'6" with the 3 fin set up and running a Ventral also into the current and cross wind. the board moved like a glassey day. Before I wouldn't go out day like this.
Quote from BroDog:
One more of LA. I was impressed how his 10'6" skims so quickly across the water. This pic doesn't do it justice. Should have taken a video
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So Larry, you're Saying that on my 16-5 x26 I should try a twin setup with smaller fin in big middle box to make a tripple? Whaddya think of putting the ventral i have in the middle.
Pretty soon I have spent more on fins than anything else on this board :o
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So Larry, you're Saying that on my 16-5 x26 I should try a twin setup with smaller fin in big middle box to make a tripple? Whaddya think of putting the ventral i have in the middle.
Pretty soon I have spent more on fins than anything else on this board :o
Yes 55, small Ventral would help since the unlimited track so well all ready. Just know after I rode Brodog Infinity Unlimited with head current and moderate side wind, Ventral fin would have been nice in at that time. The reason the center fin has changed to the triple is that the first stage of using Ventral fins it worked better on some boards than others. But as I got things ore dialed that is the fin plan shape to give the board proper projection and stability with speed. Hope that helps my friend and feel free to ask any questions you may have.
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I just recieved my MHL with twin/ ventral boxes. I'm looking forward to trying it out. Thanks for the advice and help Larry.
(http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t450/SpaceWrangler2/MHL/IMG_5363.jpg) (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/SpaceWrangler2/media/MHL/IMG_5363.jpg.html)(http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t450/SpaceWrangler2/MHL/IMG_5351.jpg) (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/SpaceWrangler2/media/MHL/IMG_5351.jpg.html)
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It might just be my own weirdness, but what I like best about this multi-fin experimentation is that it's 100% contrary to the "conventional wisdom" that using more than one fin is for surfing only. It's not only doing something different, it's doing something that has been "proven" to be wrong, to the point that almost nobody questions that a single fin is best.
So, if you see someone paddling (no surfing) on a board with 2 or 3 fins, they're clueless, and way behind on the knowledge curve. Unless they're geniuses, and way ahead.
Mike, Your board is almost ready to hit the Coast ProBox Finsystem Style with Triple Delight Twin fin set up my friend. Thanks for believing in me and taking your board to another level. Mahalo, Larry
Larry--looks like you replied to me, but meant this for another Mike (mik911?) who I'm jealous of because of the new fin setup you're doing for him!
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It might just be my own weirdness, but what I like best about this multi-fin experimentation is that it's 100% contrary to the "conventional wisdom" that using more than one fin is for surfing only. It's not only doing something different, it's doing something that has been "proven" to be wrong, to the point that almost nobody questions that a single fin is best.
So, if you see someone paddling (no surfing) on a board with 2 or 3 fins, they're clueless, and way behind on the knowledge curve. Unless they're geniuses, and way ahead.
Mike, Your board is almost ready to hit the Coast ProBox Finsystem Style with Triple Delight Twin fin set up my friend. Thanks for believing in me and taking your board to another level. Mahalo, Larry
Larry--looks like you replied to me, but meant this for another Mike (mik911?) who I'm jealous of because of the new fin setup you're doing for him!
Opps, You are right Mike!
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Yeah, I'm stoked at the progress on my board, Larry!
Looking good so far!
Keep us posted!
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Yeah, I'm stoked at the progress on my board, Larry!
Looking good so far!
Keep us posted!
Mike, Your Ron House is Proboxed my friend. I will have your Triple delight fins done in a couple of days then I am going to test ride your board before you pick it up. Mahalo
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Sweeet!!
Let's hear how she rides.
See you in a few days.
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Went out with Larry Allison this morning to help test Mik911's new Probox fin set-up. I'm not familiar with a hybrid board like the Ron House Coastal Cruiser. I primarily ride race boards and fun surf shape boards. Its always fun to try something different. The Coastal Cruiser looks like a great downwinder and surfer.
Today's conditions at Cabrillo was not great for sup paddling. Not another paddler in the water. Yet the wind chop and swells coming into the harbor acted like a mini downwinder for us to test with. Paddling upwind was work, which is expected. The fin set-up of 2 Chill twins & Larry's new invention, the Gladiator keel made for a stable and dry paddle into the wind. I felt confident paddling out. Without this fin set-up, I guessing it would have been quite tippy and unpleasant.
Turning around for the downwind part of the run, I was surprised at the quickness and planing of this board. The board seemed to jump at the chance to go fast on the small swells. Not sure if this was because it was a downwind board, the new fin set-up, or both. Larry commented that the tail of the board rode high as opposed to s single fin, which sucks the board down into the water. I'm sure Larry can explain this to us non-techies.
I imagine the best evaluator would be Mik911 who owns this board and is familiar with how it normally handles. Definitely work with Larry Mik911 on how you board functions. Larry loves dialing in his Probox system for his loyal followers.
Aloha!
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Bro--thanks for the pics! and review.
I spoke to Larry today, and am anxious to paddle my 'new' board!
Will be picking it up tomorrow (Yess!!)
Full report to follow.......
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Picked up my Ron House Coastal Cruiser today from Larry, with a fresh set of ProBox + Triple delight fins.
The set up looks killer, and workmanship is top notch. I was anxious to get it in the water, so went directly to my usual spot in Torrance Beach, where I paddle up/down the beach breaks and around the peninsula, surfing sand bars and reefs.
1-2 ft swell, 5 knot winds, and some surface texture today.
My first impression upon hopping up on my board was "WOW"!! This thing is super stable. Much more so than with any previous single fin on this same board. The dramatic increase in stability made my board feel like it was 1-2" wider!! I previously paddled this board with the stock Riviera "SR" fin, Gladiator Hybrid, and Ninja single fins. The current Triple Delight felt rock solid in the surf zone and light chop. Tracking was straight and true also.
Paddled into a few waves, and the 12'6" responded confidently. Coming off the bottom turn, the board shot back up the face, and the fins locked into the upper 1/3 of the wave face, with no slippage. Dang....this is cool!!
Couldn't resist paddling back out and repeating same scenario:)
Bonus: Kelp shedding is a non-issue with these shorter, and raked fins.
Our rocky coastline is heavily surrounded by thick mats of kelp. The fins skimmed over the carpet with no hiccups.
Thanks Larry--this Triple Delight set up is perfect!!!!
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This is the setup I tried today. Yesterday I did a short paddle with a Danny Ching single fin. In similar conditions.
I guess you have to be a decent and experienced paddler, because a regular wannabe like me can't tell any difference in stability or tracking. No idea if there's any speed difference. I figured I would feel some stability I or tracking difference easier, the way you guys are raving.
It looks cool, doesn't hit the odd rock that sticks up here, and sheds the weeds we get too. So still some advantages. ;)
Picture at bottom was yesterday, choppier by same wind.
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This is the setup I tried today. Yesterday I did a short paddle with a Danny Ching single fin. In similar conditions.
I guess you have to be a decent and experienced paddler, because a regular wannabe like me can't tell any difference in stability or tracking. No idea if there's any speed difference. I figured I would feel some stability I or tracking difference easier, the way you guys are raving.
It looks cool, doesn't hit the odd rock that sticks up here, and sheds the weeds we get too. So still some advantages. ;)
Picture at bottom was yesterday, choppier by same wind.
Interesting 55, Can you take a pic looking down at your fin set up from the tail standing up. The angle in the pic is misleading to me to check your placement. Mahalo, Larry
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This is the setup I tried today. Yesterday I did a short paddle with a Danny Ching single fin. In similar conditions.
I guess you have to be a decent and experienced paddler, because a regular wannabe like me can't tell any difference in stability or tracking. No idea if there's any speed difference. I figured I would feel some stability I or tracking difference easier, the way you guys are raving.
It looks cool, doesn't hit the odd rock that sticks up here, and sheds the weeds we get too. So still some advantages. ;)
Picture at bottom was yesterday, choppier by same wind.
55, Not seeing the straight down angle pic, I am guessing by your pic that your Race Board Fin set up is like a Surfboard 2 Plus on lay out having the front fins forward with the center fin back as your pivot point. This would cause your front fins to react and the center fin then would react secondly working against the front set up on a Race Board. Also your fin toe looks over angled especially if you set it off the back of the ProBox and not back of the trailing edge of the Twins like in the diagram below! Another thing is there a Ventral fin on that board because over 12'6" Board length a Ventral plays a key roll because of the beam reach from the rear fins needed for projection. Look forward to your response to help you ge your Nice looking Board dialed in.
Instruction lay out for ProBox Twins on a Raceboard.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152278551023545.1073741833.85121998544&type=1
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Yes, the twins are forward the centerbox. This is because I had to put in the hd foam inserts before I had full instructions, and the intention was never to use center fin together with twins, but put in the forward ventral.
Board is 16-5, and narrow tail, so to get distance between twins, I moved them forward.
Then I have seen you are using the trifin setup. I tried it out, So the three boxes are not the way you recommend.
And looking at those fotos you show in link, I probably got the Toe- in wrong too. I looked at some other instructions and put 1/8" toe over the length of the jig, not 1/8" over the length of a 10" (?) box. That 10" (?) dimension is not called out.
Given toe-in is too much, what to do? Can it help to use the angled inserts? Is there any point in installing forward box for the ventral?
My first SUP build, so ive learned something. Thinking of building another one next winter.
Thanks for helping an amateur.
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Yes, the twins are forward the centerbox. This is because I had to put in the hd foam inserts before I had full instructions, and the intention was never to use center fin together with twins, but put in the forward ventral.
Board is 16-5, and narrow tail, so to get distance between twins, I moved them forward.
Then I have seen you are using the trifin setup. I tried it out, So the three boxes are not the way you recommend.
And looking at those fotos you show in link, I probably got the Toe- in wrong too. I looked at some other instructions and put 1/8" toe over the length of the jig, not 1/8" over the length of a 10" (?) box. That 10" (?) dimension is not called out.
Given toe-in is too much, what to do? Can it help to use the angled inserts? Is there any point in installing forward box for the ventral?
My first SUP build, so ive learned something. Thinking of building another one next winter.
Thanks for helping an amateur.
55, Not to worry we can fix this. Henrik in Sweden has Proboxes contact him and get 2 more. You will have to remove those 2 Proboxes to change the toe, but we will reset new ones in the same locations after you tell me the width from rail to rail measuring over the center of the ProBox you have in the board now.
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Yes, the twins are forward the centerbox. This is because I had to put in the hd foam inserts before I had full instructions, and the intention was never to use center fin together with twins, but put in the forward ventral.
Board is 16-5, and narrow tail, so to get distance between twins, I moved them forward.
Then I have seen you are using the trifin setup. I tried it out, So the three boxes are not the way you recommend.
And looking at those fotos you show in link, I probably got the Toe- in wrong too. I looked at some other instructions and put 1/8" toe over the length of the jig, not 1/8" over the length of a 10" (?) box. That 10" (?) dimension is not called out.
Given toe-in is too much, what to do? Can it help to use the angled inserts? Is there any point in installing forward box for the ventral?
My first SUP build, so ive learned something. Thinking of building another one next winter.
Thanks for helping an amateur.
55, After you give me the measurements we will reroute your Proboxes out using the aid of your install jigs so the router cuts alittle of the ProBox at a time with the guide of the jigs for safety. I will explain on the Facebook link below with multi pics and you should not have any problems. Just go slow and take alittle material at a time from the center of the Probox opening to the outside.
Facebook Link for instructions. (Will have completed by tomorrow) https://www.facebook.com/larry.w.allison?fref=photo
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Larry, have you considered slotting a blank ProBox insert to adjust the toe? This should be easy on a router table, especially with a zero cant.
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I talked to Vec today Larry. Dropping off my 14 next weekend. Should be interesting. She's not a race board but I think the twins will be fun downwind, improve tracking, and add some extra stability.
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Larry, have you considered slotting a blank ProBox insert to adjust the toe? This should be easy on a router table, especially with a zero cant.
Actually, I could make those inserts by CAD modelling one up in 30 min, copy and mirror it, and print them out on 3d printer at work.
Thanks Bean.
Got the boxes from Henrik. Very nice of you guys!! Can use them on next board...
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This evening me and my 11 year old son went out for a nice paddle. It had stopped blowing ( just 5-7 knots) so there wasn't much waves. He is still learning so he had our 9'10 and I was on the 12'6. Suddenly the wind turned and it got tup to 17 knots. My son is NOT used to that! He drifted away from our landing site so I paddled after him and circled around him. I took his leash and he lay down on his board and I Paddled upwind towing him with whitecaps hitting the nose from a 45 degree angle. But everything was quite stable the whole time. The 12'6 was fitted with TWINS and a small ventral in the centerbox and a medium ventral up front. These fins are really great!
Henrik F
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Just added an elliptical keel to to my Infinity Unlimited (17'6"). Had been using a small ventral between the twins, but this elliptical really mades the board zip through the water with mega projection. Revolution in full effect!!!
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Whoaa, Larry--you've been busy!
Those look awesome!
Lovin' my set up. Took it for a paddle around the point yesterday, into HEAVY matted kelp, and the shorter length fins (compared to a single fin) and nice rake glided through the kelp as if it wasn't there. Not even a slight tug! What an added bonus!
Caught a dozen knee-waist high waves at a reef break , and the fins were loose enough to maneuver the board, yet kept me locked into the wave face. Righteous!
Keep 'em coming!!
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And Larry is actually shipping them out too!!
I had George from Surf Guys here in Florida do my SIC X14. I was able to get it out and take a spin on it. Nothing definitive but very eye-opening. The winds were 10-15 mph and I paddled it into the wind and across the wind but in protected inshore waters. WOW! Going across the wind, it just seemed to go straight with little effort to have to hold it there. When I was going into the wind, it did not seem to get pulled off to the side once the board was at an angle going into the wind.
Stability, noticed this right off the bat. My board is 26.5 inches wide and now feels much wider. The thing that always bugged me was the little, tight, sideways chop you get from a boat wake. Especially coming from the rear. This was something that I had to always pay attention to because it always made me a little nervous, especially if my legs were shot. Tested it with lots of boat wakes and it is not even and issue now. I don't have to stop paddling, turn the board a certain way, or brace in any way shape or form.
I will be playing more and testing back against the single fin. Only had a little bit of time with work getting in the way. But overhaul this has been an awesome improvement.
Here are some photos.
Original
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h41/rjbeavis/photo3_zps6580bd55.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/rjbeavis/media/photo3_zps6580bd55.jpg.html)
With my single fin and new fin boxes. There was some color matching problems and George had a guy that could make it a little different.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h41/rjbeavis/P1030159_zpsdaf243a1.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/rjbeavis/media/P1030159_zpsdaf243a1.jpg.html)
And now all kinds of fins sticking out and a big smile on my face.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h41/rjbeavis/P1030161_zps162ef111.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/rjbeavis/media/P1030161_zps162ef111.jpg.html)
some more close ups
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h41/rjbeavis/P1030162_zps911216cd.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/rjbeavis/media/P1030162_zps911216cd.jpg.html)
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h41/rjbeavis/P1030164_zps809e9635.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/rjbeavis/media/P1030164_zps809e9635.jpg.html)
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h41/rjbeavis/P1030165_zpsa66ab34e.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/rjbeavis/media/P1030165_zpsa66ab34e.jpg.html)
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h41/rjbeavis/P1030163_zpsb62ed757.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/rjbeavis/media/P1030163_zpsb62ed757.jpg.html)
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Great review Cal Man! I was with Cal Man and Pro-Box yesterday paddling the green UL Infinity and taking pictures.
Cabrillo Beach can be a very fickle place. Lots of options where to paddle: harbor side or open ocean with great views and places to explore. The wind can change unpredictably as well, coming down over the PV/ San Pedro hill and directly into the harbor. Yesterday was quite a windy day with accompanying wind swells that make it strenuous to paddle back to the beach. With a single fin it becomes a matter of survival at times to get back to land. Occasionally you hear of new paddlers having to be rescued by the life guard boats.
I had twin ellipticals, gladiator kick keel, and a small ventral on the Infinity yesterday and was able to enjoy a good work out. It was stable, had great projection and tracking despite being battered by side chop, and fun. I wouldn't had said that 2 yrs ago when I was on a single fin and less experienced. I'm not to the level of ability as Cal Man, but I was able to paddle with him and enjoy myself.
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Hi Larry,
Just sent you a PM about retrofitting my custom BARK. Link below to pics. Thanks.
http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,23183.msg236237
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Very interesting stuff Larry. I'm trying an experiment going the other direction--to no rear fin. I'm modifying a board to have a tunnel hull, which should impart some rear stability. At least it did with the model. In the ventral position it will have a radio controlled rudder and autopilot. I suspect the tunnel might be insufficient, and a twin fin would be the only possible rescue if the experiment fails. I'll be in touch once I get this thing in the water. I'm waiting for a shipment of carbon fiber to vacuum bag into the channel.
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Interesting. On one picture it looks like the side fins are slightly toed in, which makes sense since the water flow on a rounded bottom or v-shaped tail would not come straight from the front. I'm wondering how you find the right angle since it also depends on speed and so many other factors. If the angle is not just right it seems like you would introduce more drag with side fins.
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Wow, I think I want a Zulu now.
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Wow, I think I want a Zulu now.
You are not alone :)
Henrik F
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Ok, following up on my X14 fin modification. I have done 2 races now.
1 was just our local area fun race and the other was paddle battle style off the beach. In the regular water start race with the single Gladiator fin, I would get wobbly getting caught in the other racers wake. With the 4 fins in, this was not a problem. I did not even have to think or worry about it. I just paddled. And the board was STABLE. Another advantage was we had to cut over a shallow sandbar. Everyone else had to cut wide. I was able to cut short. I did hit to where I had to hop off the board and the water was just over my ankle. One step and I hopped back on and kept paddling. It was actually bad in terms of paddling over it because I could only get half the paddle blade in the water before hitting the bottom.
The paddle battle race was the first one I did in this type of format. It was a running start into the ocean. It was at low tide. Where we entered the water, there was a thigh deep trough before the sandbar which was only about 10 inches deep. Waves were very small. There were only about 18 people in the race and everyone had big fins. hehe When we started, I ran with my board and jumped onto it on my stomach. I smoked everyone on the start because I just glided right over the sandbar. Then I blew it because I was kinda giggling and excited fumbled getting up twice. So everyone caught me. In this race, I did not use the ventral fin, only the 3 across the back.
So yeah I am really excited on how this works on my board. I will have something like this on my next fishing board too. Just the elliptical round fins.
Thanks for everything Larry.
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Got my Gladiator Kick fin the other day and got to try it yesterday in the sound where I paddle here in Sweden. The wind was about 18-20 knots. I padddled upwind, down wind and with the wind and waves from the side. This was on my Fanatic 14'x27,75". It was stable even before with the TWINS and a ventral fin but now it tracked even better and was super stable. Got close to a jetty and the waves were hitting back and forth (do not know how to explain that). But no problem. This is a great setup.
Could even hold some speed in the headwind. Maybe some better glide?
Henrik F
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Got close to a jetty and the waves were hitting back and forth (do not know how to explain that).
Henrik F
I think you might have been experiencing wave reflection. Waves loose surprisingly little energy bouncing off hard objects like jetty's and bulkheads.
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Got close to a jetty and the waves were hitting back and forth (do not know how to explain that).
Henrik F
I think you might have been experiencing wave reflection. Waves loose surprisingly little energy bouncing off hard objects like jetty's and bulkheads.
Thanks Bean! That's the thing I meant.
Henrik F
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Larry, in a sentence, what's the performance difference between the Twin set up versus Twin + little gladiator?
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Larry, in a sentence, what's the performance difference between the Twin set up versus Twin + little gladiator?
Sup Giant, Pic number 1 shows a Hovie with Probox Twins and Ventral. The Twins give lateral stability with Ventral aidding in Projection and tracking.
Pic number 2 shows a board with all 3 fins at the rear the same outline with small ventral, this is a flat water setup for stability with Probox Twins with straighter outline for fast release and the center fin increases the projection by eliminating tail drift without over sizing Twins balancing out the tail volume in this board.
Pic number 3 shows the same Probox Twins for fast release but added a 5" gladiator Kick fin to control drift when a wave wake hits you the aid of the twisting in the foil of the kick has hold and flexes to the feel size of pic 2 (Flat water set up)
Pic number 4 shows a board with more tail volume that changing to Probox Elliptical Twins helps in lateral stability with a larger 6.5" Gladiator kick fin for better hold and projection in balancing out the fin set up to board volume along to mother nature's conditions of strong winds and chop.
Sorry needed a few more sentences to give you a break down my friend. Mahalo, Larry
Appreciate it Larry.
I've never seen Dave use the ventral, but I've only paddled w him off Baby Beach and beyond.
Starting to wrap my brain around this a bit.
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This is my Ron House 12'6x30" Coastal Cruiser, that Larry outfitted with this fin setup.
I wanted this board to track and glide with stability in the ocean (like one of my race boards), yet be surfable when I reach the distant reefs (like my surfboards). Larry nailed it!
I paddle out past the point seen in the picture (2-4 miles), surf the uncrowded reefs, where this fin set up keeps me locked into the wave face (no sliding out), yet is maneuverable. Added bonus is low profile, so snagging kelp (heavy in this area) is of no concern, and gliding over reefs at low tide (inches of water) is never a jarring experience.
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Here is an update on the twin fin from Infinity
http://vimeo.com/119398298?from=outro-local
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I was skeptical of twins (or triple) on race boards but I've paddled a few boards that had them and it really makes a difference. I've also spent some time trying to draft a board that had triples and it was really hard to stay in the wake.
I paddled Dave's board this morning, the same one in that video, and it's incredibly stable for 12'6 x 24.5 and it's so smooth. We were doing some interval sprints with beach starts and Dave was absolutely flying off the starts before he even took his first stroke. My GPS topped out at 8.5mph on one of the starts so I can only think that he was close to 9. Is it the fin setup? Could be. It could also be that he's an incredibly fast paddler. I think a lot of people think of him only as an incredible surfer but he is incredibly fast on a race board.
I have a Blackfish on order with that same fin setup, wider tail and half inch wider overall. I figure it's just like golf... I can buy new clubs and stripe a 320yd drive and proceed to shoot a 65, thanks to the new sticks. Right?
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got to admit im tempted to give it a go being that my next board is going to be 21.5" wide. What toe angle are peope using trying?
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I don't know what angles Dave is using. The Infinity guys that I've been paddling with have been running triples more than twins. I think Dave was using the Gladiator Pro as the center fin today. I have the Gladiator Pro on my board (single fin) and I get pushed around quite a bit by wakes and currents. I really believe this is one of those things that you just have to try it for yourself to believe it but I'm sure it's not for everyone. I also don't know how much the Blackfish shape lends to the stability. I'm 185lbs and I jumped on his board and had no stability issues. I was able to sprint, do pivot turns, etc. and never got the jimmy-leg wobbles.
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cheers only one way to find out, i looked back and the old posts were saying 1/8 so maybe try that. I may have to make some fins up myself to start with as it gets pricey importing stuff but will make a interesting test
.
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If you contact LA, he will generally give you some specific feedback for your particular board.
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cheers may do that
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Has the multi-fin concept found increased traction? Any new revelations for 2016? Changes in Layout? Foil? Fin outline? Area? Or have these things stabilized? Larry...any photos of your latest and greatest multi-fins?
In the Infinity video and other places I have heard the total area of all three fins equal one single fin... Is this literally true...do three of these fins only amount to 38-40 sq inches? Appears to be more....
Larry your layout showed the toeing at 1/8" over 10"....the infinity video posted here looks like considerably more. It that just a optical illusion from lens perspective distortion or they going for more?
Also interested to know if you found the multi-fin set up results in more tail lift.
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Has the multi-fin concept found increased traction?
if a mainstream brand like infinity has gone to production boards with the concept, it's safe to say it found increased traction IMO
.
Below are some pics of this setup on a new SIC FX.
I've been playing around with few fin setups (different from the pics) and it substantially improved tracking and stability
over the stock SIC 8.3 fin, even with just the 2 4x11 inch twin fins. What also made a world of difference to me was the fact that
it's now possible for me to launch the board on low tide due-to the reduced fin height.
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I am having my 14x25 Eradicator modified for twin fins as we speak so hopefully in a few weeks I will be able to tell.
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Has the multi-fin concept found increased traction?
if a mainstream brand like infinity has gone to production boards with the concept, it's safe to say it found increased traction IMO
.
Below are some pics of this setup on a new SIC FX.
I've been playing around with few fin setups (different from the pics) and it substantially improved tracking and stability
over the stock SIC 8.3 fin, even with just the 2 4x11 inch twin fins. What also made a world of difference to me was the fact that
it's now possible for me to launch the board on low tide due-to the reduced fin height.
Hello!
I saw in the pics that you have a red and a blue insert at the same time. What is the purpose of different cants? 0° and 4° (I think). DOes that actually work? I have 0° on both sides and it works great because the tailpart is flat. Just wondering....
Henrik F
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Has the multi-fin concept found increased traction?
if a mainstream brand like infinity has gone to production boards with the concept, it's safe to say it found increased traction IMO
.
Below are some pics of this setup on a new SIC FX.
I've been playing around with few fin setups (different from the pics) and it substantially improved tracking and stability
over the stock SIC 8.3 fin, even with just the 2 4x11 inch twin fins. What also made a world of difference to me was the fact that
it's now possible for me to launch the board on low tide due-to the reduced fin height.
Hello!
I saw in the pics that you have a red and a blue insert at the same time. What is the purpose of different cants? 0° and 4° (I think). DOes that actually work? I have 0° on both sides and it works great because the tailpart is flat. Just wondering....
Henrik F
That was just for testing purposes. Nothing to it
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Just wondering how this might work with the new Starboard All Star. Combining its big concave that is mean to compress and accelerate the water with a twin
Any one out there have one and feel like playing?
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In my experience, twins and triples are slower on race boards. I tried every combination of sizes with one of the ProBox setups and in the end GPS speeds were always faster with just a single fun. However, the stability of the triple setup was awesome. So, depending on conditions, might be faster overall if you are able to avoid falling, if the conditions are rougher.
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In my experience, twins and triples are slower on race boards. I tried every combination of sizes with one of the ProBox setups and in the end GPS speeds were always faster with just a single fun. However, the stability of the triple setup was awesome. So, depending on conditions, might be faster overall if you are able to avoid falling, if the conditions are rougher.
You must be referring to the El Camino right? I think Larry has some new fins to address it.
BTW, in your tests what was the speed difference between the twins and single fin setups?
Just wanted to compare as I experienced the same thing with some of my setups.
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I am having my 14x25 Eradicator modified for twin fins as we speak so hopefully in a few weeks I will be able to tell.
The smaller ones (Stealth), are the fins that will go with the board :-)
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" However, the stability of the triple setup was awesome. So, depending on conditions, might be faster overall if you are able to avoid falling, if the conditions are rougher.
Enough additional stability added by the triples to go down an inch or two in board width? Was this experienced with several boards? Did the board design have a relativly narrower tail? Just wondering as there seems to be movement towards fuller nose and wide tails to bring down overall width and still maintain stability.
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Enough additional stability added by the triples to go down an inch or two in board width? Was this experienced with several boards? Did the board design have a relativly narrower tail?
Yes, from my experience and what I've been reading, this setup will compensate on a lose of a 2 inch in overall board width.
When I ordered my 12'6/27" board I was very cautious as I was coming down from 32" width. The main reason for that width
is I'm also using this board as a touring board and loading an extra 30+ pounds on it.
If I were to use this board as racing/workout board only, I would go down to 25" without hesitation.
Just for reference, the width of the tail is about 8 inch, so it's quite narrow.
As mentioned before by kayadog, this setup will really shine when the water becomes rougher (heavy side chop, currents, boat wakes etc)
or when you carrying a lot of extra weight. calm Flat water and lakes, couldn't really tell the difference.
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I've been using a single fin more than trips lately. Interesting to look back on an older thread and re-read some comments, especially my own, to see how I felt a year ago. I don't think twins/trips are slower or faster than a single fin, I think there are a lot of variables that can affect overall speed. I now prefer trips in flat, calm water. For open water conditions where the water is moving a lot and the board is getting pushed around and the tail is being lifted a lot, I had trouble with the stealth trips setup. I think it was because when the tail was raised, the fins were slipping and the tail would get pushed around. A taller/larger center fin with the same side fins would help this but I started to just run a single fin and found that I liked it better. I also prefer a single fin over trips if I'm going to surf my raceboard. Just feels looser and less locked in than with the trips. Don't get me wrong, I still really love the stealth triple setup, just a certain time and place for it. It definitely creates a wake that is harder to draft than a single fin.
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Kayadog, have you tried surfing your board as a twin with the flats facing inward? On my board, flipping the fins increases the toe, and the board loosens up significantly. Of course for any distance and tracking the fins need to be flat's-out.
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> As mentioned before by kayadog, this setup will really shine when the water becomes rougher (heavy side chop, currents, boat wakes etc)<
>For open water conditions where the water is moving a lot and the board is getting pushed around and the tail is being lifted a lot, I had trouble with the stealth trips setup. I think it was because when the tail was raised, the fins were slipping and the tail would get pushed around. A taller/larger center fin with the same side fins would help this but I started to just run a single fin and found that I liked it better.<
I am wondering if the combination of the size/type of the side fins and the board itself have anything to do with the two opposite statements.
According to Larry, the Stealth have less depth and are supposed to be flat water speed oriented but Larry Allison was also showing large half-moon sides that are supposed to be the one bringing stability in rough water.
Cheers,
Luc
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Has the multi-fin concept found increased traction?
if a mainstream brand like infinity has gone to production boards with the concept, it's safe to say it found increased traction IMO
.
Below are some pics of this setup on a new SIC FX.
I've been playing around with few fin setups (different from the pics) and it substantially improved tracking and stability
over the stock SIC 8.3 fin, even with just the 2 4x11 inch twin fins. What also made a world of difference to me was the fact that
it's now possible for me to launch the board on low tide due-to the reduced fin height.
Hello!
I saw in the pics that you have a red and a blue insert at the same time. What is the purpose of different cants? 0° and 4° (I think). DOes that actually work? I have 0° on both sides and it works great because the tailpart is flat. Just wondering....
Henrik F
Hi Henrik, The different Canted inserts are different "Cants"yes, but the fins are not Canted. The bottom on that custom board has a slight different roll from shaping. One side is off to the other, which is why 2 different Canted inserts are used to make the Probox Twins set straight upright to match each other. Another great feature of Probox Finsystems. You would be amazed how many boards have their fins at different cants with no one every saying anything and they would wonder why their board pulls more on one side to another. Mahalo, Larry
-
Has the multi-fin concept found increased traction?
if a mainstream brand like infinity has gone to production boards with the concept, it's safe to say it found increased traction IMO
.
Below are some pics of this setup on a new SIC FX.
I've been playing around with few fin setups (different from the pics) and it substantially improved tracking and stability
over the stock SIC 8.3 fin, even with just the 2 4x11 inch twin fins. What also made a world of difference to me was the fact that
it's now possible for me to launch the board on low tide due-to the reduced fin height.
Hello!
I saw in the pics that you have a red and a blue insert at the same time. What is the purpose of different cants? 0° and 4° (I think). DOes that actually work? I have 0° on both sides and it works great because the tailpart is flat. Just wondering....
Henrik F
Hi Henrik, The different Canted inserts are different "Cants"yes, but the fins are not Canted. The bottom on that custom board has a slight different roll from shaping. One side is off to the other, which is why 2 different Canted inserts are used to make the Probox Twins set straight upright to match each other. Another great feature of Probox Finsystems. You would be amazed how many boards have their fins at different cants with no one every saying anything and they would wonder why their board pulls more on one side to another. Mahalo, Larry
Thanks for the info Larry!
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The Hovie Comet looks awesome... here my plywood twin from 2011.
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150864988348702&id=515083701&set=t.100000640982373&source=42
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Another happy rider on a Kings Board with Allison Race Probox Twins. Here's alittle write up Shonna did on her Facebook page. Mahalo, Larry
Shonna Litton Brown Review of Allison Probox Race Twins:
March 3 ·
Great paddle trying out the new @lafins. Stabilized my board so much I can paddle standing on one leg (flamingo style)
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I've been using a single fin more than trips lately. Interesting to look back on an older thread and re-read some comments, especially my own, to see how I felt a year ago. I don't think twins/trips are slower or faster than a single fin, I think there are a lot of variables that can affect overall speed. I now prefer trips in flat, calm water. For open water conditions where the water is moving a lot and the board is getting pushed around and the tail is being lifted a lot, I had trouble with the stealth trips setup. I think it was because when the tail was raised, the fins were slipping and the tail would get pushed around. A taller/larger center fin with the same side fins would help this but I started to just run a single fin and found that I liked it better. I also prefer a single fin over trips if I'm going to surf my raceboard. Just feels looser and less locked in than with the trips. Don't get me wrong, I still really love the stealth triple setup, just a certain time and place for it. It definitely creates a wake that is harder to draft than a single fin.
kayadogg, Your slipping is to small fins for sure along with the center kick fin that flexs small. Like in this pic.
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I've been using a single fin more than trips lately. Interesting to look back on an older thread and re-read some comments, especially my own, to see how I felt a year ago. I don't think twins/trips are slower or faster than a single fin, I think there are a lot of variables that can affect overall speed. I now prefer trips in flat, calm water. For open water conditions where the water is moving a lot and the board is getting pushed around and the tail is being lifted a lot, I had trouble with the stealth trips setup. I think it was because when the tail was raised, the fins were slipping and the tail would get pushed around. A taller/larger center fin with the same side fins would help this but I started to just run a single fin and found that I liked it better. I also prefer a single fin over trips if I'm going to surf my raceboard. Just feels looser and less locked in than with the trips. Don't get me wrong, I still really love the stealth triple setup, just a certain time and place for it. It definitely creates a wake that is harder to draft than a single fin.
kayadogg, The Probox Race Twins are bigger here with the same kick fin that flexs small with better bite and increase projection. These fins are the fins I ride on my 325 litter board.
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I've been using a single fin more than trips lately. Interesting to look back on an older thread and re-read some comments, especially my own, to see how I felt a year ago. I don't think twins/trips are slower or faster than a single fin, I think there are a lot of variables that can affect overall speed. I now prefer trips in flat, calm water. For open water conditions where the water is moving a lot and the board is getting pushed around and the tail is being lifted a lot, I had trouble with the stealth trips setup. I think it was because when the tail was raised, the fins were slipping and the tail would get pushed around. A taller/larger center fin with the same side fins would help this but I started to just run a single fin and found that I liked it better. I also prefer a single fin over trips if I'm going to surf my raceboard. Just feels looser and less locked in than with the trips. Don't get me wrong, I still really love the stealth triple setup, just a certain time and place for it. It definitely creates a wake that is harder to draft than a single fin.
kayadogg, Here is the biggest and newsest Black fish Twins with the small Kick fin. My guest would be the Mid size twins to solve your issue and still have freedom to move in and around surf. Thanks for sharing my friend. Mahalo, Larry
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Hello Larry,
I think that Fiberglass Supply said that you had sent them the Stealth Twins for my Eradicator.
How do I go about if I want to add a set of bigger Race Twins with same pattern?
Cheers,
Luc
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Hello Larry,
I think that Fiberglass Supply said that you had sent them the Stealth Twins for my Eradicator.
How do I go about if I want to add a set of bigger Race Twins with same pattern?
Cheers,
Luc
Hi Luc, PM me here or on facebook. I think after riding that board myself. The setup I sent will be the setup for your conditions. Ride the board first and let the board tell you by it's actions if we need to send a bigger set of Probox Race Twins. Remember to run Ventral fin with set. Mahalo,Larry
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Hi Luc, PM me here or on facebook. I think after riding that board myself. The setup I sent will be the setup for your conditions. Ride the board first and let the board tell you by it's actions if we need to send a bigger set of Probox Race Twins. Remember to run Ventral fin with set. Mahalo,Larry
Great - thanks Larry. The board is at Wetcoast Surf Co. for the retrofit and I am patiently biting my fingernails :-) as it will likely be a few weeks before it is done.
James told me that he had talked to you regarding the details of where and how the fins are going.
Cheers,
Luc
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Hello Larry,
I think that Fiberglass Supply said that you had sent them the Stealth Twins for my Eradicator.
How do I go about if I want to add a set of bigger Race Twins with same pattern?
Cheers,
Luc
Hi Luc, PM me here or on facebook. I think after riding that board myself. The setup I sent will be the setup for your conditions. Ride the board first and let the board tell you by it's actions if we need to send a bigger set of Probox Race Twins. Remember to run Ventral fin with set. Mahalo,Larry
Luc, I started with this setup first on the Eradicator because the board looked like it would use a larger set up along with the Gladiator Rojas as a kickfin and found the board felt over finned and had a tuggy feel (Slow).
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Kayadog, have you tried surfing your board as a twin with the flats facing inward? On my board, flipping the fins increases the toe, and the board loosens up significantly. Of course for any distance and tracking the fins need to be flat's-out.
No I haven't tried that but it sounds interesting, I'll give it a shot and see how it feels.
Thanks for the info Larry. I'm interested in the mid-size twins and small kick fin. I'll give you a call to discuss.
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Larry, the small fin at the middle is fixed or retractable? Mine are removable like a sail boat centerboard, that gives a awesome control sidewind to upwind, and while downwinding I lift it and glide.
For your twins and tail center, looks quite big, no way to try smaller?
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In my experience, twins and triples are slower on race boards. I tried every combination of sizes with one of the ProBox setups and in the end GPS speeds were always faster with just a single fun. However, the stability of the triple setup was awesome. So, depending on conditions, might be faster overall if you are able to avoid falling, if the conditions are rougher.
You must be referring to the El Camino right? I think Larry has some new fins to address it.
BTW, in your tests what was the speed difference between the twins and single fin setups?
Just wanted to compare as I experienced the same thing with some of my setups.
Yeah, Larry was going to send a different set to try, but then went underground.
Speed-wise, I'd say the difference was about .2-.3 mph on Flatwater. 5.5 mph at 45 SPM to 5.7 mph at 45 SPM. It's hard to be exact on this type of stuff, but I did this over multiple days and with and without wind. Length of comparison was about 1/2 mile each direction, either upwind or downwind.
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In my experience, twins and triples are slower on race boards. I tried every combination of sizes with one of the ProBox setups and in the end GPS speeds were always faster with just a single fun. However, the stability of the triple setup was awesome. So, depending on conditions, might be faster overall if you are able to avoid falling, if the conditions are rougher.
You must be referring to the El Camino right? I think Larry has some new fins to address it.
BTW, in your tests what was the speed difference between the twins and single fin setups?
Just wanted to compare as I experienced the same thing with some of my setups.
Yeah, Larry was going to send a different set to try, but then went underground.
Speed-wise, I'd say the difference was about .2-.3 mph on Flatwater. 5.5 mph at 45 SPM to 5.7 mph at 45 SPM. It's hard to be exact on this type of stuff, but I did this over multiple days and with and without wind. Length of comparison was about 1/2 mile each direction, either upwind or downwind.
SUP 407, Were you running a ventral in your tests on the El Camino? Mahalo, Larry
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a rounded hull with addition of 2 twins, makes it stable ( Hi-Fun Hydro PB#3)
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=874020746016461&id=100002256311339&set=a.834240823327787.1073741828.100002256311339&source=48
some projects from 2012 to 2014( centerboard case abt 2 ft before feet for Rounded hull 14 footer)
twins are adding stability and handling, so let's go rounder and faster.
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https://m.facebook.com/Hi.fun.hydroworks/?ref=bookmarks
and more in there chapter 5-6
http://paddlespot.net/download/les_carenes_de_SUP_race.pdf
Simmons/scow hybryd 12'6"
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In my experience, twins and triples are slower on race boards. I tried every combination of sizes with one of the ProBox setups and in the end GPS speeds were always faster with just a single fun. However, the stability of the triple setup was awesome. So, depending on conditions, might be faster overall if you are able to avoid falling, if the conditions are rougher.
You must be referring to the El Camino right? I think Larry has some new fins to address it.
BTW, in your tests what was the speed difference between the twins and single fin setups?
Just wanted to compare as I experienced the same thing with some of my setups.
Yeah, Larry was going to send a different set to try, but then went underground.
Speed-wise, I'd say the difference was about .2-.3 mph on Flatwater. 5.5 mph at 45 SPM to 5.7 mph at 45 SPM. It's hard to be exact on this type of stuff, but I did this over multiple days and with and without wind. Length of comparison was about 1/2 mile each direction, either upwind or downwind.
Sup407, If you were not running a Ventral Fin in the El Camino then your test times are incorrect due the fact that you were lacking projection. You are feeling lack of speed not because of triple but under finned without adding the Ventral fin. People get confused with under fin lack of push off side ways to move forward, verses over fin feel which is tugging pulling something feel thru water. The pic below is from a rider of Blackbox Board El Camino who had the Ventral fin added after riding it awhile with better results. Thanks for sharing my friend! Mahalo, Larry
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If I can get 25 strokes per side with 90% power with no direction change, I'm not sure I understand why it needs a ventral. I'd understand if it was a planing shape with shitty tracking, but my stroke is solid and the board itself tracks extremely well. Frankly, I haven't seen one person yet say that a triple is quantifiably faster than a single. More stable, absolutely, but not faster, with comparative GPS readings.
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If I can get 25 strokes per side with 90% power with no direction change, I'm not sure I understand why it needs a ventral. I'd understand if it was a planing shape with shitty tracking, but my stroke is solid and the board itself tracks extremely well. Frankly, I haven't seen one person yet say that a triple is quantifiably faster than a single. More stable, absolutely, but not faster, with comparative GPS readings.
Thanks Sup407, for your reply my friend. I am sure you are doing everything right with the tools you have. I will be doing 4 youtube videos explaining this starting next week with the first describing box placement. Then a video explaining Ventral Fin purpose, Video number 3 will explain Twins, and Video number 4 will explain Kick fin. I will post here to help better explain different Twin Outline functions along with the comparison to a single since we have complied enough data to put these videos together. Thank you again my friend for your input. Mahalo, Larry
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I would like to hear some thoughts about the specific fin configurations of displacement boards vs. planing-boards. While no flat water SUP is purely one or the other, clearly boards like the Infinity Blackfish lean more toward planing and might benefit from lift and possibly other forces provided in a multiple fin configuration.
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The Twin Race movement has come a long way. Thought I would share some show and tell. Please feel free to jump in my friends. Mahalo, Larry
http://www.supracefins.com/uncategorized/twin-fins-or-more-on-a-race-board/ (http://www.supracefins.com/uncategorized/twin-fins-or-more-on-a-race-board/)
I just noticed this on this thread, www.supracefins.com is not me "Larry Allison". My Facebook "Sup Races Fins" since 2009 is me "Larry Allison" In late 2013 my Facebook name was registered by another Sup Brand which I found out later part of 2014 and discontinued doing business with this Brand which also hijack my name "Larry Allison" in google search. This creates confusion in the Sup Market which I have requested the Brand to remove my name from their sight with little luck as you can see when google searching Allison Race Fins or Larry Allison Sup Fins. Not sure how this www.supracefins.com got into this thread. Thank you my friends for your support! Please no negative comments on this tech thread over this name issue, I just wanted to make my Sup Friends aware. Mahalo,Larry
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Hi my friends, Here is video number 1 just talking about fin box placement and why. Feel free to ask any questions to help me better explain as we go to the next video talking Ventral Fin next week. Mahalo Larry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm4GqNpnxJE&feature=share
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A while back I installed Twin boxes on my 2014 All Star, following Larry's placement instructions. Works like a champ! In my 1st race using twin fins was pretty flat, I was thinking that it would be too much fin for the day, but feedback I got after the race was that attempts to draft me were thwarted by my weird wake. However, that same wake that prevents drafting, causes more drag, I believe the fin area was too big for conditions, and took 3rd by just a few meters. I then picked up a smaller set that worked equally well, not as stable, but faster.
My next race, I went single for a few reasons and was drafted most of the race (DOH!), losing out on a podium spot in a sprint for the finish. Dag Nabbit!!! A few months later at a local event I went twins, and once again, no one could draft me, allowing me to slip away, unfortunately it wasn't from the leaders, just the chase group I was with.
Twins work!
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A while back I installed Twin boxes on my 2014 All Star, following Larry's placement instructions. Works like a champ! In my 1st race using twin fins was pretty flat, I was thinking that it would be too much fin for the day, but feedback I got after the race was that attempts to draft me were thwarted by my weird wake. However, that same wake that prevents drafting, causes more drag, I believe the fin area was too big for conditions, and took 3rd by just a few meters. I then picked up a smaller set that worked equally well, not as stable, but faster.
My next race, I went single for a few reasons and was drafted most of the race (DOH!), losing out on a podium spot in a sprint for the finish. Dag Nabbit!!! A few months later at a local event I went twins, and once again, no one could draft me, allowing me to slip away, unfortunately it wasn't from the leaders, just the chase group I was with.
Twins work!
Hef, Thanks for sharing. Can you post a pic so I can see what you were running to help you out my friend.
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Larry....is there a three fins configuration that will work without the ventrical fin? I would love the triples in the rear but really don't care for the look of the ventrical fin. Having another fin to deal with so far forward on the board, having to remove it to put the board in a bag or stacking boards for transport... While a small thing is annoying if you have deal with it every paddle.
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Larry....is there a three fins configuration that will work without the ventrical fin? I would love the triples in the rear but really don't care for the look of the ventrical fin. Having another fin to deal with so far forward on the board, having to remove it to put the board in a bag or stacking boards for transport... While a small thing is annoying if you have deal with it every paddle.
Don't bother about the look of the ventral fin! It is a click-it fin and you can remove and put it back in a second. The ventral is so good for tracking, stability, side chop downwind, downwind and of course upwind. It helps in every direction. I have had it since early 2013 on three different boards. The ventral should be standard equipment on every raceboard produced. It is that good. The only drawback is that you have to step a little further back when doing a pivot turn.
Henrik F
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Picked up my Ron House Coastal Cruiser today from Larry, with a fresh set of ProBox + Triple delight fins.
The set up looks killer, and workmanship is top notch. I was anxious to get it in the water, so went directly to my usual spot in Torrance Beach, where I paddle up/down the beach breaks and around the peninsula, surfing sand bars and reefs.
1-2 ft swell, 5 knot winds, and some surface texture today.
My first impression upon hopping up on my board was "WOW"!! This thing is super stable. Much more so than with any previous single fin on this same board. The dramatic increase in stability made my board feel like it was 1-2" wider!! I previously paddled this board with the stock Riviera "SR" fin, Gladiator Hybrid, and Ninja single fins. The current Triple Delight felt rock solid in the surf zone and light chop. Tracking was straight and true also.
Paddled into a few waves, and the 12'6" responded confidently. Coming off the bottom turn, the board shot back up the face, and the fins locked into the upper 1/3 of the wave face, with no slippage. Dang....this is cool!!
Couldn't resist paddling back out and repeating same scenario:)
Bonus: Kelp shedding is a non-issue with these shorter, and raked fins.
Our rocky coastline is heavily surrounded by thick mats of kelp. The fins skimmed over the carpet with no hiccups.
Thanks Larry--this Triple Delight set up is perfect!!!!
Supflorida, In answer to your question about using a Ventral, Henrik said it best in the post before this. If you are using a board like this coastal runner pic below and review here, then a Ventral Fin can be opted out. I will talk more about Ventral in video number 2 my friend in detail to better answer your question. Mahalo
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Thanks my friends for making the move to Allison Race Twins. It seems that now that boards are running higher volume it seems guys are going to ProBox Finsystems for Twin conversions. It makes sense, A single fin is a pivot point, break the pivot point into two and now you get it. Got a text 4 weeks ago from a company in PR, MHL. The laminator said Larry we are making a 14' by 21" race board. Need to talk fins. The results are here from the owner of this 21" wide board.
Review:
Robert Norman
May 6 at 7:08pm · Inverness, FL ·
Running the Larry W. Allison probox on the bottom of the new 21 inch board.
Spent this afternoon playing with a few different fin combinations.
My first impression is: I'm working a lot less to achieve the same overall speed based on the fins I'm running.
Everyone is saying the probox design creates too much drag and you're gonna be going slow. Not the case at all. Take a typical single fin and break it into four smaller pieces then place them in advantages spots on the board to promote glide and stability... that's the concept... and my first impressions agree.
The lateral stability is night and day with the triple fins on the tail vs one larger center fin.
And the overall tracking is superior with the ventral fin and small center fin vs a single center fin of equal cumulative size.
The extra stability translated into more energy I could transfer to the paddle to make the board move quicker... and there's no increase in drag as a price to pay. And the fins help project the board in a straighter line each stroke without that "over-finned" feeling.
I'll be racing this setup and training on it indefinitely, as I use it more I'll update more but my initial impressions are very positive.
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This setup has the new Small Blkfish Twins for guys under 180lbs. Along with the 6" Stinger kick and small Ventral. Working with Dave Boehne for a little over 3 years dialing this board in, I feel we have all the bases covered. Thank you Dave for pushing the envelope.
On another note:
Any sup board 25 inches or under should be running this set up to ride. Allison Race Twins with Ventral are proven to be as fast or faster than a single fin. But riding a board at 25 inches wide as a single becomes a balance act due to a single fin being a pivot point. ALLISON PROBOX RACE TWINS adds 3 to 4 inch of stability without adding drag. Don't believe me ask a Racer or Sup rider that has Race Twins on their board. Again I repeat this all the time, Allison Race Twins are a Sup Set up the OPPOSITE of Surfing.
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Published on Jun 14, 2016
Finologist Larry Allison shares a video by Malissa Austin showing Erick Kuaffman who is 230lbs, 6'4" tall paddling a 14'by 26 wide Blackfish Infinity into a strong head wind. This Board is finned with Allison Probox Blackfish Twins at 4.5" tall by 11" long with a 7 1/2" tall Jr.Dolphin Keel for a kick fin along with a 2" by 7" Long Allison Ventral fin assist. What Finologist Larry Allison wants to bring to your attention: is the glide of the Infinity Raceboard going into the wind with a Allison multiple fin set up. Notice the board still moving forward with stored energy from the multiple fins as Eric switches paddle stroke sides. This does not happen with most single fins going into a head wind. The end result here is more fins in the right placement and size do not show a drag response like so many theroize without riding themselves.
https://youtu.be/_jw9UCNOYZY
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It's always hard to get a true representation across with a video...and Larry I want to believe in the multi fin concept...but this particular video looks pretty normal to me, as these are typical conditions where I paddle. Video makes it look more of a "toilet bowl" chop situation then wind...but the again looks can be deceiving...
If anything, rather than locked in, the tail looks a little "skatty" to me.
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I'm not so sure about the multi-fins for racing. The superman board guy Robert Norman is obviously very fit, but he was pretty far off the pace (9th of 10 racers) in the recent Battle of the Blueway race where he went with 4 fins. Winner Ryan Helm finished in 1:16, I finished in 1:22, Robert in 1:31.
https://paddleguru.com/races/BattleontheBlueway
In a shorter length race earlier this year Robert went with a single fin and beat a lot of the same racers that beat him in the blueway race.
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It's like anything - perform a robust fin test experiment (and I don't mean looking at race results or a dataset of just one paddle) and then draw a meaningful conclusion from it.
I am curious to see if two small fins on a flatwater board is faster than one big one. If nothing else, it might allow the manufacturers to drive down width of a board further whilst maintaining stability or improving out and out speed.
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I think board design will affect how well twin fins or a single fin will work. Larry has been working with Dave Boehne for a couple years now on dialing in this type of setup specifically for Infinity's Blackfish model. The bottom contour is designed with twin fins in mind. This is not to say that it won't work with a single fin or that twins on another board won't work either. Personally speaking, I've owned a couple Blackfish over the past couple years and have had pro boxes installed in each one so I've ridden my boards as single, twins and tri-fin setups in a range of conditions. There are times when I prefer one setup over the other and I don't believe there's any set formula, it's all a matter of personal preference.
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I'm not so sure about the multi-fins for racing. The superman board guy Robert Norman is obviously very fit, but he was pretty far off the pace (9th of 10 racers) in the recent Battle of the Blueway race where he went with 4 fins. Winner Ryan Helm finished in 1:16, I finished in 1:22, Robert in 1:31.
https://paddleguru.com/races/BattleontheBlueway
In a shorter length race earlier this year Robert went with a single fin and beat a lot of the same racers that beat him in the blueway race.
Not sure if you are talking about a Race that it was so HOT that people were falling like flies, Robert had mentioned. Never the less Robert took first last weekend in a Melbourne Race:
Robert Norman
June 18 near Melbourne, FL ·
Fun race in Melbourne today. TEN laps on a race course for 6.25 total miles. SIX turns per lap for a grand total of SIXTY. Every 8th of a mile was a sharp turn.
Lots of fun, ending up taking first overall which added to the fun.
Also a second place this last weekend in Delaware with no ventral and triples only! Out of control conditions. Sandy Deeley.
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Hmm, those are great results by Robert! Maybe it just took him a few races to get dialed into the new board. I'll have to ask him to let me borrow the next time we race together. :)
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Hmm, those are great results by Robert! Maybe it just took him a few races to get dialed into the new board. I'll have to ask him to let me borrow the next time we race together. :)
Florida windsup. I forgot to add that this guy Robert has been paddling for a little over a year, is my understanding compared to Ryan Helm who is at a higher level Pro. With knowing that is even more impressive that Robert went to the extreme 21 wide Race board and open minded about using multiple fin set up allows him to have a bad race once in awhile.
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Happy to finally say the fin designs match the board after Dave Boehne came from 6 board lengths behind Sergio and caught the same wave in to finish the Race coming in 2nd using all 4 fins: Ventral, Twin and center Kick, in the pic below with a 14' Board between the 2 Racers.
Also a shot from San Clemente Pier this last week end of Dave flying across a left running all 4 Fins at the San Clemente Surf Fest.
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Also happy on Canada Day Ryan Knysh took 1st in a 10 mile Race and this Last week end Ryan took 3rd with Ventral and Race Twins. On Canada day 3rd place also went to Gregory Reeb running same set up as Ryan all 4 fins in 10 mile Race.
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I'm fascinated to see if there is anything in this. At face value, adding more fins is going to be disastrous for flatwater drag but if the board width can be trimmed down, I wonder where the gain could prove worthwhile or whether the shallower depth of fin would pay off. Taking the 2017 narrow race boards that are driving down towards 21 inches and then putting extra fins on would be an interesting experiment - even if the boards weren't designed for it.
Simply stating the results of a paddler using multiple fins isn't enough (thats merely either pseudo marketing or poor science) - their result could be 'in spite of' rather than 'because of'. Surely someone can field test this stateside with actual numbers ?
I wish someone in the UK could fit these. I'd love to try the mod on one of my race boards.
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I'm fascinated to see if there is anything in this. At face value, adding more fins is going to be disastrous for flatwater drag but if the board width can be trimmed down, I wonder where the gain could prove worthwhile or whether the shallower depth of fin would pay off. Taking the 2017 narrow race boards that are driving down towards 21 inches and then putting extra fins on would be an interesting experiment - even if the boards weren't designed for it.
Simply stating the results of a paddler using multiple fins isn't enough (thats merely either pseudo marketing or poor science) - their result could be 'in spite of' rather than 'because of'. Surely someone can field test this stateside with actual numbers ?
I wish someone in the UK could fit these. I'd love to try the mod on one of my race boards.
This setup works very well under many conditions. I did my testing on flat lake water to see if there is speed difference
between 4 fins (6 inch center fin) and single fin (10 inch) setup... I could not get a consistent speed difference between the two setups.
The payoff however, came in the form of superior tracking and oversteering control which the 4 fins won hands down.
The problem with this setup in my experience is not if it works or not, it's whether you can get your hands on the fins to begin
with. It takes time to dial in the right fin setup for your board, but every tweak that I had to make took 2 months on average
until I can get my hands on the fins. I'm now in the 9th month waiting for my last batch and it's already been 2 months
but still no fins. I'm starting to wonder if this is really worth it. It takes longer than having a baby.
Unless you're sure you can get your fin supply in much shorter intervals. Be aware of
what your getting your self into. That was my experience, I can't speak for others.
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So I had a little chat with Larry today, he took pity on me as he saw my rant about the long wait periods. I got a little look inside the process and have a better understanding why am I one of those who get to wait a longer than usual.
Apparently, most of the fins I have are custom made specifically for me and are not the usual production fins (with much faster turn-around times). Every custom fins that goes out, is being finished specifically by Larry, add to that the specific color templates that I've asked for (with lead time of up to 4 weeks if not in stock) and the fact that its the middle of the busy season and you'll get a sense of the timing.
The other factor is that my board is unique (2-piece SIC FX 12'6 custom) and first of its kind to go with this setup plus the installation of the fin boxes was done by SIC and not by Larry (he never phisically saw it since I got this board before SIC released it to the market as production) so that added some guess work and trial and error to get closer to dial-in the right setup for me.
To sum it up, if you have a regular production board that was modified by Larry or one of his affiliated shops, your route to fin nirvana may be a lot shorter than mine. Copy that Larry. Thx for the compassion. ;)
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Larry what what would your thoughts be on putting a three fin set up on a dw board. The 16' fixed fin I just built works good it has a very surfy feel to its however length when going slow it some times gets twisted around a bit but cross chop so thinking spreading out the fin area will help and maybe do a thruster or quad setup as it is basically just a big gun at the end of the day?
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Larry what what would your thoughts be on putting a three fin set up on a dw board. The 16' fixed fin I just built works good it has a very surfy feel to its however length when going slow it some times gets twisted around a bit but cross chop so thinking spreading out the fin area will help and maybe do a thruster or quad setup as it is basically just a big gun at the end of the day?
Supuk: I would like 4 measurements on this board.
1) measure across the center of the exsisting rear box from rail to rail and give me that width:
2) Give me the length from the back of the existing box to tail:
3) measure from rail to rail up from the tail until you reach 15 1/2":
4) then tell me the distance from the tail to that line measuring 15 1/2" from rail to rail:
Below is a pic of a Savage River Needle 18' running Twins with Ventral
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1)15.56
2)18.50
4)23.8
My aim is to increase the tracking of it when going slow but keep the surfy feel when on the bumps which is why I was wondering about a thruster style set up, it is obviously a pure down wind board.
best regards
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1)15.56
2)18.50
4)23.8
My aim is to increase the tracking of it when going slow but keep the surfy feel when on the bumps which is why I was wondering about a thruster style set up, it is obviously a pure down wind board.
best regards
Would you be able to fit this kind of a fin set up in the UK ?
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Yes no problem
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Yes no problem
Thanks. I'll bear thins in mind as I quite fancy having a play and doing some testing of this mod to a contemporary flatwater race board.
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I am Stoked to see people from the other side of the world understand the benefit of Allison Multiple Sup fin set-up.
Quote from Mattias on my Facebook Page Sup Race Fins:
Mattias Unander to Sup Race Fins
4 hrs · Kungsbacka, Sweden ·
Borrowed my wife's board this weekend, the Bark we bought from Henrik Friberg. 3+1 setup took the gold spot in the amateur class of the Swedish Championships over 3kms. Just for fun and none of us were dedicated athletes but I still like the fact that I outpaddled several people on 14' boards on a 12'6". Thanks Larry!
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Just wanted to bring this thread back up showing the Journey to a Reality. Here is a page on Paddleboard Specialists with the 2017 Infinity Lineup with Probox Race Twins and Allison Ventral as a stock item. Thank you my friends for believing in the real deal. Mahalo, Larry
http://www.paddleboardspecialists.com/prodinfo.asp?number=IN17BL1425NE
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Thought I would bump this thread from the recent chain of calls and emails requesting it's info. Thanks for the support my friends. Mahalo
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I really cannot understand why some prefer a ventral fin instead a removable centerboard, about 2 ft ahead of paddler's feet.a centerboard is removable in Dwinding condition and can be bigger in up/side winds. .having a fixednon removable front fin in such conditions is just idiot. removable centerboard is the easy and efficient solution some of us used it several years ago.
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I've got a second hand Infinity Whiplash, and the ventral fin on my board is most certainly removable.
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Not to put words in his mouth but I take what Pierre is saying as it's adjustable on the fly. Yes, you could stop, flip the board over and remove the ventrical fin in theory. But it's not practical.
Furthermore you can't adjust the area...so whatever size you chose is always going to be a compromise. If it's optimum for upwind/side wind it going to be too big downwind...if it sized for downwind it's not going to be optimal for upwind/sidewind.
Manufactures choose the easiest way with the largest margin...not necessarily the best solution. And think about the warrantee nightmares with the centerboard...they have enough issues with finboxes, handles and leash plugs.
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I really cannot understand why some prefer a ventral fin instead a removable centerboard, about 2 ft ahead of paddler's feet.a centerboard is removable in Dwinding condition and can be bigger in up/side winds. .having a fixednon removable front fin in such conditions is just idiot. removable centerboard is the easy and efficient solution some of us used it several years ago.
What made you think this is fixed fin is beyond me. I have 3 different ventral sizes for
various conditions, can be attached or removed in 5 seconds flat.
Put it 2 fit from your feet and it starts to work against you. I have 2 ventral boxes installed
on my Blackfish. One is 28" ahead of my feet, the other is 18". the 18 works a lot better
when it gets choppy.
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Not to put words in his mouth but I take what Pierre is saying as it's adjustable on the fly. Yes, you could stop, flip the board over and remove the ventrical fin in theory. But it's not practical.
Furthermore you can't adjust the area...
That's exactly the issue with the "on the fly" method. Your stuck with what you chose...
With my ventrals, I can still replace to a different size mid ride. Not ideal for sure but
it's way better than get stuck with the wrong one for the entire ride or with non at all.
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I really cannot understand why some prefer a ventral fin instead a removable centerboard, about 2 ft ahead of paddler's feet.a centerboard is removable in Dwinding condition and can be bigger in up/side winds. .having a fixednon removable front fin in such conditions is just idiot. removable centerboard is the easy and efficient solution some of us used it several years ago.
Pierre, I can see by your comments you have NO Understanding what a Ventral Fins Purpose is. I am not going to waste my time explaining to you again with all this data here and reviews by users. I will be putting together a 3 part video breaking down the function of a 4 fin application in the Sup world, NOT WINDSURF OR SURFING WORLD!!!!!
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Not to put words in his mouth but I take what Pierre is saying as it's adjustable on the fly. Yes, you could stop, flip the board over and remove the ventrical fin in theory. But it's not practical.
Furthermore you can't adjust the area...
[/quote
That's exactly the issue with the "on the fly" method. Your stuck with what you chose...
With my ventrals, I can still replace to a different size mid ride. Not ideal for sure but
it's way better than get stuck with the wrong one for the entire ride or with non at all.
.please expound on your thoughts. Centerboards & dagerboards have the ability to increase/decrease area at any time. So in reality a cenertboard or more accurately a daggerboard in this case, gives countless choices between completely withdrawn to fully deployed and every increment in between ...how is that being stuck with what you choose? I'm not following you?
Hove you ever sailed cats? It would be like a daggerboard vs a fixed keel. In catamaran sailing there is no comparison....daggerboard wins hands down by its ability to adapt to any point of sail.
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Not to put words in his mouth but I take what Pierre is saying as it's adjustable on the fly. Yes, you could stop, flip the board over and remove the ventrical fin in theory. But it's not practical.
Furthermore you can't adjust the area...
[/quote
That's exactly the issue with the "on the fly" method. Your stuck with what you chose...
With my ventrals, I can still replace to a different size mid ride. Not ideal for sure but
it's way better than get stuck with the wrong one for the entire ride or with non at all.
.please expound on your thoughts. Centerboards & dagerboards have the ability to increase/decrease area at any time. So in reality a cenertboard or more accurately a daggerboard in this case, gives countless choices between completely withdrawn to fully deployed and every increment in between ...how is that being stuck with what you choose? I'm not following you?
Hove you ever sailed cats? It would be like a daggerboard vs a fixed keel. In catamaran sailing there is no comparison....daggerboard wins hands down by its ability to adapt to any point of sail.
The daggerboard implementation I saw from Pierre was either In or Out, very rudimentary
hand operated engagement mechanism. The template of the this fin is a drag trap and
the placement seemed very off based on my experience.
SIC tried something like this but with a much more refined template and a foot operated
retracting mechanism with a left and right steering position, it sucked and never saw the
light of day.
I can see why Pierre might need that since the boards I've seen from him are very rounded
bottom with crazy roll, but it just seems like a case of diminishing returns where you kill all
the speed of the rounded bottom with the daggerboard drag.
Even with Larry's refined ventral, when switching between the small and the large
ventral, drag is somewhat noticeable but in open ocean roll and chop the added stability
was welcomed. Tried it with a deeper fin and it killed the ride. SUP is not a sailboat.
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Thanks Burcha for your explanation...I was thinking a much more refined application...not an all or nothing. I have heard before that SIC experimented with a similar concept and pursued it no further. Because Mark did not find merritt in his application does not forever close the books on its overall viability.
Windsurfing went through multiple re-incarnations of the same ideas only to reach significant different outcomes when working together with complimentary advancements.
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Because Mark did not find merritt in his application does not forever close the books on its overall viability.
I know what you mean. The only reason I know about it is because I was looking for
solutions my self when I was just starting with SUP. The more I paddled I realized most
conditions can be mitigated with good technic and board design.
Looking back at all the "Crazy" ideas I had I realize how much I've learn since to the
point it all seem like novelty. I can't say that about Larry's 4 fin system which offer
benefits even to the most experienced pros. Still a niche for the performance minded.
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Not to put words in his mouth but I take what Pierre is saying as it's adjustable on the fly. Yes, you could stop, flip the board over and remove the ventrical fin in theory. But it's not practical.
Furthermore you can't adjust the area...
[/quote
That's exactly the issue with the "on the fly" method. Your stuck with what you chose...
With my ventrals, I can still replace to a different size mid ride. Not ideal for sure but
it's way better than get stuck with the wrong one for the entire ride or with non at all.
.please expound on your thoughts. Centerboards & dagerboards have the ability to increase/decrease area at any time. So in reality a cenertboard or more accurately a daggerboard in this case, gives countless choices between completely withdrawn to fully deployed and every increment in between ...how is that being stuck with what you choose? I'm not following you?
Hove you ever sailed cats? It would be like a daggerboard vs a fixed keel. In catamaran sailing there is no comparison....daggerboard wins hands down by its ability to adapt to any point of sail.
The daggerboard implementation I saw from Pierre was either In or Out, very rudimentary
hand operated engagement mechanism. The template of the this fin is a drag trap and
the placement seemed very off based on my experience.
SIC tried something like this but with a much more refined template and a foot operated
retracting mechanism with a left and right steering position, it sucked and never saw the
light of day.
I can see why Pierre might need that since the boards I've seen from him are very rounded
bottom with crazy roll, but it just seems like a case of diminishing returns where you kill all
the speed of the rounded bottom with the daggerboard drag.
Even with Larry's refined ventral, when switching between the small and the large
ventral, drag is somewhat noticeable but in open ocean roll and chop the added stability
was welcomed. Tried it with a deeper fin and it killed the ride. SUP is not a sailboat.
Open ocean? Surely you don't use ventral/multi fin setups in ocean DW conditions?
Doesn't that adversely effect maneuverability? How do you foot steer and slip and slide with the uneven bumps and troughs with that much drag/fin area?
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Strictly downwinding in the ocean I can't comment on as I don't get to do any of that here but for general ocean paddling the ventral helps. I removed mine once to see what the difference was and it only took a couple minutes for me to decide to turn around and put it back in. In smaller chop downwinding it does want to run straight for sure, it pretty much refuses to angle across which is understandable since the whole length pretty much stays in the water.
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Open ocean? Surely you don't use ventral/multi fin setups in ocean DW conditions?
Doesn't that adversely effect maneuverability? How do you foot steer and slip and slide with the uneven bumps and troughs with that much drag/fin area?
I wish all my open ocean sessions were downwind runs but the reality for me is more of
open ocean grind. You guys in OZ got it good. And yes, on a pure downwinder it doesn't
make sense to use anything but a single fin.
On a messy downwinder, I can make the case of using the stealth twins as well (3 fins, no ventral)
without being penalized much on rail steering. That would only make sense on an all-water wide
tail boards and maybe pintail boards with very rounded bottom and not pure downwind boards, so
probably non of it relates to your situation.
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Ventral fins are hideous on downwinders, for the same reason that centerboards are--they make the board unpredictable and cause it to round up violently in big swells. Moves the center of resistance forward of the paddler and makes a big, nasty pivot point. I get what Pierre is talking about, having a small classic centerboard that you can kick up in mid-stroke would be pretty cool, and if you could make it deeper in crosswind that would be fine too. He's not talking about being able to flip the board over and swap the fin, he's talking about a true centerboard--or more accurately, a daggerboard.
But yeah, for the most part, that complexity has been eliminated from board sports as technique refined. You won't find windsurfers relying on centerboards to go upwind anymore, even though they made it very easy and efficient. My first windsurfer had a centerboard I could kick down. It could point like a sailboat with the centerboard down, but it was a sissy thing to use, so I left it on the beach, dug in my rail, and struggled to make way. Such is the force of ego over reason. The mechanisms were minimal drag. They had retracting covers over the slot that were flush to the bottom. Probably less drag than an empty ventral slot.
My ancient 12'2" Starboard has a Tuttle box for a daggerboard--currently filled with a blank and waxed over. the old 12'6" starboards came with either a Tuttle centerboard or a foot-operated daggerboard. How soon you guys forget. Those were intended for sailing the boards, but I experimented with little ventral Tuttle fins a back when I first got my 12'2". When rocks were new, paddles were wood, and paddlers were iron. Arrggh.
Burchas--SIC did it wrong. Mark has a remarkable willingness to develop something to a remarkable degree before he tests it. He makes these gorgeous, perfect, incredible mechanisms and then puts them in the wrong place because he didn't try ten quick and dirty designs before he did the beautiful one. He did his front and back steering rudders with the front rudder too far forward--ahead of the start of the nose rocker. So when the nose came up in a swell, the rudder went high and dry. If you made some steering correction while it was in the air, guess what happened when it dropped back into the water. I think the only person who could ride that thing was Livio, and he hated it. Move the front rudder back behind the nose rocker so it always stays engaged and you have effortless linked turns with minimal rudder action. Minimal rudder = less drag.
Same thing with the switchblade ventral fin (not a daggerboard). Gorgeous execution--I nearly fainted with lust when I saw the mechanism. Little to no testing. I think Mark just lost interest.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying ventral fins don't make sense, I like them. But when you move from the upwind or crosswind leg of a course to the downwind leg, you're likely to wish you didn't have one. If you could step on a handle and make it disappear--you'd do it in a heartbeat. And when you go to turn around a buoy you better not have anyone outside you--this truck makes wide turns.
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I have been on 4 fin setups (Larry's) on different boards for five years now I actually wouldn't be without them.
If I go upwind, it is a lot easier to hold the board in that direction and not getting pushed out of track.
In sidechop same thing. The ventral helps the nose track and the rear fins keep the tail from being pushed.
When downwinding in smaller waves I can footsteer the board in parallell stance and it will turn hard when the board is leaned outwards and I think that is brilliant.
Downwinding in bigger waves, just step back and trim the board and fins. Then you lift the ventral out of the water and and take a surf stance and steer it like a surfboard. The three engaged fins now helps me hold the board on the wave.
When I do a bouy turn I lift the nose out of the water and the ventral is disengaged and the three rear fins makes it alot easier to balance the board. This goes especially when you have a large volume board like a Starboard. (What you have to do is to move the rear center box a bit forward from the factory made position because it is placed too far back).
For me it is all about trimming the board by moving around on the board and the 4fin setup helps me with what I whant to do. They are an aid when you trim the board.
Personally, I wouldn't buy a car without an airconditioning. I would like to be able to turn the AC on when I need it or choose not to use it when I don't want to.
Henrik F
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<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fcrosswater.se%2Fvideos%2F1307319089350722%2F&show_text=0&width=560" width="560" height="315" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe>
I think this video will help some!
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i totally get were bill is coming from and have found the same, and not every turn i do i want to do a pivot turn be it for what ever reason and when the boards flat the ventral just makes it that much harder and wastes that much more energy. in with regards to the video that's not down winding that's surfing, I'm sure that its fine when its out of the water but the time that you are fully plaining on a down winder on a 14+ foot board is very minimal and quite often you are going down waves with the hole front of the board engaged to get the sling shot across to another hole and here they do not work well. Like bill said have one that is retractable which wouldn't be hard and It would be a lot more use full but like the windsurfer i would be rather without one than stuck with one on most of my boards
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Been thinking about re inventing th wheel today and then maybe later on - I'll come out with the automobile :D
Jesus! :o
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Personally, I wouldn't buy a car without an airconditioning. I would like to be able to turn the AC on when I need it or choose not to use it when I don't want to.
Henrik Fy
Your statement makes the case for a retractable centerboard/daggerboard not a ventral fin. The ventral fin would equate to having the AC in your car with an on/off switch under the hood with no option to vary the temperature from inside the car or even turn it on or off from inside the car.
The more it is explained, and the more video seen of it, the more it seems like falls somewhere between a viable way to increase a too narrow boards stability in rough conditions (other than down wind) and a crutch for poor paddling technique.
Not the same thing of course but it reminds me of the canard fin fad that came and went in windsurfing...a crutch, helping sailors with poor jumping technique from spinning out as easy when trying to land a poorly executed jump compounded by poorly foiled main fins. When the root issues were addressed the canard fin was unnecessary.
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Hey! I really liked those canard fins! But they were glass over a foam core and couldn't handle my bashing.
And yeah, I know, they were making good on my shitty jump landings, but they did a great job of it.
Cool video Larry.
Again, don't get me wrong, I'm sold on three fins for flatwater. Not quite so much for downwinding, though it might just be my rudder addiction. And I like Ventral fins for flatwater, upwind and crosswind. But they suck toads downwinding. And yeah, I know, if you get half the board out of the water so the fin clears they will pivot turn. But that's one more thing to deal with in a race. My turns aren't that good, and my crappy balance rules my decision-making. For other people, it might not be a big deal at all and could be totally worth it. I can't speak to that, I just give information about what I find to be true for me.
Henrick--might be partly a board difference. My four-fin board is a 2015 Blackfish, which has very straight rails and a square tail. Pushing on the rails does nothing to steer it. I wanted to use it for downwinding, so I did a lot of painful experimenting. The only thing that worked for me was a single Squirrel fin and a similar design tip-weighted fin that Larry sent me. I can steer with those, but it's still not quick enough for Columbia River downwinders with me as the pilot. Alyson Fromm absolutely rocks on hers, but she's using a single fin as well for downwind.
Thaks for reminding me of that switchblade ventral fin. I need to beg Mark to give me one. I'm sure he has all the stuff to make them, and he might have a prototype or two hanging around.
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The more it is explained, and the more video seen of it, the more it seems like falls somewhere between a viable way to increase a too narrow boards stability in rough conditions (other than down wind) and a crutch for poor paddling technique.
Not quite but I could see where you are coming from and you would need to try one to get the better picture and see if you like it or not. The effect is not as drastic as it seems. The most benefit is really to provide help when quartering/side. It will also slow down a tiny bit of rolling on a narrow board. It is very helpful for a long paddle in mixed conditions. If there is some down-breezer involved, it is still very manageable. It will not replace poor paddling technique but will actually support and reward good techniques in these conditions.
The twins fins are the one providing more stability by slowing noticeably the rolling of a narrow board so saving your legs from doing a lot of work.
When I go for a down-winder there is often a shuttle involved and so I know beforehand what I am going to do. It is easy to take out all the fins and pop-in a downwind fin.
The system will not change a crappy board into a great board but will provide a slightly different feel and support your technique in most mixed conditions.
Norm Hann one of the best paddler in Canada and a king for long-distance mixed waters races recently converted to using it (on two Blackfish) and so far is really enjoying it.
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This has me thinking about front steering again. I'd like to perfect that. I think Mark was on the right track but the failure of the first try discouraged him. It was a gorgeous mechanism and he did the front rudder right for sizing, using an FCS fin box to make it replaceable. Front steering rudders can be very small. The best way to do it would be an RC rudder with separate servos for the front and back rudders. You could then set trim, control proportion and expo independently, switch between front, back, both and/or counter steering, and probably even change proportion and trim on the fly. A lot to screw with, but with a microcontroller I could use some simple commands to do complex things.
Rear rudders are drag pigs, but front rudders actually reduce drag because they take turning and course-maintaining load off the rails and don't follow the snake trail that upwind/crosswind generally causes with foot steering. I did a wind vane-steered front rudder on an old Glide 14 long ago. It was wonderful upwind and crosswind--felt like it had a motor helping me. Downwind it was a horror. It tossed Rod Parmenter all over the river and he has the reflexes of a cat. Hilarious to watch for me, not so funny for Rod.
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A ventral fin is the last thing I would want on my 14' downwind board. When surfing the 14 a ventral would be a disaster. I often find myself trying to get past a section that has already broken and I depend on the nose to slide with the white water as I pass by. The same for heading out, if I'm going over some small white water at an angle I need the nose to slide so the board is predictable. Sure the ventral would be out of the water at times. It's those times that it's doing it's job are the problem in surf. Also if you are as shitty as I am doing a pivot turn the ventral would just be torture trying to turn the board around.
Larry's video is nice but misleading. Show me an extended cut of how it behaves on a wave and not just pivot turning.
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It isn't. Cross bow draws require a little more effort but are still easy enough. Pivot turns aren't effected once the front of the board is up a few inches. It doesn't have to be 45degrees out. Even given any problems turning, which I don't have, the rocket ship starts make up a lot more of a difference.
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That might be true for you, but it certainly isn't for me. Doing a cross bow turn with a ventral fin planted is very hard and very slow. Get it out of the water and it's fine, but that is exactly the point. Most buoy turns are chaotic. I can't imagine farting around getting the fin clear at a PPG-style race with twenty people banging into me. I don't need something that's potentially working against me screwing up something I don't do well to begin with. There's an old picture on facebook somewhere of me trying to turn my Speedboard with ventral fin in place at a race in Portland. I look like I'm headed to the wild blue. I think Randall Barna passed me at every buoy. I got him in the straights, but it was a lot of work only to toss it away.
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/474783_10151487943905784_1405513347_o.jpg?oh=e427cf1e044f64a33a88440e5b10084b&oe=59D23C72)
I look like I was giving birth trying to get that thing turned. Wow, that knee surgery scar used to be pretty prominent. I haven't seen this picture for years. That dimple is pretty much gone.
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Yeah when I used that Eradicator with ventral it turned slow with a cross bow but fast stepping back and lifting it out of the water for zero drag.
DW ventral is no no around here. No one we know uses one. Lifting or tipping it up like a daggerboard might work somehow tho.
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It isn't. Cross bow draws require a little more effort but are still easy enough. Pivot turns aren't effected once the front of the board is up a few inches. It doesn't have to be 45degrees out. Even given any problems turning, which I don't have, the rocket ship starts make up a lot more of a difference.
That's my experience as well. Cross Bow is my go to turn as I'm still not super comfortable
with pivot turns outside of flat water. Just got back from the water and with all this talk
about the ventral I decided to remove it.
Good day to play with it as it wasn't too windy, so just enough chop, boat wakes and wind to give it an all around go and it just emphasized to me why I like to use it. The board is so much
more predictable upwind, cross wind and able to maintain rhythm much easier under those
conditions. The minor penalty in cross bow turns doesn't compare to rest of the gains it
provides.
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I am going to have to agree with Warmuth and Burchas on the cross bow pivot turn with a forward ventral fin on board.
I find the cross bow turn on my 2017 Blackfish running with the single 6in Allison Stinger to be quite easy and relatively fast, with no step back and elevation of the nose. It is my go to type of turn for the same reasons documented by several in this thread.
What I do believe can make the difference is a cross bow pivot turn, properly executed.
Crucial for fast execution for me is lowing my center of gravity significantly and rather exacting placement/movement of the paddle. With you're lower half planted very low, and quick reversal of the paddle upon completion of the turn can save precious seconds, and avoid balance errors when making a series of quick, short paddle strokes to get back up to speed.
I rarely see the cross bow pivot turn executed with confidence and speed. It's a practiced skill, much as one would expect to do trying to perfect the step back, error prone, pivot turn.
The cross bow pivot turn just hasn't been deemed "sexy" by the elites.
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Totally unsexy, though I actually learned it from watching Connor dink around back when he was about twelve. It's my go-to maneuver both for turns and steering on non-rudder boards. It can be kind of tricky when it's bumpy, but it's a lot easier than trying to lighten the nose. But all the real racers have their version of a buoy turn, usually executed right at the buoy with great precision. Mush faster than the slow curve of a cross bow turn, but take a lot more skill and better balance. We have a bunch of buoys out in Nichols basin for practicing, and I go out and make a fool of myself every so often. I don't think I've improved a lick, but it's kind of fun in a masochistic way.
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The cross bow pivot turn just hasn't been deemed "sexy" by the elites.
Might be of interest to other newbies like me.
Here is an intro into 5 turns to learn for winter.
Backstroke-Forward Stroke Turn
Lean Turn
Cross Bow Turn
Pivot Turn
> Cross Bow Pivot Turn <
http://www.supthemag.com/features/skills/video-turn-sup-like-pro/?utm_content=sf37959866&utm_medium=spredfast&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=SUP+Magazine&sf37959866=1#YPoJwy7p8zhiRQt3.97
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I don't think I've improved a lick, but it's kind of fun in a masochistic way.
Not to say very refreshing :-)
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The cross bow pivot turn just hasn't been deemed "sexy" by the elites.
Might be of interest to other newbies like me.
Here is an intro into 5 turns to learn for winter.
Backstroke-Forward Stroke Turn
Lean Turn
Cross Bow Turn
Luc... this is a great video by a master. I have taken a clinic with Anthony.. and the turn drills work if practiced. Anthony preaches using the right turn for the circumstances and/or conditions, and by no means discredits the merits of the cross bow turn or the even more challenging backside cross bow....
Pivot Turn
> Cross Bow Pivot Turn <
http://www.supthemag.com/features/skills/video-turn-sup-like-pro/?utm_content=sf37959866&utm_medium=spredfast&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=SUP+Magazine&sf37959866=1#YPoJwy7p8zhiRQt3.97
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Picked up my Ron House Coastal Cruiser today from Larry, with a fresh set of ProBox + Triple delight fins.
The set up looks killer, and workmanship is top notch. I was anxious to get it in the water, so went directly to my usual spot in Torrance Beach, where I paddle up/down the beach breaks and around the peninsula, surfing sand bars and reefs.
1-2 ft swell, 5 knot winds, and some surface texture today.
My first impression upon hopping up on my board was "WOW"!! This thing is super stable. Much more so than with any previous single fin on this same board. The dramatic increase in stability made my board feel like it was 1-2" wider!! I previously paddled this board with the stock Riviera "SR" fin, Gladiator Hybrid, and Ninja single fins. The current Triple Delight felt rock solid in the surf zone and light chop. Tracking was straight and true also.
Paddled into a few waves, and the 12'6" responded confidently. Coming off the bottom turn, the board shot back up the face, and the fins locked into the upper 1/3 of the wave face, with no slippage. Dang....this is cool!!
Couldn't resist paddling back out and repeating same scenario:)
Bonus: Kelp shedding is a non-issue with these shorter, and raked fins.
Our rocky coastline is heavily surrounded by thick mats of kelp. The fins skimmed over the carpet with no hiccups.
Thanks Larry--this Triple Delight set up is perfect!!!!
Amazing after reading some of the comments here most don't understand what a Ventral purpose really is, here is a post from a guy that I did his coastal runner no Ventral. Let me explain something SIMPLE! It you have alot of paddle engagement to move your board then you need a Ventral. If your board is moving with LITTLE to NO PADDLE engagement by the aid of Mother Nature pushing you then you can opt out the Ventral for that condition. A Ventral is not the same as a Dagger forward fin or Canard Fin. You guys take one element of my concept and bet it to death in you cyber brain by never trying it and making a conclusion cracks me up. This thread has alot of good information with other people who tried the multiple fins that answer your comments.
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"But all the real racers have their version of a buoy turn, usually executed right at the buoy with great precision. Mush faster than the slow curve of a cross bow turn, but take a lot more skill and better balance." Yep. Should learn how to do that anyways as always good to improve your skill set.
"If your board is moving with LITTLE to NO PADDLE engagement by the aid of Mother Nature pushing you then you can opt out the Ventral for that condition." Yep also.
https://youtu.be/NSMQT2PX6_8
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The myth about surfing with a Ventral, LOL. Some may not like it but the bottom line is that alot of you over look the options with a board running over 2000 dollars. I got a call today from the owner of Paddleboard Specialists. He told me 2 days ago a customer came in and bought a production Blackfish with Allison Probox Twin and Ventral along with a Whiplash, yes 2 boards. 2 days later the customer brought back the Whiplash and when asked why the customer stated, he GPS both the Whiplash and Blackfish with all the fins and seen no different in his GPS numbers it made no sense to have 2 boards for flatwater. The customer was stoked with the range and feel of the blackfish to work in both flat and Open ocean with multiple fins. With the right fin and placement these are the results, but with the wrong fins and wrong placement and Canted fins your Raceboard will SUCK. Don't blame me for the manufacture's lack of understanding and doing things wrong or expanding off of me and calling it their design to make more money, because that will happen as momentment keeps going like it is. Which is why I say beware of everyone now being a Fin Designer, LOL!
Anyway back to the feel of a Ventral 16 year old Hansen catching a Wave with Ventral and Dave B. catching the wave and making a bouey turn with Ventral assist.
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Picked up my Ron House Coastal Cruiser today from Larry, with a fresh set of ProBox + Triple delight fins.
The set up looks killer, and workmanship is top notch. I was anxious to get it in the water, so went directly to my usual spot in Torrance Beach, where I paddle up/down the beach breaks and around the peninsula, surfing sand bars and reefs.
1-2 ft swell, 5 knot winds, and some surface texture today.
My first impression upon hopping up on my board was "WOW"!! This thing is super stable. Much more so than with any previous single fin on this same board. The dramatic increase in stability made my board feel like it was 1-2" wider!! I previously paddled this board with the stock Riviera "SR" fin, Gladiator Hybrid, and Ninja single fins. The current Triple Delight felt rock solid in the surf zone and light chop. Tracking was straight and true also.
Paddled into a few waves, and the 12'6" responded confidently. Coming off the bottom turn, the board shot back up the face, and the fins locked into the upper 1/3 of the wave face, with no slippage. Dang....this is cool!!
Couldn't resist paddling back out and repeating same scenario:)
Bonus: Kelp shedding is a non-issue with these shorter, and raked fins.
Our rocky coastline is heavily surrounded by thick mats of kelp. The fins skimmed over the carpet with no hiccups.
Thanks Larry--this Triple Delight set up is perfect!!!!
Amazing after reading some of the comments here most don't understand what a Ventral purpose really is, here is a post from a guy that I did his coastal runner no Ventral. Let me explain something SIMPLE! It you have alot of paddle engagement to move your board then you need a Ventral. If your board is moving with LITTLE to NO PADDLE engagement by the aid of Mother Nature pushing you then you can opt out the Ventral for that condition. A Ventral is not the same as a Dagger forward fin or Canard Fin. You guys take one element of my concept and bet it to death in you cyber brain by never trying it and making a conclusion cracks me up. This thread has alot of good information with other people who tried the multiple fins that answer your comments.
I had the pleasure to try this Costal Cruiser 3 years ago when ProBox-Larry retro-fitted it to the 4 fin system. We went to Cabrillo Beach in San Pedro, CA, which is usually unpredictable in it's water conditions. That morning the wind kicked up some pretty nasty chop and I was reluctant to be the test pilot. To my surprise, the board was extremely stable and fast in the rough conditions. In fact, the Costal Cruiser was quite enjoyable to paddle. Going downwind was quick and zippy, while the upwind paddle was effortless. I made a note to myself to pick up a costal cruiser if I ever had an opportunity to find a used one.
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Found a pic of me on the costal cruiser. Really loved that board after ProBox improved the fin-age.
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Found a pic of me on the costal cruiser. Really loved that board after ProBox improved the fin-age.
Found another pic of that same day with a wider angle of the conditions Brodog
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Larry,
I'm considering doing a remodel on the bottom of this older Richmond. Adding some chines, flattening the bottom some and adding bevel at the rail stabilize the board. What multi fin set-up would you recommend for this board?
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Larry,
I'm considering doing a remodel on the bottom of this older Richmond. Adding some chines, flattening the bottom some and adding bevel at the rail stabilize the board. What multi fin set-up would you recommend for this board?
Nice to see you share in my friend. That board would run the same set up as Dale Chapman installed in this board for Mick Di Betta. Small Ventral front with 4by 10 Elliptical Twins and 6 Inch Stinger Kick. First need to know the width over the center of your fin box from rail to rail. The board from Mick was 30 inches from the tail.
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Interesting.
We get very, very varied conditions where I paddle. Very rarely do we get Hawaii like straight runs, you are usually cutting one way or the other and dealing with lots of refraction from cliffs.
We train and do course races in very, very varied conditions too from dead flat water to side swell/chop , boat wash to upwind grind.
I wish I had Maliko on my doorstep!!!! :) :)
As a training/equipment testing ground we couldn't ask for better.
I digress; I can use my Starboard Ace 14 x 25" in every condition up to 20kn+ DW(then its time for the big boards). I love the way the Ace rolls,slips and slides through the bumps. I have not paddled another 14' to match it so far. I use a single fin setup. (I won't go into what I use here as I think that would be rude to the OP) If anything I would consider going to an even smaller single fin.
I can't help but feel that if you need so many extra fins to help cope with conditions then your board is too narrow for you. Perhaps its a good way to truely have one board for everything?
I dont know. its interesting. :)
Open ocean? Surely you don't use ventral/multi fin setups in ocean DW conditions?
Doesn't that adversely effect maneuverability? How do you foot steer and slip and slide with the uneven bumps and troughs with that much drag/fin area?
I wish all my open ocean sessions were downwind runs but the reality for me is more of
open ocean grind. You guys in OZ got it good. And yes, on a pure downwinder it doesn't
make sense to use anything but a single fin.
On a messy downwinder, I can make the case of using the stealth twins as well (3 fins, no ventral)
without being penalized much on rail steering. That would only make sense on an all-water wide
tail boards and maybe pintail boards with very rounded bottom and not pure downwind boards, so
probably non of it relates to your situation.
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Perhaps its a good way to truely have one board for everything?
I dont know. its interesting. :)
Yap, you hit the nail on the head. 4 fins will benefit you in most conditions
- Flat water - Better forward momentum, glide and tracking thus higher average speed.
- cross wind/side chop - more equal stroke count per side, better stability, tracking and
rhythm thus higher average speed.
- headwind - board is more predictable, nose doesn't get pushed around as much thus
better rhythm and higher average speed
- Open water rough conditions - for me on the 14x24 ,it's the difference between mostly
paddling to mostly swimming :D
Paddlers on a higher caliber, once they dialed-in their setups, could put it to even better
use. See Mick Di Betta's board above.
You described your area as the best training/equipment testing ground, so you're in a
a perfect position to put this setup to a good use. Like you said, very interesting ;)
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I understand your skepticism Kieran--I shared it, still share it, sort of. I'm skeptical of anything that works if I don't understand why it does. I don't like that.
The odd thing about the Larry multi fins is that they actually feel low drag. My fastest configuration so far is small twins with a ventral or fence between them. I'm pretty sure if I measured the area of those three fins they would be substantially bigger than one of my test single fins. and yet they are faster. I don't like them for downwind, I feel like I'm just a passenger, but upwind, crosswind or flat, they're faster. Not a little faster within the error band. I mean WTF just happened faster.
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I understand your skepticism Kieran--I shared it, still share it, sort of. I'm skeptical of anything that works if I don't understand why it does. I don't like that.
The odd thing about the Larry multi fins is that they actually feel low drag. My fastest configuration so far is small twins with a ventral or fence between them. I'm pretty sure if I measured the area of those three fins they would be substantially bigger than one of my test single fins. and yet they are faster. I don't like them for downwind, I feel like I'm just a passenger, but upwind, crosswind or flat, they're faster. Not a little faster within the error band. I mean WTF just happened faster.
Maybe the reduction of the depth of the fins is creating less turbulent flow (even if the net surface area is the same).
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I understand your skepticism Kieran--I shared it, still share it, sort of. I'm skeptical of anything that works if I don't understand why it does. I don't like that.
The odd thing about the Larry multi fins is that they actually feel low drag. My fastest configuration so far is small twins with a ventral or fence between them. I'm pretty sure if I measured the area of those three fins they would be substantially bigger than one of my test single fins. and yet they are faster. I don't like them for downwind, I feel like I'm just a passenger, but upwind, crosswind or flat, they're faster. Not a little faster within the error band. I mean WTF just happened faster.
Maybe the reduction of the depth of the fins is creating less turbulent flow (even if the net surface area is the same).
Ukgm, Your are partly right, but Placement of Fins and Fin Foils with Cants are other factors.
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Had a Allstar 14ft by 25 " show up for Allison Probox Race Twins today. Also after my New York Paddling guest Yuval test rode this 14ft by 23" Bluefin Focus, got the email from the owner of Focus, Jacob this morning to retro fit the Bluefin for them to ride with Allison Probox Race Twins. Great to see more major Board companies trying Allison Probox Race Twins with Ventral assist. So it continues, more to come that will blow your mind Mahalo my friends for the support!
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I understand your skepticism Kieran--I shared it, still share it, sort of. I'm skeptical of anything that works if I don't understand why it does. I don't like that.
The odd thing about the Larry multi fins is that they actually feel low drag. My fastest configuration so far is small twins with a ventral or fence between them. I'm pretty sure if I measured the area of those three fins they would be substantially bigger than one of my test single fins. and yet they are faster. I don't like them for downwind, I feel like I'm just a passenger, but upwind, crosswind or flat, they're faster. Not a little faster within the error band. I mean WTF just happened faster.
Maybe the reduction of the depth of the fins is creating less turbulent flow (even if the net surface area is the same).
Or, in part, as the board moves through the water, the water closest to the board is pulled along. And, the shallower fins benefit from the water in motion while the deeper fins have to slice through stationary water.
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My board is now in to have the system installed by Supuk (with Larry advising from afar). I'm pretty excited about trying it out. All being well (and if the weather stays mild into October), I should be able to get some hard data and telemetry from field testing using my usual methods before things go cold and nasty and then I'll race it over the winter.
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Well, with the right conditions and weather, I can finally share the results of my testing of the Allison probox system + ventral assist in my 2017 Allstar. I used my standard (and published) testing protocol and used a market leader (and fastest fin I ever tested) as the baseline. I should add that the fins were donated but the install was paid for by me (and undertaken incidentally by SUPUK on here). The graphs shows the result. I'll have to be honest and say I was surprised as I still haven't got the set up to perform quite as I want to and it still felt draggy to me but the numbers don't lie. Larry has great intuition
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Nice results. Which LA setup did you use? i.e. which twins and kick.
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Could still be a placebo effect, I’m afraid.
As a minimum, you need to repeat the study using several paddlers who do not know which fin setup is being used to even get close to a firm scientific conclusion here.
With this study design you can’t counter the argument that all you are showing is that you have invested a lot of money and time and effort in the installation and so are unconsciously paddling better when that setup is in. These kinds of (genuinely) unconscious physical placebo effects can be huge. If you believe it works, it probably will.
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Could still be a placebo effect, I’m afraid.
As a minimum, you need to repeat the study using several paddlers who do not know which fin setup is being used to even get close to a firm scientific conclusion here.
With this study design you can’t counter the argument that all you are showing is that you have invested a lot of money and time and effort in the installation and so are unconsciously paddling better when that setup is in. These kinds of (genuinely) unconscious physical placebo effects can be huge. If you believe it works, it probably will.
Area -10 with all respect. I have been studying and doing this for over 45 years. Especially with this concept for 7 years of Race Twins. Now tests were done by a well respected guy on this forum who you have praised in the past now call it a Placebo effect, LOL! I bet you haven't even rode my setup but yet make comments about it, after thousands of people paid to have their boards converted from before to after with good results. So if any Placebo effect is going on here my friend it's listening to you!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5uCogq9OqA
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiV3cqZOlik
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_8doBgClOU
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Could still be a placebo effect, I’m afraid.
As a minimum, you need to repeat the study using several paddlers who do not know which fin setup is being used to even get close to a firm scientific conclusion here.
With this study design you can’t counter the argument that all you are showing is that you have invested a lot of money and time and effort in the installation and so are unconsciously paddling better when that setup is in. These kinds of (genuinely) unconscious physical placebo effects can be huge. If you believe it works, it probably will.
That's a fair point but I knew you'd say that and I have accounted for that (and there is no way you could blind test this technology reliably anyway). As a result, I also performed some coast down tests of both set ups using some other sensors which will show the differences in raw drag. As no paddling takes place (and you're putting Sir Isaac Newton in the driving seat), placebo can't be a factor. I haven't shown that data yet as:
a) It samples at 100Hz so will take some time to process.
b) I want to publish the test as part of a larger study so won't detail it publicly.
3) It's complimentary to this one and if I see that one is more beneficial on one test and not on the other, I need to think about what that means.
I may put the basic results up of this shortly though. However, using a large sample of paddlers won't work as that only demonstrates if a concept is beneficial generally and that's not actionable intelligence for me as I know the specific set up of any fin is very board and paddler specific.
One last thing - whilst it doesn't contend with placebo directly, note that I'm gettings CV's of 2-3% from my trials of both fin set ups (data variability for those not into their stats). For sports science stuff, that's lab quality repeatability so my controls of my field tests are likely to be pretty decent. If there is placebo, its extremely stable as an effect.
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That sounds interesting. But here’s a couple of extra points:
1. Of course it would be possible to do the test with the paddlers blind to the fin setup. I’ve done experiments with much harder manipulations than that!
2. The principle you are trying to establish, surely, is whether the LA system is better than a single fin? This principle requires that it is true of most people, not just of you. So you do need a variety of paddlers. Not least of course this is because the system maybe be sensitive to things like paddle style or weight etc. We learn little from only knowing how *you* are with these fin setups. You may be atypical (in fact, we know you are).
3. With fins, what aids you in one situation can hinder you in another. So just because a setup is faster in windless flat water when you are paddling alone does not mean it will be faster in real race conditions, or in the sea, etc. So ideally you’d test the setups with a variety of paddlers in a variety of conditions.
It is tough to test fins scientifically in such a way that the results are more than just marketing. But some basic drag-type tests might at least remove the human factor, even if it might not actually translate to faster speeds in real-world racing. For instance, a board might be better perhaps in a slow-down test if it is tracking more truly (under some conditions at least). Yet more tracking of this type might well impede speed when downwinding.
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That sounds interesting. But here’s a couple of extra points:
1. Of course it would be possible to do the test with the paddlers blind to the fin setup. I’ve done experiments with much harder manipulations than that!
2. The principle you are trying to establish, surely, is whether the LA system is better than a single fin? This principle requires that it is true of most people, not just of you. So you do need a variety of paddlers. Not least of course this is because the system maybe be sensitive to things like paddle style or weight etc. We learn little from only knowing how *you* are with these fin setups. You may be atypical (in fact, we know you are).
3. With fins, what aids you in one situation can hinder you in another. So just because a setup is faster in windless flat water when you are paddling alone does not mean it will be faster in real race conditions, or in the sea, etc. So ideally you’d test the setups with a variety of paddlers in a variety of conditions.
4. It is tough to test fins scientifically in such a way that the results are more than just marketing. But some basic drag-type tests might at least remove the human factor, even if it might not actually translate to faster speeds in real-world racing. For instance, a board might be better perhaps in a slow-down test if it is tracking more truly (under some conditions at least). Yet more tracking of this type might well impede speed when downwinding.
1. It wouldn't. Not only could you not keep the change visibly covert but both systems feel different when you paddle. Not only that, you need to test at an appropriate velocity (I went for a racing specific 9kph). I don't think such tests could find a sample to do this reliably. Plus, as I say, even if you did, the answer needs to be specific to a paddler, not a sample. The latter is relevant for a manufacturers claims but the former more relevant for a paddlers performance needs.
2. No, it's to see whether its better for me and me alone. The benefits to a broader cross section aren't my concern and I don't need the benefits of penalties to be averaged out across a sample. That's not what I set out to prove. It's the same with my cycling set up for example - it's tailored to me and other riders may well go slower with it. Its the difference between commercial needs and competitive sports engineering.
3. Agreed and I have not claimed otherwise. I change my tyre pressures if my race road surface is different or i may wear a different skinsuit based on air speed. This is no different.
4. Yep, agreed. I'm still trying to work my way through that data now but as I know you'd know, sometimes a bit of reflection and headscratching is needed before banners get waved. For example, a boards slow down is non-linear so I'm trying to work out how to normalise all the runs against each other as the starting velocity and final velocity won't always be the same in each run. I need to be able to get them comparable.
The bottom line is would I use the Allison set up in my races, yes, some. Would I for all of them ? - no but gaining the objective understanding to make this decision is what I'm doing here. Having been asked to read and comment on both Starboards and Fanatics 2019 catalogues recently, I just can't bear any more pseudo science bullcrap.
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On point 1 we could have a gentleman’s bet: I can guarantee you that I could do this test blind.
On the point about principle vs instance, the danger you are running is that you might become a marketing tool rather than truly adding to our knowledge base. Few who are reading what you are writing will appreciate that you are not claiming that the LA fins are better, only that they are better for *you* under these artificial conditions.
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1) On point 1 we could have a gentleman’s bet: I can guarantee you that I could do this test blind.
2) On the point about principle vs instance, the danger you are running is that you might become a marketing tool rather than truly adding to our knowledge base. Few who are reading what you are writing will appreciate that you are not claiming that the LA fins are better,
3) only that they are better for *you* under these artificial conditions.
1) Genuinely interested - what kind of protocol would you implement to do that ?
2) I take your point but I would think that I have been clear in the data, my interests and my responses here as to what my aims and limitations were. Yes, there are those that will stretch its scope and those that don't understand how to interpret this information. I'm actually likely to put a video together soon for SUPboarder whereby I attempt to explain this better. I've done a few videos for them now and its good professional practise for me if nothing else.
3) Specific, not artificial. This wasn't a lab and I have raced in these kinds of conditions. The key thing now would be to repeat the tests in different waterstates to see what that does. I doubt I'll get a CV of 3% but I'm willing to go to 9 before I'd scrap the methodology and tests.
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There are some interesting protocols for testing different equipment and it's affect on speed. One of the best I have seen is a test that was done on the different MTB wheel sizes, and whether or not they were faster in real world conditions. They used muscle sensors to determine rider effort and how it affected performance: a good way to counter the well-known placebo affect that Area 10 is talking about ("wow, 29" wheels are fast, I am going to ride them that way").
Fins would be far easier to test this way, since they could very easily be tested "blind" with a variety of paddlers, avoiding the placebo affect.
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There are some interesting protocols for testing different equipment and it's affect on speed. One of the best I have seen is a test that was done on the different MTB wheel sizes, and whether or not they were faster in real world conditions. They used muscle sensors to determine rider effort and how it affected performance: a good way to counter the well-known placebo affect that Area 10 is talking about ("wow, 29" wheels are fast, I am going to ride them that way").
Fins would be far easier to test this way, since they could very easily be tested "blind" with a variety of paddlers, avoiding the placebo affect.
I've seen that one. It was interesting but still not immune to placebo completely. Power meters helped for us massively in cycling. When I do aerodynamic testing, that's completely objective but you can still get placebo. You try your best to filter it out with as many runs as you can and a randomised order. What I've found is that with placebo in such cases, its hard to enjoy it consistently so the experiment stats can sometimes pick up that something was off. That's one of the reasons (as an aside) why I nearly always junk my first and last runs when I test anything.
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Nice results. Which LA setup did you use? i.e. which twins and kick.
Small ventral, 9 inch elliptical twins and his standard stinger kicker.
To pick up on an earlier point regarding me wanting it to work, my opinion going into it was that it probably wouldn't (or would be too close to the single to be considered worthwhile). I only say I'll test gear if I'm allowed (without restriction) to publish a negative or a positive result. In this case I would have been fine either way as this is just a hobby and some idle curiosity. If it wasn't faster for me, I'd still say the set up has some merits in certain contexts. I wish I'd had the time to test the ventral on its own with my best single. Maybe next time for that one.
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Make sure you eventually try a "fence" between the twins instead of the single kicker. A very thin, low aspect fin--no foil. You'll probably find another substantial bump in speed.
Like you, I'm not so interested in having a scientific, provable conclusion. If I could find a fin setup that gave me a ten percent advantage that was purely placebo effect I'd be quite happy. I would prefer to actually understand what's going on, but I'm not adamant about it. I don't understand quantum gravity either but I'm willing to hang out in the reality it apparently has generated.
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Do some board [shapes] get a better "boost" than other shapes?
I'm imagining a wide cutt-off tail shape is more it's thing than pintail. Mainly since that's the boards we see them on most.
How small can one go with the fins? As there is so much fin in there can one go pretty small?
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There are some interesting protocols for testing different equipment and it's affect on speed. One of the best I have seen is a test that was done on the different MTB wheel sizes, and whether or not they were faster in real world conditions. They used muscle sensors to determine rider effort and how it affected performance: a good way to counter the well-known placebo affect that Area 10 is talking about ("wow, 29" wheels are fast, I am going to ride them that way").
Fins would be far easier to test this way, since they could very easily be tested "blind" with a variety of paddlers, avoiding the placebo affect.
I've seen that one. It was interesting but still not immune to placebo completely. Power meters helped for us massively in cycling. When I do aerodynamic testing, that's completely objective but you can still get placebo. You try your best to filter it out with as many runs as you can and a randomised order. What I've found is that with placebo in such cases, its hard to enjoy it consistently so the experiment stats can sometimes pick up that something was off. That's one of the reasons (as an aside) why I nearly always junk my first and last runs when I test anything.
I liked the use of muscle sensors to determine if the extra speed was just from extra effort. Very interesting the study found no discernible benefit to running 27.5.
I do believe that the entire flatwater SUP industry is lacking some very key information about fins/speed/drag. I have read a bunch of articles/threads on fins and there seems to be very little consensus on just how measurable the drag of high surface area fins is, or how much benefit there is to having less surface area. It seems like such an easy thing to measure accurately.
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Like you, I'm not so interested in having a scientific, provable conclusion. If I could find a fin setup that gave me a ten percent advantage that was purely placebo effect I'd be quite happy. I would prefer to actually understand what's going on, but I'm not adamant about it. I don't understand quantum gravity either but I'm willing to hang out in the reality it apparently has generated.
Would you be so happy if you read ukgm’s report, then on that basis went out and paid good money to have a LA fun system fitted, only then to discover that it didn’t work for you, and that the “improvement” he reported was all in ukgm’s head? Because that is what might well happen here.
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Like you, I'm not so interested in having a scientific, provable conclusion. If I could find a fin setup that gave me a ten percent advantage that was purely placebo effect I'd be quite happy. I would prefer to actually understand what's going on, but I'm not adamant about it. I don't understand quantum gravity either but I'm willing to hang out in the reality it apparently has generated.
Would you be so happy if you read ukgm’s report, then on that basis went out and paid good money to have a LA fun system fitted, only then to discover that it didn’t work for you, and that the “improvement” he reported was all in ukgm’s head? Because that is what might well happen here.
LOL, That has already happened with a whole board which is why the SUP Industry has slowed down in sales because people were told that boards would do magic and NOTHING!!!!
Your comment about this could of maybe held up 8 years ago when a few people were trying Twins on Raceboards in 2011, then by 2012 a few dozen people were riding and trying Race Twins in Race boards, by 2014 a few hundred people were now riding Twins in Raceboards to now a few THOUSAND people are riding Twins in Raceboards. The majority of these people bought a board that they were told was the MAGIC Board to ride for them that turned out FALSE. But instead of giving up like some did and even bought another board that in some cases were worst they spent the money to convert to Allison Twins and then those boards became their MAGIC Board. That is not a Placebo but a FACT.
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Like you, I'm not so interested in having a scientific, provable conclusion. If I could find a fin setup that gave me a ten percent advantage that was purely placebo effect I'd be quite happy. I would prefer to actually understand what's going on, but I'm not adamant about it. I don't understand quantum gravity either but I'm willing to hang out in the reality it apparently has generated.
Would you be so happy if you read ukgm’s report, then on that basis went out and paid good money to have a LA fun system fitted, only then to discover that it didn’t work for you, and that the “improvement” he reported was all in ukgm’s head? Because that is what might well happen here.
I’d certainly be impressed if I could generate a unconscious placebo that consistently held a 2% data variation over 8 runs. That said, we both know that your opinion is a perfectly valid one to raise so the only thing I can to try and do to counter it is to work my way through my coast down test data and see if the drag of the Allison system is lower than the single. If that is the case, that would give further weight to my findings in this context. If it doesn’t, it falls into the realm of needing to know exactly how the system works (as Ponobill said above) and I’m frankly not qualified to know that. I’d put my hands up at that point and suggest others do their tests and let us know.
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Possible placebo effect is only one issue.
The generalisability of the results is possibly the more serious one.
Both are perfectly addressable.
It will be ironic if you actually find yourself slower on this setup in real race conditions. Could happen - or at least your data cannot counter that suggestion.
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Do some board [shapes] get a better "boost" than other shapes?
I'm imagining a wide cutt-off tail shape is more it's thing than pintail. Mainly since that's the boards we see them on most.
How small can one go with the fins? As there is so much fin in there can one go pretty small?
Square tail with concave will ALWAYS stick with a single fin and not using a 4 fin FACT!
Pintail are the fastest but stability is key, the add of 4 fins allows you now to ride a board taking the pivot point of a single fin out of the situation.
Understanding going smaller in drag and directing water to work for you not reacting against you is key to understanding this concept.
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Well, with the right conditions and weather, I can finally share the results of my testing of the Allison probox system + ventral assist in my 2017 Allstar. I used my standard (and published) testing protocol and used a market leader (and fastest fin I ever tested) as the baseline. I should add that the fins were donated but the install was paid for by me (and undertaken incidentally by SUPUK on here). The graphs shows the result. I'll have to be honest and say I was surprised as I still haven't got the set up to perform quite as I want to and it still felt draggy to me but the numbers don't lie. Larry has great intuition
Thank You Ukgm for taking the time to show in more depth what is happening and being open minded like others here taking the 4 fins to another level like PonoBill who improved on my concept.
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Like you, I'm not so interested in having a scientific, provable conclusion. If I could find a fin setup that gave me a ten percent advantage that was purely placebo effect I'd be quite happy. I would prefer to actually understand what's going on, but I'm not adamant about it. I don't understand quantum gravity either but I'm willing to hang out in the reality it apparently has generated.
Would you be so happy if you read ukgm’s report, then on that basis went out and paid good money to have a LA fun system fitted, only then to discover that it didn’t work for you, and that the “improvement” he reported was all in ukgm’s head? Because that is what might well happen here.
I’d certainly be impressed if I could generate a unconscious placebo that consistently held a 2% data variation over 8 runs. That said, we both know that your opinion is a perfectly valid one to raise so the only thing I can to try and do to counter it is to work my way through my coast down test data and see if the drag of the Allison system is lower than the single. If that is the case, that would give further weight to my findings in this context. If it doesn’t, it falls into the realm of needing to know exactly how the system works (as Ponobill said above) and I’m frankly not qualified to know that. I’d put my hands up at that point and suggest others do their tests and let us know.
You are way overthinking this guys. ukgm test prove beyond reproach that the system works (period, not just for
him) and that it's low drag. If you're not convinced, just change the color insert in your twins and see where it lands
you ukgm, placebo or not. but for it to work properly you need to put in some time for the right configuration.
ukgm is a newbie in the 4 fin department yet his impressive testing skills has only sharpened the results that
few of us here (and many more outside) has came up with in the past.
The main take away here is the low drag, even if ukgm tests did not show any gains in speed (although they did)
when you take this setup to rough water, on the account of stability alone it will translate to faster times not to
mention the ability to go with a narrower board and maintain the ability to put full power in the stroke.
And seriously, enough with the placebo, if I was to call placebo on each and every finding you're generously sharing
with us on the forum, it would skew google search results to show the ZONE in first place under the the search
term "placebo". I'm sure Admin will not take liking to that ;)
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Small ventral, 9 inch elliptical twins and his standard stinger kicker.
When I was still running a Blackfish (big tail, channel) the full Elliptical were my favourite twins among the three. I believe that there are the ones that offer the best release. Regarding kick, for me a light and not very strong paddler, I cannot help feeling that the 6" Stinger is just too much. I should soon receive a new ventral (hollow center) and I am motivated to try it with my Whiplash. I like what Burchas and Larry have been saying about it, specially as I do not paddle in flat water.
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https://www.facebook.com/OlympusBoardShop.USA/videos/1822241097824153/
Requadles what you guys say about 4 fins. Here is a average guy going across the Catalina Channel 22 miles on a 27 wide by 14 ft M&M last month. Beating a better rider on a Starboard by 30 minutes I think. This could of never happened in a Single fin world on a M&M, FACT!!! That is Reality my friends!
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Thank you guys like Bean, Luc and Stoneaxe in believing me when converting their boards and understanding their equipment. You guys rock like many others here that follow me like Speedboard another company that pushes more Allison Race Twins.
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https://www.facebook.com/OlympusBoardShop.USA/videos/1806800732701523/ Unfortunately this board got damaged on the way over to Catalina the day before the Channel Crossing by strong winds and the board got thrown off the rack on the boat. But since repaired by me and back in the water.
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Now we can get into some new stuff. First again I am super Stoked that ukgm took the lead to support what Thousands already knew but not to the level of numbers that some need even when reality proved it already. I may add that ukgm was not positive about the concept like may of you here but intrigued why so many people were converting their boards with good results. Having the Scientific Mind that ukgm has his wheels starting turning and curiosity got the best of him and now we are here a year later confirming the results that I predicted he would have a year ago. I am honored and humbled that the level of interest from the world brought ukgm on board to ask the questions and seek the answers. Mad respect to you my friend for disrupting the herd. Now here is a peak at a new Board Brand coming out of Marina Del Ray LA called Liquid Athlete. This board design is unique which I was honored by not only getting one of the first boards but had design input. The other concept by this board company is that it comes only as a Allison 4 fin with the right fin options. Here is The Sting Ray 12/6 by 30 for open waters and touring at 25-lbs with fins and boxes. https://www.facebook.com/larry.w.allison/videos/10214890656293031/
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Me test riding the Liquid Athlete 12/6 StingRay!
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12/6 StingRay by Liquid Athlete.
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New Infinity Custom Doug Out with Allison Race Twins. Super proud of Dave creating the Movement even from pressure of people laughing at him. But when you know your product it does not matter what the non believers say. The proof is in the ride Mother Nature will dictate the out come. https://www.facebook.com/larry.w.allison/videos/10214896582961194/
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One of my favorite moments was a the Santa Monica Race a few weeks back where Yuval Lavy started at the back of the pack and took first blowing everyone away in his age group of 40 to 49 years old on a 23wide by 14ft Focus running new GTS kick fin with Allison Probox Race Twins. Who said twins are slow, LOL!!!!!!
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It has been a fun last 2 months with the market in a fast change. More to share in a few days another board company coming in to market with Allison 4 fins that you will all find interesting a global brand. Dr Wayne riding the StingRay by Liquid Athlete.
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Just to be clear with everyone, let me state what the specification and limitations of my testing involves.
- 8 randomised runs of each fin set up.
- Performed on smooth flatwater.
- No wind.
- Board was 2017 Starboard Allstar, 14ft in a 24.5 width.
- Each run was approximately 250m long and 1:30 in duration.
- Target velocity was 9kph+ (typically 9.2).
- Data was collected from a SUP Speedcoach and corroborated using iPhone sensor arrays.
- To the best of my knowledge, my test methods I use are the most reliable and robust I've seen. They are based upon published peer reviewed test methods of others (adapted from K1 kayaking) and I have had them published too.
In simple terms this means that any results I have produced here are limited (so far) to the context and boundaries listed above. This doesn't mean the concept will work as well on rougher water, on a different board design or at a different race speed (as well as other limitations). It doesn't mean it wouldn't either - It's purely that I haven't tested for that. That would require further testing and investment in time.
In addition:
-The point of me doing this testing was purely curiosity.
-The fins were donated, but the install I paid for.
- I offered no guarantees on the results to Larry and would share them if good, bad or unclear.
- Placebo may or may not be a factor and it cannot be ruled out entirely. Randomised testing and high data run to run repeatability would partially (but certainly not entirely) mitigate for some of this (as a consistent level of placebo is extremely hard to obtain) but more data is needed. I've mentioned this for succintness but to be honest, if there was one, it would be unconscious as my feelings on the system were generally non-plussed.
- I would use the set up for some, but not all kinds of races based on the limitations above.
- The progression of this data is to retest but in more chaotic water states.
I would ask others don't take the results out of context, nor have an axe to grind. I also encourage others take the time to test and let us know what they find.
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Just to be clear with everyone, let me state what the specification and limitations of my testing involves.
- 8 randomised runs of each fin set up.
- Performed on smooth flatwater.
- No wind.
- Board was 2017 Starboard Allstar, 14ft in a 24.5 width.
- Each run was approximately 250m long and 1:30 in duration.
- Target velocity was 9kph+ (typically 9.2).
- Data was collected from a SUP Speedcoach and corroborated using iPhone sensor arrays.
- To the best of my knowledge, my test methods I use are the most reliable and robust I've seen. They are based upon published peer reviewed test methods of others (adapted from K1 kayaking) and I have had them published too.
In simple terms this means that any results I have produced here are limited (so far) to the context and boundaries listed above. This doesn't mean the concept will work as well on rougher water, on a different board design or at a different race speed (as well as other limitations). It doesn't mean it wouldn't either - It's purely that I haven't tested for that. That would require further testing and investment in time.
In addition:
-The point of me doing this testing was purely curiosity.
-The fins were donated, but the install I paid for.
- I offered no guarantees on the results to Larry and would share them if good, bad or unclear.
- Placebo may or may not be a factor and it cannot be ruled out entirely. Randomised testing and high data run to run repeatability would partially (but certainly not entirely) mitigate for some of this (as a consistent level of placebo is extremely hard to obtain) but more data is needed. I've mentioned this for succintness but to be honest, if there was one, it would be unconscious as my feelings on the system were generally non-plussed.
- I would use the set up for some, but not all kinds of races based on the limitations above.
- The progression of this data is to retest but in more chaotic water states.
I would ask others don't take the results out of context, nor have an axe to grind. I also encourage others take the time to test and let us know what they find. Bear in mind this is approximately 8 hours of work I'm sharing for gratis and for conversation.
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Just to be clear with everyone, let me state what the specification and limitations of my testing involves...
I would ask others don't take the results out of context, nor have an axe to grind. I also encourage others take the time to test and let us know what they find.
ukgm, I don't think anyone questioned your integrity and the quality of data you provide ( well, maybe one
skeptic here did ), not now and not on the other exceptional tests you provided from time to time.
Your latest test just reiterated and corroborated what many of us already knew, tested and shared here and
other places before. You do have a talent to wrap it in a much prettier package which makes it easier to relate to.
As stated before, if nothing else, your test dispute the perceived assumption that LA 4 fin system
creates drag. if you want to test that quickly, follow my previous suggestion and run your test again,
you can be biased as you like in favoring the system but you'll be guarantied to be slower.
Now that we got the drag out of the way, we can discuss the 4 fin VS single fin based on their merits.
Obviously you haven't been following this space for that long, otherwise you would remember that some of
us here already posted similar tests here and other places, different boards, different fins same conclusion.
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I don’t know if the system is lower drag or higher drag to be honest.
The:
1) dynamics of the systems fluid flow
2) the total hydrodynamic drag the system creates
......I would say are different things.
I’ve done a little work with the former but haven’t looked at the latter yet. I’ll be able to provide a fuller picture when I have done. My hypothesis is that the Allison system provides higher levels of drag than a single fin but if you get the set up right (fin size, type and position) that some other factor X outweighs it - in some conditions.
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Burchas, I think you misunderstand my intent here.
I am certainly not suggesting that ukgm is wrong. I am completely open-minded on the issue. In fact, if anything I am ready to be convinced: I installed a 3-fin system on my UL board, and found it a tad faster in flat water than the same design but narrower board that has only one fin. I put this down to better tracking while reducing deeper water drag. Nothing more complex than that.
My points instead relate to the conclusions that we can draw from ukgm’s data. Ukgm has, to his credit, spelt these out. But I know very well that people will probably just ignore these critical caveats and jump to conclusions that are not logically justified. And then science (or more probably in this instance, technology) becomes marketing. This is not ukgm’s fault.
Incidentally, I would like to see ukgm rerun his tests on a course that requires “weaving”, or even a circular course. If you install more fins in a board and so it tracks better and is therefore faster in a straight line, this is pretty unremarkable. But the downside of increased tracking can be problems in cross-wind, and increased drag when not going in a straight line. These downsides can easily outweigh the advantages of increased tracking in real-world conditions.
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On a different note, I am very curious to try the effect of hollow fins for both the central and ventral fins on my Whiplash i.e. Aercor center and Abuelo ventral
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Just to be clear with everyone, let me state what the specification and limitations of my testing involves.
- 8 randomised runs of each fin set up.
- Board was 2017 Starboard Allstar, 14ft in a 24.5 width.
Is it the same board with the different fin setups?
I always wonder how much drag open fin boxes create?
(I used to tape over my FCS sidebite openings if not being used)
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Just to be clear with everyone, let me state what the specification and limitations of my testing involves.
- 8 randomised runs of each fin set up.
- Board was 2017 Starboard Allstar, 14ft in a 24.5 width.
Is it the same board with the different fin setups?
I always wonder how much drag open fin boxes create?
(I used to tape over my FCS sidebite openings if not being used)
Yep, I taped mine up between runs using black electrical tape.
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My points instead relate to the conclusions that we can draw from ukgm’s data. Ukgm has, to his credit, spelt these out. But I know very well that people will probably just ignore these critical caveats and jump to conclusions that are not logically justified. And then science (or more probably in this instance, technology) becomes marketing. This is not ukgm’s fault.
....... and to be fair, both Area 10 and I are in the same industry subject to this same kind of scrutiny daily. For those that don't know, publishing anything in a scientific journal is a arduous and rigorous process designed to make sure that what we say is what we mean and that what we mean is actually what was done. Ultimately, I don't see this kind of probing on here as negative at all and its not something anyone should take personally but moreso as a way of keeping me or this kind of work honest.
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Just to be clear with everyone, let me state what the specification and limitations of my testing involves.
- 8 randomised runs of each fin set up.
- Board was 2017 Starboard Allstar, 14ft in a 24.5 width.
Is it the same board with the different fin setups?
I always wonder how much drag open fin boxes create?
(I used to tape over my FCS sidebite openings if not being used)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDobr6GecMU&feature=share at these slow speeds water does not notice fin box slots until you reach speed great then12 miles a hour and hold it like windsurfing thats double that. Notice the air bubbles from the paddling goes over the fin box.
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Burchas, I think you misunderstand my intent here.
I am certainly not suggesting that ukgm is wrong. I am completely open-minded on the issue. In fact, if anything I am ready to be convinced: I installed a 3-fin system on my UL board, and found it a tad faster in flat water than the same design but narrower board that has only one fin. I put this down to better tracking while reducing deeper water drag. Nothing more complex than that.
My points instead relate to the conclusions that we can draw from ukgm’s data. Ukgm has, to his credit, spelt these out. But I know very well that people will probably just ignore these critical caveats and jump to conclusions that are not logically justified. And then science (or more probably in this instance, technology) becomes marketing. This is not ukgm’s fault.
Incidentally, I would like to see ukgm rerun his tests on a course that requires “weaving”, or even a circular course. If you install more fins in a board and so it tracks better and is therefore faster in a straight line, this is pretty unremarkable. But the downside of increased tracking can be problems in cross-wind, and increased drag when not going in a straight line. These downsides can easily outweigh the advantages of increased tracking in real-world conditions.
WOW!!! Did you say you installed a 3 fin setup. Great my friend would enjoy seeing and helping you get the placement and fin choices right to get the correct end result. Stoked Area-10!
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Here's some of my preliminary data from my hydrodynamic 'coast down' tests. This removes a lot of the placebo concerns as this involves the rate of which the board slows down to rest. I obtained a pretty good data repeatability of these (surprisingly I thought - as a board can wobble a lot at low speeds).
Limitations.
6 runs of each set up.
Smooth glassy water.
Measures the rate of deceleration from a targeted top speed.
Fixed time sample of each decelerating run.
Paddler is 88.9kg.
A data precision of 5% is still very good but its plausible that even with this low level of variation may mean the protocol isn't sensitive enough to detect differences beyond the extreme ones regarding fins. I'd like to try it between boards instead.
I am busy intentionally hazy on some of the specifics here as I'm still working on stuff with this and playing around with the protocol.
The results showed that the Allison system had a fractionally higher level of likely drag (but its so small, its not considered statistically significant). I would argue that an extra level of drag of 3cm per second may still be seen as a lot but the margin of error (illustrated using standard deviation with error bars here in the graph) swamps this. In my case (and my case alone !) this might suggest to me that any benefits of the 4 fin system on flatwater are purely to do with how it may improve balance (reducing roll induced drag) and possibly tracking (yaw based efficiency - as per Area 10's thoughts). This said, this is using a relatively standard set up - if I'd tried Ponobills 'fence' set up or gone for a really small racing fin like a Black Project Tiger, this might have been very different.
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Just for good measures, take single fin with the same SQI area of the 4 fins combined, (not sure
it exist but take the largest you can find) and compare deceleration.
Going the other way around trying to go down to the smallest 4 fin setup may give you
same or better deceleration but I suspect it won't give you better speeds on your board.
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Just for good measures, take single fin with the same SQI area of the 4 fins combined, (not sure
it exist but take the largest you can find) and compare deceleration.
Going the other way around trying to go down to the smallest 4 fin setup may give you
same or better deceleration but I suspect it won't give you better speeds on your board.
Thanks for the useful idea. I'm more likely to try something with a likely larger difference between them first and recheck my testing protocol. Probably boards first and then go from there.
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You could also "invert" ( from a zero to a 8 degree) the insert for the twins thus putting the twins as far as possible from vertical and creating a lot more drag for the same setup and compare the two to check the margin of error.
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For bar charts, the numerical axis (often the y axis) must start at zero. Otherwise you are distorting.
for example:
https://guides.library.duke.edu/datavis/topten
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For bar charts, the numerical axis (often the y axis) must start at zero. Otherwise you are distorting.
for example:
https://guides.library.duke.edu/datavis/topten
That’s wrong. It doesn’t always make sense to start at zero if you’re trying to stress other aspects of the data such as overlapping (or the raw value) of error bars which might be a small percentage of the absolute value (in this case trying to demonstrate that the precision is very good).
It’s just a question of designing the bar chart intelligently with what you trying to show. My graph also states the P value in this case to minimise such concerns so that nothing is excluded and no bias is being promoted.
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Playfair my friend.
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Playfair my friend.
As I say, you're wrong on this and I've given you the reasons why behind the decisions. The wording on the graph clearly states "no significant difference between them" in large letters. I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest but if you're trying to infer something more disingenuous is going on, actually say so and we can debate it. I don't like the tone with the reply you've given.
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UKGM, I think you and Yugi are writing about two different things. From a data perspective, starting Y at an arbitrary value to provide clear visualization of the difference is proper, though it magnifies the difference. From a marketing perspective setting the origin at 0 minimizes the visual impact of the small difference. One of the many ways sleazy marketers like me lie with data. People will automatically look at the bar chart and see that the multi-fin set drags "much more" even with the caveat of the small P value (which no audience other than academic would immediately grasp or correctly interpret).
Yugi, graphical data representation is inherently "dishonest". If the graph started at 0 and used larger Y intervals the difference in the resultant stubby bars would be imperceptible. You could argue either side of that issue, it's not set in stone and not really a fairness issue, no matter what Duke U says. It's simply a question of what the author wants to display. In this case, the fact that the test is sensitive enough to repeatably show small variations.
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All this debating cracks me up because it shows that most don't even know how a paddleboard moves thru water and what the function of a fin is and does, LOL but yet argue points that make no sense in the real world of Mother Nature. The last few days I have received some PMs from people sending me information about what some companies are posting about Fin Function and Performance on how to pick the right fin, LOL! Sometimes it's best not to say anything then posting Koolaid that the consumers are smarter then the Manufacturing sector. I experienced the same in Windsurfing but yet the best riders in the world later rode my fins, proof is in the Pudding, LOL!
Thank you Ukgm, Ponobill, Bean, Luc, Burchas, Brodog and Stoneaxe to name a few that stepped up to Infinity and Beyond.
Thank you Ukgm for doing the work of showing what we simple people already experience. Yes since a year ago I have created a few new designs that increase the speed numbers more so because of the request from the consumers and some pros that are looking and now learning the advantage of multiple fins. Yes in simple terms, In the World of Standup riding a Single Fin which is a Pivot point along with a balancing act with a small range of reaction that tires you out. Or a multiple fin set-up which takes the balancing act out with a larger range of reaction and aiding in other aspects to better your water experience.
Yes it is a changing world for sure from 8 years ago since I started this push of multiple fins to now where the board designs scream Multiple fins even more so because the boards are higher on water putting the fin dynamics more in play from the boards of yesterday that were water subs that you almost didn't need a fin, LOL!
I am here to help people push their experience on the water which is my Passion which I am blessed to do myself. So if a old guy like me can ride a board 23 wide it tells you I am not a Travis Grant for sure but it's the equipment, lol!
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That sounds interesting. But here’s a couple of extra points:
1. Of course it would be possible to do the test with the paddlers blind to the fin setup. I’ve done experiments with much harder manipulations than that!
2. The principle you are trying to establish, surely, is whether the LA system is better than a single fin? .....
3. With fins, what aids you in one situation can hinder you in another. So just because a setup is faster in windless flat water when you are paddling alone does not mean it will be faster in real race conditions, or in the sea, etc. So ideally you’d test the setups with a variety of paddlers in a variety of conditions.
4. It is tough to test fins scientifically in such a way that the results are more than just marketing. .....
1. ..... Plus, as I say, even if you did, the answer needs to be specific to a paddler, not a sample. The latter is relevant for a manufacturers claims but the former more relevant for a paddlers performance needs.
2. No, it's to see whether its better for me and me alone. The benefits to a broader cross section aren't my concern and I don't need the benefits of penalties to be averaged out across a sample. That's not what I set out to prove. .....
3. Agreed and I have not claimed otherwise. .....
4. Yep, agreed. .....
The bottom line is would I use the Allison set up in my races, yes, some. Would I for all of them ? - no but gaining the objective understanding to make this decision is what I'm doing here. Having been asked to read and comment on both Starboards and Fanatics 2019 catalogues recently, I just can't bear any more pseudo science bullcrap.
Which races would you use that setup for and how would you come to that determination?
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That sounds interesting. But here’s a couple of extra points:
1. Of course it would be possible to do the test with the paddlers blind to the fin setup. I’ve done experiments with much harder manipulations than that!
2. The principle you are trying to establish, surely, is whether the LA system is better than a single fin? .....
3. With fins, what aids you in one situation can hinder you in another. So just because a setup is faster in windless flat water when you are paddling alone does not mean it will be faster in real race conditions, or in the sea, etc. So ideally you’d test the setups with a variety of paddlers in a variety of conditions.
4. It is tough to test fins scientifically in such a way that the results are more than just marketing. .....
1. ..... Plus, as I say, even if you did, the answer needs to be specific to a paddler, not a sample. The latter is relevant for a manufacturers claims but the former more relevant for a paddlers performance needs.
2. No, it's to see whether its better for me and me alone. The benefits to a broader cross section aren't my concern and I don't need the benefits of penalties to be averaged out across a sample. That's not what I set out to prove. .....
3. Agreed and I have not claimed otherwise. .....
4. Yep, agreed. .....
The bottom line is would I use the Allison set up in my races, yes, some. Would I for all of them ? - no but gaining the objective understanding to make this decision is what I'm doing here. Having been asked to read and comment on both Starboards and Fanatics 2019 catalogues recently, I just can't bear any more pseudo science bullcrap.
Which races would you use that setup for and how would you come to that determination?
For now, I would use the set up for the conditions I tested in which would be uncomplicated flatwater events. I haven't got the information or the data to know if this would be useful in other water states. I like to look at this testing as a stepping stone. Larry's intuition, as good as it is, won't beat a computer CFD package as an optimisation method though and I personally believe that further refinement using such tools could lead to further gains using the concept. I haven't got the time for that so I'm keeping things simple for now.
I'm purely interested in what can this do for me. To that end, my next port of call is to try it in slightly rougher conditions but I'd also like to try the ventral on its own with something like a Black Project Tiger on the back (whose aspect ration is optimised by computer for the speeds I'm personally racing at) to pick up on Area 10's point about whether the roll and yaw stability is where most of the gains are coming from. In some ways, it's like a process of elimination. I may well be shopping for my next board next month and I'd like to know how many fins its going to have !
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I'd also like to try the ventral on its own with something like a Black Project Tiger on the back to pick up on Area 10's point about whether the roll and yaw stability is where most of the gains are coming from. In some ways, it's like a process of elimination.
Isolating the effect of the twins would be a great demonstration in both flat and choppy water.
I have run the ventral with the 6"Stinger (flat) or the 7" Stinger (choppy) only on my Whiplash and was quite please.
It looks like in September I could receive a Stealth kick = 4" deep and plan to run the full Stealth kick and twins on flat water.
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You can do some simple instrumentation that might give you useful data. Most important is speed changes. I don't really mean acceleration, which is easy to measure, but the curve of instantaneous speed, which is a trifle harder. I used an Eagle Tree systems datalogger--the new version is $69--and a free-spinning propeller that triggered a hall-effect sensor 24 times per shaft rotation. Theoretically you could use GPS and accelerometers to do the same thing, but I found both the sample frequency and sensitivity obscured information I wanted to see.
Specifically, I wanted to see the acceleration curve, the peak speed, and the deceleration curve. I was testing paddles and stroke, but if I wanted to see what a set or fins were doing I'd want to see the same data. I think some fins let a paddler reach a higher speed because they do a better job of converting off-center vectored thrust into centerline acceleration. But if they do that at the expense of a lot of drag, or added turbulence at higher velocity, then the speed curve will be shaped differently and the area under the curve will be different. Average distance traveled will be different.
Using my primitive Paddle Pod I realized that the speed curve is complex and there's no such thing as glide. Just a curve for acceleration, a peak speed, and deceleration. Acceleration in the first few inches of the stroke is rapid, but it tails off before maximum speed is reached. Deceleration is also rapid as soon as the stroke ends, and tails off more slowly as speed drops. If there is any such thing as glide it happens only when a paddler strokes with such a slow cadence that the board almost comes to a stop.
The curve is different for high vs. low cadence--the high acceleration in the beginning of the stroke does not occur since the blade speed and the board speed ate more closely matched.
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So I am hoping to try on the low volume Whiplash:
1) Abuelo ventral with Aercor centre (soon)
2) Stealth kick and twins (should be able to receive a Stealth kick from a generous Zoner in September)
I usually do not have a problem with tracking. For me it is all about quartering and side chop while maintaining speed and a strong stroke.
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Aeorcor works as well or better on my old Blackfish for downwinders. Doesn't seem fast though for flatwater. Too much tail wagging. Maybe if I cleaned up my stroke...
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Doesn't seem fast though for flatwater. Too much tail wagging.
I usually do not have a problem with tracking. For me it is all about quartering and side chop while maintaining speed and a "strong" stroke.
I will have to see the combination as the Aercor on its own might not work on flat but with the ventral, I am curious.
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1) Theoretically you could use GPS and accelerometers to do the same thing, but I found both the sample frequency and sensitivity obscured information I wanted to see.
2) Specifically, I wanted to see the acceleration curve, the peak speed, and the deceleration curve. I was testing paddles and stroke, but if I wanted to see what a set or fins were doing I'd want to see the same data.
3) I think some fins let a paddler reach a higher speed because they do a better job of converting off-center vectored thrust into centerline acceleration. But if they do that at the expense of a lot of drag, or added turbulence at higher velocity, then the speed curve will be shaped differently and the area under the curve will be different.
4) Using my primitive Paddle Pod I realized that the speed curve is complex and there's no such thing as glide. Just a curve for acceleration, a peak speed, and deceleration. Acceleration in the first few inches of the stroke is rapid, but it tails off before maximum speed is reached.
5) Deceleration is also rapid as soon as the stroke ends, and tails off more slowly as speed drops. If there is any such thing as glide it happens only when a paddler strokes with such a slow cadence that the board almost comes to a stop.
6) The curve is different for high vs. low cadence--the high acceleration in the beginning of the stroke does not occur since the blade speed and the board speed ate more closely matched.
1) You'd be amazed as how good the humble iPhone is for this too. I can get data sampling from using its built in sensors at 200Hz+. For the stuff I did here, I didn't go above 50Hz for now. The raw data file is frankly enormous.
2) The 'rowinginmotion' app spent a lot of time trumpeting this importance for rowing too. I didn't use this app here but i have done before. I actually prefer the raw data CSV file from an iPhone as it gives me 30 different metrics to drill into.
3) I agree completely. I have suspicions that the fluid management and drag are not always consistent with each other when comparing two fins. Deceleration is non-linear and its why my testing is aligned to speed ranges that I would personally race at for around 60-90 minutes. If people were selecting equipment for longer or shorter racing distances, I would suggest they change their tests accordingly.
4) Larry Cain had a nice article on his old blog page about this when he borrowed some tech from his C1 coaching day job to try it with a SUP board (and compared it to Jim Terrell). It's about profiling when comparing athletes in general and relative comparisons when optimising an athlete in particular. Put simply, I've had a few friends ask me what's fastest but all I can tell them is 'it depends'.....
5) Yep, I agree. My profile is more akin to Larry's than more of a pure sprinter like Terrell. Interestingly, I see similar characteristics in my cycling too which suggests how important physiological profiling and biomechanics are when you're trying to take an athlete and make them faster (and then how unique that is in comparison to another).
6) Yep, the Terrell vs Cain blog article nicely illustrated this (if you haven't seen it yet).
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Here is a recent conversion done from a Probox Tech Installer in Washington. Thought I would share the review from the owner of this board. THese are customers that seek me out when they want to better their water experience.
Marcus Chiu
Marcus Chiu · Friends with Sup Race Fins and 5 others
I tried my new fin setup, first with the Dolphin Keel and Ventral, then ProBox twin and Ventral.
Dolphin Keel was better than stock fin for stability, but the ProBox twin was way more stable and tracked like it was in rails.
I felt more confident and was able to focus more on paddling than keeping my balance with a faster top speed.
I look forward to putting more time on the water with this new setup.
Thanks Sean Thomas / Echo Composite for the install.🤙
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Same board showing Box placement from stock placement.
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Hey Larry, have I been installing my boxes backwards? ;D ;D ;D
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Hey Larry, have I been installing my boxes backwards? ;D ;D ;D
Bean if the fin sets in a concave which is Rare in this case or on a flat then screws face the inside to allow the inner changeable Probox Cant bringing the fin vertical.
Notice you see more of side of the fin with the Cant in this picture, that is what water sees which slows you down.
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Hey Larry, have I been installing my boxes backwards? ;D ;D ;D
When you have "V" in the bottom or flat then screws are to the outside allowing the Probox inner changeable inserts to bring the fin Vertical like shown in this picture. Notice you see NO side of the fin looking down in this picture which is why water does not react to the flow from nose to tail.
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Hey Larry, have I been installing my boxes backwards? ;D ;D ;D
In this picture the same fin is put in like a SURFBOARD setup flat side in. Notice the Toe in front reacts with the water flow coming from nose to tail. This is all wrong in a Probox Race Twin World.
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Larry W. Allison
40 mins ·
Since the Explanation Videos about Allison Probox Race Twins a few weeks back by Paddlesurf Warehouse started. Then the results of Allison Probox Race Twin tests verses a Single Sup Fin from Doctor Bryce Dyer, PhD in Sports Technology / Senior Lecturer at Bournemouth University confirming what alot of us already learned and experienced in the last 8 years it has been crazy in LA's world. So I thought it's time to get in depth what goes on in a Probox Race Twin World with the overwhelming calls and emails from consumers and other board brands coming into market using the Allison Probox Race Twin Concept.
Here in picture 1: I created a lay-out diagram showing what I have learned that Allison Race Twins are doing. Using a Starboard All-star as a example.
First off notice looking down over the Rail Twin Fin that the rail side of the fin which is flat runs parallel to the center fin. This is so the fin does not interfere with the water flow coming from the nose to tail. The Twin Fins also creates a water snake that gives better release over a Single Fin on a Square tail board that sticks to the water.
Now looking at the inside of the Rail Twin Fin, notice the foil (curved inside surface) front edge where the Red Arrow is pointing. The front edge of the fin is piercing the water from a small point to back 40 percent to the widest point of a Quarter Inch thickness fin tapering off for release This preforms one of the tasks of the Twin Fins in directing water flow to the center of the Board's tail.
The other major task of the Twin Fin is that it stabilizes the board wobble from rail to rail especially in Narrow Higher Volume Boards and aids in bringing the board back to center instead of throwing the paddler off the board. Which is a most common event to happen to a Paddler from a balancing Act of riding A Single Fin.
Another task of the Twin Fin is taking the pivot point out of the tail which minimizes the zig zag effect ( yawing) and aids in better tracking which translates to faster speed. Along with a easier experience in pivot turns.
Keep following as I add more information about the function of Allison Probox Race Twins.
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Larry W. Allison
5 mins via Instagram ·
Now here in Picture 2 I will explain and show you the negative effects of installing your Allison Race Twins the "WRONG" way compared to the "RIGHT" way in Picture 1.
The main thing to understand here in Picture 2 is how you see more of the inside of the Twin Fin. Along with notice the top of the Twin Fin how close it is to the rail line of the board tilted out (which is a term we call CANT). This is one of the biggest mistakes people make in understanding multiple fins being reactive.
What I mean by reactive is, looking at Picture number 1 with the Twin Fin in a Vertical position with the flat side out you hardly notice the fin in the picture. Then looking at Picture number 2 with the Twin Fins tilted (CANTED) out still with the flat side out you can clearly see alot of fin, which means water recognizes that also. Now your board feels like you are towing a Anchor.
This is also a great feature in using Probox Finsystems which allows you to set your fins in multiple tilts (CANT) to best preform in the right position by a patented interchangeable CANT insert.
In Picture 3 I will show and explain the same Probox Twin Fins in a Surfboard position which is even a more common mistake. This really kills the drive and glide of a Sup Board of any style.
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Larry W. Allison
4 mins via Instagram ·
Here in Picture 3 and final post, the Twin Fins are set the same as a Surfboard would be used with the flat side facing in.
Notice the Twin Fin is vertical but look at the front Red Arrow pointing to the leading edge of the point of the fin facing inward which becomes reactive with water that now hits the outside of the front of the fin toward the the rail. Water moving from nose to tail will hit the outside acting like you are towing a Anchor even more then the Negative feel of CANTED fin position.
Hope these 3 pictures clear up any misunderstanding of the function of Allison Probox Race Twins which are again NOT LIKE A SURFBOARD.
Please feel free to ask any questions.
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Great explanation Larry, you are a true guru!
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Great explanation Larry, you are a true guru!
Thank you Bean, https://www.instagram.com/p/BlvTuJgHHNv/?taken-by=lafins
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Larry, have you been hired by Starboard? ;D Everything I've seen from you recently are Starboards. At this rate, most Starboards on the west coast will be 4 fins.
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Probably because the allstar is tippy and you the 4 fins to make it go fast and stable and did I guess that right?
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Probably because the allstar is tippy and you the 4 fins to make it go fast and stable and did I guess that right?
Yes my friend, Mahalo
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Probably because the allstar is tippy and you the 4 fins to make it go fast and stable and did I guess that right?
Allstar is not a tippy board quite the opposite. Well, unless you are 225+ on 22.5"wide - then anything will be tippy.
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Probably because the allstar is tippy and you the 4 fins to make it go fast and stable and did I guess that right?
Allstar is not a tippy board quite the opposite. Well, unless you are 225+ on 22.5"wide - then anything will be tippy.
Mostly 24.5 wide with a few 23.5 wide my friend. Mahalo